A Week of Terrible Trades: Luka to the Lakers and Trump's Tariff Tantrum

Beleh, Dylan, Ben, and Max break down the shocking trade that sent Luka Dončić to the Lakers. They kick things off with their real-time reactions to the news and debate whether this marks the start of the post-LeBron era in LA (00:54). The discussion moves to the trade’s ripple effects around the league, including what went wrong for the Mavericks (04:28), potential locker room tensions between LeBron and AD (06:12), and predictions for the Lakers’ next moves before the deadline (11:33).

The crew also dives into other major NBA trade rumors, from the Warriors’ interest in Kevin Durant and Zion Williamson (12:43) to the uncertainty around Jimmy Butler’s future (16:20) and Brandon Ingram’s potential landing spots (18:26).

Switching to politics, they analyze Trump’s new tariff plan, breaking down why it’s economically flawed and how it could backfire on American consumers (19:48). They explore the political motivations behind the move, the impact on U.S. trade relations, and the broader lessons for Democrats on messaging and risk-taking in politics (38:54).

Follow Beleh ⁠@Btoma15⁠, Ben ⁠@BenBartlettt⁠, Max ⁠@MaxLevin⁠, and Brogressive Podcast ⁠@BrogressivePod⁠ on Twitter/X.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Hey guys, welcome to a new episode of the Progressive
Podcast. You have the full host here.
I'm belay. Ben, you want to introduce
yourself? Ben, I'm here, I'm back after
missing a few episodes. Excited to be back.
If you've been listening this long, you know Max Levin.
Sadly enough, you've had to listen to my voice quite a
while. So.
Yeah, I'm here. Glad to be here.

(00:28):
What up? What up boys?
What's up guys? Excited to be here.
I hope you guys did watch our last episode with Jack.
Do you want to say huge thank you to Jack?
I mean, thank you for coming on and Max and I had a great
conversation with you. We did talk about doing like a
50 day overview of the Trump administration.
So look forward to doing that. And check out Jack's channel.
We have it linked on our other podcasts we posted.

(00:49):
But yeah, I mean, some big news occurred last night
approximately at like what, 952 PMI was on the phone with one of
my friends who's a huge Lakers fan, and I saw the notification
by shams and instantly I was like, no way.
This is a, you know, like those,you know, like this NBA Central
account or that those other likefake Twitter at like basketball
news accounts. Thank you Elon for verifying all

(01:12):
of them and making it way more confusing.
And so I thought it was, I thought like it was a fake tweet
by Shams. And all of a sudden I click on
I'm like, holy shit, this is real.
We just got Luca. I start screaming.
My roommate who's like a Clippers fan, I go into his room
and just start like shitting on him.
I said, ha ha, bitch, like we got Luca.
Who the fuck do you guys? Have you guys lost Shay Fucking
losers. Kawhi doesn't play and he goes,

(01:32):
what? You guys got who?
I'm like Luca, he goes no fucking way.
And he searched it up and then he just like screaming and I'm
like screaming out of joy. And then our neighbors across
are like yelling at us because we're too loud.
When did you guys figure out it was real?
It took me like, I don't know, II kind of thought it was real
initially. I didn't believe everyone
thinking he was. He was.
I clicked on the tweet because Ihave his notifications on.
Instantly saw it was real, started screaming.

(01:54):
I was, I there was a bunch of guys drinking at the house
because they were about to go toan event and one of them was in
my room and he was just like hanging out.
Whatever. He's he's dressed up in a suit
and he's like shit faced and he's, he looks at this phone.
He's like, holy shit, holy shit,Luca Luca to the Lakers.
And I just get up and start screaming and jumping around
because this is, this is like Christmas, basically.

(02:16):
I. Think it's so funny because like
this is going to go down as likethe Lakers fan like 911 of like
where were you when you got Luca?
You know what I mean? Like my roommate was out in our
living room, right? He has like his laptop open.
He has his phone open, has like the like a YouTube stream of it
live. And he's like sitting there and
he's like the whole house kind of goes quiet.
Like some sit there. Like, I don't know if they made
dinner shit and you're just here.
Holy shit. And he like jumps up out of the
chair and I was like, same. This is like our.

(02:39):
I, I, I instantly turned on ESPNand I remember like, 'cause
people were debating if he was hacked or not.
And it was, they were still playing some random college
basketball game and there was ESPN 2 I switched to and they
like right before they cut to commercial, the announcer was
like, oh, apparently big news. And that, that made me realize
it was real. But I'm still in shock, I think.

(03:00):
I think. Overall, a lot of people are
sitting on the Mavs and I understand it kind of, you know,
because. They made a play so they they
trade someone so bad that if youpropose this in like in your
league you would get laughed at.2K someone said this is the type
of trade I would do on like 2 Ki.
Think Ben said that, but. But you can I do I tried it in
2K the the fucking Mavs say likewe value Luca very highly.

(03:22):
Would take something really convincing.
We would never do this. Well, I think that, like,
someone put it this way and thismade a lot of sense to me.
The Lakers basically traded traded like Lonzo Ball, Brandon
Ingram and a first round pick for a from for a championship
and Luca. Yeah, that's The thing is people
it it became a big debate whether the AD trade was worth

(03:43):
it. If who won the AD trade?
Like they got a championship outof it, but was it worth it?
They gave up all these parts. And now we have this 25 year old
who arguably isn't even in in his peak yet.
I mean in itself because it I one of you guys said this in our
group chat and was like, this iswhat happens when liberal Mark
Cuban sells off the the majorityof the team to a conservative.
Low IQ conservative owners unfortunately to.

(04:06):
The thing where it was like, this is Trump's like master plan
to like fuck over Mark Cuban. Oh, that is kind of funny, the
Adelson. 'S buddy actually.
Well, what do you guys make of all the conspiracies around it
with the Adelson's and with themit like, do you think it's just
one GM had a shitty idea and went through with it or do you
think there's like something more nefarious like at work

(04:27):
here? Bottom silver and his shiny head
is cooking something up behind closed doors.
I don't know, I think this was really just Niko, whatever his
name is. The maps GM being a dumbass and
being like there was there. I mean everyone was saying like
there has to be more internal pressure than just the fact that
Luca was out of shape 'cause like he is like the future.

(04:47):
He is top three right now. I think somebody was saying like
out of the all the tradable assets right now, the only
people who are more untradable than him are like Nikola Yokich
and like who else? Like not even Giannis.
Is just untradable saying. Yeah, it's probably SGA, but
that's it, Yeah. Who the Clippers could have had
and I remind my roommate that every single day they could have
kept him. Yeah, for a wash up Paul George,

(05:09):
who's too old to to suit. Up well on the six years the
Jazz, the Jazz were also involved in the straight.
I read something today that the Jazz didn't even know that Luca
was in was going to the Lakers until it was too late.
Because the Celtics fan Danny Ainge wouldn't have wanted to do
it if if he knew how much he washelping the Lakers.
Yeah, probably not. Well, I mean, they are.
They are. Their goal is to tank this year.

(05:31):
And yeah, I think the Jazz got away dirty with this, too
because they're just sneaking, sneaking and vacuuming up all
these second around picks and all these different trades.
And I mean, Jalen Hochefino alsois probably going to be traded
at some point soon. It would be nice to get the Jazz
center what's his name for the Lakers to complete this roster,
But I don't know if. Walker has to.
Forge it. Yeah.

(05:52):
There you go. I don't know if that's going to
happen before February 6th. We'll see.
What do we What do you think about the Go ahead.
I was, well, I. Do think the next move is is a
Center for the Lakers they need.They already didn't have a
center that was good enough withAD on the team.
Cuz he won. Jackson Hayes isn't going to
carry you guys. No, really not.
No. I'll cry myself to sleep if he
does, we'll take him. What?

(06:12):
Do you guys think about the rumors between AD and LeBron and
LeBron shut them down pretty quickly about their
relationship? Kind of.
Deteriorating. My first thought was that I
believed that LeBron didn't knowabout the trade.
I still think I believe that. You think, but I didn't know at
all. Well, Bob, my first thought when
I heard that was like, Oh well, 100% Lebrons next.
They're moving into the new era.Lebrons going to join Curry,

(06:34):
they're going to do it. And woke up the next morning to
that not being the case. But yeah, I I think I do believe
it. I think, I think I am fully no
conspiracy on this. I've heard, I've heard a couple
crazy conspiracies. Yeah, the NBA, Adam Silver did
it. I don't see that happening.
He did it for LA guys. Yeah, Mark Cuban sold The
Mavericks to the to the Adelson's, and their whole plan

(06:56):
is to rebuild the stadium in Dallas with a casino 'cause
they're a big casino magnets. And I heard this theory that
apparently the Texas Legislature, there's a bill and
they've been lobbying the shit out of them to legalize gambling
in the state so they can build their new arena.
And it hasn't been working. And apparently their only
leverage is threatening to move to Vegas.
And so people are suggesting that this move was a way to

(07:20):
like. Kind of signal the team.
They're not. They're not playing around.
Well, or to signal like, oh, this team's gonna be shitty in
two years. Like maybe it's gonna be a more
realistic threat to move to Vegas.
I don't think I believe that. I think the expansion team's
gonna be Vegas. And yeah, I, I think there's no
conspiracy. I think it's just one owner
thought he was cooking and, and honestly, I mean, it's, it's
probably a bad move, but who knows Luca better than them?

(07:42):
It does make weird. Mavs Championship contenders
instantly. Well, I mean, they went to the
Championship last year. I think they are.
Championship, yeah, I think they're champion.
I, I think it it does, it helps them in the short term.
I think Lakers definitely long term, I think short you.
Think it helps them in the shortterm though.
You think The Mavericks are a better team with AD this year
than Luca? Well, I mean, Luca wasn't even
playing and there were concerns about like Luca's, you know,

(08:03):
physical well-being. And about him, he he weighed
like he weighs like 270 lbs. I don't know if that's true.
That's what my roommate told me.He didn't look great.
Picture a guard for a guard that's really big and then you
guys see the in and out account like tweeted.
The fake in and out account tweeted.
Oh, welcome to LA Luca. Like.
Great burgers here, a lot betterthan a Whataburger.
And then like a Laker fan tweeted at him and was like,

(08:25):
please do not introduce Luca to more fast food.
This is not the time. But like, the Mavs didn't have
concerns about his like, physical well-being, his weight.
He's already like, I think the heaviest scarred or one of the
heaviest scars. I think the only thing that
makes sense to me more than the weight stuff is that it was
alcohol related. That's I, that's kind.

(08:46):
And maybe I'm basing that stupidly off the like silly clip
of them taking the beer away from him last year, but that's
kind of the only thing that makes sense to me.
What like maybe they're so concerned about the food and
stuff, but that would that wouldtrack as like something they
feel like isn't fixable and is going to be even more of a
problem in the years to come. But.
He is European, so I mean it. It does run in his blood to be

(09:07):
an alcoholic, I'm sure. But who gives a shit?
Like I was listening to the Rasoola podcast he had a great
line that he was saying like I don't give a shit if he's
walking up the court smoking cigs like while he's dribbling
the ball up like he's Luca. Give him a Max who cares?
I think if anyone could fix this, it it's LeBron.
Like I I think having LeBron as a teammate just elevates you so
much. Yeah, we agree, but it's.

(09:29):
But one year, 2 years more maybe.
Like I mean, maybe you can change him but.
I think Luca is the the face of the franchise after LeBron
either leaves, retires or he might stick around for another
like a couple years. I feel a step.
Earlier you really think he's? Going to take up like that.
I mean like LeBron status, like really like, I mean, come on.
Oh, I'd go a step further I think this is already This is

(09:52):
Luca's team. This is no longer Lebron's team
100%. This is a team that is built
around Luca. This is the identity of Luca.
This is 100%. Like there was questions if it's
AD or Lebron's team. Anyway, this is Lucas team 100%.
I think it's it's, it might be Lucas team.
We kind of have to just wait andsee because he's injured right
now, right? Do you does is there a timeline
about when he's coming back? It doesn't.

(10:12):
I've heard it the next. Two weeks, it doesn't matter if
he's injured or not to say whether or not it's his team
because LeBron is out the door in two years.
He didn't know about the trade. And like, if Brian Windhurst is
on ESPN saying that it's not Le Brons team anymore, then it's
not Le Brons team anymore. If you have somebody who's
tossing those lines around and it's like Lucas is the face of
this franchise and the Lakers are bought all in it into that,

(10:34):
then I would believe that. I'm just a layperson.
I'm just somebody who spends toomuch time following the Lakers
so. Well, I remember when I think a
couple episodes ago, Dylan, we were talking about, we're
talking about the Lakers and their outlook for the next
couple years, like whether they should tank or go all in or just
stay in the middle. And we were saying at the time,
like Lakers shouldn't worry about going all in because even

(10:56):
if they have no draft picks likefive years from now, I think we
even said maybe Luca decides he wants to go to LA or something.
Like, and it's true. I mean, this case it wasn't a
free agent, obviously, but like they're the Lakers and shit
falls in their hands. And obviously that's what
everyone's been complaining about.
Lucas from Slovakia. Slovenia.
Slovenia is. It something.
Like that from Slovakia, Slovenia, Well, Eastern

(11:18):
Europeans, more Eastern Europeans in LA.
We love that we have Max already.
Bring out some more Ukrainians. Lakers fans of you, but how are
you guys feeling about the outlook next couple of years?
You feel a lot better. I think there were some question
marks before of what is the postLeBron era I mean.
It's kind of hard to be like, ohman, this like sucks.
You know what? I.
Mean like it's kind of the. Steal of a lifetime.
You're like, I feel like we should just pretend to be

(11:39):
humble. Be like, oh, you know, I, I
don't know guys, I might have been like, just don't, don't rub
your face. Everyone should fuck up and just
accept it. Like don't, don't say anything.
You know what I mean? Do you guys have any concerns?
Like does any party worry without a big man?
Like maybe AD was a huge part ofthis team.
Maybe, maybe there's something there Like why were they willing
to trade him? This year is it's very
questionable. I mean, it depends on Lucas

(12:01):
injury and like how how well he's going to play coming back
from an injury. It doesn't seem like it's very
major, like a cap strain and A and then what, an ankles brain
or something. Like that.
I'm getting Kevin Durant flashbacks, though.
He's 25, OK, He's not. He's not Kevin Durant's age on
the Warriors. A breaking news some level.
See if it turns into anything. I just got a notification on my

(12:22):
phone from Chris Mannix of Sports Illustrated.
Quote The Warriors are indeed serious about reuniting with
Kevin Durant, sources told Sports Illustrated.
And with with efforts to acquireJimmy Butler stalled for the
Suns, rival executives believe the Suns are strongly
considering trading Durant before the deadline.

(12:43):
What, what reality are we livingin?
Living in what time then is this?
Yeah, the Laker KD goes back to the timeline is 2017 apparently.
That's yeah, I guess so. And Luka Doncic was drafted
third overall by the Lakers. Like what is?
What is going on? Well, so this is this is
interesting because it means that last part means that

(13:03):
basically they were going to make the deal for Jimmy Butler
with the sons for Bradley Beal and Bradley Beal has the no
trade contract and simply doesn't want to move his family.
And that's that's it. Like that's all that it came
down to, which is pretty crazy. I think, I think even if they
get Katie, I think they would have to give up an arm and a leg
for him and it would probably beWiggins, Kaminga and a pick.

(13:24):
Yeah, and with with a very shallow Warriors team, you can't
afford that. Katie also won't bring enough to
like, actually put you in good enough contention.
He is. OK, it wouldn't move me.
I would be excited my my dream one that I also just saw on
notification. Apparently Warriors are, as of a
couple minutes ago, are seriously pursuing Zion
Williamson of Pelicans. I saw that too, yeah.

(13:46):
That moves me a little bit more because you could make that deal
without giving up Andrew Wigginsbecause the contract's a lot
smaller. And if you end up with Andrew
Wiggins and Zion on your team, with Curry and Draymond, I think
that that's a very interesting team for years to come.
Right. Well, to be fair, they might be
looking at Zion Williamson, but the something that I saw was
that the Warriors had reached out about every single All Star

(14:08):
player in I. Saw that too.
No, it's so funny. I'm just.
Looking for something like. And the Warriors fan, Anthony
Slater is the Warriors B reporter for the Athletic.
He literally spit out a tweet that the Warriors are quote,
desperate. And the Warriors fan literally 2
weeks ago, Steph Curry gave thisvery like infamous interview
where he said like only bad teams make desperate moves.

(14:30):
Like we don't want to be desperate just trying to make a
move because we need to. And we're literally 2 weeks
later and they are being quoted by their own B reporter as
desperate and whoring themselvesout for every single All Star in
the league. But I'll take it at this point.
The Warriors GM came up with thescript at a press conference and
gave that to Steph Curry to say to get them a little bit more
leverage than their trade deals.Well, it's.

(14:51):
All that leverage is gone now, but yeah, yeah, we sell trade,
but it But it's interesting withthe Bradley Beal thing, 'cause
when the Suns made that deal, I think most people agreed at the
time like this is a dumb deal. Bradley Beal's the worst
contract in the league. The no trade.
The no trade provision is brutal.
And I think a lot of people at the time were like, yeah, it's
bad, but like, you could probably convince Bradley Beal

(15:12):
like, if you needed to and Nope.And no, he's not being.
He's not being convinced. And but that's, that's crazy.
The points per game, 3 rebounds,3 assists on 50% field goal
shooting. That's that's 49% is not, is not
horrible, not even in the starting lineup.
But the but the craziest thing is like if you're a Sunspan
right right now, which thank GodI'm not you guys, you're like

(15:33):
the two paths. The fork in the road you could
have taken is Bradley Beal is willing to move his family and
you're going all in. You're getting Jimmy Butler,
you're fighting for a championship or one man Bradley
Beal says I want to stay with myfamily.
And now you're tanking and selling off your entire team
like it's entirely at the whim of one man.
Yeah, pretty well. It's it's crazy.

(15:53):
I I hope and pray that the Warriors can cook something up,
but I think, I think this seasonis just a little, a little
cooked. It's well, it's let's let's wrap
up the the NBA talk before we get into the the other terrible
trade of the week. What 1 prediction make one
prediction before the NBA trade deadline.
I think there's one more big trade to go. 1 prediction I'm
going. Warriors getting Zion I've been

(16:16):
saying it for two months. I, it's a hope cast, but I, I'm
choosing to believe it. How about you guys?
I, I, I think that would be those assists from staff would
be would be highlight worthy forsure.
I think my hot take is that Jimmy Butler doesn't sign
anywhere and he is just a free agent for the rest of the
season. I don't know if any team is
really willing to give up that much for Jimmy Butler, who for

(16:38):
the third time, second, third time now is like tanking his
team because he doesn't want to play for them anymore and who's
aging and doesn't show up in theregular season.
I I like as AGMI would be looking at that like can I get a
disc like a really ridiculous discount on him?
Otherwise I'm not interested unless you're like really in the

(17:00):
need for someone like the like the Warriors.
But Jimmy Butler already said hedoesn't want to go to the
Warriors, and he said. Well, that's the thing like
you're saying, I can't think of a team that that like can make a
dealer is willing to give up. I can't think of a team who
literally like can make a deal financially because he said that
he doesn't want to. He won't resign anywhere that's

(17:20):
not the Sons, including the Warriors and the Sons, if they
can't include Bradley Beal in the deal, can't make a deal.
Like unless they include Booker Durant, which I don't think it's
going to happen. So yeah, I don't know what
happens there because he's not afree agent.
Like he'll be signed to the team.
Even then, won't let him play. I don't know if he can be bought
out because he technically kind of has two years left on his
contract because he has a playeroption.

(17:41):
So that leaves us in a weird position.
Like I guess they could just release him, but I don't even
know if they could do that. There's I don't think.
Save the cap, save the cap space, get Bam and Tyler hero.
Somebody like half as good as Jimmy Butler, but like.
Wait, I don't think. Compromising.
It's like. We've never even had a situation
like this where a team is refusing to play a player.
For the last 15 games they've said we're 100% trading in by

(18:04):
the trade deadline and now it seems like he's impossible to
trade. Like what the fuck happened?
He's he's more untradable than Luca, but for the yeah, it's.
True, I don't know. What do you think about?
Brandon Ingram, I think, I thinkhe's going to get traded.
I mean, I don't see why they don't trade him.
They have what, like he? I think he's a free agent in
2025. Yeah, it might be expiring.

(18:27):
What about him? I don't know who the fuck wants
him he played for I don't think.Pistons are some rumors about
the Pistons wanting him? I would have been the.
Lakers before Luca, but like that would have been a an ideal
landing spot for him. Just just want to point
something out real quick. You guys see that little Laker
sign right there? I have.
I got ordered that a couple daysago.
Just saying it came in like the day before we traded for Luca.

(18:50):
That's crazy. Yeah.
It's all you belay like I I fully believe that.
I fully believe that Blay would have been capable to pull off
this trade. I pulled this off.
I made it happen. Lakers Nation.
Start watching the Progressive podcast.
Subscribe, like and comment, andmaybe more good things will
happen for the Lakers. Yeah, Blay, if you're actually
this good at deals, maybe you want to go hop into the
administration, go go help out some of these tariffs, this

(19:12):
tariff bullshit. Oh yeah, perfect segue into bad
deals and bad trades we have. This episode needs to be two
terrible trades. Like in two days.
No two days of terrible trades, anything like that.
Well, Trump's claiming victory now, right?
They're claiming success for thesame shit that two countries,
Mexico and Canada, committed to while Biden was in office.
He so easily played that you could just repeat the same thing

(19:34):
you said in December, the same pledge.
He's like, oh, OK, we're going to, we're going to delay the
terrorists by 30 days. We're no longer going to levy
them on you guys because you guys are helping us out.
It's a victory for us. Even though they committed to
this under Joe Biden. But like, again, narrative
media, I, I don't know, I don't this is, I think this is the one
area that the the public really did react negatively to him.

(19:55):
You're seeing a lot of the Tik Toks, a lot of the Instagram
reels of what the tariffs would have done and even people who
were Trump supporters saying I don't necessarily agree with the
tariffs, but he's trying to protect the border and but.
But the tariffs are stupid like that's there's the thing anybody
who's fun like an economically literate right.
So just just for example, right,tariffs there, what's called an
import tax, right? It's basically just saying when
you bring something into my country, it's going to cost X

(20:16):
amount dollars more, right And and president dipshit didn't.
Seem serious to him. That the other people don't pay
those things pay for it right and like.
Let's let's set the stage for the viewers.
If they weren't paying attention, what what happened
this week? No, it Max what happened?
I don't know what. Happened.
It's gonna kill me. It's gonna kill me.
My blood pressure is so fucking high.
But so President Trump promised a bunch of tariffs, right?
He believes that tariffs are a way to raise revenues.

(20:39):
He believes that they're good for the economy for some reason,
right? But in reality, he sees them as
leverage. And so he's had this plan of
raising tariffs on all these different countries, right?
And tariffs can be used good on China for example, like to stop
them from making batteries. Or the electric vehicles.
Yeah, exactly. To protect American industries,
right? Those are what are called
targeted tariffs. Those are a good thing, right?

(21:00):
We want those. Those are smart, but we got to
be careful with them, right? Because they raise prices.
So now Trump decided he's going to pick a fight with our two
closest allies, Canada and Mexico, right?
They are responsible for 40% of everything that comes in this
country. Trillions of dollars worth of
things. Things like bell Peppers, all
the fruit we eat, avocados, likevegetables.
You meat, beer, alcohol. Alcohol is.

(21:22):
Donald Trump trying to take awaymy beer.
Max in my tequila. He wants your beer to be more
expensive. He wants your modelos to be no
more. Expensive.
No in my tequila. Oh God.
Your tequila, well, your tequilain your in your medelos are
Mexican, so they're not allowed already.
Based on but. But so anyway, so Long story
short, he decided on the weekendhe was going to finally sign his

(21:43):
little tariff shit. However, everybody on the market
in like the in Wall Street actually thought he was too
chicken shit because it's such adumb idea.
Like, no, no economist or any person with any understanding of
economics would think, hey, we should pick a fight with our
closest allies who support keeping things cheap, right?
And so he decided to do that over the weekend.
So when the market saw that, they freaked the fuck out, you
know, futures just because the answer is what would have

(22:05):
happened if they had gone through and had actually, you
know, just over time, not only one, everything would have gone
up in price. Everything that comes from from
vegetables to meat to lumber to the things that you build with
go up in price, right? 25, same thing.
It would have hurt our trade relationships with two of our
closest allies, almost half of everything that comes in the
country, right? And so the answer is, once

(22:27):
everything hit the fan, they were like, holy shit, he's
actually serious. He backed down because he's a
chicken shit guy who just makes things up.
And then he decided to declare victory over nothing actually
happening. But the broader question is why?
Why would you do this? That's a terrible deal.
Because even now that this happened, we still lost, right?
We pissed off our close allies. We didn't actually get any real
concessions. He probably could have just

(22:48):
called them them up and say, hey, can you help us with the
fentanyl thing? It's a terrible deal.
It's so. Why?
I also think it's I think it's important to establish too, to
our viewers that there's different types of tariffs
during the campaign. I remember, yeah, I remember
during the campaign, people werepushing back against like Trump
supporters were arguing like, oh, Biden kept in place a lot of
the tariffs that Trump did. There's a difference.

(23:10):
Targeted tariffs that target like specific industries and
industries. Doesn't want to.
Protect. So we're trying to grow like
this. Is that what?
We want to make sure our domestic industry can grow, so
we want to protect them from competition for specific
industries. But what Trump proposed was
across the board on all imports from any type from that country,
which is entirely different. And even if it's much, if we

(23:31):
have no desire making. Exactly like fruits and veggies.
And like the thing that makes itreally stupid is that you have
to be careful with tariffs because your econ one O 1
textbook oversimplifies and says, oh, will it protect an
industry? Right.
And Bush did this in 2000. He thought he would protect
steel. And all that ended up happening
was everybody who used steel hadto pay more for it and it killed
all our steel producing industries.

(23:51):
So so you have to be really careful with tariffs.
They're not a good tool. And Trump thinks we're going to
raise all this money off of it and then other people are going
to pay for it. But the fact of the matter, this
is Trump's terrible tax. Like it's really that simple.
It's also important to note thatit's not just that American
consumers will be taxed more forthe goods that are imported, but
instead of paying that premium tax on the tariffs, people in

(24:12):
various industries will take their products and not just pay
the fee for the incoming products, but they'll take it to
other markets. So it's not even that these
products are higher price, it's that they might not even exist
in American markets anymore because they have to pay this
extra price. It's like if I have to pay $1.25
for my paper clips to get into the United States, but I can pay

(24:35):
a dollar over here to, to get tothe European Union, then I would
pay the dollar every time because it just math makes sense
there. I'm paying less in shipping to,
to do that. I also, I, I think it's one,
it's important also to point outthat I don't necessarily think
this is for leverage. Also, it might be a, as
complicated leverage thing that Trump is pushing.

(24:56):
But when he was asked directly in a press conference, someone
said, is this like a negotiatingtool?
What is your plan for this? And Trump said, no, this is,
this is purely an economic function.
We're, we're not using this. I mean, we can put the clip in
the in the podcast, but like he,he directly said, no, this is
not a negotiating tool. We're using this to raise
revenues. And, well, he's.

(25:16):
He's even ridiculously suggestedthat we could replace the
federal income tax, which just. Could you guys explain that?
Like the, the idea that we, that, you know, a lot of Trump
supporters do do say that if we just implement all these
tariffs, we don't have to pay federal income tax.
Would that be enough to actuallyfund, you know, programs like IK
fund, programs like Head Start, like actual infrastructure

(25:37):
funding? Can you guys explain that
concept? Well, so here's the thing,
right? These tariffs, like revenues
that they raise, they're collected by Customs and Border
Patrol. So, so when I bring my apple to
the states from Mexico, right, when I go to the border and I
bring this apple, then Customs and Border Patrol has to collect
it. The only issue is they're
collecting like a 25% thing on what comes in.
And there's only so high you canpush it before people just go,

(26:00):
you know what, fuck this, I'm not even going to bring it.
So the answer is no. Like we would not raise even
remotely enough if we taxed everything coming into this
country. One, let's be clear, it's going
to tax the stuff that we buy. And two, it's not going to raise
enough money. It's just really not that.
Like it does not going to work. The math doesn't work.
I think Trump's tariffs might raise 400 billion.
I want to say either 10 years orlike this year, but it's going

(26:23):
to cost 1.3 trillion like to theAmerican people.
So like the question is like, dowe really want to do that?
Or we could just skip all the shit, keep our stuff cheap and
just pay more tax if. You and even if we did that,
that revenue is nothing covers the federal budget is that's
miniscule compared to. It Yeah, exactly.
And he's not interested in protecting these programs.

(26:43):
Like I guess if he was to be smart about this, maybe we'd
create like a sovereign wealth fund.
Like there's a lot of ways we can raise revenues and do these
things, but but tariffs are not a good way.
And if whoever's been whisperingin his ear of raise the tariffs,
raise the tariff, like don't do that.
I know he's been like meat riding William McKinley for a
while, but. Like that's really what it is.
He's obsessed. I think he like.
Truly. Like, I don't, I don't think

(27:03):
Trump has a lot of core beliefs.I think tariffs are one of his
core beliefs. I think he generally does
believe in tariffs and likes tariffs.
I think they are. And I also think I think this
relates to swing Dylan, you weretalking about a couple episodes
ago that I thought was interesting when we were talking
about him wanting to acquire like the Panama Canal or
Greenland or 51st state, that heis a second term limit term
limited president. And that he really is like

(27:24):
focused on these like big like Mount Rushmore legacy, like TV
president things. And I think he thinks of tariffs
through that realm, and he thinks of them is like this
thing that'll be established foryears to come and change the
country. Yeah, I definitely think that.
I think a lot of these things are not not for economic
functions. I don't even think Trump
understands that the difference between a trade deficit and a
federal deficit. I I don't think he actually

(27:46):
like, I think he's actually justnot understanding these things
and people are just telling him this stuff.
I mean, there's, there's a numerous like examples both
inside Trump's administration and outside of it.
Like, for example, this is kind of a contentious point, but like
corporate tax rates are a kind of comparable example where it's
like the more you tax corporations, the less

(28:07):
efficiently they're going to run.
Kind of the same with global trade.
The more you tax global trade, the less efficiently it's going
to run. There's probably a.
Simplified version of that, but you're absolutely correct.
And hold on. I want to tag in on this one.
Not to interrupt you, but there's a really good concept of
if Trump was smart, right? Like back in 20/16/2020, right?
His first or 2017 to 2017. Yet actually him and the couch
Republicans like look, obviouslywe disagree on a lot of things,

(28:28):
but they actually had a good proposal.
I'm going to go and link this below because I wrote up a huge
thing about it. It was called the destination
based cash flow tax, right? If you were really interested in
raising revenues in a clever waythat actually protect domestic
industries, right, What this would have done would have
taxed, well, cash flow basicallyafter it goes to where it's
done, right? So for example, if a company
raises money, right, and then they were to reinvest it, right,

(28:51):
We would tax it after instead oftaxing like when you move it,
when you take the revenue and doing all this bullshit, it
would have not only raised revenues, but it would also
incentivize you to invest in things, right?
And so that's, that's one of thebroader things of like Trump
doesn't actually know what he's doing, right?
Like when competent conservatives were in charge,
right? They, they wanted these changes,
right? They wanted things like
destination cash flow tax. But instead now he's just

(29:12):
interested and in destroying like global trade.
And like, what he doesn't understand is that we will get
hailed by cost of living if we do that.
Like if we want to produce everything in the US, everything
we do is going to cost like triple the price.
Like that's. That's clear.
I think we learned in the Biden administration that voters might
claim that they do, but they don't really give a shit about
stuff being made in the US. They care about their shit that

(29:33):
they buy being cheap. And we, we saw Biden try to,
well, it depends who you are, I'm saying.
No, I think it does. Depend, but I think that's
revealed preferences versus likeclaim what they say their.
Preferences are you you want OK,like if you want king things
made in the US right, that's cool.
I I want things major too but doyou want a car that costs like

(29:53):
for example with EVs? If you wanted a Chinese cheap EV
do you want one that's $8000 andis electric like a Tesla or do
you want to pay the 40,000 for aTesla?
The issue is that we can't be giving all this like shit to
China right? So the answer in fixing this
cost of living and making these trade things cheaper is working
with allies, not pissing them off.
So working with Canada, working with Mexico, working with the EU

(30:15):
to get cheaper cars. We want cheaper stuff, let's do
it. But let's build in the free
world, not just piggyback off China's manipulative bullshit.
That's a good point. I do think like comparing, I
have AI have a friend from Panama and there's there are a
lot of like Chinese electric vehicles in Panama and he
describes them as like trash. He says they're trash, they're
cheap, but they won't last you very long versus like American
Electric vehicles are much better.

(30:36):
They last you a lot longer. It's just the quality is a lot
better. So going back to what Ben said,
I think I do agree that voters do want lower prices.
But at the end of the day, you everyone can feel the quality of
shit made in China versus shit made here or shit made in
Canada. Even shit made in Mexico.
You can feel and understand thatshit just last more here.
So that's the argument I would make to Americans or like I
think if I was, if I. I mean, I agree that that's

(30:59):
true. Like someone buying some shit on
Amazon that like is some Chineseknock off, like they'll notice
the difference. That's not really what I mean.
I just mean I don't think like you could sell that.
I don't think Trump could raise prices on a lot of stuff and
then be like, well, but look, it's all American manufacturing
now. I don't think that would sell at
all. And I mean I don't even find the
way trying. To sell that is not a smart way.

(31:20):
So just like Biden promoted a lot of buy American products
without like completely shuttingoff the rest of the world's
products, but like elevating American products, be like, hey,
this is made in America. It's better if you can buy the
cheaper product if you want to. It's up to you.
But I do think that a lot of Americans, you know, most
Americans probably will still gowith the cheaper product.
But I think you would find a significant amount of Americans
are like, I'll buy something that's made in America.

(31:40):
Most of them are workers. But here's the thing.
When you say made in America, right, Biden's big thing was
industrial policy, right? He's talking about solar panels
and green tech and climate tech,which China dominates.
You want to build those in the US, right?
We can do that. But like.
Why does China dominate Max? Well, So what China does this
thing with called state capitalism, right?
They basically just point a gun at your head and say make 10

(32:01):
million billion cars, right? And they do that.
They direct all this people and manpower and obviously they use
like borderline slave labor for these things.
But the fact of the matter is they can just do that, right?
So when we build stuff, right, all these input costs, so like
we have to pay people a decent wage, right?
You have to do permitting and actually get like a
environmental check. China just says fuck all that
and to go under your head and says build it.

(32:23):
So the issue with that, right? That's one of the broader
questions of engaging with China, right?
Do you want stuff to be really cheap?
But then we lose all these manufacturing jobs like we did
in the 90s, right? China is a very illiberal
democracy that doesn't play by trade rules.
So again, when we engage with China, we have to be a little
more careful, right? So if, again, if Trump was
smart, he would get hawkish on China.
He was right about that. Except now he's just kind of

(32:45):
like he's. Closing up to China, I saw that
like his administration is closing up to China on like
Taiwan policy. I don't know if it's true, but.
It is true. No, we.
Know that Elon Musk There's a lot of conflict of interest with
Elon Musk and his involvement inChina.
Oh, you mean like him going intothe Treasury and having access
to all of our Social Security? Cards, yeah, and.
He, he, he, the Chinese government, I would say, has
some influence over him. They obviously did.

(33:07):
Well, here's the thing. We can't definitely prove it,
but the answer is there's something SUS going on.
And like, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an
investigative journalist to see that, right?
A rocket scientist. Get it?
It's because he's Tesla ID. But I mean, you just can't have
18 year olds in charge of Officeof Personnel Management.
You can't have Musk fanboys going into the treasury.
And if our listeners don't understand what I'm saying, like

(33:28):
I, I want to be very clear that Elon Musk and his goons over at
Doge walked into the Treasury Department, which has access to
your Social Security card, Ben'sSocial Security card, my Social
Security card, all our payment information.
And Musk just took that data, right?
He has that information. He's going into these federal
things as an unelected official.Imagine if George Soros's son
was doing this. Like imagine the and I would

(33:49):
also be outraged because like I'm principled enough to be like
no, these fucking unelected bureaucrats should not have
information to our data. Well, exactly.
Yeah. And how is that fair that
they're allowed to do these things?
Well, that reminds me of Trump announced, I think like one of
his first days in office. There was some big new AI
investment project that they were trying to treat it, act
like it was like the Manhattan Project.
And they did this whole announcement, $500 billion

(34:11):
investment. They had all the AI people at
the White House and fucking Elonthen goes on Twitter and starts
shitting on it. And he started getting in on
with Sam Altman in replies. And Sam Altman wrote like wrong
as you surely know, blah blah. And then he said this is great
for the country. I realized what is great for the
country isn't always what's mostoptimal for your companies.
But in your new role, I hope you'll mostly put the US 1st.

(34:32):
And I thought that was a a good insane.
But insane shade but I mean. But also the fact that Elon is
out there like shitting on something that Trump proudly
announced the day before is pretty wild.
To be fair, that. Yellow was was facilitated by
the White House. It wasn't a direct government
investment in AI. It was a yeah, it was a it was a
private investment bank. And, and yeah, exactly.
But because I do think all of this is great conversation, but

(34:55):
I do think it's also in vain because I don't think Trump
cares about any of the economicsor anything like that.
I think this is all like, I think this is not necessarily
the like A1 size fits all way tolook through the lens.
But Trump's vanity is like, he probably gets off to having
people like suck up to him having Trudeau.

(35:15):
Oh. Yes.
What's like Canada is like yeah,exactly.
Yeah. Like Canada is like we, we've
fought and died with you and like we, we're going to work
through this troubling time and Trump is like, Oh yeah, like
give me more of that, please. I love it.
I, I just feel like for, I mean,like in Trump's first
administration with the tariffs that he imposed originally when,

(35:37):
when he was president the first time, that cost American
families $1200 per year in raised costs.
Like he doesn't care about the economics of this.
And like, like Max said, it's like the trade or you said Ben,
it's like the trade. The trade-offs are 400 billion
in revenue and 1.2 trillion in cost.
So it's like you don't care about any of this.

(35:57):
Well, I don't think he doesn't. Understand it, I don't think.
He doesn't care about the actualconcessions.
He cares about, like him, the perception that these other
countries are willing to give concessions.
It's not about the actual concessions.
It's about like their willingness to.
It's, it's kind of a show like, like, like I want, I want us to
react to a JD Vance video. I'm about to play it.
It's about like 2 minutes long. And it's, it's, I think it's 5.

(36:21):
Five hours ago he was in East Palestine, Palestine's, I
pronounce it giving remarks. And he touched on the tariffs
and the negotiating tactic and how smart Trump is for doing
this. I do want us to like segue to.
That wait, that's perfect. How is he and how is he alive in
East Palestine? I thought that was like a whole
nuclear site Because the evil Biden administration let them
like get burned or I will. Say like not visiting, like I,

(36:43):
you know, I that is just funny because service did push that,
like the fact that Biden, did Biden even ever visit East
Palestine? He didn't and he didn't need to.
But I optics probably, yeah, I probably agree that the optics
were it was an it was an easy thing to do.
Probably. I think Pete did go eventually,
but even it took Pete kind of and I don't, I think if it was
up to Pete, he probably would have went earlier.

(37:05):
It's the optics man so bad. Yeah.
I mean, I don't know that I'm convinced that that.
Mattered, but like, you know, wemight, we might not think it
matters, but for those communities and like for the
upper Midwest, seeing that Trumpis here after a disaster when
the fucking sitting president isn't, I think that does matter
to some, to some some aspect. There there was a very
interesting piece that Ezra Klein put out where he talks

(37:28):
about this concept from Steve Bannon called muzzle velocity,
where it's the concept is like for the Trump administration.
Obviously they're doing a lot ofreally controversial things.
The Birthright, executive order,tariffs, whatever ICE
deportations, whatever your like, pick is that you think is
most egregious. The mindset though, is like, if

(37:48):
we put out enough of these things, muzzle velocity, if
we're doing enough volume of things, then it's it doesn't
matter because there's too many things to report on.
American viewers, American citizens are divided on what
they can see. I think Democrats probably don't
need to be doing egregious things.
I'm not advocating for that, butit's it's like stop playing so
safe on a lot of these things, take some more risks.

(38:10):
Today they did. Today they, they did something.
They showed up at the USAID office and the senators showed
up and they weren't allowed to be entered.
I'm like, yeah, do shit like that.
There you go. I didn't know about that, but
something like that. I do think the part of the
appeal also of Trump is like he is seen as a risk taker.
He's The Apprentice, he is the businessman.
He's the guy who ran for three times for president and won the

(38:31):
the third time. Third time's the time, I guess.
Shot like once and still ran andstill was running and.
Yeah. And I think, I think for the for
the American dream, for for the working class, like somebody who
takes risks, who is ambitious issomebody who you look up to as a
leader. Whereas in Europe or in South
America or or in China like thatmight not be a character trait,
but for better or worse, or we as Americans are looking for

(38:52):
people who are more risk averse.And the people like.
Confidence can do that. They like confidence regardless
if they agree with the decision.They like people who are like
confidently arguing in favor of.Something and you'll see a lot
of Trump supporters actually saythis about Obama, like, look, I
didn't agree with his policies and I may have voted for him the
first time, but he spoke well, he was confident.
He was put together and I could say, you know, that's my

(39:13):
president. It's fake southern accent.
But like that there is that out there.
And I think Americans also like a hopeful story, right?
They like someone. Who?
I agree. Like, like, yeah, Trump grew up
with money, but he built all these businesses and, you know,
his name is everywhere now. And, and with like, Barack
Obama, for example, growing up like a single mother, right?
Like putting himself through college, doing everything and,
and being the first term senatoror going, you know, you know,

(39:35):
riding himself in the political machine and becoming president,
like hope and, and that type of story Americans love.
And we're, we're just like lacking that so badly right now.
Like, I don't know who the Democratic leader is.
Yeah, and I mean. Reflecting on Chuck Schumer, I
could tell you that. Obama.
Obama was one of the youngest presidents that we've ever had,
and that shows some level of risk tolerance.

(39:57):
It's like, fuck, OK, I'm, I've been in the Senate for four
years. I'm going to run against Hillary
Clinton. I'm like super young.
I have. I was going against like a plan
machine, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Versus I think Democrats lost that mentality because they
their opposition was centered around Nancy Pelosi and Joe
Biden, and both of those people rooted in in the Democratic

(40:18):
politics. Seniority and all these norms.
Joe Biden's run in 2020 wasn't risk tolerance.
It was I am the establishment. I am the safe choice.
Let's take the least risky candidate to win, yes?
Because remember, all those polls would come out about
voters saying I like Bernie Sanders, I like Elizabeth
Warren, but I'm voting based on who I think my neighbor would

(40:41):
vote for. That was a huge discussion in
2020. Electability #1 #1 criteria for
Democrats in 2020. It wasn't who had the best
health care policy. It wasn't who was the most
aspiring. It was who can defeat Donald
Trump and right, and Joe Biden continuously, even though he was
losing Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, always ranked number
one on that list. I think we just don't take

(41:01):
risks. And in some cases, that's good,
right? We're not shutting down the
federal government and shutting down all these programs like
Trump did for two days. But at the same time, we can't
just be the standard like establishment, normally
Democrats that people are sick of, like Americans are sick of
Democrats right now. You need to not only rebrand,
yes, rebrand. You need to rethink about A,
some policies and B, start speaking to voters who don't

(41:25):
necessarily always agree with you.
I say this all the time on this podcast, like go on platforms
that are even hostile to you. Pete Buttigieg does a great job
doing this right. He's great on like Fox News,
He's great on all these channels.
I may not agree with a Senate run, but he is good and he does
employ something that I think Democrats are missing.
And that's like being risky going on Fox News and and

(41:46):
debating. Also, I think that just shows to
voters, like it gives them the perception of a fighter or
someone who like deeply believesin it and is so confident in
defending their ideas, they're willing to go on these tough
places. Like I think it seeing an idea
questioned and then have it pushed back by someone like
Pete, I think is like the best way to prove it.
Like that kind of debate contentI think is good.
Yeah, I think, I think it's kindof reflected in somebody,

(42:08):
somebody said the back of the classroom vibe that you want all
your politicians to have, like Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, very
like cool, a lot of swagger. Don't necessarily think that's
like that's too niche, that's too like too fake if you're if
you're actively looking for that.
But somebody who does display like the last three Democratic
presidents, besides Joe Biden, Obama, Clinton and Jimmy Carter,

(42:30):
all all had crazy risk tolerance.
Georgia governor running for president, governor of Arkansas.
Like these are not like the governor of New York or
California. These are not the safe picks.
This is somebody who is throwingtheir hat in the ring.
Yep. And it displays enough risk
tolerance to be like, I can carry you through this tough
time. I can carry this party.
I can do all these things. And it sometimes it is so far as

(42:53):
sometimes it is like Hillary Clinton says she can carry this
but and wants to be president sobad but can't pull.
It out, I think risk tolerance is a great way to frame it as
like a through line through all these elections.
Because I, I didn't think calm was a bit of an outlier for some
of these critiques we have of like, like, I don't know that
she really is the front of the classroom vibe.
Like I think she actually is more of the back of the

(43:13):
classroom vibe in a good way. But I do think the thing that's
the through line through Biden and forward is that she was
incredibly risk averse. I mean, we've talked about, I
think the base example of that is that she refused to come out
and and endorse, I forget what, Prop 32, one of the propositions
in California. Yeah, that was around harsh she
did. No, no, but she was so risk of

(43:34):
her she didn't want to come out in support of it the week of the
election thinking like where's it gonna go?
And it ended up passing with 70%.
I think she was being held back too.
I really do think she. Was maybe, but she's the nominee
like, like take some risk and don't let yourself be held back
and. That was that was a problem with
Biden too as president. It's like he's I, I've read a
great piece on this in this on in Vox.

(43:55):
I can't remember who wrote it, but it was like Joe Biden's
presidency versus Trump's presidency is and we could move
on from this. I'm just rambling at this point,
but Joe Biden's view for Bill Back better for the American
Rescue Plan was all these different constituents,
constituencies helped get me elected was the Bernie Kratz.
It was the Blue Dog Democrats. It was Nancy Pelosi.

(44:16):
Suburban voters. But it, yeah, it was.
Yeah. And so he has all these people.
Being a lifelong politician, he has to dole out his favors.
He has to pay his favors back. And that's what was reflected in
the that legislation. And because of that, it was less
effective, less grandiose, less of a risk in his legislation.

(44:38):
And I think that was also the view from Como's campaign was
like, we don't want to take risks because.
I wouldn't even call it Como's campaign.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't even call it Como's
campaign though. Like I.
I don't think Joe Biden, Joe Biden left errors.
Yeah, and, and, and maybe his last act as president, I think
is a great example of the harms of that risk averse approach
with the TikTok ban where he signed it and like was in theory

(45:00):
in favor of it, but he didn't want to take the risk to like,
publicly make the case in favor of banning it.
You don't get credit. It's just yeah so instead he
just quietly bans it and then doesn't even enforce it cuz he
doesn't want to take the risk and you lose lose.
But yeah, I think, but I the comparison was also like Trump.
Trump in his first term had a little bit of that like
establishment people pulling himin different directions.

(45:21):
This time it's like I'm gonna take the risks that I want
because I don't care. I have lockstep in my party
behind me. I have a cult following for the
middle American and the SouthernAmerican who is like all red and
deer hunting and gun loving and football, football routing,
whatever you want to call those people.
And because he has that loyal support and he has less

(45:42):
constituencies to answer for, and because he doesn't care
about those other constituenciesbecause he got elected anyways,
his mindset is like, I can take these risks because fuck all of
you. I'm in charge.
And that is who Donald Trump is.That's also a result of him
being a riskier candidate and itworking out.
And it's like, I think somebody who writes about this very

(46:02):
interestingly is Nate Silver, because he's a professional
poker player. And like, he's like, you have to
consider the risks that you're taking.
You're hedging your bets in a lot of these situations.
And his advice to Joe Biden or like the, the, the 2020
hindsight view on it was Joe Biden should have hedged his
bets more on a lot of these things.
He's the master legislator. He's the 40 year Senate veteran.

(46:23):
He's somebody who can cook all these things up and and kind of
pull out, but he never did because he's.
Was I think I agree. I agree.
I think one thing that, like, iscrucial to understanding his
presidency is that, man, he was really fucking old.
Like, he's really. Yeah.
So the power of the bully pulpitis not really.
There was, it was not. It's, it's so it's, it's exactly

(46:44):
like, I think if you know, earlyon in the administration when
Joe Manchin was kind of signaling his like, oh, I don't
know if I'm going to vote for the American Rescue Plan.
Not sure. Kamala Harris went on a
television station in West Virginia talking about like the
crucial programs that would helpWest Virginia.
The mansion camp was like what the fuck?
How, How dare Kamala go and well, next day.

(47:06):
There was backlash to it, but I think part of that is also just
she was the vice president, so she doesn't have like the main
negotiating position. Like if she's the president
doing that, like it's less like I, I think if she's.
The president, that's baller like, do that.
Exactly. Like, go there and meet them and
be like, look, I'm trying to getthis bill passed.
I'm not saying Joe Manchin is anobstacle yet, but hey, like,
let's tell your senators to helpme out.

(47:26):
I think Kamala Harris doing thatat the beginning, like, yeah,
that she was probably put to it.She obviously agreed to do it.
She and I don't think I don't want the bill.
To do that. The bully pulpit isn't just for
like, convincing people to take different positions or like
convincing politicians to vote on.
So like, it's also we're lackingthat in the propaganda sense of
the bully pulpit. Trump from the second he took

(47:47):
office as president in his firstterm, every time he's on TV,
he's talking about how like he'screated the best economy in the
world. He's naming like 50 fake stats
compared against to the rest of the world and claiming it's like
the best that there's ever been.Those stats were like mostly
made-up. If Biden had real stats he could
have pointed to. And like my take is I think
Trump could have in the exact same position sold the Biden

(48:08):
economy even with inflation I think.
He I disagree with AI think one thing.
That it wouldn't have been easy,but I think he could have pulled
it off. I don't think so.
I think one thing Americans do care a lot about is the price is
about prices. So going to the grocery store,
looking at your gas prices, likewe saw this with this terror
debate, I don't think Trump would have been able to pull it
off either. I, I don't think so.
Like, what is he getting out there and say we have this many

(48:28):
jobs, Americans are still going to be like, look.
That's well he could have paid. I mean people say it would have
been a dumb argument, but I think if anyone could have
pulled it off, it's him comparing like our inflation
rate to everywhere else in the world.
If we have, we have the lowest inflation in the world, highest
highest employment rate in the world, like biggest GDP growth
since the inflation started. Like if he was comparing us to
every other country which he. Tried that was COVID though and
it didn't work. Like you know what I mean?

(48:49):
Like the back point on his side,That's what I'm saying.
I think this, yeah, But like, it's more about what Americans
are seeing. Americans are like during COVID,
Americans are seeing their fellow like, loved ones get
sick, get like, die. Americans now are.
So I'm not comparing this to, like, inflation, but Americans
are seeing prices go up. So it's really hard to change
someone's opinion when they physically are seeing this in
their own life. I I'll take the middle position.

(49:12):
I think it's a calculus of did it work or it's not a calculus
of did it work or did it not work?
It's how much, how many people did you actually convince?
And I think I agree with you, Blay, like in principle and in
general, it didn't really convince enough people.
But the amount of Democrats thatare still like super pro vaccine
and who are turning out people who are very anti January 6th,

(49:34):
who believe that Donald Trump fumble the handling of COVID.
I think enough people were convinced of that argument where
like that that turned out peopleto vote in 2024 or at least in
2022. And it's the same thing with
with prices. It would have been can I
convince 1% of the voter base toto change their mind and flip
the election because that's all I need.

(49:55):
Yeah, you don't get, I mean, against the general population
because we're so divided. It's like, can you flip that one
person who's like, well, I have a new job, but like prices are
too high. I don't really know what's going
on. I'll vote for Trump because he's
like the safer than that. And it's like, no.
That that's very true fun. Been able to convince enough
people to switch switch some. Election results.
It's not all or nothing. It's just hard.

(50:16):
I think it's hard with like things that are right in your
face. Like it's hard to change their
opinions about it because it's right in their face.
And they feel like they're beinglied to.
Like when Biden would go out there and say we have the lowest
inflation in the world. Technically it it's true among
Western countries, but again, they feel like they're being
lied to. I I agree, but you said
something there I'm not sure I agree with when Biden goes out

(50:36):
there and says, I don't really remember him going out there and
saying that very often. He.
Did in interviews. He didn't.
Say a couple. Interviews, but they would, they
would circulate. I would see the videos.
Like they circulate because we're like incredibly online and
see it, but like I don't think they circulated so like but I
but like the funny. Thing is, you say we're like
incredibly online. I think Americans are very
online today. No, they are.
They are, but they're online in a different.

(50:58):
Way is like staggering. They're online in the way that
they see posts that are on like rap TV or whatever network like
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not stupid.
They're not on this doing. A good job lately, OK?
That's true. They're great at making comments
look bad. All right, well, thank you guys
for listening. There's been another episode of
the Progressive podcast. Hope you guys enjoy it.

(51:18):
Hopefully all of this stuff is not completely irrelevant by the
time we upload it, but hopefullywe.
Choose trade by the time. Yeah, no.
Hopefully by the time we upload this, my Zion Williams to the
Warriors prediction is looking insanely good.
But anyway, thank you guys for listening.
A lot of exciting episodes coming up in the in the next few
weeks. We have an episode with a Senate

(51:39):
staffer coming up a couple days from now and then some
interviews with some elected officials and some some other
cool people that I think you guys will enjoy.
So make sure to stay tuned to the progressive feed.
We're on YouTube and you can listen to our podcast anywhere
you get our podcast. Thank you guys.
Thank you guys.