Marianne Williamson on Musk’s Hostile Takeover and How to Restore Real Progressive Power

We sit down with Marianne Williamson, bestselling author, political activist, and former Democratic presidential candidate, for an unfiltered conversation on how the Democratic Party lost its backbone, Elon Musk’s growing stranglehold on government, and what it will take to rebuild real progressive power.

Williamson starts by discussing the failures of the Democratic Party’s messaging—why they struggle to communicate their victories and how a consultant-driven, donor-focused strategy has alienated voters (01:20). She explains why Democrats are afraid to fully embrace their own progressive legacy, and how the party has allowed Republicans to define the political narrative (12:49).

The conversation shifts to how Republicans intentionally sabotage government programs to justify cutting them and how billionaires like Elon Musk are orchestrating a hostile takeover of the U.S. government (17:21). Williamson warns that Musk’s endgame is mass privatization and consolidation of power, turning the government into a tool for the ultra-wealthy (23:06).

Later, Williamson discusses the failures of Democratic leadership, explaining why Kamala Harris, Barack Obama, and other top Democrats have struggled to inspire voters (35:39). She reveals the corrupt inner workings of the 2024 Democratic primary, including how the DNC and corporate media colluded to deamplify her campaign and suppress challenges to Biden (41:59).

As the discussion deepens, Williamson addresses why young voters, especially young men, are shifting away from Democrats, and how the party needs to stop focusing on ideological purity tests and start welcoming in new voices (48:23). She warns that the Democratic establishment is running out of time to fix its failures before 2028 (55:19).

Finally, Williamson shares personal advice for young people navigating today’s chaotic world—how to stay politically engaged without burning out, why conviction and resilience matter more than credentials, and why your 20s should be a time of transformation, not self-doubt (1:02:47).

Follow Marianne Williamson ⁠⁠@marwilliamson⁠, Beleh ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@Btoma15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Ben ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@BenBartlettt⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠,⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brogressive Podcast ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@BrogressivePod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on Twitter/X.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the
Progressive Podcast. We have a very special guest
today, Marianne Williamson. Marianne is a best selling
author, political activist and former Democratic presidential
candidate, two time presidentialcandidate.
She also was formerly Oprah Winfrey's spiritual advisor.
So we covered a ton in this episode.

(00:29):
It was a great interview how Democrats can move forward
successfully and learn the rightlessons.
She also gave us some great advice and great advice for
anyone around our age or just ingeneral about how to move
forward in such a chaotic world right now and just the right
mindset to have. So it was a super interesting
conversation. I think you guys are really
going to enjoy it. So let's just get right into it.

(00:50):
Here's our conversation with Marianne Williamson.
One of the problems I have with the left sometimes is people,
you know, I think our knowledge of history is so important.
And sometimes, you know, on the right, people won't admit that
we ever did anything wrong. But on the left, there are
people who won't admit that we ever did anything right.

(01:12):
And, and both of those views really pervert and revise
history. That's very important to know
and to remember. Yeah.
It's really interesting that youmentioned that talking about the
things we've done right. I, I've been reading Mark Jay
Dunkelman's Who Killed Progress and How to Bring It Back?
And he talks a lot about the battle in the progressive
movement, about Hamiltonian ideology versus Jeffersonian,

(01:34):
you know, decentralization, centralization, and the current
moment about decentralizing power, but also centralizing it
and putting us in this weird lockstep, right, where we're so
afraid the government will do bad things.
I think there's a good time about the LBJ stuff, you know,
foreign and also Nixon domestic.But we don't allow the
government to do things. But then we want it to do

(01:57):
things. We want to empower it to fight
climate change and a lot of these things, but we don't want
it to cause problems. And I'd love to hear some of
your thoughts on progress in the.
Future in In general, federalismis important.
Alexander Hamilton said that thestates were the laboratories of
reform. The problem is that we're living
at a time when let the states handle it has become code for

(02:20):
some very extreme right wing perspectives.
When they did when they took tried to take environmental
processes away from from from the national federal control.
This was to make it 50 times harder for us to actually get
things done because we were going to have to fight it on all

(02:42):
50 states. Even now, getting rid of the
Department of Education, if you just give it to the states,
there are states in this countrywho are going to where our
classrooms are just going to become hotbeds of Christian
nationalism and complete revisionism of our history in
all the ways that we've already seen begin to play out.

(03:05):
So in if you're just talking about it theoretically, there's
something pretty fantastic aboutthe fact that a lot is left in
the hands of the States and you know, it, it, they are
laboratories of reform and so forth.
And sometimes they are. So it's not like you, you don't
want to respect the theory. It's just that you have to be

(03:26):
realistic. You look at, you know, it did
take federal marshals to desegregate the schools and so
forth. So nothing it on a, on any piece
of paper, no matter how brilliant, can compensate for
mean spiritedness and lack of ethics within people.

(03:47):
And I think one of the ways thatwe try to align ourselves with
the better angels of our nature is by learning history, you
know, and understanding. If you're, if you're a kid in
school in the 7th grade, you know, so many states in America
today don't even require half a year of, of, of study of
American history, American government, American, you know,

(04:12):
anything that's important and how we work in this country.
So it should be 7th graders discussing that. 7th graders
should be understanding. Well, we have a federal system
and the states of the laboratories of reform and they
can, but we also have federal standards.
And that's the kind of thing 7thgraders should be understanding
and working through. Yeah, there's a there's a Pete

(04:34):
Buttigieg interview from shortlyafter the election that I've
been thinking a lot about the last few weeks, watching all the
chaos unfold with Doge and Elon Musk, where he was saying that
Republicans, there's kind of a cycle of power in government
where Republicans, when they getin power, they purposely make
government agencies worse and they make it so they run worse.
They sabotage them. And then that happens.

(04:58):
People see how poorly these government programs perform and
then they're able to call for cutting them or they're able to
say, government doesn't even work for you, why would you
bother voting for it? And so I was wondering, what are
your thoughts on that concept? And is there really like, I feel
like Democrats are at a bit of adisadvantage where it's a lot
easier to destroy something thanto build it up, especially with

(05:18):
our government. And so how do you see us kind of
like counteracting that that strategy that seems to have been
the Republican Party strategy for decades now?
I don't know if it's been the Republican Party strategy for
decades, but it's absolutely theRepublican Party strategy right
now. Specifically mosque and the
techno billionaire Bros. Remember, these guys are out to

(05:38):
destroy the US government. It's a very classic hostile
takeover like you see in business.
So you want to break up the parts and then they're
distressed parts and then you can sell them off.
That's really what's happening here.
It's a privatization plan. And it's not only a
privatization plan, it's basically a a dictatorial plan
because these guys actually think they would do it better.

(05:58):
So in the way that you just described, they're trying to
prove to the American people seeit doesn't work.
I'll give you an example. Social Security, it actually
works fine, thank you. But by taking out 12% of the
workforce, Governor O'Malley, who used to be head of the
Social Security Department, saidif you take away 12% of the

(06:20):
workforce, the whole system could collapse within two or
three months. So then, so that's what they're
doing. They're out to ruin everything.
So that then they say to the American people, see, it's not
working. The only answer is to give it to
the private sector that could dosuch a better job.
The things that the president, for instance, said the other
night and his well, it's not called the State of the Union

(06:41):
the first year, but in his speech to Congress giving all
those lies, all those that's been so debunked as we everybody
knows now, it's not transgender mice, it's transgenic mice.
And this has to do with the eradication of disease and how
important that research is. Also, when he talked about the
African LGBTQ plus program in hesaid that nation that nobody's

(07:08):
ever heard of. Meanwhile, Musk is actually
doing business in that nation. That nation said, you know,
protested that they've been treated like that in that
speech. Even more importantly for me, I
don't know what the facts are, but I know that being gay in
Uganda is punishable by death. So there are programs that we

(07:30):
are where we are spending money to help gay people in Africa.
This is no joke. So what the president is trying
to do once again is just to makeit look like all they do is
inept and horrible and a ridiculous abuse and a
ridiculous waste of money. Now, remember, Bill Clinton had
had gotten rid of, I think over 400,000 jobs, but it was through

(07:53):
a program that was a very deliberative process.
Expert. Absolutely.
But then also interesting that you say that because did you see
the New York Times article todayabout the meeting at the White
House yesterday? Yeah, Yeah.
So. Yeah, so apparently the
president apparently he said, sowe'll see what happens.
But the president said yesterday, OK, enough of this,

(08:16):
because he really heard the complaints from cabinet members.
He said from now on, Elon, your role will not be that you have
the power to just fire people. It will be recommendation and
advisory, which is what we've been told in the campaign.
And he also said from now on, it'll be a scalpel and not a
hatchet. So that would be marvelous

(08:37):
there. As we know, Musk and his hench
men, they know nothing about government.
They know nothing about these programs.
They're not taking the time to ask.
He actually said to his little team there, if you see a
regulation that seems dumb, justscratch it.
He's got the pass. It's unbelievable.
He's got the passwords into everything.
He's deleted pages. We don't know where those pages

(08:58):
all of our. Information, our Social Security
information is absolutely and the 20 year old said he's
employing. And I thought it was incredibly
ironic in the speech when Trump bragged that the era of being
ruled by unelected bureaucrats is over, as if this isn't the
ultimate example of that. The ultimate exact no and the
ultimate example of corruption. Did you see today where the FAA

(09:21):
said that the falling debris from SpaceX into up to 240
flights? They couldn't fly in until 8:00
PM yesterday. So, I mean, if you read that
article, I mean, I consider thatwhat happened yesterday, you
know, a little bit of a win. But that's absolutely what
they're trying to do is to destroy the government to then
be able to convince people that obviously democracy does not

(09:43):
work. We have to give it all to the
private sector. They're the only people who know
how to do anything. That's that's the plan.
How, how do you breakthrough to the Republican base when they do
believe, kind of circling back to what you said, that the
private sector and billionaires are the correct people to cut
government waste. How do you convince the
Republican base, the voter base,that this is actually not the

(10:06):
case? Because it just seems like
there's a a lot of misinformation on that and
voters are voting to take away Social Security or their
Medicaid benefits or things likethat.
How do you breakthrough to that that cohort?
By giving them what they should have been given for the last few
decades when Democrats were in power.
If people that had universal health care like in every other,

(10:28):
you know, every other advanced democracy, if we hadn't, you
know, the Republicans started this madness, but no Democrats
stopped it. It's been going on for 50 years.
This massive $50 trillion transfer of wealth on the bottom
90% when you have a minimum wageof $7.25 an hour.
It hasn't been changed since what, two, 2009?

(10:50):
Let me I can tell you something.There have been quite a few
Democratic presidents since then.
And so they haven't, people havenot seen the Democrats fighting
for them, even when Democrats have.
You know, Republicans don't walktheir talk, but sometimes
Democrats don't talk their walk.They, they are doing what
they're doing in closed rooms and they, they don't, they don't

(11:10):
brag enough. What I think about is when a lot
of the Democrats, during the joint session of Congress,
Congress, the speech that the president gave, they walked out
of the speech without really making any sort of fuss.
Al Green made a large fuss and Ithink that caught a lot of
headlines, but just walking out without saying anything or

(11:32):
standing up for your beliefs doesn't really do much.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, and then there were videos, you know, everybody
talked about how nasty Al Green was.
I think what he did was good. I mean, he he comes from a
district in Houston where Medicaid makes a difference
between life and death for people.
So he's not real concerned if a bunch of privileged white people

(11:53):
thought he was being impolite. And if you look in the last day
or two, there was quite a bit offootage of I think it was
Biden's last address, last Stateof the Union and how the
Republicans. Absolutely.
And by the way, if you look at American history, as you know,
that's what they doing. I mean, to what about 100 years

(12:14):
ago they, they started caning one another.
I mean, that's kind of America. I mean, look at Britain like I,
I agree with that. Yeah, this this tight?
You know what will be polite when people are dying?
Shit doesn't work. For me and Marianne, I just
wanted to touch on something we're talking about with
Democrats is I feel like when Democrats are in power, you

(12:36):
know, good things tend to happen, but at the same time, we
get a we, we don't, like you said, we don't talk about them.
So who knows that how many Americans know that Medicaid and
Medicare was started by a Democrat, generally speaking?
Well, Social Security was Franklin Roosevelt in 1932.
Medicare and Medicaid, of course.
Lyndon Johnson. Are we afraid to run on these

(12:58):
issues? Like what?
What's what's going on here? Well, it is very You know, I was
reading an article yesterday. As it turns out, the messaging
pros for the Democratic Party don't know any more than a
regular person. Duh.
You know there's power in just saying what you think.
Yes. But when you are obviously

(13:18):
trying to figure out what to think, Kamala Harris was a
perfect example of this. Somebody would ask her a
question and you could see the the wheels turning.
What am I supposed to say now, the part of the brain that
rationally analyzes an issue is not the same part of the brain
as that which decides who to vote for.
The part that decides who to vote for, who feels real to me

(13:39):
and has a spine. So every time and and it was
interesting because I saw at that time some old footage like
20 years old of her on the old Larry King show and she just
said what she thought and she was a far more attractive.
Political when she was in California when she was attorney

(14:00):
general, you see those and some on the left will criticize her
for some of her policies, but atleast she went out there and
spoke her mind and she did that a lot in California.
That's what people like, that's what people vote for.
That's why they vote. Yeah, being authentic.
And I really think, and I reallythink it was the Biden people,
to be frankly honest with you, from the beginning.
We saw this in the beginning in 2021 when she gave an interview

(14:20):
that didn't go out too well. I think she was in Honduras
about the border. I was reading that they
completely cut her off from interviews.
Well, yes, and a woman decides for herself what to say and what
not to say. I think they also did that,
though, to Governor Walls. You know, when you hear him now,
he's this cool guy. Clearly they were trying to make

(14:41):
him into someone else during thecampaign, but that's an example
rather than just being authentic.
And I, I can tell you from having been in the belly of that
beast, they don't want anyone speaking from the gut.
They they want everything vettedthrough What would be OK with
our the? Consultant class and they go
over everything and it's and it's I feel like the Republicans

(15:02):
look, I disagree with them and their rhetoric is dangerous, but
it feel like it but it but it feels like they aren't
bullshitting me. I'm not getting bullshitted by
them. Well, it's the ultimate
bullshit, but they really mean the bullshit.
Is really what? Exactly.
They mean and. Yeah, he's a lot of the people
say he's authentic. Yeah, he's authentically a jerk.
Trying to take away your healthcare?
He's authentically trying to cutyour medica.
He's authentically trying to so,but this with the Democrats not

(15:26):
providing what should have been provided if you were really
aligning your policies with the principle of unabashed advocacy
for the working people, the United States.
If the Democrats have been held holding to that, this would
never have happened if Barack Obama had simply been the
president that he campaigned saying he would be in 2008.

(15:48):
He was given the White House, hewas given the Senate, and he was
given. The House 60 senators.
Yeah, but but he was given it for 70 days.
Like, hold on, let's let's, let's, let's remember this is a
very different coalition to two.Years he had, he had control.
He didn't have the 60, but he had control for two years.
And there were things which if George Bush did them, we would

(16:10):
scream bloody murder. If Barack Obama did, then we go,
oh, poor baby, they wouldn't lethim when there was absolutely no
evidence that he had even tried.So the Democratic Party has
developed this bizarre and very dysfunctional codependent
relationship with the Democraticelite.
When I was growing up, the Democrats were the freethinkers.

(16:32):
We were the cool people. If you look at MAGA, for
instance, they will put these guys in power, but then if once
they get there, MAGA doesn't like what they're doing, MAGA
lets them know. And that even includes Trump.
What has happened in the last few years.
And I, I have experienced it on such a level, it's almost cult
like. No, whatever the DNC says, the

(16:54):
DNC says with Biden the deal, who the hell are they and what
do they know? And they thought in 2024 that,
you know, according to their supposedly superior wisdom,
Trump was such a threat to democracy, you see, that we must
suppress democracy in our house just to get Biden elected

(17:16):
because we've decided he's the one who could beat him because
he beat him last time. Well, that's like saying to an
actor, you won the Oscar last year, so you'll win the Oscar
this year. It's a different movie.
It's a different script, and it's a different moment.
So for me, if we're really goingto look at root cause here, I

(17:38):
feel that there have been a lot of ways that the Democratic
Party, starting with Clinton, sort of tried to have it both
ways. Wanted people to feel like we we
feel your pain and we want to help you, but not so far as to
cross the line beyond which we would be offending our corporate
donors. So the disingenuous nature of

(18:00):
the Democratic Party, too often the hypocrisy of the Democratic
Party, if you has been a problem, and if you have even
you were talking about history. If you have even the most
rudimentary knowledge of history, you know that nothing
is more dangerous than large groups of desperate people.

(18:21):
They form a Petri dish out of which all manner of societal and
personal dysfunction becomes almost inevitable.
And that always includes ideological capture by dangerous
forces and often an attraction to a political strongman.
So by allowing this $50 trilliontransfer of wealth, by allowing

(18:41):
this drift away from resources for the from the public sphere
that allowed people to thrive, Iwant to tell you guys something
that it will seem like I'm describing a fairy land to you,
OK. In the 1970's, the average
American couple could afford a house.
In the 1970's, the average American couple could afford for

(19:04):
one parent to stay home and be with the kids all day if they
chose. In the 1970's, the average
American could afford a yearly vacation and they could afford
to send their kids and a car andthey could afford to send their
kids to college. When I was your age, when I was
your age, I didn't have any money, but you kind of didn't
need to. We were kids, we were young, we

(19:25):
were blah, blah, blah. But we all had hope.
Oh, the times will change. There was a sense in the
culture, there wasn't this desperation in the air.
There wasn't this. It's so hard in the air.
And, and I'm sorry, Democrats were presidents.
We had control a lot of that time as well.
Yeah, so I'm someone who's very prone to desperation and I don't

(19:48):
know, I think it might come froma place of like, like I do have,
you know, I'm a human, so I havea systems of belief, but I also
address every issue kind of on the merits that I, I love paying
attention to the details on policy and addressing every
issue on the merits. And right now it's like 1 of the
worst times to I think be someone who loves looking at the
details of everything and just maximizing positive outcomes,

(20:10):
especially with like those, you know, and things like that.
And so just as someone who has kind of desperation about every.
Issue of kind of how? How do we hold hope in moments
like this? Well, first of all, if you're
not depressed right now, what's wrong with you?
And that's been true for years. Sometimes feeling bad about

(20:31):
something is a functional, not adysfunctional, response.
The Americans to be worried about are those who don't think
there's a problem. There's a serious, serious
problem. So right now, but the I've been
saying if if you're not depressed, what's wrong with
you? I've been saying it for a long
time because something has now just reached the surface as

(20:53):
these all out horrifying symptoms of a disease has been
with us for quite a while. So the first thing you do is to
realize this is a very serious moment.
Our grief is understandable. Our panic is understandable.
Democracy is under assault. Whether he's a Russian asset or

(21:17):
not, he's mimicking the behaviorof one.
If you were an enemy of, of thiscountry, would you be doing
anything differently than is happening right now?
I'm sure you guys know who Curtis Jarvan is.
You're becoming very aware of the whole techno bro plan here.

(21:38):
This is serious. These people find democracy
inconvenient to their purposes. And this is, is a long festering
plan really to destroy the government so that the private
sector led by a few, you know, billionaire dictatorial class
can run everything. So if you're not depressed by
that, you're not even here. OK?

(22:01):
But the point is, we've had tough, desperate times before.
We had slavery in this country, and a generation rose up.
They did not have the power, butthey had the truth on their
side. They had justice on their side.
They rose up, they pushed back. And we went from slavery to
abolition. We went from the institutional

(22:22):
suppression of women to the 19thAmendment.
We went from the Gilded Age to the establishment of organized
labor. We went from segregation to the
civil rights movement, the CivilRights Act and the Voting Rights
Act. Those were very, very tough
things too. Sometimes we need to identify

(22:42):
with the to identify the problems in our past.
But I think it's important to identify with the problem
solvers. So we have had it so relatively
easy that we haven't cut our teeth even when we should have
been. The fact that we allowed this to
happen, the fact that we listened to the DNC starting

(23:06):
with the suppression of Bernie, even the suppression of me.
What was everybody thinking? How much more obvious could it
have been? The de amplification and the
peripheralization of anybody whowas saying this is fucked up and
if we don't show up for the working people, the United
States, we're not going to have a shot.
So first of all, David, if you look at history, let's not be

(23:29):
the first generation to wimp outon doing what it takes to put
this country back on track. Surely they had desperate days,
Surely they had desperate days. Now I because I believe very
strongly and just like in healing the body, you have to

(23:49):
have an integrative approach. It's not just external remedies,
but it's also psychological and emotional aspects.
This is a whole system's breakdown.
And so it's going to take a whole system's response.
So at this point, it's not just what we do, who we have to be,
it's who we have to be in order to discern what to do in order

(24:12):
to be able to do it. This is an assault on our
nervous system. They know exactly what they're
doing. They're not just assaulting us
on the level of policy. Those tanks are running through
town on an attitudinal level. But it's a it's a, it's a
classic fascists don't even think about fighting, don't even
think about pushing back. But people are So what they say

(24:34):
in a a get into the solution. Anything you do on any given
day, David. And by the way, when you look at
what happened to the White Houseyesterday, the fact that the the
cabinet members said this isn't working.
The fact that the head of the RNC is telling, you know,
Congress people and in the Republican Party don't even have

(24:57):
town halls. It's because people are
participating in screaming aboutthis.
And that's what we need to be. Beyond that, whatever you do,
David, that is your way of taking care of your nervous
system. It could be religious, it could
be spiritual, it could be secular.
But it has, whether it's yoga, whether it's prayer, whether

(25:18):
it's meditation. But this idea of thinking it can
only be handled from here up is obsolete 20th century thinking
when I was called fringe. No, they're fringe political
system, particularly the Democrats.
They are stuck in 1995 somewhere.

(25:38):
And so for us to be able to handle the grief, we are in a
catastrophic moment, we are so who who do you have to be within
yourself to handle that? Because a lot of the people who
actually brought this on us are now crumbling because the only,
the only mode of a problem solving that they know on that

(26:04):
level, we've been checkmater. So we have to become, as
Einstein said, we will not solvethe problems of the world from
the level of thinking we were out when we created them.
And that's why what's happening now is you guys, you guys are
not even 20th century people. You're not even 20th century
people. Even it were any of you even

(26:25):
born in the 20th century? No, even if you had been, you
would have been there for a few years while you learn to walk.
The mindset of the 21st century is integrative.
It's holistic. David's ability to handle this
psychologically and emotionally is as important as your
understanding of of policy. Now, the guys who now run the

(26:47):
world, particularly the Democratic Party, they don't
know from that. They call that crazy because
they're stuck in the 20th century.
You're not. And so exercise, make sure
you've got those endorphins. Appreciate that.
It's an attack on your nervous system, whether it has to do
with food, stay away from inordinate drugs, use of drugs

(27:10):
or alcohol. We've we've got to be, we've got
to be athletes for those. You've got to, you've got to
give yourself the container to be able to do this.
Does that make sense? Yeah, it I it definitely does.
And I I think one thing that would be more aligning with

(27:30):
being more genuine, as with our party and with our politicians,
is mixing the personal with the political.
And I appreciate you mention cutting your teeth because for
all of us, we we still, for all intents and purposes in
politics, have our baby teeth. We haven't, we haven't gotten to
that next level yet. I'm 21.
All of us are 21 or 22, I believe.

(27:51):
Right. Yeah.
You're 21. I'm 19.
I'm 19. Do you know how how old James
Madison was when he who wrote the US Constitution?
21 those guys were. So young.
Check it out. Check out the the ages of the of
the of the founders. But I, I wanted to ask you, you

(28:13):
had previously mentioned that your your 20s, you described it
as your wasted decade. What, what advice would you have
for people like us, for our listeners who are in their early
20s or what? How do you mix the personal and
the political? How do you, how do you push
forward in your 20s? What, what, what?
Which would be focused on learning what.

(28:34):
Yeah. A lot has been well, my entire
life and career have been mischaracterized, but one of
them is the idea that I was sucha bad girl in the 20s.
I simply was in my 20s. My 20s were very garden variety.
Drug, sex and alcohol is what you do in your 20s.
Now maybe you don't specificallyin your life, but the idea of

(28:57):
being wild and crazy and being, that's what the 20s are and the
20s are hard. The point is they're not a
mental illness. They're hard.
You're individuating, you're having your first love affairs,
you're having they're hard. And particularly now with the
economics the way they are. So what I would say to you is
don't let them and that they do this to women even worse than to

(29:21):
the men. Don't let them make you think
that because the 20s are hard, there's something wrong with
you. Don't let pharmacy you know.
Don't, don't let a multibillion dollar industry convince you
that there's something wrong with you because life is hard in
your 20s. That's number one.
Number two, if you're old enoughthat they would put a gun in

(29:42):
your hand and tell you to go fight a war, then you're old
enough to own your own opinion. And your power has nothing to do
with your age. You know, the older you are, the
more you know certain things andthe younger you are, the more
you know certain other things. You guys know much more than I
do about what's happening now. I know much more than you do

(30:05):
about certain patterns that comearound over and over again.
And that's why this intergenerational thing is
really a significant relational pattern.
Every in in the in the Talmud, it says every generation has its
own wisdom. When you read about some of the

(30:25):
most famous people in history and how old they have been, some
of the greatest artists. Now, I'm not saying have a of an
overinflated view of what you'recapable of when you haven't
experienced certain things. I'm not saying that I mean every
generation is arrogant, but I think all of the generations of
all the people on the earth right now have taken that to a,

(30:47):
to an extreme. I also think that we are too
divided about generations. We, I think this is really
served to disunite us all. Identity politics has, I think
we need to start thinking about generations as whoever is an
adult at the time. I don't care if you're 18 or 80.

(31:08):
It's your job to think about what's happening in America and
what we're going to do about it.But in terms of your being young
and not going through certain things, I think the 20s is a
time of exploration. You guys, I assume none of you
have children yet. The serious, those kinds of
serious things will come, but they're not here yet.

(31:30):
Enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself while you're
young. You know it's you can't when
you're young. You can't really imagine not
being young anymore. So don't forget to enjoy it.
But also the the pain of that. I mean, it's a tough decade, but
just Please remember, doesn't mean there's something wrong

(31:51):
with you, David. I can tell that's been done to
you. You know, David gets anxious or
David. No, David's, David's going
through what it is to really become a man, to become
everything. It's hard.
That doesn't mean something's wrong with David and we're.
Thankful that David doesn't havekids too.

(32:11):
Well, it's not time, you know, there are seasons in life and
he's going through everything that he needs to go through.
And in time, very different things will be happening.
But don't miss this decade. Don't miss the fun of it.
Don't miss hanging out, listening to music.
Don't miss, you know, don't missthe lusciousness of it.
Don't miss this. Don't miss the sex of it.

(32:32):
Don't miss it. Don't miss the all that and
that. And there is, there's a beauty
to every decade, but the pain ofit is just #1 like I said, it's
a painful moment in history. And number two, 20s are hard,
but they're not a mental illness.
I love that and got it. Really appreciate it that that's

(32:54):
like awesome. I'm definitely going to think
about that going forward. But I wanted to shift gears to
swing a little random I wanted to ask you about.
You mentioned movies a couple oftimes today, and one of my
favorite things I've watched of yours was an interview you did
with James Cameron, the Avatar director.
Avatar. And so I was just curious
because I know that was a coupleyears ago, did you see the

(33:16):
second avatar and did you like it and I.
Didn't I didn't. I didn't.
I can't believe I didn't. I just thought Avatar was such a
perfect illustration of what's happening on the planet, told in
cartoon form. I was, you know, people just
were so hideous towards me. And during all that.

(33:39):
And because I, I pointed out to James in that interview that
when I was in the Middle East and I had been talking to some
Israelis and Palestinians, they were talking about that movie.
People just, you know, just excoriated me for that.
And then we showed them actuallythe press, you know, the, the,

(34:01):
the press about the fact that many Palestinians have said that
they felt that they were so muchlike the figures in Avatar.
But no, I haven't seen. Isn't that ridiculous that I
haven't seen? Is is 2 as good?
I thought it was much better in my opinion.
It's like one of my favorite movies the last few years.
But. Well, I have to, you know, he's

(34:23):
got something like 8 planned or something.
Yeah, I think the third one's supposed to be this year, so I
guess you got time. I wanted to see it in a theater.
I wanted to see it with the glasses.
I I didn't want to see it just on the computer.
And then circumstances, I think it came out when I, I was
recovering from surgery or something.
I anyway, I didn't, but thank you for telling me that because

(34:43):
I'll make sure I get the opportunity.
I will again. He's such a genius.
We could really use him right now.
People always say Marianne Boley, you focus too much on
politics. I so funny story, I've kind of
been involved and interested in politics since I was in the 7th
grade 2015. I was a pretty big Bernie
supporter. They called me a Bernie bro back

(35:05):
in the day. But you know, I, I was a big
Bernie fan and I think that's why I got into politics.
And in 2020 I was when I was 17 years old.
I have a memory of you on stage with Bernie in Texas and, and
you were and I think you would you would just endorsed him.
You ended your campaign. And we all talked about how, you
know, we all were watching thosedebates when we were 1716 and,

(35:26):
and how there was a moment whereyou turned to the camera and you
spoke directly to the camera. And that was one of the most
authentic moments of the debate.Ben and I were actually talking
about this last night. So I have this memory of you on
stage with Bernie Sanders and, and we're speaking.
Was it in Houston? I'm not too sure it was in, it
was in Texas. It was some part of Texas.
Well, the after the, the, the one you're talking about where I
went and endorsed him and all ofthat, that was in Austin.

(35:48):
But that debate that you're talking about, there was one in
Florida and one in Detroit. Yeah, and we.
Remember, of course they wouldn't allow them this time.
Even though, yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of the whole
conversation. Circling back to your 2020
campaign. Before we enter your 2024
campaign real quick, what are some things that you learned
that you were shocked about, about either the American

(36:09):
people? I mean, we talked about how we
kind of know that the DNC hasn'talways been the most
transparent, right? But what are some things that
you learned meeting with people?And I know you've been doing
this your whole life and you've been out there, but what are
some things you learned steppinginto the political arena that
you didn't know before? I didn't know how corrupt the
system is. And by the way, the difference

(36:30):
between 2020 and 2024 was quite great.
I was given approximate that which would approximate a fair
shot in 2020. And as a minor candidate, I felt
that I was given, you know, I there was some things that were
unfair and uncool, but in general I was given by the
medians, etcetera. 2024 was really vicious and dark and

(36:52):
corrupt. The guys at top decided it was
Joe and then the de amplification of of my campaign
and anyone else who wanted to take him on in partnership with
CNN and MSNBC, the character assassination, it was very dark.
So I have learned that the system is very corrupt.
However, in both both campaigns,I also learned that while the

(37:16):
system was even worse than I feared, the American people are
even more wonderful than I wouldhave hoped.
And David, when you said where do we, where do you get your
faith right now? That's where I get my faith.
The American people are a decentpeople.
This what has happened here is not the people's fault.
I think that's so important. And even when I mentioned a

(37:38):
couple minutes ago that, you know, they're shouting at these
Republican congressmen be the wehave 69 million Americans who
get a Social Security check every month.
Now. Social Security has never missed
a payday in its eighty years since Franklin Roosevelt signed

(38:00):
it into law. You guys, this is something
where an example, the intergenerational thing, you
guys can't imagine yet, and you have decades before you will,
what it means when your body starts breaking down, what it
means that your usefulness is greatly diminished in terms of

(38:25):
participation in the economy. You can't really imagine the
level of vulnerability that comes about.
And for millions and millions ofpeople, once they reach a
certain age, and that's Social Security check, which they

(38:45):
earned is the reason they can have dinner, the reason they're
not living on the street, which they're aware 700,000 people
are. It's the reason they can have
even a modicum of dignity in their lives.
So you want to see the spirit ofthe American people that I

(39:06):
believe in, Watch what happens if those Social Security checks
Start Stop coming. You watch what happens to
Medicaid if if they go after Medicaid, which right now
they're proposing to do an 8000 and $80 billion cut.
So what do I get my faith from? I get my faith from the

(39:26):
knowledge of history. We push back slavery, we pushed
back institutional suppression of women, We established
organized labor. They desegregated the South.
And knowledge of American history makes you see that there
has always been baked into the cake.
It's been, it's our characterological DNA.

(39:47):
It's been here literally from the beginning.
We are both, and we have reiterated in every generation
the struggle between the most enlightened principles that have
ever been imbued in the in the founding of a country and
genuinely evil forces that have who find real democracy

(40:09):
inconvenient to their ideological and or financial
purposes and have proven that they would perpetrate all manner
of atrocities in order to block it.
It's no different today. It's no different today.
We're just the circles just comearound again.
So my my faith though, comes from what I've seen on both and

(40:32):
both campaigns. And that's what makes it both
kind of was heartbreaking for me, but also gives me hope.
The American people, what happened, for instance, in 2024,
the DNC acted like a suppressant.
It's like all this energy was bubbling up from the top.
This was true with Bernie and itwas true with me.

(40:54):
All this energy bubbling up fromthe bottom.
But they're like a top, you know, a lid on it.
Keep a lid on it, keep a lid on it.
And because I didn't have, you know, I didn't have the fame of
Bernie. I didn't have the whatever
Bernie plus games that were played on me that would not have
worked with a man, with the senator, all that stuff.

(41:19):
I couldn't breakthrough that andI regret that.
But what I saw, I got almost half a million primary votes,
which given the level of de amplification, is pretty
impressive. And I hope that next time
somebody wanders out there giving that kind of a message
that the psyops used against them will not be so successful,

(41:43):
because I'm sure the system willdo what the system does.
But I also think that there's a new, there's a new day at the
DNC. And I don't think that Ken
Martin, Ken Martin will. He'll do his best to keep that
kind of thing from happening in 28, I think.
I believe, I think I've, we actually have, we've been in
contact with him and he's actually kind of, he's been nice

(42:05):
to us and we, we're trying to get him on the podcast.
He was supposed to come on back then.
He's really busy. But I like a lot of the stuff
that he's been saying in that like trans and I and I just
think of the Democrats. I think the division of
Democrats, the perception of Democrats for a lot of people in
America is that, especially after the whole Biden thing, you
want to admit it or not, We, we seem like the party that covers
up stuff. We don't seem transparent.

(42:26):
And it's exactly what you're saying is that we don't seem
authentic. It feels like we have all these
talking heads that go out and, and, and send out messages, Hey,
say this, say that. And, and I can't, there's so
much to get into the consoling class.
And I think that's brain rotted people in DC and and Democrats,
there's so much to talk about that.
But I think I'm, I'm excited with Ken Martin being the, the
DNC chair and I'm really lookingforward to having an actual

(42:50):
conversation in 20/26/2028. I like a couple people out
there. Maybe you'll run again and I'll
serve. I'll be on that campaign.
But I I'm excited. I'm excited about the future.
Even though like David and I always grapple about this, I
always call him a doomer. I'm like, David, stop dooming.
I'll call him in the middle of the night and he's dooming.
He's texting me in the middle ofthe night.
Ukraine isn't. Can I defend myself can I defend

(43:10):
myself yes. So I'm very OK, I have wait
speak. I have, I have a good, I have a
good opinion on, on people and their own responses to things in
their own lives and their feelings of justice and, you
know, equality and what they deserve.
And I think like the average person, if you speak about, you
know, democracy in the simplest terms, you're going to get very

(43:32):
favorable responses. But I'm just concerned about,
you know, like you were saying, the systems that you've noticed
throughout your life, Marian, and those undue influences and
very complex systems coming together.
And that's what keeps me up at night is all those confluences
and like very complex ways that they don't come up and political
discourse, they don't even come up in like the second or third,

(43:52):
like sub level of political discourse.
They're very deep and they're some people don't even notice
them at all. And that's those kind of things
that, you know, worry me, those broad historical trends, like
the intersection of many systems.
So that's that's why I'm you're right.
You're right. I mean, if you only look at this
through a material lens, we're cooked.

(44:14):
I like the word. But I don't believe in just the
material lens. You know, I have a sub stack and
yesterday the article was about conviction and conviction is a
force multiplier. And the problem we have is that

(44:36):
what is that in the Yeats poem, the lead, the, the, the best
lack all conviction. The crouching towards Bethlehem
poem, the famous poem, what we have is right now obviously a,
a, a tyranny by minority, but that minority of extreme right,
they are very convicted. So the way the power of

(44:56):
conviction operates is if you have 10 people who are convicted
that we should destroy democracyand 100 people who know, I
really like democracy. And like if, if you want, I have
Thursdays between 2:00 and 4:00,I could show up for something.
If you have 10 convicted people and 100 kind of sort of

(45:18):
sometimes when it's convenient, convicted, then the 10 people,
their views will carry the day. This is something in us that has
to stand up. Now there is something in US.
I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
That it's a characterological, it's a it's a fierceness that

(45:43):
patriotism demands of us now. I, I love that.
I wanted to ask you in 2020, I was also a big Bernie Bro and I
remember one of those first debates seeing you and I, I was
so impressed. We were just talking about it.
The when you like turn direct tocamera and you kind of did your
like what I would say to Trump basically on the debate stage.

(46:04):
And, and I think that's aged really well in my opinion.
And you were saying like this man has reached into the psyche
of America and he's harnessed fear for political purposes.
I'm going to harness love and I'll meet you on the
battlefield. And I first of all, I thought it
was just like insanely well executed and way more
charismatic and strong than everyone else on that stage for

(46:25):
the most part. But also, I, I think you kind of
touched into something deeper where Democrats maybe tried to
fight Trump like a normal politician and just try to like,
talk about some policies that are bad that he wants to propose
or say, actually, this thing we're going to do is going to
save you X amount of money. But that it was really Trump was
running as something deeper and it was had kind of like grabbed

(46:48):
the minds of Americans. And I don't think Democrats
really attempted to counteract that.
Is that something that you feel like has become even more true
since you said it in 2020? Absolutely.
I mean, this time even more so. And in that same debate, I said,
if you think this wonkiness willbe able to handle the dark
psychic force of the collectivized hatred this man

(47:09):
has unleashed in this country, then I'm afraid the Democrats
are going to see some very dark days.
That was my line if I had even just said dark psychological
forces. But because I said dark psychic
forces, I was the the doppelganger of me as joke

(47:29):
crystal lady crazy, which is an ancient trope, by the way,
against women who color outside the lines who she's crazy, she's
crazy. But boy does that age well.
If you think you're walking sis going to be able to take on the
dark psychic force of collectivized hatred.
This man is unleashed in this country.

(47:49):
Then I'm afraid the Democrats are going to see some very dark
days. And boy, we are seeing some very
dark days. You know, you were talking about
Bella, about the midterms. I just, I think we all just wish
it was happening tomorrow. And I'm also my biggest fear,
you know, David was talking about just, you know, the fears
that you can get into. My fear has to do with with Elon
Musk. Elon Musk scares me much more

(48:10):
than Donald Trump. Does I agree he's the most
terrifying person on the planet?Absolutely.
And his, I mean, a lot can happen from now and then, but
between now and then, the fact that he's in everything.
My concern is about the vote in 2026.
I the way things are going, I have no doubt the American

(48:30):
people would reject this insanity.
But whether they will allow, given his unbelievable power to,
to really allow a free democratic election in 26,
that's that's where, that's where my panic goes when I allow
myself to go there. Well, I mean, I guess the good

(48:54):
news is that we don't have, you know, federal elections.
Luckily, that's what keeps me from that's what everybody's
told me. That's what I've heard is that's
very, that's the last step you were.
Saying for him to be able to do it and fill 50 states,
especially for the house, you'reright.
So it's really the house that we're talking about.
And those are? Yeah.
Well, yeah. And I mean, even if, you know,

(49:15):
there was luckily, yeah. But I've always heard that the
last step in authoritarian transition is, is complete
faking of election results. But you know, we're also moving
very quickly in terms of authoritarian techniques.
So it's absolutely, I don't know.
I I don't know. I think absolutely we are he's
some, I think he has capabilities so far beyond just

(49:37):
like common discourse that I don't even want to speculate on.
So the. The psychological and emotional
and even spiritual powers of radical availability at this
point is key, that we all be radically available, radically
receptive. Gandhi was asked who is the

(49:59):
leader of the Indian independence movement, and his
answer was the small still voicewithin in all of our lives.
It could be your social media, It could be something you're
going through it with school, what you're learning.
It could be your own education. It could be participation.
Well, listen, what you're doing.It could be this plug, it is
this podcast. Anything any of us are doing to

(50:23):
generate the energy, Anything, any day, if you generated energy
in the direction of the solution, that was it.
Because we all have to remember there are millions of people,
millions and millions and millions of people who feel
about all this exactly as we do,who are having basically the

(50:43):
same conversation we're having in their own way, not only in
this country, but actually all around the world.
And I think that really helps. Just remember, you're not a
stranded on a little island here.
Like, doesn't anybody see this? People do see this.
People are freaking out. But as long as you do anything
that puts out energy and the door, that's why I made a video.

(51:06):
We were editing it right before I came on saying to people,
let's, let's see this meeting atthe White House on Wednesday as
a win for every, every tweet youput out there, every TikTok you
made, every, you know, and I'm so proud of people who are out
there. I'm proud of Senator Merkley
actually asking on the Senate floor, is he a Russian asset?

(51:29):
I'm proud of some of these youngTik Tokers, particularly the
women. I'm sorry, can we give it to the
women who are some of the stuff that's being exposed out there
and being said? So I think, you know, there's a
lot of you, you, you owe it to your country not to allow
yourself to spiral down. And for you, David, you've got

(51:51):
to see a floor. It's it's it's like somewhere
around your waist when you feel yourself spiraling down, there's
a point past which it cannot do you or anyone in the world any
good for you to go further down.And at that point, you know, you
say, you know, cynicism is an excuse for not helping.

(52:13):
And this is like I said, it's internal powers that we're
having to harness and navigate right now.
I think our generation and by our generation, I mean all the
adults at this point have becometoo.
We coddle our anxiety too much. You guys were trained to.
And I'll tell you something. That's what a lot of people like

(52:33):
about Donald Trump is he's this is the way it is.
We got to be a little more. This is the way it is.
We we need. You know, if I become president,
I would be as audacious as he is, but just within the law and
on the completely end of the political spectrum.
Because, and This is why I thought you were going, Bella, a
while ago and then you went somewhere else.

(52:53):
The Republicans win elections, and to them, that's our mandate.
And they're right. That is your mandate.
And then, and they use power now, they abuse it.
They go too far. But Democrats will get well.
We didn't. Really, We don't have a mandate,
the parliamentarian said. We can't and we appear

(53:16):
spineless. They're shameless.
We're spineless. At least try.
At least show that you're trying.
To that's the thing with, that'sthe thing with Obama at least
try. Don't give up on the negotiation
anyway. No.
And I and I every. It's me.
The Biden's real quick. So Biden, the Biden
administrators credit they did try on student loans.
I know people who I have friendswho worked in the Department of

(53:37):
Education. I agree with that.
They got stopped, they did it again, they got stopped, they
did it again and it's things. With that.
That they actually tried with American people saw it, and he
got credit on that. So that's what I'm.
Saying that is, go and fight andtry, and if you don't get it,
guess what? The American people will be able
to see that you at least tried for them.
And he needed to articulate thatthat's what we're talking about

(53:58):
before they don't top their wall.
That was hard, yeah. If you, if you don't push to the
maximum legal bounds you can within the power you have, you
do democracy like a dangerous disservice.
But to me like it's like equallyas dangerous, not equally as
dangerous, but like information wise that you, you don't show
people how democracy works, especially in a federal system

(54:19):
as opposed to or a presidential system as opposed to a
parliamentary system. You have to, you have to like
show that you have power when you win or people don't care.
So. That goes back to education,
though. What you just said is above the
head of the average American, and it shouldn't be.
The average American should, should have, should be able to
understand what you just said, and the average American would

(54:39):
not. Access to education, like access
to healthcare, like access to educational and economic
opportunity is within the purview of a shrinking group of
people. And then they turned to you.
And to me it said, no, you're the elite we got to fight
against. No, no, no, you've got to

(54:59):
completely upside down those whoare educ.
I mean, it's almost like the Chinese revolution around here
sometimes, the Cultural Revolution.
We got to get rid of the thinking people.
I don't think so. More people just need to be
taught to think much earlier. And the Democrats were there
when it happened. I'm sorry, the Democrats.
Can we stay on this top? Can you explain a little bit

(55:20):
more what you saw in 2024? You were brave enough to stand
up to the establishment. You were the one to say I'm a
free thinker and I think this iswrong.
I think we need a change. Can you talk a little bit more
about 2024 coming back and challenging them?
Like what did you? What was your experience?
I felt that only I, I, I felt that the Democratic Party had

(55:41):
strayed from its unequivocal, unabashed advocacy for the
working people of the United States.
And I felt that anything less than that would not be able to
defeat Trump in 2024, that we had to stand for universal
health care. We had to stand for Medicare for
all. We had to talk to people about
remember in 20 in 2016, Bernie and Hillary No, Bernie and Trump

(56:08):
were the two people in 2016 who said to the American people, the
system is rigged against you andyou have every right to be mad.
The difference is Bernie meant it.
Trump just saw it as a way to close the deal.
Hillary made the fatal error of saying everything's great.
Let's just continue with the success of the last eight years.

(56:29):
There were millions of Americanswho were like what success lady,
I'm drowning here. And if the and I don't know if
the if the DNC had not put theirhands on the scale, none of us
will ever know. I don't know.
Had they not put their hands on the scale, I don't know if
Hillary or Bernie would have wonthe primary.
But whoever it was, Trump would never have been president

(56:51):
because Democrats would have felt good about the election.
That's what I believe and that'swhat the polls actually
indicated. But the polls didn't even matter
to that elite. So that was in 2016.
So you probably know that after the 2016 election.
Are you all aware of the court case that was brought by some ex

(57:13):
Bernie? Right?
So the courts are unbelievable, but they decided in favor of the
DNC when the DNC said, hey, we're a private corporation, we
don't owe people a fair election.
It's all performance. That's that.
Sorry, I was going to say that sounds exactly the same to me as

(57:33):
when Texas was defending excluding black people from all
white primaries. That's exactly what it is.
That's exactly what I thought. I'm sorry, just.
No different. So in 2024, I felt.
So in 2020, I knew I'd be a, a minor candidate.
But like I said before, I felt Ihad some things to say and I
felt I was given, you know, some, some something

(57:57):
approximating fair opportunity to express myself in 2024.
I knew not just because of his age, but I could feel, you know,
I've been, I have a career of over 40 years.
And I knew that that what happened in 2016 was the anger

(58:18):
of people that was harnessed forpolitical purposes.
In 2024. What I felt out there was the
despair of people, unsustainablelevels of despair.
And I did not feel that Joe Biden was responding to that
despair in the ways that were necessary.
And I kept waiting for someone to run.

(58:41):
I kept waiting, well, maybe, I don't know, Pritzker will run.
Maybe somebody will run somebody.
And then I realized, nobody's going to.
And I went, well, I will becausewe have to give the American
people. And they were all just sitting
back because the DNC had said, no, we're going with with Biden.

(59:03):
And by the way, they promulgatedsuch lies.
We don't primary a sitting president.
Well, hello, Lyndon Johnson was the sitting president when
Eugene McCarthy primarried him by Teddy Kennedy, Eugene
McCarthy. So Eugene McCarthy primary
Johnson and and then Bobby Kennedy senior.

(59:24):
And that is actually what made Johnson drop out because he did
poorly in New Hampshire in comparison to Eugene McCarthy.
So if people had a primaried Biden, it would have become very
clear very fast that he was in some level of cognitive decline.
And what they did was right after I announced, I did an

(59:48):
interview on ABC with Jonathan Karl and somebody up there went
get rid of her. Their decision had been made.
And she's a spoiler where you can't be a spoiler when you're
running as a Democrat. You know, this is basic civics.
Once again, too many even Democrats in this codependent.
Oh, no, no, we cannot entertain anyone but Biden.

(01:00:09):
We're going with Biden. We're going with Biden.
Well, that's not democracy. Democracy would have handled
this. The way to fight a threat to
democracy is through more democracy.
So they were not amused and werequite vicious.
So anytime people talk about howvicious the Republicans are, I'm

(01:00:32):
like, well, guys, don't kid yourself.
Did that answer your question? I'm sorry.
But did that answer your question, Max did it?
I'm sorry. Yes, sorry, no, I mean, I, I,
I'm I was interested in hearing your perspective since you and
it was it was Dean Phillips, right.
We're the only ones who. Yeah.
I ran and then soon after, me, Bobby Kennedy.

(01:00:56):
The fact that we lost the Wellness community to the
Republicans, it just devastates me.
And I, you know, you were mentioning the, the debate stage
in 2020 when I pointed out that we didn't have a sickness care
system, we didn't have a healthcare system, we had a
sickness care system. And that in order to deal with

(01:01:18):
that, we would have to look at our food policies, our chemical
policies, our agricultural policies.
And then whoever it was, Chuck Todd or whomever didn't get the
microwave from that woman, we, most of the food warriors that
have been out there, most of thefood activists have been
Democrats. And the fact that we let Bobby
Kennedy take all that to the Democrats.

(01:01:40):
Bobby tried to call Kamala. And it's kind of like how she
wouldn't go on Joe Rogan. She wouldn't even meet with him.
She wouldn't even take his call.The Democrats had been acting
like they were trying to shrink their own base.
Like you have to be good enough to be a Democrat.
Like you have to audition to be a Democrat.
Anyway, I hope that some those lessons will be learned by

(01:02:01):
people such as yourselves. There will be others.
I hope that in 2028, what they're doing right now is
already talking, like you said, about the Whitmers.
And I like Pritzker, I have to say.
The traditional people I do like.
Do you like do you like Wes Moore from Maryland?
I have his book. Yeah, yeah, I do like Wes Moore.
I think he probably has some some more little growing, you

(01:02:25):
know more, you know, going to do.
But yes, he's a That's what I. Like about him?
He seems that way. And Pritzker, I'm I'm not real
fond of the real corporatists like Whitmer and Newsome and
same old, same old. I don't think that will be
enough. And there might be some other
voices that we don't even know about.
Democrats have got to get over this idea that you have to be on

(01:02:46):
the club. The Republicans don't make that
mistake. Vivek Ramaswamy, Whomever the
the democratic elite feel that the qualification that's
necessary is that you're qualified to perpetuate the
machine as they already run it. And what do you, I know he's a
little bit more, I know he's a little bit probably more
conservative than you, but what would you think about someone

(01:03:08):
like Mark Cuban fitting in that like outsider thing?
I know he's a billionaire, so obviously there's from Texas
issues there, but I I think he probably would be pretty
successful electorally in my opinion.
What? What are your thoughts?
Well, you know, I, I listen, I saw that last year and I
thought, you know, that's so Democratic Party Mark Cubans
from outside the system. They don't have a problem with
it because he's a white male billionaire.

(01:03:29):
Whereas, you know, I was a cuckoo, crazy crystal lady.
So as as a woman, I bristled a little bit.
I think I will be with everybodyelse.
Like we just got to win and 28. It's so important.
I I'm not a purely test type person.
I've heard Cuban say some thingsthat I, I, I thought were cool,
I like. What he's doing with his
company, the the drug, I actually think that's something
that I respect. Yeah, yes, yes.

(01:03:51):
Although I would rather he say Medicare for all.
Yeah, You know, I, I, but, yeah,I mean, I, I think it's hard is
in the right place. I hate the fact that we've come
to the point where unless you'rea billionaire, you're not.
But yeah, I mean, I think we've all got to fall in line to the
extent that let's just have a let's have an election.

(01:04:14):
There need to be debates. We need to hear what everybody
says. That's what a primary should be.
The American, the the Democraticvoters need an opportunity to
hear what everyone is offering. That's what we need to stand for
democracy. We need to stand for no small
group of people deciding it's Cuban or deciding it's Westmore,
deciding it's foot score or deciding it's Gretchen.

(01:04:35):
None of that, none of that, noneof that.
It's got to be well, let that, let that, that the press and the
party knows your job is to facilitate democracy, not to
seek to engineer it or manipulate it.
And there should be debates and we should all hear from the
people and get to know the people you know, unfiltered by
gatekeepers and. Come on, a progressive podcast,

(01:04:58):
maybe? Absolutely, baby.
I hope so. And listen, by the time it's
three years from now, which is what there will be, I'm sure
that your podcast will be. And if they're smart, they will
see that's what the Republicans did.
The Republican would have been on the equivalent of your
podcast. Yeah, they went on those types
of podcasts that weren't inherently political, but they
were speaking to that audience. And, and I think just real

(01:05:19):
quick, the shift amongst young men, the reason why we created
this podcast, I think we all spoke about it right after the
election was we'd actually, I knew Max and Dylan, David and
Ben actually met through Twitterand we became good friends
through Twitter and the shift amongst young men, right?
Biden had won them by 27 points.Trump won them by two points,
right? And I think the part of the left

(01:05:41):
that me and Max talk about a lotis like, look, the Republicans,
if you agree with them on 50% ofthe issues, come into the club,
come here, let's, let's, let's work together.
And, and, but with, with, with alot of the people, and I would
say a lot of people that are on the left as well.
You disagree with us on one or two issues, you got to get out
of the club. You can't.
We can't. We can't work together.
On such a level? On such a level.

(01:06:04):
And you know you've experienced that.
I've experienced it big time. I was very left wing on Israel,
but I do believe Israel has a right to exist.
And the whole uncommitted vote, that's not good enough.
So they were so pretty. Tested.

(01:06:26):
And they were voting for basically what would be Biden,
Biden delegates. You can't allow one issue, no
matter how important it is, to keep you from recognizing the
largest story, which at this point is the salvation of our
democracy itself. That's that's a perfect way to
wrap it up and look, we when we thank you for your time, I know

(01:06:50):
that you're a really busy personand I know I'm a I'm a big fan
of yours. So this is kind of a.
Thank you. Thank you.
You have any advice for us if you want to serve as a mentor
for us? I know that David is loving this
because David, I could see it inhis eyes, him just being, he
told. You guys text me, text me
anytime day and night, say, hey,can we talk?
No, I love it. I'm at the point of my life and

(01:07:12):
my age is that, you know, I think we're the keepers of the
story. You know what I mean?
And and that you pass it on to future generations.
And I think that your generationand mine has some there's an A
rapport and a resonance and an alignment.
So yes. And that's why I guess that

(01:07:32):
there was a little bit of why are you doing this podcast and
why an hour and these be all like, no, no, no, no.
This is where the accent is energetically.
So I'm honored to have been hereand absolutely be in touch with
me anytime anything I can do. I see great things And and if if
anything, have more confidence in yourselves, not from a sense

(01:07:53):
of entitlement or swagger or arrogance, but a sense that
you're grown men now. You know, I'm Jewish and at the
bar mitzvah, you know, the reason the bar mitzvah existed
was because when you have a history of persecution, the only
way the people can could surviveis if somebody became an adult

(01:08:15):
here and in in societies where they have ceremonies of coming
of aid ceremonies there, the society marks the entrance into
adulthood. And America really lacks that.
And that is having terrible repercussions because you have
all these young men who are attracted to the alt right,

(01:08:38):
etcetera, because they see a it's you and I know it's very
it's beyond toxic, toxic masculinity.
It's malfunctional talk, talk masculinity.
But on the left, men have been made to feel shame about just
being men. You know, there's a divine
masculine, not just a divine feminine.
You're old enough. Own it.

(01:08:59):
Own it. That's my advice to you and
enjoy it. I love it.
That's my other piece. We'll.
Make sure we'll make sure belay doesn't get too overconfident
too keep each other. Keep each other or tell me if
there's a problem. You need to call him because
he's away. If we got problems, we know to
call I'm. Going to my I already told my
professors, Marianne Williamson is coming on my my podcast.

(01:09:23):
I was like, Oh my God, I'm so excited to talk to her.
And they know, they know. And so I I might get a little
too over. That's crazy that you definitely
will be. Well, I wish you guys the best
and I see great things for all of you.