January 31, 2025 • 47 mins
Beleh, Max, and special guest Jack Cocchiarella break down the state of Democratic messaging, the Republican overreach, and how the left can build long-term influence in media.
They kick things off by discussing the Democrats’ struggles in digital outreach and why party leaders need to flood the zone with content instead of waiting for media coverage (00:08). The conversation turns to Republican messaging victories, Trump’s TikTok strategy, and why Democrats need to meet voters where they are — including on podcasts like Joe Rogan’s (07:35).
Later, they debate Kamala Harris’ 2028 future, whether Biden dropping out actually saved key Senate races, and how Dems can rebuild their economic narrative after this election (33:19). Wrapping up, Jack lays out why the Republican cultural shift is overblown and why economic hardship — not ideology — drove 2024's results (35:38).
Follow Max @MaxLevin23, Beleh @Btoma15 and Brogressive Podcast @BrogressivePod on Twitter/X.
Make sure to check out The Jack Cocchiarella Show on YouTube (@JackCocchiarellaShow) and follow Jack on X (@JDCocchiarella) for more sharp political commentary and insights!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Morning folks, This is the newest episode of Progressive.
I'm here with my Co host Willet and we have a special guest in
the form of Jack. We said coach Abella right with
an IA. You could say it however way no
one has ever pronounced it correctly, including myself.
So you say what is best for you and easiest to get through, but.
See, the best part is a total sweetheart.
Let's bring them on, Jack. Yeah, thank you.
(00:29):
Thank you all so much for havingme.
Under better circumstances. Would have been great if this
was a first week recap of the Kamala Harris presidency.
I would have been a lot more thrilled about that.
If it was, I probably wouldn't be paying attention so much.
I'd probably be recovering a bit.
It was difficult not to immediately segue us into this,
but it was difficult seeing Tim Walz on Maddow last night.
(00:51):
And then he held a local press conference in Minnesota as well.
And you, you just look at a guy who cares so deeply.
And especially when those federal aid freezes affected so
many organizations that just provide food for people.
Like that is what Donald Trump got in the way of people unsure
where their next meal was comingfrom yesterday or the weeks to
(01:14):
follow. And in the big, big moment for
Tim Walz early or I guess two years ago or a year ago was
passing legislation to ensure free hot lunch and breakfast for
kids throughout Minnesota. And now people are unsure if
they can eat. And you're just like, how is
this not our vice president? Like, shouldn't this be what a
politician is? It's just heartbreaking to
watch. It is.
(01:34):
I'm glad you said that because it's like every time I look in
the news, I like I've, I've, I've called this last week, the
9 days where my hair has gone Gray.
Because every time you open yourphone, you're like, President
Trump dismantle inspector generals.
So you don't know, inspector generals are the independent
people who makes your governmentagencies don't do bad things.
It's like President Trump distracting.
The swamp? No, we're draining the swamp,
Max. We're draining the swamp.
Draining the swamp, yeah. Absolutely.
(01:56):
And I love the I love. Like the Republican general?
The the Republican response or it's like, I think the Susan
Collins was like, I'm so surprised that Mr. President
Trump so suck. It's like he he didn't want to
get rid of waste. It's like, well, you laid this
out in your agenda and I'm like,where have these people been?
It it's just like baffling. I don't know.
Like I don't even know who they're serving at this point.
(02:18):
And that kind of messaging, if they like, if they enjoy being
humiliated by him, if they're all in cahoots where like Trump
calls up Susan Collins is like, Susan, I need you to put out
this is like the most dumbass memo.
Just I need you to just humiliate yourself.
But yeah, it it's the most ridiculous response from
Republicans, who just seem shocked that Donald Trump is a
(02:39):
bad person who doesn't keep his promises and is willing to
betray anyone to serve himself. It's like, oh, this is new.
If we've been doing the stance for like 10 years, I mean, like,
I, I, I'm 21, right? Like I remember when Trump's
first elected, it's like, OK, this guy's an asshole.
Like we, we know his shtick. Everybody knows it.
It whenever like they put shit out like that, it's like, Oh my
God, a leopard ate ate my face. It's like, yeah, yeah, don't go
(03:00):
near the leopard. Don't say it's not going to eat
your face. And then don't be surprised when
it eats your face. Like, are you fucking stupid?
But. It it has been, it has been
difficult, especially seeing theRepublican response.
I know there's been, or at leastthere was last night a a lot of
conversation about how Dems are messaging on this and how some
of really just kind of been quiet or maybe taking a
(03:21):
backseat. And I think the the perfect, the
perfect discourse on this because it's really easy to do
the blame Democrats, blame Democrats playing that's the
game when when we don't have a majority or like the ability to
do much in any chamber or like in any way.
But the fact that so many members are still unable to just
shoot, direct a camera video andsay, here's my response.
(03:44):
Here is what we need to do to combat this.
Here are our next steps. You know, Jasmine Crockett was
on her way to her, her local swearing in in her district and
just like shooting at a low angle with her sunglasses on in
the car, driving there on an Instagram Live for 15 minutes.
Being like, this is what's goingon right now.
This is our response. And the inability for so many
(04:07):
Democrats to do that is really troubling when we just need
people talking. It's like if Trump is showing us
anything, it's just like flood the zone.
And of course we don't want to flood the zone with shit, but
just like flood the zone with the volume of information, talk
about these things so people at least know that you're there.
And, and the fact that we don't have elected Dems who can just
sit down and get in front of thecamera doesn't have to be
special. Just speak.
(04:27):
We we just need more of that right now.
Well, it's, it's a good point that you're raising it so I can
see, I don't know if you've listened to this client show on
like the war and attention. It's it's this whole thing of
this little device is blasting US 24/7 with whatever we want.
And it's like we're not going tomeet people by making a post
that says Donald Trump is working for like family as well.
(04:48):
St. not Main Street. Like get the fuck out of here.
Get me, go on fucking TikTok andrecord a video.
Like I'm like, go on fucking Instagram reels.
Like people aren't going to answer to that stuff.
Like what we, again, when we're in this fight for attention,
shutting up and just sitting there quietly, people are going
to think we're not doing anything.
And that's exactly what killed us the last four years, right?
Do you ask people what PresidentBiden did?
(05:09):
And they're like. I don't know, I didn't see him.
He kind of disappeared. And it's like the thing with the
getting on TikTok that just drives me so crazy is that I
hear a lot of people in the party talking about, it's like,
we need more videos that get clipped and posted on TikTok.
I'm like, you can do your own clipping and post it there.
(05:32):
There aren't like the there's noclip community.
There's no like Board of Governors of clipping of
political TikTok. It's like, yeah, sure, you got
to put out a little bit of effort for people to start
making like cute edits of you to, to Charlie XCX songs, but
it's just like, no, you can go and do this yourself.
Again, it's just volume. People want to hear from other
people. This is what this is all about.
(05:53):
And and this has been driving memost crazy.
Sure, a bit of it is my own selfish interest as a person who
does video all day and talks about these things.
It's like, yes, the more hits that Elizabeth Warren does or
he's like any Democrats, like it's great for me.
I got more content to talk aboutand share with people.
But no, you should be doing thisyourselves.
And it's like so many members have just now started up their
YouTube channels to post whenever they go on MSNBC and
(06:16):
there is such a like a Bank of this content that we have and,
and somehow we're just sitting on it for no reason.
And it leaves me, leaves me pretty confused.
It's. Just kind of outright
embarrassing because I, you know, I'm not sure how familiar
you are with like, how will those like comms things work?
And like, I'm, I'm going to go to them here.
So you kind of understand, like they have a whole comms team.
It's like if you have a dedicated team of three or four
people, at the very least, you could ask them to be like, hey,
(06:39):
make sure we have decent social media posts.
Like Belay's been a big proponent of actually getting on
social media and like meeting people where they are.
Yeah, absolutely. But I think a big issue we have
is that like, we tend to go on mainstream media a lot.
And I'm, I've, you know, that's makes a lot of sense because a
lot of older voters do watch mainstream media and, you know,
the MSNBC's of the world, you know, they're, they're out
(07:01):
there. But I think we tend to neglect
podcasts and other other alternative forms of media.
I think we do it based on, hey, like, for example, Joe Rogan,
whatever you think about him, don't care.
He has the largest fucking audience in the world, right?
His podcast is the number one podcast in the world.
Why would you not go on his podcast if you're invited on his
(07:23):
podcast? I don't think Kamala Harris
would have if she went on her podcast.
I'm not talking about that, but you're going on Joe Rogan's
podcast not to become friends with him.
It's more so to reach out to thepeople that listen to him going
on podcasts like Joe Rogan. You don't have to love Joe Rogan
to go on his podcast. You don't have to become best
friends with him and go to his like comedy show afterwards, but
go on his podcast because he is the largest fucking audience in
(07:45):
the world, right? Go speak to the people that
listen to him, right? Those people are only hearing
like right wing misinformation or right wing, whatever you want
to call it on his podcast. So go on there, provide an
alternative, you know, an alternative way and then maybe
you'll pick up some voters. But if anything, it shows that
you're like brave enough to go into spirits that you aren't
necessarily quote UN quote welcome on.
I think that's an issue Democrats have is that, hey,
(08:07):
this person says something bad in the past and we don't agree
with everything they say. So we have to we have to de
platform them, right? We can't go on their podcast and
whatever you say, I don't care if you like Bernie Sanders or
not, But when he went on Joe Rogan in 2020, that episode kind
of blew up. And then you had this coalition
of just Democrats that came out.Even Joe Biden's team like
tweeted something about Joe Rogan saying something about
(08:27):
trans athletes in the I'm like, that's not what you're supposed
to do. You're supposed to expand your
base, right? You're supposed to expand the
media platforms that you go on. Not narrow though.
Yeah, I I completely agree. And I think something that's
often overlooked with the discussion of podcasting out
with just, you know, Joe Rogan, but Trump going on Aiden Ross
or. Talking to who's not even like.
(08:48):
Friedman talking with the Elk boys.
Is it like something that's so important and why my theory on
the of the case on like the podcasting in this election is
that sure it was it was good forTrump to to go to those places
for him. It presented him as a normal guy
who could talk for an hour soundregular, which kind of
dismissed, although it wasn't true, this Democratic argument
(09:10):
that they know he's a fascist. His generals are calling him
Hitler when he's just a normal guy talking UFC with Joe Rogan.
You're like, oh, this is blown out of proportion, which is one
of the worst things attached to the Democratic brand is that we
overreact and then under act like we just don't do anything
after raising so much concern. But why I think that Trump
didn't even necessarily need to go on those podcasts.
(09:31):
Sure, it was beneficial for him is that these people are already
priming their audiences with these kind of just like
conservative adjacent feelings about so much.
It's just like the Joe Rogan podcast.
Sure, like when Neil deGrasse Tyson goes on, it's a fun
conversation. When him and Shane Gillis have
like share like a 24 pack and are just like ridiculous.
It's like those episodes are fun, but a lot of it is just
(09:53):
like the just asking questions Tucker Carlson nonsense.
Priming people to be conspiratorial, priming people
to have, you know, uncomfortablefeelings towards our foreign
intervention, good or bad, you know, specifically with Ukraine.
And I feel like a lot of what you see from Rogan or Nelk or
Barstool is this kind of just like, Oh, well, we talked about
like the manosphere culture, which primes their audience to
(10:15):
1, be distrustful of whatever institution that they're
constantly poking at, which was Democrats in the, the Biden
administration, which ultimatelykind of got dumped on Kamala
Harris's shoulders. But it, it primes them for to,
to want some alternative, which Trump presents himself as.
And so that's why I think that when we're having this con, this
conversation about not only justgoing to these places, we need
(10:38):
to be priming these people long term.
There's been such an important conversation about how for the
longest time, maybe the past 2-3, maybe even 4 election
cycles, Democrats have been so focused on turn out and get out
the vote when we haven't been inplaces, we haven't been in
communities for even more than acouple of months before an
election. And what's so important about
that? Podcasting spheres again, they
(11:00):
are constantly priming their audience to to kind of fall into
these anti institution buckets in which people are just
inevitably going to view Democrats is to mainstream and
that they need to oppose that just because of the belief that
they're being fed every single day about why all of these
things in their lives are so broken.
Why the health and Wellness space is also such a great place
(11:21):
for MAGA to thrive because it isa part of that.
Just asking questions and it andit fits into the you're kind of
a victim of your circumstance and your circumstances like this
Democratic nanny state. That's not doing enough.
That's protecting the corporate interest of Kroger or any
pharmaceutical company. And so when you're constantly
like inhuating people with that,inundating people with that,
(11:42):
then they are bound to be drawn to a figure like Donald Trump.
And that is something that we lack, especially on the left.
It's not just that we fail at going to those places.
We're not building those. But it's difficult because you
can't really build a Joe Rogan that doesn't exist.
We certainly need to be focusingon the cultural issues that are,
that are persistent and constantand discussed by just regular
(12:04):
people everyday that we can thenbe priming them to think, oh,
Democrats are winning on the issue that I just talked about
in my day-to-day life, which Republicans certainly did.
A really good point, Jack. I wanted to say two things.
I think the reason why podcasts are doing so well now and why
they're going to do well in the future is because it's so easy
just to turn them on. Where you could be like cleaning
and listening to something. You could be driving, putting on
(12:25):
a podcast, whatever it is. So I think it's a lot easier to
consume #2 You bring up a good point about like showing people
that Democrats do care about a specific issue.
For example, the I think it was the the trans prison surgery ad
in Pennsylvania that that went, you know, that that the Trump
team was really putting a lot ofmoney behind Kamala Harris
basically saying that, hey, I'm going to, you know, provide
(12:47):
surgeries for trans inmates. Whatever you think about the
issue, don't really care. I think the reason why it did
well is not necessarily because like Americans hate trans
people. I think because it reinforced
something about Democrats that they only care about these
cultural issues, right? And I don't, we obviously don't
know. We obviously know that's not
true, but the average Americans?Who cared about the cultural
(13:08):
issue, right? It is.
Then we put 100. $1,000,000 behind the ad, but yeah, it's
been. Exactly.
It's been flipped on our asses to make it look like we don't
care about the economy, we don'tcare about rising prices, shit,
we don't care about the border and Alec.
That is the perception of Democrats in the mainstream.
So it's about actually going outthere and talking about issues
on every single platform. Talking about shit that's not
(13:29):
too pretty, right? Like housing policy.
Max loves this shit. He's amb and like talking about
housing policy and why we can't get affordable housing in local
cities. Max tells me about this all the
time. But talking about issues that
maybe aren't the most flashy buta lot of people will care about
once they hear them. Yeah, and I, I think the idea,
sorry Max to cut you off, the idea of like what the kitchen
table issues are have have sort of changed and.
(13:51):
More in a way, exactly. And I like to lay out like 3 or
4 of the kind of like weather political issues for me.
It's like, I, I call them that because it's like, what are the,
the political issues that peoplecan talk about in the same way
that they talk about the weather, right?
Like it's a cold 1 outside. It's like that's a nonsensical
nothing statement, right. When you say gas is expensive,
(14:11):
So where groceries, rent is up, sure, that's it's an observation
about the world, but it doesn't really like there's no
substance, there's no policy thought behind that.
There's no criticism of anything.
It's just something that people are constantly talking about.
It's the same of true. That's true of health and
Wellness where people are sayingthat, you know, our insurance
system is broken, our food is poison, things that people who
are apolitical talk about all the time.
(14:34):
It's again the same case when we're talking about, let's say
for an intervention, money beingsent to Ukraine, something that
I always see blowing up on social media and my friends who
are apolitical like it is when you know, oh, what?
So Joe Biden said $770 sent $770to to California, but Ukraine
got another however many bill just like this clear
(14:56):
misinformation. And the fourth one that I see a
lot, you know, is college. People talking about college
being a scam is really big in these right wing circles.
And as fewer young men are goingto college, this really preys
upon them. And of course, people who are
doing this are like crypto guys who want to sell you their
course, right? They're like, don't go to
college. Take my course.
It's 100 bucks a month on Patreon or whatever the fuck.
(15:17):
And so all of these issues, all of these basic issues, when
we're talking about cost, when we're talking about college,
when we're talking about health and Wellness, when we're talking
about, you know, our foreign intervention, like those four
things. I don't think anyone having like
an accidental apolitical, just kind of bumping into a
conversation with their friends has any perspective on that that
makes them feel positively aboutDemocrats.
(15:38):
The last time I think we had like a really, this breaks
through in the culture kind of talking point that we were
winning on without having to do shit, I think was when we were
talking about like criminal justice, right?
When we were talking about reforming policing, people
having those. Yeah, people having those
conversations. Sure, there were some people who
were overreacting and saying Democrats want to defund all
(16:00):
police while I was like. But I feel like when people were
having that conversation about policing, Democrats were winning
without having to do anything. When people were having
conversations years ago about gay marriage, right?
I feel like Democrats were winning that conversation
without having to do anything. When people talk about abortion,
Democrats are winning that that conversation without having to
do anything. And I feel like the issues that
(16:21):
were most important in this election, Republicans did a
really good job of connecting themselves culturally to without
having like to actually breakthrough with any of their
candidates. And that's what worries me so
much is that these things that people can just have, again, a
political conversations about where they don't feel like
they're picking a side when they're low information voters,
(16:41):
those conversations that are being had.
We are always attached to the institution fairly or unfairly
that people do not like. And often times when people
criticize that institution, we tell them they're wrong for
doing so rather than saying, actually, you're right to say
that college is a scam, but it'snot for the reason that Donald
(17:01):
Trump is telling you. It's not because like, you know,
oh, there's a bunch of people with blue hair at Columbia where
like with Jack, it's like, no, there's a bunch of liberals like
Jack and Columbia. It's like it's no, it's because
this administrative bloat that we have is causing kids to have
to pay 80 KA year. And it's like these schools are
so fucking greedy that if I go to Alabama, it's like I'm paying
tuition and I have to pay to go see them play football.
(17:23):
It's like, do you really need mymoney for that too?
And so like, that's where I think we're failing is that, you
know, people have this. And now I'm going going on my
whole long rant here, but it's like, you know, people have this
perception that we don't respondwell to institutional criticism
because we are the institution. But it's like we do want to
change it. We just have to stop telling
people it's like, no, you're. Wrong.
(17:44):
But we have to tell people it's like, actually, you're right,
but not for the reason that Donald Trump is telling you, not
the reason that JD Vance, not the reason that any of these
Republicans are telling you, because they want you to hate it
for the wrong reason. It's like, we love to hate shit.
Like we can unite behind that, but we got to tell people why
instead of no. Exactly.
Blaine and I was talking about this all the time.
He loves to argue with me. He's like, oh, like Mr. Too
(18:05):
Schless, Mr. Mate, Like, what doyou call me Blay?
It's a. Neolim.
I'm just kidding. He's not.
He's not a Neolim. Defender of the status quo.
Got to be the Neolim allegations.
It's I'm never going to beat it down, but but, but Blay lives to
Jack and Jack Blay lives made fun of it before, but it is
true, right? We, like I said, became the
nanny state. The the we're we're the mom,
(18:26):
right? We are the mom that says no, eat
your vegetables, go to bed. But that's wrong, right?
Like it's like you said, people are mad about things.
People feel this general sense of discontent and feel like
things are going wrong. And so instead of just being
Nope, actually the economy is good.
No, actually college is good. It's like that.
Terrible. Argument, right?
Like here's the thing, when we can fix these things, it's like
housing, right? Instead of listing out a 10 step
plan of how we're going to fix it and being like, oh here's all
(18:46):
this math and whatever, like just say yeah, it's too damn
expensive. Just say, just say shit.
Just like, say more stuff. We don't have to pretend like
it's wrong. I feel like we really lost out
on an opportunity, especially with, you know, how how focused
everyone in the country was, what was happening in LA when
rent prices skyrocket after likewhat, 137% that was a great
(19:09):
opportunity for us to say, here is why it is so difficult for
you to buy a house. Here is why rents are going up
so much because these landlords,these corporations whom we need
to relegate are willing to prey on you at any given moment.
And there is some rent controlling that's going on in
response to that. And I think it would have been
(19:30):
really smart to make that a cultural moment.
Our Democrats introduce some piece legislate.
I know, I know we did that. But it's like make a meal of it,
talk about it all the time. Connect it to Republican policy,
connect it to failures of like the corrupt billionaire
surrounding Donald Trump and howthey want to protect their
interest. It's like that is a conversation
and that people were having all of the time and without it being
(19:52):
political that we need to start investing in.
I want people to talk about, wow, did you see what what they
did with rent controls in LA? Did you see how high prices
were? Oh, like they're finally
imposing, you know, some protections on that.
If people can talk about that type of stuff and not even
register that they're talking about Democrats.
But again, framing people for when they hear these things,
(20:13):
again, that's a lot of success. You know, I was talking to
someone about. But the most effective kind of
more populist messages of Kamala's campaign.
And we're kind of going back andforth about the price caps
argument. And they're saying it was like,
well, you can't say that Kamala Harris didn't, you know, run
that much of A of a populist economic campaign or that she
didn't have these ideas. Because, you know, a a couple of
(20:34):
times in her speeches, she wouldtalk about these potential price
caps for for groceries. And I was like, yeah, Kamala
Harris talked about them in her speeches.
Like hear yourself like in her speeches, who, who is bumping
into politics? Who of the like thousands or 10s
of thousands or however many people on Election Day like
googled, Wait, is Joe Biden not running?
(20:56):
Do you think that person paid attention to a single Kamala
Harris speech? No, again, it's not like it's
not bad that we do speeches, butwe got to figure out that like,
people aren't bumping. In blood policy, blood the.
Zone. I've become the Steve Bannon of
the left. Like is what are you going to do
at this point? Yeah, and then like storm the
capital along with it. Make me make an instruction Max
(21:17):
and I'll. Be with Tucker Carlson and I'll
be like, I don't know, who am I?Why do you want to be Laura
Ingraham funding? Laura Ingraham.
I I saw the. Club and dribble guys.
I I saw the there's a a certain couple of guys that you can tell
that too. We're we're going to get into
basketball takes later or maybe just like for jaw, shut up and
put the gun down, Shut up and get off IG live.
(21:41):
I'm mad at the Grizzlies. I have a thing if we're we're
going to get into sports eventually.
I have a thing where anyone who performs well against LeBron in
a playoff series, I have like a five year embargo on ever liking
them. Oh.
That's so funny. So it's just like, I still hate
Jimmy Butler because I'm just like the 2020 finals.
It's like, you made me so upset.It's like, no, we won't.
(22:02):
I don't care. It's like if you perform well
against LeBron in a playoff series, The only exception that
I have for this is Jokic becauselike The only exception I have
for this is Jokic is because he beat LeBron.
And so if I hate Yokich and I'm cheering against him, then the
guy who beat LeBron like I don'twant to cheer for the guy who
keeps beating LeBron to be bad, right?
(22:23):
If like this is the crazy like gymnastics that I do in my mind,
like if Yokich goes down as likea top player, top five player of
all time, like I can justify LeBron losing to him all the.
Time, like I'm also like a top ten player, like what'd you do?
Exactly. It's like guys that LeBron beats
and they play well against him. Like John, that Memphis series,
or like Jimmy Butler. I'm always just like, I hate
(22:44):
you. Tatum is the same thing.
Obviously I'm a hate result. Jack, I hated Kevin Durant for
the longest. I was, we were curious how old
when he when he went to the Warriors like.
Was, what was it, 20? It was 2016.
I remember, I remember that. Was right after that 2016 season
where they choked the three to one lead and I was so fucking
pissed when. I I vividly remember I because
it was on the 4th of July, I remember.
(23:06):
It was. Because we were in you're Max in
21, but you're 20. Like where you guys are seniors,
right? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was 4th of July.
It was. It must have been in like 8th
grade then. I can't do that math I think.
We were going into 8th grade. We were Yep, we were going into
it was. Going into 8th grade, because
the Warriors were just blowing the 3-1 lead.
(23:27):
I remember that was a big part of everything I'd talk about
every day. And I remember it was like 4.
It was the 4th of July and for some reason, like I can't even
remember why that I think I got into a fight with my dad about
something was like he wanted me to help him was like turn on the
grill, like we're having people over, like we were something
like that. So I was just like, you know,
teenager pissed at my dad. And then like I look at like at
the Bleacher Report notice and it's like hemmer into the and
(23:49):
I'm like, I'm just like fuck this day, man.
As I was just like the whole daypout like pouting, like I didn't
watch the fireworks. I was just furious and just
stewing the whole time. Well, that's why, and I know
that we have some differences ofopinions maybe on the pod about
who is a preferable Super Bowl outcome.
Here is the difference that I have with people hating on the
Chiefs. And this goes back to my
greatness Thing with Jokic is that as a Foreigners fan, it's
(24:12):
like if we're going to like we lose always in the worst
horrific fashions and especiallyof late, if Mahomes is not the
greatest court, like he's the second greatest quarterback of
all time at this point, that I can justify losing to Mahomes.
Like I'm fine with that. I can justify losing to Mahomes.
And the difference with him likethis Chiefs team and that
17/18/19 teen Warriors team is like, it's not like Derrick
(24:34):
Henry like signed with the Chiefs.
It's a good point. Like you just brought in.
They're just practicing devil magic and some.
Yeah, yeah. It's like the Ouija board under
there or. Something they brought in Wash
DeAndre Hopkins. And I'm supposed to be mad that
they keep winning? It's.
Like Juju? Juju still on the team, right?
Juju was so bad in the preseasonthat the Patriots caught him.
The Patriots, yeah, who couldn'tscore like 12 points through
(24:56):
most of the season, and the Chiefs brought him in, and now
he works again because of the devil.
No, he had like a nice catch like last game and I'm like what
the fuck? How do they even have Juju
playing? Well, it is some dark black
magic. Happening.
It's insane. I love the Tony Romo bit during
during the Bills game when I don't even remember who it was.
I think it was one of their rookies who is like, I was like,
look at Holmes throwing that over the shoulder pass and he's
(25:18):
just like, I can't remember who it was.
Like the guy stepped out of bounds and he's like, it was
such a great pass, my, my Mahomes that he couldn't even
catch it because it was so great, because he had never had
a ball thrown to him like that. I was like, what are we doing,
man? What?
It's like, dude, It's like get off.
Why you're doing tricks, first of all, Jack, I'm a huge
Chargers fan, as you can tell. Like, that's terrible, OK?
(25:38):
You don't have to be that far. I went to Houston for the
playoff game. Like, that was even worse.
Yeah, Max was texting me like, yo, bud, are you OK?
Like what happened? He was going through it.
Why was like and I was. Always, always do that.
It's just like whenever your team loses.
Like it's the most I ever get text.
Messages. It's so annoying.
I had this one girl that's like,I have this one girl that's like
(25:59):
me and my roommate's friends, 'cause we're we're both huge
Chargers fans. So we went to Houston and she
had texted us. We have a group chat, a
screenshot of the fucking score 3 hours after the game, three
hours after the. Game I know, I know, I.
Was me and my roommate Sam looked at each other and we're
like, we're not responding. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
I got a secret for you guys. Do you guys want to know why I
(26:20):
texted him Boy after that? Let us know, of course.
He. I just wanted to rub he.
Wasn't as bad. He wasn't as bad as.
As he was wrong, I don't know ifyou go Justin Herbert coming, I
don't know if you all know TikTok superstar Aaron Parnas.
So he's a good friend of mine and he's a jets fan and when the
Niners beat The Jets to start the season, I was just like it's
like, all right, man, you're going to have another terrible
(26:40):
one and then you know, obviouslywhat happened this season
happened. I don't I don't blame anyone.
I don't know what like this whole we need to restructure
like maybe changes to the coaching staff.
It's like it's like and making it happen.
I'm like everyone was injured like Brock party was injured
through most of the season like and played.
I don't know, I wish Ben was here.
He's a really big 49ers fan and he's been talking about getting
(27:01):
rid of Shanahan and I yell at him every single podcast for
that. I'm like, you spoil a piece of
shit. I am.
You guys do not understand how it feels like to have a bad
coach. That's like with the same thing
that happened with Ohio State. It's like, what's your coach?
A what's his what's his first name?
Kyle? I don't follow a coach for
college football enough. But like the Ohio State coach
(27:21):
after they lost to Michigan. I know you have to be in
Michigan, but everyone's like, oh, you should be fired.
I'm like, there are not that many good coaches out there.
Ryan Day. Yeah, it's like, there's not
that many good coaches out there.
And that's why everyone would like constantly want coaching
turnover. It's just like, do you do you
know who is like, who's out there?
Who who would we have brought inlike Mike McCarthy if we had
fired Jan? And it's like, no, sure, we lose
(27:42):
in the Super Bowl. I was like, I'm like, I'm OK.
I'm not that. I'm only greedy with LeBron,
with my sports fandom, just because I know I'll have to talk
about LeBron. I'm possessive of LeBron.
We have a very close relationship.
But it's just like, I know I'm going to have to talk about
LeBron for the rest of my life. And I know I'm not going to be
talking about like the second Chiefs, Niners, Super Bowl and
like some. Conversation for Jack.
(28:03):
I am well. Hopefully we'll win one in the
next 40 years. That makes you like, makes it
that I don't have to. But like I'm not that possessive
of the other teams. I'm just like, just give me a
couple of wins. It's like I'll lose in a
divisional round. It's like I'm fine.
It's just like, make me not furious all the time.
It's more so I'm just sick of seeing the Chiefs win over and
over and over and. Over again.
(28:24):
I'm OK, yeah, I'm OK with it because I like the greatness.
But they're fans. It's not like they're Patriot
fans. It's like, no, I don't know
where the bad Chiefs are. Like the bad Chiefs are.
But like I was going to say. Eagles Saquon.
Sorry, Max. Eagles Saquon Barkley, bro, come
on, come on. Like I would love to see Saquon
get a championship. I like Jalen Hurts.
Philly Spring, you like Jalen Hurts?
(28:44):
I do like Jalen Hurts. I Jalen Hurts is middle class,
is my beloved to Herbert. I still like Jalen Hurts.
Jalen Hurts is a little corny for me.
I like I like Saquon a lot. I didn't really imagine.
Herbert on the Niners. Imagine that.
We'd be worse because Brock Purdy is the 6th best
quarterback in the league on Brock Purdy gets no credit.
But that's a whole different conversation.
Max, I'll let you go. I'm sorry.
(29:05):
I'm, no, I just wanted to ask, Imean, you're a 49ers fan.
I I've After 21 long years of declaring football to be all
like a just Cash Cash grab and like a time sink, I've decided
to clear my allegiance to the Buffalo Bills.
It's a terrible. Decision.
Listen, listen, listen. Listen.
Hate it all you want runs of thefamily, but Josh Allen.
Josh Allen humiliated the the Niners 3510.
(29:26):
What? How do you feel about that?
I mean, listen. I feel like I wasn't.
I think McCaffrey came back. Was that the game that McCaffrey
came back for or is that so? Yeah, the one that you got like
hurt in the first quarter is like, oh, this is great.
It's just like, let's waste a snow game that we're going to
lose on this. I was watching that on a plane
and it's like one of those things where I just I want to
(29:47):
express my rage and my anger, but there are people around me.
I always love when guys, when guys just like make it, are just
like trying to make a meal of it, just like trying to make a
big show on a plane. Like they got like got the hat
on or whatever. I was watching a Pack or
watching one of the Packers games.
I think it was Sunday Night Football.
I think it wasn't when they wereplaying the Eagles.
It was some other like 20 slot. Some guy had like his Packers
hat on. And just anytime anything would
(30:08):
have just I was like, I was like, we get like I see the hat
guy. Like we get it like you don't
have to. You don't have to be part of the
entertainment for us. Like you do not have to be doing
color commentary on this. So I was just like, I knew that
game was over. It was a snow game.
McCaffrey wasn't going to be able to play.
Like, is there any place that Josh Allen's going to be more
dominant than that? So I was just like this whole
season, I was just like, let's just pack it in after we lost to
(30:30):
the Vikings. And I know like what the Vikings
season was, but I was like, oh, that's that's where this thing
has gone. Because like when you lose the
Vikings, like, come on. And I think, I think Justin
Jefferson was like hurt through two quarters of that game and we
still lost. I was like, yeah, this thing's a
wrap. You gotta respect the Vikings.
I mean I know they lost to the Rams, but like after that
playoff loss maybe dude that So what happened with the Chargers
(30:52):
playoff loss? It was because it was the first
playoff game. It was so bad, but then like
every other game afterwards was kind of worse, so this everyone
just stopped talking about the charges.
I'm like thank God bro. I just that's true messages.
But you all are building something.
You have something going forwardtoo.
It's not like a Jim Harbaugh andit's not like the window is shut
type of thing. And I think it was like an over
performance. I don't know what the what the
(31:13):
line was at for for wins to start the season.
Seven wins for the season and wegot 11 so.
Again, that's like, that's like me as like if we can just like
perform, if we just can like notruin all of my Sundays, then I'm
happy. Jack, Jack, it's, I think it's
like Kamala Harris's election, you know, I think she.
It's just like, save a couple ofSenate seats.
Yeah. It's like as long as we win
(31:34):
Wisconsin, it's like I'm going to be fine.
Set the bar low so you're not disappointed.
Just don't completely shit the bed and you're good.
Right? That's that's the general.
She didn't lose New Jersey. Didn't lose New Jersey.
That's something I was talking. I don't know who was I talking
to this about, but I just had, Ijust had David Hogg on my show.
I was going to say yesterday, but the episode went out.
Today. He's running for vice chair.
So we were talking about that and he brought up how, you know,
(31:56):
he's still kind of reckoning with how a year ago he spoke to
Biden and he's like, what do I need to do to win young people?
And he said to me, I think he said this other places.
So I'm not breaking any news here.
He's like, I just wish I told him to drop out.
And, you know, with the Hagseth confirmation, which I think is
one of the worst thing things Republicans have done in a
while, I think the child tax credit might be quietly like
(32:17):
getting rid of that might be quietly the worst, like.
Make it. Make a list.
Add the list. Child poverty cut in half.
Get it out of here. Like that shit is crazy.
Like all the Republicans talkingabout I don't know who, the one
congressman who's like, I started working when I was 13.
High school, if you want it in high school, I'm like if you
want you want to deliver packages on like bicycles.
If if you want to eat in middle school, if you want breakfast,
(32:39):
then maybe you pick up a couple of shifts that'll work.
Drive me crazy. But the headset thing I think
might be one of the worst thingsRepublican has done in a while.
And I was thinking about it. I was like, not that I want to
do too much like Biden revisionist, like hate or
whatever, but if he'd stuck in the race, maybe like maybe we
lose Slotkin, maybe we lose Baldwin, maybe we lose Gallego.
(33:01):
I feel like Gallego would have won no matter what.
Maybe we lose Andy Kim. It's like if I had stayed in the
race, they might have confirmed Matt Gaetz.
Like I know people hate Matt Gaetz.
Like they might have confirmed Matt Gaetz.
And so maybe I'm too. Kamala lived up and I know you
guys had your conversation aboutwhat her next steps are for
2028. I I did the last.
(33:22):
Was that the last pod or two pods?
Yeah, I think it was the last pod.
Because you guys teased, you guys teased this one as a very
special guest. And I was like, it's like, now
I'm really going to have to deliver.
So, so hopefully that's come true.
But you know, when you think about it again and and like as
many, as many criticisms as you want to levy against the Kamla
campaign, it's like they did move the move the dial like
things got better. She her favorables improved
(33:45):
drastically throughout the entirety of the campaign.
All the states, all the states she campaigned in, were much
more narrow than the general shift everywhere.
And the economic messaging landed.
And so that's why I keep going back and forth.
And it's a criticism I've levieda lot.
I feel like I've just like, directed this conversation too
much in the pod. If you don't have one, like
something specific you want to talk about, I love.
This. I love this.
But it's the conversation I keephaving about these just like
(34:07):
really, I don't know if I, I don't want to demonetize you by
using this word, but it's like. We don't make any money like
you're good. And I guess we can say whatever
we want now, which is a whole another rant.
That I'm It's Trump's, America. It's Trump's.
America, but it's like all thesepussy ass billionaires who are
like, I think it was Stephanie Ruhle talking about.
It's like if I had fuck you money, I might say fuck you a
couple more times than these guys do.
(34:29):
And I think the, the perfect encapsulation of you having
money does not make you smart ishow stupid these guys read of
this thing is as like Trump is hopefully gone in four years.
And maybe there's just like thismassive change in the cultural
landscape of the country and there's this huge revitalization
of the like of the Democratic Party.
And like woke comes back. It's like I'm I'm missing woke
(34:50):
at this point. And these guys, their calculus,
they still think that the, the, the vote count from the night of
the election is how it played out.
Like right when we were like, itwas too close to call in
Virginia for like an hour or two, you then more so than it
usually is. And I think that they honestly
believe that there's been this massive cultural shift in the
(35:12):
country. Sure, Zuck is doing his thing
because he wants to appease Trump because he wants that FTC
case to go away. But I think these guys actually
think that there's this huge cultural movement that they're
trying to get on board with thatThere's just not, in my opinion,
I do think that Democrats certainly need to stake like,
big steps to better embed ourselves in the culture.
(35:33):
But I don't really think that America wants what the
Republican Party represents in terms of their cultural agenda.
I just think it was the economicpressure of this election.
Economic and also immigration too I think was a was a big
part. Sure, absolutely.
And I think you know the broken media environment.
And so on. How much of it is just people
what they're seeing? Like I was like, I say, it's
(35:53):
like you're, you're absolutely right.
And it's like, we have to change.
I mean, how much what you're seeing, what you're feeling like
if you want to capture this moment, it's like they're going
to overstep it. When all of a sudden ICE agents
are going into your local like restaurant, like going to
schools. Like when people see that,
they're going to be like, I mean, hold on, wait a minute.
I just wanted lower gas prices. When the fucking tariffs Jack up
our coffee prices 25%, people are going to be like, wait a
minute, wait a minute. I thought they paid the tariffs.
(36:14):
It's like, no, that's the thing.We pay again.
They're going to overstep this moment.
Like when all of a sudden whatever next right gets rolled
back, When Meals on Wheels gets cut, when the federal funding
for Cancer Research for all these vaccines and things, when
shit starts to hit the fan with bird flu.
When your eggs are $20. And it is.
In everyone's face, I cannot tell you how many friends have
(36:36):
talked to me about, you know, a buddy of mine applying to law
school right now and he's like, I, I got you are as well.
I know this. Sadly, that's awful.
I know this is a bad one. Like I, I'm not even applying to
law school and I get like Instagram reels where it's just
like the the bit where it's likeI'm not funny.
I applied to law school in like 2025.
(36:56):
It's like, it's just like everyone.
Could just kill me. It's awful.
Just kill me. But one of the programs that he
applied to, like send him an e-mail where it's like we don't
exist anymore because Trump got our funding.
I had a friend. I had a friend whose whose
partner is in the military and like they they don't know if
they're going to get their job or their appointment or move to
where they need to be because like we don't know if we're
(37:17):
hiring people. Like it is impacting people's
lives already in a way that's inescapable.
And again, like This is why I think that the over exaggeration
of this cultural moment is really going to come back to
bite these people in the ass because like they're kind of pot
committed to this being their worldview that they're browsing.
That's a good point to work. I think that's a.
That's a great point. And I think they're overstepping
(37:39):
with a lot of these issues. But I think as a Democrat to
kind of do have to understand that, like there are some issues
that are pretty unpopular with the American people.
And that doesn't mean you abandoned the issues, right?
You got to find a way to messagethem.
And like Max, we were talking about like, for example, like
the trans community, like approaching that with like
humility and, and being very compassionate, but also
(38:01):
approaching that with like a libertarian sense, Like, hey,
you do whatever the fuck you want in your life.
You know, like the government should not be reaching in and
telling you how to live your life.
Stop being weird. Stop being weird to people.
Stop asking another about their genitals you weirdos.
I think another issue that we had trouble with the last four
years is the border, like I am an immigrant, like my family
seek asylum when I was like 3 years old.
So I think I have like the rightto speak about this a bit.
(38:22):
And I think for for the first three years of violence
administration, right, it wasn'tthe border crossings weren't too
bad the first year and a half tosee a title, Title 42 in place.
And I think the first like afterTitle 42 was removed, it wasn't
as bad, but then it started getting like really bad in
terms. Of COVID too.
All the people. And then there were that.
Period. It was a horrible time, but we
(38:45):
downplayed it over and over and over.
You can't do that when a, the numbers are showing that like
500,000 people are entering the country when during the
President Obama's term, like 500,000 people would enter the
whole year, right? So I think that we, we also have
to understand that like some of these issues might not our
stance or our lack of a stance is not popular.
(39:06):
Like I wish Biden did come out earlier and be like, look, year
2 and year 2, we're going to getan Immigration Bill through.
Let's work through. You know, at that time he had
like a house and said I know youhave limited capital, but even
just talking about it that earlyor even issuing, he waited until
like year 3 1/2 to issue executive.
Orders, yeah. And and AOC said this.
It's like Donald Trump's plan, his immigration plan is like, is
(39:27):
it popular or have we not cut like properly communicated why
people should think it's unpopular and why they should
think it's bad because we just didn't talk about it.
Like that was the ammo. Like that was the end of the
parties. Just like when people ask about
immigration, deflect, don't talk, deflect, don't talk.
And it's just like, that's the problem.
Like when we come back to flooding the zone, talking about
these old things all the time, It's just like, have a stance,
(39:49):
say something, be nuanced. Like have some butts and some
umms in there. Like it's OK.
You can't because remember, likeagain, you have groups that are
these dip shits that come in andprotest your office saying like
you need open borders, you need these humane things.
When Sunrise Movement comes and yells at you saying the IRA
isn't big enough, it's like we had that awful feedback loop of.
Democratic groups and nonprofitsall demand you talk a certain
(40:09):
way, speak a certain way, talk about it.
Oh, immigration has to be this has to be that they're going to
punish you if you talk about it in a nuanced way.
And when we punish our party members like that, when we have
these nonprofit groups that punish members like we can't
have that. Like that's that's why they're
not doing this things. Like, again, why Biden didn't
come out and say these things, why he didn't come out and talk
about immigration, why they didn't do it is because if you
(40:30):
describe them as, remember during State of the Union,
right, he said like an illegal alien, he spoke about Lake and
Riley and then he had to apologize for it.
That is why they don't talk about these things.
I think there is too much like policing when it comes to that.
I will say, like Max, I think you retweeted on the account
like Barack Obama's speech on immigration back in 2008.
And I thought it was like, look,I am an immigrant.
(40:50):
Like, I'm literally an asylum seeker.
And I'm like, yeah, this is like, good.
This is what I agree with. Like, Obama was basically
talking about, look, if you're here, if you're here right now
and you're undocumented and you haven't committed any crimes and
you're working, we'll give you apathway.
You have to pay. Pay fine, go back.
You can't cut the line. You have to like at least try to
learn English. That is like extremely popular.
But then he said, if you're a criminal, you've committed, you
(41:11):
know any, if you've committed some bad crimes, we're sending
you back. And I'm like, that is the path
forward. Like that's the that's the
message that people agree with because people do have
compassion about people who havebeen here for like 20 years
working their ass off, paying taxes, right?
And now they have kids who were born here.
And there's nothing more deflationary than immigration,
right? It's like Springfield, OH was
(41:32):
such a funny example to me because it's like those were
people welcomed into a communityin the Rust Belt who single
handedly revitalized it, not only by working those important
jobs, but it allowed people in that community who didn't
previously have an employment and weren't going to have them
in those factories to then like work as drivers.
(41:55):
Like people were just like all these jobs were springing up for
people like to drive people around, like they'd have their
vans, they'd pick people up, translators, restaurants were
being revitalized. It's like it was great for the
community unity and it was deflationary.
Like the local officials were like, no, these people should be
here and now they're leaving in Mass and that'll be.
Very low crime rate too. And Speaking of the crime rate,
I think the the initial reporting about the detentions
(42:18):
and deportations that Trump has done is about, I don't want to
get these numbers wrong but who gives a fuck?
They just make sense even if they're a couple points off is
like 53% have been criminals. Saw the something?
Under Biden it was like 82%. Right.
Well, that's easy, but it but it's how you go in.
Again, immigration policy is hard because you want to do mass
deportations. Nobody ever talks about how
Obama got those deportations done, right?
(42:39):
Everyone talks about, oh, he gotall these deportations, right.
He was a deported chief. How did he do it though?
The point being is he went to jails.
They had ICE go to people who were already arrested, not going
to workplace. They also include that number in
it too, again, because it's about how you do these metrics,
right? Statistics are great because
either you understand them or you don't.
And you can always parse out whodoesn't understand them and then
(43:01):
you can call them a fucking moron because Obama went about
it in a humane, more humane way.You go to jails anyone who's
committed a crime. You go, let me look at your
status. Oh, you're already like in
court, Like I already have you in like custody, right?
All I have to do is check. Are you legal?
Are you not? Oh, you're not Bye, bye.
If you're illegal, then not my problem.
Like that's. And Obama also increased, from
what I know, he increased the applications for asylum seekers
(43:23):
too, and and refugees. So he had a very like balanced
approach to it that is popular with the American public.
I'm not saying that some asylum seeker was over, but like maybe,
but he balanced approach to it. And the the, you know, dreamers,
I mean, like, fuck, dreamers areso popular, dude.
Like if Trump decides to, I don't think he's stupid enough
to like go after dreamers again.I don't think he's stupid
(43:45):
enough. I mean, he was dumb enough to
pause. I don't.
Yeah, I was about to say like my, my position on this
administration, I was just really hoping that he was just
like going to be happy having the plane back and not having to
go to prison. But no, I I would be really
worried about some. Coke machine.
It's the only thing I respect about him.
If I was president, I too would have a button of people bringing
me coke all the time. Not the white monster button,
(44:07):
not the Don Junior type of coke.But but no, you made a, you made
a great point there where it's just like, yeah, like Dreamers
are really like really popular. We don't exactly know what's
popular in our plan yet because we don't talk about it right
until we talk about it. Then we can kind of figure out
what's popular, what's break, what breaks through again, why
people just have to say things and why like not to be fucking
(44:29):
blowing smoke for y'all, but like, why this is so important.
And I really appreciate the workthat y'all are doing right now
because we just need to figure out like I don't talk to people
and just like have conversations.
Maybe it's not even to figure out how to talk to people
because that just sounds so robotic and weird.
But just like, have the conversations people will.
Listen, like just listen and anda lot of the times the popular I
feel like you can and I feel like people are like, well, a
lot of populist don't have the right like policies.
(44:51):
I'm like no, like you don't exactly.
We said we don't know what is popular, like going out and
building housing and breaking some of these regulations and
and limiting, you know, what these local cities can do and
stop, you know, states coming infrom building housing that could
be really popular. And that's like good policy.
You can be policy so. Well, you don't even have to
sorry, not to cut you off, but like you don't even have to talk
policy. Here's the thing.
I belay also. I mean, again, Jack Belay is
(45:13):
always ragging on me because he's like, oh, I'm the populist.
Like we got to be with popular. But but here's the thing.
You don't even have to talk the policy talk the feeling.
Yeah, delay is right. Like I I had to, I spent like a
week thinking about it because he's like, dude, just just
channel the feeling. And I was like, no, but it's
incoherent. The policy is bad.
You don't tap rents and then artof like don't increase the
supply like that's not. Going to work.
But I. Just think it's a feeling.
(45:33):
Policy in a board room with a bunch of nerds like me who want
to talk about it. When you talk to people, all you
say is the rent is too damn highand they're going to go.
I like that and I agree because it is channel the feeling right.
Your prices are too damn high. You want to talk about a ten
step plan to increase increase supply and and and subsidized
demand like. Save that for the Elizabeth
(45:54):
Warren conference, which I love and I'm going to go to, but just
like, save it for that. Yeah, we need to keep having
these conversations. I do unfortunately have to run
to class, so we will have to save.
All the work you do too. I appreciate it.
So we'll have to save the rest of this conversation.
Hopefully it's not the first 100days.
Maybe we do it in the first 50 so we can speak again soon, but.
I appreciate y'all having me on.Let's make sure Ben and Ben and
(46:16):
Dylan are on too, because Ben will love talking to you.
About that, I know we didn't getto talk likers that much, so I
got to make sure we do that. It's OK.
Well, we'll talk to you after 2,Jack.
I'll get back everything. Of yours in the in the in the
comments section on our Twitter so.
I appreciate that. What?
Class do you have? It's a class on primates.
What's your major? Political science.
But I'm just like, I just have to feel like the last science
(46:37):
requirement for just like being here.
So I'm taking a class on primates.
Yeah. You graduating in.
I'm ready to be done. Yeah, I'm graduating.
Couldn't come soon, all of us. I don't know.
Are you? Are you from?
Where are you from, by the way? I'm from Florida, Orlando.
I'm from Orange County. Florida.
I saw that because you posted that.
I was like, is he from Orange County, California?
I was like, no, that doesn't look like it.
Moving out to LA soon though so I'll be seeing you guys not too
(47:00):
not too distant future. Dude, hit me up.
Yeah, we'll, we'll take you out.We'll.
To get him to Holland Rays, we'll give you the spiciest
chicken in in California. So good.
All right, Jack, it's great having you.
This has been an episode of Progressive with Jack Cochrella,
famous progressive YouTuber. Thanks so much.
Famous Whoa, you'll. Always be famous, Jack.
Morning folks, This is the newest episode of Progressive.
I'm here with my Co host Willet and we have a special guest in
the form of Jack. We said coach Abella right with
an IA. You could say it however way no
one has ever pronounced it correctly, including myself.
So you say what is best for you and easiest to get through, but.
See, the best part is a total sweetheart.
Let's bring them on, Jack. Yeah, thank you.
(00:29):
Thank you all so much for havingme.
Under better circumstances. Would have been great if this
was a first week recap of the Kamala Harris presidency.
I would have been a lot more thrilled about that.
If it was, I probably wouldn't be paying attention so much.
I'd probably be recovering a bit.
It was difficult not to immediately segue us into this,
but it was difficult seeing Tim Walz on Maddow last night.
(00:51):
And then he held a local press conference in Minnesota as well.
And you, you just look at a guy who cares so deeply.
And especially when those federal aid freezes affected so
many organizations that just provide food for people.
Like that is what Donald Trump got in the way of people unsure
where their next meal was comingfrom yesterday or the weeks to
(01:14):
follow. And in the big, big moment for
Tim Walz early or I guess two years ago or a year ago was
passing legislation to ensure free hot lunch and breakfast for
kids throughout Minnesota. And now people are unsure if
they can eat. And you're just like, how is
this not our vice president? Like, shouldn't this be what a
politician is? It's just heartbreaking to
watch. It is.
(01:34):
I'm glad you said that because it's like every time I look in
the news, I like I've, I've, I've called this last week, the
9 days where my hair has gone Gray.
Because every time you open yourphone, you're like, President
Trump dismantle inspector generals.
So you don't know, inspector generals are the independent
people who makes your governmentagencies don't do bad things.
It's like President Trump distracting.
The swamp? No, we're draining the swamp,
Max. We're draining the swamp.
Draining the swamp, yeah. Absolutely.
(01:56):
And I love the I love. Like the Republican general?
The the Republican response or it's like, I think the Susan
Collins was like, I'm so surprised that Mr. President
Trump so suck. It's like he he didn't want to
get rid of waste. It's like, well, you laid this
out in your agenda and I'm like,where have these people been?
It it's just like baffling. I don't know.
Like I don't even know who they're serving at this point.
(02:18):
And that kind of messaging, if they like, if they enjoy being
humiliated by him, if they're all in cahoots where like Trump
calls up Susan Collins is like, Susan, I need you to put out
this is like the most dumbass memo.
Just I need you to just humiliate yourself.
But yeah, it it's the most ridiculous response from
Republicans, who just seem shocked that Donald Trump is a
(02:39):
bad person who doesn't keep his promises and is willing to
betray anyone to serve himself. It's like, oh, this is new.
If we've been doing the stance for like 10 years, I mean, like,
I, I, I'm 21, right? Like I remember when Trump's
first elected, it's like, OK, this guy's an asshole.
Like we, we know his shtick. Everybody knows it.
It whenever like they put shit out like that, it's like, Oh my
God, a leopard ate ate my face. It's like, yeah, yeah, don't go
(03:00):
near the leopard. Don't say it's not going to eat
your face. And then don't be surprised when
it eats your face. Like, are you fucking stupid?
But. It it has been, it has been
difficult, especially seeing theRepublican response.
I know there's been, or at leastthere was last night a a lot of
conversation about how Dems are messaging on this and how some
of really just kind of been quiet or maybe taking a
(03:21):
backseat. And I think the the perfect, the
perfect discourse on this because it's really easy to do
the blame Democrats, blame Democrats playing that's the
game when when we don't have a majority or like the ability to
do much in any chamber or like in any way.
But the fact that so many members are still unable to just
shoot, direct a camera video andsay, here's my response.
(03:44):
Here is what we need to do to combat this.
Here are our next steps. You know, Jasmine Crockett was
on her way to her, her local swearing in in her district and
just like shooting at a low angle with her sunglasses on in
the car, driving there on an Instagram Live for 15 minutes.
Being like, this is what's goingon right now.
This is our response. And the inability for so many
(04:07):
Democrats to do that is really troubling when we just need
people talking. It's like if Trump is showing us
anything, it's just like flood the zone.
And of course we don't want to flood the zone with shit, but
just like flood the zone with the volume of information, talk
about these things so people at least know that you're there.
And, and the fact that we don't have elected Dems who can just
sit down and get in front of thecamera doesn't have to be
special. Just speak.
(04:27):
We we just need more of that right now.
Well, it's, it's a good point that you're raising it so I can
see, I don't know if you've listened to this client show on
like the war and attention. It's it's this whole thing of
this little device is blasting US 24/7 with whatever we want.
And it's like we're not going tomeet people by making a post
that says Donald Trump is working for like family as well.
(04:48):
St. not Main Street. Like get the fuck out of here.
Get me, go on fucking TikTok andrecord a video.
Like I'm like, go on fucking Instagram reels.
Like people aren't going to answer to that stuff.
Like what we, again, when we're in this fight for attention,
shutting up and just sitting there quietly, people are going
to think we're not doing anything.
And that's exactly what killed us the last four years, right?
Do you ask people what PresidentBiden did?
(05:09):
And they're like. I don't know, I didn't see him.
He kind of disappeared. And it's like the thing with the
getting on TikTok that just drives me so crazy is that I
hear a lot of people in the party talking about, it's like,
we need more videos that get clipped and posted on TikTok.
I'm like, you can do your own clipping and post it there.
(05:32):
There aren't like the there's noclip community.
There's no like Board of Governors of clipping of
political TikTok. It's like, yeah, sure, you got
to put out a little bit of effort for people to start
making like cute edits of you to, to Charlie XCX songs, but
it's just like, no, you can go and do this yourself.
Again, it's just volume. People want to hear from other
people. This is what this is all about.
(05:53):
And and this has been driving memost crazy.
Sure, a bit of it is my own selfish interest as a person who
does video all day and talks about these things.
It's like, yes, the more hits that Elizabeth Warren does or
he's like any Democrats, like it's great for me.
I got more content to talk aboutand share with people.
But no, you should be doing thisyourselves.
And it's like so many members have just now started up their
YouTube channels to post whenever they go on MSNBC and
(06:16):
there is such a like a Bank of this content that we have and,
and somehow we're just sitting on it for no reason.
And it leaves me, leaves me pretty confused.
It's. Just kind of outright
embarrassing because I, you know, I'm not sure how familiar
you are with like, how will those like comms things work?
And like, I'm, I'm going to go to them here.
So you kind of understand, like they have a whole comms team.
It's like if you have a dedicated team of three or four
people, at the very least, you could ask them to be like, hey,
(06:39):
make sure we have decent social media posts.
Like Belay's been a big proponent of actually getting on
social media and like meeting people where they are.
Yeah, absolutely. But I think a big issue we have
is that like, we tend to go on mainstream media a lot.
And I'm, I've, you know, that's makes a lot of sense because a
lot of older voters do watch mainstream media and, you know,
the MSNBC's of the world, you know, they're, they're out
(07:01):
there. But I think we tend to neglect
podcasts and other other alternative forms of media.
I think we do it based on, hey, like, for example, Joe Rogan,
whatever you think about him, don't care.
He has the largest fucking audience in the world, right?
His podcast is the number one podcast in the world.
Why would you not go on his podcast if you're invited on his
(07:23):
podcast? I don't think Kamala Harris
would have if she went on her podcast.
I'm not talking about that, but you're going on Joe Rogan's
podcast not to become friends with him.
It's more so to reach out to thepeople that listen to him going
on podcasts like Joe Rogan. You don't have to love Joe Rogan
to go on his podcast. You don't have to become best
friends with him and go to his like comedy show afterwards, but
go on his podcast because he is the largest fucking audience in
(07:45):
the world, right? Go speak to the people that
listen to him, right? Those people are only hearing
like right wing misinformation or right wing, whatever you want
to call it on his podcast. So go on there, provide an
alternative, you know, an alternative way and then maybe
you'll pick up some voters. But if anything, it shows that
you're like brave enough to go into spirits that you aren't
necessarily quote UN quote welcome on.
I think that's an issue Democrats have is that, hey,
(08:07):
this person says something bad in the past and we don't agree
with everything they say. So we have to we have to de
platform them, right? We can't go on their podcast and
whatever you say, I don't care if you like Bernie Sanders or
not, But when he went on Joe Rogan in 2020, that episode kind
of blew up. And then you had this coalition
of just Democrats that came out.Even Joe Biden's team like
tweeted something about Joe Rogan saying something about
(08:27):
trans athletes in the I'm like, that's not what you're supposed
to do. You're supposed to expand your
base, right? You're supposed to expand the
media platforms that you go on. Not narrow though.
Yeah, I I completely agree. And I think something that's
often overlooked with the discussion of podcasting out
with just, you know, Joe Rogan, but Trump going on Aiden Ross
or. Talking to who's not even like.
(08:48):
Friedman talking with the Elk boys.
Is it like something that's so important and why my theory on
the of the case on like the podcasting in this election is
that sure it was it was good forTrump to to go to those places
for him. It presented him as a normal guy
who could talk for an hour soundregular, which kind of
dismissed, although it wasn't true, this Democratic argument
(09:10):
that they know he's a fascist. His generals are calling him
Hitler when he's just a normal guy talking UFC with Joe Rogan.
You're like, oh, this is blown out of proportion, which is one
of the worst things attached to the Democratic brand is that we
overreact and then under act like we just don't do anything
after raising so much concern. But why I think that Trump
didn't even necessarily need to go on those podcasts.
(09:31):
Sure, it was beneficial for him is that these people are already
priming their audiences with these kind of just like
conservative adjacent feelings about so much.
It's just like the Joe Rogan podcast.
Sure, like when Neil deGrasse Tyson goes on, it's a fun
conversation. When him and Shane Gillis have
like share like a 24 pack and are just like ridiculous.
It's like those episodes are fun, but a lot of it is just
(09:53):
like the just asking questions Tucker Carlson nonsense.
Priming people to be conspiratorial, priming people
to have, you know, uncomfortablefeelings towards our foreign
intervention, good or bad, you know, specifically with Ukraine.
And I feel like a lot of what you see from Rogan or Nelk or
Barstool is this kind of just like, Oh, well, we talked about
like the manosphere culture, which primes their audience to
(10:15):
1, be distrustful of whatever institution that they're
constantly poking at, which was Democrats in the, the Biden
administration, which ultimatelykind of got dumped on Kamala
Harris's shoulders. But it, it primes them for to,
to want some alternative, which Trump presents himself as.
And so that's why I think that when we're having this con, this
conversation about not only justgoing to these places, we need
(10:38):
to be priming these people long term.
There's been such an important conversation about how for the
longest time, maybe the past 2-3, maybe even 4 election
cycles, Democrats have been so focused on turn out and get out
the vote when we haven't been inplaces, we haven't been in
communities for even more than acouple of months before an
election. And what's so important about
that? Podcasting spheres again, they
(11:00):
are constantly priming their audience to to kind of fall into
these anti institution buckets in which people are just
inevitably going to view Democrats is to mainstream and
that they need to oppose that just because of the belief that
they're being fed every single day about why all of these
things in their lives are so broken.
Why the health and Wellness space is also such a great place
(11:21):
for MAGA to thrive because it isa part of that.
Just asking questions and it andit fits into the you're kind of
a victim of your circumstance and your circumstances like this
Democratic nanny state. That's not doing enough.
That's protecting the corporate interest of Kroger or any
pharmaceutical company. And so when you're constantly
like inhuating people with that,inundating people with that,
(11:42):
then they are bound to be drawn to a figure like Donald Trump.
And that is something that we lack, especially on the left.
It's not just that we fail at going to those places.
We're not building those. But it's difficult because you
can't really build a Joe Rogan that doesn't exist.
We certainly need to be focusingon the cultural issues that are,
that are persistent and constantand discussed by just regular
(12:04):
people everyday that we can thenbe priming them to think, oh,
Democrats are winning on the issue that I just talked about
in my day-to-day life, which Republicans certainly did.
A really good point, Jack. I wanted to say two things.
I think the reason why podcasts are doing so well now and why
they're going to do well in the future is because it's so easy
just to turn them on. Where you could be like cleaning
and listening to something. You could be driving, putting on
(12:25):
a podcast, whatever it is. So I think it's a lot easier to
consume #2 You bring up a good point about like showing people
that Democrats do care about a specific issue.
For example, the I think it was the the trans prison surgery ad
in Pennsylvania that that went, you know, that that the Trump
team was really putting a lot ofmoney behind Kamala Harris
basically saying that, hey, I'm going to, you know, provide
(12:47):
surgeries for trans inmates. Whatever you think about the
issue, don't really care. I think the reason why it did
well is not necessarily because like Americans hate trans
people. I think because it reinforced
something about Democrats that they only care about these
cultural issues, right? And I don't, we obviously don't
know. We obviously know that's not
true, but the average Americans?Who cared about the cultural
(13:08):
issue, right? It is.
Then we put 100. $1,000,000 behind the ad, but yeah, it's
been. Exactly.
It's been flipped on our asses to make it look like we don't
care about the economy, we don'tcare about rising prices, shit,
we don't care about the border and Alec.
That is the perception of Democrats in the mainstream.
So it's about actually going outthere and talking about issues
on every single platform. Talking about shit that's not
(13:29):
too pretty, right? Like housing policy.
Max loves this shit. He's amb and like talking about
housing policy and why we can't get affordable housing in local
cities. Max tells me about this all the
time. But talking about issues that
maybe aren't the most flashy buta lot of people will care about
once they hear them. Yeah, and I, I think the idea,
sorry Max to cut you off, the idea of like what the kitchen
table issues are have have sort of changed and.
(13:51):
More in a way, exactly. And I like to lay out like 3 or
4 of the kind of like weather political issues for me.
It's like, I, I call them that because it's like, what are the,
the political issues that peoplecan talk about in the same way
that they talk about the weather, right?
Like it's a cold 1 outside. It's like that's a nonsensical
nothing statement, right. When you say gas is expensive,
(14:11):
So where groceries, rent is up, sure, that's it's an observation
about the world, but it doesn't really like there's no
substance, there's no policy thought behind that.
There's no criticism of anything.
It's just something that people are constantly talking about.
It's the same of true. That's true of health and
Wellness where people are sayingthat, you know, our insurance
system is broken, our food is poison, things that people who
are apolitical talk about all the time.
(14:34):
It's again the same case when we're talking about, let's say
for an intervention, money beingsent to Ukraine, something that
I always see blowing up on social media and my friends who
are apolitical like it is when you know, oh, what?
So Joe Biden said $770 sent $770to to California, but Ukraine
got another however many bill just like this clear
(14:56):
misinformation. And the fourth one that I see a
lot, you know, is college. People talking about college
being a scam is really big in these right wing circles.
And as fewer young men are goingto college, this really preys
upon them. And of course, people who are
doing this are like crypto guys who want to sell you their
course, right? They're like, don't go to
college. Take my course.
It's 100 bucks a month on Patreon or whatever the fuck.
(15:17):
And so all of these issues, all of these basic issues, when
we're talking about cost, when we're talking about college,
when we're talking about health and Wellness, when we're talking
about, you know, our foreign intervention, like those four
things. I don't think anyone having like
an accidental apolitical, just kind of bumping into a
conversation with their friends has any perspective on that that
makes them feel positively aboutDemocrats.
(15:38):
The last time I think we had like a really, this breaks
through in the culture kind of talking point that we were
winning on without having to do shit, I think was when we were
talking about like criminal justice, right?
When we were talking about reforming policing, people
having those. Yeah, people having those
conversations. Sure, there were some people who
were overreacting and saying Democrats want to defund all
(16:00):
police while I was like. But I feel like when people were
having that conversation about policing, Democrats were winning
without having to do anything. When people were having
conversations years ago about gay marriage, right?
I feel like Democrats were winning that conversation
without having to do anything. When people talk about abortion,
Democrats are winning that that conversation without having to
do anything. And I feel like the issues that
(16:21):
were most important in this election, Republicans did a
really good job of connecting themselves culturally to without
having like to actually breakthrough with any of their
candidates. And that's what worries me so
much is that these things that people can just have, again, a
political conversations about where they don't feel like
they're picking a side when they're low information voters,
(16:41):
those conversations that are being had.
We are always attached to the institution fairly or unfairly
that people do not like. And often times when people
criticize that institution, we tell them they're wrong for
doing so rather than saying, actually, you're right to say
that college is a scam, but it'snot for the reason that Donald
(17:01):
Trump is telling you. It's not because like, you know,
oh, there's a bunch of people with blue hair at Columbia where
like with Jack, it's like, no, there's a bunch of liberals like
Jack and Columbia. It's like it's no, it's because
this administrative bloat that we have is causing kids to have
to pay 80 KA year. And it's like these schools are
so fucking greedy that if I go to Alabama, it's like I'm paying
tuition and I have to pay to go see them play football.
(17:23):
It's like, do you really need mymoney for that too?
And so like, that's where I think we're failing is that, you
know, people have this. And now I'm going going on my
whole long rant here, but it's like, you know, people have this
perception that we don't respondwell to institutional criticism
because we are the institution. But it's like we do want to
change it. We just have to stop telling
people it's like, no, you're. Wrong.
(17:44):
But we have to tell people it's like, actually, you're right,
but not for the reason that Donald Trump is telling you, not
the reason that JD Vance, not the reason that any of these
Republicans are telling you, because they want you to hate it
for the wrong reason. It's like, we love to hate shit.
Like we can unite behind that, but we got to tell people why
instead of no. Exactly.
Blaine and I was talking about this all the time.
He loves to argue with me. He's like, oh, like Mr. Too
(18:05):
Schless, Mr. Mate, Like, what doyou call me Blay?
It's a. Neolim.
I'm just kidding. He's not.
He's not a Neolim. Defender of the status quo.
Got to be the Neolim allegations.
It's I'm never going to beat it down, but but, but Blay lives to
Jack and Jack Blay lives made fun of it before, but it is
true, right? We, like I said, became the
nanny state. The the we're we're the mom,
(18:26):
right? We are the mom that says no, eat
your vegetables, go to bed. But that's wrong, right?
Like it's like you said, people are mad about things.
People feel this general sense of discontent and feel like
things are going wrong. And so instead of just being
Nope, actually the economy is good.
No, actually college is good. It's like that.
Terrible. Argument, right?
Like here's the thing, when we can fix these things, it's like
housing, right? Instead of listing out a 10 step
plan of how we're going to fix it and being like, oh here's all
(18:46):
this math and whatever, like just say yeah, it's too damn
expensive. Just say, just say shit.
Just like, say more stuff. We don't have to pretend like
it's wrong. I feel like we really lost out
on an opportunity, especially with, you know, how how focused
everyone in the country was, what was happening in LA when
rent prices skyrocket after likewhat, 137% that was a great
(19:09):
opportunity for us to say, here is why it is so difficult for
you to buy a house. Here is why rents are going up
so much because these landlords,these corporations whom we need
to relegate are willing to prey on you at any given moment.
And there is some rent controlling that's going on in
response to that. And I think it would have been
(19:30):
really smart to make that a cultural moment.
Our Democrats introduce some piece legislate.
I know, I know we did that. But it's like make a meal of it,
talk about it all the time. Connect it to Republican policy,
connect it to failures of like the corrupt billionaire
surrounding Donald Trump and howthey want to protect their
interest. It's like that is a conversation
and that people were having all of the time and without it being
(19:52):
political that we need to start investing in.
I want people to talk about, wow, did you see what what they
did with rent controls in LA? Did you see how high prices
were? Oh, like they're finally
imposing, you know, some protections on that.
If people can talk about that type of stuff and not even
register that they're talking about Democrats.
But again, framing people for when they hear these things,
(20:13):
again, that's a lot of success. You know, I was talking to
someone about. But the most effective kind of
more populist messages of Kamala's campaign.
And we're kind of going back andforth about the price caps
argument. And they're saying it was like,
well, you can't say that Kamala Harris didn't, you know, run
that much of A of a populist economic campaign or that she
didn't have these ideas. Because, you know, a a couple of
(20:34):
times in her speeches, she wouldtalk about these potential price
caps for for groceries. And I was like, yeah, Kamala
Harris talked about them in her speeches.
Like hear yourself like in her speeches, who, who is bumping
into politics? Who of the like thousands or 10s
of thousands or however many people on Election Day like
googled, Wait, is Joe Biden not running?
(20:56):
Do you think that person paid attention to a single Kamala
Harris speech? No, again, it's not like it's
not bad that we do speeches, butwe got to figure out that like,
people aren't bumping. In blood policy, blood the.
Zone. I've become the Steve Bannon of
the left. Like is what are you going to do
at this point? Yeah, and then like storm the
capital along with it. Make me make an instruction Max
(21:17):
and I'll. Be with Tucker Carlson and I'll
be like, I don't know, who am I?Why do you want to be Laura
Ingraham funding? Laura Ingraham.
I I saw the. Club and dribble guys.
I I saw the there's a a certain couple of guys that you can tell
that too. We're we're going to get into
basketball takes later or maybe just like for jaw, shut up and
put the gun down, Shut up and get off IG live.
(21:41):
I'm mad at the Grizzlies. I have a thing if we're we're
going to get into sports eventually.
I have a thing where anyone who performs well against LeBron in
a playoff series, I have like a five year embargo on ever liking
them. Oh.
That's so funny. So it's just like, I still hate
Jimmy Butler because I'm just like the 2020 finals.
It's like, you made me so upset.It's like, no, we won't.
(22:02):
I don't care. It's like if you perform well
against LeBron in a playoff series, The only exception that
I have for this is Jokic becauselike The only exception I have
for this is Jokic is because he beat LeBron.
And so if I hate Yokich and I'm cheering against him, then the
guy who beat LeBron like I don'twant to cheer for the guy who
keeps beating LeBron to be bad, right?
(22:23):
If like this is the crazy like gymnastics that I do in my mind,
like if Yokich goes down as likea top player, top five player of
all time, like I can justify LeBron losing to him all the.
Time, like I'm also like a top ten player, like what'd you do?
Exactly. It's like guys that LeBron beats
and they play well against him. Like John, that Memphis series,
or like Jimmy Butler. I'm always just like, I hate
(22:44):
you. Tatum is the same thing.
Obviously I'm a hate result. Jack, I hated Kevin Durant for
the longest. I was, we were curious how old
when he when he went to the Warriors like.
Was, what was it, 20? It was 2016.
I remember, I remember that. Was right after that 2016 season
where they choked the three to one lead and I was so fucking
pissed when. I I vividly remember I because
it was on the 4th of July, I remember.
(23:06):
It was. Because we were in you're Max in
21, but you're 20. Like where you guys are seniors,
right? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was 4th of July.
It was. It must have been in like 8th
grade then. I can't do that math I think.
We were going into 8th grade. We were Yep, we were going into
it was. Going into 8th grade, because
the Warriors were just blowing the 3-1 lead.
(23:27):
I remember that was a big part of everything I'd talk about
every day. And I remember it was like 4.
It was the 4th of July and for some reason, like I can't even
remember why that I think I got into a fight with my dad about
something was like he wanted me to help him was like turn on the
grill, like we're having people over, like we were something
like that. So I was just like, you know,
teenager pissed at my dad. And then like I look at like at
the Bleacher Report notice and it's like hemmer into the and
(23:49):
I'm like, I'm just like fuck this day, man.
As I was just like the whole daypout like pouting, like I didn't
watch the fireworks. I was just furious and just
stewing the whole time. Well, that's why, and I know
that we have some differences ofopinions maybe on the pod about
who is a preferable Super Bowl outcome.
Here is the difference that I have with people hating on the
Chiefs. And this goes back to my
greatness Thing with Jokic is that as a Foreigners fan, it's
(24:12):
like if we're going to like we lose always in the worst
horrific fashions and especiallyof late, if Mahomes is not the
greatest court, like he's the second greatest quarterback of
all time at this point, that I can justify losing to Mahomes.
Like I'm fine with that. I can justify losing to Mahomes.
And the difference with him likethis Chiefs team and that
17/18/19 teen Warriors team is like, it's not like Derrick
(24:34):
Henry like signed with the Chiefs.
It's a good point. Like you just brought in.
They're just practicing devil magic and some.
Yeah, yeah. It's like the Ouija board under
there or. Something they brought in Wash
DeAndre Hopkins. And I'm supposed to be mad that
they keep winning? It's.
Like Juju? Juju still on the team, right?
Juju was so bad in the preseasonthat the Patriots caught him.
The Patriots, yeah, who couldn'tscore like 12 points through
(24:56):
most of the season, and the Chiefs brought him in, and now
he works again because of the devil.
No, he had like a nice catch like last game and I'm like what
the fuck? How do they even have Juju
playing? Well, it is some dark black
magic. Happening.
It's insane. I love the Tony Romo bit during
during the Bills game when I don't even remember who it was.
I think it was one of their rookies who is like, I was like,
look at Holmes throwing that over the shoulder pass and he's
(25:18):
just like, I can't remember who it was.
Like the guy stepped out of bounds and he's like, it was
such a great pass, my, my Mahomes that he couldn't even
catch it because it was so great, because he had never had
a ball thrown to him like that. I was like, what are we doing,
man? What?
It's like, dude, It's like get off.
Why you're doing tricks, first of all, Jack, I'm a huge
Chargers fan, as you can tell. Like, that's terrible, OK?
(25:38):
You don't have to be that far. I went to Houston for the
playoff game. Like, that was even worse.
Yeah, Max was texting me like, yo, bud, are you OK?
Like what happened? He was going through it.
Why was like and I was. Always, always do that.
It's just like whenever your team loses.
Like it's the most I ever get text.
Messages. It's so annoying.
I had this one girl that's like,I have this one girl that's like
(25:59):
me and my roommate's friends, 'cause we're we're both huge
Chargers fans. So we went to Houston and she
had texted us. We have a group chat, a
screenshot of the fucking score 3 hours after the game, three
hours after the. Game I know, I know, I.
Was me and my roommate Sam looked at each other and we're
like, we're not responding. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
I got a secret for you guys. Do you guys want to know why I
(26:20):
texted him Boy after that? Let us know, of course.
He. I just wanted to rub he.
Wasn't as bad. He wasn't as bad as.
As he was wrong, I don't know ifyou go Justin Herbert coming, I
don't know if you all know TikTok superstar Aaron Parnas.
So he's a good friend of mine and he's a jets fan and when the
Niners beat The Jets to start the season, I was just like it's
like, all right, man, you're going to have another terrible
(26:40):
one and then you know, obviouslywhat happened this season
happened. I don't I don't blame anyone.
I don't know what like this whole we need to restructure
like maybe changes to the coaching staff.
It's like it's like and making it happen.
I'm like everyone was injured like Brock party was injured
through most of the season like and played.
I don't know, I wish Ben was here.
He's a really big 49ers fan and he's been talking about getting
(27:01):
rid of Shanahan and I yell at him every single podcast for
that. I'm like, you spoil a piece of
shit. I am.
You guys do not understand how it feels like to have a bad
coach. That's like with the same thing
that happened with Ohio State. It's like, what's your coach?
A what's his what's his first name?
Kyle? I don't follow a coach for
college football enough. But like the Ohio State coach
(27:21):
after they lost to Michigan. I know you have to be in
Michigan, but everyone's like, oh, you should be fired.
I'm like, there are not that many good coaches out there.
Ryan Day. Yeah, it's like, there's not
that many good coaches out there.
And that's why everyone would like constantly want coaching
turnover. It's just like, do you do you
know who is like, who's out there?
Who who would we have brought inlike Mike McCarthy if we had
fired Jan? And it's like, no, sure, we lose
(27:42):
in the Super Bowl. I was like, I'm like, I'm OK.
I'm not that. I'm only greedy with LeBron,
with my sports fandom, just because I know I'll have to talk
about LeBron. I'm possessive of LeBron.
We have a very close relationship.
But it's just like, I know I'm going to have to talk about
LeBron for the rest of my life. And I know I'm not going to be
talking about like the second Chiefs, Niners, Super Bowl and
like some. Conversation for Jack.
(28:03):
I am well. Hopefully we'll win one in the
next 40 years. That makes you like, makes it
that I don't have to. But like I'm not that possessive
of the other teams. I'm just like, just give me a
couple of wins. It's like I'll lose in a
divisional round. It's like I'm fine.
It's just like, make me not furious all the time.
It's more so I'm just sick of seeing the Chiefs win over and
over and over and. Over again.
(28:24):
I'm OK, yeah, I'm OK with it because I like the greatness.
But they're fans. It's not like they're Patriot
fans. It's like, no, I don't know
where the bad Chiefs are. Like the bad Chiefs are.
But like I was going to say. Eagles Saquon.
Sorry, Max. Eagles Saquon Barkley, bro, come
on, come on. Like I would love to see Saquon
get a championship. I like Jalen Hurts.
Philly Spring, you like Jalen Hurts?
(28:44):
I do like Jalen Hurts. I Jalen Hurts is middle class,
is my beloved to Herbert. I still like Jalen Hurts.
Jalen Hurts is a little corny for me.
I like I like Saquon a lot. I didn't really imagine.
Herbert on the Niners. Imagine that.
We'd be worse because Brock Purdy is the 6th best
quarterback in the league on Brock Purdy gets no credit.
But that's a whole different conversation.
Max, I'll let you go. I'm sorry.
(29:05):
I'm, no, I just wanted to ask, Imean, you're a 49ers fan.
I I've After 21 long years of declaring football to be all
like a just Cash Cash grab and like a time sink, I've decided
to clear my allegiance to the Buffalo Bills.
It's a terrible. Decision.
Listen, listen, listen. Listen.
Hate it all you want runs of thefamily, but Josh Allen.
Josh Allen humiliated the the Niners 3510.
(29:26):
What? How do you feel about that?
I mean, listen. I feel like I wasn't.
I think McCaffrey came back. Was that the game that McCaffrey
came back for or is that so? Yeah, the one that you got like
hurt in the first quarter is like, oh, this is great.
It's just like, let's waste a snow game that we're going to
lose on this. I was watching that on a plane
and it's like one of those things where I just I want to
(29:47):
express my rage and my anger, but there are people around me.
I always love when guys, when guys just like make it, are just
like trying to make a meal of it, just like trying to make a
big show on a plane. Like they got like got the hat
on or whatever. I was watching a Pack or
watching one of the Packers games.
I think it was Sunday Night Football.
I think it wasn't when they wereplaying the Eagles.
It was some other like 20 slot. Some guy had like his Packers
hat on. And just anytime anything would
(30:08):
have just I was like, I was like, we get like I see the hat
guy. Like we get it like you don't
have to. You don't have to be part of the
entertainment for us. Like you do not have to be doing
color commentary on this. So I was just like, I knew that
game was over. It was a snow game.
McCaffrey wasn't going to be able to play.
Like, is there any place that Josh Allen's going to be more
dominant than that? So I was just like this whole
season, I was just like, let's just pack it in after we lost to
(30:30):
the Vikings. And I know like what the Vikings
season was, but I was like, oh, that's that's where this thing
has gone. Because like when you lose the
Vikings, like, come on. And I think, I think Justin
Jefferson was like hurt through two quarters of that game and we
still lost. I was like, yeah, this thing's a
wrap. You gotta respect the Vikings.
I mean I know they lost to the Rams, but like after that
playoff loss maybe dude that So what happened with the Chargers
(30:52):
playoff loss? It was because it was the first
playoff game. It was so bad, but then like
every other game afterwards was kind of worse, so this everyone
just stopped talking about the charges.
I'm like thank God bro. I just that's true messages.
But you all are building something.
You have something going forwardtoo.
It's not like a Jim Harbaugh andit's not like the window is shut
type of thing. And I think it was like an over
performance. I don't know what the what the
(31:13):
line was at for for wins to start the season.
Seven wins for the season and wegot 11 so.
Again, that's like, that's like me as like if we can just like
perform, if we just can like notruin all of my Sundays, then I'm
happy. Jack, Jack, it's, I think it's
like Kamala Harris's election, you know, I think she.
It's just like, save a couple ofSenate seats.
Yeah. It's like as long as we win
(31:34):
Wisconsin, it's like I'm going to be fine.
Set the bar low so you're not disappointed.
Just don't completely shit the bed and you're good.
Right? That's that's the general.
She didn't lose New Jersey. Didn't lose New Jersey.
That's something I was talking. I don't know who was I talking
to this about, but I just had, Ijust had David Hogg on my show.
I was going to say yesterday, but the episode went out.
Today. He's running for vice chair.
So we were talking about that and he brought up how, you know,
(31:56):
he's still kind of reckoning with how a year ago he spoke to
Biden and he's like, what do I need to do to win young people?
And he said to me, I think he said this other places.
So I'm not breaking any news here.
He's like, I just wish I told him to drop out.
And, you know, with the Hagseth confirmation, which I think is
one of the worst thing things Republicans have done in a
while, I think the child tax credit might be quietly like
(32:17):
getting rid of that might be quietly the worst, like.
Make it. Make a list.
Add the list. Child poverty cut in half.
Get it out of here. Like that shit is crazy.
Like all the Republicans talkingabout I don't know who, the one
congressman who's like, I started working when I was 13.
High school, if you want it in high school, I'm like if you
want you want to deliver packages on like bicycles.
If if you want to eat in middle school, if you want breakfast,
(32:39):
then maybe you pick up a couple of shifts that'll work.
Drive me crazy. But the headset thing I think
might be one of the worst thingsRepublican has done in a while.
And I was thinking about it. I was like, not that I want to
do too much like Biden revisionist, like hate or
whatever, but if he'd stuck in the race, maybe like maybe we
lose Slotkin, maybe we lose Baldwin, maybe we lose Gallego.
(33:01):
I feel like Gallego would have won no matter what.
Maybe we lose Andy Kim. It's like if I had stayed in the
race, they might have confirmed Matt Gaetz.
Like I know people hate Matt Gaetz.
Like they might have confirmed Matt Gaetz.
And so maybe I'm too. Kamala lived up and I know you
guys had your conversation aboutwhat her next steps are for
2028. I I did the last.
(33:22):
Was that the last pod or two pods?
Yeah, I think it was the last pod.
Because you guys teased, you guys teased this one as a very
special guest. And I was like, it's like, now
I'm really going to have to deliver.
So, so hopefully that's come true.
But you know, when you think about it again and and like as
many, as many criticisms as you want to levy against the Kamla
campaign, it's like they did move the move the dial like
things got better. She her favorables improved
(33:45):
drastically throughout the entirety of the campaign.
All the states, all the states she campaigned in, were much
more narrow than the general shift everywhere.
And the economic messaging landed.
And so that's why I keep going back and forth.
And it's a criticism I've levieda lot.
I feel like I've just like, directed this conversation too
much in the pod. If you don't have one, like
something specific you want to talk about, I love.
This. I love this.
But it's the conversation I keephaving about these just like
(34:07):
really, I don't know if I, I don't want to demonetize you by
using this word, but it's like. We don't make any money like
you're good. And I guess we can say whatever
we want now, which is a whole another rant.
That I'm It's Trump's, America. It's Trump's.
America, but it's like all thesepussy ass billionaires who are
like, I think it was Stephanie Ruhle talking about.
It's like if I had fuck you money, I might say fuck you a
couple more times than these guys do.
(34:29):
And I think the, the perfect encapsulation of you having
money does not make you smart ishow stupid these guys read of
this thing is as like Trump is hopefully gone in four years.
And maybe there's just like thismassive change in the cultural
landscape of the country and there's this huge revitalization
of the like of the Democratic Party.
And like woke comes back. It's like I'm I'm missing woke
(34:50):
at this point. And these guys, their calculus,
they still think that the, the, the vote count from the night of
the election is how it played out.
Like right when we were like, itwas too close to call in
Virginia for like an hour or two, you then more so than it
usually is. And I think that they honestly
believe that there's been this massive cultural shift in the
(35:12):
country. Sure, Zuck is doing his thing
because he wants to appease Trump because he wants that FTC
case to go away. But I think these guys actually
think that there's this huge cultural movement that they're
trying to get on board with thatThere's just not, in my opinion,
I do think that Democrats certainly need to stake like,
big steps to better embed ourselves in the culture.
(35:33):
But I don't really think that America wants what the
Republican Party represents in terms of their cultural agenda.
I just think it was the economicpressure of this election.
Economic and also immigration too I think was a was a big
part. Sure, absolutely.
And I think you know the broken media environment.
And so on. How much of it is just people
what they're seeing? Like I was like, I say, it's
(35:53):
like you're, you're absolutely right.
And it's like, we have to change.
I mean, how much what you're seeing, what you're feeling like
if you want to capture this moment, it's like they're going
to overstep it. When all of a sudden ICE agents
are going into your local like restaurant, like going to
schools. Like when people see that,
they're going to be like, I mean, hold on, wait a minute.
I just wanted lower gas prices. When the fucking tariffs Jack up
our coffee prices 25%, people are going to be like, wait a
minute, wait a minute. I thought they paid the tariffs.
(36:14):
It's like, no, that's the thing.We pay again.
They're going to overstep this moment.
Like when all of a sudden whatever next right gets rolled
back, When Meals on Wheels gets cut, when the federal funding
for Cancer Research for all these vaccines and things, when
shit starts to hit the fan with bird flu.
When your eggs are $20. And it is.
In everyone's face, I cannot tell you how many friends have
(36:36):
talked to me about, you know, a buddy of mine applying to law
school right now and he's like, I, I got you are as well.
I know this. Sadly, that's awful.
I know this is a bad one. Like I, I'm not even applying to
law school and I get like Instagram reels where it's just
like the the bit where it's likeI'm not funny.
I applied to law school in like 2025.
(36:56):
It's like, it's just like everyone.
Could just kill me. It's awful.
Just kill me. But one of the programs that he
applied to, like send him an e-mail where it's like we don't
exist anymore because Trump got our funding.
I had a friend. I had a friend whose whose
partner is in the military and like they they don't know if
they're going to get their job or their appointment or move to
where they need to be because like we don't know if we're
(37:17):
hiring people. Like it is impacting people's
lives already in a way that's inescapable.
And again, like This is why I think that the over exaggeration
of this cultural moment is really going to come back to
bite these people in the ass because like they're kind of pot
committed to this being their worldview that they're browsing.
That's a good point to work. I think that's a.
That's a great point. And I think they're overstepping
(37:39):
with a lot of these issues. But I think as a Democrat to
kind of do have to understand that, like there are some issues
that are pretty unpopular with the American people.
And that doesn't mean you abandoned the issues, right?
You got to find a way to messagethem.
And like Max, we were talking about like, for example, like
the trans community, like approaching that with like
humility and, and being very compassionate, but also
(38:01):
approaching that with like a libertarian sense, Like, hey,
you do whatever the fuck you want in your life.
You know, like the government should not be reaching in and
telling you how to live your life.
Stop being weird. Stop being weird to people.
Stop asking another about their genitals you weirdos.
I think another issue that we had trouble with the last four
years is the border, like I am an immigrant, like my family
seek asylum when I was like 3 years old.
So I think I have like the rightto speak about this a bit.
(38:22):
And I think for for the first three years of violence
administration, right, it wasn'tthe border crossings weren't too
bad the first year and a half tosee a title, Title 42 in place.
And I think the first like afterTitle 42 was removed, it wasn't
as bad, but then it started getting like really bad in
terms. Of COVID too.
All the people. And then there were that.
Period. It was a horrible time, but we
(38:45):
downplayed it over and over and over.
You can't do that when a, the numbers are showing that like
500,000 people are entering the country when during the
President Obama's term, like 500,000 people would enter the
whole year, right? So I think that we, we also have
to understand that like some of these issues might not our
stance or our lack of a stance is not popular.
(39:06):
Like I wish Biden did come out earlier and be like, look, year
2 and year 2, we're going to getan Immigration Bill through.
Let's work through. You know, at that time he had
like a house and said I know youhave limited capital, but even
just talking about it that earlyor even issuing, he waited until
like year 3 1/2 to issue executive.
Orders, yeah. And and AOC said this.
It's like Donald Trump's plan, his immigration plan is like, is
(39:27):
it popular or have we not cut like properly communicated why
people should think it's unpopular and why they should
think it's bad because we just didn't talk about it.
Like that was the ammo. Like that was the end of the
parties. Just like when people ask about
immigration, deflect, don't talk, deflect, don't talk.
And it's just like, that's the problem.
Like when we come back to flooding the zone, talking about
these old things all the time, It's just like, have a stance,
(39:49):
say something, be nuanced. Like have some butts and some
umms in there. Like it's OK.
You can't because remember, likeagain, you have groups that are
these dip shits that come in andprotest your office saying like
you need open borders, you need these humane things.
When Sunrise Movement comes and yells at you saying the IRA
isn't big enough, it's like we had that awful feedback loop of.
Democratic groups and nonprofitsall demand you talk a certain
(40:09):
way, speak a certain way, talk about it.
Oh, immigration has to be this has to be that they're going to
punish you if you talk about it in a nuanced way.
And when we punish our party members like that, when we have
these nonprofit groups that punish members like we can't
have that. Like that's that's why they're
not doing this things. Like, again, why Biden didn't
come out and say these things, why he didn't come out and talk
about immigration, why they didn't do it is because if you
(40:30):
describe them as, remember during State of the Union,
right, he said like an illegal alien, he spoke about Lake and
Riley and then he had to apologize for it.
That is why they don't talk about these things.
I think there is too much like policing when it comes to that.
I will say, like Max, I think you retweeted on the account
like Barack Obama's speech on immigration back in 2008.
And I thought it was like, look,I am an immigrant.
(40:50):
Like, I'm literally an asylum seeker.
And I'm like, yeah, this is like, good.
This is what I agree with. Like, Obama was basically
talking about, look, if you're here, if you're here right now
and you're undocumented and you haven't committed any crimes and
you're working, we'll give you apathway.
You have to pay. Pay fine, go back.
You can't cut the line. You have to like at least try to
learn English. That is like extremely popular.
But then he said, if you're a criminal, you've committed, you
(41:11):
know any, if you've committed some bad crimes, we're sending
you back. And I'm like, that is the path
forward. Like that's the that's the
message that people agree with because people do have
compassion about people who havebeen here for like 20 years
working their ass off, paying taxes, right?
And now they have kids who were born here.
And there's nothing more deflationary than immigration,
right? It's like Springfield, OH was
(41:32):
such a funny example to me because it's like those were
people welcomed into a communityin the Rust Belt who single
handedly revitalized it, not only by working those important
jobs, but it allowed people in that community who didn't
previously have an employment and weren't going to have them
in those factories to then like work as drivers.
(41:55):
Like people were just like all these jobs were springing up for
people like to drive people around, like they'd have their
vans, they'd pick people up, translators, restaurants were
being revitalized. It's like it was great for the
community unity and it was deflationary.
Like the local officials were like, no, these people should be
here and now they're leaving in Mass and that'll be.
Very low crime rate too. And Speaking of the crime rate,
I think the the initial reporting about the detentions
(42:18):
and deportations that Trump has done is about, I don't want to
get these numbers wrong but who gives a fuck?
They just make sense even if they're a couple points off is
like 53% have been criminals. Saw the something?
Under Biden it was like 82%. Right.
Well, that's easy, but it but it's how you go in.
Again, immigration policy is hard because you want to do mass
deportations. Nobody ever talks about how
Obama got those deportations done, right?
(42:39):
Everyone talks about, oh, he gotall these deportations, right.
He was a deported chief. How did he do it though?
The point being is he went to jails.
They had ICE go to people who were already arrested, not going
to workplace. They also include that number in
it too, again, because it's about how you do these metrics,
right? Statistics are great because
either you understand them or you don't.
And you can always parse out whodoesn't understand them and then
(43:01):
you can call them a fucking moron because Obama went about
it in a humane, more humane way.You go to jails anyone who's
committed a crime. You go, let me look at your
status. Oh, you're already like in
court, Like I already have you in like custody, right?
All I have to do is check. Are you legal?
Are you not? Oh, you're not Bye, bye.
If you're illegal, then not my problem.
Like that's. And Obama also increased, from
what I know, he increased the applications for asylum seekers
(43:23):
too, and and refugees. So he had a very like balanced
approach to it that is popular with the American public.
I'm not saying that some asylum seeker was over, but like maybe,
but he balanced approach to it. And the the, you know, dreamers,
I mean, like, fuck, dreamers areso popular, dude.
Like if Trump decides to, I don't think he's stupid enough
to like go after dreamers again.I don't think he's stupid
(43:45):
enough. I mean, he was dumb enough to
pause. I don't.
Yeah, I was about to say like my, my position on this
administration, I was just really hoping that he was just
like going to be happy having the plane back and not having to
go to prison. But no, I I would be really
worried about some. Coke machine.
It's the only thing I respect about him.
If I was president, I too would have a button of people bringing
me coke all the time. Not the white monster button,
(44:07):
not the Don Junior type of coke.But but no, you made a, you made
a great point there where it's just like, yeah, like Dreamers
are really like really popular. We don't exactly know what's
popular in our plan yet because we don't talk about it right
until we talk about it. Then we can kind of figure out
what's popular, what's break, what breaks through again, why
people just have to say things and why like not to be fucking
(44:29):
blowing smoke for y'all, but like, why this is so important.
And I really appreciate the workthat y'all are doing right now
because we just need to figure out like I don't talk to people
and just like have conversations.
Maybe it's not even to figure out how to talk to people
because that just sounds so robotic and weird.
But just like, have the conversations people will.
Listen, like just listen and anda lot of the times the popular I
feel like you can and I feel like people are like, well, a
lot of populist don't have the right like policies.
(44:51):
I'm like no, like you don't exactly.
We said we don't know what is popular, like going out and
building housing and breaking some of these regulations and
and limiting, you know, what these local cities can do and
stop, you know, states coming infrom building housing that could
be really popular. And that's like good policy.
You can be policy so. Well, you don't even have to
sorry, not to cut you off, but like you don't even have to talk
policy. Here's the thing.
I belay also. I mean, again, Jack Belay is
(45:13):
always ragging on me because he's like, oh, I'm the populist.
Like we got to be with popular. But but here's the thing.
You don't even have to talk the policy talk the feeling.
Yeah, delay is right. Like I I had to, I spent like a
week thinking about it because he's like, dude, just just
channel the feeling. And I was like, no, but it's
incoherent. The policy is bad.
You don't tap rents and then artof like don't increase the
supply like that's not. Going to work.
But I. Just think it's a feeling.
(45:33):
Policy in a board room with a bunch of nerds like me who want
to talk about it. When you talk to people, all you
say is the rent is too damn highand they're going to go.
I like that and I agree because it is channel the feeling right.
Your prices are too damn high. You want to talk about a ten
step plan to increase increase supply and and and subsidized
demand like. Save that for the Elizabeth
(45:54):
Warren conference, which I love and I'm going to go to, but just
like, save it for that. Yeah, we need to keep having
these conversations. I do unfortunately have to run
to class, so we will have to save.
All the work you do too. I appreciate it.
So we'll have to save the rest of this conversation.
Hopefully it's not the first 100days.
Maybe we do it in the first 50 so we can speak again soon, but.
I appreciate y'all having me on.Let's make sure Ben and Ben and
(46:16):
Dylan are on too, because Ben will love talking to you.
About that, I know we didn't getto talk likers that much, so I
got to make sure we do that. It's OK.
Well, we'll talk to you after 2,Jack.
I'll get back everything. Of yours in the in the in the
comments section on our Twitter so.
I appreciate that. What?
Class do you have? It's a class on primates.
What's your major? Political science.
But I'm just like, I just have to feel like the last science
(46:37):
requirement for just like being here.
So I'm taking a class on primates.
Yeah. You graduating in.
I'm ready to be done. Yeah, I'm graduating.
Couldn't come soon, all of us. I don't know.
Are you? Are you from?
Where are you from, by the way? I'm from Florida, Orlando.
I'm from Orange County. Florida.
I saw that because you posted that.
I was like, is he from Orange County, California?
I was like, no, that doesn't look like it.
Moving out to LA soon though so I'll be seeing you guys not too
(47:00):
not too distant future. Dude, hit me up.
Yeah, we'll, we'll take you out.We'll.
To get him to Holland Rays, we'll give you the spiciest
chicken in in California. So good.
All right, Jack, it's great having you.
This has been an episode of Progressive with Jack Cochrella,
famous progressive YouTuber. Thanks so much.
Famous Whoa, you'll. Always be famous, Jack.
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