Jamie M. Lima and Michael Ringel explore the complexities of financial planning for families with special needs during divorce. They discuss structuring child support while considering government benefits and delve into special needs trusts and life insurance considerations. The importance of maintaining life insurance post-divorce is highlighted, alongside the benefits of ABLE accounts. Transition assistance and keeping the child's focus post-divorce are emphasized. The episode also examines the behavioral impacts of divorce on families with disabilities and the role of disability policies.
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(00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Broke Up NotBroken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire divorce process.
In today's episode of Broke Up Not Broken,we're joined by Michael Ringel, a financial
professional with strategies for wealth whobrings deep expertise in planning for families
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with special needs.
With a strong focus on protecting long termfinancial security, Michael helps families make
thoughtful, coordinated decisions, especiallyduring and after divorce.
And we're gonna discuss what divorcing parentsneed to know when they have a child with
special needs, including how to plan for twolifetimes, structure child support to preserve
government benefits, and coordinate estateplanning with an ex.
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So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, buckle up, and let's once again get you
financially empowered.
Mike, it's so great to have you with us today.
Oh, thanks very much.
I was looking forward to this for a long time.
Hey.
Like I like I said in our lead in, we're bothwe were chatting a couple minutes before we
started to hit the record button.
I've we're both financial professionals.
We've been doing all this work a long, longtime, both certified divorce financial
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analysts.
And this is one area that we see all the time,but nobody talks about it.
So I'm super happy to have this conversationwith you.
Yeah.
No.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's, it's something that we've been doing fora long time, and there are certain nuances
that, you know, families need to think aboutand divorce lawyers need to think about.
And so if we could educate people on, you know,what they need to know, and, it's gonna be
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great for everybody.
So I look forward to it.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You talk about this concept of planning for twolifetimes.
Let's just jump into it right there.
Sure.
So let's let's talk about that and some of yourthoughts on that.
Yeah.
So if if you really think about it, familiesthat we typically work with who have children
with special needs, not only do the parentsneed to plan for their lifetime and for their
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retirement, but they have to plan for thelifetime of their child with special needs.
A lot of times the families that we work withknow that they're going to have to find money
to be able to supplement their lifestyle whenthey're not here.
That's probably the biggest concern that a lotof families are thinking about is how do they
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plan for their lifetime now.
Typically, the child becomes an adult and for along time lives with the parents.
But we know with a 100% certainty that somedaythe parents are gonna be here.
So what has to happen next?
You know, where is there gonna be money forthat child?
Whether it be for housing, whether it be forreceiving government benefits, supplementing
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care.
And so we find that a lot of families are sooverwhelmed with what's going on in their day
to day lives.
They know this work needs to be done.
They just don't make it urgent.
And especially if somebody's going through thedivorce process, there needs to be coordination
during the process and post divorce and checksand balances along the way that need to be
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thought about that neurotypical and typicalfamilies don't have to consider.
And this and this is an area that we, you knowagain, you and I have been doing this work for
a long, long time, and we see all of a lot ofour clients that are in traditional financial
planning scenarios, right, where it's maybe andthere isn't a child with special needs
involved.
It's just this typical typical scenario.
(03:22):
Even those people ignore the estate planningpiece.
Right?
Like, I'm literally texting my dad right now.
Right.
Tell him to get off his ass and get it goingbecause I've been bugging him for two years
about it, and he's no spring chicken.
You know you know, god bless him.
He's seven years old.
Literally, this is his week of retirement.
He is that's why I keep texting.
His week of retirement.
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He still plays softball, still plays hockey.
The guy's an animal.
I think he's gonna live he thinks he thinkshe's gonna live forever.
We all know that's not the case, but they he'sstill ignoring the estate planning piece.
So, like, it's gotta be even more difficult fordivorcing people.
It definitely is.
And, you know, when you go through the divorceprocess or going through a divorce, there's so
much emotion and so much, I hate to say, a lotof hatred that goes back and that the lawyers
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are the ones that really need to take bothfamilies aside and say, look.
We really need to think about not only for youguys, we need to think about the kids.
And in a typical family, you know, most peoplethink about, okay, the child support and the
alimony, when is it gonna end?
But with a family with a child with specialneeds, that child support may never end.
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And that may be, you know, a sticking point,and people need lawyers have to get the clients
together to coordinate the estate planning.
Like, you know, talking with your dad, I don'tknow if if your mom's still around, but they
have to, you know, they have to coordinate itamongst themselves.
Now think about it if you're going through thedivorce and you have two people who have so
much animosity against each other, that theyhave to start thinking about, you know, their
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children and how to plan for their children andhow to make sure that money, you know, when
child support is paid doesn't disqualify theirchild with special needs from receiving the
government benefits that they're entitled toget.
See, any money that goes into their child'sname, anything more than $2,000 above the age
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of 18 will disqualify them from receivingbenefits including SSI, which stands for
supplemental security income, Medicaid, maybe,section eight housing, maybe other waivers.
So if the proper estate planning documentsaren't put in place and the proper financial
plan behind it, money going into that child'sname could disqualify them from receiving
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millions of dollars worth of benefitsthroughout their lifetime.
It's incredible.
Gigantic mistake.
Right?
So so, like, just to go backwards a little bitand unpack some of this, we've got the you've
got the attorneys who are dropping the ball,sounds like.
So attorneys need to be aware that this issomething that they need to talk to everybody
about.
Even in, like, you like, even in traditionalsettings.
Right?
Like, once that divorce is finalized, if youhad a if you had a trust and a will and all
(06:05):
that other stuff previously with your with yourspouse, that's all null and void.
Right?
So Yeah.
So let's go we've gotta start that wholeprocess over But if you're especially if you're
dealing with special needs, now you've gottawork with your your ex spouse at this point to
figure out what that's all gonna look like.
And then you've gotta be super smart about howyou're receiving those benefits is what I'm
understanding because Exactly.
(06:25):
You're disqualify that child from fromgovernmental support later.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Yeah.
Exactly.
And and the other thing to think about is,typically, what you wanna do is create a
special needs trust.
So there when it comes to estate planning,there are three options.
Right?
You could just have wills which leave money to,you know, spouse, ex spouse, or to the children
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directly.
So therefore, if an ex spouse leaves money to achild with special needs directly, right, that
money goes into their Social Security number,goes into their name.
Now if they're a minor, it'll go into a trust,but either way, it's in their name.
That will disqualify them at age 18 fromreceiving benefits.
So therefore, the money needs to be moved outof their name either into what is called an
(07:08):
able account.
I'll talk about that in a little bit or specialneeds trust.
Right?
Now when they're they're going through divorce,what I would recommend, and I've seen it many
times, is a divorce attorney writes into theagreement that they need to contact an attorney
who specializes in special needs planning andspecializes in the creation of special needs
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trusts, specifically a party special needstrust.
So therefore, when one of the spouses passesaway and money's left to the children, if any
money needs to go to the child with specialneeds, it actually goes into a special needs
trust.
If the money's in a special needs trust,doesn't matter how much is in there, it will
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protect your child from receiving governmentbenefits.
So the lawyers should actually be proactive andsay, you need to talk to a special needs
planning attorney to have a special needs trustcreated.
I I've worked with some divorce lawyers whospecifically named the attorney they're gonna
use.
Oh.
Right?
And you don't go you don't let your divorceattorney do this because that's not what they
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specialize in.
And you don't go to the attorney that closed onyour real estate or as your business attorney.
You go to an attorney who specializes inspecial needs planning.
So so let's talk about the I I I have a couplefollow-up questions here.
Number one being, I guess, on the financialside.
Right?
Sure.
We've we've had a couple of these cases.
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I have one case going on right now, with whichis involves special needs.
Yeah.
And the biggest argument the husband in thisparticular case is making is that, well, like,
I've I've I'm basically I'm paying childsupport all the way through to this, you know,
that my my kid's 18 or 19 depending on, youknow, what the scenario calls for as far as,
you know, high school and whatnot.
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And now I'm gonna have to pay like, how long dopeople have to pay?
Like, is it forever, or is it till 26?
Is it to like, what what
how long do to It's a great question.
It could be lifetime.
It could be lifetime.
And therefore, the money that's received by thechild needs to go to or should go into a
special needs trust.
(09:17):
Mhmm.
Right?
Should not go directly to the child.
Right?
Or or when I say child, I mean, you know, thechild of the, of the of the parents.
I mean, the child could be 21, 22, 23, 25.
I have a, you know, client who was a 26 yearold daughter with, Down syndrome.
And the ex husband is paying money into thespecial needs trust for the daughter.
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Now it's a party special needs trust as opposedto a party.
Now party means that the money goes to thedaughter theoretically.
Right?
It doesn't have to actually physically go toher, but but theoretically, it's a daughter's
money.
And in a party special needs trust, thebeneficiary the primary beneficiary is
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typically the state in which you live in if youreceive Medicaid benefits.
So the state you live in upon the passing ofthat child gets right to go after the money in
the trust to get reimbursed from Medicaid.
And then anything left over goes to maybesiblings or other beneficiaries.
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So in structuring the divorce, a a partyspecial needs trust may be needed to be created
so that the child support gets paid directlyinto that as opposed to money given in the
child's name, and it may be forever.
And that's that's a lot of families that I'vemet who are going through divorce, and the
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divorce rate for families with children withspecial needs is higher than a typical family
is because the amount of stress, you know,imposed on the parents.
And that's that's one of the reasons why.
And if if set up properly, right, things couldbe taken care of.
But if they're not set up properly, as youknow, if an estate plan is only as good as the
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financial planning behind it.
Right?
So your DAC could create all these phenomenaldocuments, but he doesn't make changes.
He doesn't change beneficiaries if they don'tdo certain things.
Like, my dad, my parents, when they passed,they had a they had a revocable trust as owning
all their assets.
So we didn't have to go to court, my brothersand I.
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We just they said who the assets went to andand we got them.
Yeah.
You know?
They made one or two little mistakes here,which really weren't big.
But it's like you said, it's really importantthat this stuff gets done.
And the problem is everybody thinks they'reinvincible, and it's never gonna happen to me
until it does.
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Yeah.
My ex wife is a perfect example of that.
Her father, who I never had a chance to meet,you know, he was had the his trust and had his
insurance plan insurance documents sitting onhis desk and Yeah.
You know, collecting collecting dust, gettingready to, you know, to be signed.
And he died on the side of the 15 Freeway whenshe was 18 years old.
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You know?
He got in car accident and bled out on the sideof the road, and that was it.
You know?
And and drastically changed her life because,you know, mom had to work multiple jobs to keep
a roof over her head, and and, you know, shewas a single mom for many, many years, you
know, and single and and and a single child.
Yeah.
That that that's true.
And It's just terrible that people, like, letthat happen.
It's horrible.
And and then there's something that you need tothink about as well, which I just got off the
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phone with a client and we were talking aboutit.
A lot of the times, as you know, in the divorceprocess, you know, there's life insurance,
which is a financial tool to be used to coverthe future payments of alimony and child
support, god forbid something happens to thethe the spouse that's paying it.
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Let's assume it's it's the father in this case.
Well, the question becomes how's that policyowned and who pays the premiums on it?
The attorneys we talk to always recommend notalways recommend, but they should be
recommending that the owner of the policy andthe person paying for the policy should be the
other spouse.
So therefore, I'm gonna use this case.
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If it's a husband and a wife and the husband'spaying child support and alimony to the wife
and and the kids, the wife should own the lifeinsurance on the husband's life, and they
should pay the premium.
Here's why.
What if the husband dies and doesn't pay thepremium, and the wife never knows this?
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I literally got off the phone before this callwith a client whose whose ex husband passed
away.
She went to go collect the life insurance, andthere wasn't any.
Mhmm.
He let it lapse four years ago, unbeknownst toher.
Happens all the time.
This is music to my ears.
(14:07):
I am so glad that what you're pounding thetable on this because I do it myself.
And I feel like it just falls on deaf earssometimes.
And for those of you out there that are in thisparticular situation, you're listening to this,
this is your opportunity to save your financialfuture and your kid's financial future for
basically peanuts every month.
(14:28):
I mean, you're talking about a million dollarpolicy on someone who's in relatively good
health is, what, $75 a month or $70 a month orsomething?
Like, I think that's what I'm paying myself fora million dollar policy for so my kids are
protected.
And if you if somebody owes you money, alimony,child support, there's some kind of a buyout
scenario.
There's a business involved.
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Whatever it is, if somebody owes you money, youshould be insuring the their lives, owning that
policy, and making those damn premium paymentson your own.
And even if your soon to be ex spouse is themost trustworthy person on the planet, it
doesn't mean his or her future spouse isn'tgonna put a bug in their ear one of these days
and go, you know, babe, I I'll you know I'mgonna take care of the kids.
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I love them like my own.
So we'll just, you know, make me thebeneficiary.
We'll make it super easy, and I'll just takecare of them.
And then the next thing you know, the stuffhits the fan, and she's running off with the
next pool boy.
I I've we've seen this time and time again, sothank you for bringing this up.
No.
I I appreciate it.
It it it hurts me when these things happen, andthey could have been prevented.
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It just does.
And it's not the time it's happened.
So my message and your message is to anybodywho's going through divorce is that they need
to take financial responsibility for themselvesand advocate for themselves just like they do
their children that they need to be in control.
And a lot of times, the the non CFO spouse, nonincome earning spouse is not the CFO and
(15:57):
doesn't know what's going on, and they need toget educated.
And the lawyers don't do it.
Right?
In my experience, the lawyers like, mostlawyers, they get paid by the hour.
They keep the case going.
And once the final agreement is done, once themarital support agreement is done, right, the
lawyer's done.
They're not involved in helping the clients getthe money.
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They're not involved in helping transfer themoney.
They're not involved in, like, we talked aboutthe financial planning behind it.
And here's one thing to really, really consideris now wouldn't it be great I'm gonna take a
pie in the sky.
Wouldn't it be great if during the divorceprocess, right, both parents, like, they could
hate each other, but hopefully love their kids.
And they work together to create a plan.
(16:41):
Right?
A a special needs plan for their child.
Now we talked about, you know, leaving thingsoutright.
You could disinherit a child, meaning you leaveeverything to another child.
You leave everything to a friend or relative orsomebody else.
And that's not a great strategy because if youleave money to somebody else with the hope that
they're gonna spend that money on your child,well, hope is not a strategy.
(17:05):
Yeah.
You know?
And therefore, the money let's say milliondollars came into your friend's world.
That million dollars is supposed to be takencare of for your child.
Your child gets government benefits becausethey don't have the money in their name, but
that money is susceptible to creditors,predators, divorce, gambling, drugs, whatever
it may be.
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So disinheriting a child is not a great plan.
And the only plan that really works and standsup over time is the creation of a special needs
trust, a party special needs trust.
And wouldn't it be great if both parents couldagree that that trust will be funded someday
with life insurance?
(17:47):
So imagine both parents said, okay.
You know what?
We wanna set money aside for our child.
We have to plan for two lifetimes.
We're going to get maybe a to die or to diepermanent life insurance.
Permanent because it has to show up someday.
Mhmm.
Right?
Term insurance is awesome because it covers youin the short term.
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And as you mentioned, it's relativelyinexpensive.
In my mind, it's the most expensive because itwill fall off your balance sheet someday.
And if you have a twenty year term policy,you're twenty years closer to mortality.
If you can even get it at all based uponchanging your health Mhmm.
And eventually, it'll go away.
So if you fund a special needs trust or aspecial needs trust that is a life insurance
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trust, we call it an ILIT, right, which is aninsurance irrevocable life insurance trust, and
you could do it on one parent or both of theparents, that money will show up someday.
It has to.
And imagine if a half a million, a millionfunneled funneled into that trust for the
benefit of your child.
What a difference that would make for them.
(18:55):
Incredible.
Would you prefer the party?
Because I know you mentioned earlier the partytrust.
Is the is the party the most advantageous formost people?
Or?
Yeah.
It is because it's created typically by theparents or grandparents.
The and the beneficiary on that could beanybody.
The state doesn't claim Medicaid, you know,payback from a party special needs trust.
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The party is typically used when money goesinto the child's name.
So if they earn too much money, they gotta moveit.
If they get a lot of gifts, if grandparentsdecide that they're gonna give the child money,
but don't leave it into a special needs trust.
Or maybe the child won a lawsuit because of amedical, you know, condition at birth.
(19:40):
Right?
When the money's in the child's name and theirSocial Security number, it needs to be moved
out.
And that goes into the party trust, which isalso known as a self settled trust or a payback
trust, meaning the state gets paid back.
I'm talking about a party special needs trustfunded with life insurance is a great way to
(20:01):
plan for two lifetimes.
Awesome.
And you Yeah.
You brought up the concept of the Able accountpreviously.
Can you go back to that and share what that'sall about?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So in 02/2017, under the Obama administration,the they they they basically created an account
called an Able account.
And the Able account is very similar to thefive twenty nine plan account for college.
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In fact, it's also under internal revenue codefive twenty nine.
And, basically, what it says is that a personwith special needs under the age of 26, which
is going to be expanded to, I believe, 46 nextyear, can move money out of their name or make
deposits or somebody else can make depositsinto an Able account that they open.
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That money in an Able account, and that couldalso be used for alimony as well.
I'm sorry, for child support.
Right?
So we could put money in there as well, butthere's a limit.
It can only be 19,000 a year.
It's based on the federal tax credit.
It could be the money is goes in after aftertax.
It grows tax free.
You could take it out tax free, and it can onlybe used for qualified expenses.
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Basically, almost anything to benefit yourchild with special needs.
Mhmm.
If not, then there's a taxes and 10% penalty.
It is a great financial tool if your child hassome financial or you wanna teach your child
some financial responsibility because theycould do they have the ability to do that and
(21:32):
limit the amount that you give them or theyuse.
So it's also a really good tool there as well.
The challenge is or the negative is that thepayback is very similar to a party trust.
The state gets the right to get the money outof the ABLE account upon the passing of your
(21:52):
child to pay back Medicaid.
The other thing to think about is, let's sayyou started saving for your child in a five
twenty nine plan, and your child's not gonna goto college.
You could roll their money or transfer it froma five twenty nine plan into an ABLE account
with no tax implication.
It grows tax free and you can take it out taxfree.
(22:15):
Again, just another tool that could be used inthe planning process that, you know, you and I
need to help guide our clients on as they gothrough the divorce process.
And more importantly, after the divorceprocess, when the lawyers leave because they're
done making their money and doing what they doand going through the divorce process, I'm sure
(22:36):
you experienced it.
They basically leave a client with a 70 to a100 page document and said, you're divorced.
Now go get your
Yeah.
And when this is why and and you know thisbecause you're a CDFA just like just like
myself.
It's we we call it transition assistance.
Right?
That's where we're I I tell people all thetime, like, when your when your divorce
attorney pat you on the back and gives you ahug and says, congratulations.
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You're divorced, and they walk away.
In many ways, our job's only half done becausewe have to go through the experience with that
client and help them open up the right accountsand process the Quadro and get the
distributions and make sure they have the rightaccounts to hold hold the proceeds from the
house sale, and how are they gonna invest them,and how are they gonna manage the cash flow,
and what's their budget gonna look like, and,you know, all the future financial planning
(23:18):
decisions they're gonna have to make.
That's where that's where we come in.
And it's not all about just, like, calculatingchild support and alimony and helping them
divide up assets.
It's all stuff that comes later.
Right?
I mean, there's there's just so much to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this just adds a level of complexity to itthat if you started thinking about it in the
(23:38):
process is make it part of the divorce processor make it part of the mediation or the
collaboration process.
Right?
Especially if you can somehow get the parentson on the same page when it comes to the kids.
Right?
The parents could hate each other.
Right?
But if they focus on what is best for the kids,I think the best thing is creating an Able
(24:00):
account or opening up an Able account, having aparty special needs trust created that's a
stand alone trust.
Meaning, it already has IRS, so EIN number.
It's not funded or typically not funded untilsome one of the parents or both parents pass
away because we typically wanna fund that withlife insurance.
(24:21):
Because what we discovered is most parents aregoing to pay for their child's lifestyle until
the day they die, and that's why we're planningfor two lifetimes.
It's it's incredible.
There's just so many really good powerfullessons that we've covered in just a short
short amount of time here today.
Let me let me ask you this question.
This is what I I call the carte blanche segmentof our of our discussion.
(24:43):
Like, is is there anything that you wannashare, any questions that I didn't ask you that
I should have asked you, anything that youwanna leave as far as, you know, a last message
or maybe some things we overlooked in our inour conversation today that people need to
hear?
Just focus on your kids.
It should be all about the kids.
You know?
Neurotypical, kids who have special needs.
I think that, you know, I've seen it too manytimes.
(25:07):
Parents go through divorce, parents hate eachother, which is okay, which is that's why they
get divorced.
Right?
Think of the kids.
How best to be able to provide support for themfor their lifetimes, be able to leave a legacy,
you know, be known as a good guy.
I know too many I know too many fathers, right,who who don't do that.
(25:30):
They don't do the right thing by the kids.
And, you know, putting a financial wedge inbetween kids at a certain age, they're not
gonna wanna be with you anymore.
They don't have to legally.
Right?
And in this case, you know, with somebody whoprobably lacks capacity, you know, you I think
you'd wanna take care of of your children.
So I would also find an attorney whospecializes in this.
(25:53):
I would work with a CBFA like yourself who canhelp guide people through the process of going
through divorce.
And, the divorce process is only as good as thefinancial planning behind it.
Right?
You get divorced, now what?
Like you said, you get that big document, youtake a highlighter, you put that action sheet
together.
(26:14):
know?
I I don't know about you, but I find that exspouses will speak to me.
They won't speak to their ex spouse.
And and just just be a stand up person.
I've I've come across too many people who youknow?
Yeah.
You go through divorce is one thing.
Just be a stand up person for your kids.
Yeah.
That's all.
Divorce tends to change people.
Right?
I mean, like, the the the most noble peoplethat, you know, you meet some days and then you
(26:39):
then you and you're they go through a divorce,and they're just like these totally different
people because it's taxing.
And like you said, they hate their ex spouse,and next thing you know, there's just I've seen
all kinds of crazy stuff happen.
I'm sure.
And and, you know, then the parents, you know,talk badly about the other parent to the other,
to the kids, and there's a wedge there andfinancial wedge.
(27:00):
Like, just focus on the kids.
You know, get divorced.
Make sure everything is set up properly.
Make sure if you're the ex spouse that you ownthe life insurance, you own the disability
insurance.
Now here's one that's not ever talked about.
What if, right, the income producing spousegets sick and they can't work?
(27:21):
Well, typically, this disability incomeinsurance, a lot of times group insurance
through a corporation, maybe an individualpolicy.
Right?
But believe it or not, there is divorcedisability policies out there that a yeah.
Exactly.
I found out about a years ago
that
a like, just like life insurance, you'reinsuring somebody's financial or or the ability
(27:46):
for them to produce income for your family.
Right?
Because that's what that's what we do.
We all go to work to produce income for ourfamily.
And when you get divorced, you have to produceincome for yourself and income for your ex and
the kids because you're paying, you know, childsupport and alimony.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
Mhmm. Well, we got life insurance, which isjust a financial tool to cover that economic
engine, god forbid, you pass away.
(28:08):
But what if you get sick and can't work?
One in four people sometime in their lifetimeare gonna get sick and can't work.
Yeah.
So there is disability the the divorcedisability policies that you can own on your
ex, pay for it.
It's not that much money.
So if they get sick and can't work, that youcan get paid the alimony and child support that
you're entitled to get.
(28:29):
That is incredible.
We we should do a whole show on just those,like, obscure things.
Because I've been financial planner for twentyyears, focused on divorce, and I've never heard
of this.
It's incredible.
I I found out about it ten years ago.
Nobody none of the attorneys know it exists.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's it.
That's my story.
I'm sticking with
(28:49):
it.
It was great.
Thank you so much, Mike, for
Thanks.
For being here with us today.
I really appreciate it.
Such good, good information.
For those of you that are listening, this issuch an incredibly important, often overlooked
aspect of divorce.
So for those of you out there with specialneeds, families, especially these childrens
that children that are involved in the divorce,some of the financial decisions that you're
(29:11):
gonna make during divorce will have lifelongimpacts to you.
So pay attention to this.
Go back and relisten to this episode becauselisten to it over again because, Mike, you just
dropped so many amazing nuggets of informationfor us, and and I learned so many things myself
through this experience.
So for our listeners who Thank you.
For our listeners who wanna learn more aboutMike's work or get in touch with or or get in
(29:35):
touch with him, visit mikewringle.com.
And you're facing the financial complexities ofdivorce and want some clarity around your
financial plan and your future, visit us atallegiantds.com.
My team and I are here to support you everystep of the way.
Don't forget to subscribe to Broke Up NotBroken for more empowering conversations.
And until next time, we'll see you again.
Welcome back to another episode of Broke Up NotBroken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire divorce process.
In today's episode of Broke Up Not Broken,we're joined by Michael Ringel, a financial
professional with strategies for wealth whobrings deep expertise in planning for families
(00:26):
with special needs.
With a strong focus on protecting long termfinancial security, Michael helps families make
thoughtful, coordinated decisions, especiallyduring and after divorce.
And we're gonna discuss what divorcing parentsneed to know when they have a child with
special needs, including how to plan for twolifetimes, structure child support to preserve
government benefits, and coordinate estateplanning with an ex.
(00:49):
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, buckle up, and let's once again get you
financially empowered.
Mike, it's so great to have you with us today.
Oh, thanks very much.
I was looking forward to this for a long time.
Hey.
Like I like I said in our lead in, we're bothwe were chatting a couple minutes before we
started to hit the record button.
I've we're both financial professionals.
We've been doing all this work a long, longtime, both certified divorce financial
(01:12):
analysts.
And this is one area that we see all the time,but nobody talks about it.
So I'm super happy to have this conversationwith you.
Yeah.
No.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's, it's something that we've been doing fora long time, and there are certain nuances
that, you know, families need to think aboutand divorce lawyers need to think about.
And so if we could educate people on, you know,what they need to know, and, it's gonna be
(01:37):
great for everybody.
So I look forward to it.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You talk about this concept of planning for twolifetimes.
Let's just jump into it right there.
Sure.
So let's let's talk about that and some of yourthoughts on that.
Yeah.
So if if you really think about it, familiesthat we typically work with who have children
with special needs, not only do the parentsneed to plan for their lifetime and for their
(01:57):
retirement, but they have to plan for thelifetime of their child with special needs.
A lot of times the families that we work withknow that they're going to have to find money
to be able to supplement their lifestyle whenthey're not here.
That's probably the biggest concern that a lotof families are thinking about is how do they
(02:19):
plan for their lifetime now.
Typically, the child becomes an adult and for along time lives with the parents.
But we know with a 100% certainty that somedaythe parents are gonna be here.
So what has to happen next?
You know, where is there gonna be money forthat child?
Whether it be for housing, whether it be forreceiving government benefits, supplementing
(02:40):
care.
And so we find that a lot of families are sooverwhelmed with what's going on in their day
to day lives.
They know this work needs to be done.
They just don't make it urgent.
And especially if somebody's going through thedivorce process, there needs to be coordination
during the process and post divorce and checksand balances along the way that need to be
(03:01):
thought about that neurotypical and typicalfamilies don't have to consider.
And this and this is an area that we, you knowagain, you and I have been doing this work for
a long, long time, and we see all of a lot ofour clients that are in traditional financial
planning scenarios, right, where it's maybe andthere isn't a child with special needs
involved.
It's just this typical typical scenario.
(03:22):
Even those people ignore the estate planningpiece.
Right?
Like, I'm literally texting my dad right now.
Right.
Tell him to get off his ass and get it goingbecause I've been bugging him for two years
about it, and he's no spring chicken.
You know you know, god bless him.
He's seven years old.
Literally, this is his week of retirement.
He is that's why I keep texting.
His week of retirement.
(03:43):
He still plays softball, still plays hockey.
The guy's an animal.
I think he's gonna live he thinks he thinkshe's gonna live forever.
We all know that's not the case, but they he'sstill ignoring the estate planning piece.
So, like, it's gotta be even more difficult fordivorcing people.
It definitely is.
And, you know, when you go through the divorceprocess or going through a divorce, there's so
much emotion and so much, I hate to say, a lotof hatred that goes back and that the lawyers
(04:10):
are the ones that really need to take bothfamilies aside and say, look.
We really need to think about not only for youguys, we need to think about the kids.
And in a typical family, you know, most peoplethink about, okay, the child support and the
alimony, when is it gonna end?
But with a family with a child with specialneeds, that child support may never end.
(04:30):
And that may be, you know, a sticking point,and people need lawyers have to get the clients
together to coordinate the estate planning.
Like, you know, talking with your dad, I don'tknow if if your mom's still around, but they
have to, you know, they have to coordinate itamongst themselves.
Now think about it if you're going through thedivorce and you have two people who have so
much animosity against each other, that theyhave to start thinking about, you know, their
(04:56):
children and how to plan for their children andhow to make sure that money, you know, when
child support is paid doesn't disqualify theirchild with special needs from receiving the
government benefits that they're entitled toget.
See, any money that goes into their child'sname, anything more than $2,000 above the age
(05:17):
of 18 will disqualify them from receivingbenefits including SSI, which stands for
supplemental security income, Medicaid, maybe,section eight housing, maybe other waivers.
So if the proper estate planning documentsaren't put in place and the proper financial
plan behind it, money going into that child'sname could disqualify them from receiving
(05:41):
millions of dollars worth of benefitsthroughout their lifetime.
It's incredible.
Gigantic mistake.
Right?
So so, like, just to go backwards a little bitand unpack some of this, we've got the you've
got the attorneys who are dropping the ball,sounds like.
So attorneys need to be aware that this issomething that they need to talk to everybody
about.
Even in, like, you like, even in traditionalsettings.
Right?
Like, once that divorce is finalized, if youhad a if you had a trust and a will and all
(06:05):
that other stuff previously with your with yourspouse, that's all null and void.
Right?
So Yeah.
So let's go we've gotta start that wholeprocess over But if you're especially if you're
dealing with special needs, now you've gottawork with your your ex spouse at this point to
figure out what that's all gonna look like.
And then you've gotta be super smart about howyou're receiving those benefits is what I'm
understanding because Exactly.
(06:25):
You're disqualify that child from fromgovernmental support later.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Yeah.
Exactly.
And and the other thing to think about is,typically, what you wanna do is create a
special needs trust.
So there when it comes to estate planning,there are three options.
Right?
You could just have wills which leave money to,you know, spouse, ex spouse, or to the children
(06:47):
directly.
So therefore, if an ex spouse leaves money to achild with special needs directly, right, that
money goes into their Social Security number,goes into their name.
Now if they're a minor, it'll go into a trust,but either way, it's in their name.
That will disqualify them at age 18 fromreceiving benefits.
So therefore, the money needs to be moved outof their name either into what is called an
(07:08):
able account.
I'll talk about that in a little bit or specialneeds trust.
Right?
Now when they're they're going through divorce,what I would recommend, and I've seen it many
times, is a divorce attorney writes into theagreement that they need to contact an attorney
who specializes in special needs planning andspecializes in the creation of special needs
(07:29):
trusts, specifically a party special needstrust.
So therefore, when one of the spouses passesaway and money's left to the children, if any
money needs to go to the child with specialneeds, it actually goes into a special needs
trust.
If the money's in a special needs trust,doesn't matter how much is in there, it will
(07:50):
protect your child from receiving governmentbenefits.
So the lawyers should actually be proactive andsay, you need to talk to a special needs
planning attorney to have a special needs trustcreated.
I I've worked with some divorce lawyers whospecifically named the attorney they're gonna
use.
Oh.
Right?
And you don't go you don't let your divorceattorney do this because that's not what they
(08:13):
specialize in.
And you don't go to the attorney that closed onyour real estate or as your business attorney.
You go to an attorney who specializes inspecial needs planning.
So so let's talk about the I I I have a couplefollow-up questions here.
Number one being, I guess, on the financialside.
Right?
Sure.
We've we've had a couple of these cases.
(08:33):
I have one case going on right now, with whichis involves special needs.
Yeah.
And the biggest argument the husband in thisparticular case is making is that, well, like,
I've I've I'm basically I'm paying childsupport all the way through to this, you know,
that my my kid's 18 or 19 depending on, youknow, what the scenario calls for as far as,
you know, high school and whatnot.
(08:56):
And now I'm gonna have to pay like, how long dopeople have to pay?
Like, is it forever, or is it till 26?
Is it to like, what what
how long do to It's a great question.
It could be lifetime.
It could be lifetime.
And therefore, the money that's received by thechild needs to go to or should go into a
special needs trust.
(09:17):
Mhmm.
Right?
Should not go directly to the child.
Right?
Or or when I say child, I mean, you know, thechild of the, of the of the parents.
I mean, the child could be 21, 22, 23, 25.
I have a, you know, client who was a 26 yearold daughter with, Down syndrome.
And the ex husband is paying money into thespecial needs trust for the daughter.
(09:40):
Now it's a party special needs trust as opposedto a party.
Now party means that the money goes to thedaughter theoretically.
Right?
It doesn't have to actually physically go toher, but but theoretically, it's a daughter's
money.
And in a party special needs trust, thebeneficiary the primary beneficiary is
(10:01):
typically the state in which you live in if youreceive Medicaid benefits.
So the state you live in upon the passing ofthat child gets right to go after the money in
the trust to get reimbursed from Medicaid.
And then anything left over goes to maybesiblings or other beneficiaries.
(10:26):
So in structuring the divorce, a a partyspecial needs trust may be needed to be created
so that the child support gets paid directlyinto that as opposed to money given in the
child's name, and it may be forever.
And that's that's a lot of families that I'vemet who are going through divorce, and the
(10:47):
divorce rate for families with children withspecial needs is higher than a typical family
is because the amount of stress, you know,imposed on the parents.
And that's that's one of the reasons why.
And if if set up properly, right, things couldbe taken care of.
But if they're not set up properly, as youknow, if an estate plan is only as good as the
(11:10):
financial planning behind it.
Right?
So your DAC could create all these phenomenaldocuments, but he doesn't make changes.
He doesn't change beneficiaries if they don'tdo certain things.
Like, my dad, my parents, when they passed,they had a they had a revocable trust as owning
all their assets.
So we didn't have to go to court, my brothersand I.
(11:33):
We just they said who the assets went to andand we got them.
Yeah.
You know?
They made one or two little mistakes here,which really weren't big.
But it's like you said, it's really importantthat this stuff gets done.
And the problem is everybody thinks they'reinvincible, and it's never gonna happen to me
until it does.
(11:53):
Yeah.
My ex wife is a perfect example of that.
Her father, who I never had a chance to meet,you know, he was had the his trust and had his
insurance plan insurance documents sitting onhis desk and Yeah.
You know, collecting collecting dust, gettingready to, you know, to be signed.
And he died on the side of the 15 Freeway whenshe was 18 years old.
(12:15):
You know?
He got in car accident and bled out on the sideof the road, and that was it.
You know?
And and drastically changed her life because,you know, mom had to work multiple jobs to keep
a roof over her head, and and, you know, shewas a single mom for many, many years, you
know, and single and and and a single child.
Yeah.
That that that's true.
And It's just terrible that people, like, letthat happen.
It's horrible.
And and then there's something that you need tothink about as well, which I just got off the
(12:40):
phone with a client and we were talking aboutit.
A lot of the times, as you know, in the divorceprocess, you know, there's life insurance,
which is a financial tool to be used to coverthe future payments of alimony and child
support, god forbid something happens to thethe the spouse that's paying it.
(13:00):
Let's assume it's it's the father in this case.
Well, the question becomes how's that policyowned and who pays the premiums on it?
The attorneys we talk to always recommend notalways recommend, but they should be
recommending that the owner of the policy andthe person paying for the policy should be the
other spouse.
So therefore, I'm gonna use this case.
(13:23):
If it's a husband and a wife and the husband'spaying child support and alimony to the wife
and and the kids, the wife should own the lifeinsurance on the husband's life, and they
should pay the premium.
Here's why.
What if the husband dies and doesn't pay thepremium, and the wife never knows this?
(13:45):
I literally got off the phone before this callwith a client whose whose ex husband passed
away.
She went to go collect the life insurance, andthere wasn't any.
Mhmm.
He let it lapse four years ago, unbeknownst toher.
Happens all the time.
This is music to my ears.
(14:07):
I am so glad that what you're pounding thetable on this because I do it myself.
And I feel like it just falls on deaf earssometimes.
And for those of you out there that are in thisparticular situation, you're listening to this,
this is your opportunity to save your financialfuture and your kid's financial future for
basically peanuts every month.
(14:28):
I mean, you're talking about a million dollarpolicy on someone who's in relatively good
health is, what, $75 a month or $70 a month orsomething?
Like, I think that's what I'm paying myself fora million dollar policy for so my kids are
protected.
And if you if somebody owes you money, alimony,child support, there's some kind of a buyout
scenario.
There's a business involved.
(14:48):
Whatever it is, if somebody owes you money, youshould be insuring the their lives, owning that
policy, and making those damn premium paymentson your own.
And even if your soon to be ex spouse is themost trustworthy person on the planet, it
doesn't mean his or her future spouse isn'tgonna put a bug in their ear one of these days
and go, you know, babe, I I'll you know I'mgonna take care of the kids.
(15:10):
I love them like my own.
So we'll just, you know, make me thebeneficiary.
We'll make it super easy, and I'll just takecare of them.
And then the next thing you know, the stuffhits the fan, and she's running off with the
next pool boy.
I I've we've seen this time and time again, sothank you for bringing this up.
No.
I I appreciate it.
It it it hurts me when these things happen, andthey could have been prevented.
(15:33):
It just does.
And it's not the time it's happened.
So my message and your message is to anybodywho's going through divorce is that they need
to take financial responsibility for themselvesand advocate for themselves just like they do
their children that they need to be in control.
And a lot of times, the the non CFO spouse, nonincome earning spouse is not the CFO and
(15:57):
doesn't know what's going on, and they need toget educated.
And the lawyers don't do it.
Right?
In my experience, the lawyers like, mostlawyers, they get paid by the hour.
They keep the case going.
And once the final agreement is done, once themarital support agreement is done, right, the
lawyer's done.
They're not involved in helping the clients getthe money.
(16:17):
They're not involved in helping transfer themoney.
They're not involved in, like, we talked aboutthe financial planning behind it.
And here's one thing to really, really consideris now wouldn't it be great I'm gonna take a
pie in the sky.
Wouldn't it be great if during the divorceprocess, right, both parents, like, they could
hate each other, but hopefully love their kids.
And they work together to create a plan.
(16:41):
Right?
A a special needs plan for their child.
Now we talked about, you know, leaving thingsoutright.
You could disinherit a child, meaning you leaveeverything to another child.
You leave everything to a friend or relative orsomebody else.
And that's not a great strategy because if youleave money to somebody else with the hope that
they're gonna spend that money on your child,well, hope is not a strategy.
(17:05):
Yeah.
You know?
And therefore, the money let's say milliondollars came into your friend's world.
That million dollars is supposed to be takencare of for your child.
Your child gets government benefits becausethey don't have the money in their name, but
that money is susceptible to creditors,predators, divorce, gambling, drugs, whatever
it may be.
(17:27):
So disinheriting a child is not a great plan.
And the only plan that really works and standsup over time is the creation of a special needs
trust, a party special needs trust.
And wouldn't it be great if both parents couldagree that that trust will be funded someday
with life insurance?
(17:47):
So imagine both parents said, okay.
You know what?
We wanna set money aside for our child.
We have to plan for two lifetimes.
We're going to get maybe a to die or to diepermanent life insurance.
Permanent because it has to show up someday.
Mhmm.
Right?
Term insurance is awesome because it covers youin the short term.
(18:08):
And as you mentioned, it's relativelyinexpensive.
In my mind, it's the most expensive because itwill fall off your balance sheet someday.
And if you have a twenty year term policy,you're twenty years closer to mortality.
If you can even get it at all based uponchanging your health Mhmm.
And eventually, it'll go away.
So if you fund a special needs trust or aspecial needs trust that is a life insurance
(18:32):
trust, we call it an ILIT, right, which is aninsurance irrevocable life insurance trust, and
you could do it on one parent or both of theparents, that money will show up someday.
It has to.
And imagine if a half a million, a millionfunneled funneled into that trust for the
benefit of your child.
What a difference that would make for them.
(18:55):
Incredible.
Would you prefer the party?
Because I know you mentioned earlier the partytrust.
Is the is the party the most advantageous formost people?
Or?
Yeah.
It is because it's created typically by theparents or grandparents.
The and the beneficiary on that could beanybody.
The state doesn't claim Medicaid, you know,payback from a party special needs trust.
(19:18):
The party is typically used when money goesinto the child's name.
So if they earn too much money, they gotta moveit.
If they get a lot of gifts, if grandparentsdecide that they're gonna give the child money,
but don't leave it into a special needs trust.
Or maybe the child won a lawsuit because of amedical, you know, condition at birth.
(19:40):
Right?
When the money's in the child's name and theirSocial Security number, it needs to be moved
out.
And that goes into the party trust, which isalso known as a self settled trust or a payback
trust, meaning the state gets paid back.
I'm talking about a party special needs trustfunded with life insurance is a great way to
(20:01):
plan for two lifetimes.
Awesome.
And you Yeah.
You brought up the concept of the Able accountpreviously.
Can you go back to that and share what that'sall about?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So in 02/2017, under the Obama administration,the they they they basically created an account
called an Able account.
And the Able account is very similar to thefive twenty nine plan account for college.
(20:25):
In fact, it's also under internal revenue codefive twenty nine.
And, basically, what it says is that a personwith special needs under the age of 26, which
is going to be expanded to, I believe, 46 nextyear, can move money out of their name or make
deposits or somebody else can make depositsinto an Able account that they open.
(20:47):
That money in an Able account, and that couldalso be used for alimony as well.
I'm sorry, for child support.
Right?
So we could put money in there as well, butthere's a limit.
It can only be 19,000 a year.
It's based on the federal tax credit.
It could be the money is goes in after aftertax.
It grows tax free.
You could take it out tax free, and it can onlybe used for qualified expenses.
(21:12):
Basically, almost anything to benefit yourchild with special needs.
Mhmm.
If not, then there's a taxes and 10% penalty.
It is a great financial tool if your child hassome financial or you wanna teach your child
some financial responsibility because theycould do they have the ability to do that and
(21:32):
limit the amount that you give them or theyuse.
So it's also a really good tool there as well.
The challenge is or the negative is that thepayback is very similar to a party trust.
The state gets the right to get the money outof the ABLE account upon the passing of your
(21:52):
child to pay back Medicaid.
The other thing to think about is, let's sayyou started saving for your child in a five
twenty nine plan, and your child's not gonna goto college.
You could roll their money or transfer it froma five twenty nine plan into an ABLE account
with no tax implication.
It grows tax free and you can take it out taxfree.
(22:15):
Again, just another tool that could be used inthe planning process that, you know, you and I
need to help guide our clients on as they gothrough the divorce process.
And more importantly, after the divorceprocess, when the lawyers leave because they're
done making their money and doing what they doand going through the divorce process, I'm sure
(22:36):
you experienced it.
They basically leave a client with a 70 to a100 page document and said, you're divorced.
Now go get your
Yeah.
And when this is why and and you know thisbecause you're a CDFA just like just like
myself.
It's we we call it transition assistance.
Right?
That's where we're I I tell people all thetime, like, when your when your divorce
attorney pat you on the back and gives you ahug and says, congratulations.
(22:57):
You're divorced, and they walk away.
In many ways, our job's only half done becausewe have to go through the experience with that
client and help them open up the right accountsand process the Quadro and get the
distributions and make sure they have the rightaccounts to hold hold the proceeds from the
house sale, and how are they gonna invest them,and how are they gonna manage the cash flow,
and what's their budget gonna look like, and,you know, all the future financial planning
(23:18):
decisions they're gonna have to make.
That's where that's where we come in.
And it's not all about just, like, calculatingchild support and alimony and helping them
divide up assets.
It's all stuff that comes later.
Right?
I mean, there's there's just so much to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this just adds a level of complexity to itthat if you started thinking about it in the
(23:38):
process is make it part of the divorce processor make it part of the mediation or the
collaboration process.
Right?
Especially if you can somehow get the parentson on the same page when it comes to the kids.
Right?
The parents could hate each other.
Right?
But if they focus on what is best for the kids,I think the best thing is creating an Able
(24:00):
account or opening up an Able account, having aparty special needs trust created that's a
stand alone trust.
Meaning, it already has IRS, so EIN number.
It's not funded or typically not funded untilsome one of the parents or both parents pass
away because we typically wanna fund that withlife insurance.
(24:21):
Because what we discovered is most parents aregoing to pay for their child's lifestyle until
the day they die, and that's why we're planningfor two lifetimes.
It's it's incredible.
There's just so many really good powerfullessons that we've covered in just a short
short amount of time here today.
Let me let me ask you this question.
This is what I I call the carte blanche segmentof our of our discussion.
(24:43):
Like, is is there anything that you wannashare, any questions that I didn't ask you that
I should have asked you, anything that youwanna leave as far as, you know, a last message
or maybe some things we overlooked in our inour conversation today that people need to
hear?
Just focus on your kids.
It should be all about the kids.
You know?
Neurotypical, kids who have special needs.
I think that, you know, I've seen it too manytimes.
(25:07):
Parents go through divorce, parents hate eachother, which is okay, which is that's why they
get divorced.
Right?
Think of the kids.
How best to be able to provide support for themfor their lifetimes, be able to leave a legacy,
you know, be known as a good guy.
I know too many I know too many fathers, right,who who don't do that.
(25:30):
They don't do the right thing by the kids.
And, you know, putting a financial wedge inbetween kids at a certain age, they're not
gonna wanna be with you anymore.
They don't have to legally.
Right?
And in this case, you know, with somebody whoprobably lacks capacity, you know, you I think
you'd wanna take care of of your children.
So I would also find an attorney whospecializes in this.
(25:53):
I would work with a CBFA like yourself who canhelp guide people through the process of going
through divorce.
And, the divorce process is only as good as thefinancial planning behind it.
Right?
You get divorced, now what?
Like you said, you get that big document, youtake a highlighter, you put that action sheet
together.
(26:14):
know?
I I don't know about you, but I find that exspouses will speak to me.
They won't speak to their ex spouse.
And and just just be a stand up person.
I've I've come across too many people who youknow?
Yeah.
You go through divorce is one thing.
Just be a stand up person for your kids.
Yeah.
That's all.
Divorce tends to change people.
Right?
I mean, like, the the the most noble peoplethat, you know, you meet some days and then you
(26:39):
then you and you're they go through a divorce,and they're just like these totally different
people because it's taxing.
And like you said, they hate their ex spouse,and next thing you know, there's just I've seen
all kinds of crazy stuff happen.
I'm sure.
And and, you know, then the parents, you know,talk badly about the other parent to the other,
to the kids, and there's a wedge there andfinancial wedge.
(27:00):
Like, just focus on the kids.
You know, get divorced.
Make sure everything is set up properly.
Make sure if you're the ex spouse that you ownthe life insurance, you own the disability
insurance.
Now here's one that's not ever talked about.
What if, right, the income producing spousegets sick and they can't work?
(27:21):
Well, typically, this disability incomeinsurance, a lot of times group insurance
through a corporation, maybe an individualpolicy.
Right?
But believe it or not, there is divorcedisability policies out there that a yeah.
Exactly.
I found out about a years ago
that
a like, just like life insurance, you'reinsuring somebody's financial or or the ability
(27:46):
for them to produce income for your family.
Right?
Because that's what that's what we do.
We all go to work to produce income for ourfamily.
And when you get divorced, you have to produceincome for yourself and income for your ex and
the kids because you're paying, you know, childsupport and alimony.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
Mhmm. Well, we got life insurance, which isjust a financial tool to cover that economic
engine, god forbid, you pass away.
(28:08):
But what if you get sick and can't work?
One in four people sometime in their lifetimeare gonna get sick and can't work.
Yeah.
So there is disability the the divorcedisability policies that you can own on your
ex, pay for it.
It's not that much money.
So if they get sick and can't work, that youcan get paid the alimony and child support that
you're entitled to get.
(28:29):
That is incredible.
We we should do a whole show on just those,like, obscure things.
Because I've been financial planner for twentyyears, focused on divorce, and I've never heard
of this.
It's incredible.
I I found out about it ten years ago.
Nobody none of the attorneys know it exists.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's it.
That's my story.
I'm sticking with
(28:49):
it.
It was great.
Thank you so much, Mike, for
Thanks.
For being here with us today.
I really appreciate it.
Such good, good information.
For those of you that are listening, this issuch an incredibly important, often overlooked
aspect of divorce.
So for those of you out there with specialneeds, families, especially these childrens
that children that are involved in the divorce,some of the financial decisions that you're
(29:11):
gonna make during divorce will have lifelongimpacts to you.
So pay attention to this.
Go back and relisten to this episode becauselisten to it over again because, Mike, you just
dropped so many amazing nuggets of informationfor us, and and I learned so many things myself
through this experience.
So for our listeners who Thank you.
For our listeners who wanna learn more aboutMike's work or get in touch with or or get in
(29:35):
touch with him, visit mikewringle.com.
And you're facing the financial complexities ofdivorce and want some clarity around your
financial plan and your future, visit us atallegiantds.com.
My team and I are here to support you everystep of the way.
Don't forget to subscribe to Broke Up NotBroken for more empowering conversations.
And until next time, we'll see you again.
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