July 2, 2025 • 35 mins
Jamie M. Lima and Lindsey Carnick dive into the role of narratives in relationships and their profound impact on the divorce process. They discuss how misunderstandings can have significant financial implications and explore the importance of therapy and support teams in facilitating effective communication during divorce. Challenges faced by high-stress professionals are addressed, with tools offered to navigate these difficulties. The episode highlights the power of stories on mental well-being and the present moment, introducing techniques for distinguishing reality and exploring mental time travel.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of broke up notbroken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your finances and your life
throughout the entire divorce process.
In today's episode of Broke Up Not Broken,we're gonna explore the financial and emotional
sides of life after divorce.
(00:25):
Today's guest is Lindsay Karnik, a licensedclinical social worker and owner of Onward
Psychological Services.
Lindsay brings a practical and tacticalapproach to improving mental health with a
focus on anxiety and relationship issues thatare key stressors for anyone navigating
divorce.
With a background serving high stressprofessionals from attorneys to entrepreneurs,
(00:46):
Lindsay is here to share strategies for stayingmentally grounded while making tough financial
decisions during divorce.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, buckle up, and let's once again get you
personally and financially empowered.
Lindsay, so great to have you here with ustoday.
Great to be here, Jamie.
Thanks.
I'm glad I, thought about my beverage of choiceahead of time.
(01:07):
Yeah.
Well, I'm still on coffee.
It's still a little early over here, but, youknow, that that may change later depending how
this conversation only kidding.
Only kidding.
Thanks thanks so much for joining me today.
I I, I'm super appreciative of the work thatyou do, you know, on the mental health side of
things, especially for people that are goingthrough divorce.
I mean, my my divorce, you know, eight yearsago now was was incredibly stressful,
(01:30):
incredibly challenging in so many differentways.
And if it weren't for folks like you, I don'tthink I could have survived.
So thank you for doing the work that you do.
Oh, well, I'm glad you found somebody who'shelpful to you.
That's great.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So let's let's talk a little bit about the workthat you do do.
Right?
So we talked to kinda the lead up here to ourour conversation.
So you you work with couples primarily and
(01:52):
Couples and individuals, not primarily.
And individuals and we're in virtually.
You're you're in Colorado Springs, but you workall all over the country apparently.
Yes.
I'm based in Colorado, and I see folks in 10states.
I'm licensed in 10 states.
Amazing.
And how did you get into this this work?
What what was your driving force?
Oh, gosh.
That's kind of a long and circuitous questionand story.
(02:14):
Guess not
We have time.
I don't know if we do.
Maybe maybe we could start, but maybe we couldsummarize by saying I'm someone who's always
been really interested in the human experienceand the stories that we have about the human
experience and how we sort of create thesenarratives to explain our own experience to
ourselves and how that implicates and impactsour next set of experiences, right, where we're
(02:39):
firing from, which as I'm sure you're veryfamiliar with, can be a significant factor in
how people react, let alone respond to otherpeople after a separation or when they're going
through a separation.
Right?
We very easily create very complicatednarratives that are always based in a kernel of
truth at least about the other person and theirmotivations and what they're doing and what
(03:02):
they're trying to do.
And then we start reacting according to thosenarratives, which sometimes have deviated from
the facts, and we're still responding to thenarrative as opposed to the facts.
We've kind of gotten off track.
And so I'm very interested in my own life andeveryone else's about our capacity to create
these storylines and react to those storylinesand get further and further away from real
(03:25):
lived experience and and how damaging that canbe.
Yeah.
Give me some examples of that, like how itplays out because I think some of our listeners
are living that right now.
For sure.
So certainly, I I wanna emphasize that in inevery storyline we have about another person or
an experience, there's always some truth.
Right?
Nothing is a complete fabrication.
(03:45):
It always starts out from a place of truth ifwe can call anything truth, some sort of
objective reality about what happened.
Or as they famously said, you know, just thefacts, madam, just the facts.
Right?
So there are a set of facts.
And then what happens for many of us undermany, many conditions is that we start to
create our own storyline around those factsthat slowly shifts how we perceive the facts
(04:12):
and the new things coming in, the new inputinto the system.
So if you are in any kind of relationship, andwe could say this for non romantic
relationships.
Right?
Person a does something.
Person B has some sort of feelings and reactionabout that, right?
And as person B sort of metabolizes thatexperience, they start to fill in all sorts of
(04:33):
blanks about why person A did that, what thatmight mean person A is gonna do in the future,
(04:54):
all sorts of metabolic responses, and bymetabolic, I mean feelings.
And then that gravely influences how we go backand interact with that person.
So if you believe, and we can again say this inabout any set of interactions between any two
people, that somebody did something becausethey don't respect you, which is a storyline by
(05:15):
the way.
That is a story.
That person doesn't respect me.
Now it's a story that may or may not have moreor less objective truth, whatever that means,
but it is a story about the way things are,which is different from the reality of the way
things are.
Most people do not get out of bed in themorning thinking, how can I ruin this other
person's day?
Most people get out of bed in the morningthinking, how can I get my needs met?
(05:38):
And sometimes in the course of relentlesslypursuing getting their own needs met, they ruin
the other person's day.
But usually, it's not maliciously intentional.
But if you believe or you start to create astory that says, that person did that set of
things because they don't respect me, theydon't like me, they don't think I'm smart, they
think I could get away with it, they think I'mdumb, they think I'm manipulatable, they think
(06:02):
I'm a doormat, You're creating a hugestoryline, okay, about how that person operates
and the place they're operating from.
And that storyline is gonna change how you comeback to them.
So if I'm Jamie, I'm gonna use us because it'seasy.
If I believe that something you did was basedout of disrespect for me or a lack of care for
(06:26):
me, how I interact with you in the future isgoing to be very, very different than if I
believed you made a mistake, or you had amoment of bad judgment, or you any one of a
number of other things other than you don'trespect me.
Right?
That has deep implications for what I do interms of interacting with you.
(06:47):
And what happens, we have a word for this inthere's a school of therapy called ACT, and in
ACT, we call it fusion and defusion, wherepeople become fused with their thoughts, and
they don't recognize them as thoughts.
They see them as reality.
Mhmm.
So I can have a thought about reality.
For example, I could have the thought like, oh,it's a beautiful day outside.
(07:10):
That's a thought about reality.
It's not the same as reality itself.
If you're a person who suffers from sunburn andyou're easy you you have sun allergies, it is
not a beautiful day for you outside.
The reality is the sun is shining.
It's a beautiful day is a thought aboutreality.
Right?
It's a judgment about reality.
Mhmm.
But we don't see that.
We're too close to our thoughts.
(07:31):
We're fused with our thoughts.
So we just go, it's a beautiful day.
That's the truth.
And then we don't understand why other peopleall of a sudden are not just in alignment with
that, because to us, it's just the way thingsare.
We don't see it as a construct about the waythings are.
Thoughts about reality are not the same asreality itself, and we don't see that in the
(07:53):
moment when we're having those thoughts.
We go, He doesn't respect me.
That's a thought about reality.
Mhmm.
That is not the same as reality itself.
Reality itself could be that person wasn'tthinking about you.
That person was thinking about themselves.
That person didn't see it as a respect issue.
That person still doesn't see it as being thatdeep.
I mean, we we can say a thousand things aboutthis.
(08:14):
Right?
And that's why we have disagreements.
Right?
Because people are living their own subjectivethoughts about reality.
Nobody's really touching reality itself.
Yeah.
And so in the context of divorce, this must youmust deal with this, like, literally every day
in the conversations you have, particularlywith couples.
A 100%.
(08:34):
Or or just individuals, quite Just individuals.
I mean, can tell, and we all have this.
Right?
You and I could sit down right now and make alist of all the places in our lives currently
where we have thoughts about reality thatprobably don't quite line up with objective
Right?
I mean, it's it's true.
We're meaning making machines.
That's how humans operate.
(08:55):
This is not a a fault per se.
The only thing we're sort of trying to movetowards is to be aware that our thoughts about
reality are not the same as reality itself sowe can stop being so confused why why everybody
else isn't on our page about reality.
And, yes, so everybody's doing this all thetime, including definitely people who are in
(09:17):
the in the course of some sort of separation ordivorce or post divorce because they're still
trying to make sense out of what happened, andmaking sense out of what happened is
essentially going, x y z occurred.
Alright.
Let me tell you why that is.
Because he doesn't respect me.
She doesn't like me.
He never loved me.
(09:38):
Right?
Like, I I'm trying to make sense out of thesethings that otherwise I don't have an answer
for.
That's what we do.
How does to to I I I'm thinking through this inthe context of the the financial aspects of
divorce.
So this might this must be intertwined some waysomehow.
I mean, like, how how are you seeing becauseand I'm sure a lot of the listeners that that
(10:00):
are listening to this right now are thinkinglike, that's happening.
Yes.
And there's also this particular this the samething is happening on the financial side in
this particular way.
Like, how do you see that unfold on on from afinancial perspective in divorce, like, with
the couples and For sure.
Even the individual individuals you're workingwith?
Yes.
Well, money I mean, money is such aninteresting added element to what we're talking
(10:21):
about because everybody also has a money story.
Right?
Money and finances have deep meaning to peoplebefore they ever get involved with someone else
and have sort of, like, conflicting storylines,right, about what money 100%.
Right?
Especially especially to if there's we and wesee this all the time.
If there's there's usually the one financialdecision maker in the in in the household, Not
(10:44):
to be stereotypical, but it's usually the dude.
And then we have, you know, the wife that'salong for the ride or the or the or the other
spouse is along for the ride.
And, you know, they're like, oh, like, they'vegot it all handled.
And then then next thing you know, divorce hitsthem, and they're like, woah.
I didn't I don't have it handled at all.
Now I've gotta figure this all out and unpackall that too.
Yes.
(11:04):
And I think it, you know, it can go in amillion different directions how how this sort
of plays out for people.
One can be all of a sudden people start readinginto financial decisions as having a different
meaning than they do.
So people might start to interpret like, oh,you did you did that to hurt me.
Oh, you did that so that I wouldn't be able todo this.
(11:26):
Oh, you right?
They start assigning this intention and sort oftrajectory to people's behavior Mhmm.
That might be true.
But might be true is not the same as is true.
And the danger is when we start treating it asis true.
You know, you end up in you're in mediation,you something comes up about the finances,
(11:47):
right, and you're you know, one person goes,Oh, I see what you're doing, or I I see what
you did there, and it's like, Wait, what?
And the other person's going, what did I dothere?
Right?
And most times, that's not the case.
That storyline that this person has in thecontext of, you know, high emotions and high
stakes and difficult experiences, default tosort of a position of defensiveness and
(12:13):
offensiveness of going all of a sudden like,you tried to screw me.
You you were gonna yeah.
And this other person's going like, look.
Just because we're getting divorced doesn'tmean I turned into, like, the devil here.
Like, no.
I wouldn't It's not doctor Jericho and misterHyde.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Right.
But, of course, when your feelings are hurtand, you know, often in divorce or separation,
(12:35):
there are a lot of hurt feelings or a lot ofhard feelings.
Right?
It it becomes very sort of easy for people toretroactively they're now looking for evidence
to confirm that, yes, in fact, this marriagehas become a bad thing, this person's a bad
person, and I should be look.
There's another piece of evidence.
You you did this thing, and that's how did Inever see that?
Right?
And that fits into this bigger storyline aboutwhy they're splitting up.
(12:59):
And and part of the goal, I think, for any ofus, whether it's in a separation or some other
complete circumstance, is to not let ourfeelings sort of dictate how we are
categorizing the facts.
Right?
Mhmm.
So someone can do something.
Let's just use a somebody can make a mistake, afinancial mistake.
(13:20):
Okay?
Look, I don't know what a low level financialmistake would be, but let's just pick one.
You know, they they blew a thousand dollars onsomething dumb.
And the other and they hid it from the otherperson.
Right?
Now that's that's dumb.
It's a dumb mistake.
People make dumb mistakes all the time,especially with money.
And in the course of some conversation herethat hadn't been had before where now there are
(13:41):
hard feelings, the second person might look atthat financial mistake that a thousand dollars
ago, you were hiding things from me.
You were you were you were trying to get awaywith something.
Because that fits the new narrative of we'renot friends anymore, or we don't belong
together, or we're not a fit, or you do badthings, or you're selfish.
Right?
Whereas if they weren't under those conditions,they'd be like, well, that was dumb.
(14:02):
Could you tell me next time?
Right?
I mean, same fact, two very differentstorylines.
Two different two very different responses.
Yeah.
Presents.
Yeah.
And thusly, two different responses.
And we know that.
Right?
You know, you can ask any any small child on aplayground, you know, if you if you tell if
some small child accidentally gets elbowed inthe face by his buddy on the playground and you
(14:25):
tell him, you know, one friend the third friendsays, oh, he didn't mean it.
It was an accident.
You guys should still be friends.
Then the kid will be like, okay.
And if the other kid tries to hype him up andhe's like, he was totally trying to get you and
steal your dump truck, the kid's gonna be like,you know, it's on like Donkey Kong.
So we we know that the stories that we tellourselves, which is as significant as the
(14:47):
stories other people tell us, will absolutelypush us in a meaning making direction that has
significant consequences for do you go politelyask for your dump truck back because you
recognize that was an accident, or do you goover there and try and pummel your buddy in the
sandbox?
Right?
There's definitely action consequences to thosestories that we buy into.
One of the things that, in my particular case,happened is we went through couples therapy,
(15:13):
you know, very early on, and and it was it itkinda fell apart, especially when it came down
to the financial discussion, which wasbasically like, hey.
We've been talking about you going back to workfor, like, what feels like forever.
You don't wanna do this.
Like, you know, like, here we are.
Like, if this doesn't straighten up, we'regonna go in a different direction.
Right?
What about so to to to help couples that aregoing, like, starting this process and and
(15:37):
they're maybe this is the first time thatthey've worked with a therapist either
individually or as a couple.
What are some of the some of the things youwant them to be thinking about as they head
into that first conversation to help them, youknow, make communicate better around not only
finances, but are all the other aspects of oftheir lives, maybe in such a way so they can
try to avoid future conflict.
(15:59):
Right?
And try to to to to avoid going to courts andhaving attorneys involved and so on and so
forth.
Because we work with so many clients that aregoing through this experience, which is a
tragic experience all the way around no matterhow you slice it, but the ones that are working
together to resolve their differences throughmediation, which is what we take people through
(16:21):
mediation, and it's just an overall betterexperience.
So, like, how do we get more people to leveragetherapy and share their emotions and and
communicate better?
Like like, how do we get more people going downthat path versus the other path, which is where
we help people as an advocate, and we'rebasically on team Lindsay.
(16:42):
And, you know, like you said, like, Donkey Kongand the gloves are coming off here.
Like, that's that's how we operate as well.
But if we can try to avoid those scenarios andget people going you know, working together,
communicating well, and going down themediation path versus the other path, that's
that would be the ideal scenario.
Thoughts on that?
Yes.
In the case where everybody's safe and there'snot a safety issue, that that people are
(17:06):
generally emotionally and physically safe.
I think one of the most encouraging things wecan do is is help people understand that
ultimately having a calm experience, having asmuch tranquility as possible is good for
everyone.
And that if you try and punish this otherperson, you're also gonna punish yourself.
(17:26):
Mhmm.
There is no way you don't get punished in thatin the process of trying to punish someone
else.
It's inevitable.
It may just be emotionally punishing, butemotionally punishing is bad.
And you both are gonna have to go on and liveyour lives.
Right?
And an important question becomes is like, hey.
After this is all over, how are you?
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And how can we set you up for success as anindividual going forward even if it's without
this person?
Right?
You're gonna have a life after this separation,and we want you to have a happy, healthy life.
And part of that happy, healthy life is owningyour own stuff and communicating like an adult.
And to the degree that you can practice thatskill throughout the course of this very, very
(18:11):
difficult process is gonna be helpful to you inthe long run.
Mhmm.
So I think it's really helpful for people, ifif possible, to see an individual therapist as
well as maybe, like, a couples therapist
That's a good point.
Going through this.
Because there are some things that, you know,people would benefit from metabolizing, as it
(18:33):
were, processing, they call it, but I call itmetabolizing, that aren't constructive to
metabolize in front of the other person.
Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able toget it off your chest, but getting it off your
chest in front of that other person is notgoing to go somewhere constructive.
It is going to have a net loss effect on theproductivity of this process.
So you need a different outlet away from thatperson to talk about those things so that you
(18:57):
can come back to the group interaction and showup and be constructive.
And so I would really encourage people to thinkof getting involved with professionals, whether
that's a therapist or a couples therapist or,you know, what you're doing, you know, in
mediation and any of these sort of services asa way to really set yourself up individually
(19:17):
for success going forward.
And maybe sometimes people have a little bit oflike, I'm not I'm mad at this person, and I I
don't I'm not gonna give them the satisfactionor benefit of me showing up tranquil.
No.
That's for you.
It's better for you.
When your blood pressure's lower, that's betterfor you.
It's also more pleasant for the other person,but never mind that.
It's better for you.
But I think that's really important.
(19:39):
You mentioned working with professionals, youknow, and I and I'm a big fan of that.
I talk about that, you know, in any opportunityI get.
Like, you need to create team you when you'regoing into this divorce.
Right?
Like, your financial professionals, your legalprofessional, your psychological professional,
you name it, surround yourself by all thoseamazing people.
(19:59):
But I want you know, thinking the the thinkingabout professionals, I mean, one of the you
work with some pretty high stress individuals,professionals of businesses and and and such.
Right?
So like, are there any unique, I guess, youknow, financial or emotional challenges that
they face?
Like, how do they stay in control during theirdivorce?
Because there's a lot at stake.
Sure.
Sometimes folks in coming from thosebackgrounds have the hardest time because
(20:24):
they're so used to being in control of so much,and so much of this process feels out of
control.
And I would say that's the biggest challengethose folks face is accepting that, a, there's
not a quick solution.
This is not going to get fixed.
It's not gonna get solved overnight.
It's going to be, in most cases, a prettyincremental process, right, that rarely is is
(20:48):
expeditious.
Usually, it takes a long time.
Mhmm.
And and helping people make peace with that andhelping people learn to be in their lives and
live their lives and not feel like they're onhiatus until this thing is in the rear of your
mirror.
Cause we don't know how long that's gonna be.
(21:08):
Right?
And sometimes, as you know, it can be reallydrawn out.
So I think helping people think about thisprocess as, yes, something that's happening,
and of course it's huge, and of course atdifferent moments it's gonna blot out the sun
more than others to you, right?
And also, how do you keep engaging in your lifein a meaningful building way and not put your
(21:32):
life on hold until this thing is resolved?
Because we don't always know when that's gonnahappen.
It's so incredibly tough because, I mean, asthe owner of two businesses myself and I I
didn't own the businesses while I was goingthrough my divorce, but some things had came
up, you know, years later.
We had to go back to court for different thingsand what have you.
And even that was just challenging.
(21:53):
I can't even imagine having to go through,like, the entirety of my divorce being the
owner of, you know, now just a small companyalone was a big deal to me and very stressful
and had an impact not only on my on my physicalhealth, but also, you know, certainly my my
mental health and and and everything else.
Like, these CEOs and these these, you know,heavy hitters of these big corporations, like,
(22:19):
they don't just get to take a day off.
And, like so, like, what are what are some ofthe practical or I I I tools that we use I use
the the word tactical in the lead up to thisbecause I think with a lot of the work you do
is about giving tactical tools to these tothese to your clients.
So are there are there anything specific youcan share there?
Yes.
(22:39):
That takes us a little bit back to the idea ofstories and and the power of a story and living
inside a story.
So let me just point something out that'shappening for both of us right now.
You are in what looks to be a climatecontrolled environment.
Yeah?
Mhmm.
As am I.
You have this nice background.
The lighting looks good.
I mean, are you comfortable right now?
I'm doing pretty good.
Yeah.
And I spend a lot of time at HomeGoods as youcan as you can tell.
(23:02):
I spend a lot of time on the weekends.
Lindsay, that's something only kidding.
It's it's positively idyllic.
Yeah.
And so you're very comfortable right now, andI'm very comfortable in my environment.
Right?
You and I could both make ourselves miserableright now simply by thinking about something
that upsets us.
Mhmm.
Right?
No.
(23:22):
Absolutely.
Good this is.
I just did it.
There you go.
Did you see my frown when I thought about I'mnot gonna name them.
Not gonna say anything, but I thought aboutthis one thing or this one person and then my
The
pink elephant.
Yes.
So what I encourage people to notice, and Ithink this is sound it it is simple, but
(23:43):
certainly not easy and certainly notsimplistic, is that often we are fine.
Things are fine.
You're in your climate controlled environment.
I'm in my climate controlled environment.
It's good.
And if it's not good, it's because we've gottencaught up in a story about what's not happening
right now.
And often people who are going through thesemajor life events which are legitimately
(24:05):
stressful and awful and hard and brutal andgrief inducing and all of those things spend a
lot of time suffering when the thing isn'thappening because it's happening up here.
Right?
So there are folks, for example, who are goingthrough very, very difficult separations,
right, with all the components that we couldname that cause suffering and grief in in
(24:29):
separations and the endings of ofrelationships.
And there are moments while all that's going onthat are perfectly lovely.
Except those people aren't experiencing thosemoments because even though they are, fill in
the blank, at the beach with friends, withdoing lovely things, they're not present in
(24:51):
that space where everything's lovely because uphere, they are imagining some terrible
conversation they had with this person who hadthe audacity to say x y z q r p or how the next
hearing might go at which they might have theaudacity to say ABC, FYG.
Like, they are robbing themselves of the goodmoments where everything's perfectly fine by
(25:14):
living the bad moments up here.
It's a remarkable thing.
You know, your body is always in the present,your mind can time travel.
Right?
100%.
And so the thing, the skill that I think ismost important for everybody to cultivate quite
frankly, not just folks who are going throughwhat we're talking about, but this is a great
example, is to be able to drop yourself intothe present and go, you know what?
(25:36):
That's not happening right now.
I am not in a terrible hearing mediation awfulwhatever at this moment.
I'm that's not I'm on the beach.
I'm with my kids on the back porch.
I'm with my siblings, whatever the thing is.
I'm I'm playing around the golf.
I'm here, and this is good.
(25:57):
Right?
And to be able to notice that when we timetravel up here into what's already happened
reliving, right, on loop, the horror show ofthe mediation last time or fantasizing on loop
about the horror that mediation will be nexttime.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We are putting ourselves through thisabsolutely unnecessary suffering that's not
(26:20):
happening.
It's not happening in your office.
It's not
happening at so difficult, though.
Like, I've I've been there.
I'm like, everything you're describing, Iremember being I was in Puerto Vallarta with my
with my now wife.
I've essentially married and, you know,extended family and some friends and the whole
thing.
And we were dealing I I don't know.
I this was, I don't know, four years ago,whatever it was.
(26:41):
And we were dealing with some situation goingback to court and everything else.
And I'm like, I I just I just could not enjoymyself the whole time.
Like, it took I I physically this I I rememberhaving this physical sensation where it took me
four days of a seven day vacation to finallyfeel like I can relax.
Just in time to start thinking about gettingback on the airplane to go back to the, you
(27:04):
know, I'll just say it, the shit storm that Iwas face I was facing when I got home.
You know, it it's it's it's so difficult,though.
It is difficult.
And part of what makes it difficult, do youremember we were talking a few minutes ago
about not noticing that you're treating yourthoughts about reality as reality itself?
Yeah.
When we can start to do that, when we can go,oh, I'm not in a court hearing.
(27:28):
I'm thinking about a court hearing.
We start to distance ourselves.
It's the same thing that happens when you're Idon't know if you watch horror movies or action
movies or what.
But do you watch horror movies or actionmovies?
I'm not a big horror guy, but I'm gonna I Icould do action movies for sure.
You're action movies?
Okay.
So you're in a movie theater.
K?
And you're watching the latest MissionImpossible, and there's poor old Tom Cruise
(27:49):
hanging from a helicopter brother.
Right?
And his fingers are like, like slowly comingopen.
Right?
And you're like, you know, your heart rate'sgoing up.
That's why these movies are fun because theyelicit a physiological response called a
thrill.
I'm not gonna them thrillers in this genre.
Right?
Or horrors in that genre.
And so there's Tom Cruise slowly losing hisgrip on this helicopter rudder, and you're
like, oh, no.
(28:11):
This is the end for Tom.
Oh, no.
And your heart's pounding away, and you'regetting a little sweaty.
And then all of a sudden, your kid, like,throws a piece of popcorn at the side of your
face, and you're like, and all a sudden, you'rebrought back to reality.
Oh, this is a movie.
Nobody ever watched somebody fall out of ahelicopter and ate popcorn at the same time.
(28:31):
That's not a thing.
Or nobody ever watched, like, vampires takeover a town while they were eating Junior Mints
and slurping Diet Coke.
That's not a thing.
Right?
And so just like watching a horror movie thatyour physiology gets caught up in because your
neurology doesn't know the difference between amovie and a real thing.
(28:53):
It elicits the same response in your neurology.
That's why thrillers and horror movie work, isyour body doesn't care if you're eating
popcorn.
It's like that person's getting slashed.
Right?
And you have this response.
If we can start to cultivate the skill of sortof noticing that we're caught up in the mind
movie.
Okay?
(29:13):
It's the same thing that happens when you'recaught up in a dream.
You're having a bad dream.
Right?
You're falling through space or you're beingchased and you're it's terrible and your
heart's pounding, and all of sudden you wake upand you go, oh, that's not happening right now.
I'm I'm in my bedroom.
There's my stuffed animal.
You know, there's my dog.
There's my spouse.
(29:34):
Whatever.
Right?
And all of a sudden, you've you've woken upfrom the dream, and you you're very aware
suddenly that one thing is real and one thingis not real.
And you go, oh god.
That felt so real.
Oh, that was that was so awful.
Right?
I really felt like I was being chased by a Yetior whatever you were being chased by in your
dream.
And similarly, we can learn to wake ourselvesup from these mind dreams in which we're being
(30:00):
chased by a yeti or in terrible mediation orreliving terrible Yeah.
That is the same waking experience as having abad dream that you just need to be able to wake
yourself up from, and remind yourself, oh, wow,that's that's not happening right now.
I'm I'm here.
I'm on the beach.
I'm in Puerto Vallarta.
That was literally a waking dream, and that'sthe skill that we're trying to cultivate.
(30:22):
Oh, well, where were you five years ago?
I coulda coulda used your help on that,especially on that trip.
I woulda had to phone a friend for sure.
So we we've talked covered a lot, and this hasbeen amazing.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Are are there any this what I is what I wouldcall the carte blanche segment of our our chat
today.
Is there anything any maybe any questions Ididn't ask, I should have?
(30:44):
Anything we wanna share that we didn't touchtouch on today for listeners?
Well, maybe we might just talk a second abouthow you wake yourself up from a waking dream.
Mhmm.
Right?
Because interestingly, if you're having a baddream at night while you're sleeping, what
usually wakes you up?
Somebody's gonna elbowing you.
You end going, hey.
You're you're thrashing around.
Right?
(31:04):
Or luckily, there's a sound in your room oryour pet makes a sound and you, you know, wake
up and roll over.
You sort of wake or some people have learned towake themselves up out of bad dreams.
Right?
But we sort of rely on chance to be woken upfrom a bad dream at night.
Right?
Somebody else bursts out or something, or wejust wake up.
How can we wake ourselves up from these wakingbad dreams that keep us caught up in a mind
(31:29):
movie, a waking mind movie that's basically ahorror movie and robs us of our time on the
beach.
Right?
You want to be in Puerto Vallarta on the beachwhen you're in Puerto Vallarta on the beach.
You wanna be experiencing that.
You don't wanna be somewhere else dreamingabout this horror show, but whatever's coming
up.
Right?
So the question of how do we do that comes downto a really basic skill.
(31:55):
And the basic skill is anchoring ourselves inthe here and now.
Anchoring ourselves in the here and now.
Making sure that the contents of our mind arefull of the same place that the body is in the
present.
How do we make our minds full of PuertoVallarta when our bodies are in Puerto Vallarta
instead of our minds being full of some horrorshow of a hearing that might happen?
(32:17):
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So you might notice that I said, how do we makeour minds full of?
And if you run all those words together, youget the word mindful.
Mindful.
Yeah.
The question the the word mindful, which peoplehave various connotations about, at its most
basic level, just as asking the question, whatis your mind full of at any given moment?
(32:37):
Is it full of beach and sand and sunshinebecause that's where you are and what you're
doing?
Or is it full of garbage about the past and thefuture?
There's a wonderful comic.
It's a one frame comic.
It's one of my favorites.
And in it, there's a guy and a dog, and they'rein a park.
K?
And the park has this beautiful oak tree andbirds and flowers and all sorts of interesting
stuff.
And the dog is sitting you're looking at themfrom from the back, and the guy is sitting on a
(32:59):
bench, and the dog's sitting next to him.
Right?
And the guy and the dog both have a thoughtbubble.
And in the dog's thought bubble is the exactsame scene.
It's the guy and the dog and the bench and thepark.
The dog's mind is full of where they are andwhat they're doing.
The guy's thought bubble is full of everythingelse.
It's full of, like, his car, his job, finances,everything but what's going on.
(33:23):
So the dog's mind is full of what's happeningin that moment, and the guy's mind is full of
garbage that is not happening in that moment,that he has dragged into that moment simply by
thinking about it.
Oh, I and I have I have not seen this, but Ihave the visual in my brain, and I and I
hopefully, listeners do as well.
(33:44):
Mean, that's an incredible, amazing image forus to to take away.
So thank you.
Thank you.
You for
Great book.
For this great conversation today.
Michael Singer, great book recommendation.
Michael Singer.
Okay.
The first four chapters of Michael Singer'sbook, The Untethered Soul, which I know that
name is sort of vague and like, Well, I don'tknow, that's how's religious or spiritual.
It is not.
(34:04):
The first I haven't actually read the rest ofthe book because I didn't care.
The first section, which is the first fourchapters, are all about thinking and how
thinking is a narration technique that gives usa sense of control and how we get caught up in
the mind movies.
And I highly recommend those four chapters,three or four chapters, just the first section
of Michael Singer's book for a really down toearth, wonderful description of what we're
(34:30):
talking about and how to start popping out ofthe mind movie.
Me the name of the book again just so listenerscan jot that down.
Untethered Soul.
The Untethered Soul.
Okay.
Yeah.
I truly don't know what the rest of the book isabout.
I just wanna put that out there.
I'm
so obsessed with the first four chapters, andI've read them again and again and again and
again.
I have no idea what the rest of the book's
I've done that for a few books.
(34:51):
You can see it.
You maybe you can, maybe you can't.
There's a whole bookshelf over here, and I haveabout 15 books in there that I've read.
I don't know if I've read them cover to cover,but I've definitely read, you know, the most
profound chapters I could find for sure.
Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for for beingwith us today and for offering such grounded
practical advice for our listeners.
For those of you that are looking for therapyor strategies that you can help you maintain
(35:14):
your ang and manage your anxiety and improveyour decision making while you're going through
a divorce, follow Lindsay on Instagram orconnect with her on LinkedIn.
I'm gonna make sure you have all the show thelinks in the show notes.
So if you're driving, don't worry.
You know, you don't have to pull over and jotthis down.
We'll we'll get you access to all of her links.
And as always, if you're looking for supportwith the financial aspects of your divorce,
(35:34):
visit allegiantds.com for guidance.
Don't forget to subscribe to Broke Up NotBroken for more conversations that help you
rebuild emotionally and financially.
Until next time.
Welcome back to another episode of broke up notbroken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your finances and your life
throughout the entire divorce process.
In today's episode of Broke Up Not Broken,we're gonna explore the financial and emotional
sides of life after divorce.
(00:25):
Today's guest is Lindsay Karnik, a licensedclinical social worker and owner of Onward
Psychological Services.
Lindsay brings a practical and tacticalapproach to improving mental health with a
focus on anxiety and relationship issues thatare key stressors for anyone navigating
divorce.
With a background serving high stressprofessionals from attorneys to entrepreneurs,
(00:46):
Lindsay is here to share strategies for stayingmentally grounded while making tough financial
decisions during divorce.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, buckle up, and let's once again get you
personally and financially empowered.
Lindsay, so great to have you here with ustoday.
Great to be here, Jamie.
Thanks.
I'm glad I, thought about my beverage of choiceahead of time.
(01:07):
Yeah.
Well, I'm still on coffee.
It's still a little early over here, but, youknow, that that may change later depending how
this conversation only kidding.
Only kidding.
Thanks thanks so much for joining me today.
I I, I'm super appreciative of the work thatyou do, you know, on the mental health side of
things, especially for people that are goingthrough divorce.
I mean, my my divorce, you know, eight yearsago now was was incredibly stressful,
(01:30):
incredibly challenging in so many differentways.
And if it weren't for folks like you, I don'tthink I could have survived.
So thank you for doing the work that you do.
Oh, well, I'm glad you found somebody who'shelpful to you.
That's great.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So let's let's talk a little bit about the workthat you do do.
Right?
So we talked to kinda the lead up here to ourour conversation.
So you you work with couples primarily and
(01:52):
Couples and individuals, not primarily.
And individuals and we're in virtually.
You're you're in Colorado Springs, but you workall all over the country apparently.
Yes.
I'm based in Colorado, and I see folks in 10states.
I'm licensed in 10 states.
Amazing.
And how did you get into this this work?
What what was your driving force?
Oh, gosh.
That's kind of a long and circuitous questionand story.
(02:14):
Guess not
We have time.
I don't know if we do.
Maybe maybe we could start, but maybe we couldsummarize by saying I'm someone who's always
been really interested in the human experienceand the stories that we have about the human
experience and how we sort of create thesenarratives to explain our own experience to
ourselves and how that implicates and impactsour next set of experiences, right, where we're
(02:39):
firing from, which as I'm sure you're veryfamiliar with, can be a significant factor in
how people react, let alone respond to otherpeople after a separation or when they're going
through a separation.
Right?
We very easily create very complicatednarratives that are always based in a kernel of
truth at least about the other person and theirmotivations and what they're doing and what
(03:02):
they're trying to do.
And then we start reacting according to thosenarratives, which sometimes have deviated from
the facts, and we're still responding to thenarrative as opposed to the facts.
We've kind of gotten off track.
And so I'm very interested in my own life andeveryone else's about our capacity to create
these storylines and react to those storylinesand get further and further away from real
(03:25):
lived experience and and how damaging that canbe.
Yeah.
Give me some examples of that, like how itplays out because I think some of our listeners
are living that right now.
For sure.
So certainly, I I wanna emphasize that in inevery storyline we have about another person or
an experience, there's always some truth.
Right?
Nothing is a complete fabrication.
(03:45):
It always starts out from a place of truth ifwe can call anything truth, some sort of
objective reality about what happened.
Or as they famously said, you know, just thefacts, madam, just the facts.
Right?
So there are a set of facts.
And then what happens for many of us undermany, many conditions is that we start to
create our own storyline around those factsthat slowly shifts how we perceive the facts
(04:12):
and the new things coming in, the new inputinto the system.
So if you are in any kind of relationship, andwe could say this for non romantic
relationships.
Right?
Person a does something.
Person B has some sort of feelings and reactionabout that, right?
And as person B sort of metabolizes thatexperience, they start to fill in all sorts of
(04:33):
blanks about why person A did that, what thatmight mean person A is gonna do in the future,
(04:54):
all sorts of metabolic responses, and bymetabolic, I mean feelings.
And then that gravely influences how we go backand interact with that person.
So if you believe, and we can again say this inabout any set of interactions between any two
people, that somebody did something becausethey don't respect you, which is a storyline by
(05:15):
the way.
That is a story.
That person doesn't respect me.
Now it's a story that may or may not have moreor less objective truth, whatever that means,
but it is a story about the way things are,which is different from the reality of the way
things are.
Most people do not get out of bed in themorning thinking, how can I ruin this other
person's day?
Most people get out of bed in the morningthinking, how can I get my needs met?
(05:38):
And sometimes in the course of relentlesslypursuing getting their own needs met, they ruin
the other person's day.
But usually, it's not maliciously intentional.
But if you believe or you start to create astory that says, that person did that set of
things because they don't respect me, theydon't like me, they don't think I'm smart, they
think I could get away with it, they think I'mdumb, they think I'm manipulatable, they think
(06:02):
I'm a doormat, You're creating a hugestoryline, okay, about how that person operates
and the place they're operating from.
And that storyline is gonna change how you comeback to them.
So if I'm Jamie, I'm gonna use us because it'seasy.
If I believe that something you did was basedout of disrespect for me or a lack of care for
(06:26):
me, how I interact with you in the future isgoing to be very, very different than if I
believed you made a mistake, or you had amoment of bad judgment, or you any one of a
number of other things other than you don'trespect me.
Right?
That has deep implications for what I do interms of interacting with you.
(06:47):
And what happens, we have a word for this inthere's a school of therapy called ACT, and in
ACT, we call it fusion and defusion, wherepeople become fused with their thoughts, and
they don't recognize them as thoughts.
They see them as reality.
Mhmm.
So I can have a thought about reality.
For example, I could have the thought like, oh,it's a beautiful day outside.
(07:10):
That's a thought about reality.
It's not the same as reality itself.
If you're a person who suffers from sunburn andyou're easy you you have sun allergies, it is
not a beautiful day for you outside.
The reality is the sun is shining.
It's a beautiful day is a thought aboutreality.
Right?
It's a judgment about reality.
Mhmm.
But we don't see that.
We're too close to our thoughts.
(07:31):
We're fused with our thoughts.
So we just go, it's a beautiful day.
That's the truth.
And then we don't understand why other peopleall of a sudden are not just in alignment with
that, because to us, it's just the way thingsare.
We don't see it as a construct about the waythings are.
Thoughts about reality are not the same asreality itself, and we don't see that in the
(07:53):
moment when we're having those thoughts.
We go, He doesn't respect me.
That's a thought about reality.
Mhmm.
That is not the same as reality itself.
Reality itself could be that person wasn'tthinking about you.
That person was thinking about themselves.
That person didn't see it as a respect issue.
That person still doesn't see it as being thatdeep.
I mean, we we can say a thousand things aboutthis.
(08:14):
Right?
And that's why we have disagreements.
Right?
Because people are living their own subjectivethoughts about reality.
Nobody's really touching reality itself.
Yeah.
And so in the context of divorce, this must youmust deal with this, like, literally every day
in the conversations you have, particularlywith couples.
A 100%.
(08:34):
Or or just individuals, quite Just individuals.
I mean, can tell, and we all have this.
Right?
You and I could sit down right now and make alist of all the places in our lives currently
where we have thoughts about reality thatprobably don't quite line up with objective
Right?
I mean, it's it's true.
We're meaning making machines.
That's how humans operate.
(08:55):
This is not a a fault per se.
The only thing we're sort of trying to movetowards is to be aware that our thoughts about
reality are not the same as reality itself sowe can stop being so confused why why everybody
else isn't on our page about reality.
And, yes, so everybody's doing this all thetime, including definitely people who are in
(09:17):
the in the course of some sort of separation ordivorce or post divorce because they're still
trying to make sense out of what happened, andmaking sense out of what happened is
essentially going, x y z occurred.
Alright.
Let me tell you why that is.
Because he doesn't respect me.
She doesn't like me.
He never loved me.
(09:38):
Right?
Like, I I'm trying to make sense out of thesethings that otherwise I don't have an answer
for.
That's what we do.
How does to to I I I'm thinking through this inthe context of the the financial aspects of
divorce.
So this might this must be intertwined some waysomehow.
I mean, like, how how are you seeing becauseand I'm sure a lot of the listeners that that
(10:00):
are listening to this right now are thinkinglike, that's happening.
Yes.
And there's also this particular this the samething is happening on the financial side in
this particular way.
Like, how do you see that unfold on on from afinancial perspective in divorce, like, with
the couples and For sure.
Even the individual individuals you're workingwith?
Yes.
Well, money I mean, money is such aninteresting added element to what we're talking
(10:21):
about because everybody also has a money story.
Right?
Money and finances have deep meaning to peoplebefore they ever get involved with someone else
and have sort of, like, conflicting storylines,right, about what money 100%.
Right?
Especially especially to if there's we and wesee this all the time.
If there's there's usually the one financialdecision maker in the in in the household, Not
(10:44):
to be stereotypical, but it's usually the dude.
And then we have, you know, the wife that'salong for the ride or the or the or the other
spouse is along for the ride.
And, you know, they're like, oh, like, they'vegot it all handled.
And then then next thing you know, divorce hitsthem, and they're like, woah.
I didn't I don't have it handled at all.
Now I've gotta figure this all out and unpackall that too.
Yes.
(11:04):
And I think it, you know, it can go in amillion different directions how how this sort
of plays out for people.
One can be all of a sudden people start readinginto financial decisions as having a different
meaning than they do.
So people might start to interpret like, oh,you did you did that to hurt me.
Oh, you did that so that I wouldn't be able todo this.
(11:26):
Oh, you right?
They start assigning this intention and sort oftrajectory to people's behavior Mhmm.
That might be true.
But might be true is not the same as is true.
And the danger is when we start treating it asis true.
You know, you end up in you're in mediation,you something comes up about the finances,
(11:47):
right, and you're you know, one person goes,Oh, I see what you're doing, or I I see what
you did there, and it's like, Wait, what?
And the other person's going, what did I dothere?
Right?
And most times, that's not the case.
That storyline that this person has in thecontext of, you know, high emotions and high
stakes and difficult experiences, default tosort of a position of defensiveness and
(12:13):
offensiveness of going all of a sudden like,you tried to screw me.
You you were gonna yeah.
And this other person's going like, look.
Just because we're getting divorced doesn'tmean I turned into, like, the devil here.
Like, no.
I wouldn't It's not doctor Jericho and misterHyde.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Right.
But, of course, when your feelings are hurtand, you know, often in divorce or separation,
(12:35):
there are a lot of hurt feelings or a lot ofhard feelings.
Right?
It it becomes very sort of easy for people toretroactively they're now looking for evidence
to confirm that, yes, in fact, this marriagehas become a bad thing, this person's a bad
person, and I should be look.
There's another piece of evidence.
You you did this thing, and that's how did Inever see that?
Right?
And that fits into this bigger storyline aboutwhy they're splitting up.
(12:59):
And and part of the goal, I think, for any ofus, whether it's in a separation or some other
complete circumstance, is to not let ourfeelings sort of dictate how we are
categorizing the facts.
Right?
Mhmm.
So someone can do something.
Let's just use a somebody can make a mistake, afinancial mistake.
(13:20):
Okay?
Look, I don't know what a low level financialmistake would be, but let's just pick one.
You know, they they blew a thousand dollars onsomething dumb.
And the other and they hid it from the otherperson.
Right?
Now that's that's dumb.
It's a dumb mistake.
People make dumb mistakes all the time,especially with money.
And in the course of some conversation herethat hadn't been had before where now there are
(13:41):
hard feelings, the second person might look atthat financial mistake that a thousand dollars
ago, you were hiding things from me.
You were you were you were trying to get awaywith something.
Because that fits the new narrative of we'renot friends anymore, or we don't belong
together, or we're not a fit, or you do badthings, or you're selfish.
Right?
Whereas if they weren't under those conditions,they'd be like, well, that was dumb.
(14:02):
Could you tell me next time?
Right?
I mean, same fact, two very differentstorylines.
Two different two very different responses.
Yeah.
Presents.
Yeah.
And thusly, two different responses.
And we know that.
Right?
You know, you can ask any any small child on aplayground, you know, if you if you tell if
some small child accidentally gets elbowed inthe face by his buddy on the playground and you
(14:25):
tell him, you know, one friend the third friendsays, oh, he didn't mean it.
It was an accident.
You guys should still be friends.
Then the kid will be like, okay.
And if the other kid tries to hype him up andhe's like, he was totally trying to get you and
steal your dump truck, the kid's gonna be like,you know, it's on like Donkey Kong.
So we we know that the stories that we tellourselves, which is as significant as the
(14:47):
stories other people tell us, will absolutelypush us in a meaning making direction that has
significant consequences for do you go politelyask for your dump truck back because you
recognize that was an accident, or do you goover there and try and pummel your buddy in the
sandbox?
Right?
There's definitely action consequences to thosestories that we buy into.
One of the things that, in my particular case,happened is we went through couples therapy,
(15:13):
you know, very early on, and and it was it itkinda fell apart, especially when it came down
to the financial discussion, which wasbasically like, hey.
We've been talking about you going back to workfor, like, what feels like forever.
You don't wanna do this.
Like, you know, like, here we are.
Like, if this doesn't straighten up, we'regonna go in a different direction.
Right?
What about so to to to help couples that aregoing, like, starting this process and and
(15:37):
they're maybe this is the first time thatthey've worked with a therapist either
individually or as a couple.
What are some of the some of the things youwant them to be thinking about as they head
into that first conversation to help them, youknow, make communicate better around not only
finances, but are all the other aspects of oftheir lives, maybe in such a way so they can
try to avoid future conflict.
(15:59):
Right?
And try to to to to avoid going to courts andhaving attorneys involved and so on and so
forth.
Because we work with so many clients that aregoing through this experience, which is a
tragic experience all the way around no matterhow you slice it, but the ones that are working
together to resolve their differences throughmediation, which is what we take people through
(16:21):
mediation, and it's just an overall betterexperience.
So, like, how do we get more people to leveragetherapy and share their emotions and and
communicate better?
Like like, how do we get more people going downthat path versus the other path, which is where
we help people as an advocate, and we'rebasically on team Lindsay.
(16:42):
And, you know, like you said, like, Donkey Kongand the gloves are coming off here.
Like, that's that's how we operate as well.
But if we can try to avoid those scenarios andget people going you know, working together,
communicating well, and going down themediation path versus the other path, that's
that would be the ideal scenario.
Thoughts on that?
Yes.
In the case where everybody's safe and there'snot a safety issue, that that people are
(17:06):
generally emotionally and physically safe.
I think one of the most encouraging things wecan do is is help people understand that
ultimately having a calm experience, having asmuch tranquility as possible is good for
everyone.
And that if you try and punish this otherperson, you're also gonna punish yourself.
(17:26):
Mhmm.
There is no way you don't get punished in thatin the process of trying to punish someone
else.
It's inevitable.
It may just be emotionally punishing, butemotionally punishing is bad.
And you both are gonna have to go on and liveyour lives.
Right?
And an important question becomes is like, hey.
After this is all over, how are you?
(17:48):
And how can we set you up for success as anindividual going forward even if it's without
this person?
Right?
You're gonna have a life after this separation,and we want you to have a happy, healthy life.
And part of that happy, healthy life is owningyour own stuff and communicating like an adult.
And to the degree that you can practice thatskill throughout the course of this very, very
(18:11):
difficult process is gonna be helpful to you inthe long run.
Mhmm.
So I think it's really helpful for people, ifif possible, to see an individual therapist as
well as maybe, like, a couples therapist
That's a good point.
Going through this.
Because there are some things that, you know,people would benefit from metabolizing, as it
(18:33):
were, processing, they call it, but I call itmetabolizing, that aren't constructive to
metabolize in front of the other person.
Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able toget it off your chest, but getting it off your
chest in front of that other person is notgoing to go somewhere constructive.
It is going to have a net loss effect on theproductivity of this process.
So you need a different outlet away from thatperson to talk about those things so that you
(18:57):
can come back to the group interaction and showup and be constructive.
And so I would really encourage people to thinkof getting involved with professionals, whether
that's a therapist or a couples therapist or,you know, what you're doing, you know, in
mediation and any of these sort of services asa way to really set yourself up individually
(19:17):
for success going forward.
And maybe sometimes people have a little bit oflike, I'm not I'm mad at this person, and I I
don't I'm not gonna give them the satisfactionor benefit of me showing up tranquil.
No.
That's for you.
It's better for you.
When your blood pressure's lower, that's betterfor you.
It's also more pleasant for the other person,but never mind that.
It's better for you.
But I think that's really important.
(19:39):
You mentioned working with professionals, youknow, and I and I'm a big fan of that.
I talk about that, you know, in any opportunityI get.
Like, you need to create team you when you'regoing into this divorce.
Right?
Like, your financial professionals, your legalprofessional, your psychological professional,
you name it, surround yourself by all thoseamazing people.
(19:59):
But I want you know, thinking the the thinkingabout professionals, I mean, one of the you
work with some pretty high stress individuals,professionals of businesses and and and such.
Right?
So like, are there any unique, I guess, youknow, financial or emotional challenges that
they face?
Like, how do they stay in control during theirdivorce?
Because there's a lot at stake.
Sure.
Sometimes folks in coming from thosebackgrounds have the hardest time because
(20:24):
they're so used to being in control of so much,and so much of this process feels out of
control.
And I would say that's the biggest challengethose folks face is accepting that, a, there's
not a quick solution.
This is not going to get fixed.
It's not gonna get solved overnight.
It's going to be, in most cases, a prettyincremental process, right, that rarely is is
(20:48):
expeditious.
Usually, it takes a long time.
Mhmm.
And and helping people make peace with that andhelping people learn to be in their lives and
live their lives and not feel like they're onhiatus until this thing is in the rear of your
mirror.
Cause we don't know how long that's gonna be.
(21:08):
Right?
And sometimes, as you know, it can be reallydrawn out.
So I think helping people think about thisprocess as, yes, something that's happening,
and of course it's huge, and of course atdifferent moments it's gonna blot out the sun
more than others to you, right?
And also, how do you keep engaging in your lifein a meaningful building way and not put your
(21:32):
life on hold until this thing is resolved?
Because we don't always know when that's gonnahappen.
It's so incredibly tough because, I mean, asthe owner of two businesses myself and I I
didn't own the businesses while I was goingthrough my divorce, but some things had came
up, you know, years later.
We had to go back to court for different thingsand what have you.
And even that was just challenging.
(21:53):
I can't even imagine having to go through,like, the entirety of my divorce being the
owner of, you know, now just a small companyalone was a big deal to me and very stressful
and had an impact not only on my on my physicalhealth, but also, you know, certainly my my
mental health and and and everything else.
Like, these CEOs and these these, you know,heavy hitters of these big corporations, like,
(22:19):
they don't just get to take a day off.
And, like so, like, what are what are some ofthe practical or I I I tools that we use I use
the the word tactical in the lead up to thisbecause I think with a lot of the work you do
is about giving tactical tools to these tothese to your clients.
So are there are there anything specific youcan share there?
Yes.
(22:39):
That takes us a little bit back to the idea ofstories and and the power of a story and living
inside a story.
So let me just point something out that'shappening for both of us right now.
You are in what looks to be a climatecontrolled environment.
Yeah?
Mhmm.
As am I.
You have this nice background.
The lighting looks good.
I mean, are you comfortable right now?
I'm doing pretty good.
Yeah.
And I spend a lot of time at HomeGoods as youcan as you can tell.
(23:02):
I spend a lot of time on the weekends.
Lindsay, that's something only kidding.
It's it's positively idyllic.
Yeah.
And so you're very comfortable right now, andI'm very comfortable in my environment.
Right?
You and I could both make ourselves miserableright now simply by thinking about something
that upsets us.
Mhmm.
Right?
No.
(23:22):
Absolutely.
Good this is.
I just did it.
There you go.
Did you see my frown when I thought about I'mnot gonna name them.
Not gonna say anything, but I thought aboutthis one thing or this one person and then my
The
pink elephant.
Yes.
So what I encourage people to notice, and Ithink this is sound it it is simple, but
(23:43):
certainly not easy and certainly notsimplistic, is that often we are fine.
Things are fine.
You're in your climate controlled environment.
I'm in my climate controlled environment.
It's good.
And if it's not good, it's because we've gottencaught up in a story about what's not happening
right now.
And often people who are going through thesemajor life events which are legitimately
(24:05):
stressful and awful and hard and brutal andgrief inducing and all of those things spend a
lot of time suffering when the thing isn'thappening because it's happening up here.
Right?
So there are folks, for example, who are goingthrough very, very difficult separations,
right, with all the components that we couldname that cause suffering and grief in in
(24:29):
separations and the endings of ofrelationships.
And there are moments while all that's going onthat are perfectly lovely.
Except those people aren't experiencing thosemoments because even though they are, fill in
the blank, at the beach with friends, withdoing lovely things, they're not present in
(24:51):
that space where everything's lovely because uphere, they are imagining some terrible
conversation they had with this person who hadthe audacity to say x y z q r p or how the next
hearing might go at which they might have theaudacity to say ABC, FYG.
Like, they are robbing themselves of the goodmoments where everything's perfectly fine by
(25:14):
living the bad moments up here.
It's a remarkable thing.
You know, your body is always in the present,your mind can time travel.
Right?
100%.
And so the thing, the skill that I think ismost important for everybody to cultivate quite
frankly, not just folks who are going throughwhat we're talking about, but this is a great
example, is to be able to drop yourself intothe present and go, you know what?
(25:36):
That's not happening right now.
I am not in a terrible hearing mediation awfulwhatever at this moment.
I'm that's not I'm on the beach.
I'm with my kids on the back porch.
I'm with my siblings, whatever the thing is.
I'm I'm playing around the golf.
I'm here, and this is good.
(25:57):
Right?
And to be able to notice that when we timetravel up here into what's already happened
reliving, right, on loop, the horror show ofthe mediation last time or fantasizing on loop
about the horror that mediation will be nexttime.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We are putting ourselves through thisabsolutely unnecessary suffering that's not
(26:20):
happening.
It's not happening in your office.
It's not
happening at so difficult, though.
Like, I've I've been there.
I'm like, everything you're describing, Iremember being I was in Puerto Vallarta with my
with my now wife.
I've essentially married and, you know,extended family and some friends and the whole
thing.
And we were dealing I I don't know.
I this was, I don't know, four years ago,whatever it was.
(26:41):
And we were dealing with some situation goingback to court and everything else.
And I'm like, I I just I just could not enjoymyself the whole time.
Like, it took I I physically this I I rememberhaving this physical sensation where it took me
four days of a seven day vacation to finallyfeel like I can relax.
Just in time to start thinking about gettingback on the airplane to go back to the, you
(27:04):
know, I'll just say it, the shit storm that Iwas face I was facing when I got home.
You know, it it's it's it's so difficult,though.
It is difficult.
And part of what makes it difficult, do youremember we were talking a few minutes ago
about not noticing that you're treating yourthoughts about reality as reality itself?
Yeah.
When we can start to do that, when we can go,oh, I'm not in a court hearing.
(27:28):
I'm thinking about a court hearing.
We start to distance ourselves.
It's the same thing that happens when you're Idon't know if you watch horror movies or action
movies or what.
But do you watch horror movies or actionmovies?
I'm not a big horror guy, but I'm gonna I Icould do action movies for sure.
You're action movies?
Okay.
So you're in a movie theater.
K?
And you're watching the latest MissionImpossible, and there's poor old Tom Cruise
(27:49):
hanging from a helicopter brother.
Right?
And his fingers are like, like slowly comingopen.
Right?
And you're like, you know, your heart rate'sgoing up.
That's why these movies are fun because theyelicit a physiological response called a
thrill.
I'm not gonna them thrillers in this genre.
Right?
Or horrors in that genre.
And so there's Tom Cruise slowly losing hisgrip on this helicopter rudder, and you're
like, oh, no.
(28:11):
This is the end for Tom.
Oh, no.
And your heart's pounding away, and you'regetting a little sweaty.
And then all of a sudden, your kid, like,throws a piece of popcorn at the side of your
face, and you're like, and all a sudden, you'rebrought back to reality.
Oh, this is a movie.
Nobody ever watched somebody fall out of ahelicopter and ate popcorn at the same time.
(28:31):
That's not a thing.
Or nobody ever watched, like, vampires takeover a town while they were eating Junior Mints
and slurping Diet Coke.
That's not a thing.
Right?
And so just like watching a horror movie thatyour physiology gets caught up in because your
neurology doesn't know the difference between amovie and a real thing.
(28:53):
It elicits the same response in your neurology.
That's why thrillers and horror movie work, isyour body doesn't care if you're eating
popcorn.
It's like that person's getting slashed.
Right?
And you have this response.
If we can start to cultivate the skill of sortof noticing that we're caught up in the mind
movie.
Okay?
(29:13):
It's the same thing that happens when you'recaught up in a dream.
You're having a bad dream.
Right?
You're falling through space or you're beingchased and you're it's terrible and your
heart's pounding, and all of sudden you wake upand you go, oh, that's not happening right now.
I'm I'm in my bedroom.
There's my stuffed animal.
You know, there's my dog.
There's my spouse.
(29:34):
Whatever.
Right?
And all of a sudden, you've you've woken upfrom the dream, and you you're very aware
suddenly that one thing is real and one thingis not real.
And you go, oh god.
That felt so real.
Oh, that was that was so awful.
Right?
I really felt like I was being chased by a Yetior whatever you were being chased by in your
dream.
And similarly, we can learn to wake ourselvesup from these mind dreams in which we're being
(30:00):
chased by a yeti or in terrible mediation orreliving terrible Yeah.
That is the same waking experience as having abad dream that you just need to be able to wake
yourself up from, and remind yourself, oh, wow,that's that's not happening right now.
I'm I'm here.
I'm on the beach.
I'm in Puerto Vallarta.
That was literally a waking dream, and that'sthe skill that we're trying to cultivate.
(30:22):
Oh, well, where were you five years ago?
I coulda coulda used your help on that,especially on that trip.
I woulda had to phone a friend for sure.
So we we've talked covered a lot, and this hasbeen amazing.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Are are there any this what I is what I wouldcall the carte blanche segment of our our chat
today.
Is there anything any maybe any questions Ididn't ask, I should have?
(30:44):
Anything we wanna share that we didn't touchtouch on today for listeners?
Well, maybe we might just talk a second abouthow you wake yourself up from a waking dream.
Mhmm.
Right?
Because interestingly, if you're having a baddream at night while you're sleeping, what
usually wakes you up?
Somebody's gonna elbowing you.
You end going, hey.
You're you're thrashing around.
Right?
(31:04):
Or luckily, there's a sound in your room oryour pet makes a sound and you, you know, wake
up and roll over.
You sort of wake or some people have learned towake themselves up out of bad dreams.
Right?
But we sort of rely on chance to be woken upfrom a bad dream at night.
Right?
Somebody else bursts out or something, or wejust wake up.
How can we wake ourselves up from these wakingbad dreams that keep us caught up in a mind
(31:29):
movie, a waking mind movie that's basically ahorror movie and robs us of our time on the
beach.
Right?
You want to be in Puerto Vallarta on the beachwhen you're in Puerto Vallarta on the beach.
You wanna be experiencing that.
You don't wanna be somewhere else dreamingabout this horror show, but whatever's coming
up.
Right?
So the question of how do we do that comes downto a really basic skill.
(31:55):
And the basic skill is anchoring ourselves inthe here and now.
Anchoring ourselves in the here and now.
Making sure that the contents of our mind arefull of the same place that the body is in the
present.
How do we make our minds full of PuertoVallarta when our bodies are in Puerto Vallarta
instead of our minds being full of some horrorshow of a hearing that might happen?
(32:17):
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So you might notice that I said, how do we makeour minds full of?
And if you run all those words together, youget the word mindful.
Mindful.
Yeah.
The question the the word mindful, which peoplehave various connotations about, at its most
basic level, just as asking the question, whatis your mind full of at any given moment?
(32:37):
Is it full of beach and sand and sunshinebecause that's where you are and what you're
doing?
Or is it full of garbage about the past and thefuture?
There's a wonderful comic.
It's a one frame comic.
It's one of my favorites.
And in it, there's a guy and a dog, and they'rein a park.
K?
And the park has this beautiful oak tree andbirds and flowers and all sorts of interesting
stuff.
And the dog is sitting you're looking at themfrom from the back, and the guy is sitting on a
(32:59):
bench, and the dog's sitting next to him.
Right?
And the guy and the dog both have a thoughtbubble.
And in the dog's thought bubble is the exactsame scene.
It's the guy and the dog and the bench and thepark.
The dog's mind is full of where they are andwhat they're doing.
The guy's thought bubble is full of everythingelse.
It's full of, like, his car, his job, finances,everything but what's going on.
(33:23):
So the dog's mind is full of what's happeningin that moment, and the guy's mind is full of
garbage that is not happening in that moment,that he has dragged into that moment simply by
thinking about it.
Oh, I and I have I have not seen this, but Ihave the visual in my brain, and I and I
hopefully, listeners do as well.
(33:44):
Mean, that's an incredible, amazing image forus to to take away.
So thank you.
Thank you.
You for
Great book.
For this great conversation today.
Michael Singer, great book recommendation.
Michael Singer.
Okay.
The first four chapters of Michael Singer'sbook, The Untethered Soul, which I know that
name is sort of vague and like, Well, I don'tknow, that's how's religious or spiritual.
It is not.
(34:04):
The first I haven't actually read the rest ofthe book because I didn't care.
The first section, which is the first fourchapters, are all about thinking and how
thinking is a narration technique that gives usa sense of control and how we get caught up in
the mind movies.
And I highly recommend those four chapters,three or four chapters, just the first section
of Michael Singer's book for a really down toearth, wonderful description of what we're
(34:30):
talking about and how to start popping out ofthe mind movie.
Me the name of the book again just so listenerscan jot that down.
Untethered Soul.
The Untethered Soul.
Okay.
Yeah.
I truly don't know what the rest of the book isabout.
I just wanna put that out there.
I'm
so obsessed with the first four chapters, andI've read them again and again and again and
again.
I have no idea what the rest of the book's
I've done that for a few books.
(34:51):
You can see it.
You maybe you can, maybe you can't.
There's a whole bookshelf over here, and I haveabout 15 books in there that I've read.
I don't know if I've read them cover to cover,but I've definitely read, you know, the most
profound chapters I could find for sure.
Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for for beingwith us today and for offering such grounded
practical advice for our listeners.
For those of you that are looking for therapyor strategies that you can help you maintain
(35:14):
your ang and manage your anxiety and improveyour decision making while you're going through
a divorce, follow Lindsay on Instagram orconnect with her on LinkedIn.
I'm gonna make sure you have all the show thelinks in the show notes.
So if you're driving, don't worry.
You know, you don't have to pull over and jotthis down.
We'll we'll get you access to all of her links.
And as always, if you're looking for supportwith the financial aspects of your divorce,
(35:34):
visit allegiantds.com for guidance.
Don't forget to subscribe to Broke Up NotBroken for more conversations that help you
rebuild emotionally and financially.
Until next time.
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