Jamie M. Lima and Darren Elliott delve into the complexities of dealing with narcissism in divorce finances, discussing the impact of financial manipulation and the role of mediation. They analyze psychological dynamics and introduce the BIF Method for managing communication and emotional regulation during the divorce process. The episode highlights the importance of therapy and conflict resolution for high-conflict couples, offering insights on post-divorce healing and boundary setting. Family dynamics, emotional health, and the effects of divorce on children and extended family are explored, alongside the influence of childhood experiences and generational trauma.
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(00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Broke Up NotBroken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima, and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire divorce process.
Today, I'm joined by Darren Elliott.
Darren brings both clinical expertise and thelived experience to this conversation, having
(00:25):
survived narcissistic abuse in navigating alife with ADHD.
He specializes in helping individuals andcouples work through disconnection, especially
in high conflict relationships.
Today, we're gonna dive into the psychologicaldynamics of divorce, especially when narcissism
is in play, and how these dynamics can impactfinancial clarity, boundaries, and long term
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planning.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, buckle up, and let's once again get you
personally and financially empowered.
Darren, so great to have you with us today,man.
Thank you so much, Jamie.
I'm excited to be here with you.
Yeah.
Well, we've got a lot to talk about becauselike I said in our our pregame here for this
conversation, we work with a lot of people whoare trying to navigate the financial aspects of
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divorce and are having a very hard time doingit, not only psychologically, but financially
because of narcissism that's involved.
And I I wanna I wanna give you an opportunityto introduce yourself and share a little bit
about the work that you do, but I I wanna alsofocus on that word narcissism because we hear
it a lot in the work that we do.
And I'm not a psychiatrist.
(01:29):
I'm not a therapist.
Like, you know, so I have a little bit ofexperience, you know, on the on the
psychological aspect of things, but I'm not apro like you.
And a lot of people use that word incorrectly,so I wanna make sure we talk a little bit about
that, make sure that we're we're not justthrowing this word out just randomly.
We actually are using it in the right context.
So why don't you share a little bit about thework that you do, we can go from there.
(01:51):
Great.
Thanks, Jamie.
Yeah.
The word narcissist is thrown around it's justall it's thrown around like an insult today.
It so it's used very widely, and it's alsoquite misunderstood.
It is usually used as an insult, but there'sthere's certain traits that people assume to be
narcissism that may or may not be narcissism.
And people behave in different ways whenthey're in different emotional states.
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But I wanna mention, if you have a narcissisticpartner, you do need it is highly advisable to
seek a solution like yours to have a thirdparty in charge of analyzing the financials,
because that is the kind of thing you do needwhen you're divorcing someone who's
narcissistic.
Because they they have a narrative, and theirnarrative is the true narrative.
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And they they need to be right and you to bewrong.
And that's one of the things that you can usurpis instead of me being right and you being
wrong, we have Jamie come in, and he's doingthe finances, and we both just trust Amy.
So it's not something we have to fight about.
It's not something we have to disagree on.
We're bring bringing in a third party to dealwith our finances and to sort it out.
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That that makes makes it so much easier, butit's so important.
It well, because the math math's right.
I mean, two plus two is four, and who's gonnaargue about that.
Right?
Right.
So you're taking away a lot of the conflict,because there's a lot of conflict around
finances that you actually very well know.
And there's and there's different opinionsabout it.
And the thing with someone who's narcissistic,if they truly are, they're right and you're
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wrong when it comes to their partner.
So they need to be right and they need theirpartner to be wrong.
But they might be fine with you being right,Jamie.
So if you put you in the one who's giving themthe financial numbers and stuff, it makes it
easier for both of them, in fact, becausethere's a narrative there.
I I've I've seen that come to play come comeinto play a few times.
I mean, just because, you know, you're youknow, we we we do two things.
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One, we do we do mediation where we help, youknow, people come to, you know, an agreement
and try to do so amicably.
And then we also work as an advocate.
So we basically be on team Darren.
Right?
And and when we're on team Darren, it's easy Icould see where it'd be easier for the other
party to think that, you know, we're just youknow, we're biased or what have you.
But with with the reporting that we do and andthe analysis that we run and just being able to
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show them the facts, like, hey.
Here's here's here's the math behind what we'reproposing, and this is why.
It's it's it's it's often hard to argue that.
And I think it it like you said, you know, ithelps to, you know, stifle some of that angst,
anger, you know, that's that's bubblingunderneath the surface.
Well, it'll help them deal with their polarizedresponses as well.
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Because someone who's dealing with narcissismtends to have a yes, right, good, bad response,
and also a win, lose.
And that's where it goes really wrong in adivorce, is I need to win and I need them to
lose.
So in this case, where it's right and wrong,you bring in the right.
So it's sort of giving them a polarized, well,this is correct, and they can go with correct.
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So you're not going to the polarized responseof me versus you.
I win and you lose.
I'm good and you're bad.
So that's super helpful.
To let them feel like they're winning is partof the work as well, to recognize I'm helping
you both here, because that's really important.
They need to feel like they're winning.
And if they don't feel like they're winning,they're going to attack.
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So I would imagine part of your work is like,this is how we come up with a really fair
thing, and we're not gonna make a mistake, andyou're not gonna be cheated.
Because they also are feeling like they'rebeing cheated.
You're trying to cheat me, so they're gonna tryto cheat you first.
So you if if you're giving them clarificationthat no one's gonna be cheated here because I'm
taking care of the numbers in a systemic way,and numbers are numbers, then that that feeling
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of everyone's trying to cheat me, that can bedealt with.
So you're you're actually giving themnarcissistic management tactics just by being
there with your service.
That's amazing.
Thank you for that.
You should be in my next commercial.
Right.
It takes a lot of management.
It takes a lot of you know, because fairness isone of the things that they really get upset
about, and they really do have the feeling likeeveryone's taking advantage of me when they get
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into that triggered position.
Managing that is very, very important, and theywill not be able to manage it from their
partner because their partner's considered onthe other team.
Yeah.
But you can be on their team, as you rightlyacknowledge.
That's what happens in therapy too.
I I I'm I'm on both of their team, and they'rethey're able to feel that I'm on both of their
team.
That's how the work is possible.
It's developing trust with someone who doesn'ttrust easily.
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So let's let's talk about that a little bit.
There's I I, on my side, see a lot of, like,financial abuse, financial manipulation, so on
and so forth.
And and it's really hard to get any realfinancial clarity on what is fair and what is
what is just and what, you know, what isequitable in a divorce when you're and when
there's so much of that going on.
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And I'm I presume you see that in the work thatyou do as well in that, you know, that
interaction between the the spouses and and thework that you do.
So for those that are out there that arevictims of this and are starting to think
through, like, alright.
I need to gather all my financial information.
I need to make sure I'm well, I'm gonna getwhat's what's right, but they are locked out of
that information.
There's they just don't have access to it.
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You know, there's a lot of manipulation goingon, so on and so forth.
How do you I I guess the word is, like, whatare what are some common tactics you can share
to help people get beyond that and maybe cometo the table with a much more you know, being
much more forthright?
So I I do recommend they service themselveswith resources like yours, but also a divorce
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coach, actually, someone else to take the leadapart from the two of them and the lawyer.
The divorce coach will charge less than thelawyer, and will have more expertise with how
to deal with them, for one.
When it comes to narcissism, you're essentiallydealing with angry, immature, emotional
processes.
So if you think angry man child in the case ofa husband or angry woman child in the case of a
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woman, I say man child because it's much morecommon.
The prevalence of narcissism in men is much,much higher.
And when I work with couples, it's much morecommon that the husband is living in
grandiosity and separation, and the wife isliving in emotional aloneness.
But the self image of the person matters a lot,and they care what you think about them, until
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they don't.
But if you're able to keep them in a placewhere they care what you think about them,
Jamie so they they care that you see them as anhonest and responsible person, so they're going
to try to act honest and responsible they theydo tend to try to impress others more than
their own partner, and that's part of what goeswrong over the years.
You know, they'll go to a restaurant, and thethe part he wants to impress the waiter more
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than the wife.
He wants to impress the the waitress, and he'sflirting with the waitress and making his wife
feel small.
Like, it's more important to them whatstrangers think even than the person who's with
them, because the person who's with them doessee the other side of them at home.
Generally speaking, generally, have an outsideface and an inside face.
They do try to hide that inside face with theirpartner.
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But essentially, what we're dealing with innarcissism is a split.
We have a person who is living in this reality,this version of themselves that they believe to
be true, basically living in their self imageand denying everything that doesn't match their
self image as not being true.
So if they see themselves as a good, generousChristian father, they're gonna sort of accept
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all the behavior that agrees with what they seethemselves as a good Christian father.
And if they do something that doesn't matchthat behavior, they're almost able to not
believe it, because they're living in thisreality that they've created, and they avoid
the other reality.
And in this reality, there's nothing to blamehere.
There's nothing wrong with me.
Yeah.
And that's part of the game that often needs tobe played at the end of a relationship if
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you're trying to minimize the fighting to tolet them be right even if they're not.
You know?
It's like, yes.
I'm so sorry.
I wasn't good enough for you, you know, for thepartner.
Let them be right instead of fight, fight,fight, fight, fight.
I'm only leaving you because you were mean tome every single day, blah blah blah.
You know, that's not gonna help anything.
You just wanna get away from this person andstop the fighting.
(10:05):
Yes.
You you are leaving them now.
They don't give closure, though, Jamie.
That's part of what happens.
They they don't accept accountability.
They don't accept responsibility.
Part of what happens is, you know, someone willbe with, you know, their partner for ten years
and just be tired of being like the parent.
It's like, you know, it's been ten years, andthey still put their their dishes on top of the
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counter and wait for me to put them in themachine instead of just putting them in the
machine.
Ten years, and, like, I didn't grow up with adishwasher.
It's like, you didn't learn how to use it inten years?
Who cares if you didn't grow up with adishwasher?
Like, put a YouTube video on and figure out howto use the dishwasher.
Exactly.
But all these little it's all these littlethings usually that build up.
And at the end, they're just fighting about allthe stupid little nothings.
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So to minimize the contact, we actuallyminimize engagement.
And we use what's called the BIF method.
And that's because when they're at the point ofdivorce, they're not living together,
hopefully, at this point.
They're not having the daily interactions.
They're leaving for good reasons.
Keeping their interactions brief, informative,friendly, and firm.
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Just short.
Just short.
Because if they really are a narcissist, thenthey they enjoy causing reactions in others.
Makes them feel special.
Makes them feel important.
Causing people to panic.
It actually gives them an emotional some kindof emotional thing because they're looking for
validation all the time.
One of the traits of narcissism is theaddiction to validation.
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I need to be feeling good, and you need to bemaking me feel good.
So if you're able to make your client feelgood, they'll be more compliant.
If you're making them feel good aboutthemselves, they are going to be more
cooperative.
They tend to behave the way we are seeing themas well because they learn to mirror others a
lot.
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So if you treat someone like they're a supernice, friendly guy, you're more likely to get a
super nice, friendly guy in return because theyreally are used to mirroring the person in
front of them if we're actually dealing withnarcissism rather than just being authentic.
If you see them as an asshole, you willprobably get an asshole because they don't care
to show you the face facade then.
Like, oh, right.
Well, you see me as an asshole.
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Oh, show you, asshole.
Like, that it's so how we how we treat themreally, really, really makes a big difference
in the case of narcissism.
It it's they're extremely sensitive to feedbackthat's perceived as criticism.
So things need sugar coating.
They really do.
And, you know, I don't teach couples you don'thave to manage your partner.
But if you're leaving your partner and youwanna minimize the damage, you do have to
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manage that partner while you're minimizing thedamage.
100%, man.
So there's there's a lot to unpack here.
And the BIF method is, you know, is one that Isubscribed to myself.
And, having having actually talked had a chanceto to see Bill Eddie speak, who is the one that
like, the founding father of that method, BillEddie, he they get the I think it's one of the
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most amazing ways to do things.
And one of my next questions for you was gonnabe around boundaries because as you're saying
this, it's like boundaries like, I'm all I'mhearing is, like, we've gotta set, like, some
some financial, emotional boundaries in thisprocess.
And in in my own divorce, that was one of thethings that I struggled my with myself early
on, where it was like I I was like, I just wantthis thing over with.
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You know, like, how do we get the you know,like, do we make this, like, kumbaya and
everybody get along and just move on?
And and the response back that I got back wasI'm gonna make this as painful and as expensive
as possible, so so get ready.
That that was what I got back.
So Oh.
Before I had a chance to to learn more about,like, you know, the Bill Eddie approach and the
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Biff approach and and, like, you know, workingwith people like you.
And and I'll I'll I'll just share this withyou.
One of the things that I'm a I'm a big advocatefor is creating that team you, which is
bringing people like you into the mix early onto get the emotional support, to work with
financial planners like us to get the financialsupport, having a good attorney if you need
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one.
Not everybody needs to have an attorney on theteam because nine times out of 10, you're just
gonna flush a bunch of money down the toilet.
That being said, most of us could not getthrough this experience without having an
attorney to fight those those legal battles.
So you've gotta have, you know, you've gottahave your friends and family.
You've gotta have all this support around youcreating team you with in order to be able to
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get yourself through it.
Big mistake that I made was not doing that.
Oh.
Bigger a bigger mistake that I made was notabiding by the BIF method, you know, being
brief, being being what was what's what's I?
I forget.
Informative.
Just Informative.
This is the information friendly way, firm way.
Inform.
Affirm is the boundaries.
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100%.
So so one of the things that I tell people now,which is a lesson that I learned, is you should
never respond to a text or an email in themoment of that anger angst because that's what
these narcissists do.
Right?
They like
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's this diatribe.
Like, you're an asshole.
You're this thing.
You're gonna make us homeless.
You're gonna do all these things.
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And it's like like it's like on and on and on.
And I would sit there, dude, and I'd be like,just wanna, like, fire off the next email.
And what I what I would do is I would sit thereand I would draft that email and, like, get it
off my chest, all the things that I wanted tosay, and then delete it all.
And Yeah.
Delete it all and reply back with no more thanthree sentences.
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And it was the best thing that I ever did.
So let's talk a little bit about boundariesand, like, how, like, someone can start to
rebuild their confidence and, like, hold theirground and make firm financial decisions even
when they're emotionally drained because that'swhere a lot of this comes in.
Right?
Yes.
And, you know, there's a lot of controversyright now about AI, but I can tell you that I
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am using AI to very good effect with clients.
Hell, yeah.
This is one of the places I recommend using AIbecause it does have it has access to so much
information.
You you can ask AI to take my response, and youcan give it instructions.
You can say, you know, here's a project.
I want you to respond in a firm, concise,friendly, clear way that will not offend a
(16:16):
narcissist.
You could tell that to your AI instructions.
And then you can put in your actual responsethat's saying how much you hate them, they're
such a stupid heart, and I can't put and youput that into AI and let it rewrite you
something that's not gonna offend thenarcissist.
Honestly, it can do that.
It can do that.
It can often
do words.
This is exactly ties into the, like, theemotional regulation, and you also you talk a
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lot about emotional disconnection.
This is your way to be able to do that.
You know?
When you're upset, your brain is turned off.
People need to recognize that.
They when they're getting when they're feelinglike this because they just got a stupid
accusatory email from their partner that's justridiculous, they're feeling like this, their
whole frontal cortex turns off if they're infight and flight mode.
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So you're not thinking with your full brain.
You are going to say and do things that youreally don't even mean when your wise adult is
awake, because your wise adult lives in themost advanced part of our brain, which is up
here.
And when you're in that triggered state, yeah,do not reply, unless you're using a really good
AI filter to fix your reply before you send itbecause you have to before in two hours.
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But no, yeah, calm down.
Sleep on it.
Think about it.
Let yourself vent your true reply, and thensay, would this help me or hurt me?
Oh, okay.
So if the truth is gonna hurt me, then thatthat's not what I wanna do.
That's not the outcome.
We're we're you're not gonna get closure.
That's why it goes so very, very wrong isbecause you do not get closure with a
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narcissist.
They do not accept what their side was.
They have a reality that will not matchreality.
They they will be and so that doesn't give youclosure, it gives you that feeling of wanting
to get closure over and over and over.
You're not going to get it from them.
You're gonna need to get it from a therapist ora coach or your best friend.
You're not gonna get closure if someone's trulynarcissistic.
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They they don't allow it.
Unless you have a coach like, I work withnarcissism.
I don't consider it a fixed personalitydisorder.
But when someone is in therapy for narcissism,they become a recovering narcissist, just like
an an alcoholic becomes a recovering alcoholic.
And if they stop doing the personal work, theydo fall back into their narcissistic ways.
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They can they can break out of them with withdaily personal work and, you know, and guidance
to mature emotionally because, you know, anarcissist is emotionally immature.
He's acting on processes of that are me versusyou.
They're lacking object constancy.
And what I mean by that is when they're mad attheir partner, they forget that they love their
partner.
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And for most of us, that keeps us in what wecall compassion.
I'm mad at this person, but I love them, andthey love me.
Therefore, I'm not gonna attack them.
That's object constancy.
That doesn't exist if they're really anarcissist.
When they're mad, all they are aware of isanger, and they they will launch into a mean
attack, and they think you deserve it.
Or they've learned not to launch into meanattack, and they go into quiet, cold distance
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where they're vengeful and contemptful, and youfeel the cold distance, but they're pretending,
oh, no.
Everything's fine.
I'm fine over here.
But meanwhile, you know, they're plotting yourdeath.
You know?
Like, you can feel the cold.
So they'll either they'll either be overtlyabusive, or they'll be passive aggressively
abusive, building up a case against you, thatkind of thing.
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So that's how we're managing.
And how do you handle that in those therapysessions that you have?
Right?
Like, because you work with a lot of coupleswho are deciding whether to stay, whether to
go, like, dealing with all that stuff.
And and I'm presuming, you know, I guess, let'sanswer this from a both a psychological and a
financial perspective.
Right?
Like, you got the how do you, like, practicallywork through this with with couples that are
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from a psychological perspective, but also,like, encouraged to explore, like, how to
handle the financial aspects in in these inthese cases that are super high conflict?
Yeah.
That's a good question.
I mean, because con I mean, couples come to mebefore they're ready to break up, or they're
right at the edge sometimes.
They're like, we were gonna break up, wedecided we'd try couples therapy.
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That's that's quite often when they come in.
You know, I watched the interactions of what'shappening in front of me, and I can recognize
narcissistic patterns pretty quickly.
I'll call it out.
And what happens that's different with me andother therapists when it comes to someone who
is experiencing narcissism is I understand itin a deep enough way that I start by guessing
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what's happening for them, because they're notsharing what's happening for them.
They're just playing the game as they think.
And so I will start guessing, are you thinkingthis right now?
Are you feeling this right now?
When she said this, did you think this?
And they're like, oh, well, yes.
And when she said that, did this happen?
So I have to be guessing the narcissisticprocesses that are going on for them and not
judging them at all and recognizing wherethey're coming from and how that reaction is
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happening.
And when I start guessing what's happeninginside them, that's when they start sharing
what's happening inside them.
Because essentially, narcissism is is livingall off in separation by itself, and that's why
it leaves reality.
It's like an angry child, and no one's in theirinner circle with that anger, and they never
let them in over there.
So when I'm able to get into that inner circlewith them, that's when that inner circle is
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able to expand.
Over time, they develop the the ability to dealwith difficult emotions, which they just do not
wanna deal with.
They, you know, they they they avoid so manythings that if they go anywhere near it, they
have an explosive reaction because they'rethey're avoiding so many things.
This is actually toxic positivity even.
Toxic positivity can cause narcissism.
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If you're avoiding all negative things to bepositive all the time, it doesn't work.
It does not work.
If you are not letting yourself go to grief, ifyou are denying that you feel anger when you
feel anger, if if you're you are justdesensitizing your body, and you become numb,
and it it just doesn't work.
And then you're you're also not feeling withthe emotions of the other.
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You know, if you don't go to sadness and yourpartner comes comes to you sad, the dog died,
and you're not allowing yourself to go tosadness, your partner's alone in that that
sadness, and they will feel alone.
And they're they're gonna feel abandonment, andthey're gonna feel neglect, and they're gonna
even feel rejection by the inability to feelwith them in those difficult emotions.
I'm seeing that a lot.
That's what I see mostly in couples, is the guyhas been taught not to feel, and that's common
(22:29):
in our society.
And it's coming it's coming from pastgenerations of trauma.
Is is John Wayne syndrome?
John Wayne syndrome.
Yeah.
Makes syndrome.
Right?
I mean, like, I've I've heard other otherguests on the show and and even in even in
person.
Like, I've talked to people about this.
Like, you know, it's it's that John Waynesyndrome.
Like, I've I've I've got it all handled and,like, you know, get off my lawn.
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Like, you know, like, like, you know, I've I'veI've got it all taken care of.
And it's just it's just not practical.
You have a nervous system.
Men and women and everyone, doesn't matter whatyou experience your gender as, you have a
nervous system.
You feel all the feelings, all the but men havebeen taught to to hold it back and to not feel
it and to be strong anyway.
(23:10):
Well, to be brave is to feel fear and do itanyway.
That is to be brave.
But it's not to not feel fear.
We we feel the fear, and then we accept thefear, we acknowledge that we're afraid, and
then we step up and we do the thing.
But if we if we force ourselves to not feelfear, the unfortunate thing is you cannot
selectively decide which emotions you cannotfeel.
(23:32):
You end up desensitizing yourself to yourself,and you end up feeling empty.
And you end up feeling empty in a way thatyou're trying to always feel better, always
feel happy, and you can't quite ever feelhappy.
You're chasing it by buying a bigger house, anda bigger car, and a bigger this, and I'll feel
happy when this happens, and I'll feel happywhen I get married, and I'll feel happy when I
have kids, and then I'm gonna feel happy when Iget a bigger house.
(23:52):
And they never feel happy.
Yeah.
If you've desensitized your body, this is whereall your emotions are coming from.
You can't ignore some of them.
Some people have had a major trauma, andthey've they've cut themselves off emotionally,
and they're also not happy.
They they do things that foster feeling in thathappy energy, but it's it's shallow.
It's baseless.
You know?
The but they're constantly chasing happy inthat in that case.
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It's crazy, man.
There's so many different things that go onthrough a divorce.
Look.
So we've we've talked a lot about, I mean, wewe could do a whole show.
We haven't even talked about, like, kids andhow they're involved.
I mean, we could do a whole other show on this.
But let's let's talk a little bit about, youknow, sticking with the couples here.
We we've talked a lot about, like, leading upto divorce and preparing for divorce and, like,
how couples come to you and they've they theysort, you know, that out and they talk to you
(24:39):
about how they're gonna proceed, talk aboutgoing through divorce and some of the factors
that we we see as as the divorce is unfolding,one of these days, the divorce is gonna be
over.
And that person has to go on.
They have to be able to heal.
They have to remain, you know, financially andemotionally intact.
Right?
So, like, how do you how do you do all thatwhen you're leaving a controlling and toxic
(25:02):
relationship?
What are some of the the things that you coachyour clients on once the dust has settled?
So staying off the battlefield is is fun.
Don't don't get pulled into anything.
Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
Oh my goodness.
You know, of course, it's more complicated whenyou're sharing children because the boundaries
have to be so much different because you'resharing children.
(25:25):
You're co parenting.
If you're co parenting, you kind of need youyou need really, really clear boundaries, and
you need to be parallel parenting almost,rather than co parenting, it can be very
difficult to have agreement.
So we're you're making the best of a badsituation.
Document everything that's important so that itdoesn't get twisted.
(25:45):
Like, don't delete the texts.
If you don't want them on your phone, keep themin some kind of other way.
Don't delete the emails.
Yeah, it's really important to document things,because they will use half truths against you.
They may get mad at you later if you know, itmight be an amicable divorce, but then they see
you with a new partner, and all of a suddenthey're enraged, and they decide to come back
(26:05):
and attack.
Make sure you're ready for that.
I've been attacked.
I've had little random attacks.
You know, I I have an axe who shows up everyfew years online as a as a different fake
person to attack me or attack my partner in inan emotional sort of way, and and and it's just
these weird random attacks that come on throughsocial media, and it takes me a little while to
(26:27):
realize, oh my gosh, I know this is you again,Jeepers.
Are you still there?
You know?
But it's like every time they have anotherbreakup, they come in back and attack the ex.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You you gotta just be ready for that and nottake it personally.
You know?
It's nothing about you.
If if someone's being an asshole to you, it'sabout them.
They are the jerk, not you.
You know?
If someone's that's what goes wrong in these inthese relationships too, because the partner is
(26:51):
blamed, blamed, blamed for all the if someone'snarcissistic, they feel like how they feel is
your fault.
So they come in the house, and you're having abad day.
They may actually make it into a fight, becausesuddenly, they're not feeling great, they're
angry that you're having a bad day.
It's like, what's wrong with you?
And like, oh, I had a really hard day.
Oh, you think you had a hard day?
(27:12):
And then all of a sudden, you're fighting, andyou're like, where did that fight come from?
You don't even know where it came from.
Yeah.
So you have to protect against things likethat.
You know, my ADHD came up and it just sort ofthe train went off the rails.
It does I
I actually dealt with a scenario like likewell, just I'll just share personally.
Right?
So what we had we're we're we're filming thisin the early part of early part of June.
(27:36):
It's graduation time.
Had a graduation last night.
And, you know, we we finally have now get tothe point where, like, the family can all come
together and so on and so forth.
And, like and and it was, you know, veryamicable, and we had a great time and got to
celebrate my son graduating and the wholething.
And grandpa still can't let go of the anger inthis particular and, like, it's like like this
(27:59):
anger just like just like seeps through thewhole family.
Right?
Like, when you're going through a divorce.
So you've gotta, like, be careful of thatbecause some of these boundaries that you're
talking about setting up, like, had there beenbetter boundaries in my own situation, maybe,
like, that anger wouldn't have been able toseep through these other layers of the family.
Like, the son of a bitch wouldn't even shake myhand last night.
I'm like, we've been divorced eight years.
(28:21):
Right?
So it's like like and it's bothersome.
Right?
I'm like, wow.
This is like like and I don't have anythingagainst the guy.
I think he's a yeah.
I think he's a great guy.
He was always amazing to me, but it's like allthese things like, it's just like see it's now
And then and it's hard to unwind that becausethese family members are like they're I don't I
don't even know how to describe this.
(28:41):
I don't even really know.
Maybe my ADHD is kicking in with this.
I don't even know if I have it, but maybe I do.
But, you know, I'm I'm thinking through, like,oh, you're talking about with these boundaries
and, like, how, like, it's so hard to heal andall these things.
And I'm like, I watched my family last night,like, my ex wife and, you where everybody
hugged and she even you know, she's hugging mymy my now wife because I'm since remarried and
the kids are all getting along and this otherstuff.
(29:02):
And then I'm watching, like, the next layer,the next the her stepfather Yeah.
Still is not over this thing.
And it's been, like, eight years.
It's like, what the hell, dude?
Forgiveness is a relationship skill.
It's it's an emotional process.
It's a higher level emotional process.
And he doesn't recognize that when he isfeeling those ugly feelings, he is the one
(29:24):
that's feeling that negative energy in hisbody.
It's not you.
He's feeling anger and nasty person.
He's the one that's in that negative energy.
He's the one that's drowning in that.
That's why forgiveness is important.
It's not for the person over there.
It's because he's producing cortisol.
He's more likely to get cancer.
He's more likely to have a heart attack whenyou're harboring those resentments and those
(29:46):
angers.
We learn to give those things up and acceptthat other people are flawed and not perfect
and that things go wrong, we let those go.
But yeah, he's just living in that ugly statewhen it comes to this, not letting it go.
Probably because he's been unhappily marriedfor twenty five years, but who will?
Mean,
the couple generation before too.
(30:07):
I mean, it it became it became a bad patternbecause honestly, you know, I tell couples who
who are deciding whether or not to stay, theway you treat your wife, is that how you would
like your daughter to be treated later?
The way you're treating your wife now becausethat is the pattern she will follow.
Your daughter is very likely to have a patternwho's gonna treat her the way you were treating
(30:28):
your wife.
Are you proud of how you treat your wife?
Are you you know, do you feel good about theinteraction between you?
If you don't, you should be divorcing becausethose are the patterns you are giving them.
If you if you can't get along
This is an amazing point because I say this allthe time.
Like, I like, the the relationship I have withmy now wife compared to the relationship I have
with my ex wife, it's obvious there's adifference.
(30:50):
Right?
And the kids see it.
And I and that was my biggest thing when I whenI decided I want a divorce.
Was like, I don't want my kids to ever have tofeel the way that I feel.
Right.
Right?
I don't want I want them to recognize that,like, there is a land of happiness out there.
This may not be it for me right now, and thisis gonna hurt.
It's gonna be very bumpy, and and it certainlywas.
But I think, like, you know, like, as they'regetting older, they're they're recognizing
(31:13):
that, you know, I've I've taken myself out ofthat narcissistic relationship.
I've been able to grow, you know, personally,professionally, and all these pieces.
I've become a better dad, I think.
And, you know, I try to be, like, very, like,pragmatic and practical and, like, the steady
ship.
Like, the kid you can hate me.
You cannot like the way that I'm parenting you.
You can do all these things, but I'm gonna be,like, slow and steady.
(31:36):
Right?
And I think and I think, like, even last nightin this experience, my the first thing I
thought of was, you don't have to shake myhand, but you damn you damn bit well better
respect me in front of my kids.
Because I would never disrespect you in frontof their grand I would never disrespect you in
front of them.
Yeah.
So you have that boundary.
So so there's so you know what I'm saying?
So so, like, so I guess, you know, we're alltalking about my personal situation.
(31:59):
It's like, this is not about me, but I'm hopingit's a lesson to people that are listening.
Like, you can set boundaries with not withpeople that, like it doesn't have to be with
just your ex wife or your ex husband or yourex, you know, your ex partner.
Like, it can go the next layer.
Like, you've gotta, like, starts and and Ithought those there was I don't think there was
a reason for those boundaries being in place.
Apparently, they still are.
So, you know, you but I I think the messagehere really is, like, you know, if if you can
(32:22):
focus on the kids and focus on yourself andjust try to be that, like, steady ship in the
night, you know, things will things will allwork themselves out.
Because I'm seeing it firsthand.
Like, the kids are amazing, and they're like,we have a great relationship, and, like, we
text each other, call each other, like, all thestuff.
Right?
But it took a long time to get there because ofsome of the things that were going on behind
these.
And they were growing.
I mean, they're just young kids.
Like, they were, like, feeling their all thefeels about the divorce themselves.
(32:45):
Well, part of the narcissism epidemic we arewatching is truly because couples stayed
together who hated each other too much.
That is part of what went wrong.
You shouldn't begrudge each other every day andstill stay together.
The patterns that is passing along aredisconnected, right?
A narcissist is living in me versus you.
They feel like others are against them, so I'magainst you too.
(33:08):
If that's what you're watching in your parentsbecause they never get along, yeah, it will
create narcissistic ways of being for the nextgeneration.
Naturally, it would.
We learn how to treat each other.
Our our brains are developing.
We're born unfinished.
You know, we we are come into the world.
Our brain is still developing until we're 27.
It's still developing a lot until we're 17, butit's still developing really, really fast until
(33:31):
we're 13.
So, you know, you can pick up a language quiteeasily if you start before 13 because your
brain is laying down so many pathways.
So all those things that happened before you're13, the way your parents are acting together,
that becomes how you see parents are actingtogether, and you don't even know it's anything
different than others.
They might learn it's dysfunctional becausethey see TV, and they see, you know, maybe
(33:52):
families on TV that are getting along.
But they also may think, oh, that's fantasy.
That's not how real people live.
Real people fight every day.
You know, there are lots of people who thinkthat, honestly.
And people come into therapy, and you say, howwas your childhood?
It's almost always, oh, it was okay.
It was average.
And but if they're coming in for therapy, veryoften, it's not actually when we dig into it,
it was normal for you because you grew up withit.
(34:15):
But wow.
And, you know, and that that's a lot of thetherapy is is just being seen in your actual
experience by someone who's witnessing whathappened for you.
And in the case of narcissism, there's often alot of disconnection and a lot of trauma that
really got stored up, that they have developed,like, two versions of themself, you know, the
nice version and this nasty version they gettriggered into.
(34:37):
And this version really is like an angry child,you know, and the wise adult needs to to grow.
And you're talking about your wise adult takingover.
You know, go to this function, you're like,woah.
Look at all this going on, Jeepers.
That's your wise adult, ruling.
You know, and we're we're meant to have ourwise adult be ruling.
We have different parts of ourselves.
Your angry child might get triggered sometimes,but you know your wise adult's the one that's
(34:59):
supposed to take the driving seat.
When it's when it's a narcissist, they forgetabout the wise adult.
That's the thing.
Like like that that father-in-law, he forgetshis wise adult.
The wise adult disappears.
It goes into anger.
And that's just angry child, oh, nasty man.
Nasty.
And that's, you know, that's polarized too,right, seeing you good or bad.
Right?
(35:19):
Not all the shades of gray that Jamie actuallyis, but is bad.
Good.
Like, you know, that's that's that's verynarcissistic.
That was and that's childish.
And all children are narcissistic.
That's where the word was used.
It was used by Freud to describe children'sprocesses.
Now, you know, the world does revolve aroundus.
We we do think that people are there to fillour needs.
(35:41):
We do not have object constancy.
We do forget that mommy's the one we love, andbe like, I hate you, mommy.
You're a bad that's real.
That's normal for kids to do that.
They shouldn't even be punished for it becausethey do lack object constancy, but that's when
we teach them object constancy.
It's not a punishable.
It's a teachable.
It's saying, loves you, and I know you're angryright now, and but we teach them object
(36:03):
constancy.
If they didn't get taught that, if they werejust say, go to your room until you're calm,
they might not learn object constancy Yeah.
Actually.
Like and that's a lot of parenting we've beentaught came from traumatized people.
If you can imagine people coming back from war,granddad came back from war traumatized, but we
didn't know what trauma was fifty years ago orseventy years ago.
(36:23):
And those processes of getting upset andtriggered and avoiding emotions, that was
grandpa for a lot of people.
And he would have been abusive to his wife, andhe would have been detached from his kids, and
he may have drank too much alcohol, or he triedto be good, always trying to be good, trying to
be happy to avoid the trauma, and then, know,making the kids always be happy.
And if the kids come with something serious orbad or it's like, oh, grow up and be a man.
(36:46):
I'm a man.
And that essentially, you know, complex posttrauma stress disorder essentially being passed
to the next generation as if that's that'sparenting.
And that did happen.
That happened a lot.
You know?
Keep calm and carry on was not meant for everyday.
It was just meant for wartime.
And and we took it on.
We took it on as a way of being.
And now we can see it sort of playing out in abig mess.
(37:09):
It really is a big mess all the way around.
And I'd love to have you back and talk moreabout some of this stuff because I think it's
it's incredibly important.
The message is incredibly insightful and andreally just a a unique perspective on some of
the emotional and financial fallout that we seein high conflict divorces.
So, Darren, thanks so much, man, for being withon the show today.
For anyone that is dealing with thecomplexities of a toxic relationship, I really,
(37:32):
really encourage you to to check out more ofDarren's work on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube,
explore some of the remote therapy options thathe has available through his practice.
And as always, if you need financial guidanceor clarity or any support from the financial
side of your divorce, you can head over toallegiantds.com to learn more about how our
team can help and book a complimentary andconfidential call there.
(37:55):
Don't forget to subscribe to more episodes ofBroke Up Not Broken like this and for more
expert advice on empowering conversations.
Until next time.
Welcome back to another episode of Broke Up NotBroken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima, and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire divorce process.
Today, I'm joined by Darren Elliott.
Darren brings both clinical expertise and thelived experience to this conversation, having
(00:25):
survived narcissistic abuse in navigating alife with ADHD.
He specializes in helping individuals andcouples work through disconnection, especially
in high conflict relationships.
Today, we're gonna dive into the psychologicaldynamics of divorce, especially when narcissism
is in play, and how these dynamics can impactfinancial clarity, boundaries, and long term
(00:46):
planning.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, buckle up, and let's once again get you
personally and financially empowered.
Darren, so great to have you with us today,man.
Thank you so much, Jamie.
I'm excited to be here with you.
Yeah.
Well, we've got a lot to talk about becauselike I said in our our pregame here for this
conversation, we work with a lot of people whoare trying to navigate the financial aspects of
(01:09):
divorce and are having a very hard time doingit, not only psychologically, but financially
because of narcissism that's involved.
And I I wanna I wanna give you an opportunityto introduce yourself and share a little bit
about the work that you do, but I I wanna alsofocus on that word narcissism because we hear
it a lot in the work that we do.
And I'm not a psychiatrist.
(01:29):
I'm not a therapist.
Like, you know, so I have a little bit ofexperience, you know, on the on the
psychological aspect of things, but I'm not apro like you.
And a lot of people use that word incorrectly,so I wanna make sure we talk a little bit about
that, make sure that we're we're not justthrowing this word out just randomly.
We actually are using it in the right context.
So why don't you share a little bit about thework that you do, we can go from there.
(01:51):
Great.
Thanks, Jamie.
Yeah.
The word narcissist is thrown around it's justall it's thrown around like an insult today.
It so it's used very widely, and it's alsoquite misunderstood.
It is usually used as an insult, but there'sthere's certain traits that people assume to be
narcissism that may or may not be narcissism.
And people behave in different ways whenthey're in different emotional states.
(02:13):
But I wanna mention, if you have a narcissisticpartner, you do need it is highly advisable to
seek a solution like yours to have a thirdparty in charge of analyzing the financials,
because that is the kind of thing you do needwhen you're divorcing someone who's
narcissistic.
Because they they have a narrative, and theirnarrative is the true narrative.
(02:33):
And they they need to be right and you to bewrong.
And that's one of the things that you can usurpis instead of me being right and you being
wrong, we have Jamie come in, and he's doingthe finances, and we both just trust Amy.
So it's not something we have to fight about.
It's not something we have to disagree on.
We're bring bringing in a third party to dealwith our finances and to sort it out.
(02:53):
That that makes makes it so much easier, butit's so important.
It well, because the math math's right.
I mean, two plus two is four, and who's gonnaargue about that.
Right?
Right.
So you're taking away a lot of the conflict,because there's a lot of conflict around
finances that you actually very well know.
And there's and there's different opinionsabout it.
And the thing with someone who's narcissistic,if they truly are, they're right and you're
(03:15):
wrong when it comes to their partner.
So they need to be right and they need theirpartner to be wrong.
But they might be fine with you being right,Jamie.
So if you put you in the one who's giving themthe financial numbers and stuff, it makes it
easier for both of them, in fact, becausethere's a narrative there.
I I've I've seen that come to play come comeinto play a few times.
I mean, just because, you know, you're youknow, we we we do two things.
(03:39):
One, we do we do mediation where we help, youknow, people come to, you know, an agreement
and try to do so amicably.
And then we also work as an advocate.
So we basically be on team Darren.
Right?
And and when we're on team Darren, it's easy Icould see where it'd be easier for the other
party to think that, you know, we're just youknow, we're biased or what have you.
But with with the reporting that we do and andthe analysis that we run and just being able to
(04:05):
show them the facts, like, hey.
Here's here's here's the math behind what we'reproposing, and this is why.
It's it's it's it's often hard to argue that.
And I think it it like you said, you know, ithelps to, you know, stifle some of that angst,
anger, you know, that's that's bubblingunderneath the surface.
Well, it'll help them deal with their polarizedresponses as well.
(04:27):
Because someone who's dealing with narcissismtends to have a yes, right, good, bad response,
and also a win, lose.
And that's where it goes really wrong in adivorce, is I need to win and I need them to
lose.
So in this case, where it's right and wrong,you bring in the right.
So it's sort of giving them a polarized, well,this is correct, and they can go with correct.
(04:49):
So you're not going to the polarized responseof me versus you.
I win and you lose.
I'm good and you're bad.
So that's super helpful.
To let them feel like they're winning is partof the work as well, to recognize I'm helping
you both here, because that's really important.
They need to feel like they're winning.
And if they don't feel like they're winning,they're going to attack.
(05:09):
So I would imagine part of your work is like,this is how we come up with a really fair
thing, and we're not gonna make a mistake, andyou're not gonna be cheated.
Because they also are feeling like they'rebeing cheated.
You're trying to cheat me, so they're gonna tryto cheat you first.
So you if if you're giving them clarificationthat no one's gonna be cheated here because I'm
taking care of the numbers in a systemic way,and numbers are numbers, then that that feeling
(05:30):
of everyone's trying to cheat me, that can bedealt with.
So you're you're actually giving themnarcissistic management tactics just by being
there with your service.
That's amazing.
Thank you for that.
You should be in my next commercial.
Right.
It takes a lot of management.
It takes a lot of you know, because fairness isone of the things that they really get upset
about, and they really do have the feeling likeeveryone's taking advantage of me when they get
(05:53):
into that triggered position.
Managing that is very, very important, and theywill not be able to manage it from their
partner because their partner's considered onthe other team.
Yeah.
But you can be on their team, as you rightlyacknowledge.
That's what happens in therapy too.
I I I'm I'm on both of their team, and they'rethey're able to feel that I'm on both of their
team.
That's how the work is possible.
It's developing trust with someone who doesn'ttrust easily.
(06:15):
So let's let's talk about that a little bit.
There's I I, on my side, see a lot of, like,financial abuse, financial manipulation, so on
and so forth.
And and it's really hard to get any realfinancial clarity on what is fair and what is
what is just and what, you know, what isequitable in a divorce when you're and when
there's so much of that going on.
(06:37):
And I'm I presume you see that in the work thatyou do as well in that, you know, that
interaction between the the spouses and and thework that you do.
So for those that are out there that arevictims of this and are starting to think
through, like, alright.
I need to gather all my financial information.
I need to make sure I'm well, I'm gonna getwhat's what's right, but they are locked out of
that information.
There's they just don't have access to it.
(06:58):
You know, there's a lot of manipulation goingon, so on and so forth.
How do you I I guess the word is, like, whatare what are some common tactics you can share
to help people get beyond that and maybe cometo the table with a much more you know, being
much more forthright?
So I I do recommend they service themselveswith resources like yours, but also a divorce
(07:19):
coach, actually, someone else to take the leadapart from the two of them and the lawyer.
The divorce coach will charge less than thelawyer, and will have more expertise with how
to deal with them, for one.
When it comes to narcissism, you're essentiallydealing with angry, immature, emotional
processes.
So if you think angry man child in the case ofa husband or angry woman child in the case of a
(07:44):
woman, I say man child because it's much morecommon.
The prevalence of narcissism in men is much,much higher.
And when I work with couples, it's much morecommon that the husband is living in
grandiosity and separation, and the wife isliving in emotional aloneness.
But the self image of the person matters a lot,and they care what you think about them, until
(08:10):
they don't.
But if you're able to keep them in a placewhere they care what you think about them,
Jamie so they they care that you see them as anhonest and responsible person, so they're going
to try to act honest and responsible they theydo tend to try to impress others more than
their own partner, and that's part of what goeswrong over the years.
You know, they'll go to a restaurant, and thethe part he wants to impress the waiter more
(08:31):
than the wife.
He wants to impress the the waitress, and he'sflirting with the waitress and making his wife
feel small.
Like, it's more important to them whatstrangers think even than the person who's with
them, because the person who's with them doessee the other side of them at home.
Generally speaking, generally, have an outsideface and an inside face.
They do try to hide that inside face with theirpartner.
(08:54):
But essentially, what we're dealing with innarcissism is a split.
We have a person who is living in this reality,this version of themselves that they believe to
be true, basically living in their self imageand denying everything that doesn't match their
self image as not being true.
So if they see themselves as a good, generousChristian father, they're gonna sort of accept
(09:20):
all the behavior that agrees with what they seethemselves as a good Christian father.
And if they do something that doesn't matchthat behavior, they're almost able to not
believe it, because they're living in thisreality that they've created, and they avoid
the other reality.
And in this reality, there's nothing to blamehere.
There's nothing wrong with me.
Yeah.
And that's part of the game that often needs tobe played at the end of a relationship if
(09:44):
you're trying to minimize the fighting to tolet them be right even if they're not.
You know?
It's like, yes.
I'm so sorry.
I wasn't good enough for you, you know, for thepartner.
Let them be right instead of fight, fight,fight, fight, fight.
I'm only leaving you because you were mean tome every single day, blah blah blah.
You know, that's not gonna help anything.
You just wanna get away from this person andstop the fighting.
(10:05):
Yes.
You you are leaving them now.
They don't give closure, though, Jamie.
That's part of what happens.
They they don't accept accountability.
They don't accept responsibility.
Part of what happens is, you know, someone willbe with, you know, their partner for ten years
and just be tired of being like the parent.
It's like, you know, it's been ten years, andthey still put their their dishes on top of the
(10:25):
counter and wait for me to put them in themachine instead of just putting them in the
machine.
Ten years, and, like, I didn't grow up with adishwasher.
It's like, you didn't learn how to use it inten years?
Who cares if you didn't grow up with adishwasher?
Like, put a YouTube video on and figure out howto use the dishwasher.
Exactly.
But all these little it's all these littlethings usually that build up.
And at the end, they're just fighting about allthe stupid little nothings.
(10:48):
So to minimize the contact, we actuallyminimize engagement.
And we use what's called the BIF method.
And that's because when they're at the point ofdivorce, they're not living together,
hopefully, at this point.
They're not having the daily interactions.
They're leaving for good reasons.
Keeping their interactions brief, informative,friendly, and firm.
(11:14):
Just short.
Just short.
Because if they really are a narcissist, thenthey they enjoy causing reactions in others.
Makes them feel special.
Makes them feel important.
Causing people to panic.
It actually gives them an emotional some kindof emotional thing because they're looking for
validation all the time.
One of the traits of narcissism is theaddiction to validation.
(11:37):
I need to be feeling good, and you need to bemaking me feel good.
So if you're able to make your client feelgood, they'll be more compliant.
If you're making them feel good aboutthemselves, they are going to be more
cooperative.
They tend to behave the way we are seeing themas well because they learn to mirror others a
lot.
(11:57):
So if you treat someone like they're a supernice, friendly guy, you're more likely to get a
super nice, friendly guy in return because theyreally are used to mirroring the person in
front of them if we're actually dealing withnarcissism rather than just being authentic.
If you see them as an asshole, you willprobably get an asshole because they don't care
to show you the face facade then.
Like, oh, right.
Well, you see me as an asshole.
(12:18):
Oh, show you, asshole.
Like, that it's so how we how we treat themreally, really, really makes a big difference
in the case of narcissism.
It it's they're extremely sensitive to feedbackthat's perceived as criticism.
So things need sugar coating.
They really do.
And, you know, I don't teach couples you don'thave to manage your partner.
But if you're leaving your partner and youwanna minimize the damage, you do have to
(12:42):
manage that partner while you're minimizing thedamage.
100%, man.
So there's there's a lot to unpack here.
And the BIF method is, you know, is one that Isubscribed to myself.
And, having having actually talked had a chanceto to see Bill Eddie speak, who is the one that
like, the founding father of that method, BillEddie, he they get the I think it's one of the
(13:04):
most amazing ways to do things.
And one of my next questions for you was gonnabe around boundaries because as you're saying
this, it's like boundaries like, I'm all I'mhearing is, like, we've gotta set, like, some
some financial, emotional boundaries in thisprocess.
And in in my own divorce, that was one of thethings that I struggled my with myself early
on, where it was like I I was like, I just wantthis thing over with.
(13:24):
You know, like, how do we get the you know,like, do we make this, like, kumbaya and
everybody get along and just move on?
And and the response back that I got back wasI'm gonna make this as painful and as expensive
as possible, so so get ready.
That that was what I got back.
So Oh.
Before I had a chance to to learn more about,like, you know, the Bill Eddie approach and the
(13:45):
Biff approach and and, like, you know, workingwith people like you.
And and I'll I'll I'll just share this withyou.
One of the things that I'm a I'm a big advocatefor is creating that team you, which is
bringing people like you into the mix early onto get the emotional support, to work with
financial planners like us to get the financialsupport, having a good attorney if you need
(14:07):
one.
Not everybody needs to have an attorney on theteam because nine times out of 10, you're just
gonna flush a bunch of money down the toilet.
That being said, most of us could not getthrough this experience without having an
attorney to fight those those legal battles.
So you've gotta have, you know, you've gottahave your friends and family.
You've gotta have all this support around youcreating team you with in order to be able to
(14:27):
get yourself through it.
Big mistake that I made was not doing that.
Oh.
Bigger a bigger mistake that I made was notabiding by the BIF method, you know, being
brief, being being what was what's what's I?
I forget.
Informative.
Just Informative.
This is the information friendly way, firm way.
Inform.
Affirm is the boundaries.
(14:48):
100%.
So so one of the things that I tell people now,which is a lesson that I learned, is you should
never respond to a text or an email in themoment of that anger angst because that's what
these narcissists do.
Right?
They like
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's this diatribe.
Like, you're an asshole.
You're this thing.
You're gonna make us homeless.
You're gonna do all these things.
(15:08):
And it's like like it's like on and on and on.
And I would sit there, dude, and I'd be like,just wanna, like, fire off the next email.
And what I what I would do is I would sit thereand I would draft that email and, like, get it
off my chest, all the things that I wanted tosay, and then delete it all.
And Yeah.
Delete it all and reply back with no more thanthree sentences.
(15:30):
And it was the best thing that I ever did.
So let's talk a little bit about boundariesand, like, how, like, someone can start to
rebuild their confidence and, like, hold theirground and make firm financial decisions even
when they're emotionally drained because that'swhere a lot of this comes in.
Right?
Yes.
And, you know, there's a lot of controversyright now about AI, but I can tell you that I
(15:51):
am using AI to very good effect with clients.
Hell, yeah.
This is one of the places I recommend using AIbecause it does have it has access to so much
information.
You you can ask AI to take my response, and youcan give it instructions.
You can say, you know, here's a project.
I want you to respond in a firm, concise,friendly, clear way that will not offend a
(16:16):
narcissist.
You could tell that to your AI instructions.
And then you can put in your actual responsethat's saying how much you hate them, they're
such a stupid heart, and I can't put and youput that into AI and let it rewrite you
something that's not gonna offend thenarcissist.
Honestly, it can do that.
It can do that.
It can often
do words.
This is exactly ties into the, like, theemotional regulation, and you also you talk a
(16:37):
lot about emotional disconnection.
This is your way to be able to do that.
You know?
When you're upset, your brain is turned off.
People need to recognize that.
They when they're getting when they're feelinglike this because they just got a stupid
accusatory email from their partner that's justridiculous, they're feeling like this, their
whole frontal cortex turns off if they're infight and flight mode.
(16:58):
So you're not thinking with your full brain.
You are going to say and do things that youreally don't even mean when your wise adult is
awake, because your wise adult lives in themost advanced part of our brain, which is up
here.
And when you're in that triggered state, yeah,do not reply, unless you're using a really good
AI filter to fix your reply before you send itbecause you have to before in two hours.
(17:18):
But no, yeah, calm down.
Sleep on it.
Think about it.
Let yourself vent your true reply, and thensay, would this help me or hurt me?
Oh, okay.
So if the truth is gonna hurt me, then thatthat's not what I wanna do.
That's not the outcome.
We're we're you're not gonna get closure.
That's why it goes so very, very wrong isbecause you do not get closure with a
(17:39):
narcissist.
They do not accept what their side was.
They have a reality that will not matchreality.
They they will be and so that doesn't give youclosure, it gives you that feeling of wanting
to get closure over and over and over.
You're not going to get it from them.
You're gonna need to get it from a therapist ora coach or your best friend.
You're not gonna get closure if someone's trulynarcissistic.
(18:01):
They they don't allow it.
Unless you have a coach like, I work withnarcissism.
I don't consider it a fixed personalitydisorder.
But when someone is in therapy for narcissism,they become a recovering narcissist, just like
an an alcoholic becomes a recovering alcoholic.
And if they stop doing the personal work, theydo fall back into their narcissistic ways.
(18:22):
They can they can break out of them with withdaily personal work and, you know, and guidance
to mature emotionally because, you know, anarcissist is emotionally immature.
He's acting on processes of that are me versusyou.
They're lacking object constancy.
And what I mean by that is when they're mad attheir partner, they forget that they love their
partner.
(18:42):
And for most of us, that keeps us in what wecall compassion.
I'm mad at this person, but I love them, andthey love me.
Therefore, I'm not gonna attack them.
That's object constancy.
That doesn't exist if they're really anarcissist.
When they're mad, all they are aware of isanger, and they they will launch into a mean
attack, and they think you deserve it.
Or they've learned not to launch into meanattack, and they go into quiet, cold distance
(19:07):
where they're vengeful and contemptful, and youfeel the cold distance, but they're pretending,
oh, no.
Everything's fine.
I'm fine over here.
But meanwhile, you know, they're plotting yourdeath.
You know?
Like, you can feel the cold.
So they'll either they'll either be overtlyabusive, or they'll be passive aggressively
abusive, building up a case against you, thatkind of thing.
(19:28):
So that's how we're managing.
And how do you handle that in those therapysessions that you have?
Right?
Like, because you work with a lot of coupleswho are deciding whether to stay, whether to
go, like, dealing with all that stuff.
And and I'm presuming, you know, I guess, let'sanswer this from a both a psychological and a
financial perspective.
Right?
Like, you got the how do you, like, practicallywork through this with with couples that are
(19:49):
from a psychological perspective, but also,like, encouraged to explore, like, how to
handle the financial aspects in in these inthese cases that are super high conflict?
Yeah.
That's a good question.
I mean, because con I mean, couples come to mebefore they're ready to break up, or they're
right at the edge sometimes.
They're like, we were gonna break up, wedecided we'd try couples therapy.
(20:11):
That's that's quite often when they come in.
You know, I watched the interactions of what'shappening in front of me, and I can recognize
narcissistic patterns pretty quickly.
I'll call it out.
And what happens that's different with me andother therapists when it comes to someone who
is experiencing narcissism is I understand itin a deep enough way that I start by guessing
(20:34):
what's happening for them, because they're notsharing what's happening for them.
They're just playing the game as they think.
And so I will start guessing, are you thinkingthis right now?
Are you feeling this right now?
When she said this, did you think this?
And they're like, oh, well, yes.
And when she said that, did this happen?
So I have to be guessing the narcissisticprocesses that are going on for them and not
judging them at all and recognizing wherethey're coming from and how that reaction is
(20:58):
happening.
And when I start guessing what's happeninginside them, that's when they start sharing
what's happening inside them.
Because essentially, narcissism is is livingall off in separation by itself, and that's why
it leaves reality.
It's like an angry child, and no one's in theirinner circle with that anger, and they never
let them in over there.
So when I'm able to get into that inner circlewith them, that's when that inner circle is
(21:21):
able to expand.
Over time, they develop the the ability to dealwith difficult emotions, which they just do not
wanna deal with.
They, you know, they they they avoid so manythings that if they go anywhere near it, they
have an explosive reaction because they'rethey're avoiding so many things.
This is actually toxic positivity even.
Toxic positivity can cause narcissism.
(21:42):
If you're avoiding all negative things to bepositive all the time, it doesn't work.
It does not work.
If you are not letting yourself go to grief, ifyou are denying that you feel anger when you
feel anger, if if you're you are justdesensitizing your body, and you become numb,
and it it just doesn't work.
And then you're you're also not feeling withthe emotions of the other.
(22:03):
You know, if you don't go to sadness and yourpartner comes comes to you sad, the dog died,
and you're not allowing yourself to go tosadness, your partner's alone in that that
sadness, and they will feel alone.
And they're they're gonna feel abandonment, andthey're gonna feel neglect, and they're gonna
even feel rejection by the inability to feelwith them in those difficult emotions.
I'm seeing that a lot.
That's what I see mostly in couples, is the guyhas been taught not to feel, and that's common
(22:29):
in our society.
And it's coming it's coming from pastgenerations of trauma.
Is is John Wayne syndrome?
John Wayne syndrome.
Yeah.
Makes syndrome.
Right?
I mean, like, I've I've heard other otherguests on the show and and even in even in
person.
Like, I've talked to people about this.
Like, you know, it's it's that John Waynesyndrome.
Like, I've I've I've got it all handled and,like, you know, get off my lawn.
(22:49):
Like, you know, like, like, you know, I've I'veI've got it all taken care of.
And it's just it's just not practical.
You have a nervous system.
Men and women and everyone, doesn't matter whatyou experience your gender as, you have a
nervous system.
You feel all the feelings, all the but men havebeen taught to to hold it back and to not feel
it and to be strong anyway.
(23:10):
Well, to be brave is to feel fear and do itanyway.
That is to be brave.
But it's not to not feel fear.
We we feel the fear, and then we accept thefear, we acknowledge that we're afraid, and
then we step up and we do the thing.
But if we if we force ourselves to not feelfear, the unfortunate thing is you cannot
selectively decide which emotions you cannotfeel.
(23:32):
You end up desensitizing yourself to yourself,and you end up feeling empty.
And you end up feeling empty in a way thatyou're trying to always feel better, always
feel happy, and you can't quite ever feelhappy.
You're chasing it by buying a bigger house, anda bigger car, and a bigger this, and I'll feel
happy when this happens, and I'll feel happywhen I get married, and I'll feel happy when I
have kids, and then I'm gonna feel happy when Iget a bigger house.
(23:52):
And they never feel happy.
Yeah.
If you've desensitized your body, this is whereall your emotions are coming from.
You can't ignore some of them.
Some people have had a major trauma, andthey've they've cut themselves off emotionally,
and they're also not happy.
They they do things that foster feeling in thathappy energy, but it's it's shallow.
It's baseless.
You know?
The but they're constantly chasing happy inthat in that case.
(24:15):
It's crazy, man.
There's so many different things that go onthrough a divorce.
Look.
So we've we've talked a lot about, I mean, wewe could do a whole show.
We haven't even talked about, like, kids andhow they're involved.
I mean, we could do a whole other show on this.
But let's let's talk a little bit about, youknow, sticking with the couples here.
We we've talked a lot about, like, leading upto divorce and preparing for divorce and, like,
how couples come to you and they've they theysort, you know, that out and they talk to you
(24:39):
about how they're gonna proceed, talk aboutgoing through divorce and some of the factors
that we we see as as the divorce is unfolding,one of these days, the divorce is gonna be
over.
And that person has to go on.
They have to be able to heal.
They have to remain, you know, financially andemotionally intact.
Right?
So, like, how do you how do you do all thatwhen you're leaving a controlling and toxic
(25:02):
relationship?
What are some of the the things that you coachyour clients on once the dust has settled?
So staying off the battlefield is is fun.
Don't don't get pulled into anything.
Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
Oh my goodness.
You know, of course, it's more complicated whenyou're sharing children because the boundaries
have to be so much different because you'resharing children.
(25:25):
You're co parenting.
If you're co parenting, you kind of need youyou need really, really clear boundaries, and
you need to be parallel parenting almost,rather than co parenting, it can be very
difficult to have agreement.
So we're you're making the best of a badsituation.
Document everything that's important so that itdoesn't get twisted.
(25:45):
Like, don't delete the texts.
If you don't want them on your phone, keep themin some kind of other way.
Don't delete the emails.
Yeah, it's really important to document things,because they will use half truths against you.
They may get mad at you later if you know, itmight be an amicable divorce, but then they see
you with a new partner, and all of a suddenthey're enraged, and they decide to come back
(26:05):
and attack.
Make sure you're ready for that.
I've been attacked.
I've had little random attacks.
You know, I I have an axe who shows up everyfew years online as a as a different fake
person to attack me or attack my partner in inan emotional sort of way, and and and it's just
these weird random attacks that come on throughsocial media, and it takes me a little while to
(26:27):
realize, oh my gosh, I know this is you again,Jeepers.
Are you still there?
You know?
But it's like every time they have anotherbreakup, they come in back and attack the ex.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You you gotta just be ready for that and nottake it personally.
You know?
It's nothing about you.
If if someone's being an asshole to you, it'sabout them.
They are the jerk, not you.
You know?
If someone's that's what goes wrong in these inthese relationships too, because the partner is
(26:51):
blamed, blamed, blamed for all the if someone'snarcissistic, they feel like how they feel is
your fault.
So they come in the house, and you're having abad day.
They may actually make it into a fight, becausesuddenly, they're not feeling great, they're
angry that you're having a bad day.
It's like, what's wrong with you?
And like, oh, I had a really hard day.
Oh, you think you had a hard day?
(27:12):
And then all of a sudden, you're fighting, andyou're like, where did that fight come from?
You don't even know where it came from.
Yeah.
So you have to protect against things likethat.
You know, my ADHD came up and it just sort ofthe train went off the rails.
It does I
I actually dealt with a scenario like likewell, just I'll just share personally.
Right?
So what we had we're we're we're filming thisin the early part of early part of June.
(27:36):
It's graduation time.
Had a graduation last night.
And, you know, we we finally have now get tothe point where, like, the family can all come
together and so on and so forth.
And, like and and it was, you know, veryamicable, and we had a great time and got to
celebrate my son graduating and the wholething.
And grandpa still can't let go of the anger inthis particular and, like, it's like like this
(27:59):
anger just like just like seeps through thewhole family.
Right?
Like, when you're going through a divorce.
So you've gotta, like, be careful of thatbecause some of these boundaries that you're
talking about setting up, like, had there beenbetter boundaries in my own situation, maybe,
like, that anger wouldn't have been able toseep through these other layers of the family.
Like, the son of a bitch wouldn't even shake myhand last night.
I'm like, we've been divorced eight years.
(28:21):
Right?
So it's like like and it's bothersome.
Right?
I'm like, wow.
This is like like and I don't have anythingagainst the guy.
I think he's a yeah.
I think he's a great guy.
He was always amazing to me, but it's like allthese things like, it's just like see it's now
And then and it's hard to unwind that becausethese family members are like they're I don't I
don't even know how to describe this.
(28:41):
I don't even really know.
Maybe my ADHD is kicking in with this.
I don't even know if I have it, but maybe I do.
But, you know, I'm I'm thinking through, like,oh, you're talking about with these boundaries
and, like, how, like, it's so hard to heal andall these things.
And I'm like, I watched my family last night,like, my ex wife and, you where everybody
hugged and she even you know, she's hugging mymy my now wife because I'm since remarried and
the kids are all getting along and this otherstuff.
(29:02):
And then I'm watching, like, the next layer,the next the her stepfather Yeah.
Still is not over this thing.
And it's been, like, eight years.
It's like, what the hell, dude?
Forgiveness is a relationship skill.
It's it's an emotional process.
It's a higher level emotional process.
And he doesn't recognize that when he isfeeling those ugly feelings, he is the one
(29:24):
that's feeling that negative energy in hisbody.
It's not you.
He's feeling anger and nasty person.
He's the one that's in that negative energy.
He's the one that's drowning in that.
That's why forgiveness is important.
It's not for the person over there.
It's because he's producing cortisol.
He's more likely to get cancer.
He's more likely to have a heart attack whenyou're harboring those resentments and those
(29:46):
angers.
We learn to give those things up and acceptthat other people are flawed and not perfect
and that things go wrong, we let those go.
But yeah, he's just living in that ugly statewhen it comes to this, not letting it go.
Probably because he's been unhappily marriedfor twenty five years, but who will?
Mean,
the couple generation before too.
(30:07):
I mean, it it became it became a bad patternbecause honestly, you know, I tell couples who
who are deciding whether or not to stay, theway you treat your wife, is that how you would
like your daughter to be treated later?
The way you're treating your wife now becausethat is the pattern she will follow.
Your daughter is very likely to have a patternwho's gonna treat her the way you were treating
(30:28):
your wife.
Are you proud of how you treat your wife?
Are you you know, do you feel good about theinteraction between you?
If you don't, you should be divorcing becausethose are the patterns you are giving them.
If you if you can't get along
This is an amazing point because I say this allthe time.
Like, I like, the the relationship I have withmy now wife compared to the relationship I have
with my ex wife, it's obvious there's adifference.
(30:50):
Right?
And the kids see it.
And I and that was my biggest thing when I whenI decided I want a divorce.
Was like, I don't want my kids to ever have tofeel the way that I feel.
Right.
Right?
I don't want I want them to recognize that,like, there is a land of happiness out there.
This may not be it for me right now, and thisis gonna hurt.
It's gonna be very bumpy, and and it certainlywas.
But I think, like, you know, like, as they'regetting older, they're they're recognizing
(31:13):
that, you know, I've I've taken myself out ofthat narcissistic relationship.
I've been able to grow, you know, personally,professionally, and all these pieces.
I've become a better dad, I think.
And, you know, I try to be, like, very, like,pragmatic and practical and, like, the steady
ship.
Like, the kid you can hate me.
You cannot like the way that I'm parenting you.
You can do all these things, but I'm gonna be,like, slow and steady.
(31:36):
Right?
And I think and I think, like, even last nightin this experience, my the first thing I
thought of was, you don't have to shake myhand, but you damn you damn bit well better
respect me in front of my kids.
Because I would never disrespect you in frontof their grand I would never disrespect you in
front of them.
Yeah.
So you have that boundary.
So so there's so you know what I'm saying?
So so, like, so I guess, you know, we're alltalking about my personal situation.
(31:59):
It's like, this is not about me, but I'm hopingit's a lesson to people that are listening.
Like, you can set boundaries with not withpeople that, like it doesn't have to be with
just your ex wife or your ex husband or yourex, you know, your ex partner.
Like, it can go the next layer.
Like, you've gotta, like, starts and and Ithought those there was I don't think there was
a reason for those boundaries being in place.
Apparently, they still are.
So, you know, you but I I think the messagehere really is, like, you know, if if you can
(32:22):
focus on the kids and focus on yourself andjust try to be that, like, steady ship in the
night, you know, things will things will allwork themselves out.
Because I'm seeing it firsthand.
Like, the kids are amazing, and they're like,we have a great relationship, and, like, we
text each other, call each other, like, all thestuff.
Right?
But it took a long time to get there because ofsome of the things that were going on behind
these.
And they were growing.
I mean, they're just young kids.
Like, they were, like, feeling their all thefeels about the divorce themselves.
(32:45):
Well, part of the narcissism epidemic we arewatching is truly because couples stayed
together who hated each other too much.
That is part of what went wrong.
You shouldn't begrudge each other every day andstill stay together.
The patterns that is passing along aredisconnected, right?
A narcissist is living in me versus you.
They feel like others are against them, so I'magainst you too.
(33:08):
If that's what you're watching in your parentsbecause they never get along, yeah, it will
create narcissistic ways of being for the nextgeneration.
Naturally, it would.
We learn how to treat each other.
Our our brains are developing.
We're born unfinished.
You know, we we are come into the world.
Our brain is still developing until we're 27.
It's still developing a lot until we're 17, butit's still developing really, really fast until
(33:31):
we're 13.
So, you know, you can pick up a language quiteeasily if you start before 13 because your
brain is laying down so many pathways.
So all those things that happened before you're13, the way your parents are acting together,
that becomes how you see parents are actingtogether, and you don't even know it's anything
different than others.
They might learn it's dysfunctional becausethey see TV, and they see, you know, maybe
(33:52):
families on TV that are getting along.
But they also may think, oh, that's fantasy.
That's not how real people live.
Real people fight every day.
You know, there are lots of people who thinkthat, honestly.
And people come into therapy, and you say, howwas your childhood?
It's almost always, oh, it was okay.
It was average.
And but if they're coming in for therapy, veryoften, it's not actually when we dig into it,
it was normal for you because you grew up withit.
(34:15):
But wow.
And, you know, and that that's a lot of thetherapy is is just being seen in your actual
experience by someone who's witnessing whathappened for you.
And in the case of narcissism, there's often alot of disconnection and a lot of trauma that
really got stored up, that they have developed,like, two versions of themself, you know, the
nice version and this nasty version they gettriggered into.
(34:37):
And this version really is like an angry child,you know, and the wise adult needs to to grow.
And you're talking about your wise adult takingover.
You know, go to this function, you're like,woah.
Look at all this going on, Jeepers.
That's your wise adult, ruling.
You know, and we're we're meant to have ourwise adult be ruling.
We have different parts of ourselves.
Your angry child might get triggered sometimes,but you know your wise adult's the one that's
(34:59):
supposed to take the driving seat.
When it's when it's a narcissist, they forgetabout the wise adult.
That's the thing.
Like like that that father-in-law, he forgetshis wise adult.
The wise adult disappears.
It goes into anger.
And that's just angry child, oh, nasty man.
Nasty.
And that's, you know, that's polarized too,right, seeing you good or bad.
Right?
(35:19):
Not all the shades of gray that Jamie actuallyis, but is bad.
Good.
Like, you know, that's that's that's verynarcissistic.
That was and that's childish.
And all children are narcissistic.
That's where the word was used.
It was used by Freud to describe children'sprocesses.
Now, you know, the world does revolve aroundus.
We we do think that people are there to fillour needs.
(35:41):
We do not have object constancy.
We do forget that mommy's the one we love, andbe like, I hate you, mommy.
You're a bad that's real.
That's normal for kids to do that.
They shouldn't even be punished for it becausethey do lack object constancy, but that's when
we teach them object constancy.
It's not a punishable.
It's a teachable.
It's saying, loves you, and I know you're angryright now, and but we teach them object
(36:03):
constancy.
If they didn't get taught that, if they werejust say, go to your room until you're calm,
they might not learn object constancy Yeah.
Actually.
Like and that's a lot of parenting we've beentaught came from traumatized people.
If you can imagine people coming back from war,granddad came back from war traumatized, but we
didn't know what trauma was fifty years ago orseventy years ago.
(36:23):
And those processes of getting upset andtriggered and avoiding emotions, that was
grandpa for a lot of people.
And he would have been abusive to his wife, andhe would have been detached from his kids, and
he may have drank too much alcohol, or he triedto be good, always trying to be good, trying to
be happy to avoid the trauma, and then, know,making the kids always be happy.
And if the kids come with something serious orbad or it's like, oh, grow up and be a man.
(36:46):
I'm a man.
And that essentially, you know, complex posttrauma stress disorder essentially being passed
to the next generation as if that's that'sparenting.
And that did happen.
That happened a lot.
You know?
Keep calm and carry on was not meant for everyday.
It was just meant for wartime.
And and we took it on.
We took it on as a way of being.
And now we can see it sort of playing out in abig mess.
(37:09):
It really is a big mess all the way around.
And I'd love to have you back and talk moreabout some of this stuff because I think it's
it's incredibly important.
The message is incredibly insightful and andreally just a a unique perspective on some of
the emotional and financial fallout that we seein high conflict divorces.
So, Darren, thanks so much, man, for being withon the show today.
For anyone that is dealing with thecomplexities of a toxic relationship, I really,
(37:32):
really encourage you to to check out more ofDarren's work on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube,
explore some of the remote therapy options thathe has available through his practice.
And as always, if you need financial guidanceor clarity or any support from the financial
side of your divorce, you can head over toallegiantds.com to learn more about how our
team can help and book a complimentary andconfidential call there.
(37:55):
Don't forget to subscribe to more episodes ofBroke Up Not Broken like this and for more
expert advice on empowering conversations.
Until next time.
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