December 23, 2024 • 46 mins
In this impactful episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, Bruce is joined by Ashton Kroner, a Marine Corps veteran and advocate for brain health. Together, they tackle the critical issue of traumatic brain injuries (TBI) and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in veterans and athletes. Ashton opens up about her personal journey with repetitive brain trauma, the stigma surrounding mental health in the military, and the innovative treatments that helped her recover.The conversation highlights the groundbreaking work at the Haley Brain Wellness Program, where Ashton focuses on providing integrative care for veterans suffering from TBIs. Key topics include the importance of vestibular treatment, case management, and community support in long-term recovery, as well as the potential of psychedelics in mental health care. Ashton emphasizes that while brain trauma may feel overwhelming, recovery is possible with the right support and resources.
Join the conversation on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts to learn about innovative solutions in brain health. Don’t forget to like, share, follow, and subscribe to support this vital message!
Tune in now to learn how understanding this vital connection can revolutionize recovery and brain health. Don’t forget to follow, share, like, and subscribe on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts to support this vital conversation!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
05:59 The Stigma of Mental Health in the Military
11:56 Therapeutic Approaches to Recovery
17:50 The Haley Brain Wellness Program
24:54 Understanding Vestibular Health and Treatment
30:27 The Need for Specialized Brain Health Care
40:55 Identifying TBI Symptoms and Accessing Care
Get the Head Smart App Today! Click the link below to download it now!
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Connect with Ashton today!
LinkedIn: Ashton Kroner
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonkroner/
Website: AvalonActionAlliance.org
https://www.avalonactionalliance.org/
Produced by Security Halt Media
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of
Broken Brains with yours trulyBruce Parkman, sponsored by the
Mack Parkman Foundation.
Our show is focused on theissue of repetitive brain trauma
in the forms of repetitive headimpacts and contact sports and
repetitive blast injuries forour veterans, and how these
injuries are affecting ourveterans, our kids, our adult
(00:35):
populations, and how we as asociety don't know much about
the damage that this is causingand why we need the change.
So every week we find the mostamazing set of podcast guests
out there that we bring on theshow to educate you, because our
doctors, our nurses, ourpsychiatrists are not informed
and our veteran administrators,our medical care professionals
(00:56):
for the VA, are not informed ofthis issue, and you must be
educated in order to bestprotect you and the ones you
love.
Today we have another excitingguest on our show Ms Ashton
Kroener.
She served in the Marine Corpsas a field radio operator During
her tour.
She deployed in 2009 in supportof OIF and received orders as a
(01:16):
lioness attached for 1stBattalion, 8th Marines, at
Al-Takadam Air Base.
In 2011, she redeployed to CampLeatherneck in support of OEF
with the 8th CommunicationsBattalion, and then for 2012 and
2015,.
She had the hardest job in themilitary, which is a recruiter.
During her time in service, sheunfortunately suffered multiple
traumatic brain injuries andchronic PTSD that she's dealt
(01:38):
with for years and she's been asignificant part.
She spent a significant part ofher post-military career
dealing with PTSD and findingher path to recovery and into a
full life, and she's beenthrough the Leon J Haley Brain
Wellness Program and she's partof it right now, where she
focuses on these challenges.
So she has turned her serviceinto service for her fellow
(02:01):
veteran operators in order tohelp them regain their quality
of life.
She's completed a bachelor'sdegree from Purdue University,
graduating summa cum laudecongratulations in July 2018,
and got her MBA from Purdue in2021.
No small achievements rightthere.
And she worked at a road homeprogram as outreach manager
(02:22):
prior to joining the Haley BrainWellness Program, and she's now
the Associate Director ofDevelopment at the University of
Florida Health, a Leon J HaleyBrain Wellness Program, which is
where she spends a lot of hertime giving up, and she follows
her time with the Marine CorpsLeague.
Now I've told my producer Idon't want any more Marines on
this darn show, but he keepstelling me he keeps finding you
guys and, of course, we've knowneach other for a long time and,
(02:44):
ashton, honestly, since I'veknown you and I've met you at so
many events and understandingyour commitment to our veteran
corps is unbelievable.
And taking what you have gonethrough and turning that into
servicing our veterans, and thatjust selfless love that comes
out of you is awesome.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself and tell us about these
(03:06):
TBIs that unfortunately got youon this program.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah well, first, thanks for having me.
I always like being able tospend time with you and you know
hearing about all the thingsthat you've been up to.
But so you know a little bitabout me.
I mean, I did serve, you know,obviously, eight years in the
Marine Corps.
You did a wonderful jobrecapping, you know, my life,
but yeah, I served eight yearsin the Marine Corps.
Actually, I grew up in, you know, in small town, texas, kind of
(03:31):
jumped around a little bit, butyou know, I always knew that I
was going to serve the militaryin some sort of, you know,
capacity.
Of course, back then I waswanting to do infantry and
infantry wasn't allowed, youknow, for females.
I wanted to be, you know whereall the action was.
But you know almost didn't jointhe military because I had two
head injuries prior to evenjoining.
You know, one of them, probablymore extreme, was actually an
(03:55):
equine accident where I gotkicked in the back of my head,
so that almost ended.
You know my ability to serveright then and there.
But you know, luckily I wasable to, um, you know, kind of
move past that senior year ofhigh school, you know, diving
accident, swimming and divingteam.
So I had, uh, you know, my, mysecond head injury and you know,
with uh, with that and you knowsome of the common symptoms
(04:16):
that you, you know, that you seeand that you kind of advocate
for Bruce, um, you know, likethat line, sensitivity, poor
concentration, you know, thosetypes of things really kind of
started impacting me then andthere, but I knew I was still
going to serve.
So, uh, senior year I enlistedand to uh, my beloved Marine
Corps, which 249, you know,years this year really excited
about uh next year's celebration.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Happy birthday and nobody's proud of their birthday
.
We can't even get.
I don't even know what the armybirthday is.
No, that's.
That's tragic man.
We don't even have army balls.
What you guys do with yourbirthday is through the roof,
and I do.
I do respect it so much.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh it's, it's great.
You know we always try to sitthere and bring in the other
branches so they get a smalltaste of of what it's like to
really celebrate.
So I might have to invite younext year to one of our, one of
our ceremonies.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, man, All about it.
I've been teaching Marines andNavy SEALs how to drink for 35
years, so you know I'm out ofpractice right now.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
We were born in a bar .
You know Marine Corps.
We were born in a bar.
You can't you can't not Right.
Yeah, no, I love it, yeah, butyeah, no, throughout my military
you know my military experienceyou know I got a lot of really
cool things, you know, startingfrom my first deployment getting
to volunteer as team lioness,um, which, for those that don't
(05:26):
know, that's where, um, youactually get partnered up with a
infantry unit or, you know, asoft unit to be able to, you
know, really gather, you know,intel information and and talk
to the locals, um, you know thatare, uh, that are in country,
and so I did that, for, you know, for a short time, um, and then
, you know, for a short time,and then, you know, went back to
my parent command.
Whenever I actually came backfrom my first first deployment,
(05:47):
we started doing training.
You know training exercisesgearing up for Afghanistan.
I was put into a one of thoseHumvee rollover simulations and,
you know, somebody lost controlof the rifle, you know, side of
the head, which is always agood feeling.
It's interesting about themilitary, though, and I know,
for those that have served, youknow, you always kind of hear
those words malingering and suckit up, and you know all those
(06:09):
things, and so I was reallyworried about, you know, how
that would impact my militarycareer, and so I was sitting
there, you know utilizing, um,you know really a lot of
self-medication, you know, andin regards to you know kind of
treating, you know, my, my headinjury, and it wasn't working.
I mean what you know military,they would sit there and
prescribe you those 800milligrams of ibuprofen and and
everything, and I was takingthree or four of those Ranger
candies is what we call them.
(06:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and they'retaking like three or four of
those at a time, you know, goingwell past the, uh, the dosage,
um, you know, just to be able tosee straight again.
But, yeah know, I mean again,learning from a different
country is always exciting.
But, um, got bored, starteddoing my um, mixed martial arts,
(06:53):
trying to get my black belt,and, you know, got thrown
shoulder, thrown across the room.
Uh, another training accidentwhich, uh, you know, honestly,
like all my head injuries, seemto be more accidents than actual
big catastrophic things thatyou see in the movies.
But, yeah, so I mean, aftergetting out of the military, I
(07:13):
mean I struggled.
I mean I think a lot of storiesthat I encounter are people
struggling, silently, strugglingat that, and so, for me, I
really wanted to be able to.
Once I got past my initialissues, got diagnosed with PTSD
and my TBI, I started gettinghelp, like I wanted to be able
to help others, and that'sexactly, you know, kind of what
drove me into the work that I'mdoing now is me.
(07:34):
It's all about preventionversus intervention, because it
came down to the point where Ialmost needed intervention to be
able to help get me back on myfeet in a good place.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So I want to be able to do the same thing for others.
So tell us about you know backthen, because we, you know, I
talked to a lot of vets andactually I was just at a, a
closed session on brain healthwith the military and um, you
know, the stigma keeps coming up, like you talk about you know
getting, you know, your, your,your TBIs from.
You know, training, um,regardless how you get them in
the military, you, you know,when you get them, military kind
of owns these, cause youwouldn't have been in a Humvee
(08:09):
rollover and you wouldn't betrying to get your black belt,
Cause you got to stay sane inthese combat zones, because
otherwise you just eat.
Because there's food everywhere, right, you're working out or
you're on mission, right, butyou talk about not wanting to
talk about your head injury.
So talk about the stigma and um, and what you know, what it is
about the military, cause I'velived it, you know we you don't
(08:35):
talk.
You don't talk about when yourankles twisted.
You don't talk about anythingman, that that could, you know,
show weakness, right, andespecially when it comes from up
here, because then you startlooking at not being able to do
your job and the military takesit weird.
So back then, which was not along time ago, but it was still
a different military than it isnow when it looks at mental
health, what were yourchallenges?
You know understanding that.
Hey man, I've got.
(08:56):
You know, I've had two TBIs,you know pretty severe ones.
You know whatever your symptomswere.
But I'm just going to suck itup.
Why didn't you go to yourcommand?
So and so Well.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I think there was a couple of reasons that you know
at play.
One I was worried about, youknow, the stigma surrounding,
like you know, my servicemembers, cause we had and I
think females specifically havea really hard time, you know, on
on that Cause you have some,you know, at least during my
service, you know you had somefemales that you know we're
trying to get out of.
You know, deploying, and Inever that was never me I always
wanted to go on deployment, um,I'd sit there and volunteer for
(09:31):
everything, and so I was reallyworried about that stigma of
you know I'm just going to be akind of like a, you know, a
deadbeat basically, or amalinger.
You know I just didn't want tobe labeled like that.
And it starts with the command.
You know just that, thattoxicity, you know we would
always sit there and cause I wasat Camp Lejeune and so the side
floor, I believe, was on thefourth floor, and so they were
like oh, if you go to the fourthfloor, you know you're going to
(09:58):
see the wizard, you know you'llnever come back.
And so there's that fear too.
You know, like when mean therewas that.
You know that worry that it wasgoing to impact my ability to
do my job.
You know it was going to impacthow others perceive me.
And then there was the fact oflike what, if this is actually
serious, you know, and thiscould actually just in my
military career in general, andso, you know, for me it was
easier just to kind of suck itup and not talk about it.
(10:20):
Now I will say that I know thatthere are other, you know that
there were others around me thatwere kind of seeing a little
bit of shift, especially with myhusband.
You know we had been dating atthe time Actually, no, we just
got married and you know he wasstarting to see that shift.
My parents have been talkingabout seeing that shift, and so
those that were like that knewme prior to my first deployment
versus, you know.
(10:40):
Now you know they got to seethat the start and shifts in my
personality and how I wasperceiving things.
I was doing things a little bitmore riskier than others, but
then I always chopped it up to.
Well, I'm a Marine, marines dorisky things, we do dumb
decisions, and so for me I wasalways just trying to prove that
(11:02):
there was nothing wrong, that Icould be just as better, or you
know, just as good, if notbetter, than you know those that
I was serving with and you knowit seems to always have a
competition between the malesand the females.
You know, to prove who wasbetter.
And you know, like I said, Ithat's why you know joined Team
Lioness and you know I wasvolunteering for everything that
I could.
They just kept on sending me tothe desert.
You know, every time Ivolunteered to go on a meal or
(11:23):
something, but it was just agood I mean, I was like it was.
It was a good experience, butat the same time I could see how
that impacts my health.
You know, today I wish I, Iwish there were things I'd done
differently when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And, and so do you think you could have you would
have approached this problem inthe same command environment a
little bit differently than Imean.
Cause you did say you were, youwere medicating, and we all
deal with, you know, medicationa lot of times to deal with our,
our, our, our mental health and, um, were you ever like
diagnosed?
Did you ever get a brain scanor you know, or did you just eat
(11:59):
it until you got out and thendecided to get help?
Is that pretty much the course?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So it was interesting .
So I think it was in between, Ithink it was in between
deployments, like right before Iwas like deploying to
Afghanistan, they actually did ascan and a memory test to see
how you know, kind of like mybaseline, which I find really
ironic because my baseline, youknow, prior to my first
deployment is really where thatshould have been happening, or
really even before then at maps.
You know, whenever you go to,you know, unless that, you know
(12:26):
that should be a standardizedyou know, just because of all
the training accidents thatoccur, to include even going
through recruit training.
So for me I think that you know, kind of looking back on you
know, like my thing, like youknow, like with my first head
injury in the military, you knowthere was a corpsman on scene
but I was downplaying everything.
Again, we're getting ready todo a you know deployment.
(12:48):
We had already lost, you know,one of our service members on
the first half of the deployment.
You know we were thereplacement and so you know I
was really worried about youknow, like, oh, people are going
to sit there and think that youknow, I don't want to.
You know, go because it's moredangerous.
You know deployment or, um,just trying to get out of it.
And so I sat there and I talkedto the form and I'm like, no,
I'm fine, despite me beingknocked out.
(13:09):
Um, I mean, I lostconsciousness for for a few
seconds and you know theyclearly saw.
I mean all the signs were therethat I had a confession.
And you know they took me atface value and you know kind of
left, and I ended up going backa couple of days later, you know
, complaining of migraines, andso they gave me ibuprofen and
you know I'm sitting therepopping that like candy, like
(13:33):
Tic Tacs and all that, and, andyou know, nothing was really
happening.
And when I was on deployment,you know again, deployment is
very, very different.
You know experience.
So you know we were.
You know we had a corpsman onscene, you know, for any type of
, you know, training in regardsto the mixed martial arts, and
so we had somebody on, you knowat least in our unit that were
able to, you know, be therewhenever I you know what I got
thrown.
I got my bell wrong a little biton that one too, cause I
remember just being dizzy and Iwas worried about being sent
(13:57):
home, you know, despite me notwanting to be there, you know, I
was like, yeah, I'm ondeployment, I'm having a good
time, but you know, I also missbeing home with my family and
that probably would have been myticket, you know, home.
But I was so worried againabout that stigma and so I just,
you know, again I sucked it upuntil after I got out of the
military and even then, likewhen I first got out of the
military, I didn't go, you know,I didn't claim, uh, you know
PTSD or you know TBI, becauseone I didn't know what a
(14:21):
traumatic brain injury was, Ididn't know what post-traumatic
stress was.
You know, all I know is that ifyou go and talk to somebody
about mental health, you'remessed up.
You know, and I just, again, Ididn't want that label, I was
afraid of it.
It wasn't until, um, you know,I was, you know, really starting
to see the struggle at my home,the family at this point, you
know, impacting my daughter andeverything, and I was like, all
right, fine, I'll go talk tosomebody.
(14:48):
And that's whenever I had areally great therapist, um, to
start off with.
And you know, she refused toeven like, you know, tell me
what my label is.
She was just working on thetrauma, you know, just working
on, you know, the things that Iwas complaining on, going on the
symptoms and you know, like sheknew what my you know my
diagnosis was, but I didn't knowabout it for the first like
year, year and a half, of megetting treatment, because, you
(15:08):
know, it's just not somethingthat we talked about, because
that made it important for me.
It's like I don't want to havea label associated with my name,
knowing in my medical record,you know.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I was labeled at that point.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But to me that was down, you know, ssris, ssnis,
benzos and all that.
Or was it more therapy?
Or did she prescribe anythingout of the box medication?
You know, I didn't wantanything to do with medication.
I wanted to keep my you knowlike my hormone levels the same.
I didn't want to have anyissues with you know like cause.
I know a lot of people weresitting there talking about how
tired they felt or, you know,feeling like they were hung over
, and I didn't want any of that.
So we actually started off withEMDR and I wasn't a fan.
(15:58):
I told her.
I was like I don't, I don'tlike EMDR, I don't like anything
about this.
It wasn't working for me.
Um, so then we just kind ofswitched over just to talk
therapy, you know, and then it,I mean it was nice, but I just
felt like I was alwayscomplaining.
I always sit there and useeveryday life, you know, like my
work, my job, you know, my boss, my husband, my kids, you know.
And we just weren't goinganywhere.
(16:19):
And she was like you needevidence days, you know, maybe
evidence-based, you know, maybenot EMDR.
So she actually did a cognitiveprocessing therapy with me to
start, and so the CPT.
I'm a big fan of cause I andand very black and white
whenever it comes to getting youknow, getting treated.
Either it works or it doesn'twork.
And you know having like that.
(16:40):
I used to watch a lot of lawyershows growing up too, and so
that's how she compared CPT withme.
She was like you're basically alawyer and you're trying to
combat your um, your symptoms,you know, and why you feel the
way that you feel and why that'snot your fault.
Um, and I really liked that.
You know I was like okay.
So I mean I was just sittingthere always putting a case in
my head and a lot of the timesmy husband would look at me and
he's like what are know whatever?
You know whatever was going on.
And then you know after, youknow I would say after about a
(17:00):
year or so you know she hadactually brought up, you know
like some of the symptoms thatI've been seeing, you know like
having she was like you knowthere might be more, you know
going on here, and I had nevereven brought up that I had had
multiple head impacts, you know,and you know I'd never, you
(17:20):
know it was never mentioned anyof it and she was like, have you
ever been, you know, diagnosedwith a or not that, but assessed
for a TBI?
And I was like I don't know whatthat means, you know.
So we started doing theassessments and, you know,
realized pretty quickly that,you know, I just based on my
symptoms that you know I had aTBI going on.
So then, you know, it kind ofshifted over to more of like
speech language.
For, you know, like my memoryyou're called my memory was
(17:44):
garbage back then, still is, butnot nearly as bad as it as it
was and and it was, you know,thankfully, you know, because of
her, I was able to really get,you know, get an understanding
of what was going on and why itwas impacting my family so much.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
That's, yeah, I mean, and that's something that you
know, as at least she was tryingto explore.
You know some of thosedifferent, you know therapies
and and, and give you a pathahead, Because you know, you
know the usual option is here'sa bag of drugs, you know, and,
and you know here's some therapy, and we know that doesn't work.
And obviously let's, let's,let's change.
(18:19):
Shift now to what you're doingnow.
I mean, you're working withveterans.
You're, um, you're working withtheir brains, which is amazing
because this is the mostunaddressed issue when it comes
to mental health, because we're,we're not aware that the brain
health, the brain, you know, youknow the, the, the, the
physical brain health.
Also, you know it can impactmental, mental health, right,
(18:42):
Impact mental illness, and wedon't address the brain as an
organ.
So tell us about, um, the HaleyInstitute that you're working
at right now.
And how did you get there?
Like, you just apply for a joband get it?
I mean, you have a MBA, right,You're not actually in the
social welfare space, so how didyou get over there?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah.
So my husband and I, we wereactually up in Illinois and you
know, he, he actually ended upand he's good now, but he had
testicular cancer and so the youknow like just the weather from
, uh, you know, going throughchemo and everything really was
impacting, just like how hisbody regulation was.
And so we're like you know whatwe like Florida, let's just
move to Florida.
And so, um, I I gave my uh, nowold boss, uh, like basically a
(19:28):
four month notice and I'm like,hey, I'm leaving in May.
I was like I'll say, you knowI'll stay for this, but you know
I'll be gone.
We're moving to Florida.
Hottest time of the year reallyto start moving to Florida there
was really, but anyways, it wasgreat, great, you know, great
opportunity for us.
And so, um, I only applied fortwo jobs actually, one was when
to warrior project, um, and thenthe other, I mean, I just kind
of put in veterans, um, you know, in the Jacksonville area.
(19:50):
So I'm in Jacksonville, florida, and um, the TBI center, you
know, you know, came up.
And so, um, I started reading alittle bit about it.
It's a new, it was a newerprogram, but it was under the
Avalon Action Alliance, whichhas been around for years now,
and it's a collaborative ofhospitals that um assess and
treat military veterans of anyera, of any discharge status, um
(20:11):
, regardless of they can pay ornot.
So, very similar to the workthat I was doing.
Um, and they needed adevelopment officer, and so I
hadn't really done too much workin the, in the fundraising, um,
you know, at the time, and so I, I put my hat in for the ring
and I was like, you know, I,I've done some fundraising, but
not much.
Most of my stuff is communityoutreach on the national level.
And so, um, they, uh, you knowthey interviewed me and, um, you
(20:34):
know, I hadn't heard from them,you know, for for a few weeks
and I'm like, ah, you know, I, II don't think I got the job and
you know, I'd already, you know, said no to Wounded Warrior
Project, so I was like we'rejust going to start our own
business.
So when we moved here, um, youknow, I, we, I get a call from
my now boss offering me aposition.
So everything kind of, you know, aligned really well.
(20:56):
But you know, my role, myfunction, is to fundraise and,
you know, spread awareness forveterans and first responders
that are, you know, not reallysure what's going on, you know,
with their brains, but they havesymptoms that you know, some of
the same symptoms that I youknow that I was always sitting
there talking about and you knowthat I was always sitting there
talking about.
And you know what we do is wetake an integrative care, you
(21:16):
know, approach to our veterans.
So if somebody comes up to meand says, hey, you know I heard
you talk and you know I havesome of those symptoms that you
were mentioning but I don't knowhow to get, you know, get
started, I help them get startedinto the program and it and it
just basically goes off of youknow what, what their needs are,
what their symptoms are.
Does the three?
You know we start off with athree-day assessment and what's
(21:37):
really unique about it is, youknow the patient is centered.
You know, first and foremost,they come in and they talk to
our core providers.
You know our speech, language,pathology, our psychiatrists,
our neurologists I mean allthese doctors are in one room
together, which is not a commonoccurrence in any medical
practice and the patient tellstheir story.
(21:58):
One time they say you know,either I've had multiple head
traumas or maybe I've had oneinstance, but these are my
symptoms and then over the nextcouple of days they're getting
follow-on appointments to get agood understanding of what's
going on and then from there wemake recommendations on you know
, one, what their injury is andtwo, you know how best to treat
it.
Sometimes we need to have themgo back into the community for
(22:18):
more tests.
Other times, you know, we getthem linked right up to our
intensive outpatient program.
So on top of those core, youknow providers that you know
they meet with we also take anintegrative therapy approach.
So we include acupuncture forpain, mindfulness, art therapy,
music therapy.
We have canine and equineprogramming, walking equine
program, no writing, but youknow, at the same time, you know
(22:41):
they're taking more of that.
You know regular approach thatyou see in a lot of, you know,
either inpatient or intensiveoutpatient programs.
You know in regards tobehavioral health and
neurological you know help.
So there's a lot that'shappening during, you know,
during that three-week timeframeand what we're realizing is
that the evidence is showing areduction, and a drastic
reduction, in TBI symptoms.
So we know the program isworking and I have the honor of
(23:05):
being able to, you know,fundraise to make sure that our
program is going to continue foryears to come.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Now are you, beyond the therapies that are doing,
what are you doing to addressbrain health?
Are you doing HBOT?
You're doing TMS, you knowphotobiomodulation, any of the
electronic therapies out there?
Oh sorry go ahead.
Yeah, no, no, keep going.
And I got to follow up.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So you know, all of our, all our stuff is we have a
very like, we're very physicaltherapy focused and so some of
the machines that we're using isour appropriate on our bird
tech.
Our bird tech machine isactually virtual reality and
there's platelets that you knowthat the individual is standing
on, and so they actually partnerreally well with speech,
(23:52):
language pathology, on memoryretention as well.
So you might be driving a carstanding on this, platelets in
your harness stand, of course,and so while the PT, you know,
and it's a physical therapyneurologist, so it's our
neurological physical therapistthat's working with us.
So specifically for the brain,and what they're doing is
they're running you throughsimulations and then they might
(24:13):
be saying, okay, what color wasthat light that you just, you
know, walked, or that you justdrove by, you know.
So it links in that speech,language pathology as well, and
we're able to, you know,basically, look, check their
vestibular system, you know, andtreat their vestibular, you
know.
So for those that you know passout easy, and actually quite a
(24:40):
few of the individuals that comethrough our program, you know,
don't complain of, you know,vertigo they're not really
complaining of, you know,passing out because they, you
know we're, we're accustomed,you know, just as humans you
know, to sit there and not putourselves in situations where
you know it's going to aggravatethose symptoms.
Same thing like you roll yourankle, what are you going to do?
You're going to have crutches.
You know you're going to sitthere and you know, basically,
put your feet off the, you know,off the floor on that.
In that sense, people do thesame thing for the vestibular
system and so we purposely putthem in a system to be able to,
(25:03):
um, I don't want to use the wordaggravate, but you know
physical therapy, um, you know alot of people with head
injuries.
You know they, theyautomatically tense up and so if
you're constantly in that tenseor that what we call our hyper
aroused state, um, it's going tobe causing a lot of other pain,
(25:23):
um, pain issues, you know,basically from your jawline
going all the way down to yourtoes, and so, um, the proprio is
able and along with ourphysical, just our entire
physical therapy team uses thatin order to be able to, you know
, treat your, you know basicallyrelearning how to walk again,
how to move, how to stand, howto sit in a correct fashion, so
you're not aggravating whereit's going all the way up to the
(25:44):
pain receptors in your brain.
So there's a lot that'shappening, you know, in our
clinic.
But whenever it comes to someof the other treatment, you know
modalities that are out there.
We're really focused on thosetwo aspects as of right now.
But research is amazing and wedo have a research team that's
looking at other modalities aswell.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Okay, and do you partner with other clinics, like
if these veterans you know wantto, because you know the issue
we have with the brain is wereally don't know how to treat
the brain.
All we can do is just take, asyou know, give it as much of a
challenge as we can give it andtry to help it heal.
So do you work with or partnerwith other service providers
(26:23):
that you can refer you knowveterans to?
If they, you know if they wantto try these other modalities to
continue to improve theirhealth, because once they leave
your care, if they're not local,then basically their access to
that care when they go back isover, right?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Correct.
Yeah, so we do have a casemanagement team and an alumni
program as well.
So the alumni program, you knowwe are, we offer that, you know
, in a hybrid model.
So for those that are local,they can come in person, we
share a meal, we go over somemore, you know, treatment
modalities, check-ins, thosetypes of things.
But then, you know, for thosethat are, you know, maybe out of
(27:01):
state or too far of a drive,you know we offer that virtually
as well, so they can continueto have access to our clinic,
really for the life of theprogram.
Now, in regards to, you know,follow on care, because we are,
you know, obviously an intensiveoutpatient program, you know
we're focused on that three weekmodel and then sending them
back into the community we havea phenomenal case management
(27:21):
team that tailors their needsbased on whatever it is that's
going on in their life.
And so the clinical team comestogether and, you know, in their
discharge plan which I knowsome of those can be pretty
daunting, they actually make itreally easy to read and just a
couple of papers and everybodyis sent home, you know, with
that, but in their casemanagement folder and they meet
(27:42):
multiple times throughout theIOP and then also during the
three-day evaluation as well.
But during that timeframe we'refiguring out exactly what their
needs are.
It can be anything from likefinancial to recreational, to
maybe continuation of carethrough a clinical, and so we,
we do a lot of assessing andthen, you know, giving all that
(28:02):
information over to the veteran.
Now it's up to them to be ableto reach out to them.
But we have quite a fewcollaborative part.
Our own city's partners aregoing to be careful of that.
University of Florida might beupset, but we do collaborate
with so many differentorganizations in order to be
able to have that.
You know that continuation ofcare, Because you know what's
great about these programs isthat they're able to really get
(28:24):
you to a point where we'reimproving their life.
But if they don't keep up withthat just like going to the gym
if you don't keep working onthose muscles, you're going to
go right back to where you werebefore.
And so we you know that thatcase management team really is
pivotal in in our program.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Okay.
So if they, if they do get, youknow, if they do good at equine
therapy, they have to go buy ahorse when they go back to the
country.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I mean they have the space.
Absolutely no, we go find ahorse right.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
No, and that's the point that we're trying to make
is we do not have a scalableapproach to brain health right
now.
Like it's all you know, it'sall specialist and specialized
training.
That is not something that youcan find in the.
You know outside, you know inrural country or even in larger
cities, there's these you knowsmall networks of clinics.
And why is you know brainspecialized healthcare when we
have such an enormous TBI issue,like we have 2.8 million TBIs
(29:21):
in America?
Right, we've got, you know,we've got over 160,000 dead
veterans.
Okay, none of them that, in ouropinion, have been assessed for
their brain health and theimpact on their careers.
We still have to address thatissue.
And yet we find that oursuicide rates are not dropping,
because we personally feel insome cases is that we're not
(29:42):
looking at brain health, we'renot associating brain health
with mental illness and mentalillness with suicide.
We're doing the mental illnesswith suicide thing, but we're
treating mental illness inoutpatient with therapy and
drugs and a lot of these peoplearen't finding you.
I mean, what's your throughputa month?
How many veterans are?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
you seeing a month new veterans?
Um, so we have the capacity for, uh, you know about a hundred,
110, maybe at our clinic for theIOP, um, you know cause we, we
have our, you know our three-dayassessment.
That's, I mean, that's constant, you know.
I mean there's a I thinkthere's only a handful of weeks
in the entire year, like aroundChristmas and Thanksgiving and
such that we're not seeinganybody in clinic and that's our
(30:22):
admin, you know our admin time.
But we have a pretty steady,you know, sense of veterans or
veterans and first responderscoming through our program, and
so I think and I'll have to sitthere and check on the numbers,
but I want to say it's likeclose to 250 or 300 that we have
through our doors for ourthree-day evaluation.
And then that IOP, it's veryspecialized and we keep them in
(30:43):
smaller cohorts, you know.
So they have a way to be.
And I say smaller, about 10veterans per cohort can come
through and get treated, youknow, and it's three weeks, it's
one, you know, once a month.
Um, that that we're seeing, youknow, seeing these individuals,
and so, um, you know, for forus, and I and I get it a lot,
you know, like, what's greatabout, you know, working under
the Avalon Action Alliance isthat we're one of seven clinics
(31:06):
in the nation and we're growing.
Um, so Bernie Marcus and ArthurBlank they're the founders of
Home Depot, they're the onesthat really kind of brought us
all together and their vision,well, and Bernie Marcus, their
vision was to have a clinic inevery state and that's what
we're working on is we'reworking on having a TBI clinic
specialized with veterans andfirst responders, meaning our
providers are specially trained,you know, to understand.
(31:30):
You know some of the challengesthat are, you know that
community faces, you know, andso you know, so we're able to
really target specifically thataudience.
And as for how people arehearing about us a lot of it's
word of mouth, but our communityengagement going to events.
The problem is, is a lot ofveterans that are really needing
our services.
(31:50):
They self-isolate, they'restaying at home or maybe they're
working full-time.
They have families, so theywork, they go home, they cook
dinner, they go to bed and theydo it all over again, and then
weekends they're going to littleJohnny or Susie soccer practice
or you know whatnot.
So I mean it's really hard toget in front of some of these
individual that could reallybenefit from our service, and so
, you know, doing podcasts andonline marketing has really been
(32:13):
helpful in getting people to us, and if our wait times get, you
know, pretty long, I mean wehave a network that we could sit
there and refer to.
So you know we partnered with,you know right now, like I said,
six other TBI clinics and ifour numbers get low, we'll refer
over to them.
So there's not going to be along wait list for our community
.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
No, and that's the point is that there shouldn't be
a wait list, right, and it'snot your job to to to address
the entire veteran population,these, you know, brain health is
not part of any.
It's starting to be, but if youlook at all the veterans that
have left the service in thelast 20 years of war and before
that, you know, when I left,nobody talked about brain health
(32:54):
, right, nobody talked about,hey, have you had TBIs, man, I
had been shot in the face.
That's why I'm so ugly.
You know I've been.
You know I've been blown.
I've been around so manyexplosions.
I've woken up, you know,unconscious, on so many rugby
fields as a military rugbyplayer, unconscious on so many
rugby fields as a military rugbyplayer, right, it's like, yeah,
I've had some.
I didn't even know what a TBIwas, right, and so I'm like, all
(33:18):
right, how do we, you know, andhow do we scale this?
And this is, you know, numberone.
I'd love to know more about theAvalon Alliance and your
founders there, because we havea concept for a larger program,
right, a program, a record, thatneeds a lot of attention right
now.
But the number one gap thatwe're trying to fill is number
one is awareness, right, do Ihave a problem?
And then awareness andeducation in the military side,
(33:39):
because the specific treatmentsthat you provide should not be
unique just to your organization, right, this should be part of
any hospital.
That, because TBI is TBI andwith the VA we shouldn't just
have just TBI centers, we shouldhave the VA should be aware of
this.
Like I go to my clinic here inBradenton, florida, tbi right, I
(34:00):
mean, they know of it but theyhave no idea.
They don't say I go in there.
It's like man, you know, how'syour libido, how's your health,
what's your cholesterol?
Maybe you're going to ask aboutbrain health.
My doctor looks at me.
Why would I ask you about brainhealth?
Like, well, I've been in fourdifferent combat zones.
I mean just kind of wondering.
But you know to your point youshouldn't have to skip.
Let me throw another question inthere.
(34:21):
So psychedelics, okay,psychedelics is a very, very big
part of the fringe of, or thefrontier, I think, of healthcare
.
We are seeing, especiallypeople in very, very acute
(34:41):
stages of suicidal ideation orvery, very pronounced mental
illness in forms of very, verydeep, deep depression, that
we're seeing significantimprovements with the use of
psychedelics.
How do you as obviouslysomething that you do not.
You know it's not one of themodalities you leverage.
Do you refer out, or you know,how does the you personally, how
(35:03):
do you feel about it?
Or how does the you know, howdo we get?
I mean, is there anyinteraction on the psychedelics
from your organization?
Do you refer out the clinics,or you know where veterans are
beyond the needs right now?
They're like they're just atthe end of the road.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
So yeah, so, man, I wish our medical director was
still here.
So he was actually a Dixonpsychiatrist, you know, and you
know years and years in themilitary as a pilot and then he
ended up becoming a psychiatristfor the army and so you know
he's able to to really sit thereand hone in on this
conversation Officially.
You know, our, our clinicobviously doesn't, you know, do
(35:42):
anything with psychedelics.
Now we do have quite a fewveterans coming through our
programming and they sit thereand they talk about, you know,
how psychedelics has impactedthem there.
You know we obviously encouragethat conversation.
Now, you know, from from thatstance, I really can't talk, you
know.
Talk about it from, you knowbut from my personal, you know,
stance.
(36:02):
I mean I did the staley ganglionblock and that changed my life.
You know, like I, I thought,you know, I was just kind of
going through like downwardspiral and being able to pair
that with an evidence basedtreatment, I mean complete game
changer, you know.
I mean I went from you knowhaving, you know, flashbacks and
nightmares and you know allsorts of different things you
know really impacting my qualityof life, to not having nearly
(36:26):
any.
I mean I can't.
I mean especially immediatelyfollowing, you know, my, my
injection.
I mean I.
I mean I mean especiallyimmediately following, you know,
my, my injection.
I mean I.
I mean I was a completelydifferent person.
So I mean I, I can't sit thereand say enough about it, and I
know that, dr Lippo aboutChicago he's done a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
He did mine too.
Yeah right, yeah, he'sfantastic.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
I absolutely adore him you know, but like for for
them, like he, he and ShaunaSpringer out in California I
mean, she's a big advocate forit and so, um, I, I know for me
personally and quite a fewveterans you know we can sit
there and have thoseconversations.
You know, offhand I'd like, hey, it saved my life.
Officially, university ofFlorida is probably going to sit
there and you know I'd be likewhat the heck Ashton should be
(37:10):
something that you know a lot ofproviders should be looking at.
I know Rush University MedicalCenter in Chicago they've done
some trials with SGB and what isit pairing it with?
Like one week of CPT and youknow they saw some really,
really promising results.
So it's becoming more prevalentin the medical community.
I think there was such again,there's that word stigma.
You know there is that stigma.
(37:30):
Yeah, there was such again,there's that word stigma.
You know, there is that stigma,yeah.
So I think, if used correctlyand under the guidance of a
doctor, I think it canrevolutionize, you know,
revolutionize the, you know, thebrain health, you know, and the
TBI world.
Same thing with post-traumaticstress as well.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
That's where I think SGBs come in For our audience.
The stately ganglion blocks isan outpatient procedure where
they basically lidocaine theganglion nerve centers on both
sides of your neck one side orboth sides depending on the
perceived level of trauma.
This is not a psychedelictreatment sometimes done in
conjunction with ketamine orother psychedelic treatments but
(38:10):
basically it allows a veteranthat's been exposed and first
responders to a lot of fight orflight Like you're turned on.
We see this with our NFLplayers where you're
hypervigilant, you're turned onall the time.
Your fight or flight mechanismhas never been shut.
So we're seeing people likeAshton and myself that have
decades of being turned onfinally being able to relax
(38:31):
because this procedure shutsthat fight or flight mechanism
down.
It's been used successfullywith a lot of first responders,
a lot of special operationspeople.
So we do see that's one ofthose operations that's coming
into the mainstream along with,you know, the utilization of
psychedelics that you know whenwe have, you know, people that
are not responding to CBT orequine therapy or other, we have
(38:54):
to.
That's what we're looking atopening up the band.
Open up our you know ourblinders here, because you know
for you, for your organization,Ashton, to partner with other
organizations.
That's part of opening theseblinders.
What do you have?
Because in the end we have aveteran that's hurting and if I
can't help them with what I got,what can you do for them?
(39:16):
And it's not like it's notinsulated, right, we are a
community and for you to be ableto refer out and work with
other providers and have thatopen approach to mental health
is so powerful and very, verycompelling.
So, you know, tell us a littlebit more.
(39:37):
How do people find you?
Let's dive into the Avalon hereas we close out.
How do people get a hold of you?
Let's talk about this.
So, first, you know what arethe symptoms, right?
So say I'm a wife, right?
Or a husband of a spouse who'sbeen in the military, like I got
married after I left the armyafter 20 years, right, how do I
(39:59):
know if my loved one is struck?
Say they've been in themilitary.
I've talked to so many wives.
You know that.
Oh, I know my husband was amaster breacher.
He got blown up.
I talked, you know, and likehe's they drag him over.
It's like you need to talk tohim, right, because once you
start explaining what thesesymptoms are, they might think
it's them.
Hey, I'm ugly, or you don'tlike me no more, or you know, or
(40:22):
you're an alcoholic, and no,it's up here, man.
So talk to educate our audienceon you know, you know on on TBI
related symptoms, so they canunderstand that sometimes it's
not their childhood, it's notyou know the fact that they saw
bodies, or it could be that theysaw dead bodies, you know.
But these are some of thesymptoms that you should be
watching out for.
And then how do they find youso they can get evaluated,
(40:43):
diagnosed and treated.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Absolutely.
Now I will say for the spousesor the significant others or
those that are not the veteran,All right, If any of these kind
of come up, don't be sittingthere immediately going over to
your veteran being like.
I heard Ashton and Brucesitting there talking.
That's not what I'm doing.
This is just the education Allright, yeah, and then you know
for those that have had injuries, like, hey, if some of these
(41:07):
are, you know, on your you knowlike, you know kind of things
that you're you know gettingplagued with, like, know that
there's treatment for you.
You do not have to live likethis.
For the longest time I thoughtthat this was normal about being
in the military, like, oh yeah,my body's going to just mess up
and I'm going to have to livewith it.
No, you don't.
So, with that being said,probably the biggest one that I
get is sleep disturbance.
(41:28):
That is, hands down,everybody's always talking about
.
You know, I have really poorsleep, that noise sensitivity as
well, especially those withyoung kids, you know, and they
have the TV up a little loud ormaybe like that, just high pitch
noise and all of a sudden yougot that tinnitus going on.
You know that noise sensitivityis really a big thing that we
hear.
But then you go into, like, theanxiety.
(41:49):
You know the depression, youknow, maybe, some forgetfulness,
you know headaches.
Headaches are very, very common.
Um, and then you can look at,like, coordination difficulties
If you're having difficultybalancing, um, that nausea,
light sensitivity I should haveprobably said that one as well.
Light sensitivity is is huge,um, you know, if you happen to
constantly have the lightsdimmed in the office uh, you
(42:10):
know, that's a, that's a big oneand then, slow thinking, if you
have a hard time being able toremember that, where it's like
crap, what, what am I looking?
You know what am I sittingthere trying to remember?
These are all things that arethat are treatable, you know,
and and you don't have to sitthere and, you know, just
constantly live like this.
So if any of those are yoursand that's not an exhaustive
(42:30):
lift those are just the mostcommon ones that we see in our
clinic.
But if this is something thatyou're, you know, kind of
getting plagued with, you know Iwould reach out to the Avalon
Action Alliance.
So you can just GoogleA-V-A-L-O-N Action Alliance and
it'll bring you to, you know,our homepage and, like I said,
(42:52):
I'm one of seven TBI clinics andI know that, bruce, you have
very far reaching uh community.
So, um, they see veterans allacross the nation, puerto Rico,
uh, you know, just all over andwhat they're doing is they're
reducing, um, those barriersinto care.
So if you're having difficultywith, like, your insurance, um,
that's not a problem.
You know, airfare, lodging food, all of that is going to be
covered under a grant.
(43:12):
So all you have to do is beable to just Google, go online
and say, hey, I'm having thesedifficulties, and then somebody
from one of the clinics willgive you a call.
It's usually based on yourgeographic location and then,
you know, it starts the process.
It's a self-referral process,so you know.
Again, that's Avalon ActionAlliance.
If you're specifically wantingto come see me in my clinic, you
(43:36):
can just give us a call andthat number is 904-244-3289.
Again, that's 904-244-3289.
You know, and this is just likeI said, it's so easy to be able
to get help and for and for me,speaking from somebody that has
experienced that you know camevery close to you know,
basically losing their familyover just these issues that are
(43:57):
infeasible treatable right I'mnot going to say you're going to
get cured, but can you gettreated so you can have a better
quality of life?
I mean, why wouldn't you?
What's you know?
Speaker 1 (44:09):
and can you get diagnosed.
We understand that these issuesare not you going crazy.
They're the result of yourmilitary service or it could be
result those dang horses cause,like they're the third leading
causing incursions in America.
A lot of people don't know that, right.
I mean, more people go to thehospitals because these darn
horses than anything.
But you know we don't ride themin the army anymore, right, but
(44:32):
you know we don't ride them inthe army anymore, right, but you
know.
But that's the whole point isthat a lot of our veterans are
suffering in silence andtherefore their families are
suffering in silence because ofhow we impact our families.
And in the end, you've donenothing wrong.
You've volunteered to serveyour country, you trained for
combat, you went in combat.
We owe you, okay, we owe youhelp, we owe you coverage, we
(44:54):
owe you treatment and and andand disability in some cases as
well.
Because you know, we're nowunderstanding the impact of
these long-term exposures toblast, exposure to combat, and
then the trauma that goes withbeing turned on for decades on
end.
And then you come out here inthe real world everybody's like,
well, how come you're notnormal, how come you don't act
(45:15):
like a, you know a regularcivilian.
It's like well, dude, you know,and you're supposed to,
otherwise you're going to go tojail.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, it's like I'm not normal man, but no, I really
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
But no, we love our Marines and nobody's prouder of
their service than the MarineCorps, that's for sure.
So I wish you a Merry Christmas, happy holiday season and, for
everybody left before we go,don't forget Youth Contact,
sports and Broken Brains freebook on the website.
Go get it, Read it 88 pages.
You'll be more informed thanany doctor, psychiatrist in this
(46:18):
country on the issue ofrepetitive impacts.
And we're coming out with aguide for veterans for
repetitive blast exposure, whichis we're starting to drive a
lot of awareness to that issue.
And it's because of people likeAshton we're able to get there.
Ashton, thanks again for yourtime on the podcast.
Folks, thank you so much foranother wonderful episode of
Broken Brains.
Can't wait to see you soon.
Take care, thank you.
Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of
Broken Brains with yours trulyBruce Parkman, sponsored by the
Mack Parkman Foundation.
Our show is focused on theissue of repetitive brain trauma
in the forms of repetitive headimpacts and contact sports and
repetitive blast injuries forour veterans, and how these
injuries are affecting ourveterans, our kids, our adult
(00:35):
populations, and how we as asociety don't know much about
the damage that this is causingand why we need the change.
So every week we find the mostamazing set of podcast guests
out there that we bring on theshow to educate you, because our
doctors, our nurses, ourpsychiatrists are not informed
and our veteran administrators,our medical care professionals
(00:56):
for the VA, are not informed ofthis issue, and you must be
educated in order to bestprotect you and the ones you
love.
Today we have another excitingguest on our show Ms Ashton
Kroener.
She served in the Marine Corpsas a field radio operator During
her tour.
She deployed in 2009 in supportof OIF and received orders as a
(01:16):
lioness attached for 1stBattalion, 8th Marines, at
Al-Takadam Air Base.
In 2011, she redeployed to CampLeatherneck in support of OEF
with the 8th CommunicationsBattalion, and then for 2012 and
2015,.
She had the hardest job in themilitary, which is a recruiter.
During her time in service, sheunfortunately suffered multiple
traumatic brain injuries andchronic PTSD that she's dealt
(01:38):
with for years and she's been asignificant part.
She spent a significant part ofher post-military career
dealing with PTSD and findingher path to recovery and into a
full life, and she's beenthrough the Leon J Haley Brain
Wellness Program and she's partof it right now, where she
focuses on these challenges.
So she has turned her serviceinto service for her fellow
(02:01):
veteran operators in order tohelp them regain their quality
of life.
She's completed a bachelor'sdegree from Purdue University,
graduating summa cum laudecongratulations in July 2018,
and got her MBA from Purdue in2021.
No small achievements rightthere.
And she worked at a road homeprogram as outreach manager
(02:22):
prior to joining the Haley BrainWellness Program, and she's now
the Associate Director ofDevelopment at the University of
Florida Health, a Leon J HaleyBrain Wellness Program, which is
where she spends a lot of hertime giving up, and she follows
her time with the Marine CorpsLeague.
Now I've told my producer Idon't want any more Marines on
this darn show, but he keepstelling me he keeps finding you
guys and, of course, we've knowneach other for a long time and,
(02:44):
ashton, honestly, since I'veknown you and I've met you at so
many events and understandingyour commitment to our veteran
corps is unbelievable.
And taking what you have gonethrough and turning that into
servicing our veterans, and thatjust selfless love that comes
out of you is awesome.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself and tell us about these
(03:06):
TBIs that unfortunately got youon this program.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah well, first, thanks for having me.
I always like being able tospend time with you and you know
hearing about all the thingsthat you've been up to.
But so you know a little bitabout me.
I mean, I did serve, you know,obviously, eight years in the
Marine Corps.
You did a wonderful jobrecapping, you know, my life,
but yeah, I served eight yearsin the Marine Corps.
Actually, I grew up in, you know, in small town, texas, kind of
(03:31):
jumped around a little bit, butyou know, I always knew that I
was going to serve the militaryin some sort of, you know,
capacity.
Of course, back then I waswanting to do infantry and
infantry wasn't allowed, youknow, for females.
I wanted to be, you know whereall the action was.
But you know almost didn't jointhe military because I had two
head injuries prior to evenjoining.
You know, one of them, probablymore extreme, was actually an
(03:55):
equine accident where I gotkicked in the back of my head,
so that almost ended.
You know my ability to serveright then and there.
But you know, luckily I wasable to, um, you know, kind of
move past that senior year ofhigh school, you know, diving
accident, swimming and divingteam.
So I had, uh, you know, my, mysecond head injury and you know,
with uh, with that and you knowsome of the common symptoms
(04:16):
that you, you know, that you seeand that you kind of advocate
for Bruce, um, you know, likethat line, sensitivity, poor
concentration, you know, thosetypes of things really kind of
started impacting me then andthere, but I knew I was still
going to serve.
So, uh, senior year I enlistedand to uh, my beloved Marine
Corps, which 249, you know,years this year really excited
about uh next year's celebration.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Happy birthday and nobody's proud of their birthday
.
We can't even get.
I don't even know what the armybirthday is.
No, that's.
That's tragic man.
We don't even have army balls.
What you guys do with yourbirthday is through the roof,
and I do.
I do respect it so much.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh it's, it's great.
You know we always try to sitthere and bring in the other
branches so they get a smalltaste of of what it's like to
really celebrate.
So I might have to invite younext year to one of our, one of
our ceremonies.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, man, All about it.
I've been teaching Marines andNavy SEALs how to drink for 35
years, so you know I'm out ofpractice right now.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
We were born in a bar .
You know Marine Corps.
We were born in a bar.
You can't you can't not Right.
Yeah, no, I love it, yeah, butyeah, no, throughout my military
you know my military experienceyou know I got a lot of really
cool things, you know, startingfrom my first deployment getting
to volunteer as team lioness,um, which, for those that don't
(05:26):
know, that's where, um, youactually get partnered up with a
infantry unit or, you know, asoft unit to be able to, you
know, really gather, you know,intel information and and talk
to the locals, um, you know thatare, uh, that are in country,
and so I did that, for, you know, for a short time, um, and then
, you know, for a short time,and then, you know, went back to
my parent command.
Whenever I actually came backfrom my first first deployment,
(05:47):
we started doing training.
You know training exercisesgearing up for Afghanistan.
I was put into a one of thoseHumvee rollover simulations and,
you know, somebody lost controlof the rifle, you know, side of
the head, which is always agood feeling.
It's interesting about themilitary, though, and I know,
for those that have served, youknow, you always kind of hear
those words malingering and suckit up, and you know all those
(06:09):
things, and so I was reallyworried about, you know, how
that would impact my militarycareer, and so I was sitting
there, you know utilizing, um,you know really a lot of
self-medication, you know, andin regards to you know kind of
treating, you know, my, my headinjury, and it wasn't working.
I mean what you know military,they would sit there and
prescribe you those 800milligrams of ibuprofen and and
everything, and I was takingthree or four of those Ranger
candies is what we call them.
(06:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and they'retaking like three or four of
those at a time, you know, goingwell past the, uh, the dosage,
um, you know, just to be able tosee straight again.
But, yeah know, I mean again,learning from a different
country is always exciting.
But, um, got bored, starteddoing my um, mixed martial arts,
(06:53):
trying to get my black belt,and, you know, got thrown
shoulder, thrown across the room.
Uh, another training accidentwhich, uh, you know, honestly,
like all my head injuries, seemto be more accidents than actual
big catastrophic things thatyou see in the movies.
But, yeah, so I mean, aftergetting out of the military, I
(07:13):
mean I struggled.
I mean I think a lot of storiesthat I encounter are people
struggling, silently, strugglingat that, and so, for me, I
really wanted to be able to.
Once I got past my initialissues, got diagnosed with PTSD
and my TBI, I started gettinghelp, like I wanted to be able
to help others, and that'sexactly, you know, kind of what
drove me into the work that I'mdoing now is me.
(07:34):
It's all about preventionversus intervention, because it
came down to the point where Ialmost needed intervention to be
able to help get me back on myfeet in a good place.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So I want to be able to do the same thing for others.
So tell us about you know backthen, because we, you know, I
talked to a lot of vets andactually I was just at a, a
closed session on brain healthwith the military and um, you
know, the stigma keeps coming up, like you talk about you know
getting, you know, your, your,your TBIs from.
You know, training, um,regardless how you get them in
the military, you, you know,when you get them, military kind
of owns these, cause youwouldn't have been in a Humvee
(08:09):
rollover and you wouldn't betrying to get your black belt,
Cause you got to stay sane inthese combat zones, because
otherwise you just eat.
Because there's food everywhere, right, you're working out or
you're on mission, right, butyou talk about not wanting to
talk about your head injury.
So talk about the stigma and um, and what you know, what it is
about the military, cause I'velived it, you know we you don't
(08:35):
talk.
You don't talk about when yourankles twisted.
You don't talk about anythingman, that that could, you know,
show weakness, right, andespecially when it comes from up
here, because then you startlooking at not being able to do
your job and the military takesit weird.
So back then, which was not along time ago, but it was still
a different military than it isnow when it looks at mental
health, what were yourchallenges?
You know understanding that.
Hey man, I've got.
(08:56):
You know, I've had two TBIs,you know pretty severe ones.
You know whatever your symptomswere.
But I'm just going to suck itup.
Why didn't you go to yourcommand?
So and so Well.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I think there was a couple of reasons that you know
at play.
One I was worried about, youknow, the stigma surrounding,
like you know, my servicemembers, cause we had and I
think females specifically havea really hard time, you know, on
on that Cause you have some,you know, at least during my
service, you know you had somefemales that you know we're
trying to get out of.
You know, deploying, and Inever that was never me I always
wanted to go on deployment, um,I'd sit there and volunteer for
(09:31):
everything, and so I was reallyworried about that stigma of
you know I'm just going to be akind of like a, you know, a
deadbeat basically, or amalinger.
You know I just didn't want tobe labeled like that.
And it starts with the command.
You know just that, thattoxicity, you know we would
always sit there and cause I wasat Camp Lejeune and so the side
floor, I believe, was on thefourth floor, and so they were
like oh, if you go to the fourthfloor, you know you're going to
(09:58):
see the wizard, you know you'llnever come back.
And so there's that fear too.
You know, like when mean therewas that.
You know that worry that it wasgoing to impact my ability to
do my job.
You know it was going to impacthow others perceive me.
And then there was the fact oflike what, if this is actually
serious, you know, and thiscould actually just in my
military career in general, andso, you know, for me it was
easier just to kind of suck itup and not talk about it.
(10:20):
Now I will say that I know thatthere are other, you know that
there were others around me thatwere kind of seeing a little
bit of shift, especially with myhusband.
You know we had been dating atthe time Actually, no, we just
got married and you know he wasstarting to see that shift.
My parents have been talkingabout seeing that shift, and so
those that were like that knewme prior to my first deployment
versus, you know.
(10:40):
Now you know they got to seethat the start and shifts in my
personality and how I wasperceiving things.
I was doing things a little bitmore riskier than others, but
then I always chopped it up to.
Well, I'm a Marine, marines dorisky things, we do dumb
decisions, and so for me I wasalways just trying to prove that
(11:02):
there was nothing wrong, that Icould be just as better, or you
know, just as good, if notbetter, than you know those that
I was serving with and you knowit seems to always have a
competition between the malesand the females.
You know, to prove who wasbetter.
And you know, like I said, Ithat's why you know joined Team
Lioness and you know I wasvolunteering for everything that
I could.
They just kept on sending me tothe desert.
You know, every time Ivolunteered to go on a meal or
(11:23):
something, but it was just agood I mean, I was like it was.
It was a good experience, butat the same time I could see how
that impacts my health.
You know, today I wish I, Iwish there were things I'd done
differently when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And, and so do you think you could have you would
have approached this problem inthe same command environment a
little bit differently than Imean.
Cause you did say you were, youwere medicating, and we all
deal with, you know, medicationa lot of times to deal with our,
our, our, our mental health and, um, were you ever like
diagnosed?
Did you ever get a brain scanor you know, or did you just eat
(11:59):
it until you got out and thendecided to get help?
Is that pretty much the course?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So it was interesting .
So I think it was in between, Ithink it was in between
deployments, like right before Iwas like deploying to
Afghanistan, they actually did ascan and a memory test to see
how you know, kind of like mybaseline, which I find really
ironic because my baseline, youknow, prior to my first
deployment is really where thatshould have been happening, or
really even before then at maps.
You know, whenever you go to,you know, unless that, you know
(12:26):
that should be a standardizedyou know, just because of all
the training accidents thatoccur, to include even going
through recruit training.
So for me I think that you know, kind of looking back on you
know, like my thing, like youknow, like with my first head
injury in the military, you knowthere was a corpsman on scene
but I was downplaying everything.
Again, we're getting ready todo a you know deployment.
(12:48):
We had already lost, you know,one of our service members on
the first half of the deployment.
You know we were thereplacement and so you know I
was really worried about youknow, like, oh, people are going
to sit there and think that youknow, I don't want to.
You know, go because it's moredangerous.
You know deployment or, um,just trying to get out of it.
And so I sat there and I talkedto the form and I'm like, no,
I'm fine, despite me beingknocked out.
(13:09):
Um, I mean, I lostconsciousness for for a few
seconds and you know theyclearly saw.
I mean all the signs were therethat I had a confession.
And you know they took me atface value and you know kind of
left, and I ended up going backa couple of days later, you know
, complaining of migraines, andso they gave me ibuprofen and
you know I'm sitting therepopping that like candy, like
(13:33):
Tic Tacs and all that, and, andyou know, nothing was really
happening.
And when I was on deployment,you know again, deployment is
very, very different.
You know experience.
So you know we were.
You know we had a corpsman onscene, you know, for any type of
, you know, training in regardsto the mixed martial arts, and
so we had somebody on, you knowat least in our unit that were
able to, you know, be therewhenever I you know what I got
thrown.
I got my bell wrong a little biton that one too, cause I
remember just being dizzy and Iwas worried about being sent
(13:57):
home, you know, despite me notwanting to be there, you know, I
was like, yeah, I'm ondeployment, I'm having a good
time, but you know, I also missbeing home with my family and
that probably would have been myticket, you know, home.
But I was so worried againabout that stigma and so I just,
you know, again I sucked it upuntil after I got out of the
military and even then, likewhen I first got out of the
military, I didn't go, you know,I didn't claim, uh, you know
PTSD or you know TBI, becauseone I didn't know what a
(14:21):
traumatic brain injury was, Ididn't know what post-traumatic
stress was.
You know, all I know is that ifyou go and talk to somebody
about mental health, you'remessed up.
You know, and I just, again, Ididn't want that label, I was
afraid of it.
It wasn't until, um, you know,I was, you know, really starting
to see the struggle at my home,the family at this point, you
know, impacting my daughter andeverything, and I was like, all
right, fine, I'll go talk tosomebody.
(14:48):
And that's whenever I had areally great therapist, um, to
start off with.
And you know, she refused toeven like, you know, tell me
what my label is.
She was just working on thetrauma, you know, just working
on, you know, the things that Iwas complaining on, going on the
symptoms and you know, like sheknew what my you know my
diagnosis was, but I didn't knowabout it for the first like
year, year and a half, of megetting treatment, because, you
(15:08):
know, it's just not somethingthat we talked about, because
that made it important for me.
It's like I don't want to havea label associated with my name,
knowing in my medical record,you know.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I was labeled at that point.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But to me that was down, you know, ssris, ssnis,
benzos and all that.
Or was it more therapy?
Or did she prescribe anythingout of the box medication?
You know, I didn't wantanything to do with medication.
I wanted to keep my you knowlike my hormone levels the same.
I didn't want to have anyissues with you know like cause.
I know a lot of people weresitting there talking about how
tired they felt or, you know,feeling like they were hung over
, and I didn't want any of that.
So we actually started off withEMDR and I wasn't a fan.
(15:58):
I told her.
I was like I don't, I don'tlike EMDR, I don't like anything
about this.
It wasn't working for me.
Um, so then we just kind ofswitched over just to talk
therapy, you know, and then it,I mean it was nice, but I just
felt like I was alwayscomplaining.
I always sit there and useeveryday life, you know, like my
work, my job, you know, my boss, my husband, my kids, you know.
And we just weren't goinganywhere.
(16:19):
And she was like you needevidence days, you know, maybe
evidence-based, you know, maybenot EMDR.
So she actually did a cognitiveprocessing therapy with me to
start, and so the CPT.
I'm a big fan of cause I andand very black and white
whenever it comes to getting youknow, getting treated.
Either it works or it doesn'twork.
And you know having like that.
(16:40):
I used to watch a lot of lawyershows growing up too, and so
that's how she compared CPT withme.
She was like you're basically alawyer and you're trying to
combat your um, your symptoms,you know, and why you feel the
way that you feel and why that'snot your fault.
Um, and I really liked that.
You know I was like okay.
So I mean I was just sittingthere always putting a case in
my head and a lot of the timesmy husband would look at me and
he's like what are know whatever?
You know whatever was going on.
And then you know after, youknow I would say after about a
(17:00):
year or so you know she hadactually brought up, you know
like some of the symptoms thatI've been seeing, you know like
having she was like you knowthere might be more, you know
going on here, and I had nevereven brought up that I had had
multiple head impacts, you know,and you know I'd never, you
(17:20):
know it was never mentioned anyof it and she was like, have you
ever been, you know, diagnosedwith a or not that, but assessed
for a TBI?
And I was like I don't know whatthat means, you know.
So we started doing theassessments and, you know,
realized pretty quickly that,you know, I just based on my
symptoms that you know I had aTBI going on.
So then, you know, it kind ofshifted over to more of like
speech language.
For, you know, like my memoryyou're called my memory was
(17:44):
garbage back then, still is, butnot nearly as bad as it as it
was and and it was, you know,thankfully, you know, because of
her, I was able to really get,you know, get an understanding
of what was going on and why itwas impacting my family so much.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
That's, yeah, I mean, and that's something that you
know, as at least she was tryingto explore.
You know some of thosedifferent, you know therapies
and and, and give you a pathahead, Because you know, you
know the usual option is here'sa bag of drugs, you know, and,
and you know here's some therapy, and we know that doesn't work.
And obviously let's, let's,let's change.
(18:19):
Shift now to what you're doingnow.
I mean, you're working withveterans.
You're, um, you're working withtheir brains, which is amazing
because this is the mostunaddressed issue when it comes
to mental health, because we're,we're not aware that the brain
health, the brain, you know, youknow the, the, the, the
physical brain health.
Also, you know it can impactmental, mental health, right,
(18:42):
Impact mental illness, and wedon't address the brain as an
organ.
So tell us about, um, the HaleyInstitute that you're working
at right now.
And how did you get there?
Like, you just apply for a joband get it?
I mean, you have a MBA, right,You're not actually in the
social welfare space, so how didyou get over there?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah.
So my husband and I, we wereactually up in Illinois and you
know, he, he actually ended upand he's good now, but he had
testicular cancer and so the youknow like just the weather from
, uh, you know, going throughchemo and everything really was
impacting, just like how hisbody regulation was.
And so we're like you know whatwe like Florida, let's just
move to Florida.
And so, um, I I gave my uh, nowold boss, uh, like basically a
(19:28):
four month notice and I'm like,hey, I'm leaving in May.
I was like I'll say, you knowI'll stay for this, but you know
I'll be gone.
We're moving to Florida.
Hottest time of the year reallyto start moving to Florida there
was really, but anyways, it wasgreat, great, you know, great
opportunity for us.
And so, um, I only applied fortwo jobs actually, one was when
to warrior project, um, and thenthe other, I mean, I just kind
of put in veterans, um, you know, in the Jacksonville area.
(19:50):
So I'm in Jacksonville, florida, and um, the TBI center, you
know, you know, came up.
And so, um, I started reading alittle bit about it.
It's a new, it was a newerprogram, but it was under the
Avalon Action Alliance, whichhas been around for years now,
and it's a collaborative ofhospitals that um assess and
treat military veterans of anyera, of any discharge status, um
(20:11):
, regardless of they can pay ornot.
So, very similar to the workthat I was doing.
Um, and they needed adevelopment officer, and so I
hadn't really done too much workin the, in the fundraising, um,
you know, at the time, and so I, I put my hat in for the ring
and I was like, you know, I,I've done some fundraising, but
not much.
Most of my stuff is communityoutreach on the national level.
And so, um, they, uh, you knowthey interviewed me and, um, you
(20:34):
know, I hadn't heard from them,you know, for for a few weeks
and I'm like, ah, you know, I, II don't think I got the job and
you know, I'd already, you know, said no to Wounded Warrior
Project, so I was like we'rejust going to start our own
business.
So when we moved here, um, youknow, I, we, I get a call from
my now boss offering me aposition.
So everything kind of, you know, aligned really well.
(20:56):
But you know, my role, myfunction, is to fundraise and,
you know, spread awareness forveterans and first responders
that are, you know, not reallysure what's going on, you know,
with their brains, but they havesymptoms that you know, some of
the same symptoms that I youknow that I was always sitting
there talking about and you knowthat I was always sitting there
talking about.
And you know what we do is wetake an integrative care, you
(21:16):
know, approach to our veterans.
So if somebody comes up to meand says, hey, you know I heard
you talk and you know I havesome of those symptoms that you
were mentioning but I don't knowhow to get, you know, get
started, I help them get startedinto the program and it and it
just basically goes off of youknow what, what their needs are,
what their symptoms are.
Does the three?
You know we start off with athree-day assessment and what's
(21:37):
really unique about it is, youknow the patient is centered.
You know, first and foremost,they come in and they talk to
our core providers.
You know our speech, language,pathology, our psychiatrists,
our neurologists I mean allthese doctors are in one room
together, which is not a commonoccurrence in any medical
practice and the patient tellstheir story.
(21:58):
One time they say you know,either I've had multiple head
traumas or maybe I've had oneinstance, but these are my
symptoms and then over the nextcouple of days they're getting
follow-on appointments to get agood understanding of what's
going on and then from there wemake recommendations on you know
, one, what their injury is andtwo, you know how best to treat
it.
Sometimes we need to have themgo back into the community for
(22:18):
more tests.
Other times, you know, we getthem linked right up to our
intensive outpatient program.
So on top of those core, youknow providers that you know
they meet with we also take anintegrative therapy approach.
So we include acupuncture forpain, mindfulness, art therapy,
music therapy.
We have canine and equineprogramming, walking equine
program, no writing, but youknow, at the same time, you know
(22:41):
they're taking more of that.
You know regular approach thatyou see in a lot of, you know,
either inpatient or intensiveoutpatient programs.
You know in regards tobehavioral health and
neurological you know help.
So there's a lot that'shappening during, you know,
during that three-week timeframeand what we're realizing is
that the evidence is showing areduction, and a drastic
reduction, in TBI symptoms.
So we know the program isworking and I have the honor of
(23:05):
being able to, you know,fundraise to make sure that our
program is going to continue foryears to come.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Now are you, beyond the therapies that are doing,
what are you doing to addressbrain health?
Are you doing HBOT?
You're doing TMS, you knowphotobiomodulation, any of the
electronic therapies out there?
Oh sorry go ahead.
Yeah, no, no, keep going.
And I got to follow up.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So you know, all of our, all our stuff is we have a
very like, we're very physicaltherapy focused and so some of
the machines that we're using isour appropriate on our bird
tech.
Our bird tech machine isactually virtual reality and
there's platelets that you knowthat the individual is standing
on, and so they actually partnerreally well with speech,
(23:52):
language pathology, on memoryretention as well.
So you might be driving a carstanding on this, platelets in
your harness stand, of course,and so while the PT, you know,
and it's a physical therapyneurologist, so it's our
neurological physical therapistthat's working with us.
So specifically for the brain,and what they're doing is
they're running you throughsimulations and then they might
(24:13):
be saying, okay, what color wasthat light that you just, you
know, walked, or that you justdrove by, you know.
So it links in that speech,language pathology as well, and
we're able to, you know,basically, look, check their
vestibular system, you know, andtreat their vestibular, you
know.
So for those that you know passout easy, and actually quite a
(24:40):
few of the individuals that comethrough our program, you know,
don't complain of, you know,vertigo they're not really
complaining of, you know,passing out because they, you
know we're, we're accustomed,you know, just as humans you
know, to sit there and not putourselves in situations where
you know it's going to aggravatethose symptoms.
Same thing like you roll yourankle, what are you going to do?
You're going to have crutches.
You know you're going to sitthere and you know, basically,
put your feet off the, you know,off the floor on that.
In that sense, people do thesame thing for the vestibular
system and so we purposely putthem in a system to be able to,
(25:03):
um, I don't want to use the wordaggravate, but you know
physical therapy, um, you know alot of people with head
injuries.
You know they, theyautomatically tense up and so if
you're constantly in that tenseor that what we call our hyper
aroused state, um, it's going tobe causing a lot of other pain,
(25:23):
um, pain issues, you know,basically from your jawline
going all the way down to yourtoes, and so, um, the proprio is
able and along with ourphysical, just our entire
physical therapy team uses thatin order to be able to, you know
, treat your, you know basicallyrelearning how to walk again,
how to move, how to stand, howto sit in a correct fashion, so
you're not aggravating whereit's going all the way up to the
(25:44):
pain receptors in your brain.
So there's a lot that'shappening, you know, in our
clinic.
But whenever it comes to someof the other treatment, you know
modalities that are out there.
We're really focused on thosetwo aspects as of right now.
But research is amazing and wedo have a research team that's
looking at other modalities aswell.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Okay, and do you partner with other clinics, like
if these veterans you know wantto, because you know the issue
we have with the brain is wereally don't know how to treat
the brain.
All we can do is just take, asyou know, give it as much of a
challenge as we can give it andtry to help it heal.
So do you work with or partnerwith other service providers
(26:23):
that you can refer you knowveterans to?
If they, you know if they wantto try these other modalities to
continue to improve theirhealth, because once they leave
your care, if they're not local,then basically their access to
that care when they go back isover, right?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Correct.
Yeah, so we do have a casemanagement team and an alumni
program as well.
So the alumni program, you knowwe are, we offer that, you know
, in a hybrid model.
So for those that are local,they can come in person, we
share a meal, we go over somemore, you know, treatment
modalities, check-ins, thosetypes of things.
But then, you know, for thosethat are, you know, maybe out of
(27:01):
state or too far of a drive,you know we offer that virtually
as well, so they can continueto have access to our clinic,
really for the life of theprogram.
Now, in regards to, you know,follow on care, because we are,
you know, obviously an intensiveoutpatient program, you know
we're focused on that three weekmodel and then sending them
back into the community we havea phenomenal case management
(27:21):
team that tailors their needsbased on whatever it is that's
going on in their life.
And so the clinical team comestogether and, you know, in their
discharge plan which I knowsome of those can be pretty
daunting, they actually make itreally easy to read and just a
couple of papers and everybodyis sent home, you know, with
that, but in their casemanagement folder and they meet
(27:42):
multiple times throughout theIOP and then also during the
three-day evaluation as well.
But during that timeframe we'refiguring out exactly what their
needs are.
It can be anything from likefinancial to recreational, to
maybe continuation of carethrough a clinical, and so we,
we do a lot of assessing andthen, you know, giving all that
(28:02):
information over to the veteran.
Now it's up to them to be ableto reach out to them.
But we have quite a fewcollaborative part.
Our own city's partners aregoing to be careful of that.
University of Florida might beupset, but we do collaborate
with so many differentorganizations in order to be
able to have that.
You know that continuation ofcare, Because you know what's
great about these programs isthat they're able to really get
(28:24):
you to a point where we'reimproving their life.
But if they don't keep up withthat just like going to the gym
if you don't keep working onthose muscles, you're going to
go right back to where you werebefore.
And so we you know that thatcase management team really is
pivotal in in our program.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Okay.
So if they, if they do get, youknow, if they do good at equine
therapy, they have to go buy ahorse when they go back to the
country.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I mean they have the space.
Absolutely no, we go find ahorse right.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
No, and that's the point that we're trying to make
is we do not have a scalableapproach to brain health right
now.
Like it's all you know, it'sall specialist and specialized
training.
That is not something that youcan find in the.
You know outside, you know inrural country or even in larger
cities, there's these you knowsmall networks of clinics.
And why is you know brainspecialized healthcare when we
have such an enormous TBI issue,like we have 2.8 million TBIs
(29:21):
in America?
Right, we've got, you know,we've got over 160,000 dead
veterans.
Okay, none of them that, in ouropinion, have been assessed for
their brain health and theimpact on their careers.
We still have to address thatissue.
And yet we find that oursuicide rates are not dropping,
because we personally feel insome cases is that we're not
(29:42):
looking at brain health, we'renot associating brain health
with mental illness and mentalillness with suicide.
We're doing the mental illnesswith suicide thing, but we're
treating mental illness inoutpatient with therapy and
drugs and a lot of these peoplearen't finding you.
I mean, what's your throughputa month?
How many veterans are?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
you seeing a month new veterans?
Um, so we have the capacity for, uh, you know about a hundred,
110, maybe at our clinic for theIOP, um, you know cause we, we
have our, you know our three-dayassessment.
That's, I mean, that's constant, you know.
I mean there's a I thinkthere's only a handful of weeks
in the entire year, like aroundChristmas and Thanksgiving and
such that we're not seeinganybody in clinic and that's our
(30:22):
admin, you know our admin time.
But we have a pretty steady,you know, sense of veterans or
veterans and first responderscoming through our program, and
so I think and I'll have to sitthere and check on the numbers,
but I want to say it's likeclose to 250 or 300 that we have
through our doors for ourthree-day evaluation.
And then that IOP, it's veryspecialized and we keep them in
(30:43):
smaller cohorts, you know.
So they have a way to be.
And I say smaller, about 10veterans per cohort can come
through and get treated, youknow, and it's three weeks, it's
one, you know, once a month.
Um, that that we're seeing, youknow, seeing these individuals,
and so, um, you know, for forus, and I and I get it a lot,
you know, like, what's greatabout, you know, working under
the Avalon Action Alliance isthat we're one of seven clinics
(31:06):
in the nation and we're growing.
Um, so Bernie Marcus and ArthurBlank they're the founders of
Home Depot, they're the onesthat really kind of brought us
all together and their vision,well, and Bernie Marcus, their
vision was to have a clinic inevery state and that's what
we're working on is we'reworking on having a TBI clinic
specialized with veterans andfirst responders, meaning our
providers are specially trained,you know, to understand.
(31:30):
You know some of the challengesthat are, you know that
community faces, you know, andso you know, so we're able to
really target specifically thataudience.
And as for how people arehearing about us a lot of it's
word of mouth, but our communityengagement going to events.
The problem is, is a lot ofveterans that are really needing
our services.
(31:50):
They self-isolate, they'restaying at home or maybe they're
working full-time.
They have families, so theywork, they go home, they cook
dinner, they go to bed and theydo it all over again, and then
weekends they're going to littleJohnny or Susie soccer practice
or you know whatnot.
So I mean it's really hard toget in front of some of these
individual that could reallybenefit from our service, and so
, you know, doing podcasts andonline marketing has really been
(32:13):
helpful in getting people to us, and if our wait times get, you
know, pretty long, I mean wehave a network that we could sit
there and refer to.
So you know we partnered with,you know right now, like I said,
six other TBI clinics and ifour numbers get low, we'll refer
over to them.
So there's not going to be along wait list for our community
.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
No, and that's the point is that there shouldn't be
a wait list, right, and it'snot your job to to to address
the entire veteran population,these, you know, brain health is
not part of any.
It's starting to be, but if youlook at all the veterans that
have left the service in thelast 20 years of war and before
that, you know, when I left,nobody talked about brain health
(32:54):
, right, nobody talked about,hey, have you had TBIs, man, I
had been shot in the face.
That's why I'm so ugly.
You know I've been.
You know I've been blown.
I've been around so manyexplosions.
I've woken up, you know,unconscious, on so many rugby
fields as a military rugbyplayer, unconscious on so many
rugby fields as a military rugbyplayer, right, it's like, yeah,
I've had some.
I didn't even know what a TBIwas, right, and so I'm like, all
(33:18):
right, how do we, you know, andhow do we scale this?
And this is, you know, numberone.
I'd love to know more about theAvalon Alliance and your
founders there, because we havea concept for a larger program,
right, a program, a record, thatneeds a lot of attention right
now.
But the number one gap thatwe're trying to fill is number
one is awareness, right, do Ihave a problem?
And then awareness andeducation in the military side,
(33:39):
because the specific treatmentsthat you provide should not be
unique just to your organization, right, this should be part of
any hospital.
That, because TBI is TBI andwith the VA we shouldn't just
have just TBI centers, we shouldhave the VA should be aware of
this.
Like I go to my clinic here inBradenton, florida, tbi right, I
(34:00):
mean, they know of it but theyhave no idea.
They don't say I go in there.
It's like man, you know, how'syour libido, how's your health,
what's your cholesterol?
Maybe you're going to ask aboutbrain health.
My doctor looks at me.
Why would I ask you about brainhealth?
Like, well, I've been in fourdifferent combat zones.
I mean just kind of wondering.
But you know to your point youshouldn't have to skip.
Let me throw another question inthere.
(34:21):
So psychedelics, okay,psychedelics is a very, very big
part of the fringe of, or thefrontier, I think, of healthcare
.
We are seeing, especiallypeople in very, very acute
(34:41):
stages of suicidal ideation orvery, very pronounced mental
illness in forms of very, verydeep, deep depression, that
we're seeing significantimprovements with the use of
psychedelics.
How do you as obviouslysomething that you do not.
You know it's not one of themodalities you leverage.
Do you refer out, or you know,how does the you personally, how
(35:03):
do you feel about it?
Or how does the you know, howdo we get?
I mean, is there anyinteraction on the psychedelics
from your organization?
Do you refer out the clinics,or you know where veterans are
beyond the needs right now?
They're like they're just atthe end of the road.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
So yeah, so, man, I wish our medical director was
still here.
So he was actually a Dixonpsychiatrist, you know, and you
know years and years in themilitary as a pilot and then he
ended up becoming a psychiatristfor the army and so you know
he's able to to really sit thereand hone in on this
conversation Officially.
You know, our, our clinicobviously doesn't, you know, do
(35:42):
anything with psychedelics.
Now we do have quite a fewveterans coming through our
programming and they sit thereand they talk about, you know,
how psychedelics has impactedthem there.
You know we obviously encouragethat conversation.
Now, you know, from from thatstance, I really can't talk, you
know.
Talk about it from, you knowbut from my personal, you know,
stance.
(36:02):
I mean I did the staley ganglionblock and that changed my life.
You know, like I, I thought,you know, I was just kind of
going through like downwardspiral and being able to pair
that with an evidence basedtreatment, I mean complete game
changer, you know.
I mean I went from you knowhaving, you know, flashbacks and
nightmares and you know allsorts of different things you
know really impacting my qualityof life, to not having nearly
(36:26):
any.
I mean I can't.
I mean especially immediatelyfollowing, you know, my, my
injection.
I mean I.
I mean I mean especiallyimmediately following, you know,
my, my injection.
I mean I.
I mean I was a completelydifferent person.
So I mean I, I can't sit thereand say enough about it, and I
know that, dr Lippo aboutChicago he's done a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
He did mine too.
Yeah right, yeah, he'sfantastic.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
I absolutely adore him you know, but like for for
them, like he, he and ShaunaSpringer out in California I
mean, she's a big advocate forit and so, um, I, I know for me
personally and quite a fewveterans you know we can sit
there and have thoseconversations.
You know, offhand I'd like, hey, it saved my life.
Officially, university ofFlorida is probably going to sit
there and you know I'd be likewhat the heck Ashton should be
(37:10):
something that you know a lot ofproviders should be looking at.
I know Rush University MedicalCenter in Chicago they've done
some trials with SGB and what isit pairing it with?
Like one week of CPT and youknow they saw some really,
really promising results.
So it's becoming more prevalentin the medical community.
I think there was such again,there's that word stigma.
You know there is that stigma.
(37:30):
Yeah, there was such again,there's that word stigma.
You know, there is that stigma,yeah.
So I think, if used correctlyand under the guidance of a
doctor, I think it canrevolutionize, you know,
revolutionize the, you know, thebrain health, you know, and the
TBI world.
Same thing with post-traumaticstress as well.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
That's where I think SGBs come in For our audience.
The stately ganglion blocks isan outpatient procedure where
they basically lidocaine theganglion nerve centers on both
sides of your neck one side orboth sides depending on the
perceived level of trauma.
This is not a psychedelictreatment sometimes done in
conjunction with ketamine orother psychedelic treatments but
(38:10):
basically it allows a veteranthat's been exposed and first
responders to a lot of fight orflight Like you're turned on.
We see this with our NFLplayers where you're
hypervigilant, you're turned onall the time.
Your fight or flight mechanismhas never been shut.
So we're seeing people likeAshton and myself that have
decades of being turned onfinally being able to relax
(38:31):
because this procedure shutsthat fight or flight mechanism
down.
It's been used successfullywith a lot of first responders,
a lot of special operationspeople.
So we do see that's one ofthose operations that's coming
into the mainstream along with,you know, the utilization of
psychedelics that you know whenwe have, you know, people that
are not responding to CBT orequine therapy or other, we have
(38:54):
to.
That's what we're looking atopening up the band.
Open up our you know ourblinders here, because you know
for you, for your organization,Ashton, to partner with other
organizations.
That's part of opening theseblinders.
What do you have?
Because in the end we have aveteran that's hurting and if I
can't help them with what I got,what can you do for them?
(39:16):
And it's not like it's notinsulated, right, we are a
community and for you to be ableto refer out and work with
other providers and have thatopen approach to mental health
is so powerful and very, verycompelling.
So, you know, tell us a littlebit more.
(39:37):
How do people find you?
Let's dive into the Avalon hereas we close out.
How do people get a hold of you?
Let's talk about this.
So, first, you know what arethe symptoms, right?
So say I'm a wife, right?
Or a husband of a spouse who'sbeen in the military, like I got
married after I left the armyafter 20 years, right, how do I
(39:59):
know if my loved one is struck?
Say they've been in themilitary.
I've talked to so many wives.
You know that.
Oh, I know my husband was amaster breacher.
He got blown up.
I talked, you know, and likehe's they drag him over.
It's like you need to talk tohim, right, because once you
start explaining what thesesymptoms are, they might think
it's them.
Hey, I'm ugly, or you don'tlike me no more, or you know, or
(40:22):
you're an alcoholic, and no,it's up here, man.
So talk to educate our audienceon you know, you know on on TBI
related symptoms, so they canunderstand that sometimes it's
not their childhood, it's notyou know the fact that they saw
bodies, or it could be that theysaw dead bodies, you know.
But these are some of thesymptoms that you should be
watching out for.
And then how do they find youso they can get evaluated,
(40:43):
diagnosed and treated.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Absolutely.
Now I will say for the spousesor the significant others or
those that are not the veteran,All right, If any of these kind
of come up, don't be sittingthere immediately going over to
your veteran being like.
I heard Ashton and Brucesitting there talking.
That's not what I'm doing.
This is just the education Allright, yeah, and then you know
for those that have had injuries, like, hey, if some of these
(41:07):
are, you know, on your you knowlike, you know kind of things
that you're you know gettingplagued with, like, know that
there's treatment for you.
You do not have to live likethis.
For the longest time I thoughtthat this was normal about being
in the military, like, oh yeah,my body's going to just mess up
and I'm going to have to livewith it.
No, you don't.
So, with that being said,probably the biggest one that I
get is sleep disturbance.
(41:28):
That is, hands down,everybody's always talking about
.
You know, I have really poorsleep, that noise sensitivity as
well, especially those withyoung kids, you know, and they
have the TV up a little loud ormaybe like that, just high pitch
noise and all of a sudden yougot that tinnitus going on.
You know that noise sensitivityis really a big thing that we
hear.
But then you go into, like, theanxiety.
(41:49):
You know the depression, youknow, maybe, some forgetfulness,
you know headaches.
Headaches are very, very common.
Um, and then you can look at,like, coordination difficulties
If you're having difficultybalancing, um, that nausea,
light sensitivity I should haveprobably said that one as well.
Light sensitivity is is huge,um, you know, if you happen to
constantly have the lightsdimmed in the office uh, you
(42:10):
know, that's a, that's a big oneand then, slow thinking, if you
have a hard time being able toremember that, where it's like
crap, what, what am I looking?
You know what am I sittingthere trying to remember?
These are all things that arethat are treatable, you know,
and and you don't have to sitthere and, you know, just
constantly live like this.
So if any of those are yoursand that's not an exhaustive
(42:30):
lift those are just the mostcommon ones that we see in our
clinic.
But if this is something thatyou're, you know, kind of
getting plagued with, you know Iwould reach out to the Avalon
Action Alliance.
So you can just GoogleA-V-A-L-O-N Action Alliance and
it'll bring you to, you know,our homepage and, like I said,
(42:52):
I'm one of seven TBI clinics andI know that, bruce, you have
very far reaching uh community.
So, um, they see veterans allacross the nation, puerto Rico,
uh, you know, just all over andwhat they're doing is they're
reducing, um, those barriersinto care.
So if you're having difficultywith, like, your insurance, um,
that's not a problem.
You know, airfare, lodging food, all of that is going to be
covered under a grant.
(43:12):
So all you have to do is beable to just Google, go online
and say, hey, I'm having thesedifficulties, and then somebody
from one of the clinics willgive you a call.
It's usually based on yourgeographic location and then,
you know, it starts the process.
It's a self-referral process,so you know.
Again, that's Avalon ActionAlliance.
If you're specifically wantingto come see me in my clinic, you
(43:36):
can just give us a call andthat number is 904-244-3289.
Again, that's 904-244-3289.
You know, and this is just likeI said, it's so easy to be able
to get help and for and for me,speaking from somebody that has
experienced that you know camevery close to you know,
basically losing their familyover just these issues that are
(43:57):
infeasible treatable right I'mnot going to say you're going to
get cured, but can you gettreated so you can have a better
quality of life?
I mean, why wouldn't you?
What's you know?
Speaker 1 (44:09):
and can you get diagnosed.
We understand that these issuesare not you going crazy.
They're the result of yourmilitary service or it could be
result those dang horses cause,like they're the third leading
causing incursions in America.
A lot of people don't know that, right.
I mean, more people go to thehospitals because these darn
horses than anything.
But you know we don't ride themin the army anymore, right, but
(44:32):
you know we don't ride them inthe army anymore, right, but you
know.
But that's the whole point isthat a lot of our veterans are
suffering in silence andtherefore their families are
suffering in silence because ofhow we impact our families.
And in the end, you've donenothing wrong.
You've volunteered to serveyour country, you trained for
combat, you went in combat.
We owe you, okay, we owe youhelp, we owe you coverage, we
(44:54):
owe you treatment and and andand disability in some cases as
well.
Because you know, we're nowunderstanding the impact of
these long-term exposures toblast, exposure to combat, and
then the trauma that goes withbeing turned on for decades on
end.
And then you come out here inthe real world everybody's like,
well, how come you're notnormal, how come you don't act
(45:15):
like a, you know a regularcivilian.
It's like well, dude, you know,and you're supposed to,
otherwise you're going to go tojail.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, it's like I'm not normal man, but no, I really
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
But no, we love our Marines and nobody's prouder of
their service than the MarineCorps, that's for sure.
So I wish you a Merry Christmas, happy holiday season and, for
everybody left before we go,don't forget Youth Contact,
sports and Broken Brains freebook on the website.
Go get it, Read it 88 pages.
You'll be more informed thanany doctor, psychiatrist in this
(46:18):
country on the issue ofrepetitive impacts.
And we're coming out with aguide for veterans for
repetitive blast exposure, whichis we're starting to drive a
lot of awareness to that issue.
And it's because of people likeAshton we're able to get there.
Ashton, thanks again for yourtime on the podcast.
Folks, thank you so much foranother wonderful episode of
Broken Brains.
Can't wait to see you soon.
Take care, thank you.
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