February 17, 2025 • 49 mins
In this eye-opening episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, we dive deep into the hidden dangers of blast exposure on military personnel and law enforcement officers. Bruce is joined by Dr. James Engall, a leading expert on brain trauma and neuropsychology, to discuss the long-term impact of blast overpressure, the risks of repetitive exposure, and groundbreaking strategies for prevention and recovery.
Key topics covered include:
✔️ The mechanics of blast exposure and how it affects brain health
✔️ Why weapon systems, muzzle brakes, and military training can contribute to brain trauma
✔️ BAaM 360 Inc.: A revolutionary Strategic Consulting company leveraging the institutional knowledge that their team has acquired on blast exposure monitoring in military operational surveillance and operational research environments mitigate blast exposure risks.
✔️ The role of eye-tracking technology in diagnosing brain injuries
✔️ New approaches to training smarter and prioritizing brain health
With traumatic brain injuries (TBI) and chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) becoming major concerns in both military and law enforcement communities, this conversation is essential for anyone who has served or supports those on the front lines.
🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube! Don’t forget to follow, like, share, and subscribe to stay informed on the latest research and solutions for brain health, blast mitigation, and veteran mental wellness.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is sponsored by The Mac Parkman Foundation
Support The Mac Parkman Foundation by donating today!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
02:53 Understanding Subconcussive Impacts
05:57 The Role of Sports Organizations in Prevention
10:35 Advancements in Medical Technology for Brain Health
16:19 The Future of Sports Safety and Player Health
23:21 Understanding Concussions and Their Impact
25:46 The Role of Glutathione in Brain Health
28:39 Researching TBI in Athletes and Veterans
32:22 Innovative Treatments for Brain Injuries
36:10 Addressing Mental Health in Veterans and Athletes
Get the Head Smart App Today! Click the link below to download it now!
https://www.mpfact.com/headsmart-app/
Connect with Dr. Engall today!
LinkedIn: James Engall
https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-engall-a0292611b/
Website: baam360.com
Produced by Security Halt Media
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey folks, welcome back to another edition of
Broken Brains with yours trulyBruce Parkman, where we look at
the issue of repetitive braintrauma, especially through
repetitive head impacts insports and repetitive blast
exposure to our militaryveterans, and we look at how
this exposure has impacted notonly their brains but their
lives and what we have to do asa society to identify, diagnose
(00:33):
and treat these individuals andthen do a beta job to make
sports and military service safe.
We look at researchers andscientists, patients, advocates
and people across the spectrumof brain health and brain
support and bring them on theshow so that you're informed
about this, because this is anuntouched subject in America
(00:53):
right now.
It's the largest preventablecause of mental illness in our
adult populations and we are notdoing enough for it right now.
On our guest today, veryexcited to have Dr James Engel
on board.
He represents a product calledBlast Analytics and Mitigation,
or BAM360, and they're focuseduniquely right now on the
(01:17):
identification, diagnosis andtreatment of individuals from
the issue of repetitive blastexposure, that is, the exposure
of their brain, their body, tothe multiplicity of blasts they
take with high-caliber weaponry,indirect fire, weapon systems,
explosives, yada, yada.
Dr Carver earned his PhD from UCDavis, and his research focused
(01:39):
on both the structural andfunctional neuroplasticity of
the brain to injury and normalaging process.
He was a postdoctoral researchfellow at the University of
Arizona, where he continued hisresearch on normal and
pathological brain aging, and hepivoted from academia to
industry as a clinicalneuropsychologist to help
(02:00):
optimize outcomes for bothhigh-risk brain and spine
surgeries, while specializing inmicroelectrode recordings to
facilitate deep brainstimulating electrode placement
for the treatment of motordisorders.
In 2017, he got the itch to getback into research and joined
an ongoing research program thatwas a collaboration with the
(02:23):
Naval Special WarfareInvestigating Training
Associated Blast, and he wasinstrumental to the US, the
USHUS CONCORPROGRAMS blastmonitoring efforts, and I think
I met you at the USHUSconference early this year or I
we, because I was there talkingabout that and is the architect
of their weapons mapping program.
He launched BAM, which is theprogram we're getting ready to
(02:45):
talk about here in 2020, anddeveloped the first
comprehensive blast monitoringprogram called Operation Blue
Shield for high-risk operatorsin the law enforcement community
.
We have a lot to talk about.
Dr Engel, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Thank you so much, Bruce, for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Hey, no.
So you've been through a lot,man, and we don't find a lot of
people that are focused on theissue of repetitive blast
exposure.
So what got you here and thenwhat are you trying to do about
it?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, what got me here is actually my interest in
trying to understand, likenormal aging brain and how it
degrades over time, eitherthrough normal processes or
through pathological processesover time.
Either through normal processesor through pathological
processes.
And you know, essentially, whenI jumped into this, you know the
blast world it was almost byhappenstance.
The research program was lookingfor someone who specialized a
(03:34):
systems neuroscientist, whospecialized in multiple domains,
and I fit the bill Down theroad.
I inevitably led the projectbefore it closed and they
shifted over to the CONCRETEprogram proper where they were
doing a lot of pilot blastmonitoring, where I essentially
helped design a bunch of reportsthat are currently circulating
(03:58):
throughout the DoD.
I was also tasked to do someweapon mapping of all the
different types of weaponsystems that people have been
reporting on, everything fromsmall arms to the large caliber
shoulder-mounted weapons andhowitzers, artillery, etc.
And so I'm really excited abouttalking to you today about our
(04:21):
current efforts, what I'mcurrently doing within the law
enforcement community day, aboutour current efforts, what I'm
currently doing within the lawenforcement community, because,
as you know, they're alsoexposed to repetitive low-level
blast throughout their op tempo,either through full-time or
collateral duty.
These guys are also taking abunch of hits throughout their
careers.
So that's a little bit about meand kind of what we're doing.
I'd love to get more into thetopic.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, man.
No, I love it because we reallydon't associate blast exposure,
repetitive at impacts, with lawenforcement.
Okay, other than they might getin a fight right.
So with that populationspecifically.
Interestingly, where are theygetting the most of their
impacts from?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay.
So a couple of things.
When it comes to lawenforcement, depending if
they're full-time or collateralduty, most of these guys are
again getting most of theirblast exposure in training, just
like in the military, in fact,I think their blast exposure
large caliber rifles you know338, 50 cal breaching, wall
breaching, door breaching andalso shotgun breaching.
(05:23):
And lastly, from energetics youknow just throwing flashbangs
and you know clearing rooms,things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
All right, yeah, and a lot of people don't know that
our law enforcement, you knowour law enforcement officers,
are heavily involved in thesetypes of training, just like the
military.
And, yeah, to your point, theyprobably don't execute them as
much in, say, combat.
And really needed that we rightnow, given the fact that our,
you know, wars are kind ofdeclared over, but you know,
(06:04):
that's interesting and it's veryinteresting.
So when we talk about blastexposure to our viewer, what are
you calling blast exposure?
How are these waves areproduced and what parts of the
body are they impacting and howare they impacting?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Sure.
So when you think about thesource right, like an explosion
or from a weapon system goingoff, you know there's either a
high explosive or some type ofpropellant that's burning right,
that suddenly sets off a charge, right, and so you have, like
this source, this energy that'srapidly expanding from the
(06:39):
source Now within a weaponsystem.
You know if it's inside of a,like a large caliber rifle, it's
that you know the, the, theprimer, is going to be struck
and the bullets going to theprojectiles and come out at the
end of the barrel.
But all of that force that'sgetting that projectile out of
the barrel is what's going to beproducing overpressure.
Now, that might be.
You know, that's just onesource.
(07:00):
Another source is obviouslyfrom, like a door charge
breaching a wall, breaching adoor charge breaching a wall,
breaching a door, making a highexplosive or other sources like
an energetic, like a flashback.
So when we think about the, youknow how it's occurring.
Again, there's rapid transientchange, pressure that's leaving
that weapon system or device.
Now, what it's doing I thinkthat was your second question as
(07:26):
it's expanding from its sourceright, right, think of it as a
bubble, right.
And so when you think about,you know, uh, an unadulterated,
like waveform.
Uh, as it's expanding from itsorigin, you get like this, like
impulse energy, right?
Uh, this, what we call incidentpressure.
Right, that's going everywherein space.
Now, as soon as that uhwaveform and starts interacting
with the environment either thefloor, the walls or the person
(07:49):
we can start getting reflections, and so those reflections also
lead to exposure as well.
So when we talk about blastexposure, we know we're talking
about incident pressure,reflective pressures that can
impact the person talking aboutincident pressure, reflective
pressures that can impact theperson.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Okay, and then for our uninformed here, because
we're getting ready to startdialing into, what can we do
about it is where you come inNow, when that pressure hits the
body, sometimes, from ourunderstanding, it could be two
or more different ways that hitthe body at different times,
depending if they've beenreflected off something and if
the you know, the organs exposeddirectly to the source of the
(08:31):
blast.
So what's the concern?
I mean, obviously you can'tfeel these things right.
I mean everybody just goesthrough, you know, thousands of
them all the time withsupposedly no, you know, impact.
So what's happening to ourbodies when we're exposed to
these waves, when they come out,when they come off the sources?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Well, sure.
So a couple of things areactually happening.
So when you, when you have aperson standing in a blast field
, right, that blast wave isgoing to interact with that
individual.
So as that blast wave starts,you know we're focusing on brain
health with that individual.
So, as that blast wave starts,you know we're focusing on brain
health.
So as that blast wave goesthrough the skull, and if it
(09:13):
makes its way and can make itsway through the skull, then it
interacts with the tissues ofthe brain.
Now, you know there's other waysfor that energy to make its way
into the brain.
So as it interacts with thebody and there's, you know, ways
for the flow of the energy togo up through into the brain.
So, as it's interact cause, itinteracts with the body and
there's, you know, ways for theuh, for the flow of the energy
to go up through into the brainthat way as well.
And so you know when we thinkabout, uh, different ways to
(09:33):
protect ourselves.
Obviously PPE is reallyimportant, but PPE, in addition
to, like helmets and wearingkits, you know chest protectors,
side protectors, back plates,all these other things.
These are all importantmechanisms to help prevent that
blast wave from actuallyimpacting the person's brain.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And once that you know blast exposure is impacting
the organ, what kind of damageis it doing?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, so you know, when it comes to blast, there
are a couple of theories thatwe're currently working off of
on what it's actually doing tothe brain, right, and so
cavitation is an injury thatseems to be leading the
forefront on what is actuallyoccurring inside the tissue of
the brain, different types ofinjury mechanisms to the brain.
(10:27):
It's not quite known today likewhat is actually occurring.
There's a couple good theorieson it, right Cavitation, shear
pressures that are occurringbetween white matter, gray
matter, interfaces, things ofthat nature.
But, like we know, we're stillkind of early in its infancy and
trying to understand like whatis actually occurring in the
brain.
We know the outcome, right, butthe mechanism that leads to
(10:52):
that outcome is still beingexplored.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Okay, and that was my next question is here we are at
2025, right, we just had amilitary veteran take his life,
blow himself up in a Cybertruck,obviously struggling with PTSD.
He's been a, you know, he'sbeen a active duty special
operator since 2005.
You can't really help butwonder if you know the combat
(11:15):
tours, the blast explosion andall that, because everything
that he you know has been saidabout this kid.
You know, obviously, to yourpoint, we know what the outcomes
are.
But here we are in 2025, nofault of yours, I mean, he just
got into this part.
You know 2020 and we're now.
We've known, like CTE or sportsindustries, that this you just
can't do.
(11:36):
The what, the what, what we'vebeen doing for, you know, the
last 20 something years,especially because I'm, you know
, I'm a 1980s soldier.
We trained with sticks, right,ronnie Reagan gave us our first
money, right?
I mean, now these guys andgirls have unlimited access to
ammunition, to rounds, andthey're either training for
combat or in combat, which meansthey've had, you know, the most
(11:58):
significant exposure to blastof any veteran population in the
history of this country.
Right, and I think thatcorresponds with the mental
illness that is driving thestudies, the research and the
funding that you know that areleading to great programs like
yours.
So I mean, and you have anopinion as to why it's taken us
(12:18):
so long to get to this point?
I mean, I don't even think theoutcomes are really that known
that long ago.
To tell you the truth, it'sjust that we had all these
mentally ill patients andveterans.
We have suicide rates to allnine yards and it's just like
man.
Maybe it could be the blastexposure.
You know this is a pretty newarea of research.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, you know.
So, when it comes to like whatthe problem is, right, I think I
think there's, since traumaticbrain injury, tbi, it's kind of
rooted in like uh, contactsports and other types of
mechanisms people falling out ofcar vehicles, uh, other types
(12:58):
of incidents, like sportingincidents that lead to some type
of uh, you know, traumaticbrain injury.
Um, when it comes tounderstanding what the actual
outcome was, I think there wastwo competing theories and the
first one that popped up wasobviously the tau hypothesis
that it's like an extension ofchronic traumatic encephalopathy
or CTE.
Right, and it wasn't until somework by Dan Pearl at USU, that
(13:25):
kind of illustrating that thereis something else that's going
on here, some of those seminalpapers that showed, hey look,
this isn't CTE, this isastroglial scarring.
And when we think about whatthat means to a neuroscientist
like myself, or even to aphysician or a neurosurgeon or
(13:47):
neurologist, we're like, oh,these are different mechanisms,
they have different structuraland functional changes in the
brain, how that impacts, likehow neurons are communicating,
how the brain's communicating,that might be the problem.
But how you treat it, how youaddress it, are different ways.
So I think, by understandingand accepting the fact that it's
okay.
(14:07):
Well, this is a reactivemechanism of astrogliosis, like
you know.
The natural brain's mechanismto prevent itself from injury,
from spreading, could be thepath forward for us to
understand how to treat it right, and that's on the front end,
or left to boom, left to blast,like I like to say, looking for
(14:28):
prevention, mitigationtechniques, detection techniques
, things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And that's where I think we're getting ready to
start talking about what you'redoing right now, because I
talked to Dr Pearl and he waslike, look, we don't find CTE in
veteran branch, okay, sorry.
He's like we find other damage,and we've, and now we can all
agree that there is damage goingon, that mental illness is the
outcome.
That's causing us all thisconcern, cause if there were no
(14:53):
outcomes and our brains couldtake all this stuff, we just
keep training the way we'vealways done, but we've got a big
problem here.
So what?
Now let's talk about, you know,bam, bam 360.
Okay, so what are you focusedon?
What's different and novelabout your approach and unique
and where are you at in thejourney of trying to help our
(15:13):
veterans and our military?
You know our veterans becomehealthier and our military,
looking at you know better waysto.
You know to assess and compileaggregate blast exposure in
order to you know.
You know to assess and compileaggregate blast exposure in
order to you know, monitor thisfor the life of the soldier.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sure, yeah.
So you know, I had the crazyidea of trying to essentially
mirror a program that the DODwas doing for the law
enforcement community, right,but I had the opportunities to
kind of, before I did that, takea step back and say, ok, these
are the things that they'recurrently doing with the Section
734 working group the highs andthe lows and said, ok, what are
(15:54):
the best things that they'redoing to really get in front of
understanding blast overpressureexposure, blast exposure,
exposure and you know a lot ofthis is.
You know, it gave me anopportunity to kind of start
with like a clean slate and say,okay, well, one of the biggest
things that we need to do and dobetter is educating people, and
so we built a comprehensiveprogram.
(16:16):
Part of this comprehensiveprogram that we call Operation
Blue Shield, phase one, is allabout education.
That's what we do.
We educate, increase awarenessabout the problem, blast
overpressure exposure, how itimpacts the brain, um, you know,
people who sit through myseminars or my, my, my debriefs,
uh, learn about how the brainworks, um, and then we sprinkle
(16:39):
in this is blast exposure.
There's a little bit of blackabout blast physics and what
types of pressures come off ofthe weapon systems that they're
commonly around.
So for us, you know, we, whenwe had that opportunity to
create this clean slate, youknow we started we wanted to
make it a comprehensive programand and really get in front of
(17:01):
it.
So education, awareness, phasetwo we do some things where we
can go out and understand moreabout their particular weapon
systems and their environmentsthat they're training in.
So we do weapon mapping, devicemapping in their environments
to understand how pressure isinteracting in those
environments while they'retraining.
(17:23):
Phase two also has a cognitivebaseline component to it.
So one important component whenwe think about brain health
right, is knowing where we aretoday.
Right, because if you're goingto go out into a training
environment, either tacticallyor as an athlete, you should
(17:44):
know where you are today,because unfortunately there are
risks to your brain health andknowing that your profession is
going to pull away from that.
It's good to understand whereyou are today so that in a
couple years it's not yourpartners, it's not your sniffing
others, not your teammates whoare seeing you drift.
It's actually quantified.
(18:04):
And so that's phase two.
Phase three is uh actually animportant component as well.
This is where we actually deployuh blast sensors, wearable
blast sensors to the platoons orunits, um, and then we track
them for about six months we geta good understanding of what
they're being exposed to, theirop tempo and, you know, try to
(18:25):
provide, try to provide reportsthat are what we call actionable
reports throughout the trainingcycle so that they can make
actionable changes followingthose events, so that they can
decrease their exposures overtime.
And then, importantly, withphase four, um mitigation
(18:45):
strategies, um, a postprogrammatic debrief to kind of
pull everything back together sothat they get a full, complete
picture of the of of the programand how it may benefit them.
So for us, we actually launcheda operation blue, launched
Operation Blue Shield with LAPD,metro, deep Platoon.
So their SWAT team and we'vehad the opportunity to work with
(19:11):
some of the most elite unitsand I have to say their
professionalism, the way thatthey approached it, the way that
they took the data and reallykind of absorbed what they were
getting and then applying it tomake their team more resilient
really hats off to them fordoing that.
So, with that being said, youknow there's other things that
(19:33):
we do as well, some mitigation,prevention, mitigation
strategies that we have in thepipeline.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
But so this would be a great program for you know
anybody to have.
That then could be used tojustify a diagnosis and
treatment of a RBE-relateddisorder or impact to their
brain.
So for our audience, let's talkabout the blast.
(19:59):
When we think blast, we thinklike booms, right, huge
concussive blows.
Now I think the OSHA level orthe Department of somebody said
it was like what you can have upto four PSI a day, right, that
was considered the level.
(20:19):
Yeah, you can.
I mean what was like.
So say, somebody's got an AR-15at home and they shoot that
thing off and no air pro, whatkind of decibel level, what kind
of PSI level are you looking at?
Or just explain to our viewershow this is?
You know, how is it measured?
By what's the metrics?
And then give them someexamples from you know, rifles
(20:40):
to .50 cals, to mortars, andwhat's the corresponding PSI or
decibel levels or whatevermeasurements you're using.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Sure, well, it's important to talk about.
When we talk about weapons anddevices, we'd like to talk about
sound as well, right, becauseyou know?
Here's the thing like.
What blast over pressure is isit's a supersonic wave that's
moving faster than the speed ofsound, right?
The way that I like to talkabout it is it moves from
(21:11):
something that you hear tosomething you feel.
Okay that's good.
So, uh, some simple.
You know, right now we'reprobably talking, you know, when
we, when we put things into toreference and how loud things
are, um, there's different waysthat we can measure it, right.
So, uh, dbspl, decibel, soundpressure level, uh, dba, dbb,
(21:35):
which are sound levels, decibels, but put in weights for hearing
, and then we can expand uponthat and say, okay, well, all of
this is just pressure, so wecan move dBs to pascals, pascals
to PSI, okay, okay.
So just for reference, we'reprobably talking about 65 to 70
(21:59):
DBA right now.
That's how loud we're speaking,going back and forth.
A good common reference point,like especially for within the
law enforcement community, ishow loud a siren is.
So, a siren, again, there's acouple things that change
intensity, such as proximity,how close you are to it, but a
(22:20):
siren is about approximately 120dB, okay.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Just for loudness, very loud.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
So very loud, right.
Once we start moving above thatright, there's some, you know,
when we think about hearing,conservation programs at OSHA
and other regulatory bodies havepushed forward.
You know the amount of theintensity, how loud something is
, either measured in DB or orPascal's, and duration, how how
(22:47):
many minutes or hours you couldbe exposed to it before you
started experiencing some typeof temporary hearing change,
before you started experiencingsome type of temporary hearing
change.
Once you get to 140 dB,something happens.
It actually switches over towhat we call impulse noise.
So firearms and other devicesoften fall into this category of
(23:09):
impulse noise.
So when we think about impulsenoise itself, it has to be over
140 dB and under duration ofabout one second.
So very short duration.
So that you know when we thinkabout firearms and other types
of devices, flashbangs or,within the military community,
grenades, artillery you know theintensity and duration are
(23:34):
going to be two differentimportant factors.
So the the, the four PSIcomponent is is is really just
kind of in my mind like aplaceholder right, that's a line
in the sand.
There's data that suggests thatyou know, if you get exposed to
four PSI you're going to havesome lung trauma At some point
you may even you know startexperiencing some hearing
changes, rupture in eardrum At 4PSI, at 4 PSI, yeah.
(23:58):
But the important part,important part of that is that
when we talk about 4 PSI, we'reonly talking about an intensity
measurement.
We're not talking about howmuch energy or the duration of
that, because the shorterduration, the longer duration
that it is, the more likelyyou're going to experience
injury at lower levels.
So so you know, we'll talkabout that in a second, but
(24:24):
we're moving along the spectrum.
So 120 DB is about like a siren.
Um, when we think about like,uh, you know, m four, m4, you
know we're talking about 163 dBDBA.
Now, when you put that intoperspective, 163, again, a lot
of factors go into that lengthof the barrel, how much, how
(24:50):
much power is in that bullet andrange and caliber, all these
other things.
But for like an M4, it's about163 with a 16-inch barrel.
So as you start to think aboutthat, when you now pivot from dB
to pascals, to PSI, you know163 dB is just under 0.5 PSI.
(25:12):
It's like 0.447 PSI.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Okay, so half a PSI is one shot from an AR-15.
So, you've got a 30-roundmagazine.
You're looking at 15 PSI.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well, you know, you can think of it in different
ways, right, I'm just throwingsome math out for everybody,
right?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm from the Massachusetts
educational system so I might beslightly challenged on these
things.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Bruce, you ever shoot a .50?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, so what's that?
Have you ever shot a .50 Cal?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Oh yeah, I own one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So bolt action or semi, Is itthe M107?
Or like a Mark 15 style it's.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Is it the M107 or like a Mark 15 style?
Yeah, it's a Mark 15.
I got well.
I've got a 10 round.
Well, I mean, it was back inthe day, yeah yeah, yeah, so
cross-reference that Okay so an.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
M4, right AR platform , right 55 grain, 65 grains.
You know you're looking atabout a half a PSI, just a hair
under right, right.
So with the .50 cal right nowyou're looking at, you know, 650
, 750 grain type bulletprojectile and the amount of
pressure depends on the lengthof that barrel.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
If, whether or not they're Just a 10 machine gun
that's on a, not even a sniperrifle.
But if you just had a 50 Callike an army guy would have on
top of a trank with that everybarrel.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah, crazy.
So you know when we think abouthow much if it's a.
So here's the thing.
If there's, what type of muzzle, attachment at the end of that
is really important, because ifit's just bare barrel, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
If it's just bare barrel, yeah, yeah, so bare
barrel.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You know the, the, the flow pattern that's coming
out of the, the muzzle there isgoing to be directed more
forward.
However, if you put, like, amuzzle brake on, that energy is
going to go sideways or back,depending on the type of muzzle
brake.
You have right.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Oh, wow, so and I got one on my right too.
Muzzle break, you have Right,oh wow.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So yeah, so yeah, yeah, right, you know it makes
it comfortable, right, it makesit comfortable to shoot Um,
cause you know, I've shot the 50Cal uh semi and bolt action Um
and I have to say, like it's it,it's punishing, unless you have
that muzzle break on there, yep.
So, but you're looking at, youknow, depending on the length of
the barrel and type of ammo,three to four PSI exposure to
(27:37):
the shooter.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
All right.
So barely a limit.
A daily limit is pretty closeto one round.
And what I'm trying to get theviewers to understand is that
you know, in the military andeven in law enforcement, we just
don't fire one round.
I mean, we fire fire hundreds,if not thousands.
Because you know, in the army,I know special forces, we ain't
bringing that back to the asp.
(27:59):
Okay, we're getting rid of allthe carl gustav, whatever we got
, we're bringing back brass.
We're not going to bring backno live rounds.
So we shoot until it's goneright.
And so and that's what we'retrying to hear is just kind of
give the viewer the idea of howmuch a military person, service
member, how much of thisexposure they could have,
(28:21):
because it could be hundreds oftimes, even thousands of times
if you're shooting a lot of .50caliber.
What is recommended just forone day and that's all in one
day.
You get a lifetime of civilianexposure in one day in one day.
You get a lifetime of civilianexposure in one day.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
You know, bruce, one of the things to kind of think
about, because I've just beentalking about weapon
characteristics length of barrel, muzzle break grains, bullet
shooting position right Standing, kneeling, prone, like, if
you're.
You know, most people shoot the.50 cal in a prone position.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
You have to.
You know most people shoot the50 cal in a prone position um.
I've had the opportunity, youknow.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Now Navy SEAL he might stand up and try to shoot
that thing while I'm standing up.
But I I I had the opportunityto uh teach a blast overpressure
section at the uh tack flowAcademy, who that's run by Mark
Lang um and his large caliber uhrifle course, and you know they
teach them how to shoot off atripod.
So I had an opportunity toshoot a 50 cow off a tripod.
Um, you know, I have to saythat, you know it makes it a lot
(29:26):
easier when there's a musclebreak, but more importantly,
when there's when it'ssuppressed.
So you know here.
So here's the mitigation thing.
We're talking about 50 cowsright.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Where does GM 360 take all that?
Now that our readers understandthat, wow, these guys and girls
are taking a lot of exposure,now we know that exposure causes
damage.
Now you've got a programfocused on mitigation.
So where are we with this?
What are you?
What are you?
What are you doing and wheredoes this need to go?
Speaker 2 (29:55):
So a couple of things on the prevention, mitigation
side.
We have a simple tool that weuse to teach operators and
warfighters about overpressurecoming from those weapon systems
.
So it's a product that we callthe Blast Mat, and we have them
for the .50 cal, both bolt andsemi-auto.
We have them for.
Let's talk about it.
(30:17):
Yeah, here's the thing.
It's a great teaching tool,right, because you put the
weapon system down on top of themat and it gives the user the
opportunity to interact with theinvisible.
Right, because now it's acolor-coded mat, like showing
you where a 4PSI is or you knowwhere higher pressures is and
(30:38):
where lower pressures are.
And it gives you, gives theoperator, the ability to kind of
move from one place to another.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Just makes little subtle changes little subtle
changes to.
What's that?
I'm sorry.
So the mat tells them the levelof exposure that they're
getting when they fire.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Unfortunately, it doesn't actually tell them.
It's not an active mat.
Okay, we do have something inthe works to make something more
active, but this is just asimple training tool to teach
people about positioning.
Oh, okay, so when we thinkabout, when we think about, you
know different types ofmitigation strategies.
There's a lot of different waysto you to buy down your
(31:22):
pressure, how much pressureyou're taking.
Right, first off, you can usesimulation simulators and you
know things of that nature.
You can remove fire in theweapon system.
That's not really practical.
That don't work.
Yeah, but there's someadministrative things that you
can do.
Right, you can limit the numberof rounds that they're firing
in a day.
(31:42):
The ANOR, the ALARA types ofprinciples that can be applied
to, you know, help reduceexposures to, you know, try to
optimize operator and warfighterbrain health.
But really, the way that weview the blast mat itself is
(32:03):
it's a tool for operators whoare in an operationally
necessary position.
Right, I need to use thisweapon system, so I need to be
able to know where I should beand shouldn't be, to train
smarter, to reduce how muchpressure I'm taking.
So when we think about, likeyou know, we've reduce how much
pressure I'm taking Um.
So when we think about, likeyou know, we've been talking
about the 50 Cal you know it'suh, that's just one, one type of
of of math that we have.
We have them for all of theartillery, uh, mortar type
(32:26):
systems, even the big stuff, uh,you know, like the tanks and
the M109 Paladin, so that peopleknow where they need to be and
shouldn't be.
So you know, for instance, like, if you ever drop mortars in
your career, like 60s, 80s 120s,81s 160s yeah
(32:46):
yeah.
So, for like, for instance, forthe 81 millimeter mortar, we
have a blast map for the 81millimeter mortar system and you
know, when you're thinkingabout learning how to use that
weapon system, right, you knowreally, what the mat helps
provide is a graphical trainingaid or a visual tool to say,
(33:07):
okay, I need to do when I dropthis mortar in.
I need to.
You know, drop it, then followit all the way down, and then
you can look around in the fieldand say, okay, I need to put my
head here If I put my head here.
I'm going to get one PSI.
If I put it here, I'm going toget three PSI.
It gives the operator toreinforce that training, to
(33:29):
train smarter.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
It sounds like you might have.
Do you get any pushback, likein sports?
Like you know, we talk aboutsubcussive trauma and those
little hits, you know.
Depending on how old thecoaches or the players are, it's
like, ah, that's, you know.
They don't want to hear itright, and so where are you?
So the military, are they being?
I know that some commands arebeing very responsive about the
(33:55):
blast pressure.
Are these?
Are the soldiers now startingto understand that this is
something that they need to takeinto consideration as they
train, because it does impacttheir long-term brain health?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, you know, I have to say that, you know, from
different perspectives, I thinkI'm I'm seeing a change,
especially guys who are on theback nine of their career, who's
been experiencing this stufffor a long time.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Right, and they and they, literally they, they, they
start to see the effects andfeel the effects.
And so these are the guys thatare now being like, okay, we
need to do something for thenext generation, who are on the
first nine on the front, nine oftheir career right, and so
those have been our advocates sofar um, that and that, and
(34:44):
those are the guys that havefought these wars.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
I was talking to, um, a range safety officer for a
shoot house, and you know wealways want to train like we
fight.
But sometimes, like I, I'vebeen through countless doors or
I've been on the door rightwaiting, waiting for that crack.
You know, number one guy,number two guy, you know,
whatever right, I've been in astack and waiting to go in and
then we find out that, insteadof being on the door, if you're
(35:09):
around the corner, your PSI goesto nothing.
Right?
Yep, still get the impact oftraining knowing that, because
what we need to focus on in myturn, my opinion, doctor, is
most of our exposure is comingfrom training.
It's like in football.
You know, if you took all yourgame days and put them against
the amount of days of trainingand practice you had, that's
(35:31):
going to be 80 of your exposure.
So we look at training, um, andnow in combat, you can't control
combat yet in combat We've gotto fight, we've got to kill and
we've got to come alive, and westill have to train to be as
lethal as possible.
But if we know that most ofthis impact is coming from
training, then sometimes wedon't have to train the way we
fight and I know that's going topiss a lot of people off
(35:53):
because they're going to want tobe on the door.
Or you know, I talked to NavySEAL.
He said he used to shoot notonly shoot 20, 30.
Called Gustavs, he was therange safety officer.
At the end of the day hecouldn't feel his fingertips and
he thought it was cool, it'slike I can't do that again.
Right, I'm like dude, right hegoes, now he goes.
(36:14):
Bro, you know I'm having myissues Right and these are all
preventable.
So I think what you're doing isis really engaging, and I mean
it's.
You know, how far are you alongwith DOD?
Is your program being adoptedor are you working with military
entities right now?
Because this is this is hugelyimportant, as this generation is
ready to fight the next war.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, you know.
So, originally, when I formedBAM 360, it was to, you know, to
do more weapon mapping, and Iliterally had a pivoted like a
couple months in after a retiredoperator, swat operator reached
out and you know he wasexplaining the same exact
stories that I've heard over andover and over again.
No-transcript.
(37:26):
We are starting to pivot backbecause, you know, we do have
the abilities to to do a lot ofthese weapon mapping and
facility ma, to be able to helpthem understand what their uh,
what their types of pressuresare receiving, to help buy down
pressure, cause, at the end ofthe day, there's there's there's
(37:47):
a couple of things that youmentioned I wanted to go back to
cause you did.
You did ask me a question Likedo we, do we get any uh pushback
?
Um, some of that pushback isyou know, we, we, we train like
we fight.
Um, some of that pushback isyou know, we, we, we train like
(38:14):
we fight, fight like we train,and we don't want to deviate K
18.
So you're going to take morethan four PSI, um, if that's
operationally necessary, likethat's a decision, that's.
That's that has to happen.
But if it's not operationallynecessary, you don't push back
beyond K 18, maybe go K 35, k 45plus two corners.
(38:35):
Like you know, understand thatthat overpressure is a threat to
your brain health and if youwant to, you know, make it make
it in, like into your, whereveryour career goal is Right.
And that's how I always start,like, I always start off these
conversations with operators andwhenever I give my, my brief on
on the education piece, it'slike where do you want to be?
(38:57):
Like, where are you in yourcareer?
Is this, is this a job?
Is this is is going to be afour to seven year stick for you
, or is are you going to stay inthis for 20, 30 years, right?
Um, because knowing that, youknow you're in it for the long
haul, you might start makingsome changes in your favor,
which is really important to getyou to your goal, right, it's
(39:19):
like okay, you want to retirewith X amount of uh you know
money in the bank.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Well, you know, in one marriage, not three or four,
like all of us, right?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
I mean, everyone's got to start thinking about
their brain or brain health,just like there's.
You know, saving money in thebank, like we, you like, you
have to be able to build thisreserve, like reserve, uh, to be
able to, to get to to thosegoals.
Otherwise, you know, everysingle time you get hit in the
head, every single time you takea uh uh, you know some pressure
from a weapon system, um, youknow I, we, we, we're not diving
into the.
You know the potential geneticcomponents or prior history of
(40:01):
exposure, but all those thingslike can lead into, like you
know, when someone might startexperiencing symptoms.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
And nobody's going to say don't, but you don't have
to train like you're going tofight every day.
Right, once you're the numberman, number one man, that stack
and you got, you've all gotten.
You know that, that feeling,right, that exposure, you know
(40:30):
that's what we're going to dowhen we're in.
When we're in, when it's gametime, okay, now can you go
around the corner and justpractice your flow drills and
other things that are just asimportant as experiencing that
shockwave, but also, you know,going in there and dominating
your field.
You know your sectors of fireto hold everything that you do
and go do that particular job.
So I think, yeah, to your point, we have to train like we fight
, but we don't have to trainevery day.
(40:51):
And I've told a lot ofcommanders it's like, look, man,
we are.
You know, you can only be asgood.
You know, once you're good witha weapon system, right, you're
good, right, you got to go at itall the time, you know, and so,
and then the other part is, ifour special operators you know,
if I paid as much attention tomy brain health as I did to my
physical health all right,running, lifting, diving,
(41:16):
swimming, doing everything Icould to be, you know I was, you
know be a green beret, right?
I mean physical fitness, youknow, was next to my job.
But my job skills, physicalfitness, was right there.
I mean that was like sex, right, I mean physical fitness, sex,
alcohol, they all had.
They all encompassed like myentire life when I was a soldier
(41:37):
.
It's all I cared about, right?
Am I fit, can I do my job?
And you know where's my beerand I'd like a little bit of
love, right, that's how I liveand that's how a lot of our guys
live.
And they are now and I think toyour point, they're now
starting to understand howvaluable this is.
And I got to take care of thisbecause otherwise all this other
stuff is going to go away andI'm not going to be good at my
(41:57):
job, I'm not going to be good atrelationships, I'm not going to
.
My physical fitness is going togo to crap.
I mean, we talk to so manyveterans right now, dr Engel,
that are they don't even get upand they can't even work out
because they are just hurting,because they didn't take care of
this, because we didn't know.
And nobody's pointing anyfingers, man, I was talking to
some four stars about this stuff.
(42:19):
It's like nobody's looking toblame anybody.
We're looking like what do wedo now?
And the now is, yeah, I mean,we've got to train effectively,
we've got to train to be lethal,but since 9-11, doc, these guys
and girls have been going at itand we're paying the price,
whether it's mental illness,whether it's suicidality, broken
(42:45):
marriages, broken relationships.
This price is being paid.
These kids did nothing wrong.
They volunteered for themilitary, they did their job and
, unfortunately, they got hurt.
Now we've got it, and so talk alittle bit about this.
We don't have too much moretime, but talk about the.
Are you doing anything on thediagnosis side to identify
people that?
I mean?
I'm sure you heard about anMBEV or a GBEV.
We don't have an idea how muchyou can have, of course, because
(43:08):
the brain is different foreverybody.
But on the diagnosis side, doyou have any like?
We have people listening rightnow that might be some of these
folks right now, that might besome of these folks, right?
So, from the you know,diagnosis side, what is your
program doing to help usidentify the folks that might
need help, that might not beaware?
Speaker 2 (43:25):
of?
Yeah, so you know the thingsthat we're doing on the
diagnosis treatment side.
We're forming partnerships withparticular companies that are
in the diagnostic space, and soyou know one of the things that
you can kind of think about,right, I always like to say this
like proof's in the pudding,right, if you start having
symptoms, you're out.
(43:47):
You're in your second year,your fourth year, your 10th year
, your 15th year.
You know symptoms are, you know, unfortunately, are what
guiding us.
And I'm a firm believer that youknow, outside of cognitive
changes and behavioral changes,there are little subtle tells
that you have had a traumaticbrain injury or have currently a
(44:08):
traumatic brain injury.
And I think, where you know,I'm a really big proponent of
eye tracking and measuringpeople, like cupulometry and eye
tracking type of stuff, becausereally, at the end of the day,
like eye tracking, I think isgoing to be one of those things
that help with the diagnosis ofa TBI or concussion or
(44:30):
non-concussive injury, right,because, at the end of the day,
like our eyes there's, when youthink about what controls our
eyes, the, the circuitry thatgoes into it in our brain stem,
and then you know, uh, helpingus pick targets, things that are
cortically mediated um, I thinkeye tracking is is one of those
technologies that we're goingto see more of in the future.
(44:52):
Uh, when we think about thediagnosis of, uh, um, any type
of traumatic brain injury as awhole, yeah, I'd like to know
more about that.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
We've been looking for, like a pupilometry app to
put on the phone to recommend toparents, because you know the
kids will say I had a concussion, like watch this little thing
right, or whatever, however theywant.
So I mean that would be anamazing, you know, ability to
help us.
And then, of course, to yourpoint.
You know we, we have to educateour community that these
cognitive, behavioral andpsychological changes that your
husband or your partner's goingthrough, right, or your wife,
(45:28):
you know, could be related totheir job and they need help.
It's not, it's not theirchildhood, right, it's not that
they might've seen a couple ofbodies, it could be right,
there's psychological trauma,but it also could be the changes
that their jobs cause.
So I mean, how?
Speaker 2 (45:44):
the brain works, neural circuitries that lead to
memories, things of that nature,and how brain injury can alter
(46:04):
those circuits to really havesomeone re-experience something
in real time that may just be adistant memory.
So those are all interestingthings that when you think about
what potentially traumaticbrain injury is doing to how we
process information and retrieveinformation.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
That's amazing.
Well, doc, I really appreciatethe time you spent with us today
.
This is outstanding and Ireally thank you for the work
you've done and we want to knowmore we're going to we'd love to
stay in touch with you.
We have a, you know, acommunity of providers that are
that treat, you know, veteransthat have been diagnosed with
RBN, you know, to include lawenforcement officers.
(46:45):
There's a lot of beta approachesout there to brain health that
you know aren't covered by theFDA and we're working on that
with the VA.
So love to know more about you,because that program is could
be part of some of therecommendations we're making to
Congress right now to implementchanges instead of just talking
about it, you know, and gettingoff our butts when it comes to
these veterans and lawenforcement officers that have
(47:06):
been impacted by their careers.
So, man hats off to you.
Please stay in touch with usand before we go, how do people
find you?
Talk a little bit aboutyourself and what you have going
on and let people know whatthey can do to stay in touch
with you.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Sure Well, you can find out more about what we do.
Go to our website,wwwbam360.com.
B-a-a-m 360.
Talks a little bit about whatwe do and how to get a hold of
us.
You can reach out to medirectly if you have any
questions about the program.
(47:44):
There are other things you cando as well.
If you're curious on differentapproaches to brain health, I
have a bunch of differentresources for you guys as well.
So if you're interested inunderstanding more about blast
or understanding more abouttraumatic brain injury, or if
you're someone within the lawenforcement community or a
(48:06):
veteran in the law enforcementcommunity and you're struggling,
we do have resources throughour partners as well, through
Copline and the Ohio State.
That, I think, would be reallybeneficial for you guys.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
We'll be reaching out , because the one thing that's
lacking for our veterans rightnow is a resource guide to
repetitive blast exposure, andwe're working on that right now.
So we'd love to work with youon it and get something out
there for our veterans thatwould be a more informed book
guide, whatever for them tounderstand what is going on and
(48:39):
then what to do.
You know, what do I do now?
Right, you know I've alreadyleft, I'm already suffering.
What do I do now?
So, yeah, love the work, drJames Engel, bam 360.
Thank you so much for whatyou're doing, your dedication to
our service members, and welook forward to seeing you on
the show again.
Sir, take care.
Thanks, bruce.
Hey folks, welcome back to another edition of
Broken Brains with yours trulyBruce Parkman, where we look at
the issue of repetitive braintrauma, especially through
repetitive head impacts insports and repetitive blast
exposure to our militaryveterans, and we look at how
this exposure has impacted notonly their brains but their
lives and what we have to do asa society to identify, diagnose
(00:33):
and treat these individuals andthen do a beta job to make
sports and military service safe.
We look at researchers andscientists, patients, advocates
and people across the spectrumof brain health and brain
support and bring them on theshow so that you're informed
about this, because this is anuntouched subject in America
(00:53):
right now.
It's the largest preventablecause of mental illness in our
adult populations and we are notdoing enough for it right now.
On our guest today, veryexcited to have Dr James Engel
on board.
He represents a product calledBlast Analytics and Mitigation,
or BAM360, and they're focuseduniquely right now on the
(01:17):
identification, diagnosis andtreatment of individuals from
the issue of repetitive blastexposure, that is, the exposure
of their brain, their body, tothe multiplicity of blasts they
take with high-caliber weaponry,indirect fire, weapon systems,
explosives, yada, yada.
Dr Carver earned his PhD from UCDavis, and his research focused
(01:39):
on both the structural andfunctional neuroplasticity of
the brain to injury and normalaging process.
He was a postdoctoral researchfellow at the University of
Arizona, where he continued hisresearch on normal and
pathological brain aging, and hepivoted from academia to
industry as a clinicalneuropsychologist to help
(02:00):
optimize outcomes for bothhigh-risk brain and spine
surgeries, while specializing inmicroelectrode recordings to
facilitate deep brainstimulating electrode placement
for the treatment of motordisorders.
In 2017, he got the itch to getback into research and joined
an ongoing research program thatwas a collaboration with the
(02:23):
Naval Special WarfareInvestigating Training
Associated Blast, and he wasinstrumental to the US, the
USHUS CONCORPROGRAMS blastmonitoring efforts, and I think
I met you at the USHUSconference early this year or I
we, because I was there talkingabout that and is the architect
of their weapons mapping program.
He launched BAM, which is theprogram we're getting ready to
(02:45):
talk about here in 2020, anddeveloped the first
comprehensive blast monitoringprogram called Operation Blue
Shield for high-risk operatorsin the law enforcement community
.
We have a lot to talk about.
Dr Engel, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Thank you so much, Bruce, for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Hey, no.
So you've been through a lot,man, and we don't find a lot of
people that are focused on theissue of repetitive blast
exposure.
So what got you here and thenwhat are you trying to do about
it?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, what got me here is actually my interest in
trying to understand, likenormal aging brain and how it
degrades over time, eitherthrough normal processes or
through pathological processesover time.
Either through normal processesor through pathological
processes.
And you know, essentially, whenI jumped into this, you know the
blast world it was almost byhappenstance.
The research program was lookingfor someone who specialized a
(03:34):
systems neuroscientist, whospecialized in multiple domains,
and I fit the bill Down theroad.
I inevitably led the projectbefore it closed and they
shifted over to the CONCRETEprogram proper where they were
doing a lot of pilot blastmonitoring, where I essentially
helped design a bunch of reportsthat are currently circulating
(03:58):
throughout the DoD.
I was also tasked to do someweapon mapping of all the
different types of weaponsystems that people have been
reporting on, everything fromsmall arms to the large caliber
shoulder-mounted weapons andhowitzers, artillery, etc.
And so I'm really excited abouttalking to you today about our
(04:21):
current efforts, what I'mcurrently doing within the law
enforcement community day, aboutour current efforts, what I'm
currently doing within the lawenforcement community, because,
as you know, they're alsoexposed to repetitive low-level
blast throughout their op tempo,either through full-time or
collateral duty.
These guys are also taking abunch of hits throughout their
careers.
So that's a little bit about meand kind of what we're doing.
I'd love to get more into thetopic.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, man.
No, I love it because we reallydon't associate blast exposure,
repetitive at impacts, with lawenforcement.
Okay, other than they might getin a fight right.
So with that populationspecifically.
Interestingly, where are theygetting the most of their
impacts from?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay.
So a couple of things.
When it comes to lawenforcement, depending if
they're full-time or collateralduty, most of these guys are
again getting most of theirblast exposure in training, just
like in the military, in fact,I think their blast exposure
large caliber rifles you know338, 50 cal breaching, wall
breaching, door breaching andalso shotgun breaching.
(05:23):
And lastly, from energetics youknow just throwing flashbangs
and you know clearing rooms,things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
All right, yeah, and a lot of people don't know that
our law enforcement, you knowour law enforcement officers,
are heavily involved in thesetypes of training, just like the
military.
And, yeah, to your point, theyprobably don't execute them as
much in, say, combat.
And really needed that we rightnow, given the fact that our,
you know, wars are kind ofdeclared over, but you know,
(06:04):
that's interesting and it's veryinteresting.
So when we talk about blastexposure to our viewer, what are
you calling blast exposure?
How are these waves areproduced and what parts of the
body are they impacting and howare they impacting?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Sure.
So when you think about thesource right, like an explosion
or from a weapon system goingoff, you know there's either a
high explosive or some type ofpropellant that's burning right,
that suddenly sets off a charge, right, and so you have, like
this source, this energy that'srapidly expanding from the
(06:39):
source Now within a weaponsystem.
You know if it's inside of a,like a large caliber rifle, it's
that you know the, the, theprimer, is going to be struck
and the bullets going to theprojectiles and come out at the
end of the barrel.
But all of that force that'sgetting that projectile out of
the barrel is what's going to beproducing overpressure.
Now, that might be.
You know, that's just onesource.
(07:00):
Another source is obviouslyfrom, like a door charge
breaching a wall, breaching adoor charge breaching a wall,
breaching a door, making a highexplosive or other sources like
an energetic, like a flashback.
So when we think about the, youknow how it's occurring.
Again, there's rapid transientchange, pressure that's leaving
that weapon system or device.
Now, what it's doing I thinkthat was your second question as
(07:26):
it's expanding from its sourceright, right, think of it as a
bubble, right.
And so when you think about,you know, uh, an unadulterated,
like waveform.
Uh, as it's expanding from itsorigin, you get like this, like
impulse energy, right?
Uh, this, what we call incidentpressure.
Right, that's going everywherein space.
Now, as soon as that uhwaveform and starts interacting
with the environment either thefloor, the walls or the person
(07:49):
we can start getting reflections, and so those reflections also
lead to exposure as well.
So when we talk about blastexposure, we know we're talking
about incident pressure,reflective pressures that can
impact the person talking aboutincident pressure, reflective
pressures that can impact theperson.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Okay, and then for our uninformed here, because
we're getting ready to startdialing into, what can we do
about it is where you come inNow, when that pressure hits the
body, sometimes, from ourunderstanding, it could be two
or more different ways that hitthe body at different times,
depending if they've beenreflected off something and if
the you know, the organs exposeddirectly to the source of the
(08:31):
blast.
So what's the concern?
I mean, obviously you can'tfeel these things right.
I mean everybody just goesthrough, you know, thousands of
them all the time withsupposedly no, you know, impact.
So what's happening to ourbodies when we're exposed to
these waves, when they come out,when they come off the sources?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Well, sure.
So a couple of things areactually happening.
So when you, when you have aperson standing in a blast field
, right, that blast wave isgoing to interact with that
individual.
So as that blast wave starts,you know we're focusing on brain
health with that individual.
So, as that blast wave starts,you know we're focusing on brain
health.
So as that blast wave goesthrough the skull, and if it
(09:13):
makes its way and can make itsway through the skull, then it
interacts with the tissues ofthe brain.
Now, you know there's other waysfor that energy to make its way
into the brain.
So as it interacts with thebody and there's, you know, ways
for the flow of the energy togo up through into the brain.
So, as it's interact cause, itinteracts with the body and
there's, you know, ways for theuh, for the flow of the energy
to go up through into the brainthat way as well.
And so you know when we thinkabout, uh, different ways to
(09:33):
protect ourselves.
Obviously PPE is reallyimportant, but PPE, in addition
to, like helmets and wearingkits, you know chest protectors,
side protectors, back plates,all these other things.
These are all importantmechanisms to help prevent that
blast wave from actuallyimpacting the person's brain.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And once that you know blast exposure is impacting
the organ, what kind of damageis it doing?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, so you know, when it comes to blast, there
are a couple of theories thatwe're currently working off of
on what it's actually doing tothe brain, right, and so
cavitation is an injury thatseems to be leading the
forefront on what is actuallyoccurring inside the tissue of
the brain, different types ofinjury mechanisms to the brain.
(10:27):
It's not quite known today likewhat is actually occurring.
There's a couple good theorieson it, right Cavitation, shear
pressures that are occurringbetween white matter, gray
matter, interfaces, things ofthat nature.
But, like we know, we're stillkind of early in its infancy and
trying to understand like whatis actually occurring in the
brain.
We know the outcome, right, butthe mechanism that leads to
(10:52):
that outcome is still beingexplored.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Okay, and that was my next question is here we are at
2025, right, we just had amilitary veteran take his life,
blow himself up in a Cybertruck,obviously struggling with PTSD.
He's been a, you know, he'sbeen a active duty special
operator since 2005.
You can't really help butwonder if you know the combat
(11:15):
tours, the blast explosion andall that, because everything
that he you know has been saidabout this kid.
You know, obviously, to yourpoint, we know what the outcomes
are.
But here we are in 2025, nofault of yours, I mean, he just
got into this part.
You know 2020 and we're now.
We've known, like CTE or sportsindustries, that this you just
can't do.
(11:36):
The what, the what, what we'vebeen doing for, you know, the
last 20 something years,especially because I'm, you know
, I'm a 1980s soldier.
We trained with sticks, right,ronnie Reagan gave us our first
money, right?
I mean, now these guys andgirls have unlimited access to
ammunition, to rounds, andthey're either training for
combat or in combat, which meansthey've had, you know, the most
(11:58):
significant exposure to blastof any veteran population in the
history of this country.
Right, and I think thatcorresponds with the mental
illness that is driving thestudies, the research and the
funding that you know that areleading to great programs like
yours.
So I mean, and you have anopinion as to why it's taken us
(12:18):
so long to get to this point?
I mean, I don't even think theoutcomes are really that known
that long ago.
To tell you the truth, it'sjust that we had all these
mentally ill patients andveterans.
We have suicide rates to allnine yards and it's just like
man.
Maybe it could be the blastexposure.
You know this is a pretty newarea of research.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, you know.
So, when it comes to like whatthe problem is, right, I think I
think there's, since traumaticbrain injury, tbi, it's kind of
rooted in like uh, contactsports and other types of
mechanisms people falling out ofcar vehicles, uh, other types
(12:58):
of incidents, like sportingincidents that lead to some type
of uh, you know, traumaticbrain injury.
Um, when it comes tounderstanding what the actual
outcome was, I think there wastwo competing theories and the
first one that popped up wasobviously the tau hypothesis
that it's like an extension ofchronic traumatic encephalopathy
or CTE.
Right, and it wasn't until somework by Dan Pearl at USU, that
(13:25):
kind of illustrating that thereis something else that's going
on here, some of those seminalpapers that showed, hey look,
this isn't CTE, this isastroglial scarring.
And when we think about whatthat means to a neuroscientist
like myself, or even to aphysician or a neurosurgeon or
(13:47):
neurologist, we're like, oh,these are different mechanisms,
they have different structuraland functional changes in the
brain, how that impacts, likehow neurons are communicating,
how the brain's communicating,that might be the problem.
But how you treat it, how youaddress it, are different ways.
So I think, by understandingand accepting the fact that it's
okay.
(14:07):
Well, this is a reactivemechanism of astrogliosis, like
you know.
The natural brain's mechanismto prevent itself from injury,
from spreading, could be thepath forward for us to
understand how to treat it right, and that's on the front end,
or left to boom, left to blast,like I like to say, looking for
(14:28):
prevention, mitigationtechniques, detection techniques
, things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And that's where I think we're getting ready to
start talking about what you'redoing right now, because I
talked to Dr Pearl and he waslike, look, we don't find CTE in
veteran branch, okay, sorry.
He's like we find other damage,and we've, and now we can all
agree that there is damage goingon, that mental illness is the
outcome.
That's causing us all thisconcern, cause if there were no
(14:53):
outcomes and our brains couldtake all this stuff, we just
keep training the way we'vealways done, but we've got a big
problem here.
So what?
Now let's talk about, you know,bam, bam 360.
Okay, so what are you focusedon?
What's different and novelabout your approach and unique
and where are you at in thejourney of trying to help our
(15:13):
veterans and our military?
You know our veterans becomehealthier and our military,
looking at you know better waysto.
You know to assess and compileaggregate blast exposure in
order to you know.
You know to assess and compileaggregate blast exposure in
order to you know, monitor thisfor the life of the soldier.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sure, yeah.
So you know, I had the crazyidea of trying to essentially
mirror a program that the DODwas doing for the law
enforcement community, right,but I had the opportunities to
kind of, before I did that, takea step back and say, ok, these
are the things that they'recurrently doing with the Section
734 working group the highs andthe lows and said, ok, what are
(15:54):
the best things that they'redoing to really get in front of
understanding blast overpressureexposure, blast exposure,
exposure and you know a lot ofthis is.
You know, it gave me anopportunity to kind of start
with like a clean slate and say,okay, well, one of the biggest
things that we need to do and dobetter is educating people, and
so we built a comprehensiveprogram.
(16:16):
Part of this comprehensiveprogram that we call Operation
Blue Shield, phase one, is allabout education.
That's what we do.
We educate, increase awarenessabout the problem, blast
overpressure exposure, how itimpacts the brain, um, you know,
people who sit through myseminars or my, my, my debriefs,
uh, learn about how the brainworks, um, and then we sprinkle
(16:39):
in this is blast exposure.
There's a little bit of blackabout blast physics and what
types of pressures come off ofthe weapon systems that they're
commonly around.
So for us, you know, we, whenwe had that opportunity to
create this clean slate, youknow we started we wanted to
make it a comprehensive programand and really get in front of
(17:01):
it.
So education, awareness, phasetwo we do some things where we
can go out and understand moreabout their particular weapon
systems and their environmentsthat they're training in.
So we do weapon mapping, devicemapping in their environments
to understand how pressure isinteracting in those
environments while they'retraining.
(17:23):
Phase two also has a cognitivebaseline component to it.
So one important component whenwe think about brain health
right, is knowing where we aretoday.
Right, because if you're goingto go out into a training
environment, either tacticallyor as an athlete, you should
(17:44):
know where you are today,because unfortunately there are
risks to your brain health andknowing that your profession is
going to pull away from that.
It's good to understand whereyou are today so that in a
couple years it's not yourpartners, it's not your sniffing
others, not your teammates whoare seeing you drift.
It's actually quantified.
(18:04):
And so that's phase two.
Phase three is uh actually animportant component as well.
This is where we actually deployuh blast sensors, wearable
blast sensors to the platoons orunits, um, and then we track
them for about six months we geta good understanding of what
they're being exposed to, theirop tempo and, you know, try to
(18:25):
provide, try to provide reportsthat are what we call actionable
reports throughout the trainingcycle so that they can make
actionable changes followingthose events, so that they can
decrease their exposures overtime.
And then, importantly, withphase four, um mitigation
(18:45):
strategies, um, a postprogrammatic debrief to kind of
pull everything back together sothat they get a full, complete
picture of the of of the programand how it may benefit them.
So for us, we actually launcheda operation blue, launched
Operation Blue Shield with LAPD,metro, deep Platoon.
So their SWAT team and we'vehad the opportunity to work with
(19:11):
some of the most elite unitsand I have to say their
professionalism, the way thatthey approached it, the way that
they took the data and reallykind of absorbed what they were
getting and then applying it tomake their team more resilient
really hats off to them fordoing that.
So, with that being said, youknow there's other things that
(19:33):
we do as well, some mitigation,prevention, mitigation
strategies that we have in thepipeline.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
But so this would be a great program for you know
anybody to have.
That then could be used tojustify a diagnosis and
treatment of a RBE-relateddisorder or impact to their
brain.
So for our audience, let's talkabout the blast.
(19:59):
When we think blast, we thinklike booms, right, huge
concussive blows.
Now I think the OSHA level orthe Department of somebody said
it was like what you can have upto four PSI a day, right, that
was considered the level.
(20:19):
Yeah, you can.
I mean what was like.
So say, somebody's got an AR-15at home and they shoot that
thing off and no air pro, whatkind of decibel level, what kind
of PSI level are you looking at?
Or just explain to our viewershow this is?
You know, how is it measured?
By what's the metrics?
And then give them someexamples from you know, rifles
(20:40):
to .50 cals, to mortars, andwhat's the corresponding PSI or
decibel levels or whatevermeasurements you're using.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Sure, well, it's important to talk about.
When we talk about weapons anddevices, we'd like to talk about
sound as well, right, becauseyou know?
Here's the thing like.
What blast over pressure is isit's a supersonic wave that's
moving faster than the speed ofsound, right?
The way that I like to talkabout it is it moves from
(21:11):
something that you hear tosomething you feel.
Okay that's good.
So, uh, some simple.
You know, right now we'reprobably talking, you know, when
we, when we put things into toreference and how loud things
are, um, there's different waysthat we can measure it, right.
So, uh, dbspl, decibel, soundpressure level, uh, dba, dbb,
(21:35):
which are sound levels, decibels, but put in weights for hearing
, and then we can expand uponthat and say, okay, well, all of
this is just pressure, so wecan move dBs to pascals, pascals
to PSI, okay, okay.
So just for reference, we'reprobably talking about 65 to 70
(21:59):
DBA right now.
That's how loud we're speaking,going back and forth.
A good common reference point,like especially for within the
law enforcement community, ishow loud a siren is.
So, a siren, again, there's acouple things that change
intensity, such as proximity,how close you are to it, but a
(22:20):
siren is about approximately 120dB, okay.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Just for loudness, very loud.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
So very loud, right.
Once we start moving above thatright, there's some, you know,
when we think about hearing,conservation programs at OSHA
and other regulatory bodies havepushed forward.
You know the amount of theintensity, how loud something is
, either measured in DB or orPascal's, and duration, how how
(22:47):
many minutes or hours you couldbe exposed to it before you
started experiencing some typeof temporary hearing change,
before you started experiencingsome type of temporary hearing
change.
Once you get to 140 dB,something happens.
It actually switches over towhat we call impulse noise.
So firearms and other devicesoften fall into this category of
(23:09):
impulse noise.
So when we think about impulsenoise itself, it has to be over
140 dB and under duration ofabout one second.
So very short duration.
So that you know when we thinkabout firearms and other types
of devices, flashbangs or,within the military community,
grenades, artillery you know theintensity and duration are
(23:34):
going to be two differentimportant factors.
So the the, the four PSIcomponent is is is really just
kind of in my mind like aplaceholder right, that's a line
in the sand.
There's data that suggests thatyou know, if you get exposed to
four PSI you're going to havesome lung trauma At some point
you may even you know startexperiencing some hearing
changes, rupture in eardrum At 4PSI, at 4 PSI, yeah.
(23:58):
But the important part,important part of that is that
when we talk about 4 PSI, we'reonly talking about an intensity
measurement.
We're not talking about howmuch energy or the duration of
that, because the shorterduration, the longer duration
that it is, the more likelyyou're going to experience
injury at lower levels.
So so you know, we'll talkabout that in a second, but
(24:24):
we're moving along the spectrum.
So 120 DB is about like a siren.
Um, when we think about like,uh, you know, m four, m4, you
know we're talking about 163 dBDBA.
Now, when you put that intoperspective, 163, again, a lot
of factors go into that lengthof the barrel, how much, how
(24:50):
much power is in that bullet andrange and caliber, all these
other things.
But for like an M4, it's about163 with a 16-inch barrel.
So as you start to think aboutthat, when you now pivot from dB
to pascals, to PSI, you know163 dB is just under 0.5 PSI.
(25:12):
It's like 0.447 PSI.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Okay, so half a PSI is one shot from an AR-15.
So, you've got a 30-roundmagazine.
You're looking at 15 PSI.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well, you know, you can think of it in different
ways, right, I'm just throwingsome math out for everybody,
right?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm from the Massachusetts
educational system so I might beslightly challenged on these
things.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Bruce, you ever shoot a .50?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, so what's that?
Have you ever shot a .50 Cal?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Oh yeah, I own one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So bolt action or semi, Is itthe M107?
Or like a Mark 15 style it's.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Is it the M107 or like a Mark 15 style?
Yeah, it's a Mark 15.
I got well.
I've got a 10 round.
Well, I mean, it was back inthe day, yeah yeah, yeah, so
cross-reference that Okay so an.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
M4, right AR platform , right 55 grain, 65 grains.
You know you're looking atabout a half a PSI, just a hair
under right, right.
So with the .50 cal right nowyou're looking at, you know, 650
, 750 grain type bulletprojectile and the amount of
pressure depends on the lengthof that barrel.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
If, whether or not they're Just a 10 machine gun
that's on a, not even a sniperrifle.
But if you just had a 50 Callike an army guy would have on
top of a trank with that everybarrel.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah, crazy.
So you know when we think abouthow much if it's a.
So here's the thing.
If there's, what type of muzzle, attachment at the end of that
is really important, because ifit's just bare barrel, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
If it's just bare barrel, yeah, yeah, so bare
barrel.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You know the, the, the flow pattern that's coming
out of the, the muzzle there isgoing to be directed more
forward.
However, if you put, like, amuzzle brake on, that energy is
going to go sideways or back,depending on the type of muzzle
brake.
You have right.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Oh, wow, so and I got one on my right too.
Muzzle break, you have Right,oh wow.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So yeah, so yeah, yeah, right, you know it makes
it comfortable, right, it makesit comfortable to shoot Um,
cause you know, I've shot the 50Cal uh semi and bolt action Um
and I have to say, like it's it,it's punishing, unless you have
that muzzle break on there, yep.
So, but you're looking at, youknow, depending on the length of
the barrel and type of ammo,three to four PSI exposure to
(27:37):
the shooter.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
All right.
So barely a limit.
A daily limit is pretty closeto one round.
And what I'm trying to get theviewers to understand is that
you know, in the military andeven in law enforcement, we just
don't fire one round.
I mean, we fire fire hundreds,if not thousands.
Because you know, in the army,I know special forces, we ain't
bringing that back to the asp.
(27:59):
Okay, we're getting rid of allthe carl gustav, whatever we got
, we're bringing back brass.
We're not going to bring backno live rounds.
So we shoot until it's goneright.
And so and that's what we'retrying to hear is just kind of
give the viewer the idea of howmuch a military person, service
member, how much of thisexposure they could have,
(28:21):
because it could be hundreds oftimes, even thousands of times
if you're shooting a lot of .50caliber.
What is recommended just forone day and that's all in one
day.
You get a lifetime of civilianexposure in one day in one day.
You get a lifetime of civilianexposure in one day.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
You know, bruce, one of the things to kind of think
about, because I've just beentalking about weapon
characteristics length of barrel, muzzle break grains, bullet
shooting position right Standing, kneeling, prone, like, if
you're.
You know, most people shoot the.50 cal in a prone position.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
You have to.
You know most people shoot the50 cal in a prone position um.
I've had the opportunity, youknow.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Now Navy SEAL he might stand up and try to shoot
that thing while I'm standing up.
But I I I had the opportunityto uh teach a blast overpressure
section at the uh tack flowAcademy, who that's run by Mark
Lang um and his large caliber uhrifle course, and you know they
teach them how to shoot off atripod.
So I had an opportunity toshoot a 50 cow off a tripod.
Um, you know, I have to saythat, you know it makes it a lot
(29:26):
easier when there's a musclebreak, but more importantly,
when there's when it'ssuppressed.
So you know here.
So here's the mitigation thing.
We're talking about 50 cowsright.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Where does GM 360 take all that?
Now that our readers understandthat, wow, these guys and girls
are taking a lot of exposure,now we know that exposure causes
damage.
Now you've got a programfocused on mitigation.
So where are we with this?
What are you?
What are you?
What are you doing and wheredoes this need to go?
Speaker 2 (29:55):
So a couple of things on the prevention, mitigation
side.
We have a simple tool that weuse to teach operators and
warfighters about overpressurecoming from those weapon systems
.
So it's a product that we callthe Blast Mat, and we have them
for the .50 cal, both bolt andsemi-auto.
We have them for.
Let's talk about it.
(30:17):
Yeah, here's the thing.
It's a great teaching tool,right, because you put the
weapon system down on top of themat and it gives the user the
opportunity to interact with theinvisible.
Right, because now it's acolor-coded mat, like showing
you where a 4PSI is or you knowwhere higher pressures is and
(30:38):
where lower pressures are.
And it gives you, gives theoperator, the ability to kind of
move from one place to another.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Just makes little subtle changes little subtle
changes to.
What's that?
I'm sorry.
So the mat tells them the levelof exposure that they're
getting when they fire.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Unfortunately, it doesn't actually tell them.
It's not an active mat.
Okay, we do have something inthe works to make something more
active, but this is just asimple training tool to teach
people about positioning.
Oh, okay, so when we thinkabout, when we think about, you
know different types ofmitigation strategies.
There's a lot of different waysto you to buy down your
(31:22):
pressure, how much pressureyou're taking.
Right, first off, you can usesimulation simulators and you
know things of that nature.
You can remove fire in theweapon system.
That's not really practical.
That don't work.
Yeah, but there's someadministrative things that you
can do.
Right, you can limit the numberof rounds that they're firing
in a day.
(31:42):
The ANOR, the ALARA types ofprinciples that can be applied
to, you know, help reduceexposures to, you know, try to
optimize operator and warfighterbrain health.
But really, the way that weview the blast mat itself is
(32:03):
it's a tool for operators whoare in an operationally
necessary position.
Right, I need to use thisweapon system, so I need to be
able to know where I should beand shouldn't be, to train
smarter, to reduce how muchpressure I'm taking.
So when we think about, likeyou know, we've reduce how much
pressure I'm taking Um.
So when we think about, likeyou know, we've been talking
about the 50 Cal you know it'suh, that's just one, one type of
of of math that we have.
We have them for all of theartillery, uh, mortar type
(32:26):
systems, even the big stuff, uh,you know, like the tanks and
the M109 Paladin, so that peopleknow where they need to be and
shouldn't be.
So you know, for instance, like, if you ever drop mortars in
your career, like 60s, 80s 120s,81s 160s yeah
(32:46):
yeah.
So, for like, for instance, forthe 81 millimeter mortar, we
have a blast map for the 81millimeter mortar system and you
know, when you're thinkingabout learning how to use that
weapon system, right, you knowreally, what the mat helps
provide is a graphical trainingaid or a visual tool to say,
(33:07):
okay, I need to do when I dropthis mortar in.
I need to.
You know, drop it, then followit all the way down, and then
you can look around in the fieldand say, okay, I need to put my
head here If I put my head here.
I'm going to get one PSI.
If I put it here, I'm going toget three PSI.
It gives the operator toreinforce that training, to
(33:29):
train smarter.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
It sounds like you might have.
Do you get any pushback, likein sports?
Like you know, we talk aboutsubcussive trauma and those
little hits, you know.
Depending on how old thecoaches or the players are, it's
like, ah, that's, you know.
They don't want to hear itright, and so where are you?
So the military, are they being?
I know that some commands arebeing very responsive about the
(33:55):
blast pressure.
Are these?
Are the soldiers now startingto understand that this is
something that they need to takeinto consideration as they
train, because it does impacttheir long-term brain health?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, you know, I have to say that, you know, from
different perspectives, I thinkI'm I'm seeing a change,
especially guys who are on theback nine of their career, who's
been experiencing this stufffor a long time.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Right, and they and they, literally they, they, they
start to see the effects andfeel the effects.
And so these are the guys thatare now being like, okay, we
need to do something for thenext generation, who are on the
first nine on the front, nine oftheir career right, and so
those have been our advocates sofar um, that and that, and
(34:44):
those are the guys that havefought these wars.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
I was talking to, um, a range safety officer for a
shoot house, and you know wealways want to train like we
fight.
But sometimes, like I, I'vebeen through countless doors or
I've been on the door rightwaiting, waiting for that crack.
You know, number one guy,number two guy, you know,
whatever right, I've been in astack and waiting to go in and
then we find out that, insteadof being on the door, if you're
(35:09):
around the corner, your PSI goesto nothing.
Right?
Yep, still get the impact oftraining knowing that, because
what we need to focus on in myturn, my opinion, doctor, is
most of our exposure is comingfrom training.
It's like in football.
You know, if you took all yourgame days and put them against
the amount of days of trainingand practice you had, that's
(35:31):
going to be 80 of your exposure.
So we look at training, um, andnow in combat, you can't control
combat yet in combat We've gotto fight, we've got to kill and
we've got to come alive, and westill have to train to be as
lethal as possible.
But if we know that most ofthis impact is coming from
training, then sometimes wedon't have to train the way we
fight and I know that's going topiss a lot of people off
(35:53):
because they're going to want tobe on the door.
Or you know, I talked to NavySEAL.
He said he used to shoot notonly shoot 20, 30.
Called Gustavs, he was therange safety officer.
At the end of the day hecouldn't feel his fingertips and
he thought it was cool, it'slike I can't do that again.
Right, I'm like dude, right hegoes, now he goes.
(36:14):
Bro, you know I'm having myissues Right and these are all
preventable.
So I think what you're doing isis really engaging, and I mean
it's.
You know, how far are you alongwith DOD?
Is your program being adoptedor are you working with military
entities right now?
Because this is this is hugelyimportant, as this generation is
ready to fight the next war.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, you know.
So, originally, when I formedBAM 360, it was to, you know, to
do more weapon mapping, and Iliterally had a pivoted like a
couple months in after a retiredoperator, swat operator reached
out and you know he wasexplaining the same exact
stories that I've heard over andover and over again.
No-transcript.
(37:26):
We are starting to pivot backbecause, you know, we do have
the abilities to to do a lot ofthese weapon mapping and
facility ma, to be able to helpthem understand what their uh,
what their types of pressuresare receiving, to help buy down
pressure, cause, at the end ofthe day, there's there's there's
(37:47):
a couple of things that youmentioned I wanted to go back to
cause you did.
You did ask me a question Likedo we, do we get any uh pushback
?
Um, some of that pushback isyou know, we, we, we train like
we fight.
Um, some of that pushback isyou know, we, we, we train like
(38:14):
we fight, fight like we train,and we don't want to deviate K
18.
So you're going to take morethan four PSI, um, if that's
operationally necessary, likethat's a decision, that's.
That's that has to happen.
But if it's not operationallynecessary, you don't push back
beyond K 18, maybe go K 35, k 45plus two corners.
(38:35):
Like you know, understand thatthat overpressure is a threat to
your brain health and if youwant to, you know, make it make
it in, like into your, whereveryour career goal is Right.
And that's how I always start,like, I always start off these
conversations with operators andwhenever I give my, my brief on
on the education piece, it'slike where do you want to be?
(38:57):
Like, where are you in yourcareer?
Is this, is this a job?
Is this is is going to be afour to seven year stick for you
, or is are you going to stay inthis for 20, 30 years, right?
Um, because knowing that, youknow you're in it for the long
haul, you might start makingsome changes in your favor,
which is really important to getyou to your goal, right, it's
(39:19):
like okay, you want to retirewith X amount of uh you know
money in the bank.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Well, you know, in one marriage, not three or four,
like all of us, right?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
I mean, everyone's got to start thinking about
their brain or brain health,just like there's.
You know, saving money in thebank, like we, you like, you
have to be able to build thisreserve, like reserve, uh, to be
able to, to get to to thosegoals.
Otherwise, you know, everysingle time you get hit in the
head, every single time you takea uh uh, you know some pressure
from a weapon system, um, youknow I, we, we, we're not diving
into the.
You know the potential geneticcomponents or prior history of
(40:01):
exposure, but all those thingslike can lead into, like you
know, when someone might startexperiencing symptoms.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
And nobody's going to say don't, but you don't have
to train like you're going tofight every day.
Right, once you're the numberman, number one man, that stack
and you got, you've all gotten.
You know that, that feeling,right, that exposure, you know
(40:30):
that's what we're going to dowhen we're in.
When we're in, when it's gametime, okay, now can you go
around the corner and justpractice your flow drills and
other things that are just asimportant as experiencing that
shockwave, but also, you know,going in there and dominating
your field.
You know your sectors of fireto hold everything that you do
and go do that particular job.
So I think, yeah, to your point, we have to train like we fight
, but we don't have to trainevery day.
(40:51):
And I've told a lot ofcommanders it's like, look, man,
we are.
You know, you can only be asgood.
You know, once you're good witha weapon system, right, you're
good, right, you got to go at itall the time, you know, and so,
and then the other part is, ifour special operators you know,
if I paid as much attention tomy brain health as I did to my
physical health all right,running, lifting, diving,
(41:16):
swimming, doing everything Icould to be, you know I was, you
know be a green beret, right?
I mean physical fitness, youknow, was next to my job.
But my job skills, physicalfitness, was right there.
I mean that was like sex, right, I mean physical fitness, sex,
alcohol, they all had.
They all encompassed like myentire life when I was a soldier
(41:37):
.
It's all I cared about, right?
Am I fit, can I do my job?
And you know where's my beerand I'd like a little bit of
love, right, that's how I liveand that's how a lot of our guys
live.
And they are now and I think toyour point, they're now
starting to understand howvaluable this is.
And I got to take care of thisbecause otherwise all this other
stuff is going to go away andI'm not going to be good at my
(41:57):
job, I'm not going to be good atrelationships, I'm not going to
.
My physical fitness is going togo to crap.
I mean, we talk to so manyveterans right now, dr Engel,
that are they don't even get upand they can't even work out
because they are just hurting,because they didn't take care of
this, because we didn't know.
And nobody's pointing anyfingers, man, I was talking to
some four stars about this stuff.
(42:19):
It's like nobody's looking toblame anybody.
We're looking like what do wedo now?
And the now is, yeah, I mean,we've got to train effectively,
we've got to train to be lethal,but since 9-11, doc, these guys
and girls have been going at itand we're paying the price,
whether it's mental illness,whether it's suicidality, broken
(42:45):
marriages, broken relationships.
This price is being paid.
These kids did nothing wrong.
They volunteered for themilitary, they did their job and
, unfortunately, they got hurt.
Now we've got it, and so talk alittle bit about this.
We don't have too much moretime, but talk about the.
Are you doing anything on thediagnosis side to identify
people that?
I mean?
I'm sure you heard about anMBEV or a GBEV.
We don't have an idea how muchyou can have, of course, because
(43:08):
the brain is different foreverybody.
But on the diagnosis side, doyou have any like?
We have people listening rightnow that might be some of these
folks right now, that might besome of these folks, right?
So, from the you know,diagnosis side, what is your
program doing to help usidentify the folks that might
need help, that might not beaware?
Speaker 2 (43:25):
of?
Yeah, so you know the thingsthat we're doing on the
diagnosis treatment side.
We're forming partnerships withparticular companies that are
in the diagnostic space, and soyou know one of the things that
you can kind of think about,right, I always like to say this
like proof's in the pudding,right, if you start having
symptoms, you're out.
(43:47):
You're in your second year,your fourth year, your 10th year
, your 15th year.
You know symptoms are, you know, unfortunately, are what
guiding us.
And I'm a firm believer that youknow, outside of cognitive
changes and behavioral changes,there are little subtle tells
that you have had a traumaticbrain injury or have currently a
(44:08):
traumatic brain injury.
And I think, where you know,I'm a really big proponent of
eye tracking and measuringpeople, like cupulometry and eye
tracking type of stuff, becausereally, at the end of the day,
like eye tracking, I think isgoing to be one of those things
that help with the diagnosis ofa TBI or concussion or
(44:30):
non-concussive injury, right,because, at the end of the day,
like our eyes there's, when youthink about what controls our
eyes, the, the circuitry thatgoes into it in our brain stem,
and then you know, uh, helpingus pick targets, things that are
cortically mediated um, I thinkeye tracking is is one of those
technologies that we're goingto see more of in the future.
(44:52):
Uh, when we think about thediagnosis of, uh, um, any type
of traumatic brain injury as awhole, yeah, I'd like to know
more about that.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
We've been looking for, like a pupilometry app to
put on the phone to recommend toparents, because you know the
kids will say I had a concussion, like watch this little thing
right, or whatever, however theywant.
So I mean that would be anamazing, you know, ability to
help us.
And then, of course, to yourpoint.
You know we, we have to educateour community that these
cognitive, behavioral andpsychological changes that your
husband or your partner's goingthrough, right, or your wife,
(45:28):
you know, could be related totheir job and they need help.
It's not, it's not theirchildhood, right, it's not that
they might've seen a couple ofbodies, it could be right,
there's psychological trauma,but it also could be the changes
that their jobs cause.
So I mean, how?
Speaker 2 (45:44):
the brain works, neural circuitries that lead to
memories, things of that nature,and how brain injury can alter
(46:04):
those circuits to really havesomeone re-experience something
in real time that may just be adistant memory.
So those are all interestingthings that when you think about
what potentially traumaticbrain injury is doing to how we
process information and retrieveinformation.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
That's amazing.
Well, doc, I really appreciatethe time you spent with us today
.
This is outstanding and Ireally thank you for the work
you've done and we want to knowmore we're going to we'd love to
stay in touch with you.
We have a, you know, acommunity of providers that are
that treat, you know, veteransthat have been diagnosed with
RBN, you know, to include lawenforcement officers.
(46:45):
There's a lot of beta approachesout there to brain health that
you know aren't covered by theFDA and we're working on that
with the VA.
So love to know more about you,because that program is could
be part of some of therecommendations we're making to
Congress right now to implementchanges instead of just talking
about it, you know, and gettingoff our butts when it comes to
these veterans and lawenforcement officers that have
(47:06):
been impacted by their careers.
So, man hats off to you.
Please stay in touch with usand before we go, how do people
find you?
Talk a little bit aboutyourself and what you have going
on and let people know whatthey can do to stay in touch
with you.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Sure Well, you can find out more about what we do.
Go to our website,wwwbam360.com.
B-a-a-m 360.
Talks a little bit about whatwe do and how to get a hold of
us.
You can reach out to medirectly if you have any
questions about the program.
(47:44):
There are other things you cando as well.
If you're curious on differentapproaches to brain health, I
have a bunch of differentresources for you guys as well.
So if you're interested inunderstanding more about blast
or understanding more abouttraumatic brain injury, or if
you're someone within the lawenforcement community or a
(48:06):
veteran in the law enforcementcommunity and you're struggling,
we do have resources throughour partners as well, through
Copline and the Ohio State.
That, I think, would be reallybeneficial for you guys.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
We'll be reaching out , because the one thing that's
lacking for our veterans rightnow is a resource guide to
repetitive blast exposure, andwe're working on that right now.
So we'd love to work with youon it and get something out
there for our veterans thatwould be a more informed book
guide, whatever for them tounderstand what is going on and
(48:39):
then what to do.
You know, what do I do now?
Right, you know I've alreadyleft, I'm already suffering.
What do I do now?
So, yeah, love the work, drJames Engel, bam 360.
Thank you so much for whatyou're doing, your dedication to
our service members, and welook forward to seeing you on
the show again.
Sir, take care.
Thanks, bruce.
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