April 28, 2025 • 51 mins
What happens when a former NHL enforcer turns his battle with brain trauma into a mission for mental health advocacy?
In this powerful episode of Broken Brains, host Bruce Parkman sits down with Daniel Carcillo, former NHL player and founder of Wesana Health, to discuss the long-term impacts of concussions, traumatic brain injuries (TBI), and the mental health struggles faced by athletes and veterans alike. Daniel shares his deeply personal journey from the highs of professional hockey to the devastating effects of repetitive brain trauma—and how psilocybin therapy offered him a path to healing.
They dive into:
- The hidden mental health crisis in professional sports and the military
- The science behind psilocybin, neuroplasticity, and brain healing
- Why integration and therapeutic use are critical for successful recovery
- The barriers posed by Big Pharma and the need for alternative treatments
- Real-life success stories of individuals overcoming trauma through innovative therapies
This conversation sheds light on the urgent need for better brain health solutions, greater community advocacy, and a shift in how we support those affected by brain injuries.
If you care about brain health, mental resilience, and the future of trauma recovery, this episode is a must-listen.
📣 Call to Action:
If you or someone you love is navigating concussion recovery or wants to learn more about cutting-edge brain injury treatments, this episode is for you.
💥 Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe to Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman on your favorite platform to help us spread awareness and save lives.
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Brain Health Advocacy
02:47 Daniel Carcillo: A Journey from NHL to Advocacy
11:22 The Impact of Concussions on Mental Health
15:52 Finding Healing: The Role of Psilocybin
21:10 Challenges with NHL Support Systems
24:04 The Grueling Schedule of Professional Sports
24:48 Exploring Psilocybin's Impact on Brain Health
25:10 Research and Studies on Psilocybin
27:00 Therapeutic Use of Psilocybin
29:22 Integration and Lifestyle Changes Post-Treatment
31:15 Scientific Studies Supporting Psilocybin's Efficacy
32:08 Challenges with Big Pharma and Quality Control
35:07 The Importance of Longitudinal Data
38:15 Real-Life Success Stories with Psilocybin
40:03 The Need for Alternative Treatments
42:23 Future of Psilocybin Research and Accessibility
46:24 Connecting with the Community and Resources
https://www.mpfact.com/headsmart-app/
Instagram: danielcarcillo13
Website: www.experienceonward.com
Produced by Security Halt Media
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation, where wework at the issue.
Look at the issue of repetitivebrain trauma in the forms of
repetitive head impacts fromcontact sports, repetitive blast
exposures for our veteranpopulation, and what these
(00:34):
conditions are doing to thebrains of our kids, our athletes
and our veterans and causing,right now, the largest
preventable cause of mentalillness in this country now the
largest preventable cause ofmental illness in this country.
We reach out to players andadvocates and researchers,
scientists, authors, whoever isin this space, because this is
not taught in any medical,nursing or psychological
curriculum.
(00:55):
So you need to be informed tomake the best decision for
yourself and how to addressbrain health, how to take care
of your kids and how to help usall make sports safer, because
they can be made safer as wemove forward.
With us today is another amazingguest, thanks to our producer,
denny Caballero, who's alwaysbringing these amazing folks on
(01:15):
our show.
Love to have him.
And we have today Daniel Garcia, who's our first NHL player to
get on the show.
Mr Garcia is a former NHLplayer and if they show, mr
Garcia was a former NHL playerand if they're like Marines,
they're never former.
Once an NHL player, always anNHL player.
He's a two-time Stanley Cupwinner man with the Chicago
Blackhawks and a now-renownedadvocate for brain health and
(01:37):
mental well-being, which wealways love to see players
getting into space because it'sso necessary.
He played left wing in the NHLfor 10 seasons, earning a
reputation as a hard-nosedenforcer, the bad guy on the ice
, and is now known for his workwith individuals suffering from
effects of concussions andmental health challenges.
And since he's left the NHLright now he has been eminently
(02:01):
engaged in the space, is helpingout other players, other kids,
other parents in space.
Um, he retired in 2015, but hefounded a nonprofit organization
to assist former NFL player NHLplayers dealing with
post-concussion syndrome andmental health issues.
He currently serves as CEO ofWasana health, a company focused
on using psilocybin basedmedicine for the treatment of
(02:23):
traumatic brain injuries.
Boy, we got a lot to talk abouton that one.
He speaks at a lot of events.
He's a vocal advocate forconcussion awareness and he's
personally experienced theeffects of multiple concussions
you think after 10 years in theNHL and including a diagnosis of
post-concussion syndrome, whichhas led him to this advocacy
work, mr Carcio.
(02:43):
What a resume, what areputation, what a career.
Welcome to the show, sir.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thanks for having me, Bruce.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I love it, man.
So, dude, where are you fromoriginally?
Obviously you're from Canada,europe.
I mean, how did you get intohockey, man?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, Canada.
As soon as you're born, you'repretty much born with skates on.
As soon as you can walk, theystick you on the ice.
It was a small town.
Everything really revolvedaround the community rink.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
It's called King City , ontario, no kidding.
So did you have an actual rinkor did you skate on like ponds
and stuff like we did inMassachusetts?
When I was growing up, we usedcranberry bogs all the time,
yeah we did both.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
We, you know, we had, uh, a local mom under the
bridge kind of dropped thebowling ball and would tell us
when we could, you know, get onthe ponds and stuff.
Uh, we had a backyard rink andthen you know, there's a rink on
every corner.
They're open all year round incanada.
So, uh, it was a meld of thosethree things all right.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So you, you were up there, way up north, with a with
the ices around year round.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, yeah, I mean the snowfall was pretty
predominant.
It's definitely less now, butyeah, no, definitely we were
pretty north of the city.
And then you get up intoSudbury and North Bay and Sault
Ste Marie and those towns areconstantly, you know, constantly
covered.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Dude, yeah, I remember sometimes if the ice
was thick enough, they'd havethe pickup trucks actually go
out there and plow the snow.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, we'd do the ice fishing Like my dad had a hut
that we would just, you know,pull with a snowmobile, or
sometimes a truck, onto the ice,so definitely thick enough for
that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Dude, cool beans man.
So where did you go to school?
I mean, where did you playhockey in college?
Or did you play hockey?
Did you just go right in?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, no, we went right in.
So there's kind of you knowthere's a fast track system with
with hockey.
I was actually drafted as 16,turning 17.
So in high school and then assoon as I graduated high school
I, um, uh, turned pro at 19,.
You know, around like 15 or 16,you have the decision to either
(04:50):
go to college or at least startlooking at universities or play
in the league called theCanadian hockey league, which
really fast tracks you, andthat's where a lot of the scouts
were.
Uh, you know you're playingagainst 16 to 21 year olds and I
went to a few school visits butI figured you know why be
behind the eight ball.
I thought I was good enough.
I thought I was strong enoughthat I could break into the
(05:12):
league.
Maybe not at 19 or 20.
But after a couple years in theAHL I thought I could
definitely get there faster andno point in going to school and
waiting until I was 23 or 24 totry to get in.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Cool beans man.
So basically, how long did ittake you to get drafted into the
NHL.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I mean unconsciously, since I started around four
years old when I really noticedthat I probably had a pretty
decent shot if I continued towork hard and outwork people.
Probably at 13, 14 years oldpeople were starting to take
notice.
I was never the biggest, I wasnever the best.
(05:51):
I played AA, which is kind of alevel down from AAA.
There were about 700,000 kidsin Ontario alone that were
playing hockey, so it was reallyreally competitive and I had an
opportunity to make a AAA team,got drafted in the sixth round
to an OHL team, moved away at 16, drafted 73rd overall to the
(06:12):
NHL and just kind of kept makingmy way up and just kept working
as an underdog.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Dude.
So you're in the NHL at 17years old.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
You're drafted yeah, 17, turning 18.
Yep, you're drafted.
And then you start going to procamps.
You know, that year, andthere's only a select few guys
that you know turn pro rightaway and get right into the NHL,
typically like first roundersand second, third, fourth
rounders.
You got to continue to makeyour way up through the
developmental league, which isthe American Hockey League it's
(06:43):
one level down from the NHL andthen you start playing well and
you start getting noticed by theorganization.
They either bring you up or, ifthere's a little bit of a
pecking order, like there was inmy situation, I was drafted to
the Penguins.
I knew that I was ready to playand there were just so many
guys in front of me that itdidn't really matter how well I
(07:04):
played.
So I asked for a trade andended up getting traded a year
and a half into my pro career toPhoenix Arizona and started my
NHL career there in I think itwas 05, 06.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Wow man, I never knew how this stuff played and you
know.
It's just, you read about itand you know stuff like that and
I think, actually I thinkyou're the I think you're the
second professional hockeyplayer I've talked to.
I met a guy that played withthe Bruins a long time ago and
he runs a sports clinic.
I'm talking about how we canmake the sport safer so that
(07:41):
people can play the entire timeand retire from the NHL, nfl,
any world rugby and not havebrain problems.
Right, there's a, there's a wayforward to it.
So, so in your life, from thetime you retired, from the time
you start playing hockey, I mean, how how many years did you
play competitive hockey?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Competitively.
You know, the rules weredifferent back when I started,
right, we were hitting right atthree, four years old.
So I mean, yeah, I started, youknow, I'd say about like 25
years, 26 years, you know,because I retired early at 30.
It was because of just theeffects of concussion and I just
was really, you know, justaffecting balance and hand-eye
(08:20):
coordination and symptoms likeheadaches, head pressure,
insomnia.
It was just impossible tocontinue to do my job.
But 10 years is a really longtime to play in the NHL,
especially when you fight 164times.
And my job was to get as manyhits as possible, and I was good
(08:41):
at it, but it comes at a cost.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, so not only were you checking and hitting
the ice, all the time, you'regetting punched in the head too,
just for the.
You know that was your job.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was an enforcer.
I uh, I mean, I was good at thegame.
It wasn't like I was one ofthose um, kind of you know
heavyweights that just went outand at the beginning of the game
just kind of dropped theirgloves.
I would make you know peopleearn it, uh, or I would go earn
it myself.
But you know, it was reallyused as a tool to shift the
momentum of a game to, you know,if you weren't having kind of
(09:16):
the best start to just, you know, show the guys that you were
there to battle and and yourteammates appreciate it.
And then usually the next shiftand the shift after that you
start to gain some momentum andwithin a game you know,
especially professional sports,there's there's very little room
for error and and so momentumplays a very big role in in the
(09:36):
bounces that you get and createfor yourself and winning a game
or a series.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Dang you ever have one of your coach go, hey man,
go start a fight.
We need to, we need to, we needto flop the momentum or
anything like that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Um, they don't, they don't, they don't, they say it
without saying it.
So yeah they'll, well, they'llput you.
They'll never say, go start afight, but what they'll do is
they'll, they'll change.
Maybe one guy or two guys off aface off, maybe one guy or two
guys off a face-off, and thenthe guy that you're lined up
with is you know, you know whofights on the other side all the
(10:09):
time, right, you do yourresearch and so you know they
say it without, and then youknow like that's you know,
having your finger on the pulseof how the game's going is.
It's a skill and I knew thatpretty intimately and for a long
time, like I reveled in it.
You know, I really likedhurting people and I, you know
(10:31):
the only other time that peoplestand up and cheers when you
know a goal scored or there's afight.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So good on you, man.
I mean hey, we all got ourroles right.
I played semi-pro rugby for along time, man, and my role is
just stick my head in there andcome out with the ball somehow.
Nice, I didn't even know how topass.
I mean, I played semi-pro rugbyfor decades.
I never even passed the ball,we just had.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's funny you mentioned that we just had a
bunch of UK boxers and somerugby players and they're going
through a concussion lawsuitright now, but we're starting to
treat some people from acrossthe pond there using mushrooms
at our center and we're trackingdata and it's been going well.
We just did our first cohort ofeight individuals and some UFC,
(11:23):
some bare knuckle boxers and,um, and yeah, we just, we just
all met the other day and peoplehave been, you know, their
lives have been changed, uh, forthe better.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So yeah, let's get into that a little bit.
So, yeah, no, absolutely, causeI want to dial into psilocybin.
It's one of the treatments thatwe highly recommend, um, as
part as as part of thelegislation that we have in
Congress right now for veterans.
We're trying to parallel thattrack for athletes and um get
that going.
So you noticed that you knowthe, the sport was taking its
toll on you and basically, youhad to leave the sport because
(11:55):
of its impact on your brain andum, and and physical health.
What about mental health?
Were you struggling?
I mean, obviously you werereveling and fighting.
I mean, that's just who you are.
You know other times, you knowthe.
You know the the anger, theimpulsivity and the rage come
from.
You know, you know the damageto the brain.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's also done by the sport yeah, if I look back on
my career, I can see how I wasdealing with, like a lot of, you
know, depression, anxiety orwhat could be framed as that.
But also, you know, I'm thetype of person that likes to use
things as fuel and so you know,I could also see that some
forms of the self-sabotage werelikely because I was
(12:38):
self-medicating because of theinjuries that I was kind of
dealing with that were, you know, underlined or underpinned,
just feeling so different, Uh,but also, you know, trauma in a
big way um, fueled me, right,you know I was, I was angry, Uh,
(13:00):
I just liked the physicality ofof the game.
I liked being able to look atsomebody you know in the eye and
and test and then have themtest me to see how strong I am,
to see how far I'll go, Lessabout for the team, but more so
just personally.
And I'm still very much kind oflike that.
That dog is still in me.
It just comes out in differentways now, right, In
(13:22):
entrepreneurship and that sortof thing.
But my sixth and seventhconcussion, which were the last
two years of being in the league, so 2014 to 2015,.
The symptoms were really,really bad.
So, on top of the headaches,head pressure, the insomnia, the
impulse control issues.
(13:42):
I was definitely dealing withanxiety, depression and then
suicidality, Especially when Iwalked away from the game.
When you're not getting sleepand then you have all of these
kind of things that are that arehappening to you and you go
from being a professionalathlete to sitting at home with
(14:02):
your wife and a newborn, youstart to really realize how sick
you are, how slow you are, youknow, compared to other people,
and I think a part of that, abig part of that, was obviously
the brain chemistry and theyears of abuse.
Um, you know, being so physicalin the body and the brain but
then also having no purpose.
(14:23):
I think people, men especially,can deteriorate without that
community and purpose.
So that definitely happened tome and it got really scary for
for a really long time.
Um, I've had a lot of friendsthat didn't make it out that,
you know, CT was all over theirbrain and and for whatever
reason, they, they just, youknow, couldn't figure it out.
(14:44):
So I feel blessed that, youknow, I was able to to find a
medicine that that saved my life.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So when you got out, I mean and we deal with this on
the military side too you know,depression and anxiety, mental
health issues are very prominentin first responders,
professional athletes in themilitary because you spend a
such a long segment of your lifein a an environment of you know
, just say, let's just say,manliness, right, I mean,
(15:13):
whether you're shooting guns,going to combat, you're playing,
you know a sport or you'resaving lives, right.
Then you leave it, right andit's like silence and we don't
know how to deal with silence.
How did you take the steps toavoid you know, some of the
tragedies that happened withprofessional athletes in the
same spot, right, and this iswe're talking.
(15:36):
You know almost everybody Iknow that plays professional
sports, contact sports is hurt,okay, whether they're rugby
players, football players, nhlplayers, whatever, right.
So you know, obviously you werein a hole and thank the Lord
that you know you startedclimbing out.
What was the impetus for you tostart saying I've got to do
something?
And then what led you to themedicine that you know that that
(15:58):
helped you, uh, get back andbecome who you are.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, so 2015,.
The year started with me havingwe we had our first, uh, our
first child.
So Austin was born in 2014.
The season starts in Septemberand then, leading into 2015, my
best friend, steve Monador,passed away.
He had 19 documentedconcussions in the NHL, and so I
(16:27):
just saw a lot of the samesymptoms in myself that I saw in
him, that we were obviouslytalking about when he retired
and what he was struggling with.
And then in March, I had myseventh concussion and then at
the end of the year, we won thecup again, and that was my
second.
And I just thought that, withthe symptoms from the seventh
concussion and how bad they were, I still never recovered.
(16:49):
I just knew that if I keptgoing on that way, there was a
high likelihood that my brainwas just going to stop working
forever.
So I made the decision to stopbased off of those symptoms.
And then I went into themedical system and luckily, I
had means.
I had all the means in theworld to get the best care and
(17:13):
unfortunately, what I startedwith was listening to doctors
prescribe me these syntheticpharmaceuticals for a number of
years to manage symptoms whichthen exasperated others.
So when I got off of those.
I had a couple seizures whichmade my situation a little bit
worse, and then I started to goto these kind of cash pay
(17:33):
neurological strokerehabilitation, concussion
rehabilitation clinics, startedto really learn about the brain
diagnostics and went to thesekind of intensive week-long
programs.
But I could only sustain thatfor like a year and a half
because, number one, it was justso expensive and number two,
like the treatments just didn'treally take hold, you know.
(17:56):
And so then I started to kindof be resounded to the fact of
listening to theseneuroscientists saying, well,
we've done everything we can foryou, so now it's time to just
manage these symptoms and live anew normal which is what a lot
of concussion survivors, youknow, hear and live a new normal
, which is what a lot ofconcussion survivors hear.
So I started to do float tanks,hyperbaric chamber, mox,
(18:16):
acupuncture, cranial sacralthings like that, just to kind
of manage the days and all thiswhile I was reading PubMed
papers.
So I was reading anything thatI could on what the new science
was saying about any medicinescoming out or anything for the
brain.
And then I came across a studyin 2000, I think it was 2017, it
(18:42):
was published in 14, it was byRobin Card Harris, imperial
College of London of a brain onpsilocybin under fMRI and what I
saw was this kind ofoveractivity of communication
with left and right brainhemispheres and I just a light
went off and said, hey, thatmight work for you, just based
off of what I was listening tofrom the diagnostics from these
clinics and the neuroscientists,etc.
(19:03):
So, luckily, in 2019, I took aninvitation to Denver which,
where magic mushrooms are stillinside and was decriminalized at
the time.
So I knew I couldn't getarrested and I took a really
high dose and before I left Itook some diagnostics.
So I took a QEG, I took bloodwork because I knew that if this
(19:26):
could work, then there's a lotof stigma associated with it, so
I'd need some kind of backupdata and at that point I was big
on this kind of data collection.
So I did it on myself.
And then I did two high dosesacross six months and I went
back to the neurologist orneuroscientist that kind of gave
(19:47):
me the scans and they couldn'tfind any abnormalities in my
brain and then my blood work wascompletely clear.
And they asked me well, whathave you been doing?
And I said I've been focusingon my sleep.
I did two high doses ofmushrooms, I did some
microdosing and then I havesupplements of lion's mane and
reishi and cordyceps and chagathese other legal, usda
(20:08):
certified organic mushrooms thathelp support, you know,
anti-inflammatory benefits ofthe brain, the body and they,
you know, they wouldn't likeeven look at it.
You know, because at this pointthere weren't that many studies
out, but now there's a lot thatpromote this idea of
(20:29):
neuroplasticity that you know wegot it wrong.
Right, the brain doesn't stopgrowing at 21.
It continues to if youintroduce the right substances
and you have the right lifestyle.
It continues to be able to beplacid enough to make these new
neuronal connections aroundthese dead neurons.
So you know that was in 2020, Ireally started talking about
(20:52):
this, right?
No-transcript.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
So you found this.
I mean you found this path allby yourself.
When you got out, where was theNHL on this?
Did they offer you any?
You know, I mean obviously thatthey offer you any.
You know, I mean I meanobviously.
And this is one of my ongoingpresses against the NFL and in
the V, in the, in the military,like when I retired 21 years as
a green beret.
(21:41):
You know I've been shot in theface, all you know, blown up.
I shot, I've shot so manybullets I don't even go to range
.
They bought, they bored me,right.
But the military does anassessment center, right, we
find all this stuff wrong thatyou didn't have when you came in
.
We own this and, right or wrong, the VA says, hey, we're going
to take care of it, all right.
And yet you know we're talkingabout a sport where you
(22:04):
dedicated yourself from three orfour all the way up until 2015.
So before three, I doubt youhad the kind of damage that was
found with your QEG and FMR whenyou retired.
Obviously, this is due,dedicated.
You know it's due to the hockeyright, it's due to your sport,
your commitment, your passion.
Right Was the NHL.
You know.
(22:24):
You know they would they?
Did they have any programs oranything to help you with at all
?
Do you get any medical supportor anything like that?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
No, no, I, no, I was a little bit like jaded from
what had happened to Steve andhe was such a big part of the
union, the NHLPA.
But once you stop either workingfor them or paying your dues,
if you're not playing, you'renot necessarily, you know, I
(22:54):
wouldn't say you're not welcome,but they're not going to,
they're not going to go out oftheir way to help.
And we all pay for healthcareand you could tap into
healthcare, but the only thingthat can be prescribed are these
FDA approved medications right,that we know work, you know
less than 7% of the time andcome with these crippling side
(23:14):
effects.
I think people are waking up tothat now.
So, no, there wasn't muchsupport.
I honestly, to be honest, Ididn't want their support.
We talked a little bit aboutthese transition programs
because I had such a hard timetransitioning and I think
they're doing a little bit of abetter job of it now through the
NHL as well.
(23:35):
So, no, you know, I think onceyou stop kind of producing and
playing for the corporations orfor the leagues or for the teams
, then, um, you know, you'rekind of yeah, you're kind of on
your own.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Wow, okay, I mean, you know, not pointing fingers.
What I'm looking at is how dowe change this right?
How do we get you know peopleto you know, or the
organizations to professionalleagues to say, look, man, these
young men dedicate themselvesto our sport.
You know, you guys are likegladiators, right?
You give us our, you know forfootball, our Sundays with our
(24:10):
Doritos and our beer, you know.
And on the hockey, I mean, youguys play so many games, dude, I
don't even know it was a lot.
Yeah, how many games in NHLC?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
82.
82.
And then, yeah, so it's, butit's over 184 days, I think.
So you're 40, obviously 41 areat home and 41 are on the road,
so it's a pretty gruelingschedule.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Dude yeah, nuts, so all right.
So all right, you put yourself,you know, on the way back and
then you know, obviously, youknow, have you tried?
I mean, so all right.
So let's talk about psilocybin.
Tell us about the impact it hason brains.
I mean, you've mentioned newneural connections and increased
plasticity.
Connections and increasedplasticity.
(24:53):
You know, tell our, our members, um, you know, you know, from a
, from a, a brain damageperspective, from subconcussive
trauma, uh, you know how longdid it take?
You you said you took two highdoses.
Was that, you know, one in oneor in in in micro dose, along?
Or you know what are the, whatare the protocols that you know
that you went through and there,and, uh, what do you?
What the protocols that youknow that you went through and
(25:18):
they're in, uh, what are you,what are you finding out?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
psilocybin, because I mean, we talk about all the
time and obviously you're you'redevoted to it.
What do our listeners need toknow about this, about this
medicine?
Yeah, so I will say so and letme just address, um, I do want
to say something just about thelike, the leagues and stuff,
right, so what?
What we have that we areputting together right now is
the first inhuman longitudinalobservational study with QEGs,
(25:40):
which are the brain scans gotmicrobiome genetic testing blood
.
So we're putting that together.
We just did our first eightcohorts, as I mentioned a little
earlier, with the boxers andrugby players and UFC fighters.
So that's exciting and that'ssomething that I think, because
there is so much research thereisn't an FDA approved medicine
(26:02):
yet, but there is so much that'sbeen done in the way of proving
that this neuroplasticity ishappening and how it could be
good for not only concussion butneurodegenerative disease
through, like Johns Hopkins andNYU, langone and some serious
academic institutions that Ithink, if we put together this
program and put it in front ofthe NHLPA, I'm hopeful, and even
(26:26):
the UFC, and I'm hopeful eitherthey help with recruitment, um,
or maybe funding, and so, um,you know, that's kind of the
next step of of you know howmaybe they can get involved for
your listeners.
You know I want to start with,there's obviously two different
ways to do this right that a lotof people hear about.
They hear about, kind ofrecreationally, going to a
(26:47):
concert and doing, you know, asmall dose um.
But what we're talking abouthere, in the context of of
healing the brain and the bodyand the spirit from depression,
anxiety, any number of thesepsychiatric and neurological
disorders, is we do thistherapeutically.
So this is a Schedule Isubstance.
(27:07):
So that means that it's illegal, federally illegal, similar to
how cannabis is federallyillegal.
And so with a federally illegalsubstance, we have to lobby the
states to be able to introducelegislation to create what's
called adult therapeutic useprograms.
So there's four actually nowthat are currently available,
(27:30):
four states.
They include most recently NewMexico, um, which will create
this kind of adult therapeuticuse framework.
It'll take another probably twoyears to get to get open, Um.
The two that are open right noware Oregon, with measure one,
oh nine, where we have ourcenter in Portland, and then
Colorado, uh, with through propone, two, two.
(27:52):
So they're just starting tolicense.
They just licensed, uh, thefirst healing center, um, and
and then you have, uh, utah thatactually has, you know, medical
professionals prescribing beingable to prescribe MDMA and
psilocybin.
So, um, that's a legal waythrough the state to be able to,
to access this.
(28:12):
And why that's important isbecause we focus on a couple of
different avenues and licensesto be able to do this correctly.
So set and setting are reallyimportant.
So your mindset, and then theenvironment that you do this
medicine in, and what's alsocritical and where all of the
positive results come from, isthis psychotherapy that
(28:34):
individuals continue to do.
So in regards to preparingsomebody, we would prepare them
and give them these kind ofquestionnaires about their
mental health history andmedication, so there's no
drug-drug interaction, and thenwe would, after you're qualified
, you'd be paired with afacilitator.
So think about this person as alicensed individual that is
(29:00):
knowledgeable and can sit withsomebody through a ceremony, and
they will get to know all ofBruce's traumas, why he's coming
, because sometimes these thingscan arise and Bruce may need a
little bit of support during theceremony.
And then you know, I think themost crucial part is the
integration of okay, we've hadthe ceremony, we've had this
(29:25):
kind of cataclystic event andit's been positive for not only
the spirit but also the brainand there's definitely, you know
, more activity happening in thebrain and there's definitely
more activity happening in thebrain.
There's an anti-inflammatoryeffect.
Now what are you going to dowith it?
There's this proven in nature.
There was a study of thisproven openness period.
(29:47):
So there's three to four weekswhere individuals have the
ability that in the ceremonythey've broken these kind of
destructive thought patterns orperspectives of themselves and
now they've got this three tofour week window to be able to
really go anywhere they want togo.
They aren't hamstrung by thesame anxieties or perspectives
(30:10):
of themselves or their injury orthe situation they're in, and
so they can start eatingdifferently, they can start
waking up at different hours andgoing to bed at different hours
, and it just becomes reallyeasy because the brain is almost
like a child's brain again,it's placid right, and so that's
what we've proven through anumber of different studies,
(30:31):
both in animal and in human.
So you know that integrationpiece is really important and
this has all been supported by anumber of different studies.
So you know, obviously peoplecan try to get in touch and,
bruce, I'll send you some of theinformation that we have in our
decks, but most recently I'lljust touch on this.
(30:52):
There was a study done byNortheastern University about
three weeks ago they publishedthis where they gave female rats
mild traumatic brain injury andpeople might be asking well why
would they use rats?
That's the first step to doing adrug development program
specifically for concussions, sothey actually might make people
(31:13):
a little queasy, but they havean anvil test where they hit
these rats on the head, similarto a mild traumatic brain injury
, for three days and then theygave them a dose of psilocybin.
And what they found?
Obviously they had this braindamage.
They had anti-inflammatoryeffects that went up after they
were hit and they also had thepresence of tau proteins.
(31:34):
Tau proteins are theseentanglements that basically
strangle brain hemispheres andthey're present in Alzheimer's,
dementia, als and Parkinson's.
Why that's important is afterthe psilocybin went into these
female rats that were hit in thehead, they did not have a
presence of these tau proteinsanymore.
(31:54):
After the psilocybin dose, theresearchers couldn't find any
signs of any brain damage andall of the anti-inflammatory
markers that were heightenedafter they got hit in the head
were no longer present.
So this study speaks to howpowerful psilocybin is
specifically for the brain andspecifically for after it has
(32:16):
been injured due to impacts.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
And that's something I mean.
Number one, that's amazing andwe are a huge proponent.
I've done most of thesemodalities myself part of my
research project and, to yourpoint, they're not a lot of fun.
I mean there is no recreationalwhen you take ketamine,
psilocybin, ayahuasca there isno recreation.
(32:40):
There's no fun about thisbecause you are dealing with
your internal struggles, yourinternal trauma and getting rid
of it in your pursuit ofbecoming a better human being.
So the what.
What always bothers me when youstart talking about studies and
stuff is how do we keep bigfarmers hand out of this thing?
(33:00):
Right, because they want toturn everything into a pill and
charge 500 bucks for somethingyou can grow for 50.
Right, they can grow a ton ofit.
Right, I happen to know peoplethat have like mushroom farms.
Right, they're not makingpizzas either, right?
So, you know how do we preventthat?
And then the other thing is,how do we control the quality so
that people know I'm gettingwhat I'm getting?
(33:22):
You know whether it's the typeof mushroom or the type of plant
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.
So I think that's what'simportant to highlight about
Oregon and about Colorado.
So there's four licenses so youcan get licensed as a service
center.
So that's the environment thatyou would come and do this in
and that's the center that wehave called Experience Onward in
Portland.
But then there's alsomanufacturing licenses, right?
So for the growers of the fungi, there's very specific ways to
(33:51):
grow it and if you don't followthat, then nobody's going to
ingest it.
Then there's testing facilities.
So there's a testing license.
So after the mushroomsmanufactured, it goes to the
testing facility and has to passthose specifications.
And then there's a facilitatorlicenses.
So there's these therapists orthese people that have obviously
been through a ceremony andseveral themselves and now want
(34:13):
to help others and pass this on.
So those four licenses createthe programming and, similar to
pharma, the reason they use onecompound synthetically is
because they need to replicatethat compound within a 0.01%
variance for millions of peopleThink about Adderall, et cetera.
So the testing is reallyimportant.
(34:35):
But we've lobbied for thatright, we've put these programs
in place.
And so will Big Pharma evercome in and want to run a
state-run center?
Absolutely not.
Why are we doing this firstinhuman longitudinal
observational study.
Well, because there's a lot ofstigma associated with this
(34:58):
medicine that we use and we wantto track data.
We want to track data in apoignant way, so that we can
show people the real-time effectof how this is impacting a
veteran's life, an athlete'slife, an executive's life that's
struggling right now, acivilian that was just in a car
crash.
We just want to be able to showpeople on top of Bruce talking
(35:22):
about it, or Daniel, or somebodythat just came to the retreat.
We really want to back up thatwith some markers of data, and
these are just quantitative,qualitative surveys, but you
know.
So what we'll get right is,we'll get this question well,
(35:43):
you're not doing a double-blindplacebo study the way that the
FDA does.
Right, and I will say, no, I'mnot.
But there's also measurementsthat we're taking that bust
through your placebo argument.
Right, if we know that thebrain has more activity right,
and is communicating correctlythrough a QEG pre and then post.
There's no placebo effect there.
Somebody's brain wascommunicating badly because they
(36:07):
were hit in the head severaltimes for several years.
We gave them psilocybin andthen now it's communicating
correctly.
So that's why these studies areso important, right?
These anti-inflammatory effects, these genetic tests of the
actual age, how fast somebody'saging, because what we've seen
across 50 people that have comeis that they look younger.
(36:31):
Everybody looks healthier,right, and then you know,
tracking the anti-inflammatoryeffects.
But these data points, I'm notcollecting them to sell them to
big pharma.
That is not what's going onhere.
What's happening is I'messentially collecting them so
that we can show how importantinhuman data is to convince
(36:57):
others that this could work forthem.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, the absence of longitudinal data is actually
the largest obstacle to allthese modalities being approved,
because everybody wants the FDAstamp and you're not going to
get it for all this and therewill be significant pushback by
big pharma to anything that canenter their little SSRI, ssni
and benzo chokehold on mentalhealth.
(37:21):
And that's why you know we're ahuge proponent of plant
medicines and their impact.
I mean, I've got a friend whowas training in special forces
and they cacked off an implosionand a damn staircase came down
and hit him on the head and whenhe retired they did a brain
scan on him and they declaredhim terminal.
It was like, look, you got allthese fibrous tangles, you got
(37:44):
all this stuff in there thatwe've never seen before.
We don't know where it camefrom, but you better start
getting ready to go.
And he found psilocybin andright now they can't find
anything in his head.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
And that goes to speak to what you just said,
right, bruce?
So one of the hardest things todo is communicate this to
people, right?
There's just so much of thatstigma.
And so if you compare thatNortheastern study, right, which
was done like via an FDAapproved but that was an FDA
approved study and then youcompare the inhuman stories that
(38:19):
you just mentioned, and thenthat individual's brain scans,
and then you put those togetherand you can show, right, what
you're talking about are thoseprotein tau entanglements, and
then now this individual doesn'thave them anymore.
So that's real and we should belistening to that, even though
it wasn't done with a syntheticmedicine and it wasn't done
through an FDA approved study.
(38:40):
That to me doesn't matter, right, but that's the trick.
That's kind of the game reallythat we're all playing, right Is
how to put this into language.
And then, secondly, a lot ofpeople ask well, you're not
going to be able to publish itin nature or frontier.
And I'm like this is not forthe scientific community, this
(39:02):
is for individuals that thathave been through the system,
that are hopeless, that aresuicidal.
The number one cause of deathafter a traumatic brain injury
is suicide, and that's who thisis for this, isn't for anybody
else.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
No, and it shouldn't be.
I mean, right now, the peoplethat are finding, like I go to
quite a few ceremonies toobserve, to talk and the people
that are coming there have beenthrough everything that Big
Pharma has.
They've been through everythingthe whole healthcare, the, the,
the uh, the whole healthcaresystem has and they are done.
(39:39):
Nothing has helped them.
I talked to veterans that haveliterally a bag of 15 different
medications and they'll say Idon't want this, you know, for
whatever, whatever negativeimpact on their health that they
all cause.
I don't want this, no more.
And they're like well, let'sgive you more Right.
Well, let's give you more right, or let's try this other one.
(40:00):
No, it's all about what else isout there.
So let me ask you a quickquestion.
I ask everybody that's in thisspace, out of all the people so
you say 50 people have gonethrough your program how many of
them said that this has had apositive impact on my health and
my future?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
98%, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Now, yeah, so my daughter's a nurse practitioner
of psychiatric medicine, and thedrugs that she prescribed, you
said have a 7%.
She said, dad, they might help.
I have a 25% expectancy thatthey were going to improve or
positively impact my patient.
And then yet I talk topractitioners of ayahuasca,
psilocybin, ketamine, hbot.
(40:38):
You name all those therapiesthat you tried before you found
psilocybin.
Every one of them has anenormously high level of
positive impact on the patient.
And so what we're, you knowwhat we want to work with.
Providers like you is like say,look, why isn't this enough?
When people are literallygetting ready to suck on the end
of a pistol or run off a clifflike my son, or just think of
(41:01):
all the other tragedies that cantake place why don't we allow
them access to these modalitiesthat have changed lives in order
to save them?
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, I think things are changing.
So, you know, and I talked to alot of my friends, of people
that, like, are focusing on kindof the why not?
And you know, I'm trying tohighlight like.
So Enthea is, you know, aspecialty network program that
(41:33):
is actually working withemployers to to use their
insurance, um, to help peoplesubsidize this, this type of
treatment.
Uh, it's cash pay, you know.
So that's sometimes difficultfor people and the reason that
you know some people want to gothrough the FDA so that you know
they can play that whole um,capitalize on insurance and
those types of things.
So, um, but yeah, I just think,you know, I think, focusing on
(41:56):
messaging and and and collectingthis data, you know we're about
to, you know, raise funds to beable to put 25 people through
this program.
We already did eight and uh,and I think that'll go a long
way, you know, to to show andit's not expensive.
This isn't a clinical trial tospend $300 million, right, we're
talking about a couple hundredthousand dollars to be able to
(42:19):
show this and show it.
Well, so, and there's a lot offorces that pull people in,
right, but typically, and Ithink unfortunately, there's so
many people that have beenthrough the healthcare system,
especially with concussion, thathave spent so much money and
time, that are so frustratedthat you know.
(42:42):
And then there's so manystories that already are out
there of people positivelyimpacted that they're taking
advantage of this.
Careful to say it's not apanacea.
There's things that I do on ayearly basis to make sure that I
maintain my brain health andquality of life, mainly like a
lot of lifestyle things,obviously, and then I continue
(43:02):
to do this medicine once ortwice a year, but I mean, it's
by far the best medicine I'veever come across and it lasts,
you know, for me, with a goodlifestyle and good habits, like
up to six months.
I don't need anything else.
I just work out and eat welland and um, yeah, it's pretty
amazing.
(43:22):
Uh, good for you.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
And we and we noticed that too with other plant
medicines that you know, otherplant medicines, like, like
ayahuasca, is really good atpurging, you know, getting rid
of a lot of uh, you know, a lotof trauma.
So that you can focus on thosebetter, uh, lifestyles and
better change what it does tothe brain.
I think there's a lot of good,positive stuff there, because
you know it hurts, um, but youknow to your point is that you
(43:48):
know these are lifestyle changesthat are impacting people that
had no hope and if you've got to, you know, you know, continue
with a, you know a protocol onceor twice a year and your
lifestyle has increased from ahealth perspective, so so
drastically that you're backwith your family.
That's a hell of a lot betterthan being in the hole that a
lot of the folks that we talkedto are in.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
And it's a.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
It's amazing what you're doing and I would love to
get a copy of your legislation.
We have a very pro-veteranlegislation here.
We're doing a study withketamine right now and brain
supplementation Ayahuasca is alittle bit too far for the
Congress down here Like hey,dude, but if we could.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Ketamine is nice.
It's FDA approved.
What state are you in?
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Florida sir.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Oh you are, so am I.
I'm in Jupiter We've beentalking a lot about.
We have a couple ofrepresentatives that are
actually interested in some formof a possible adult therapeutic
use bill.
But, yeah, no, let's definitelywe'll exchange.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I got a couple more for you, cool, and we'll talk
about that, because we gotfunding for the ketamine study,
okay, so what I'd like to do iswork with you to submit your
study to the state, to go aheadand open that up here in the
state of Florida.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
And that's another reason why I started the center,
right, it's because there'sbeen over 9,000 people treated
in Oregon and nobody collectedany data.
And the reason that you wouldcollect data on top of this is
like, all right, we could showthis data in the veteran
population to other states andit'll be so much easier to open
up more of these programs.
So, yeah, absolutely, let's, um, you know, fortuitous.
(45:34):
You know I call this a God wink.
It's like, yeah, it's how Godworks, man.
No doubt, bro, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
He's all over this man?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah for sure, so let's do it.
That is amazing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
And I mean what you the battle right now, or another
person, because there's just somuch carnage out there and we
both deal with it on a dailybasis.
And I got a kid for you rightnow that really needs your
program and I'll even try tohelp, I'll raise the money for
it and a lot we can do together.
So, look, tell us how peoplefind you, man.
(46:14):
As I close out the show I'dlike to talk about.
You talked about studies, whereyou're at right now, where
you're going, and then how dopeople find out about your
clinic, the program, where canthey go to research psilocybin
so they understand?
Number one, you need tounderstand what you're dealing
with.
And then, number two, what arethe potential outcomes that
could change their lives?
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Thanks for asking.
So I'm on Instagram prettyregularly.
So, daniel Carcillo 13.
Linkedin is just my name,facebook my name.
Our center is called experienceonward, so websites
wwwexperienceonwardcom.
We've got a number of differentresources there, so all the
(46:56):
links to over 150 cited studiesfrom Johns Hopkins.
We've got Andrew Huberman onthere talking about the risks
and benefits in a prettyextensive 40-minute YouTube
about the science and everythinginvolving psilocybin and we've
also got a clip from RolandGriffiths, who's the who was the
(47:17):
lead researcher at JohnsHopkins.
He recently, you know, passedaway from a cancer diagnosis.
But you know, just talkingabout, you know, all the studies
that they've done on end oflife anxiety in terminally ill
cancer patients and and, anddepression, and and.
So there's pretty goodresources on the website for
people to get to get started.
Um, and you know I I have a,you know a business line that's
(47:41):
that's attached to my phone thatpeople can, um, you know, text
and and uh, and then email isdanielatexperienceonwardcom.
So if anyone reaches out andthey want more information, I've
got decks and documents readyto go, specifically on
concussion and the latestresearch.
So, yeah, just reach outthrough those platforms.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Dude, I wish I would have met you earlier, because
Friday we're having an actual,the first town hall of
repetitive blast exposure andwe've got a panel of veterans
and a panel of specialists andmodalities that are not normal.
I wonder if I can squeeze youin.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
But where's, uh, where's it at it's in uh, tampa.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Uh, we're having the first and we're we have we host
the only repetitive brain uhsummit on repetitive brain
trauma in the world in tampa.
It's going to be september 3rdand 4th, so I'd love to have you
come out and maybe give apresentation on psilocybin.
It would be great.
It's a two-day summit.
We got a lot of really greatspeakers and presenters there,
so we'll get you the invite.
(48:43):
So, daniel man, thank you somuch for the time you get to
spend with me today.
What an amazing journey you'vebeen on.
God bless you and yourorganization, and thank you for
the work you've done on yourself, for your family, and the work
that you're doing for others,and we look forward to hearing
from you later on and we'll haveyou back on the show for sure.
Awesome, appreciate it, bruceCool.
(49:03):
All right, folks, as we closeout, another amazing episode of
Broken Brains with another justa special guest, daniel Carcio,
make sure you reach out to him,make sure you find him, because
if you don't know aboutpsilocybin and you know people
that are struggling, I'm tellingyou it's one of those medicines
out there that can help, andwhen people at the end, you know
, that's why the show exists Now, you know, get out there.
(49:25):
If there's somebody that needshelp, reach out to Daniel and
let them know.
By the way, the book the onlybook for parents free on our
website Go out there, get it,give it away Birthday presents,
whatever.
The town hall on Friday is goingto be a big event that we had
to reschedule because ofconstruction concerns last month
.
So that'll be the RepetitiveBrain, repetitive Blast Exposure
(49:48):
Town Hall we're hosting.
Do expect we're going to haveour NFL seminar, which we're
going to open up to NHL players,on repetitive head impacts how
to diagnose them, how tovalidate them and then how to go
back to your providers forcoverage.
And then what are theseprograms, like Daniel's, that
can help you get back on yourfeet.
We'll have a seminar forparents and, don't forget, our
(50:09):
Summit on Repetitive BrainTrauma is going to be September
2nd and 3rd here in Tampa.
Amazing guests showing up rightnow, some of the top-ranked
speakers in the country on thisissue, which, again, is not
taught in any medical, nursing,psychological course.
And, like Daniel, you have tofind your way, unfortunately,
until we get this fixed.
So, for all of you, thank youso much.
(50:31):
Keep your brains healthy.
We'll talk to you later.
Another exciting episode.
No-transcript.
Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation, where wework at the issue.
Look at the issue of repetitivebrain trauma in the forms of
repetitive head impacts fromcontact sports, repetitive blast
exposures for our veteranpopulation, and what these
(00:34):
conditions are doing to thebrains of our kids, our athletes
and our veterans and causing,right now, the largest
preventable cause of mentalillness in this country now the
largest preventable cause ofmental illness in this country.
We reach out to players andadvocates and researchers,
scientists, authors, whoever isin this space, because this is
not taught in any medical,nursing or psychological
curriculum.
(00:55):
So you need to be informed tomake the best decision for
yourself and how to addressbrain health, how to take care
of your kids and how to help usall make sports safer, because
they can be made safer as wemove forward.
With us today is another amazingguest, thanks to our producer,
denny Caballero, who's alwaysbringing these amazing folks on
(01:15):
our show.
Love to have him.
And we have today Daniel Garcia, who's our first NHL player to
get on the show.
Mr Garcia is a former NHLplayer and if they show, mr
Garcia was a former NHL playerand if they're like Marines,
they're never former.
Once an NHL player, always anNHL player.
He's a two-time Stanley Cupwinner man with the Chicago
Blackhawks and a now-renownedadvocate for brain health and
(01:37):
mental well-being, which wealways love to see players
getting into space because it'sso necessary.
He played left wing in the NHLfor 10 seasons, earning a
reputation as a hard-nosedenforcer, the bad guy on the ice
, and is now known for his workwith individuals suffering from
effects of concussions andmental health challenges.
And since he's left the NHLright now he has been eminently
(02:01):
engaged in the space, is helpingout other players, other kids,
other parents in space.
Um, he retired in 2015, but hefounded a nonprofit organization
to assist former NFL player NHLplayers dealing with
post-concussion syndrome andmental health issues.
He currently serves as CEO ofWasana health, a company focused
on using psilocybin basedmedicine for the treatment of
(02:23):
traumatic brain injuries.
Boy, we got a lot to talk abouton that one.
He speaks at a lot of events.
He's a vocal advocate forconcussion awareness and he's
personally experienced theeffects of multiple concussions
you think after 10 years in theNHL and including a diagnosis of
post-concussion syndrome, whichhas led him to this advocacy
work, mr Carcio.
(02:43):
What a resume, what areputation, what a career.
Welcome to the show, sir.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thanks for having me, Bruce.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I love it, man.
So, dude, where are you fromoriginally?
Obviously you're from Canada,europe.
I mean, how did you get intohockey, man?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, Canada.
As soon as you're born, you'repretty much born with skates on.
As soon as you can walk, theystick you on the ice.
It was a small town.
Everything really revolvedaround the community rink.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
It's called King City , ontario, no kidding.
So did you have an actual rinkor did you skate on like ponds
and stuff like we did inMassachusetts?
When I was growing up, we usedcranberry bogs all the time,
yeah we did both.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
We, you know, we had, uh, a local mom under the
bridge kind of dropped thebowling ball and would tell us
when we could, you know, get onthe ponds and stuff.
Uh, we had a backyard rink andthen you know, there's a rink on
every corner.
They're open all year round incanada.
So, uh, it was a meld of thosethree things all right.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So you, you were up there, way up north, with a with
the ices around year round.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, yeah, I mean the snowfall was pretty
predominant.
It's definitely less now, butyeah, no, definitely we were
pretty north of the city.
And then you get up intoSudbury and North Bay and Sault
Ste Marie and those towns areconstantly, you know, constantly
covered.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Dude, yeah, I remember sometimes if the ice
was thick enough, they'd havethe pickup trucks actually go
out there and plow the snow.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, we'd do the ice fishing Like my dad had a hut
that we would just, you know,pull with a snowmobile, or
sometimes a truck, onto the ice,so definitely thick enough for
that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Dude, cool beans man.
So where did you go to school?
I mean, where did you playhockey in college?
Or did you play hockey?
Did you just go right in?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, no, we went right in.
So there's kind of you knowthere's a fast track system with
with hockey.
I was actually drafted as 16,turning 17.
So in high school and then assoon as I graduated high school
I, um, uh, turned pro at 19,.
You know, around like 15 or 16,you have the decision to either
(04:50):
go to college or at least startlooking at universities or play
in the league called theCanadian hockey league, which
really fast tracks you, andthat's where a lot of the scouts
were.
Uh, you know you're playingagainst 16 to 21 year olds and I
went to a few school visits butI figured you know why be
behind the eight ball.
I thought I was good enough.
I thought I was strong enoughthat I could break into the
(05:12):
league.
Maybe not at 19 or 20.
But after a couple years in theAHL I thought I could
definitely get there faster andno point in going to school and
waiting until I was 23 or 24 totry to get in.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Cool beans man.
So basically, how long did ittake you to get drafted into the
NHL.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I mean unconsciously, since I started around four
years old when I really noticedthat I probably had a pretty
decent shot if I continued towork hard and outwork people.
Probably at 13, 14 years oldpeople were starting to take
notice.
I was never the biggest, I wasnever the best.
(05:51):
I played AA, which is kind of alevel down from AAA.
There were about 700,000 kidsin Ontario alone that were
playing hockey, so it was reallyreally competitive and I had an
opportunity to make a AAA team,got drafted in the sixth round
to an OHL team, moved away at 16, drafted 73rd overall to the
(06:12):
NHL and just kind of kept makingmy way up and just kept working
as an underdog.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Dude.
So you're in the NHL at 17years old.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
You're drafted yeah, 17, turning 18.
Yep, you're drafted.
And then you start going to procamps.
You know, that year, andthere's only a select few guys
that you know turn pro rightaway and get right into the NHL,
typically like first roundersand second, third, fourth
rounders.
You got to continue to makeyour way up through the
developmental league, which isthe American Hockey League it's
(06:43):
one level down from the NHL andthen you start playing well and
you start getting noticed by theorganization.
They either bring you up or, ifthere's a little bit of a
pecking order, like there was inmy situation, I was drafted to
the Penguins.
I knew that I was ready to playand there were just so many
guys in front of me that itdidn't really matter how well I
(07:04):
played.
So I asked for a trade andended up getting traded a year
and a half into my pro career toPhoenix Arizona and started my
NHL career there in I think itwas 05, 06.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Wow man, I never knew how this stuff played and you
know.
It's just, you read about itand you know stuff like that and
I think, actually I thinkyou're the I think you're the
second professional hockeyplayer I've talked to.
I met a guy that played withthe Bruins a long time ago and
he runs a sports clinic.
I'm talking about how we canmake the sport safer so that
(07:41):
people can play the entire timeand retire from the NHL, nfl,
any world rugby and not havebrain problems.
Right, there's a, there's a wayforward to it.
So, so in your life, from thetime you retired, from the time
you start playing hockey, I mean, how how many years did you
play competitive hockey?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Competitively.
You know, the rules weredifferent back when I started,
right, we were hitting right atthree, four years old.
So I mean, yeah, I started, youknow, I'd say about like 25
years, 26 years, you know,because I retired early at 30.
It was because of just theeffects of concussion and I just
was really, you know, justaffecting balance and hand-eye
(08:20):
coordination and symptoms likeheadaches, head pressure,
insomnia.
It was just impossible tocontinue to do my job.
But 10 years is a really longtime to play in the NHL,
especially when you fight 164times.
And my job was to get as manyhits as possible, and I was good
(08:41):
at it, but it comes at a cost.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, so not only were you checking and hitting
the ice, all the time, you'regetting punched in the head too,
just for the.
You know that was your job.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was an enforcer.
I uh, I mean, I was good at thegame.
It wasn't like I was one ofthose um, kind of you know
heavyweights that just went outand at the beginning of the game
just kind of dropped theirgloves.
I would make you know peopleearn it, uh, or I would go earn
it myself.
But you know, it was reallyused as a tool to shift the
momentum of a game to, you know,if you weren't having kind of
(09:16):
the best start to just, you know, show the guys that you were
there to battle and and yourteammates appreciate it.
And then usually the next shiftand the shift after that you
start to gain some momentum andwithin a game you know,
especially professional sports,there's there's very little room
for error and and so momentumplays a very big role in in the
(09:36):
bounces that you get and createfor yourself and winning a game
or a series.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Dang you ever have one of your coach go, hey man,
go start a fight.
We need to, we need to, we needto flop the momentum or
anything like that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Um, they don't, they don't, they don't, they say it
without saying it.
So yeah they'll, well, they'llput you.
They'll never say, go start afight, but what they'll do is
they'll, they'll change.
Maybe one guy or two guys off aface off, maybe one guy or two
guys off a face-off, and thenthe guy that you're lined up
with is you know, you know whofights on the other side all the
(10:09):
time, right, you do yourresearch and so you know they
say it without, and then youknow like that's you know,
having your finger on the pulseof how the game's going is.
It's a skill and I knew thatpretty intimately and for a long
time, like I reveled in it.
You know, I really likedhurting people and I, you know
(10:31):
the only other time that peoplestand up and cheers when you
know a goal scored or there's afight.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So good on you, man.
I mean hey, we all got ourroles right.
I played semi-pro rugby for along time, man, and my role is
just stick my head in there andcome out with the ball somehow.
Nice, I didn't even know how topass.
I mean, I played semi-pro rugbyfor decades.
I never even passed the ball,we just had.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's funny you mentioned that we just had a
bunch of UK boxers and somerugby players and they're going
through a concussion lawsuitright now, but we're starting to
treat some people from acrossthe pond there using mushrooms
at our center and we're trackingdata and it's been going well.
We just did our first cohort ofeight individuals and some UFC,
(11:23):
some bare knuckle boxers and,um, and yeah, we just, we just
all met the other day and peoplehave been, you know, their
lives have been changed, uh, forthe better.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So yeah, let's get into that a little bit.
So, yeah, no, absolutely, causeI want to dial into psilocybin.
It's one of the treatments thatwe highly recommend, um, as
part as as part of thelegislation that we have in
Congress right now for veterans.
We're trying to parallel thattrack for athletes and um get
that going.
So you noticed that you knowthe, the sport was taking its
toll on you and basically, youhad to leave the sport because
(11:55):
of its impact on your brain andum, and and physical health.
What about mental health?
Were you struggling?
I mean, obviously you werereveling and fighting.
I mean, that's just who you are.
You know other times, you knowthe.
You know the the anger, theimpulsivity and the rage come
from.
You know, you know the damageto the brain.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's also done by the sport yeah, if I look back on
my career, I can see how I wasdealing with, like a lot of, you
know, depression, anxiety orwhat could be framed as that.
But also, you know, I'm thetype of person that likes to use
things as fuel and so you know,I could also see that some
forms of the self-sabotage werelikely because I was
(12:38):
self-medicating because of theinjuries that I was kind of
dealing with that were, you know, underlined or underpinned,
just feeling so different, Uh,but also, you know, trauma in a
big way um, fueled me, right,you know I was, I was angry, Uh,
(13:00):
I just liked the physicality ofof the game.
I liked being able to look atsomebody you know in the eye and
and test and then have themtest me to see how strong I am,
to see how far I'll go, Lessabout for the team, but more so
just personally.
And I'm still very much kind oflike that.
That dog is still in me.
It just comes out in differentways now, right, In
(13:22):
entrepreneurship and that sortof thing.
But my sixth and seventhconcussion, which were the last
two years of being in the league, so 2014 to 2015,.
The symptoms were really,really bad.
So, on top of the headaches,head pressure, the insomnia, the
impulse control issues.
(13:42):
I was definitely dealing withanxiety, depression and then
suicidality, Especially when Iwalked away from the game.
When you're not getting sleepand then you have all of these
kind of things that are that arehappening to you and you go
from being a professionalathlete to sitting at home with
(14:02):
your wife and a newborn, youstart to really realize how sick
you are, how slow you are, youknow, compared to other people,
and I think a part of that, abig part of that, was obviously
the brain chemistry and theyears of abuse.
Um, you know, being so physicalin the body and the brain but
then also having no purpose.
(14:23):
I think people, men especially,can deteriorate without that
community and purpose.
So that definitely happened tome and it got really scary for
for a really long time.
Um, I've had a lot of friendsthat didn't make it out that,
you know, CT was all over theirbrain and and for whatever
reason, they, they just, youknow, couldn't figure it out.
(14:44):
So I feel blessed that, youknow, I was able to to find a
medicine that that saved my life.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So when you got out, I mean and we deal with this on
the military side too you know,depression and anxiety, mental
health issues are very prominentin first responders,
professional athletes in themilitary because you spend a
such a long segment of your lifein a an environment of you know
, just say, let's just say,manliness, right, I mean,
(15:13):
whether you're shooting guns,going to combat, you're playing,
you know a sport or you'resaving lives, right.
Then you leave it, right andit's like silence and we don't
know how to deal with silence.
How did you take the steps toavoid you know, some of the
tragedies that happened withprofessional athletes in the
same spot, right, and this iswe're talking.
(15:36):
You know almost everybody Iknow that plays professional
sports, contact sports is hurt,okay, whether they're rugby
players, football players, nhlplayers, whatever, right.
So you know, obviously you werein a hole and thank the Lord
that you know you startedclimbing out.
What was the impetus for you tostart saying I've got to do
something?
And then what led you to themedicine that you know that that
(15:58):
helped you, uh, get back andbecome who you are.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, so 2015,.
The year started with me havingwe we had our first, uh, our
first child.
So Austin was born in 2014.
The season starts in Septemberand then, leading into 2015, my
best friend, steve Monador,passed away.
He had 19 documentedconcussions in the NHL, and so I
(16:27):
just saw a lot of the samesymptoms in myself that I saw in
him, that we were obviouslytalking about when he retired
and what he was struggling with.
And then in March, I had myseventh concussion and then at
the end of the year, we won thecup again, and that was my
second.
And I just thought that, withthe symptoms from the seventh
concussion and how bad they were, I still never recovered.
(16:49):
I just knew that if I keptgoing on that way, there was a
high likelihood that my brainwas just going to stop working
forever.
So I made the decision to stopbased off of those symptoms.
And then I went into themedical system and luckily, I
had means.
I had all the means in theworld to get the best care and
(17:13):
unfortunately, what I startedwith was listening to doctors
prescribe me these syntheticpharmaceuticals for a number of
years to manage symptoms whichthen exasperated others.
So when I got off of those.
I had a couple seizures whichmade my situation a little bit
worse, and then I started to goto these kind of cash pay
(17:33):
neurological strokerehabilitation, concussion
rehabilitation clinics, startedto really learn about the brain
diagnostics and went to thesekind of intensive week-long
programs.
But I could only sustain thatfor like a year and a half
because, number one, it was justso expensive and number two,
like the treatments just didn'treally take hold, you know.
(17:56):
And so then I started to kindof be resounded to the fact of
listening to theseneuroscientists saying, well,
we've done everything we can foryou, so now it's time to just
manage these symptoms and live anew normal which is what a lot
of concussion survivors, youknow, hear and live a new normal
, which is what a lot ofconcussion survivors hear.
So I started to do float tanks,hyperbaric chamber, mox,
(18:16):
acupuncture, cranial sacralthings like that, just to kind
of manage the days and all thiswhile I was reading PubMed
papers.
So I was reading anything thatI could on what the new science
was saying about any medicinescoming out or anything for the
brain.
And then I came across a studyin 2000, I think it was 2017, it
(18:42):
was published in 14, it was byRobin Card Harris, imperial
College of London of a brain onpsilocybin under fMRI and what I
saw was this kind ofoveractivity of communication
with left and right brainhemispheres and I just a light
went off and said, hey, thatmight work for you, just based
off of what I was listening tofrom the diagnostics from these
clinics and the neuroscientists,etc.
(19:03):
So, luckily, in 2019, I took aninvitation to Denver which,
where magic mushrooms are stillinside and was decriminalized at
the time.
So I knew I couldn't getarrested and I took a really
high dose and before I left Itook some diagnostics.
So I took a QEG, I took bloodwork because I knew that if this
(19:26):
could work, then there's a lotof stigma associated with it, so
I'd need some kind of backupdata and at that point I was big
on this kind of data collection.
So I did it on myself.
And then I did two high dosesacross six months and I went
back to the neurologist orneuroscientist that kind of gave
(19:47):
me the scans and they couldn'tfind any abnormalities in my
brain and then my blood work wascompletely clear.
And they asked me well, whathave you been doing?
And I said I've been focusingon my sleep.
I did two high doses ofmushrooms, I did some
microdosing and then I havesupplements of lion's mane and
reishi and cordyceps and chagathese other legal, usda
(20:08):
certified organic mushrooms thathelp support, you know,
anti-inflammatory benefits ofthe brain, the body and they,
you know, they wouldn't likeeven look at it.
You know, because at this pointthere weren't that many studies
out, but now there's a lot thatpromote this idea of
(20:29):
neuroplasticity that you know wegot it wrong.
Right, the brain doesn't stopgrowing at 21.
It continues to if youintroduce the right substances
and you have the right lifestyle.
It continues to be able to beplacid enough to make these new
neuronal connections aroundthese dead neurons.
So you know that was in 2020, Ireally started talking about
(20:52):
this, right?
No-transcript.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
So you found this.
I mean you found this path allby yourself.
When you got out, where was theNHL on this?
Did they offer you any?
You know, I mean obviously thatthey offer you any.
You know, I mean I meanobviously.
And this is one of my ongoingpresses against the NFL and in
the V, in the, in the military,like when I retired 21 years as
a green beret.
(21:41):
You know I've been shot in theface, all you know, blown up.
I shot, I've shot so manybullets I don't even go to range
.
They bought, they bored me,right.
But the military does anassessment center, right, we
find all this stuff wrong thatyou didn't have when you came in
.
We own this and, right or wrong, the VA says, hey, we're going
to take care of it, all right.
And yet you know we're talkingabout a sport where you
(22:04):
dedicated yourself from three orfour all the way up until 2015.
So before three, I doubt youhad the kind of damage that was
found with your QEG and FMR whenyou retired.
Obviously, this is due,dedicated.
You know it's due to the hockeyright, it's due to your sport,
your commitment, your passion.
Right Was the NHL.
You know.
(22:24):
You know they would they?
Did they have any programs oranything to help you with at all
?
Do you get any medical supportor anything like that?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
No, no, I, no, I was a little bit like jaded from
what had happened to Steve andhe was such a big part of the
union, the NHLPA.
But once you stop either workingfor them or paying your dues,
if you're not playing, you'renot necessarily, you know, I
(22:54):
wouldn't say you're not welcome,but they're not going to,
they're not going to go out oftheir way to help.
And we all pay for healthcareand you could tap into
healthcare, but the only thingthat can be prescribed are these
FDA approved medications right,that we know work, you know
less than 7% of the time andcome with these crippling side
(23:14):
effects.
I think people are waking up tothat now.
So, no, there wasn't muchsupport.
I honestly, to be honest, Ididn't want their support.
We talked a little bit aboutthese transition programs
because I had such a hard timetransitioning and I think
they're doing a little bit of abetter job of it now through the
NHL as well.
(23:35):
So, no, you know, I think onceyou stop kind of producing and
playing for the corporations orfor the leagues or for the teams
, then, um, you know, you'rekind of yeah, you're kind of on
your own.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Wow, okay, I mean, you know, not pointing fingers.
What I'm looking at is how dowe change this right?
How do we get you know peopleto you know, or the
organizations to professionalleagues to say, look, man, these
young men dedicate themselvesto our sport.
You know, you guys are likegladiators, right?
You give us our, you know forfootball, our Sundays with our
(24:10):
Doritos and our beer, you know.
And on the hockey, I mean, youguys play so many games, dude, I
don't even know it was a lot.
Yeah, how many games in NHLC?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
82.
82.
And then, yeah, so it's, butit's over 184 days, I think.
So you're 40, obviously 41 areat home and 41 are on the road,
so it's a pretty gruelingschedule.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Dude yeah, nuts, so all right.
So all right, you put yourself,you know, on the way back and
then you know, obviously, youknow, have you tried?
I mean, so all right.
So let's talk about psilocybin.
Tell us about the impact it hason brains.
I mean, you've mentioned newneural connections and increased
plasticity.
Connections and increasedplasticity.
(24:53):
You know, tell our, our members, um, you know, you know, from a
, from a, a brain damageperspective, from subconcussive
trauma, uh, you know how longdid it take?
You you said you took two highdoses.
Was that, you know, one in oneor in in in micro dose, along?
Or you know what are the, whatare the protocols that you know
that you went through and there,and, uh, what do you?
What the protocols that youknow that you went through and
(25:18):
they're in, uh, what are you,what are you finding out?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
psilocybin, because I mean, we talk about all the
time and obviously you're you'redevoted to it.
What do our listeners need toknow about this, about this
medicine?
Yeah, so I will say so and letme just address, um, I do want
to say something just about thelike, the leagues and stuff,
right, so what?
What we have that we areputting together right now is
the first inhuman longitudinalobservational study with QEGs,
(25:40):
which are the brain scans gotmicrobiome genetic testing blood
.
So we're putting that together.
We just did our first eightcohorts, as I mentioned a little
earlier, with the boxers andrugby players and UFC fighters.
So that's exciting and that'ssomething that I think, because
there is so much research thereisn't an FDA approved medicine
(26:02):
yet, but there is so much that'sbeen done in the way of proving
that this neuroplasticity ishappening and how it could be
good for not only concussion butneurodegenerative disease
through, like Johns Hopkins andNYU, langone and some serious
academic institutions that Ithink, if we put together this
program and put it in front ofthe NHLPA, I'm hopeful, and even
(26:26):
the UFC, and I'm hopeful eitherthey help with recruitment, um,
or maybe funding, and so, um,you know, that's kind of the
next step of of you know howmaybe they can get involved for
your listeners.
You know I want to start with,there's obviously two different
ways to do this right that a lotof people hear about.
They hear about, kind ofrecreationally, going to a
(26:47):
concert and doing, you know, asmall dose um.
But what we're talking abouthere, in the context of of
healing the brain and the bodyand the spirit from depression,
anxiety, any number of thesepsychiatric and neurological
disorders, is we do thistherapeutically.
So this is a Schedule Isubstance.
(27:07):
So that means that it's illegal, federally illegal, similar to
how cannabis is federallyillegal.
And so with a federally illegalsubstance, we have to lobby the
states to be able to introducelegislation to create what's
called adult therapeutic useprograms.
So there's four actually nowthat are currently available,
(27:30):
four states.
They include most recently NewMexico, um, which will create
this kind of adult therapeuticuse framework.
It'll take another probably twoyears to get to get open, Um.
The two that are open right noware Oregon, with measure one,
oh nine, where we have ourcenter in Portland, and then
Colorado, uh, with through propone, two, two.
(27:52):
So they're just starting tolicense.
They just licensed, uh, thefirst healing center, um, and
and then you have, uh, utah thatactually has, you know, medical
professionals prescribing beingable to prescribe MDMA and
psilocybin.
So, um, that's a legal waythrough the state to be able to,
to access this.
(28:12):
And why that's important isbecause we focus on a couple of
different avenues and licensesto be able to do this correctly.
So set and setting are reallyimportant.
So your mindset, and then theenvironment that you do this
medicine in, and what's alsocritical and where all of the
positive results come from, isthis psychotherapy that
(28:34):
individuals continue to do.
So in regards to preparingsomebody, we would prepare them
and give them these kind ofquestionnaires about their
mental health history andmedication, so there's no
drug-drug interaction, and thenwe would, after you're qualified
, you'd be paired with afacilitator.
So think about this person as alicensed individual that is
(29:00):
knowledgeable and can sit withsomebody through a ceremony, and
they will get to know all ofBruce's traumas, why he's coming
, because sometimes these thingscan arise and Bruce may need a
little bit of support during theceremony.
And then you know, I think themost crucial part is the
integration of okay, we've hadthe ceremony, we've had this
(29:25):
kind of cataclystic event andit's been positive for not only
the spirit but also the brainand there's definitely, you know
, more activity happening in thebrain and there's definitely
more activity happening in thebrain.
There's an anti-inflammatoryeffect.
Now what are you going to dowith it?
There's this proven in nature.
There was a study of thisproven openness period.
(29:47):
So there's three to four weekswhere individuals have the
ability that in the ceremonythey've broken these kind of
destructive thought patterns orperspectives of themselves and
now they've got this three tofour week window to be able to
really go anywhere they want togo.
They aren't hamstrung by thesame anxieties or perspectives
(30:10):
of themselves or their injury orthe situation they're in, and
so they can start eatingdifferently, they can start
waking up at different hours andgoing to bed at different hours
, and it just becomes reallyeasy because the brain is almost
like a child's brain again,it's placid right, and so that's
what we've proven through anumber of different studies,
(30:31):
both in animal and in human.
So you know that integrationpiece is really important and
this has all been supported by anumber of different studies.
So you know, obviously peoplecan try to get in touch and,
bruce, I'll send you some of theinformation that we have in our
decks, but most recently I'lljust touch on this.
(30:52):
There was a study done byNortheastern University about
three weeks ago they publishedthis where they gave female rats
mild traumatic brain injury andpeople might be asking well why
would they use rats?
That's the first step to doing adrug development program
specifically for concussions, sothey actually might make people
(31:13):
a little queasy, but they havean anvil test where they hit
these rats on the head, similarto a mild traumatic brain injury
, for three days and then theygave them a dose of psilocybin.
And what they found?
Obviously they had this braindamage.
They had anti-inflammatoryeffects that went up after they
were hit and they also had thepresence of tau proteins.
(31:34):
Tau proteins are theseentanglements that basically
strangle brain hemispheres andthey're present in Alzheimer's,
dementia, als and Parkinson's.
Why that's important is afterthe psilocybin went into these
female rats that were hit in thehead, they did not have a
presence of these tau proteinsanymore.
(31:54):
After the psilocybin dose, theresearchers couldn't find any
signs of any brain damage andall of the anti-inflammatory
markers that were heightenedafter they got hit in the head
were no longer present.
So this study speaks to howpowerful psilocybin is
specifically for the brain andspecifically for after it has
(32:16):
been injured due to impacts.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
And that's something I mean.
Number one, that's amazing andwe are a huge proponent.
I've done most of thesemodalities myself part of my
research project and, to yourpoint, they're not a lot of fun.
I mean there is no recreationalwhen you take ketamine,
psilocybin, ayahuasca there isno recreation.
(32:40):
There's no fun about thisbecause you are dealing with
your internal struggles, yourinternal trauma and getting rid
of it in your pursuit ofbecoming a better human being.
So the what.
What always bothers me when youstart talking about studies and
stuff is how do we keep bigfarmers hand out of this thing?
(33:00):
Right, because they want toturn everything into a pill and
charge 500 bucks for somethingyou can grow for 50.
Right, they can grow a ton ofit.
Right, I happen to know peoplethat have like mushroom farms.
Right, they're not makingpizzas either, right?
So, you know how do we preventthat?
And then the other thing is,how do we control the quality so
that people know I'm gettingwhat I'm getting?
(33:22):
You know whether it's the typeof mushroom or the type of plant
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.
So I think that's what'simportant to highlight about
Oregon and about Colorado.
So there's four licenses so youcan get licensed as a service
center.
So that's the environment thatyou would come and do this in
and that's the center that wehave called Experience Onward in
Portland.
But then there's alsomanufacturing licenses, right?
So for the growers of the fungi, there's very specific ways to
(33:51):
grow it and if you don't followthat, then nobody's going to
ingest it.
Then there's testing facilities.
So there's a testing license.
So after the mushroomsmanufactured, it goes to the
testing facility and has to passthose specifications.
And then there's a facilitatorlicenses.
So there's these therapists orthese people that have obviously
been through a ceremony andseveral themselves and now want
(34:13):
to help others and pass this on.
So those four licenses createthe programming and, similar to
pharma, the reason they use onecompound synthetically is
because they need to replicatethat compound within a 0.01%
variance for millions of peopleThink about Adderall, et cetera.
So the testing is reallyimportant.
(34:35):
But we've lobbied for thatright, we've put these programs
in place.
And so will Big Pharma evercome in and want to run a
state-run center?
Absolutely not.
Why are we doing this firstinhuman longitudinal
observational study.
Well, because there's a lot ofstigma associated with this
(34:58):
medicine that we use and we wantto track data.
We want to track data in apoignant way, so that we can
show people the real-time effectof how this is impacting a
veteran's life, an athlete'slife, an executive's life that's
struggling right now, acivilian that was just in a car
crash.
We just want to be able to showpeople on top of Bruce talking
(35:22):
about it, or Daniel, or somebodythat just came to the retreat.
We really want to back up thatwith some markers of data, and
these are just quantitative,qualitative surveys, but you
know.
So what we'll get right is,we'll get this question well,
(35:43):
you're not doing a double-blindplacebo study the way that the
FDA does.
Right, and I will say, no, I'mnot.
But there's also measurementsthat we're taking that bust
through your placebo argument.
Right, if we know that thebrain has more activity right,
and is communicating correctlythrough a QEG pre and then post.
There's no placebo effect there.
Somebody's brain wascommunicating badly because they
(36:07):
were hit in the head severaltimes for several years.
We gave them psilocybin andthen now it's communicating
correctly.
So that's why these studies areso important, right?
These anti-inflammatory effects, these genetic tests of the
actual age, how fast somebody'saging, because what we've seen
across 50 people that have comeis that they look younger.
(36:31):
Everybody looks healthier,right, and then you know,
tracking the anti-inflammatoryeffects.
But these data points, I'm notcollecting them to sell them to
big pharma.
That is not what's going onhere.
What's happening is I'messentially collecting them so
that we can show how importantinhuman data is to convince
(36:57):
others that this could work forthem.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, the absence of longitudinal data is actually
the largest obstacle to allthese modalities being approved,
because everybody wants the FDAstamp and you're not going to
get it for all this and therewill be significant pushback by
big pharma to anything that canenter their little SSRI, ssni
and benzo chokehold on mentalhealth.
(37:21):
And that's why you know we're ahuge proponent of plant
medicines and their impact.
I mean, I've got a friend whowas training in special forces
and they cacked off an implosionand a damn staircase came down
and hit him on the head and whenhe retired they did a brain
scan on him and they declaredhim terminal.
It was like, look, you got allthese fibrous tangles, you got
(37:44):
all this stuff in there thatwe've never seen before.
We don't know where it camefrom, but you better start
getting ready to go.
And he found psilocybin andright now they can't find
anything in his head.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
And that goes to speak to what you just said,
right, bruce?
So one of the hardest things todo is communicate this to
people, right?
There's just so much of thatstigma.
And so if you compare thatNortheastern study, right, which
was done like via an FDAapproved but that was an FDA
approved study and then youcompare the inhuman stories that
(38:19):
you just mentioned, and thenthat individual's brain scans,
and then you put those togetherand you can show, right, what
you're talking about are thoseprotein tau entanglements, and
then now this individual doesn'thave them anymore.
So that's real and we should belistening to that, even though
it wasn't done with a syntheticmedicine and it wasn't done
through an FDA approved study.
(38:40):
That to me doesn't matter, right, but that's the trick.
That's kind of the game reallythat we're all playing, right Is
how to put this into language.
And then, secondly, a lot ofpeople ask well, you're not
going to be able to publish itin nature or frontier.
And I'm like this is not forthe scientific community, this
(39:02):
is for individuals that thathave been through the system,
that are hopeless, that aresuicidal.
The number one cause of deathafter a traumatic brain injury
is suicide, and that's who thisis for this, isn't for anybody
else.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
No, and it shouldn't be.
I mean, right now, the peoplethat are finding, like I go to
quite a few ceremonies toobserve, to talk and the people
that are coming there have beenthrough everything that Big
Pharma has.
They've been through everythingthe whole healthcare, the, the,
the uh, the whole healthcaresystem has and they are done.
(39:39):
Nothing has helped them.
I talked to veterans that haveliterally a bag of 15 different
medications and they'll say Idon't want this, you know, for
whatever, whatever negativeimpact on their health that they
all cause.
I don't want this, no more.
And they're like well, let'sgive you more Right.
Well, let's give you more right, or let's try this other one.
(40:00):
No, it's all about what else isout there.
So let me ask you a quickquestion.
I ask everybody that's in thisspace, out of all the people so
you say 50 people have gonethrough your program how many of
them said that this has had apositive impact on my health and
my future?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
98%, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Now, yeah, so my daughter's a nurse practitioner
of psychiatric medicine, and thedrugs that she prescribed, you
said have a 7%.
She said, dad, they might help.
I have a 25% expectancy thatthey were going to improve or
positively impact my patient.
And then yet I talk topractitioners of ayahuasca,
psilocybin, ketamine, hbot.
(40:38):
You name all those therapiesthat you tried before you found
psilocybin.
Every one of them has anenormously high level of
positive impact on the patient.
And so what we're, you knowwhat we want to work with.
Providers like you is like say,look, why isn't this enough?
When people are literallygetting ready to suck on the end
of a pistol or run off a clifflike my son, or just think of
(41:01):
all the other tragedies that cantake place why don't we allow
them access to these modalitiesthat have changed lives in order
to save them?
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, I think things are changing.
So, you know, and I talked to alot of my friends, of people
that, like, are focusing on kindof the why not?
And you know, I'm trying tohighlight like.
So Enthea is, you know, aspecialty network program that
(41:33):
is actually working withemployers to to use their
insurance, um, to help peoplesubsidize this, this type of
treatment.
Uh, it's cash pay, you know.
So that's sometimes difficultfor people and the reason that
you know some people want to gothrough the FDA so that you know
they can play that whole um,capitalize on insurance and
those types of things.
So, um, but yeah, I just think,you know, I think, focusing on
(41:56):
messaging and and and collectingthis data, you know we're about
to, you know, raise funds to beable to put 25 people through
this program.
We already did eight and uh,and I think that'll go a long
way, you know, to to show andit's not expensive.
This isn't a clinical trial tospend $300 million, right, we're
talking about a couple hundredthousand dollars to be able to
(42:19):
show this and show it.
Well, so, and there's a lot offorces that pull people in,
right, but typically, and Ithink unfortunately, there's so
many people that have beenthrough the healthcare system,
especially with concussion, thathave spent so much money and
time, that are so frustratedthat you know.
(42:42):
And then there's so manystories that already are out
there of people positivelyimpacted that they're taking
advantage of this.
Careful to say it's not apanacea.
There's things that I do on ayearly basis to make sure that I
maintain my brain health andquality of life, mainly like a
lot of lifestyle things,obviously, and then I continue
(43:02):
to do this medicine once ortwice a year, but I mean, it's
by far the best medicine I'veever come across and it lasts,
you know, for me, with a goodlifestyle and good habits, like
up to six months.
I don't need anything else.
I just work out and eat welland and um, yeah, it's pretty
amazing.
(43:22):
Uh, good for you.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
And we and we noticed that too with other plant
medicines that you know, otherplant medicines, like, like
ayahuasca, is really good atpurging, you know, getting rid
of a lot of uh, you know, a lotof trauma.
So that you can focus on thosebetter, uh, lifestyles and
better change what it does tothe brain.
I think there's a lot of good,positive stuff there, because
you know it hurts, um, but youknow to your point is that you
(43:48):
know these are lifestyle changesthat are impacting people that
had no hope and if you've got to, you know, you know, continue
with a, you know a protocol onceor twice a year and your
lifestyle has increased from ahealth perspective, so so
drastically that you're backwith your family.
That's a hell of a lot betterthan being in the hole that a
lot of the folks that we talkedto are in.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
And it's a.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
It's amazing what you're doing and I would love to
get a copy of your legislation.
We have a very pro-veteranlegislation here.
We're doing a study withketamine right now and brain
supplementation Ayahuasca is alittle bit too far for the
Congress down here Like hey,dude, but if we could.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Ketamine is nice.
It's FDA approved.
What state are you in?
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Florida sir.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Oh you are, so am I.
I'm in Jupiter We've beentalking a lot about.
We have a couple ofrepresentatives that are
actually interested in some formof a possible adult therapeutic
use bill.
But, yeah, no, let's definitelywe'll exchange.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I got a couple more for you, cool, and we'll talk
about that, because we gotfunding for the ketamine study,
okay, so what I'd like to do iswork with you to submit your
study to the state, to go aheadand open that up here in the
state of Florida.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
And that's another reason why I started the center,
right, it's because there'sbeen over 9,000 people treated
in Oregon and nobody collectedany data.
And the reason that you wouldcollect data on top of this is
like, all right, we could showthis data in the veteran
population to other states andit'll be so much easier to open
up more of these programs.
So, yeah, absolutely, let's, um, you know, fortuitous.
(45:34):
You know I call this a God wink.
It's like, yeah, it's how Godworks, man.
No doubt, bro, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
He's all over this man?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah for sure, so let's do it.
That is amazing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
And I mean what you the battle right now, or another
person, because there's just somuch carnage out there and we
both deal with it on a dailybasis.
And I got a kid for you rightnow that really needs your
program and I'll even try tohelp, I'll raise the money for
it and a lot we can do together.
So, look, tell us how peoplefind you, man.
(46:14):
As I close out the show I'dlike to talk about.
You talked about studies, whereyou're at right now, where
you're going, and then how dopeople find out about your
clinic, the program, where canthey go to research psilocybin
so they understand?
Number one, you need tounderstand what you're dealing
with.
And then, number two, what arethe potential outcomes that
could change their lives?
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Thanks for asking.
So I'm on Instagram prettyregularly.
So, daniel Carcillo 13.
Linkedin is just my name,facebook my name.
Our center is called experienceonward, so websites
wwwexperienceonwardcom.
We've got a number of differentresources there, so all the
(46:56):
links to over 150 cited studiesfrom Johns Hopkins.
We've got Andrew Huberman onthere talking about the risks
and benefits in a prettyextensive 40-minute YouTube
about the science and everythinginvolving psilocybin and we've
also got a clip from RolandGriffiths, who's the who was the
(47:17):
lead researcher at JohnsHopkins.
He recently, you know, passedaway from a cancer diagnosis.
But you know, just talkingabout, you know, all the studies
that they've done on end oflife anxiety in terminally ill
cancer patients and and, anddepression, and and.
So there's pretty goodresources on the website for
people to get to get started.
Um, and you know I I have a,you know a business line that's
(47:41):
that's attached to my phone thatpeople can, um, you know, text
and and uh, and then email isdanielatexperienceonwardcom.
So if anyone reaches out andthey want more information, I've
got decks and documents readyto go, specifically on
concussion and the latestresearch.
So, yeah, just reach outthrough those platforms.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Dude, I wish I would have met you earlier, because
Friday we're having an actual,the first town hall of
repetitive blast exposure andwe've got a panel of veterans
and a panel of specialists andmodalities that are not normal.
I wonder if I can squeeze youin.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
But where's, uh, where's it at it's in uh, tampa.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Uh, we're having the first and we're we have we host
the only repetitive brain uhsummit on repetitive brain
trauma in the world in tampa.
It's going to be september 3rdand 4th, so I'd love to have you
come out and maybe give apresentation on psilocybin.
It would be great.
It's a two-day summit.
We got a lot of really greatspeakers and presenters there,
so we'll get you the invite.
(48:43):
So, daniel man, thank you somuch for the time you get to
spend with me today.
What an amazing journey you'vebeen on.
God bless you and yourorganization, and thank you for
the work you've done on yourself, for your family, and the work
that you're doing for others,and we look forward to hearing
from you later on and we'll haveyou back on the show for sure.
Awesome, appreciate it, bruceCool.
(49:03):
All right, folks, as we closeout, another amazing episode of
Broken Brains with another justa special guest, daniel Carcio,
make sure you reach out to him,make sure you find him, because
if you don't know aboutpsilocybin and you know people
that are struggling, I'm tellingyou it's one of those medicines
out there that can help, andwhen people at the end, you know
, that's why the show exists Now, you know, get out there.
(49:25):
If there's somebody that needshelp, reach out to Daniel and
let them know.
By the way, the book the onlybook for parents free on our
website Go out there, get it,give it away Birthday presents,
whatever.
The town hall on Friday is goingto be a big event that we had
to reschedule because ofconstruction concerns last month
.
So that'll be the RepetitiveBrain, repetitive Blast Exposure
(49:48):
Town Hall we're hosting.
Do expect we're going to haveour NFL seminar, which we're
going to open up to NHL players,on repetitive head impacts how
to diagnose them, how tovalidate them and then how to go
back to your providers forcoverage.
And then what are theseprograms, like Daniel's, that
can help you get back on yourfeet.
We'll have a seminar forparents and, don't forget, our
(50:09):
Summit on Repetitive BrainTrauma is going to be September
2nd and 3rd here in Tampa.
Amazing guests showing up rightnow, some of the top-ranked
speakers in the country on thisissue, which, again, is not
taught in any medical, nursing,psychological course.
And, like Daniel, you have tofind your way, unfortunately,
until we get this fixed.
So, for all of you, thank youso much.
(50:31):
Keep your brains healthy.
We'll talk to you later.
Another exciting episode.
No-transcript.
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