April 21, 2025 • 48 mins
In this powerful episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, we dive deep into the future of concussion treatment and brain trauma recovery with trailblazing physician Dr. Daphne Denham, one of the nation’s leading experts in hyperbaric medicine.
Dr. Denham shares her pioneering approach to treating repetitive brain injuries—particularly in athletes, youth sports, and military veterans—using Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy (HBOT). Discover how this cutting-edge treatment works at the cellular level to heal the brain, reduce inflammation, and restore cognitive function after concussions.
From her early experiences in the medical field to becoming a leading voice in brain health advocacy, Dr. Denham walks us through the urgent need for:
· Concussion awareness and early detection, especially in children
· The dangers of untreated sports injuries
· Innovative assessment tools for tracking brain health
· A national shift toward proactive prevention and recovery protocols
· This episode is a must-watch for parents, coaches, healthcare professionals, veterans, and anyone passionate about mental health, brain healing, and safe sports practices.
📣 Call to Action:
If you or someone you love is navigating concussion recovery or wants to learn more about cutting-edge brain injury treatments, this episode is for you.
💥 Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe to Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman on your favorite platform to help us spread awareness and save lives.
🔗 Subscribe & Listen Now:
👉 YouTube
👉 Spotify
👉 Apple Podcasts
Support brain injury advocacy and join the conversation about changing the future of sports safety.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is sponsored by The Mac Parkman Foundation
Support The Mac Parkman Foundation by donating today!
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=CR24MY2GDUCZL
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
01:00 Dr. Daphne Denham: A Pioneer in Hyperbaric Medicine
02:56 Understanding Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy
06:11 Mechanisms of Healing with Hyperbaric Therapy
09:01 Treatment Protocols for Concussions
11:36 Assessing Recovery and Return to Play
13:48 The Importance of Accommodations in Schools
17:30 Dr. Denham's Journey into Concussion Treatment
20:48 The Gap in Knowledge About Concussions
23:49 The Cranky Teenager List and Mental Health
26:21 Concussion Awareness and Community Support
26:48 The Importance of Education in Concussion Awareness
29:08 Understanding Brain Injuries and Their Impact
32:01 Challenges in Concussion Treatment and Awareness
34:30 Preventing Future Concussions
39:21 Innovative Assessment Tools for Brain Health
42:21 The Need for Comprehensive Brain Health Protocols
45:54 Advocating for Change in Concussion Treatment
https://www.mpfact.com/headsmart-app/
Produced by Security Halt Media
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation.
The Mack Parkman Foundation.
Our podcast is focused on theissue of repetitive brain trauma
in the forms of repetitive headimpacts from sports and
repetitive blast exposure forour veterans, and what these
(00:32):
impacts are doing they'rechanging the brains of our kids,
athletes and veterans.
That's resulting in the largestpreventable cause of mental
illness in this country, andthis is why we reach out to an
amazing group of researchers andscientists and players and
athletes and people that havebeen struggling with conditions
for years, in order to bring youthe information, because this
(00:55):
is not taught in any medical,nursing or psychological course
in this country.
Everybody that you meet will beunprepared to talk about this
issue, and you need to protectyour kids.
You need to protect yourself.
So today we have another amazingguest, dr Daphne Denham,
dialing in from Fargo, northDakota.
She's a pioneering physician inhyperbaric medicine and
(01:16):
concussion treatment.
After completing medical schoolat the University of Louisville
and surgical training at theUniversity of Southern Florida,
right here in Tampa ofLouisville and surgical training
at the University of SouthernFlorida right here in Tampa, dr
Denham shifted her focus towound care and hyperbaric
medicine while raising her sixchildren.
Her passion for concussiontreatment began in 2015, when
she witnessed firsthand howhyperbaric oxygen therapy HBOT
(01:38):
could accelerate recovery.
Since then, she has dedicatednearly a decade to refining
protocols and collecting data torevolutionize concussion care,
and in 2018, she partnered withentrepreneur Gary Thelmson to
open Healing with Hyperbarics ofNorth Dakota, expanding access
to these groundbreakingtreatments because, as we're
(01:58):
going to talk about, this is notavailable down the street.
With over 100,000 concussionstreated and patients traveling
from hundreds of miles away, drDenim is not only a leader in
the hyperbaric community, but adriving force in refining
concussion recovery.
Dr Daphne, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, thank you very much.
It's truly a pleasure and, aswhat you are doing, education is
beyond the word of the day.
But we've got to education andawareness.
Get it out there.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yes, ma'am.
So you said I mean you.
So you operate a hyperbariccenter here in Fargo.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
In Fargo and in Northbrook Illinois.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's the one I started in 2015.
And we that one is still open,even though I'm in Fargo.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Nice man, very, very interesting, and so you offer, I
guess, hyperbaric.
You know, do you have a hardchamber or a soft chamber, and
can you explain to our audiencewhat the difference is between
them?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So we have in Fargo six Sechrist hard chambers and
in Northbrook we have four hardchambers and I use the example
of someone saying I need painmedicine.
Does pain medicine meanover-the-counter Tylenol or does
(03:28):
pain medicine mean IV morphineand not to get into opioids?
But soft chambers are likegoing to the drugstore and
buying over-the-counter Tylenol.
And the level of therapy thatwe use with the hard chambers is
like requiring a physician anda prescription and much more
(03:55):
concentrated, much moretherapeutic drugs.
During a treatment forconcussions we often raise the
oxygen concentration in theliquid part of blood so not on
red blood cells but in theliquid part of blood by 1,000%.
And why that's important forconcussions and for
(04:20):
subconcussive injuries or theblast effects for veterans etc.
Is that brain cells are likethe elite athletes.
They are consuming much moreoxygen than we moms sitting on
the benches.
But after an injury, be itsub-concussive, full-blown
(04:44):
concussion etc.
A brain cell is benched.
It is not getting the energythat it needs to function at the
elite level that it was.
In addition, it is injured.
So not only is it gettingbaseline enough, it's not
getting more than enough torepair.
(05:06):
So by raising the oxygenconcentration up with hyperbaric
oxygen in the liquid part ofblood that allows the oxygen to
diffuse into the brain cellsbetter, better we are able to
(05:29):
get enough oxygen for thosebrain cells to repair, basically
unbench them and put them backinto the gape.
In addition, we are seeingfewer repeat concussions,
subsequent concussions.
I've been doing this 10 years.
We see a few patients back, butnot at the rates that are
published of subsequentconcussions.
(05:51):
So likely the response ofhyperbaric, of turning off that
brain inflammation that we getturned on with a concussion that
primes the brain for subsequentconcussions and causes so many
different problems leading toCTE.
(06:13):
We are turning thatinflammatory response off.
Best we can tell by theobjective tests we're using.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Wow, and what are the mechanisms by which hyperbaric
in your words, hyperbaric oxygentherapy is helping to heal
those bench brain cells?
What are they doing with thisoxygen?
Because don't they need, likeprotein and other nutrients, to
heal as well?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
The brain basically would survive on just glucose,
which is why everyone who goesto a ketogenic diet, the South
Beach Atkins, would getheadaches Because it takes.
The brain wants glucose.
If you're going to do somethingelse, there's a transition.
So the brain is content withglucose and oxygen.
(07:02):
That simple content withglucose and oxygen that simple.
After an injury and there's anarticle by Dr Christopher Geise
called the neurometaboliccascade of a concussion that I
love and after an injury thereis a huge demand for more energy
for those cells to repair.
Demand for more energy forthose cells to repair.
(07:24):
But he demonstrates in labanimals they've shown a decrease
in blood flow right after aconcussion.
So the simple fact ishyperbaric is hyperoxygenating
the tissue, giving it enoughoxygen to repair.
Hyperbaric also reducesswelling, even mild swelling,
(07:50):
like when you stub your toe.
There is mild swelling of thebrain, maybe not detectable by
studies, but when you hit yourbrain against your skull,
there's a tiny bit of swellingthat pushes against those
precious vessels and decreasesblood flow to the injury, so
decreasing the swelling.
(08:11):
We open those blood vesselsback up and restore blood flow
to what it was before the injuryand inflammatory cells are
turned on different mechanisms,but a low oxygen environment
causes even more inflammationand there are multiple research
(08:34):
studies showing hyperbaricoxygen turns off inflammatory
cells inflammatory cells.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Wow, and we do know that it's the long-term exposure
to repetitive head impacts thatcreates that long-term
inflammatory environment.
That is absolutelycontradictory to brain health
and brain growth.
And the swelling also reducesthose vessels.
So that makes absolute perfectsense.
Wow.
So when you put these people inthose hard caskets there you
(09:09):
know the capsules I keepthinking like Star Trek, right
when, at the end of one of them,when they had all these bodies
in those chambers.
So what's the treatmentprotocol?
I mean, what do you when, you,when, when folks travel to you?
I mean, what do you when you,when folks travel to?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
you are she.
We look at how long ago wasyour concussion, how many
previous concussions have youhad?
Were you still having symptomsbefore you got this concussion
(09:49):
or is this all justsub-concussive hits?
And we have multiple differentprotocols that we start at a
starting point and mytechnicians are incredible
checking in with patients every10 to 20 minutes to make sure
that the protocol that we're onis working and we actually
progress from a 1.5 atmosphere,which is what everyone is using
(10:11):
for post-concussive syndrome,ptsd for the veterans we
actually progress over thecourse of either a single
treatment for acute concussionsor multiple treatments for
post-concussive syndrome, makingsure that we are not causing a
(10:31):
headache.
The way hyperbaric gets rid ofswelling is by vasoconstricting
or tightening the vessels, andthere's already abnormal
tightening of the vessels from aconcussion, so we want to make
sure we're not tightening tooquickly.
But so we started a startingpoint and just keep working out
(10:57):
with each individual.
But it's about an hour for thebrain and ideally with acute
concussions it is two treatmentsa day until they are sustained,
symptom free, more than 12hours out from a treatment and
no symptoms, but full brainactivity back and our average
(11:20):
for acute concussions is onlyfour treatments if we see
patients within the first week.
So we're not talking about ahuge number of treatments.
We're talking about potentiallytwo days.
When we see patients who areinjured the night before,
hopefully by day three or fourafter injury, they're sitting in
(11:43):
homeroom as if they've not hada concussion.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And when you assess them to say, hey, you know
you're back, you know you returnto play protocols, you're able
to go back.
What is that based on?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
So we have used several objective tests.
We've used right eye, we'veused brain scope.
We're looking at neurocatchright now but ironically the
objective test fit with oursubjective assessment, our
(12:31):
subjective assessment.
But we have patients do a braintest.
Not the return to play physicalactivity.
If you look at the five-dayreturn to play or day six, it's
riding an exercise bike.
It's, you know, non-contactdrills For athletes.
That's all physical activity.
We send them to the sportsstore.
Here in Fargo we have Shields.
(12:51):
It's a two-story sporting goodsstore with a Ferris wheel in
the middle of it.
It is circuit overload for thebrain.
But if someone who's had aconcussion is fully treated,
they can walk through Shieldsfor an hour and it's not too
much sensory input.
(13:12):
They don't get a headache,they're not light sensitive.
Or we send them back to school.
I personally think it's medicalmalpractice that we allow
athletes to return to play ifthey are still on accommodations
for school.
If we have accommodations forschool, we are saying the brain
(13:36):
is not functioning as it should,but yet we're letting them go
back to a contact sport.
That should be not allowed.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So explain to me.
I've never heard this term.
Accommodations for sport, Imean for school.
What's that all about?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
When the brain is not functioning correctly.
Too much activity brings onsymptoms.
That's why they wear sunglasses.
They avoid rock concerts.
You know brain injuredindividuals know when enough is
enough and too much is too much.
So schools will often say youcan eat lunch in the library so
(14:27):
you're not in the cafeteria withall the sensory, the noise, the
people, all of the activity.
You can pass before or afternormal passing periods.
If you go down a high schoolhallway during passing periods,
talk about brain circuitoverload.
Everybody's talking runningaround.
(14:50):
So we need to test the brainand make sure the brain is able
to take all of this activity andis functioning basically at
100% before we let athletes backon the field.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So is that, and who makes that assessment?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Different people.
Some schools it's an athletictrainer, some places have a PsyD
, a psychologist approved, someplaces it's a medical, it's a
physician.
But I treated.
When we first opened Fargo Itreated a physician's son four
(15:38):
previous concussions.
Don't worry, I've been clearedto go back to football.
Concussions Don't worry, I'vebeen cleared to go back to
football.
We did a right eye test for himand he failed it miserably and I
said I can let you be our firstconcussion for the season, or I
can sleep better by treatingyou now and then letting you
play with a healthier brain.
(15:59):
And sure enough, his right eyescore went back up into the
normal range.
He came in laughing after hisfourth treatment and he said
even my dad noticed I'm better,all of my friends have noticed
I'm better and he played thewhole football season without a
concussion.
And that was five years ago.
(16:21):
I haven't seen him since for atreatment.
He's had no further injuriesbut he's still been playing
football.
They're not always in anorganized sport.
(16:42):
I used to laugh and say I putmy sons in organized sports so
they wouldn't do more damage totheir brains and what they could
find on their own.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, because they're always falling out of trees and
whatever.
Right, yeah, but you can't takethat out.
But we can take the RHI down orout of the sport by promoting
more.
I mean, trust me, you're alwaysgoing to be in business.
I wish not.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Business will go down .
Speaker 1 (17:14):
No, I'm just talking.
You know the kids that get in.
I mean, you know therollerblades and all this other
stuff skateboards they're alwaysgoing to be finding you.
So how did you get in all thisother stuff skateboards they're
always going to be finding you.
And so how did how did you getin all this?
I mean you, you're, you knowyou.
You went to surgery, surgicaltraining, right, I mean you were
a doctor, doctor and now thisis your life.
(17:35):
So how did you make thattransition?
Because, I mean, obviously it'syour passion.
This is amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
After my fourth child I took a professional time out.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I got tired of trying to be a boy With school or with
kids, with kids.
I had two more Professional mom, right, I mean, that's the way
my wife would say it.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I was a secret doctor and stay-at-home mom and,
honestly, my boards were comingup and I needed to be hospital
affiliated.
I was not about to lose mysurgery boards.
So I started working in a woundand hyperbaric center.
We had a patient with frostbite.
Her toes were purple and dyingand dying.
(18:29):
We did a hyperbaric treatmentand her toes were pink and
viable and with four or fivetreatments, no problems.
She saved all 10 toes.
Wow.
And then, two or three weekendslater, I'm sitting in a
volleyball tournament and ifyou've ever been to volleyball
tournaments they have about 10courts all lined up and all of
(18:50):
these balls are flying.
And one of my daughter'steammates had had multiple
concussions.
She just tossed her head backto get into position to play.
Her head back to get intoposition to play and she just
(19:10):
the head toss injured herinflamed brain enough.
She excused herself and had toleave.
And I'm sitting there thinkingif we can save purple toes, what
can we do for the break?
So a few years later, thehospitals wouldn't work with me.
I had to open my own center and,as fate would have it, my
daughter had a concussion and,like all working parents, I left
(19:33):
her with the babysitter, I wentto work.
I called home at lunch and shesaid I feel terrible.
I feel terrible.
She came in curled up in afetal position, not moving at
all, and we did a treatmentwhich is now the basis of our
acute concussion protocol.
And she rolls over and she saysokay, mom, how much longer do I
(20:00):
have to be in here?
And I thought why do we wait Ifwe can make this much of a
(20:23):
difference?
Why let the brain see what it'sgoing to do and the number of
medical people who have saidwell, 90% of concussions are
better in 10 days.
But what's better?
There was a survey of almost15,000 high school athletes and
almost 40% who had had a historyof one or more concussions
admitted to feelings ofhopelessness and depression.
So if we're 90% better in 10days, how is it that 40% of
(20:51):
patients with a history of aconcussion are still having
issues?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Man, yeah, I mean, there's obviously a complete
lack or gap in knowledge betweeneven just concussions and
concussion treatment.
I didn't even know you could doa post-concussion syndrome test
.
Right that you can literallykeep testing your kid, because
when the doctor says two weeksat home and then clears them,
(21:21):
well, you're trusting yourdoctor, right, You're, you know?
You don't know but they don'tknow, and that's the yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So I have been fortunate to be able to speak to
the North Dakota High SchoolAthletic Association meeting and
I tell the coaches and athletictrainers every year that the
symptoms for post-concussionsyndrome and you can have that
(21:50):
from a concussion or fromsub-concussive events and not
really know one specific hit,but I call it the cranky
teenager list and we can dismissevery one of the symptoms.
They're more tired than usual,they're irritable, they're more
(22:11):
emotional, they get headaches,they're more sad than usual,
they're nervous, less emotional.
I mean you can excuse awayevery one of the symptoms as
well.
Of course he is.
He's playing football andpractice is hard and he's got a
(22:34):
test coming up and he wants toask this girl out.
And you start listing excuses.
But when you take them alltogether, all of a sudden you
recognize why am I checkingpositive for more than half of
the symptoms?
So if you have a crankyteenager, take a step back and
(22:59):
make sure it's not from a headinjury.
And we need objective screeningin pediatrician offices, every
psychiatrist's office, beforethey put them on a medication,
make sure it's not an underlyinghead injury, because the
(23:21):
underlying head injury kids donot respond to the medications
like true organic depressions,because they have a brain injury
it's an injured brain that itdoesn't matter how many
serotonin uptake inhibitors youthrow at them if
their brain cells can't makeserotonin because they're not
(23:44):
getting enough oxygen and theinflammation is taking the
oxygen away.
You just keep upping that drugand the kids become more
nauseous.
And I know too much about thatpathway and I can't tell you the
number of kids I've seen overthe years that when they start
(24:05):
getting better I'll ask them howthey are and they kind of get
close to me and whisper I was ina deep dark hole.
I never want to go back there.
No one understands what I wasgoing through and I'm so glad to
be past it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know, folks, this is what I'd like you to listen
to, because my son is not herebecause of what Dr Denham just
said.
Everything that, mac, you know,displayed apathy.
You know, we liked his roomdark, we sleeping late.
You know, we literally saidexactly that he's playing
(24:46):
football, he's growing up, he'suh, he's getting ready to join
the army.
We could, we literallyexplained away all these issues
and we had, you know, and andour ignorance, and I am certain
that what Dr Daphne's talkingabout could have absolutely
(25:07):
helped my son, because thesechildren do not tell us they're
struggling, they love us.
And my son's last words to oneof his best friends, when he
told him he was struggling, notwith suicidal ideation, just he
didn't want to play football, hewas tired, was I don't want to
disappoint or let anybody down.
And our children love us to thepoint where they will not tell
(25:29):
us.
And we have to be informed thatthis cranky teenager system
which is an amazing way to saythis is absolutely could be the
result of contact sports.
Contact sports, but unless youknow that there is a correlation
between long-term exposure, rhior multiple concussions that
(25:52):
have not healed, and thiscrankiness, guess what?
Your kid is going to getdrugged.
They're going to go see apsychiatrist because they are
cranky and they are depressed orwhatever, and they're going to
feed them medications and,because you do not know, they're
going to keep playing thesesports and then their brains are
going to continue to degrade,like our sons, and spiral until
they do something horrible.
And this is why we exist.
(26:14):
Daphne and Bruce are here topass this information on,
because you do not know.
And now you have a betterchance of making these decisions
or at least you know, beingaware that your child is not
struggling because of you know,just depression.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So, bruce, my daughter, who works in the Fargo
Clinic, Menly, started aconcussion awareness program
program and we are trying tomake sure that coaches, athletic
(26:52):
trainers, but also all of yourfellow teammates are aware of
looking out for each other andwhen a teammate seems to have
struggles or shares somethinglike that, we have had patients
come in and say I don't know whyI'm here, but my teammates told
me I should come and then we'lltreat them and they'll come out
(27:16):
and they'll say oh wow, theywere right, I wasn't acting like
myself.
It's much more than justparents.
It's got to be education acrossthe board.
We need to do a better job ofeducating our students in health
class.
We should have a concussionawareness day every year.
(27:39):
Starting second grade up.
We teach health, we teach dietand exercise, how to splint a
broken arm.
Why are we not teaching how tolook out for and recognize brain
injuries and brain injured?
(28:02):
Individuals do not always knowthat they're injured.
I've had countless patientsthat you know.
A football player lostconsciousness on the field,
ambulance, hospital, ct, you'vegot a concussion.
Fortunately his pediatricianknew me and said go see Denim.
(28:25):
So Saturday after a Fridaynight football game, he comes in
.
I don't know why I'm here, I'mOK, I'm OK, I'm OK.
And then, looking back, he justkept saying I'm OK.
After his treatment he stood upand he was about six, two and I
looked up at him and he saiddude, I was totally messed up.
(28:48):
An injured brain, can you know?
A brain can say you broke yourarm, it hurts, you need to go
see somebody.
An injured brain that messagedoesn't always get through.
And the same with kidsreturning to play.
Everybody says, oh, they liebecause they want to get back to
playing.
Yes, they want to get back toplaying, but they don't know
(29:12):
that they're lying.
We've got to incorporateobjective tasks and better
education and education toathletes that you know, if you
feel a little off, let's testyou.
And some have said I don't wantto admit to it because they'll
just put me in a dark room.
If we can also get the messageout, no, we can treat you and
(29:37):
within two days, three days,certainly less than a week,
we're going to get you back onthe field playing way better
than you would be playingconcussed.
There's an enormous amount ofeducation and awareness that we
need to do at multiple levels.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Multiple levels.
I mean, yeah, it's, I mean it'sall the way from, and I think
the kids are.
That's a very powerful message,because these children are now
starting to get it.
I mean, they don't have thereligious fervor all the way
from, and I think the kids are.
That's a very powerful message,because these children are now
starting to get it.
I mean, they don't have thereligious fervor for sports that
you know their parents have,you know, for football or
whatever sport that you're in.
Uh, they're, they're, they.
(30:16):
They value their brain, sothey're they're more willing to
listen now to you know, and andthey take care of each other.
So I think you know, startingthat is uh, is um, you know is
is important.
How do you, um impart thatknowledge?
Is it like a seminar?
Do you get them in the gym?
Or you know, how do you?
How do you give them thatawareness training?
(30:37):
Cause, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
We have worked out with a few teams and
unfortunately some hospitalsystems try to block us because
they pay for the athletictrainer and there's so much
politics in medicine.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
but we're not going to waste time on that Wait, they
tried to block you from givingconcussion.
What was their motive?
Why would they not want you tospeak on?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
They don't want the kids to know they can be treated
with hyperbaric.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Oh, because they don't provide it.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Don't even, let's not go there.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
No, we need to.
I mean only because you knowpeople need to be aware that we
are constantly talking to peoplelike you that have modalities
from, you know,photobiomodulation, tms, hbot,
vagus, nerve stimulation,psychedelic therapies that are
improving lives, and we're onthis continuous, wide-ranging
battlefront to make thesemodalities available to people
(31:38):
that need them because, well,they work.
I'm sorry, you know, it's not apill that you take for the rest
of your life.
This stuff works, whether youget them back on the field, or
you get them back in the policecar, or you get them back on the
job.
These things work.
So that is, yeah, it'sabsolutely one of the things we
need to dial into, because it'sthe biggest impediment to
(32:01):
adequate care for these injuriesin this country, because all
you're going to get are drugsand therapy and, I'm sorry, they
don't fix a damaged brain, youknow there is huge money in
concussions not being healed oh.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Medicine will.
Even physicians that I haveshared my objective data with
have told patients of mine.
You don't need to keep goingfor hyperbaric.
It doesn't work, even afterseeing objective data and we're
hoping that will be publishedsometime 2025.
(32:45):
And and there will be somephysicians that get
signature-required registeredmail.
A copy of my article.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Ah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Because the game is over.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, no, I mean, and then you got.
You know, we just interviewedJoe Duterte with his big HBOT
study down in Florida too,looking at that gold standard.
It's all coming to a forefronthere.
You know where we have to startlooking at alternatives and
cheaper.
I mean, you know what do youcharge for a hyperbaric Like?
So you know you get a patient.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
You know what do you charge to go in $225 in Fargo
because our oxygen costs are sohigh.
But we're meeting again withthe oxygen supplier to work on
that.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And that's per treatment, that's for one
treatment, and they could needwhatever they need until they
get it done.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
But we try to have packages of five, packages of 10
, a payment plan.
Most patient families wouldprobably save money by doing
acute concussion treatments upfront than what they end up
paying in co-pays for all of thephysical therapy, occupational
(34:02):
therapy, the MRI, the visiontherapy, the vestibular therapy,
not to mention how behind thestudent gets in school and how
much time off of work parentstake.
We're slowly collecting thatdata as well to try to show
(34:23):
private insurance companies itwould be cheaper to take a more
aggressive treat, a concussionapproach.
And especially if we can showthat we can prevent concussions
by preventing the subsequentconcussions.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I mean now going to that a little bit how
do you prevent futureconcussions?
I mean, if a kid's going to goout there and hit his head on a
football field or something, Imean going to go out there and
hit his head on a football fieldor something.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I mean.
What we find with subsequentconcussions is it takes less of
a hit and they end up havingmore symptoms, and what the
animal models show is that braininflammation that we've talked
about keeps the brain crying, soit's easier to injure the next
(35:26):
time, as if it has not beenconcussed.
Then they can go back out andnot have more subsequent
concussions.
We often see someone had aconcussion, then two years later
they had another one, then ayear later and then six months
later.
The interval shrink.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I just don't want parents to think that, you know,
by going to HBOT training youcan play sports and they may be
made safe, because when it comesto RHI, you just cannot avoid
the damage that's going to occurfrom long-term exposure.
We are talking about sportsthat are being played.
I mean we can't stop that rightnow.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Okay, but we screened a football team and five of the
players really performed poorlyin our screening, so we gave
them each 10 treatments andtheir performance on the
screening test went back up intothe normal range okay one of
(36:30):
the things we should be doingfor contact sports is screening
at the beginning of the seasonand at the end of the season, so
we catch everyone who haschanges, whether it's a
concussion they didn't report oran accumulation of
(36:51):
subconcussive events.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
So this is not.
I mean I know there's some kindof like the impact test is out
there, but even that there's notyou know well, I mean it's not.
Well.
Some people say it's not youknow.
You can just you know you knowlike fake the test out.
The other part is is that nowhospitals or they make so little
money they don't even offer itanymore because they have no
(37:15):
monetary incentive.
So that those well, so what doyou use for an assessment?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
we have used the right eye tool, which examines
how both eyes are able to trackthe same cursor on a screen and
the machine picks up how eacheye does it.
Wow, okay, and with concussions, the brain eye relay system is
(37:43):
not always working.
There's another test called eyebox, where they just look and
watch a video clip and themachine tracks how their eyes
are participating watching thevideo and if the eyes basically
are in sync, because oftenthey're not.
(38:05):
We have also used BrainScope,which the NFL and Department of
Defense helped develop, which islittle stickers with a headset.
It's EEG based, so we'relooking for abnormal brain waves
.
There's the QEEG.
There are multiple objectivetests.
(38:30):
Impact is supposed to beobjective, but if you listen to
college kids, they'll tell eachother when you know the answer.
Count to three before youanswer, because they know
they're slowed down with aconcussion.
So we're looking for tests thatcollege students can't outsmart
(38:51):
.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, and that's the big problem with a lot of
baseline tests Plus, you know weonly give them when the kids
have a concussion and, to yourpoint, we should be testing at
the beginning and at the end ofeach year.
And I think for parents outthere, there's something you
should demand your high schoolsdo and I think after our son
left, they started doing thatand they also reduced contact by
60%.
(39:13):
We're seeing this.
You know there are trends rightnow that are very favorable,
both towards reducing our HI and, at the same time, you know,
looking at alternativemodalities, like, you know, hbot
to, you know to improve, youknow brain health and recovery.
So you know brain health andrecovery.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
So you know, that's that.
That's all amazing, but we'vegot to educate the athletes, the
coaches, the trainers, thepediatricians to think brain
injury before they pull out theprescription pad.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I absolutely.
If they and that's I mean we.
You know, we have the traumaticencephalopathy syndrome
protocols that were approved byNINDS in 2019, never validated.
Four simple questions.
You can put them in anyassessment toolkit and at least
have an indication, but withoutthe education you point, that's
(40:06):
true.
I mean, shouldn't there be somekind of CME program out there?
I mean it's not hard to saylook, you check the heart, you
check the lungs, you tap them onthe knee.
Can you please ask them somequestions about their brain,
because out of all of this, itis the most important heart.
I mean, you have a heart and abrain right.
(40:27):
Everything else all right, youcan live without, but you cannot
function in life without abrain, you know, and even a
heart, you can keep going.
You can be a ding-dong.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I was going to say as a general surgeon.
We used to have patients on theECMO machine and the LVAD, so
hearts are temporarilyreplaceable.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
But you ain't replacing.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
So, yeah, it's just.
Yeah, I'm hoping that over time, you know, we get, you know,
insurance coverage.
We're putting it, we're pushingfor insurance to be covering
these things because in the end,to your point, it saves money.
It's if we can get these kidstreated, then it saves money.
Product in terms ofproductivity in terms of, you
know, life in terms ofproductivity in terms of life in
terms of medical costs.
(41:13):
I mean gosh, I mean thisdoesn't take a lot of brain size
.
So my question to you is whyisn't H5 widely accepted when we
have all this evidence that ithelps?
That's what we're looking for.
We're just saying just do stuffthat helps these kids in their
brains, not drugs.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
For many physicians that I've run into, I call it
the arrogance of ignorance.
They know nothing about it, sothey arrogantly say it doesn't
work.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
That's true.
I challenged the top concussionexpert for Chad to uh in Canada
on the issue of subcursivetrauma and how that affects
return to play and he's like I'mnot really educated in that
topic.
I'm like, really, you're thetop concussion doc out there,
you're writing the protocols andyou have no idea what
subcursive trauma is.
Come on, dude.
But you know it's yeah, I can,I can see that.
(42:08):
But you know it's yeah, I can,I can see that.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
But the return to play that the Canadian hockey
team is actually responsible fordeveloping.
If you pull it out, google it,pull it out.
It is physical health related,do you?
Speaker 1 (42:29):
get symptoms.
Yeah, they want you back up.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
We need brain health return to play.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Can you go back to school?
Can you be in a crowded, loudroom?
Can you go to a restaurant,read the menu while dishes are
clanging everywhere and ordersomething?
No, flip out.
Can you read a paragraph, keepboth of your eyes on the same
(43:07):
word and remember what you read?
Wow, if we're going to say thebrain has recovered.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
please test the brain Right.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
It makes sense to me.
I mean, you put it in English.
You know.
No wonder doctors don't likethis stuff.
Man, you're not making it fancyenough.
No, I mean it's just yeah.
I mean we've definitely got toget the word out and it's so
important and this is absolutelyone of the frontiers.
So tell us a little bit more aswe close out.
Where can people find you forinformation?
Do you have a website?
(43:39):
Do you have any literature?
Are you going to open upanother clinic?
What's Dr Daphne going to do?
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I would love to teach our protocols to other clinics
and make sure that otherhyperbaric technicians will
follow checking on patients andthat we do more other types of
objective testing so that we can.
(44:08):
You know, you want right eyedata.
You want brain scope datahere's data using neurocatch
here's.
What more data do you want toshow that we're actually truly
treating concussions instead ofmedicating?
And I want to see programs putinto schools, put into
(44:31):
psychiatric training and, youknow, really educate across the
board.
As I said, teachers, athletictrainers, individual athletes,
parents, you know, makeeverybody aware.
Watch out for the crankyteenager it may not just be.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I'm borrowing that one.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
No, because that was my son look it up, it's the
river mead post-concussionsyndrome scale that we have
renamed the cranky teenager list, and every one of us has a
tanky teenager at one time oranother well, I've had six oh
(45:17):
man, my youngest is over 18, sooh, gosh, man I, it is
heartbreaking to know that.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
You know, with a little bit of help, a little bit
of you know, my son talkingmore or or or me, just you know,
just understand that this couldhave been an issue.
I mean, of course, we wouldn'tbe having this conversation
because I'd be sitting with himdrinking beer, just keeping him
on this face of this earth,cause that's all I.
All I want to do is just bewith my boy.
(45:44):
But, uh, you know, this is thisis what's so important and this
is what people need to be awareof, that it is something that
helps that it is out there.
You can find hyperbaric uhtreatment centers around this
country.
It's not just in fargo, northcarolina, north north dakota.
Take a look, um, dr dafty.
Thank you, so you know, keepgoing, keep going healing with
(46:06):
hyperbarics is our website.
Okay, healing with Hyperbarics.
We'll put that.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
And it's the name of our clinics.
But I'm not pushing my clinic.
I want education, awareness andtreatment.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Well, ma'am, you are a very, very generous woman and
I can feel the presence of theLord with you, and I so thank
you for your dedication to ourchildren yourself, for service
to them and for coming on thisshow and making us aware of how
important it is to think outsidethe box.
You hear that medical andpharma guys Okay, and that we
can help these kids and we can,you know, make sports safer and
(46:47):
we can protect them.
We should be doing that.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I cannot thank you enough.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Thank you, and it's truly an honor.
No problem.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Nope, and my final pitch at all Remember we've got
a free book online right here.
Go get it on the website.
Download it, give it to yourmom, give it to you.
If you're a grandparent, giveit to your grandkids.
You know, help us spread theword.
We've got the Veterans TownHall on March 28th this might be
out there after that and oursecond annual conference on
(47:20):
repetitive brain trauma, hostedhere in Tampa September 3rd and
4th.
Hope to see you all there.
It's going to be a great time.
We've got a lot of peoplecoming back from last year and
then 7026, dc.
Thank you so much for listeningto Dr Denham.
I really appreciate yourattention to the podcast.
Like us, spread us around.
Tell people that we give a dangabout our children and this
(47:42):
ends now.
This whole exposing our kids topain and suffering and mental
anguish ends right now.
We're going to do it.
The legislation will be on ourwebsite for you to take a look
at.
Please support it.
Write your congressman andwe'll keep things moving.
Thank you so much, bruceParkman, signing out from Broken
Branch.
Take care and have a great day.
Thank you.
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation.
The Mack Parkman Foundation.
Our podcast is focused on theissue of repetitive brain trauma
in the forms of repetitive headimpacts from sports and
repetitive blast exposure forour veterans, and what these
(00:32):
impacts are doing they'rechanging the brains of our kids,
athletes and veterans.
That's resulting in the largestpreventable cause of mental
illness in this country, andthis is why we reach out to an
amazing group of researchers andscientists and players and
athletes and people that havebeen struggling with conditions
for years, in order to bring youthe information, because this
(00:55):
is not taught in any medical,nursing or psychological course
in this country.
Everybody that you meet will beunprepared to talk about this
issue, and you need to protectyour kids.
You need to protect yourself.
So today we have another amazingguest, dr Daphne Denham,
dialing in from Fargo, northDakota.
She's a pioneering physician inhyperbaric medicine and
(01:16):
concussion treatment.
After completing medical schoolat the University of Louisville
and surgical training at theUniversity of Southern Florida,
right here in Tampa ofLouisville and surgical training
at the University of SouthernFlorida right here in Tampa, dr
Denham shifted her focus towound care and hyperbaric
medicine while raising her sixchildren.
Her passion for concussiontreatment began in 2015, when
she witnessed firsthand howhyperbaric oxygen therapy HBOT
(01:38):
could accelerate recovery.
Since then, she has dedicatednearly a decade to refining
protocols and collecting data torevolutionize concussion care,
and in 2018, she partnered withentrepreneur Gary Thelmson to
open Healing with Hyperbarics ofNorth Dakota, expanding access
to these groundbreakingtreatments because, as we're
(01:58):
going to talk about, this is notavailable down the street.
With over 100,000 concussionstreated and patients traveling
from hundreds of miles away, drDenim is not only a leader in
the hyperbaric community, but adriving force in refining
concussion recovery.
Dr Daphne, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, thank you very much.
It's truly a pleasure and, aswhat you are doing, education is
beyond the word of the day.
But we've got to education andawareness.
Get it out there.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yes, ma'am.
So you said I mean you.
So you operate a hyperbariccenter here in Fargo.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
In Fargo and in Northbrook Illinois.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
That's the one I started in 2015.
And we that one is still open,even though I'm in Fargo.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Nice man, very, very interesting, and so you offer, I
guess, hyperbaric.
You know, do you have a hardchamber or a soft chamber, and
can you explain to our audiencewhat the difference is between
them?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So we have in Fargo six Sechrist hard chambers and
in Northbrook we have four hardchambers and I use the example
of someone saying I need painmedicine.
Does pain medicine meanover-the-counter Tylenol or does
(03:28):
pain medicine mean IV morphineand not to get into opioids?
But soft chambers are likegoing to the drugstore and
buying over-the-counter Tylenol.
And the level of therapy thatwe use with the hard chambers is
like requiring a physician anda prescription and much more
(03:55):
concentrated, much moretherapeutic drugs.
During a treatment forconcussions we often raise the
oxygen concentration in theliquid part of blood so not on
red blood cells but in theliquid part of blood by 1,000%.
And why that's important forconcussions and for
(04:20):
subconcussive injuries or theblast effects for veterans etc.
Is that brain cells are likethe elite athletes.
They are consuming much moreoxygen than we moms sitting on
the benches.
But after an injury, be itsub-concussive, full-blown
(04:44):
concussion etc.
A brain cell is benched.
It is not getting the energythat it needs to function at the
elite level that it was.
In addition, it is injured.
So not only is it gettingbaseline enough, it's not
getting more than enough torepair.
(05:06):
So by raising the oxygenconcentration up with hyperbaric
oxygen in the liquid part ofblood that allows the oxygen to
diffuse into the brain cellsbetter, better we are able to
(05:29):
get enough oxygen for thosebrain cells to repair, basically
unbench them and put them backinto the gape.
In addition, we are seeingfewer repeat concussions,
subsequent concussions.
I've been doing this 10 years.
We see a few patients back, butnot at the rates that are
published of subsequentconcussions.
(05:51):
So likely the response ofhyperbaric, of turning off that
brain inflammation that we getturned on with a concussion that
primes the brain for subsequentconcussions and causes so many
different problems leading toCTE.
(06:13):
We are turning thatinflammatory response off.
Best we can tell by theobjective tests we're using.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Wow, and what are the mechanisms by which hyperbaric
in your words, hyperbaric oxygentherapy is helping to heal
those bench brain cells?
What are they doing with thisoxygen?
Because don't they need, likeprotein and other nutrients, to
heal as well?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
The brain basically would survive on just glucose,
which is why everyone who goesto a ketogenic diet, the South
Beach Atkins, would getheadaches Because it takes.
The brain wants glucose.
If you're going to do somethingelse, there's a transition.
So the brain is content withglucose and oxygen.
(07:02):
That simple content withglucose and oxygen that simple.
After an injury and there's anarticle by Dr Christopher Geise
called the neurometaboliccascade of a concussion that I
love and after an injury thereis a huge demand for more energy
for those cells to repair.
Demand for more energy forthose cells to repair.
(07:24):
But he demonstrates in labanimals they've shown a decrease
in blood flow right after aconcussion.
So the simple fact ishyperbaric is hyperoxygenating
the tissue, giving it enoughoxygen to repair.
Hyperbaric also reducesswelling, even mild swelling,
(07:50):
like when you stub your toe.
There is mild swelling of thebrain, maybe not detectable by
studies, but when you hit yourbrain against your skull,
there's a tiny bit of swellingthat pushes against those
precious vessels and decreasesblood flow to the injury, so
decreasing the swelling.
(08:11):
We open those blood vesselsback up and restore blood flow
to what it was before the injuryand inflammatory cells are
turned on different mechanisms,but a low oxygen environment
causes even more inflammationand there are multiple research
(08:34):
studies showing hyperbaricoxygen turns off inflammatory
cells inflammatory cells.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Wow, and we do know that it's the long-term exposure
to repetitive head impacts thatcreates that long-term
inflammatory environment.
That is absolutelycontradictory to brain health
and brain growth.
And the swelling also reducesthose vessels.
So that makes absolute perfectsense.
Wow.
So when you put these people inthose hard caskets there you
(09:09):
know the capsules I keepthinking like Star Trek, right
when, at the end of one of them,when they had all these bodies
in those chambers.
So what's the treatmentprotocol?
I mean, what do you when, you,when, when folks travel to you?
I mean, what do you when you,when folks travel to?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
you are she.
We look at how long ago wasyour concussion, how many
previous concussions have youhad?
Were you still having symptomsbefore you got this concussion
(09:49):
or is this all justsub-concussive hits?
And we have multiple differentprotocols that we start at a
starting point and mytechnicians are incredible
checking in with patients every10 to 20 minutes to make sure
that the protocol that we're onis working and we actually
progress from a 1.5 atmosphere,which is what everyone is using
(10:11):
for post-concussive syndrome,ptsd for the veterans we
actually progress over thecourse of either a single
treatment for acute concussionsor multiple treatments for
post-concussive syndrome, makingsure that we are not causing a
(10:31):
headache.
The way hyperbaric gets rid ofswelling is by vasoconstricting
or tightening the vessels, andthere's already abnormal
tightening of the vessels from aconcussion, so we want to make
sure we're not tightening tooquickly.
But so we started a startingpoint and just keep working out
(10:57):
with each individual.
But it's about an hour for thebrain and ideally with acute
concussions it is two treatmentsa day until they are sustained,
symptom free, more than 12hours out from a treatment and
no symptoms, but full brainactivity back and our average
(11:20):
for acute concussions is onlyfour treatments if we see
patients within the first week.
So we're not talking about ahuge number of treatments.
We're talking about potentiallytwo days.
When we see patients who areinjured the night before,
hopefully by day three or fourafter injury, they're sitting in
(11:43):
homeroom as if they've not hada concussion.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And when you assess them to say, hey, you know
you're back, you know you returnto play protocols, you're able
to go back.
What is that based on?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
So we have used several objective tests.
We've used right eye, we'veused brain scope.
We're looking at neurocatchright now but ironically the
objective test fit with oursubjective assessment, our
(12:31):
subjective assessment.
But we have patients do a braintest.
Not the return to play physicalactivity.
If you look at the five-dayreturn to play or day six, it's
riding an exercise bike.
It's, you know, non-contactdrills For athletes.
That's all physical activity.
We send them to the sportsstore.
Here in Fargo we have Shields.
(12:51):
It's a two-story sporting goodsstore with a Ferris wheel in
the middle of it.
It is circuit overload for thebrain.
But if someone who's had aconcussion is fully treated,
they can walk through Shieldsfor an hour and it's not too
much sensory input.
(13:12):
They don't get a headache,they're not light sensitive.
Or we send them back to school.
I personally think it's medicalmalpractice that we allow
athletes to return to play ifthey are still on accommodations
for school.
If we have accommodations forschool, we are saying the brain
(13:36):
is not functioning as it should,but yet we're letting them go
back to a contact sport.
That should be not allowed.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So explain to me.
I've never heard this term.
Accommodations for sport, Imean for school.
What's that all about?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
When the brain is not functioning correctly.
Too much activity brings onsymptoms.
That's why they wear sunglasses.
They avoid rock concerts.
You know brain injuredindividuals know when enough is
enough and too much is too much.
So schools will often say youcan eat lunch in the library so
(14:27):
you're not in the cafeteria withall the sensory, the noise, the
people, all of the activity.
You can pass before or afternormal passing periods.
If you go down a high schoolhallway during passing periods,
talk about brain circuitoverload.
Everybody's talking runningaround.
(14:50):
So we need to test the brainand make sure the brain is able
to take all of this activity andis functioning basically at
100% before we let athletes backon the field.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So is that, and who makes that assessment?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Different people.
Some schools it's an athletictrainer, some places have a PsyD
, a psychologist approved, someplaces it's a medical, it's a
physician.
But I treated.
When we first opened Fargo Itreated a physician's son four
(15:38):
previous concussions.
Don't worry, I've been clearedto go back to football.
Concussions Don't worry, I'vebeen cleared to go back to
football.
We did a right eye test for himand he failed it miserably and I
said I can let you be our firstconcussion for the season, or I
can sleep better by treatingyou now and then letting you
play with a healthier brain.
(15:59):
And sure enough, his right eyescore went back up into the
normal range.
He came in laughing after hisfourth treatment and he said
even my dad noticed I'm better,all of my friends have noticed
I'm better and he played thewhole football season without a
concussion.
And that was five years ago.
(16:21):
I haven't seen him since for atreatment.
He's had no further injuriesbut he's still been playing
football.
They're not always in anorganized sport.
(16:42):
I used to laugh and say I putmy sons in organized sports so
they wouldn't do more damage totheir brains and what they could
find on their own.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, because they're always falling out of trees and
whatever.
Right, yeah, but you can't takethat out.
But we can take the RHI down orout of the sport by promoting
more.
I mean, trust me, you're alwaysgoing to be in business.
I wish not.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Business will go down .
Speaker 1 (17:14):
No, I'm just talking.
You know the kids that get in.
I mean, you know therollerblades and all this other
stuff skateboards they're alwaysgoing to be finding you.
So how did you get in all thisother stuff skateboards they're
always going to be finding you.
And so how did how did you getin all this?
I mean you, you're, you knowyou.
You went to surgery, surgicaltraining, right, I mean you were
a doctor, doctor and now thisis your life.
(17:35):
So how did you make thattransition?
Because, I mean, obviously it'syour passion.
This is amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
After my fourth child I took a professional time out.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I got tired of trying to be a boy With school or with
kids, with kids.
I had two more Professional mom, right, I mean, that's the way
my wife would say it.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I was a secret doctor and stay-at-home mom and,
honestly, my boards were comingup and I needed to be hospital
affiliated.
I was not about to lose mysurgery boards.
So I started working in a woundand hyperbaric center.
We had a patient with frostbite.
Her toes were purple and dyingand dying.
(18:29):
We did a hyperbaric treatmentand her toes were pink and
viable and with four or fivetreatments, no problems.
She saved all 10 toes.
Wow.
And then, two or three weekendslater, I'm sitting in a
volleyball tournament and ifyou've ever been to volleyball
tournaments they have about 10courts all lined up and all of
(18:50):
these balls are flying.
And one of my daughter'steammates had had multiple
concussions.
She just tossed her head backto get into position to play.
Her head back to get intoposition to play and she just
(19:10):
the head toss injured herinflamed brain enough.
She excused herself and had toleave.
And I'm sitting there thinkingif we can save purple toes, what
can we do for the break?
So a few years later, thehospitals wouldn't work with me.
I had to open my own center and,as fate would have it, my
daughter had a concussion and,like all working parents, I left
(19:33):
her with the babysitter, I wentto work.
I called home at lunch and shesaid I feel terrible.
I feel terrible.
She came in curled up in afetal position, not moving at
all, and we did a treatmentwhich is now the basis of our
acute concussion protocol.
And she rolls over and she saysokay, mom, how much longer do I
(20:00):
have to be in here?
And I thought why do we wait Ifwe can make this much of a
(20:23):
difference?
Why let the brain see what it'sgoing to do and the number of
medical people who have saidwell, 90% of concussions are
better in 10 days.
But what's better?
There was a survey of almost15,000 high school athletes and
almost 40% who had had a historyof one or more concussions
admitted to feelings ofhopelessness and depression.
So if we're 90% better in 10days, how is it that 40% of
(20:51):
patients with a history of aconcussion are still having
issues?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Man, yeah, I mean, there's obviously a complete
lack or gap in knowledge betweeneven just concussions and
concussion treatment.
I didn't even know you could doa post-concussion syndrome test
.
Right that you can literallykeep testing your kid, because
when the doctor says two weeksat home and then clears them,
(21:21):
well, you're trusting yourdoctor, right, You're, you know?
You don't know but they don'tknow, and that's the yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So I have been fortunate to be able to speak to
the North Dakota High SchoolAthletic Association meeting and
I tell the coaches and athletictrainers every year that the
symptoms for post-concussionsyndrome and you can have that
(21:50):
from a concussion or fromsub-concussive events and not
really know one specific hit,but I call it the cranky
teenager list and we can dismissevery one of the symptoms.
They're more tired than usual,they're irritable, they're more
(22:11):
emotional, they get headaches,they're more sad than usual,
they're nervous, less emotional.
I mean you can excuse awayevery one of the symptoms as
well.
Of course he is.
He's playing football andpractice is hard and he's got a
(22:34):
test coming up and he wants toask this girl out.
And you start listing excuses.
But when you take them alltogether, all of a sudden you
recognize why am I checkingpositive for more than half of
the symptoms?
So if you have a crankyteenager, take a step back and
(22:59):
make sure it's not from a headinjury.
And we need objective screeningin pediatrician offices, every
psychiatrist's office, beforethey put them on a medication,
make sure it's not an underlyinghead injury, because the
(23:21):
underlying head injury kids donot respond to the medications
like true organic depressions,because they have a brain injury
it's an injured brain that itdoesn't matter how many
serotonin uptake inhibitors youthrow at them if
their brain cells can't makeserotonin because they're not
(23:44):
getting enough oxygen and theinflammation is taking the
oxygen away.
You just keep upping that drugand the kids become more
nauseous.
And I know too much about thatpathway and I can't tell you the
number of kids I've seen overthe years that when they start
(24:05):
getting better I'll ask them howthey are and they kind of get
close to me and whisper I was ina deep dark hole.
I never want to go back there.
No one understands what I wasgoing through and I'm so glad to
be past it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know, folks, this is what I'd like you to listen
to, because my son is not herebecause of what Dr Denham just
said.
Everything that, mac, you know,displayed apathy.
You know, we liked his roomdark, we sleeping late.
You know, we literally saidexactly that he's playing
(24:46):
football, he's growing up, he'suh, he's getting ready to join
the army.
We could, we literallyexplained away all these issues
and we had, you know, and andour ignorance, and I am certain
that what Dr Daphne's talkingabout could have absolutely
(25:07):
helped my son, because thesechildren do not tell us they're
struggling, they love us.
And my son's last words to oneof his best friends, when he
told him he was struggling, notwith suicidal ideation, just he
didn't want to play football, hewas tired, was I don't want to
disappoint or let anybody down.
And our children love us to thepoint where they will not tell
(25:29):
us.
And we have to be informed thatthis cranky teenager system
which is an amazing way to saythis is absolutely could be the
result of contact sports.
Contact sports, but unless youknow that there is a correlation
between long-term exposure, rhior multiple concussions that
(25:52):
have not healed, and thiscrankiness, guess what?
Your kid is going to getdrugged.
They're going to go see apsychiatrist because they are
cranky and they are depressed orwhatever, and they're going to
feed them medications and,because you do not know, they're
going to keep playing thesesports and then their brains are
going to continue to degrade,like our sons, and spiral until
they do something horrible.
And this is why we exist.
(26:14):
Daphne and Bruce are here topass this information on,
because you do not know.
And now you have a betterchance of making these decisions
or at least you know, beingaware that your child is not
struggling because of you know,just depression.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So, bruce, my daughter, who works in the Fargo
Clinic, Menly, started aconcussion awareness program
program and we are trying tomake sure that coaches, athletic
(26:52):
trainers, but also all of yourfellow teammates are aware of
looking out for each other andwhen a teammate seems to have
struggles or shares somethinglike that, we have had patients
come in and say I don't know whyI'm here, but my teammates told
me I should come and then we'lltreat them and they'll come out
(27:16):
and they'll say oh wow, theywere right, I wasn't acting like
myself.
It's much more than justparents.
It's got to be education acrossthe board.
We need to do a better job ofeducating our students in health
class.
We should have a concussionawareness day every year.
(27:39):
Starting second grade up.
We teach health, we teach dietand exercise, how to splint a
broken arm.
Why are we not teaching how tolook out for and recognize brain
injuries and brain injured?
(28:02):
Individuals do not always knowthat they're injured.
I've had countless patientsthat you know.
A football player lostconsciousness on the field,
ambulance, hospital, ct, you'vegot a concussion.
Fortunately his pediatricianknew me and said go see Denim.
(28:25):
So Saturday after a Fridaynight football game, he comes in
.
I don't know why I'm here, I'mOK, I'm OK, I'm OK.
And then, looking back, he justkept saying I'm OK.
After his treatment he stood upand he was about six, two and I
looked up at him and he saiddude, I was totally messed up.
(28:48):
An injured brain, can you know?
A brain can say you broke yourarm, it hurts, you need to go
see somebody.
An injured brain that messagedoesn't always get through.
And the same with kidsreturning to play.
Everybody says, oh, they liebecause they want to get back to
playing.
Yes, they want to get back toplaying, but they don't know
(29:12):
that they're lying.
We've got to incorporateobjective tasks and better
education and education toathletes that you know, if you
feel a little off, let's testyou.
And some have said I don't wantto admit to it because they'll
just put me in a dark room.
If we can also get the messageout, no, we can treat you and
(29:37):
within two days, three days,certainly less than a week,
we're going to get you back onthe field playing way better
than you would be playingconcussed.
There's an enormous amount ofeducation and awareness that we
need to do at multiple levels.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Multiple levels.
I mean, yeah, it's, I mean it'sall the way from, and I think
the kids are.
That's a very powerful message,because these children are now
starting to get it.
I mean, they don't have thereligious fervor all the way
from, and I think the kids are.
That's a very powerful message,because these children are now
starting to get it.
I mean, they don't have thereligious fervor for sports that
you know their parents have,you know, for football or
whatever sport that you're in.
Uh, they're, they're, they.
(30:16):
They value their brain, sothey're they're more willing to
listen now to you know, and andthey take care of each other.
So I think you know, startingthat is uh, is um, you know is
is important.
How do you, um impart thatknowledge?
Is it like a seminar?
Do you get them in the gym?
Or you know, how do you?
How do you give them thatawareness training?
(30:37):
Cause, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
We have worked out with a few teams and
unfortunately some hospitalsystems try to block us because
they pay for the athletictrainer and there's so much
politics in medicine.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
but we're not going to waste time on that Wait, they
tried to block you from givingconcussion.
What was their motive?
Why would they not want you tospeak on?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
They don't want the kids to know they can be treated
with hyperbaric.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Oh, because they don't provide it.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Don't even, let's not go there.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
No, we need to.
I mean only because you knowpeople need to be aware that we
are constantly talking to peoplelike you that have modalities
from, you know,photobiomodulation, tms, hbot,
vagus, nerve stimulation,psychedelic therapies that are
improving lives, and we're onthis continuous, wide-ranging
battlefront to make thesemodalities available to people
(31:38):
that need them because, well,they work.
I'm sorry, you know, it's not apill that you take for the rest
of your life.
This stuff works, whether youget them back on the field, or
you get them back in the policecar, or you get them back on the
job.
These things work.
So that is, yeah, it'sabsolutely one of the things we
need to dial into, because it'sthe biggest impediment to
(32:01):
adequate care for these injuriesin this country, because all
you're going to get are drugsand therapy and, I'm sorry, they
don't fix a damaged brain, youknow there is huge money in
concussions not being healed oh.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Medicine will.
Even physicians that I haveshared my objective data with
have told patients of mine.
You don't need to keep goingfor hyperbaric.
It doesn't work, even afterseeing objective data and we're
hoping that will be publishedsometime 2025.
(32:45):
And and there will be somephysicians that get
signature-required registeredmail.
A copy of my article.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Ah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Because the game is over.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, no, I mean, and then you got.
You know, we just interviewedJoe Duterte with his big HBOT
study down in Florida too,looking at that gold standard.
It's all coming to a forefronthere.
You know where we have to startlooking at alternatives and
cheaper.
I mean, you know what do youcharge for a hyperbaric Like?
So you know you get a patient.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
You know what do you charge to go in $225 in Fargo
because our oxygen costs are sohigh.
But we're meeting again withthe oxygen supplier to work on
that.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And that's per treatment, that's for one
treatment, and they could needwhatever they need until they
get it done.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
But we try to have packages of five, packages of 10
, a payment plan.
Most patient families wouldprobably save money by doing
acute concussion treatments upfront than what they end up
paying in co-pays for all of thephysical therapy, occupational
(34:02):
therapy, the MRI, the visiontherapy, the vestibular therapy,
not to mention how behind thestudent gets in school and how
much time off of work parentstake.
We're slowly collecting thatdata as well to try to show
(34:23):
private insurance companies itwould be cheaper to take a more
aggressive treat, a concussionapproach.
And especially if we can showthat we can prevent concussions
by preventing the subsequentconcussions.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I mean now going to that a little bit how
do you prevent futureconcussions?
I mean, if a kid's going to goout there and hit his head on a
football field or something, Imean going to go out there and
hit his head on a football fieldor something.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I mean.
What we find with subsequentconcussions is it takes less of
a hit and they end up havingmore symptoms, and what the
animal models show is that braininflammation that we've talked
about keeps the brain crying, soit's easier to injure the next
(35:26):
time, as if it has not beenconcussed.
Then they can go back out andnot have more subsequent
concussions.
We often see someone had aconcussion, then two years later
they had another one, then ayear later and then six months
later.
The interval shrink.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I just don't want parents to think that, you know,
by going to HBOT training youcan play sports and they may be
made safe, because when it comesto RHI, you just cannot avoid
the damage that's going to occurfrom long-term exposure.
We are talking about sportsthat are being played.
I mean we can't stop that rightnow.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Okay, but we screened a football team and five of the
players really performed poorlyin our screening, so we gave
them each 10 treatments andtheir performance on the
screening test went back up intothe normal range okay one of
(36:30):
the things we should be doingfor contact sports is screening
at the beginning of the seasonand at the end of the season, so
we catch everyone who haschanges, whether it's a
concussion they didn't report oran accumulation of
(36:51):
subconcussive events.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
So this is not.
I mean I know there's some kindof like the impact test is out
there, but even that there's notyou know well, I mean it's not.
Well.
Some people say it's not youknow.
You can just you know you knowlike fake the test out.
The other part is is that nowhospitals or they make so little
money they don't even offer itanymore because they have no
(37:15):
monetary incentive.
So that those well, so what doyou use for an assessment?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
we have used the right eye tool, which examines
how both eyes are able to trackthe same cursor on a screen and
the machine picks up how eacheye does it.
Wow, okay, and with concussions, the brain eye relay system is
(37:43):
not always working.
There's another test called eyebox, where they just look and
watch a video clip and themachine tracks how their eyes
are participating watching thevideo and if the eyes basically
are in sync, because oftenthey're not.
(38:05):
We have also used BrainScope,which the NFL and Department of
Defense helped develop, which islittle stickers with a headset.
It's EEG based, so we'relooking for abnormal brain waves
.
There's the QEEG.
There are multiple objectivetests.
(38:30):
Impact is supposed to beobjective, but if you listen to
college kids, they'll tell eachother when you know the answer.
Count to three before youanswer, because they know
they're slowed down with aconcussion.
So we're looking for tests thatcollege students can't outsmart
(38:51):
.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, and that's the big problem with a lot of
baseline tests Plus, you know weonly give them when the kids
have a concussion and, to yourpoint, we should be testing at
the beginning and at the end ofeach year.
And I think for parents outthere, there's something you
should demand your high schoolsdo and I think after our son
left, they started doing thatand they also reduced contact by
60%.
(39:13):
We're seeing this.
You know there are trends rightnow that are very favorable,
both towards reducing our HI and, at the same time, you know,
looking at alternativemodalities, like, you know, hbot
to, you know to improve, youknow brain health and recovery.
So you know brain health andrecovery.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
So you know, that's that.
That's all amazing, but we'vegot to educate the athletes, the
coaches, the trainers, thepediatricians to think brain
injury before they pull out theprescription pad.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I absolutely.
If they and that's I mean we.
You know, we have the traumaticencephalopathy syndrome
protocols that were approved byNINDS in 2019, never validated.
Four simple questions.
You can put them in anyassessment toolkit and at least
have an indication, but withoutthe education you point, that's
(40:06):
true.
I mean, shouldn't there be somekind of CME program out there?
I mean it's not hard to saylook, you check the heart, you
check the lungs, you tap them onthe knee.
Can you please ask them somequestions about their brain,
because out of all of this, itis the most important heart.
I mean, you have a heart and abrain right.
(40:27):
Everything else all right, youcan live without, but you cannot
function in life without abrain, you know, and even a
heart, you can keep going.
You can be a ding-dong.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I was going to say as a general surgeon.
We used to have patients on theECMO machine and the LVAD, so
hearts are temporarilyreplaceable.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
But you ain't replacing.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
So, yeah, it's just.
Yeah, I'm hoping that over time, you know, we get, you know,
insurance coverage.
We're putting it, we're pushingfor insurance to be covering
these things because in the end,to your point, it saves money.
It's if we can get these kidstreated, then it saves money.
Product in terms ofproductivity in terms of, you
know, life in terms ofproductivity in terms of life in
terms of medical costs.
(41:13):
I mean gosh, I mean thisdoesn't take a lot of brain size
.
So my question to you is whyisn't H5 widely accepted when we
have all this evidence that ithelps?
That's what we're looking for.
We're just saying just do stuffthat helps these kids in their
brains, not drugs.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
For many physicians that I've run into, I call it
the arrogance of ignorance.
They know nothing about it, sothey arrogantly say it doesn't
work.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
That's true.
I challenged the top concussionexpert for Chad to uh in Canada
on the issue of subcursivetrauma and how that affects
return to play and he's like I'mnot really educated in that
topic.
I'm like, really, you're thetop concussion doc out there,
you're writing the protocols andyou have no idea what
subcursive trauma is.
Come on, dude.
But you know it's yeah, I can,I can see that.
(42:08):
But you know it's yeah, I can,I can see that.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
But the return to play that the Canadian hockey
team is actually responsible fordeveloping.
If you pull it out, google it,pull it out.
It is physical health related,do you?
Speaker 1 (42:29):
get symptoms.
Yeah, they want you back up.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
We need brain health return to play.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Can you go back to school?
Can you be in a crowded, loudroom?
Can you go to a restaurant,read the menu while dishes are
clanging everywhere and ordersomething?
No, flip out.
Can you read a paragraph, keepboth of your eyes on the same
(43:07):
word and remember what you read?
Wow, if we're going to say thebrain has recovered.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
please test the brain Right.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
It makes sense to me.
I mean, you put it in English.
You know.
No wonder doctors don't likethis stuff.
Man, you're not making it fancyenough.
No, I mean it's just yeah.
I mean we've definitely got toget the word out and it's so
important and this is absolutelyone of the frontiers.
So tell us a little bit more aswe close out.
Where can people find you forinformation?
Do you have a website?
(43:39):
Do you have any literature?
Are you going to open upanother clinic?
What's Dr Daphne going to do?
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I would love to teach our protocols to other clinics
and make sure that otherhyperbaric technicians will
follow checking on patients andthat we do more other types of
objective testing so that we can.
(44:08):
You know, you want right eyedata.
You want brain scope datahere's data using neurocatch
here's.
What more data do you want toshow that we're actually truly
treating concussions instead ofmedicating?
And I want to see programs putinto schools, put into
(44:31):
psychiatric training and, youknow, really educate across the
board.
As I said, teachers, athletictrainers, individual athletes,
parents, you know, makeeverybody aware.
Watch out for the crankyteenager it may not just be.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I'm borrowing that one.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
No, because that was my son look it up, it's the
river mead post-concussionsyndrome scale that we have
renamed the cranky teenager list, and every one of us has a
tanky teenager at one time oranother well, I've had six oh
(45:17):
man, my youngest is over 18, sooh, gosh, man I, it is
heartbreaking to know that.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
You know, with a little bit of help, a little bit
of you know, my son talkingmore or or or me, just you know,
just understand that this couldhave been an issue.
I mean, of course, we wouldn'tbe having this conversation
because I'd be sitting with himdrinking beer, just keeping him
on this face of this earth,cause that's all I.
All I want to do is just bewith my boy.
(45:44):
But, uh, you know, this is thisis what's so important and this
is what people need to be awareof, that it is something that
helps that it is out there.
You can find hyperbaric uhtreatment centers around this
country.
It's not just in fargo, northcarolina, north north dakota.
Take a look, um, dr dafty.
Thank you, so you know, keepgoing, keep going healing with
(46:06):
hyperbarics is our website.
Okay, healing with Hyperbarics.
We'll put that.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
And it's the name of our clinics.
But I'm not pushing my clinic.
I want education, awareness andtreatment.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Well, ma'am, you are a very, very generous woman and
I can feel the presence of theLord with you, and I so thank
you for your dedication to ourchildren yourself, for service
to them and for coming on thisshow and making us aware of how
important it is to think outsidethe box.
You hear that medical andpharma guys Okay, and that we
can help these kids and we can,you know, make sports safer and
(46:47):
we can protect them.
We should be doing that.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I cannot thank you enough.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Thank you, and it's truly an honor.
No problem.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Nope, and my final pitch at all Remember we've got
a free book online right here.
Go get it on the website.
Download it, give it to yourmom, give it to you.
If you're a grandparent, giveit to your grandkids.
You know, help us spread theword.
We've got the Veterans TownHall on March 28th this might be
out there after that and oursecond annual conference on
(47:20):
repetitive brain trauma, hostedhere in Tampa September 3rd and
4th.
Hope to see you all there.
It's going to be a great time.
We've got a lot of peoplecoming back from last year and
then 7026, dc.
Thank you so much for listeningto Dr Denham.
I really appreciate yourattention to the podcast.
Like us, spread us around.
Tell people that we give a dangabout our children and this
(47:42):
ends now.
This whole exposing our kids topain and suffering and mental
anguish ends right now.
We're going to do it.
The legislation will be on ourwebsite for you to take a look
at.
Please support it.
Write your congressman andwe'll keep things moving.
Thank you so much, bruceParkman, signing out from Broken
Branch.
Take care and have a great day.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com