May 5, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode of Broken Brains, host Bruce Parkman is joined by clinical psychologist and sleep expert Dr. Leah Kaylor to explore the hidden links between repetitive brain trauma, sleep, and mental health—especially in veterans and athletes. Dr. Kaylor unpacks the overlooked dangers of sub-concussive impacts, the neurological toll of poor sleep, and how trauma affects memory and cognition over time.
Together, they discuss evidence-based, alternative therapies such as EMDR and brain spotting, as well as the vital role sleep plays in detoxifying the brain and restoring emotional balance. Dr. Kaylor also breaks down sleep architecture and offers practical strategies for improving sleep quality—ranging from behavioral changes to optimized routines.
This conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in brain health, trauma recovery, and unlocking better mental performance through sleep.
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
02:48 The Importance of Sleep in Mental Health
05:37 Understanding Sub concussive Trauma
08:23 Balancing Pharmaceuticals and Therapy
12:29 Individualized Approaches to Trauma
15:47 Exploring Emerging Therapies
16:34 The Power of EMDR Therapy
32:28 Understanding Memory Errors and Trauma
39:47 The Importance of Sleep
52:43 Improving Sleep Health and Lifestyle Changes
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-kaylor-ph-d-mp-rxp-a75497222/
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrLeahKaylor
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Website: https://www.drleahkaylor.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation, where welook at the issue of repetitive
brain trauma, from repetitivehead impacts in contact sports
to repetitive blast exposure inour veteran Foundation, where we
look at the issue of repetitivebrain trauma, from repetitive
ed impacts in contact sports torepetitive blast exposure in our
veteran population and whatthese two conditions are doing
to the brains of our athletes,children and our veterans,
(00:36):
resulting in the largestpreventable cause of mental
illness in this country.
We reach out to researchers,experts, authors, patients,
players to bring you a360-degree perspective on this
issue, because it's not trainedin any medical, nursing or
psychological courses.
So you have to be informed, youhave to know when you or
(01:00):
somebody you love has beenimpacted or you can prevent them
from being impacted with thisknowledge.
Today we want to welcomeanother wonderful case, thanks
to our producer, denny Caballero, over there in the background
there.
Dr Lea Kayla is a licensedclinical and prescribing
psychologist, trauma specialistand nationally recognized sleep
(01:20):
expert, committed to supportingthe mental health and resilience
of first responders and lawenforcement professionals.
What a mission.
She has a unique background inforensic psychology, trauma
treatment and sleep science,integrating both therapy and
medication management into herpractice, and we're going to
talk about both these key,critical components of sleep
(01:43):
therapy.
She currently serves as theclinical psychologist for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation,where she provides trauma
therapy, psychologicaldebriefings and sleep
optimization strategies foragents exposed to high-risk
operations which we can assumealmost all of them are, and
that's part of the pain thatthey go through, and I'm so glad
that they're helping herEducation and credentials she's
(02:05):
got a PhD in clinical psychology, a master's in forensic mental
health counseling, apostdoctoral MS in clinical
psychopharmacology and certifiedin EMDR Very, very important
emergency area of therapy andbrain spotting and, as we
noticed, she's the FBI'sdesignated sleep expert.
She's delivered trauma therapyand psychology briefings for
(02:26):
agents that have evolved in alitany of events that we all
know that they go through, andshe's provided residency at the
Memphis VA Medical Center.
She's a sought-after speakerand we got her on our show, man,
thanks to Denny, and we are sothankful that you're on here,
leah, because sleep is socritical to our mental health,
(02:46):
it's so critical to our balance,and yet we never realize how
important it is until it's toolate.
So you know, welcome to theshow and tell us please.
I mean, aside from this amazingresume, how did you get
involved in sleep?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Thank you for having me Super excited to be here.
Okay, so I keep getting thisquestion and I wish I could go
back in time and actually tellyou, because I worked at the
sleep clinic at the Memphis VAMedical Center when I was on my
residency year.
And while you're on yourresidency year, you have to
(03:22):
rotate through various differentrotations, and whenever you're
on your residency year, you haveto rotate through various
different rotations.
And whenever you're looking atwhich residency you want to go
to, normally they have ones thatare very exciting, very
attractive, like the one thatyou're like.
Yes, I have to get this one.
And so when I went to theMemphis VA Medical Center, there
were several that I reallywanted and I got them, and I
can't remember if sleep was oneof them or not.
(03:42):
We all have to go into a room,all of the interns and all of
the postdocs, and everyone hasto come out relatively happy.
But there has to be somecompromises, and I got the few
rotations that I wanted, whichwere all forensically oriented,
and then I got a rotation on thesleep clinic, and so I wish I
could go back in time andremember if that was a
(04:05):
compromise or one of them that Iactually wanted.
But I couldn't be more gratefulthat I ended up with a sleep
rotation, because I certainlydid not realize how important
sleep was.
I have only more recentlybecome more of a sleep expert
personally and being able toachieve really good sleep myself
(04:27):
, but before I worked at thesleep rotation, my goodness, my
sleep was kind of all over theplace too.
So it was a learning experience,not only for me personally, but
just to get a chance to workwith our veterans to really
understand the sleep issues thatthey're having, to get an
understanding of what's going onin the brain, what's going on
(04:48):
in the sleep cycles, why arethese so important, and then
trying to educate folks throughvarious different sleep hygiene
classes.
A huge issue that we have withinour veteran population and in
general too, is obstructivesleep apnea, which, when it's
untreated, watch out.
That's a huge problem.
So helping people who have hadsome type of trauma or some type
(05:10):
of issue, who don't want towear their sleep apnea mask
which now we're getting more andmore advances, so it's not as
much of a problem but stillhelping people with that I would
do treatment for insomnia,treatment for nightmares.
So lots and lots of differentthings that I learned when I was
in the sleep rotation, and so Icouldn't be more grateful to
have had that education and thenrealized that there are so many
(05:34):
people who are having issueswith sleep and just being able
to give that education that'swhat I've kind of decided is my
passion and it's, I think so,incredibly important.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I mean, is this like an occupational field?
I mean I've never heard of a.
I mean, when you go to thedoctor and they'll prescribe,
say I'm not sleeping, they'llgive you Ambien right, all right
.
But to understand themechanisms of sleep and how
important it is, I mean itsounds like it's a study all
into itself.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh, absolutely.
I think nowadays you can have ajob in whatever it is you want
to have a job in, but my generaltitle is a clinical
psychologist and then I have theability to prescribe
medications with my postdoctoralmaster's degree in clinical
psychopharmacology.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So while sleep and trauma, as you talked about in
my bio, are where my specialtylies.
Yeah, my title is apsychologist.
They're usually victims of alot of subcustodial trauma.
(06:43):
Many first responders type Apersonalities, male and female
play a lot of competitive sportsbefore the evening Join our
first responder community, ourveteran community, and that's
(07:05):
just another area.
Deal with these folks from apsychological perspective.
Are you finding or do you evenask them about the issue of
subconcussive trauma if theyplay contact sports, or have
they been exposed to repetitiveblast explosions or any
explosions or anything like that?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I would say in my work at the VA which I'm no
longer there that I would bemuch more concerned about blasts
and ask questions regardingthat topic.
But that's a good question.
With regard to the folks that Isee nowadays, those particular
clients, it's not within mystandard realm of questions to
ask about a repeated braininjury unless there's something
(07:39):
that I know of or unlesssomething comes out that there's
a question about that, wherethey're behaving in some way or
their speech.
There's something about it thatI'm like hey, I need to be
asking about a brain injury.
So it's not something that Iwould routinely ask about.
But that's a great question andit it is very, very important,
because whenever someone doeshave a brain injury, things can
(08:01):
go off the rails and it impactslots and lots of different
things, as you know.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
No, absolutely, and we're finding that out that
because the correlation betweenmental illness and brain damage
doesn't lead to these types ofquestions, then you know you get
your traditional approach by.
You know a lot of the VA.
They treat the symptoms right.
You're obviously mentallyyou're struggling and you're
treating the symptoms, which isyou know, and let's talk about
(08:27):
that a little bit.
I mean, obviously you knowyou're here to help the force
and what is your?
You know what is your approachthere.
I mean, there's a lot of waysto use pharmaceuticals to, you
know, help with mental health,and then we all know that
sometimes that's not the bestapproach, given some of the side
effects.
But there's other modalitiesout there.
(08:49):
How do you balance the use ofpharmaceutical drugs in your
approach to mental illness withyour patients?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I love this question, and so I will be fully
transparent with you that I'veonly been a prescriber for about
six months.
I just got my postdoctoraldegree in clinical
psychopharmacology not that longago, so I am a baby prescriber,
if you will.
But the beautiful thing aboutthat is I am a psychologist
first and I'm a prescribersecond, and so my foundation,
(09:21):
the way that I was trained, theway that I've been practicing
for all these years as apsychologist, is through
behavioral interventions, and Ivery strongly stand by that.
I think that anybody else thatyou'll find who is a prescribing
psychologist because we'regetting stronger in the ranks,
there's more and more of us thatwe strongly stand by behavioral
interventions first, behavioralinterventions first, and then
(09:47):
if it seems like pharmaceuticalinterventions are a good option,
then we will move to that,because there's a lot of
evidence that when you pairtherapy and medication, that you
do get this very beautifulsynergistic effect, and so we
certainly want that.
But also, pharmaceuticals arenot without side effects, and
something else that youmentioned that's really
important is treating thesymptoms, and this is something
(10:09):
that, as I was in mypharmacology program, I often
heard that and I'm like well,what's the deal?
You know somebody who is reallypopular in my field.
His name is Steven Stahl.
He's like if you want to learnanything about prescribing, you
watch his videos and you buy hisbook.
And he's just for an example,he says, well, I've never
treated schizophrenia.
And his students are like, well, what do you mean?
(10:31):
And he said, no, I treat thesymptoms.
And that is his whole mindset.
And the way that he talks aboutprescribing and it's very much
the way that we're taught now isabout treating the symptoms and
managing that.
The way that we're taught nowis about treating the symptoms
and managing that.
So whenever you ask me aboutsomeone coming in and wanting to
work with me, what I thinkabout is a very individualized
(10:51):
approach.
What is going on with thisindividual?
Chances are, just because ofthe realm in which I work in,
there's going to be trauma.
Whether it's the work that I doat the Bureau, whether it's the
work that I had done at the VA,there's very likely going to be
trauma.
That's something that I'm justa magnet for.
(11:13):
And then also, there's usuallyyeah, like it or not, I'm a
magnet for that.
One thing that I do want tomention is, yes, I am employed
by the FBI, so everything thatI'm saying here are my own
thoughts, feelings, beliefs,opinions, biases, and I do not
reflect the beliefs of the FBI.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I think we call that a disclaimer Good job.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I need to give you a disclaimer yeah.
So what I like to do is just geta very individualized
understanding of what's going onwith the individual, and
oftentimes trauma goes hand inhand with sleep.
It's kind of like this veryugly cycle of okay, I've
experienced something traumatic,chances are, I'm not dealing
(11:54):
with it, and then that's showingup in poor sleep or nightmares,
and then, when you're notgetting good sleep, then that
increases our chances of justworse mental health outcomes,
worse mood, worse irritability,and so it's just kind of this
really ugly cycle.
So I'm going to I'm veryverbose, I'm going to stop there
, because I think that answersyour question.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
That's why you're here.
Nobody needs to hear me talk.
They already know what I thinkabout all this stuff.
You know I mean on the issue ofrepetitive brain trauma, it's
your approach.
That's very, very excitingbecause you are taking that
individualistic approach.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
But when you so, when you deal with, when you're
dealing as a psychologist andyou're dealing with trauma, and
the symptoms of course manifestthemselves and they can be
treated with drugs.
But do you ever look from acausal perspective on the
psychology, apart from, like youknow, there could be an event
(12:51):
in childhood?
You know the psychological part, but you know the biological
origin.
You know ever worked with acombination of therapy, drugs
and HBOT or transcranialmagnetic stimulation or anything
(13:14):
like that, to stimulate thebrain and improve brain health?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So one thing I'll say is, because I'm at the Bureau
and my services are free,because I'm just an employee, a
lot of people love free.
That's so exciting.
But also because of that andbecause all of my clients are
FBI employees, that we have alot of limitations as far as
what it is that we can do.
(13:40):
And so, yeah, well, I wouldlove.
Like you know, there's so manyexciting things, there's lots of
interesting things coming outon the market.
One of the things that I am kindof interested in is psychedelic
assisted therapy, and thatwould certainly be a no-no
within the FBI.
Like I'm, I wouldn't be allowedto do anything like that.
So an example might be sometype of ketamine assisted
(14:03):
therapy where, yeah, wheresomeone so if you're not
familiar with that, any anybodyhere listening.
That would be where we mightgive some type of psychedelic,
and a good example would beketamine, and then we would go
in and do therapy.
That is not something that I'mallowed to do.
I don't know that we'll ever seesomething like that within the
FBI, but there are people outthere in the community who do do
(14:24):
that ever see something likethat within the FBI, but there
are people out there in thecommunity who do do that.
So, and also as I think thatthe FBI means super well and I
think that there are just a lotof parameters around what I can
do and what employees can do,just because we want to keep our
workforce safe and we alsothere's a lot of very strict
policies around specificmedications and things that are
(14:46):
not well regulated.
So unfortunately, I don't havethe ability to partner with
people out in the community whodo have access to some of these
other cutting edge or veryinteresting upcoming and
emerging therapies.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Well, that's my job.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I wish I did.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
I'm here to tell you that you know, ketamine-assisted
therapy, the psychedelics arehaving enormous and positive
effects with our veteranpopulation.
Yes, and we would like to seethe retired Bureau population.
I have friends at the Bureauand I understand the handcuffs
that we all must operate when wework for.
Uncle Sam, right, it's the wayit is, you know.
(15:24):
But I think you're right andit's exciting to hear that that
you're open to the possibilityof those becoming more available
, Because I mean, FDA ketamineis FDA approved?
It is, it's all about.
Hey, it's on my record and forthe record, it's not really,
it's not a, it's not arecreational experience.
(15:45):
Let me tell you I haven't doneit myself.
I mean, it's challenging, it'straumatic, it's also very, very
healing.
Oh yeah, it's from a closureperspective, it's wonderful.
So hopefully we'll get theresomeday.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I sure hope so.
Yeah, I mean the two therapiesthat you mentioned when you were
reading my bio, that I'mcertified in and that I use
almost every single time someonewalks in my door, is EMDR,
which is eye movement,desensitization and reprocessing
, and the other is brainspotting, and I think that this
is newer, more cutting edge.
A lot of people don't knowabout it even though it has been
(16:24):
around for a while, and one ofmy mentors within the brain
spotting community she doespsychedelic assisted brain
spotting, and so I think thatthere's just so much out there
that needs to be explored thatcan be highly impactful for
clients.
But yes, there are just,unfortunately, some restraints.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, let's talk about EMDR, because most people
think about therapy as beingtherapy.
You know I'm going to paysomebody $150 an hour to do
something I already know, butI'm going to get a good nap
sitting on your couch, so.
But we know that therapy can bepowerful and very, very
successful.
So talk to us about EMDR.
(17:05):
What does that entail and whatare some of the more positive
results that you're getting vicetraditional therapy methods?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Absolutely so.
When I was trained as apsychologist, I was trained in
more talk therapy modalities fortrauma, because I knew I wanted
to be a trauma psychologist andI thought I don't know that, I
love this.
And then I got to the Bureauand then I realized these law
enforcement guys aren't thatinterested in talking about
(17:38):
their feelings.
I'm going to have to come upwith some other methods, and
it's the same thing at the VAtoo.
There's a lot of stigma aroundmental health and what it is
that you have experienced ingoing into and talking to
someone about that, and so Ineeded to figure out another way
to be able to do my job withinthe Bureau, and that's where I
came across EMDR.
(17:58):
So I was very excited to becometrained and then to continue to
become certified, and it hasbeen, like I mentioned, either
EMDR or brain spotting are thetwo most common modalities that
I bring out whenever someonecomes in my door and wants to do
therapy.
So, yes, I do think thatthere's a lot of misconceptions
and the media doesn't help us atall whenever it comes to
(18:20):
thinking about therapy.
I have a couch behind me forthose who are just listening and
they can't see, and it's veryfunny, right?
It is this stigma, this clicheof come and lay down on my couch
and tell me about yourchildhood, and it doesn't have
to be that way at all.
In fact, emdr I wouldcategorize as a relatively quiet
(18:41):
or a silent therapy, and ifyou're not familiar with brain
spotting, I would consider thata significantly more quiet
therapy experience, and theessence of both of these
therapies is that the brainknows how to heal itself.
We just have to set up theright conditions, and that's
(19:01):
what it is that I'm doing whenI'm doing either of these
therapies.
So if you want to dive inparticularly to EMDR, what we
are thinking about is and it'syou know, we're going to kind of
pull from sleep too.
So with EMDR, I'm going to giveyou a little bit of history.
It was created, or founded, Ishould say, by Francine Shapiro.
Unfortunately she's no longerwith us, but what happened was
(19:24):
she was diagnosed with cancerand she's obviously very
distressed and she goes on thisinfamous walk in the park and
she's thinking about this recentcancer diagnosis and she's
walking and her eyes are movingleft and right, left and right,
as she's walking on this pathand her eyes are just scanning
and she realizes that after thatshe's gone on this walk and her
(19:47):
eyes are moving back and forthon the path, that she starts to
feel a little bit better, shethinks, okay, this is pretty
cool, there must be something tothis.
So then she is in her PhDprogram to become a psychologist
and she has to do research.
So she decides, okay, I'm goingto bring people into my lab,
I'm going to ask them to thinkabout something that is
distressing to them and I'mgoing to kind of mimic what
(20:10):
happened on her walk.
She's going to face them andshe's going to ask them to
follow her, use their eyes, tofollow her fingers as she moves
them back and forth, to kind ofmimic that experience that she
had when she was on the path.
And she finds that she bringsperson after person into her lab
(20:31):
, asks them to think aboutsomething distressing, has them
move their eyes back and forth,and they also experience the
same thing where their distressgoes down too.
And so, okay, there must besomething to this.
And eventually it becomes EMDReye movement desensitization and
reprocessing and basically whatwe're doing is and she one
(20:52):
really interesting thing thatshe said before she passed was
that she wishes that she didn'tcall it eye movement,
desensitization and reprocessing.
She wishes that she called itsomething different, because,
even though eye movement is inthe title, there are plenty of
other ways that you can get.
What we call bilateralstimulation is just a very fancy
(21:19):
word for saying that we aremoving both sides of the body at
the same time, so that we'reactivating both hemispheres of
the brain so that they can talkto each other.
So that's what we're doingwhenever we are doing some type
of EMDR.
We're asking a person to comeinto the therapy room in what is
hopefully a place where theyfeel calm, where they feel as
safe as they possibly can, andthen we go back in time and we
(21:42):
think about whatever thetraumatic event is that they'd
like to work on.
And one thing I want to mentionwhenever I say trauma is, you
know, depending upon how wellversed you are in the field of
psychology, there's big T trauma, little T trauma.
At the end of the day, emdr isvery, very robust and you can
categorize just about anythingas being traumatic, because we
(22:04):
all experience things very, verydifferently.
So I want to mention thatbecause you may have people
listening who think, oh well, Inever was deployed or I never
did this or I never did that, soEMDR wouldn't work for me.
And that's not the case at all.
Emdr is incredibly robust.
So what we do is, again, we asksomeone to come into the
(22:28):
therapy room.
We ask them to think about whatit is that was traumatic to
them.
And then an interesting piece ofit is we ask them to think what
is it that I'm saying to myself?
And just to give you an example, maybe we're thinking about a
first responder.
Maybe they did everything thatthey possibly could and yet the
victim died at the scene.
And so in their head they keeplooping on I should have done
(22:49):
more, I should have done more, Ishould have done more.
And so the traumatic memory andthis I should have done more
kind of gets stuck together.
And so what we need to do astherapists who are doing EMDR is
we need to figure out someother belief that the person
would rather have, and even ifthey don't believe it at all 0%
(23:09):
it's a statement that we come uptogether with that is going to
be aspirational.
So, when you're finished withEMDR, what would you rather
believe?
And so, in this example, maybewe would say I did the best I
could with what I had and sowhat we do, and if you're doing
traditional EMDR, at first we'llhave the person think about
whatever that traumatic event isand we'll have them think about
(23:33):
what that original statement is.
So I should have done more.
I should have done more.
So we'll have them hold both ofthose in their mind at the same
time and then you can either dothe eye movement or there's
other ways that you can do it.
So for me, as someone who usedto do a lot of EMDR, doing this
all day long, and for theviewers, who are the people who
(23:54):
are listening, who can't see me,after a while you end up with
just one really big bicep.
One arm gets just super tired.
So I have tappers A lot ofother psychologists do too where
basically it's almost like alittle pebble in each hand and
it vibrates back and forth, andI can control that.
You can also do it withheadphones and you can control a
(24:17):
tone in the left ear and theright ear.
There's lots of different waysto do it.
Emdr can also be done with kidsand adolescents.
It's really, really effective.
And a more fun way would bemaybe throwing a ball or a toy
back and forth or marching ordrumming, so whatever ways in
which we're moving the left andthe right sides of the body.
That's really what the bilateralstimulation is.
(24:37):
It's just a very fancy word andthe person will continually ask
them.
As a therapist, I will ask themhow distressed they're feeling
and oftentimes, as we do anytype of treatment where we're
thinking about something that'straumatic, our distress will
likely go up.
And as we continue doing thisbilateral stimulation, our
distress will likely go up.
(24:58):
And as we continue doing thisbilateral simulation, eventually
the distress will go down.
And I'll just work with theperson and I'll normally ask on
a scale from zero to 10, howdistressing is it so zero, no
distress at all, 10,.
I couldn't feel more distressed.
And we'll normally see a littlebit of a roller coaster, like
maybe we'll start somewhere inthe middle, maybe like a five or
a six.
Normally it will go up a littlebit of a roller coaster, like
maybe we'll start somewhere inthe middle, maybe like a five or
(25:18):
six.
Normally it will go up a littlebit and then normally the
distress does go down.
And so I'll work with theperson to determine okay, do you
think that stopping at a threeis a good place to stop, or do
you think that the distress cango down even further?
And I spend a lot of time againjust trying to individualize
this experience for them.
And sometimes people are reallyhappy with a three like, wow,
(25:38):
my distress has really gone downor no, I want it to go down
even further.
Let's keep working.
You want to?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
get rid of it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, and you know what With EMDR it is so
beautiful because after one tothree sessions, people tend to
feel significantly better.
So not only is there not thatmuch talking for people who want
to do therapy or would like tohave the results of therapy but
don't want to talk, but it'svery, very rapid and very
(26:04):
effective and veryscientifically and
research-based.
So let me come back to theprocess here.
So we are having them hold intheir mind the traumatic event
and then what it was that theywere saying to themselves and
that was a maladaptive statement.
That was I should have donemore.
I should have done more.
So after we get the distress toa level where we're happy with,
(26:24):
then what we do is we hold thetraumatic event and we hold our
new statement that we came upwith.
So I did the best I could withwhat I had and basically what
we're trying to do is installthis new thought and we're
trying to replace the oldthought, basically.
So another way that you couldthink about this is if you open
up a Word document, if you typeinto it, if you make changes,
(26:46):
you can highlight things, copypaste, whatever.
When you click save, it saves.
So then when you open up thatWord document again, all the
changes that you made will bethere and will be saved.
And that's what we're trying todo with this memory network of
what it is that that traumaticevent was.
We're trying to go in and we'renot changing the content.
(27:08):
I don't have a magic wand.
I can't take away yourtraumatic memories.
If I did, I'd probably bemaking a hell of a lot more
money, but I cannot do that.
But what I can do is I canchange the way that you think
about that experience.
I can make it more adaptive.
So that's what we'll do.
Next is we have the personthink about the traumatic event,
hold it with their newstatement and then we do more
(27:30):
bilateral stimulation and I'llkeep checking in with the person
.
Okay, how true does thatstatement feel now?
And as we continue to do moreand more of that bilateral
stimulation whether that's theeye movements or what other
modality we're going to use thestatement starts to feel more
and more true, especially evenif at the beginning it was a
zero.
(27:50):
Yeah, I don't feel this at all.
This is not true at all.
As we do the bilateralstimulation, we are installing
this new thought and it becomespart of this neural network and
it's pretty incredible.
And then, as we start to wrapup EMDR, what we one of our
final stages is we know that thebody keeps the score.
(28:11):
So there's oftentimes, wheneverwe think of a traumatic memory,
maybe we start to have a littlebit of a fight or flight
response.
So maybe our palms are startingto feel sweaty, maybe our
heart's racing, maybe the chestfeels really heavy.
It's going to look differentfor everybody, but what we want
to do is we want to strip awaythat physiological experience
(28:31):
from the memory.
We just want you to think aboutthe memory as if it was.
When I asked you what you hadfor dinner last night.
Hopefully it wasn't thatexciting or that traumatic.
I hope it's just a generalmemory where you can tell me
yeah, I had mac and cheese,whatever.
So what we're doing is I'masking the person to do a body
scan.
So I'm asking the person tothink about what that traumatic
(28:52):
event was and then to just scanmentally from the top of their
head down to the bottom of theirfeet, looking for any areas
where they may be holdingtightness, tension, something
that feels uncomfortable.
And when they identify whatthat is, then we will shift our
focus.
So say, for example oh, I'mreally feeling like these
butterflies in my stomach when Ithink about this traumatic
(29:14):
event.
So what we'll do is we willshift the focus and the focus
will be completely on thosebutterflies in the stomach, and
then we do more bilateralstimulation.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
So this is an ongoing process until you release the
memory or release the emotionthat's associated with the
memory.
So it just becomes a thought.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Exactly, exactly.
That is the end goal.
Is that at the end you canthink about this traumatic
experience because, again, it'sstill part of your lived
experience, it's still a part ofwho you are, but you can bring
it up and it won't be asemotional, it won't be as vivid.
Tell people is that sometimes,whenever we've experienced
(29:58):
something traumatic, it feelslike it's right here.
And for those of you who arejust listening, I have my hand
in front of my face and my handis the traumatic memory.
So I'm having a hard timeengaging with Bruce here, who's
my host, or I'm having a hardtime engaging with life or my
family or my work, and what wereally need to do is we need to
take this trauma and move it outof the way.
That's what we need to doBecause oftentimes, even if this
trauma happened last week, lastmonth, last year, 10 years ago,
(30:22):
sometimes it can just get inthe way, in the way of us being
present and living our life inthe way that we want it to.
And so that's what EMDR andbrain spotting will do, is it
kind of takes that memory andputs it back in the memory
filing cabinet chronologicallywhere it belongs, just to give a
little bit more brain science,because it feels much in
(30:43):
alignment with broken brains isthat the hippocampus and again,
another disclaimer that I'llgive is the brain is the most
complex device in the entireworld.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
That's why we need to protect it.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
We very much need to protect it, but also it's still
very mysterious to us.
So we know a lot of whathappens, but we don't know
everything that happens, and sowe believe that the hippocampus
is where memories are made andstored and we're just going to
leave it at that.
However, one very interestingthing about the hippocampus is
that it is covered in cortisolreceptors.
(31:19):
Cortisol is our stress hormone,so when something happens to us
that is very stressful if itcould be traumatic, if it's
life-threatening our body isgoing to release cortisol,
because that is what it's builtto do.
That is the stress hormone.
So cortisol magnetizes to thehippocampus and then the
(31:43):
hippocampus can't functioncorrectly.
That's why we end up with memoryerrors.
That's why a lot of times peoplewill say I don't know, I'm just
missing pieces.
Or I don't know, I can't thinkabout it chronologically, I
can't tell you from beginning toend what happened.
Or it may be also why sometimespeople have the memory but
(32:04):
they're like zoomed in on maybebroken glass, or they're zoomed
in on hearing a scream insteadof seeing the whole picture like
we normally would.
So we get a lot of memoryfragmentation and a lot of
memory errors, and anothermemory error that we would see
too is that, instead of theevent happening and maybe it's
an event that happened super,duper quick, but instead the
(32:29):
brain feels like, oh my gosh, Iwas in there for minutes or
hours when, in actuality, thatevent happened very, very
quickly.
And so these are some memoryerrors, some issues that we're
seeing whenever we havesomething very scary happen to
us and cortisol is released.
And then that's why people haveissues with their memory, and
(32:51):
that's why things like EMDR andbrain spotting are beautiful,
because you don't have to havethat full memory, you don't have
to be able to explain to mewhat happened from start to
finish.
We can work on those pieces,those fragmented pieces, because
that's oftentimes what we endup with when something traumatic
has happened to us.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
So talk about this brain spot man.
That sounds like some kind of Idon't know.
It sounds cool, it's so coolI've never heard of that before.
Then I do want to get to sleeptoo, because it's so important.
But yeah, let's talk aboutbrain spot.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
So brain spotting is my new favorite and I like to
think about it as EMDR is likeyounger, cooler cousin, if you
will.
So the person who discoveredbrain spotting his name is David
Grand, and he used to be anEMDR trainer and he would travel
all around the world and hewould teach other mental health
professionals how to do EMDR,and then he found that well, you
(33:48):
know, maybe there are somechanges that we need to make, or
I think people respond a littlebit better this way.
So he has a book.
It's called Brainspotting byDavid Grand, and in his very
first chapter and it's a veryeasy read, if you're at all
interested I highly recommendyou pick it up Not sponsored.
I don't even know David Grand,but he talks about Another
(34:13):
disclaimer.
I'm full of disclaimers.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Get it working when you work for the FBI.
There's a lot of disclaimersout there.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Oh my gosh, you have no idea.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So he's working with.
Her name is Karen and she's aclient and she is getting ready
to go to the Olympics for figureskating and he's doing EMDR
with her and the way that heliked to do EMDR, one of the
adjustments that he was doingwas he moved his fingers much
more slowly than we typicallywould.
(34:42):
And as he was moving hisfingers slowly across her visual
field, he noticed that her eyesdid something weird, that they
kind of wobbled when he got to aspecific spot and he's like,
okay, this is weird.
And he's like, okay, this isweird, but let's just go with
this, let's stop and hold onthat spot where the eyes were
(35:03):
wobbling.
And even though him and Karenhad been doing EMDR for over a
year in preparation for her toget ready to go to the Olympics,
and they had worked on lots andlots of different things during
this short period of time like10 minutes where he has his
fingers stopped and he's justasking her to stare at the spot
where her eyes wobbled, she ishaving this experience where all
(35:26):
these things are flashingthrough her mind very quickly
Things about ice skating, thingsabout her family, her
grandmother passing away, allkinds of things are just flying
through her visual field andshe's just processing things
very rapidly.
So after about 10 minutes Davidputs his fingers down and he's
like okay, you know, that wasstrange.
Like I think both of them kindof come to this realization of
(35:49):
like all right, I don't knowwhat that was and that never
happened in our time togetherbecause they've been working
together for over a year.
Happened in our time togetherbecause they've been working
together for over a year.
And basically the reason whyshe's seeing David Grand is
because she's having someperformance issues in that she's
trying to do this triple axelloop and just can't, cannot land
it.
So they have this veryinteresting experimental therapy
(36:13):
session.
She goes to practice the nextday, lands the triple axel loop
and never has a problem againokay okay, right, that's
interesting.
so he decides to kind ofexperiment with this with some
other clients too, and so he iswatching, as he's moving his
(36:35):
fingers across the visual field,what their eyes are doing, what
their facial features are doing, and just kind of really
getting in tune with what'shappening, and and that's what
the entire book is about is hisnarrative of what it's like to
work with these differentclients, and he realizes that
the brain is holding on tovarious different things in
(36:57):
brain spots.
So let me ask you a question.
We'll ask your listeners to dothis too, which is fun.
So what I'd like you to do andI'm not going to ask you to tell
me, but what I want listenersto do, this too, which is fun.
So what I'd like you to do andI'm not going to ask you to tell
me, but what I want you to dois think about the best gift
that you've ever gotten.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Okay, did you notice what your eyes did?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
No.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Okay.
So your eyes like went off tothe side and then they came back
to the center.
So what we believe is happeningis that our eyes are an
outgrowth of the brain and webelieve that when the brain is
working and I just gave you aproblem to work on that it's
obviously busy on the inside.
It's like, okay, we have allthese files, let's look for the
(37:39):
gift file, and what your eyesdid by moving over to the side,
that's where your gift file is.
Your eyes are letting me knowwhere that is located inside
your brain.
So that is how we find what wecall a brain spot thousands and
(38:03):
thousands and thousands ofthings, and it can be very
positive things or it could benegative things like trauma and
experiences that have happenedto us.
So we can work on whatever itis that the person wants to work
on.
And that's why I pick brainspotting more times than not
over EMDR, because brainspotting is a lot more flexible.
Emdr, in my opinion, is a bitmore rigid.
So I like brain spottingbecause it can be more fluid.
(38:27):
I can work with the person,especially if the person's
starting to get distressed,which is often what will happen
in trauma work.
So what I can do is I can askthe person to cover one eye,
cover the other eye and maybethat lowers the distress.
So there's just a lot of reallyinteresting cool things.
And I like that your podcast isall about the brain because I
(38:49):
don't feel like I have toexplain so much to the listeners
about how incredibly complexthe brain is and like why this
works and it sounds a littleinsane, but it's incredible,
incredible.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
That's amazing.
Now let's get to sleep, becausewe all need to sleep, we all
might not need therapy, but weall need to sleep and sleep is
absolutely one of the criticalcomponents out there.
I honestly believe that youknow my son, due to his
inability to sleep, with hisschizophrenia and mood disorders
(39:24):
he was going through.
It was one of the contributingfactors to that tragic day.
And I also know that hey, Iretired from the Army.
I had massive sleep apnea.
I thought it was because of mythree chins at the time.
So you know, and I hated thosemachines, hated them, despised
them, never wore them.
I threw all those pills in thetrash.
(39:44):
Can?
I started running five miles aday and I got rid of my sleep
apnea.
But you know, you know.
But it is something that Iwould like our listeners to know
more about.
You know, because it is relatedto the brain.
It could be related to trauma.
So talk to us about sleep.
You know it's.
(40:05):
You know how do you know?
Because what I'd like them toknow is just have you to
understand more about sleep, sothey can, you know, look at
themselves from a sleepperspective, Because ever since
I got this aura ring, I've neverbeen so dialed into sleep in my
life.
I look at my sleep score everymorning.
Oh it is crazy, man, what thisthing can tell you.
It drains the heck out of yourphone.
But let's talk sleep, let'stalk, sleep, sleep's great.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Let's talk, sleep, sleep.
When I go to conferences, whichis usually at least once a
month, I have a captive audienceand normally people may be
really excited to hear thisperson or this person, and then
I get up on stage and they'relike, oh, sleep, whatever.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Do it every day.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Well, but I think and this is to your point is that
people have been sleeping likecrap for such a long time that
that is their new normal, thatthey don't know what it's like
to get a good night's sleep.
Or maybe they're sleepingdecently, but they again don't
know the difference between adecent night's sleep and a
really good night's sleep.
And I think that normally Ilike to do a Q&A because I think
(41:13):
that it's really important thatpeople get the answers to the
questions that they're lookingfor, versus me just talking
because I could talk all day toyou about sleep, because I love
it so much.
But it's really important thatI interact with people and I get
them to ask questions, andnormally at the beginning it's
crickets, and I'm totally usedto that, and then I start to
answer a few questions and startto hit home why sleep is so
(41:36):
incredibly important.
And then time's up, it's timefor me to get off the stage and
people are like wait, wait, wait.
You didn't answer my question,I didn't get a chance to talk to
you.
Yeah, right, exactly, I'll seeyou at the back of the stage.
So one of the things and again,I think if people are already
tuned in and they're listeningto your podcast, they already
understand the importance of thebrain.
(41:56):
But let me talk a little bitmore about brain health, and I
think that this is one of mybest attention getters brain
health, and I think that this isone of my best attention
getters.
One of the coolest things thatthe brain does is that when you
are sleeping and again, you haveto give your brain enough time
to cycle through the stages andwe have light sleep, we have
deep sleep, we have REM sleepand the average adult should be
(42:20):
sleeping between seven to ninehours per night.
I feel like I can hear peoplelaughing.
Yes, that is true, that is whatis recommended for adults seven
to nine hours.
And when you are doing that,the brain does this incredible
thing it shrinks up and itallows cerebral spinal fluid to
come up and give the brain kindof like a brain car wash fluid
(42:46):
to come up and give the brainkind of like a brain car wash
and it gets rid of misfoldedproteins and toxins and things
that just shouldn't be there andthen it takes it away and gets
rid of it out of the body aswaste Very important.
But why is this important?
Think about it.
I don't know about you, but weput our trash out once a week
and it's very important thatthey come and get the trash,
because if they didn't come andget the trash, well, we're still
(43:08):
making trash, we're still goingto put it out on the curb and
if nobody comes to get it, itstarts to pile up, it starts to
cause problems, going to smell.
Maybe we're going to get somerodents, like it is an issue.
So in the brain, if we're notconsistently allowing ourselves
to get a good night's sleep andlet this trash crew come in what
should be every night, thattrash is starting to build up
(43:35):
and that's a problem.
So when I talk about this, somethings that people may have
heard about before would beplaques and tangles and beta
amyloids.
Yeah, you're shaking your head.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
So what do these terms, what are they often
associated with?
Well, from the perspective ofrepetitive brain trauma, damage,
damage done to the brain byimpacts to the brain, and the
results of that damage areusually or sometimes tau,
(44:14):
amyloid, concentrations,tanglements stuff like that,
neurodegenerative disorders.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
So the umbrella of dementia, of Alzheimer's, where
we are essentially, if we're nottaking care of our brain now
and every night, allowing thistrash crew to come in, then
these plaques, these tangles,these beta amyloids are hanging
around and they're starting toclump together and they're
(44:41):
starting to build up, and wewill pay for that much, much
later in the form of potentiallya neurodegenerative disease.
Now again, here's anotherdisclaimer for you.
Remember there's a lot ofthings that play into something
like Alzheimer's.
There's a genetic component toit, there's lifestyle factors.
So I'm not saying that poorsleep will 100% cause you to
(45:05):
have a neurodegenerativedisorder, but I'm also saying
you're not doing yourself anyfavors either.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Is there any correlation between, like when
you go to your doctor and theygive you Ambien or sleep aids,
what's the difference betweenthat kind of sleep and the
natural?
Or is there a differencebetween prescription induced
sleep and then sleep?
That's natural that you kind ofcycle.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Excellent question, if you can.
Natural sleep is the best sleepbecause we've been sleeping for
the dawn of human time.
The brain and body knows how tosleep and it knows how to move
through the stages of lightsleep, deep sleep, rem sleep.
There are medications that willmake a person sleepy and
there's various differentclasses.
(45:49):
Not all are created equal.
There are some that really messwith what we call sleep
architecture, and sleeparchitecture means that the
person should be cycling throughthese various different stages
and a sleep cycle is normally 50to 90 minutes and normally,
again, if you're giving yourselfseven to nine hours, as adults
(46:11):
should, then you'll be cyclingthrough.
You'll go through, I should say, like five-ish sleep cycles,
and that's really reallyimportant that we're doing that
because different things need tohappen at different times.
That we're doing that becausedifferent things need to happen
at different times.
With regard to deep sleep, thatnormally happens in the early
hours of the evening, likecloser to when you go to bed,
(46:33):
versus REM sleep, that happensin the earlier hours, closer to
when your alarm is going to gooff.
But you should be cyclingthrough these various different
things.
So if we're using sleep aidsand again, not all are created
equal, there are some that willmess with what we call sleep
architecture.
Where it may be suppressingvarious different stages, you're
still sleeping, but you're notgetting this beautiful movement
(46:55):
through the cycles like youshould.
Now you mentioned Ambien.
That is considered a Z drug,and Z drugs are meant to
preserve sleep architecture,more so than other medications
that are either for sleep orthat the side effect is sleep,
and it's often used as a sleepaid off label, so it is a better
(47:18):
choice.
However, again, you're talkingto a psychologist first and a
prescriber second, so I wouldalways try and get the person to
make behavioral changes andlifestyle changes first before
moving to a medication.
And also, something that isreally important that we don't
talk about enough is black boxwarning that comes with our Z
(47:40):
drugs.
So our Ambien, our Sonata andthe black box warning for these
in particular is all about sleepbehaviors, and so this is where
you know.
Maybe you hear a funny anecdote,but it's really not funny in
that, especially if someone'snever taken an Ambien and they
take one and then they realizethat they wake up the next
(48:03):
morning and things maybe are outof place.
Things look kind of strange,and the reason why there's this
black box warning is thatbecause people may do unusual
sleep behavior.
So maybe they get up, they tryand cook something, they try and
drive, they're doing things onthe computer.
So they're abnormal sleepbehaviors and we see that in
(48:25):
these Z drugs.
So it's very, very dangerousand I think that it's important
that people know that because ifyou do have an experience like
that on one of these drugs thenit's game over.
No more.
We can't prescribe that to youanymore because it's too
dangerous.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
I got a family member that started getting heavy and,
uh, she didn't know what wasgoing on.
And when her husband kepttelling her she was eating, she
goes what are you talking about?
And he and he, likes they,there would be chocolate, ice
cream, handprints on the wall,she would go nuts.
And he filmed her one night.
She couldn't believe it.
Yeah, it was ambient.
She was, uh, it was sleepeating, you you know.
(49:02):
And she's like you know why amI getting heavy?
Because you're eating at night.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
she didn't believe that and you're hitting the nail
on the head, right is that?
Luckily she had someone to showher this and literally show her
video evidence, because thereare people who maybe live alone
and they don't have someone toshow them this and then it's not
until you know you wake up andyou're behind the wheel and
you're at Denny's and you don'tknow how you got there, or you
(49:26):
got the red and blues behind you, potentially that too, there's
a lot of different things, andso having this sleep behavior
can be super dangerous, but apiece of it is is that there's
anterior grade amnesia, so youdon't remember that you did it.
That's why she she's like no,this, this didn't happen to me.
(49:47):
It's not because she's indenial, it is because of the
amnesia that's also playing intothis.
So it's it's just verydangerous and I think that we
don't talk enough about that.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
So, as we I guess we get ready to close I mean,
people know, when they're notsleeping Outside of going to
your you know friendlypharmacist and getting some
sleep aids what can they do toimprove their sleep health?
You know, I noticed that if Igo on a five mile run I can't
help but go to sleep that night.
I mean, what are the lifestylehabits that can help them
(50:21):
improve their sleep quality?
Because in the people that wedeal with with repetitive brain
trauma and brain damage, youknow, they're on so many drugs
sometimes they just can't getsleep and it's hard for them and
it is such a challenge.
But they, you know, we all knowhow important it is.
What can they do to improvetheir state of mind?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah.
So I think one of the thingsthat you mentioned is exercise,
and that's fantastic, right?
Exercise is fabulous If it'swithin the recommendations of
what you're allowed to do with abrain injury.
You know, depending upon whatstage you are in recovery, that
will be.
You know, make sure you talk toyour doctor first.
Another disclaimer, however ifthis is within your realm of
you're allowed to do this, thenexercise is great.
(51:02):
Exercise is going to help youfall asleep quicker.
It's going to help you fallmore deeply asleep.
It's going to keep you asleepthroughout the night.
However, when you sleep or,excuse me, the timing of your
exercise is really, reallyimportant.
So I have a lot of clients who,yeah, they're busy all day long
and then the only time thatthey have to exercise is like 9
(51:24):
pm.
Not the best, because wheneveryou exercise think about it I'm
in bed too.
My bedtime is nine o'clock.
But when you exercise and ifit's moderate to vigorous, which
usually exercise is your heartrate's going up, your blood
pressure is going up, your bodytemperature is going up,
(51:48):
cortisol is being released,adrenaline is being released.
A lot of different things arehappening, and so this is great
for exercise.
It's not great for sleep, soyou're putting your body into a
state that's basicallyincompatible with sleep and a
lot of people are like, oh no,it's fine, I'll be able to fall
asleep immediately.
Okay, well, if you do, you'restill setting yourself up for
(52:08):
not the greatest night's sleep.
So I stand by exercising, butexercising earlier in the day if
you can.
Morning exercise is the bestand if you can, bonus points for
exercising outside in the sun,so getting fresh air, but also
whenever the sun is at a lowangle in the sky so it's rising.
If you can be outside withoutsunglasses on, that's going to
(52:30):
strengthen your circadian rhythmis looking towards the sun,
because sun is one of our mostpowerful cues for anchoring into
our circadian rhythm.
Yeah, if you go again, I keeptalking about this could go on
forever.
Well, we could.
We could because I just lovetalking about sleep, which means
you have to bring me back.
(52:52):
I'm very verbose, I just talk.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
I know this is great.
This is great.
I mean, people already know myposition.
So, dr Leigh, how do peoplefind you?
What do you recommend?
Do you have a website?
Can they contact you?
And what's next for you?
Where do you go from here?
Are you going to have your ownpodcast show or sleep counseling
webinar.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
That would be pretty good right.
That would be fun.
That would be really fun.
So I do have a website,drleakhaylorcom.
If you want to get in touchwith me, info at drleahkaylorcom
.
I am in the very beginningstages of YouTube because I want
as many people as possible tohave free sleep education.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
So that's very important to me.
I wrote a book.
It's called the Sleep Advantage.
It's coming out on October 1stand it is for first responders.
But I couldn't help myself so Iwrote a second one.
It is the military edition.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
So that one will be coming out, probably later.
Maybe we're looking at wintertime.
Good for you.
Make sure we get copies of that, and when you start your
podcast, I get the best podcastproducer in the world on this
call right now, so just just letyou hit.
No, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
What a fascinating talk.
I mean, you know, sleep is soessential and we, we and sleep
deprivation causes so muchproblems and we, we, we
(54:13):
absolutely have to get on top.
So thank you so much for comingon your first show, first
episode of broken brains.
I think we just got to dedicatea whole podcast to sleep.
Have you come on?
Because it is just so endemicin our space man, whether it's
veterans, kids, athletes, firstresponders, you know, and
whether they're, you know, goingthrough the trial, the troubles
(54:35):
are going through always havesleep problems and they're
always using drugs to get todefine it, and we got to fix
that.
So thank you for coming on theshow.
I cannot appreciate it and thankyou for your service to our
first responder community.
Selfish service is one of thehighest virtues a person can
have and God bless you for doingthat for those boys and girls.
They need it so bad.
As we come to another end ofanother great episode of Broken
(55:00):
Brains, I want to remind you theonly book for parents on
repetitive brain trauma andcontact sports was written by us
.
It's for free on our website.
Please go download it, give itaway, inform yourself, be
knowledgeable, not just withsleep but on repetitive head
impacts for your kids, andremember that our our only
summit, the world's only summiton repetitive brain trauma, will
(55:20):
be held here in Tampa, hostedby the Mack Parkman foundation,
September 2nd and 3rd.
Dr Leia would love to have youcome by and talk to us about
sleep and it's it's impact on onthe body and the brain, because
we're helping hundreds, if notthousands, of people heal
themselves.
To all of you, Another greatrest, another great episode.
Take care of those brains.
(55:41):
It's the only one you have andwe'll see you next time on
broken brains with bruce parkman.
And thank you so much.
Take care thank you thank you,thank you.
Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation, where welook at the issue of repetitive
brain trauma, from repetitivehead impacts in contact sports
to repetitive blast exposure inour veteran Foundation, where we
look at the issue of repetitivebrain trauma, from repetitive
ed impacts in contact sports torepetitive blast exposure in our
veteran population and whatthese two conditions are doing
to the brains of our athletes,children and our veterans,
(00:36):
resulting in the largestpreventable cause of mental
illness in this country.
We reach out to researchers,experts, authors, patients,
players to bring you a360-degree perspective on this
issue, because it's not trainedin any medical, nursing or
psychological courses.
So you have to be informed, youhave to know when you or
(01:00):
somebody you love has beenimpacted or you can prevent them
from being impacted with thisknowledge.
Today we want to welcomeanother wonderful case, thanks
to our producer, denny Caballero, over there in the background
there.
Dr Lea Kayla is a licensedclinical and prescribing
psychologist, trauma specialistand nationally recognized sleep
(01:20):
expert, committed to supportingthe mental health and resilience
of first responders and lawenforcement professionals.
What a mission.
She has a unique background inforensic psychology, trauma
treatment and sleep science,integrating both therapy and
medication management into herpractice, and we're going to
talk about both these key,critical components of sleep
(01:43):
therapy.
She currently serves as theclinical psychologist for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation,where she provides trauma
therapy, psychologicaldebriefings and sleep
optimization strategies foragents exposed to high-risk
operations which we can assumealmost all of them are, and
that's part of the pain thatthey go through, and I'm so glad
that they're helping herEducation and credentials she's
(02:05):
got a PhD in clinical psychology, a master's in forensic mental
health counseling, apostdoctoral MS in clinical
psychopharmacology and certifiedin EMDR Very, very important
emergency area of therapy andbrain spotting and, as we
noticed, she's the FBI'sdesignated sleep expert.
She's delivered trauma therapyand psychology briefings for
(02:26):
agents that have evolved in alitany of events that we all
know that they go through, andshe's provided residency at the
Memphis VA Medical Center.
She's a sought-after speakerand we got her on our show, man,
thanks to Denny, and we are sothankful that you're on here,
leah, because sleep is socritical to our mental health,
(02:46):
it's so critical to our balance,and yet we never realize how
important it is until it's toolate.
So you know, welcome to theshow and tell us please.
I mean, aside from this amazingresume, how did you get
involved in sleep?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Thank you for having me Super excited to be here.
Okay, so I keep getting thisquestion and I wish I could go
back in time and actually tellyou, because I worked at the
sleep clinic at the Memphis VAMedical Center when I was on my
residency year.
And while you're on yourresidency year, you have to
(03:22):
rotate through various differentrotations, and whenever you're
on your residency year, you haveto rotate through various
different rotations.
And whenever you're looking atwhich residency you want to go
to, normally they have ones thatare very exciting, very
attractive, like the one thatyou're like.
Yes, I have to get this one.
And so when I went to theMemphis VA Medical Center, there
were several that I reallywanted and I got them, and I
can't remember if sleep was oneof them or not.
(03:42):
We all have to go into a room,all of the interns and all of
the postdocs, and everyone hasto come out relatively happy.
But there has to be somecompromises, and I got the few
rotations that I wanted, whichwere all forensically oriented,
and then I got a rotation on thesleep clinic, and so I wish I
could go back in time andremember if that was a
(04:05):
compromise or one of them that Iactually wanted.
But I couldn't be more gratefulthat I ended up with a sleep
rotation, because I certainlydid not realize how important
sleep was.
I have only more recentlybecome more of a sleep expert
personally and being able toachieve really good sleep myself
(04:27):
, but before I worked at thesleep rotation, my goodness, my
sleep was kind of all over theplace too.
So it was a learning experience,not only for me personally, but
just to get a chance to workwith our veterans to really
understand the sleep issues thatthey're having, to get an
understanding of what's going onin the brain, what's going on
(04:48):
in the sleep cycles, why arethese so important, and then
trying to educate folks throughvarious different sleep hygiene
classes.
A huge issue that we have withinour veteran population and in
general too, is obstructivesleep apnea, which, when it's
untreated, watch out.
That's a huge problem.
So helping people who have hadsome type of trauma or some type
(05:10):
of issue, who don't want towear their sleep apnea mask
which now we're getting more andmore advances, so it's not as
much of a problem but stillhelping people with that I would
do treatment for insomnia,treatment for nightmares.
So lots and lots of differentthings that I learned when I was
in the sleep rotation, and so Icouldn't be more grateful to
have had that education and thenrealized that there are so many
(05:34):
people who are having issueswith sleep and just being able
to give that education that'swhat I've kind of decided is my
passion and it's, I think so,incredibly important.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I mean, is this like an occupational field?
I mean I've never heard of a.
I mean, when you go to thedoctor and they'll prescribe,
say I'm not sleeping, they'llgive you Ambien right, all right
.
But to understand themechanisms of sleep and how
important it is, I mean itsounds like it's a study all
into itself.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh, absolutely.
I think nowadays you can have ajob in whatever it is you want
to have a job in, but my generaltitle is a clinical
psychologist and then I have theability to prescribe
medications with my postdoctoralmaster's degree in clinical
psychopharmacology.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So while sleep and trauma, as you talked about in
my bio, are where my specialtylies.
Yeah, my title is apsychologist.
They're usually victims of alot of subcustodial trauma.
(06:43):
Many first responders type Apersonalities, male and female
play a lot of competitive sportsbefore the evening Join our
first responder community, ourveteran community, and that's
(07:05):
just another area.
Deal with these folks from apsychological perspective.
Are you finding or do you evenask them about the issue of
subconcussive trauma if theyplay contact sports, or have
they been exposed to repetitiveblast explosions or any
explosions or anything like that?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I would say in my work at the VA which I'm no
longer there that I would bemuch more concerned about blasts
and ask questions regardingthat topic.
But that's a good question.
With regard to the folks that Isee nowadays, those particular
clients, it's not within mystandard realm of questions to
ask about a repeated braininjury unless there's something
(07:39):
that I know of or unlesssomething comes out that there's
a question about that, wherethey're behaving in some way or
their speech.
There's something about it thatI'm like hey, I need to be
asking about a brain injury.
So it's not something that Iwould routinely ask about.
But that's a great question andit it is very, very important,
because whenever someone doeshave a brain injury, things can
(08:01):
go off the rails and it impactslots and lots of different
things, as you know.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
No, absolutely, and we're finding that out that
because the correlation betweenmental illness and brain damage
doesn't lead to these types ofquestions, then you know you get
your traditional approach by.
You know a lot of the VA.
They treat the symptoms right.
You're obviously mentallyyou're struggling and you're
treating the symptoms, which isyou know, and let's talk about
(08:27):
that a little bit.
I mean, obviously you knowyou're here to help the force
and what is your?
You know what is your approachthere.
I mean, there's a lot of waysto use pharmaceuticals to, you
know, help with mental health,and then we all know that
sometimes that's not the bestapproach, given some of the side
effects.
But there's other modalitiesout there.
(08:49):
How do you balance the use ofpharmaceutical drugs in your
approach to mental illness withyour patients?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I love this question, and so I will be fully
transparent with you that I'veonly been a prescriber for about
six months.
I just got my postdoctoraldegree in clinical
psychopharmacology not that longago, so I am a baby prescriber,
if you will.
But the beautiful thing aboutthat is I am a psychologist
first and I'm a prescribersecond, and so my foundation,
(09:21):
the way that I was trained, theway that I've been practicing
for all these years as apsychologist, is through
behavioral interventions, and Ivery strongly stand by that.
I think that anybody else thatyou'll find who is a prescribing
psychologist because we'regetting stronger in the ranks,
there's more and more of us thatwe strongly stand by behavioral
interventions first, behavioralinterventions first, and then
(09:47):
if it seems like pharmaceuticalinterventions are a good option,
then we will move to that,because there's a lot of
evidence that when you pairtherapy and medication, that you
do get this very beautifulsynergistic effect, and so we
certainly want that.
But also, pharmaceuticals arenot without side effects, and
something else that youmentioned that's really
important is treating thesymptoms, and this is something
(10:09):
that, as I was in mypharmacology program, I often
heard that and I'm like well,what's the deal?
You know somebody who is reallypopular in my field.
His name is Steven Stahl.
He's like if you want to learnanything about prescribing, you
watch his videos and you buy hisbook.
And he's just for an example,he says, well, I've never
treated schizophrenia.
And his students are like, well, what do you mean?
(10:31):
And he said, no, I treat thesymptoms.
And that is his whole mindset.
And the way that he talks aboutprescribing and it's very much
the way that we're taught now isabout treating the symptoms and
managing that.
The way that we're taught nowis about treating the symptoms
and managing that.
So whenever you ask me aboutsomeone coming in and wanting to
work with me, what I thinkabout is a very individualized
(10:51):
approach.
What is going on with thisindividual?
Chances are, just because ofthe realm in which I work in,
there's going to be trauma.
Whether it's the work that I doat the Bureau, whether it's the
work that I had done at the VA,there's very likely going to be
trauma.
That's something that I'm justa magnet for.
(11:13):
And then also, there's usuallyyeah, like it or not, I'm a
magnet for that.
One thing that I do want tomention is, yes, I am employed
by the FBI, so everything thatI'm saying here are my own
thoughts, feelings, beliefs,opinions, biases, and I do not
reflect the beliefs of the FBI.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I think we call that a disclaimer Good job.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I need to give you a disclaimer yeah.
So what I like to do is just geta very individualized
understanding of what's going onwith the individual, and
oftentimes trauma goes hand inhand with sleep.
It's kind of like this veryugly cycle of okay, I've
experienced something traumatic,chances are, I'm not dealing
(11:54):
with it, and then that's showingup in poor sleep or nightmares,
and then, when you're notgetting good sleep, then that
increases our chances of justworse mental health outcomes,
worse mood, worse irritability,and so it's just kind of this
really ugly cycle.
So I'm going to I'm veryverbose, I'm going to stop there
, because I think that answersyour question.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
That's why you're here.
Nobody needs to hear me talk.
They already know what I thinkabout all this stuff.
You know I mean on the issue ofrepetitive brain trauma, it's
your approach.
That's very, very excitingbecause you are taking that
individualistic approach.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
But when you so, when you deal with, when you're
dealing as a psychologist andyou're dealing with trauma, and
the symptoms of course manifestthemselves and they can be
treated with drugs.
But do you ever look from acausal perspective on the
psychology, apart from, like youknow, there could be an event
(12:51):
in childhood?
You know the psychological part, but you know the biological
origin.
You know ever worked with acombination of therapy, drugs
and HBOT or transcranialmagnetic stimulation or anything
(13:14):
like that, to stimulate thebrain and improve brain health?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So one thing I'll say is, because I'm at the Bureau
and my services are free,because I'm just an employee, a
lot of people love free.
That's so exciting.
But also because of that andbecause all of my clients are
FBI employees, that we have alot of limitations as far as
what it is that we can do.
(13:40):
And so, yeah, well, I wouldlove.
Like you know, there's so manyexciting things, there's lots of
interesting things coming outon the market.
One of the things that I am kindof interested in is psychedelic
assisted therapy, and thatwould certainly be a no-no
within the FBI.
Like I'm, I wouldn't be allowedto do anything like that.
So an example might be sometype of ketamine assisted
(14:03):
therapy where, yeah, wheresomeone so if you're not
familiar with that, any anybodyhere listening.
That would be where we mightgive some type of psychedelic,
and a good example would beketamine, and then we would go
in and do therapy.
That is not something that I'mallowed to do.
I don't know that we'll ever seesomething like that within the
FBI, but there are people outthere in the community who do do
(14:24):
that ever see something likethat within the FBI, but there
are people out there in thecommunity who do do that.
So, and also as I think thatthe FBI means super well and I
think that there are just a lotof parameters around what I can
do and what employees can do,just because we want to keep our
workforce safe and we alsothere's a lot of very strict
policies around specificmedications and things that are
(14:46):
not well regulated.
So unfortunately, I don't havethe ability to partner with
people out in the community whodo have access to some of these
other cutting edge or veryinteresting upcoming and
emerging therapies.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Well, that's my job.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I wish I did.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
I'm here to tell you that you know, ketamine-assisted
therapy, the psychedelics arehaving enormous and positive
effects with our veteranpopulation.
Yes, and we would like to seethe retired Bureau population.
I have friends at the Bureauand I understand the handcuffs
that we all must operate when wework for.
Uncle Sam, right, it's the wayit is, you know.
(15:24):
But I think you're right andit's exciting to hear that that
you're open to the possibilityof those becoming more available
, Because I mean, FDA ketamineis FDA approved?
It is, it's all about.
Hey, it's on my record and forthe record, it's not really,
it's not a, it's not arecreational experience.
(15:45):
Let me tell you I haven't doneit myself.
I mean, it's challenging, it'straumatic, it's also very, very
healing.
Oh yeah, it's from a closureperspective, it's wonderful.
So hopefully we'll get theresomeday.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I sure hope so.
Yeah, I mean the two therapiesthat you mentioned when you were
reading my bio, that I'mcertified in and that I use
almost every single time someonewalks in my door, is EMDR,
which is eye movement,desensitization and reprocessing
, and the other is brainspotting, and I think that this
is newer, more cutting edge.
A lot of people don't knowabout it even though it has been
(16:24):
around for a while, and one ofmy mentors within the brain
spotting community she doespsychedelic assisted brain
spotting, and so I think thatthere's just so much out there
that needs to be explored thatcan be highly impactful for
clients.
But yes, there are just,unfortunately, some restraints.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, let's talk about EMDR, because most people
think about therapy as beingtherapy.
You know I'm going to paysomebody $150 an hour to do
something I already know, butI'm going to get a good nap
sitting on your couch, so.
But we know that therapy can bepowerful and very, very
successful.
So talk to us about EMDR.
(17:05):
What does that entail and whatare some of the more positive
results that you're getting vicetraditional therapy methods?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Absolutely so.
When I was trained as apsychologist, I was trained in
more talk therapy modalities fortrauma, because I knew I wanted
to be a trauma psychologist andI thought I don't know that, I
love this.
And then I got to the Bureauand then I realized these law
enforcement guys aren't thatinterested in talking about
(17:38):
their feelings.
I'm going to have to come upwith some other methods, and
it's the same thing at the VAtoo.
There's a lot of stigma aroundmental health and what it is
that you have experienced ingoing into and talking to
someone about that, and so Ineeded to figure out another way
to be able to do my job withinthe Bureau, and that's where I
came across EMDR.
(17:58):
So I was very excited to becometrained and then to continue to
become certified, and it hasbeen, like I mentioned, either
EMDR or brain spotting are thetwo most common modalities that
I bring out whenever someonecomes in my door and wants to do
therapy.
So, yes, I do think thatthere's a lot of misconceptions
and the media doesn't help us atall whenever it comes to
(18:20):
thinking about therapy.
I have a couch behind me forthose who are just listening and
they can't see, and it's veryfunny, right?
It is this stigma, this clicheof come and lay down on my couch
and tell me about yourchildhood, and it doesn't have
to be that way at all.
In fact, emdr I wouldcategorize as a relatively quiet
(18:41):
or a silent therapy, and ifyou're not familiar with brain
spotting, I would consider thata significantly more quiet
therapy experience, and theessence of both of these
therapies is that the brainknows how to heal itself.
We just have to set up theright conditions, and that's
(19:01):
what it is that I'm doing whenI'm doing either of these
therapies.
So if you want to dive inparticularly to EMDR, what we
are thinking about is and it'syou know, we're going to kind of
pull from sleep too.
So with EMDR, I'm going to giveyou a little bit of history.
It was created, or founded, Ishould say, by Francine Shapiro.
Unfortunately she's no longerwith us, but what happened was
(19:24):
she was diagnosed with cancerand she's obviously very
distressed and she goes on thisinfamous walk in the park and
she's thinking about this recentcancer diagnosis and she's
walking and her eyes are movingleft and right, left and right,
as she's walking on this pathand her eyes are just scanning
and she realizes that after thatshe's gone on this walk and her
(19:47):
eyes are moving back and forthon the path, that she starts to
feel a little bit better, shethinks, okay, this is pretty
cool, there must be something tothis.
So then she is in her PhDprogram to become a psychologist
and she has to do research.
So she decides, okay, I'm goingto bring people into my lab,
I'm going to ask them to thinkabout something that is
distressing to them and I'mgoing to kind of mimic what
(20:10):
happened on her walk.
She's going to face them andshe's going to ask them to
follow her, use their eyes, tofollow her fingers as she moves
them back and forth, to kind ofmimic that experience that she
had when she was on the path.
And she finds that she bringsperson after person into her lab
(20:31):
, asks them to think aboutsomething distressing, has them
move their eyes back and forth,and they also experience the
same thing where their distressgoes down too.
And so, okay, there must besomething to this.
And eventually it becomes EMDReye movement desensitization and
reprocessing and basically whatwe're doing is and she one
(20:52):
really interesting thing thatshe said before she passed was
that she wishes that she didn'tcall it eye movement,
desensitization and reprocessing.
She wishes that she called itsomething different, because,
even though eye movement is inthe title, there are plenty of
other ways that you can get.
What we call bilateralstimulation is just a very fancy
(21:19):
word for saying that we aremoving both sides of the body at
the same time, so that we'reactivating both hemispheres of
the brain so that they can talkto each other.
So that's what we're doingwhenever we are doing some type
of EMDR.
We're asking a person to comeinto the therapy room in what is
hopefully a place where theyfeel calm, where they feel as
safe as they possibly can, andthen we go back in time and we
(21:42):
think about whatever thetraumatic event is that they'd
like to work on.
And one thing I want to mentionwhenever I say trauma is, you
know, depending upon how wellversed you are in the field of
psychology, there's big T trauma, little T trauma.
At the end of the day, emdr isvery, very robust and you can
categorize just about anythingas being traumatic, because we
(22:04):
all experience things very, verydifferently.
So I want to mention thatbecause you may have people
listening who think, oh well, Inever was deployed or I never
did this or I never did that, soEMDR wouldn't work for me.
And that's not the case at all.
Emdr is incredibly robust.
So what we do is, again, we asksomeone to come into the
(22:28):
therapy room.
We ask them to think about whatit is that was traumatic to
them.
And then an interesting piece ofit is we ask them to think what
is it that I'm saying to myself?
And just to give you an example, maybe we're thinking about a
first responder.
Maybe they did everything thatthey possibly could and yet the
victim died at the scene.
And so in their head they keeplooping on I should have done
(22:49):
more, I should have done more, Ishould have done more.
And so the traumatic memory andthis I should have done more
kind of gets stuck together.
And so what we need to do astherapists who are doing EMDR is
we need to figure out someother belief that the person
would rather have, and even ifthey don't believe it at all 0%
(23:09):
it's a statement that we come uptogether with that is going to
be aspirational.
So, when you're finished withEMDR, what would you rather
believe?
And so, in this example, maybewe would say I did the best I
could with what I had and sowhat we do, and if you're doing
traditional EMDR, at first we'llhave the person think about
whatever that traumatic event isand we'll have them think about
(23:33):
what that original statement is.
So I should have done more.
I should have done more.
So we'll have them hold both ofthose in their mind at the same
time and then you can either dothe eye movement or there's
other ways that you can do it.
So for me, as someone who usedto do a lot of EMDR, doing this
all day long, and for theviewers, who are the people who
(23:54):
are listening, who can't see me,after a while you end up with
just one really big bicep.
One arm gets just super tired.
So I have tappers A lot ofother psychologists do too where
basically it's almost like alittle pebble in each hand and
it vibrates back and forth, andI can control that.
You can also do it withheadphones and you can control a
(24:17):
tone in the left ear and theright ear.
There's lots of different waysto do it.
Emdr can also be done with kidsand adolescents.
It's really, really effective.
And a more fun way would bemaybe throwing a ball or a toy
back and forth or marching ordrumming, so whatever ways in
which we're moving the left andthe right sides of the body.
That's really what the bilateralstimulation is.
(24:37):
It's just a very fancy word andthe person will continually ask
them.
As a therapist, I will ask themhow distressed they're feeling
and oftentimes, as we do anytype of treatment where we're
thinking about something that'straumatic, our distress will
likely go up.
And as we continue doing thisbilateral stimulation, our
distress will likely go up.
(24:58):
And as we continue doing thisbilateral simulation, eventually
the distress will go down.
And I'll just work with theperson and I'll normally ask on
a scale from zero to 10, howdistressing is it so zero, no
distress at all, 10,.
I couldn't feel more distressed.
And we'll normally see a littlebit of a roller coaster, like
maybe we'll start somewhere inthe middle, maybe like a five or
a six.
Normally it will go up a littlebit of a roller coaster, like
maybe we'll start somewhere inthe middle, maybe like a five or
(25:18):
six.
Normally it will go up a littlebit and then normally the
distress does go down.
And so I'll work with theperson to determine okay, do you
think that stopping at a threeis a good place to stop, or do
you think that the distress cango down even further?
And I spend a lot of time againjust trying to individualize
this experience for them.
And sometimes people are reallyhappy with a three like, wow,
(25:38):
my distress has really gone downor no, I want it to go down
even further.
Let's keep working.
You want to?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
get rid of it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, and you know what With EMDR it is so
beautiful because after one tothree sessions, people tend to
feel significantly better.
So not only is there not thatmuch talking for people who want
to do therapy or would like tohave the results of therapy but
don't want to talk, but it'svery, very rapid and very
(26:04):
effective and veryscientifically and
research-based.
So let me come back to theprocess here.
So we are having them hold intheir mind the traumatic event
and then what it was that theywere saying to themselves and
that was a maladaptive statement.
That was I should have donemore.
I should have done more.
So after we get the distress toa level where we're happy with,
(26:24):
then what we do is we hold thetraumatic event and we hold our
new statement that we came upwith.
So I did the best I could withwhat I had and basically what
we're trying to do is installthis new thought and we're
trying to replace the oldthought, basically.
So another way that you couldthink about this is if you open
up a Word document, if you typeinto it, if you make changes,
(26:46):
you can highlight things, copypaste, whatever.
When you click save, it saves.
So then when you open up thatWord document again, all the
changes that you made will bethere and will be saved.
And that's what we're trying todo with this memory network of
what it is that that traumaticevent was.
We're trying to go in and we'renot changing the content.
(27:08):
I don't have a magic wand.
I can't take away yourtraumatic memories.
If I did, I'd probably bemaking a hell of a lot more
money, but I cannot do that.
But what I can do is I canchange the way that you think
about that experience.
I can make it more adaptive.
So that's what we'll do.
Next is we have the personthink about the traumatic event,
hold it with their newstatement and then we do more
(27:30):
bilateral stimulation and I'llkeep checking in with the person
.
Okay, how true does thatstatement feel now?
And as we continue to do moreand more of that bilateral
stimulation whether that's theeye movements or what other
modality we're going to use thestatement starts to feel more
and more true, especially evenif at the beginning it was a
zero.
(27:50):
Yeah, I don't feel this at all.
This is not true at all.
As we do the bilateralstimulation, we are installing
this new thought and it becomespart of this neural network and
it's pretty incredible.
And then, as we start to wrapup EMDR, what we one of our
final stages is we know that thebody keeps the score.
(28:11):
So there's oftentimes, wheneverwe think of a traumatic memory,
maybe we start to have a littlebit of a fight or flight
response.
So maybe our palms are startingto feel sweaty, maybe our
heart's racing, maybe the chestfeels really heavy.
It's going to look differentfor everybody, but what we want
to do is we want to strip awaythat physiological experience
(28:31):
from the memory.
We just want you to think aboutthe memory as if it was.
When I asked you what you hadfor dinner last night.
Hopefully it wasn't thatexciting or that traumatic.
I hope it's just a generalmemory where you can tell me
yeah, I had mac and cheese,whatever.
So what we're doing is I'masking the person to do a body
scan.
So I'm asking the person tothink about what that traumatic
(28:52):
event was and then to just scanmentally from the top of their
head down to the bottom of theirfeet, looking for any areas
where they may be holdingtightness, tension, something
that feels uncomfortable.
And when they identify whatthat is, then we will shift our
focus.
So say, for example oh, I'mreally feeling like these
butterflies in my stomach when Ithink about this traumatic
(29:14):
event.
So what we'll do is we willshift the focus and the focus
will be completely on thosebutterflies in the stomach, and
then we do more bilateralstimulation.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
So this is an ongoing process until you release the
memory or release the emotionthat's associated with the
memory.
So it just becomes a thought.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Exactly, exactly.
That is the end goal.
Is that at the end you canthink about this traumatic
experience because, again, it'sstill part of your lived
experience, it's still a part ofwho you are, but you can bring
it up and it won't be asemotional, it won't be as vivid.
Tell people is that sometimes,whenever we've experienced
(29:58):
something traumatic, it feelslike it's right here.
And for those of you who arejust listening, I have my hand
in front of my face and my handis the traumatic memory.
So I'm having a hard timeengaging with Bruce here, who's
my host, or I'm having a hardtime engaging with life or my
family or my work, and what wereally need to do is we need to
take this trauma and move it outof the way.
That's what we need to doBecause oftentimes, even if this
trauma happened last week, lastmonth, last year, 10 years ago,
(30:22):
sometimes it can just get inthe way, in the way of us being
present and living our life inthe way that we want it to.
And so that's what EMDR andbrain spotting will do, is it
kind of takes that memory andputs it back in the memory
filing cabinet chronologicallywhere it belongs, just to give a
little bit more brain science,because it feels much in
(30:43):
alignment with broken brains isthat the hippocampus and again,
another disclaimer that I'llgive is the brain is the most
complex device in the entireworld.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
That's why we need to protect it.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
We very much need to protect it, but also it's still
very mysterious to us.
So we know a lot of whathappens, but we don't know
everything that happens, and sowe believe that the hippocampus
is where memories are made andstored and we're just going to
leave it at that.
However, one very interestingthing about the hippocampus is
that it is covered in cortisolreceptors.
(31:19):
Cortisol is our stress hormone,so when something happens to us
that is very stressful if itcould be traumatic, if it's
life-threatening our body isgoing to release cortisol,
because that is what it's builtto do.
That is the stress hormone.
So cortisol magnetizes to thehippocampus and then the
(31:43):
hippocampus can't functioncorrectly.
That's why we end up with memoryerrors.
That's why a lot of times peoplewill say I don't know, I'm just
missing pieces.
Or I don't know, I can't thinkabout it chronologically, I
can't tell you from beginning toend what happened.
Or it may be also why sometimespeople have the memory but
(32:04):
they're like zoomed in on maybebroken glass, or they're zoomed
in on hearing a scream insteadof seeing the whole picture like
we normally would.
So we get a lot of memoryfragmentation and a lot of
memory errors, and anothermemory error that we would see
too is that, instead of theevent happening and maybe it's
an event that happened super,duper quick, but instead the
(32:29):
brain feels like, oh my gosh, Iwas in there for minutes or
hours when, in actuality, thatevent happened very, very
quickly.
And so these are some memoryerrors, some issues that we're
seeing whenever we havesomething very scary happen to
us and cortisol is released.
And then that's why people haveissues with their memory, and
(32:51):
that's why things like EMDR andbrain spotting are beautiful,
because you don't have to havethat full memory, you don't have
to be able to explain to mewhat happened from start to
finish.
We can work on those pieces,those fragmented pieces, because
that's oftentimes what we endup with when something traumatic
has happened to us.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
So talk about this brain spot man.
That sounds like some kind of Idon't know.
It sounds cool, it's so coolI've never heard of that before.
Then I do want to get to sleeptoo, because it's so important.
But yeah, let's talk aboutbrain spot.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
So brain spotting is my new favorite and I like to
think about it as EMDR is likeyounger, cooler cousin, if you
will.
So the person who discoveredbrain spotting his name is David
Grand, and he used to be anEMDR trainer and he would travel
all around the world and hewould teach other mental health
professionals how to do EMDR,and then he found that well, you
(33:48):
know, maybe there are somechanges that we need to make, or
I think people respond a littlebit better this way.
So he has a book.
It's called Brainspotting byDavid Grand, and in his very
first chapter and it's a veryeasy read, if you're at all
interested I highly recommendyou pick it up Not sponsored.
I don't even know David Grand,but he talks about Another
(34:13):
disclaimer.
I'm full of disclaimers.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Get it working when you work for the FBI.
There's a lot of disclaimersout there.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Oh my gosh, you have no idea.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So he's working with.
Her name is Karen and she's aclient and she is getting ready
to go to the Olympics for figureskating and he's doing EMDR
with her and the way that heliked to do EMDR, one of the
adjustments that he was doingwas he moved his fingers much
more slowly than we typicallywould.
(34:42):
And as he was moving hisfingers slowly across her visual
field, he noticed that her eyesdid something weird, that they
kind of wobbled when he got to aspecific spot and he's like,
okay, this is weird.
And he's like, okay, this isweird, but let's just go with
this, let's stop and hold onthat spot where the eyes were
(35:03):
wobbling.
And even though him and Karenhad been doing EMDR for over a
year in preparation for her toget ready to go to the Olympics,
and they had worked on lots andlots of different things during
this short period of time like10 minutes where he has his
fingers stopped and he's justasking her to stare at the spot
where her eyes wobbled, she ishaving this experience where all
(35:26):
these things are flashingthrough her mind very quickly
Things about ice skating, thingsabout her family, her
grandmother passing away, allkinds of things are just flying
through her visual field andshe's just processing things
very rapidly.
So after about 10 minutes Davidputs his fingers down and he's
like okay, you know, that wasstrange.
Like I think both of them kindof come to this realization of
(35:49):
like all right, I don't knowwhat that was and that never
happened in our time togetherbecause they've been working
together for over a year.
Happened in our time togetherbecause they've been working
together for over a year.
And basically the reason whyshe's seeing David Grand is
because she's having someperformance issues in that she's
trying to do this triple axelloop and just can't, cannot land
it.
So they have this veryinteresting experimental therapy
(36:13):
session.
She goes to practice the nextday, lands the triple axel loop
and never has a problem againokay okay, right, that's
interesting.
so he decides to kind ofexperiment with this with some
other clients too, and so he iswatching, as he's moving his
(36:35):
fingers across the visual field,what their eyes are doing, what
their facial features are doing, and just kind of really
getting in tune with what'shappening, and and that's what
the entire book is about is hisnarrative of what it's like to
work with these differentclients, and he realizes that
the brain is holding on tovarious different things in
(36:57):
brain spots.
So let me ask you a question.
We'll ask your listeners to dothis too, which is fun.
So what I'd like you to do andI'm not going to ask you to tell
me, but what I want listenersto do, this too, which is fun.
So what I'd like you to do andI'm not going to ask you to tell
me, but what I want you to dois think about the best gift
that you've ever gotten.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Okay, did you notice what your eyes did?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
No.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Okay.
So your eyes like went off tothe side and then they came back
to the center.
So what we believe is happeningis that our eyes are an
outgrowth of the brain and webelieve that when the brain is
working and I just gave you aproblem to work on that it's
obviously busy on the inside.
It's like, okay, we have allthese files, let's look for the
(37:39):
gift file, and what your eyesdid by moving over to the side,
that's where your gift file is.
Your eyes are letting me knowwhere that is located inside
your brain.
So that is how we find what wecall a brain spot thousands and
(38:03):
thousands and thousands ofthings, and it can be very
positive things or it could benegative things like trauma and
experiences that have happenedto us.
So we can work on whatever itis that the person wants to work
on.
And that's why I pick brainspotting more times than not
over EMDR, because brainspotting is a lot more flexible.
Emdr, in my opinion, is a bitmore rigid.
So I like brain spottingbecause it can be more fluid.
(38:27):
I can work with the person,especially if the person's
starting to get distressed,which is often what will happen
in trauma work.
So what I can do is I can askthe person to cover one eye,
cover the other eye and maybethat lowers the distress.
So there's just a lot of reallyinteresting cool things.
And I like that your podcast isall about the brain because I
(38:49):
don't feel like I have toexplain so much to the listeners
about how incredibly complexthe brain is and like why this
works and it sounds a littleinsane, but it's incredible,
incredible.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
That's amazing.
Now let's get to sleep, becausewe all need to sleep, we all
might not need therapy, but weall need to sleep and sleep is
absolutely one of the criticalcomponents out there.
I honestly believe that youknow my son, due to his
inability to sleep, with hisschizophrenia and mood disorders
(39:24):
he was going through.
It was one of the contributingfactors to that tragic day.
And I also know that hey, Iretired from the Army.
I had massive sleep apnea.
I thought it was because of mythree chins at the time.
So you know, and I hated thosemachines, hated them, despised
them, never wore them.
I threw all those pills in thetrash.
(39:44):
Can?
I started running five miles aday and I got rid of my sleep
apnea.
But you know, you know.
But it is something that Iwould like our listeners to know
more about.
You know, because it is relatedto the brain.
It could be related to trauma.
So talk to us about sleep.
You know it's.
(40:05):
You know how do you know?
Because what I'd like them toknow is just have you to
understand more about sleep, sothey can, you know, look at
themselves from a sleepperspective, Because ever since
I got this aura ring, I've neverbeen so dialed into sleep in my
life.
I look at my sleep score everymorning.
Oh it is crazy, man, what thisthing can tell you.
It drains the heck out of yourphone.
But let's talk sleep, let'stalk, sleep, sleep's great.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Let's talk, sleep, sleep.
When I go to conferences, whichis usually at least once a
month, I have a captive audienceand normally people may be
really excited to hear thisperson or this person, and then
I get up on stage and they'relike, oh, sleep, whatever.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Do it every day.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Well, but I think and this is to your point is that
people have been sleeping likecrap for such a long time that
that is their new normal, thatthey don't know what it's like
to get a good night's sleep.
Or maybe they're sleepingdecently, but they again don't
know the difference between adecent night's sleep and a
really good night's sleep.
And I think that normally Ilike to do a Q&A because I think
(41:13):
that it's really important thatpeople get the answers to the
questions that they're lookingfor, versus me just talking
because I could talk all day toyou about sleep, because I love
it so much.
But it's really important thatI interact with people and I get
them to ask questions, andnormally at the beginning it's
crickets, and I'm totally usedto that, and then I start to
answer a few questions and startto hit home why sleep is so
(41:36):
incredibly important.
And then time's up, it's timefor me to get off the stage and
people are like wait, wait, wait.
You didn't answer my question,I didn't get a chance to talk to
you.
Yeah, right, exactly, I'll seeyou at the back of the stage.
So one of the things and again,I think if people are already
tuned in and they're listeningto your podcast, they already
understand the importance of thebrain.
(41:56):
But let me talk a little bitmore about brain health, and I
think that this is one of mybest attention getters brain
health, and I think that this isone of my best attention
getters.
One of the coolest things thatthe brain does is that when you
are sleeping and again, you haveto give your brain enough time
to cycle through the stages andwe have light sleep, we have
deep sleep, we have REM sleepand the average adult should be
(42:20):
sleeping between seven to ninehours per night.
I feel like I can hear peoplelaughing.
Yes, that is true, that is whatis recommended for adults seven
to nine hours.
And when you are doing that,the brain does this incredible
thing it shrinks up and itallows cerebral spinal fluid to
come up and give the brain kindof like a brain car wash fluid
(42:46):
to come up and give the brainkind of like a brain car wash
and it gets rid of misfoldedproteins and toxins and things
that just shouldn't be there andthen it takes it away and gets
rid of it out of the body aswaste Very important.
But why is this important?
Think about it.
I don't know about you, but weput our trash out once a week
and it's very important thatthey come and get the trash,
because if they didn't come andget the trash, well, we're still
(43:08):
making trash, we're still goingto put it out on the curb and
if nobody comes to get it, itstarts to pile up, it starts to
cause problems, going to smell.
Maybe we're going to get somerodents, like it is an issue.
So in the brain, if we're notconsistently allowing ourselves
to get a good night's sleep andlet this trash crew come in what
should be every night, thattrash is starting to build up
(43:35):
and that's a problem.
So when I talk about this, somethings that people may have
heard about before would beplaques and tangles and beta
amyloids.
Yeah, you're shaking your head.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
So what do these terms, what are they often
associated with?
Well, from the perspective ofrepetitive brain trauma, damage,
damage done to the brain byimpacts to the brain, and the
results of that damage areusually or sometimes tau,
(44:14):
amyloid, concentrations,tanglements stuff like that,
neurodegenerative disorders.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
So the umbrella of dementia, of Alzheimer's, where
we are essentially, if we're nottaking care of our brain now
and every night, allowing thistrash crew to come in, then
these plaques, these tangles,these beta amyloids are hanging
around and they're starting toclump together and they're
(44:41):
starting to build up, and wewill pay for that much, much
later in the form of potentiallya neurodegenerative disease.
Now again, here's anotherdisclaimer for you.
Remember there's a lot ofthings that play into something
like Alzheimer's.
There's a genetic component toit, there's lifestyle factors.
So I'm not saying that poorsleep will 100% cause you to
(45:05):
have a neurodegenerativedisorder, but I'm also saying
you're not doing yourself anyfavors either.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Is there any correlation between, like when
you go to your doctor and theygive you Ambien or sleep aids,
what's the difference betweenthat kind of sleep and the
natural?
Or is there a differencebetween prescription induced
sleep and then sleep?
That's natural that you kind ofcycle.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Excellent question, if you can.
Natural sleep is the best sleepbecause we've been sleeping for
the dawn of human time.
The brain and body knows how tosleep and it knows how to move
through the stages of lightsleep, deep sleep, rem sleep.
There are medications that willmake a person sleepy and
there's various differentclasses.
(45:49):
Not all are created equal.
There are some that really messwith what we call sleep
architecture, and sleeparchitecture means that the
person should be cycling throughthese various different stages
and a sleep cycle is normally 50to 90 minutes and normally,
again, if you're giving yourselfseven to nine hours, as adults
(46:11):
should, then you'll be cyclingthrough.
You'll go through, I should say, like five-ish sleep cycles,
and that's really reallyimportant that we're doing that
because different things need tohappen at different times.
That we're doing that becausedifferent things need to happen
at different times.
With regard to deep sleep, thatnormally happens in the early
hours of the evening, likecloser to when you go to bed,
(46:33):
versus REM sleep, that happensin the earlier hours, closer to
when your alarm is going to gooff.
But you should be cyclingthrough these various different
things.
So if we're using sleep aidsand again, not all are created
equal, there are some that willmess with what we call sleep
architecture.
Where it may be suppressingvarious different stages, you're
still sleeping, but you're notgetting this beautiful movement
(46:55):
through the cycles like youshould.
Now you mentioned Ambien.
That is considered a Z drug,and Z drugs are meant to
preserve sleep architecture,more so than other medications
that are either for sleep orthat the side effect is sleep,
and it's often used as a sleepaid off label, so it is a better
(47:18):
choice.
However, again, you're talkingto a psychologist first and a
prescriber second, so I wouldalways try and get the person to
make behavioral changes andlifestyle changes first before
moving to a medication.
And also, something that isreally important that we don't
talk about enough is black boxwarning that comes with our Z
(47:40):
drugs.
So our Ambien, our Sonata andthe black box warning for these
in particular is all about sleepbehaviors, and so this is where
you know.
Maybe you hear a funny anecdote,but it's really not funny in
that, especially if someone'snever taken an Ambien and they
take one and then they realizethat they wake up the next
(48:03):
morning and things maybe are outof place.
Things look kind of strange,and the reason why there's this
black box warning is thatbecause people may do unusual
sleep behavior.
So maybe they get up, they tryand cook something, they try and
drive, they're doing things onthe computer.
So they're abnormal sleepbehaviors and we see that in
(48:25):
these Z drugs.
So it's very, very dangerousand I think that it's important
that people know that because ifyou do have an experience like
that on one of these drugs thenit's game over.
No more.
We can't prescribe that to youanymore because it's too
dangerous.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
I got a family member that started getting heavy and,
uh, she didn't know what wasgoing on.
And when her husband kepttelling her she was eating, she
goes what are you talking about?
And he and he, likes they,there would be chocolate, ice
cream, handprints on the wall,she would go nuts.
And he filmed her one night.
She couldn't believe it.
Yeah, it was ambient.
She was, uh, it was sleepeating, you you know.
(49:02):
And she's like you know why amI getting heavy?
Because you're eating at night.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
she didn't believe that and you're hitting the nail
on the head, right is that?
Luckily she had someone to showher this and literally show her
video evidence, because thereare people who maybe live alone
and they don't have someone toshow them this and then it's not
until you know you wake up andyou're behind the wheel and
you're at Denny's and you don'tknow how you got there, or you
(49:26):
got the red and blues behind you, potentially that too, there's
a lot of different things, andso having this sleep behavior
can be super dangerous, but apiece of it is is that there's
anterior grade amnesia, so youdon't remember that you did it.
That's why she she's like no,this, this didn't happen to me.
(49:47):
It's not because she's indenial, it is because of the
amnesia that's also playing intothis.
So it's it's just verydangerous and I think that we
don't talk enough about that.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
So, as we I guess we get ready to close I mean,
people know, when they're notsleeping Outside of going to
your you know friendlypharmacist and getting some
sleep aids what can they do toimprove their sleep health?
You know, I noticed that if Igo on a five mile run I can't
help but go to sleep that night.
I mean, what are the lifestylehabits that can help them
(50:21):
improve their sleep quality?
Because in the people that wedeal with with repetitive brain
trauma and brain damage, youknow, they're on so many drugs
sometimes they just can't getsleep and it's hard for them and
it is such a challenge.
But they, you know, we all knowhow important it is.
What can they do to improvetheir state of mind?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah.
So I think one of the thingsthat you mentioned is exercise,
and that's fantastic, right?
Exercise is fabulous If it'swithin the recommendations of
what you're allowed to do with abrain injury.
You know, depending upon whatstage you are in recovery, that
will be.
You know, make sure you talk toyour doctor first.
Another disclaimer, however ifthis is within your realm of
you're allowed to do this, thenexercise is great.
(51:02):
Exercise is going to help youfall asleep quicker.
It's going to help you fallmore deeply asleep.
It's going to keep you asleepthroughout the night.
However, when you sleep or,excuse me, the timing of your
exercise is really, reallyimportant.
So I have a lot of clients who,yeah, they're busy all day long
and then the only time thatthey have to exercise is like 9
(51:24):
pm.
Not the best, because wheneveryou exercise think about it I'm
in bed too.
My bedtime is nine o'clock.
But when you exercise and ifit's moderate to vigorous, which
usually exercise is your heartrate's going up, your blood
pressure is going up, your bodytemperature is going up,
(51:48):
cortisol is being released,adrenaline is being released.
A lot of different things arehappening, and so this is great
for exercise.
It's not great for sleep, soyou're putting your body into a
state that's basicallyincompatible with sleep and a
lot of people are like, oh no,it's fine, I'll be able to fall
asleep immediately.
Okay, well, if you do, you'restill setting yourself up for
(52:08):
not the greatest night's sleep.
So I stand by exercising, butexercising earlier in the day if
you can.
Morning exercise is the bestand if you can, bonus points for
exercising outside in the sun,so getting fresh air, but also
whenever the sun is at a lowangle in the sky so it's rising.
If you can be outside withoutsunglasses on, that's going to
(52:30):
strengthen your circadian rhythmis looking towards the sun,
because sun is one of our mostpowerful cues for anchoring into
our circadian rhythm.
Yeah, if you go again, I keeptalking about this could go on
forever.
Well, we could.
We could because I just lovetalking about sleep, which means
you have to bring me back.
(52:52):
I'm very verbose, I just talk.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
I know this is great.
This is great.
I mean, people already know myposition.
So, dr Leigh, how do peoplefind you?
What do you recommend?
Do you have a website?
Can they contact you?
And what's next for you?
Where do you go from here?
Are you going to have your ownpodcast show or sleep counseling
webinar.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
That would be pretty good right.
That would be fun.
That would be really fun.
So I do have a website,drleakhaylorcom.
If you want to get in touchwith me, info at drleahkaylorcom
.
I am in the very beginningstages of YouTube because I want
as many people as possible tohave free sleep education.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
So that's very important to me.
I wrote a book.
It's called the Sleep Advantage.
It's coming out on October 1stand it is for first responders.
But I couldn't help myself so Iwrote a second one.
It is the military edition.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
So that one will be coming out, probably later.
Maybe we're looking at wintertime.
Good for you.
Make sure we get copies of that, and when you start your
podcast, I get the best podcastproducer in the world on this
call right now, so just just letyou hit.
No, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
What a fascinating talk.
I mean, you know, sleep is soessential and we, we and sleep
deprivation causes so muchproblems and we, we, we
(54:13):
absolutely have to get on top.
So thank you so much for comingon your first show, first
episode of broken brains.
I think we just got to dedicatea whole podcast to sleep.
Have you come on?
Because it is just so endemicin our space man, whether it's
veterans, kids, athletes, firstresponders, you know, and
whether they're, you know, goingthrough the trial, the troubles
(54:35):
are going through always havesleep problems and they're
always using drugs to get todefine it, and we got to fix
that.
So thank you for coming on theshow.
I cannot appreciate it and thankyou for your service to our
first responder community.
Selfish service is one of thehighest virtues a person can
have and God bless you for doingthat for those boys and girls.
They need it so bad.
As we come to another end ofanother great episode of Broken
(55:00):
Brains, I want to remind you theonly book for parents on
repetitive brain trauma andcontact sports was written by us
.
It's for free on our website.
Please go download it, give itaway, inform yourself, be
knowledgeable, not just withsleep but on repetitive head
impacts for your kids, andremember that our our only
summit, the world's only summiton repetitive brain trauma, will
(55:20):
be held here in Tampa, hostedby the Mack Parkman foundation,
September 2nd and 3rd.
Dr Leia would love to have youcome by and talk to us about
sleep and it's it's impact on onthe body and the brain, because
we're helping hundreds, if notthousands, of people heal
themselves.
To all of you, Another greatrest, another great episode.
Take care of those brains.
(55:41):
It's the only one you have andwe'll see you next time on
broken brains with bruce parkman.
And thank you so much.
Take care thank you thank you,thank you.
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