April 14, 2025 • 56 mins
In this eye-opening episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, we sit down with brain injury advocate Keana McMahon to explore the devastating effects of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) and repetitive brain trauma — especially in youth sports like football.
Kiana courageously shares her personal story, reflecting on the tragic loss of her late ex-husband, NFL player Justin Strzelczyk, to CTE — a neurodegenerative disease caused by repeated head injuries. Together, Bruce and Kiana break down the dangers of concussions in youth football, the resistance from sports culture to confront brain health, and why change is critical now more than ever.
🎙 In this powerful episode, we discuss:
· The warning signs and symptoms of CTE
· The role of parents, coaches, and organizations in protecting young athletes
· How the NFL and sports culture have downplayed brain trauma risks
· The importance of flag football over tackle football for youth
· Advocacy efforts and legislation driving brain injury awareness
· What every parent needs to know about concussions and brain health
This conversation is a must-listen for parents, athletes, coaches, and anyone passionate about mental health, player safety, and protecting the next generation from the silent epidemic of brain trauma.
👉 Don't forget to LIKE, SHARE, and SUBSCRIBE to Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts for more expert conversations on brain injury, mental health, and recovery.
Support brain injury advocacy and join the conversation about changing the future of sports safety.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is sponsored by The Mac Parkman Foundation
Support The Mac Parkman Foundation by donating today!
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=CR24MY2GDUCZL
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
01:52 Kiana McMahon's Personal Journey
04:22 Recognizing Symptoms of CTE
08:34 The Role of Psychologists in Identifying CTE
10:39 Cultural Resistance to Acknowledging CTE
13:05 The NFL's Influence and Advocacy
16:02 Connecting with Advocacy Groups
18:45 Historical Context of Football and Safety
20:33 Legislative Efforts for Safer Sports
24:01 The Importance of Awareness and Education
28:03 Research Findings on Brain Damage
30:11 The Path Forward for Advocacy and Change
32:32 The Hope for Change in Concussion Research
34:25 Taking Action Against Brain Injuries
35:54 Cultural Pressures in Youth Sports
39:56 The Importance of Organized Sports
43:51 The Role of Coaches in Youth Sports
49:10 Changing the Culture of Youth Sports
52:51 Advocating for Brain Health Awareness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation, where welook at the issue of repetitive
brain trauma, primarily in theforms of repetitive head impacts
from contact sports andrepetitive blast exposure from
our veterans, and how theseimpacts are changing the brains
(00:32):
of our athletes and kids andloved ones and causing an
epidemic of mental illness thatnobody is aware of.
And that is why we're on theshow.
We reach out to the leadingresearchers and scientists in
the space, people that havelived through these tragedies
like me, that have been part ofthese tragedies in their life,
and we bring them to you becauseyou need to know this is not
(00:54):
addressed, it's not trained inour medical institutions here,
and we have hundreds ofthousands of people suffering
from mental illness in science,unaware that their brain
injuries from contact sports andmilitary service could be
impacted.
Today we have another amazingguest on our show today, ms
Kiana McMahon, and Ms Kiana isan advocate for brain injury
(01:16):
awareness and a vocal critic ofthe NFL's handling of player
safety.
As the ex-wife of the latePittsburgh Steelers lineman
Justin Strelzyik, who sufferedfrom chronic traumatic
encephalopathy I think he was atleast stage three Kiana has
shared her firsthand experienceof the devastating impact of
repetitive head trauma.
She has been featured in mediadiscussions about the long-term
(01:39):
effects of concussions andcontinues to raise awareness
about player safety, brainhealth and the need for better
protections in contact sports.
Oh my gosh, I just listed ourentire mission, set with one
podcast guest.
This is going to be an amazingshow, kiana.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show and being here.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Oh no, this is yeah.
I mean obviously.
Obviously the issue ofrepetitive brain trauma,
repetitive head impacts in thiscase, has caused you a lot of
tragedy, a lot of pain.
And it sounds like you're doinga lot with it.
You know we'll start anywhereyou want on this one man.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, you asked questions First.
My name is Kina Kina.
Okay, my bad.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I'm a product of the Massachusetts public education
system, so my bad.
I should have asked that,that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, so you know, we met through an organization that
I do work for, stop CTE, headedby Karen Zegel and her husband,
doc.
We love Karen.
Yes, I'm headed by Karen Zegeland her husband Doc, oh, we love
.
Karen, yes, so I met Karen backwhen the movie Concussion was
coming out and she contacted mebecause it is a story that is
(02:54):
about the doctor that discoveredCTE If people don't know, dr
Bennett Amalu and he discoveredthis in the first three four NFL
players I believe Justin wasthe fourth to be diagnosed and
Karen had contacted me afterhearing about the movie and
(03:16):
that's how we met and then I metyou.
So it's a very strange world tobe in because, for as big as
this problem is the amount ofpeople in it, it's just growing
and growing and growing, and alot of parents don't know the
issues that their kids couldhave later in life due to
(03:39):
contact sports.
So you know, we're here to kindof talk about that and actually
not kind of, but that's whatwe're here to talk about.
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, you know, you lived through this firsthand.
I mean you were married to aprofessional ball player.
It must've been a pretty.
I mean it's it's.
You know, it's the kind oflifestyle you read about sports
and stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And it's not as grand as people think.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, yeah, it's, um, it's not as grand as people
think.
Okay, yeah, it's not, it's justit's not okay and and and
during that time, you know we're, you know the.
I mean, what were the changes?
And where I'm going with thiskina is for parents to
understand that there are subtlechanges in their husbands that
might have played in college andtheir kids that had been
playing ball, any, any contactsport, for a long time.
Looking back, like people askme, look back on my son, right,
(04:32):
um, what are some of the changesthat you might've seen, uh,
with your ex-husband that couldhave indicated that you know he
was on a, you know on a on adifferent path?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
His personality was that of the wild side to begin
with.
So some of the things lookingback now, maybe it was CTE or
maybe it was just a product ofwho he was, so sometimes it was
hard to to figure that out.
You know later on andunderstand that Justin and I
were together.
We got married in 1993.
(05:05):
He quit playing by 98.
And these symptoms started toreally get worse, I would say
around 98, 99.
And we separated in 2001.
So from 98 to 2001, when hequit playing to when we
(05:28):
separated, it was a very fastspiral down.
Um drinking was a big one andbinge drinking, leaving for days
at a time.
He would, he would leave totake the garbage out and he
wouldn't come home for like fourdays and I had two small
children at home.
And you know, back then cellphones weren't.
They weren't the thing they arenow.
So it was, you know, I would, Iwould call bars trying to find
(05:52):
him.
I, honestly, I always, I alwaysknew in my heart of hearts I
was going to get that phone call, that something happened to him
and I thought it would be onhis motorcycle and I thought it
would be on his motorcycle, he'dbe drinking.
But as he progressively gotworse from 98 to 2001,.
It was a lot of.
I thought he had bipolar.
(06:13):
I really that was the symptomsthat I was seeing Very high
highs, very low lows, notshowering for sometimes days at
a time, no contact, one timewhen we were separated, one time
he was supposed to go away forthe weekend and he didn't come
home for six weeks and we wereseparated already and he went
out West on his motorcycle andwe didn't hear from him for six
(06:36):
weeks.
So very erratic behavior,sometimes depressed call me, you
know, crying on the phone thathis father passed away.
And sometimes I look back and Isee these triggers, these major
things that happened in his lifeand I wonder if that triggered
the CTE and the issues.
(06:57):
More, as you know, he got cutfrom the team, his dad died, his
brother was a heroin addict andthere was a lot going on within
the family and I think allthese triggers, you know,
coupled with what he had goingon in his brain, it was just it
was too much.
Sometimes, when I look back, Ithink it was just too much for
(07:19):
him to take.
He did smoke a lot of marijuanaafter he was done playing and
about six weeks before he diedhe came to me and he said I'm
clean no alcohol, no marijuana.
And I know that was truebecause when he died the talks
came back clear.
But also I knew him and I justknew he was telling me the truth
(07:43):
.
And I think sometimes thereality of his life hit him hard
when the self medicationstopped, so to speak.
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Well, I mean the, I mean during that time.
You know, like you know, I usedto ask my son how come you
don't want to do it?
You know he was a veryapathetic Right.
It was like he never gotexcited about things.
And you know he always had areason.
That made sense, because he wasa young man getting ready to
join the Army and all that.
Did your husband have anyreasons for disappearing?
(08:13):
Did anybody even associate thisthing with his brain or his
actual career as a footballplayer?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Did anybody take that no, absolutely not, absolutely
not.
And I mean everybody'sbackground's different, and he
did hail from a family that had,like I said, his brother was a
heroin addict.
There was some depression inhis family, so I just kept
blaming background, blaminggenetics, and not thinking it
(08:41):
was anything else but that.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And that's a big problem with our psychologists
today is that these kids show upor adults, and they're mentally
challenged.
They're going through some hardtimes, obviously right, whether
it's self-medication, abuse,violence but they're completely
untrained in the issue ofrepetitive impacts or
sub-aggressive trauma, so theseissues never get brought up.
(09:07):
And so then of course, you knowthe only therapy is these crazy
pharmaceutical drugs that youknow don't seem to work.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, I mean, that should be the first question
that a psychologist or apsychiatrist asks someone that
comes into their office Did youplay a contact sport?
And I think if they started todo that, they would see that
more often than not, thesepeople that are coming in play
football, they wrestle, whetherit be, you know, local rugby,
(09:39):
ice hockey.
I think they would start to seethat, and it's not something
that the psychologists andpsychiatrists are required to do
, and they probably been aroundthis for you know almost 20
(10:06):
years, over 20 years now.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
right, you've seen this.
So, in your opinion, why?
You know we've been through.
You know we'll talk about CTEand our challenges with that
whole you know group of peoplethat why is this still, you know
, not an issue?
I mean, we've been studying CTEsince 2009.
We've studied the conco.
We spent billions of dollars onconcussion surveys and research
(10:29):
and everybody wants tobiomarkers and all this other
crazy stuff.
Yeah, you have lived this, okay, and I ended up living it.
You know, almost 20 years latera little bit less why, when we
have seen this so much, is thisstill not something that is like
?
I mean, it should be likeseatbelts and smoking.
Right, it should be.
We both know this and you'vebeen in this environment a lot
(10:53):
longer than me.
Why do you think it's still?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Honestly, I think that sports, specifically
football, is so just ingrainedin our culture and men have the
dream for their son to go be thefootball player, the star
quarterback.
I see youth football in thefields by my house all the time
(11:19):
and the dads are coaching.
It's just something that Ithink is so ingrained in our
culture that it's really hardfor people to want to blame
something that has brought themso much joy and brought their
family so much joy and theydon't want to give it up.
It's very hard for people to.
I mean, I know people todaythat their kids are playing
(11:41):
football and I'm friends withthem and I've had people just
unfriend me on Facebook becausethey don't want to see my posts
and so they just go away.
It's like out of sight, out ofmind and they pretend it's not
happening because that'ssomething that is just it's our
culture and really that's what I, what I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, football yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Being around it.
And that's what's so strange tome is I've lived this for, like
you said, 20 years and thereare people just finding out
about it and I'm so far into itand sometimes it baffles me that
people don't know about it.
Just the average person.
I was around a registered nurse.
(12:24):
That was like a couple weeksago.
I was kind of a medical spa,I'll call it, and we were
talking and somehow it gotbrought up and he was a man,
registered nurse, male, andsomehow he was talking about his
kids playing football and CTgot brought up and he didn't
know who I was, my background,and he says to me but don't you
(12:47):
think it's a little blown out ofproportion, like, do they
really know?
Just sitting there like, yeah,we do.
So here's a man who's you know,probably in his late 30s, early
40s, his kids are playingfootball and he doesn't know.
And I think the education's notthere.
And are the schools or youthfootball leagues really going to
want to educate people and turnthem away from their programs,
(13:08):
a program that is already losingkids and it will be worse.
So yeah, on.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Twitter, right and uh , and there's a group of them, I
think it's called NFL playersOne of these, uh, uh, one of
these little chat groups that Ifollow, and they, they send out
tests and they continuously arestriving to try and get some
recognition about this issue fortheir husbands.
(13:38):
Now, um, you know, justinplayed what?
Five years, I mean six years,uh, 1990 to 1998.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
to 1998.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, so he had a long career.
Eight years Per alignment yes,yeah, and he was alignment,
which we know is absolutely theworst position when it comes to
our HI, because they get it onevery play.
Yet to this day, they're stilltrying to get the NFL to make
(14:05):
decisions.
You know, what do you think Imean, besides being a religion?
There's a lot of power here.
There's a lot of money at risk.
Have you had any experiencewith them?
You know, pushing back?
Or do the wives talk to youabout, hey, because this is
going to come up in theircareers, right, their husbands,
(14:25):
you know, going to be dealingwith this sooner or later, you
know?
Do they talk to you abouttrying to get advice, coping
mechanisms or whatever?
Not?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
really For a while.
When the movie came out I wasso inundated with messages on my
Facebook and email.
It got to be very hard becauseit is depressing.
Right, it's a very depressingtopic.
I don't talk to anybody inparticular, I'm not in.
I am in a woman's group onFacebook and I try to give
(14:57):
advice, but it's so hard to giveadvice because everybody's
story is so different and that'swhat I've noticed about this
disease is the decline in thesemen.
Justin was not violent, but Iread these stories where women
are, their men are violent orthey're suicidal.
You know he's trying to jumpoff the balcony.
Justin was not like that.
(15:18):
So it's very hard to give adviceon this topic to individuals
just because it's so differentand you can't get diagnosed with
CTE while you're alive, right.
So I read these stories orsomeone will message me and I
hear their story and you know mymind goes 80% sure it's CTE,
(15:39):
but it could be something elseand maybe he should get checked
for that, right?
So it's very hard to to giveadvice on this just because
everybody's so different and Idon't want people to overlook
that it could be something elsealong with CTE.
Is there a possibility that youknow it is depression, it is
(16:00):
bipolar, let's get that takencare of and and then you know,
deal with the CTE or it's justCTE.
So it's really hard to giveadvice.
I do talk to some women, domessage me or email me, but
again it's very hard to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, and yet you're still in the game.
All right, I mean, I want totell you how much I admire you
for being, you know, 20 yearslater.
You know, karen, and I came tothis a little bit later, you
know, than you, obviously.
I mean, how did you guysconnect?
How?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
did you find Karen?
Well, before, through theconcussion movie, but before the
concussion movie, actually,there is a documentary that is
on Apple TV called the UnitedStates of Football.
There is a documentary that ison Apple TV called the United
States of Football and it wasdone by a man named Sean
Panthelon and he found methrough Kyle Turley, who played
for the Saints, and I'm friendswith Kyle and his wife Stacey
(16:58):
Now because of it.
Kyle wrote a song about Justin.
Kyle had never met Justin, kylehad never met me.
Justin passed away and Kylewrote a song about Justin's
passing and I saw it somewhereand I sent his wife a message
and was like that was beautiful.
I just wanted to say thank youand she said, oh, I want to put
(17:20):
you in touch with Kyle.
And then Kyle put me in touchwith a documentary filmmaker
named Sean Pamplon and that hemade the United States of
football.
I'm in that, james Harrison isin that, kyle Turley is in that.
It's this little knowndocumentary that really did not
get all the what it deservedbecause it was very, very good.
(17:41):
And from that documentarydeserved because it was very,
very good and from thatdocumentary, peter Landesman,
who directed and wroteConcussion, found me.
He called Sean and said I wantto get in touch with Kina.
Sean gave him my information.
Concussion was made, and then Imet Karen because she saw the
movie Concussion and she wasdoing a kind of a viewing party
here in Pittsburgh and she waslike I would love for you to
come.
You know we're here inPittsburgh.
(18:02):
And she was like I would lovefor you to come, you know we're
here in Pittsburgh.
So that is how I ended up withKaren.
The long, the long story of it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Karen's awesome man Gosh.
We love her man.
She's been carrying a torch fora long time.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
She's a trooper yeah, she has.
But if you haven't seen thatdocumentary I definitely would
watch it, Definitely watch it.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
We'll definitely promote it out there.
We had no idea that that exists.
We're always coming acrossthese books that people have
brought up the issue of.
You know there's one calledFootball is no Game for Children
, where this mob just went backand did all this research
showing that up until the 40sand 50s there were serious
conversations about the violenceof football and whether our
(18:47):
children should even be playingit Wow and whether you know if
it's going to be a gladiatorsupport, only men should be
allowed to play this sport.
And she went back historicallyand said look, this conversation
, which we really do need toreengage, is out there.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, it's hard to get anything done.
I know that we talked aboutkaren and we went to congress,
went to washington dc to talk to, you know, senators and
congressmen about, you know,possibly putting regulations on
youth football.
But and you know this, when youget into the meat of it, like
(19:24):
you say, football is a business.
That is the bottom line.
And the NFL has funded studiesfor the NIH.
They are, they're in withpolitics more than I could ever
be.
So it's very hard to go againstsuch a gigantic corporation
(19:45):
that has a thousand more timespulled than I ever will.
So it's very frustrating.
And going back to the wives, yousaid they're trying to be heard
.
I just, it's very hard to beheard.
People don't want to hear it.
They said I have friends thatdon't want to hear it.
They just want their kid toplay football.
(20:06):
They want to have.
So it's really it's a toughplace to be.
I think that the ability isthere to get something passed I
would love to see.
I mean, in the dream world ofmy dreams is there's no youth
tackle football, it's all flag.
And if they have to have it,let's have it at a certain age,
(20:26):
right, whether it's 14, whentheir neck muscles are formed
and they're stronger, theirbodies are bigger and let's just
do flag.
I mean that would be theultimate thing for me to see
passed all over the UnitedStates, but I don't know that
that's going to happen in mylifetime.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I think that's where litigation comes in and that's
where you know I'm not hopefulbecause I don't want to see
football destroyed, but the NFLdoes not have enough money to
deal with all the hundreds ofthousands of people.
We just did a study here inFlorida and I mentioned this on
my last podcast that 83% of ourinmate population has a history
(21:05):
of at least 4.3 TBIs.
A lot of them have playedfootball.
43% of our juveniles have thesame issue, same ratio, and this
is preventative.
Like you said, if we move theflag, we could, because it's all
about aggregate trauma, as youknow, right, I mean, if we took
the exposure out of flag.
The NFL doesn't play.
(21:26):
You know they don't havecontact practices and that's
where 80% of this exposure comesfrom.
You know your ex-husband, myson as lineman.
They got hit on every practiceof every scrimmage and then on
game day If we eliminated that.
And then you know the guys withtalent, like your ex-husband,
they're going to go to the NFL.
Nothing stops native talent.
(21:47):
So, we, you know what are yourperspectives on some of that
Just making sports safer, andthen we'll talk about the issue
of informed consent.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
It's interesting that you say they don't have hitting
practice the NFL during theweek.
Our high school here, which isa great football team, goes to
states every year.
They don't hit all week and I'mnot sure why our high school is
not hitting.
But the youth organization inthe same neighborhoods, in the
same school district, arehitting.
(22:16):
I don't understand, and I thinkthat the ability is.
It's just if there was a voiceI don't know who higher up in
every school district, whetherit be, I don't know.
The superintendent, now here is, I'm saying this out loud Our
youth program is not run by theschool, it is run by parents.
(22:38):
So you don't, they don't reallyhave anybody to answer to other
than someone who's president ofthe board, which is a dad.
So it's really hard and I don't, I don't know that there's a
way to, to, to get people tochange their minds quickly
enough for me.
And, like you said, thetalent's there, the talent's
there, I don't, I don't thinkthat you need to put your kid in
(23:08):
tackle football at the age ofsix.
There is zero reason for that.
And I mean, justin, you and Ihad talked about this a while
back when we were on somethingtogether was that Justin did not
play football until he was in10th grade.
So it's just not you.
You should, you should be.
(23:37):
And I say this to women that Imeet oh, my husband played in
college.
I don't care if he's 30 or 45or 50.
Keep your eye on him Like if heplayed football in college and
high school and he's havingproblems.
Later in life he might have CTE.
So you know, justin didn't playuntil the 10th grade and he was
a really great baseball playerand a great pitcher, very
talented just so talentedathletically.
And he blew out his elbow.
So his dad took him to thefootball field in 10th grade and
said you're playing football,so he didn't play until 10th
grade.
So it's just as important towatch people that don't start at
(23:57):
six as it is to watch thepeople that start at six.
I don't think you can say, oh,my son didn't play till his
junior year of high school andhe didn't play college.
So no big deal, he's fine.
I don't.
I don't believe that.
I think that you should alwaysbe on the lookout.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I mean, we have no idea how many you know, man.
We we get calls from parentswhose kids are in their late
twenties, late 30s.
They played high school andcollege and now they're
struggling horribly.
They're like well, we didn'tknow it could be contact sports
and then, without the educationto your point, nobody's asking
the question and I think that'sleaving a huge gap.
(24:36):
But the fact that your highschool team doesn't play,
doesn't have contact all week isa great improvement over most
of these high schools that areout there, because they're just
knocking these kids' brainssilly again.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't know if it's all week, but I know that they
cut back contact.
And the interesting side ofthat is my son, who is 30 now,
justin tried to get him to playyouth football and we got in a
huge fight.
I will never forget that.
He signed him up and littleJustin did not want to go and we
(25:10):
were separated at the time andhe came over with the helmet and
the pads and all the stuff andlittle Justin was crying he
didn't want to go and Justin'syelling at me and I said he does
not want to play and he got soat me and I said he does not
want to play and he got so madhe threw the helmet and pads
across the kitchen and walkedout of the door, slammed the
door.
He was so, so irate and littleJustin did not play that year
(25:31):
and I think that was like thirdor fourth grade or something,
and little Justin didn't playuntil actually sixth grade and
he did play sixth through 12thgrade.
We did not know about CT, Ithink, until he was in ninth
grade and at the time when I gotthe phone call with the results
of the testing from Dr Amalu,justin was still in the third or
(25:55):
fourth person.
So even though they weretelling me this, my mind was
like that's like four people outof tens of thousands that have
played football, that's, that'sa, that's nothing like.
That's the chances of ithappening A little Justin, are
so slim.
But as the years went on right,the numbers climbed and when
little Justin was a junior andhe started to apply to colleges,
(26:18):
he and he didn't start forfootball.
He was like second stringoffensive line and I brought him
home after a game one night andhe seemed really like kind of
down and I was like are you okay, are you upset?
You're not starting?
And he looked at me and he goesmom, I don't care.
And I go, oh, okay, and he goes.
(26:41):
Did you notice?
All the colleges I applied todon't even have a football team.
I don't want to play.
It's what killed dad.
I don't want to play.
And as a parent that was such alearning lesson Like no only
one college he applied to had afootball team.
I didn't notice, I didn'tdidn't notice.
And so at that point you know,no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Our big problem?
Well, not a big problem.
But when my son was evaluated,she said, well, your son doesn't
have CTE.
And I said, well, do you havebrain damage?
He goes, we had this discussion.
She goes.
Well, I don't look for it.
I'm like why she goes?
Why are you asking me thesequestions?
And I said, well, I'm writing abook and I've read all these
research papers and I'mabsolutely convinced that my
(27:44):
son's mental illness wasassociated with brain damage.
She went back and looked shegoes, oh my God.
And she said would you fund astudy?
So we gave Boston University aquarter million dollars and I'll
send you the study.
But what they found?
They finally looked at everybrain under 30, and this is why
I'm so happy your son made thisdecision First time.
They looked for brain damageassociated with mental illness
(28:05):
and the cause of death.
100% of those brains hadsignificant structural damage to
the brain from RHI blood brainbarrier penetration,
demyelination, axonal tear wholenine yards gray matter, white
matter.
100% of those brains also hadsevere psychological and
emotional disorders and 80% ofthem died by suicide.
Wow, and parents don't knowthat.
(28:28):
No, and only 40% of them, whichis still a bad number, had CTE.
The rest did not.
It is not CTE, it's RHI.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
They now even.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Dr McKiggis, she goes oh, it's the root cod CT.
But to your point, your soninnately knew that.
You know what I'm done and Iwish my son.
He didn't want to play thatlast year and I was waiting for
him to call.
You know he talked to me injunior year.
He's like Dad.
I don't think I'm how you feelnext year.
(28:58):
I think the coach might havesaid something.
The players he's under a lot ofpeer pressures.
Oh yes, and he did not say no.
And that's another thing thatour parents struggle with is the
peer pressure from the team,from the coaches, who don't know
.
They don't know, they just knowthat this is a good athlete and
I want him on the team.
They don't know anything aboutwhat we're talking about, so who
can blame them?
Right, but I think that's sowe're.
(29:21):
You know we're now pushinglegislation here in Florida.
We've got some support forinformed consent.
So we're looking at this.
Look to your point.
We're not going to be banned infootball.
Nobody wants to ban it.
Can we make it safer?
Absolutely.
But what if parents wereinformed that this was like the,
the correlation between smokingand lung cancer, that we now
(29:45):
know that RHI causes braindamage?
Do you really want your kid toplay?
So we're thinking that informedconsent legislation, especially
with the mama bears, right?
Folks like Eukena that nowunderstand that wait a minute,
this thing might be hurting mykid.
Oh no, no, you can tell yourcoach, you go, you know, stuff
(30:09):
it in his pipe, whatever, right?
So we think that might be.
What's your thoughts on that asan approach to trying to
address this issue throughlegislation an approach to
trying to address this issuethrough legislation.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I think that it can be done.
I think that I think it's along road.
I also feel like today there'sso much going on politically
that sometimes things get putlike this Well, they get put on.
it's sad, but it gets put on theback burner.
Right, our issues get put onthe back burner because there's
so many.
There's just bigger issues thatare being thrown on their desk
every day and that's that's hard, because I know that there are
(30:46):
people out there, like when wewent to Congress, that really
listened to us and and, like you, could see light bulbs go off
in their head when we and thiswas 10 years ago, right there
was one congressman and he wasreally big into.
His platform was foster carefor children, and I said to him
I want you to think about allthe kids that come out of foster
(31:09):
care that end up with problemsthat end up in prison.
Me, if the abuse that they tookin foster care resulted in
these brain injuries that madethem go crazy or whatever people
(31:30):
want to say, you know turn todrugs or, you know, become
depressed, they end up on thestreet.
I think that the prison systemI'm getting off topic.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, this is all on topic.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I think the prison system is such a great place for
us to start to test.
I wish that we had the abilityto test every man in prison when
they pass away for CTE, and I'mgoing to guess those numbers
are so high it would be mindblowing.
(32:01):
And then let's look at theirbackground.
Were they in foster care?
Were they abused?
Did they play contact sports?
What were their symptoms?
I really think that that's oneof the places that we would see
a lot of CTE, along withveterans, I think, military
veterans, with veterans, I thinkmilitary veterans.
I'm sure not every single onethat passes away gets tested for
(32:24):
it.
So, and I think the numbersthere would be really high too.
I think there's hope.
Like I said, I saw light bulbsgo off and I could see these
congressmen and women be like oh, oh, okay, Because they don't
even know and we're bringingthis news to them and the
(32:46):
research to them and it reallyit opens their eyes.
So I think there's hope.
I just I wish it would happenfaster.
I'm an I want it done now,tomorrow, person and that's not
happening.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
No, but every time people listen to the show or
listen to you speak or read thebook or whatever it's happening,
I think there's more hope thanever.
You know when.
I wrote the book.
You know I started focusing onsubcustom trauma.
There was only two papers outthere I could find on subcustom
trauma.
Now you type it in, you type inRHI and google is loaded up
(33:23):
with studies.
Nobody's studying cte anymorebecause it's not the problem.
You die with it.
You don't die from it, you diefrom the mental illness that's
caused by the damage to yourbrain and yada, yada, um.
So we're hoping to see that youknow that research is now going
to culminate in action, becauseI am just done with people
researching concussions.
(33:44):
I was like we've done enoughresearch on concussions.
Man, it's all about money andthat's its own industry.
Research community is its ownself-licking ice cream cone over
there where they just keepresearching stuff and they don't
take action.
But you're taking action.
So talk to us a little bitabout what are you doing in this
battle.
It's long, ongoing battle.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well, I'm doing.
I'm doing whatever Karen does.
Yeah, I really I do followwhatever she wants me to do,
whether it's interviews or goingto Congress or news articles.
I think that the day-to-daything I do is sharing my story,
(34:28):
especially in some of theseprivate Facebook groups with
women.
It's very sad and it's veryhard to hear their story, but
they need to be heard andsometimes they're.
You know, you just said aboutthe people and sometimes they
get with somebody who can helptheir husband and the person
(34:49):
just takes their money, likethere's you know people doing,
you know concussion help and Ithink that when you have CTE or
the you know traumatic braininjuries and things, it's just
so different for everybody thatI don't.
Everybody's story is just sodifferent.
I got lost there for a second.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Happens to me every time.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
No, but you know, one of the things we talked about
on that podcast is, you know,women getting completely
domineered by their husbandbecause your kids are going to
play football and they're likewhere's the science, where's the
research?
Help me, help me, help medefend my kids.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And no woman should be in that position, because
there is research, there isthere are stories like yours but
when you have someone whose dadplayed and they played, and
grandfather played, and I havethree boys and they're going to
play, it's so our culture, and Imean I, you know, when Justin,
(35:49):
I had that fight about littleJustin, I I'm the kind of woman
that's not afraid to stand up totell my husband now, but there
are women that will not do thatand their kids will be on that
field and I, I just can't.
I just I just it's really hardwhen I even drive past the youth
football fields to watch.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I was at a red light the other day and this mom with
a nine-year-old at least waswalking across and she had his
pads and his helmet and I wasall the way over in the far side
lane and I couldn't get to thembecause I was at the front of
the red light and I was likeshoot.
And I drove as fast as I couldbut there's no way I could have
made the turn because I wasgoing over a big bridge to get
(36:29):
back.
But my heart, I was like do youknow what you're doing to your
son?
So now I'm going back withbooks and I'm going to hand them
out in the parking lot to dosomething, because I was just
Well, be careful, I know onetime we left brochures all over
cars, okay, and used footballpractice.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Oh, I do.
You'll get a call from theschool district pretty quick if
you do that.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Oh no, it's the school.
And just so you know, here inManatee County we had the Police
Activity League transition fromtackle to flag football.
Really, yep, we told them ourson's story, we showed him
showed him the book.
They listened.
I said this for real, I goabsolutely.
And they go.
You know what?
We've been wanting to do this?
Because now we can invite girlsto flag and get, because it's
(37:16):
all about disenfranchisedchildren and they were so
excited.
So we have the first PALconverted over to flag and we're
trying to get more movementthere, because you know I'm just
done of listening that, ah, youknow we're.
You know we're either from a,you know, a certain demographic
or a certain race, and thatfootball's our only way out.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
And I'm like your child has a better chance of
becoming an accountant, a doctor, a lawyer than they do, of
getting in the NFL bud, okay,but the dreams I always say hope
is a very powerful thing.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And they hope that their kid's the one, that's the
kid that's going to be PatrickMahomes.
You know and you're right, thechances are so slim they're not
even chances, I think you couldprobably buy a lottery ticket,
almost have a better chance.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's like don't stop, you know wasting your kids
future.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Easy to me that people I have.
My youngest plays baseball andhe is very, very good.
I have zero thought that hewill play in college and he's
like a very good baseball player.
I just don't understand.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
You know the odds.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah, the odds are so slim, and even Justin's odds.
He was drafted 298 out of 300people.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
He played defense in college and he was a test for
Chuck Knoll.
Chuck Knoll wanted to see if hecould take a D lineman and turn
him into an O lineman.
He shouldn't have made it ayear but he did.
I mean his odds were just amiracle of all miracles for him,
but he was.
(39:05):
You know, he was like go backto just naturally talented, you
know, for six foot six, 300pounds.
When he skied down a mountainhe made it look graceful.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
He did.
It was crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
He was a good dancer, he just was just had that
talent and I think that you knowsome kids have that and those
are the kids we see that make itand they're just, they're far
and few between.
There's so many kids playingfootball today and all the other
sports.
And to go back, earlier youwere saying like it is important
for our kids to be in organizedsports.
Right, it teaches themsomething.
(39:39):
I really believe that you knowand the camaraderie with your
friends and the respect for yourcoaches and your peers that can
be taught with flag football.
It does not have to be tackleand I'm hoping with flag
football going into the Olympicspeople will be a little more
like, oh, flag football is cool.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
It's got to be cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Because I mean, that is, I don't know about your
school.
Our high school football is nocut, so anyone can join the team
.
Oh, okay, yeah.
School football is no cut, soanyone can join the team.
Oh, okay, yeah, so our our inpennsylvania.
Each high school has to havetwo no-cut sports.
Ours is indoor track andfootball.
So there are kids that play dayin, day out and practice every
(40:21):
day that don't even see thefield.
I think Justin's year there was65 kids on the team.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And it's a big deal on Friday to wear your jersey to
school right Heck.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, it's cool.
That's why they join man.
Yeah, absolutely.
That is why they join Right,yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
No other baseball doesn't do that, hockey doesn't
do that.
You walk in the volunteer roomon friday with your jersey on,
you are special and that's justhow it is, and you know so.
There are kids, like I said, inour district that will never
see the field, but they stillpractice and they're still
getting some hit.
I'm you know, I'm sure somehits in practice, even though
(41:00):
our high school cut back.
Just because they didn't startdoesn't mean they're not going
to end up with a problem, andthey all played youth football
at some point, so they weredefinitely hitting when they
were young.
Does your school not do no-cut?
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Well, on the school that Mac played on, it was a
private school and we were asmall school.
We were like Division 5 out of5.
We had to travel.
We're not a Division 1.
We had to go play the farmteams right out there.
We weren't allowed to play thepublic school system.
It was kind of weird.
We wrestled against them,because Mac was a wrestler and a
(41:37):
football player, but we didn'tplay against them.
It was something about the sizeof our team.
So we took anybody, we took allthe homeschool kids and we had
an awesome coach.
God, I love this guy to thisday.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I mean Mac's departure, you know really, but
he's an amazing guy, that'simportant the coach, the coach
that has experience, because alot of these youth kids you're
saying you love that coach, likeour high school coach.
He's phenomenal.
He's been at this for 20 plusyears and he's just wonderful,
(42:13):
but you have dads teaching atthe youth level.
That shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
They all think they're Chuck Knoll, Bill
Belichick, right?
Yes?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And yeah, it's just I's.
I mean my son.
When he played in sixth grade,his coach was just a crazy dad
and you need coaches withexperience and coaches you trust
and I, I think I believe ourhigh school coach was, is still
he's still there is amazing.
If you had a problem and youwent to him, he sincerely
(42:45):
listened to you.
When Justin played by his senioryear, I went to him and I was
like, just because, knowing atthis point we know, ct happened
and I said, would it be okay Iwent to the athletic director
and the coach if I bought Justinhis own helmet, and just for me
to feel better as a parent, andthey said yes, absolutely.
And just for me to feel betteras a parent, and they said yes,
(43:06):
absolutely.
So you know, I think when youhave experienced coaches, that
will sit and listen to you,that's important, that's really
important as a parent, and Ithink that you can, if you can,
have a conversation with themabout your concerns, I think
they really do take that intoconsideration and that's
probably one of the reasons ourhigh school cut back on, you
(43:29):
know, every day tackle.
They don't, they don't, theydon't do it every day in
practice.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
They are getting smarter.
I know that the coach thatreplaced the coach that we love
we love him too he they havereduced contact by over 60% now
they they've stopped.
They're doing a lot of drills.
You know, and we've been, we'vebeen talking, you know us in
the school.
I'm actually doing a video forthem and for the parents right
(43:53):
now to be aware of this issue,because you know you can even
though our school is not con,you know practicing contact you
like, to your point.
If they're playing on the, onthe public school, on the public
team or one of the for profitleagues, nobody's going to stop
that crazy dad from thinkingit's okay to start smacking each
other, right.
(44:13):
So as long as parents are awareof RHI as an issue, then they
can make better decisions aboutyou know what you know?
One sport and that's it for therest of the year.
You're going to play baseball.
You're going to playtiddlywinks.
I don't care what you play,you're not playing, you know,
and that's.
You know, my son, heck, I wasso proud of him.
I told him just before he diedI'm like son, I'm so proud of
you, he goes why?
I said, dude, I'm the only twosport parent in school, you're
(44:37):
the only wrestling football guy.
And here I am all proud of myboy, some kid, you know.
And then you know, three weekslater he's not around and I'm
just, you know, and I'mencouraging him, right, and I'm
like, because I'm so, I have noidea, even though semi-pro rugby
player massive concussions,knockouts on the field all the
(44:57):
time got my own issues and I'mout here, you know, unknowingly,
you know, you know so it's not,not fault, I mean.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
so many parents are like that.
We're 6A, our school, which isthe biggest Wow, you got six
(45:26):
very few two-sport athletes comeout of our school district
because it's so competitive andit's so hard to do that because
most sports, football included,they're year-round.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, that's the other issue.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Our team starts training I mean just weight
training in January, mid-january, and most of the time, and even
this year, they went to states,so that doesn't end until
Christmastime, and by the end ofJanuary they're backuary, and
most of the time, and even thisyear, they went to States, so
that doesn't end until Christmastime, and by the end of January
they're back in the weight room.
It is, it is, and baseball isthe same way.
My son does travel baseball inthe summer, he does indoor
training in the winter and he'sback at school in the spring.
(46:00):
So it's very hard to be atwo-sport athlete.
So for Mac, that's amazing, itreally is.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, if you would have picked one of them, that
would have been a lot better.
But here we are, but my husband, my husband, my husband now.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
He wrestled and played football and baseball A
little smaller school.
Sometimes it's hard to pick onewhen you have your peers and
your parents saying how proud,how awesome, look at you and you
know that's.
That's hard to quit and he justwanted to be with the guys you
(46:36):
know you.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
So you mentioned why sports.
He played these sports to bewith his friends.
I mean, he was good.
He wasn't going to go play incollege, like you said, but he
was good and he had fun and allthat stuff.
And that's our point is thatyou know he should be here and
Justin should be here andeverybody we know that's going
(46:57):
through this tragedy.
Karen's son, patrick, should behere.
If we would pay attention tothis issue and make you know
better decisions, informeddecisions and better public
policy.
And we think that you know byyou know mandating that you know
practices one week, you stillpractice one day a week.
You know, okay, leave, save itfor game day.
You can't take a practice out ofthe game and then flag till 14.
(47:20):
And then one sport.
Like you said, you can't playfootball year round.
It's not healthy.
You know, you don't allow yourkid to eat at mcdonald's every
darn day or drink soda break.
Give them, give them a break.
Give the break the only thingthey have.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
That's going to determine who they are, and I
think you know a lot of fear isand I I know this is that well,
if my kid doesn't, he's notgonna, if he doesn't work out
all year round, he's not gonnabe on't, he's not going to.
If he doesn't work out all yearround, he's not going to be on
the team, he's not going to,he's not going to play, he's not
going to see playing time.
And he will if he's talentedenough, he will he will.
(47:58):
I mean, you know, but I mean,but it also comes from the top.
You have NFL players that playhurt.
They play sick.
Justin played a whole game withsepsis and I had to take him
straight to the hospital afterand he was on an IV drip for
five days at our home and thenturned around and left and went
(48:20):
to Kansas on Saturday and wasback on that field.
He had sepsis and he still didnot miss a game.
I mean, that's.
That's the kind of culture itis, though, unfortunately, um, I
had two.
I had two.
Both our children were were duein January, and I hear this all
the time.
So-and-so's wife just gavebirth and he's on the field
(48:42):
today.
I had inductions because at thetime the Steelers were going so
far into the playoffs, I hadinductions planned if they made
it to the Super Bowl.
So you don't miss.
I mean you just don't miss.
And that's the kind of culture,it is right, and so it trickles
down to the colleges, the highschools, the middle schools.
(49:02):
You know, if you miss someone,there's always somebody better
to take your spot, and that's,that's a fear that that kids
have, um, probably mainly fromwhat they hear.
You know, even on TV, watchingan NFL game, you know he's back
out there and he was in thehospital last week and he's, you
know, playing through a hurtankle and it's that push, push,
(49:22):
push, push, push, push, push.
And it shouldn't be like that.
Unfortunately it is.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Got to let our kids be good kids.
And yeah, it's not aboutwinning.
Sports are great.
It's about camaraderie, loyalty.
The physical part is all abouthaving fun.
Sports should not hurt ourchildren, I think, and shouldn't
hurt our adults either.
I think we're gonna we're gonnamake a lot of positive gain
(49:49):
there this year.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I hope, I hope so.
I really do ever.
I'm just waiting for the day wecan bring it a little easier,
knowing that the youth that Ialways focus, that the youth
would just quit tackle that.
That would be such a greatstart yeah it's really hard to
watch.
I don't.
There's, there's no purpose forthe tackling for six year old,
(50:15):
seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven,twelve.
Let them grow, let them lettheir brains grow, let their
brains, their brains are stillgrowing and that's it.
Like you said, you wouldn'tfeed the the McDonald's every
day.
Why are you letting them dothis?
And some parents?
Well, it's only just in thefall and that's enough for me,
right, as a parent, but that'sme.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
No, it's, it's, it's.
I think we're coming to thatday Kina.
Well, we're going to be able todo that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
I believe you.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
I am pushing you and I know you and Karen have been
pushing it together.
We're going to get this oneover the line.
I think the time's right and Ithink people are willing to
listen.
I mean, football attendance wasdown this year, football
participation's down, and I talkto these younger generations.
They don't even care aboutfootball, which is like what.
They go I don't watch football,I'm like you don't, yeah, and
(51:10):
so football needs to get aheadof this.
They need to start reaching outand I think if they could
actually make the move and I'mtrying to talk to a couple NFL
owners right now say, look, ifyou actually own this and you
threw Pop Warner under the busand just knocked that and made
(51:31):
it all flag and recommendedthese changes and promoted brain
safety and brain health, notconcussion safety we could make
brain health a priority.
Oh my gosh, you could save thesport.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
And you think that they would jump all over that
because they would look likereally good guys, right they?
Speaker 1 (51:44):
would yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
You know, I mean the optics, for that would actually
probably bring kids back to play.
They've lost a lot of youth,right, I mean?
And I know they put the moneybehind Pop Warner.
So you know, if they startedthat trend, I think they would
see an increase in youth playingflag and let them decide later
(52:11):
in life if they want to continuewith tackle.
I mean, that's such ano-brainer to me as an owner, as
an NFL owner, just because Iwould look really good, because
right now they're not lookingtoo great, you know.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
No, and the longer this goes on you know.
Why did you shorten the kickoffdistances?
Why do you wear those hats?
You're admitting that you havea problem.
You haven't said it yet.
But when society startsunderstanding that you've known
about this for a long time?
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Oh, so long, and you didn't make these changes.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
They're going to eat your lunch man so long.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, you're going to see a lot of change.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
They're going to figure out how to get in that
pocketbook, and then you'regoing to be hurt, man, and so,
yeah, it's very true.
Well, keena, as we close out,talk to us a little bit about
you know where can they find youor your story?
Or you know, in stopcteorg,where can they go to you, know,
learn more about this.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Stopcteorg that is.
Stopcteorg is the mainorganization that I work with.
You know, if anybody ever wantsto get a hold of me, karen will
forward me emails or contactsthat have questions.
Right now is working withStopCTorg on stopping the youth
(53:29):
tackle, getting parents educatedat that level, getting them
educated early and often so thatthey know what we know, because
unfortunately, a very highpercentage of parents that are
letting their kids do the youthtackle don't know, but we want
to give them as much information.
Go to the website there's somuch information there, as I'm
(53:52):
sure there is on your websitethat you can start to this
conversation, whether it be withyour husband or your
significant other or your child,or just within your own inner
self, like is this what I reallywant for my child?
I think you really need to.
There are times in your life asa parent, as a mother,
specifically, you really need totake a stand, and this is
(54:14):
probably the biggest one to meis your child's brain health,
their safety.
They're still growing.
Go to stopctorg, read about itand help us spread the word.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Really, stopctorg, read about it and help us spread
the word.
Really Well, kena, thank you somuch for your time today.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
You are an amazing spokesman on this issue.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
And I think your clarity, your experience and
your guidance are going to helpus all make sports safer and
protect these children.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
I hope so.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yep, we'll get it.
Well, we're starting thisjourney and we're going.
You know we're going to make ithappen, but thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
I'm here for you, whatever you need.
You know where to find me?
Oh, we'll find you.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
We're going to see you at the conference in.
September.
Speaking of which you knowthey'll always close out.
Remember, we got a free book.
It's on our website.
It's on our website.
Go get it.
Stopctorg Endorse this.
They said every parent shouldread this book.
I didn't write it for nothing,so go get the book and get on
there.
We got the Town Hall forVeterans on the 28th of March.
(55:13):
That's going to be a great time.
We're going to talk aboutrepetitive blast exposure,
mental health and how to getcoverage from the VA.
We're going to be doing datepretty soon.
That's going to be an openseminar.
Whether you played in college,whether you played in the NFL or
you played as a youth andyou're having issues you know
somebody has done, come get theinformation you need to take
(55:33):
better care of them.
There's a lot of hope out therethat we're not even talking
about.
And our second annual conferenceon repetitive brain trauma the
only one in the world it canhelp in conjunction with
StopCTorg and Keena and Karen,will be the September 3rd and
4th this year.
We can't wait to see you allthere.
Here in Tampa, we only have somany seats.
We better start jumping on now.
(55:54):
Amazing panel speakers comingup, but thank you all.
So much, keena.
To you, karen StopCTorg.
Thank you for your time andwe'll see you all in the next
episode of Broken Brains.
Take care, have a great one,thank you.
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of Broken
Brains with your host, bruceParkman, sponsored by the Mack
Parkman Foundation, where welook at the issue of repetitive
brain trauma, primarily in theforms of repetitive head impacts
from contact sports andrepetitive blast exposure from
our veterans, and how theseimpacts are changing the brains
(00:32):
of our athletes and kids andloved ones and causing an
epidemic of mental illness thatnobody is aware of.
And that is why we're on theshow.
We reach out to the leadingresearchers and scientists in
the space, people that havelived through these tragedies
like me, that have been part ofthese tragedies in their life,
and we bring them to you becauseyou need to know this is not
(00:54):
addressed, it's not trained inour medical institutions here,
and we have hundreds ofthousands of people suffering
from mental illness in science,unaware that their brain
injuries from contact sports andmilitary service could be
impacted.
Today we have another amazingguest on our show today, ms
Kiana McMahon, and Ms Kiana isan advocate for brain injury
(01:16):
awareness and a vocal critic ofthe NFL's handling of player
safety.
As the ex-wife of the latePittsburgh Steelers lineman
Justin Strelzyik, who sufferedfrom chronic traumatic
encephalopathy I think he was atleast stage three Kiana has
shared her firsthand experienceof the devastating impact of
repetitive head trauma.
She has been featured in mediadiscussions about the long-term
(01:39):
effects of concussions andcontinues to raise awareness
about player safety, brainhealth and the need for better
protections in contact sports.
Oh my gosh, I just listed ourentire mission, set with one
podcast guest.
This is going to be an amazingshow, kiana.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show and being here.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Oh no, this is yeah.
I mean obviously.
Obviously the issue ofrepetitive brain trauma,
repetitive head impacts in thiscase, has caused you a lot of
tragedy, a lot of pain.
And it sounds like you're doinga lot with it.
You know we'll start anywhereyou want on this one man.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, you asked questions First.
My name is Kina Kina.
Okay, my bad.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I'm a product of the Massachusetts public education
system, so my bad.
I should have asked that,that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, so you know, we met through an organization that
I do work for, stop CTE, headedby Karen Zegel and her husband,
doc.
We love Karen.
Yes, I'm headed by Karen Zegeland her husband Doc, oh, we love
.
Karen, yes, so I met Karen backwhen the movie Concussion was
coming out and she contacted mebecause it is a story that is
(02:54):
about the doctor that discoveredCTE If people don't know, dr
Bennett Amalu and he discoveredthis in the first three four NFL
players I believe Justin wasthe fourth to be diagnosed and
Karen had contacted me afterhearing about the movie and
(03:16):
that's how we met and then I metyou.
So it's a very strange world tobe in because, for as big as
this problem is the amount ofpeople in it, it's just growing
and growing and growing, and alot of parents don't know the
issues that their kids couldhave later in life due to
(03:39):
contact sports.
So you know, we're here to kindof talk about that and actually
not kind of, but that's whatwe're here to talk about.
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, you know, you lived through this firsthand.
I mean you were married to aprofessional ball player.
It must've been a pretty.
I mean it's it's.
You know, it's the kind oflifestyle you read about sports
and stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And it's not as grand as people think.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, yeah, it's, um, it's not as grand as people
think.
Okay, yeah, it's not, it's justit's not okay and and and
during that time, you know we're, you know the.
I mean, what were the changes?
And where I'm going with thiskina is for parents to
understand that there are subtlechanges in their husbands that
might have played in college andtheir kids that had been
playing ball, any, any contactsport, for a long time.
Looking back, like people askme, look back on my son, right,
(04:32):
um, what are some of the changesthat you might've seen, uh,
with your ex-husband that couldhave indicated that you know he
was on a, you know on a on adifferent path?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
His personality was that of the wild side to begin
with.
So some of the things lookingback now, maybe it was CTE or
maybe it was just a product ofwho he was, so sometimes it was
hard to to figure that out.
You know later on andunderstand that Justin and I
were together.
We got married in 1993.
(05:05):
He quit playing by 98.
And these symptoms started toreally get worse, I would say
around 98, 99.
And we separated in 2001.
So from 98 to 2001, when hequit playing to when we
(05:28):
separated, it was a very fastspiral down.
Um drinking was a big one andbinge drinking, leaving for days
at a time.
He would, he would leave totake the garbage out and he
wouldn't come home for like fourdays and I had two small
children at home.
And you know, back then cellphones weren't.
They weren't the thing they arenow.
So it was, you know, I would, Iwould call bars trying to find
(05:52):
him.
I, honestly, I always, I alwaysknew in my heart of hearts I
was going to get that phone call, that something happened to him
and I thought it would be onhis motorcycle and I thought it
would be on his motorcycle, he'dbe drinking.
But as he progressively gotworse from 98 to 2001,.
It was a lot of.
I thought he had bipolar.
(06:13):
I really that was the symptomsthat I was seeing Very high
highs, very low lows, notshowering for sometimes days at
a time, no contact, one timewhen we were separated, one time
he was supposed to go away forthe weekend and he didn't come
home for six weeks and we wereseparated already and he went
out West on his motorcycle andwe didn't hear from him for six
(06:36):
weeks.
So very erratic behavior,sometimes depressed call me, you
know, crying on the phone thathis father passed away.
And sometimes I look back and Isee these triggers, these major
things that happened in his lifeand I wonder if that triggered
the CTE and the issues.
(06:57):
More, as you know, he got cutfrom the team, his dad died, his
brother was a heroin addict andthere was a lot going on within
the family and I think allthese triggers, you know,
coupled with what he had goingon in his brain, it was just it
was too much.
Sometimes, when I look back, Ithink it was just too much for
(07:19):
him to take.
He did smoke a lot of marijuanaafter he was done playing and
about six weeks before he diedhe came to me and he said I'm
clean no alcohol, no marijuana.
And I know that was truebecause when he died the talks
came back clear.
But also I knew him and I justknew he was telling me the truth
(07:43):
.
And I think sometimes thereality of his life hit him hard
when the self medicationstopped, so to speak.
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Well, I mean the, I mean during that time.
You know, like you know, I usedto ask my son how come you
don't want to do it?
You know he was a veryapathetic Right.
It was like he never gotexcited about things.
And you know he always had areason.
That made sense, because he wasa young man getting ready to
join the Army and all that.
Did your husband have anyreasons for disappearing?
(08:13):
Did anybody even associate thisthing with his brain or his
actual career as a footballplayer?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Did anybody take that no, absolutely not, absolutely
not.
And I mean everybody'sbackground's different, and he
did hail from a family that had,like I said, his brother was a
heroin addict.
There was some depression inhis family, so I just kept
blaming background, blaminggenetics, and not thinking it
(08:41):
was anything else but that.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And that's a big problem with our psychologists
today is that these kids show upor adults, and they're mentally
challenged.
They're going through some hardtimes, obviously right, whether
it's self-medication, abuse,violence but they're completely
untrained in the issue ofrepetitive impacts or
sub-aggressive trauma, so theseissues never get brought up.
(09:07):
And so then of course, you knowthe only therapy is these crazy
pharmaceutical drugs that youknow don't seem to work.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, I mean, that should be the first question
that a psychologist or apsychiatrist asks someone that
comes into their office Did youplay a contact sport?
And I think if they started todo that, they would see that
more often than not, thesepeople that are coming in play
football, they wrestle, whetherit be, you know, local rugby,
(09:39):
ice hockey.
I think they would start to seethat, and it's not something
that the psychologists andpsychiatrists are required to do
, and they probably been aroundthis for you know almost 20
(10:06):
years, over 20 years now.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
right, you've seen this.
So, in your opinion, why?
You know we've been through.
You know we'll talk about CTEand our challenges with that
whole you know group of peoplethat why is this still, you know
, not an issue?
I mean, we've been studying CTEsince 2009.
We've studied the conco.
We spent billions of dollars onconcussion surveys and research
(10:29):
and everybody wants tobiomarkers and all this other
crazy stuff.
Yeah, you have lived this, okay, and I ended up living it.
You know, almost 20 years latera little bit less why, when we
have seen this so much, is thisstill not something that is like
?
I mean, it should be likeseatbelts and smoking.
Right, it should be.
We both know this and you'vebeen in this environment a lot
(10:53):
longer than me.
Why do you think it's still?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Honestly, I think that sports, specifically
football, is so just ingrainedin our culture and men have the
dream for their son to go be thefootball player, the star
quarterback.
I see youth football in thefields by my house all the time
(11:19):
and the dads are coaching.
It's just something that Ithink is so ingrained in our
culture that it's really hardfor people to want to blame
something that has brought themso much joy and brought their
family so much joy and theydon't want to give it up.
It's very hard for people to.
I mean, I know people todaythat their kids are playing
(11:41):
football and I'm friends withthem and I've had people just
unfriend me on Facebook becausethey don't want to see my posts
and so they just go away.
It's like out of sight, out ofmind and they pretend it's not
happening because that'ssomething that is just it's our
culture and really that's what I, what I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, football yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Being around it.
And that's what's so strange tome is I've lived this for, like
you said, 20 years and thereare people just finding out
about it and I'm so far into itand sometimes it baffles me that
people don't know about it.
Just the average person.
I was around a registered nurse.
(12:24):
That was like a couple weeksago.
I was kind of a medical spa,I'll call it, and we were
talking and somehow it gotbrought up and he was a man,
registered nurse, male, andsomehow he was talking about his
kids playing football and CTgot brought up and he didn't
know who I was, my background,and he says to me but don't you
(12:47):
think it's a little blown out ofproportion, like, do they
really know?
Just sitting there like, yeah,we do.
So here's a man who's you know,probably in his late 30s, early
40s, his kids are playingfootball and he doesn't know.
And I think the education's notthere.
And are the schools or youthfootball leagues really going to
want to educate people and turnthem away from their programs,
(13:08):
a program that is already losingkids and it will be worse.
So yeah, on.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Twitter, right and uh , and there's a group of them, I
think it's called NFL playersOne of these, uh, uh, one of
these little chat groups that Ifollow, and they, they send out
tests and they continuously arestriving to try and get some
recognition about this issue fortheir husbands.
(13:38):
Now, um, you know, justinplayed what?
Five years, I mean six years,uh, 1990 to 1998.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
to 1998.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, so he had a long career.
Eight years Per alignment yes,yeah, and he was alignment,
which we know is absolutely theworst position when it comes to
our HI, because they get it onevery play.
Yet to this day, they're stilltrying to get the NFL to make
(14:05):
decisions.
You know, what do you think Imean, besides being a religion?
There's a lot of power here.
There's a lot of money at risk.
Have you had any experiencewith them?
You know, pushing back?
Or do the wives talk to youabout, hey, because this is
going to come up in theircareers, right, their husbands,
(14:25):
you know, going to be dealingwith this sooner or later, you
know?
Do they talk to you abouttrying to get advice, coping
mechanisms or whatever?
Not?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
really For a while.
When the movie came out I wasso inundated with messages on my
Facebook and email.
It got to be very hard becauseit is depressing.
Right, it's a very depressingtopic.
I don't talk to anybody inparticular, I'm not in.
I am in a woman's group onFacebook and I try to give
(14:57):
advice, but it's so hard to giveadvice because everybody's
story is so different and that'swhat I've noticed about this
disease is the decline in thesemen.
Justin was not violent, but Iread these stories where women
are, their men are violent orthey're suicidal.
You know he's trying to jumpoff the balcony.
Justin was not like that.
(15:18):
So it's very hard to give adviceon this topic to individuals
just because it's so differentand you can't get diagnosed with
CTE while you're alive, right.
So I read these stories orsomeone will message me and I
hear their story and you know mymind goes 80% sure it's CTE,
(15:39):
but it could be something elseand maybe he should get checked
for that, right?
So it's very hard to to giveadvice on this just because
everybody's so different and Idon't want people to overlook
that it could be something elsealong with CTE.
Is there a possibility that youknow it is depression, it is
(16:00):
bipolar, let's get that takencare of and and then you know,
deal with the CTE or it's justCTE.
So it's really hard to giveadvice.
I do talk to some women, domessage me or email me, but
again it's very hard to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, and yet you're still in the game.
All right, I mean, I want totell you how much I admire you
for being, you know, 20 yearslater.
You know, karen, and I came tothis a little bit later, you
know, than you, obviously.
I mean, how did you guysconnect?
How?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
did you find Karen?
Well, before, through theconcussion movie, but before the
concussion movie, actually,there is a documentary that is
on Apple TV called the UnitedStates of Football.
There is a documentary that ison Apple TV called the United
States of Football and it wasdone by a man named Sean
Panthelon and he found methrough Kyle Turley, who played
for the Saints, and I'm friendswith Kyle and his wife Stacey
(16:58):
Now because of it.
Kyle wrote a song about Justin.
Kyle had never met Justin, kylehad never met me.
Justin passed away and Kylewrote a song about Justin's
passing and I saw it somewhereand I sent his wife a message
and was like that was beautiful.
I just wanted to say thank youand she said, oh, I want to put
(17:20):
you in touch with Kyle.
And then Kyle put me in touchwith a documentary filmmaker
named Sean Pamplon and that hemade the United States of
football.
I'm in that, james Harrison isin that, kyle Turley is in that.
It's this little knowndocumentary that really did not
get all the what it deservedbecause it was very, very good.
(17:41):
And from that documentarydeserved because it was very,
very good and from thatdocumentary, peter Landesman,
who directed and wroteConcussion, found me.
He called Sean and said I wantto get in touch with Kina.
Sean gave him my information.
Concussion was made, and then Imet Karen because she saw the
movie Concussion and she wasdoing a kind of a viewing party
here in Pittsburgh and she waslike I would love for you to
come.
You know we're here inPittsburgh.
(18:02):
And she was like I would lovefor you to come, you know we're
here in Pittsburgh.
So that is how I ended up withKaren.
The long, the long story of it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Karen's awesome man Gosh.
We love her man.
She's been carrying a torch fora long time.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
She's a trooper yeah, she has.
But if you haven't seen thatdocumentary I definitely would
watch it, Definitely watch it.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
We'll definitely promote it out there.
We had no idea that that exists.
We're always coming acrossthese books that people have
brought up the issue of.
You know there's one calledFootball is no Game for Children
, where this mob just went backand did all this research
showing that up until the 40sand 50s there were serious
conversations about the violenceof football and whether our
(18:47):
children should even be playingit Wow and whether you know if
it's going to be a gladiatorsupport, only men should be
allowed to play this sport.
And she went back historicallyand said look, this conversation
, which we really do need toreengage, is out there.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, it's hard to get anything done.
I know that we talked aboutkaren and we went to congress,
went to washington dc to talk to, you know, senators and
congressmen about, you know,possibly putting regulations on
youth football.
But and you know this, when youget into the meat of it, like
(19:24):
you say, football is a business.
That is the bottom line.
And the NFL has funded studiesfor the NIH.
They are, they're in withpolitics more than I could ever
be.
So it's very hard to go againstsuch a gigantic corporation
(19:45):
that has a thousand more timespulled than I ever will.
So it's very frustrating.
And going back to the wives, yousaid they're trying to be heard
.
I just, it's very hard to beheard.
People don't want to hear it.
They said I have friends thatdon't want to hear it.
They just want their kid toplay football.
(20:06):
They want to have.
So it's really it's a toughplace to be.
I think that the ability isthere to get something passed I
would love to see.
I mean, in the dream world ofmy dreams is there's no youth
tackle football, it's all flag.
And if they have to have it,let's have it at a certain age,
(20:26):
right, whether it's 14, whentheir neck muscles are formed
and they're stronger, theirbodies are bigger and let's just
do flag.
I mean that would be theultimate thing for me to see
passed all over the UnitedStates, but I don't know that
that's going to happen in mylifetime.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I think that's where litigation comes in and that's
where you know I'm not hopefulbecause I don't want to see
football destroyed, but the NFLdoes not have enough money to
deal with all the hundreds ofthousands of people.
We just did a study here inFlorida and I mentioned this on
my last podcast that 83% of ourinmate population has a history
(21:05):
of at least 4.3 TBIs.
A lot of them have playedfootball.
43% of our juveniles have thesame issue, same ratio, and this
is preventative.
Like you said, if we move theflag, we could, because it's all
about aggregate trauma, as youknow, right, I mean, if we took
the exposure out of flag.
The NFL doesn't play.
(21:26):
You know they don't havecontact practices and that's
where 80% of this exposure comesfrom.
You know your ex-husband, myson as lineman.
They got hit on every practiceof every scrimmage and then on
game day If we eliminated that.
And then you know the guys withtalent, like your ex-husband,
they're going to go to the NFL.
Nothing stops native talent.
(21:47):
So, we, you know what are yourperspectives on some of that
Just making sports safer, andthen we'll talk about the issue
of informed consent.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
It's interesting that you say they don't have hitting
practice the NFL during theweek.
Our high school here, which isa great football team, goes to
states every year.
They don't hit all week and I'mnot sure why our high school is
not hitting.
But the youth organization inthe same neighborhoods, in the
same school district, arehitting.
(22:16):
I don't understand, and I thinkthat the ability is.
It's just if there was a voiceI don't know who higher up in
every school district, whetherit be, I don't know.
The superintendent, now here is, I'm saying this out loud Our
youth program is not run by theschool, it is run by parents.
(22:38):
So you don't, they don't reallyhave anybody to answer to other
than someone who's president ofthe board, which is a dad.
So it's really hard and I don't, I don't know that there's a
way to, to, to get people tochange their minds quickly
enough for me.
And, like you said, thetalent's there, the talent's
there, I don't, I don't thinkthat you need to put your kid in
(23:08):
tackle football at the age ofsix.
There is zero reason for that.
And I mean, justin, you and Ihad talked about this a while
back when we were on somethingtogether was that Justin did not
play football until he was in10th grade.
So it's just not you.
You should, you should be.
(23:37):
And I say this to women that Imeet oh, my husband played in
college.
I don't care if he's 30 or 45or 50.
Keep your eye on him Like if heplayed football in college and
high school and he's havingproblems.
Later in life he might have CTE.
So you know, justin didn't playuntil the 10th grade and he was
a really great baseball playerand a great pitcher, very
talented just so talentedathletically.
And he blew out his elbow.
So his dad took him to thefootball field in 10th grade and
said you're playing football,so he didn't play until 10th
grade.
So it's just as important towatch people that don't start at
(23:57):
six as it is to watch thepeople that start at six.
I don't think you can say, oh,my son didn't play till his
junior year of high school andhe didn't play college.
So no big deal, he's fine.
I don't.
I don't believe that.
I think that you should alwaysbe on the lookout.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I mean, we have no idea how many you know, man.
We we get calls from parentswhose kids are in their late
twenties, late 30s.
They played high school andcollege and now they're
struggling horribly.
They're like well, we didn'tknow it could be contact sports
and then, without the educationto your point, nobody's asking
the question and I think that'sleaving a huge gap.
(24:36):
But the fact that your highschool team doesn't play,
doesn't have contact all week isa great improvement over most
of these high schools that areout there, because they're just
knocking these kids' brainssilly again.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't know if it's all week, but I know that they
cut back contact.
And the interesting side ofthat is my son, who is 30 now,
justin tried to get him to playyouth football and we got in a
huge fight.
I will never forget that.
He signed him up and littleJustin did not want to go and we
(25:10):
were separated at the time andhe came over with the helmet and
the pads and all the stuff andlittle Justin was crying he
didn't want to go and Justin'syelling at me and I said he does
not want to play and he got soat me and I said he does not
want to play and he got so madhe threw the helmet and pads
across the kitchen and walkedout of the door, slammed the
door.
He was so, so irate and littleJustin did not play that year
(25:31):
and I think that was like thirdor fourth grade or something,
and little Justin didn't playuntil actually sixth grade and
he did play sixth through 12thgrade.
We did not know about CT, Ithink, until he was in ninth
grade and at the time when I gotthe phone call with the results
of the testing from Dr Amalu,justin was still in the third or
(25:55):
fourth person.
So even though they weretelling me this, my mind was
like that's like four people outof tens of thousands that have
played football, that's, that'sa, that's nothing like.
That's the chances of ithappening A little Justin, are
so slim.
But as the years went on right,the numbers climbed and when
little Justin was a junior andhe started to apply to colleges,
(26:18):
he and he didn't start forfootball.
He was like second stringoffensive line and I brought him
home after a game one night andhe seemed really like kind of
down and I was like are you okay, are you upset?
You're not starting?
And he looked at me and he goesmom, I don't care.
And I go, oh, okay, and he goes.
(26:41):
Did you notice?
All the colleges I applied todon't even have a football team.
I don't want to play.
It's what killed dad.
I don't want to play.
And as a parent that was such alearning lesson Like no only
one college he applied to had afootball team.
I didn't notice, I didn'tdidn't notice.
And so at that point you know,no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Our big problem?
Well, not a big problem.
But when my son was evaluated,she said, well, your son doesn't
have CTE.
And I said, well, do you havebrain damage?
He goes, we had this discussion.
She goes.
Well, I don't look for it.
I'm like why she goes?
Why are you asking me thesequestions?
And I said, well, I'm writing abook and I've read all these
research papers and I'mabsolutely convinced that my
(27:44):
son's mental illness wasassociated with brain damage.
She went back and looked shegoes, oh my God.
And she said would you fund astudy?
So we gave Boston University aquarter million dollars and I'll
send you the study.
But what they found?
They finally looked at everybrain under 30, and this is why
I'm so happy your son made thisdecision First time.
They looked for brain damageassociated with mental illness
(28:05):
and the cause of death.
100% of those brains hadsignificant structural damage to
the brain from RHI blood brainbarrier penetration,
demyelination, axonal tear wholenine yards gray matter, white
matter.
100% of those brains also hadsevere psychological and
emotional disorders and 80% ofthem died by suicide.
Wow, and parents don't knowthat.
(28:28):
No, and only 40% of them, whichis still a bad number, had CTE.
The rest did not.
It is not CTE, it's RHI.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
They now even.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Dr McKiggis, she goes oh, it's the root cod CT.
But to your point, your soninnately knew that.
You know what I'm done and Iwish my son.
He didn't want to play thatlast year and I was waiting for
him to call.
You know he talked to me injunior year.
He's like Dad.
I don't think I'm how you feelnext year.
(28:58):
I think the coach might havesaid something.
The players he's under a lot ofpeer pressures.
Oh yes, and he did not say no.
And that's another thing thatour parents struggle with is the
peer pressure from the team,from the coaches, who don't know
.
They don't know, they just knowthat this is a good athlete and
I want him on the team.
They don't know anything aboutwhat we're talking about, so who
can blame them?
Right, but I think that's sowe're.
(29:21):
You know we're now pushinglegislation here in Florida.
We've got some support forinformed consent.
So we're looking at this.
Look to your point.
We're not going to be banned infootball.
Nobody wants to ban it.
Can we make it safer?
Absolutely.
But what if parents wereinformed that this was like the,
the correlation between smokingand lung cancer, that we now
(29:45):
know that RHI causes braindamage?
Do you really want your kid toplay?
So we're thinking that informedconsent legislation, especially
with the mama bears, right?
Folks like Eukena that nowunderstand that wait a minute,
this thing might be hurting mykid.
Oh no, no, you can tell yourcoach, you go, you know, stuff
(30:09):
it in his pipe, whatever, right?
So we think that might be.
What's your thoughts on that asan approach to trying to
address this issue throughlegislation an approach to
trying to address this issuethrough legislation.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I think that it can be done.
I think that I think it's along road.
I also feel like today there'sso much going on politically
that sometimes things get putlike this Well, they get put on.
it's sad, but it gets put on theback burner.
Right, our issues get put onthe back burner because there's
so many.
There's just bigger issues thatare being thrown on their desk
every day and that's that's hard, because I know that there are
(30:46):
people out there, like when wewent to Congress, that really
listened to us and and, like you, could see light bulbs go off
in their head when we and thiswas 10 years ago, right there
was one congressman and he wasreally big into.
His platform was foster carefor children, and I said to him
I want you to think about allthe kids that come out of foster
(31:09):
care that end up with problemsthat end up in prison.
Me, if the abuse that they tookin foster care resulted in
these brain injuries that madethem go crazy or whatever people
(31:30):
want to say, you know turn todrugs or, you know, become
depressed, they end up on thestreet.
I think that the prison systemI'm getting off topic.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, this is all on topic.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I think the prison system is such a great place for
us to start to test.
I wish that we had the abilityto test every man in prison when
they pass away for CTE, and I'mgoing to guess those numbers
are so high it would be mindblowing.
(32:01):
And then let's look at theirbackground.
Were they in foster care?
Were they abused?
Did they play contact sports?
What were their symptoms?
I really think that that's oneof the places that we would see
a lot of CTE, along withveterans, I think, military
veterans, with veterans, I thinkmilitary veterans.
I'm sure not every single onethat passes away gets tested for
(32:24):
it.
So, and I think the numbersthere would be really high too.
I think there's hope.
Like I said, I saw light bulbsgo off and I could see these
congressmen and women be like oh, oh, okay, Because they don't
even know and we're bringingthis news to them and the
(32:46):
research to them and it reallyit opens their eyes.
So I think there's hope.
I just I wish it would happenfaster.
I'm an I want it done now,tomorrow, person and that's not
happening.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
No, but every time people listen to the show or
listen to you speak or read thebook or whatever it's happening,
I think there's more hope thanever.
You know when.
I wrote the book.
You know I started focusing onsubcustom trauma.
There was only two papers outthere I could find on subcustom
trauma.
Now you type it in, you type inRHI and google is loaded up
(33:23):
with studies.
Nobody's studying cte anymorebecause it's not the problem.
You die with it.
You don't die from it, you diefrom the mental illness that's
caused by the damage to yourbrain and yada, yada, um.
So we're hoping to see that youknow that research is now going
to culminate in action, becauseI am just done with people
researching concussions.
(33:44):
I was like we've done enoughresearch on concussions.
Man, it's all about money andthat's its own industry.
Research community is its ownself-licking ice cream cone over
there where they just keepresearching stuff and they don't
take action.
But you're taking action.
So talk to us a little bitabout what are you doing in this
battle.
It's long, ongoing battle.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well, I'm doing.
I'm doing whatever Karen does.
Yeah, I really I do followwhatever she wants me to do,
whether it's interviews or goingto Congress or news articles.
I think that the day-to-daything I do is sharing my story,
(34:28):
especially in some of theseprivate Facebook groups with
women.
It's very sad and it's veryhard to hear their story, but
they need to be heard andsometimes they're.
You know, you just said aboutthe people and sometimes they
get with somebody who can helptheir husband and the person
(34:49):
just takes their money, likethere's you know people doing,
you know concussion help and Ithink that when you have CTE or
the you know traumatic braininjuries and things, it's just
so different for everybody thatI don't.
Everybody's story is just sodifferent.
I got lost there for a second.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Happens to me every time.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
No, but you know, one of the things we talked about
on that podcast is, you know,women getting completely
domineered by their husbandbecause your kids are going to
play football and they're likewhere's the science, where's the
research?
Help me, help me, help medefend my kids.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And no woman should be in that position, because
there is research, there isthere are stories like yours but
when you have someone whose dadplayed and they played, and
grandfather played, and I havethree boys and they're going to
play, it's so our culture, and Imean I, you know, when Justin,
(35:49):
I had that fight about littleJustin, I I'm the kind of woman
that's not afraid to stand up totell my husband now, but there
are women that will not do thatand their kids will be on that
field and I, I just can't.
I just I just it's really hardwhen I even drive past the youth
football fields to watch.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I was at a red light the other day and this mom with
a nine-year-old at least waswalking across and she had his
pads and his helmet and I wasall the way over in the far side
lane and I couldn't get to thembecause I was at the front of
the red light and I was likeshoot.
And I drove as fast as I couldbut there's no way I could have
made the turn because I wasgoing over a big bridge to get
(36:29):
back.
But my heart, I was like do youknow what you're doing to your
son?
So now I'm going back withbooks and I'm going to hand them
out in the parking lot to dosomething, because I was just
Well, be careful, I know onetime we left brochures all over
cars, okay, and used footballpractice.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Oh, I do.
You'll get a call from theschool district pretty quick if
you do that.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Oh no, it's the school.
And just so you know, here inManatee County we had the Police
Activity League transition fromtackle to flag football.
Really, yep, we told them ourson's story, we showed him
showed him the book.
They listened.
I said this for real, I goabsolutely.
And they go.
You know what?
We've been wanting to do this?
Because now we can invite girlsto flag and get, because it's
(37:16):
all about disenfranchisedchildren and they were so
excited.
So we have the first PALconverted over to flag and we're
trying to get more movementthere, because you know I'm just
done of listening that, ah, youknow we're.
You know we're either from a,you know, a certain demographic
or a certain race, and thatfootball's our only way out.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
And I'm like your child has a better chance of
becoming an accountant, a doctor, a lawyer than they do, of
getting in the NFL bud, okay,but the dreams I always say hope
is a very powerful thing.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And they hope that their kid's the one, that's the
kid that's going to be PatrickMahomes.
You know and you're right, thechances are so slim they're not
even chances, I think you couldprobably buy a lottery ticket,
almost have a better chance.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's like don't stop, you know wasting your kids
future.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Easy to me that people I have.
My youngest plays baseball andhe is very, very good.
I have zero thought that hewill play in college and he's
like a very good baseball player.
I just don't understand.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
You know the odds.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah, the odds are so slim, and even Justin's odds.
He was drafted 298 out of 300people.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
He played defense in college and he was a test for
Chuck Knoll.
Chuck Knoll wanted to see if hecould take a D lineman and turn
him into an O lineman.
He shouldn't have made it ayear but he did.
I mean his odds were just amiracle of all miracles for him,
but he was.
(39:05):
You know, he was like go backto just naturally talented, you
know, for six foot six, 300pounds.
When he skied down a mountainhe made it look graceful.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
He did.
It was crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
He was a good dancer, he just was just had that
talent and I think that you knowsome kids have that and those
are the kids we see that make itand they're just, they're far
and few between.
There's so many kids playingfootball today and all the other
sports.
And to go back, earlier youwere saying like it is important
for our kids to be in organizedsports.
Right, it teaches themsomething.
(39:39):
I really believe that you knowand the camaraderie with your
friends and the respect for yourcoaches and your peers that can
be taught with flag football.
It does not have to be tackleand I'm hoping with flag
football going into the Olympicspeople will be a little more
like, oh, flag football is cool.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
It's got to be cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Because I mean, that is, I don't know about your
school.
Our high school football is nocut, so anyone can join the team
.
Oh, okay, yeah.
School football is no cut, soanyone can join the team.
Oh, okay, yeah, so our our inpennsylvania.
Each high school has to havetwo no-cut sports.
Ours is indoor track andfootball.
So there are kids that play dayin, day out and practice every
(40:21):
day that don't even see thefield.
I think Justin's year there was65 kids on the team.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And it's a big deal on Friday to wear your jersey to
school right Heck.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, it's cool.
That's why they join man.
Yeah, absolutely.
That is why they join Right,yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
No other baseball doesn't do that, hockey doesn't
do that.
You walk in the volunteer roomon friday with your jersey on,
you are special and that's justhow it is, and you know so.
There are kids, like I said, inour district that will never
see the field, but they stillpractice and they're still
getting some hit.
I'm you know, I'm sure somehits in practice, even though
(41:00):
our high school cut back.
Just because they didn't startdoesn't mean they're not going
to end up with a problem, andthey all played youth football
at some point, so they weredefinitely hitting when they
were young.
Does your school not do no-cut?
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Well, on the school that Mac played on, it was a
private school and we were asmall school.
We were like Division 5 out of5.
We had to travel.
We're not a Division 1.
We had to go play the farmteams right out there.
We weren't allowed to play thepublic school system.
It was kind of weird.
We wrestled against them,because Mac was a wrestler and a
(41:37):
football player, but we didn'tplay against them.
It was something about the sizeof our team.
So we took anybody, we took allthe homeschool kids and we had
an awesome coach.
God, I love this guy to thisday.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I mean Mac's departure, you know really, but
he's an amazing guy, that'simportant the coach, the coach
that has experience, because alot of these youth kids you're
saying you love that coach, likeour high school coach.
He's phenomenal.
He's been at this for 20 plusyears and he's just wonderful,
(42:13):
but you have dads teaching atthe youth level.
That shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
They all think they're Chuck Knoll, Bill
Belichick, right?
Yes?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And yeah, it's just I's.
I mean my son.
When he played in sixth grade,his coach was just a crazy dad
and you need coaches withexperience and coaches you trust
and I, I think I believe ourhigh school coach was, is still
he's still there is amazing.
If you had a problem and youwent to him, he sincerely
(42:45):
listened to you.
When Justin played by his senioryear, I went to him and I was
like, just because, knowing atthis point we know, ct happened
and I said, would it be okay Iwent to the athletic director
and the coach if I bought Justinhis own helmet, and just for me
to feel better as a parent, andthey said yes, absolutely.
And just for me to feel betteras a parent, and they said yes,
(43:06):
absolutely.
So you know, I think when youhave experienced coaches, that
will sit and listen to you,that's important, that's really
important as a parent, and Ithink that you can, if you can,
have a conversation with themabout your concerns, I think
they really do take that intoconsideration and that's
probably one of the reasons ourhigh school cut back on, you
(43:29):
know, every day tackle.
They don't, they don't, theydon't do it every day in
practice.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
They are getting smarter.
I know that the coach thatreplaced the coach that we love
we love him too he they havereduced contact by over 60% now
they they've stopped.
They're doing a lot of drills.
You know, and we've been, we'vebeen talking, you know us in
the school.
I'm actually doing a video forthem and for the parents right
(43:53):
now to be aware of this issue,because you know you can even
though our school is not con,you know practicing contact you
like, to your point.
If they're playing on the, onthe public school, on the public
team or one of the for profitleagues, nobody's going to stop
that crazy dad from thinkingit's okay to start smacking each
other, right.
(44:13):
So as long as parents are awareof RHI as an issue, then they
can make better decisions aboutyou know what you know?
One sport and that's it for therest of the year.
You're going to play baseball.
You're going to playtiddlywinks.
I don't care what you play,you're not playing, you know,
and that's.
You know, my son, heck, I wasso proud of him.
I told him just before he diedI'm like son, I'm so proud of
you, he goes why?
I said, dude, I'm the only twosport parent in school, you're
(44:37):
the only wrestling football guy.
And here I am all proud of myboy, some kid, you know.
And then you know, three weekslater he's not around and I'm
just, you know, and I'mencouraging him, right, and I'm
like, because I'm so, I have noidea, even though semi-pro rugby
player massive concussions,knockouts on the field all the
(44:57):
time got my own issues and I'mout here, you know, unknowingly,
you know, you know so it's not,not fault, I mean.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
so many parents are like that.
We're 6A, our school, which isthe biggest Wow, you got six
(45:26):
very few two-sport athletes comeout of our school district
because it's so competitive andit's so hard to do that because
most sports, football included,they're year-round.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, that's the other issue.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Our team starts training I mean just weight
training in January, mid-january, and most of the time, and even
this year, they went to states,so that doesn't end until
Christmastime, and by the end ofJanuary they're backuary, and
most of the time, and even thisyear, they went to States, so
that doesn't end until Christmastime, and by the end of January
they're back in the weight room.
It is, it is, and baseball isthe same way.
My son does travel baseball inthe summer, he does indoor
training in the winter and he'sback at school in the spring.
(46:00):
So it's very hard to be atwo-sport athlete.
So for Mac, that's amazing, itreally is.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, if you would have picked one of them, that
would have been a lot better.
But here we are, but my husband, my husband, my husband now.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
He wrestled and played football and baseball A
little smaller school.
Sometimes it's hard to pick onewhen you have your peers and
your parents saying how proud,how awesome, look at you and you
know that's.
That's hard to quit and he justwanted to be with the guys you
(46:36):
know you.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
So you mentioned why sports.
He played these sports to bewith his friends.
I mean, he was good.
He wasn't going to go play incollege, like you said, but he
was good and he had fun and allthat stuff.
And that's our point is thatyou know he should be here and
Justin should be here andeverybody we know that's going
(46:57):
through this tragedy.
Karen's son, patrick, should behere.
If we would pay attention tothis issue and make you know
better decisions, informeddecisions and better public
policy.
And we think that you know byyou know mandating that you know
practices one week, you stillpractice one day a week.
You know, okay, leave, save itfor game day.
You can't take a practice out ofthe game and then flag till 14.
(47:20):
And then one sport.
Like you said, you can't playfootball year round.
It's not healthy.
You know, you don't allow yourkid to eat at mcdonald's every
darn day or drink soda break.
Give them, give them a break.
Give the break the only thingthey have.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
That's going to determine who they are, and I
think you know a lot of fear isand I I know this is that well,
if my kid doesn't, he's notgonna, if he doesn't work out
all year round, he's not gonnabe on't, he's not going to.
If he doesn't work out all yearround, he's not going to be on
the team, he's not going to,he's not going to play, he's not
going to see playing time.
And he will if he's talentedenough, he will he will.
(47:58):
I mean, you know, but I mean,but it also comes from the top.
You have NFL players that playhurt.
They play sick.
Justin played a whole game withsepsis and I had to take him
straight to the hospital afterand he was on an IV drip for
five days at our home and thenturned around and left and went
(48:20):
to Kansas on Saturday and wasback on that field.
He had sepsis and he still didnot miss a game.
I mean, that's.
That's the kind of culture itis, though, unfortunately, um, I
had two.
I had two.
Both our children were were duein January, and I hear this all
the time.
So-and-so's wife just gavebirth and he's on the field
(48:42):
today.
I had inductions because at thetime the Steelers were going so
far into the playoffs, I hadinductions planned if they made
it to the Super Bowl.
So you don't miss.
I mean you just don't miss.
And that's the kind of culture,it is right, and so it trickles
down to the colleges, the highschools, the middle schools.
(49:02):
You know, if you miss someone,there's always somebody better
to take your spot, and that's,that's a fear that that kids
have, um, probably mainly fromwhat they hear.
You know, even on TV, watchingan NFL game, you know he's back
out there and he was in thehospital last week and he's, you
know, playing through a hurtankle and it's that push, push,
(49:22):
push, push, push, push, push.
And it shouldn't be like that.
Unfortunately it is.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Got to let our kids be good kids.
And yeah, it's not aboutwinning.
Sports are great.
It's about camaraderie, loyalty.
The physical part is all abouthaving fun.
Sports should not hurt ourchildren, I think, and shouldn't
hurt our adults either.
I think we're gonna we're gonnamake a lot of positive gain
(49:49):
there this year.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I hope, I hope so.
I really do ever.
I'm just waiting for the day wecan bring it a little easier,
knowing that the youth that Ialways focus, that the youth
would just quit tackle that.
That would be such a greatstart yeah it's really hard to
watch.
I don't.
There's, there's no purpose forthe tackling for six year old,
(50:15):
seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven,twelve.
Let them grow, let them lettheir brains grow, let their
brains, their brains are stillgrowing and that's it.
Like you said, you wouldn'tfeed the the McDonald's every
day.
Why are you letting them dothis?
And some parents?
Well, it's only just in thefall and that's enough for me,
right, as a parent, but that'sme.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
No, it's, it's, it's.
I think we're coming to thatday Kina.
Well, we're going to be able todo that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
I believe you.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
I am pushing you and I know you and Karen have been
pushing it together.
We're going to get this oneover the line.
I think the time's right and Ithink people are willing to
listen.
I mean, football attendance wasdown this year, football
participation's down, and I talkto these younger generations.
They don't even care aboutfootball, which is like what.
They go I don't watch football,I'm like you don't, yeah, and
(51:10):
so football needs to get aheadof this.
They need to start reaching outand I think if they could
actually make the move and I'mtrying to talk to a couple NFL
owners right now say, look, ifyou actually own this and you
threw Pop Warner under the busand just knocked that and made
(51:31):
it all flag and recommendedthese changes and promoted brain
safety and brain health, notconcussion safety we could make
brain health a priority.
Oh my gosh, you could save thesport.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
And you think that they would jump all over that
because they would look likereally good guys, right they?
Speaker 1 (51:44):
would yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
You know, I mean the optics, for that would actually
probably bring kids back to play.
They've lost a lot of youth,right, I mean?
And I know they put the moneybehind Pop Warner.
So you know, if they startedthat trend, I think they would
see an increase in youth playingflag and let them decide later
(52:11):
in life if they want to continuewith tackle.
I mean, that's such ano-brainer to me as an owner, as
an NFL owner, just because Iwould look really good, because
right now they're not lookingtoo great, you know.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
No, and the longer this goes on you know.
Why did you shorten the kickoffdistances?
Why do you wear those hats?
You're admitting that you havea problem.
You haven't said it yet.
But when society startsunderstanding that you've known
about this for a long time?
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Oh, so long, and you didn't make these changes.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
They're going to eat your lunch man so long.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, you're going to see a lot of change.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
They're going to figure out how to get in that
pocketbook, and then you'regoing to be hurt, man, and so,
yeah, it's very true.
Well, keena, as we close out,talk to us a little bit about
you know where can they find youor your story?
Or you know, in stopcteorg,where can they go to you, know,
learn more about this.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Stopcteorg that is.
Stopcteorg is the mainorganization that I work with.
You know, if anybody ever wantsto get a hold of me, karen will
forward me emails or contactsthat have questions.
Right now is working withStopCTorg on stopping the youth
(53:29):
tackle, getting parents educatedat that level, getting them
educated early and often so thatthey know what we know, because
unfortunately, a very highpercentage of parents that are
letting their kids do the youthtackle don't know, but we want
to give them as much information.
Go to the website there's somuch information there, as I'm
(53:52):
sure there is on your websitethat you can start to this
conversation, whether it be withyour husband or your
significant other or your child,or just within your own inner
self, like is this what I reallywant for my child?
I think you really need to.
There are times in your life asa parent, as a mother,
specifically, you really need totake a stand, and this is
(54:14):
probably the biggest one to meis your child's brain health,
their safety.
They're still growing.
Go to stopctorg, read about itand help us spread the word.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Really, stopctorg, read about it and help us spread
the word.
Really Well, kena, thank you somuch for your time today.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
You are an amazing spokesman on this issue.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
And I think your clarity, your experience and
your guidance are going to helpus all make sports safer and
protect these children.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
I hope so.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yep, we'll get it.
Well, we're starting thisjourney and we're going.
You know we're going to make ithappen, but thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
I'm here for you, whatever you need.
You know where to find me?
Oh, we'll find you.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
We're going to see you at the conference in.
September.
Speaking of which you knowthey'll always close out.
Remember, we got a free book.
It's on our website.
It's on our website.
Go get it.
Stopctorg Endorse this.
They said every parent shouldread this book.
I didn't write it for nothing,so go get the book and get on
there.
We got the Town Hall forVeterans on the 28th of March.
(55:13):
That's going to be a great time.
We're going to talk aboutrepetitive blast exposure,
mental health and how to getcoverage from the VA.
We're going to be doing datepretty soon.
That's going to be an openseminar.
Whether you played in college,whether you played in the NFL or
you played as a youth andyou're having issues you know
somebody has done, come get theinformation you need to take
(55:33):
better care of them.
There's a lot of hope out therethat we're not even talking
about.
And our second annual conferenceon repetitive brain trauma the
only one in the world it canhelp in conjunction with
StopCTorg and Keena and Karen,will be the September 3rd and
4th this year.
We can't wait to see you allthere.
Here in Tampa, we only have somany seats.
We better start jumping on now.
(55:54):
Amazing panel speakers comingup, but thank you all.
So much, keena.
To you, karen StopCTorg.
Thank you for your time andwe'll see you all in the next
episode of Broken Brains.
Take care, have a great one,thank you.
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