Traumatic Brain Injury and Recovery: Stephanie Rimroth's Groundbreaking Insights

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey folks, welcome to another edition of our podcast,
Broken Brains, with yours trulyBruce Parkman, where we look at
the issue of repetitive headtrauma and what it's doing to
our soldiers and athletes in theform of repetitive head impacts
and repetitive blast exposure,and the ongoing epidemic of
mental illness that's resultingfrom the damage to these

(00:33):
children's, athletes' andveterans' brains, and what we
have to do as a society toprepare ourselves and do a
better job to take care of thesepeople, to reach out across the
universe of brain researchersand scientists and patients and
advocates, to find people outthere that can tell you stories
and make you aware, because thisis a widely unknown phenomenon

(00:54):
and we need to be aware of thisgiven the impact on us.
And anyways, today, anotheramazing guest.
I'm going to put on my glassesso I can read her bio.
It's awesome.
I'm going to put on my glassesso I can read her bio.
It's awesome.
Stephanie Rimroth is anactive-duty speech-language
pathologist in the United StatesPublic Health Service Corps at
Eglin Air Force Base, home ofthe mighty 7th Special Forces
Group.
She specializes in traumaticbrain injury and predominantly

(01:17):
works with 7th Special ForcesGroup, ASSOC PJs and combat
controllers, as well as EOD andNavy divers out of Panama City
Beach massive and wonderfulfacility to run out of there,
targeting cognitive andcommunication changes that occur
after they've been affected byTBIs and repetitive blast
exposure.
She's practiced as a speechlanguage pathologist for 16

(01:41):
years, working with TBI andacute care, acute rehab and
outpatient, and most recently atthe Eglin Intrepid Spirit
Center as a contractor for twoand a half years and at the main
hospital as well.
She's married to a Green Beretabsolutely the best people in
special operations.
So are your Navy SEALs.
Love you guys, though, and sheunderstands the importance of
advocacy and quality medicaltreatment on behalf of soft

(02:04):
professions.
This is going to be an amazingshow and, Stephanie, thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Tell us, how did you get intoall this?
I mean, what got you started onthis path?

Speaker 2 (02:13):
First off, thank you for having me.
It's an absolute pleasure to behere and speak about what I
love.
Honestly, how I got here wasfiguring out what I didn't like.
I ended up in an acute rehabhospital.
I'll be back up.
I was tired of shoveling snowin New Jersey.
I was tired of it.
I didn't know much about what Iwanted to do.
It was about 15 years ago.
I was a new speech pathologist.
All I knew was I wanted to besomewhere warm and I applied to

(02:34):
a job in Hawaii and I got hiredand yeah, and it's nice and warm
.
I had an uncle out here.
So I came to Hawaii andinitially they put me on the
spinal cord injury floor andalthough I loved the work I was
doing and I gosh, I had some ofthe most passionate clinicians
working side by side with me itwas really hard to see people
that some of the spinal cordinjuries I'd have to tell them

(02:55):
daily.
You know they were also TBIsometimes.
But I'd have to tell themcertain things weren't going to
get better.
We were working on compensationmore than we were working on
restoration and I couldn'tstomach that.
I just didn't.
But then I'd see these TBIs andI'd go, ooh, like there's hope
there's, they can get better,you know.
And so I fell in love with theidea that the brain is
neuroplastic and that you know,we can make changes consistently

(03:17):
and you see neuroplasticity upto the age of 90 sometimes and I
love the hope that thatpatients, that I could give
those patients daily.
And then I don't know if you'veever heard of Dr Mark Ashley.
He runs the Center forNeuroskills.
He came down to do a talk onmild TBI and I fell in love.

(03:37):
I fell in love with the idea ofwhat it was.
I fell in love with the factthat there was so again this 15
years ago.
There was less known about itthen than there is now and I
just loved the idea that thiswas an up and coming area for
clinicians to grow and forpatients to get better.
And so I became the TBI girl andI applied for the TBI lead
position and I served in thatposition for about three years
at that hospital, which is whereI met my husband.
And I met my husband two weeksbefore he left for selection.

(04:00):
So I knew happy artilleryofficer Matt, who was serving as
an SFO, who is having a blastliving life as a young, you know
, army Lieutenant in that youknow, in Hawaii, and then I got
to see what selection did to him, and then I got to see what
airborne school did to him andslowly my love for TBI and my

(04:21):
love for him transformed intoI'm watching him break down
little by little, mentally,physically, cognitively, and it.
It really kind of puteverything into perspective for
me that this is where my focusneeded to be, that he had an
advantage that he had me at home.
I watched from the beginning, Isaw who he was, I saw what this
is making him become and I wasable after, you know, we spent

(04:45):
two years while he was at thecourse at Fort Bragg and then,
you know again, I'm a warmweather person, so threatened
him to have to geo bachelor hiswhole life if he chose a cold
place.
But we ended up at seventh groupbecause I spoke to him I said
you pick Kentucky or Fort Braggand I'm telling you you're going
to geo bachelor the rest ofyour life.
So, we ended up coming down toseventh group.

(05:06):
I got hired at the EglinIntrepid Spirit Center about a
year and a half two years afterI.
We came down there and again Ifell in love with the idea that
we had this interdisciplinarymodel of how to work with these
patients, that to watch theireyes open.
When you tell them, I believeyou that there's something wrong
.
I understand, I know, I don'tsee it on your face and for me,

(05:28):
bringing awareness to them whattheir brain is doing, explaining
to them the mechanisms.
And you know, you know, asbeing part of this population,
you don't want to just know whatto do, you want to know why.
You want to know what'shappening, what, what is wrong
with me.
And don't just tell me becauseI look fine, I'm fine.
Be honest with me.
And don't just tell me becauseI look fine, I'm fine, Be honest
with me, you know.
And so having that, being ableto have those frank

(05:48):
conversations with them andbeing embedded in the community,
brought me where I'm at today.
I met my now supervisor, DrThomas, who is probably one of
the most brilliant minds I'vemet in brain injury medicine.
He did his fellowship atKessler.
We had a great foundation andhe.
We were able to get the activeduty billet for me to just move
laterally to work under him atin the Eglin Neurology Clinic

(06:10):
and I've been there two and ahalf years and it's it's been
the greatest job of my life.
I love what I do, I love thecommunity I serve and every day
I learn from people, they learnfrom me and I just.
It's been such a rewardingexperience.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well, good for you, man, and I and I really
appreciate what you're doing forour veterans and anybody you
come across.
And and let's talk about TBI,because you know, TBIs are
events and there's no doubt thatthey impact a soldier, whether
it's, you know, hitting his headon a parachute landing, fall
side of a vehicle getting out,or, you know, mma you know
everybody's got those octagonsnow.
But when it comes down to youknow that, do these?

(06:48):
You know, obviously thesesoldiers are showing up with a
head injury.
What about repetitive blastexposure?
What are you currently lookingat in that area in terms of
assessments or diagnosing theseindividuals?
You know, how are you gettingthere?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'm glad you asked that, because another thing
about this population is we aretaking the top 1% of people and
then taking tests that arenormed on not the top 1% you
know and then telling them look,you scored normal, you're fine,
and sending them out the door.
And so, honestly, a lot oftimes I find a lot of the

(07:25):
standardized testing does notcapture their true deficits.
It doesn't capture how this isaffecting them in their daily
lives.
So a lot of my testing I usemethods that are subjective.
There's a lot of kind ofquestion answer type subjective
tests.
The SAIDI is one of them.
It's a test of inventory ofdeficits and some of the ways,
because I don't want to knowwhat the test is telling me.

(07:48):
You can hunker down for 30minutes and do everything really
well and get this great testscore.
What the test you know theperson administering the test
doesn't see is the three-daymigraine you have after, the
irritability you go home withafter that because you gave
everything you had for threedays into that 30 minutes.
You have the capacity to dothat.
It's what you guys have beentrained to do, but nobody sees

(08:08):
the aftermath, and I thinkthat's where I also have the
advantage of.
I get to see it when I comehome.
I see the aftermath of whathappens when my husband has to
go at something for way too long, that he needed a brain break,
you know.
So, anyway, to go back to yourquestion, a lot of it is just
subjective symptoms and I waslistening to some of your prior
episodes.
The physician that you, thePM&R doc, that you spoke with in
one of your first sessions,talked about memory being the

(08:30):
second biggest complaint, nextto migraines, and I will agree
with that.
It's one of the areas and a lotof people you know, like the
art therapy.
They come to speech and they go.
I talk fine.
Why am I here?
I'm like how's your memoryTerrible?
How's your memory terrible?
How's your focus terrible?
How you know, how is your wordfinding god awful?
That's why you're here.
You're here because I'm here towork on these areas with you,

(08:51):
and so a lot of times, by byjust a lot of question and
answer, I can kind of see how isthis affecting them in their
everyday life and what can we doto mitigate some deficits, as
well as work under therestoration process and, as I
said earlier, a lot of it'sawareness, a lot of it's helping
them understand the mechanisms.
Initially, this is a populationthat's very used to.
You see it, you hear it, youknow it, you move on.

(09:12):
You don't need to processanything.
You don't have to put effortinto processing.
It would just happen.
Well, post-tbi, post-anxietystress, ptsd, when all these
things come into play.
They hear things, and I alwaysuse the example If your wife
were to ask you to pick upcheese on the way home, how are
you going to remember thatcheese?
No, probably not.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
What it's not.
I'm in trouble, man.
I'm getting cheese, you know.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
But how many times if on the way out the door you get
a text that you know soldier'sin trouble or something's going
on.
What happened to the cheesetrouble or something's going on,
what happened to the cheese Inone ear and out the other.
So I always explain to themthat if your brain is not in the
state to receive thatinformation, if your system is
upregulated, you're really notprocessing things in the part of
your brain that we need you toprocess them.
And can you?
I mean, when did you go toremember back to selection and

(09:59):
SUT and all these things?
What do they teach you to do?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
They teach you there was no SUT then there was no
select when I went through it.
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Okay, what do they teach you?
They teach you to get into anupregulated state, get into your
subcortex and work well there.
When you're doing a drill inthe shoot house, when you're
doing Sephalic or all thesedifferent drills, they're not
looking for you to cognitivelyprocess your next move.
They're looking for reaction.
They're looking for you to beable to manage your heart rate,
manage the shaking in your handsand perform.

(10:29):
But that's not the part of yourbrain you need to be in to
remember cheese on the way homefrom the grocery store or as you
move up in rank and it becomesmore administrative and less
operational roles.
How do you then sit there andwork on manning and budgeting
and the aspects of it that youwere not trained for in the
course?
So that's a lot of what I breakdown and work on with these

(10:49):
guys.
I sit there and I'll talk tothem about where I'll teach them
where they're at in their brain.
I love there's an activity Ilove to do where I'll do a quick
card game and I'll get themfired up and I'll get them going
and then I'll stop them and goname three things that are blue
and they're like blue, blue,blue.

(11:10):
I don't know what's blue?
How can I not think?
And they get real frustratedand I say you know, take a
second, okay, and then all of asudden 10 things come out.
How come I couldn't do that Ifyou're not in the part of your
brain where your cortex is,where your word finding is?
You know, if you can't get toyour dictionary, I don't care if
blue is the easiest questionI've ever asked you in your life
.
You're not in the part of yourbrain to process that.
So then we'll go back to theactivity they're like.
But now I'm slow.
I'm like because you'rethinking too much.

(11:30):
You know that shift betweenthat automatic subcortical type
fight flight, freeze movementversus I'm cognitively
processing her question, I'mgiving a good answer.
And to teach them to manuallyshift, not just automatically go
into that when they get upregulated, that's something that
I find, yeah, a lot of peoplelack and it's super important

(11:50):
because, again, once we move upin rank and they move up in
roles, well, you can no longerjust process in your subcortex
and get through the day that way.
You know, my favorite questionis when they go.
I go from zero to 60 so fastand I look at them and I say
when the hell was the last timeyou.
You go from 50 to 60 fast, butyou live at 50.

(12:11):
No wonder you don't sleep, nowonder you don't downregulate,
no wonder you're irritable athome or at work.
We've got to figure out how tostart getting you back to zero
and helping you understand whereyou're at in your brain.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Now what happens when you know, like in the terms of
TBI but more importantly, rbe,where the brain is damaged?
Okay, the brain is damaged andwe know that impulsivity,
aggression, you know a lot ofyour executive functioning all
comes from here, and this incontact sports takes a lot of
damage.
But you know there's RBE, right, it's coming through the whole

(12:44):
brain, it's coming through theair and all that.
So are you conducting any teststo assess them for the amount
of blast exposure they've hadwhile you're working with them?
If they come to you with memoryloss, like I've got horrible
memory, it's improving.
But you know, memory loss,impulsivity, a lot of these
things that these guys aredealing with, that might be

(13:05):
because of their lifestyle,which is right.
Yeah, we run a 50, you know it'sall drinking girls and blowing
shit up, I got it.
But there's also, you know'sall drinking girls and blowing
shit up, I got it.
But there's also, you know thethe the impact of their careers
physiologically on the plane,right?
What are you seeing that nowand the people you're addressing
and how are you diagnosing?

Speaker 2 (13:23):
so with that again it's.
It's unfortunately and you knowthis, with mild tbi it's very
subjective, there's not a lot ofimaging, there's not a lot of
imaging, there's not a lot oftesting, but I do.
That's the next conversation isyou manage this well, and then
the TBI started and then thehard landings compounded.
So maybe this was always theirpersonality, maybe this was sort
of.
But now with the TBIs you can'tcontrol the aggression, you

(13:45):
can't control the, you know, youcan't get to sleep, no matter
what you try and do.
And that's where I feel likethere's that extra facet of
injury that then you know, wealready had certain aspects of
things that might have been whatdrove them into this career,
but the injury is now what'sdebilitating them, that's what's
keeping them from being assuccessful as they want to be

(14:05):
moving forward.
I mean, like I said, we havethe top 1% of people physically,
cognitively, mentally, goinginto this career.
But you know what I mean,that's not what they trained to
do and that's not what they aretrying to move forward and do,
and so it's.
It's really hard for them tothen come in and you know, to
personality wise, it's reallyhard to ask for help, it's hard

(14:25):
to say in a group of alpha males.
I'm having trouble.
I'm having trouble remembering.
I missed that brief, notbecause I got stuck somewhere
else, because I totally forgotabout it.
All the excuses in the worldand I just totally forgot.
And you know, that's when theyfinally.
You know, I'm trying to getpatients in younger.
I'm trying to get the guys inat 10 years that want to do
another 10.
Because if we can pave ahighway early, we can fix

(14:47):
potholes easier later, ratherthan trying to pave a dirt road
at 20 years.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
You know that's a good point.
No, I mean it's.
I like that saying it's.
You know, the issue is when,when you're seeing them, they've
already been impacted.
Now you can.
You know, I want to finish my20, I got careers they don't
want to talk and you are.
You're dealing with a veryclosed segment of population
where you know, even thoughwe've done a lot and I'm, you

(15:11):
know, I very cognitive of whatUSOCOM is doing for brain health
.
Nobody's prioritized brainhealth more than USOCOM.
Yes, and so you know the.
You know, but you know they canonly impact the active duty
population, the folks that cansee it.
So when they come to you and wenow know they're and we could
talk offline about scans, areyou doing any blast aggregation

(15:36):
like GBEV or MBEV?

Speaker 2 (15:37):
We don't have any of those capabilities.
Unfortunately, the funding it'sa funding thing.
We don't have the type ofcapabilities, and part of it,
too, is there are limits towhat's technically.
You know, soldiers don't wantto be in studies like that
Because if they go over acertain limit is that going to
put them behind a desk, you know.
So it's hard to get the peopleto want to participate and get
those studies done if it's goingto limit them, because now

(16:00):
we're seeing things they don'twant us to know they have.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
You know that's a good point now, because those
are simple calculations.
But once those numbers get high, you know, the issue is how do
you prep these guys to go backafter they're done and get the
treatment that they deserve,right?
And that's one of the things,as a foundation, that we're
working on now.
But you know you, you know it's, it's it's getting them in and

(16:22):
then for treatments I mean, ifyou, if you have it, if you have
a guy that's in your order,right, that's been running a lot
, it's got a, it's got a historyof tbi or mt you know what are
you doing for treatment.
Are you doing anything out ofthe box now?
What do you got in your toolboxto help these guys?

Speaker 2 (16:41):
out.
So some of the, a lot of it, Iam more strategy based than I am
activity based.
I find that, again, salience isreally important.
So if I'm just if I'm tellingsomeone, I need your memory to
get better, I need you to attendlonger to process.
I'm going to give themstrategies.
I'm going to say, as you'rehaving a conversation with your
wife, visualize what you'retalking about, elaborate on it.
Don't just say yes, I'll getthe cheese, I'll get the cheese

(17:02):
on the way home.
I have to pass Publix, it's onmy way.
Make go further Outside of thebox.
There are some modalities weuse.
So I know I'm not sure ifanybody has spoken about a
modality alpha stem.
Alpha stem is one of the wayswe they work on down regulating
the brain they were just, uh,not approved by va for veterans,
no, okay.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
well, I had a conversation with a lady and she
was so pissed off becauseveterans would come there and
these alpha stem devices andexplain what they are to our,
our viewers, um, and all of asudden, bam, she couldn't she
couldn't re, you know, prescribethem anymore to guys.
And she's had amazing resultswith those things Tell our

(17:43):
viewership.
What the, what those devicesare.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's a cranial device .
It's a transcranial device.
You put um ear clips on, or Imean, there there is, there is
probes for pain as well, but inthe tbi realm of things, we'll
keep it there.
Right now, uh, you put earclips on.
The best way I like to describealpha stem is um, because I'm
an analogy person.
I like to.
I like stories that people cango home with.
So if I were to tell you, Ineed you to get the shoes out of

(18:07):
my car, and all I hand you is akey I don't give you a make, a
model, I don't give you anything.
You have to jam that key inevery lock in order to try and
turn one of the locks that willfinally click.
We'll see which one.
We're going to get there.
We're going to get there.
We're going to jam it in everylock.
That's what a medication does.
Hey, we're targeting anxiety.
We're going to give you thismed anxiety.

(18:33):
Alpha stim is the fob.
Alpha stim is I'm going to pusha button, I'm going to put a
signal through your brain andthe areas that need to create
balance will find balancethrough that signal.
So, although all the cars inthat parking lot are going to
feel that signal, only one caris going to open because there's
only one car that's receptiveand needs that signal at that
moment.
So alpha stim is very similar.
Instead of a medication thathas to be jammed in and has to,

(18:56):
you know, there's side effectsIs it even effective by the time
it hits the right receptor?
Alpha stim is going to send asignal to all the cars in the
parking lot, but only the carthat needs it.
So the reason that's importantto understand is because it can
help anxiety and depression.
Well, how One needs upper, oneneeds a downer, right.
So if, but if you createbalance, if you think of it as
creating balance, it's going tohelp anxiety and if someone
who's anxious come down, it'sgoing to help someone who's

(19:16):
depressed.
Maybe get a little kick andcome up a little bit, it's going
to downregulate pain, right.
So we are going to then feelbetter.
We're going to be either morealert or we're going to be a
little less anxious.
It is a phenomenal tool anduntil 3-6-24, it was also I
prescribed them in the, in thehospital as well, for active
duty patients.

(19:36):
As of last March, as of last, Iprobably in the course of a
couple of years, prescribed over200 of them.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
For active duty.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
So that's my, if you want, out of the box it is, and
the most important part about itis creating that balance in the
system allows the system to bereceptive to healing.
A lot of time, because of theupregulation whether it's
through injury or just throughanxiety or through whatever the
cause is, or accumulation of allof it the brain is not in a
state to heal.

(20:02):
It is in fight-flight freeze.
Injury can cause that, ptsd cancause that.
If you are in fight-flightfreeze, your body is not
focusing on healing at all.
It's not even focusing onfeeling pain.
All it's focusing on is gettingthrough the next, whatever
exercise step, whatever it is.
How do we fix that?
Well, we need to downregulateand let the brain be in a state
where it can then say okay, I'mnot running a rat race right now

(20:26):
, I can actually take someenergy and focus on healing.
So an example I always give myguys is why do we have so many
40-year-olds with double hipreplacements?
Yes, the work they do is hard,the impacts are hard, but if the
body's not healing, what was it?
Impingement or some minorinjury?
All of a sudden, three yearslater, it's bone on bone.
We're keeping people inbusiness doing hip surgeries on

(20:47):
these young guys.
And it's the same thing withthe brain people aren't getting
better because their brain's notin the state it needs that
equilibrium it needs to find andthat
parasympathetic-sympatheticbalance to allow for healing to
occur, to the extent that weneed it for them to move forward
.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
So let's talk about this for a second because, like
you know, alphastem is a prettyinnovative approach and you know
we are very well aware that theamount of prescription drugs
that are prescribed active dutyand veteran populations right
now is absolutely to the roof.
And it is the first course ofaction, you know.
So now you've got a guy or agirl who's been a lot, who's

(21:24):
been hitting the head, who's gotissues, and they come into the
TMC and they finally get up thenerve to admit that they've got
some form of mental illness,right, I mean anxious depression
, panic attacks.
I've had them all.
Trust me, man, I've beenthrough my own journey and they
get up there and then the firstthing is all right, we got a
pill for that.
Well, none of these pills.

(21:45):
I mean, my daughter is a nursepractitioner of psychiatric
medicine and she spends all daygetting children and adults that
either want more drugs or getthem off of them, right, and
these are highly, highlyaddictive.
You know SSRIs, snris, benzos Imean they're given benzos out
as sleeping pills at a militaryfacility.

(22:07):
Can you believe this?
So you are taking an approachtowards brain health that is
necessary because the otherapproach you know when we can
talk about the suicide unchangedrate, right is been, it's just
it doesn't.
Why is?
Why are drugs the first courseof action when we know as a
community they cause?
They's so many?

(22:28):
I mean, all right, suicide,suicidal, you're getting ready
to kill yourself, I got it.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
But for mental health , mental illnesses that can be
treated, you know, innovativeTMS, whatever it is's still
emerging research and there'sjust not enough concrete to
fight these pharmaceuticalcompanies that have all the

(22:56):
money in the world to doresearch and to sway politicians
and to do a lot of things toget their name out there and
their drug as first line ofdefense.
And I think part of it isbecause results can vary, and
unfortunately, when it comes toresearch results, varying is not
a good thing.
So if I put AlphaStem on fivepeople and they all report
different effects, they mightall be great, one might be I'm

(23:19):
less anxious, one might be Ihave less pain, but it looks
like it didn't do the same thingfor everybody.
And how do we-.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
But it had a positive effect.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Agree.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
And that's my point with you know when I talk.
I just wrote draft legislationon making innovative treatments
available, working under the TBIbilling code to get coverage,
and I've got a whole programthat I'm submitting to Congress
right now because we're notdoing enough.
And to your point is that theresearch right now, just from a

(23:53):
population perspective, is 90 to98% positive.
This treatment helped me?
Yeah, you can't.
The brain's all different,right?
We all know this.
Nobody responds to anychemicals this way and in mental
health, according to mydaughter, if you get 25%, you
know it's like the expectedamounts of positive impact when

(24:14):
they even prescribe a drug theydon't even know if it's going to
work.
75% of the time we're over herearguing about cheap electronic
modalities that can scale andbring all this joy and hope, as
you say, to our population.
None of them are available.
We need a pill when the pilldon't work.
Oh, we got a pill for that too.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
We got a different pill, yep and that, or if
there's a side effect, we'llgive you a pill for that.
But I I really think it's goingto happen when we can get more
people trying, more people,researching, more people.
Showing his data is what drivesthe decision making.
There's drives thedecision-making.
Um, there's another modality Iuse all the time that's less
well known, uh, called a dolphinmicrocurrent and, uh, you can

(24:56):
ask Denny offline a little bitabout that, cause that's
actually how we met.
We met with me zapping him withthe dolphins one day.
Uh, but it is almost like a tensunit.
The difference is it usesdirect current instead of
alternating and if you know muchabout the current that runs
through the body, it simulatesokay.
So just for for listeners, incase they're not have no idea

(25:17):
about direct, alternatingcurrent, um, direct current.
If we had a light on and we usedirect current to light this
whole hallway, the last personat the end would have the
dimmest light.
Alternating current allows thatcurrent to stay strong and stay
.
So most tens unit usealternating current to keep that
signal, but the body that's aforeign signal to the body.

(25:37):
So although it's okay for themuscle that you're putting it on
it, it, the heart recognizes itas a foreign, a foreign signal,
and it reacts, which is why youcan't use it with pacemakers
and there's alwayscontraindications.
Um, I don't know if I should goon the record saying this, but
I've used a dolphin two inchesabove my grandmother's pacemaker
and not even a blip on herradar.
Direct current mirrors what thebody already has coursing

(25:59):
through it.
So when you use a directcurrent device, it actually what
I explain to people is like,think about it, like
jumpstarting a car, almost likeif there's an area of um just
energy that's sort of stagnant,which is what happens in
injuries, can we jumpstart that.
And it uses meridians ofacupuncture.
But the advantages for a PT oran OT or speech pathologist who

(26:21):
might not have the background indoing subcutaneous needles you
can use a microcurrent safelywithout hurting anybody.
So I use it all the time.
There's a concussion protocolthat they go to the.
It's one of the courses I tookwhere there is a 90, you do it
between 60 and 90 minutes but uma protocol just using those two
devices on patients and I'veseen great results and it just

(26:42):
helps to kind of get thingsmoving again in order.
You know there's always disorder, whenever there's pain and
injury.
So if we can get the fascia toloosen up, if we can get things
to relax a little bit now, thebrain can do it.
You know, the body isfascinating, it can heal itself.
Why do you think nutrition andhydration and all these things
can make things better?
Because the body has thecapacity to heal.

(27:04):
But if it's in a terrible state, it injured, weak, you know,
lack of sleep if all thesethings are going against it,
it's not not healing, it's notsurviving, it's not thriving,
it's just surviving.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
And if we yeah, my wife would love you because
she's a melt instructor.
She had no fascia, she's got meon these rollers and I'm like,
ah shit, I mean that stuff don'twork right now I carry that
roller around.
I mean, it does man and I am.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
I am a craniosacral therapist and I'm also a
myofascial release therapist, soI tend to the occiput.
I'm always drawn to the occiput.
I do a ton of occipitalreleases.
I do a ton of jaw releases.
When you look at how muchtension people carry in their
temporalis and in their jaw it'sincredible, when you release
some of that, the effect it canhave on just their over the rest

(27:52):
of their day.
You know they walk differently,they talk differently, they
chew differently.
So I love out of the box I am.
I have many times been scoldedfor being almost too much out of
the box because it's not whatresearch wants me to do.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
You know they want you to write what works.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
It's why patients keep coming back.
And you know in this communityit's who you are, it's the name,
it's if you.
Have you been vetted?
Do people know you?
And I get requests from peoplethat say so-and-so and so-and-so
and so-and-so said I had to seeyou.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
And that's the best compliment someone can give
because it means that someoneelse benefited from something I
did for them, and other peoplewill as well, and that's why I
love what I do.
Let's talk about anothermodality stellar ganglion blocks
, sgbs.
Do you prescribe those?
Or I mean, they're very commonin special operations, law
enforcement communities, butI've been through them myself,
you know very, you knowbenefited me, I know.
Do you do you?
Do you prescribe those there,or do you recommend them at a

(28:50):
certain point in therapy whensomething's not working?

Speaker 2 (28:54):
So as a speech pathologist, it's out of my
scope to prescribe it.
But I often educate, I talk tothem and if they need it and if
they're comfortable, I can talkto their behavioral health
provider about why I'm makingthis recommendation.
I can recommend, I just can'tprescribe.
And the reason I tend torecommend it is again what does
it do?
It's a manual down regulator.

(29:15):
If I can get the brain or getthe body to, I mean, it calms
everything.
If I can get them to calm down.
Now they're going to sit intheir behavioral health
treatment session and possiblyget further, so they could be a
calmer patient for you.
You know it's not in me, I'm notin behavioral health, but I
tell people all the time ifthere's defense mechanisms and

(29:36):
injury and all this stuff that'sgetting in the way of you
making progress, let's mitigatesome of that so you can go 10
times as far in three monthsthan you would have got if you
were had your guard up and youwere.
You know it kind of reduces alot of that.
I am absolutely a hundredpercent for it.
I have never had a patient themost adverse effect I've had
from a patient just based ontheir what they've said to me is

(29:59):
just only lasting a shortamount of time and that's not
even adverse, it's just.
I've had some people say itnever lasted more than a day
that affected.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, I mean I had done a couple of years ago and I
know the doctor that I went todoes not recommend he's got a
whole nother one with radiofrequency because he does not
believe in, you know, multipleblocks or you know however you
call it.
But yeah, it's something that'sout there that you know.
I think our viewers shouldcheck out, if you're.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
So I mean go into a little bit.
And then I want to talk aboutthe Intrepid Center, because
they're all fascinating places,sure.
So you know, talk a little bitabout, you know, for our viewers
, if they're listening, you know, or watching, if they're, you
know what kind of symptomsshould they be, you know,
concerned with, if they knowthey've had a history of either
contact sports or repetitivelast exposure, right, what, what

(30:50):
are, you know, some of the youknow symptoms that they might
have that could indicate I mighthave to go get myself checked
up because something right here.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
So you I mean I can go within my scope.
It's going to be the cognitiveareas or speech, sometimes
fluency changes.
People just know yeah, sowithin my scope, I usually the
things I usually educate thephysicians on these are the
things.
If they say this, this is a redflag to send them to speech
therapy, to cognitive therapy,fluency I have a lot of people
that start to stutter.
They'll have TBIs and all of asudden you have these very

(31:23):
well-spoken, eloquent speakersthat have fluency changes and
again, once it starts, itsnowballs.
And then there's, it's almostlike they get so much in their
head that they'll, you know,they can't breathe anymore
because as soon as they get upit starts, you know.
So fluency is one red flag.
Another one is word finding.
You know people that say, again, I'm in the middle of a

(31:45):
conversation and I know the wordand I can see it and I can
describe it and I just can't getthat word out.
And I see that a lot.
And again, as we said earlier,focus processing speed.
I used to be able to write thissit rep in 10 minutes.
Now it's taking me 35.
Why is it taking me so long tosit around down and write a sit
rep or, like I said, the memory.
You know, I can't remember.
I keep forgetting.

(32:05):
I didn't pick my kid upyesterday.
I drove past and just drovepast the school and didn't pick
my kid up.
And they're embarrassed becausethese are people that are doing
high level work, for you know,these are really heavy hitters,
that are people that are againtop 1% of everybody that applied
for these things and they'refailing and it's not a place
they're comfortable.
So any of those would be redflags.

(32:25):
To come to cognitive therapy,Okay.
The other one that I do tellpeople.
You know, vision changesbalance, and they'll always say
my balance is fine.
So do you mind standing up anddoing something for me while
we're talking?
Because I'll tell you the thingI have them do.
Are you comfortable getting upfor a second?
If I have you, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
I do yoga.
What you?

Speaker 2 (32:43):
got.
Okay.
So what I usually ask them todo because it's really hard to
sell the vestibular assessmenteven I sell the vestibular
assessment.
Even I don't do the treatment,it's not in my scope but leave
that chair right there and turnso you're facing me, but that
chair is right there on the sideso you can grab it if need be.
Okay, I want you to put are yougoofy or regular?
If you snowboard or ski likewhen you, ski.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
I'm pretty regular.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
I'm left-handed, do a few things put your strong foot
in front and, as if you weredoing like a drunk test, you
know, like where you have onefoot directly in front of the
other.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
I've done those before.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Okay, so now take your arm off the chair.
Okay, bend your knees and closeyour eyes.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
So we compensate visually for our balance quite
often, and it should be ourvestibular system that's doing
that.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Really.
Yeah, I don't look at a spot inthe wall, I'm on my butt, man.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Exactly Because you're saying yep, that's
exactly it.
You are using your visualsystem to compensate for issues
with the vestibular system.
What are you guys great at?
You guys are amazing atfiguring out how to mitigate it,
because you need to performtomorrow.
You can't wait to go to therapy.
You got to get back in on theteam.
Get back in and exercise, do ittomorrow.
So you find a way, your systemfinds a way.

(34:02):
If I take that vision out of it,what happens?
The vestibular system never gotretrained to do what it needs
to do years later.
So that's where I can say tothem when you go see your
neurologist, please don't forgethow this went and explain to
them that you would like to beassessed by a PT or audiologist
or whoever is available in thatarea, to do vestibular testing

(34:24):
and see if they can get aconcrete objective.
You know and unfortunatelyvestibular treatment tends to be
agitate the system to teach ithow to, so the treatment can be
kind of.
It's hard because you have topiss the system off to retrain
it, but it makes a hugedifference, because what do
people do when they ride bikes?
They look at signs, they run,they're looking at things and

(34:45):
all of a sudden, they're gettingdizzy running.
Why am I getting dizzy running?
Well, these head movements, thestuff they're doing.
They don't realize that as soonas they're shifting their
vision left, right, up down,moving it around, it's setting
their whole system off theirvestibular system can't regulate
that.
So that's yeah, that's a great.
It's a quick little test youcan have anybody do.
I'm not a PT so it's notsomething I would put

(35:06):
objectively in their assessment.
I will just say notedvestibular changes.
Patient noted, you know, andthen recommend they see the
appropriate professional.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
You know it's funny is?
You know, I had my own mentalhealth challenges about two and
a half years ago and had to findmy way back and it got pretty
ugly.
But you know, all of a sudden,out of nowhere, I'd start
stuttering.
Always have no short term.
I get in a conversation likewhat was I talking about?
Yeah, then you know the wholeword search thing, you know, and

(35:37):
you know these are all issuesthat you know.
Now we can, you know, we canadvertise.
Say, look guys, look out forthis stuff, because I've got
buddies.
I played rugby for, you know,years, right, and all my buddies
called me up yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Four years.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
You look like a fly half or a winger or something.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
I was a number eight.
I was the second row to numbereight.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, All right, second row.
Okay, I was a little beefier incollege.
Okay, good on you.
Yeah, we still play.
I mean, I just play bagpipesnow, man, I can't, I've had too
many knocks on the brain butthat's.
You know, these are the kinds of, these are the kinds of things
that our audiences are searchingfor is like all right now, what

(36:15):
do I do?
And then you know we always putout information of other scans
and assessments that together weshould be getting treatment, we
should get better treatment,that treatment that you
prescribe.
But just so you know, out, inmy world, all that's out of
pocket.
Every bit of it is everythingthat you just mentioned that can
help Steli ganglion blocks, youknow.
Alpha stem, you know all thosemodalities are out of pocket for

(36:37):
our veteran population and it'sjust not right.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
It's not okay.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
Not if it was caused by the military service Right,
and that's our point.
So, great education tutorial.
That's awesome.
Tell us about the IntrepidCenter.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
That's actually a perfect segue, because it's one
of the reasons why thatinterdisciplinary model is so
important.
There are things they might sayI'll go to speech but I'm not
ready to do this.
But having thatinterdisciplinary model, I can
do something and then say you doneed to go to PT here.
Look see, this is why I knowyou thought you had no balance
issues.
So having the resources to beable to see PT OT speech.

(37:14):
I watched the show with JackieJones.
When I tell you she is one ofthe most phenomenal art
therapists I've ever met in mylife, so I'm so happy she was
able to be on the show with youI'm going to interview an artist
.
I'm going to go on further andrecommend you interview.

(37:34):
We had a former music therapist,sally Ann, who is one of the
best music probably the bestmusic therapist I've ever worked
with, and I had patients tellme I think she sees through my
soul, you know, like they wereso funny, but understanding how
to use the whole brain and Ithink that's what, when you get
these onesie, twosie therapieswhere you're kind of shifted for
one clinic for this and oneclinic for that, the model, the

(37:56):
NICO model, that intrepid spiritcenter model is it is an
interdisciplinary whole brainmodel.
So Sally Ann and I for examplethe music therapist I might work
on word finding from a veryleft brain perspective.
Let's figure out how to diginto the lexicon, the dictionary
, and get what we need out.
She's going to target itthrough rhythm, music, movement
and get it coming from the right, if we can get the right to

(38:17):
facilitate the left.
Do you ever turn a song off asyou're getting out of a car and
think you know the words untilthe music's gone and all of a
sudden you're mumbling and thereare no more words coming out?

Speaker 1 (38:27):
I don't know the words to the song.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
So I always joke around.
I'm like a lot of times turnthe car off and you're like or
the music goes off in karaokeand you're sitting there with
the mic going oh gosh, come back.
I don't know the words.
Yeah, and it's because you'reusing the right to help the left
.
Think about, even like a streetrappers, what do they ask for?
Drop me a beat right.
With a beat, the words come outand they can flow and they can
get things out.
So that right brain that is sooften turned off in the military

(38:51):
community because it's a veryanalytical, you're a cog in a
wheel.
There's a certain way to dothings.
You follow this rubric.
That part of the brain getsforgotten.
And when you have programs likeart therapy, music therapy, you
can open up a whole new side ofthe brain.
And we all know I mean anybodyin brain health knows the whole
brain is better than half thebrain in any way, shape or form.
So if we can get the wholebrain working together, aren't

(39:18):
we going to do better?
And if we can do that in threemonths or in five weeks in an
IOP where they're doing thisdaily, you know, and in a
setting where this is somethingthat we can see, these
progressive changes.
I mean, I can remember back tomy first left in attention
patient where in four days wegot him to track to midline and
this was a more severe TBI, itwas a car accident years ago.
Track to midline, and this wasa more severe TBI, it was a car
accident years ago.
But seeing that change andknowing that we were able to use

(39:40):
PT doing one thing, I hadspeech.
I had a son talking on theother side.
His son was his favorite personin the world.
He was on that side.
He was going to look for him.
You know, using differentavenues to reach the brain, how
can you fail?
You know it's just the bestmodel out there.
So I think we need more placeslike that and in the community
we have Craig Hospital, we haveShepherd, we have the Center for
Neuroskills, brooks Rehab, wehave these that follow that same

(40:03):
model.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
The resources are just a little bit different when
you're dealing with regularinsurance versus TRICARE, you
know, and the only problem Ihave with the NICO model or any
TBI clinic is that for two,three weeks these guys get
especially out here where I'm atin the civilian world, the real
world, right.
Yeah, these guys on their wayout get three weeks of the best
training, right, and the beststuff they've ever had.
They feel refreshed, and thenthey go to Nebraska or the

(40:31):
mountains of Montana or whatever, and it doesn't scale.
And then they're on their ownand the bad habits come back.
And then, especially in termsof when you have brain damage
and you don't know it, all youknow is you felt better, but you
didn't get assessed.
A lot of these guys now aregetting assessed.
But I think thatmultidisciplinary approach is

(40:52):
awesome, the way it helps people.
I've heard nothing but goodthings about it.
I'm just pushing for scale.
Like you know, this helps youhere when you go back to your.
You've earned.
You've earned this Right.
So how do we make that?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
happen.
So it's one of the reasons whyI'm more strategy based and less
activity based and activitybased as clinician.
Run A strategy is I am going togive you something I want you
to do.
Go, run A strategy is I amgoing to give you something I
want you to do.
Go do it at home.
Go do it at work.
Generalize it to all the otherenvironments you have, so when
I'm gone, you're alreadygeneralizing that, you're
already utilizing it.
If all I'm doing is putting alight board in front of you and

(41:26):
practicing left and right thatway, when you go in the real
world, what simulates that?
It's not salient, necessarily.
It's not the bad activity, butI need to, before they leave,
move to something that's muchmore salient to what they're
doing.
So if I'm working on makingvisual or verbal associations or
working on elaborationtechnique, for example, that's
what I find works very well withthis population, because they

(41:47):
can't just say I'll brief thecommander.
They have to say I'll brief thecommander on Monday, I'll
reserve the room.
You know what I mean?
There's all these steps.
They're very used to having toelaborate on things.
Well, why not do that for thecheese your wife needs, for the
lasagna, instead of saying, yep,I'll get cheese.
Right, I think that's a goodanalogy, but I'm hungry right
now.
So the reason I bring that upis because if their wife says,

(42:10):
hey, don't forget to get cheeseon the way home, they can simply
go Ooh, what are you makingtonight?
And their wife will go I wasgoing to make chicken Parmesan.
I love your chicken parm.
Oh, I'm excited.
Well, guess what?
We just went to 90% failurerate of hearing, only to a 30%
failure rate because they had asmall discussion about it.
So the chances of themremembering the cheese now
there's 70% chance, which is alot better than 10, you know.

(42:34):
And that's a simple strategythey can generate.
So I think that's the key.
To go back to your initialquestion is we need to make
these activities and make theseprograms salient.
I loved my program here inHawaii.
We would take people to thesupermarket.
We would tell them you have $30, and this wasn't military, this
was civilian.
But we'd say this is the recipewe're working on.
What supermarket has one onsale?

(42:54):
They would do an activity wherethey budget it.
Then we'd come back and thenext day, as a group, we'd cook
and they'd have to measure did Ibuy enough flour?
And we'd say, hey, we'reworking on these memory
strategies, but in context ofwhat you're going to do at home,
in context of what you might doat work.
So we'd sit the one day we'dcut out all the coupons, the
next day we'd take them shoppingand the third day we do a

(43:14):
cooking activity and that carryover.
But again, we weren't doingsomething they couldn't simulate
in the real world.
We were carrying it over.
So, on a on a larger scale, atan ISC, we can go to the
commissary, put them in anenvironment that's
overstimulating, tease outsomething like auditory
processing that they don't evenunderstand, walking in, you know
and let them.
Hey, you understood me threefeet away in the clinic.

(43:36):
Why are you having trouble?
Why are you having troubleunderstanding me?
You're the same distance away,but that background noise is now
a factor.
It wasn't a factor in my office, so now we might need a
referral to audiology to talkabout.
You know, do we need?
Is it hearing or is itprocessing, do you know?
So I feel like we just need todo more salient activities with
this population in order tobuild a foundation that they can

(43:59):
walk out of that clinic and notfeel like and I do find like
PrEP, for example, one of the VAclinics they follow their
patients after and I think it'sgreat.
They follow to make surethey're still using their whoop.
They're followed to make surethat they're still using the
tools they gave them.
They check to see nutritionwise, are they still following?
And that's the key, because ifanybody feels like that's great

(44:20):
for three weeks and then theclinician forgot about me, what
good are we?
What good are we?

Speaker 1 (44:24):
You know, once we get them prescribed into modalities
that can help them, all thatstuff is good, but it's
obviously given a suicide ratewe have, it's not it's obviously
given the suicide rate, we haveit's not sufficient.
It's not enough.
It's not enough.
We have to change the way wehave to get out of the box.
I'm trying to get them out ofthat box Absolutely and get it
done.
So last question on the topicVery interesting topic I think a

(44:47):
lot of our viewers are going tobe interested.
Are there any resources theyshould look at a website, a book
or something that they could,um, you know, take a look at.
I mean, I don't know if you'vegot a website or you know I
don't have my own website.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Um, I will remind you guys, listen to Jackie Jones.
She has a phenomenal website,Her.
That one is.
Go back to that.
If you're listening to this nowand you did not listen to the
art therapist, please go listento her.
She's phenomenal because shedoes have a great website.
Um, but there are some booksthat I do recommend my patients
read.
Um, the body keeps the score isone of them.
So that, that, yeah, vesselbander Cole, uh, he is the

(45:20):
father of trauma.
He worked with patients withPTSD before PTSD was even a term
.
Um, so he's up in the Bostonarea, but he is a phenomenal.
His book is written very well.
Anybody can read it.
It is.
The first half of the book isall about trauma and brain
injury and just what trauma doesto the brain.
The second half are treatmentmodalities.
You know it is a little moretrauma focused than it is more

(45:42):
TBI, but for people that areafraid of EMDR or afraid of
empty chair or afraid of thesedifferent techniques that are
being brought up, it goesthrough what they are, how they
work and why they're effective,and so it just gives like again,
you guys want to know the why.
Don't just tell me to pullthese tappers and sit there and
I'm going to start thinking ofmemory.
Why am I doing this?
What is it doing to my brain?
He gives all that informationand through stories, through

(46:04):
patient encounters, throughpatient experiences.
Two other books I love, umAchilles in Vietnam.
I'm not sure if you've readthat, no, so Achilles in Vietnam
, you might actually really likethat, because that's very you
know, you're the era, but it's alit buff who's also a
psychiatrist I can't rememberhis background, but he's mental
health but also a lit buff.

(46:25):
And he parallels the Trojan Warwith the Vietnam War and just
what the human psyche goesthrough.
And he uses Achilles as anexample, like when he lost
Patroclus, like how did hisbrain change?
He went into this what he callsberserk state and all was lost.
And he talks about Vietnam vets.
What was it like when they hadto do obscene things in combat

(46:46):
to survive mentally, to getthrough the days?
And then you know what are theytold to do when, when one of
their friends passes, likethey're just told to get mad and
get even.
So, when they're in thesupermarket and someone upsets
them, why are you surprised?
They took out the entire cerealaisle?
You taught them, they weretaught for years.
It was ingrained in them in atraumatic experience that you
get mad, get even.
So he parallels like the humanpsyche and just you know.

(47:08):
But it's through a story,through the.
You know he talks about theVietnam war, but through.
And then the second one he wrotewas Odysseus returns.
I think I was actually justrereading that recently.
Odysseus in America excuse me,I have it on my shelf there, but
that one talks about Odysseus'sjourney home and how much of
that journey was metaphorical,in the stages he needed to go

(47:29):
through, the grief, processingtrauma, all these things.
It wasn't so much 10 years ofhim wandering in circles trying
to get back home.
It was the, the, what hispsyche needed to get through to
before he could actually walkhome and be a part of his family
appropriately.
And I know you've talked aboutthis on previous episodes.
But what do people?
People are home within 48 hoursand so when do they get to

(47:50):
process any of this?
And then go home and be afamily man and go to church with
your family and be normal anddo all these things, pretend it
didn't happen, like the psychedoesn't work like that.
So those are some great booksto kind of get a foundation.
The other one that I I reallylove and this is the last one
I'll talk about is um is uh, whywe sleep.
Matthew walker great book thattalks about the importance of

(48:14):
sleep, and I I stayed away fromthat because I know other people
.
I've heard the glymphatic cyclebrought up a bunch of times in
these shows, so I didn't want todouble down on something that's
been talked about before.
But understanding stages ofsleep, understanding why 15
minutes of REM is not enough, Ifyou don't have that slow wave,
deep sleep, you're not dumpingthe junk out and we're wondering
why you have buildup of plaquesor all these extra proteins

(48:36):
that you know.
And then we're talking aboutconnections with Alzheimer's
later down the line.
So how can we get the brain todetox the same way we detox the
body?

Speaker 1 (48:45):
I'll get on that.
No, that's great Add to mylibrary, right.
I don't have enough, but no,it's amazing.
Stephanie, thank you so muchfor coming on.
Thank you, sir, it's been anamazing you know amazing journey
here.
I really appreciate what you'redoing for our veterans.
You have a focus and a kind ofperception on brain health that
we don't see that often.
So I really appreciate whatyou're doing.

(49:06):
You know we can, you know we'llinvite anybody to reach out to
you.
You know if they've got theirown, you know for you.
You know, just you know.
If there's a public facingwebsite or something, just let
us know.
I would invite anybody to lookup the Intrepid Centers.
I mean, these places areamazing.
I went to the one in SanAntonio that was dealing with
some of during the war, likesome of the most grievously

(49:30):
wounded soldiers were there andit was just amazing what they're
doing to get these men andwomen back.
So thank you so much, reallyappreciate it.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you havingme and I will give information
to Denny he can share.
I'll give an email address thatpeople or if they want to reach
out, I have no problem withthat.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
We'll post it on the website and put it for us.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you, have a great day.
What you do to our website freebook Broken Brains Please
download it 88 pages of the mostrecent information that we have
on brain trauma and what it'sdoing to our young men and women
, as well as our veterans andwhat we have to do.
Come to our website.
We've got a network.

(50:06):
We're making a resource guidefor veterans that go to VA and
get the coverage that they need,but we really appreciate you
following our show Like it.
Push it out there wherever youwant.
Really appreciate you.
God bless you all and I'll seeyou next time on Broken Brains,
sponsored by the Matt ParkmanFoundation, with yours truly.
So take care, have a good one,thank you.

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