In this episode, Kamran Malik, a former partner at EY, and now a Senior Client Partner at Kornferry based in Dubai, as well as a Managing Partner at a social ventures firm, brings a really unique global and workforce perspective relative to deepening the value and partnership between academia and industry. He believes the conversations are shifting from – what skills do I need to how do I ensure a productive workforce? He has a passion for education – and yet also believes that industry and technology are at a pace that will require higher education to think differently and “in the flow of work.” While some of his contentions may be considered bold or controversial by many in higher education, it’s a provocative reminder that there are opportunities for universities to help society embrace these changes and be ready for the future. In his own words: “I do think there is a big shift in how people learn – it’s now learning in the flow of life.”
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Wendy Colby (00:11):
This is Wendy Colby , vice President and Associate
Provost at Boston University andthe host of BU Virtual Connects
.
It is indeed a pleasure towelcome Kameron Malick, a global
business leader who has spentthe last 20 years working on
complex global assignments forone of the largest consulting
companies in the world.
Over the course of his career,he has focused on how to reskill
(00:32):
workforces to deal with thechallenges in today's
transformational age.
He has also lived at theintersection of business and
higher education, with a focuson how to best harness the power
of education to build a betterworking world.
I came to know Kam as we startedto open up conversations around
deepening the value andpartnership between academia and
(00:55):
industry.
Particularly given the times weare in, there has never been a
greater moment to explore how wecan better fulfill the promise
of education to create impactand reach more learners
worldwide.
But with that also come changes.
To explore how we can betterfulfill the promise of education
to create impact and reach morelearners worldwide.
But with that also come changesto the way we operate inside
higher education and how tothink more boldly to drive
innovation, growth andresiliency into the future.
(01:16):
I'm really looking forward towhat I hope will be a
provocative conversation.
Welcome Kam.
Pleasure to have you here today.
Kamran Malik (01:23):
Thank you.
Wendy Colby (01:31):
So you Kam obviously have an extraordinary
journey, launching new venturesand businesses inside of some of
the largest consultingcompanies in the world, and I
wonder if you can describe a bitof your journey for us.
What led you to this pathyou're on?
What do you see as your role inimpacting the future of work?
Kamran Malik (01:43):
Thanks, Wendy.
And look, I'd love to say therewas a grand master plan, but I
think it is definitelyaccidental and opportunistic.
So I did my undergrad at theLondon School of Economics and
started teaching there as anundergrad just first year
accounting courses, helpedco-author a couple of textbooks
and always had a little bit ofsort of academic learning bent.
(02:06):
I then became a charteredaccountant and joined EY, one of
the big sort of globalconsulting firms, and spent a
few years trying to persuade ourleadership that what they
really wanted to do was build alearning business to train and
educate our clients andeffectively bring my sort of
passion for education andlearning into the workplace.
And you know, after a couple ofyears of them eventually
(02:28):
getting sort of bored and saying, fine, Kam, here's a little bit
of seed money off you go.
Myself and sort of two othersstarted a learning business, oh
gosh, about 15 years ago and youknow we had one client ask some
training, then another, thenanother, and what started as a
very much, I'd say, anaccidental opportunity turned
into a quarter of a billiondollar business where we've
(02:51):
educated and upskilled, actuallyhaving sort of a strategic
venture model on how do youtransform skills, education and
learning, using differentpartners, using different
(03:15):
content providers, working withacademic institutions, working
with tech platforms, etc.
And so that's been a huge partof what I've been doing, really,
you know, I'd like to say thevanguard of skills and
upskilling, reskilling forcorporates, for governments and
across higher ed for the lastfew years.
Wendy Colby (03:38):
You know that's fantastic, and I really want to
probe more deeply on many ofthose topics that you just
touched on, and so you know oneof the, as we've gotten to know
each other over the course ofthe last year or two, you know
you've been looking a lot, asyou say, at the problem of
upskilling, reskilling globalleaders right across many client
businesses, and particularly inareas like AI, data science,
(04:00):
that are experiencing dramaticshifts and transformations.
So, with all of your experienceout there today, as you laid
this foundation, what do you seeas the biggest needs in
industry today and can you talka little bit about the kinds of
shifts you're seeing?
Kamran Malik (04:16):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
So there's probably a couple oflevels to this.
And look, it doesn't surpriseyou to look at the bigger skills
gaps that we're seeing.
I think LinkedIn released areport last week.
The World Economic Forum didbefore.
Ai is up there as the numberone across every single thing
that you look at.
(04:36):
I would say, though, that theconversation is shifting
somewhat, which is less aboutwhat skills do I need than the
mindset that I need to create.
So, for organizations, the bigpart is productivity.
It's how do I ensure aproductive workforce and how do
I drive productivity in myworkforce, and that's, you know,
in many cases, a state of mindas much as it is technical
(04:59):
skills.
So how do I create fire in thebelly for people to go and learn
?
You know I'll talk about my ownexamples later, but you know,
as we've talked about before,I'm launching a few businesses
of my own.
I have gone and taught myself.
You know the rudiments, and Iwill say hey, are the rudiments
of AI.
All the information you need tolearn about AI is freely
(05:22):
available on the internet.
You can get on to chat, GPT andteach yourself how to create
these engines.
It's how do you create thehunger in the belly for people
to drive and move forward, to dothat, and I think that is the
biggest challenge.
And so when you start unpackingthis, you know so much of
education has been about buildit and they will come.
(05:42):
You know the Kevin Costner fieldof dreams.
We have these beautiful coursesbuilt, we have these wondrous
learning experiences built andI'm seeing the paradigm shift to
.
So what?
How does this help me and whenis the moment that matters for
education?
We are more and more seeing themoment that matter is getting
(06:03):
looking for a job, getting apromotion, trying to move from
this role here to that there,and so more and more for me, I'm
seeing education part andparcel of the recruitment and
mobility cycle, way more thanthe talent developmental cycle,
and that's a controversial view,because actually that's the
moment that matters.
That's where people arepersonally invested and where
(06:25):
they've got fire in the belly tomake something happen.
So, to me, part of the reasonwhy and I've mentioned to you
before I'm moving on to sort ofcorn ferry is this idea of
linking recruitment, hiring,mobility and skills, because I
think that's the next unexploredpart of the journey.
Yeah, that's really nextunexplored part of the journey.
Wendy Colby (06:45):
Yeah, that's really interesting A follow-up to that
, Kam, as you're talking and I'mthinking a lot about what
you've just shared thererelative to fire in the belly
among the learners today, and Ilove that Flip that a little bit
for me on the company side, onthe industry side.
I know you've talked to me alot about companies that are
really challenged today withskills gaps, and so how do you
(07:10):
strike that balance between,okay, I want to have employees
in my workforce who have thatfire in the belly to learn, but
I also have a real demand tomake sure that I'm keeping up
with the times and can becompetitive in my space?
Absolutely, and I think for mea lot of this is about.
Kamran Malik (07:25):
You know, we talk about the skill set versus
mindset.
I've seen a definite focus onmindset and mindset-led
assessments as well.
So, actually, who you know, howdo you score on curiosity?
How do you score on learningagility, the ability to unlearn
and relearn new things, and nowtaking a greater import in some
of the leadership selectioncriteria and other selection
(07:48):
criteria?
I do think there is also a bitof how you create the right
learning journeys, because Ithink again, historically and
you know this is a problem thatwe've talked about before it's
like learning is over here andthe day job is over here, and
the two don't really mix and.
And so how do you create truelearning in the flow of work
that allows you to say, if I'mlearning about AI, okay, it's
(08:13):
great to learn about AI ethics,ai theory, but actually I need
to go and play, I need to seehow this works in practice and
play with the technology to thenbe able to come back in a
meaningful way.
It has a meaningful impact onmy day-to-day job.
So, you know, one of theventures we're starting is an
AI-enabled estate agency, andI've got developers working with
(08:34):
me on that and we're using somenew technology on.
You know, I think it's N8M andI'm learning this as well and
Amazon, poly and other things,where we're going to create an
ai call center where you cancall in and you talk to a bot to
effectively drive leadgeneration before it comes into
a human um estate agent or realestate agent to come and talk to
(08:56):
you.
So it's I'm learning that on aday-to-day basis and then that's
directly going to drive thefinancial performance of my
business.
How are companies doing thatand how are are senior leaders?
It's not the workforce, it is.
In order to be a senior leaderin this organization today, you
need to understand enough abouthow this works at a granular
level not to do it, but so whenyou're setting your big strategy
(09:19):
, you're able to understandthese nuances of the art of the
possible and how quickly it'smoving as well.
Wendy Colby (09:26):
And how do you, Kam and I love that phrase you use
you know, in the flow of workright.
Learning in the flow of work.
I think that is so important toensure it's relevant and
meaningful.
And I'm wondering, as you talknow to business leaders as well,
how do you drive the rightstructure inside of business to
get learning in the flow of workright?
(09:47):
As you've said, there's oftenbeen this disconnect right
between industry and what I needto learn, and so do we have a
moment where we might seeconvergence on this going
forward?
You know?
Kamran Malik (10:00):
again a really interesting, really interesting
concept and topic and we areseeing it a little bit in
industry again.
I wouldn't say there's aconsistent view but, for example
, I have noticed a move awayfrom the all-powerful central
lnd functions of the past to amuch more um, dare I say it's
(10:22):
like a hub and spoke type modelwhere there's more control of
the learning agenda in thebusiness unit and business unit
leadership take a much greaterdegree of ownership around.
Well, actually, what do ourpeople need to know in order to
hit our strategic objectives?
And therefore the BUC, HRO ismuch more involved in those
(10:42):
programs of activity to drivethat skills gap, because they
know, actually, I'm not going toachieve my strategic objectives
without A, B, C, D, E andtherefore we need to make this
happen and we're going to takemuch more ownership of how it's
going to happen and how we as abusiness are going to
incentivize people and metricpeople on making it happen,
(11:06):
Because that's the thing likefor a lot of these things it's.
Does it appear on a metric thatimpacts comp or impact
progression or impactperformance?
If it doesn't, unfortunatelythe likelihood is other than the
altruistic you know people wantto do good it will be a lower
priority than something thataffects 30% of your bonus.
Wendy Colby (11:25):
Yeah, it's so interesting as you look at the
challenges and having traversedboth sides myself being on the
industry side and being on theeducation side and I appreciate
what you're saying aboutlearning and development often
those were sort of check the boxinside of industry not really
that learning in the flow ofwork as we're talking about, and
on the university side it'soften been.
We have a very, you know, moretraditional model of the way in
(11:47):
which we are educating, you know, students for the future, and
so I'm really probing on howwe're bringing those pieces
together now.
So if the learning anddevelopment model, perhaps in
its earlier origins, no longersuits the purpose of tomorrow,
are there ways in which you seeuniversities and business coming
(12:11):
together right in moremeaningful ways so that there is
a true partnership, and perhapsnot just one that is about
let's do the internship at thisparticular company, but there
are ways in which we're reallyclosely collaborating on how to
solve for some of these realissues.
Kamran Malik (12:29):
I definitely think they are and to an extent we
see it in the world already withco-chairs or business.
Pharmaceuticals is a greatexample of where you do see
business and academia comingtogether for great success,
because actually it's a jointventure bringing the best from
both sides to drive researchinto new drugs, new solutions
(12:52):
for that particular sector.
I think the key thing here isreally understanding what both
sides can bring to the party andthe field that you're in and,
frankly, how quickly it's moving, because we're the best will in
the world.
No one take the topic of AI.
You know, in the last threemonths alone on the coalface I
have seen how much some of thetechnology has changed and what
(13:15):
you can do.
No program is going to be ableto keep up with that.
But when you start thinkingabout the ethics of AI, when you
think about, like, how you'restructuring data flows and how
they need to work, academics andbusiness together have a lot to
bring to the party.
So I think it's two things.
It's firstly, recognizing howyou structure those programs to
(13:38):
allow for the rigorous course ofstudy and the rigorous thinking
and application that academiabrings alongside the very, very
hyper-practical.
This is how you deploy it inyour organization.
This is how it's real.
So I think those two bits areone piece.
And then let's not forget themotivating power of badging
(13:59):
certification and having a levelplaying field.
So you know, part of the reasonI will say why they're still
important is we have not yetworked out a consistent way of
assessing individual skills, andso university qualifications
(14:19):
are a shortcut to that.
Taking large tracts ofinformation, ingesting them and
summarising them in the form ofan exam, and has been able to do
that on a consistent basis.
And that transcript gives meconfidence that for that subject
(14:40):
they're able to do that.
It doesn't necessarily meanthey will be able to apply in
new ways, and similarly, someonewithout that may well also be
able to do that.
But in the past, the universitytranscript, in my view, has
been shorthand for, in somecases, a measurement of IQ for
the Ivy Leagues and upper tieruniversities and secondly, a
view of your ability to completea rigorous course of study.
(15:02):
Expect and we were starting totalk about this before within
the next couple of years, if notsooner, that will no longer be
the case that we will be able touse technology enough to be
able to truly independentlyassess and verify skills and
capabilities.
Which then leaves a very bigquestion of what value the
(15:25):
university degree.
If I'm a corporate organizationlooking to attract school
leavers and I'm able to partnerup with a university to offer
degrees, diplomas, certificationas part of my corporate
university, that one universityI partner with will have a great
number of students comingthrough.
(15:46):
But every other university thattier, I think, may struggle when
, rather than a student payingthe university, they're getting
paid by their employer to getthese qualifications, and it's
for free.
Wendy Colby (15:59):
Yeah, you know.
Just another moment on thewhole certificates, badges, the
stackability and I think so muchof what you're saying there,
Kam, is really important that wehave to be paying attention to
as universities as well, becausewe have different types of
learners, they're learning indifferent ways, they have
different motivations, we havemobility and flexibility, all
these other things now, but howdo you see industry sort of
(16:22):
ranking certificates and badgestoday or the value of those as
perceived by the individuals inthose organizations today?
Is that a way to kind of keepup?
Because, again, the rate ofacceleration in technology today
means the degree I got 10 yearsago is no longer going to serve
me today?
Kamran Malik (16:38):
Yeah, it's definitely a signaling mechanism
.
So you do see that more andmore and, interestingly, the
most important.
So for most and again I'll gobroad brush here but for a lot
of folks, their LinkedIn profileis the single most important
part of their profile.
It's way more important thantheir internal work profile,
because that is their signaling,and so certifications, diplomas
(17:00):
, badges, all that stuff have arole to play in signaling your
commitment to self-developmentfor current and future employers
, and so we do see that havingimportance.
But, for example, it's a doesan AI badge from Google rank
higher or lower than an AI badgefrom Oxford Rank higher or
(17:21):
lower than an AI badge from a,you know, nvidia?
So you're now, then, startingto get to all.
Wendy Colby (17:27):
An AI badge from BU .
Kamran Malik (17:29):
Oh, absolutely, an AI badge from BU.
How do you start ranking theseand what does that look like?
And so I think the individualit's hard to say, but it's like
the individual universityelement is maybe not quite as
important as it was 5, 10, 15years ago, because actually are
(17:50):
you seen as the experts in thefield, over and above the
corporates, and it's how thosepartnerships then work, where
actually they can help you aswell as the corporates as well.
Wendy Colby (18:01):
Right, it can be the entry into the degree and
then you know the exit out ofthe degree in effect, right, so
we're starting to think about,you know, kind of that broader
lifelong learning segment.
So, switching gears a littlebit and you touched on this at
the opening cam you've continuedto stay very active in higher
education and in the highereducation community.
It's clear you have a passionfor education and starting these
(18:21):
learning businesses even earlyon in consulting your own alma
mater, the London School ofEconomics, and so just your own
experience right in working withhigher education and I always
love taking the lens of someonewho has come from industry and
then how you look at you know,as you take a peek inside of our
world in higher education andwhere might you have some
(18:43):
recommendations or suggestions,right, it's always an evolution,
especially when you're tryingto bring some very traditional
universities forward or helpinguniversities evolve in these
times.
Where do you see thoseopportunities today?
Kamran Malik (18:56):
So they are, I think, many and varied, and I'll
put a I don't know if but isthe right word.
But you have a lot ofinstitutional immunity I will
use the word immunity, you knowto and resistance to change.
I think that will probably bethe single biggest undoing of
(19:17):
the higher education sector isthe inability to move quickly,
at pace as the market moves.
And so my biggest worry in allof this is outside of the, the
big brands, you know, the BUs,the LSEs, the OPSAs, et cetera,
of the world, like I do worrythat a lot of institutions are
sleepwalking into disasterbecause I do not see how they've
(19:40):
got a future, genuinely I don't.
So I look at let's look atcourse development.
Okay, so I can now withtechnology having, you know, 10
years ago or 15 years ago, whenI started my learning business,
I had a team of 80 instructionaldesigners, graphic designers,
guys who basically builtlearning programs, and I could
(20:01):
throughput maybe the equivalentof 10, 15 academic courses a
year, full-scale academiccourses a year.
Now I need a team of maybe 10to academic courses a year,
full-scale academic courses ayear.
Now I need a team of maybe 10to do the same throughput,
leaning in really hard ontechnology.
That's just the learningcontent creation.
Then you start looking at thetopics.
(20:22):
So I've gone from I had aconversation with one of my
clients a couple of weeks ago.
I've gone from thatconversation to a fully formed
curriculum which we are nowgoing to talk about next week.
So that's what?
Four weeks, from conversationone to fully formed curriculum.
This is how it will go.
This is the learning journey.
These are the interventions,this is the badging.
(20:44):
This is how it would work.
These are the gamified elements.
These are the bits where youcome together as a cohort to
learn All of that in four weeks.
That's.
You know, that's so far beyondwhere most academic companies.
Wendy Colby (21:05):
Well, in core instructional design in general,
right, I mean, there's been amodel around and the human
element, and how do you pairfaculty with instructional
design and all of that?
And you don't want that humanelement to go away, but you want
to kind of create, havecreativity and innovation and
efficiency right, that comes outof it to support the learning.
Kamran Malik (21:22):
And also part of this then goes into like the
ultimate mindset, which is for alot of my clients.
We's like we're just, we needto.
This is not what you deliver,is not the final outcome.
So you know much like a product.
What's the MVP, what's the MVPof learning?
And how can you then, over twoor three iterations of the
program or the first thousandusers, update, change, tweak, so
(21:43):
it gets better and better.
But if you can deploy mesomething in four, six, eight,
10 weeks that I can then movewith, that, that's great.
So that for me, I think, is abig shift.
The other big shift and youtouched on this, actually we, we
had some fun playing aroundwith stackability is why, you
(22:03):
know, is delineating the ideabetween accreditation and
content for 101, 101 levelcontent.
There is so much free stuff outthere, why do institutions
insist that it has to be there?
So you know, being anaccountant, double entry
bookkeeping, whether I went tothe LSE or Boston, it's the same
(22:25):
, and I can go on to YouTube andfind enough courses that are
right on double entry booking,as long as you put an exam at
the end where you're checkingsomeone's actual knowledge, who
cares where the content comesfrom, and so how open are
institutions to having a verydifferent approach?
And this is a real thing.
If I wanted to do this 10 yearsago ago and probably today,
(22:48):
there would be a one-yearnegotiation between, let's say,
abu and the lse to say, let'snegotiate the terms of this.
What would the page look like,what would the certificate look
like?
And by that time we've alreadygot three cohorts through it,
doing it a very live way.
So that speed and that abilityto innovate is there.
(23:09):
And I think the big thing that,for me, academia will probably
need to look at is risk aversion.
I do get risk aversion brand Iused to work for like an
accounting firm, so believe me,the auditor opinion of being a
qualified chartered accountantand auditor.
To myself, I get risk aversionand professional skepticism, but
it's now, I think, getting to astage where it's detracting
(23:32):
from the opportunity and theopportunity to educate, the
opportunity to help society beready for the future.
Wendy Colby (23:42):
And if you were sitting, Kam, on my side of the
fence here, you've been sittingreally on the side of industry
for a long time and you'relooking in the window here, and
I agree with so much of whatyou've said here, and we talk
about this internally tooagility, nimbleness, how to
structurally change things,which can be hard in a system
like this, where you have justyears of tradition and systems
(24:05):
that have worked in a certainway, and so I'm wondering you
know a lot of the way I view myown role here is on education
and how to best bring peoplealong, and so I'm wondering how
you think about that Again, ifyou were sitting in my seat,
what would you try to do to help, you know, university leaders
and academics and deans,together with students?
(24:26):
Frankly, because I think what'sdriving us a lot right now is
the changing behavior instudents right, who expect us to
be working in different ways,and can you comment a little bit
about that?
Kamran Malik (24:38):
Yeah.
So look again, with this thereare sort of the two let's call
it the carrot and the stick.
So the carrot is very clear.
It's like showing the art ofthe possible.
I think there is a whole thingand we do that.
We do this a lot with companies.
We've never actually it's funnyI've never actually done this
with our ed that we talked aboutthis before this idea of how
(25:00):
well do you actually understand,as a dean, the art of the
possible, what you can do, howquickly things can move, how you
can still retain control andownership, but how the
technology allows you to reallyfulfill what students want, what
clients want, the ability for astudent to you know like.
So take someone like me.
I struggle with large tracts ofacademic text.
(25:23):
If I use things like napkinai,which takes text and converts it
to infographics, I learn waybetter.
How much is that part andparcel of a tool that is out
there for students?
So you do nothing else but helpthem take PDFs and turn it into
easier formats.
Well, students with ADHD, thereare now tools out there that
allow you to bold certain wordsthat mean it's easier for you to
(25:47):
understand.
So you go from the very, verybasic.
Just take what you have and usethese tools to help the student
learn all the way through to.
I can take a student, I canidentify their skills gaps using
AI and I can come up with alearning journey for them that
is bespoke on how they learn, ondemand, with what they need,
(26:08):
based on all the content thatexists at BU.
Like that, and that is notsomething brand new.
I mean, that exists today.
There's a real like, there's aneasy play there.
So that's the sort of thecarrot look at what's out there
and work out what you can do.
The stick is the what are theKPIs?
(26:29):
Like you know, in a lot of myexperience, you know, tenure is
research driven.
The KPI has got nothing to dowith learning, skills
development, ability to get ajob in the job market and salary
in the job market's down to theresearch produced and so that
drives the behaviors.
So, and again, it's hard withtenure.
(26:51):
But you know you're I thinkyou're present that's having a
good go at shaking things upthere a bit.
It's like who is metric on theultimate kpi of getting a job
for a student?
Who is metric and whatproportion of academic salaries
are contingent on their studentsand the salaries they earn and
the jobs they get, becauseultimately, as I've said before,
(27:12):
if it's not metric, it's a niceto have, and so that's a
controversial view, but I'm surethere's a degree of human
behavioral, psychology andtheory in there.
Where's the metrics?
Wendy Colby (27:26):
I appreciate your bringing the business acumen
into this.
I think these are the kinds ofthings we do need to be thinking
about going forward, and I lovethese ideas.
You know, for those who may belistening here is how we start
to think about metrics aroundyou know students getting jobs
and what those salaries are, andcan we track some of those
things for you know, to measureour impact and success.
(27:48):
Okay, let me move on a bit.
I did want to make sure wereally touch on the global piece
of this as well, given how muchof this is in your own
wheelhouse and experience, camand traveling all over the world
and working all over the world.
I recently myself returned froma visit to India and it was, you
know, really staggering to me,right, the opportunities that
(28:10):
exist.
I think the number shared withme, just even on MBAs, that need
to be trained in India in thecoming years is over 5 million,
and they don't have the capacityto do that today.
And so, you know, asuniversities, we are also
starting to think about what dowe do differently globally?
Right, is it still aboutsetting up hubs in different
countries overseas, or are theredifferent models?
(28:32):
How do we expand our borders.
Certainly, we're doing thatwith online today, expanding our
borders, but how do we addresssome of these gaps, and I'm
wondering if you might have someadvice or counsel here too, on
you know best ways to approachthat yeah, that's interesting as
well and I think it's funny forme.
Kamran Malik (28:51):
I think there there has definitely been a
shift away from the export modelof the past.
So you know, again we go backmaybe 20, 20 years where you
know, the western institutionswere seen as the preeminent
institutions and so there was,you know, a ready business model
and money to be made frankly onexporting those that brand
(29:14):
overseas.
And you know it's funny, we'veactually seen it a lot in the
secondary school market as well.
So there are notable secondaryschools, I know.
I think last week rugby schoolin the uk, which is a private
school here, opened a branch outin Lagos in Nigeria.
So there are, you know, thatwhole export of education and
export of brand is definitely awell-trodden path.
(29:38):
For me I think the shift is topartnerships, and they've always
been around, so you've alwayshad things like sister
universities or other things,but it's a much stronger, more
symbiotic partnership on a muchmore equal footing.
It's you know who's got skin inthe game.
What are we jointlycontributing, adding a corporate
(30:01):
or a industry point of viewinto those partnerships?
And it comes back to what's thekpi.
What are we actually trying toachieve here and what's best for
the student?
Do most students come intothese institutions looking for a
job at the outcome, and if so,then let's pivot way more, and
there are some you know, I think, minerva doing a lot in that
(30:22):
space at the moment as well.
There are others who are doingmore in that space, like for me.
Always comes back to what's themetric we're trying to change.
How are we going to do it?
And also, I think you know, buand others have a great
opportunity to lift societalcapabilities through this too.
I think we talked before aboutthe you know 11 to 13 program.
(30:42):
I'm building all for ai skills,a freely available program for
everyone.
16 plus program it's where areyou know.
You've been big on likescholarships and the bursary
programs, but it's looking atwhat can we do to help society
as well.
That will have a trickle flowinto some of these programs too.
Wendy Colby (31:08):
Yeah, it's fascinating and I love that
you're starting to address eventhis K-12 market, right, and,
with these offerings, reminds meof, like, the Khan Academies of
the world, right, and now it'sabout AI, and so, while we're
addressing this from the highered spectrum, got to recognize
that this world is changing withstudents coming into university
today, right, so reallyimportant to be thinking about
(31:29):
that.
Kamran Malik (31:30):
So maybe I'll go ahead.
I think for this topic,actually, the bigger age gap is
the 40 plus.
Interestingly, the 40 plus areprobably more comfortable with
the idea of going back to auniversity um, other than the
online programs, and so it'sinteresting understanding that
market and like where you'replaying, where you're playing
(31:53):
there again, that far in thebelly is great if you know how
to navigate, where you need tonavigate to learn those skills,
and if you don't, you're awareof this big amorphous ai thing
that's taking over the world,but where do you go from there?
So I do think there's more tobe done there.
Let's not discount, you know,the Gen Xers like my good self,
(32:15):
who are there, ready and willingto contribute to society as
well.
Wendy Colby (32:22):
Yeah, you know what I think is really interesting?
You're touching on anothersubject that is near and dear to
my heart and that is aroundsegmentation and around the
portfolios, right, that we offer.
And so to your point right,there are segments which may
prefer online or hybrid orin-person, and how do we
(32:43):
accommodate those?
And then, in addition, it'salso back to your KPI point.
It's thinking about theportfolios of what we offer
today.
You and I were talking theother day about sort of the
growth of AI in business andwhere that could be taking us in
the near to long term.
So, just a moment on that.
I mean, as you think about youknow and I know we're thinking
(33:03):
deeply about this here too like,what do we offer?
Maybe some of the programs?
Kamran Malik (33:10):
that we've had in the past are not the programs we
should have in the future?
Yeah, definitely.
I think it comes back to what'sdriving and motivating
individuals.
So is the three-year degreeprogram a thing of the past?
Is the short, sharpintervention over periods in
your you know the lifelong BUskills programme?
You know where you effectivelyhave over the course of the next
(33:32):
20 years there are touch pointswhere you make sure you're sort
of kept up to date andupskilled.
I don't know, but I do thinkthere is a big shift, and it's
also a big shift in where andhow people learn, so it needs to
be in the flow of life.
Wendy Colby (33:52):
Ah, the flow of work and the flow of life.
Kamran Malik (33:54):
I like that.
So it's very much like how andwhere you learn different skills
and you know, in life, newparents you go from.
You know just the two of youquite happily walking into a
hospital one day, coming outwith this child.
I think Bob Keegan at Harvardtalks about the plateaus of
(34:15):
human development and howeffectively these life-changing
events cause a shift in theplateau of human development.
So the learning that parents gothrough is huge.
There's no play.
You might go to an NCT class,you might read, you know, the
Idiot's Guide to Parenting orwhatever.
But like you go through thisbig shift and change During life
(34:35):
.
There are these processes howcan and you know parenting is a
sort of left-field example, butyou know take that of starting
your own business or, you know,taking a new job.
How does society shape thesebig developmental lifts?
And where can academia getinvolved?
(34:56):
Should academia get involved?
Or actually does the role ofacademia change to be more honed
in on research?
That's the core business ofacademia.
And actually do we see a shiftwhere the ancillary learning
elements fall off and be pickedup by other places and academia
(35:16):
becomes a real targeted research, pushing humanity forward type
of institution?
You know these are bigquestions that I couldn't hope
to have the answer to.
Wendy Colby (35:27):
Well, wow, Kam, that might be a way to bring us
to a close here.
That has been, this has been afascinating conversation.
Is there anything else youwould like to share before we
close today?
Kamran Malik (35:39):
No, no, I think we've had a merry old journey
through the world.
Look some of my personalperspectives.
I do think you know you canlook at the world through a
utopian or dystopian lens, andyou know so.
Either, basically, ai andtechnology is going to take over
(36:01):
all our jobs and we'll all behomeless, or actually we will
grow and evolve through that.
I have a utopian view with acaveat, which is I do think
humanity will evolve, but weneed the fire in the belly and
the drive to do it, and I thinkwithout that we do risk the
dystopian view.
(36:21):
My hope is and you do see, I'mrefreshed every day when I go
and I see and I teach and I workwith folks, and I see people
grasping and hungry to learnthese new skills.
So I'd like to sort of finishby saying that I believe in the
utopian view, but there's a thinline between the utopia and
(36:42):
dystopia.
Wendy Colby (36:44):
Well, let's keep optimism alive.
I'm with you.
I am eager to partner with moreinnovators and collaborators
like you and really have enjoyedthis conversation and look
forward to all the great thingsyou're going to do, going
forward to help us get to utopiaCam.
Thank you, Wendy.
Thank you for joining us forthis BU Virtual Connects podcast
(37:13):
.
Special thanks to my colleaguesat BU Virtual and to our media
team who produces this podcastunder the leadership of our
studio director, George Vago.
To keep up with our BU VirtualConnect series, be sure to
subscribe wherever you listen toyour favorite podcasts.
You can also learn more aboutour portfolio of online programs
at BU Virtual by visiting bu.
(37:35):
edu/ virtual.
This is Wendy Colby , vice President and Associate
Provost at Boston University andthe host of BU Virtual Connects
.
It is indeed a pleasure towelcome Kameron Malick, a global
business leader who has spentthe last 20 years working on
complex global assignments forone of the largest consulting
companies in the world.
Over the course of his career,he has focused on how to reskill
(00:32):
workforces to deal with thechallenges in today's
transformational age.
He has also lived at theintersection of business and
higher education, with a focuson how to best harness the power
of education to build a betterworking world.
I came to know Kam as we startedto open up conversations around
deepening the value andpartnership between academia and
(00:55):
industry.
Particularly given the times weare in, there has never been a
greater moment to explore how wecan better fulfill the promise
of education to create impactand reach more learners
worldwide.
But with that also come changes.
To explore how we can betterfulfill the promise of education
to create impact and reach morelearners worldwide.
But with that also come changesto the way we operate inside
higher education and how tothink more boldly to drive
innovation, growth andresiliency into the future.
(01:16):
I'm really looking forward towhat I hope will be a
provocative conversation.
Welcome Kam.
Pleasure to have you here today.
Kamran Malik (01:23):
Thank you.
Wendy Colby (01:31):
So you Kam obviously have an extraordinary
journey, launching new venturesand businesses inside of some of
the largest consultingcompanies in the world, and I
wonder if you can describe a bitof your journey for us.
What led you to this pathyou're on?
What do you see as your role inimpacting the future of work?
Kamran Malik (01:43):
Thanks, Wendy.
And look, I'd love to say therewas a grand master plan, but I
think it is definitelyaccidental and opportunistic.
So I did my undergrad at theLondon School of Economics and
started teaching there as anundergrad just first year
accounting courses, helpedco-author a couple of textbooks
and always had a little bit ofsort of academic learning bent.
(02:06):
I then became a charteredaccountant and joined EY, one of
the big sort of globalconsulting firms, and spent a
few years trying to persuade ourleadership that what they
really wanted to do was build alearning business to train and
educate our clients andeffectively bring my sort of
passion for education andlearning into the workplace.
And you know, after a couple ofyears of them eventually
(02:28):
getting sort of bored and saying, fine, Kam, here's a little bit
of seed money off you go.
Myself and sort of two othersstarted a learning business, oh
gosh, about 15 years ago and youknow we had one client ask some
training, then another, thenanother, and what started as a
very much, I'd say, anaccidental opportunity turned
into a quarter of a billiondollar business where we've
(02:51):
educated and upskilled, actuallyhaving sort of a strategic
venture model on how do youtransform skills, education and
learning, using differentpartners, using different
(03:15):
content providers, working withacademic institutions, working
with tech platforms, etc.
And so that's been a huge partof what I've been doing, really,
you know, I'd like to say thevanguard of skills and
upskilling, reskilling forcorporates, for governments and
across higher ed for the lastfew years.
Wendy Colby (03:38):
You know that's fantastic, and I really want to
probe more deeply on many ofthose topics that you just
touched on, and so you know oneof the, as we've gotten to know
each other over the course ofthe last year or two, you know
you've been looking a lot, asyou say, at the problem of
upskilling, reskilling globalleaders right across many client
businesses, and particularly inareas like AI, data science,
(04:00):
that are experiencing dramaticshifts and transformations.
So, with all of your experienceout there today, as you laid
this foundation, what do you seeas the biggest needs in
industry today and can you talka little bit about the kinds of
shifts you're seeing?
Kamran Malik (04:16):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
So there's probably a couple oflevels to this.
And look, it doesn't surpriseyou to look at the bigger skills
gaps that we're seeing.
I think LinkedIn released areport last week.
The World Economic Forum didbefore.
Ai is up there as the numberone across every single thing
that you look at.
(04:36):
I would say, though, that theconversation is shifting
somewhat, which is less aboutwhat skills do I need than the
mindset that I need to create.
So, for organizations, the bigpart is productivity.
It's how do I ensure aproductive workforce and how do
I drive productivity in myworkforce, and that's, you know,
in many cases, a state of mindas much as it is technical
(04:59):
skills.
So how do I create fire in thebelly for people to go and learn
?
You know I'll talk about my ownexamples later, but you know,
as we've talked about before,I'm launching a few businesses
of my own.
I have gone and taught myself.
You know the rudiments, and Iwill say hey, are the rudiments
of AI.
All the information you need tolearn about AI is freely
(05:22):
available on the internet.
You can get on to chat, GPT andteach yourself how to create
these engines.
It's how do you create thehunger in the belly for people
to drive and move forward, to dothat, and I think that is the
biggest challenge.
And so when you start unpackingthis, you know so much of
education has been about buildit and they will come.
(05:42):
You know the Kevin Costner fieldof dreams.
We have these beautiful coursesbuilt, we have these wondrous
learning experiences built andI'm seeing the paradigm shift to
.
So what?
How does this help me and whenis the moment that matters for
education?
We are more and more seeing themoment that matter is getting
(06:03):
looking for a job, getting apromotion, trying to move from
this role here to that there,and so more and more for me, I'm
seeing education part andparcel of the recruitment and
mobility cycle, way more thanthe talent developmental cycle,
and that's a controversial view,because actually that's the
moment that matters.
That's where people arepersonally invested and where
(06:25):
they've got fire in the belly tomake something happen.
So, to me, part of the reasonwhy and I've mentioned to you
before I'm moving on to sort ofcorn ferry is this idea of
linking recruitment, hiring,mobility and skills, because I
think that's the next unexploredpart of the journey.
Yeah, that's really nextunexplored part of the journey.
Wendy Colby (06:45):
Yeah, that's really interesting A follow-up to that
, Kam, as you're talking and I'mthinking a lot about what
you've just shared thererelative to fire in the belly
among the learners today, and Ilove that Flip that a little bit
for me on the company side, onthe industry side.
I know you've talked to me alot about companies that are
really challenged today withskills gaps, and so how do you
(07:10):
strike that balance between,okay, I want to have employees
in my workforce who have thatfire in the belly to learn, but
I also have a real demand tomake sure that I'm keeping up
with the times and can becompetitive in my space?
Absolutely, and I think for mea lot of this is about.
Kamran Malik (07:25):
You know, we talk about the skill set versus
mindset.
I've seen a definite focus onmindset and mindset-led
assessments as well.
So, actually, who you know, howdo you score on curiosity?
How do you score on learningagility, the ability to unlearn
and relearn new things, and nowtaking a greater import in some
of the leadership selectioncriteria and other selection
(07:48):
criteria?
I do think there is also a bitof how you create the right
learning journeys, because Ithink again, historically and
you know this is a problem thatwe've talked about before it's
like learning is over here andthe day job is over here, and
the two don't really mix and.
And so how do you create truelearning in the flow of work
that allows you to say, if I'mlearning about AI, okay, it's
(08:13):
great to learn about AI ethics,ai theory, but actually I need
to go and play, I need to seehow this works in practice and
play with the technology to thenbe able to come back in a
meaningful way.
It has a meaningful impact onmy day-to-day job.
So, you know, one of theventures we're starting is an
AI-enabled estate agency, andI've got developers working with
(08:34):
me on that and we're using somenew technology on.
You know, I think it's N8M andI'm learning this as well and
Amazon, poly and other things,where we're going to create an
ai call center where you cancall in and you talk to a bot to
effectively drive leadgeneration before it comes into
a human um estate agent or realestate agent to come and talk to
(08:56):
you.
So it's I'm learning that on aday-to-day basis and then that's
directly going to drive thefinancial performance of my
business.
How are companies doing thatand how are are senior leaders?
It's not the workforce, it is.
In order to be a senior leaderin this organization today, you
need to understand enough abouthow this works at a granular
level not to do it, but so whenyou're setting your big strategy
(09:19):
, you're able to understandthese nuances of the art of the
possible and how quickly it'smoving as well.
Wendy Colby (09:26):
And how do you, Kam and I love that phrase you use
you know, in the flow of workright.
Learning in the flow of work.
I think that is so important toensure it's relevant and
meaningful.
And I'm wondering, as you talknow to business leaders as well,
how do you drive the rightstructure inside of business to
get learning in the flow of workright?
(09:47):
As you've said, there's oftenbeen this disconnect right
between industry and what I needto learn, and so do we have a
moment where we might seeconvergence on this going
forward?
You know?
Kamran Malik (10:00):
again a really interesting, really interesting
concept and topic and we areseeing it a little bit in
industry again.
I wouldn't say there's aconsistent view but, for example
, I have noticed a move awayfrom the all-powerful central
lnd functions of the past to amuch more um, dare I say it's
(10:22):
like a hub and spoke type modelwhere there's more control of
the learning agenda in thebusiness unit and business unit
leadership take a much greaterdegree of ownership around.
Well, actually, what do ourpeople need to know in order to
hit our strategic objectives?
And therefore the BUC, HRO ismuch more involved in those
(10:42):
programs of activity to drivethat skills gap, because they
know, actually, I'm not going toachieve my strategic objectives
without A, B, C, D, E andtherefore we need to make this
happen and we're going to takemuch more ownership of how it's
going to happen and how we as abusiness are going to
incentivize people and metricpeople on making it happen,
(11:06):
Because that's the thing likefor a lot of these things it's.
Does it appear on a metric thatimpacts comp or impact
progression or impactperformance?
If it doesn't, unfortunatelythe likelihood is other than the
altruistic you know people wantto do good it will be a lower
priority than something thataffects 30% of your bonus.
Wendy Colby (11:25):
Yeah, it's so interesting as you look at the
challenges and having traversedboth sides myself being on the
industry side and being on theeducation side and I appreciate
what you're saying aboutlearning and development often
those were sort of check the boxinside of industry not really
that learning in the flow ofwork as we're talking about, and
on the university side it'soften been.
We have a very, you know, moretraditional model of the way in
(11:47):
which we are educating, you know, students for the future, and
so I'm really probing on howwe're bringing those pieces
together now.
So if the learning anddevelopment model, perhaps in
its earlier origins, no longersuits the purpose of tomorrow,
are there ways in which you seeuniversities and business coming
(12:11):
together right in moremeaningful ways so that there is
a true partnership, and perhapsnot just one that is about
let's do the internship at thisparticular company, but there
are ways in which we're reallyclosely collaborating on how to
solve for some of these realissues.
Kamran Malik (12:29):
I definitely think they are and to an extent we
see it in the world already withco-chairs or business.
Pharmaceuticals is a greatexample of where you do see
business and academia comingtogether for great success,
because actually it's a jointventure bringing the best from
both sides to drive researchinto new drugs, new solutions
(12:52):
for that particular sector.
I think the key thing here isreally understanding what both
sides can bring to the party andthe field that you're in and,
frankly, how quickly it's moving, because we're the best will in
the world.
No one take the topic of AI.
You know, in the last threemonths alone on the coalface I
have seen how much some of thetechnology has changed and what
(13:15):
you can do.
No program is going to be ableto keep up with that.
But when you start thinkingabout the ethics of AI, when you
think about, like, how you'restructuring data flows and how
they need to work, academics andbusiness together have a lot to
bring to the party.
So I think it's two things.
It's firstly, recognizing howyou structure those programs to
(13:38):
allow for the rigorous course ofstudy and the rigorous thinking
and application that academiabrings alongside the very, very
hyper-practical.
This is how you deploy it inyour organization.
This is how it's real.
So I think those two bits areone piece.
And then let's not forget themotivating power of badging
(13:59):
certification and having a levelplaying field.
So you know, part of the reasonI will say why they're still
important is we have not yetworked out a consistent way of
assessing individual skills, andso university qualifications
(14:19):
are a shortcut to that.
Taking large tracts ofinformation, ingesting them and
summarising them in the form ofan exam, and has been able to do
that on a consistent basis.
And that transcript gives meconfidence that for that subject
(14:40):
they're able to do that.
It doesn't necessarily meanthey will be able to apply in
new ways, and similarly, someonewithout that may well also be
able to do that.
But in the past, the universitytranscript, in my view, has
been shorthand for, in somecases, a measurement of IQ for
the Ivy Leagues and upper tieruniversities and secondly, a
view of your ability to completea rigorous course of study.
(15:02):
Expect and we were starting totalk about this before within
the next couple of years, if notsooner, that will no longer be
the case that we will be able touse technology enough to be
able to truly independentlyassess and verify skills and
capabilities.
Which then leaves a very bigquestion of what value the
(15:25):
university degree.
If I'm a corporate organizationlooking to attract school
leavers and I'm able to partnerup with a university to offer
degrees, diplomas, certificationas part of my corporate
university, that one universityI partner with will have a great
number of students comingthrough.
(15:46):
But every other university thattier, I think, may struggle when
, rather than a student payingthe university, they're getting
paid by their employer to getthese qualifications, and it's
for free.
Wendy Colby (15:59):
Yeah, you know.
Just another moment on thewhole certificates, badges, the
stackability and I think so muchof what you're saying there,
Kam, is really important that wehave to be paying attention to
as universities as well, becausewe have different types of
learners, they're learning indifferent ways, they have
different motivations, we havemobility and flexibility, all
these other things now, but howdo you see industry sort of
(16:22):
ranking certificates and badgestoday or the value of those as
perceived by the individuals inthose organizations today?
Is that a way to kind of keepup?
Because, again, the rate ofacceleration in technology today
means the degree I got 10 yearsago is no longer going to serve
me today?
Kamran Malik (16:38):
Yeah, it's definitely a signaling mechanism
.
So you do see that more andmore and, interestingly, the
most important.
So for most and again I'll gobroad brush here but for a lot
of folks, their LinkedIn profileis the single most important
part of their profile.
It's way more important thantheir internal work profile,
because that is their signaling,and so certifications, diplomas
(17:00):
, badges, all that stuff have arole to play in signaling your
commitment to self-developmentfor current and future employers
, and so we do see that havingimportance.
But, for example, it's a doesan AI badge from Google rank
higher or lower than an AI badgefrom Oxford Rank higher or
(17:21):
lower than an AI badge from a,you know, nvidia?
So you're now, then, startingto get to all.
Wendy Colby (17:27):
An AI badge from BU .
Kamran Malik (17:29):
Oh, absolutely, an AI badge from BU.
How do you start ranking theseand what does that look like?
And so I think the individualit's hard to say, but it's like
the individual universityelement is maybe not quite as
important as it was 5, 10, 15years ago, because actually are
(17:50):
you seen as the experts in thefield, over and above the
corporates, and it's how thosepartnerships then work, where
actually they can help you aswell as the corporates as well.
Wendy Colby (18:01):
Right, it can be the entry into the degree and
then you know the exit out ofthe degree in effect, right, so
we're starting to think about,you know, kind of that broader
lifelong learning segment.
So, switching gears a littlebit and you touched on this at
the opening cam you've continuedto stay very active in higher
education and in the highereducation community.
It's clear you have a passionfor education and starting these
(18:21):
learning businesses even earlyon in consulting your own alma
mater, the London School ofEconomics, and so just your own
experience right in working withhigher education and I always
love taking the lens of someonewho has come from industry and
then how you look at you know,as you take a peek inside of our
world in higher education andwhere might you have some
(18:43):
recommendations or suggestions,right, it's always an evolution,
especially when you're tryingto bring some very traditional
universities forward or helpinguniversities evolve in these
times.
Where do you see thoseopportunities today?
Kamran Malik (18:56):
So they are, I think, many and varied, and I'll
put a I don't know if but isthe right word.
But you have a lot ofinstitutional immunity I will
use the word immunity, you knowto and resistance to change.
I think that will probably bethe single biggest undoing of
(19:17):
the higher education sector isthe inability to move quickly,
at pace as the market moves.
And so my biggest worry in allof this is outside of the, the
big brands, you know, the BUs,the LSEs, the OPSAs, et cetera,
of the world, like I do worrythat a lot of institutions are
sleepwalking into disasterbecause I do not see how they've
(19:40):
got a future, genuinely I don't.
So I look at let's look atcourse development.
Okay, so I can now withtechnology having, you know, 10
years ago or 15 years ago, whenI started my learning business,
I had a team of 80 instructionaldesigners, graphic designers,
guys who basically builtlearning programs, and I could
(20:01):
throughput maybe the equivalentof 10, 15 academic courses a
year, full-scale academiccourses a year.
Now I need a team of maybe 10to academic courses a year,
full-scale academic courses ayear.
Now I need a team of maybe 10to do the same throughput,
leaning in really hard ontechnology.
That's just the learningcontent creation.
Then you start looking at thetopics.
(20:22):
So I've gone from I had aconversation with one of my
clients a couple of weeks ago.
I've gone from thatconversation to a fully formed
curriculum which we are nowgoing to talk about next week.
So that's what?
Four weeks, from conversationone to fully formed curriculum.
This is how it will go.
This is the learning journey.
These are the interventions,this is the badging.
(20:44):
This is how it would work.
These are the gamified elements.
These are the bits where youcome together as a cohort to
learn All of that in four weeks.
That's.
You know, that's so far beyondwhere most academic companies.
Wendy Colby (21:05):
Well, in core instructional design in general,
right, I mean, there's been amodel around and the human
element, and how do you pairfaculty with instructional
design and all of that?
And you don't want that humanelement to go away, but you want
to kind of create, havecreativity and innovation and
efficiency right, that comes outof it to support the learning.
Kamran Malik (21:22):
And also part of this then goes into like the
ultimate mindset, which is for alot of my clients.
We's like we're just, we needto.
This is not what you deliver,is not the final outcome.
So you know much like a product.
What's the MVP, what's the MVPof learning?
And how can you then, over twoor three iterations of the
program or the first thousandusers, update, change, tweak, so
(21:43):
it gets better and better.
But if you can deploy mesomething in four, six, eight,
10 weeks that I can then movewith, that, that's great.
So that for me, I think, is abig shift.
The other big shift and youtouched on this, actually we, we
had some fun playing aroundwith stackability is why, you
(22:03):
know, is delineating the ideabetween accreditation and
content for 101, 101 levelcontent.
There is so much free stuff outthere, why do institutions
insist that it has to be there?
So you know, being anaccountant, double entry
bookkeeping, whether I went tothe LSE or Boston, it's the same
(22:25):
, and I can go on to YouTube andfind enough courses that are
right on double entry booking,as long as you put an exam at
the end where you're checkingsomeone's actual knowledge, who
cares where the content comesfrom, and so how open are
institutions to having a verydifferent approach?
And this is a real thing.
If I wanted to do this 10 yearsago ago and probably today,
(22:48):
there would be a one-yearnegotiation between, let's say,
abu and the lse to say, let'snegotiate the terms of this.
What would the page look like,what would the certificate look
like?
And by that time we've alreadygot three cohorts through it,
doing it a very live way.
So that speed and that abilityto innovate is there.
(23:09):
And I think the big thing that,for me, academia will probably
need to look at is risk aversion.
I do get risk aversion brand Iused to work for like an
accounting firm, so believe me,the auditor opinion of being a
qualified chartered accountantand auditor.
To myself, I get risk aversionand professional skepticism, but
it's now, I think, getting to astage where it's detracting
(23:32):
from the opportunity and theopportunity to educate, the
opportunity to help society beready for the future.
Wendy Colby (23:42):
And if you were sitting, Kam, on my side of the
fence here, you've been sittingreally on the side of industry
for a long time and you'relooking in the window here, and
I agree with so much of whatyou've said here, and we talk
about this internally tooagility, nimbleness, how to
structurally change things,which can be hard in a system
like this, where you have justyears of tradition and systems
(24:05):
that have worked in a certainway, and so I'm wondering you
know a lot of the way I view myown role here is on education
and how to best bring peoplealong, and so I'm wondering how
you think about that Again, ifyou were sitting in my seat,
what would you try to do to help, you know, university leaders
and academics and deans,together with students?
(24:26):
Frankly, because I think what'sdriving us a lot right now is
the changing behavior instudents right, who expect us to
be working in different ways,and can you comment a little bit
about that?
Kamran Malik (24:38):
Yeah.
So look again, with this thereare sort of the two let's call
it the carrot and the stick.
So the carrot is very clear.
It's like showing the art ofthe possible.
I think there is a whole thingand we do that.
We do this a lot with companies.
We've never actually it's funnyI've never actually done this
with our ed that we talked aboutthis before this idea of how
(25:00):
well do you actually understand,as a dean, the art of the
possible, what you can do, howquickly things can move, how you
can still retain control andownership, but how the
technology allows you to reallyfulfill what students want, what
clients want, the ability for astudent to you know like.
So take someone like me.
I struggle with large tracts ofacademic text.
(25:23):
If I use things like napkinai,which takes text and converts it
to infographics, I learn waybetter.
How much is that part andparcel of a tool that is out
there for students?
So you do nothing else but helpthem take PDFs and turn it into
easier formats.
Well, students with ADHD, thereare now tools out there that
allow you to bold certain wordsthat mean it's easier for you to
(25:47):
understand.
So you go from the very, verybasic.
Just take what you have and usethese tools to help the student
learn all the way through to.
I can take a student, I canidentify their skills gaps using
AI and I can come up with alearning journey for them that
is bespoke on how they learn, ondemand, with what they need,
(26:08):
based on all the content thatexists at BU.
Like that, and that is notsomething brand new.
I mean, that exists today.
There's a real like, there's aneasy play there.
So that's the sort of thecarrot look at what's out there
and work out what you can do.
The stick is the what are theKPIs?
(26:29):
Like you know, in a lot of myexperience, you know, tenure is
research driven.
The KPI has got nothing to dowith learning, skills
development, ability to get ajob in the job market and salary
in the job market's down to theresearch produced and so that
drives the behaviors.
So, and again, it's hard withtenure.
(26:51):
But you know you're I thinkyou're present that's having a
good go at shaking things upthere a bit.
It's like who is metric on theultimate kpi of getting a job
for a student?
Who is metric and whatproportion of academic salaries
are contingent on their studentsand the salaries they earn and
the jobs they get, becauseultimately, as I've said before,
(27:12):
if it's not metric, it's a niceto have, and so that's a
controversial view, but I'm surethere's a degree of human
behavioral, psychology andtheory in there.
Where's the metrics?
Wendy Colby (27:26):
I appreciate your bringing the business acumen
into this.
I think these are the kinds ofthings we do need to be thinking
about going forward, and I lovethese ideas.
You know, for those who may belistening here is how we start
to think about metrics aroundyou know students getting jobs
and what those salaries are, andcan we track some of those
things for you know, to measureour impact and success.
(27:48):
Okay, let me move on a bit.
I did want to make sure wereally touch on the global piece
of this as well, given how muchof this is in your own
wheelhouse and experience, camand traveling all over the world
and working all over the world.
I recently myself returned froma visit to India and it was, you
know, really staggering to me,right, the opportunities that
(28:10):
exist.
I think the number shared withme, just even on MBAs, that need
to be trained in India in thecoming years is over 5 million,
and they don't have the capacityto do that today.
And so, you know, asuniversities, we are also
starting to think about what dowe do differently globally?
Right, is it still aboutsetting up hubs in different
countries overseas, or are theredifferent models?
(28:32):
How do we expand our borders.
Certainly, we're doing thatwith online today, expanding our
borders, but how do we addresssome of these gaps, and I'm
wondering if you might have someadvice or counsel here too, on
you know best ways to approachthat yeah, that's interesting as
well and I think it's funny forme.
Kamran Malik (28:51):
I think there there has definitely been a
shift away from the export modelof the past.
So you know, again we go backmaybe 20, 20 years where you
know, the western institutionswere seen as the preeminent
institutions and so there was,you know, a ready business model
and money to be made frankly onexporting those that brand
(29:14):
overseas.
And you know it's funny, we'veactually seen it a lot in the
secondary school market as well.
So there are notable secondaryschools, I know.
I think last week rugby schoolin the uk, which is a private
school here, opened a branch outin Lagos in Nigeria.
So there are, you know, thatwhole export of education and
export of brand is definitely awell-trodden path.
(29:38):
For me I think the shift is topartnerships, and they've always
been around, so you've alwayshad things like sister
universities or other things,but it's a much stronger, more
symbiotic partnership on a muchmore equal footing.
It's you know who's got skin inthe game.
What are we jointlycontributing, adding a corporate
(30:01):
or a industry point of viewinto those partnerships?
And it comes back to what's thekpi.
What are we actually trying toachieve here and what's best for
the student?
Do most students come intothese institutions looking for a
job at the outcome, and if so,then let's pivot way more, and
there are some you know, I think, minerva doing a lot in that
(30:22):
space at the moment as well.
There are others who are doingmore in that space, like for me.
Always comes back to what's themetric we're trying to change.
How are we going to do it?
And also, I think you know, buand others have a great
opportunity to lift societalcapabilities through this too.
I think we talked before aboutthe you know 11 to 13 program.
(30:42):
I'm building all for ai skills,a freely available program for
everyone.
16 plus program it's where areyou know.
You've been big on likescholarships and the bursary
programs, but it's looking atwhat can we do to help society
as well.
That will have a trickle flowinto some of these programs too.
Wendy Colby (31:08):
Yeah, it's fascinating and I love that
you're starting to address eventhis K-12 market, right, and,
with these offerings, reminds meof, like, the Khan Academies of
the world, right, and now it'sabout AI, and so, while we're
addressing this from the highered spectrum, got to recognize
that this world is changing withstudents coming into university
today, right, so reallyimportant to be thinking about
(31:29):
that.
Kamran Malik (31:30):
So maybe I'll go ahead.
I think for this topic,actually, the bigger age gap is
the 40 plus.
Interestingly, the 40 plus areprobably more comfortable with
the idea of going back to auniversity um, other than the
online programs, and so it'sinteresting understanding that
market and like where you'replaying, where you're playing
(31:53):
there again, that far in thebelly is great if you know how
to navigate, where you need tonavigate to learn those skills,
and if you don't, you're awareof this big amorphous ai thing
that's taking over the world,but where do you go from there?
So I do think there's more tobe done there.
Let's not discount, you know,the Gen Xers like my good self,
(32:15):
who are there, ready and willingto contribute to society as
well.
Wendy Colby (32:22):
Yeah, you know what I think is really interesting?
You're touching on anothersubject that is near and dear to
my heart and that is aroundsegmentation and around the
portfolios, right, that we offer.
And so to your point right,there are segments which may
prefer online or hybrid orin-person, and how do we
(32:43):
accommodate those?
And then, in addition, it'salso back to your KPI point.
It's thinking about theportfolios of what we offer
today.
You and I were talking theother day about sort of the
growth of AI in business andwhere that could be taking us in
the near to long term.
So, just a moment on that.
I mean, as you think about youknow and I know we're thinking
(33:03):
deeply about this here too like,what do we offer?
Maybe some of the programs?
Kamran Malik (33:10):
that we've had in the past are not the programs we
should have in the future?
Yeah, definitely.
I think it comes back to what'sdriving and motivating
individuals.
So is the three-year degreeprogram a thing of the past?
Is the short, sharpintervention over periods in
your you know the lifelong BUskills programme?
You know where you effectivelyhave over the course of the next
(33:32):
20 years there are touch pointswhere you make sure you're sort
of kept up to date andupskilled.
I don't know, but I do thinkthere is a big shift, and it's
also a big shift in where andhow people learn, so it needs to
be in the flow of life.
Wendy Colby (33:52):
Ah, the flow of work and the flow of life.
Kamran Malik (33:54):
I like that.
So it's very much like how andwhere you learn different skills
and you know, in life, newparents you go from.
You know just the two of youquite happily walking into a
hospital one day, coming outwith this child.
I think Bob Keegan at Harvardtalks about the plateaus of
(34:15):
human development and howeffectively these life-changing
events cause a shift in theplateau of human development.
So the learning that parents gothrough is huge.
There's no play.
You might go to an NCT class,you might read, you know, the
Idiot's Guide to Parenting orwhatever.
But like you go through thisbig shift and change During life
(34:35):
.
There are these processes howcan and you know parenting is a
sort of left-field example, butyou know take that of starting
your own business or, you know,taking a new job.
How does society shape thesebig developmental lifts?
And where can academia getinvolved?
(34:56):
Should academia get involved?
Or actually does the role ofacademia change to be more honed
in on research?
That's the core business ofacademia.
And actually do we see a shiftwhere the ancillary learning
elements fall off and be pickedup by other places and academia
(35:16):
becomes a real targeted research, pushing humanity forward type
of institution?
You know these are bigquestions that I couldn't hope
to have the answer to.
Wendy Colby (35:27):
Well, wow, Kam, that might be a way to bring us
to a close here.
That has been, this has been afascinating conversation.
Is there anything else youwould like to share before we
close today?
Kamran Malik (35:39):
No, no, I think we've had a merry old journey
through the world.
Look some of my personalperspectives.
I do think you know you canlook at the world through a
utopian or dystopian lens, andyou know so.
Either, basically, ai andtechnology is going to take over
(36:01):
all our jobs and we'll all behomeless, or actually we will
grow and evolve through that.
I have a utopian view with acaveat, which is I do think
humanity will evolve, but weneed the fire in the belly and
the drive to do it, and I thinkwithout that we do risk the
dystopian view.
(36:21):
My hope is and you do see, I'mrefreshed every day when I go
and I see and I teach and I workwith folks, and I see people
grasping and hungry to learnthese new skills.
So I'd like to sort of finishby saying that I believe in the
utopian view, but there's a thinline between the utopia and
(36:42):
dystopia.
Wendy Colby (36:44):
Well, let's keep optimism alive.
I'm with you.
I am eager to partner with moreinnovators and collaborators
like you and really have enjoyedthis conversation and look
forward to all the great thingsyou're going to do, going
forward to help us get to utopiaCam.
Thank you, Wendy.
Thank you for joining us forthis BU Virtual Connects podcast
(37:13):
.
Special thanks to my colleaguesat BU Virtual and to our media
team who produces this podcastunder the leadership of our
studio director, George Vago.
To keep up with our BU VirtualConnect series, be sure to
subscribe wherever you listen toyour favorite podcasts.
You can also learn more aboutour portfolio of online programs
at BU Virtual by visiting bu.
(37:35):
edu/ virtual.
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