Dr. Sheena Burnell from the Ultimate Health Clinic graces us with her presence on this episode of Bubbles and Benevolence. Have you ever wondered about the secrets to a longer, healthier life? You'll be captivated by Dr. Burnell's journey in longevity medicine and the innovative steps you can take today to extend your lifespan. From our serendipitous first meeting at a clothing donation event to our shared passion for champagne, particularly the historic House of Pol Roger, this episode is both enlightening and heartwarming. Listen as Dr. Burnell recounts her visits to French vineyards and shares the touching story behind Pol Roger’s black label tribute to Winston Churchill.
Prepare for a journey into a world where medicine and art beautifully intersect. Dr. Burnell reveals her unexpected fascination with textiles and art, starting with Japanese woodblock prints and evolving into a rich collection of Chinese embroidered bound feet shoes. Her experiences living in China offer a unique lens on traditional Chinese medicine, merging personal interests with professional insights. This chapter is a testament to how personal hobbies can deeply influence and enhance one's professional journey.
Dr. Burnell's personal health journey takes center stage as she opens up about her battle with breast cancer and the transformative lifestyle changes that followed. From adopting a Mediterranean diet to integrating intermittent fasting, she shares invaluable health and wellness insights. Her philanthropic efforts, highlight the profound joy derived from giving back to the community. Join us as we reflect on personal growth and the essence of living a life of service, inspired by notable figures like Winston Churchill and Quentin Bryce. This episode promises to leave you inspired and motivated to lead a healthier, more fulfilling life.
Get your copy of Dr Sheena Burnell's Top 10 Tips for Longevity at www.hanworthhouse.com.au/podcast
Want to participate in the festivities of Hanworth's 160th Birthday? Visit https://www.hanworthhouse.com.au/whats-on to find out more
Have any questions for us? Send them through to podcast@hanworthhouse.com.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Bubbles and Benevolence, the podcast
where we pop the bubbles tosuccess and dive deep into the
benevolent hearts of those whohave achieved it.
In this podcast, we'll sit downwith successful business
leaders, philanthropists,non-profit workers and more to
discuss their journeys, thelessons they've learned along
the way, and how they're usingtheir success to make a positive
(00:20):
impact on the world.
So grab a glass of bubbles andjoin us as we explore the
intersection of business andbenevolence and discover what it
truly means to be successful.
Welcome back to Bubbles andBenevolence.
Today we're sitting down withDr Sheena Burnell from the
(00:41):
Ultimate Health Clinic to talkabout her career, her new
pursuit of longevity medicineand the simple things that we
can do to live a longer life.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I'm so thrilled to have a wonderful lady come and
be a guest on today's podcast,dr Sheena Burnell.
Welcome Sheena.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Thank you, marisa.
It is an honor and a pleasureto be here.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Oh well, it's a pleasure to have you, and I
think this is the first timewe're going to have a bit of a
medical take on things and alifestyle take, a bit of both, I
think, today.
But, sheena, of course wealways bring guests onto the
podcast because we always saywe've collected a lot of people
along the Hanworth journey, andyou are certainly no less one of
those.
(01:23):
Do you remember when we firstmet?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
I do, and it's funny you should mention Hanworth
because that's how we met,because, as you know, I do love
a wardrobe and I do love myclothing.
And I got this fabulous thingin the mail, this email that
said come and drop off myunwanted designer clothing.
And I actually thought I don'thave what is unwanted designer
(01:46):
clothing.
It's like unopened champagne,unblended champagne.
I then went over and met thiswonderful woman, marisa, and a
friendship began and a kind ofprofessional relationship as
well in terms of supportingHanworth.
So yeah, and that was about sixyears ago, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think it was, You're quite right.
And of course we've bonded overa love of bubbles, as well.
And this is the focus,obviously a little bit of a
subliminal focus of the podcastis we like to talk about how we
met, but we also like to talkabout how we celebrate together,
and one way we do celebratetogether is a mutual love of
(02:28):
some bubbles.
So what bubbles have youbrought in to share?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
with us today.
I bought some Paul Roger and Iyears ago did one of the famous
Bernadette O'Shea's champagneclasses.
I went in and I just thoughtthere was champagne that was
fancy and there were kind ofAussie bubbles and didn't know
the difference.
Total Convert, of course, likehalf of Brisbane came out, was
(02:53):
quite knowledgeable, discoveredI've got a palette for it, so
I'm actually quite good and wentinto this sort of champagne
competition and I did a coupleof trips to Champagne with
Bernadette and we, of courseshe's royalty.
So we went to the most amazinghouses and we were treated to
the most amazing experiences.
But the best one was Paul Roger.
(03:15):
She was really good friendswith Christiane, who was in the
family, and we had a couple ofmeals there and his wife cooked
for us which was really specialand just did simple French food
and it's an epinay which WinstonChurchill famously described as
the most drinkable address inthe world.
And the House of Paul Rogersupported Winston Churchill, or
(03:40):
rather he supported them, and infact when he passed away the
house changed its white sleevethe capsule that you would have
seen me take off to black andthat was black for 50 years and
they've only just changed backto white.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I never knew that, although I had seen the black
label.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And I never knew that was the story behind it.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
That's right.
I mean, you've got't drink alot of champagne and then
they've got the QBA Winston, sirWinston Churchill, and it's
very special.
So I'm also a bit of a WinstonChurchill fan, so it kind of
really was quite special.
But I think just the fact thatit was a family-run operation,
one of the few vineyards thathadn't been bought up by LVMH or
(04:24):
you know, those bigconglomerates Still operating
independently, and the beautifulChristiane who was just
gorgeous, we sang songs, thebathroom was hilarious.
When you went in it had one ofthose fish that does the don't
worry, be happy, don't worry.
And I sort of thought that's areally unusual thing to have
(04:46):
this rather impressive champagnehouse.
And I came out and I said toChristian oh, I love the fish.
And he said, oh yes, princeCharles gave us that as you do.
As you do Because there's alsoa connection with royalty,
because the royal houses lovepole.
So yeah, for me it was just areally special house and I
thought, well, I can't reallyafford the cuvee anymore and
(05:08):
they're very hard to get hold of.
Just the non-vintage is lovely.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I think it is.
It's my favourite champagnehouse as a whole.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I was so happy when you said that.
Actually I was really surprised.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Winston Churchill vintage champagne is my very,
very favourite champagne.
Really, yes, yes, um, champagneis my very favorite.
Really, yes, yes, and I mean,I've not got a sophisticated
champagne palette, I just knowwhat I like and what I don't
like, but, um, I like everysingle champagne they have in
their house, whether it's therose or the blanc de blanc or
anything, everything'severything.
And I was privileged enough togo there once as well, and I
(05:40):
remember my husband and I werein the ante room and they had
these three bottles ofincredible champagne.
And I said to him do theyexpect us to drink from those
three bottles?
And we thought they were goingto take them away.
So we had a good swill of eachone, and then somebody would go
out of the room and while theywere out we'd swill again, but
(06:01):
they had left it there for us tohave it was so generous and it
is such a beautiful building.
Oh, it's so gorgeous, isn't itso beautiful?
How privileged we are thatwe've both connected, not only
over Hanworth, but over ourmutual love of.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Poitiers, I did not know that about you, so that was
a lucky, lucky little thingCheers to our podcast and chat
today and the beautiful house ofPoitiers.
Absolutely beautiful and I wasvery sad.
Christiane did pass away a fewyears ago.
He had a very unusual dementiaso he passed away from that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So we can toast Christiane Exactly and the house
and the pleasure that I thinksharing a glass of bubbles
brings.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well, very much so, in fact.
I do remember a story that hetold when we were there somebody
, danielle his wife, had made achocolate mousse for dessert and
somebody said, oh, christian,you know what's the best
champagne to have with chocolate?
And he came out and he said, ah, it's the old cnc.
Question the old cnc.
And he said if it is goodchampagne and it is good
(07:04):
chocolate, a good meal.
Anything is possible.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That's true, and I just thought, you know, because
everybody gets a little bitfraught with this whole matching
, and I just thought, yep youjust enjoy it, and I think
sometimes it's the company andthe environment, isn't it, that
really determines whether or notthe experience is pleasurable?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
But just don't get precious Look at us from this
little podcast room.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
We love this new podcast room.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Thanks to Jamie for creating this wonderful space,
and how nice it is just to besharing a glass of something
cold on a fairly rainy dayoutside.
Now, sheena, you have had apretty checkered and incredible
history.
I've had an unusual medicalcareer.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I know I would say on resumes I have a unique skill
set.
So tell us about that uniqueskill set.
Well, I always wanted to be adoctor.
I was literally aneight-year-old, that just went.
That's what I'm doing.
I remember saying to my mothermummy, I'd like to be a doctor.
She said great idea, like whowouldn't want their daughter to
do medicine.
And so I sort of dabbled withother things, because I like
(08:07):
music as well and all sorts ofother things.
But I eventually, you know,just got into medical school and
did, did medicine and zoomedthrough that.
And when I became an intern, Irotated through you know,
various specialties and Irealized I wasn't going to be a
physician like your husband.
I certainly wasn't going to bea surgeon.
(08:28):
I did not enjoy cutting, andyet I love practical stuff.
And I did an anaesthetic termand I thought, oh, I quite like
this, I can do this.
And so I actually managed towheedle my way onto the training
program and I was the onlyperson in Brisbane to get onto
the training program that year.
(08:49):
So I ended up being aconsultant a year earlier than
everybody else.
I was quite young.
So I went through my four yearsof training, really enjoyed
anesthetics.
I then moved.
I was getting married to myfirst husband.
I was getting married, so I wasmoving, married to my first
husband.
I was getting married.
So I was moving to Toowoombaand I had a really good job
(09:12):
lined up there and I really verymuch enjoyed my first year as a
consultant.
But I also realised that Ineeded a bit more training.
So I ended up getting a job inSydney as a clinical fellow in
paediatrics.
So I did a year of paediatricsin Sydney, which was fabulous.
By this stage my husband wasdesperate to move to the country
and I was desperately doingeverything I could to put him
(09:35):
off.
And anyway we moved to Albury.
So he was a gynaecologist,obstetrician, gynaecologist,
obstetrician, gynaecologist.
So we had several years thereand it was great.
I was director of anestheticsbecause nobody else wanted to do
it and I was young andenthusiastic.
So I was director ofanesthetics, I was supervisor of
training.
(09:55):
I did a whole training programfor all the young doctors coming
up from Melbourne.
Um really enjoyed it,commissioned the new hospital,
all the operating theatres there, so so I had a great time.
I really in a small town, ifyou're enthusiastic and keen and
you're sort of happy to devotethe time, there's a lot to do.
So I was busy.
(10:16):
And then I met my secondhusband and he was really keen
to leave Albury.
He was an anaesthetist as wellin my group.
So we came back to Brisbane andI joined an anaesthetic group
up here because of courseeveryone knew me.
David's a very goodanaesthetist.
He got plenty of work and wewere here for a number of years
(10:37):
and then, unfortunately, thatrelationship kind of ended, I
don't know how to say it.
We are still very good friends,but we just it did end.
And then I went to China becauseDavid and I used to collect
Chinese textiles.
We used to go to Hong Kong alot on buying trips and I always
(10:59):
thought I'd love to go and livein Hong Kong.
I adore Hong Kong.
So when I saw him sort of youknow, like he found this really
great girl that really suits himso much better Isn't that
lovely when you can be happy forthem, oh, so happy, like once
he partnered with somebody else.
That really is great for him Iwas like, oh, this is fabulous,
(11:23):
so now I can go.
So I applied for a job in HongKong but we can't get
registration there.
So it's all to do with the factthat after handover the Hong
Kong government decided to makeit very difficult for other
doctors to get into Hong Kong.
The aim of the game was to keepout the Chinese the mainland
(11:43):
Chinese but in so doing theykept everybody out.
So it gave them a little bit ofa problem because they ended up
with no doctors anyway.
So I couldn't really work there.
And I was talking to acolleague who ran a training
program up there and he saidI've got a friend in Shanghai
who would really like a westerndoctor in his new clinic.
So I went to Shanghai, had lookaround, thought it was an
(12:07):
amazing city, and so I said okay, I'll take this job and I also
do injectables.
So I was also doing Botox andstuff like that at the time.
What?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
era are we talking about Sheena?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
That was about 2006.
So quite an early era forinjectables.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it was.
In fact I got a lot of pushbackon that because a lot of people
said it was regarded as veryfrivolous and a lot of people
sort of said, oh, you can't dothat as an anaesthetist because
you know you'll ruin yourreputation.
And I actually just thought,well, so what, I don't care.
(12:41):
I mean I was established, I hadgreat operating lists, great
surgeons.
I was established, I had greatoperating lists, great surgeons,
I was busy and I thought it wasreally interesting.
And it was great because it wassuch an unusual combination
that when I went to China andjoined this clinic I could do it
was a cosmetic clinic, so Icould do injecting and I could
do anesthetics, so yeah, so Iwent up and worked at that
(13:02):
clinic for a year and a half andit was all very interesting.
When I left I discovered theyhadn't registered me as a doctor
in China Whoops.
So it did cause some problemsbecause after that I was kind of
marked as this kind of dodgydoctor who kind of practised off
the radar.
So I'd gone from being on youknow committees and chairing
(13:26):
things and you know beinginvolved with standards, to
suddenly being this dodgy doctor.
Anyway, in China.
China was such a weirdexperience.
Like a lot of expats, I endedup doing stuff in China that
wasn't what I was trained to do,so I worked in sports medicine
clinics, I worked in a geriatricclinic.
I worked for a wine company asa brand ambassador for a while
(13:46):
for Hardee's and all that.
Tasting with Bernadette wasgreat.
I could lead a tasting.
I couldn't do it in Chinese butI had an interpreter, so I did
lots of stuff in the wineindustry as a professional,
which was really fun.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So I did tell you it was a checkered history.
We've obviously alreadyendorsed that fact quite clearly
.
But I also want to make aremark about how I think
sometimes you pursue a passionrather than process, because
that's obviously beendemonstrated by you as well.
I'm just wondering about yourlove for textiles, and where did
(14:22):
that come from?
I mean, you obviously loved itso much that you pursued going
to a different country aroundthat, and it seems to be such an
anomaly in terms of youranalytical mind.
And I think you did mention youliked music.
So what's this kind of sense?
I'm feeling about being veryanalytical, which I'm thinking
(14:43):
relates very nicely to yourability to take on champagne in
a way that demonstrated a greatpalette and also this wonderful
creativity.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
Nobody's actually asked me inthat way.
It was definitely something Iwasn't tuned into.
Before I met my second husband,I had collected Japanese, a lot
of Japanese woodblock prints,and I loved Japanese art, so
this was a sort of segue into adifferent art form.
(15:16):
David collected these thingscalled rank badges, these sort
of round things that havedragons and birds and things
that you see on Chinese roads,and he had a huge collection
which he actually gave to thepowerhouse in Sydney and it's um
.
Yeah, it's quite something, andI remember being on this buying
trip with him and being in thisum gallery and thinking I would
(15:41):
have bought 10 textiles in theamount of time it was taking him
to check out one, getting verybored, and I thought I really
want him to do this.
I don't want him to not bedoing it, I don't want to hold
him back.
So I thought I'll findsomething that interests me and
I saw a tiny, tiny little pairof embroidered shoes, these
little slippers, and I didn'tknow what they were and they
(16:04):
were quite expensive, so Ididn't buy them.
But we crossed across the roadto another antique shop in
Hollywood Road in Hong Kong andthere was a lady there, beatrice
, I'll never forget her and shesaid I used to wrap my uncle's
concubine's feet and she saidthese are bound feet, these are
(16:24):
for the little, tiny bound feet.
And I got really interested inthis whole thing.
So I bought a couple of pairsyou know tiny and then I did
more and more research and ofcourse you know I didn't just
collect the textiles, of courseI did do something academic.
So I've written articles aboutthem and I've given lectures on
my collection.
(16:44):
I used to go down to Hong Kongand lecture on it.
So I ended up with this hugecollection of the shoes, the
accessories, the little sewing.
I can barely sew on a button.
I am not a seamstress but Ijust I love.
It was the history and thewindow it gives you into a
culture, history and the windowit gives you into a culture.
(17:09):
So I would start my lectures onthe bound feet shoes by saying
I don't really support boundfeet.
It's not about the feet, it'sabout the shoes, it's about the
culture and the window into theculture and the fact that a very
sophisticated society did thisfor a thousand years and produce
some of the most exquisiteembroidery.
So a lot of the embroidery issymbolic.
So I liked all the.
I liked the symbolism, themeaning.
(17:31):
There's things called rebuseswhere when you put two things
together it means something else.
So it's sort of visual code.
So women would embroider theirshoes before their wedding and
send them to their mother-in-law, who would then look at the
shoes and say, yes, beautifulneedlework she'll do and it tied
(17:52):
in with Confucianism.
So the fact that you wereobedient, you weren't very
mobile, so you had to kind ofstay within the home and your
needlework showed that you werea dutiful daughter.
So it really fitted in withthese Confucian ideals that you
were this dutiful, quiet, docilewoman who wasn't going to be
(18:14):
running off anywhere because youcouldn't.
And that was Confucian societyfor 1,000 years.
It was really very interesting.
It's an incredible history.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And do you still have a lot of those?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
I've still got the shoes yeah, I don't put them out
anymore.
I used to have this.
Revy did one of my houses forme and I had this fabulous
display case, but it sort ofbecame a bit out of fashion.
So I don't have them outanymore.
But I do have other collectionsas well.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
All I can think about is grade three home economics,
yes, and I quite liked thecooking courses, but the
needlework courses were justdreadful and I used to get told
off all the time, so I don'tthink I would have been anything
dutiful about me had I been ina different culture.
I think I would have beenrejected by everybody on the
basis of what I produced.
(19:04):
It was just atrocious and Istill have been rejected by
everybody on the basis of what Iproduced.
Remember the work?
Yeah, it was just atrocious andI still have them in my
keepsakes and I just alwaysremember those days about home
economics.
At school so different now weactually did used to sew a
needle case, you know, put theneedles in on a Wednesday
afternoon, or the littlepinwheels that the pins went
around.
And my mother was a beautifulseamstress.
So for me to be completely nottalented at all was probably a
(19:29):
bit appalling to my mother.
But she was a wonderfulseamstress, so was mine, and I'm
like you, I can't even sew abutton on, so there is no talent
in that regard.
But tell me about living inChina.
Did this inspire you in terms ofdifferent forms of medicine as
well?
In terms of?
You had lots of other interests, but perhaps with your medical
(19:49):
career that then followed, doyou think that it was part of
the culture that really changedwhat you thought about?
Speaker 3 (19:56):
medicine generally.
I did it really, and it wasn'tso much because when I went
there, tcm, which is what theycall it, traditional Chinese
medicine wasn't that popular.
Strangely enough, the hospitalI worked in had a TCM department
, but it was literally on thetop floor stuck in a broom
cupboard and I even said to someof my colleagues oh, you know,
(20:18):
what do you think about TCM?
And they said, oh, we thinkit's witchcraft.
You know, we don't.
They, the Chinese doctors,didn't think much of it.
But I was there for seven yearsand it was interesting because
in that period of time I thinkthere was quite a push for China
to regain its sort of nationalidentity and its sense of pride
(20:40):
and all of a sudden anythingChinese became very, very.
They stopped being in awe ofWestern stuff and they really
started to get their Chineseshoes on and TCM became really
quite well regarded.
So by the time I left it wasvery popular.
But the thing that they werereally good at was Chinese
embrace, anything new.
(21:00):
So I worked in a couple of thisis what got me going.
I worked in a couple of stemcell clinics.
So I worked in a couple of andthis is what got me going.
I worked in a couple of stemcell clinics and that's when I
saw the really interesting stuffthat was all coming straight
from America.
Australia's not even on the mapin China.
So a lot of the US stuff andthe European stuff, the Swiss,
they really embraced it, theyreally took it on board.
(21:22):
So yeah, I worked for twocompanies One I worked in an
actual doctor-y sense and theywere basically doing stem cell
rejuvenation, so it wasintravenous.
And I worked for another clinicwhere I had to actually
masquerade as a Swiss doctor.
So it was a lot of that inChina, that you pretended to be
(21:43):
someone from another.
It was a bit awkward at times.
I don't know what they thoughtof my very broad Australian
accent, but I had to pretend Iwas a Swiss doctor at this other
company.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So it was an Australian doctor.
You didn't really rank amention there, but as a Swiss
doctor they would listen to you.
So what was that all about?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Well, australia is koala bears and, you know, like
a hot climate or barrier reef orsomething.
They don't really see Australiaas being a sort of centre of
medical excellence at all whichit is Whereas somehow in the
Chinese mind Switzerland is justlike this utopia and medically
(22:19):
it's like it cannot be.
And one of my girlfriends therewas a German surgeon and her
husband was a Swiss guy whoworked for Novartis and she said
you've got to be really carefulabout pretending you're Swiss.
And I said I know, but you knowthey just keep introducing me
as this Swiss doctor.
And so that was my last jobthere and it was basically just
(22:41):
a kind of acting modelling jobwhere I just got up and gave
talks in English about, you know, stem cells and the research
they were doing and then if theyhad celebrity VIP clients I
would inject them with stemcells and it was all very, very
strange.
But what I really enjoyed aboutit was it did make me start
(23:02):
thinking about different typesof therapy and some of the
doctors I worked with whotrained overseas were really
interesting.
They'd done these functionalmedicine courses, so I started
looking into it.
When I got back to Australia Idid have a little bit of time on
my hands.
So before I started back intoanesthetics here, I did a couple
(23:23):
of courses, started back intoanaesthetics here, I did a
couple of courses and then whenlockdown came and I saw that we
were not doing well, I suddenlythought I really, really want to
do something different.
So for many years doinganaesthetics, especially when I
had a lot of very overweightpatients or unwell patients, I
used to say to my surgeons we'reslowly killing ourselves.
(23:44):
Then COVID came and I thoughtwe're slowly killing ourselves.
Then COVID came and I thoughtwe're quickly killing ourselves.
We need to get onto this,because it was no secret that a
lot of people dying from COVIDwere overweight or not healthy.
I mean, some healthy peopledied too, but a lot of people
were not in the best of health.
So that's when I thought Ireally want to do something
(24:04):
totally different.
I'd been thinking about thisfor a while and I thought I'm
going to do it.
I'm just going to do it becauseI wasn't working, all my
clinics had closed down andbecause, you know, injecting
wasn't an essential service andI was doing a couple of
(24:24):
anaesthetic lists, but they weretiny and they closed down.
So I had all this spare time,so I retrained myself so what
did you birth during that time?
Oh well, a lot.
I discovered that there's nocourse for this, there's no
training course for this inAustralia.
We unfortunately, even thoughwe do have an excellent standard
(24:48):
of medicine, we're some yearsbehind other countries, so
there's no possibility to dowhatever you want to call it
integrative, functional,whatever.
So a lot of the doctorspracticing this type of medicine
, the GPs, who've just got thisincredible extensive knowledge,
but they have just bolted thatonto their practice because
(25:11):
they're already seeing lots ofpatients and there's a couple of
little courses you can do, butit's not like anesthetic
training or endocrinology orphysicians or anything like that
.
There's nothing formal.
So I had to find enough stuffthat I would educate myself up
to a level that I thought wasappropriate, which was really
hard because you know I wasmaking it up.
(25:33):
So it's been interesting.
Fortunately, one of my reallygood friends from Shanghai days
she and I sort of always jokethat we had parallel careers, so
she's younger than me and she'snow one of the world's foremost
longevity doctors, and so Iused her a lot as a resource and
(25:55):
she worked for a company thatactually set up a training
program.
So I did their training program, but they're based in
Switzerland.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
They really are based in.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Switzerland, but you're Swiss anyway, so of
course it makes you eminentlyqualified.
No problem with the language.
Yeah, so that was.
That was quite odd, actually.
So I've, I've done what Ithought I've.
You know, I've sort of educatedmyself sort of up to a level
that I think is in line withwhat the rest of the world is
doing, and I have done somebasics.
(26:25):
I've done a lifestyle medicinecourse here, as well as a
college of nutritional,environmental medicine.
So I've done as much as I canhere.
That's appropriate so.
But it's been interesting.
Certainly when I went andchanged my medical registration
and my medical defence, nobodyhad any category for me.
(26:47):
So I thought I'd just ring upand say hi, it's me, I'm not
doing anaesthetics anymore.
Can you just pop me into yourintegrative, functional,
whatever medicine category?
And they went we don't have one.
And I said well, what about allthe other doctors doing this?
And they, they went we don'thave one.
And I said what about all theother doctors doing this?
And they said we don't.
It's not a lot and they're allGPs and I think there's one
physician, so there's no onejust doing it as a freestanding
(27:10):
specialty.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
So tell me if I so.
I've always been intriguedabout, I think your practice
sort of embodies health andbeauty, sort of starting on the
inside, or is it?
It started off that way?
Is that how it started?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, it very much started with the, because I know
, you know, when I was doinginjecting I would get lovely
patients coming in, but some ofthe time I'd think nobody's
telling people about holistichealth.
So, you know, I used to thinkto myself look, I can put Botox
in until we're both blue in theface, but it's not helping your
(27:47):
skin.
You know, if you're not wearingsunscreen, you're smoking,
you're not controlling yourweight, you're probably eating a
lot of sugar.
You know there's no point doingall this.
You know, spending thousands ofdollars if you're not actually
nourishing.
So, yeah, I'd always had thatsort of aspect.
And I was really lucky too,because I grew up in the era of
Lady, the famous Lady Salento ohmy goodness, remember her and
(28:13):
my mum was quite a big proponentof that healthy style of living
.
So we were all these poor kidsat school with the brown bread
sandwiches and everybody hadwhite sandwiches with Vegemite
and we had brown bread withcheese and healthy stuff, and my
mum used to make her own bread.
She was really ahead of hertime and so we just thought
(28:33):
healthy food was normal.
And I remember when I moved outof home and was living with
sharing with other students, asas a student I had, like I think
I had a week where I just atejunk and at the end of it I felt
so appalling that I thought, ohno, I'm going back to my brown
rice and my and I've alwayseaten very healthily myself and
I do think it's, you know,important for the skin and the
(28:56):
rest of you.
So this kind of dovetailedquite well with just my
underlying philosophy of life.
Anyway, then my experience asan anesthetist, then my
experience as an injector, itall just sort of seemed to, and
then COVID, it all just sort ofseemed to come to this very
(29:17):
logical outcome why don't I havea practice that talks about
that for patients?
And then I, as I sort of didmore study, I kind of drifted
more into being reallyinterested in longevity and
that's what, because I sort ofhad a moment where I thought,
look, this is sort of okay, butI'm not sort of inspired and I
(29:41):
can't sort of see anything,that's kind of point of
difference.
And suddenly I started readingall these things about longevity
and I suddenly thought that'sinteresting, that's the science
and this is the cutting edgestuff that interests me.
So I don't certainly with mypractice I don't want to stray
into the.
You know no sort of shade onany colleagues, but not that
(30:06):
interested in the sort of theherbal remedies or the you know
anything a bit sort of weird.
I really just want to doevidence-based longevity
medicine and it's very niche inAustralia as far as I know.
I think I'm the only persondoing it, but it's basically
it's not extending your life to120, giving you 20 extra years
(30:27):
in a nursing home.
It's because everyone's sort oflike oh no, you know, do we
need to live longer?
You know we don't need morepeople living longer.
What it is is making youproductive right until you die
with your boots on is what I sayto my patients.
I want you to be and that'swhat people used to be like.
You know, years ago you didn'thave all these elderly, frail
(30:51):
people in nursing homes.
People worked and then theydied and I sort of want that for
my patients and it's now calledhealthspan, healthspan,
healthspan, healthspan asopposed to lifespan.
So, and it's just really goodbasic principles, but it's it
revolves around the way you live.
So it's your diet, movement,exercise, it's sleep.
(31:16):
It does focus a lot onspiritual and social connection.
I do talk to people about toxinload what they've got in their
kitchens, their bathrooms, theirperfume, their makeup.
So I really go right down intoareas that other doctors don't
have time to talk about.
It's almost like I'm super GP,because I really talk to people
(31:40):
about everything.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So do you do.
If I came into your clinic andI said, look, I'm really
interested in this whole idea oflongevity kind of based
medicine, is that what I wouldcall it?
I'm not sure.
I've heard you're doing somework in this.
You know what kind ofconversation would we have first
?
Yes, do you analyse everythingthat I do?
Yes, and what do we have first?
Yes, do you analyse?
Speaker 3 (32:00):
everything that I do.
Yes, okay, I always say topeople, I even You're afraid.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yes, you're very afraid I do.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
I call it my deep dive.
I know deep dive's a bit clichéthese days, but I call it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I need a sip of champagne.
I learn what Sheena's going totalk to me about on my first
appointment.
I need a sip before I embark.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
So I usually offer my clients two different ways, two
different pathways to see me.
One is Mr Buy Package, and Iwon't talk about the finances or
anything there, but basicallythey purchase a package and that
includes all interviews with me, all consultations, some
testing and diet plan andindividualized sort of like a
(32:38):
roadmap.
Or you can just see me like anormal doctor, just visit to
visit either.
Whichever way you choose, um,the first visit's usually like a
good hour and a half hour and aquarter and I talk to people
about everything.
So I do a huge fan of diet, soI do a really big dietary
history.
Because it's amazing the numberof patients who say to me
(33:00):
nobody has ever asked me what Ieat before.
And I'm like that's likerunning a car and and sort of
just randomly putting in anypetrol that happens to be
passing by, and especially withmen, the only way I can really
sort of communicate with men onthat score is I say it's a car,
(33:21):
your body is a Ferrari or aLamborghini.
You're not going to get leadedpetrol in there, are you?
And they go no, I said this ishow I want you to think about it
.
So it's amazing, I think thatpeople haven't been given a lot
of information about eatingproperly.
Australia is not too bad,anyway.
So I do the full, as I said, allthose things that I mentioned
(33:44):
before.
I do that for an hour and ahalf, then I work out what tests
I'm going to do, and I usuallydo a genetic test just to see.
So the genetic test I use iscalled Lifestyle DNA and that
basically looks at it's 110pages, so it looks at a lot of
stuff.
It doesn't tell me whetheryou're Armenian or Chinese or
(34:07):
something, but it does tell mehow you process carbohydrates,
saturated fats, polyunsaturatedfats, omega-3s, how you respond
to stress.
Tells me the number dopamineyou know, if you've got lots of
dopamine receptors or not.
Tells me about cardiovascularhealth, how you're going to age,
if you do have the longevitygene which some people have, uh.
(34:29):
Tells me how you respond toexercise, how you should
exercise.
Uh, it's, it's absolutelyencyclopedic and for me, the
once I've got that, that's theroadmap for me.
That tells me how you should beeating, how you should be
exercising, how you respond tostress, how you sleep, how you
(34:50):
should be sleeping, and a fewother genetic things as well
Whether you're prone to certaintypes of cancer.
It's really until I've got that.
I'm just giving people ageneral idea.
But once you've got that and wenow think that genetic
information is probably only 20%of the picture, some people say
(35:12):
a little bit less, some peoplesay more, but probably 20% is a
good working number.
80% is what's called epigeneticchange.
So that's what you do.
So I always say the genes arelike a piano that you can either
have your two-year-old playingor you can have a maestro Same
keys going to sound verydifferent.
(35:33):
And I always say that's whatyou are with your genes.
You can either be atwo-year-old and just plonking
away and making terrible music,or you can play it beautifully.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
And that's what diet, exercise, sleep, et cetera do
so now that I have all thisinformation about myself.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Well, that's just my first test.
We also do a microbiome.
I'm a huge fan of the gutmicrobiome.
I'm a massive fan of gut healthis, again, it's.
This might be the piano, butthe gut health is the gut
microbiome.
I'm a massive fan of gut health.
Again, this might be the piano,but the gut health is the piano
tuner.
So, whether or not your keysare being played in tune or not,
(36:09):
and I do various other tests, Ijust do basic blood tests.
So once we've done all that, Iusually do a big dietary plan,
talk to people about exercise.
I send them off to really goodexercise physiologists to get
them.
They don't have a plan going.
If I think they've got anythinggoing on with their sleep, I
(36:30):
send them off to a sleepphysician for sleep studies and
I do work with people.
So a lot of what I do afterthat initial thing is health
coaching.
So I then get people back andjust talk to them about making
these changes.
But once they've got thatroadmap, it kind of gives them.
I mean, totally up to them ifthey follow it, but I strongly
(36:50):
encourage people to follow andit's all.
Again, the microbiome.
It comes back and it tells youwhat we should be eating.
So it's really great.
And fortunately it usuallycoincides with the DNA and so I
quite often do diet plans,especially for I get a lot of
young male patients.
So I quite often, with theyoung men, I'll do a really
detailed diet plan, like guys intheir twenties and thirties,
(37:13):
because this is the cohortthat's interested in this stuff.
It's these young people.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Great.
I think it's fascinating.
We might take a little breakbecause when we return, I want
to ask you about perhapsanalysing how you've had a role
in this new shaping of anexperience for your clients or
do you call them patients?
I call them both, okay, both.
I want to ask you about, maybe,what you've learnt about
(37:41):
yourself in relation to, well,what have you changed in your
behaviours to actually startpursuing more of a longevity
style of function and practice?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
You are a very good interviewer.
Do that after the break.
You've got the best questions.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Hanworth House turns 160 on the 16th of July this
year, so head tohanworthhousecomau, forward
slash whatson to see how we arecelebrating and how you can be
involved.
We'd love to see you there andcheers to an incredible
milestone.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
So, Sheena, the reason I posed that question was
they probably can't ask youabout any particular patients
and what they've found out as aresult of engaging with you, but
I really thought it would belovely to talk to you about what
have you found out aboutyourself in terms of applying
some of these new philosophies?
And we'll probably kind ofpreamble that by saying I won't
(38:38):
ask you about sexual health andgoing down that kind of road,
but so we'll put that one to theside.
What about other things interms of what you've found?
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Look, it is such a good question and, as I said,
you know I sort of grew up inthat Lady Salento era and you
know brown rice and you know Iwas kind of a hippie at uni and
loved you know I've always lovednatural remedies and natural
health.
So I thought I was actuallypretty good.
I thought that I was eatingquite well and exercising.
(39:08):
I thought I was doing all theright things.
That was sort of slightlychallenged a few years ago when
I was diagnosed with breastcancer and that made me sort of
think quite a bit about was Ireally doing as well as I
thought in terms of health.
So that also got me down apathway of reading a lot about
(39:29):
healthy eating and anti-cancerand all that sort of thing.
But I was still quite sceptical.
But it was only when I actuallystarted to do sort of quite a
lot of academic research intothis area and I did courses with
organizations in the US and Ireally looked into the different
diets and recommended sort ofdiets for longevity that I
(39:52):
realized I wasn't.
I was doing an awful lot oflike.
I was eating pretty well but Iwas sneaking in a lot of stuff.
Like you know, I was havinglittle chocolates and you know
sausage rolls, rolls.
You know like I'd treat myselfand I suddenly realized I was
doing this a lot and I probablywas only eating well, like maybe
60% of the time, and the otherthing I wasn't doing was sort of
(40:14):
adding in enough, like you know, fiber, so vegetables, and you
know I've never been a big fruitand vegetable person.
I'm sort of probably moreprobably a bit paleo in some
ways, and I did do the paleodiet for a while, but I switched
over completely to actuallystraight Mediterranean diet,
which is the one diet that justcomes out on top every single
(40:34):
time in terms of longevity, noquestions asked.
I just went out and bought allthe stuff.
So now I eat a lot more pulsesand lentils and chickpeas and
lots of salad.
I keep protein Protein's aconflicted area.
There are some people thatthink we eat too much protein.
There are some people think wedon't eat enough protein.
It's particularly important interms of aging and preventing
(40:57):
frailty.
Frailty is just loss of muscle,so we really like our older
people to eat protein.
So, yeah, I really smartened upmy diet and I exercised a lot
more because I thought that mygentle walks were pretty good
and my occasional ballet bar orPilates, and I realized I wasn't
(41:18):
doing enough either.
So it really, and my sleep wasall over.
You know, typical doctor I was,you know I was so used to being
on call.
I think I went for years withlike four or five hours sleep a
night and you know I was verymuch from that era when people
sort of said I can get by withyou, you know, four hours sleep
(41:38):
a night, which I did for years,and you know, one of my husband
and I were on call, so one of uswas up and down and I suddenly
realised my sleep patterns wereatrocious and I was just used to
getting by with minimal sleep.
So I paid a lot of attention andin fact I listened to a podcast
this morning that said, ifyou're, you know, as a scientist
(42:00):
who runs this sort of lab inNorth America, she said if
you're really going to pick onething, pick sleep.
Now I've always said to peopleif you're going to pick one
thing, pick exercise.
And I still believe that.
But she said there's evidenceto show that it's not even sleep
duration, it's sleep regularity.
So same time at night, sametime in the morning, so it's not
(42:23):
even just I'm getting eighthours or whatever.
If those eight hours are allover the shop as well, it is
devastating.
She said there's not one partof your health that poor sleep
doesn't touch, including thingslike cardiovascular disease,
cancer, heart disease, that typeof thing.
So it's draconian.
(42:44):
So, yes, I really tightened upmy sleep.
Again, the social and spiritualI think I'd always placed a high
value on them, but it just mademe realize legitimize perhaps
this as being more important.
And again, the toxin load.
Again, perhaps this has beenmore important.
(43:04):
And again the toxin load.
Again, you tend to think thatif products are being sold, that
they've been tested and thatthey're okay.
And I discovered that mostproducts aren't tested and that
we just have this massive toxinload without realising.
It's like a, not an experimentin a sinister sense, but
post-World War II, when webecame much more industrialised,
we just get so many morechemicals into our bodies.
(43:27):
And this is the first time inthe history of humankind that
we've just sort of had thismassive onslaught of chemicals
that nobody's actually tested.
And I think that's responsiblefor an awful lot of our issues
at the moment and I think it'sgoing to be very hard to turn
that tide back.
So, yeah, so for me it was.
It was a really interestingjourney and I and also alcohol
(43:51):
I've obviously been very keen onthe you know, the champagne
thing and always I grew up in ahousehold where my mum always
had a glass of wine with dinnerlearned how to drink responsibly
and always loved it.
You know, for me it was part ofmy life, but that's another
thing.
I've really despite the fact Ienjoy it when I have it, but I
(44:11):
don't drink that often I regardalcohol as a condiment,
something I sprinkle on funoccasions Like today, Like today
, but I don't have it all thetime.
It's like you wouldn't have icecream every day.
Well, some people would, but Iwouldn't.
Yeah, so you know alcohol aswell.
I've sort of changed myrelationship with that a little.
Yeah, it's been really good forme and actually I feel really
(44:35):
good, I feel really healthy andI didn't get COVID.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Well, that's a a claim to fame these days.
I mean, most people have had itonce or twice and there's only
a few.
Even my husband is one of thoseand he says I've probably had
it, but I didn't know it.
But he was saying the samething, but it's a real
educational experience.
It sounds to me Very.
Working with you and working, ina sense, around issues around
(45:01):
longevity and understanding howone thing affects another in
your body, which I think is areally different way of a
doctor-patient consultation,isn't it in terms of our more
traditional GP sense?
Speaker 3 (45:14):
And I do.
You know.
I say to people this isdifferent in every single way.
It's not you coming in to seeme and me telling you what to do
.
It's I put you in the driver'sseat.
I make you responsible for yourhealth because you know, when
you think about it, you mightyou come and see me one day out
of 365.
I'm not with you the other 364.
And in fact you only see me foran hour maybe.
(45:37):
So I do see my patients quiteregularly.
I try to see them every threeto four months, but I really do
aim to make people proactive andmaking good choices and feeling
.
You know the old days of thepatriarchy of.
You know med school like evenwhen I went through it was very
much.
You know the patients couldonly know certain things.
(45:59):
You had to hide things frompatients because you had to
preserve the mystique ofmedicine and I remember then
sort of thinking it's for thebirds, like.
You know, the more we tellpeople and I'm a huge educator,
I love education so I think themore you educate people, the
better it is for all of us.
Like, the more we all knowabout everything, the better
things will run.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
So I'm going to take advantage of the fact that I've
got a great educator here withus today.
A Zenpick, yes or no?
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Zenpick's got a lot of work around it for some very
interesting things.
As well as diabetes and theobvious weight loss, I think the
exciting things for a Zenpicare more to do with, again,
longevity and to do withcardiovascular disease dementia.
There's some links there thatOzempic might prevent dementia.
(46:50):
Whether this is a separateaction of Ozempic or whether
this is related just to theweight loss and the blood sugar
control, we don't completelyknow.
I personally don't like it formy patients If they just want to
lose a small amount of weight.
It's not appropriate and it'svery hard to come off.
It's very hard to get offOzempic again.
So I think I would regardOzempic very much like a
(47:15):
diabetic medication, likeinsulin or a high blood pressure
medication.
If you really need it, I thinkit is a good idea.
But I wouldn't just put someoneon insulin for the fun of it
and I wouldn't put someone onjust to lose a few kilos.
So yes, and no asking forfriends asking for friends.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I also think there's a lot of bad kind of issues and
that you hear so much in mediathese days like intermittent
fasting.
Yes, it didn't work for me.
I did try it, yes, and yet Ilive my life like I'm on one
giant intermittent fast.
It was an easy lifestyle for meto have.
Yes, I'm very good at going along time without food, but it
(48:00):
just did nothing.
No weight came off.
So what's your feeling aroundintermittent?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
fasting.
That's exactly what most peoplesay, and in fact, there's a
very well-known doctor calledPeter Atiyah who works in the US
and he has a fabulous podcast.
His podcasts are two hours likeyou really need a lot of time
and he's released a book, thankGod, so it's a lot easier to
read.
And he talks about this in hisbook because one of the reasons
(48:28):
that we think intermittentfasting is good is not just
weight loss.
It gives the body time torepair and sort of eat up all
the dead cells and sort of like,get rid of all the junk, take
out the trash, whereas whenyou're just eating constantly,
the body doesn't have time to dothat.
I also did intermittent fastingfor ages.
I felt quite tired a lot of thetime.
(48:49):
I didn't lose any weight.
Yeah, I'm in two minds verymuch about intermittent fasting.
My current position is that Idon't recommend it because I
don't think it does anythingmuch for people.
I think it's better to, and infact, when people come to see me
, I think they're oftensurprised because I get people
(49:11):
to eat more, not less.
I think we've got a problemwhere people aren't eating
enough food, which might soundweird.
Sound weird, but I actuallycertainly in terms of the
microbiome and the genome.
I encourage more food, sodiversity, particularly big
range of food, not hugequantities, but just more
(49:31):
diversity and more sort of morechoice, abundance.
So you know, I try and sort ofinstill in people that eating
should be this joyous occasionand I'm always saying to people
make every meal value add.
I think if you are going to doand in fact what I'm more
interested in is somethingcalled caloric restriction,
(49:52):
which is sort of the other sideof intermittent fasting.
So intermittent fasting is justeating within a time window, it
does suit a lot of people, it iseasy to do, but again, I just
don't know if it's having thebenefits that we want.
So I think if you really want tosee those benefits of the it's
called my autophagy andautophagy where the body is
(50:14):
destroying all the old cells itdoesn't need, I think you're
probably just better off havingmaybe a weekend where you do a
little juice fast or a little,you know, have veggie broths or
something for a weekend.
I think like two or three daysis what's needed to really kick
that into action and the rest ofthe time just eat really well
and really diversely, but justnot a lot.
(50:36):
And the other thing too if youlook at societies where fasting
is really common, like Indianand all sorts of other Islamic
societies, when they do do theirfasting they eat in the morning
and then they'll eat quiteearly and then they'll not eat
for the rest of the day.
But most cultures have a goodbreakfast and then a decent
(50:57):
lunch and then a small dinner,and I think that's the way to go
.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Do you yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:03):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
I think that would be my ultimate lifestyle would be
to do that.
I think it makes a lot of sensejust from a lifestyle
perspective.
It's difficult in ourenvironment, I think, to have
that.
We all have this particular wayof raising families and
children.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
You know we've been, I guess, educated that you know
we have a meal together at night.
But I think it makes so muchmore sense that you've got more
activity around the kind ofheavy part of the day whenever
you're actually having thebigger meal.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
That's it.
Well, that's what I found isthat you know, when I was
because I was always, you know,brought up with a breakfast got
to have a solid breakfast beforeyou go to school, uni, or
whatever the breakfast.
You've got to have a solidbreakfast before you go to
school, uni, or whatever.
And then when I cut breakfastout, I was literally dragging
myself to lunch and thinking Ihad no energy.
So I've, I actually sent myfriend Michael a text you know,
michael, you know because he's agastroenterologist and I said I
(51:56):
think that breakfast is a newbreakfast and I think it's just
so much better for you.
You know your blood glucose andyour biomes and I just think
it's.
Yeah, it's funny, it's one ofthose old adage, old housewives,
adage, things that you sort ofthink actually there is some
truth in it.
So, yes, I've reintroduced.
(52:17):
And there's actually a famousguy called David Sinclair who's
the father of longevity medicine.
And he's actually a famous guycalled David Sinclair who's the
father of longevity medicine,and he's actually an Aussie,
he's a scientist, he's ageneticist who's now got this
big research facility at Yaleand he's a big fan of one meal a
day, which I've also tried.
And that is really punishing,because all you think about is
(52:37):
food for at least 12 hours andthen you have this meal and it's
like huge because you've got toget enough nutrition in that
one meal.
But I discovered that heactually does have a breakfast.
He has yogurt with berries,which I think is almost like the
ideal breakfast.
So, yeah, I mean I can'tbreakfast like a king, you know,
(52:58):
lunch like a queen or that sortof thing, but I do try and have
something for breakfast and Ido try and have something for
lunch and the really, you know,the message, as I said, that I
have for all my patients is makeit nice.
You know, don't have some sadprotein shake or something out
of a packet.
Just put something on sometoast.
(53:19):
You know, get the best you canafford and even if it's just
some avocado with some seeds andyou know, a little bit of
hazelnut oil or just somethingto jazz it up, just try and
value out every meal.
Just think what else.
You know what else can I throwonto this?
So, and I'm not a fan ofsmoothies either, because I
think we need to chew.
I think our ancient ancestorschewed, and food is metabolised
(53:45):
completely differently if youchew it rather than whir it in a
blender.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Well, that's an interesting perception.
I'm going to have a whole newrelationship with my green
smoothie tomorrow.
Now, after you're saying that Ineed to chew it, I'll just put
all the celery and stuff and thespinach and I'll take an hour
to go to work tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
That's right.
We have the green vegetablesExactly Hold on, exactly Well.
I did green smoothies for agesand I have to say it's fabulous
for your skin because you'rejust getting so much greenery.
But again, we sort of thinkthat I can't remember what
they're called, but they'relittle packets that the
nutrition in, like nuts andseeds and plants, it comes in
(54:24):
little wee packets, you know, inthe cells and all that sort of
thing, and we think that whenyou chew you can't completely
break the packets down becausethey're quite fibrous.
So when you absorb the food youyou get most of the nutrition
but not all.
But it's sort of like in a timerelease.
So it's like a time releasecapsule.
Like you know, some medications, a stage like that, is designed
(54:47):
to sort of release slowly as itgoes through various parts of
the gut.
And we think that this is whathappens with food.
You know we start the processwith chewing and it goes down to
the stomach and certain thingshappen.
Then it goes to the small boweland the large intestine and
that's where a lot of the actionhappens, with toxins and
various hormones and vitaminsbeing absorbed or not absorbed
(55:09):
or manufactured or whatever.
So it's quite complex.
But we think that if things arein these little packets, that's
what they're meant to, that'stheir little time release,
whereas when we blitz them,they're all out there and they
get into the stomach and perhapsget absorbed differently.
So, yeah, and even things likethe fats in nuts, if you just
(55:32):
eat nuts, you will absorb farless, because people because I'm
a big fan of nuts they'reassociated with longevity and
you're always like, oh, I'mgoing to put on weight, but in
fact you only get about 30% to60% of the fats if you just eat
them normally as opposed toblending them.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Gosh.
I'm learning so much today, soI have one other kind of
conversation lots of people arehaving about full-body MRIs.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Yeah, they're really interesting.
I think if money was no objectand we had MRI scanners whirring
hot on every corner and we hada massive healthcare surplus
where we could just afford this,and we had loads and loads and
loads of genetic counsellors andoncologists, it would be great.
But they're expensive.
(56:17):
I mean they're not outrageouslyexpensive, but I think for
everyone to have them.
But it's like all these tests,when you do it, you've they're
expensive.
I mean they're not outrageouslyexpensive, but I think for
everyone to have them.
But it's like all these tests,when you do it, you've got to be
prepared to deal with theknowledge.
And it's that question.
It's the same when I do the DNAtest, which a lot of people
would be a little bit like whoa,you know why are you doing this
DNA thing?
For me, it's my roadmap.
But I think, yeah, we're alwaystaught when we're interns like
(56:43):
don't you know?
Only order a test if it's goingto change the outcome.
So this would be a test where,if I saw something, what would I
do?
Would I say to a patient look,we've picked up something in
your spine.
Um, that means you might have asecondary answer.
Gosh, now we've got to golooking for a primary.
(57:05):
So that would mean you knowbiopsies and colonoscopies, and
you know it would mean a lot ofother tests, and it's a really
interesting question that we'vehad in medicine for a long time.
It's this question of falsepositives and breast cancer,
particularly because that's beenso well researched.
But is it really worth doing alot of investigating to get
(57:28):
results that perhaps aren'tactually positive but put the
patient through a lot of testingto sort of find that out?
If I have a patient who wantsit, I don't talk them out of it,
I just give them a.
You know, write them up for it.
But very few of my patientshave asked for it so far.
They do ask for someinteresting things, though.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
I can imagine what's the most interesting thing
you've ever been asked for.
Speaker 3 (57:53):
Well, I get a lot of people asking me for things
called DEXA scans, which arelike the scans we use for bone
density and they're really goodbecause they tell you the amount
of fat you've got and where itis and whether it's visceral or
you know.
I don't want to know the answerto that.
No, I don't want that answereither.
And I say to people unlessyou're an elite athlete, it's
really not going to change mymanagement of you and I can tell
(58:15):
.
After you know, 30 years ofbeing in an operating theatre
and putting people off to sleep,I can guess people's weight
quite accurately, and I can alsoguess pretty accurately how
much of that is fat, becausethat actually pertains to how
much anaesthetic we give them.
So I'm sort of pretty good atguessing that there's going to
be a certain amount of fat.
(58:36):
So, yeah, look, if peoplereally want it again, I can send
them off somewhere that will doit, but I don't offer it as a
routine service.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Well, as my elite athletic days are probably over
or, perhaps, more realistically,never actually began.
I think that that's been afascinating conversation, sheena
.
Thank you so much for sharingall of that today, but let's go
and talk about something that Ido understand just a little bit
of how, about the world ofphilanthropy and giving, because
(59:05):
I do know.
Actually, before I do that, Ihave to remark on two things.
Lady Salento's niece lived atHanworth when we bought it 10
years ago.
I know so what an interestingconnection with us.
Of course, we've both hadbreast cancer, sadly, another
another connection as well, butI was just going to share that
with you because I don't thinkyou knew they were actually
(59:26):
renting the house from theAnglican Church of Australia,
and so there's another littleconnection there.
But let's go back tophilanthropy and doing good for
the community which you're verygood at and I think I might hop
back to your absolute interestin the arts.
You said you were very creative.
We can see that in your love oftextiles and you said, I think
(59:46):
at the very beginning of ourchat today, how interested you
were in music.
Speaker 3 (59:49):
I do, I must admit.
When we were growing up we hadmusic lessons, like kids did or
do.
And I always joke to my brother, who is an actual musician, who
played with the AdelaideSymphony for many years.
I always joke that I alwaysthought I was a musical child
because I was really good at thepiano, I was really good at
ballet, I loved all that sort ofstuff.
But I would rather gnaw my legoff than perform publicly.
(01:00:14):
I really do not have thatperformance thing, whereas my
brother's excellent.
So yeah, but I still love music.
And when I came back from China,I realised that I had to stay
in Brisbane because I had quitelong-term treatment and I
thought, well, I never thoughtI'd come back to Brisbane, I
(01:00:35):
thought I'd left Australiaactually, and I thought, well,
you know, I'm here, I'll putsomething back in.
I'm, that's just how I think.
I thought, well, you know, ifyou stuck it, you've got to do
something.
So I, long story short, I sortof looked around for something
to do and I thought, well, oneway you can really support the
arts is to get a group of peopletogether and if they just put
(01:00:59):
some money in, it makes a decentchunk of money for an artist.
So I spoke to various artsbodies and I eventually ended up
with the conservatorium for afew years and then COVID hit,
got a bit sort of difficult.
But lately we've just so I'vegot about seven or eight people
in this group.
(01:01:20):
They're call arts assets and wejust put, you know, $1,000 in
each year and there's somedoctors and there's some
non-doctors, but it just meansthat there's like a decent sum
of money and then we can sort ofchoose what we're going to do
for that particular year.
So this year we're looking atthe QSO Academy, which is this
(01:01:42):
fabulous thing that's been setup by Immance Larsons, who's one
of the cellists.
He's a principal cellist withQSO and it's students from QSO
and from the ConservatoriumSorry, from Queensland Uni Music
Department and Conservatorium.
So it's been very hard becausethey're traditionally always
(01:02:03):
very separate.
So we went to a concert at theend of last year and it was just
fabulous.
So these young kids are alreadyplaying a little bit with the
orchestra.
But they're also looking atjobs interstate.
So it gives them master classesand interview practice and all
the stuff that I had when I wasa trainee as a as an
anaesthetist.
It's like a registrar programbut a little bit short.
(01:02:25):
So probably supporting that, andI also support some projects at
UQ in the medical side ofthings, for me philanthropy is
just a no-brainer.
It's like I don't know nobodyelse in my family is
particularly, but for me it'sjust a I don't know, just it's
like gives me the most pleasure.
(01:02:47):
It's ridiculous.
My accountant hates me becauseI feel I really enjoy giving
money to people.
Don't ask me why, but it's justfor me.
It's just like what you do,it's like service and you know,
I think for me, me, service isjust like a very big thing is,
and that's why I like this areaof medicine that I'm in.
(01:03:09):
It's it's just making peopletheir best selves and it's, you
know, for me it's like servingthe community.
You know, if we can get allthese people healthy and
functioning well and not takingup resources, then job, job,
well done and I thought, from avery kind of, uh, strategic
perspective, we started theconversation around winston
(01:03:30):
churchill, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
and one of the most beautiful quotes is you make a
living by what you get, but youmake a life by what you give.
And I thought how apt it was tobring winston back into our
conversation, because being theWinston Churchill champagne is
my favourite.
I wonder if there's a bit ofhis kind of sentiment in there,
because that's always a quotethat I've lived by.
Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
I did not know that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Quote from him.
I think that's just a lovelyway to bring that conversation
around giving and getting to abeautiful kind of close Before
we ask two wonderful questionsthat we ask of all of our guests
, and I'm always intrigued andexcited about what I'm going to
hear.
But you seem to be theeffervescent young child.
(01:04:13):
But what would you like to bewhen you grow up?
Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
I gave some thought to this question and still
didn't have much of an answer.
Apart from wanting to beQuentin Bryce when I grow up, I
think everybody wants to beQuentin.
It's such a good question but Idon't have a particularly ready
answer, but hopefully just amore well-rounded and educated
(01:04:39):
and sort of kind version oftoday.
I regard myself very much as awork in progress.
So yeah, there's no specificperson but just a.
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
You know, what is it about Quentin that attracts you
as a kind of remark about?
I just want to be Quentin.
Price yes.
Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
Well, to me she just embodies that graciousness as
well as clearly a brilliant mind.
But the thing that I love abouther is because I know one of
her daughters quite well, revyis the generosity that she
allows her children to bethemselves.
(01:05:17):
She's allowed them to createtheir own careers and she's just
so supportive of people I meanvery much women, as we know, but
just supportive of people intheir journey, and I know she's
got tremendous sort of otherachievements.
Of course we know that.
But there's just a kind ofkindness and bigness about her
(01:05:43):
personality that I just reallylove.
And when I say big, I don'tmean like a loud, noisy big
personality, I mean just thatsort of I don't know, I can't
I'm looking for the word, butgraciousness, she's just grace
Class act.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
She is, and there's a Quentin room at Hanworth named
after her.
So again, we're kind of drawingthe connections back to the
house, which was the reason wemet, which is the reason we're
here today.
And life's like that, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
in lots of ways, yeah , and I love those little
connections and serendipitiesand I've always had them, ever
since I was a kid.
I was quite intrigued thatthings would sort of loop back
on themselves and sort ofinterrelate.
I've always loved that aspectof life I agree, you're very
into analysis and patterns, Ithink so on that pattern.
Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Note what brings you happiness.
Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
I think giving other I know this sounds horribly
corny Pollyanna-ish, but makingother people happy really is my
thing.
I really like getting peoplewell.
That makes me extremely happyand, yeah, I really like people
to be comfortable and and calmand happy in themselves.
That that's really my thing.
Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
I love that well, there's nothing wrong with
Pollyanna and I think, on thatnote, I'd love to use the
beautiful Pollyanna, which isone of my favorite books as a
child.
I've still got my hard copyplastic covered editions.
My mother used to cover all mypast my books in plastic and
I've still got the one.
I think when I was seven I gotthat book, which is a long time
(01:07:21):
ago now, and it was one of myfavorite books, along with Anne
of Green Gables when I wasgrowing up.
I was massive, me too.
Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Just devoured those books, me too.
Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
So, on that very happy note, with our beautiful
glass of champagne, sheena,thank you so much for coming on
the podcast today, sharing yourwonderful gems of wisdom with us
and giving us all, I think,something to think about.
Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Thank you for joining us and for making it this far.
We have a special treat for youHead to hanworthhousecomau
forward slash podcast to getyour hands on Dr Sheena's top 10
tips for longevity.
To make an appointment forspecialised help, you can head
to ultimatehealthcliniccomau.
(01:08:07):
All these links will be in theepisode description.
We hope you enjoyed our chatwith Dr Sheena Burnell today and
, as usual, if you have anyquestions, you can send them
through to podcast athanworthhousecomau.
We'll be back soon with anotherspecial guest.
Cheers, cheers.
Welcome to Bubbles and Benevolence, the podcast
where we pop the bubbles tosuccess and dive deep into the
benevolent hearts of those whohave achieved it.
In this podcast, we'll sit downwith successful business
leaders, philanthropists,non-profit workers and more to
discuss their journeys, thelessons they've learned along
the way, and how they're usingtheir success to make a positive
(00:20):
impact on the world.
So grab a glass of bubbles andjoin us as we explore the
intersection of business andbenevolence and discover what it
truly means to be successful.
Welcome back to Bubbles andBenevolence.
Today we're sitting down withDr Sheena Burnell from the
(00:41):
Ultimate Health Clinic to talkabout her career, her new
pursuit of longevity medicineand the simple things that we
can do to live a longer life.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I'm so thrilled to have a wonderful lady come and
be a guest on today's podcast,dr Sheena Burnell.
Welcome Sheena.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Thank you, marisa.
It is an honor and a pleasureto be here.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Oh well, it's a pleasure to have you, and I
think this is the first timewe're going to have a bit of a
medical take on things and alifestyle take, a bit of both, I
think, today.
But, sheena, of course wealways bring guests onto the
podcast because we always saywe've collected a lot of people
along the Hanworth journey, andyou are certainly no less one of
those.
(01:23):
Do you remember when we firstmet?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
I do, and it's funny you should mention Hanworth
because that's how we met,because, as you know, I do love
a wardrobe and I do love myclothing.
And I got this fabulous thingin the mail, this email that
said come and drop off myunwanted designer clothing.
And I actually thought I don'thave what is unwanted designer
(01:46):
clothing.
It's like unopened champagne,unblended champagne.
I then went over and met thiswonderful woman, marisa, and a
friendship began and a kind ofprofessional relationship as
well in terms of supportingHanworth.
So yeah, and that was about sixyears ago, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think it was, You're quite right.
And of course we've bonded overa love of bubbles, as well.
And this is the focus,obviously a little bit of a
subliminal focus of the podcastis we like to talk about how we
met, but we also like to talkabout how we celebrate together,
and one way we do celebratetogether is a mutual love of
(02:28):
some bubbles.
So what bubbles have youbrought in to share?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
with us today.
I bought some Paul Roger and Iyears ago did one of the famous
Bernadette O'Shea's champagneclasses.
I went in and I just thoughtthere was champagne that was
fancy and there were kind ofAussie bubbles and didn't know
the difference.
Total Convert, of course, likehalf of Brisbane came out, was
(02:53):
quite knowledgeable, discoveredI've got a palette for it, so
I'm actually quite good and wentinto this sort of champagne
competition and I did a coupleof trips to Champagne with
Bernadette and we, of courseshe's royalty.
So we went to the most amazinghouses and we were treated to
the most amazing experiences.
But the best one was Paul Roger.
(03:15):
She was really good friendswith Christiane, who was in the
family, and we had a couple ofmeals there and his wife cooked
for us which was really specialand just did simple French food
and it's an epinay which WinstonChurchill famously described as
the most drinkable address inthe world.
And the House of Paul Rogersupported Winston Churchill, or
(03:40):
rather he supported them, and infact when he passed away the
house changed its white sleevethe capsule that you would have
seen me take off to black andthat was black for 50 years and
they've only just changed backto white.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I never knew that, although I had seen the black
label.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And I never knew that was the story behind it.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
That's right.
I mean, you've got't drink alot of champagne and then
they've got the QBA Winston, sirWinston Churchill, and it's
very special.
So I'm also a bit of a WinstonChurchill fan, so it kind of
really was quite special.
But I think just the fact thatit was a family-run operation,
one of the few vineyards thathadn't been bought up by LVMH or
(04:24):
you know, those bigconglomerates Still operating
independently, and the beautifulChristiane who was just
gorgeous, we sang songs, thebathroom was hilarious.
When you went in it had one ofthose fish that does the don't
worry, be happy, don't worry.
And I sort of thought that's areally unusual thing to have
(04:46):
this rather impressive champagnehouse.
And I came out and I said toChristian oh, I love the fish.
And he said, oh yes, princeCharles gave us that as you do.
As you do Because there's alsoa connection with royalty,
because the royal houses lovepole.
So yeah, for me it was just areally special house and I
thought, well, I can't reallyafford the cuvee anymore and
(05:08):
they're very hard to get hold of.
Just the non-vintage is lovely.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I think it is.
It's my favourite champagnehouse as a whole.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I was so happy when you said that.
Actually I was really surprised.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Winston Churchill vintage champagne is my very,
very favourite champagne.
Really, yes, yes, um, champagneis my very favorite.
Really, yes, yes, and I mean,I've not got a sophisticated
champagne palette, I just knowwhat I like and what I don't
like, but, um, I like everysingle champagne they have in
their house, whether it's therose or the blanc de blanc or
anything, everything'severything.
And I was privileged enough togo there once as well, and I
(05:40):
remember my husband and I werein the ante room and they had
these three bottles ofincredible champagne.
And I said to him do theyexpect us to drink from those
three bottles?
And we thought they were goingto take them away.
So we had a good swill of eachone, and then somebody would go
out of the room and while theywere out we'd swill again, but
(06:01):
they had left it there for us tohave it was so generous and it
is such a beautiful building.
Oh, it's so gorgeous, isn't itso beautiful?
How privileged we are thatwe've both connected, not only
over Hanworth, but over ourmutual love of.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Poitiers, I did not know that about you, so that was
a lucky, lucky little thingCheers to our podcast and chat
today and the beautiful house ofPoitiers.
Absolutely beautiful and I wasvery sad.
Christiane did pass away a fewyears ago.
He had a very unusual dementiaso he passed away from that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So we can toast Christiane Exactly and the house
and the pleasure that I thinksharing a glass of bubbles
brings.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well, very much so, in fact.
I do remember a story that hetold when we were there somebody
, danielle his wife, had made achocolate mousse for dessert and
somebody said, oh, christian,you know what's the best
champagne to have with chocolate?
And he came out and he said, ah, it's the old cnc.
Question the old cnc.
And he said if it is goodchampagne and it is good
(07:04):
chocolate, a good meal.
Anything is possible.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That's true, and I just thought, you know, because
everybody gets a little bitfraught with this whole matching
, and I just thought, yep youjust enjoy it, and I think
sometimes it's the company andthe environment, isn't it, that
really determines whether or notthe experience is pleasurable?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
But just don't get precious Look at us from this
little podcast room.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
We love this new podcast room.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Thanks to Jamie for creating this wonderful space,
and how nice it is just to besharing a glass of something
cold on a fairly rainy dayoutside.
Now, sheena, you have had apretty checkered and incredible
history.
I've had an unusual medicalcareer.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I know I would say on resumes I have a unique skill
set.
So tell us about that uniqueskill set.
Well, I always wanted to be adoctor.
I was literally aneight-year-old, that just went.
That's what I'm doing.
I remember saying to my mothermummy, I'd like to be a doctor.
She said great idea, like whowouldn't want their daughter to
do medicine.
And so I sort of dabbled withother things, because I like
(08:07):
music as well and all sorts ofother things.
But I eventually, you know,just got into medical school and
did, did medicine and zoomedthrough that.
And when I became an intern, Irotated through you know,
various specialties and Irealized I wasn't going to be a
physician like your husband.
I certainly wasn't going to bea surgeon.
(08:28):
I did not enjoy cutting, andyet I love practical stuff.
And I did an anaesthetic termand I thought, oh, I quite like
this, I can do this.
And so I actually managed towheedle my way onto the training
program and I was the onlyperson in Brisbane to get onto
the training program that year.
(08:49):
So I ended up being aconsultant a year earlier than
everybody else.
I was quite young.
So I went through my four yearsof training, really enjoyed
anesthetics.
I then moved.
I was getting married to myfirst husband.
I was getting married, so I wasmoving, married to my first
husband.
I was getting married.
So I was moving to Toowoombaand I had a really good job
(09:12):
lined up there and I really verymuch enjoyed my first year as a
consultant.
But I also realised that Ineeded a bit more training.
So I ended up getting a job inSydney as a clinical fellow in
paediatrics.
So I did a year of paediatricsin Sydney, which was fabulous.
By this stage my husband wasdesperate to move to the country
and I was desperately doingeverything I could to put him
(09:35):
off.
And anyway we moved to Albury.
So he was a gynaecologist,obstetrician, gynaecologist,
obstetrician, gynaecologist.
So we had several years thereand it was great.
I was director of anestheticsbecause nobody else wanted to do
it and I was young andenthusiastic.
So I was director ofanesthetics, I was supervisor of
training.
(09:55):
I did a whole training programfor all the young doctors coming
up from Melbourne.
Um really enjoyed it,commissioned the new hospital,
all the operating theatres there, so so I had a great time.
I really in a small town, ifyou're enthusiastic and keen and
you're sort of happy to devotethe time, there's a lot to do.
So I was busy.
(10:16):
And then I met my secondhusband and he was really keen
to leave Albury.
He was an anaesthetist as wellin my group.
So we came back to Brisbane andI joined an anaesthetic group
up here because of courseeveryone knew me.
David's a very goodanaesthetist.
He got plenty of work and wewere here for a number of years
(10:37):
and then, unfortunately, thatrelationship kind of ended, I
don't know how to say it.
We are still very good friends,but we just it did end.
And then I went to China becauseDavid and I used to collect
Chinese textiles.
We used to go to Hong Kong alot on buying trips and I always
(10:59):
thought I'd love to go and livein Hong Kong.
I adore Hong Kong.
So when I saw him sort of youknow, like he found this really
great girl that really suits himso much better Isn't that
lovely when you can be happy forthem, oh, so happy, like once
he partnered with somebody else.
That really is great for him Iwas like, oh, this is fabulous,
(11:23):
so now I can go.
So I applied for a job in HongKong but we can't get
registration there.
So it's all to do with the factthat after handover the Hong
Kong government decided to makeit very difficult for other
doctors to get into Hong Kong.
The aim of the game was to keepout the Chinese the mainland
(11:43):
Chinese but in so doing theykept everybody out.
So it gave them a little bit ofa problem because they ended up
with no doctors anyway.
So I couldn't really work there.
And I was talking to acolleague who ran a training
program up there and he saidI've got a friend in Shanghai
who would really like a westerndoctor in his new clinic.
So I went to Shanghai, had lookaround, thought it was an
(12:07):
amazing city, and so I said okay, I'll take this job and I also
do injectables.
So I was also doing Botox andstuff like that at the time.
What?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
era are we talking about Sheena?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
That was about 2006.
So quite an early era forinjectables.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it was.
In fact I got a lot of pushbackon that because a lot of people
said it was regarded as veryfrivolous and a lot of people
sort of said, oh, you can't dothat as an anaesthetist because
you know you'll ruin yourreputation.
And I actually just thought,well, so what, I don't care.
(12:41):
I mean I was established, I hadgreat operating lists, great
surgeons.
I was established, I had greatoperating lists, great surgeons,
I was busy and I thought it wasreally interesting.
And it was great because it wassuch an unusual combination
that when I went to China andjoined this clinic I could do it
was a cosmetic clinic, so Icould do injecting and I could
do anesthetics, so yeah, so Iwent up and worked at that
(13:02):
clinic for a year and a half andit was all very interesting.
When I left I discovered theyhadn't registered me as a doctor
in China Whoops.
So it did cause some problemsbecause after that I was kind of
marked as this kind of dodgydoctor who kind of practised off
the radar.
So I'd gone from being on youknow committees and chairing
(13:26):
things and you know beinginvolved with standards, to
suddenly being this dodgy doctor.
Anyway, in China.
China was such a weirdexperience.
Like a lot of expats, I endedup doing stuff in China that
wasn't what I was trained to do,so I worked in sports medicine
clinics, I worked in a geriatricclinic.
I worked for a wine company asa brand ambassador for a while
(13:46):
for Hardee's and all that.
Tasting with Bernadette wasgreat.
I could lead a tasting.
I couldn't do it in Chinese butI had an interpreter, so I did
lots of stuff in the wineindustry as a professional,
which was really fun.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So I did tell you it was a checkered history.
We've obviously alreadyendorsed that fact quite clearly
.
But I also want to make aremark about how I think
sometimes you pursue a passionrather than process, because
that's obviously beendemonstrated by you as well.
I'm just wondering about yourlove for textiles, and where did
(14:22):
that come from?
I mean, you obviously loved itso much that you pursued going
to a different country aroundthat, and it seems to be such an
anomaly in terms of youranalytical mind.
And I think you did mention youliked music.
So what's this kind of sense?
I'm feeling about being veryanalytical, which I'm thinking
(14:43):
relates very nicely to yourability to take on champagne in
a way that demonstrated a greatpalette and also this wonderful
creativity.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
Nobody's actually asked me inthat way.
It was definitely something Iwasn't tuned into.
Before I met my second husband,I had collected Japanese, a lot
of Japanese woodblock prints,and I loved Japanese art, so
this was a sort of segue into adifferent art form.
(15:16):
David collected these thingscalled rank badges, these sort
of round things that havedragons and birds and things
that you see on Chinese roads,and he had a huge collection
which he actually gave to thepowerhouse in Sydney and it's um
.
Yeah, it's quite something, andI remember being on this buying
trip with him and being in thisum gallery and thinking I would
(15:41):
have bought 10 textiles in theamount of time it was taking him
to check out one, getting verybored, and I thought I really
want him to do this.
I don't want him to not bedoing it, I don't want to hold
him back.
So I thought I'll findsomething that interests me and
I saw a tiny, tiny little pairof embroidered shoes, these
little slippers, and I didn'tknow what they were and they
(16:04):
were quite expensive, so Ididn't buy them.
But we crossed across the roadto another antique shop in
Hollywood Road in Hong Kong andthere was a lady there, beatrice
, I'll never forget her and shesaid I used to wrap my uncle's
concubine's feet and she saidthese are bound feet, these are
(16:24):
for the little, tiny bound feet.
And I got really interested inthis whole thing.
So I bought a couple of pairsyou know tiny and then I did
more and more research and ofcourse you know I didn't just
collect the textiles, of courseI did do something academic.
So I've written articles aboutthem and I've given lectures on
my collection.
(16:44):
I used to go down to Hong Kongand lecture on it.
So I ended up with this hugecollection of the shoes, the
accessories, the little sewing.
I can barely sew on a button.
I am not a seamstress but Ijust I love.
It was the history and thewindow it gives you into a
culture, history and the windowit gives you into a culture.
(17:09):
So I would start my lectures onthe bound feet shoes by saying
I don't really support boundfeet.
It's not about the feet, it'sabout the shoes, it's about the
culture and the window into theculture and the fact that a very
sophisticated society did thisfor a thousand years and produce
some of the most exquisiteembroidery.
So a lot of the embroidery issymbolic.
So I liked all the.
I liked the symbolism, themeaning.
(17:31):
There's things called rebuseswhere when you put two things
together it means something else.
So it's sort of visual code.
So women would embroider theirshoes before their wedding and
send them to their mother-in-law, who would then look at the
shoes and say, yes, beautifulneedlework she'll do and it tied
(17:52):
in with Confucianism.
So the fact that you wereobedient, you weren't very
mobile, so you had to kind ofstay within the home and your
needlework showed that you werea dutiful daughter.
So it really fitted in withthese Confucian ideals that you
were this dutiful, quiet, docilewoman who wasn't going to be
(18:14):
running off anywhere because youcouldn't.
And that was Confucian societyfor 1,000 years.
It was really very interesting.
It's an incredible history.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
And do you still have a lot of those?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
I've still got the shoes yeah, I don't put them out
anymore.
I used to have this.
Revy did one of my houses forme and I had this fabulous
display case, but it sort ofbecame a bit out of fashion.
So I don't have them outanymore.
But I do have other collectionsas well.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
All I can think about is grade three home economics,
yes, and I quite liked thecooking courses, but the
needlework courses were justdreadful and I used to get told
off all the time, so I don'tthink I would have been anything
dutiful about me had I been ina different culture.
I think I would have beenrejected by everybody on the
basis of what I produced.
(19:04):
It was just atrocious and Istill have been rejected by
everybody on the basis of what Iproduced.
Remember the work?
Yeah, it was just atrocious andI still have them in my
keepsakes and I just alwaysremember those days about home
economics.
At school so different now weactually did used to sew a
needle case, you know, put theneedles in on a Wednesday
afternoon, or the littlepinwheels that the pins went
around.
And my mother was a beautifulseamstress.
So for me to be completely nottalented at all was probably a
(19:29):
bit appalling to my mother.
But she was a wonderfulseamstress, so was mine, and I'm
like you, I can't even sew abutton on, so there is no talent
in that regard.
But tell me about living inChina.
Did this inspire you in terms ofdifferent forms of medicine as
well?
In terms of?
You had lots of other interests, but perhaps with your medical
(19:49):
career that then followed, doyou think that it was part of
the culture that really changedwhat you thought about?
Speaker 3 (19:56):
medicine generally.
I did it really, and it wasn'tso much because when I went
there, tcm, which is what theycall it, traditional Chinese
medicine wasn't that popular.
Strangely enough, the hospitalI worked in had a TCM department
, but it was literally on thetop floor stuck in a broom
cupboard and I even said to someof my colleagues oh, you know,
(20:18):
what do you think about TCM?
And they said, oh, we thinkit's witchcraft.
You know, we don't.
They, the Chinese doctors,didn't think much of it.
But I was there for seven yearsand it was interesting because
in that period of time I thinkthere was quite a push for China
to regain its sort of nationalidentity and its sense of pride
(20:40):
and all of a sudden anythingChinese became very, very.
They stopped being in awe ofWestern stuff and they really
started to get their Chineseshoes on and TCM became really
quite well regarded.
So by the time I left it wasvery popular.
But the thing that they werereally good at was Chinese
embrace, anything new.
(21:00):
So I worked in a couple of thisis what got me going.
I worked in a couple of stemcell clinics.
So I worked in a couple of andthis is what got me going.
I worked in a couple of stemcell clinics and that's when I
saw the really interesting stuffthat was all coming straight
from America.
Australia's not even on the mapin China.
So a lot of the US stuff andthe European stuff, the Swiss,
they really embraced it, theyreally took it on board.
(21:22):
So yeah, I worked for twocompanies One I worked in an
actual doctor-y sense and theywere basically doing stem cell
rejuvenation, so it wasintravenous.
And I worked for another clinicwhere I had to actually
masquerade as a Swiss doctor.
So it was a lot of that inChina, that you pretended to be
(21:43):
someone from another.
It was a bit awkward at times.
I don't know what they thoughtof my very broad Australian
accent, but I had to pretend Iwas a Swiss doctor at this other
company.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So it was an Australian doctor.
You didn't really rank amention there, but as a Swiss
doctor they would listen to you.
So what was that all about?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Well, australia is koala bears and, you know, like
a hot climate or barrier reef orsomething.
They don't really see Australiaas being a sort of centre of
medical excellence at all whichit is Whereas somehow in the
Chinese mind Switzerland is justlike this utopia and medically
(22:19):
it's like it cannot be.
And one of my girlfriends therewas a German surgeon and her
husband was a Swiss guy whoworked for Novartis and she said
you've got to be really carefulabout pretending you're Swiss.
And I said I know, but you knowthey just keep introducing me
as this Swiss doctor.
And so that was my last jobthere and it was basically just
(22:41):
a kind of acting modelling jobwhere I just got up and gave
talks in English about, you know, stem cells and the research
they were doing and then if theyhad celebrity VIP clients I
would inject them with stemcells and it was all very, very
strange.
But what I really enjoyed aboutit was it did make me start
(23:02):
thinking about different typesof therapy and some of the
doctors I worked with whotrained overseas were really
interesting.
They'd done these functionalmedicine courses, so I started
looking into it.
When I got back to Australia Idid have a little bit of time on
my hands.
So before I started back intoanesthetics here, I did a couple
(23:23):
of courses, started back intoanaesthetics here, I did a
couple of courses and then whenlockdown came and I saw that we
were not doing well, I suddenlythought I really, really want to
do something different.
So for many years doinganaesthetics, especially when I
had a lot of very overweightpatients or unwell patients, I
used to say to my surgeons we'reslowly killing ourselves.
(23:44):
Then COVID came and I thoughtwe're slowly killing ourselves.
Then COVID came and I thoughtwe're quickly killing ourselves.
We need to get onto this,because it was no secret that a
lot of people dying from COVIDwere overweight or not healthy.
I mean, some healthy peopledied too, but a lot of people
were not in the best of health.
So that's when I thought Ireally want to do something
(24:04):
totally different.
I'd been thinking about thisfor a while and I thought I'm
going to do it.
I'm just going to do it becauseI wasn't working, all my
clinics had closed down andbecause, you know, injecting
wasn't an essential service andI was doing a couple of
(24:24):
anaesthetic lists, but they weretiny and they closed down.
So I had all this spare time,so I retrained myself so what
did you birth during that time?
Oh well, a lot.
I discovered that there's nocourse for this, there's no
training course for this inAustralia.
We unfortunately, even thoughwe do have an excellent standard
(24:48):
of medicine, we're some yearsbehind other countries, so
there's no possibility to dowhatever you want to call it
integrative, functional,whatever.
So a lot of the doctorspracticing this type of medicine
, the GPs, who've just got thisincredible extensive knowledge,
but they have just bolted thatonto their practice because
(25:11):
they're already seeing lots ofpatients and there's a couple of
little courses you can do, butit's not like anesthetic
training or endocrinology orphysicians or anything like that
.
There's nothing formal.
So I had to find enough stuffthat I would educate myself up
to a level that I thought wasappropriate, which was really
hard because you know I wasmaking it up.
(25:33):
So it's been interesting.
Fortunately, one of my reallygood friends from Shanghai days
she and I sort of always jokethat we had parallel careers, so
she's younger than me and she'snow one of the world's foremost
longevity doctors, and so Iused her a lot as a resource and
(25:55):
she worked for a company thatactually set up a training
program.
So I did their training program, but they're based in
Switzerland.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
They really are based in.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Switzerland, but you're Swiss anyway, so of
course it makes you eminentlyqualified.
No problem with the language.
Yeah, so that was.
That was quite odd, actually.
So I've, I've done what Ithought I've.
You know, I've sort of educatedmyself sort of up to a level
that I think is in line withwhat the rest of the world is
doing, and I have done somebasics.
(26:25):
I've done a lifestyle medicinecourse here, as well as a
college of nutritional,environmental medicine.
So I've done as much as I canhere.
That's appropriate so.
But it's been interesting.
Certainly when I went andchanged my medical registration
and my medical defence, nobodyhad any category for me.
(26:47):
So I thought I'd just ring upand say hi, it's me, I'm not
doing anaesthetics anymore.
Can you just pop me into yourintegrative, functional,
whatever medicine category?
And they went we don't have one.
And I said well, what about allthe other doctors doing this?
And they, they went we don'thave one.
And I said what about all theother doctors doing this?
And they said we don't.
It's not a lot and they're allGPs and I think there's one
physician, so there's no onejust doing it as a freestanding
(27:10):
specialty.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
So tell me if I so.
I've always been intriguedabout, I think your practice
sort of embodies health andbeauty, sort of starting on the
inside, or is it?
It started off that way?
Is that how it started?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, it very much started with the, because I know
, you know, when I was doinginjecting I would get lovely
patients coming in, but some ofthe time I'd think nobody's
telling people about holistichealth.
So, you know, I used to thinkto myself look, I can put Botox
in until we're both blue in theface, but it's not helping your
(27:47):
skin.
You know, if you're not wearingsunscreen, you're smoking,
you're not controlling yourweight, you're probably eating a
lot of sugar.
You know there's no point doingall this.
You know, spending thousands ofdollars if you're not actually
nourishing.
So, yeah, I'd always had thatsort of aspect.
And I was really lucky too,because I grew up in the era of
Lady, the famous Lady Salento ohmy goodness, remember her and
(28:13):
my mum was quite a big proponentof that healthy style of living
.
So we were all these poor kidsat school with the brown bread
sandwiches and everybody hadwhite sandwiches with Vegemite
and we had brown bread withcheese and healthy stuff, and my
mum used to make her own bread.
She was really ahead of hertime and so we just thought
(28:33):
healthy food was normal.
And I remember when I moved outof home and was living with
sharing with other students, asas a student I had, like I think
I had a week where I just atejunk and at the end of it I felt
so appalling that I thought, ohno, I'm going back to my brown
rice and my and I've alwayseaten very healthily myself and
I do think it's, you know,important for the skin and the
(28:56):
rest of you.
So this kind of dovetailedquite well with just my
underlying philosophy of life.
Anyway, then my experience asan anesthetist, then my
experience as an injector, itall just sort of seemed to, and
then COVID, it all just sort ofseemed to come to this very
(29:17):
logical outcome why don't I havea practice that talks about
that for patients?
And then I, as I sort of didmore study, I kind of drifted
more into being reallyinterested in longevity and
that's what, because I sort ofhad a moment where I thought,
look, this is sort of okay, butI'm not sort of inspired and I
(29:41):
can't sort of see anything,that's kind of point of
difference.
And suddenly I started readingall these things about longevity
and I suddenly thought that'sinteresting, that's the science
and this is the cutting edgestuff that interests me.
So I don't certainly with mypractice I don't want to stray
into the.
You know no sort of shade onany colleagues, but not that
(30:06):
interested in the sort of theherbal remedies or the you know
anything a bit sort of weird.
I really just want to doevidence-based longevity
medicine and it's very niche inAustralia as far as I know.
I think I'm the only persondoing it, but it's basically
it's not extending your life to120, giving you 20 extra years
(30:27):
in a nursing home.
It's because everyone's sort oflike oh no, you know, do we
need to live longer?
You know we don't need morepeople living longer.
What it is is making youproductive right until you die
with your boots on is what I sayto my patients.
I want you to be and that'swhat people used to be like.
You know, years ago you didn'thave all these elderly, frail
(30:51):
people in nursing homes.
People worked and then theydied and I sort of want that for
my patients and it's now calledhealthspan, healthspan,
healthspan, healthspan asopposed to lifespan.
So, and it's just really goodbasic principles, but it's it
revolves around the way you live.
So it's your diet, movement,exercise, it's sleep.
(31:16):
It does focus a lot onspiritual and social connection.
I do talk to people about toxinload what they've got in their
kitchens, their bathrooms, theirperfume, their makeup.
So I really go right down intoareas that other doctors don't
have time to talk about.
It's almost like I'm super GP,because I really talk to people
(31:40):
about everything.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So do you do.
If I came into your clinic andI said, look, I'm really
interested in this whole idea oflongevity kind of based
medicine, is that what I wouldcall it?
I'm not sure.
I've heard you're doing somework in this.
You know what kind ofconversation would we have first
?
Yes, do you analyse everythingthat I do?
Yes, and what do we have first?
Yes, do you analyse?
Speaker 3 (32:00):
everything that I do.
Yes, okay, I always say topeople, I even You're afraid.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yes, you're very afraid I do.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
I call it my deep dive.
I know deep dive's a bit clichéthese days, but I call it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I need a sip of champagne.
I learn what Sheena's going totalk to me about on my first
appointment.
I need a sip before I embark.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
So I usually offer my clients two different ways, two
different pathways to see me.
One is Mr Buy Package, and Iwon't talk about the finances or
anything there, but basicallythey purchase a package and that
includes all interviews with me, all consultations, some
testing and diet plan andindividualized sort of like a
(32:38):
roadmap.
Or you can just see me like anormal doctor, just visit to
visit either.
Whichever way you choose, um,the first visit's usually like a
good hour and a half hour and aquarter and I talk to people
about everything.
So I do a huge fan of diet, soI do a really big dietary
history.
Because it's amazing the numberof patients who say to me
(33:00):
nobody has ever asked me what Ieat before.
And I'm like that's likerunning a car and and sort of
just randomly putting in anypetrol that happens to be
passing by, and especially withmen, the only way I can really
sort of communicate with men onthat score is I say it's a car,
(33:21):
your body is a Ferrari or aLamborghini.
You're not going to get leadedpetrol in there, are you?
And they go no, I said this ishow I want you to think about it
.
So it's amazing, I think thatpeople haven't been given a lot
of information about eatingproperly.
Australia is not too bad,anyway.
So I do the full, as I said, allthose things that I mentioned
(33:44):
before.
I do that for an hour and ahalf, then I work out what tests
I'm going to do, and I usuallydo a genetic test just to see.
So the genetic test I use iscalled Lifestyle DNA and that
basically looks at it's 110pages, so it looks at a lot of
stuff.
It doesn't tell me whetheryou're Armenian or Chinese or
(34:07):
something, but it does tell mehow you process carbohydrates,
saturated fats, polyunsaturatedfats, omega-3s, how you respond
to stress.
Tells me the number dopamineyou know, if you've got lots of
dopamine receptors or not.
Tells me about cardiovascularhealth, how you're going to age,
if you do have the longevitygene which some people have, uh.
(34:29):
Tells me how you respond toexercise, how you should
exercise.
Uh, it's, it's absolutelyencyclopedic and for me, the
once I've got that, that's theroadmap for me.
That tells me how you should beeating, how you should be
exercising, how you respond tostress, how you sleep, how you
(34:50):
should be sleeping, and a fewother genetic things as well
Whether you're prone to certaintypes of cancer.
It's really until I've got that.
I'm just giving people ageneral idea.
But once you've got that and wenow think that genetic
information is probably only 20%of the picture, some people say
(35:12):
a little bit less, some peoplesay more, but probably 20% is a
good working number.
80% is what's called epigeneticchange.
So that's what you do.
So I always say the genes arelike a piano that you can either
have your two-year-old playingor you can have a maestro Same
keys going to sound verydifferent.
(35:33):
And I always say that's whatyou are with your genes.
You can either be atwo-year-old and just plonking
away and making terrible music,or you can play it beautifully.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
And that's what diet, exercise, sleep, et cetera do
so now that I have all thisinformation about myself.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Well, that's just my first test.
We also do a microbiome.
I'm a huge fan of the gutmicrobiome.
I'm a massive fan of gut healthis, again, it's.
This might be the piano, butthe gut health is the gut
microbiome.
I'm a massive fan of gut health.
Again, this might be the piano,but the gut health is the piano
tuner.
So, whether or not your keysare being played in tune or not,
(36:09):
and I do various other tests, Ijust do basic blood tests.
So once we've done all that, Iusually do a big dietary plan,
talk to people about exercise.
I send them off to really goodexercise physiologists to get
them.
They don't have a plan going.
If I think they've got anythinggoing on with their sleep, I
(36:30):
send them off to a sleepphysician for sleep studies and
I do work with people.
So a lot of what I do afterthat initial thing is health
coaching.
So I then get people back andjust talk to them about making
these changes.
But once they've got thatroadmap, it kind of gives them.
I mean, totally up to them ifthey follow it, but I strongly
(36:50):
encourage people to follow andit's all.
Again, the microbiome.
It comes back and it tells youwhat we should be eating.
So it's really great.
And fortunately it usuallycoincides with the DNA and so I
quite often do diet plans,especially for I get a lot of
young male patients.
So I quite often, with theyoung men, I'll do a really
detailed diet plan, like guys intheir twenties and thirties,
(37:13):
because this is the cohortthat's interested in this stuff.
It's these young people.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Great.
I think it's fascinating.
We might take a little breakbecause when we return, I want
to ask you about perhapsanalysing how you've had a role
in this new shaping of anexperience for your clients or
do you call them patients?
I call them both, okay, both.
I want to ask you about, maybe,what you've learnt about
(37:41):
yourself in relation to, well,what have you changed in your
behaviours to actually startpursuing more of a longevity
style of function and practice?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
You are a very good interviewer.
Do that after the break.
You've got the best questions.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Hanworth House turns 160 on the 16th of July this
year, so head tohanworthhousecomau, forward
slash whatson to see how we arecelebrating and how you can be
involved.
We'd love to see you there andcheers to an incredible
milestone.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
So, Sheena, the reason I posed that question was
they probably can't ask youabout any particular patients
and what they've found out as aresult of engaging with you, but
I really thought it would belovely to talk to you about what
have you found out aboutyourself in terms of applying
some of these new philosophies?
And we'll probably kind ofpreamble that by saying I won't
(38:38):
ask you about sexual health andgoing down that kind of road,
but so we'll put that one to theside.
What about other things interms of what you've found?
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Look, it is such a good question and, as I said,
you know I sort of grew up inthat Lady Salento era and you
know brown rice and you know Iwas kind of a hippie at uni and
loved you know I've always lovednatural remedies and natural
health.
So I thought I was actuallypretty good.
I thought that I was eatingquite well and exercising.
(39:08):
I thought I was doing all theright things.
That was sort of slightlychallenged a few years ago when
I was diagnosed with breastcancer and that made me sort of
think quite a bit about was Ireally doing as well as I
thought in terms of health.
So that also got me down apathway of reading a lot about
(39:29):
healthy eating and anti-cancerand all that sort of thing.
But I was still quite sceptical.
But it was only when I actuallystarted to do sort of quite a
lot of academic research intothis area and I did courses with
organizations in the US and Ireally looked into the different
diets and recommended sort ofdiets for longevity that I
(39:52):
realized I wasn't.
I was doing an awful lot oflike.
I was eating pretty well but Iwas sneaking in a lot of stuff.
Like you know, I was havinglittle chocolates and you know
sausage rolls, rolls.
You know like I'd treat myselfand I suddenly realized I was
doing this a lot and I probablywas only eating well, like maybe
60% of the time, and the otherthing I wasn't doing was sort of
(40:14):
adding in enough, like you know, fiber, so vegetables, and you
know I've never been a big fruitand vegetable person.
I'm sort of probably moreprobably a bit paleo in some
ways, and I did do the paleodiet for a while, but I switched
over completely to actuallystraight Mediterranean diet,
which is the one diet that justcomes out on top every single
(40:34):
time in terms of longevity, noquestions asked.
I just went out and bought allthe stuff.
So now I eat a lot more pulsesand lentils and chickpeas and
lots of salad.
I keep protein Protein's aconflicted area.
There are some people thatthink we eat too much protein.
There are some people think wedon't eat enough protein.
It's particularly important interms of aging and preventing
(40:57):
frailty.
Frailty is just loss of muscle,so we really like our older
people to eat protein.
So, yeah, I really smartened upmy diet and I exercised a lot
more because I thought that mygentle walks were pretty good
and my occasional ballet bar orPilates, and I realized I wasn't
(41:18):
doing enough either.
So it really, and my sleep wasall over.
You know, typical doctor I was,you know I was so used to being
on call.
I think I went for years withlike four or five hours sleep a
night and you know I was verymuch from that era when people
sort of said I can get by withyou, you know, four hours sleep
(41:38):
a night, which I did for years,and you know, one of my husband
and I were on call, so one of uswas up and down and I suddenly
realised my sleep patterns wereatrocious and I was just used to
getting by with minimal sleep.
So I paid a lot of attention andin fact I listened to a podcast
this morning that said, ifyou're, you know, as a scientist
(42:00):
who runs this sort of lab inNorth America, she said if
you're really going to pick onething, pick sleep.
Now I've always said to peopleif you're going to pick one
thing, pick exercise.
And I still believe that.
But she said there's evidenceto show that it's not even sleep
duration, it's sleep regularity.
So same time at night, sametime in the morning, so it's not
(42:23):
even just I'm getting eighthours or whatever.
If those eight hours are allover the shop as well, it is
devastating.
She said there's not one partof your health that poor sleep
doesn't touch, including thingslike cardiovascular disease,
cancer, heart disease, that typeof thing.
So it's draconian.
(42:44):
So, yes, I really tightened upmy sleep.
Again, the social and spiritualI think I'd always placed a high
value on them, but it just mademe realize legitimize perhaps
this as being more important.
And again, the toxin load.
Again, perhaps this has beenmore important.
(43:04):
And again the toxin load.
Again, you tend to think thatif products are being sold, that
they've been tested and thatthey're okay.
And I discovered that mostproducts aren't tested and that
we just have this massive toxinload without realising.
It's like a, not an experimentin a sinister sense, but
post-World War II, when webecame much more industrialised,
we just get so many morechemicals into our bodies.
(43:27):
And this is the first time inthe history of humankind that
we've just sort of had thismassive onslaught of chemicals
that nobody's actually tested.
And I think that's responsiblefor an awful lot of our issues
at the moment and I think it'sgoing to be very hard to turn
that tide back.
So, yeah, so for me it was.
It was a really interestingjourney and I and also alcohol
(43:51):
I've obviously been very keen onthe you know, the champagne
thing and always I grew up in ahousehold where my mum always
had a glass of wine with dinnerlearned how to drink responsibly
and always loved it.
You know, for me it was part ofmy life, but that's another
thing.
I've really despite the fact Ienjoy it when I have it, but I
(44:11):
don't drink that often I regardalcohol as a condiment,
something I sprinkle on funoccasions Like today, Like today
, but I don't have it all thetime.
It's like you wouldn't have icecream every day.
Well, some people would, but Iwouldn't.
Yeah, so you know alcohol aswell.
I've sort of changed myrelationship with that a little.
Yeah, it's been really good forme and actually I feel really
(44:35):
good, I feel really healthy andI didn't get COVID.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Well, that's a a claim to fame these days.
I mean, most people have had itonce or twice and there's only
a few.
Even my husband is one of thoseand he says I've probably had
it, but I didn't know it.
But he was saying the samething, but it's a real
educational experience.
It sounds to me Very.
Working with you and working, ina sense, around issues around
(45:01):
longevity and understanding howone thing affects another in
your body, which I think is areally different way of a
doctor-patient consultation,isn't it in terms of our more
traditional GP sense?
Speaker 3 (45:14):
And I do.
You know.
I say to people this isdifferent in every single way.
It's not you coming in to seeme and me telling you what to do
.
It's I put you in the driver'sseat.
I make you responsible for yourhealth because you know, when
you think about it, you mightyou come and see me one day out
of 365.
I'm not with you the other 364.
And in fact you only see me foran hour maybe.
(45:37):
So I do see my patients quiteregularly.
I try to see them every threeto four months, but I really do
aim to make people proactive andmaking good choices and feeling
.
You know the old days of thepatriarchy of.
You know med school like evenwhen I went through it was very
much.
You know the patients couldonly know certain things.
(45:59):
You had to hide things frompatients because you had to
preserve the mystique ofmedicine and I remember then
sort of thinking it's for thebirds, like.
You know, the more we tellpeople and I'm a huge educator,
I love education so I think themore you educate people, the
better it is for all of us.
Like, the more we all knowabout everything, the better
things will run.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
So I'm going to take advantage of the fact that I've
got a great educator here withus today.
A Zenpick, yes or no?
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Zenpick's got a lot of work around it for some very
interesting things.
As well as diabetes and theobvious weight loss, I think the
exciting things for a Zenpicare more to do with, again,
longevity and to do withcardiovascular disease dementia.
There's some links there thatOzempic might prevent dementia.
(46:50):
Whether this is a separateaction of Ozempic or whether
this is related just to theweight loss and the blood sugar
control, we don't completelyknow.
I personally don't like it formy patients If they just want to
lose a small amount of weight.
It's not appropriate and it'svery hard to come off.
It's very hard to get offOzempic again.
So I think I would regardOzempic very much like a
(47:15):
diabetic medication, likeinsulin or a high blood pressure
medication.
If you really need it, I thinkit is a good idea.
But I wouldn't just put someoneon insulin for the fun of it
and I wouldn't put someone onjust to lose a few kilos.
So yes, and no asking forfriends asking for friends.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I also think there's a lot of bad kind of issues and
that you hear so much in mediathese days like intermittent
fasting.
Yes, it didn't work for me.
I did try it, yes, and yet Ilive my life like I'm on one
giant intermittent fast.
It was an easy lifestyle for meto have.
Yes, I'm very good at going along time without food, but it
(48:00):
just did nothing.
No weight came off.
So what's your feeling aroundintermittent?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
fasting.
That's exactly what most peoplesay, and in fact, there's a
very well-known doctor calledPeter Atiyah who works in the US
and he has a fabulous podcast.
His podcasts are two hours likeyou really need a lot of time
and he's released a book, thankGod, so it's a lot easier to
read.
And he talks about this in hisbook because one of the reasons
(48:28):
that we think intermittentfasting is good is not just
weight loss.
It gives the body time torepair and sort of eat up all
the dead cells and sort of like,get rid of all the junk, take
out the trash, whereas whenyou're just eating constantly,
the body doesn't have time to dothat.
I also did intermittent fastingfor ages.
I felt quite tired a lot of thetime.
(48:49):
I didn't lose any weight.
Yeah, I'm in two minds verymuch about intermittent fasting.
My current position is that Idon't recommend it because I
don't think it does anythingmuch for people.
I think it's better to, and infact, when people come to see me
, I think they're oftensurprised because I get people
(49:11):
to eat more, not less.
I think we've got a problemwhere people aren't eating
enough food, which might soundweird.
Sound weird, but I actuallycertainly in terms of the
microbiome and the genome.
I encourage more food, sodiversity, particularly big
range of food, not hugequantities, but just more
(49:31):
diversity and more sort of morechoice, abundance.
So you know, I try and sort ofinstill in people that eating
should be this joyous occasionand I'm always saying to people
make every meal value add.
I think if you are going to doand in fact what I'm more
interested in is somethingcalled caloric restriction,
(49:52):
which is sort of the other sideof intermittent fasting.
So intermittent fasting is justeating within a time window, it
does suit a lot of people, it iseasy to do, but again, I just
don't know if it's having thebenefits that we want.
So I think if you really want tosee those benefits of the it's
called my autophagy andautophagy where the body is
(50:14):
destroying all the old cells itdoesn't need, I think you're
probably just better off havingmaybe a weekend where you do a
little juice fast or a little,you know, have veggie broths or
something for a weekend.
I think like two or three daysis what's needed to really kick
that into action and the rest ofthe time just eat really well
and really diversely, but justnot a lot.
(50:36):
And the other thing too if youlook at societies where fasting
is really common, like Indianand all sorts of other Islamic
societies, when they do do theirfasting they eat in the morning
and then they'll eat quiteearly and then they'll not eat
for the rest of the day.
But most cultures have a goodbreakfast and then a decent
(50:57):
lunch and then a small dinner,and I think that's the way to go
.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Do you yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:03):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
I think that would be my ultimate lifestyle would be
to do that.
I think it makes a lot of sensejust from a lifestyle
perspective.
It's difficult in ourenvironment, I think, to have
that.
We all have this particular wayof raising families and
children.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
You know we've been, I guess, educated that you know
we have a meal together at night.
But I think it makes so muchmore sense that you've got more
activity around the kind ofheavy part of the day whenever
you're actually having thebigger meal.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
That's it.
Well, that's what I found isthat you know, when I was
because I was always, you know,brought up with a breakfast got
to have a solid breakfast beforeyou go to school, uni, or
whatever the breakfast.
You've got to have a solidbreakfast before you go to
school, uni, or whatever.
And then when I cut breakfastout, I was literally dragging
myself to lunch and thinking Ihad no energy.
So I've, I actually sent myfriend Michael a text you know,
michael, you know because he's agastroenterologist and I said I
(51:56):
think that breakfast is a newbreakfast and I think it's just
so much better for you.
You know your blood glucose andyour biomes and I just think
it's.
Yeah, it's funny, it's one ofthose old adage, old housewives,
adage, things that you sort ofthink actually there is some
truth in it.
So, yes, I've reintroduced.
(52:17):
And there's actually a famousguy called David Sinclair who's
the father of longevity medicine.
And he's actually a famous guycalled David Sinclair who's the
father of longevity medicine,and he's actually an Aussie,
he's a scientist, he's ageneticist who's now got this
big research facility at Yaleand he's a big fan of one meal a
day, which I've also tried.
And that is really punishing,because all you think about is
(52:37):
food for at least 12 hours andthen you have this meal and it's
like huge because you've got toget enough nutrition in that
one meal.
But I discovered that heactually does have a breakfast.
He has yogurt with berries,which I think is almost like the
ideal breakfast.
So, yeah, I mean I can'tbreakfast like a king, you know,
(52:58):
lunch like a queen or that sortof thing, but I do try and have
something for breakfast and Ido try and have something for
lunch and the really, you know,the message, as I said, that I
have for all my patients is makeit nice.
You know, don't have some sadprotein shake or something out
of a packet.
Just put something on sometoast.
(53:19):
You know, get the best you canafford and even if it's just
some avocado with some seeds andyou know, a little bit of
hazelnut oil or just somethingto jazz it up, just try and
value out every meal.
Just think what else.
You know what else can I throwonto this?
So, and I'm not a fan ofsmoothies either, because I
think we need to chew.
I think our ancient ancestorschewed, and food is metabolised
(53:45):
completely differently if youchew it rather than whir it in a
blender.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Well, that's an interesting perception.
I'm going to have a whole newrelationship with my green
smoothie tomorrow.
Now, after you're saying that Ineed to chew it, I'll just put
all the celery and stuff and thespinach and I'll take an hour
to go to work tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
That's right.
We have the green vegetablesExactly Hold on, exactly Well.
I did green smoothies for agesand I have to say it's fabulous
for your skin because you'rejust getting so much greenery.
But again, we sort of thinkthat I can't remember what
they're called, but they'relittle packets that the
nutrition in, like nuts andseeds and plants, it comes in
(54:24):
little wee packets, you know, inthe cells and all that sort of
thing, and we think that whenyou chew you can't completely
break the packets down becausethey're quite fibrous.
So when you absorb the food youyou get most of the nutrition
but not all.
But it's sort of like in a timerelease.
So it's like a time releasecapsule.
Like you know, some medications, a stage like that, is designed
(54:47):
to sort of release slowly as itgoes through various parts of
the gut.
And we think that this is whathappens with food.
You know we start the processwith chewing and it goes down to
the stomach and certain thingshappen.
Then it goes to the small boweland the large intestine and
that's where a lot of the actionhappens, with toxins and
various hormones and vitaminsbeing absorbed or not absorbed
(55:09):
or manufactured or whatever.
So it's quite complex.
But we think that if things arein these little packets, that's
what they're meant to, that'stheir little time release,
whereas when we blitz them,they're all out there and they
get into the stomach and perhapsget absorbed differently.
So, yeah, and even things likethe fats in nuts, if you just
(55:32):
eat nuts, you will absorb farless, because people because I'm
a big fan of nuts they'reassociated with longevity and
you're always like, oh, I'mgoing to put on weight, but in
fact you only get about 30% to60% of the fats if you just eat
them normally as opposed toblending them.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Gosh.
I'm learning so much today, soI have one other kind of
conversation lots of people arehaving about full-body MRIs.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Yeah, they're really interesting.
I think if money was no objectand we had MRI scanners whirring
hot on every corner and we hada massive healthcare surplus
where we could just afford this,and we had loads and loads and
loads of genetic counsellors andoncologists, it would be great.
But they're expensive.
(56:17):
I mean they're not outrageouslyexpensive, but I think for
everyone to have them.
But it's like all these tests,when you do it, you've they're
expensive.
I mean they're not outrageouslyexpensive, but I think for
everyone to have them.
But it's like all these tests,when you do it, you've got to be
prepared to deal with theknowledge.
And it's that question.
It's the same when I do the DNAtest, which a lot of people
would be a little bit like whoa,you know why are you doing this
DNA thing?
For me, it's my roadmap.
But I think, yeah, we're alwaystaught when we're interns like
(56:43):
don't you know?
Only order a test if it's goingto change the outcome.
So this would be a test where,if I saw something, what would I
do?
Would I say to a patient look,we've picked up something in
your spine.
Um, that means you might have asecondary answer.
Gosh, now we've got to golooking for a primary.
(57:05):
So that would mean you knowbiopsies and colonoscopies, and
you know it would mean a lot ofother tests, and it's a really
interesting question that we'vehad in medicine for a long time.
It's this question of falsepositives and breast cancer,
particularly because that's beenso well researched.
But is it really worth doing alot of investigating to get
(57:28):
results that perhaps aren'tactually positive but put the
patient through a lot of testingto sort of find that out?
If I have a patient who wantsit, I don't talk them out of it,
I just give them a.
You know, write them up for it.
But very few of my patientshave asked for it so far.
They do ask for someinteresting things, though.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
I can imagine what's the most interesting thing
you've ever been asked for.
Speaker 3 (57:53):
Well, I get a lot of people asking me for things
called DEXA scans, which arelike the scans we use for bone
density and they're really goodbecause they tell you the amount
of fat you've got and where itis and whether it's visceral or
you know.
I don't want to know the answerto that.
No, I don't want that answereither.
And I say to people unlessyou're an elite athlete, it's
really not going to change mymanagement of you and I can tell
(58:15):
.
After you know, 30 years ofbeing in an operating theatre
and putting people off to sleep,I can guess people's weight
quite accurately, and I can alsoguess pretty accurately how
much of that is fat, becausethat actually pertains to how
much anaesthetic we give them.
So I'm sort of pretty good atguessing that there's going to
be a certain amount of fat.
(58:36):
So, yeah, look, if peoplereally want it again, I can send
them off somewhere that will doit, but I don't offer it as a
routine service.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Well, as my elite athletic days are probably over
or, perhaps, more realistically,never actually began.
I think that that's been afascinating conversation, sheena
.
Thank you so much for sharingall of that today, but let's go
and talk about something that Ido understand just a little bit
of how, about the world ofphilanthropy and giving, because
(59:05):
I do know.
Actually, before I do that, Ihave to remark on two things.
Lady Salento's niece lived atHanworth when we bought it 10
years ago.
I know so what an interestingconnection with us.
Of course, we've both hadbreast cancer, sadly, another
another connection as well, butI was just going to share that
with you because I don't thinkyou knew they were actually
(59:26):
renting the house from theAnglican Church of Australia,
and so there's another littleconnection there.
But let's go back tophilanthropy and doing good for
the community which you're verygood at and I think I might hop
back to your absolute interestin the arts.
You said you were very creative.
We can see that in your love oftextiles and you said, I think
(59:46):
at the very beginning of ourchat today, how interested you
were in music.
Speaker 3 (59:49):
I do, I must admit.
When we were growing up we hadmusic lessons, like kids did or
do.
And I always joke to my brother, who is an actual musician, who
played with the AdelaideSymphony for many years.
I always joke that I alwaysthought I was a musical child
because I was really good at thepiano, I was really good at
ballet, I loved all that sort ofstuff.
But I would rather gnaw my legoff than perform publicly.
(01:00:14):
I really do not have thatperformance thing, whereas my
brother's excellent.
So yeah, but I still love music.
And when I came back from China,I realised that I had to stay
in Brisbane because I had quitelong-term treatment and I
thought, well, I never thoughtI'd come back to Brisbane, I
(01:00:35):
thought I'd left Australiaactually, and I thought, well,
you know, I'm here, I'll putsomething back in.
I'm, that's just how I think.
I thought, well, you know, ifyou stuck it, you've got to do
something.
So I, long story short, I sortof looked around for something
to do and I thought, well, oneway you can really support the
arts is to get a group of peopletogether and if they just put
(01:00:59):
some money in, it makes a decentchunk of money for an artist.
So I spoke to various artsbodies and I eventually ended up
with the conservatorium for afew years and then COVID hit,
got a bit sort of difficult.
But lately we've just so I'vegot about seven or eight people
in this group.
(01:01:20):
They're call arts assets and wejust put, you know, $1,000 in
each year and there's somedoctors and there's some
non-doctors, but it just meansthat there's like a decent sum
of money and then we can sort ofchoose what we're going to do
for that particular year.
So this year we're looking atthe QSO Academy, which is this
(01:01:42):
fabulous thing that's been setup by Immance Larsons, who's one
of the cellists.
He's a principal cellist withQSO and it's students from QSO
and from the ConservatoriumSorry, from Queensland Uni Music
Department and Conservatorium.
So it's been very hard becausethey're traditionally always
(01:02:03):
very separate.
So we went to a concert at theend of last year and it was just
fabulous.
So these young kids are alreadyplaying a little bit with the
orchestra.
But they're also looking atjobs interstate.
So it gives them master classesand interview practice and all
the stuff that I had when I wasa trainee as a as an
anaesthetist.
It's like a registrar programbut a little bit short.
(01:02:25):
So probably supporting that, andI also support some projects at
UQ in the medical side ofthings, for me philanthropy is
just a no-brainer.
It's like I don't know nobodyelse in my family is
particularly, but for me it'sjust a I don't know, just it's
like gives me the most pleasure.
(01:02:47):
It's ridiculous.
My accountant hates me becauseI feel I really enjoy giving
money to people.
Don't ask me why, but it's justfor me.
It's just like what you do,it's like service and you know,
I think for me, me, service isjust like a very big thing is,
and that's why I like this areaof medicine that I'm in.
(01:03:09):
It's it's just making peopletheir best selves and it's, you
know, for me it's like servingthe community.
You know, if we can get allthese people healthy and
functioning well and not takingup resources, then job, job,
well done and I thought, from avery kind of, uh, strategic
perspective, we started theconversation around winston
(01:03:30):
churchill, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
and one of the most beautiful quotes is you make a
living by what you get, but youmake a life by what you give.
And I thought how apt it was tobring winston back into our
conversation, because being theWinston Churchill champagne is
my favourite.
I wonder if there's a bit ofhis kind of sentiment in there,
because that's always a quotethat I've lived by.
Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
I did not know that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Quote from him.
I think that's just a lovelyway to bring that conversation
around giving and getting to abeautiful kind of close Before
we ask two wonderful questionsthat we ask of all of our guests
, and I'm always intrigued andexcited about what I'm going to
hear.
But you seem to be theeffervescent young child.
(01:04:13):
But what would you like to bewhen you grow up?
Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
I gave some thought to this question and still
didn't have much of an answer.
Apart from wanting to beQuentin Bryce when I grow up, I
think everybody wants to beQuentin.
It's such a good question but Idon't have a particularly ready
answer, but hopefully just amore well-rounded and educated
(01:04:39):
and sort of kind version oftoday.
I regard myself very much as awork in progress.
So yeah, there's no specificperson but just a.
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
You know, what is it about Quentin that attracts you
as a kind of remark about?
I just want to be Quentin.
Price yes.
Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
Well, to me she just embodies that graciousness as
well as clearly a brilliant mind.
But the thing that I love abouther is because I know one of
her daughters quite well, revyis the generosity that she
allows her children to bethemselves.
(01:05:17):
She's allowed them to createtheir own careers and she's just
so supportive of people I meanvery much women, as we know, but
just supportive of people intheir journey, and I know she's
got tremendous sort of otherachievements.
Of course we know that.
But there's just a kind ofkindness and bigness about her
(01:05:43):
personality that I just reallylove.
And when I say big, I don'tmean like a loud, noisy big
personality, I mean just thatsort of I don't know, I can't
I'm looking for the word, butgraciousness, she's just grace
Class act.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
She is, and there's a Quentin room at Hanworth named
after her.
So again, we're kind of drawingthe connections back to the
house, which was the reason wemet, which is the reason we're
here today.
And life's like that, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
in lots of ways, yeah , and I love those little
connections and serendipitiesand I've always had them, ever
since I was a kid.
I was quite intrigued thatthings would sort of loop back
on themselves and sort ofinterrelate.
I've always loved that aspectof life I agree, you're very
into analysis and patterns, Ithink so on that pattern.
Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Note what brings you happiness.
Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
I think giving other I know this sounds horribly
corny Pollyanna-ish, but makingother people happy really is my
thing.
I really like getting peoplewell.
That makes me extremely happyand, yeah, I really like people
to be comfortable and and calmand happy in themselves.
That that's really my thing.
Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
I love that well, there's nothing wrong with
Pollyanna and I think, on thatnote, I'd love to use the
beautiful Pollyanna, which isone of my favorite books as a
child.
I've still got my hard copyplastic covered editions.
My mother used to cover all mypast my books in plastic and
I've still got the one.
I think when I was seven I gotthat book, which is a long time
(01:07:21):
ago now, and it was one of myfavorite books, along with Anne
of Green Gables when I wasgrowing up.
I was massive, me too.
Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Just devoured those books, me too.
Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
So, on that very happy note, with our beautiful
glass of champagne, sheena,thank you so much for coming on
the podcast today, sharing yourwonderful gems of wisdom with us
and giving us all, I think,something to think about.
Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Thank you for joining us and for making it this far.
We have a special treat for youHead to hanworthhousecomau
forward slash podcast to getyour hands on Dr Sheena's top 10
tips for longevity.
To make an appointment forspecialised help, you can head
to ultimatehealthcliniccomau.
(01:08:07):
All these links will be in theepisode description.
We hope you enjoyed our chatwith Dr Sheena Burnell today and
, as usual, if you have anyquestions, you can send them
through to podcast athanworthhousecomau.
We'll be back soon with anotherspecial guest.
Cheers, cheers.
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