Unleashing Organizational Success: Dr. Troy Hall on Talent Retention and Cohesive Leadership

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Well, hello and welcome to the Building Business
Podcast powered by the MountPleasant Chamber of Commerce.
We're recording with ourfriends in the Charleston Radio
Group Studios here with BrianCleary, both the huge supporters
of the Mount Pleasant Chamber.
My name is Kathy Herman.
I am your current president ofthe Mount Pleasant Chamber and
in my real time, I'm themarketing director for Mount
Pleasant Chamber and in my realtime, I'm the marketing director

(00:25):
for Mount Pleasant Town Center.
Thank you all for joining usand listening to us today.
I'm so excited to have myco-host with me today.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hey, hey, hey, what's happening?
Everybody yes.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Mike Compton.
Mike is the president of RoombaAdvertising, that's right, and
the current marketing committeechair for the chamber.
Mike, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, no, thanks for having me.
I'm really excited to have thisconversation with dr.
Oh wait, we haven't evenmentioned who it is yet.
No, we haven't, we have asecret.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
We have a really exciting announcement to make,
so don't go anywhere um, mike,just say a little bit about
yourself to our list.
You just did, kathy.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Uh, let's see.
President of roombo gorumbocom.
We're an advertising agencybased out of tampa.
Now we're up here in thebeautiful charleston area.
Uh, love every second of mountpleasant, love every second of
charleston.
Uh, growing the business,growing the chamber, uh and um,
and yeah, we're always lookingfor help on the marketing team.
Uh, so the marketing uh behinduh, the chamber always need some

(01:22):
new ideas and some fresh legs,if you will.
So contact me if you want toget involved.
Awesome, yeah, how about that?
I'm on the marketing committeetoo.
I love it.
Well, you're the leader, I know, but I'm still on the marketing
committee too.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Cheers to the marketing committee.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I do we are so excited about today's podcast
everyone.
I have my little intro and thenI've got a little something
special to add to it today, sowe're very excited.
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about our guest.
He is recognized as one of thetop 20 business leaders by
Valiant CEO Magazine andfeatured on the Today Show, abc,

(02:00):
the Global BVTV Network, beyondthe Business Radio Show and CEO
World.
Our guest today is anaward-winning talent retention
consultant, internationalspeaker and multiple
best-selling author.
Did I get all that right so far?

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Okay, good.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Now this is even better.
Everybody, and can you believe?
He's here with us.
I can In our little MountPleasant studio.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
This is a podcast.
This is amazing.
This is what podcasts are allabout.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
We are thrilled to celebrate Strategic Alliance
Partner, our guest I'm stillholding your name, hold on for
being named Top Talent RetentionExpert of the Year by the
International Association of TopProfessionals, the
International Association of TopProfessionals.
With this prestigious award, hehas joined a select class of

(02:52):
individuals recognized for theirprofessional accomplishments,
academic achievements,leadership abilities, longevity
in the field, other affiliationsand contributions to their
communities.
I am so honored.
Please welcome Dr Troy Hall.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
And the crowd goes wild.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Thank you, oh wow, you read everything just like I
wrote it.
Fantastic, that was the plan.
Oh, that was great.
Thank you, dr.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Hall.
Thank you so much here.
Our businesses, I know, aregoing to be so excited to hear
from you.
I know you've got such a busyschedule.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out to be with us here
today Global schedule.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
I know global schedule.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
now Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you
got started in this business.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Well, I like to start with a little personal
knowledge.
I think it helps kind of relateand connect to individuals.
So it answers the question likewhat you would find out about
me that's not on my resume my.
LinkedIn profile.
So I'm a simple man of faith.
Uh, I married my high schoolsweetheart in 1977 and we have
two children, six grandchildren.

(03:55):
We live on Daniel Island.
Uh, we got together and had acrazy idea we were going to
build a multi-generational house, and so our daughter, husband
and four kids live on one sideand my wife and I live on the
other.
Oh my gosh, yeah.
So it's kind of.
It's really it's so wonderfulto be surrounded by these
grandchildren that totally loveyou so unconditionally, unlike

(04:15):
your children who sort of loveyou when you know how that goes
right, but um, but it's justreally been a great experience
to to be able to do that.
How old are your grandchildren,nick?
They range in age from threeyears to 23.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Holy smokes, that's the best of all worlds, right
there.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
And the 23-year-old is getting married later this
year to his high schoolsweetheart and they have asked
me to officiate the wedding.
Stop it, I know, I think.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
I've got tears in my eyes.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
I know it's like awesome.
I can't even believe that thissort of thing, is happening, so
it's really been.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
So where are you?

Speaker 3 (04:50):
from.
Well, I was born and raised inWest Virginia, okay, and from a
very small town there in centralWest Virginia.
We were really an abandonedcoal mining town that my
grandfather moved there whenmining was really important and
the town tended to dry up oncemining changed.

(05:12):
But my mom was born and raisedin the same house for 80 years
before they came to live with us, so this multi-generational
living is not new.
For five years, during that2008 and 2012 crisis that we all
want to forget, that was thetime that my parents ended up
living with us.
My mom had dementia andParkinson's.

(05:33):
My dad had macular degeneration.
Our son, who had custody of histwo children, who are the two
oldest of the grandchildrengroup, had lost his job and
place to live and so they cameto live with us.
So we had four generations allliving under the same roof and I
remember one of my friendsasked me.
He said he says Troy, he goes.
You know, with all thiscommotion in your house, what

(05:56):
space do you call your own?
And I thought for a minute andI said well, I've been married
for a while, so I can't claimthe bathroom.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
I can't claim the closet you know I can't claim
the bathroom, I can't claim thecloset.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
You know I can't claim the bedroom, you know.
So what could I claim?
And I thought for a moment.
I said I'm going to claim thehallway.
And he started laughing,slapping his leg, and I'm like
what's so funny?
And he said hallway.
Your last name is hall, hallway, and so it became life in the
hallway.
And so I have another book thatis in the future works, that is

(06:28):
about life in the hallway andit's about the blessings of
living in a multi-generationalfamily, and now that we've done
it twice, we seem to be destinedto do that it worked out really
great.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Do you talk about it in your book, Franny?

Speaker 3 (06:43):
Oh yeah, thanks for asking, meanny rules.
Fanny rules is a book.
It's fanny rules, it's amother's leadership lessons that
never grow old your mother'syes, my mother, and so we have
to use the word.
I had to clarify that it was amother's leadership lessons,
because the book soldinternationally as well, and so
the word fanny means somethingelse in other places.

(07:03):
So fanny was my mom's nickname,and so cute little story of how
she got that nickname was hergirlfriends.
My mom was 98 pounds, soakingwet, and so my mom was not very
flirtatious and so she wasreally reserved, but she really
liked my dad, who was nicknamedSlim.
So, by the way, slim and Fanny65 years Slim and Fanny, that's

(07:27):
awesome.
And so the girlfriends gave herthe nickname and they said,
okay, if you're ever going tohave one, we've got to name it.
So they named her Fanny.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Oh, that's wonderful.
So her name is.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Frances, but they named her Fanny, and so mom was
really known like for her wholelife as Fanny and I learned so
much leadership from that woman.
Now, my dad was good and I hada great relationship with him,
and when I told my brother I waswriting the book, he says, well
, don't leave dad out.
And I said there's a sectionfor dad, but mom is the star of
the book.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Amazing.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
Because of what she provided to me during the
leadership lessons.
When I was 12 years old, my momwas diagnosed with cancer
breast cancer and when you livedin a rural town poor economic
conditions, no education outletsfor you we were bused an hour
to the nearest school.
You think your mom's going todie, but mom had a whole

(08:21):
different perspective on life.
So these leadership lessonsthat I have the pleasure of
working with organizations toexpand upon really has a lot of
foundation in with my mom andwhat she taught me.
She would tell me that mycharacter would always be
defined by the choices I made,not the circumstances I found

(08:43):
myself in.
She said we were poor bycircumstance, not by choice.
I have cancer by circumstance,not by choice, and so she made
it her opportunity to live aslong as she possibly could and
my job was to take care of her.
I was the oldest that was athome at the time.
My job was to make sure thatshe recovered from the surgery

(09:05):
and there were a lot of bedsideopportunities for bedside
messages and stories that shewould tell me.
So the Fannie Rule's book ispaying homage to my mother's
leadership legacy.
I really believe this.
I think that a person mightwant to try to control a legacy,
but the reality is that thelegacy is determined by all the

(09:28):
other people around them, not bythem.
And my mom would be soembarrassed about the stories
because she was such a humblewoman and just the great things.
And the good news is she lived43 years beyond that awful.
So, because dementia took hermemories.
I said, you know, let's giveback.
So we kind of like created somememories you know from the

(09:51):
stories people was involved inthem, but 31 memories wrapped
around nine rules that would beeffective in leading, and
everything was always wrappedaround treating people.
Which is why when I speak aboutculture and I speak about
things to organizations, Iremind folks that culture is
about how you treat people, notthe treats you give them.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
And then when did you realize that your whole career
and everything that you'veaccomplished I know it's about
from your mom and those basic,but when did you realize, wow, I
can make a living with all ofthis knowledge.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
I don't know that I ever had that epiphany where you
had that moment and you go, ohyeah, I got it.
I think it just sort of evolvedand sort of came out of the
experiences that I was havingand what I was doing.
I always felt like I wasdestined to be in charge
somewhere, like I always thoughtabout that, like yeah, I think
I want to be in charge, I wantto do that.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
You know, I mean you know as a small kid, you know
you kind of like you want toyeah, you want to be president.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
So I don't know that I ever said I wanted to be
president, but I thought beingin charge would be good, and so
in my professional career then Ijust pursued opportunities that
said, oh well, how can Iadvance and how can I move up in
the organization where I havean opportunity to influence more
people and just you know, andto have the organization trust
me to do that?
And so that sort of evolved.
And the next thing, you know,I'm in a C-suite position and so

(11:17):
I've been in organizations,small organizations to
multi-billion dollar companies.
I've had somewhere in theneighborhood of maybe 400, 450
people reporting into mystructure.
So I really got a chance totake all of those life lessons
that I was learning along theway and really package them for
what I consider to be my secondhalf, which is the opportunity

(11:39):
that I do today, which is Iguide leaders to retain the
talent in their organizations,and we do that by helping them
infuse cohesion into theirculture so that they can create
these safe workspaces forindividuals to thrive in.
And you may want to know whatcohesion is.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
I do.
I think everybody wants to knowwhat cohesion is.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
So cohesion is around three strategic elements and
they are belonging, value andcommitment or shared mutual
commitment.
And what's really interestingis that it's not just belonging
in the sense that I'm a part ofit, but I have to be included,
so it's inclusion.
Without the inclusion you don'thave the full part of belonging

(12:21):
.
And the reason that that's soimportant is it goes back to
Maslow's theory If people arepsychologically or physically in
harm, they fear.
They have some fear.
That's happening, regardless ofwhat source that may be.
They don't get to a point wherethey belong.
They don't get to a point wherethey have self-esteem.
They don't get to a point wherethey self-actualize.

(12:43):
And what do organizations want?
They want employees who areself-actualizing, because then
they're performing, then they'redoing things, then they're
engaged.
So you have to have theinclusion part of belonging.
And value is not just how youtreat people, because we expect
you to treat people well.
That is the foundation.
Value is about meaningful work.
I need to know that what I'mdoing matters, like what you do

(13:05):
matters, like when you open upthis podcast and when you talk
to the individuals who arelistening, when you are watching
on the YouTube and experiencingthis.
Again, that is meaningful work,and if you understand that it's
meaningful work, then you startto operate in that realm of a
cohesive mind, and then whatreally pulls it all together is

(13:26):
shared mutual commitments, andwe really are focusing on.
Well, what would that look like?
It looks like collaboration,and in collaboration we teach
that you need two things youneed everyone has to agree, they
need each other, and you haveto trust that people will do
their job.
And so that becomes thestrategic framework that we look

(13:47):
to have organizations adopt,and so we refer to it as
infusing cohesion into theirculture.
So we're not changing theirculture.
So you have a culture ofservice, of joy, of innovation,
of excellence.
Whatever it happens to be, it'sstill your culture, but now we
can level it up and we can giveyou finite direction as to how
to do it, without it just beinga string of tactical things that

(14:10):
you do.
You now have a strategic way inwhich you can approach that to
help you really level up yourculture.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
I think the most important thing too, dr Hall, is
that this can be implemented inFortune 500 companies as well
as mom and pop down the street,because they're just as
important.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Absolutely.
And the one thing for theprograms that and when I
mentioned we, it's because Ihave a team of five of us who
actually interact with ourclients it's all about helping
them really experience and thenimplement what they experience.
So we're not about sellingsoftware and selling programs

(14:51):
that cost an organization a lotof money.
I think one of the questionsthat you had me think about
before coming today was whatwould you say is an
untraditional or nontraditionalway of doing something.
I'm like, seriously, if youwant to have extraordinary, do
the ordinary, but do it all thetime.
Do the ordinary to a level thatmakes it so pristine, so

(15:13):
excellent, that it becomesextraordinary.
Because people don't expect it.
They say, oh, you might get itright once in a while, but what
would it be like if you could doit over and over and over again
?
So our opportunity is to try tohelp leaders do these things
over and over and over again ina way that they can retain the

(15:34):
individuals who are in theirorganization.
The first thing to clear up isthis Money has to be right, but
money is not the reason thatpeople leave, but the money has
to be right.
So when the money is right.
So if I work with anorganization that has good
salary administration concepts,then everything that I bring
forward, everything our teambrings forward youcan now

(16:04):
implement and be assured thatyou will see a difference in the
way your employees stick around.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Well, I mean, I think a lot of people can say in
their careers I have eitherchosen to go to or chosen not to
go to a company or a jobbecause of how I felt during the
interview process.
Things I've read and you know,and this is a long time ago-
right.
So now it's even worse.
All you have to do is get onsocial media and hear one bad
thing about a company.
But to me it was very importantand when I moved here it was

(16:30):
one of the best things I everdid, because I was leaving a
company after 25 years.
That was not my favorite.
I stayed for a long time but itwas convenient, which is not a
reason to stay, but I did.
But then I came here to workfor a company that just I've I'd
never experienced anything likeit.
It makes huge world ofdifference, gets more out of me
right as an employee, and thisis the the longest um shopping

(16:54):
center I have worked at myentire career and so one of the
things that I want to say to youis don't apologize about the
reason that you stayed anywhere.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
It is what it right.
You don't have to apologize,and you don't have to explain it
, over-explain it to somebodyelse.
It's about being so.
A lot of who we are as leaders.
Where we can be reallyeffective is in the moment, and
so you know, through thecoaching programs that we offer,
one of the things that we do iswe teach leaders to stop

(17:22):
apologizing for things becauseyou don't need to, unless, of
course, you've done somethingwrong, and if so, then apologize
for it Like no, that's thereason you're doing it.
We also like to have themengage emotional intelligence,
which means they apologize forthings they've done wrong before
somebody else points it out,because if you don't do that,
then we can't tell thedifference between I'm
apologizing because I was caughtor because I really meant it.

(17:43):
That is a great point.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Oh my gosh, that's good.
Yes, that is a great pointright there, absolutely right.
Other things that I've.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
I did a little research, but when it comes down
to leadership conversation, thepast doesn't dictate our future
Right.
You know, almost like amanifesting your future type of
situation I'm a big fan ofmanifesting and you don't have
to know everything.
Your future type of situationI'm a big fan of manifesting and
you don't have to knoweverything.
You just have to be teachable.
That's right, those are yourwords.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
That's right, I'm just spitting your words back to
you.
You don't have to knoweverything, you just need to be
teachable, and when you can dothat, your mind is open to
accepting new ideas and new waysof doing it.
If you are so filled withyourself that there's no room
for anyone else, you reallyalmost represent yourself as a
rock where, like water, might bethe knowledge or information or

(18:29):
good things that you would wantto know.
And so the water is on the rockand it actually goes over the
rock.
And because we're talking aboutleadership, leadership is
always spoken in a positive.
So when I say this, there arethings in life that you should
be a rock, because water willhit it.
You want it to run off, youdon't want it to soak in.
But for leaders who are reallypracticing, you want them to be

(18:50):
like sponges, you want them tosoak the information in.
Don't be so full that you can'ttake in an idea from somebody
who just started in theorganization a few days ago.
Do you have to implement it?
No, but you should listen to it, you should explore it.
You should not dismiss themimmediately, because individuals
want to be included.
They want to have there to be apart of that, and so a little
bit of that message about youknow, not looking at the past is

(19:14):
, I guess, like a talking pointthat I have, and that is you
can't be a victor of your futureif you're held captive by your
past.
You will never be to the placethat's been destined for you or
where you feel like you want togo, because you spent so much
time being mired in thecomfortableness of the past.
And so I try to help leadersthrough the coaching is to break

(19:36):
out of that and to understandthat the past has a purpose.
It is to provide a frame ofreference, but it's not where
you get stuck that if you getstuck there, it's unhealthy.
So you need to move forward andthink about it.
You don't get to the present,you get to I'm sorry, you don't
get to the future by being inthe past.

(19:56):
You get to the future by beingin the present.
So you have to go from the pastto the present, which is what
you're doing, which also goesback to mom, my dear, lovely
Fanny, and that is when shewould say to me she goes.
Why are you lamenting oversomething that has already
happened?
You cannot change it.
What you can change is what youare doing today and what you

(20:19):
will do tomorrow.
She said focus on that.
Focus on what you're doingtoday and what you're going to
do tomorrow.
Learn from whatever it was thathappened for you in the past,
consider it a frame of referenceand move forward.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
And this can all be used in personal life too,
because I have an issue.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Well, more personally it comes from leaving things.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
I mean I just some things I just can't get over and
I just need.
I just need to be like, yes, ithappened 25.
It happened 25 years ago, justmove on.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
It is.
It actually works really well,and so people ask me a little
bit about the background,because I have a PhD in global
leadership and entrepreneurshipSame.
So there's a lot of I'm justkidding.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
I'm just kidding, I don't, I don't, I don't.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Well, I've got two of you in the same room.
That's not yet self-proclaimmanifesting.
Yeah, oh, that's good, youcould do that but um, but in
that, um, in that story.
I'm not even sure where I wasgoing now.
Oh, I know, yes, they were.
They would ask me about, uh,you know, like the degree, it's
a philosophy degree but there'sa lot of psychology in it, and

(21:17):
so I like to say that when I'mcoaching and working with
individuals, uh, because I havea psych, there's some psychology
as part of the background isthat my clients are usually
sitting up or standing up, notlaying on a couch.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, okay, yes, that's the difference amazing
and my heart just swells when Italk about Fannie's leadership
skills from back in the day whenyou were growing up.
Yeah, and on her bedsideresonates to corporate USA
business, global corporate, notjust USA global corporate

(21:51):
business skills.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Like that's crazy to me how those connect so well, so
well, and so it's interestingthat we are talking about the
Fannie Rules book because it hasso much in leadership.
But the first book that Istarted out with was Coetion
Culture Proven Principles toRetain your Top Talent, and so
my dissertation was in groupdynamics, with an emphasis on

(22:12):
cohesion, and when I thoughtabout oh, this is going to be
the second half of my career,what would that look like?
It was well, someone suggested,why don't you leverage what you
did in your degree?
And I'm like, oh, wow, that'sgreat.
Thank goodness I'm being-.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Great advice.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Thank you, thank goodness I'm being teachable.
By the way, teachable is one ofthe seven attributes of an
effective leader found on page20 of the book.
Anybody who has the book?
Yes, please, but I mean just.
These things really work and Iwanted to put the book out for
the leadership book and the book, the Cohesion Culture book, has
three parts.
It starts with leadership,because if leadership doesn't

(22:47):
get right, then it doesn'tmatter what happens after that.
Then next is about culture andlike what culture looks like and
some of the dynamics of thestories, the rituals, traditions
and customs.
And then the final two chaptersis on how you bring it to life,
how you put it all together,and so it's a collection.
So it's a little differentbusiness book.
It's a collection of storiesand poetry, it's movies,

(23:10):
references, and so I take andI'm a metaphorical teacher, I
basically take these ideas andsituations and I kind of wrap
them into oh, what can we learnfrom it?
Because we learn so much fromstories, we learn so much from
our experiences, and so it's amatter of us framing some
questions to ask and having someprinciples and philosophies

(23:30):
around them that really goforward.
So I did that book to startwith, and then I did another
book after that, which was acollaboration with world leaders
on providing some tips, andthat was good and it was kind of
fun.
But the third book was theFannie Rules that we're talking
about today.
That book was an opportunityfor people to see inside me.

(23:53):
You know, there's somethingabout that veil of transparency
that's so important inleadership and I couldn't cover
that in the Cohesion Culturebook.
I was basically establishing anauthority within the space and
I hope people hear that in theright way.
Culture book I was basicallyestablishing an authority within
the space and I hope peoplehear that in the right way.
I'm not asking, like you know,I'm so big and important, but
what I wanted was to create avoice in the space that said, I

(24:15):
know this topic well, I can helpyou with this topic, you can
rely on me with this topic.
And then I wanted to make surethat you knew where my
leadership, you know acumen,came from.
Where did it begin?
It wasn't just textbooks, itwas really these experiences
with a woman who had so muchenergy and teaching and and

(24:38):
coaching me and guiding me, andso I think it's what motivated
me to actually do that when youasked in the very beginning.
And so I think it's whatmotivated me to actually do that
when you asked in the verybeginning, like, did I know?
No, but that I think, createdall of the, the stimulus, the
motivation to kind of move itforward was those experiences
with mom what did mom do?

Speaker 2 (24:54):
what did Fannie do?

Speaker 1 (24:55):
Fannie was a social uh domestic engineer yes, yeah,
okay, that means she was mom.
Yeah, she was mom.
Yeah, she's one of the hard,you know the hardest job on the
planet, and it is.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
And it's the role that she chose to play, and she
never looked down at individuals.
Other women who chose to workand raise kids Like mom, never
judged in that.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Why would you right?

Speaker 3 (25:15):
I mean, I don't like, I have to tell you some of the
judgments that people put outtoday.
It just makes me cringe BecauseI can't figure out like why do
you have to hate?
Like why do you have to hate somuch?
If an individual has adifferent lifestyle or a
different way of doing it, then,even though it's contrary to
your faith or your belief, youdon't have to make them wrong

(25:37):
because it's contrary.
And if we were much moreteachable, we would have an open
mind to it, we would know thedifference between what we want
to agree with but what we wantto understand.
And there is a differencebetween agreeing with someone
and understanding someone.
And that is so important,especially in the workforce.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
We need to understand it.
Dr Duhal, I'm taking thatlittle snippet right there and
I'm going to just keep playingit over, and over and over again
for the people that make meinsane with what you just said,
because I'm like some of thethings that I hear or read, I I
just I shake my head and justsay how, why?
It's not worth it, and that isamazing advice thanks and some

(26:16):
of the leadership conversation.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Bringing it back to the leadership.
So, uh, grace versus compassion, uh, good to great like.
These are your words that I'llcan you dive into a little bit
more of?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
what you?
Well, let's just talk about theseven attributes of an
effective leader.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's all part of them, right.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
It's all part of it.
So the first one is teachable,and the way I looked at it was
you know you can have all theother six that I'll talk about,
but if you don't have themindset right is there going to
be a lot of great value in thedynamics of them working
together, because thesecharacteristics or attributes
all work together.
So it was having a teachablemindset.
The next one is compassion, andthis is your opportunity to

(26:55):
have empathy Not sympathy, butempathy.
Empathy is an understanding.
So some of the work that we dois an empathy mapping exercise
that allows you to think aboutindividuals who might be
marginalized and to find outlike what is that individual
thinking?
What are they saying, feelingand doing around that story or

(27:16):
around that situation?
So that's compassion.
Grace is probably the hardest ofall of those attributes for
most leaders to get, because,you see, we grow up in a world
that says you do something toget something.
It's a quid pro quo, and graceisn't like that.
Grace is the unmerited favorthat you receive simply for

(27:37):
being who you are, like youdidn't do anything.
You don't have to do anythingto get grace.
And so the opportunity is couldthe leader practice those
moments where they wereextending grace without it being
attached to well they're anokay employee or they're a good
employee and oh, they don'tscrew up that often, and then
whatever.
I mean you can do all of that,but it's not grace.
So imagine if you could havethe distinction between that.

(28:00):
I'm going to just do it becauseof who you are, not because of
anything I expect to get back,not because I'm going to attach
it to anything.
What if I could just do it?
Wow, what would that be like?
So it's a hard experience formost leaders to have.
And then seeking the truth.
Seeking the truth is extremelyimportant, and that's the
reference to Good to Great,because Jim Collins, when he

(28:22):
wrote that book, was reallytrying to look for the level of
leader that he thought wouldreally be the best leader, and
what he came out with was notonly seeking the truth he used
the truth as the foundation butwhat he found was humility,
which is the next one is havinghumility.
The truth will do that to you.
Yeah, and the truth will do that.
And especially if you'reteachable and you're also

(28:42):
compassionate and you alsounderstand grace, you see how
the dynamics now work right.
And then it's about beingauthentic, being original, being
truthful to yourself and toothers.
So you have to have that aspectand then the last part is
making peace.
Are you able to make peace?
So those seven attributes areto be teachable, to be

(29:02):
compassionate, extend grace, toseek the truth, practice
humility, be authentic in howyou think and speak and do, and
then look to serve peace and tofind peace in everything you do.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
This is going to be the best podcast episode yet.
Well, I'm just going to saylisteners too, make sure.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
I mean, I know we just got all this really
valuable information, but youstill need to go out and get Dr
Hall's book.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Thank, you Get them all.
All three Make it a hat trick.
Oh there's a fourth one.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Oh hey, is it out yet .

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Oh yes, so it's called Back After Burnout and I
did it with Dennis Consorti andit is looking at the mental
health and the stress thatpeople have in the environment
today.
We feel that's an importantleadership component to be able
to do, and so we focus on thoseexercises and activities.
And so my section was reallyhow does cohesion actually

(29:58):
impact the leader's ability toreduce burnout, stress and
fatigue inside the organization?
What tips would they do?
And so I do a little workshopon this back after burnout.
It's called Seven Ways.
Cohesion Combats BurnoutPerfect.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Wow, it's true I mean it's the most important, one of
the most important things.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Well, you know, and then I didn't mean to interrupt
you, Mike, but you know,especially in Mount Pleasant,
where all of our Pleasant, wheremost of our members are, one of
the largest issues going on isemployees and then a lot of the
millennial, Gen X I hate usingterms, but that age group is a
little bit different than yousaid Gen X.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (30:40):
You mean millennials and Gen Z, gen Z, take it easy,
I don't even like, I don't evenlike.
Don't mess with gen x, okay, nogen x.
I know what a gen x is, uhyou're the forgotten generation.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
You know that.
I know it's terrible, but youare, but we're the best.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
We're the best I am the best, okay, the um, but
there's things have changed thatyou know from um people that
I've been working with that youknow there's a little bit more
that.
There's a little bit moredemand.
There's a little bit more ofthey want.
I worked 830 to 5 every day for30 years because that's what
you did and that's just not theway it is anymore.

(31:14):
So, with this new workforcecoming in and everything, how
can our businesses retain thesenew blood employees?
I don't want it, because it'sjust different.
It's a different, it's adifferent time yes.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
So when we think about so, there's a couple of
things.
One, I don't like togenerationally label people
either.
I don't like to put labelsbecause we spent a lot of time
in the in the last three yearsworking on diversity, equity and
inclusion and creating somefoundations to have people
really not only think but tomaybe more experience an

(31:52):
equality sense right that youhave.
So, with that being said, Idon't like to use those
generational categories because,quite frankly, I am a Gen Y
trapped in a baby boomer body.
So I kind of understand that.
But it's the thinking.
So what I like to think is eachgeneration provides a different

(32:12):
way to think.
So we want to take a look atthat generation's influence of
thinking, because we allinfluence each other and the
thinking that's occurring withinthis newest realm of workers
who come in are byproducts ofwhat's been happening in our
culture and in our world.
Whether it be here in the US orover across the pond, it all

(32:34):
interacts.
What I have found is that I lookmore at the behaviors of
individuals in the workforce asa collective as opposed to them
individually.
But I still rely on researchthat's done and research.
When they say they do the Gen Z.
That means they haveinterviewed individuals within
an age bracket that wouldidentify them as Gen Z and say,

(32:55):
oh, here are the characteristicsof Gen Z, which is okay.
But I think it's alsocautionary in that you should be
thinking more of how is thecollective working, because
you're not just hiring gen z,you've got all these other folks
that are interacting, so youneed to be thinking how does it
work?
So I created what I refer to asmy fair play that I think is

(33:16):
helpful for leaders to.
If they adopt these fourbehaviors within their
organization or these four waysof thinking about the workforce,
this might be helpful.
Okay, got my pen and paper here, Really Write this down
everybody.
And I, as I told you, it'smetaphorical.
I'm also I like acronymsbecause it helps people remember
things.
So it's FAIR, f-a-i-r play andit's flexible hours and

(33:41):
locations.
That's what people want.
They want that flexibility ofwhat's going on.
They want autonomy.
They want to know what they'resupposed to do for the job.
Then leave them alone and letthem do the job.
Give them the tools that theyneed.
Give them the instructions theyneed.
Let them know whether they havemonetary authority to buy
something.

(34:02):
Do they need to be working withother people to accomplish the
task?
Are there other departmentswhere they can get resources?
You know all of those types ofthings.
They want to know that from theautonomy so they can do the
work.
Then they want to be included.
So up until most recent surveys,the number one reason that a
person left a company, asidefrom having to move or they had

(34:24):
a life-changing event, was therelationship, or the lack of
relationship, with theirimmediate supervisor.
Today, they more accuratelydefine it as lack of inclusion.
That makes sense.
Yeah, so, but the lack ofinclusion is attributed to the
leadership, because it's asupervisor, because people think
of their job the way they'reconnected to their most

(34:45):
immediate supervisor.
That's how it's all about.
It's really relational driven,so it is really looking for
inclusion.
And the last one is readiness.
It's being ready for the nextjob, the next promotion, being
ready to do things at a veryhigh level, whether you want to
take a job in leadership or not.

(35:05):
What I also mention in thisreadiness why it's important is
that 71% of all employees seekgrowth, development and
advancement of some kind, sothat allows you to take in all
of the five generations that arecurrently working today in the
workforce.
The thing, though, that Ishould mention is a little bit

(35:27):
of an issue that we might beseeing in the next five to ten
years, and that is the age group.
The Gen Z age group is lesslikely to take a leadership role
than previous generations, andthey're less likely because they
believe in more of work-lifeintegration.
By the way, don't call itwork-life balance, it's
work-life integration.

(35:48):
Because when you think ofbalance?
What do you think you think of?
I've got multiple things inboth hands and I'm juggling them
and I'm doing this.
Well, that's not healthy.
What's healthy is integratingthem, because we can't separate
what we're doing in our lifewith our work.
We can't separate work with ourlife.
I mean, we know, like for justsome of the statistics around

(36:10):
stress, we know a large numberof employees somewhere in the
neighborhood of 70 to 80% havestress issues that are at work
that are just like verydemanding for them on on the job
.
Um, of that group there's a ahalf of them bring that work
home and integrated into thehome and some of them have

(36:32):
blamed stress on their negativebehavior.
And I said, oh, thank goodness,somebody has a reason to to
blame their poor behavior on, sothey're going to blame stress
to do it.
Yeah, that's.
My mom wouldn't go for that.
She'd say there's no characterbuilding in that.
Dude.
You've got to own.
You're being negative and rudeand whatever.
You own it and you figure outwhat it is and then figure out

(36:54):
how to stop it.
Come back to me.
You don't get an excuse.
I was never allowed to be rudeto somebody because they were
rude to me.
I was never allowed to dosomething bad to someone or harm
someone because they may haveharmed me.
That was just not part of thegame.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
What you said earlier too.
I'm not going to give my ageaway, but when I started in the
workforce, there was nocomputers.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
You did give your age away.
That's it I gave you a wholerange.
Okay, range.
I gave you a range of age.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
But there was no computers.
There was no.
Our office was one of the firstfax machines Obviously no cell
phones or anything like that.
So when I went to work, I wentto work, I did my job and I went
home, yeah, and so I was luckyto have worked in that time.
Now, like you said, my phonerings 24-7.
It is what it is, and you'reexpected to be there or answer

(37:46):
unless you have a good excuse.
So I am really trying and Ilove this advice of yours.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Okay, so you're not trying.
I just want to make sure youknow you're not trying.
You're doing.
I'm doing Because trying islimiting language.
So there's no trying just doingso.
I'm doing my best.
I doing.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
I'm doing everything I can perfect to um make sure
that I have a integration of mywork and my home, because both
are very important to me.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
So very important.
Yeah, congratulations, thankyou, congratulations great uh.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
What else can she do, though, to to help integrate
that?
What do you?
Do you have any questionsbehind that?
How can you better integratethe work like?

Speaker 1 (38:24):
shut my phone off and throw in the pool.
I'm not, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
I don't know well.
Okay, so there's just a fewlittle things that I would
mention to you about that.
The first thing is you have toset boundaries.
There you go, so you make sureyou know the boundaries that
you're setting.
What are the rules ofengagement for work?
What are the rules engagementfor home?
You have to set aside your time, just like at work.
You set around project time ortime that you want to work on

(38:47):
something.
I'm a big believer in calendarblocking.
I don't know how I wouldsurvive without it.
It's been so helpful to me toeven put in time when I want to
read, or time I want to look atan article.
I may put 15 minutes on thecalendar to make sure that I
know that I had that timededicated to do it, because I'm
very much a task person.
It comes a list.

(39:07):
You know like I like lists andthings and I can accomplish and
do that, so it works really well.
So I would do that.
Something else that you can dovery simply is you can change
your clothes when you come homefrom work.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Immediately.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
Immediately, because when you do, it gives a
separation between that.
I just spoke at a conferenceearlier this week and we were
sharing some of the things thatindividuals do, and one of the
participants said she likes towash her hands and she says
anytime that she feels stress,she just goes to the restroom
and she washes her hands.
She follows that 22nd happybirthday rule Are you seeing the

(39:44):
happy birthday rule?
And she does that, and so sheoffered it and I thought yes,
this is great that you're beingcreative and you're finding the
things that that allow you totake that break away so that you
can come back and be energizedagain.
It's like working on a problem.
You can drive yourself crazy,working hours and hours on a
problem, but it's amazing whathappens when you walk away and
come back.
It's like you see itdifferently.

(40:05):
It's like I'm looking at thesame stuff I was looking at
before, but I see it sodifferently.
It's the craziest thing.
Why is that?
Why is it like that?
It's your brain.
You're giving your brain abreak, okay, and your brain gets
a chance to refresh.

(40:27):
Unplug the computer, plug itback in type of thing.
Yeah, which is the typical itresponse anytime it doesn't work
.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Have you turned it off and turned it on, and is it
plugged in?
Yes, so, yes, so I can be an itexpert.
No, I'm just kidding my friendswho are it experts.
I love you, I love you, I needyou, I'm not it.
What would fanny say about theguilt I feel sometimes about
that, though?

Speaker 3 (40:36):
she would say let it go.
She would say, girl, let it go.
What good is guilt?
Good you guilt?
What good is the guilt?
You know what, I'm not sure,right, if?

Speaker 1 (40:42):
I was invited to something and I couldn't go
because I had something that'sjust Maybe.
That's the way my mom raised me.
You accept the feeling, theguilt factor on that?

Speaker 3 (40:51):
That's the not apologizing.
There's nothing to apologizefor when you do it.
You would apologize if you saidyou're event, then you would
apologize.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yes, I would never do that.
Then you would absolutelyapologize.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
So that would be something.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yeah, it's a huge difference in doing that.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
So no, that's what she would do.
Okay, well, every time I startto feel guilty, I'm going to go
Fanny Fanny, fanny Fanny fromnow on, and I'm sure it's going
to help me.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
Yeah, so she has a lot of.
I think that to happen.
You know I've got all theselittle really are little little
sayings, because I also findit's easier for people to
remember the message when youwrap it around, the the uh, a
concept, right, right it's.
The concepts can be there, butyou can ground the concept in
something you can kind ofremember or focus on.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
It really helps you I had an idea, um, through this
research and conversation, uh,we, we, as the chamber, should
hold a best place to work gala.
Like have a best place to workaward and throw a gala around
that it's probably been donelocally right, but not by the
chamber.
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
He's brainstorming in the moment, I know, and so
here's the advice I always giveLike if brainstorming is someone
who's going to take thepressure off of, is that you
don't make policy and proceduresin front of the room.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
I've never, so that's the thing for leaders.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
Like, you have ideas, you can talk about it, but
don't make policy and procedurein front of the room and don't
feel pressured to make thatpolicy or procedure difference
in front of the room becauseit's too much pressure.
And then what if you want tolike in the moment it moment it
sounded really good and then allof a sudden you think about it
later and you go oh my gosh whatwas that?

Speaker 1 (42:21):
I have a lot of those dumb ideas.
One that's gonna have to do it.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
I have a lot of those listen, and he was talking
about the fresh legs earliertoday and I.
I wanted to tell you like youhadn't introduced me yet so I
couldn't jump in, but I wasgoing like, okay, now there's an
interesting approach.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yes, so we look for fresh legs, yeah yeah, so we, we
need retention, we need people,we need membership here, so
that was a great point.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
So focus on belonging , value and commitment.
Make sure that the individualswithin the chamber feel that
they're included.
Is their voice heard?
Are there ways in which theycan bring forward ideas that
they can work on?
How do you make what they domeaningful to the chamber?
How is that work meaningful forthem and meaningful for the

(43:06):
chamber?
So, again, it has to have thatbecause it leads to the shared
mutual commitment which iscollaboration.
And are you looking foropportunities?
And what I will tell you is itcould be a little interesting
exercise to determine how manyof the chamber members truly
believe they need each personwho's a part of the chamber

(43:26):
interesting sort of conversationthat they need everyone.
They have to understand theconcept that they need now.
Does that mean I'm going to gobuy a service from every
particular person?
Yeah, anybody who heard thatand wrote that down like no,
that's not what I meant.
So what I'm saying is that youhave to need them, meaning that
their contribution, their mindpower, their energy into the
space, their resources, you needthat.

(43:48):
That has to be a part of it.
And then you have to trust thatthey're going to do the job
that they said they were goingto do.
Whatever is sort of thecovenants of belonging to the
chamber they are going tosupport that.
You have to trust that they'regoing to put it into place, that
they're going to pay their dues.
They're going to contributeinto activities.
That's to do every activity.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
No, but there would be some participation that would
be necessary and that's that'swhat you do well, I think we
always talk about one of the oneof the reasons we believe
people do not renew theirmembership after they join
because we do offer a lot isthat they don't take advantage
of anything, of anything that wehave to offer.
Then they say, oh, it's justnot for me right, because you
haven't created the inclusionexactly all you did, okay, so

(44:31):
one of the things that we'll do.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
So if you're game for this, I'm going to ask you some
questions.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Okay, let's go, I'm good.
If you're good, okay, yeah lotsof little things.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
So we're good.
So I'm going to ask you thequestion.
Okay, so have you.
So I think let's see whatquestion I want to ask you first
.
I'm scared.
Let me think about this.
I know me too.
I want to think about this, AmI?

Speaker 1 (44:48):
answering from chamber or my work.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Chamber president Okay, chamber president, very
good.
You might want to do this one.
This will be a home, okay.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Okay, so you throw parties.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Yeah, okay.
So everyone listening now hasan invitation to a party for
Kathy right, because she'sthrowing a party.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
Can't wait.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
All right.
So you got that invitation, andso the initial idea is you feel
like you belong right Because,oh, I got an invitation.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
I feel like I belong.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Now think about this.
In the work environment, youextend an offer to an employee.
Oh my gosh, I got the offerright.
Now we come to the party.
So in the party, you've madesome preparations for the party
and the doorbell rings.
And then what's your normalreaction?
What do you do when thedoorbell rings?
Come in, Come in, right.
Let's go Join the party.
Right, you might tell themabout the food.
You might let them know wherethe restroom is.

(45:35):
You might tell them about somemusic, where the drinks are.
You might even give them adrink.
I mean, maybe you even havesomebody standing there with
drinks and ready to take onewhen you go in.
Well, you know that littleconcept.
And, of course, the invitationto dance is really important.
So those people who are nowseeing me, you know.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
now I see the little dancing Listeners.
He's dancing and we're doingthis little dancing and I kind
of do this.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
And then my daughter says dad, stop dancing.
And I go honey, why would Istop dancing?
And she says because you'reembarrassing me.
And I go great, my work here isdone, so, but all of those
things that you did now make mefeel included.

(46:18):
So on the first day that theemployee shows up, what is the
onboarding experience?
like, are you including them?
And for those individuals whoaren't taking advantage of the
things that are happening, howdo you help them feel included
without making them feel guiltyor wrong that they chose not to
do it?
How do you encourage them toget to that particular space?

(46:39):
Then you can distinguish thedifference between someone who
signed up who said, yeah, I'vekind of had all these
opportunities, but it's reallynot right for me, they're not
wrong, it's really not right forthem, so they get to leave.
To the person who said I signedup for it but nobody talked to
me, nobody asked me information.
I went to a luncheon and I sortof was sitting by myself
because everybody else, who allknew each other, they were all

(47:01):
talking and they were allincluding and no one included me
.
And so it's real important thatwe also expand this to.
If you're really engaged inleadership and for me the
conversation is anyone who worksat a company is a leader.
Whether you're answeringquestions, moving files,
supporting something else, Imean you're a leader.

(47:22):
You've got to think about thatleadership.
But specifically, I want tothink about this you go to a
chamber, function, do the samepeople sit at the same table all
the time.
If you do, that's okay, but canyou not just shake it up, or
could you not just invitesomebody new to come and sit
with you every now and then kindof rotate a little bit around?
You have to do those types ofthings when you are standing up

(47:42):
and talking and three or fourpeople are together.
I recommend and so this is againpart of some of the teaching is
that you assume that there's afourth person, so there's three
of you.
You assume the fourth person,so you stand assuming that
there's a fourth person standingthere, because that open space
now allows somebody to walk upinto that conversation and know
that they are accepted.

(48:03):
They can be accepted into it.
They don't have to worry aboutam I catching up with the
conversation?
You don't have to worry about aspecial invitation.
So when they join, then what doyou do?
Well, you move again and nowcreate a space for five.
And so that's the idea behindNonverbal there too.
That's right.
So that's the idea behind that.

(48:27):
It's not just getting aninvitation, but now I have to be
included and you have to make.
It's gotta be your job.
Everybody has to assume it'stheir job to include someone
else.
It even works for consumers.
This idea of belonging value andshared commitment.
We have built a sales programsaround it, member service
programs around it, because wewant the culture that you have
inside the organization to beextended outside the four walls.
And so giving you somestructure by saying think about

(48:50):
belonging value and commitment.
And what does that look likefrom the consumer's experience,
not only from the employeeexperience, but the consumer's
experience as well?
And what are you doing and howare you, as an employee, making
that connection with theconsumer?
And it's not just about themtaking products and services

(49:13):
which might mean value for you.
It's saying how meaningful isit?
So are you making sure that theproducts and services that
people have are meeting theneeds that they have?
If it's not meeting the needs,it's not going to be meaningful
work, it's just going to beyou've taken advantage.
Or it could very well be that aperson just wants a product or

(49:34):
service.
They don't want meaningful workso great, so they understand
that.
But we're talking about that asan exception, not the rule.
The rule is most individuals,we all have an innate desire, as
human beings, to want tocohabitate, to want to be
involved, to want to connect, towant to relate.

(49:54):
Whether we do so person toperson or whether we do it
through a remote environment, itdoesn't matter.
We still want connection.
And then we like to know thatwe have purpose.
Rick Warren spent a lifetime,he spent an entire career,
creating the purpose-driven life, and it's really fundamentally
so.
It doesn't matter whether it'spurpose-driven for faith or

(50:14):
whether it's purpose-driven formy social or social-driven for
my work.
Whatever it is, it's like Iwant to know that what I'm doing
is meaningful and valuable, andthen I want to have those
opportunities to really exerciseall of that.
And that's where collaborationcomes in for my shared mutual
commitments.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
And then that's where Tuckman comes into play.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Yes, you asked me about Tuckman, so I might just
choose to use my English accent.
I noticed you had an Englishaccent.
I have an English accent everynow and then.
Once he gets important, once hesounds important, I feel like
he goes the English.
Oh, yes, I sound so importantwhenever I go English.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
So isn't that?
You were just talking about1965, tuckman made these stages
right?
Yes, so he did.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
And that's what you?
Yeah, so my research usedTuckman's theory and it's all
about group dynamics.
So it's the forming of thegroup, it's the storming that
happens after people kind of gettogether.
You know, when people firstshow up, everyone's happy.
Then I spend a little more timewith them, and then you've got
that storming personality andyou're trying to figure out what

(51:13):
is the identity of the groupand you know how will people
interact with the group and thenyou move to where you are
conforming and so now the groupis actually gelling.
They've created the boundariesand all that, and then you go to
performing and that's where thegroup is now rocking and
rolling.
And just for the record forthose people who might be
listening, in 1970, tuckmanworked with Janice and created

(51:37):
the fifth stage, which isadjourning, and I didn't use
that in my research because ajourney was the end of it and I
was focusing on the activitiesof the group dynamics in that
group life cycle.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
And then you did something else different too,
didn't you?
You went single versus group.
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
So the research basically was always group
dynamics.
Things around cohesion werealways studied as a group.
So it was taking a group ofpeople together and asking them
questions, interviewing them,getting some responses, because
they had that familiarity thatthey were in a group, they were
in the same space, what it wouldbe.
So I said, oh, wait a minute,there is research out there that

(52:13):
says that I can self-describeor self-indicate where I am
based on a description.
If I give a really gooddescription of what those four
stages are, I could say, oh, inthis I'm over here, no, no, no,
I'm over here, like I would know, based on the definition.
So we ask the individuals and Ialways tend to use the word we,

(52:38):
even though it was my research,because I have a committee that
was involved in the evaluationof, even though it was my
research, because I have acommittee that was involved in
the evaluation of it to make ityeah.
So it's kind of like they werethe team that made me honest and
held me accountable for what itwas I was doing so.
But I can have individuals nowdeclare pick wherever you are in
any project, any company,wherever you are, are you?

(53:01):
Are you at which one of thosefour stages?
So you individually declaredwhere you were.
You were not part of a wholebig group, you were an
individual.
Then you answered the questionsto determine how cohesive are
you?
Based on the answers to thosequestions.
That would be the scale or themodel that we that was put
together for those questions todetermine those answers and what

(53:28):
the research was able to prove.
The hypothesis proved thatcohesion positively impacts
performance in all stages of agroup's life cycle.
The level of performance thatyou get is engagement.
Engagement is defined ashelpful, active, vested and
eager.
Those four elements are part ofthat engagement and that's what
organizations want.
So I'm sort of like active,vested and eager.
Those four elements are part ofthat engagement and that's what
organizations want.
So I'm sort of like oh wait,here's a secret sauce you don't
have to worry about.

(53:48):
Oh, my job is to make myemployees happy today, or my job
is to make individualssatisfied.
No, that's you individually.
You take care of the happinessand satisfaction on your own,
but as a leader, you create acohesive environment where
people can get along and you putthat out there.
That's what your job is.
Your job and I often said it'snot your job to make people

(54:09):
happy or satisfied it's to makesure that you don't become the
reason that they are unhappy orunsatisfied.
That's another problem.
So focus on those cohesiveelements and really bring that
forward in the things that youdo, in the coaching, in the
training programs, in the thingsthat you put in place.
Make sure all of that is sortof is all considered, because

(54:30):
cohesion is a causal phenomenon.
It's not correlational.
So I'm now going to do anotherquestion.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Please do, mike.
It's time, oh, oh, so I want todo you.
You're on the spot, mike.
What did you just say there,doc?

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Hold on, repeat what you just said, though, and break
it down a little bit thatcohesion is causal, it's not
correlational, okay, and sowe'll do this little question
and answer, and then we'll dofurther to help you understand
what that is.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
It's okay, you have to wait for the question.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
So have you experienced a rainy day?
Yes, yes not in charleston wellin charleston I like to say
yesterday I like to say that Ithat I live in charleston, where
, even when it rains, the sunstill shines, yeah okay good, so
true all right.
Yes, and if I live in melpleasant, then it's I.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
It rains with unicorns and uh skittles and all
kinds of other fun stuff.
Exactly that, that's all good.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Yes, okay.
So rainy day, you'veexperienced a rainy day.
How do you prepare for therainy day?
So I go ahead and get myumbrella, you get an umbrella
and do you always take anumbrella with you for a rainy
day?
Yes, yes.
And do you ever have otherequipment or other things that
you take with you or are part ofrainy days?

(55:42):
A uh other equipment or otherthings that you take with you,
or a part of rainy days, araincoat, okay, so raincoat, or
slicker poncho, something else.
So you've got all these, this,so all this serves as equipment
for you for a rainy day.
Yep, okay, great, and um, haveyou been to the beach?
Yes, I'm not going to ask himwhat he was wearing, okay.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
So we'll keep that between us, okay, no?

Speaker 3 (56:02):
we'll keep that between us.
Okay, no, we'll keep thatbetween us.
And then, have you seenumbrellas on the beach?
Yes, and were those umbrellasopened?
Yes, and was it raining?
No, okay, I can make acorrelation between umbrellas
and rainy days.
Whether you take an umbrella orwon't take an umbrella, whether
you'll open an umbrella, won'topen an umbrella, and it's all
forecasting.
So forecasting is great, and soorganizations will continue to
forecast all they want.
They'll be able to use the data, information, statistics, to

(56:28):
kind of say, hey, I kind ofreasonably think this is going
to happen, but you cannotpredict employee behavior
without a cause and effect.
Cohesion is cause and effect.
When cohesion is present, youget performance every single
time.
It's not just my research, it's50 years of research that
continues to improve it.
All I did was say, oh, I canshow you how it works on an
individual level.
So that was my little add tothe literature.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Awesome.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
And so that's what it is.
So if you want to predict thebehavior of your employees,
focus on putting cohesion in.
And how I equate, that isNewton's law of gravity or
gravativity.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
I guess I probably have to say it with an English
accent, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'mgoing to say gravativity, and
when you say it like that, itdoesn't matter what you say, it
makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
Is it a word?
It is now.
But his theory of gravity.
And what happens is, when theapple separated from the branch,
it fell to the ground, and sogravity is the cause to produce
the effect of falling.
Yeah, and we understand that ascause and effect.
That's what cohesion is.

(57:33):
It's a cause and effect, uh,scenario.
We.
I refer to it as the cohesionphenomenon.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
I love it that's amazing I can't follow that up
with anything else.
I do want to one more thing.
I do have another one of ourfriends.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Just one more our friend, um benjamin toy oh, very
dear friend of benjaminbenjamin, uh, and I understand
that you're working with him onsome aspects, so we'd love to
hear a little bit about that.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
So Ben Jammin and I have come together to take the
programs and services around thetrademarked cohesion culture
program to a whole new level theeducation and training that we
provide to organizations.
So we have a whole consultingprogram that we do, but the
training is what really is sounique and different.
There are no trust falls, norope courses and no death by

(58:22):
PowerPoint.
So unique and different thereare no trust falls, no rope
courses and no death byPowerPoint.
And so it's all about creatinghands-on experiential activities
that teach you leadershipprinciples and allow you to
experience them, allow you toask questions about them, to
learn from them so that you canapply them.
We call it experience today,implement tomorrow, and it is
what is different about what wedo?

(58:43):
It makes our courses unique, andit was that was important to me
and from a marketingperspective, you'll appreciate
this.
This is how do you distinguishyourself in the market from
everybody else who's doing this?
Leadership programs.
What do you do?
That's different?
We do it through experiential,hands-on activities, and imagine
going into it where you don'thave the classroom set up

(59:04):
anymore.
You have people getting up andmoving around and interacting
and then sharing information.
We do create a discussion guide, which is a single sheet,
because what we found early onis the absence of them being
able to make notes or to writethings down.
They felt like, oh, you'regiving us all this great
information, but I have no wayto record it.

(59:25):
So now we provide a smallsingle-sheet discussion guide
that they can use.
Through the program, we givethem time to make some of their
thoughts down on paper.
The other thing we also do iseveryone commits to a habit,
either something that they havebeen doing that they now
understand why they were doingit, or something new that they
picked up from the session, andso we then bring life to it by

(59:47):
asking them to speak it.
Sometimes they speak it intothe room and sometimes they
speak it to individuals at theirtable, depending upon how large
our groups are, because I meanwe've done groups up to 300
people.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Oh my, what's the name of?

Speaker 3 (59:57):
the program again, we do it's.
Cohesion Culture is our programand specifically we've got
sessions that we offer forexecutives of organizations, for
the VPs and middle managers.
We have a new supervisorprogram that we launched.
It's three specific coursestwo-hour courses.
We've launched them to beonline because we've not talked

(01:00:18):
much about remote, but we shouldprobably touch on it if we've
got a couple of minutes to dothat.
And then we offer sessions towhat we call the individual
contributors of the organizationand it's a core program that we
do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Is there a URL?

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Yes, so you would go to either one of our websites
Mine would be drtroyhallcom.
That's drtroyallcom.
Look up Cohesion Culture.
You'll find the information.
Or you can go to Ben's website,which is onpurposeadventurescom
, and go to his Cohesion Cultureprogram and again same

(01:00:54):
information.
We sort of package it just alittle differently because of
our audiences that we speak to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
I'm interested how long has that been going on that
partnership between?

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
you and Ben.
So it is a strategic alliance,so it's not a partnership, and I
have to declare that because wedo not have a formal
partnership agreement.
We're not like this.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
It's part of where I'm headed.
Okay, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
So we create a strategic alliance network, and
so we're colleagues that havecome together to work on similar
projects and to make thingshappen.
And so there are five of us whoare part of what we call the
Cohesion Culture Crew, and sothey are prepared to help
facilitate these programs fororganizations.
Most of the consulting workeither myself or Ben handles the

(01:01:36):
consulting work with the client.
To do that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
So when did that start though?

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Oh yeah, you asked when it started.
It started in 2019.
So, okay, and, and so we were,and so ben and I had this whole
thing all put together.
We were going to take hisoutdoor programs that he
originally had.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
He actually he invited me to a session which
actually I met from a chamberfunction my question is how
would my next we met at achamber function and perfect, I
love that he invited me and saidwould you like to come see?

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
we're doing a session for a group out of town here at
the park and I went, okay,that'd be great, I'll come.
And I saw it and he was quotinglike four or five other books,
their leadership principles, andI just got to thinking as I was
sitting there going let methink here I have a book on
leadership principles all in onespace.
everything you're talking aboutit's all in one book.

(01:02:24):
And so, um, through theconversation, I talked to him
about it and said, hey, I wantyou to consider using the
cohesion culture book as yourframework for for that.
What would that look like?
And he was like, yeah, I'minterested.
We had some meetings.
We had so much energy andexcitement that came from it.
And listen, for a guy whosename is ben jammin, come on, you
would expect energy to be inthe room.

(01:02:45):
He brings it every time hebrings it every single time.
Plus, he is one of the nicesthumans I have ever met.
I would put him on the nicehuman list for anyone that has
interacted with Ben that wouldfeel that way, and so we were
all prepared to do.
Our program was CohesionCulture Camp.
We were rolling out CohesionCulture Camp in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
February of 20, right .

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
And then March of 20 happens and then it's like, oh,
what do we do?
We pivot and I then write afive-week, five-module Cohesion
Culture Camp course.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
So they take it online.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
So now they can take it online.
It's cohesionculturecoursecom,so people can go and do the
program.
We have corporations who runthis program internally and then
all their new employees willthen take it, and so once
everyone's been trained, thenthis is a way to bring everybody
on board.
It's interesting, and whatmakes this program different is

(01:03:42):
it's five modules, five weeks.
You can't do all five modulesin one sitting.
We open up a new module everyseven days.
That way you are allowing theinformation to live and breathe,
even if you may not be activelyinvolved in it.
The lessons that we areinstructing, the lessons that
we're talking about, we do itthrough video.
We do it through littleworkbook exercises.

(01:04:03):
We give you a weekly challengeto do.
We teach you things that youcan implement at work through a
video series.
I mean it's just all thesethings that will allow you to
really make it interactive andappealing.
The thing about the course isthree things.
One you have to be teachable.

(01:04:24):
You've already heard I'm a bigbig, you have to be teachable.
You've already heard I'm a bigbig, you have to be teachable.
Take the course.
If you're not gonna beteachable, don't take the course
.
You're just wasting your money.
The second thing is we want youto understand that you're a
leader.
And then the third thing is wewant to make sure that you will
approach what you're learningthrough the lens CEO.
So it doesn't matter whetheryou are in executive leadership

(01:04:46):
or you are an individualcontributor you are learning
about leadership.
What is really awesome when youput it in place in a company is
that the employees understandhow leadership should behave.
Leadership knows how they'resupposed to behave, because all
the employees now know itcreates such wonderful
transparency and accountabilitythat happens through the program
.
That's really good.
I think we're out of time,aren't we?

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
No, oh no, are we good.
You brought up something, Imean it's 22.
Are we good?
Yeah, we're good.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
Okay, great, as long as people will continue to
listen.
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
A lot of businesses.
Oh, something happened on thecomputer.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
The iPad there, a lot of companies.
It's probably been off for anhour.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
I don't know, I haven't noticed, but it's fine,
it is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
It is what it is A lot of companies.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
This is podcast first anyways.
Nowadays they're havingchallenges keeping the culture
cohesive in the virtual andhaving virtual employees.
Do you have any best practicesor any kind of thoughts?
I'm sure you do have manythoughts behind.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
How do you keep a culture cohesive with a virtual
so the first thing I want to sayis this I do not instruct
organizations or consult withthem to make sure that they do
remote.
They have to make that decisionon their own.
Okay, so I'm saying, if youfeel that remote work works in
your organization for yourstructure and the types of
things you do, great.

(01:06:10):
But what I do tell everyone isthis Stop calling it work from
home.
It's demeaning.
It is not necessarily work fromhome.
When I was on my way over hereand I was in the parking lot, I
was working remotely.
Right, exactly, I agree, I wasworking, so it is not just work

(01:06:35):
from home, and you haveindividuals where you have
allowed their home base to serveas an office, so you've already
given permission to do that, soit should just be remote work.
Language is extremely important.
We latch on to words.
Words have meaning and theyhave power in what we do.
I like to think that when wespeak, life uh, when we speak

(01:06:57):
we're actually creating life.
So what we speak makes adifference.
So be careful what you saychoose wisely.
So it is understanding that,first of all, in remote work,
you still have to haveboundaries, just like you do if
you were in the office.
What are the requirements?
Spell them out.
One of the things that isdefinitely important is the

(01:07:19):
visualization connection.
So certainly when you have theopportunity to connect with
coworkers or with clients, thenthe opportunity should always be
visual first and then voicesecond.
So you should be thinking aboutvisual meetings that you would
want to have and conduct, andthen you would then think about

(01:07:39):
phone as being another secondaryoption or the no screen option.
I've had people in thebeginning tell me things like oh
, but my hair doesn't look good.
And I'm like well, what wouldhappen if you went into work?
What would you put a brownpaper bag on your head?
What?
You'd still go into work, right?
Your hair look good or not,right?
So yeah, you got to think aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
So I also think there's a misconception out
there that people who workremotely which I agree, I love
that word Don't work as hard aspeople who are in the office.
And I'm going to say the exactopposite for me.
I am not a fan of workingremotely.
I like to be in my office, butI work harder when I'm remote.

(01:08:18):
I don't know if it's a mentalthing, but I set up my computer,
I set everything up, I go intomy little office and I just
don't stop At the office, I takea walk.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
At home.
No.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
When I'm in the office.
I will take a walk on theproperty I'll get a couple of
calls when I'm working remotely.
I don't seem to move.
So I'm the opposite of thatmisconception.
What I think is funny I workharder when I'm remote than I do
in my office.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
So part of the remote work, though, is making sure
that you have set up metrics tohelp you evaluate, because the
worst thing that can happen isyou have a preconceived idea of
something and then you expressthat preconceived idea.
The other thing, too, is, asstrongly as you feel about the
remote work that you might beharder working or more
productive, you have to becareful, as a leader, that you

(01:09:06):
don't impose your biases intothe group.
You can influence people somuch by what you say and what
you do that you don't want it tobe like make an assumption that
everybody who works remotelyworks harder than people who
work in the office, and viceversa, and vice versa.
So what you would need to do isto make sure you've got some
metrics to measure the work thatis actually being done, that

(01:09:29):
sometimes the difference in aremote work environment versus
an in-office environment is youmay have less distractions when
you're working remotely than youmight do when you're in the
office, where people just popinto your office or they yell
something over the cubicle orwhatever is happening that sort
of dynamics and or people aretaking walks or they're going
into the lunchroom and thenthey're having a 20-minute

(01:09:51):
conversation in the lunchroom.
They don't have that whenthey're working remotely, and
the opportunity is that to beeffective.
When you work remotely, it'snot managing the person for the
number of hours they're working,but you're managing them for
the quality of the work they'redoing, and that's what you'll
focus on.
So that's what we try to teachsupervisors.
It's managing them verydifferent.

(01:10:12):
When they're in the office,everyone's looking to make sure
everybody's sitting at theirdesk.
If they're not at their desk,they go.
Where's Johnny?
Where's Timmy?
Where's Lucy?
Where's Belinda?
I want to know where thesepeople are when they're working
remotely.
They just have to rely that thework is being done.
That's why they need a metricto ensure that they're actually
completing the work that theyneed to do.
So I believe that to beimportant.
The other thing is when youthink about connections and

(01:10:35):
getting people together.
How often do you connect withthe individuals who are working
remotely as opposed to theindividuals who are in the
office?
Are you creating an environmentwhere individuals are brought
together?
One of the programs that weoffer is called a cohesion
huddle.
It's a two to three minute, andI want you both to say two to

(01:10:56):
three minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Two to three minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Okay, good, it's two to three minute huddle and it's
called a cohesion huddle.
So you might have huddlesalready, so your company may
have that as a company name.
So we call it a cohesion huddle.
So you might have huddlesalready, so your company may
have that as a company name.
So we call it a cohesion huddlebecause our two to three
minutes get started.
We're at the beginning, thenyou can do whatever else you
want afterwards.
The two to three minutes setsthe tone for the day.
It is your opportunity toacknowledge the individual, to

(01:11:19):
provide some recognition, someaffirmation.
It's to set the tone.
Here's a quote that I want youto think about.
Here's some poetry.
I have one client they do asong, they actually do dancing,
so they do it on Fridays.
So that's their huddle.
It only happens once a week,again, although we recommend it
happen daily because it's howlong?

(01:11:40):
Two to three minutes Perfect,you guys are such quick learners
.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
I know we're teachable.
We're really listening to youtoday.
We're very teachable.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
It's two to three minutes, and so they do this
dancing.
And they had individuals,consumers, who would then come
into the office afterwards sothey would see them dancing
through the glass doors and then, when the doors opened and the
music stopped, nobody wasdancing and those individuals
were like wait a minute, what'sgoing on?
Why can't we do it?
So they now incorporate andallow their consumers to do the

(01:12:12):
dancing part of it, and soindividuals would be on the
screen in their remoteenvironment.
Individuals there, they wereall participating in this huddle
.
We were creating not only thisbelonging, but inclusion.
Everyone was now included.
And what I love about that story?
It goes back to what I saidearlier, which is how you extend

(01:12:33):
the culture from inside theorganization to the outside of
the organization.
The same principles you thinkabout for the employees, you
should be thinking about for theconsumers, and it bridges and
brings it together.
If you do meetings virtually,when we got together for our
physical meeting because we weremeeting here in person and we
knew we were going to start oursession at 1230, did we come in

(01:12:55):
at 1230 and sit down and justget started?

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
No, what did we do?

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
We met first.
We met a few minutes rightbeforehand.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
So what we find happens with these online
programs whether it's Zoom,whether it's Teams, whether it's
Skype for Business, whateversystem you're using for virtual
individuals come at the momentthe meeting starts and they
don't come early.
They haven't built enoughmargin.

(01:13:23):
So what we try to teach is tomake sure the employee is
building margin into theseactivities and then, as a leader
, you should be signing on atleast five minutes ahead of time
so that when people sign on andto welcome people when they
come in, your job is not to turnit on and then go do something
else.
You should be doing thesomething else, so that five
minutes minimum of five minutes,it can be 10 or 15, depending

(01:13:45):
upon what your culture is andwhat you want to do but when you
come in, you should be greetingthe individual and asking them
what we call a cohesionconversation starter.
And so we have questions thatwe design.
We design 52 questions thatorganizations can ask their
employees in the beginnings ofmeetings so that they can talk,
because it's about relationships, that work gets done with

(01:14:08):
people, and people usetechnology, they use tools, but
it's still people involved indoing it.
I understand there's roboticsand people might say, yes, but
what about that and that'sanother whole topic altogether,
and we're talking about theinteractions of the human
component into this.
So that's just one example.

(01:14:29):
And, of course, having thescreen on everyone should have
the screen on when they actuallyare doing any of those types of
meetings, when they do it.
And then the question is whatis the?
There's a nuance that happensafter a meeting.
Sometimes some of the bestbrainchild stuff happens when
you're walking down the hallwaygoing back to your office where
you have some interactionafterwards.
Do you set up for that to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
No, you click that leave meeting as fast as
possible and you're done andthen you don't even talk about
it again, right?

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
So you should be thinking about what would be an
appropriate debrief Interesting.
And then I have another littletheory, and that is so we're
going to work remote and aperson is working in the office,
so we've got this hybridenvironment, these two
individuals typically maybe,they interact and they sometimes
have some reasons to talk backand forth with each other.

(01:15:17):
So what I recommend is thatthey set up a time for them to
both be on the screens, on mute,visibly on the screens.
They see each other.
I have my human connection.
If I have something I want tosay, I unmute and say something,
and you now create thosenuances.
So you have to go forward andthink what were the things I did

(01:15:40):
, maybe that I didn't thinkabout when I was doing them
face-to-face, that I now want toincorporate in a remote
environment?
And then you implement them.
And did that cost any moremoney?
No, all these suggestions arethings that you can do without
costing you more money, and butit's not enough just to write it
down and for you to go oh, fromthis podcast.
I now got it, because you haveto infuse behavior into your

(01:16:03):
workforce.
So we use the cohesion infusionframework and we help them then
make sure that all these thingsthat we bring forward that you
want to incorporate.
The other thing that has tohappen is you have to have
infrastructure.
Think about it this way you say, oh, I want to infuse cohesion
into my neighborhood, and sothat means you want to build
houses.
Oh, I don't have any streets, Ihave no utilities, I don't have

(01:16:25):
any of that stuff put up.
You've got to put ininfrastructure, otherwise you
just get a lot of great ideasfrom other people that you think
are going to work, that don'twork, and then you don't want to
do them because they don't work.
Meanwhile you didn't put theinfrastructure in.
No wonder they didn't work.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
That's amazing information.
I cannot thank you enough forall these words of wisdom to all
of our business this year.
But before I let you go.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
It's almost too much, Dr Troy.
Well, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
So, before you go, please remind our listeners the
names of your books and wherethey can get more information on
purchasing those and moreinformation on your services.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
So I'm just going to focus on the Cohesion Culture
book, because that's the basisof the work we do, and then, of
course, the Fannie rules, whichis the leadership.
So focus on those two books foryou, and you can get them on
Amazon.
You can connect with me atdrtroyhallcom.
There's an opportunity for youto schedule an appointment.
If you want to make a phonecall or want to do something,

(01:17:21):
it's right there for you.
It's very easy.
It's drtroyhallcom.
And then LinkedIn is where Iprimarily spend a lot of my time
.
That's where most of my clientsare, so I spend my time where
my clients are.
My clients are not on TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
So I don't spend time on TikTok Not yet.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
And they may not be if certain rules and things
follow through.
We'll see what happens there,so I don't know about that, but
LinkedIn, and then you can findme as DR Troy Hall.

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
Thank you so very much for spending all this time
with us.
You're welcome, really greathaving you.
And, of course, a thank you toCharleston Radio Group and our
friend Brian Cleary here forhaving us in their studios.
If you would like to be asponsor or be a guest on our
show, you can reach out to usand we'll get back to you, and I
always want to make sure I getthese right.
Mike, be sure to LIKE andsubscribe to all of our media

(01:18:06):
channels Spotify, itunes,youtube, instagram, facebook and
LinkedIn yeah, right, yeah, gotthem all.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
I can't review too, yeah you know right reviews also
thought about this episode.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
If you want to hear more well, thank you so much for
allowing me to be here, and soI'll just leave you with this
message.
And we talked about it earlier,and that is you don't have to
know everything, you just needto be teachable fantastic,
that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
Thank you so much for being with us today.
Until next time out pleasant,until next time, listeners.

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