October 31, 2024 • 27 mins
Can you imagine navigating the chaotic waters of a startup while capturing every twist and turn? Join us as we recount our unvarnished journey of building Stacklist from the ground up. We promise to share the raw authenticity reminiscent of early entrepreneurial stories, taking you through our highs and lows, from managing complex team dynamics to the rollercoaster of shifting strategies. As we look to the future, our aim is to grow Stacklist into a thriving venture without losing the essence of our startup mindset.
How can a focus on users redefine an entire industry? Reflecting on our experiences with a large hotel company, we explore this question by contrasting traditional corporate goals with Airbnb's user-centric disruption. The narrative highlights the critical need for adaptability and shunning complacency. By drawing parallels with how innovations like Airbnb and the iPad faced initial resistance yet became integral to our lives, we underline the importance of staying attuned to evolving user needs in creating impactful change.
Bringing new team members on board in a startup is no small feat. We share candid insights on the tension between establishing organized processes and the reality of working with limited resources. Our reflections emphasize finding individuals who can thrive in unstructured environments while infusing order into chaos. Through spontaneous recording sessions, we've documented our real-time problem-solving, capturing the essence of our entrepreneurial journey. This episode offers a window into the fast-paced, unpredictable world of startups, where resilience and adaptability are key.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think it could be good every now and then for you
and I just to record like candidthoughts.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Everybody has opinion and sometimes it gets to our
heads.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
so I guess, for anybody listening, this might be
what this podcast is about, ifyou want to listen, it might not
be.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, hey, good morning , good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Good morning, we gotta start with the coffee.
Yeah, I bet, you and I usuallymeet around this time About 5am.
I still don't know how you cando it yeah, well, 8am bedtime
(00:52):
helps 8am, see, I'm even I'mbroken.
8pm, so building stack list.
Oh, I'm gonna yawn during thisone you need to cut the line.
No, I'm not gonna leave in theyawns.
(01:14):
This episode says yawns and all.
Yeah, it's funny.
I interviewed for the Zero toUm podcast.
I interviewed Danny, the CEO ofJam, last night.
I have to look up when that was.
(01:35):
It was maybe 2010, 2012,.
But early in the sort ofpodcasting era there was a
(01:59):
podcast called Startup and itliterally was somebody who left
their job and was like I'm goingto start a podcast and he has a
voice recorder and he takes ithome and he's sort of like has
it near his wife.
He's like okay, I'm going tostart a podcast.
(02:19):
And she's like what, what areyou?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
going to do.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Like it was just very early but it was so raw and
authentic and I remember thatsticking with me a lot.
And then he ended up buildingthat podcast, became highly,
(02:42):
highly successful and then hespun it off and basically set up
a podcast media company andthen started other podcasts
under it.
But it's so good to go back andhear that first one.
But that one has always stuckwith me and it did it stuck with
Danny too of just that idea ofjust sort of the super
(03:03):
unpolished, like transparentlook at starting something from
scratch and trying to figure outalong the way what the heck is
this thing?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
What am I doing?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
yeah, so I think that's.
I think that's one.
One view that I'd love to havefor this, for this podcast is
sort of the unpolished behindthe scenes.
Look at taking something thatyou know was an idea and then
(03:42):
starting to build it out, andeven when it becomes a bit of a
formed thing and there are somepeople using it, it's still like
it's still so early and so wehave no idea where this is going
to go.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I don't know what would you want to get out of
recording a podcast about thejourney of doing a startup well,
you know behind the scenes whatyou mentioned, um, how, at one
point you are all excited andokay, yeah, uh, we released
three times a week and it'samazing.
The next week is like I don'tknow, we hit the roadblock.
(04:22):
Uh, we are downsizing, we don'thave that many team members,
then how we manage that, how wekeep up the pace?
Do we keep up the pace?
Do we slow down?
Do we explore some other stuff?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
just around, why we should release six times a week,
why we should push on Fridaytwo times per day.
Two times per day, it should bethe goal totally, why we should
push on Friday two times per day.
Two times per day, totally,totally.
No, you're right, we've gonethrough some of those like the
(04:56):
flexing up and the down.
You know we had, we had more,and then we sort of constricted
down to a bit of a tighter teamand then we kind of flexed back
up again a little bit in certainareas.
But who knows, week to week,you know what it's going to look
like.
But, there's still somethinglike what is your, what do you
(05:20):
see in your mind?
Excuse me, what do you see inyour mind as, like the?
What does it look like?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
like, what does zach list look like three years from
now?
I'm visiting you in new yorkalmost every month, so you know
we are doing great.
Yeah, exactly, uh.
Now I would say you know, we,we are polished, uh, we have
revenue, we have users, tons ofusers.
We are getting better each week.
Still, you know we are stillkeeping the pace, but with a
much higher team, much morepeople around us, much more.
(05:59):
You know how it gets when yougrow a company, but to still
keep that startup mindset andyou know, not let being able to
make revenue to get into ourhead and okay, now we are going
to do something else.
No, this mindset of a startupis really something that needs
to be cherished and this timewhen we spend thinking about,
(06:23):
okay, how we can make it betterfor our users, we should keep
that forever no forever is thekey.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I remember doing a project for a large scale hotel
company and it was atransformation where basically
at the highest levels, they hadsort of asked me and my team to
figure out what the, the futureof staying at this, this chain,
looked like.
(06:52):
And it was funny early in thein the project I remember going
being at the sort ofheadquarters and interviewing so
many executives um in thecompany and everybody talked
about what their division'sgoals were and what their
(07:14):
division's targets were.
But it was all so insular likenot one person sort of mentioned
the guest and what the guest,how the guest would be feeling
or how the guest would beinteracting with the company in
a much better way, or how theguest, how they were sort of
(07:38):
hyper-focused on the guest andhow to make it better.
It was all sort of inside thisbuilding of inside this building
.
I have agreed upon this amountof money and we have put these
goals on a PowerPoint chart andso we're going to go do these
goals which we're all talkingabout internally, but
everybody's so insular and thecompany that nobody was really
(08:02):
focused on on the guest.
And then I had that momentwhere I was also hyper aware of
how Airbnb sort of came along,you know, and totally like
forced their way in and said,hey, here's a totally new thing
that nobody's thinking about isyou can rent some space on a
(08:24):
couch in a person's house, youknow, and, and at that time that
was crazy, right.
That was sort of like.
You know, I know the early, theearly lore of you hear about
people turning down investmentof Airbnb because they're like,
oh, this is so dangerous, peopleare going to get hurt and and
you don't even know who thesepeople are and why would they
(08:45):
want guests and strangers intheir house.
And now I would say, 50% of thetime when I travel, I stay in an
Airbnb and I don't stay athotels.
I stay at hotels way less than Iused to, and I think that it's
so key to keep in mind where oneis, how hard it is sometimes to
(09:07):
create something new thatpeople aren't sort of used to,
and how you have to sort offorce your way into the
zeitgeist of social and of apps,but also how, if you get
complacent and you're justfocused on internal culture,
internal goals, the sort ofmatrix that you can create in a
(09:28):
company where you're justfocused on the corporate
playbook or whatever, that youcompletely lose sight of the end
user and what they need andwhat they want and how that's
shifting and changing all thetime.
And so, yeah, I love thatthought about just forever
(09:49):
trying to keep the end user inmind.
And that means, but that alsomeans that our company has to
stay so fluid that we can't everget attached to how we know
it's going to be or how it is,or that the corporate play or
the the company playbook hasbeen set in stone and we
probably don't want to like messthat up, so we just like keep
(10:11):
going the way that we're goingbecause it's safe yeah, no, I
agree.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I mean, people are always resilient on something
new and they don't want to tryit and you just have to force it
.
You know, at one point, like,okay, this is really awesome,
start using it.
The same, you know when, earlydays in Facebook or Meta, when
they did some huge UI UX updates, everyone was hating, like, oh
my God, where did that button go?
(10:37):
Where was this, where is nowthat?
And then in a couple of days,everyone were okay, it's awesome
, I can use this Totally.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
You know the new thing like forcing something
more, creating something new.
I remember when the iPad cameout and there were all these
memes of like oh, it's just abig iPhone.
And there's like people sort oflike holding up iPads to their
heads, like talking into theiPad, being like, see, it's just
a big iPhone.
You know it's just an excusefor people to spend $1,000 on a
(11:11):
big iPhone, but it's interestingonce you get past that period
of the initial people'sreactions and then it sort of
moves into into everyday use.
You think about now how, how weuse iPads in totally different
ways, whether it's like takingnotes or or watching movies on
(11:34):
the go.
Who would have thought thatbasically like watching movies
and watching TVs?
You would just be.
You would just be at an airportwith headphones on, watching
this extremely flat televisionsurface that you just hold in
your hand.
And kids too.
My son does Duolingo now on hisiPad and he basically
(11:58):
challenges other kids from allover the world and learning
French on his iPad.
And you know, and I always, Ialways think back to those early
periods where it's like we'remaking fun of iPads when they
first come out and then, oncethat settles, people start to
see how, how you actually use it.
And now it's like imagine justgetting rid of all the iPads.
(12:21):
Yeah, you can't do it now.
So I love that.
I love that.
What, um, you know, one of theinteresting things I think that
I'd love to explore is we sortof I've thought about a few
things, but I'd love your.
Your take on this, too is sortof how we do.
By the way, we're recordingthis first episode, but I was
(12:47):
thinking it would be interestingto not only for us to have some
sort of candid conversationsabout building the business, but
(13:08):
also like interviewing our teaminternally, maybe about what
it's like being in a super earlystage company, and then also
maybe find some customers, likesome early customers, who are
willing to come on and kind oftalk about what it's like
finding Stacklist and then andthen using it and and what their
(13:33):
thought process is, and thenmaybe some partners, some like
people that we work with, thatsort of help of help keep things
moving and keep the enginegoing.
I don't know, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, I think from those people we would get some
juicy stuff.
To be honest, I think peopleusually have a lot of things to
say and the way they use andwhat would they like to see and
how would they like to improvethe product, but they don't
often get the chance to speak up, so I think, it would be really
interesting to see how actuallypeople are using and what are
(14:07):
they using the most, you know,yeah, is it sharing?
Is it creating?
Is it social aspect?
What would they like to seethat we have more of those?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, I think our team too.
I'd be really interesting tohear, especially, you know, from
duchan and lazar and others whohave, who've been with us for a
couple of months and sort ofnot just I mean obviously, what
we're building and the and thelike specific areas that they're
focused on what they'rebuilding, but also just what
(14:38):
they think day to day.
Like is it kind of crazyworking for the early six months
startup with no funding?
You know, it's like I don'tknow just those sort of or what
someone working on the team,what their aspirations would be
if we, you know funding and andwe and we grow into a bigger
(15:03):
team and you know and thingschange a bit, I don't know what
they would want from thatjourney yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I mean, working in a startup is always thrilling, at
least for me.
Uh, the pace is awesome.
You know, you don't have tohave five to ten approvals.
Okay, you can do that, you can,you just do it and that's it
you literally don't have to haveany approvals.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I found something on production on the live site the
other day and I had no idea thatthat was going out.
I was like I I, all of a suddenI sent a screenshot to Martina.
I'm like what is this?
I just found this on the site.
Yes, I love that.
I love that part of it too.
I don't know, and I think maybeit could be good every now and
(15:56):
then for you and I just torecord candid thoughts, I don't
know just when we're about todiscuss where things should go.
You know what I mean Like andrecording that in those moments
where we're trying to figurethings out, Because hopefully
that could be useful to someoneelse who's thinking about
(16:18):
starting something up.
And I've started doing a lotmore recording myself.
So I bought the DJI Osmo 3, andit's one of the best.
I mean, obviously, you can turnyour iPhone at yourself and
just start recording, butthere's something about this
little mini handheld selfiestick that it feels like a
(16:43):
little bit of a what was on,like road rules and the real
world, like the confessionalbooths, you know where you sort
of go in and you're like I thinkSally is just trying to
stab me in the back or whateverand everybody's just being real
with this like confessionalbooth, but like there's
something about the setup ofthis thing and I leave an event
(17:06):
or I'm I wake up in the morningand I'm, I'm having.
I've never had, I've never haddoubts about Stacklist.
But you do have these sort oflike confusing gray periods
where you're sort of like Idon't know what the next step is
, or like should I changesomething, or should I kind of
(17:28):
bend a little bit for thisinvestment money or whatever,
and you're sort of like goingthrough all these heads is in
between events.
I was doing this in SanFrancisco is like turning that
thing on myself while I'mwalking and just talking, for a
bit and being like I don't know,and so I feel like we could do
(17:49):
that here, but together and justin terms of asking those
questions and trying to figureout what the heck, where the
heck this thing's going thatdoes great, as came with a lot
of inputs from a lot of peopleyeah everybody has opinion and
sometimes it gets to our head.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So it's, it's normal.
It's hard to not take itpersonally, especially when it's
something that you're buildingand it's your idea.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So yeah, it's tricky.
It's a fine balance betweentaking advice from people who've
been down similar roads, youknow, and then also not wavering
from whatever your your first,like you know vision of
something was, and then, as itstarts getting uncovered, there
(18:41):
are instances where youdefinitely have to adapt and
there are other instances whereit's like you just stay the
course and hold your breath andhope that was, that's, like
that's the right, that's theright way to go.
So I don't know, I think that's, I think that's it.
I think more than I think, morethan sort of introducing how
(19:04):
all this is definitely going togo on the podcast.
I think it's more sort of likeintroducing how it might go on
the podcast.
So yeah, I guess for anybodylistening, this might be what
this podcast is about.
If you want to listen.
It might not be so if you'reinterested in what we were just
(19:27):
talking about, maybe tune in.
Otherwise, you might also wantto tune in, I don't know.
Cool, well, yeah, I'm excited.
I think there's a lot ofdifferent topics and a lot of
different.
A lot of different topics and alot of different areas to hit,
and I'm excited to hear also thefirst episode first real
(19:49):
episode, because this is a fakeintro episode the first real
episode with you interviewingDenzel on on what it's like to
be a woman in tech, inleadership, because there are
definitely historical roots init being a male-dominated
(20:15):
industry and so reallyinteresting to hear, especially
as the CTO of Stacklist,interviewing the CEO of an AI
startup that's been trying thisfor a couple of years, and I'm
really interested to hear youknow what you guys talk about.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, I already have prepared some juicy questions.
Can't wait to hear the answers.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Nice, nice, totally nice, nice, totally, um, yeah,
and then I was thinking one ofthe other ones that we could do
is I'm really interested to hearwhat um, what um, juan has to
say from.
So juan just joined.
He's only really been with usfor a week and a half, but as a
ui ux designer who's helpingredesign the whole platform and,
(21:01):
and it's really interestingcoming, he was coming off of a
full-time position, as I, as Iunderstand it, and sort of
coming into the startup worldwhere where, as he jumps in and
joins, we're all like, hey, Ineed a button, I need a menu, I
need a thing, you know.
And it's like wait, wait, wait,wait, hold on, hold on, hold on
(21:23):
.
We got to, we got to get some,we got to get some structure
here.
I got to also figure out whatthe heck where all the Figma
boards are.
So I think interesting to sortof learn right in those, in
those moments, from team memberswho, who still have not sort of
been in the stackless world fortoo long, and what early, fresh
(21:45):
thoughts are of not only theplatform and what we're building
, but also just from the outside, in kind of how we seem could
be interesting well with ourentire setup, like also with
some suggestions, if we can dosomething better to ease the
person in much smoother and tohave him or her start, you know,
(22:09):
seamless.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That's the point.
Okay, here it is, here iseverything, and let me know what
you need.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's how I envision it.
I think it's hard, though,because I think that that
sometimes, like in the placethat we're at, to have someone
come on seamlessly, also meansthat we need to.
We need to sort of spend timesetting up all the processes and
(22:39):
have all the boards clean andhave sort of a bit of
instruction manual and have anonboarding you know what I mean
which also, at times, can feellike those are all the things
that we have to get set like anestablished company, Because I
know I've been, I go intocompanies, I've been onboarded
into companies before where theyhave it all set right and
(23:01):
there's like there's an HRperson who brings you in and
they're like I'm setting up anumber of meetings and you're
going to meet all thesedifferent people, and we have
this notion workspace and youcan take a couple of days and
you can sort of like readthrough it and read of all of
our company processes and youknow and all those sorts of
things.
And what's interesting is that,from a startup perspective, we
(23:24):
you know and all those sort ofthings.
And what's interesting is that,from a startup perspective, we
you know, burn and overhead is avery specific, real thing every
week, and so the more we've gotpeople sort of working
sometimes on processes anddocumentation and those sort of
things.
Are also times that we're notspending either making the
product better or getting aclient, and so there are times
(23:48):
where we have to find people whoare sort of okay jumping in and
rummaging through our trashpile of Figma boards and saying,
like I can figure it out, likeno big deal, or whatever, and
(24:08):
that's interesting.
I think it's an interestingmoment also where you know, yeah
, we try and make it as easy aspossible, but also you're kind
of vetting people's personalitytoo in those processes.
Like, do they come in and sortof need everything to be a
certain way, or do they come inand they're like, look, I got it
(24:30):
.
Just let me, let me dig throughall this and what I will do is
come up and out with anorganized process, which is what
one did, by the way.
It's like, basically, we've gotthese.
We totally started a newproject away from all of our
other boards and started thisvery clean, like here's the
colors, here's the fonts, here'sthe like, and started from
(24:52):
scratch, which is amazing.
So I don't know, It'll bereally interesting to hear from
somebody who has come into usreally fresh.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
No, definitely the point in startup is that you try
to do that, you try to have itorganized, you try to have it at
least to somewhat documentationand onboarding and everything.
But then it's a startup and youget pulled away on the
different stuff and like, okay,I don't have time for this
anymore, let's go do somethingelse.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, exactly, cool, well I'm excited.
Yeah, I'm excited and we shouldfigure out how to and you got to
keep me honest with this tooLike I think what would be
really interesting is that youand I do these from time to time
away from interviewing otherpeople, but we just do these
(25:45):
sort of maybe this is our realworld road rules, confessional
episodes.
But we should just do thesereally impromptu, like we should
find times where you and I bothare like no, no, no, wait, hold
on, let's don't do it in zoom,let's do it in riverside, like
let's hop in and just startrecording and then and just talk
(26:07):
and, I don't know, maybe forgetsometimes that we're even like
recording anything and justdigging into the guts of of what
we're trying to build At least,if nothing else, it'll be super
interesting for us to listen toyears from now.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
To my future self.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
To my future self.
Yeah, this is what it was likewhen we were trying to figure
things out.
So fun, alright.
Well, a very long, unstructuredintro to a podcast.
This has no structure and we'renot sure what it's going to be
listener, so come along for theride.
(26:52):
Why is my Siri talking to me?
It's on.
Well, yeah, she's like it's 528.
What are you doing, all right?
Well, let's see where.
Well, yeah, she's like it's 528.
What are you doing, all right?
Well, let's see where thisthing goes.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, definitely Can't wait to see.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
All right, that's it.
I'm going to do the proverbialmic drop.
See you on the next episode.
I think it could be good every now and then for you
and I just to record like candidthoughts.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Everybody has opinion and sometimes it gets to our
heads.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
so I guess, for anybody listening, this might be
what this podcast is about, ifyou want to listen, it might not
be.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, hey, good morning , good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Good morning, we gotta start with the coffee.
Yeah, I bet, you and I usuallymeet around this time About 5am.
I still don't know how you cando it yeah, well, 8am bedtime
(00:52):
helps 8am, see, I'm even I'mbroken.
8pm, so building stack list.
Oh, I'm gonna yawn during thisone you need to cut the line.
No, I'm not gonna leave in theyawns.
(01:14):
This episode says yawns and all.
Yeah, it's funny.
I interviewed for the Zero toUm podcast.
I interviewed Danny, the CEO ofJam, last night.
I have to look up when that was.
(01:35):
It was maybe 2010, 2012,.
But early in the sort ofpodcasting era there was a
(01:59):
podcast called Startup and itliterally was somebody who left
their job and was like I'm goingto start a podcast and he has a
voice recorder and he takes ithome and he's sort of like has
it near his wife.
He's like okay, I'm going tostart a podcast.
(02:19):
And she's like what, what areyou?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
going to do.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Like it was just very early but it was so raw and
authentic and I remember thatsticking with me a lot.
And then he ended up buildingthat podcast, became highly,
(02:42):
highly successful and then hespun it off and basically set up
a podcast media company andthen started other podcasts
under it.
But it's so good to go back andhear that first one.
But that one has always stuckwith me and it did it stuck with
Danny too of just that idea ofjust sort of the super
(03:03):
unpolished, like transparentlook at starting something from
scratch and trying to figure outalong the way what the heck is
this thing?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
What am I doing?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
yeah, so I think that's.
I think that's one.
One view that I'd love to havefor this, for this podcast is
sort of the unpolished behindthe scenes.
Look at taking something thatyou know was an idea and then
(03:42):
starting to build it out, andeven when it becomes a bit of a
formed thing and there are somepeople using it, it's still like
it's still so early and so wehave no idea where this is going
to go.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I don't know what would you want to get out of
recording a podcast about thejourney of doing a startup well,
you know behind the scenes whatyou mentioned, um, how, at one
point you are all excited andokay, yeah, uh, we released
three times a week and it'samazing.
The next week is like I don'tknow, we hit the roadblock.
(04:22):
Uh, we are downsizing, we don'thave that many team members,
then how we manage that, how wekeep up the pace?
Do we keep up the pace?
Do we slow down?
Do we explore some other stuff?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
just around, why we should release six times a week,
why we should push on Fridaytwo times per day.
Two times per day, it should bethe goal totally, why we should
push on Friday two times per day.
Two times per day, totally,totally.
No, you're right, we've gonethrough some of those like the
(04:56):
flexing up and the down.
You know we had, we had more,and then we sort of constricted
down to a bit of a tighter teamand then we kind of flexed back
up again a little bit in certainareas.
But who knows, week to week,you know what it's going to look
like.
But, there's still somethinglike what is your, what do you
(05:20):
see in your mind?
Excuse me, what do you see inyour mind as, like the?
What does it look like?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
like, what does zach list look like three years from
now?
I'm visiting you in new yorkalmost every month, so you know
we are doing great.
Yeah, exactly, uh.
Now I would say you know, we,we are polished, uh, we have
revenue, we have users, tons ofusers.
We are getting better each week.
Still, you know we are stillkeeping the pace, but with a
much higher team, much morepeople around us, much more.
(05:59):
You know how it gets when yougrow a company, but to still
keep that startup mindset andyou know, not let being able to
make revenue to get into ourhead and okay, now we are going
to do something else.
No, this mindset of a startupis really something that needs
to be cherished and this timewhen we spend thinking about,
(06:23):
okay, how we can make it betterfor our users, we should keep
that forever no forever is thekey.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I remember doing a project for a large scale hotel
company and it was atransformation where basically
at the highest levels, they hadsort of asked me and my team to
figure out what the, the futureof staying at this, this chain,
looked like.
(06:52):
And it was funny early in thein the project I remember going
being at the sort ofheadquarters and interviewing so
many executives um in thecompany and everybody talked
about what their division'sgoals were and what their
(07:14):
division's targets were.
But it was all so insular likenot one person sort of mentioned
the guest and what the guest,how the guest would be feeling
or how the guest would beinteracting with the company in
a much better way, or how theguest, how they were sort of
(07:38):
hyper-focused on the guest andhow to make it better.
It was all sort of inside thisbuilding of inside this building
.
I have agreed upon this amountof money and we have put these
goals on a PowerPoint chart andso we're going to go do these
goals which we're all talkingabout internally, but
everybody's so insular and thecompany that nobody was really
(08:02):
focused on on the guest.
And then I had that momentwhere I was also hyper aware of
how Airbnb sort of came along,you know, and totally like
forced their way in and said,hey, here's a totally new thing
that nobody's thinking about isyou can rent some space on a
(08:24):
couch in a person's house, youknow, and, and at that time that
was crazy, right.
That was sort of like.
You know, I know the early, theearly lore of you hear about
people turning down investmentof Airbnb because they're like,
oh, this is so dangerous, peopleare going to get hurt and and
you don't even know who thesepeople are and why would they
(08:45):
want guests and strangers intheir house.
And now I would say, 50% of thetime when I travel, I stay in an
Airbnb and I don't stay athotels.
I stay at hotels way less than Iused to, and I think that it's
so key to keep in mind where oneis, how hard it is sometimes to
(09:07):
create something new thatpeople aren't sort of used to,
and how you have to sort offorce your way into the
zeitgeist of social and of apps,but also how, if you get
complacent and you're justfocused on internal culture,
internal goals, the sort ofmatrix that you can create in a
(09:28):
company where you're justfocused on the corporate
playbook or whatever, that youcompletely lose sight of the end
user and what they need andwhat they want and how that's
shifting and changing all thetime.
And so, yeah, I love thatthought about just forever
(09:49):
trying to keep the end user inmind.
And that means, but that alsomeans that our company has to
stay so fluid that we can't everget attached to how we know
it's going to be or how it is,or that the corporate play or
the the company playbook hasbeen set in stone and we
probably don't want to like messthat up, so we just like keep
(10:11):
going the way that we're goingbecause it's safe yeah, no, I
agree.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I mean, people are always resilient on something
new and they don't want to tryit and you just have to force it
.
You know, at one point, like,okay, this is really awesome,
start using it.
The same, you know when, earlydays in Facebook or Meta, when
they did some huge UI UX updates, everyone was hating, like, oh
my God, where did that button go?
(10:37):
Where was this, where is nowthat?
And then in a couple of days,everyone were okay, it's awesome
, I can use this Totally.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
You know the new thing like forcing something
more, creating something new.
I remember when the iPad cameout and there were all these
memes of like oh, it's just abig iPhone.
And there's like people sort oflike holding up iPads to their
heads, like talking into theiPad, being like, see, it's just
a big iPhone.
You know it's just an excusefor people to spend $1,000 on a
(11:11):
big iPhone, but it's interestingonce you get past that period
of the initial people'sreactions and then it sort of
moves into into everyday use.
You think about now how, how weuse iPads in totally different
ways, whether it's like takingnotes or or watching movies on
(11:34):
the go.
Who would have thought thatbasically like watching movies
and watching TVs?
You would just be.
You would just be at an airportwith headphones on, watching
this extremely flat televisionsurface that you just hold in
your hand.
And kids too.
My son does Duolingo now on hisiPad and he basically
(11:58):
challenges other kids from allover the world and learning
French on his iPad.
And you know, and I always, Ialways think back to those early
periods where it's like we'remaking fun of iPads when they
first come out and then, oncethat settles, people start to
see how, how you actually use it.
And now it's like imagine justgetting rid of all the iPads.
(12:21):
Yeah, you can't do it now.
So I love that.
I love that.
What, um, you know, one of theinteresting things I think that
I'd love to explore is we sortof I've thought about a few
things, but I'd love your.
Your take on this, too is sortof how we do.
By the way, we're recordingthis first episode, but I was
(12:47):
thinking it would be interestingto not only for us to have some
sort of candid conversationsabout building the business, but
(13:08):
also like interviewing our teaminternally, maybe about what
it's like being in a super earlystage company, and then also
maybe find some customers, likesome early customers, who are
willing to come on and kind oftalk about what it's like
finding Stacklist and then andthen using it and and what their
(13:33):
thought process is, and thenmaybe some partners, some like
people that we work with, thatsort of help of help keep things
moving and keep the enginegoing.
I don't know, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, I think from those people we would get some
juicy stuff.
To be honest, I think peopleusually have a lot of things to
say and the way they use andwhat would they like to see and
how would they like to improvethe product, but they don't
often get the chance to speak up, so I think, it would be really
interesting to see how actuallypeople are using and what are
(14:07):
they using the most, you know,yeah, is it sharing?
Is it creating?
Is it social aspect?
What would they like to seethat we have more of those?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, I think our team too.
I'd be really interesting tohear, especially, you know, from
duchan and lazar and others whohave, who've been with us for a
couple of months and sort ofnot just I mean obviously, what
we're building and the and thelike specific areas that they're
focused on what they'rebuilding, but also just what
(14:38):
they think day to day.
Like is it kind of crazyworking for the early six months
startup with no funding?
You know, it's like I don'tknow just those sort of or what
someone working on the team,what their aspirations would be
if we, you know funding and andwe and we grow into a bigger
(15:03):
team and you know and thingschange a bit, I don't know what
they would want from thatjourney yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I mean, working in a startup is always thrilling, at
least for me.
Uh, the pace is awesome.
You know, you don't have tohave five to ten approvals.
Okay, you can do that, you can,you just do it and that's it
you literally don't have to haveany approvals.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I found something on production on the live site the
other day and I had no idea thatthat was going out.
I was like I I, all of a suddenI sent a screenshot to Martina.
I'm like what is this?
I just found this on the site.
Yes, I love that.
I love that part of it too.
I don't know, and I think maybeit could be good every now and
(15:56):
then for you and I just torecord candid thoughts, I don't
know just when we're about todiscuss where things should go.
You know what I mean Like andrecording that in those moments
where we're trying to figurethings out, Because hopefully
that could be useful to someoneelse who's thinking about
(16:18):
starting something up.
And I've started doing a lotmore recording myself.
So I bought the DJI Osmo 3, andit's one of the best.
I mean, obviously, you can turnyour iPhone at yourself and
just start recording, butthere's something about this
little mini handheld selfiestick that it feels like a
(16:43):
little bit of a what was on,like road rules and the real
world, like the confessionalbooths, you know where you sort
of go in and you're like I thinkSally is just trying to
stab me in the back or whateverand everybody's just being real
with this like confessionalbooth, but like there's
something about the setup ofthis thing and I leave an event
(17:06):
or I'm I wake up in the morningand I'm, I'm having.
I've never had, I've never haddoubts about Stacklist.
But you do have these sort oflike confusing gray periods
where you're sort of like Idon't know what the next step is
, or like should I changesomething, or should I kind of
(17:28):
bend a little bit for thisinvestment money or whatever,
and you're sort of like goingthrough all these heads is in
between events.
I was doing this in SanFrancisco is like turning that
thing on myself while I'mwalking and just talking, for a
bit and being like I don't know,and so I feel like we could do
(17:49):
that here, but together and justin terms of asking those
questions and trying to figureout what the heck, where the
heck this thing's going thatdoes great, as came with a lot
of inputs from a lot of peopleyeah everybody has opinion and
sometimes it gets to our head.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So it's, it's normal.
It's hard to not take itpersonally, especially when it's
something that you're buildingand it's your idea.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So yeah, it's tricky.
It's a fine balance betweentaking advice from people who've
been down similar roads, youknow, and then also not wavering
from whatever your your first,like you know vision of
something was, and then, as itstarts getting uncovered, there
(18:41):
are instances where youdefinitely have to adapt and
there are other instances whereit's like you just stay the
course and hold your breath andhope that was, that's, like
that's the right, that's theright way to go.
So I don't know, I think that's, I think that's it.
I think more than I think, morethan sort of introducing how
(19:04):
all this is definitely going togo on the podcast.
I think it's more sort of likeintroducing how it might go on
the podcast.
So yeah, I guess for anybodylistening, this might be what
this podcast is about.
If you want to listen.
It might not be so if you'reinterested in what we were just
(19:27):
talking about, maybe tune in.
Otherwise, you might also wantto tune in, I don't know.
Cool, well, yeah, I'm excited.
I think there's a lot ofdifferent topics and a lot of
different.
A lot of different topics and alot of different areas to hit,
and I'm excited to hear also thefirst episode first real
(19:49):
episode, because this is a fakeintro episode the first real
episode with you interviewingDenzel on on what it's like to
be a woman in tech, inleadership, because there are
definitely historical roots init being a male-dominated
(20:15):
industry and so reallyinteresting to hear, especially
as the CTO of Stacklist,interviewing the CEO of an AI
startup that's been trying thisfor a couple of years, and I'm
really interested to hear youknow what you guys talk about.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, I already have prepared some juicy questions.
Can't wait to hear the answers.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Nice, nice, totally nice, nice, totally, um, yeah,
and then I was thinking one ofthe other ones that we could do
is I'm really interested to hearwhat um, what um, juan has to
say from.
So juan just joined.
He's only really been with usfor a week and a half, but as a
ui ux designer who's helpingredesign the whole platform and,
(21:01):
and it's really interestingcoming, he was coming off of a
full-time position, as I, as Iunderstand it, and sort of
coming into the startup worldwhere where, as he jumps in and
joins, we're all like, hey, Ineed a button, I need a menu, I
need a thing, you know.
And it's like wait, wait, wait,wait, hold on, hold on, hold on
(21:23):
.
We got to, we got to get some,we got to get some structure
here.
I got to also figure out whatthe heck where all the Figma
boards are.
So I think interesting to sortof learn right in those, in
those moments, from team memberswho, who still have not sort of
been in the stackless world fortoo long, and what early, fresh
(21:45):
thoughts are of not only theplatform and what we're building
, but also just from the outside, in kind of how we seem could
be interesting well with ourentire setup, like also with
some suggestions, if we can dosomething better to ease the
person in much smoother and tohave him or her start, you know,
(22:09):
seamless.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That's the point.
Okay, here it is, here iseverything, and let me know what
you need.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's how I envision it.
I think it's hard, though,because I think that that
sometimes, like in the placethat we're at, to have someone
come on seamlessly, also meansthat we need to.
We need to sort of spend timesetting up all the processes and
(22:39):
have all the boards clean andhave sort of a bit of
instruction manual and have anonboarding you know what I mean
which also, at times, can feellike those are all the things
that we have to get set like anestablished company, Because I
know I've been, I go intocompanies, I've been onboarded
into companies before where theyhave it all set right and
(23:01):
there's like there's an HRperson who brings you in and
they're like I'm setting up anumber of meetings and you're
going to meet all thesedifferent people, and we have
this notion workspace and youcan take a couple of days and
you can sort of like readthrough it and read of all of
our company processes and youknow and all those sorts of
things.
And what's interesting is that,from a startup perspective, we
(23:24):
you know and all those sort ofthings.
And what's interesting is that,from a startup perspective, we
you know, burn and overhead is avery specific, real thing every
week, and so the more we've gotpeople sort of working
sometimes on processes anddocumentation and those sort of
things.
Are also times that we're notspending either making the
product better or getting aclient, and so there are times
(23:48):
where we have to find people whoare sort of okay jumping in and
rummaging through our trashpile of Figma boards and saying,
like I can figure it out, likeno big deal, or whatever, and
(24:08):
that's interesting.
I think it's an interestingmoment also where you know, yeah
, we try and make it as easy aspossible, but also you're kind
of vetting people's personalitytoo in those processes.
Like, do they come in and sortof need everything to be a
certain way, or do they come inand they're like, look, I got it
(24:30):
.
Just let me, let me dig throughall this and what I will do is
come up and out with anorganized process, which is what
one did, by the way.
It's like, basically, we've gotthese.
We totally started a newproject away from all of our
other boards and started thisvery clean, like here's the
colors, here's the fonts, here'sthe like, and started from
(24:52):
scratch, which is amazing.
So I don't know, It'll bereally interesting to hear from
somebody who has come into usreally fresh.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
No, definitely the point in startup is that you try
to do that, you try to have itorganized, you try to have it at
least to somewhat documentationand onboarding and everything.
But then it's a startup and youget pulled away on the
different stuff and like, okay,I don't have time for this
anymore, let's go do somethingelse.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, exactly, cool, well I'm excited.
Yeah, I'm excited and we shouldfigure out how to and you got to
keep me honest with this tooLike I think what would be
really interesting is that youand I do these from time to time
away from interviewing otherpeople, but we just do these
(25:45):
sort of maybe this is our realworld road rules, confessional
episodes.
But we should just do thesereally impromptu, like we should
find times where you and I bothare like no, no, no, wait, hold
on, let's don't do it in zoom,let's do it in riverside, like
let's hop in and just startrecording and then and just talk
(26:07):
and, I don't know, maybe forgetsometimes that we're even like
recording anything and justdigging into the guts of of what
we're trying to build At least,if nothing else, it'll be super
interesting for us to listen toyears from now.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
To my future self.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
To my future self.
Yeah, this is what it was likewhen we were trying to figure
things out.
So fun, alright.
Well, a very long, unstructuredintro to a podcast.
This has no structure and we'renot sure what it's going to be
listener, so come along for theride.
(26:52):
Why is my Siri talking to me?
It's on.
Well, yeah, she's like it's 528.
What are you doing, all right?
Well, let's see where.
Well, yeah, she's like it's 528.
What are you doing, all right?
Well, let's see where thisthing goes.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, definitely Can't wait to see.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
All right, that's it.
I'm going to do the proverbialmic drop.
See you on the next episode.
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