March 13, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of "Building Stacklist," hosts Kyle and Martina are joined by Lazar Ristic as they kick off the new year with reflections, predictions, and plans for the future of Stacklist.
Dive into the journey of building a startup, where speed, innovation, and user experience are at the forefront. Lazar shares his transition from graphic design to leading mobile development with a focus on optimizing development speed using Flutter.
The team discusses goals for 2025, including growing their user base to 10,000 Members and improving ease of use and confidence in their product.
Listen in as they share insights on team dynamics, agile development, and maintaining a startup mindset while aiming for growth and excellence.
Whether you're a startup enthusiast or building your own business, this episode offers valuable lessons on the entrepreneurial path.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Obviously, Martina is on the web and she's too fast,
so you need to catch up withMartina.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
To become one of those things where we're like,
oh, I got to mute that sign-upchannel.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
What do you sound like to hit that reach 10K this
year?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Watch out because we're coming.
We're coming for you.
Happy 2025.
Martina and Lazar are going tobe joining me shortly and we're
going to be kicking off this newyear with a new episode.
Cheers, hello, sir, hello howare you Great?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
How are you doing?
Happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year, I'm stillwaking up.
Yeah, happy New Year, happy.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
New Year.
I'm still waking up.
Yeah, is it 5 am at your place,or?
You're six hours behind.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's crazyJanuary 2nd and you're up at 5
am.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Let's go Hello, hey, hello,hello, welcome to 2025.
(01:21):
Indeed.
Well, technically, both of youshould invite me with just a
little, maybe, reflection backand then also what the heck is
going to happen this yearpredictions.
While I have sips of coffeeevery now and then, I want to,
like Lazar, we haven't had timeto to to sort of meet you.
(01:46):
Uh, or the, or the audiencehasn't had a chance to kind of
meet you yet.
So, uh, I thought what I'd liketo do is just get started by
maybe giving a little bit ofyour background and then, um,
and then follow it up with, likeI don't know kind of what you
thought when you first joined usand when you first, like, heard
about Stacklist and came in andstarted kind of looking at
(02:12):
everything, what your initialimpressions were.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, I'll start way back when I started as a graphic
designer, I guess, which waslike my first when I was still
studying, my first gigs andstuff.
I was just trying to make somemoney on the side by just doing
anything.
So I was into MBA and then Ijoined some editorial staff
(02:37):
which needed a graphic designer.
So I started doing graphicdesign and after that, yeah, I
just went into coding with webdeveloping and into mobile apps.
So I've been doing this forlike five, six years, doing
mobile development for like fouryears.
So, yeah, pretty much I knewthat I wanted to do mobile apps.
(02:59):
So once I learned about Flutter, I was like this is the new
cool thing.
And then I was like, yeah, Ineed to jump on this and learn
it.
It was fun because you coulddevelop Android and iOS at the
same time, which was fun.
So, yeah, that's, I guess, myshort background.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
What did you design in originally and what kind of
stuff did you work on when youwere?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
designing.
What did you design inoriginally and what kind of
stuff did you work on when youwere designing?
I was doing like promo for NBAgames because we had like a page
and, as I said, editorial stuffwhich was called NBA Serbia.
So we were mostly followingguys from Serbia that were
playing in the NBA.
So all like social media promostuff, like promoting games when
are they playing their statsand stuff like that.
(03:46):
So that's mostly what I wasdoing in some video editing as
well.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
So yeah, Lina Kovacevic, did your tech career
started off when you figure outyou won't be next to Nikola
Jokic, or?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
basically yeah.
Yeah, I mean I was doing a lotof stats back then for Nikola.
He was not as famous as he isnow, but yeah, we basically
started off at the same time, Iwould say.
But he is now obviously muchmore famous.
But yeah, thanks to Nikola, Istarted off my career.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I had what to do in the editorial stuff, so yeah,
what made you make the pivotfrom designing, designing to to
coding?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
well, I obviously uh knew that I wanted to do coding
from the start, because I was atmy computer basically, uh, 24 7
.
So I had an idea that I wouldlike uh do coding, be a
developer at some point, uh, butI had, as martina mentioned,
some dreams that I would be abasketball player.
Uh, so, but I had, as Martinamentioned, some dreams that I
(04:45):
would be a basketball player.
So once that died, then I waslike, okay, now I need to go to
university and stuff, so whatwill I do?
I'm good at maths, okay, let'sthen just do coding.
And I'm at the computer all thetime, so let's do coding.
So it was kind of natural.
And, uh, I never looked back.
It's amazing.
So yeah, nice, um.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, and both of you are, uh, are well seasoned
basketball players.
I am not, so if we were to playhorse, maybe we could play.
Maybe if we were to play uh,then I know, uh, I'm gonna get
schooled, but uh, at some pointI still wanna uh.
Like you know, the three of ushave to have to get on a court
(05:29):
just because I've heard of allof the um trash all of the
accolades from both.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Oh yeah, exactly, and trash talk yeah yeah, I mean
trash talk is the best, butyou'll see on the court it was
better.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, when did you like what did you think about
Stackless when you first joined?
Like what were your first sortof like really initial thoughts
when you kind of heard about itand then when you kind of jumped
in and started looking at theinitial code base and things
like that and started looking atat the initial code base and
things like that, what were yourkind of initial thoughts of the
(06:10):
, the overall idea and and umand kind of the initial
implementation when you jumpedin oh well.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Well, the first uh time I heard about stacklist, it
was like or how did nobody cameup with it before?
Because it was so cool?
I was like, yeah, this seemspretty uh useful and intuitive
and to use and like, how doesn'tit exist already?
So, uh, yeah, I was amazed bythe idea.
(06:38):
I really liked it and that'slike the biggest part why I
decided to join and to give it atry, because I felt like I
would also use it and believe inthe project.
When you work on something thatyou also believe in, it's much
easier to work.
So, yeah, I really liked it.
(06:59):
And when I jumped into theinitial code base and the
project itself and the team andeverything, I would say that the
team is like Stacklist is thebest team I've worked on because
everybody is so proactive,everybody, the communication is
amazing, everybody is responsive, so everything goes fast, which
(07:22):
is awesome, especially whenyou're a startup, I guess, and
you need to get things done fast.
So that's that's I mean, useful.
So, yeah, uh, everything waspositive, which is like crazy,
maybe, to say when you joinfirst, first time but no
negatives as of now and I'vebeen here for like what?
Five months.
(07:43):
This is so no negative feedback.
So that's amazing Nice.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Cool.
What about kind of I can'tremember when, what was the
initial?
We had had some initial codebase, originally, right when you
joined, and I think we've hadlike one or two people's kind of
.
Yeah, we had had, we had hadone or two people sort of, you
know, start to to build thingsout, um.
(08:12):
But then, um, you've reallytaken it and kind of made it
your own and and kind ofrefactored everything.
Um, what's the?
What was the process like whenyou sort of first jumped in and
looked at everything and sawwhere it was?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, well, when I first jumped in, the first
impression was that the iOS appwas way ahead of Android app and
the project was using Flutter,which was amazing.
And I would say the purpose ofFlutter is exactly that cross
platform developing, sodeveloping at the same time at
(08:48):
the same speed.
So the first thing was to justget Android up to speed with the
iOS and then catch up to web,because obviously Martina is on
the web and she's too fast, soyou need to catch up with
Martina.
So that were the initialthoughts just to get both mobile
platforms at the same level andthen catch up to web.
(09:12):
But, yeah, I would sayrefactoring was slow, as
refactoring is, but sometimes Imean you need to go slow to go
fast, which is what we're doingnow.
So that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And you previously worked in in a bigger company,
right yeah yeah, and what wouldyou say?
Is the the most like?
How would I put it?
What's the biggest differencebetween the two environments
like the big cultural wise andthe big company, and the
procedure that may be there thatwe don't have, versus here?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Well, I would say speed.
First of all because in biggercompanies you need to get
approval from approval, from anapproval, and then, once you get
five approvals, then you canpush something In startups.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It's much faster, so you just you have it and then
tell everyone what shipped.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, just like see what what happens on prod, so
but yeah, it's much faster instartup, I would say.
And, as I mentioned,communication, obviously
communication is a bigdifference.
Also, I think here are thingsmuch more dynamic is a big
difference.
Also, I think here are thingsmuch more dynamic and sometimes
that they could be stressful,but I think that's also good
(10:30):
because it makes you focus more.
But, yeah, I would say,communication and speed is like
the main difference between,like, big companies and startups
.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
How do you like our YOLO Friday pushes?
You know, that's stressful,that's stressful.
I mean, you're the only one.
If something goes terrible, youneed to be present to fix it.
It can ruin your weekend.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
You don't have the weekend I mean.
So if we wanted to likeintroduce, martina discussed
introducing YOLO weekends aswell.
We've pushed the brakes for now.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
so that's it just very late post every day on the
weekend post dinner yeah,exactly push and then, like, go
to bed and sleep soundly.
I love it.
Um, that's great.
What about like what, what?
(11:27):
What have you felt like what?
What are some of the thingsthat we've done that you feel
like are that we should keep?
I mean, even even as we growinto a team of five or ten or
twenty, you know above, likewhat do you think are the, the
like three things that we shouldsort of keep the same as much
as possible?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
That's a hard question.
Honestly.
I would say, if we can, weshould keep the speed, because I
think that's like our thing.
Like as for now it's like atleast pushed one time a week so
the users have new experiencesevery week is fun, so I would
say that.
But obviously it's hard whenyou add more people so you then
(12:11):
maybe have code reviews andstuff which takes much more time
.
Also you have like more QA.
So we'll see.
But I would say speed is, if wecan keep it, then that would be
awesome.
Definitely always talking aboutthe speed, sorry, but I'm just
so amazed by it because it'sreally amazing the speed we're
(12:33):
doing it.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
so, for the people watching, the people listening,
um, if you don't know, um, Ithink we actually have a
terminator emoji, um, in slackthat is specific to use mid
journey and combine what is sortlike Lazar's face or sort of
like Lazar's face plus aTerminator, because Lazar just
(12:58):
is a machine.
And so we've even had we had avisual design team member that
said Lazar was too fast, um anduh, and usually the idea is like
we're like hey, we have someideas about what should be done
and we put those in Slack, andthen, if you give it like an
(13:19):
hour or so, you see this buildcome through like wait, hold on.
We just talked about this stuffand the build is already ready.
So, um, that's, this is, thisis lazar's mo is.
Um, if you think you need toestimate something out, um, you
know lazar is probably gonnahave it ready in the short term,
(13:40):
which is amazing.
So, martini, you were gonna,you were going to say something.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
You stole my thought basically Sorry.
No, no.
But I was going to ask.
We downsized a bit this yearand I was just going to ask how
did you keep your morale highand keep the pace, kept the pace
, and how was the process foryou in that time?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
uh.
Well, as I said, that sort ofties it to the beginning when I
came to the project and thespeed thing as well.
I mean, my speed thing is whenyou just believe in the project
and you enjoy working on it.
Uh, then you can just uh whileyou enjoy working.
It's just going fast, which isawesome.
And yeah, the morale never wentdown, honestly, even if when we
(14:31):
downscaled because still I waslike, yeah, this is awesome, the
app is awesome, I believe thatit will succeed.
So, yeah, I mean it neverreally impacted me that we
downsized the team, so yeah,cool?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
and in this last five , six month, what was the most
stressful event for you?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
the most stressful, um, not sure.
I think product product huntwas the one, because it went
live and it's like we testedeverything.
But you know how it is with uh,when things need to be perfect,
so I was a bit scared ifsomebody finds something that
will like fail and stuff.
(15:12):
So that was a bit stressful forme.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So yeah, and maybe maybe share with, uh, with the
listening and viewing team.
Um, what was the full ticketcount of the problems that were
found?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I think, zero if I'm not yeah for me, most stressful
thing was when you broke yourhand.
That was my most, moststressful, uh, yeah I even
forgot about it honestly.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
honestly, I mean, yeah, it didn't impact me.
I was just working with onefull hand and the other one was
helping for the shortcuts andstuff on the keyboard.
So yeah, but it wasn'tstressful.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I don't know if we recorded any of this but for
everyone watching and listening,there was this one moment where
we had this one week Lazar hadinjured his hand playing
basketball, because he's justknown for being so highly
aggressive on the court and justturns into a beast.
(16:18):
But apparently was like whatdid you do, lazar?
You went for a ball and justcaught it with the tip of your
finger right of your yeah, yeah,yeah all, and the finger went
the other way totally so yeahyeah, the finger had, uh, had
other ideas and so, um, but itwas this one week where we were
(16:42):
building and I think it was whenthe three of us, plus Juan who
was working on the redesign,were just like kind of chewing
through a whole new redesign ofthe profile in the app and like
how the cards look in the appand all these sort of things.
(17:02):
I think we did two builds thatweek.
All the cards look in the appand all these sort of things.
I think we did two builds thatweek and as we were, as we were
like going through it, we wereon a call and, of course,
lazar's on the call with hishand in a cast, like taking all
the feedback, going all right,sounds good, yep, all right, yep
, we'll push that too.
And it like hit me.
It was like wait a wait, asecond, how like I had all these
(17:24):
mental sort of images of lazard, just sort of like are you
dictating into the computer orare like you know, and but just
like, just like crunchingthrough like updates with one
hand, uh, or like using yourelbows, or like I could.
I couldn't figure out like howwe were getting through all this
(17:45):
.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
So, uh, it was, it was magic, honestly yeah, I
thought about looking into someAI stuff that could help me, but
I didn't uh.
So, yeah, it was just uh more.
So you think it's magic, butit's just like I don't have what
to do because my hand is in acast, so then I'll just work on
(18:06):
the app.
So yeah.
I remember.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
I remember I was driving in a car with my whole
family and I got the text,basically image, from Lazar,
like hey, look at this.
And I'm like, what is that?
Is that you Please tell me?
It's not you.
And then he sent me like I'mlike, oh, my god.
(18:32):
And I remember having, likewhat Kyle said, like bunch of
stuff in the pipeline.
And I'm like, oh, no, no.
And then, and then the nextweek we were what he mentioned,
like we had like two, two orthree builds and I'm like, okay,
it's not that bad, he can keepthat broken hand forever, it's
fine, I don't mind.
(18:54):
Yeah, crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, we're glad you got your hand back and I'm
interested to see, like, as welook forward and maybe let's go
around Robin, maybe Martina, youcan go first.
But, like, as we kick this newyear off, today's January 2nd,
(19:19):
we just got our first round offunding.
So 2024 was amazing.
Basically kicking off for atimeline perspective, it was
April was really when the whenStackless was starting to be
built in earnest, when there wasan initial code base of
something that started to workand, I think, was it.
(19:42):
May, martina, when you joined,or was it?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
May.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
May.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So it was initially from atimeline perspective.
It was April was when we wereincorporated and then sort of
really started to have externalpeople to myself, sort of start
to work on it.
Martina joined in May, and thenthat was, what would that have
been?
Was it July then when youjoined Lazar?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I think it was August August.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Okay, and so then we publicly launched in September
really opening the doors towhoever wanted to come in and
sort of sign up for Stacklist.
And then we spent sort ofOctober, november really sort of
refining things, pushing out alot of the mobile updates.
(20:36):
Right now I did somethingyesterday was we still I'm still
trying to get my hands aroundlike exactly how many people we
have that we would call the usernumber.
But I went into intercom and II fleshed it down to only really
active consider within a 90 dayperiod that have sort of logged
(20:57):
in and used it and and tried it, and so it's about 200 and some
of the people but we're tryingto really get our goal for 2025
is 10,000 people and and sobreaking that down, you know we
(21:18):
really need to get.
You know that's probablybetween 800 and 1,000 users a
month in the app, likespecifically focused on or that
(21:47):
um, that you're that you thinkwe need to, to sort of zone in
on um as we kick off the year?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
that's a tough question, but I would say a lot,
of, a lot of things.
Like I know we are a small teamand we have only a couple of
brains and a couple of hands,but like I think we have to
focus on multiple stuff, likebuilding still for for you, for
our users, um, enhancing the app, integrating ai agents, um, you
(22:10):
know, search being way morecomprehensive and around the
globe, not just my search, butto search all the stackless
members.
I know.
Like making the experience soso seamless.
Like share action to just be aone button click and that's it
we got you.
Come back later, do your thing.
I think there are a couple ofways that we can improve users'
(22:33):
journey in our app so that wecan gain more what you send,
like to hit that reach 10k thisyear.
I don't know what's the.
I've been talking a lot with myfamily members as well who use
our app and to see what theythink, because I I guess they
(22:53):
would be honest with me, uh, soI'm trying to gather the
feedback of what's maybe thebiggest hurdle in their journey,
um, so that we can solve thatand maybe be more likable.
I don't know how to say it, butI would say we are on a
memorable to, I think isprobably memorable things,
sticky and memorable.
(23:15):
Yeah, those things thatbasically when you browse
anything that you just, oh, Ineed to save this and that you
have in your brain okay, I willsave it in stack list and that
shift needs to happen, um, thisyear, and it will for sure yeah,
that it's only, it's one quickaction away.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
If it's steps, then it's not, but if it's just one
quick action, yeah, I wasthinking like the other day,
like, like, um, sending a text,like basically as easy as sort
of sending a text, that youcould send it and stackless be,
like yep, I got it and toimprove the entire background
stuff.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Okay, we'll create the card for you.
The card, you'll always have animage.
Um the card, you'll always havea description of favicon and
stuff like that.
Maybe.
Ai, in the process of thebackground, when you save like
five cards in a row, we willcreate the stack for you based
on the content that you, thatyou save, and stuff like that
you know, just to make it more,more seamless and much more
quicker for the end user to touse.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
That's my two cents I think I would just say making
cards as easy as possible,saving cards as easy as possible
.
That is like the thing I wouldsay uh, when you see something,
or if we can like integratestuff with the camera, if you
(24:32):
see some product or stuff, youjust take a picture and it will
save to stack list or, uh,anything really that will just
save it.
As, martina, you just trigger astack list action and that's it
.
You just move your phone away.
We saved it, it's in your stack, don't worry about it.
Like it takes only threeseconds.
I would say that will be likethe thing, and maybe going to
(24:55):
that place is like jumping outof the fridge for people like
use stack list, use stack list.
Hey, you can save this to Stack.
Just be all over the place forpeople to know about Stacklist.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So yeah, I like that one which would be like all
right, already I get it.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I got to be on.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Stacklist.
I like that idea.
You know I've had that.
This is something that would befun to explore and I think,
especially as Apple intelligencereally, you know, gets more and
more integrated.
I was thinking about that with.
I think I first thought about it, though, when I was in New York
and I bought the meta glassesand I was walking down the
street and you really realizewhen you, when you use the meta
(25:35):
glasses and you wander aroundwith it, you have have either of
you used them.
Have you played with them?
No, nope, I gotta, I gotta withit.
Um, you have either of you usedthem.
Have you played with them?
No, nope, I gotta, I gotta, Igotta get.
I'm gonna get pairs to you andand to try it.
But like, it's one of thosethings that's the first fully
sort of integrated, even morethan like the, the, the siri
(25:56):
headphones.
But like you walk around andthere's something amazing about
the fact that, like, as you'relistening, the sound is so good.
It actually sounds like it'striangulated, like in your in
the middle of your brain fromlike a ZXZ, like index
perspective, but there's nothingin your ears and the sound is
(26:17):
just sort of magical.
But what's really interestingis to walk up.
As you're walking down thestreet, you turn and, like I saw
a restaurant in new york and Isaid like that it met to take a
picture of this, or just pressthe button and it takes a
picture and it stores it in yourphone.
But immediately I thought liketo be able to sort of turn and
(26:38):
just say like save this in stacklist, that it would take a
photo.
You have my location, you nowhave the physical image and so
the ability to scan that andsort of read the outside or
compare it with location, plustriangulate me from a gps
perspective, you pretty muchhave everything you need to be
(26:59):
able to save this thing.
Um, I had this mental imagewhere it was like you just get
this like emoji thumbs up, whereit's kind of like yep got it
and you're like, oh my gosh,that's so great, how to be able
to just walk around and be like,you know, save this.
but I think now also that appleintelligence has the button on
the side, um, that you hold itdown and it triggers this, like
(27:26):
you know, and you can basicallysearch with a photo.
Same thing.
To be able to do it and then tointegrate it in with Apple
intelligence, to be able to belike, hey, capture this product
or this barcode or this orwhatever, and to have it go like
, yeah, I know what you're goingfor, I got it, and that it's in
your kind of second brain, iswould be a really cool, a cool
(27:51):
accomplishment to to tackle.
you know I'm going to be hyperfocused on user growth and
trying to like figure out how weclock you know X number of
people per day, that the signupsreally start to become one of
those things where we're like,oh, I got to mute that signup
(28:13):
channel Because you know it'sjust like, it's just, it's going
.
And for me, thinking about likeonboarding, the first 20 seconds
you start using something,whether it be the app or the
platform or whatever it is thatyou're it just kind of is fun
and enjoyable.
How you import a lot of stuffthat you've had previously, so
(28:35):
that immediately when you startusing the app and the platforms,
that you've got enough stuffthat it feels kind of like yours
and that you don't have to feellike, oh, I've been presented
with this empty bucket that Inow need to spend time filling
up, which feels like work.
You could just put anythinginto it and it happens really,
(29:04):
really fast.
And then also importing thingsfrom any other service that
you've used, or hooking upanother service like a Gmail
right that if it could justlisten to your Gmail and find
any link that came into yourGmail and just store it for you,
that it immediately becomeslike working for you.
I think those just reducingthat friction and those barriers
(29:25):
would be a huge, a huge thingfor this year.
And then you're right aboutinnovating and like AI agents,
where you start to ask it youknow, find some stuff for me or
put some stuff together or, likeyou know, watch my friends.
You know stacks that have beenshared with me and pull those
things together.
You know stacks that that havebeen shared with me and and pull
those things together, etcetera.
(29:45):
Um would be, uh, would bereally cool.
Um, I think those are going tobe some good ones to to watch
out for.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, I think speed is the crucial one, because I
was.
I was walking the other day andyou know, and you have two kids
, you don't have much time.
So I was walking now and Ireally wanted to say something
and I was hitting the shareaction, um, and it took me like
minute or two to get it.
You know, uh, all set up andsaved, and I was like I don't
(30:17):
have that time, I just need toclick, save it as fast as I can
and put my phone away because Ihave two kids to watch, not to
go on the street.
So I think speed wise is reallyit's really crucial thing and
being able to maybe in thebackground, sort it and stack it
for you.
So if I had saved 20 cards inthe last 30 minutes, do your
(30:37):
thing, you know, go through themand make, make, make a stack
for me.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So yeah, Maybe there's two words that we should
focus on.
One is speed and the other isconfidence.
Confidence being, if I send itto Stacklist, like I never worry
about it.
I, when I log in, like Ithought about this, like if we,
if we, if we sent a list of 20links, if you imported a list of
(31:01):
20 links in, um, I don't know,a spreadsheet or something like
that, or you forwarded an emailwith 20 links, that it pulls
those in, but you're soconfident that, like, when you
go back to your desktop or onthe mobile phone and you see
what's been imported, you justnever think about it, like it
just is right.
Um, those two things would besuch a high like.
(31:24):
Getting those two things rightwould, I think, really nail it
this year for speed andconfidence.
What do you think, what areyour thoughts about this year If
you look beyond this week?
What are some predictions thatyou think you're gonna have?
What does November of this yearlook like?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
What does the product look like this week?
What are some?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
predictions that you think you're gonna have.
Like what does november of thisyear look like?
What is that?
What does the product look like?
What does the platform looklike?
What does the team look like?
What do you what?
What milestones do you thinkwe've hit?
Who's gonna go first?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
you go me okay.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Uh, well, let's say, if we have a successful 2025,
then when you go to instagram tosome influencers that have
their uh link tree and stuff,it's not link tree, it's
stacklistapp, and then you goand see all the links and stuff.
So hopefully, that that's thethe.
(32:20):
You know, the thing we do thisyear that we have made it easier
for some people to just showtheir links as well.
It's not always just savingstuff, it's just it's showcasing
your stuff as well.
So, uh, yeah, I would say, andteam wise, uh well, I would be
happy for some additions ifneeded.
(32:41):
That means that we have morestuff to do.
That means that we've improvedand we need more people.
So I'm not going to say numbers, obviously, but yeah, if we
need to improve and work more,that means we're doing the right
thing.
So I'm all good for expandingthe team if needed.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
So, yeah, yeah, I would say I have a lot of things
on my mind.
I have all the goods and thebad, the bets, like all the
highs and the lows, becausethose are inevitable in the
startup.
You know you go like this andthen you have to hit some hurdle
and then you're like, oh my god, why?
Uh, so a lot of thingshappening in my mind these
couple of days, um, but I see itgrowing and growing and, you
(33:21):
know, just building all thestuff that we want to build.
I see happy users on the otherend.
So I see a lot of nice imagesin my head.
The mobile app exploding.
You know everybody'sdownloading.
We have a zillion of reviews onthe App Store and the Play
(33:42):
Store.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
All the kids are talking about it.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
All the, the, all the cookies are, you know, in there
, so you don't have to worryabout it.
So yeah, I would say just totop my monologue off, if we are
going to expand, then maybe thetitle you have is not correct.
Right, you should be a mobilelead.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, I agree.
So how about we do that now?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I don't have the words.
We'll see we'll see.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
No we should do that now.
What do you think, Martina?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Let's do it?
Yeah, no, we will not see itAll.
Right, we'll see it now Allright.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
So, lazar, that's it.
We want to make sure that,going into this year, your title
is appropriate, so mobiledevelopment lead sounds much
more fitting.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Thank you.
Thank you, this is a pleasureand an honor.
So, yeah, you see I'm startling, so I'm lost for words.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I think there's one more thing that we want to also
add to that which is foundingmember, because you know you've
(35:10):
really been.
I think you not only exude thesort of qualities that we want
to make sure that we it's funny,martina I've talked about some
roles that we need to open upand I think when we talk about
the roles and the team memberswho need to join, your name
comes up being like you knowit's like Lazar.
We just need to get someone likeLazar.
We just need to get someonelike Lazar.
So I think it's always socritical and so important when
you're building a team like thisand you also have limited funds
(35:30):
.
we need to be getting to a seedround of, you know, a pre-seed
round of two or three million,or getting to a seed round at
some point of four or fivemillion that, like right now,
(35:52):
we're still like you know, it'sstill little bits of resources,
and so it's always a key thatwhoever sort of comes into the
fold, you know, has that samesort of and I, you know, I can
tell when you're it feels likeyou're always kind of thinking
about it and pushing new thingsand trying to push the app on
(36:13):
its own without being asked, andyou're always so proactive and
sort of figuring out where wecan take it and those sort of
things.
And I think that's it's not,it's not something that I think
in a bigger company that is sortof hailed as, like you know,
different and and and stand out,but in a startup, when you're
(36:36):
really trying to push thingsforward past bigger companies
that have, you know, biggerbudgets and bigger teams, it's,
it's a necessity, and and.
So I think you know, I thinkit's it's only fitting that you
also have a title of foundingmember.
You know, and, and the apps areyours, the apps are your, your
(36:58):
babies.
So, um, um, so yeah, we'reexcited that you're, you're,
you're on the team and and andwith us on the journey, um, as a
, as a mobile development leadand as a founding member, thank
you.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
uh, thank you for all these kind words, but I would
just want to say that, uh, it'sjust easy to work with you guys,
and it's a pleasure to workwith you guys, so that's what
makes me better.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Because of the GIFs.
Right, Really, it's all theSlack GIFs and all the
shenanigans.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And trash talks, and trash talks.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Exactly Nice.
Well, I would say I think it's,you know, it's.
It's fun to start off this yearin such high, high expectations
and high hopes and and andthings like that.
I will say that we should alsobrace for what will be a fairly
difficult year, going to havelots of team members come and go
(38:13):
.
We're going to have and that'sgreat.
I don't think it should besomething that we should be
thinking about that as a likeyou know, how do we keep our
spirits high or how do we sortof, how do we make it through
this?
Like this should be theexpectation.
We will have lots of peoplecome and go because we're going
to be trying lots of people out.
(38:35):
We're going to be essentiallylike recruiting and trialing
lots of people to see if theyfit, you know, in the team, and
that should be the expectation,because we only want to make
sure that we're bringing peoplein and that people are coming on
the ride with us, um, if theykind of fit, you know, I think.
(39:00):
I think having the skill sets isgoing to be important, but most
important for me is that Ithink just the vibe and the what
they bring to the team and theculture and the culture is both
respectful but also the sort offun and optimistic and we're not
adding people to the team thatare sort of pessimistic in the
(39:25):
way of like, oh, I don't know ifthis is going to work, or you
know why are we trying this orwhatever?
But really that like thatfeeling of trying everything and
everything is possible and Idon't know, so let's see.
And, just like you know,iterating with us, but also in
(39:46):
that sort of fun and pushing us.
I love this idea of Noah Kagan,who founded AppSumo and who had
worked with Mark Zuckerberg,really had this great email that
he wrote about Mark and hisphilosophies and one of the
things that he had said is thathe wanted to only hire people
(40:07):
that he would feel comfortablewanting to work for.
So if we hire, even if it's ajunior QA person or Lazar, if we
were to hire somebody as anadditional mobile developer to
work with you that you wouldalmost want to work for them,
(40:28):
that you would be happy workingfor them, because they're also
just pushing you and you'relearning stuff from them.
And I think we've got to makesure that we're we're thinking
about it in that sense and thatwe're never really bringing
someone onto the team who is um,oh, my, my let'll see.
(40:48):
Camera decided to.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
But that was the same thing I was telling Lazar in
our 101 this morning.
So I mean product, we are set,we all believe in product, but
people are what makes even theproduct ship on the next level.
So the excitement when you opena laptop and have huddles or
something to collaborate withpeople, that's something that we
(41:12):
strive for and want to seeother people that we bring on.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, and not, I think, also not having people
who sort of ask what's next,what should I work on next, or
or how should we solve this?
I think it's the.
It should be the opposite.
It is I'm already one stepahead of you.
It should be the opposite.
It is I'm already one stepahead of you and I'm telling you
how this is.
I'm like I've already figuredit out.
I've already done my homeworkand I've already figured it out
(41:38):
and I've already told you howthis should be.
You know, and those sorts ofthings, I think, are the only
way that we're going to stayahead of of being able, like you
, like you said, of being ableto ship so quick and so fast, is
not have anybody sort ofhanging around, you know,
wondering either what's next orasking us, but sort of almost
(41:58):
staying ahead of all of us andwe're all sort of in a good way
competing for seeing how fast wecan sort of like stay ahead of
the curve, you know, and andthings like that.
So, um, and we're gonna have upsome ups and downs, the product
hunt stuff.
I think we should figure outhow to also, you know, keep that
(42:21):
level of like drive um and and,but also stay authentically
connect.
I want to make sure that we'reall sort stay authentically
connected.
I want to make sure that we'reall sort of authentically
connected to the users that areusing this.
So, while I don't want to weighus all down with, like
answering tickets and those sortof things, I want to make sure
(42:43):
that we also are not so focusedin linear, now that we're away
from Jira, that we're so focusedin linear that we're just
chewing through stuff, and a lotof times what happens is you
sort of go heads down and you'rejust kind of focused on stuff
like this so much that you getin this like kind of bubble of
(43:05):
what you think is right that wewere also sort of tapped into
the users, and so I think itwould be also good and not to be
prescriptive, but we shouldalso figure out how each one of
us maybe it's once a weekinterviews a user you know, or
or same for you as ours.
(43:26):
Like is, find a mobile user youknow, find our, our, our sort of
best iOS or Android user andand reach out to them on on
intercom and be like hey, I wantto pick your brain for 20
minutes.
Do you've got time to talk?
You know, we'll give you a giftcard or something and just ask,
like, what about this?
Or what's the most, what's the,what's the parts that are the
(43:47):
worst and how do we fix it?
And like and like trying tostay really, really connected,
um, to the people that are usingit and listening to those
things, and and finding goodways to get that feedback,
because we don't want to stay inour own little bubble about
what we think is interesting.
Um, we want to sort of makesure we're staying like
hyper-connected to the peoplewho are using it.
(44:08):
So we should stayinghyper-connected to the people
who are using it.
So we should figure out somegood ways to integrate that into
our flow to stay out of our ownmatrix.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
That's for sure.
I think I told you that on ourfirst Building Stackless podcast
when you asked me like, in thefuture, what I aspire for is
that's something that I wouldlike for us to never lose that
listening to the end user.
I mean, the users are what weare building for, so that should
always be our focus, you know,to make it better for the users,
(44:39):
not for ourselves.
I mean, maybe I would use somefeature, but if 200,000 users
would not use it, then it'spretty obvious.
So, yeah, I agree, cool,amazing would not use it?
Then it's pretty obvious.
So, yeah, I agree cool, amazing.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, here's to a an amazing 2025, and I think we
should do this once a month.
Um, maybe at the very beginningof a month, let's just sort of
look back and see what we'veaccomplished, you know, based on
what we thought was going tohappen, but also like what we've
, what we've done in theprevious month and where we're
headed um, so we can kind of gutcheck and check in on and and
(45:14):
as fast as we move a month islike forever.
So uh it'll be.
It'll be amazing to see um sortof you know, month after month.
So we'll have to do this againsoon.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Yeah, oh my gosh and I'm gonna have to go google I
know what the heck.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Uh, I'll have to go talk to somebody about this.
Anyways, um, cool, and any lastwords just look out for us in
2025.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I guess that's out because we're coming we're
coming for you yeah.
Obviously, Martina is on the web and she's too fast,
so you need to catch up withMartina.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
To become one of those things where we're like,
oh, I got to mute that sign-upchannel.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
What do you sound like to hit that reach 10K this
year?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Watch out because we're coming.
We're coming for you.
Happy 2025.
Martina and Lazar are going tobe joining me shortly and we're
going to be kicking off this newyear with a new episode.
Cheers, hello, sir, hello howare you Great?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
How are you doing?
Happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year, I'm stillwaking up.
Yeah, happy New Year, happy.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
New Year.
I'm still waking up.
Yeah, is it 5 am at your place,or?
You're six hours behind.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's crazyJanuary 2nd and you're up at 5
am.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Let's go Hello, hey, hello,hello, welcome to 2025.
(01:21):
Indeed.
Well, technically, both of youshould invite me with just a
little, maybe, reflection backand then also what the heck is
going to happen this yearpredictions.
While I have sips of coffeeevery now and then, I want to,
like Lazar, we haven't had timeto to to sort of meet you.
(01:46):
Uh, or the, or the audiencehasn't had a chance to kind of
meet you yet.
So, uh, I thought what I'd liketo do is just get started by
maybe giving a little bit ofyour background and then, um,
and then follow it up with, likeI don't know kind of what you
thought when you first joined usand when you first, like, heard
about Stacklist and came in andstarted kind of looking at
(02:12):
everything, what your initialimpressions were.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, I'll start way back when I started as a graphic
designer, I guess, which waslike my first when I was still
studying, my first gigs andstuff.
I was just trying to make somemoney on the side by just doing
anything.
So I was into MBA and then Ijoined some editorial staff
(02:37):
which needed a graphic designer.
So I started doing graphicdesign and after that, yeah, I
just went into coding with webdeveloping and into mobile apps.
So I've been doing this forlike five, six years, doing
mobile development for like fouryears.
So, yeah, pretty much I knewthat I wanted to do mobile apps.
(02:59):
So once I learned about Flutter, I was like this is the new
cool thing.
And then I was like, yeah, Ineed to jump on this and learn
it.
It was fun because you coulddevelop Android and iOS at the
same time, which was fun.
So, yeah, that's, I guess, myshort background.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
What did you design in originally and what kind of
stuff did you work on when youwere?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
designing.
What did you design inoriginally and what kind of
stuff did you work on when youwere designing?
I was doing like promo for NBAgames because we had like a page
and, as I said, editorial stuffwhich was called NBA Serbia.
So we were mostly followingguys from Serbia that were
playing in the NBA.
So all like social media promostuff, like promoting games when
are they playing their statsand stuff like that.
(03:46):
So that's mostly what I wasdoing in some video editing as
well.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
So yeah, Lina Kovacevic, did your tech career
started off when you figure outyou won't be next to Nikola
Jokic, or?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
basically yeah.
Yeah, I mean I was doing a lotof stats back then for Nikola.
He was not as famous as he isnow, but yeah, we basically
started off at the same time, Iwould say.
But he is now obviously muchmore famous.
But yeah, thanks to Nikola, Istarted off my career.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I had what to do in the editorial stuff, so yeah,
what made you make the pivotfrom designing, designing to to
coding?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
well, I obviously uh knew that I wanted to do coding
from the start, because I was atmy computer basically, uh, 24 7
.
So I had an idea that I wouldlike uh do coding, be a
developer at some point, uh, butI had, as martina mentioned,
some dreams that I would be abasketball player.
Uh, so, but I had, as Martinamentioned, some dreams that I
(04:45):
would be a basketball player.
So once that died, then I waslike, okay, now I need to go to
university and stuff, so whatwill I do?
I'm good at maths, okay, let'sthen just do coding.
And I'm at the computer all thetime, so let's do coding.
So it was kind of natural.
And, uh, I never looked back.
It's amazing.
So yeah, nice, um.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, and both of you are, uh, are well seasoned
basketball players.
I am not, so if we were to playhorse, maybe we could play.
Maybe if we were to play uh,then I know, uh, I'm gonna get
schooled, but uh, at some pointI still wanna uh.
Like you know, the three of ushave to have to get on a court
(05:29):
just because I've heard of allof the um trash all of the
accolades from both.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Oh yeah, exactly, and trash talk yeah yeah, I mean
trash talk is the best, butyou'll see on the court it was
better.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, when did you like what did you think about
Stackless when you first joined?
Like what were your first sortof like really initial thoughts
when you kind of heard about itand then when you kind of jumped
in and started looking at theinitial code base and things
like that and started looking atat the initial code base and
things like that, what were yourkind of initial thoughts of the
(06:10):
, the overall idea and and umand kind of the initial
implementation when you jumpedin oh well.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Well, the first uh time I heard about stacklist, it
was like or how did nobody cameup with it before?
Because it was so cool?
I was like, yeah, this seemspretty uh useful and intuitive
and to use and like, how doesn'tit exist already?
So, uh, yeah, I was amazed bythe idea.
(06:38):
I really liked it and that'slike the biggest part why I
decided to join and to give it atry, because I felt like I
would also use it and believe inthe project.
When you work on something thatyou also believe in, it's much
easier to work.
So, yeah, I really liked it.
(06:59):
And when I jumped into theinitial code base and the
project itself and the team andeverything, I would say that the
team is like Stacklist is thebest team I've worked on because
everybody is so proactive,everybody, the communication is
amazing, everybody is responsive, so everything goes fast, which
(07:22):
is awesome, especially whenyou're a startup, I guess, and
you need to get things done fast.
So that's that's I mean, useful.
So, yeah, uh, everything waspositive, which is like crazy,
maybe, to say when you joinfirst, first time but no
negatives as of now and I'vebeen here for like what?
Five months.
(07:43):
This is so no negative feedback.
So that's amazing Nice.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Cool.
What about kind of I can'tremember when, what was the
initial?
We had had some initial codebase, originally, right when you
joined, and I think we've hadlike one or two people's kind of
.
Yeah, we had had, we had hadone or two people sort of, you
know, start to to build thingsout, um.
(08:12):
But then, um, you've reallytaken it and kind of made it
your own and and kind ofrefactored everything.
Um, what's the?
What was the process like whenyou sort of first jumped in and
looked at everything and sawwhere it was?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, well, when I first jumped in, the first
impression was that the iOS appwas way ahead of Android app and
the project was using Flutter,which was amazing.
And I would say the purpose ofFlutter is exactly that cross
platform developing, sodeveloping at the same time at
(08:48):
the same speed.
So the first thing was to justget Android up to speed with the
iOS and then catch up to web,because obviously Martina is on
the web and she's too fast, soyou need to catch up with
Martina.
So that were the initialthoughts just to get both mobile
platforms at the same level andthen catch up to web.
(09:12):
But, yeah, I would sayrefactoring was slow, as
refactoring is, but sometimes Imean you need to go slow to go
fast, which is what we're doingnow.
So that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And you previously worked in in a bigger company,
right yeah yeah, and what wouldyou say?
Is the the most like?
How would I put it?
What's the biggest differencebetween the two environments
like the big cultural wise andthe big company, and the
procedure that may be there thatwe don't have, versus here?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Well, I would say speed.
First of all because in biggercompanies you need to get
approval from approval, from anapproval, and then, once you get
five approvals, then you canpush something In startups.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It's much faster, so you just you have it and then
tell everyone what shipped.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, just like see what what happens on prod, so
but yeah, it's much faster instartup, I would say.
And, as I mentioned,communication, obviously
communication is a bigdifference.
Also, I think here are thingsmuch more dynamic is a big
difference.
Also, I think here are thingsmuch more dynamic and sometimes
that they could be stressful,but I think that's also good
(10:30):
because it makes you focus more.
But, yeah, I would say,communication and speed is like
the main difference between,like, big companies and startups
.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
How do you like our YOLO Friday pushes?
You know, that's stressful,that's stressful.
I mean, you're the only one.
If something goes terrible, youneed to be present to fix it.
It can ruin your weekend.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
You don't have the weekend I mean.
So if we wanted to likeintroduce, martina discussed
introducing YOLO weekends aswell.
We've pushed the brakes for now.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
so that's it just very late post every day on the
weekend post dinner yeah,exactly push and then, like, go
to bed and sleep soundly.
I love it.
Um, that's great.
What about like what, what?
(11:27):
What have you felt like what?
What are some of the thingsthat we've done that you feel
like are that we should keep?
I mean, even even as we growinto a team of five or ten or
twenty, you know above, likewhat do you think are the, the
like three things that we shouldsort of keep the same as much
as possible?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
That's a hard question.
Honestly.
I would say, if we can, weshould keep the speed, because I
think that's like our thing.
Like as for now it's like atleast pushed one time a week so
the users have new experiencesevery week is fun, so I would
say that.
But obviously it's hard whenyou add more people so you then
(12:11):
maybe have code reviews andstuff which takes much more time
.
Also you have like more QA.
So we'll see.
But I would say speed is, if wecan keep it, then that would be
awesome.
Definitely always talking aboutthe speed, sorry, but I'm just
so amazed by it because it'sreally amazing the speed we're
(12:33):
doing it.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
so, for the people watching, the people listening,
um, if you don't know, um, Ithink we actually have a
terminator emoji, um, in slackthat is specific to use mid
journey and combine what is sortlike Lazar's face or sort of
like Lazar's face plus aTerminator, because Lazar just
(12:58):
is a machine.
And so we've even had we had avisual design team member that
said Lazar was too fast, um anduh, and usually the idea is like
we're like hey, we have someideas about what should be done
and we put those in Slack, andthen, if you give it like an
(13:19):
hour or so, you see this buildcome through like wait, hold on.
We just talked about this stuffand the build is already ready.
So, um, that's, this is, thisis lazar's mo is.
Um, if you think you need toestimate something out, um, you
know lazar is probably gonnahave it ready in the short term,
(13:40):
which is amazing.
So, martini, you were gonna,you were going to say something.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
You stole my thought basically Sorry.
No, no.
But I was going to ask.
We downsized a bit this yearand I was just going to ask how
did you keep your morale highand keep the pace, kept the pace
, and how was the process foryou in that time?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
uh.
Well, as I said, that sort ofties it to the beginning when I
came to the project and thespeed thing as well.
I mean, my speed thing is whenyou just believe in the project
and you enjoy working on it.
Uh, then you can just uh whileyou enjoy working.
It's just going fast, which isawesome.
And yeah, the morale never wentdown, honestly, even if when we
(14:31):
downscaled because still I waslike, yeah, this is awesome, the
app is awesome, I believe thatit will succeed.
So, yeah, I mean it neverreally impacted me that we
downsized the team, so yeah,cool?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
and in this last five , six month, what was the most
stressful event for you?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
the most stressful, um, not sure.
I think product product huntwas the one, because it went
live and it's like we testedeverything.
But you know how it is with uh,when things need to be perfect,
so I was a bit scared ifsomebody finds something that
will like fail and stuff.
(15:12):
So that was a bit stressful forme.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So yeah, and maybe maybe share with, uh, with the
listening and viewing team.
Um, what was the full ticketcount of the problems that were
found?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I think, zero if I'm not yeah for me, most stressful
thing was when you broke yourhand.
That was my most, moststressful, uh, yeah I even
forgot about it honestly.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
honestly, I mean, yeah, it didn't impact me.
I was just working with onefull hand and the other one was
helping for the shortcuts andstuff on the keyboard.
So yeah, but it wasn'tstressful.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I don't know if we recorded any of this but for
everyone watching and listening,there was this one moment where
we had this one week Lazar hadinjured his hand playing
basketball, because he's justknown for being so highly
aggressive on the court and justturns into a beast.
(16:18):
But apparently was like whatdid you do, lazar?
You went for a ball and justcaught it with the tip of your
finger right of your yeah, yeah,yeah all, and the finger went
the other way totally so yeahyeah, the finger had, uh, had
other ideas and so, um, but itwas this one week where we were
(16:42):
building and I think it was whenthe three of us, plus Juan who
was working on the redesign,were just like kind of chewing
through a whole new redesign ofthe profile in the app and like
how the cards look in the appand all these sort of things.
(17:02):
I think we did two builds thatweek.
All the cards look in the appand all these sort of things.
I think we did two builds thatweek and as we were, as we were
like going through it, we wereon a call and, of course,
lazar's on the call with hishand in a cast, like taking all
the feedback, going all right,sounds good, yep, all right, yep
, we'll push that too.
And it like hit me.
It was like wait a wait, asecond, how like I had all these
(17:24):
mental sort of images of lazard, just sort of like are you
dictating into the computer orare like you know, and but just
like, just like crunchingthrough like updates with one
hand, uh, or like using yourelbows, or like I could.
I couldn't figure out like howwe were getting through all this
(17:45):
.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
So, uh, it was, it was magic, honestly yeah, I
thought about looking into someAI stuff that could help me, but
I didn't uh.
So, yeah, it was just uh more.
So you think it's magic, butit's just like I don't have what
to do because my hand is in acast, so then I'll just work on
(18:06):
the app.
So yeah.
I remember.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
I remember I was driving in a car with my whole
family and I got the text,basically image, from Lazar,
like hey, look at this.
And I'm like, what is that?
Is that you Please tell me?
It's not you.
And then he sent me like I'mlike, oh, my god.
(18:32):
And I remember having, likewhat Kyle said, like bunch of
stuff in the pipeline.
And I'm like, oh, no, no.
And then, and then the nextweek we were what he mentioned,
like we had like two, two orthree builds and I'm like, okay,
it's not that bad, he can keepthat broken hand forever, it's
fine, I don't mind.
(18:54):
Yeah, crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, we're glad you got your hand back and I'm
interested to see, like, as welook forward and maybe let's go
around Robin, maybe Martina, youcan go first.
But, like, as we kick this newyear off, today's January 2nd,
(19:19):
we just got our first round offunding.
So 2024 was amazing.
Basically kicking off for atimeline perspective, it was
April was really when the whenStackless was starting to be
built in earnest, when there wasan initial code base of
something that started to workand, I think, was it.
(19:42):
May, martina, when you joined,or was it?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
May.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
May.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So it was initially from atimeline perspective.
It was April was when we wereincorporated and then sort of
really started to have externalpeople to myself, sort of start
to work on it.
Martina joined in May, and thenthat was, what would that have
been?
Was it July then when youjoined Lazar?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I think it was August August.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Okay, and so then we publicly launched in September
really opening the doors towhoever wanted to come in and
sort of sign up for Stacklist.
And then we spent sort ofOctober, november really sort of
refining things, pushing out alot of the mobile updates.
(20:36):
Right now I did somethingyesterday was we still I'm still
trying to get my hands aroundlike exactly how many people we
have that we would call the usernumber.
But I went into intercom and II fleshed it down to only really
active consider within a 90 dayperiod that have sort of logged
(20:57):
in and used it and and tried it, and so it's about 200 and some
of the people but we're tryingto really get our goal for 2025
is 10,000 people and and sobreaking that down, you know we
(21:18):
really need to get.
You know that's probablybetween 800 and 1,000 users a
month in the app, likespecifically focused on or that
(21:47):
um, that you're that you thinkwe need to, to sort of zone in
on um as we kick off the year?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
that's a tough question, but I would say a lot,
of, a lot of things.
Like I know we are a small teamand we have only a couple of
brains and a couple of hands,but like I think we have to
focus on multiple stuff, likebuilding still for for you, for
our users, um, enhancing the app, integrating ai agents, um, you
(22:10):
know, search being way morecomprehensive and around the
globe, not just my search, butto search all the stackless
members.
I know.
Like making the experience soso seamless.
Like share action to just be aone button click and that's it
we got you.
Come back later, do your thing.
I think there are a couple ofways that we can improve users'
(22:33):
journey in our app so that wecan gain more what you send,
like to hit that reach 10k thisyear.
I don't know what's the.
I've been talking a lot with myfamily members as well who use
our app and to see what theythink, because I I guess they
(22:53):
would be honest with me, uh, soI'm trying to gather the
feedback of what's maybe thebiggest hurdle in their journey,
um, so that we can solve thatand maybe be more likable.
I don't know how to say it, butI would say we are on a
memorable to, I think isprobably memorable things,
sticky and memorable.
(23:15):
Yeah, those things thatbasically when you browse
anything that you just, oh, Ineed to save this and that you
have in your brain okay, I willsave it in stack list and that
shift needs to happen, um, thisyear, and it will for sure yeah,
that it's only, it's one quickaction away.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
If it's steps, then it's not, but if it's just one
quick action, yeah, I wasthinking like the other day,
like, like, um, sending a text,like basically as easy as sort
of sending a text, that youcould send it and stackless be,
like yep, I got it and toimprove the entire background
stuff.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Okay, we'll create the card for you.
The card, you'll always have animage.
Um the card, you'll always havea description of favicon and
stuff like that.
Maybe.
Ai, in the process of thebackground, when you save like
five cards in a row, we willcreate the stack for you based
on the content that you, thatyou save, and stuff like that
you know, just to make it more,more seamless and much more
quicker for the end user to touse.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
That's my two cents I think I would just say making
cards as easy as possible,saving cards as easy as possible
.
That is like the thing I wouldsay uh, when you see something,
or if we can like integratestuff with the camera, if you
(24:32):
see some product or stuff, youjust take a picture and it will
save to stack list or, uh,anything really that will just
save it.
As, martina, you just trigger astack list action and that's it
.
You just move your phone away.
We saved it, it's in your stack, don't worry about it.
Like it takes only threeseconds.
I would say that will be likethe thing, and maybe going to
(24:55):
that place is like jumping outof the fridge for people like
use stack list, use stack list.
Hey, you can save this to Stack.
Just be all over the place forpeople to know about Stacklist.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So yeah, I like that one which would be like all
right, already I get it.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I got to be on.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Stacklist.
I like that idea.
You know I've had that.
This is something that would befun to explore and I think,
especially as Apple intelligencereally, you know, gets more and
more integrated.
I was thinking about that with.
I think I first thought about it, though, when I was in New York
and I bought the meta glassesand I was walking down the
street and you really realizewhen you, when you use the meta
(25:35):
glasses and you wander aroundwith it, you have have either of
you used them.
Have you played with them?
No, nope, I gotta, I gotta withit.
Um, you have either of you usedthem.
Have you played with them?
No, nope, I gotta, I gotta, Igotta get.
I'm gonna get pairs to you andand to try it.
But like, it's one of thosethings that's the first fully
sort of integrated, even morethan like the, the, the siri
(25:56):
headphones.
But like you walk around andthere's something amazing about
the fact that, like, as you'relistening, the sound is so good.
It actually sounds like it'striangulated, like in your in
the middle of your brain fromlike a ZXZ, like index
perspective, but there's nothingin your ears and the sound is
(26:17):
just sort of magical.
But what's really interestingis to walk up.
As you're walking down thestreet, you turn and, like I saw
a restaurant in new york and Isaid like that it met to take a
picture of this, or just pressthe button and it takes a
picture and it stores it in yourphone.
But immediately I thought liketo be able to sort of turn and
(26:38):
just say like save this in stacklist, that it would take a
photo.
You have my location, you nowhave the physical image and so
the ability to scan that andsort of read the outside or
compare it with location, plustriangulate me from a gps
perspective, you pretty muchhave everything you need to be
(26:59):
able to save this thing.
Um, I had this mental imagewhere it was like you just get
this like emoji thumbs up, whereit's kind of like yep got it
and you're like, oh my gosh,that's so great, how to be able
to just walk around and be like,you know, save this.
but I think now also that appleintelligence has the button on
the side, um, that you hold itdown and it triggers this, like
(27:26):
you know, and you can basicallysearch with a photo.
Same thing.
To be able to do it and then tointegrate it in with Apple
intelligence, to be able to belike, hey, capture this product
or this barcode or this orwhatever, and to have it go like
, yeah, I know what you're goingfor, I got it, and that it's in
your kind of second brain, iswould be a really cool, a cool
(27:51):
accomplishment to to tackle.
you know I'm going to be hyperfocused on user growth and
trying to like figure out how weclock you know X number of
people per day, that the signupsreally start to become one of
those things where we're like,oh, I got to mute that signup
(28:13):
channel Because you know it'sjust like, it's just, it's going
.
And for me, thinking about likeonboarding, the first 20 seconds
you start using something,whether it be the app or the
platform or whatever it is thatyou're it just kind of is fun
and enjoyable.
How you import a lot of stuffthat you've had previously, so
(28:35):
that immediately when you startusing the app and the platforms,
that you've got enough stuffthat it feels kind of like yours
and that you don't have to feellike, oh, I've been presented
with this empty bucket that Inow need to spend time filling
up, which feels like work.
You could just put anythinginto it and it happens really,
(29:04):
really fast.
And then also importing thingsfrom any other service that
you've used, or hooking upanother service like a Gmail
right that if it could justlisten to your Gmail and find
any link that came into yourGmail and just store it for you,
that it immediately becomeslike working for you.
I think those just reducingthat friction and those barriers
(29:25):
would be a huge, a huge thingfor this year.
And then you're right aboutinnovating and like AI agents,
where you start to ask it youknow, find some stuff for me or
put some stuff together or, likeyou know, watch my friends.
You know stacks that have beenshared with me and pull those
things together.
You know stacks that that havebeen shared with me and and pull
those things together, etcetera.
(29:45):
Um would be, uh, would bereally cool.
Um, I think those are going tobe some good ones to to watch
out for.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, I think speed is the crucial one, because I
was.
I was walking the other day andyou know, and you have two kids
, you don't have much time.
So I was walking now and Ireally wanted to say something
and I was hitting the shareaction, um, and it took me like
minute or two to get it.
You know, uh, all set up andsaved, and I was like I don't
(30:17):
have that time, I just need toclick, save it as fast as I can
and put my phone away because Ihave two kids to watch, not to
go on the street.
So I think speed wise is reallyit's really crucial thing and
being able to maybe in thebackground, sort it and stack it
for you.
So if I had saved 20 cards inthe last 30 minutes, do your
(30:37):
thing, you know, go through themand make, make, make a stack
for me.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So yeah, Maybe there's two words that we should
focus on.
One is speed and the other isconfidence.
Confidence being, if I send itto Stacklist, like I never worry
about it.
I, when I log in, like Ithought about this, like if we,
if we, if we sent a list of 20links, if you imported a list of
(31:01):
20 links in, um, I don't know,a spreadsheet or something like
that, or you forwarded an emailwith 20 links, that it pulls
those in, but you're soconfident that, like, when you
go back to your desktop or onthe mobile phone and you see
what's been imported, you justnever think about it, like it
just is right.
Um, those two things would besuch a high like.
(31:24):
Getting those two things rightwould, I think, really nail it
this year for speed andconfidence.
What do you think, what areyour thoughts about this year If
you look beyond this week?
What are some predictions thatyou think you're gonna have?
What does November of this yearlook like?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
What does the product look like this week?
What are some?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
predictions that you think you're gonna have.
Like what does november of thisyear look like?
What is that?
What does the product look like?
What does the platform looklike?
What does the team look like?
What do you what?
What milestones do you thinkwe've hit?
Who's gonna go first?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
you go me okay.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Uh, well, let's say, if we have a successful 2025,
then when you go to instagram tosome influencers that have
their uh link tree and stuff,it's not link tree, it's
stacklistapp, and then you goand see all the links and stuff.
So hopefully, that that's thethe.
(32:20):
You know, the thing we do thisyear that we have made it easier
for some people to just showtheir links as well.
It's not always just savingstuff, it's just it's showcasing
your stuff as well.
So, uh, yeah, I would say, andteam wise, uh well, I would be
happy for some additions ifneeded.
(32:41):
That means that we have morestuff to do.
That means that we've improvedand we need more people.
So I'm not going to say numbers, obviously, but yeah, if we
need to improve and work more,that means we're doing the right
thing.
So I'm all good for expandingthe team if needed.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
So, yeah, yeah, I would say I have a lot of things
on my mind.
I have all the goods and thebad, the bets, like all the
highs and the lows, becausethose are inevitable in the
startup.
You know you go like this andthen you have to hit some hurdle
and then you're like, oh my god, why?
Uh, so a lot of thingshappening in my mind these
couple of days, um, but I see itgrowing and growing and, you
(33:21):
know, just building all thestuff that we want to build.
I see happy users on the otherend.
So I see a lot of nice imagesin my head.
The mobile app exploding.
You know everybody'sdownloading.
We have a zillion of reviews onthe App Store and the Play
(33:42):
Store.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
All the kids are talking about it.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
All the, the, all the cookies are, you know, in there
, so you don't have to worryabout it.
So yeah, I would say just totop my monologue off, if we are
going to expand, then maybe thetitle you have is not correct.
Right, you should be a mobilelead.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, I agree.
So how about we do that now?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I don't have the words.
We'll see we'll see.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
No we should do that now.
What do you think, Martina?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Let's do it?
Yeah, no, we will not see itAll.
Right, we'll see it now Allright.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
So, lazar, that's it.
We want to make sure that,going into this year, your title
is appropriate, so mobiledevelopment lead sounds much
more fitting.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Thank you.
Thank you, this is a pleasureand an honor.
So, yeah, you see I'm startling, so I'm lost for words.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I think there's one more thing that we want to also
add to that which is foundingmember, because you know you've
(35:10):
really been.
I think you not only exude thesort of qualities that we want
to make sure that we it's funny,martina I've talked about some
roles that we need to open upand I think when we talk about
the roles and the team memberswho need to join, your name
comes up being like you knowit's like Lazar.
We just need to get someone likeLazar.
We just need to get someonelike Lazar.
So I think it's always socritical and so important when
you're building a team like thisand you also have limited funds
(35:30):
.
we need to be getting to a seedround of, you know, a pre-seed
round of two or three million,or getting to a seed round at
some point of four or fivemillion that, like right now,
(35:52):
we're still like you know, it'sstill little bits of resources,
and so it's always a key thatwhoever sort of comes into the
fold, you know, has that samesort of and I, you know, I can
tell when you're it feels likeyou're always kind of thinking
about it and pushing new thingsand trying to push the app on
(36:13):
its own without being asked, andyou're always so proactive and
sort of figuring out where wecan take it and those sort of
things.
And I think that's it's not,it's not something that I think
in a bigger company that is sortof hailed as, like you know,
different and and and stand out,but in a startup, when you're
(36:36):
really trying to push thingsforward past bigger companies
that have, you know, biggerbudgets and bigger teams, it's,
it's a necessity, and and.
So I think you know, I thinkit's it's only fitting that you
also have a title of foundingmember.
You know, and, and the apps areyours, the apps are your, your
(36:58):
babies.
So, um, um, so yeah, we'reexcited that you're, you're,
you're on the team and and andwith us on the journey, um, as a
, as a mobile development leadand as a founding member, thank
you.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
uh, thank you for all these kind words, but I would
just want to say that, uh, it'sjust easy to work with you guys,
and it's a pleasure to workwith you guys, so that's what
makes me better.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Because of the GIFs.
Right, Really, it's all theSlack GIFs and all the
shenanigans.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And trash talks, and trash talks.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Exactly Nice.
Well, I would say I think it's,you know, it's.
It's fun to start off this yearin such high, high expectations
and high hopes and and andthings like that.
I will say that we should alsobrace for what will be a fairly
difficult year, going to havelots of team members come and go
(38:13):
.
We're going to have and that'sgreat.
I don't think it should besomething that we should be
thinking about that as a likeyou know, how do we keep our
spirits high or how do we sortof, how do we make it through
this?
Like this should be theexpectation.
We will have lots of peoplecome and go because we're going
to be trying lots of people out.
(38:35):
We're going to be essentiallylike recruiting and trialing
lots of people to see if theyfit, you know, in the team, and
that should be the expectation,because we only want to make
sure that we're bringing peoplein and that people are coming on
the ride with us, um, if theykind of fit, you know, I think.
(39:00):
I think having the skill sets isgoing to be important, but most
important for me is that Ithink just the vibe and the what
they bring to the team and theculture and the culture is both
respectful but also the sort offun and optimistic and we're not
adding people to the team thatare sort of pessimistic in the
(39:25):
way of like, oh, I don't know ifthis is going to work, or you
know why are we trying this orwhatever?
But really that like thatfeeling of trying everything and
everything is possible and Idon't know, so let's see.
And, just like you know,iterating with us, but also in
(39:46):
that sort of fun and pushing us.
I love this idea of Noah Kagan,who founded AppSumo and who had
worked with Mark Zuckerberg,really had this great email that
he wrote about Mark and hisphilosophies and one of the
things that he had said is thathe wanted to only hire people
(40:07):
that he would feel comfortablewanting to work for.
So if we hire, even if it's ajunior QA person or Lazar, if we
were to hire somebody as anadditional mobile developer to
work with you that you wouldalmost want to work for them,
(40:28):
that you would be happy workingfor them, because they're also
just pushing you and you'relearning stuff from them.
And I think we've got to makesure that we're we're thinking
about it in that sense and thatwe're never really bringing
someone onto the team who is um,oh, my, my let'll see.
(40:48):
Camera decided to.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
But that was the same thing I was telling Lazar in
our 101 this morning.
So I mean product, we are set,we all believe in product, but
people are what makes even theproduct ship on the next level.
So the excitement when you opena laptop and have huddles or
something to collaborate withpeople, that's something that we
(41:12):
strive for and want to seeother people that we bring on.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, and not, I think, also not having people
who sort of ask what's next,what should I work on next, or
or how should we solve this?
I think it's the.
It should be the opposite.
It is I'm already one stepahead of you.
It should be the opposite.
It is I'm already one stepahead of you and I'm telling you
how this is.
I'm like I've already figuredit out.
I've already done my homeworkand I've already figured it out
(41:38):
and I've already told you howthis should be.
You know, and those sorts ofthings, I think, are the only
way that we're going to stayahead of of being able, like you
, like you said, of being ableto ship so quick and so fast, is
not have anybody sort ofhanging around, you know,
wondering either what's next orasking us, but sort of almost
(41:58):
staying ahead of all of us andwe're all sort of in a good way
competing for seeing how fast wecan sort of like stay ahead of
the curve, you know, and andthings like that.
So, um, and we're gonna have upsome ups and downs, the product
hunt stuff.
I think we should figure outhow to also, you know, keep that
(42:21):
level of like drive um and and,but also stay authentically
connect.
I want to make sure that we'reall sort stay authentically
connected.
I want to make sure that we'reall sort of authentically
connected to the users that areusing this.
So, while I don't want to weighus all down with, like
answering tickets and those sortof things, I want to make sure
(42:43):
that we also are not so focusedin linear, now that we're away
from Jira, that we're so focusedin linear that we're just
chewing through stuff, and a lotof times what happens is you
sort of go heads down and you'rejust kind of focused on stuff
like this so much that you getin this like kind of bubble of
(43:05):
what you think is right that wewere also sort of tapped into
the users, and so I think itwould be also good and not to be
prescriptive, but we shouldalso figure out how each one of
us maybe it's once a weekinterviews a user you know, or
or same for you as ours.
(43:26):
Like is, find a mobile user youknow, find our, our, our sort of
best iOS or Android user andand reach out to them on on
intercom and be like hey, I wantto pick your brain for 20
minutes.
Do you've got time to talk?
You know, we'll give you a giftcard or something and just ask,
like, what about this?
Or what's the most, what's the,what's the parts that are the
(43:47):
worst and how do we fix it?
And like and like trying tostay really, really connected,
um, to the people that are usingit and listening to those
things, and and finding goodways to get that feedback,
because we don't want to stay inour own little bubble about
what we think is interesting.
Um, we want to sort of makesure we're staying like
hyper-connected to the peoplewho are using it.
(44:08):
So we should stayinghyper-connected to the people
who are using it.
So we should figure out somegood ways to integrate that into
our flow to stay out of our ownmatrix.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
That's for sure.
I think I told you that on ourfirst Building Stackless podcast
when you asked me like, in thefuture, what I aspire for is
that's something that I wouldlike for us to never lose that
listening to the end user.
I mean, the users are what weare building for, so that should
always be our focus, you know,to make it better for the users,
(44:39):
not for ourselves.
I mean, maybe I would use somefeature, but if 200,000 users
would not use it, then it'spretty obvious.
So, yeah, I agree, cool,amazing would not use it?
Then it's pretty obvious.
So, yeah, I agree cool, amazing.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, here's to a an amazing 2025, and I think we
should do this once a month.
Um, maybe at the very beginningof a month, let's just sort of
look back and see what we'veaccomplished, you know, based on
what we thought was going tohappen, but also like what we've
, what we've done in theprevious month and where we're
headed um, so we can kind of gutcheck and check in on and and
(45:14):
as fast as we move a month islike forever.
So uh it'll be.
It'll be amazing to see um sortof you know, month after month.
So we'll have to do this againsoon.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Yeah, oh my gosh and I'm gonna have to go google I
know what the heck.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Uh, I'll have to go talk to somebody about this.
Anyways, um, cool, and any lastwords just look out for us in
2025.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I guess that's out because we're coming we're
coming for you yeah.
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