The Jam Team! - Building Communities with Storytelling and Innovation

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Kyle Hudson, Ivanha, and Ian discuss their personal experiences, the evolution of their respective companies, Jam and Stacklist, and the challenges and joys of remote work. They delve into marketing strategies, community building, and the importance of storytelling in content creation. The discussion highlights the significance of creating a vibrant company culture, the role of technology in enhancing productivity, and the need for authentic engagement with users. The conversation wraps up with insights on how to effectively share knowledge and foster connections within their communities.

Episode Transcript

Ivanha Paz (00:00):
And so you sort of forget a little bit of what
marketing actually is, which isart and it's craft and it's joy.

Ian McClanan (00:07):
Who are the domain experts and how do we get their
domain of expertise?
As a knowledge gap that'ssolved through Stacklist.

Kyle Hudson (00:15):
Where does the jam vibe come from, hi Hello.

Ivanha Paz (00:23):
How are you?

Kyle Hudson (00:24):
Doing good.
How's the day?

Ivanha Paz (00:28):
good, okay, tell me the truth.
Can you hear me breathe in mymicrophone?

Kyle Hudson (00:37):
do you?
Hear it if you do like, if youdo the pronounced sniffy, then
then I can't but like just sitfor a second, I don't hear it.
But if you're doing the like,do I have a stuffy nose thing?
Then I get that, I can hearI've never had a mic before.

Ivanha Paz (00:54):
This is like this.
Oh so I don't know where to putit?

Kyle Hudson (00:59):
are we breaking this mic in?
Is this like yeah, well, Ibroke it.

Ivanha Paz (01:03):
Tried to break it in yesterday, uh, and what
happened was ian was like.
I can hear you breathing wait,okay.

Kyle Hudson (01:12):
So when ian comes on, let's, let's both, let's
both like, just sniff, likeevery now and then and just see
if, like, if, if he notices, um,how you doing good good, I told
you it's my son's birthday,like I don't know.
Oh, that's right happy birthday, you can.

(01:34):
You can send him a clip of mesinging amazing and it's uh.

Ivanha Paz (01:39):
Two is that right two, two, two years, that's
amazing it's so fast.
He's almost ready for college.

Kyle Hudson (01:48):
Yeah, I know, I've got a four-year-old that's going
on 14.
What did he say?
The other day we sat and playedan Xbox racing game and he was
like good race, bro.
I was like wait a second.
What do you mean, bro?
Just don't, don't't, don't,let's, let's, don't get into.
Uh, yeah, that's you don't needto go around calling everyone

(02:10):
bro but it sounds funny when hesays it, but like it's so funny,
it just I stubbed my toe orlike whatever it was.

Ivanha Paz (02:17):
Something happened that caused me to say a swear
word loudly.
And he's in the stage wherehe's repeating everything and I
had and I haven't had to thinkabout this so much yet because
he's he's been so little rightlike I'm listening to, to songs
that swear, and I'm swearinglike I've never really thought
about it.
He's a baby totally and now Iwas like shit.

(02:38):
He was like behind me, like oh,amazing.

Kyle Hudson (02:44):
Yeah, uh, I I heard something here.
Yeah, william, or my oldest iseight, hasn't, hasn't started
like repeating, like swear words, but but I did hear in the
other the other day, likeplaying legos with matthew,
who's the the younger brother,and william was like, oh man, I
really screwed that up and likeit just felt like that's sort of

(03:06):
like okay, are you stressed out?

Ivanha Paz (03:09):
Like is the job?
Like too much, totally yeah.

Kyle Hudson (03:14):
Oh my gosh, funny, funny boys.
Well, that's amazing.
When are you doing party stuff?

Ivanha Paz (03:19):
Party stuff today actually.

Kyle Hudson (03:21):
Oh, wow, yeah.

Ivanha Paz (03:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's party.

Kyle Hudson (03:25):
Free starts at five nice oh and it ends at seven oh
yeah, we just had uh williamturned eight and we had 10 of
his friends over, three boys andseven girls how many do you
have?

Ivanha Paz (03:45):
I keep on here.
There's like two, three so far.

Kyle Hudson (03:47):
Oh, okay well yeah, just do it.
Yeah, two, williams eight andmatthews four, um, and so, uh,
william had 10, 10 friends overand three boys and seven girls.
And god, the boys like, oh mygosh, I just like every other
poop joke, and you know what Imean.
And they're like all, like,they're all in every, every

(04:09):
single kids and PJs, and they'reall like doing a movie.
They were watching the wildrobot and, of course, it felt
like the boys were on the backrow.
These two, two speaker, yeah,totally All bro.
And then, like these two sweetgirls would come in and go, the
boys are throwing popcorn, and Iall bro.
And then, like these two sweetgirls would come in and go, the
boys are throwing popcorn, and Iwould go in there, listen.
But I mean, I'm like, no,listen, no popcorn, don't jump

(04:30):
on the couch, you know.
and and then, of course, abouthalfway through the movie, they
all go out to my son's room andyou can just hear him jumping
off the second like um oh no thebunk bed and I'm like, can we
please don't jump off the bunkyou know what I mean it just
felt like a and I, of course,like I, I'm an empath that sort
of feels and hears and takes inall the signals from all the

(04:52):
things.
So I'm just, I'm just sort oflike, as everyone's leaving, my
wife's like, okay, let's just.
Let's just take a minute.

Ivanha Paz (05:02):
Ian's in the way.
Do you see Ian?
He's told me he ends in the way.
Do you see ian?
He's telling me he's in thewaiting room.

Kyle Hudson (05:05):
Yeah, I just, I don't know where ian.
Let's see if.
Oh, there he is.
It didn't get it.
Didn't give me a notification.
Riverside, I gotta talk to youabout that.
Can't leave ian in the waitingroom no worries, no worries,
kyle silly hi thanks for thanksfor having me wait, can you hear

(05:29):
us sniffing?
Can you hear us?

Ivanha Paz (05:34):
I was telling Kyle how I don't know where to put my
mic.

Ian McClanan (05:37):
Oh, was it the gain, the gain thing the
breathing and the mics.

Ivanha Paz (05:41):
So, like the first thing I did when I joined, I was
like Kyle, can you hear this?
It was like when you do apronounced sniff, then yes, I
can.

Kyle Hudson (05:50):
I can hear it um how are you?

Ivanha Paz (05:53):
how's it going?

Kyle Hudson (05:54):
uh, your, your, your sound sounds so good yeah
oh, thank you.

Ian McClanan (05:58):
Well, let me know if you can hear me breathing too
.
I don't know if I also havethese, these gain problems, but
no, but no, I'm good.
I like, uh, yeah, right, likethursday is crunch time in the
jam week and so um, so yeahwhat's crunch time mean?

Kyle Hudson (06:15):
oh, it's just like what's crunch time in this in in
jam land.

Ian McClanan (06:18):
So jam world.
We post 7 am every friday,dilly jam.
Of course we're the same typeof you.
You know we're in the same samegame here um building.

Kyle Hudson (06:28):
I'm talking about building stack list yeah and so.

Ian McClanan (06:32):
So what it looks like so what it looks like here,
um, on thursday, is that we'rewe're prepping, you know, we're
sharing in drafts, we'reprepping clips and all this, all
this sort of thing and so, um.
So in my world looks like a lotof editing, a lot of sharing.
Sharing drafts, a lot of likethumbnails, like this is
something I've started to care abit about more and just to put
more attention to, and so I'mgoing through a whole bunch of
these, you know, tying togetherall these different tools,

(06:54):
making different stuff andproposing stuff.

Kyle Hudson (06:56):
So yeah, oh my gosh , that's the, that's the Mr
Beast philosophy right Of, justlike getting those thumbnails
and and titles like just right,so that it catches.

Ivanha Paz (07:07):
Yeah, I mean it's a whole thing right in youtube.

Kyle Hudson (07:09):
It's like the most important thing I think we're
realizing, like the, the yeahwhen we like think through, to
stand out in just like half asecond, that's we haven't.
Obviously.
We're just like we're in theplace where we're more about
just making sure that we areposting something.
So there's like a heartbeat tothings and that we're like we're
testing out a few memes're moreabout just making sure that we
are posting something.
So there's like a heartbeat tothings and that we're like we're
testing out a few memes andthings like that, but we haven't
gotten to a place where we'vewe've started in a refinement

(07:31):
yet, but amazing.
Well, I like, before we diveinto this, thank you both for
taking time during, especiallyduring crunch time, to to of
course kyle, of course, but Imean, I just so.
I just want to start off bysaying like, this journey is so

(07:51):
fun and interesting, what was it?
I went to one of my firstevents in new york and I met
some um, uh, someone from, uh,union square ventures.
And then how did this?
How do how do we get?
So?
This is the here's the thread.
I met someone from union squareventures and we talked about
stack list and then I startedlooking into union square
ventures and I looked into, youknow who union square?

(08:13):
had had invested in and Istarted going through a
portfolio and then I stumble onjam, I install jam and then I'm
like martina, our cto.
I'm like you've got to use jam,and now I've got got this thing
I got to post today on X, bythe way, which is basically us
in Slack we're moving from Jirato Linear, and one of Martina's
first questions was does itintegrate with Jam?

(08:33):
And so I sent her a screenshotof the Linear integration.

Ivanha Paz (08:41):
She was like okay, good, so this is what our uh cto
approved, uh the first timethat we heard about stacklist is
well, due to a contest rightlike, and we had that's right so
that's how we sort of likeheard about you and met you and

(09:03):
I remember like the first thingI thought, without like ever
having seen StackList nocontracts about it I just saw
like Kyle from StackList and Iwas so happy that that was the
winner, because StackList issuch a cool name.
This is going to be a coolcompany to have a cool name, so
that's awesome.

Kyle Hudson (09:20):
Amazing.
Well, thank you, that's right,though we actually first sort of
interacted because, ian, youread my name to the public and
said the winner, which wasamazing, by the way.
I I got to go see zuck um give atalk, which was amazing.
But I just love how it feelslike our kind of um uh, both

(09:44):
cultures and product and likethe intersections are so
interesting, even though you allare sort of you know maybe.
Let's say I'm in, we're in likesixth or seventh grade and you
guys are in high school and areplaying like the varsity sports
and we're like oh my gosh, butit's just so cool to see like

(10:07):
the, the evolution and to hearthe stories and and but, to also
really interact with you allbecause I just love you know the
, the culture and the, the vibethat that jam has.
I would love, I would love toknow y'all's POV on on from a
jam perspective, like how, howand where does that, where does
the jam vibe come from?

Ivanha Paz (10:28):
honestly, I think, like if you my really my real
honest answer, I think it comesa lot from, from the jam
founders like that's, that'swhere I think, like the, the
vibes start right and that their, their personalities really
sort of influence the, the, thestartup, and and what we want to
do and how we are.
So like that's the biggestplace and then, like you know,

(10:51):
marketing.

Kyle Hudson (10:53):
Yeah, yeah, no, but I'm not even talking from a
marketing Like.
There's a difference between,like, a company having a face
that sort of seems fun.
But really like you two, both.
I mean I know Danny's, becauseDanny's was the most fun episode
to ever like record, becauseyou can even see, even from,
like even Danny sort of emulatesand sort of brings forward even

(11:14):
through the camera.
Like it's one of those wheremost interviews that I've got on
we sort of talk like this andwe go, oh, that's so interesting
or whatever.
But Danny's, we were just likecutting up, and you know what I
mean.
Like it just sort of but andbut but you both, I think.
I think it's so different tohave one person that sort of
stands out in that way.
But you both have such a greatenergy and and and a vibe that
sort of continues to like buildupon that, like that jamness, um

(11:41):
, which is amazing, so, um, Ilove it and and and I'm
interested to know how much uhlike within the company.
From a remote perspective, itkind of feels like that too yeah
, what do you mean?
like, just from like, from a,from an all I I on our podcast
we also danny and I talked aboutlike I told.

(12:02):
I told her she should go onslack and say that she said that
she's mandating a uh, a returnto office policy for everyone
immediately.
Um, but like, but at that pointthere was no office, but like
from a remote, from a remotecompany perspective, like how
you sort of keep the, how do youkeep kind of the, the energy
and and the vibe, eveninternally, from a remote

(12:24):
perspective.

Ian McClanan (12:27):
Yeah, well, I think one thing for me that was
new with Jam, versus being allremote, versus before I was
primarily in office and withthis I think that our like how
we're communicating on Slack andlike all the just the
expectations around the level ofcommunication and the is
different than I've experiencedin the past and so with that
it's like like there's like very, very proactive, very um,

(12:48):
caught like everyone, likechiming in is something that's
been new to me and it'ssomething that I think really
speaks to the yeah, like speaksto the cultural like just what
the norm is at jam and um andyeah, and I think that the like,
also the, this like positivityand this like sort of this uh
brand, uh tone, I think alsocomes through actually through

(13:09):
the product as well, like, likewith the attention to design in
it, like I could imagine aversion of this product, of our
product, that would be very um,like, with different founders,
in a different culture, would bejust like a totally different
right, like a linear style,super, totally minimalist.
We are.
We are about speed andefficiency and I think it's a
very intentional utility.

(13:29):
It's like utility first, that'sthe thing you can, you know,
versus like having the thestrawberry jam kind of feel is
that exactly, and so I thinkthat that was a like, that's a
choice that is also reflected inthe culture but also comes
through, actually the like likethrough the product as well, and
it's a cool.
It's cool to see that showitself in both places.

Ivanha Paz (13:48):
Yeah.

Ian McClanan (13:49):
Nice yeah.

Ivanha Paz (13:51):
I think there's a few things I've noticed that Jam
does.
That, I think, work well forremote that I wasn't super used
to Like.
It's like a little different.
Sort of little likeidiosyncrasies, for example,
like at Jam.
Uh, sort of little likeidiosyncrasies, for example,
like at jam, nobody's going toshy away from like, just like
huddling you, you know, if it'slike a 30 second thing, like you
know what, like I'm just goingto call you, and so it makes you

(14:12):
feel a little bit closerbecause there's no like can you
talk, can we schedule a zoom,can we net?
So things right away you canjust huddle or or like.
For example, danny, she lovesto send like voice notes as
feedback I do too.

Kyle Hudson (14:27):
It's so.
It's so good to be able to justlike, instead of typing it out,
and free form a little bit.
You get that extra littlecontext and like emotion and
other stuff.

Ivanha Paz (14:34):
It's so good yeah, and like the tone of it and
everything.
It's like I think there'sdefinitely some drawbacks to
remote work which you have toconsciously try to work around,
and those are some of the waysthat that we do.
And then, when we have offsites, that definitely like, you
can definitely feel like thosethree or four days like the
boost.
And well, I always say, likethe boost in like work

(14:55):
productivity, it's like wow, butthe boost, it like it's off,
like, but like the boost, howmuch you understand the company,
what's happening, everybodyelse around you, uh, is so
amazing, like really, it's um,so like that combination of like
going to off sites, takingadvantage and then doing all

(15:17):
those little things like slack,huddles what is the um?

Kyle Hudson (15:20):
what is?
I'd love to hear both ofy'all's journeys from a jam
perspective, like when?
When did you join?
At what stage, and and and kindof what have you seen through
the evolution?

Ivanha Paz (15:29):
Ian, do you want to tell them?

Ian McClanan (15:32):
Well, yeah, I guess we we both started about a
year and a little in a fewmonths ago, and what's funny is
that we were we actually startedlike within two days of each
other, and this is amazing.
Yeah and oh.
This is amazing.
Yeah and so, um.
So, while while ivana's jobtitle is the founding marketer,
I will let the record show thatI was a day before ivana oh yeah

(15:59):
, no, but, but um, but yeah.
So we both started um at Jamaround the same time.
There's, like in the productand company story, like after we
had like these tell-all signsof a product market fit, and
like starting to grow, and it'dbe like this is the time for
more marketing, just focus as acompany.
Like this is when we bothjoined.
And for me, I actually heardabout the job through the

(16:23):
Lenny's Podcast community Slackchannel and it was because I was
a big fan of Lenny's before.
For me, I think it's myfavorite product podcast and the
preeminent example of what agreat B2B podcast looks like.
And so I was in that communitywhen I saw this job post and I
think that was a early signalthat this we were going to be

(16:45):
aligned in terms of what oursort of content visions were
going to look like.
And so for me, like I'd neverbeen, like I'm current, so I'm,
my job title is creator, butbeforehand I'd never been.
I'd never been a creator.
Like I was a product marketerbefore, and for me, with the,

(17:05):
what this looked like was I wasmaking a lot of these demo
videos of our, of our tool.
Before um I still I was lookingback.
It's still live the how chocoworks.
The video I made before in,before in the last, in the last
role and it's funny because Iwas the um I've made this
transition between I was likethe, the.
We did it in a scrappy way.
I was the scrappy sort ofnarrator, internal narrator, so
we didn't hire someone else todo it.
I was like I'm not payingsomeone, I'm not paying someone

(17:25):
to do a voiceover when I coulddo a damn good job myself, um,
and so I did the, so I did the,the voiceover for that.
And that was the start of it.
And I was like, oh, I wasmaking all this stuff for the
sales team and I was like, oh, Ilike this thing.
And so when I was I, I was inberlin for this time and then I
decided I wanted to move back tothe us and so I, um, when I was
looking for my next like,looking for the next role, I

(17:46):
said this oh, create a role at astartup, like what is this?
And so that's what's reallytaking me down, this sort of
like for me in my careergenerally, like, I see it as
like, I move towards this sortof like product educator type,
uh, role and function, andthat's the thing that's what's
really been exciting to me is,like these skills All this
editing has been new for meBefore.

(18:07):
I always came at it from amarketing side.
I was briefing different peopleon the team about how we do
stuff like this, but now I findmyself in the middle of it,
right, learning how to actuallydo this skill set and try to do
it well.

Kyle Hudson (18:22):
Well, you're doing amazingly and I will say, you
know, with the way that, the waythat I see jam sort of out and
about it, doesn't it?
It's doing its job and that itdoesn't feel like marketing.
Um, because I think there'sthis like, if you think about,
when I think about someone thatis like a founder, like company,
that that maybe loves productand just sort of like talks

(18:42):
about product features and sortof put stuff out there, and then
also there's the marketingwhich is like trying to sell the
sort of the benefits, and thenthat gray space in the middle.
You know, I think that's whereyou know we're seeing so many
more people living and breathingand sort of in that sort of.
You know, is what?
What does this mean?
It's blending the sort ofculture and features and

(19:04):
benefits and and being able tosort of communicate that also in
an authentic way and not in a,when I think about sort of old
school advertising right, madmen, kind of just there's a
poster and it's got a benefitthat sort of catches, you're
gonna, you know, you're gonnalose weight or you're gonna like
whatever you know, versus likeseeing the stuff, that stuff
that you guys do on showing thefeatures and the funny stuff and

(19:27):
showing the product demo videosand things like that.
It feels so authentic that youcan almost like just feel
yourself using it or what it'sgoing to be like to sort of have
it in your team.

Ivanha Paz (19:38):
Oh, thank you.
The thing about like the jamaudience that kind of makes this
easy, like not, I mean of makesthis easy, like not.
I mean it's not easy, but Imean it's just.
It like makes so much sense,right, it's because the gem
audience is just like peoplebuilding other products, right.
So it's like of it's like wehave so much to talk about, like
with each other, you know.

(19:59):
So it's like so easy to sort of, like, you know, make a video
about this feature that we'relaunching, or make this, and
then do it from this perspectiveof like let me show you how we
built it or the challenges thatwe came up against.
And it's not like because it'slike what I mean.
What I mean to say is that forus, it's like a fun conversation
to have, or a fun video to make, and for the people we hope,

(20:22):
right, like for the gemcommunity, it's also just like
interesting.

Kyle Hudson (20:27):
Yeah.

Ivanha Paz (20:27):
And at the same time , like, obviously right, like
you're showing the product,you're letting them know what it
can do, but you're doing it inthis way.
That is just kind of more funfor everybody who likes to build
software.

Kyle Hudson (20:37):
Totally, and what would you say from a company
building perspective, like, whatshould you know, martina and I
and the team take away from likefrom your?
You know, from the time thatyou all started over the past
year, what have you kind oflearned in that sort of

(20:58):
marketing and creator space ofkind of what works in terms of
um, because I obviously, youknow, I think people start
companies and then you sort ofyou really start throwing
spaghetti at everything.
Right, you've got like you'vegot like funny stuff and serious
stuff and product feature stuffand you've got memes and you
know what I mean.
Like you're you're really justsort of trying to find what fits
like.
What have you both kind oflearned um from um, from your

(21:19):
your past year at jam, I think,for me, yeah, for me, what I've
seen, I guess the.

Ian McClanan (21:26):
The first question to ask about the, the marketing
and the.
For me, like particularly thecontent that I'm I'm making is,
like, what is the primary?
Uh, like, what's the primarygoal?
Is this, like supposed to be aprimary, like growth driver for
the business, or is thissupposed to be like um, is this
serving a different, a differentfunction?
Like, maybe this would be likeum, you know, making your
product feel like a well-wrappedgift.

(21:46):
You know, like, when someone'sin an onboarding email, right,
and they, they're, they're beingwelcome, right, that's a
different audience.
That's not like you know metelling you and walking through
all the features of of jam andtelling you about everything new
.
Like this is that will berelevant for a different
audience than you making short,like you doing short form
channels and like going 100 onthat and like basically making

(22:09):
videos for people that don'tknow or aren't invested in your
story.
Um, right and so, like usmaking the building jam podcast
like this.
This, for example, is a um.
Like this is a, a play over,it's a long-term play and and
we're hoping that we really makethis place where we've
documented our journey and it'sand it's providing helpful.
It's providing helpful insightsand stuff, but it's also um,

(22:30):
it's a longer term um, also likevision and part of something
that we're building and so, um.
So I think, for me, like, uh,like after you define what these
things are, we, we have dabbledand we keep like going down
experiments in each of thesesorts of realms and like, for us
, what it looked like at onepoint was this, like we called
it, the owl experiment, wherebasically, I was making I was

(22:51):
going on these one day sprints,where I was like I'm going to
make a engaging video that's notabout jam, about something that
our audience, like our audience, would be interested in.
I'm going to do that every day.
For however long it was it waslike a month and it was like,
literally, what matters is justgetting better at doing this and
and that, and at the end ofthat experiment, we're like, wow

(23:11):
, okay, well, these videosaren't particularly working well
in terms of driving new peopleto the product.
Um, what if this effort wasinstead more focused on making
all these things that we'redoing, like all these uh, like,
uh, focused on these, theseother the, these other channels
and other places?
And so that was an example of auh, I don't know a time where,

(23:33):
like us clarifying, like I don'tknow, we've dabbled in having
these different goals anddifferent focuses as a team.
Um, but knowing where, like howyou primarily are playing into
that, like I could see for foryou all, like having clearly the
icp telling you how they'reusing stacklist every day to
organize restaurants, toorganize all like their the book
, their favorite books, likeliterally hearing from the icp

(23:55):
every single day, feels likesomething that is like could
help you reach a larger audience.
And then there's this otherthing of like oh like.
Is this onboarding?
Like how are we building outthe best and most inviting and
great onboarding flow too, whichis sort of a different goal of
the content?

Kyle Hudson (24:10):
Yeah, no, that's great.
Yeah, I thought of what youguys said.

Ivanha Paz (24:13):
I think like the biggest thing that I've learned
at jam is gonna sound a littlebit weird, but I was thinking
about it when you said.
I was like what am I gonna say?
But like the truth of, I thinkthe biggest thing I've learned
like this past year is kind oflike the.
The definition that I used tohave of marketing has changed
and what I think that marketingis has changed.
Um, because I most of myexperience, marketing software

(24:36):
has been like at sales ledcompanies, so marketing at a
sales let's up for company iscompletely different ballgame
and and so you sort of forget alittle bit of like what
marketing actually is, um, whichis art and it's craft and it's
joy and um, that's what I got todo a jam like every day, which

(24:59):
is like awesome and but alsolike really, really, really
challenging, like so much harderthan I thought, like writing a
tweet, like a two line tweet.
I could spend honestly, liketwo hours going back and forth
and rethinking it and no, andjust like trying to get it just
right because it's art andthat's what I think marketing

(25:19):
should be, and rethinking it andknow, and just like trying to
get it just right because it'sart and and that's what I I
think marketing should be yeah,no, totally I think it.

Kyle Hudson (25:25):
I think it's so different from I was at a
software startup that that wasprimarily b2b and it was a
sales-led company.
It really felt like one ofthose like what, how much are
you going to save me?
How much quicker and faster andbetter is this than the
alternative?
And if you can prove that, andI trust you, I'll buy your thing
.
And so like everything is sortof so focused and tactical on

(25:47):
that that it becomes easy tojust basically refine that
message so different to sit downand sort of write who are we?

Ivanha Paz (25:55):
right.
What do we like and like why?

Kyle Hudson (25:59):
why do we care?
Oh, why do you care?
Or where are we headed?
And do you want to come alongwith the journey?
Like it's, it's, you're, you'recrafting that sort of you
almost imagine there's a jamstory, like a jam movie, right,
that you're sort of craftinglike page by page every day and
and you're writing that storyand everyone looks at each other
every day and goes like what'snext, what's the next line, like

(26:21):
you know, and it's sort of likedo you know the line?
Do you?
Is this one?
It's OK.

Ivanha Paz (26:26):
But that's exactly like you and Stacklist, it's
like the same thing.

Kyle Hudson (26:31):
Right, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, we, basically we, Ijust had a.
This week is so different.
We first started and I lookback at the at the original
pitch deck and it was a socialbookmarking tool, right.
So that was super useful tojust save your stuff and maybe
you can send it to a friend orwhatever it is.
And what we've and what I'vecome to realize so much over the
past like even two weeks, andso many different good

(26:52):
conversations with advisors andthings like that is what's
missing in the world is a moreculturally relevant, modern
pinterest.
But that is sort of theoperating system for links in
your life but also just makes iteasy to share your favorite
stuff with other people.
And that evolution of how, that, how you get there, and has

(27:12):
been less about how.
Yeah, it's iterating every dayover every line, as you know, in
the script and and sort of like, and thinking about it and
scribbling it out and writing itagain and whatever it is.
And it's so weird to thinkabout how you imagine even
businesses in the past, like,but you write a business plan,

(27:33):
right, and you go do that plan,hey, and you have, like you know
, you have sales-led advertising.
It's pretty straightforward,it's all.
It's all sort of very um it'slike it's all very
straightforward and direct, yeahbut like also kind of like.

Ivanha Paz (27:48):
I mean, there's some , some marketing teams that
excel at this and they do itwith joy and they make it into
an art, but that I'm sure, uh,like I.
I mean I think, for example,gong Gong is really good at this
.
I admire them, but most of thetime, like it's not even that
effective Like, because it'slike sort of you're based on

(28:09):
like a lot of volume, a lot ofsort of like measuring and
tracking and seeing like okay,if we get a 10% conversion rate,
that means we need this manypeople to down this, this and
that, and so it's like I thinkhard as a marketer in that
position, and I'm sure liketalented marketers can
definitely go ahead and talk tousers and find out and do some

(28:32):
awesome marketing anyway, butyou're far away from users in
that situation.
Yeah, and PLG, like Gamma'sproduct-led, and so is Stacklist
you can just go sign up and sothat vibe is like as a marketer
puts you in a position to justlike be talking to people every
day and, without you evenrealizing it, you're building

(28:54):
community and it's not even onpurpose.

Kyle Hudson (28:56):
And you're coexisting in a very close space
to the people who are using itright, which makes you better
and more intuitive on how youcan make it better and
communicate to them, versus, inmy mind, if we just sit up and
sync up something really catchyor pithy and then put it out
there and some people buy.
You could say that's a success,but I think it's also.

(29:17):
You can have companies that dothat, but for us, what we're
finding interesting is when wetalk to creators.
We'll talk to a creator has,you know, quarter million
followers and say hey, we'd loveto build you out a profile and
basically curate all yourfavorite stuff and put it on
your profile.
If we did that, would youswitch your current LinkedIn

(29:38):
profile?
And they're like yeah, yeah,yeah, totally.
Like there is no sort of likeI'm really embedded in that
community and I've been withthem for a while and like I kind
of work with them to make theproduct better.
They're like no, sounds good,I'll save six bucks a month.
Like there's no, there's noloyalty or or community or sort
of story between the, the user,and um and I I find that

(30:01):
interesting um having havingthat sort of very like um binary
you either use it or you don'tsort of relationship with with
users yeah, yeah, I wonder howyou think about this kyle.

Ivanha Paz (30:13):
Like this is happening a little bit, um in
the jam world, which is like atfirst it was like very clear,
right, like jam community ofusers, um, but now it's like a
little bit like confusing aboutlike who's our community?
How do we make sure that all ofour users are in it?
Um, there's a lot of people whoare like probably are not jam

(30:34):
users, but they're part of thecommunity anyway.
Like you know, they'retechnical and they're awesome.
Like so how do you like blendthose two in a way that makes
sense?
And at the end of the communityanyway, like you know, they're
technical and they're awesome.
Like so how do you like blendthose two in a way that makes
sense and at the end of the day,you know, business-wise makes
sense, like I mean, you want to.

Kyle Hudson (30:47):
I I think it's about having you know it's funny
we've actually gone through aprocess over the past two weeks
of setting up a really good andthis is like shout out to lexi
for setting up our discord but areally really good sort of well
structured discord that we'regoing to open up soon and I've
seen I went through I don't knowhow much either of you went
through sort of the the like theearly crypto boom over the past

(31:11):
like couple of years when it'ssort of like everybody was sort
of started talking aboutEthereum and stuff like that and
but I was like I was in it, Iwas swimming in the and
everybody lived in discordsright, and you basically like
you came in and they had gamesand you sort of checked in and
you got status and points andand you almost like kind of felt
like you were oh, hey, so andso and hey so and so, and I you

(31:32):
know what I mean Like you startlike and that's how basically
the because a lot of cryptoprojects were were built off of
the hundred percent.
I mean, some of them had someutility, but most of them, like
primarily, were a story thatstarted from almost nothing into
just this sort of realitydistortion field.
And then everyone in there issort of saying like oh, I like

(31:55):
this, and Discord was the oneplace where you could sort of
create this community, togetherwith voice and video and games
and chat and links and all thesesort of things.
And I found it interesting howmuch the crypto community and
NFTs like relied on Discord tosort of create these little
bubbles where people could comein, kind of like the saloon or

(32:16):
the watering hole where you justkind of popped in and you were
like, hey everybody, what'sgoing on?
Like here's this thing I did,or you know, I bought this or I
sold this.
This is what I did and I reallyliked watching that and seeing
how that was created, becauseyou think about like how
different that is from.
I mean, nike's a great brand,but I'm gonna pick on Nike for a
minute, like the Nike Run Clubor like the apps that they have,

(32:37):
like they're on.
I take that back.
Nike actually has they havelocal groups that run and things
like that, but I don't interactwith those groups.
I primarily just have kind oflike the groups that are on my
phone in an app, but it doesn'tfeel like anything that I'm sort
of actively a part of from alike chat, sharing feedback,
like that.
I'm kind of like in it, and Ithink what's really interesting

(32:58):
is creating something like that,where people can just pop in
and give feedback or like or gethelp or or share a win that you
could share on social or likeand and sort of creating a bit
of that like, come dive intothis with us and then also
extending upon that, how abouthaving in there you could have a
jam betas group right, whenit's sort of like hey, we're

(33:21):
going to drop this thing, likethe AI feature that I tried.

Ivanha Paz (33:25):
You're in the beta group.

Kyle Hudson (33:27):
I am in the beta group, no, but I also what's
really interesting imaginehaving a beta chat group where
you also had people sort of likecontinually going like hey, I
tried the thing and here's myloom feedback and like, and
they're talking and what you'redoing is kind of like it's it's
very much the developer githubcommunity right, where it's
everybody's kind of in there andopen source projects and you're
trying and you're sort ofbuilding together.
I think creates that communitythat you feel like you are

(33:51):
helping build jam, even thoughyou're not like on the payroll,
um, which, especially if it's abrand and a product that you
love, that can be, that can be,you know, um can feel, uh, like
a little micro community thatyou're part of in your life um,

(34:19):
prioritize this in their day.

Ian McClanan (34:20):
Right, there's a, there's so much like, so many
things, right, you could bedoing participating in a, in a,
um, a different company's uh,private community, like, what is
what is it like?
What is this allow, like,allowing for you?
Or like, and I think about forme, like the things that I like.
One recent example was the therunway 48 hour ai generated film
competition, and the reason,the reason I went, went in that

(34:42):
discord was I was like I want tomake a kick-ass film, right,
and I don't know how to use thistool to make that film and it's
annoying because I'm in thetool and I'm trying to do the
stuff and I know that by beingin this community, other people
are going to share their tipsand I'm going to figure out how
to do it.
Or I think about another one,like example of it like a video
editor, like, like um descript,for example.

(35:04):
Like I'm using descript all thetime to edit, edit my stuff,
and when I'm in there and I comeup with a bug or something
that's blocking me from doing mywork, I want to, I want to
voice it like, like you know,like as as jam as jam.
we're probably like, okay,people are always surfacing all
their errors.
It's maybe like, ah, maybe let'snot do it so loud, but for me

(35:28):
it's funny, my hat changesbecause as I think about the
script, I'm like I'm doing mywork and I want you all to help
me get this fixed, because I'mtrying to do more of my work
Totally to help me get thisfixed because I'm trying to do
more of my work right and so,totally, and so, with jam, it's
like like we want to, like, wewant to make that place such
that when someone feels that,that like frustration perhaps,
or comes across this edge caseor whatever, they can voice this

(35:50):
and then we can actually fix itand help them do their work
right and so.
So, yeah, so there's these,these different ways, right, but
that's also a particular usecase.
There could be another onewhere it's like you know, like
where we, but that's also aparticular use case.
There could be another onewhere it's like you know, like
where we're.
It's playing.
A different use case or adifferent structure, right, I
could see people yeah, totally,that's the first thing that
comes to mind and a lot of timesin those communities.

Kyle Hudson (36:08):
Even if you look at Descript, you know Descript or
like they have, you'll end uphaving leaders sort of
organically pop up and start tohelp those people solve that
thing before you've even gottento them.
And so, like, there are momentswhere, like some of that stuff
can can come up, and I alsothink it's.

(36:29):
You know, one of the things Ialways found fascinating in in
the sort of crypto NFT world wasalso like in discord is when
they were going to launchsomething.
They would put something inthere and have like and be like
hey, we're going to launch thisthing, come help advocate, you
know whatever, and people wouldbasically go out and start
posting and start like doingstuff because they felt like
they were kind of part of it.

(36:50):
And so I think it's interestingtrying to figure out I think
there are some people thatwouldn't get in there, that
wouldn't get in there, but Ithink it's interesting
potentially trying to find alittle beta group of like how
interesting and interested, likecould people sort of come
around?
Not so much that, like you'regonna, it's not going to affect
the bottom line, it's not goingto like it's not going to move

(37:11):
more, but it will.
It would be one of those that.
Are you creating a signal groupright when you're like hey,
we've got an idea and you go tothe signal group and be like
signal group, right where.
You're like, hey, we've got anidea.
And you go to the signal groupand be like what do you think
about this?
And immediately, without goingto run a formal user test with
people you've never sort of that, you do it with people who sort
of understand your journey andyour intention and be like, hey,
can I just get signal on this?
And they're like that's a goodidea.

(37:32):
Or drop a meme and be like whatdo you guys think about this?
first, you know what I mean orwhatever, and just have that
little place where, where, wherepeople could, could kind of
give you signal and stuff.

Ivanha Paz (37:41):
I agree, like we.
I think eventually we will have, like some, some sort of
community platform hub.
Right now it's like untethered,it's like everywhere, but but
like it is there and it would beso good to be able to bring it
into one place.
It's just not not that easylike to just like put up a
discord or or, like you know,set up a section.

(38:02):
Like it needs to.
It needs to be really valuable,and I don't think I know how to
make that valuable yet.

Kyle Hudson (38:10):
I would.
I would challenge that.
If we go back to, if you goback to startup mode of just
being like I don't know, let, Idon't know, let's just try this
and it fails, whatever, we'llshut it down, then you know,
visual has have you guys seenvisual electric?
It's basically like.
It's kind of like a really easy, modern, clean, mid journey
where you can go in and sort ofsay like, hey, I want this.

(38:31):
Like there's a, there's a duckstanding in the middle of the
room, he's wearing a funny hatand he's looking out in the
sunset or whatever, and it'llcome up and then you can like,
tweak it and refine it and makeit 4k and all these sort of
things.
They just sort of popped up onmy radar not not that long ago
and, um, and then, not not longafter that, they popped up
discord and there's only threeor four channels in there, but
they're basically just peoplesharing some of the best art

(38:52):
that they've done.
That art then immediately turnsinto, uh, instagram posts and
then they start sharing thoseinstagram posts and then people
are like, oh my gosh, my stuffgot shared, like, and it wasn't
sort of it didn't have to bethis big structure, it really
was just sort of, because you'regoing to have a certain
percentage of people who arelike I've never used discord.
I'm not really interested inchatting about stuff, but like,

(39:13):
but the people who are you knowwhat I mean might get in and
give you some good feedback, butyou could also be like
experiment done.
You know, not our thing.

Ivanha Paz (39:24):
You're right.
You are right, like nothing isgoing to happen if it doesn't go
well, or maybe it does.
I think what is happening in myheart is like I don't know,
like community is my favoritepart of my job and I'm like
protective of it a little bit,and I think that it's going to
work if we do it right, likefavorite part of my job and I'm
like protective of it a littlebit, and and I and I totally
that it's going to work if we doit right, but it it feels like

(39:47):
right now it's like there's somuch stuff going on that that my
fear is that it becomessomething that, oh, let's just
go experiment lunch and it justsort of stays there forever and
then we don't really it could,it could, totally like.

Kyle Hudson (40:00):
Let me get, let me give you a, really a really
quick example, like it's, almostlike.
So we started thinking aboutthis, especially when we started
looking at um, at gaming.
So we've got two pro gamers whoare, who are basically in the
uh, in here and and this is wait, I want to be in that community
.
Totally, I'll invite you.

Ivanha Paz (40:20):
I'll invite you both .

Kyle Hudson (40:21):
You can come in and we can drop memes all day long,
but, like you know, and beingable to share your stacks and
stuff like that, but like, justso we're and I will say that,
like Lexi, who's one of theprogrammers that we're working
with to do this Rainbow sixsiege tournament, um also does
discord, uh, configuration andsetup amazing, like

(40:42):
professionally right, this is,this is how people get you know
and like start here and here's,like you know how to get started
and how to share, and like theserver rules and like here's you
know, we're gonna startfleshing out like how to how to
stack stuff, and then we'regonna do like a gaming giveaway,
but like even in the in thelounge or like the food you just

(41:02):
like launched.

Ivanha Paz (41:03):
This is really well thought out.

Kyle Hudson (41:05):
It's awesome yeah, but I think like, and there's
nobody, there's not that manypeople in here, but it's one of
these.
We've started.
We've started adding people andsome people say hi and stuff
like that, but I'm not thatworried about it.
Um, but it is interesting.
Like this is Visual Electric.
They just launched andliterally they have an
announcements oh look, oh, lookat this.
This is the Discord that theydid in their email.

(41:27):
Check this out.

Ian McClanan (41:28):
Oh, that's awesome .

Kyle Hudson (41:29):
Oh, that's cool, and they made all that with
Visual Electric.
But then, like introductions,people say hi, this is Colin,
he's the founder.
He's like, hey, stoked to haveyou here.
There's some inspiration so youcan like get some really cool
stuff that people made.
This is totally made withvisual electric, um, and.
And then there's support andsomeone says hey, is things

(41:50):
breaking?
And he's like sorry, you'rehaving this issue, we'll look at
it and like it's superlightweight and it's not as
fancy as ours.
And you know, like this isbasically what they launched.
And I think what, what he's,what Colin's finding interesting
is especially around this, likeinspiration stuff, like to be
able to sort of, you know, seepeople using it like this and

(42:11):
then potentially say, you know,amazing, can I use this in
social?
Yeah, sure, you know, great,you're just sort of like like,
but I think you could actuallydo it.
What would be reallyinteresting is if you opened up
like and our team will totallyhelp your team like, build it.
Like is to build one and justmake it a super invite.
It's like 50 people and you'reonly having 50 people in and
it's literally you don't have toeven check it every five

(42:35):
minutes.
You could check it like everyday and everyone gets that.
The vibe is like you know thathonestly sounds around.
It's like you know 50 of yourtwitter friends on on a discord
like totally and you're sayinghi and like you're dropping
stuff and like somebody's got aquestion or whatever, and you
sort of start to get the vibe ofwhat that community is.
And then you let people in,sort of little by little or

(42:56):
whatever it is, but not to notto harp on on, uh, discord, but
I just think it's reallyinteresting.
Um, you know, when we thinkabout like ideating this idea of
what do you do with a sort ofunstructured, untethered
community, and start to figureout like how do, how do we more
personally interact with you,rather than just like in tweets

(43:20):
or in tickets or in intercom,like you know or?

Ivanha Paz (43:24):
something like that, and it's an interesting problem
to try and solve yeah, I mean,I think most of our like
interactions would have, like wehost a lot of in-person events,
right, but like, yeah, theproblem with that is that it's
like not scalable.
So, yeah, we get to see ahundred people when we host
events in that specific city.

Ian McClanan (43:42):
Which is not a problem, right.
It's just a limitation, right,but yeah.

Kyle Hudson (43:50):
No, and I love going to the events and I always
prioritize it when traveling.
And the last one.
I love the AI one and seeingstuff in real person and seeing
everyone get together.
I think what's reallyinteresting is, then, and I even
think about like how do you,beyond sort of Twitter responses

(44:11):
and stuff like that, how doessomeone like me get more in with
you all, especially aroundthings like the beta features
that are coming out, or like myexperience doing it, or like, um
, oh, have you ever seen StoryPrompt?
By the way, it's so good.
It's basically this app thatyou can send out a link and I

(44:31):
can send you both the link.
Our link is basically likeHTTPS stacklist, forward slash,
love, go to that.
It's me talking for like 30seconds and I'm like hi, I would
love it if you could just turnyour phone like this and give me
a 60 second testimonial aboutwhat you think about Sackless,

(44:54):
and so I send it up to peopleand basically what I get back is
people going hey, my inch tile,this is what I do and this is
you know what I've been doingand I really enjoy it and and
I'll get those back.

Ivanha Paz (45:04):
And then I'll fire off like a starbucks card and be
like thanks, and now I've gotthis like 60 second, you know
video of someone saying like Ilove it, it's great um which is
a cool different way to to sortof maybe interact with the
community as well I think thatreally speaks to just like how,
as a like how much of a naturalI think you are, and and just
like doing community, because,like it's not that easy to get

(45:27):
people to take out their phoneand record their faces and send
you a video, like you you musthave, I don't know, but built a
really strong community, didsome really good messaging, like
it's light.

Kyle Hudson (45:40):
It's it's light right now, but I would say it's
personal.
It's one of those things that,like we, we, we keep up with
people.
We have inter, like weinstalled intercom almost
immediately and it probablyseems like too much of an
overhead for like for launchingwith a site that already has a
fully fleshed out intercom.
But I've enjoyed being able tolike we have this one person
that came on who just startedposting like an intercom this

(46:02):
doesn't work and that doesn'twork and whatever.
Jack, if you're watching this,like I love you.
But we started going back andforth and then I sent him a.
I knew he was in australia andI sent him a gift card for, like
, food delivery in australia.
And now we go back and forthand he's like hey, I like the
new thing that you just launchedand like I like this other
thing that you launched orwhatever.
But like, trying to find thatlike two-way, I think is an

(46:25):
interesting thing, without itbecoming overwhelming or having
to like build up a whole team tolike manage it.
But that's, I guess that's thething is figuring out how you
can sort of keep it personalwithout having to, like, you
know, a bunch of overhead haveyou tried click?

Ivanha Paz (46:40):
no it can help, it's just oh really yeah, it's a
really cool tool.
It helps you managerelationships and with ai, oh so
it's like a crm, but likebasically for like all your
twitters and linkedins andemails, and so it'll tell you,
like you know, if you have.
If somebody like sends you likea calendar invite and you're
not sure like who they are, likeyou could even ask like when

(47:01):
was the last time I talked tothem, or whatever, and they'll
say like oh, you tweeted or yousee this.
So it's really helpful oh,amazing I am.

Kyle Hudson (47:09):
By the way, I, when I see stuff like this and the
tools that I think you and dannydid one right with, like the
tools and I was writing back, Iwas like I'm I'm basically gonna
sit here for the next two hourssigning up for all these and
like trying them.
I do that.
I sign up for everything and Itry everything.
Oh, I love it.
I'm sure my email address islike that's why it's on the dark
web is because I sign up foreverything on the whole planet

(47:32):
but I love this like literallysigning up for clay right now um
kyle I, I have one question foryou.

Ian McClanan (47:41):
I um, yeah, I'm curious about your, uh, content
vision for the company and, like, what are the types of things
that you like to share and whereyou really see your
storytelling going?
Like, what are the types ofthings that you really are drawn
to?

Kyle Hudson (47:56):
I think Danny and I even talked about this once,
about startup, alex from thepodcast Startup, which really to
me was one of those first early, which really to me was one of
those first early.
What was the other podcast thatreally took off?
The one about Anand Syed, theguy that was locked up?

(48:16):
Oh my gosh, it was thisAmerican Life.
They did a podcast.
It was basically Startup andthis other podcast and they both
just went nuts and it was theearly podcast era.
But startup was so greatbecause even the first episode
it was basically alex likeleaving his full-time job and
being like I think I'm gonnastart a podcast and he records

(48:38):
every single sort of likeinteraction.
So he goes home and he actuallyrecords the interaction.
It's a great episode where hegoes with his wife being like
I'm quitting and I'm starting apodcast company and she's like
uh, okay, um, like, and you'rejust getting that sort of raw
kind of feeling and I think whatI really like is coming from

(49:00):
big agencies and andconsultancies and things like
that.
I just know there's much,there's so much like political
and bullshit and like all, justall sorts of like stuff, and I
think what I love is when yourip all that stuff away and you
get into being an entrepreneurand you're starting up a small

(49:21):
company and you're being part ofit.
You get rid of all that stuffand it's just like being a kid
again when you're like playingwith Legos or whatever.
There is no like the hierarchyand the level and the politicals
, and you know what does thepartner think about this?
And like, and there's just allthese sort of things that you
can literally do what you twohave been doing, which is just
experimenting, having your owllab experiments right and not

(49:41):
having someone go like, excuseme, what's he doing and how much
revenue is that driving?

Ivanha Paz (49:46):
You know what I mean .

Kyle Hudson (49:46):
And whatever that it's like no, no, no, no, let's.
Let's like let's play and tryand see and do, because that's
like the lab is the only waythat you end up innovating on
stuff like that.
And so for me it's more aboutmaybe just trying to get better
at doing that kind of contentreally quickly and easily,
hopefully to sort of share topeople who who because I've been

(50:09):
in this place for a long, longtime where, even as I did acting
and improv like in in pastlives, um, but I never got good
at doing this, which was justlike here's- me and I'm just
talking about it and I'm not inmy head worrying about like a
script or what I'm saying orlike having it be polished or
whatever it is, and I think thetransparency of the ups and the

(50:30):
downs and like buildingsomething and like trying to
build something, hopefully wouldhelp someone else who would
potentially be like I think Iwant to try something you know,
what I mean, or I think I mightwant to record myself, or I want
to document something, or Iwant to build a company and see
where it goes, and so hopefully,the authenticity authenticity
and the transparency are the twothings that end up coming

(50:51):
through the stuff we do from acontent perspective.

Ian McClanan (50:56):
Cool.

Kyle Hudson (50:58):
Oh, it did it.
It did it, do I get?

Ian McClanan (51:01):
one Hold on.

Kyle Hudson (51:03):
Sometimes the contrast has to be just right.
Or maybe mine's return off.
What would?
Um, I would love to know.
Oh, I, would like to know, um,like I know we're going to come
up on time here in a minute, soI would love to know from
y'all's perspective, like fromthe outside in, if you had, if
each of you had, just onerecommendation from, from a

(51:23):
stackless perspective what whatwould it be, even just from like
a story perspective, or howit's perceived, or how it's like
knowing what it does and andwhere we potentially could be
like what would your, what wouldyour thing be?
we can all take a moment ofquiet reflection too, like if
there's people driving, they can.

(51:43):
We can just take a break fromthis podcast, because we're all
gonna just sit here for a minute, so don't worry, like you don't
change the channel, but I mean,I think you're doing, like, all
the right things.

Ivanha Paz (51:52):
Like I, um, I see you're like doing a lot of
founder-led sort of like content.
You're being active.
You're on twitter, you've gotthe discord.
Like you're sharing yourproduct in a way that uh makes
people want to see and find outand it's fun.
Like I think you're all doingall all those things.
Um, I don't know, maybe one,one little thing I guess could

(52:17):
be like, ah, like, sometimesit's not super clear to me like
the I like, am I the ideal userfor stack list?
Is ian the ideal user for stacklist?
Like, I think that there's somany possibilities that some
specificity or help for yourdifferent personas or use cases

(52:41):
I think it's harder because myvision also is who's the ideal
person for facebook?
right, thank, thank everybody.

Kyle Hudson (52:48):
People, right, and so it's one of those things that
I don't.
It's not out of the realm ofpossibility in my mind that like
people who save and share linksyeah, are the people that I
would like people who usebrowsers would be like, would be
like my ideal persona.
But because and there's areason for this is because I
think one of the things isbroken.
Just just take a second lookaround your room and name a

(53:11):
thing that doesn't have to dowith a link.
Do you know what I mean?
The stuff that you've curatedin your life and the things that
you like.
This is my favorite coffee mugby fellow.
It fits in the back of my jeanspocket and it doesn't like
spill and I can throw it in mybook bag.
When somebody says, oh my gosh,that's cool, so can you send
that to me?
It's like can you just Googlehello?

(53:32):
And there's this barrier whereI want to make it that I'm like
oh yeah, hold on one second.
Oh, I just texted it to you andyou've got it, and then you can
save it, and then you have thatthing and we have this ability
to share this moment of like, ofsharing something, and I think
it's about people who everyonecurates their lives, so being

(53:53):
able to sort of really easilyand quickly like curate your
life and then share it withother people is the ideal person
I love that message curate yourlife because we do every day
but you can't actually like namethe last trip you went on like
and then send me the top 10places that you went on that
trip uh, take me forever, Idon't know

(54:14):
you'd be like in your head.
You immediately go to this like20 minute session where you
have to sit down and like open agoogle doc and like do a bunch
of research or whatever, and andinstead of that you can go to
my profile and um, it'sstacklessapp forward, slash,
kyle.
At about halfway down there'smy 2014 venice trip, which was
one of my favorite trips ever,and you can just save all the

(54:34):
places that I went like thatyeah sort of like that's the
thing that I want to.
I want to.
It's like letting people knowthere's a better way to well in
content, I think also is one ofthose things.
There's something else that canbe paired with content content
when you look at my Instagramprofile, if you just, if you
don't click into each video, ifyou just look at the thumbnails,
if you didn't know me, tell mewhat I'm into and what my

(54:57):
favorite things are.
You can't do it because it'sall sort of this like it's this,
like in the moment, that sortof so.
Now, if you go to my secondsprofile and you go through,
you're like oh, he's into photoand video and this is his like
baffle music playlist and thisis like he's into these books
and this is like his travelstuff, or whatever.
You get this like more holistic360 view of someone.

(55:18):
That gives you the ability thento be like I'm also into that,
or I'm also into you know, or,or have something to discuss,
versus what I think about when Ithink about a traditional sort
of link in bio or or any ofthose sort of things where it's
literally just like here's mydiscount codes, please sign up
for my newsletter winnie, shouldwe share jam's profile?

(55:39):
oh, yeah, yeah, jams, let me,let me here.
I got it.
Uh, oh, I have it, look, and Ihave it in one of my 2000
browser tabs.

Ian McClanan (55:50):
I think I'm thinking of my one thing for you
and Stackless and I thinkbasically, stackless feels like
a foundational step is having aknowledge gap and that, like I
want to know this thing aboutyou and I want to know what
these links are.
And for me, I think about, likeme, knowing my favorite

(56:11):
creators, the tools, like, forexample, all the stuff they use
in their studio.
That's like a very strongknowledge gap, and so the
question is how can I, how can Iidentify what those gaps are in
my, in my life, and what's thelike compelling way to have that
answer be a stack list, and sofor me like as I think about,

(56:31):
like, like you, I love techreviewers because I want to know
their gear recommendations.
I love outdoor creators becauseI want to know the places that
they know that are around me.
I want to know who are, who arethe domain experts and how do
we get their domain of expertiseas a knowledge gap that's

(56:53):
solved through stack list and so, totally, I think who,
identifying who those, who thosespecific people are and like
they just feel so, like, soimportant to this, to solving
this question, and so I guessthat's where my mind runs.

Kyle Hudson (57:09):
I love that like I even think about you from.
I love your personal contentaround, like running and and
things like that.
I think about like best runningpaths or or best running gear
or things like that, and how youwould actually connect up with.
It's different following anInstagram, like an Instagram
profile where you're watchingsomeone else make content,
versus if you also had somethingto pair with it, where you

(57:32):
could literally save all theirfavorite stuff.
And then imagine what's goingto happen here soon is you're
going to follow one of yourfavorite runners on Instagram
and you're going to follow theirrunning gear list and then when
someone adds a new pair ofshoes or a new like tech gear
running tech gear to that list,you're going to get a little
notification that goes like hey,they added this thing and it

(57:54):
compresses the amount of timethat it took to get that thing
that they just curated to you.
And then you get to sort oflike try it or decide if it's
something that you want to tryand if it's your favorite thing
that you then end up sharing out.
So it's like it's like cuttingthrough all of these different
sort of layers of of being ableto just share stuff with people.

(58:14):
I'm going to show that.
I'm going to show the jam andJam stacks and I love what you
were just saying Even, even, inlike.
If you go to mine and I havelike a travel essentials and
books and my New York favoritesand stuff like that.
I have a like photo and videogear like.
Here's my and this Leica, soforth is amazing.

(58:35):
By the way, it's sitting overhere on the on the on the um
shelf with me but this is aPolaroid and basically what you
do is point and shoot and youdon't.
It doesn't print every time.
You only decide when you wantto print a Polaroid and then it
saves it on like a flash driveand you can print the Polaroids
from the camera, which isamazing.
So, but like being able to, yeah, totally so, like, so like

(58:58):
there's a screen on the back andyou can basically take it and
be like, yeah, that's a good one, and then press a button and
the Polaroid comes out.
And so the second I shared thislike this video is like.
It's like the one video thatwent like viral is not the right
, right word, it had thesniffles, but like it went a
little bit like somewhere, um,just because that was such an

(59:20):
interesting thing.
And then I basically linkedpeople to this and of all the
stuff I've ever shared, that onecard is the one that gets like
the most you know interest, andso for me to understand that and
know sort of why and how thatthat happens is is really
interesting um and so for.
Imagine, like ian, if you followthis list and I add a couple
more things now, we sort of havethis little thing that we sort

(59:42):
of can talk about, like you know, similar interests on on like
tech gear.
Uh, so jam.
Oh, I was actually I wasshowing, who was I showing?
Oh, I was on the phone withsomeone from introcom and I was
showing them a stack list and Ijammed by the way, I jammed the

(01:00:03):
site in real time to show themjams so that I tried to
introduce jam to introcom.
So, by the way, if rad and teamstart using jam, I'm just I'm
not saying I'm taking credit,but I sort of am so yeah so here

(01:00:23):
it is, here's the here's thejam profile, so totally.
And yeah, so here it is, here'sthe jam profile, so totally.
And look, we've got some Iandown here too doing his thing.

Ian McClanan (01:00:37):
Doing the thing, yeah.

Kyle Hudson (01:00:38):
And I think what's so interesting that what we're
also trying to sort of, whatwe're hypothesizing but we're
still pushing into, is that thisis what most people kind of get
confronted with right in thatsort of link in by and link in
bio is only really one smallpart of of what we're doing.
But this is how I kind of thinkabout it, that from a
personality who are, who isellie and what does she do this

(01:01:02):
is kind of most of the time whatwe get versus like oh, let's
explode some of that out firstand then sort of create a little
little nano networks aroundthis stuff.
Imagine that the dev utilitiesif you all kept adding to it and
that you had comments on hereand we had likes and you could

(01:01:24):
tell which one was the mostpopular and you could also tell
that the base 64 encoder sat in160 accounts.
That would sort of give yousignal about this.
But it would also be one ofthose things that like again, I
don't have to have a blog postwith all this stuff on it.
I've actually just got thisright here.
So when I want to pull that upagain, I go here in the Chrome

(01:01:47):
extension and I can type base 64and just get that encoder and
click it and start using it andso like it just sort of
shortcuts, how how you can kindof get to some of that stuff.

Ivanha Paz (01:02:01):
And not just like how you can get to it, but also
like how you can create it, likeit's so easy to create a little
card.

Kyle Hudson (01:02:05):
like yeah, um.
And then also I think one ofthe things we've been seeing is
people being able to bubble upsome of their content and have
it live on right, that you canpick something from a year ago
and have it up here and befeatured, or that someone else
could see something like apodcast episode and save it into
the same account.
They would save their recipesand their favorite books or

(01:02:27):
whatever it is that this pieceof content sort of now lives on
in my account kind of longerthan it normally would if I kind
of forgot about episode 25.
So you're also sort of givingcontent and links and like um, a
longer lifespan um than than itmight have had before it's very

(01:02:47):
cool, it's like.

Ivanha Paz (01:02:49):
It's like a a combination of ways of consuming
content and sharing contentthat we all know, but combining
them all it's like and sure it'slike new.
It's a new way to share well,we're pushing in that direction.

Kyle Hudson (01:03:02):
This is this is us, this is how we're building
Sackless.
We're just pushing in thisdirection and luckily you all
are around us and we're like arewe doing it right?
And I appreciate you all comingin and help us figure out if
we're headed in the rightdirection and kind of talking
about it.

Ivanha Paz (01:03:22):
Thanks so much, Kyle .

Kyle Hudson (01:03:24):
Yeah Well, thanks for jumping on, uh, and sorry I
copied the podcast name, um, butwe love it.
No, it's great it's great.

Ivanha Paz (01:03:37):
Wait, we need to get the.
We need to do like a.
I guess this is we've done.
No, we need to do a crossoverpod now.
Jam stack list.
You need to come on thebuilding, damn lot jamming the
stack list.

Kyle Hudson (01:03:51):
Hold on, we also need, I think we need, is we
need, a screenshot?
Uh, hold on, let's see, here wego, get your best, your best
podcasting pose I don't know.

Ivanha Paz (01:04:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, you should hold it.

Kyle Hudson (01:04:01):
You should hold it up, here we go.
This is oh, yeah, yeah, no, youshould hold it up, here we go.
Great, okay, there's thethumbnail.
Amazing, but seriously thanksfor jumping on and I love these
sort of discussions.
You know just kind of exploringand talking and getting y'all's

(01:04:22):
feedback and also understanding.
You know kind of y'all'sjourney from when you started to
what you're making and whereit's headed.
So I appreciate it.

Ian McClanan (01:04:30):
Thanks, Kyle Thanks.

Ivanha Paz (01:04:32):
Amazing, it's been really awesome Thanks for having
us on.

Kyle Hudson (01:04:35):
Good seeing you, you, you you.