August 10, 2025 • 18 mins
Discover the highlights of this chapter shaping the New Evangelization today: https://www.builtforgreatness.com/tao-te-ching-chapter-79-forgiving-debt/
Can ancient wisdom solve modern conflicts? Our fascinating exploration of "Forgiving Debt" from the Built for God movement handbook reveals a unique Christian interpretation of the Tao Te Ching that bridges Eastern and Western spiritual traditions.
We begin with a question that strikes at the heart of human experience: "After settling a bitter dispute, some resentment remains. How can this be good?" This universal challenge—the lingering emotional aftermath of conflict—sets the stage for a profound journey through complementary spiritual frameworks.
The Restore framework connects Jesus's teaching about forgiving "seventy-seven times" to the ongoing nature of reconciliation. We explore the concept of the "righteous man" who fulfills obligations without demanding anything in return, drawing parallels to the Christian concept of grace and contrasting it with transactional approaches to relationships. This section challenges us to move beyond self-interest toward integrity and selfless service.
Next, we unpack the practical MAP method—Mindset, Aim, and Practice—which offers concrete guidance for personal transformation. This framework helps us cultivate humility before attempting reconciliation, maintain unwavering integrity regardless of others' actions, and serve without expectation of reward or recognition.
Perhaps most fascinating is the discovery of four universal truths that transcend religious boundaries. Through passages from Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism, we see how principles of peace, integrity, selfless service, and higher purpose represent essential human values rather than merely religious concepts.
The episode concludes with practical applications that bring these ancient principles into everyday modern life—from healing racial divisions to maintaining ethical behavior in challenging workplaces.
What might change in your relationships if you approached forgiveness as an ongoing process rather than a one-time event? How could embracing these universal principles transform your sense of purpose? Listen now to discover timeless wisdom for today's complex world.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So today we're going to be taking a look at chapter
79 from the Built for Godmovement handbook.
This chapter is calledForgiving Debt.
What makes this so intriguingis that this handbook is
actually a Christian edition ofthe Tao Te Ching, so we're
bringing together some reallyinteresting philosophical and
spiritual traditions here.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, I'm fascinated to see how those two things are
going to kind of intertwine andinform each other.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Absolutely so.
Within this chapter we're goingto be looking at two main
sections.
They're called restore andrenewal, and they're presented
as kind of lenses or frameworksfor how we can approach things
like obligations, even our owninternal motivations.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, I think that resonates with a lot of people,
because I think that that'ssomething that we all struggle
with.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Absolutely.
And the chapter kind of kicksoff with this really thought
provoking question.
It says after settling a bitterdispute, some resentment
remains.
How can this be good?
And I think we can all relateto that right.
Even when you've, you'veresolved an argument, on the
surface, there's there's oftenthis, this lingering feeling of
you know, unease or negativity,that kind of sticks around.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, it's like that stain that just won't go away.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Exactly.
So how do we even begin tounpack that idea and find a way
forward?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, the first section restore it kind of lays
the groundwork with some coreprinciples and it starts by
acknowledging this very realhuman experience right that even
after you've reached anagreement there can be this
leftover resentment that justpersists.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And it's interesting because it immediately connects
this idea to the Christianconcept of forgiveness.
It's specifically referencingJesus's teaching in Matthew 18,
where he talks about forgiving77 times.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Right, which is obviously not meant to be taken
literally.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Right, it's more about emphasizing this ongoing
nature of forgiveness, that it'snot a one-time thing.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, it's about really transcending that initial
conflict and moving towards adeeper level of reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Absolutely and addressing those deeper hurts
that might still be there evenwhen the argument itself is over
.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, I think that's the real challenge how do you
actually let go of thosenegative emotions and find
genuine peace?
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Absolutely so.
Then the chapter introducesthis idea of a righteous man,
and it describes him as someonewho fulfills his part of a
bargain without demandinganything in return.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Okay, so kind of going above and beyond.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
In a way, yeah, and what's fascinating is how this
connects to the Christian ideaof grace.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So grace is often described as this unearned favor
from God.
It's a gift given freely, andsimilarly, this idea in the
chapter is encouraging us tofulfill our obligations, not
because we're expectingsomething in return, but because
it's simply the right thing todo.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Do it out of the goodness of your heart.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Exactly right thing to do, do it out of the goodness
of your heart.
Exactly, and the chapter evenreferences a passage in Luke 6
where Jesus advocates forlending without expecting
repayment, which is which is socounterintuitive.
It really is right, Becausewe're so used to thinking about
transactions and what we'regoing to get out of something.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
What's in it for me?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Exactly.
And then the chapter contraststhis with the unrighteous who
are constantly demandingcompensation, you know, and it
links that back to warningsagainst greed that are found in
the New Testament, like in 1Timothy.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Right.
So it's kind of setting upthese two different motivations.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Right, this real fork in the road.
Are we driven by what we canaccumulate or by the integrity
of simply doing what we'vepromised to do?
I see integrity of simply doingwhat we've promised to do, and
that kind of leads into thisnext idea about God's
impartiality.
So the chapter talks about howGod is impartial and it cites
passages from 1 Peter and Romansto support that, but then it
also says that God gives tothose who serve others.
(03:37):
How do we reconcile these twoseemingly different ideas?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Right, Because at first glance it almost sounds
like a contradiction.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It does.
So I think the key here isunderstanding what giving really
means in this context.
You know, god's impartialitymeans that he doesn't show
favoritism based on, you know,superficial attributes, right,
but his generosity, his givingoften flows towards those who
embody his values.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I see.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And serving others is such a cornerstone of Christian
teaching.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So the chapter clarifies that true wealth in
God's eyes isn't about materialpossessions, but it's about that
spiritual richness that'scultivated through kindness,
humility and acts of service.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So it's not about getting ahead in a worldly sense
Exactly, but about aligningyourself with God's values
through your actions.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Right and then experiencing a different kind of
reward.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
A more spiritual reward.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Exactly so.
I think the core takeaway fromthis restore section is that
choosing to act righteously,offering forgiveness even when
it's difficult, and servingothers without expecting
anything in return, all of thesethings align with Christian
principles of grace, mercy andselfless love, and the chapter
suggests that living this way itopens us up to God's generosity
(04:49):
.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
All right, so that's the restore section.
Now what about renewal?
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, so renewal gets into this really interesting
framework called mindset, aimand practice.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Map.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, and it's presented as a way to kind of
guide us towards personaltransformation.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Okay, so it's kind of a roadmap.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So, let's start with mindset.
You know, what kind of mindsetshould we be cultivating before
we even attempt to settle adispute?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, given what we've talked about with
lingering resentment, thechapter suggests that, going
into those conversations, weshould really be grounded in
humility, patience and grace,and recognizing that healing it
doesn't always happen overnight.
It might take time.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It's a process.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And the chapter references Hebrews 12 and Romans
12, both of which reallyencourage this patient approach
to reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's almost like a reminder to go into those
difficult conversations notexpecting to just flip a switch
and have everything be okay, butbeing prepared for a journey,
you know, towards healing.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, because even if you apologize and you kind of
move past the argument itself,those hurt feelings, they might
still linger for a while.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And that's okay.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, and this mindset encourages us to be
patient with that process.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Absolutely.
So, then, shifting gears a bit.
What about the mindset weshould have before upholding our
part of a bargain or anagreement?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, here the emphasis is on personal
integrity, being committed tofulfilling your obligations
regardless of what the otherperson does, and the chapter
quotes Matthew 5, where it sayslet your yes be yes.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And also Luke 16, which talks about being faithful
even in small things.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It's really about taking ownership of our
commitments.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
You know, doing what's right because it's right,
not because we're expecting apat on the back.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, it's about your character.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Exactly so.
Imagine you're in a businessdeal and the other party starts
to fall short on their end ofthe agreement.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Have us all the time.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Right.
This mindset encourages you tostill honor your commitments to
the best of your ability.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, integrity is key.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Absolutely so.
Moving on, what about themindset we should have before
serving others or fulfillingobligations towards them?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Here, the focus is on selflessness, doing good
without any expectation ofpersonal gain.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
And there are some beautiful scriptures that speak
to this, like Philippians 2,where it says Do nothing from
selfish ambition or conceit, butin humility count others more
significant than yourselves.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right and Matthew 10, .
Freely you have received.
Freely give.
Yeah, what's driving you toserve?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Are we doing it to get something in return, or is
it truly an expression of careand compassion?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, like think about someone who volunteers in
their community.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
This mindset is encouraging them to do it out of
a genuine desire to help.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Not to boost their own ego.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Okay.
So then finally, what about themindset we should cultivate
before seeking blessings orrecognition?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Here the chapter points out that true blessings
actually come from selflessservice.
It's about seeking God'sapproval rather than human
praise.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And this is tough in today's world.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It is when we're constantly being told to promote
ourselves and showcase ourachievements.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Social media.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Exactly so.
This calls for a much moreinward focus serving because it
aligns with our values, notbecause we want to be seen.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Right, it's about that inner compass.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Exactly so.
We've covered mindset.
Now let's shift to aim Right,the A in MAP Right.
So what should our goal bebefore attempting to settle a
dispute?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
The chapter tells us that the primary aim should be
peace and reconciliation.
Okay, even if full emotionalhealing takes time, the
direction of our efforts shouldalways be towards restoring
peace and harmony.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And there are some powerful scriptures that support
this, like Matthew 5.
Blessed are the peacemakers,for they shall be called sons of
God.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
And 1 Peter.
4.
Above all, keep loving oneanother earnestly, since love
covers a multitude of sins.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So it's not just about smoothing things over on
the surface, but about genuinelyworking towards a better
relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Preparing that connection Exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What about our aim before upholding bargains or
agreements?
Here, the aim is personalintegrity being unwavering in
our commitment to our word, nomatter what the other person
does.
And Matthew 5 comes up againhere Let your yes be yes and
your no be no.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Right.
So it's about establishingourselves as someone who can be
relied upon.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, being a person of your word.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Exactly All right.
So then, what about our aimbefore engaging in service?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Here, the aim should be to serve selflessly and
humbly, without any expectationof reward or recognition.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And there are some great scriptures that really
drive this point home.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, like Matthew 23 , which says but whoever would
be great among you must be yourservant.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right and Philippians 2,.
Let each of you look not onlyto his own interests, but also
to the interests of others.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
So the focus shouldn't be on what you can get
out of it.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
But on the act of service itself.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Doing it out of love and compassion.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, so lastly, what should our aim be before
seeking blessings or recognition?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
This one ties back to what we were talking about
earlier.
The aim should be to serve witha pure heart, seeking God's
approval above all else.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Not the approval of other people.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Right, and Matthew 6 is really central here.
Beware of practicing yourrighteousness before other
people in order to be seen bythem, for then you will have no
reward from your Father, who isin heaven.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
It all comes back to that internal motivation yeah,
who are you trying to please?
Exactly.
So.
We've covered mindset, we'vecovered aim.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Now let's move into practice okay, the p and m a p
so how do we actually put theseprinciples into action?
All right.
So, starting with settlingdisputes, the practice is to
actively choose forgiveness andreconciliation, even if it's a
gradual process.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Because sometimes those feelings don't just
disappear overnight.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Exactly, and Colossians 3 encourages us to
bear with each other and if onehas a complaint against another,
forgive each other.
As the Lord has forgiven you,so you also must forgive.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And we've already mentioned Matthew 5 about being
peacemakers.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right.
So it's about making thatconscious decision to let go of
resentment.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Even if it takes time .
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, it's an ongoing practice.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Absolutely so.
How about practicing theseprinciples before upholding
bargains?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Here, the practice is to consistently act with
integrity.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Fulfilling our commitments without expecting
anything in return.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And the scriptures that come up here are a familiar
one.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Letting your yes be yes.
And Luke 16,.
One who is faithful in a verylittle is also faithful in much,
and one who is dishonest in avery little is also dishonest in
much.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So it's about building a reputation of
trustworthiness.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, being someone whose word means something.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Exactly Okay.
So then, how about practicingthese principles before engaging
in service?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Here the practice is to serve selflessly.
Okay, Motivated by love andcompassion, not by personal gain
.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And again we see those familiar scriptures.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, philippians.
Two about counting others moresignificant than yourselves.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And Matthew 23,.
The greatest among you shall beyour servant.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So making selfless service a regular part of our
lives.
So making selfless service aregular part of our lives.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, a natural expression of who we are.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, and finally, how do we practice these
principles before seekingblessings?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
The practice is to serve with a heart that's
focused on God's approval, noton seeking recognition from
others.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
And Matthew 6 comes up again here.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Right, but when you give to the needy, do not let
your left hand know what yourright hand is doing, so that
your giving may be in secret.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
It's about shifting our focus from external
validation to internal integrity.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, and the chapter actually adds one more practice
before trusting in God'sprovision, and the practice here
is to actively trust in God'stiming and provision as a
consequence of our selflessservice.
Okay, referencing Matthew 20and Philippians 4.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So it's about having faith that our actions will be
acknowledged by God.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, in his own way and time.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I like that.
So this whole renewal section,it really gives us a practical
way to put these principles intopractice.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, a roadmap for living them out.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Exactly Now.
The final section of thechapter is called Respond, so it
starts by saying that renewalemphasizes the importance of
engaging in meaningful dialogueto embrace shared truth that
transcend cultural and religiousboundaries.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Okay, so it's about finding common ground.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Exactly.
And then it goes on tohighlight four fundamental
truths that are found within thetext, and it connects those
truths to teachings from variousworld religions.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, so the first universal truth is the
importance of peace andreconciliation.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Which takes us back to that opening question.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Exactly about lingering resentment.
Christianity, islam, hinduism,buddhism and Judaism they all
emphasize the value of peace.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
They do.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Matthew 5.9 talks about peacemakers.
Quran 49.9 says if two partiesamong the believers fight, then
make reconciliation between them.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
The Bhagavad Gita, 2.12, says pleasures and pains
arise from the contact of thesenses with their objects.
They come and go like theseasons, therefore endure them
patiently.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Dhammapada 1.5 says hatred does not cease by hatred
at any time.
Hatred ceases by love.
This is an eternal law.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And Psalm 34, turn away from evil and do good.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Seek peace and pursue it.
So it's clear that the desirefor peace and harmony is a
universal human longing.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, it gets across cultural and religious
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Absolutely, and the chapter suggests a really
practical application for thistruth.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Fostering community dialogue to help heal racial
tensions.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
That's so important.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
All right.
So the second universal truthis the principle of integrity
and fulfilling one's commitments, and this idea of the righteous
man honoring his agreements.
It echoes teachings fromMatthew 5.37.
Let what you say be simply yesor no.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Quran 5.1.
Oh, you who have believed,fulfill all that is included in
the contracts.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Bhagavad Gita 16.3,.
Fearlessness, truthfulness,freedom from anger, nonviolence,
self-restraint, steadfastnessin knowledge, charity,
forgiveness, fortitude, absenceof hatred these are the
qualities of those born withdivine nature.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Dhammapada.
One should speak the truth andspeak words that are gentle and
kind and that do not offend.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And Proverbs 20.7,.
The righteous who walks in hisintegrity.
Blessed are his children afterhim.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So keeping your word, being a person of integrity.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's a universally valued principle.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, it forms the foundation of trust.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Exactly, and the real world application suggested
here is maintaining ethicalconduct at work even when others
aren't.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That can be tough, All right.
What about the third universaltruth?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So this one is the importance of selfless service
and fulfilling our obligationsto others, and the idea of
serving without demandingcompensation.
This is reflected in teachingsfrom Matthew 20.26.
But whoever would be greatamong you must be your servant.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Quran 17.24.
And lower to them the wing ofhumility out of mercy and say my
Lord, have mercy upon them, asthey brought me up when I was
small.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Bhagavad Gita, 9.22.
But those who worship me withdevotion, meditating on my
transcendental form.
To them I carry what they lackand preserve what they have.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Dhammapada 6.3.
To avoid all evil, to cultivategood and to cleanse one's mind
that is the teaching of theBuddhists.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And Talmud Avot 1.2.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
So giving without expecting anything in return.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
It's a central theme in so many different traditions,
and the example given here isvolunteering at a food bank.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
A simple yet powerful way to serve, absolutely
Volunteering, at a food bank.
A simple yet powerful way toserve Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then the final universal truth is the
importance of seeking a higherpurpose or approval beyond human
recognition.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And this aligns with teachings from Matthew 6.2.
Thus, when you give to theneedy sound, no trumpet before
you, as the hypocrites do in thesynagogues and in the streets,
that they may be praised byothers.
Truly, I say to you, they havereceived their reward.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Sayyid Muslim.
Whoever seeks knowledge andacts upon it only to compete
with the scholars or to arguewith the foolish or to attract
the attention of the people,allah will throw him into
hellfire.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Bhagavad Gita, 3.19,.
Therefore, without beingattached to the fruits of
activities, one should act as amatter of duty, for by working
without attachment one attainsthe supreme.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Dhammapada 8.3.
He who does what is wholesome,who keeps the precepts and
speaks the truth, who ministersto his parents and supports his
wife and children, and who ispure in his livelihood, he
indeed gives a great gift.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And Talmud Barakat 9.5,.
Rabbi Yohanan said whoeverfulfills the Torah in poverty
will ultimately fulfill it inwealth, and whoever violates the
Torah in wealth will ultimatelyviolate it in poverty.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So it's about focusing on inner motivation,
seeking divine favor overworldly praise.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And the real world application suggested here is
helping others without seekingany kind of acknowledgement.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yes, doing it out of the goodness of your heart.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Exactly so.
It's really amazing to see howall of these different
traditions converge on thesefundamental principles.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, it really highlights their importance.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It does.
It suggests that these aren'tjust religious ideas.
They're essential truths thatcontribute to a more
compassionate and harmoniousworld.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So, as we wrap up this deep dive into chapter 79
of the BFG handbook, Forgivingdebt, yeah, forgiving debt.
I think it's clear that it'sabout so much more than just
resolving financial obligations.
Right, it's about letting go ofresentment, upholding our
commitments with integrity,embracing selfless service and
seeking a higher purpose in life.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And it's about recognizing that these
principles aren't confined toone specific religion or culture
.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Right.
They're universal truths thatcan guide us towards a more
fulfilling and meaningfulexistence.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, a life that's aligned with our deepest values.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Exactly so.
It really makes you think howmight consciously applying these
principles of forgiveness andselfless service transform your
relationships and your own senseof purpose.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's a good question.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
It is, and we hope this deep dive has given you
some food for thought.
So today we're going to be taking a look at chapter
79 from the Built for Godmovement handbook.
This chapter is calledForgiving Debt.
What makes this so intriguingis that this handbook is
actually a Christian edition ofthe Tao Te Ching, so we're
bringing together some reallyinteresting philosophical and
spiritual traditions here.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, I'm fascinated to see how those two things are
going to kind of intertwine andinform each other.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Absolutely so.
Within this chapter we're goingto be looking at two main
sections.
They're called restore andrenewal, and they're presented
as kind of lenses or frameworksfor how we can approach things
like obligations, even our owninternal motivations.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, I think that resonates with a lot of people,
because I think that that'ssomething that we all struggle
with.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Absolutely.
And the chapter kind of kicksoff with this really thought
provoking question.
It says after settling a bitterdispute, some resentment
remains.
How can this be good?
And I think we can all relateto that right.
Even when you've, you'veresolved an argument, on the
surface, there's there's oftenthis, this lingering feeling of
you know, unease or negativity,that kind of sticks around.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, it's like that stain that just won't go away.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Exactly.
So how do we even begin tounpack that idea and find a way
forward?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, the first section restore it kind of lays
the groundwork with some coreprinciples and it starts by
acknowledging this very realhuman experience right that even
after you've reached anagreement there can be this
leftover resentment that justpersists.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And it's interesting because it immediately connects
this idea to the Christianconcept of forgiveness.
It's specifically referencingJesus's teaching in Matthew 18,
where he talks about forgiving77 times.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Right, which is obviously not meant to be taken
literally.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Right, it's more about emphasizing this ongoing
nature of forgiveness, that it'snot a one-time thing.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, it's about really transcending that initial
conflict and moving towards adeeper level of reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Absolutely and addressing those deeper hurts
that might still be there evenwhen the argument itself is over
.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, I think that's the real challenge how do you
actually let go of thosenegative emotions and find
genuine peace?
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Absolutely so.
Then the chapter introducesthis idea of a righteous man,
and it describes him as someonewho fulfills his part of a
bargain without demandinganything in return.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Okay, so kind of going above and beyond.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
In a way, yeah, and what's fascinating is how this
connects to the Christian ideaof grace.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So grace is often described as this unearned favor
from God.
It's a gift given freely, andsimilarly, this idea in the
chapter is encouraging us tofulfill our obligations, not
because we're expectingsomething in return, but because
it's simply the right thing todo.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Do it out of the goodness of your heart.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Exactly right thing to do, do it out of the goodness
of your heart.
Exactly, and the chapter evenreferences a passage in Luke 6
where Jesus advocates forlending without expecting
repayment, which is which is socounterintuitive.
It really is right, Becausewe're so used to thinking about
transactions and what we'regoing to get out of something.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
What's in it for me?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Exactly.
And then the chapter contraststhis with the unrighteous who
are constantly demandingcompensation, you know, and it
links that back to warningsagainst greed that are found in
the New Testament, like in 1Timothy.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Right.
So it's kind of setting upthese two different motivations.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Right, this real fork in the road.
Are we driven by what we canaccumulate or by the integrity
of simply doing what we'vepromised to do?
I see integrity of simply doingwhat we've promised to do, and
that kind of leads into thisnext idea about God's
impartiality.
So the chapter talks about howGod is impartial and it cites
passages from 1 Peter and Romansto support that, but then it
also says that God gives tothose who serve others.
(03:37):
How do we reconcile these twoseemingly different ideas?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Right, Because at first glance it almost sounds
like a contradiction.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It does.
So I think the key here isunderstanding what giving really
means in this context.
You know, god's impartialitymeans that he doesn't show
favoritism based on, you know,superficial attributes, right,
but his generosity, his givingoften flows towards those who
embody his values.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I see.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And serving others is such a cornerstone of Christian
teaching.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So the chapter clarifies that true wealth in
God's eyes isn't about materialpossessions, but it's about that
spiritual richness that'scultivated through kindness,
humility and acts of service.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So it's not about getting ahead in a worldly sense
Exactly, but about aligningyourself with God's values
through your actions.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Right and then experiencing a different kind of
reward.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
A more spiritual reward.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Exactly so.
I think the core takeaway fromthis restore section is that
choosing to act righteously,offering forgiveness even when
it's difficult, and servingothers without expecting
anything in return, all of thesethings align with Christian
principles of grace, mercy andselfless love, and the chapter
suggests that living this way itopens us up to God's generosity
(04:49):
.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
All right, so that's the restore section.
Now what about renewal?
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, so renewal gets into this really interesting
framework called mindset, aimand practice.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Map.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, and it's presented as a way to kind of
guide us towards personaltransformation.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Okay, so it's kind of a roadmap.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So, let's start with mindset.
You know, what kind of mindsetshould we be cultivating before
we even attempt to settle adispute?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, given what we've talked about with
lingering resentment, thechapter suggests that, going
into those conversations, weshould really be grounded in
humility, patience and grace,and recognizing that healing it
doesn't always happen overnight.
It might take time.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It's a process.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And the chapter references Hebrews 12 and Romans
12, both of which reallyencourage this patient approach
to reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's almost like a reminder to go into those
difficult conversations notexpecting to just flip a switch
and have everything be okay, butbeing prepared for a journey,
you know, towards healing.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, because even if you apologize and you kind of
move past the argument itself,those hurt feelings, they might
still linger for a while.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And that's okay.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, and this mindset encourages us to be
patient with that process.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Absolutely.
So, then, shifting gears a bit.
What about the mindset weshould have before upholding our
part of a bargain or anagreement?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, here the emphasis is on personal
integrity, being committed tofulfilling your obligations
regardless of what the otherperson does, and the chapter
quotes Matthew 5, where it sayslet your yes be yes.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And also Luke 16, which talks about being faithful
even in small things.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It's really about taking ownership of our
commitments.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
You know, doing what's right because it's right,
not because we're expecting apat on the back.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, it's about your character.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Exactly so.
Imagine you're in a businessdeal and the other party starts
to fall short on their end ofthe agreement.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Have us all the time.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Right.
This mindset encourages you tostill honor your commitments to
the best of your ability.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, integrity is key.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Absolutely so.
Moving on, what about themindset we should have before
serving others or fulfillingobligations towards them?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Here, the focus is on selflessness, doing good
without any expectation ofpersonal gain.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
And there are some beautiful scriptures that speak
to this, like Philippians 2,where it says Do nothing from
selfish ambition or conceit, butin humility count others more
significant than yourselves.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right and Matthew 10, .
Freely you have received.
Freely give.
Yeah, what's driving you toserve?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Are we doing it to get something in return, or is
it truly an expression of careand compassion?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, like think about someone who volunteers in
their community.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
This mindset is encouraging them to do it out of
a genuine desire to help.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Not to boost their own ego.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Okay.
So then finally, what about themindset we should cultivate
before seeking blessings orrecognition?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Here the chapter points out that true blessings
actually come from selflessservice.
It's about seeking God'sapproval rather than human
praise.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And this is tough in today's world.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It is when we're constantly being told to promote
ourselves and showcase ourachievements.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Social media.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Exactly so.
This calls for a much moreinward focus serving because it
aligns with our values, notbecause we want to be seen.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Right, it's about that inner compass.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Exactly so.
We've covered mindset.
Now let's shift to aim Right,the A in MAP Right.
So what should our goal bebefore attempting to settle a
dispute?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
The chapter tells us that the primary aim should be
peace and reconciliation.
Okay, even if full emotionalhealing takes time, the
direction of our efforts shouldalways be towards restoring
peace and harmony.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And there are some powerful scriptures that support
this, like Matthew 5.
Blessed are the peacemakers,for they shall be called sons of
God.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
And 1 Peter.
4.
Above all, keep loving oneanother earnestly, since love
covers a multitude of sins.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So it's not just about smoothing things over on
the surface, but about genuinelyworking towards a better
relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Preparing that connection Exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What about our aim before upholding bargains or
agreements?
Here, the aim is personalintegrity being unwavering in
our commitment to our word, nomatter what the other person
does.
And Matthew 5 comes up againhere Let your yes be yes and
your no be no.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Right.
So it's about establishingourselves as someone who can be
relied upon.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, being a person of your word.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Exactly All right.
So then, what about our aimbefore engaging in service?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Here, the aim should be to serve selflessly and
humbly, without any expectationof reward or recognition.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And there are some great scriptures that really
drive this point home.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, like Matthew 23 , which says but whoever would
be great among you must be yourservant.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right and Philippians 2,.
Let each of you look not onlyto his own interests, but also
to the interests of others.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
So the focus shouldn't be on what you can get
out of it.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
But on the act of service itself.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Doing it out of love and compassion.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, so lastly, what should our aim be before
seeking blessings or recognition?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
This one ties back to what we were talking about
earlier.
The aim should be to serve witha pure heart, seeking God's
approval above all else.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Not the approval of other people.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Right, and Matthew 6 is really central here.
Beware of practicing yourrighteousness before other
people in order to be seen bythem, for then you will have no
reward from your Father, who isin heaven.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
It all comes back to that internal motivation yeah,
who are you trying to please?
Exactly.
So.
We've covered mindset, we'vecovered aim.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Now let's move into practice okay, the p and m a p
so how do we actually put theseprinciples into action?
All right.
So, starting with settlingdisputes, the practice is to
actively choose forgiveness andreconciliation, even if it's a
gradual process.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Because sometimes those feelings don't just
disappear overnight.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Exactly, and Colossians 3 encourages us to
bear with each other and if onehas a complaint against another,
forgive each other.
As the Lord has forgiven you,so you also must forgive.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And we've already mentioned Matthew 5 about being
peacemakers.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right.
So it's about making thatconscious decision to let go of
resentment.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Even if it takes time .
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, it's an ongoing practice.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Absolutely so.
How about practicing theseprinciples before upholding
bargains?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Here, the practice is to consistently act with
integrity.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Fulfilling our commitments without expecting
anything in return.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And the scriptures that come up here are a familiar
one.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Letting your yes be yes.
And Luke 16,.
One who is faithful in a verylittle is also faithful in much,
and one who is dishonest in avery little is also dishonest in
much.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So it's about building a reputation of
trustworthiness.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, being someone whose word means something.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Exactly Okay.
So then, how about practicingthese principles before engaging
in service?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Here the practice is to serve selflessly.
Okay, Motivated by love andcompassion, not by personal gain
.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And again we see those familiar scriptures.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, philippians.
Two about counting others moresignificant than yourselves.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And Matthew 23,.
The greatest among you shall beyour servant.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So making selfless service a regular part of our
lives.
So making selfless service aregular part of our lives.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, a natural expression of who we are.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, and finally, how do we practice these
principles before seekingblessings?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
The practice is to serve with a heart that's
focused on God's approval, noton seeking recognition from
others.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
And Matthew 6 comes up again here.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Right, but when you give to the needy, do not let
your left hand know what yourright hand is doing, so that
your giving may be in secret.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
It's about shifting our focus from external
validation to internal integrity.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, and the chapter actually adds one more practice
before trusting in God'sprovision, and the practice here
is to actively trust in God'stiming and provision as a
consequence of our selflessservice.
Okay, referencing Matthew 20and Philippians 4.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So it's about having faith that our actions will be
acknowledged by God.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, in his own way and time.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I like that.
So this whole renewal section,it really gives us a practical
way to put these principles intopractice.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, a roadmap for living them out.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Exactly Now.
The final section of thechapter is called Respond, so it
starts by saying that renewalemphasizes the importance of
engaging in meaningful dialogueto embrace shared truth that
transcend cultural and religiousboundaries.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Okay, so it's about finding common ground.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Exactly.
And then it goes on tohighlight four fundamental
truths that are found within thetext, and it connects those
truths to teachings from variousworld religions.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, so the first universal truth is the
importance of peace andreconciliation.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Which takes us back to that opening question.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Exactly about lingering resentment.
Christianity, islam, hinduism,buddhism and Judaism they all
emphasize the value of peace.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
They do.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Matthew 5.9 talks about peacemakers.
Quran 49.9 says if two partiesamong the believers fight, then
make reconciliation between them.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
The Bhagavad Gita, 2.12, says pleasures and pains
arise from the contact of thesenses with their objects.
They come and go like theseasons, therefore endure them
patiently.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Dhammapada 1.5 says hatred does not cease by hatred
at any time.
Hatred ceases by love.
This is an eternal law.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And Psalm 34, turn away from evil and do good.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Seek peace and pursue it.
So it's clear that the desirefor peace and harmony is a
universal human longing.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, it gets across cultural and religious
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Absolutely, and the chapter suggests a really
practical application for thistruth.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Fostering community dialogue to help heal racial
tensions.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
That's so important.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
All right.
So the second universal truthis the principle of integrity
and fulfilling one's commitments, and this idea of the righteous
man honoring his agreements.
It echoes teachings fromMatthew 5.37.
Let what you say be simply yesor no.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Quran 5.1.
Oh, you who have believed,fulfill all that is included in
the contracts.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Bhagavad Gita 16.3,.
Fearlessness, truthfulness,freedom from anger, nonviolence,
self-restraint, steadfastnessin knowledge, charity,
forgiveness, fortitude, absenceof hatred these are the
qualities of those born withdivine nature.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Dhammapada.
One should speak the truth andspeak words that are gentle and
kind and that do not offend.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And Proverbs 20.7,.
The righteous who walks in hisintegrity.
Blessed are his children afterhim.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So keeping your word, being a person of integrity.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's a universally valued principle.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, it forms the foundation of trust.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Exactly, and the real world application suggested
here is maintaining ethicalconduct at work even when others
aren't.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That can be tough, All right.
What about the third universaltruth?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So this one is the importance of selfless service
and fulfilling our obligationsto others, and the idea of
serving without demandingcompensation.
This is reflected in teachingsfrom Matthew 20.26.
But whoever would be greatamong you must be your servant.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Quran 17.24.
And lower to them the wing ofhumility out of mercy and say my
Lord, have mercy upon them, asthey brought me up when I was
small.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Bhagavad Gita, 9.22.
But those who worship me withdevotion, meditating on my
transcendental form.
To them I carry what they lackand preserve what they have.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Dhammapada 6.3.
To avoid all evil, to cultivategood and to cleanse one's mind
that is the teaching of theBuddhists.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And Talmud Avot 1.2.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
So giving without expecting anything in return.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
It's a central theme in so many different traditions,
and the example given here isvolunteering at a food bank.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
A simple yet powerful way to serve, absolutely
Volunteering, at a food bank.
A simple yet powerful way toserve Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then the final universal truth is the
importance of seeking a higherpurpose or approval beyond human
recognition.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And this aligns with teachings from Matthew 6.2.
Thus, when you give to theneedy sound, no trumpet before
you, as the hypocrites do in thesynagogues and in the streets,
that they may be praised byothers.
Truly, I say to you, they havereceived their reward.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Sayyid Muslim.
Whoever seeks knowledge andacts upon it only to compete
with the scholars or to arguewith the foolish or to attract
the attention of the people,allah will throw him into
hellfire.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Bhagavad Gita, 3.19,.
Therefore, without beingattached to the fruits of
activities, one should act as amatter of duty, for by working
without attachment one attainsthe supreme.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Dhammapada 8.3.
He who does what is wholesome,who keeps the precepts and
speaks the truth, who ministersto his parents and supports his
wife and children, and who ispure in his livelihood, he
indeed gives a great gift.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And Talmud Barakat 9.5,.
Rabbi Yohanan said whoeverfulfills the Torah in poverty
will ultimately fulfill it inwealth, and whoever violates the
Torah in wealth will ultimatelyviolate it in poverty.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So it's about focusing on inner motivation,
seeking divine favor overworldly praise.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And the real world application suggested here is
helping others without seekingany kind of acknowledgement.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yes, doing it out of the goodness of your heart.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Exactly so.
It's really amazing to see howall of these different
traditions converge on thesefundamental principles.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, it really highlights their importance.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It does.
It suggests that these aren'tjust religious ideas.
They're essential truths thatcontribute to a more
compassionate and harmoniousworld.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So, as we wrap up this deep dive into chapter 79
of the BFG handbook, Forgivingdebt, yeah, forgiving debt.
I think it's clear that it'sabout so much more than just
resolving financial obligations.
Right, it's about letting go ofresentment, upholding our
commitments with integrity,embracing selfless service and
seeking a higher purpose in life.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And it's about recognizing that these
principles aren't confined toone specific religion or culture
.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Right.
They're universal truths thatcan guide us towards a more
fulfilling and meaningfulexistence.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, a life that's aligned with our deepest values.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Exactly so.
It really makes you think howmight consciously applying these
principles of forgiveness andselfless service transform your
relationships and your own senseof purpose.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's a good question.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
It is, and we hope this deep dive has given you
some food for thought.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.