August 10, 2024 • 62 mins
In this episode of The Bulletproof EntrepreneurTM, we sit down with John Dutton, a creative brand strategist, writer, and author of the novel "2084." John shares his journey from studying film in England to becoming a successful multi-faceted entrepreneur in Montreal.
He discusses the importance of fearlessness in pursuing opportunities, the value of embracing creativity in its broadest sense, and the benefits of diversifying one's professional pursuits. John challenges conventional wisdom about focusing on a single path, sharing how his success came from juggling multiple projects simultaneously.
John also offers a fresh perspective on measuring success, cautioning against an overemphasis on financial metrics. He advocates for a more holistic view of achievement that values personal growth, creativity, and social impact. In the face of advancing AI technology, John emphasizes the irreplaceable value of human connections and collaborative work.
He leaves us with a powerful reminder that our true superpower as entrepreneurs lies in our ability to connect with others and work together effectively. This episode provides valuable insights for anyone looking to navigate the complex landscape of modern entrepreneurship while maintaining a focus on personal fulfillment and societal impact.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
All right, everyone.
Welcome to another exciting edition of the Bulletproof Entrepreneur podcast.
My guest today is John Dutton.
He's the founder of the discomfort Zone
newsletter on substack
is a creative brand strategist writer and author.
His new book is titled 2084.
It was released in April of 2024 and I'm
(00:25):
pleased to have him here on the show today to
tell us a little bit about yourself.
He's an entrepreneurial Journey as well as
some excerpts from his
new fiction book 2084.
So with that said John welcome to the podcast.
Yeah.
Thanks cheese.
Great.
John so let's get into it.
So tell me a little bit about yourself and your
(00:45):
entrepreneurial Journey because looking at LinkedIn
and looking at your bio, you've
done quite a bit over the years and it's
not very easy to
put you in a particular box when you want to
say, are you a writer or your copywriter
or you or what?
It's not very easy to
just box you in?
So how did your career evolved over the years?
(01:07):
Yeah.
I did evolve.
I wouldn't want to
be boxed in although you know, there's a You too, I
guess I've been working long enough that at one point you
do a bunch of different things.
And if you're any good at them, well, you know, it's
sort of all adds up and
then and then people like to I guess they like to
put people in boxes maybe you suffer from the same thing if
(01:28):
people might think of you as you know,
one particular thing goes
right or whatever it
is, right and that you don't exactly want to
be want to evolve as well.
Right?
So it's an interesting question, but
obviously I've been alive longer than you
unless you look spectacular.
Early young pretty sure I've been alive longer than you.
So at one point you do a lot of different things, right?
So I'm originally from England over been in Montreal and I
(01:52):
grew up kind of wanting to
be a writer.
I was my first like you're like 8 9 10 years
old.
What do you want to
be?
I would have said a journalist to
be honest with you.
And as soon as I started really understanding doing communication
studies really understanding what the reality of the press.
Was especially in Britain it was so shitty.
(02:16):
That was like I don't want to
do that.
That's terrible.
It seemed like they just ruined people's lives all the time.
It didn't seem like there was much positive going on there.
And then I discovered Cinema was always just a TV addict like
most people in Britain, but I
did a degree in cinema and that
led me to you know, get a bunch of skills under my
(02:39):
belt that I could actually apply in the real.
World and I moved to Montreal right
after getting my degree.
So I just went out to
try to get a job in the field of TV or movies
as either director or an editor which was insanely ambitious because you
know the typical thing you tell people kids starting out is start
(03:03):
at the bottom and
work your way up and that
is perfectly good advice.
So I was either too dumb or
too ambitious or whatever it was I was Now I'm going
to
be you know that director like which is it's completely I
mean, of course you can be in the sense that if you
like, I don't know Spielberg or somebody
started doing their their movies.
(03:23):
They got some financing from friends and family
and they make stuff.
Yeah, that's one that's one way of starting from the
bottom as a director.
Right?
But I was trying to find a job and it was like
the the late 80s was not at the economy was terrible and
lots
of the western world, but you
know, In particular where I was looking in Montreal and I
(03:44):
was very very fortunate and I
think people have to understand any any story of that.
He entrepreneur it's it's there's so much Fortune involved
in it because
when you when you're hearing the person it's because they're
the ones who it's survivorship bias is that is the
cognitive bias that of that right?
(04:05):
It's like you're only hearing from people who work for
there's a bunch of other people could have done the exact
same things.
That didn't work.
So I mean, you know only take so much for my story
or any
particular story.
I would say but there was a they used to
be a music TV channel in Quebec called Music Plus, you might
(04:26):
have heard of much music and and everybody's
heard of MTV.
This was the French Canadian version of MTV basically and they
were opening a studio in Montreal at the exact time that I
was going around looking for a job and I
had directed a music video as part of my degree.
gree, and I kind of like didn't exactly explain to people
(04:47):
that the show real that I was showing them was just done
a university.
It was it was done in Britain and I
just said this is what I did in Britain, right?
But the quality was good enough that it convinced them to
hire.
The director and and an Editor to be that was my second
gig.
Sorry.
The First cake was editing the English version of a CBC TV
(05:08):
show that was shot in dual language English and French
and they hired me to edit a couple of the English language
episodes of That So, I
was conceived me super fortunate to
get those jobs and then the downside of that good fortune because
I
was then directing live interviews with Huge International artists like all kinds
(05:32):
of people.
It was crazy like Radiohead before they
were famous Alanis like almost almost you deem it.
Like it wasn't just all all in Montreal in the 80s
or
late 80s.
Yeah.
Well, I work this is this is the point I was going
to
say was it was so fun to
do that live TV is a huge adrenaline rush because it's
(05:53):
life you make a mistake which we did because we
were all pretty young the people people who are hired If you
make a mistake, it would be seated.
Like it's literally it's too late.
It's gone.
It's out there everybody everybody just saw you did right and it's
not life or death, you know, but it's still it's
still a pretty high stress environment, but you
(06:14):
get a kick out of it and you're
also having fun with a bunch of other young people and
you're
you know, you have like Annie Lennox of the arithmetics or
meatloaf
or like really huge names.
You know, you're directing interviews with oil performances, right?
They would come in and they
would perform in the studio.
(06:35):
So basically I got my dream too soon because
then I I stayed there too long, which is I think a
good thing to
consider if you have had some success and you're
younger is don't let success kill your ambition because
in reality I should have done that for like maximum five years
(06:57):
and I
did it for 10 years, you know, no regrets.
It's fine.
But like one point I was like, oh, yeah.
Okay.
I'm gone.
I can't keep doing this, you know, like forever we've
got to
do something else.
So I moved into the commercial production Department of the same TV
station.
(07:18):
So they would have advertisers who wanted to
make ads that kind of had the vibe of the station.
So I mean, of course any Advertiser could just buy time for
their ads on this on the channel, but some people
wanted to actually produce adds a bit like a host read ad
for a podcast would be right you get that that Vibe of
(07:40):
the podcast right?
So you will get the vibe of the station.
And so that's when I started actually writing and
directing TV commercials and I did that for a couple of years.
But in the meantime, I was writing stuff.
I wrote a first novel that has never been published which I
suspect most people's first moles should not be although I
(08:02):
think I could pick it up and
make it better.
Now.
Maybe I wrote old self publishing way back in the day.
No.
No, there was no No, no, I didn't exist.
Like it wasn't published.
I sent out a mailing out like a huge heavy thing on
this to agents,
(08:23):
right?
And yeah, I mean they were they were right to reject it
because I
was it was not that good.
Anyway, I also wrote a stage play that was produced in Montreal.
So I was doing creative fiction writing.
(08:43):
Whether it be literature drama and
at the same time doing, you know TV commercials, so I
was kind of already outside of a box as it were right
doing to
grow things.
So, how about I thought for one second.
Why did you because now you're getting into the meat of
(09:06):
the creativity right?
I'm doing a lot of good work, but you
finish college in England and
then you moved immediately.
Into Canada Montreal what caused you to
make that move because I wasn't around back then but I
wouldn't expect that, you know, Canada and Montreal
where like hot places for like, you know, yeah, they weren't
(09:30):
no no.
No, it wasn't and I
mean I do it's interesting to play the counterfactual in your
in your head and
sort of say what would have happened if I'd stayed I
can I can run that.
Sighs for what would have happened if I hadn't studied film
as well?
I could have studied the stuff at University and
what would happen then?
I mean, you know, it's interesting but you
(09:52):
know, you can't redo it.
So the reality for my drill was I I actually I think
I would have left England no matter
what because I wasn't it.
It was the it was the Britain of Margaret Thatcher's government.
That was the it wasn't a sort of I don't
(10:14):
want to
say it's almost like it wasn't a friendly place which
I mean you can turn on your TV this week and and
almost have the same opinion because
without getting too political they just finished 14 years of conservative neoliberal.
Moment and look what's happening to to the society there,
right?
It's it's a different view of society that that just
(10:39):
certainly brought into Britain and
in parallel Reagan was To America that that doesn't emphasize social
values at all, Adam emphasizes individualism and competition
which, you know some dose of that is great, but you
(10:59):
know, To have a cohesive Society doesn't really work that way.
It's not even realistic.
It's kind of naive in that people work.
That way they don't they don't work that way at
all.
So I thought I would leave it's also, you know, the
weather is horrible in England like we were just talking before before
you
started recording about the weather in Canada.
(11:20):
I mean good grief, like it's like gray for four months
during the it's so depressing and
dampened horrible and it's like, I mean, I know I was
Was born and
grew up there, but you know you left where you were I
haven't asked you that question.
But like sometimes you just want to
leave.
Well, there's no reason particularly.
Why where you're born fits with who you
(11:41):
are like, so yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna
get out of there and I
thought I might go to Germany
or somewhere.
I got I studied German at school.
I thought I might do that and
then I met a French Canadian girl.
So without getting into all of the personal story.
I had an opportunity through her to
move here basically to Opera That's why specifically mature and
(12:01):
believe me people were telling me it was a ridiculous, you know
idea because it
was the nfb.
Then at the national film board all the people knew in Britain
was the national film Board of Canada and they
were like no cut lows that their jobs and
all this and I'm like, okay.
Well I'm going anyway, they had no idea that there was
this music TV station.
(12:22):
It was expanding or anything like which which is a there is
a bit of a lesson there, which is that, you know, you
can listen to people
but Listen, skeptically in the sense that well, what do they really
know?
Like they're talking about somewhere else like the yeah.
They didn't know what all they knew about where they learn
that and
then I could have listened to them
about that.
(12:42):
But in reality they were just wrong right there was working Montreal
and it
was it was cool, you know, possibly more than in London, but
like I said, the counterfactual is interesting if I'd have stayed
there who knows I could be Could be world famous now and
we
completely did.
(13:03):
You don't know real?
Yeah, because the thing is, you know is what are you were
there, you know, you studied from got some little experience before you
came all the way to Canada.
The scene was just emerging in Canada, right?
So you probably came from somewhere.
I was much more developed you've learned a lot and
then as the industry was building out in Canada were able to
(13:27):
like easily just use that you're you know, Yeah, possibly are
you made in school you have into a position where you probably
wouldn't have gotten if you had stayed in the UK.
I definitely wouldn't have they would have been possible but part
isn't it would have been impossible is a thing about British
culture, which is you know, there's there's a class system.
(13:50):
There's a hierarchy there's it's not as easy as
in North America to
just show up and and get somewhere you you know, it's
not as easy in France either.
It's things are stratified, right?
I'm not even sure.
I really even deserve the jobs that I got here.
(14:11):
Like it was it was a little bit crazy.
But I mean, I'm eternally grateful to the people
who gave me those opportunities because I
kind kind of tend to
act like that with young people is you got to
go on a bit of Faith, but you
look at somebody you get to
know them you see some potential and
then you say, okay.
Well, let's see what they can do.
(14:31):
They're not going to
be perfect far from perfect like the whole like a you know
that Doing Light TV and
making mistakes.
Like the whole crew was green, right because they
didn't actually have a budget to
hire people with experience is the other thing.
So, I mean it all worked out.
That's all I can say that but there's
(14:51):
yeah, there's no I don't think it's so
much.
I think it's a bit of a shame.
But whether you're from Britain or
from France cup of Canada and you
have a bit of an aura which you shouldn't do really
doesn't mean anything but you
have an accent and I see the same thing in French you
Montreal people come from France and it's
(15:14):
they have this sort of Aura of being professional somehow being
cultured being confident and
all this type of thing and British people
get that to completely undeserved because it's it's literally just
Just an accident or something,
right?
But I think that works in my favor as well.
(15:34):
Like honestly like I was born near Liverpool and the guy
was running the TV station with a fan of The Beatles.
So he thought that was cool.
And there was there's so much luck involved in this whole
thing.
Although you know, yeah, you have to put yourself out there.
It's a cliche to
say you make your own luck because that's
not how luck works at all but up by circumstances to
(15:57):
allow lock to happen, even if you Yes, keep on shooting at
one point.
You got to score a goal like that Things become cliched very
very quickly, but it's
true.
Well, I entrusted.
All right.
So why do we stop your talking about creativity launching your TV
show and
(16:18):
then starting right?
And so what happens from there?
Yeah.
So so I ended up leaving the TV station starting a small
Ad Agency with my girlfriend at the time who was a client.
Okay, that's how I met her.
She was a client of you know that the agency she had
been working for one in.
(16:38):
To produce tv ads, like I said with this Vibe of the
music TV station and I
was directing a series of ads that we shot across Canada was
really cool.
And then we were like, let's try this.
That was extremely entrepreneurial.
We did I kind of did that this is this goes against
everything anybody says and
maybe that's that was a problem, but I
(17:00):
kind of did three things at once like normally you should really
focus on one thing right and I
wouldn't tell somebody to
not focus on One thing but whatever
again stupidity or something we started an ad agency.
I started a production company with with a friend of mine who
(17:20):
had been my boss at the TV station in the commercial production
department and we
started this is going to sound
a bit crazy but a sponsored mural project to
beautify the city of Montreal because I
was sitting in a cafe one day and I'm
looking at this big.
Big giant like, you know 10-story High building.
(17:42):
That's just a brick wall back in the 80s.
There was a lot of parking there were a lot of parking
lots in Montreal where there used to
be a building maybe and something
got down or whatever they built something and there's
these just giant basically ugly walls, you know, and I'm
like, wow, there's loads of artists in Quebec.
There's all these walls.
How can we put the two together?
So I came up with this the idea for what I call
(18:02):
the the the biggest Art Gallery in the world and we
found a printer who would print ads for big shows in Vegas
there in Montreal the printer but
like in Vegas you need to
have ads that will withstand like intense Sun so they
don't fade if they're going to
(18:23):
be up for a long time.
And we wanted to have very high quality, you know images on
these things that wouldn't deteriorate in any way.
So they're On this thick vinyl they have this aluminum frame
that would entrust it was a huge expensive thing.
So we need it.
So the idea was to
get sponsors.
So big sponsors would have their name at the bottom of this
(18:45):
thing, but it
would be a local artist.
It was this whole thing and it
and it worked if we had like a dozen of these things
up around around the city and the
only reason it actually stopped working a because a
political reason with the city that the submitted City kind of what's
the word for that kind of became a bunch of different
boroughs Rose instead of 11 whole city so suddenly it was very
(19:07):
complicated to
get permission to do to do these things.
So anyway bunch of different stuff.
That was that was more of a that wasn't really a
money-making activities me kind of was but
like it wasn't the point of it right that point.
It was really just purely a social thing of like, hey, this
is win win win, you know a sponsor gets their name up.
(19:28):
Look they look pretty good because they're
making the city better local artist gets their picture.
Like 20 Stories the city and the people
just walking around get to
see some nice picture instead of a brick wall.
Right?
So it actually worked we did it.
We had a website and everything
and yeah, that was kind of cool.
Right and so did all these things at once which is which
(19:51):
is a terrible idea really to
do several things at once but I
can't I can't help it.
So yeah, that's what that's what I did for quite
a while so You
did the multiple projects all at once was it?
Well, obviously, it's more stressful but
was it more high-risk to the point
where either one of them could fail at any time because we
(20:13):
have juggling multiple things or
is it?
How did it work to
make things?
Right?
I don't think it's a question of stress least not
for me.
Anyway, I don't think stress is really an issue.
I don't think it's even.
(20:34):
Focus that's an issue really because
if you can focus on different things, I don't know.
I'm not at the world's biggest fan of Elon Musk, but
he
certainly focuses on a bunch of different things at once and succeeds
to a greater or lesser extent, you know, you can say that
this is this thing's failing that things failing and you
might be right but like he's done a bunch of stuff
(20:54):
right?
So I don't think that that's that's the thing
right is that there's these these counter examples where you can
say look, You can do more than one thing and I
understand why people say Focus I get it.
I completely get it.
But the downside of that is you're putting all your eggs
in one basket, right?
And if that basket if you drop the basket and the break
(21:16):
the eggs break.
Well, that's it.
You know, you're done whereas if you do a couple of
things it's a tricky line to
walk that right?
And so what I would say, the real answer is the reason
that I am no longer doing any of those those things is
really economic reasons, like not not because
(21:39):
of lack of focus or
stress.
It's just like I don't think you know, we didn't
have like a bit of Business Development person for the Ad
Agency, you know, we just thought we could just do the ads
kind of thing.
I was naive really to
think that way so we did it.
We did good campaigns, but we
didn't we weren't making business happen, right?
(21:59):
That wasn't my job to
do that at all.
I was the creative director, so That
was why that business eventually didn't didn't really work why
I started working freelance as a copywriter.
In fact, the production company was really a similar type of thing.
But like, you know, it's tough to run a production company.
(22:19):
Like there's a lot of competition in any given City to
make that work as a business and I
don't think that my partner was business-minded.
He was a producer and so I
think it was it was a similar kind of like failing.
I'm not a I mean I might be strategic for other
(22:41):
people doing creative strategy, you know for Brands and stuff,
but that's not business strategy.
Right?
I don't have an MBA or anything
and I don't think it's something that it's not
even something that kind of concerns me and
if it had of concerned me maybe things would have gone better.
But like I don't really I mean this is going to
(23:04):
sound
weird it we're talking about Bulletproof entrepreneurs, I don't do
things from for money.
So if you're not going to
do it for money, well, then you probably won't Point not
going to
make any money.
It's kind of pretty straightforward.
But I mean, I think people need to
think very very clearly about the reasons that they're doing things.
(23:26):
You can be an entrepreneur of but
like if you're and
of course you can measure success if you have a company in
terms of the balance sheet, and
of course, that's The way to
measure the success, right but
in terms of your personal success, if you're measuring it in
terms of money, I think you're probably making a mistake because
(23:48):
you
have one life unless you believe.
Otherwise you have one life and there's
more important things than money.
It's as simple as that right money is really good for
like exchanging goods with people that you don't know that that's
what it's
good for.
It's a measure of value or anything.
(24:09):
It's not even a great way of necessarily paying for services
even write like this is we can dig a big a big
hole in you know, start talking about capitalism, but
like theirs dear subtly different ways of doing things that we see
(24:30):
all the time but we
don't think about it in terms of people will do things
for influences or something
where there's no money Changing Hands what whatsoever right?
Like that's still an economic system, right?
You can do a favor for you.
Let's do some value to it.
There's loads of value.
That's just it but it's
hard to measure so we
have a we have a system with a with you know stocks
(24:52):
in the stock market and
quarterly reports and this anything where it's people's jobs to
be Shoot to produce measurable results, but the whole system gets.
Incredibly biased towards that one way of measuring success.
That's the problem with it.
(25:13):
Right and I think that actually causes loads of other extraneous problems.
So it's it's a I'm not like again, I
don't have an MBA.
I don't study economics ever but it
seems pretty clear to me that there's a bunch of shit
going on right now that is due to that
(25:36):
bias where money becomes the the measure of value and success.
SS for human beings really, you know, I couldn't give a
crap whether Elon Musk
has x billion right?
I'm going to still have an opinion on him as a
human being it doesn't mean it's the tiniest thing but
for but a lot of people do buy into that, right they
(25:58):
look at a just a number and
if you want to be a number, okay be a number it's
not when you put it like that.
It's like you can see how
in humid it is right like I don't think anybody really
really wants to
be a number of deep down inside, you know, so that's
what you're
doing.
If we all need we all live in a system where we
(26:21):
need money to
buy stuff to eat, you know live somewhere over here bills and
pay rent and everything.
Yeah.
Yeah for sure.
But like I'm not saying get rid of everything.
I'm not saying, you know communism is good or something.
I'm not saying that at all, but like I'm just
saying because communism communism
uses money to it's not so so it's
(26:42):
not that I'm just saying that there's a lot
of cultural emphasis and there's
any his Chi I've seen a change in my lifetime
right on those numbers and
good things can be produced by capitalism and the exchange
of you know, goods and stuff.
But like there's a there's a bunch of negative outcomes.
(27:03):
I mean, you can look at you know, the opioid crisis or
something
right?
Like it's just one I plucked out of thin air, right
that's driven by money.
Right, it's driven by a corporation logs everything right he stuff,
you know, and I'm
not anti Pharmaceuticals or anything
but it's just look like just just like it's too
(27:23):
easy to
get caught up in a system and
not be able to step back and say what's look at
what's really happening, right?
So that was a big No-No.
It's okay.
It's sets of the whole story better.
So it's perfectly.
Okay.
So your longest-running gig is your freelance copywriter, right?
(27:44):
How many years?
Have you been doing that?
Yeah.
Well, so I did that for over 10 years after leaving grad
kind of gradually leaving my own Ad Agency because
of lack of really lack of clients and
in doing that for ten years of Course you get loads of
clients and you
meet loads of people you acquire more skills.
(28:05):
You start working on some brand stuff and I
already had you know, a kind of a creative background that was
beyond just writing because
of doing TV directing and
editing and so I did yes, I did that for over 10
years.
Then I was hired by one of my clients a couple of
(28:25):
my clients ask me the same year to
be creative director in it.
In agencies kind of mid-size agencies in Montreal and I
declined both of them those offers because I
was pretty happy being freelancer.
I mean I was earning a good living and it's
and it's a it's a fun gig because
(28:47):
obviously the free the free part of Freelancers you Your Own Boss
you control your own time your own energy and that
kind of thing but also because it was it was actually, you
know profitable it was so lucrative Gig if you can if you
can do it, right, so I
said no and then I was convinced to
(29:09):
join one of them.
By being explained that the idea was to
expand outside Montreal that they wanted to to
create an international Network and I
would be the VP of creation.
And this was this was a an interesting challenge, right?
This is like, okay now we're building something unusual in Indy
(29:31):
in Montreal is going to
go International and we did we did it.
You know, we went we open an office in Lyon.
We open one in Hong Kong and we
open one in Toronto.
So it's even three continents not just you know International, right?
And then the the kind of sad thing and it
was sad for many many reasons with the pandemic happened and
(29:54):
then like a lot of agencies budgets get cut right and you
Juggling
is this layoffs and that kind of thing and
eventually I was a victim of that whole cycle because I
was laid off to and then I went back to
being freelance because you know, so it's like so that gig
has a gap in the middle but
(30:15):
is still going on the good thing about that was many there
was many good things about taking that job and it
was a you know, six years.
I was working there with a bunch of great people.
We did a bunch of great stuff.
That's all that's all fantastic but I
also learned some extra skills to because
of working on brand development and
(30:35):
strategy.
So, you know, I have more strings to my bow now,
so that's that's one reason.
I would say to people don't.
You know don't be afraid of saying no to something
but also don't be afraid to
say yes to something because you know, even though it might seem
afterwards.
Well, okay, that didn't quite pan out how I
(30:56):
thought chances are you're going to
have learned something actually even failure.
You'll learn you'll learn something.
Yeah, because what I notice that I'm not this down based
on what you were saying, is that for someone who studied film
you had a career doing so many different.
Things where it doesn't relate to film
(31:18):
what it relates more to creativity
and being able to think apply yourself learn on the job and
then create an offer or service
to support some economic value for compact without creating ads movie TV,
whatever it is.
So does that mean that tip for example someone listening to this
(31:39):
thinking?
Hey, I'm trying to
start this company.
I'm in business school or
accounting School nursing school.
Drive Focus only on just developing my one skill set or
do I try and build more of creativity and
use my hard skill plus more creativity
to find ways to you know, continue to stay economically viable because
(32:02):
that's the main thing.
We're trying to like teach people in the our conversation.
Like how do you stay resilient?
We're like you said on TV the world is, you know
in a very block State everything is uncertain lots of Laughs evil
from the pandemic.
So now with AI and everything, it's
just getting more frustrating for people to
figure out.
(32:23):
What can I do to
make a living.
So the true Lionel creativity came through your background, but I
want you to say something in your yeah.
That was very very good point.
I would say to anybody create the thing is creativity can be
a scary word for people because they'll
that it means they have to be able to
(32:43):
draw pictures or come up with ideas.
Has four stories or something, right?
Yeah, those things are creative but
like creativity is Is just finding new it's opening doors to
things
right?
It's finding new ways to
do things to seeing things a different way.
(33:03):
Okay, and there is huge value in that for any organization that
you're trying to either start yourself
or work for right?
It is a bit reflected in I won't lose the thread
of what you're what you're
asking but The fact that I study film was very helpful
because it
wasn't just because you can study film.
(33:25):
I know you're doing is watching movies, right which is totally
fine to
do study film.
That's cool movies are interesting but
50% of the degree that I had was practical it was making
movies, right and
actually doing photography involves a minor.
So I learned how to edit I learned how to shoot The
(33:45):
actually oddly the writing part was not super in-depth produce.
All of these different skills are actually really good skills to
apply in life like if you're editing.
The the sort of like Lehman's vision of editing is that you're
cutting things.
So it's called cutting right you're cutting things out somehow
(34:07):
and yet that
can happen when you're editing but really editing is building something
right?
It's taking lots of building blocks and
in French in French.
It's called Montage which is a much better word for it
because it
means montage is putting things together and
making something.
Okay, you're amassing something right like a montage like you're
building a mountain like a mom, you know, right so you're
(34:29):
putting these things together.
Whether right and like puzzle pieces and stuff and I do you
move this thing over here and it
changes how you you view it.
And of course young people today have all this ability on their
phones to
do to edit.
Right?
Look.
It's it's second nature, right, which is great, but it
certainly was not at all when I was a kid not even
(34:50):
close like it wasn't impossible in fact almost to
do so, I would just say that the building blocks that I
had in studying what I studied actually We were multi-dimensional and
gave me this ability to
look at things through different lenses to
be able to open doors more easily to
(35:10):
new possibilities, which is in a very very wide sense what creativity
is so if you two get back to what you
were saying because I agree it's no different from for me.
The the everything is in flux.
It's hard to know how to, you
know, find ways to make a living to make Connections to do
(35:31):
you think short-term medium-term and long-term
and all this kind of thing.
There's no there's no one recipe to that.
Right and unfortunately and fortunately luck does play a part.
But again, the more tools you have in your tool belt the
more doors you open or this type
of things, whatever metaphor you want to
use the better your odds are going to
be and I'd say yes get it get a real-world skill
(35:56):
if it's accounting if it's forget whether a i Do
it
or not because AI is never going to
be as good as a really good human and I
sincerely believe that like it at least LMS.
Let's say right and and diffusion models for image or video generation
(36:17):
that they're getting better all the time clearly, but the
the the really really talented people will always be better and they're
all there.
What they're going to do is just use those tools anyway
to
make It even better stuff.
In fact, in fact, really AI is making us more intelligent.
Like I wrote a piece about it like two weeks ago.
(36:39):
It's not making us less smart because it
might be easy to think.
Well, we don't even need to
use our brains anymore.
Right?
We have these things to
do all the stuff.
We don't need to
make take photos or whatever.
It is, make pictures or
write emails or something right actually in reality.
What we have is the ability.
(37:00):
E to access all of human words or pictures
or whatever it is.
And of course it's there's more ethical and
legal aspects to that which are which you're not fantastic this
bunch of stuff being just stolen by giant corporations.
But if you're a person using it if you have it,
if you don't have an ethical objection to
(37:21):
just using it as long as you're not passing it off
as your work when it was 100% AI which is of course
completely unethical to and You'll
get found out pretty quick.
There's no point doing it.
Right in reality.
You just made yourself.
Wait smarter, right and way more skilled, you know, so I
think that's the way to
(37:42):
look specifically at AI but
more generally I think creativity is a kind of just a mindset
to
being curious learning using your imagination.
It's to not being frightened.
I mean frightened is a very L word, but that's
actually what people are you should be who think that they
(38:04):
aren't creative their place.
They're just yeah.
Yeah, the people are creative and
just Fearless because you can look at like imagine some of the
most creative people of all time like Prince or David Bowie
just to take let's take musicians right or
pick a so, it's literally right and
obviously the some of these people can have a sketchy personal lives
or whatever
and you know, that's that can be true right but They
(38:28):
weren't afraid to actually maybe you could say prince everything.
He did was great.
But like if you look at David Bowie had a bunch of
stuff.
It was kind of weird or
like he what's Admiral about that guy was he had no
fear he went and
did a he acted on stage, you know, one point on in
on Broadway and he
did TV, and he wasn't that good an actor to
(38:51):
be honest.
Like you really not like very good but my god,
the guy was Fearless.
He did it anyway and And
if he had if he'd have been a little shit, he
wouldn't he they wouldn't have hired him to
do it at all.
Right.
We we see that kind of thing.
So I would say just don't be afraid to
try things to open your mind to open doors and they're
like, I really like that that metaphor of opening doors, you know,
(39:17):
because
if you're if you're scared of what's behind the
door Well, okay, you're in you're in you're in
some sort of Thriller a horror movie or something
and we but that's not but that's not life.
Like like like you open the doors and it's
and it's of course new stuff is scary right like
different new stuff is scary and and that's
(39:38):
a big psychological reality for people for human beings.
Of course people don't like it when you know, suddenly there's
I don't know, you know.
people have something like oh, it's different scary like who pick
a thing that people I don't know conservative people complain about
(40:00):
A re just scared of something that's completely different to what
they're
reacting.
Like.
Yeah.
It's just a gut thing that they don't like, you
know, it's might be aesthetic but it's
basically just fear right if something yeah, yeah really obvious.
That's what it is and that they're
that reality for those people is real like it doesn't
(40:21):
mean necessarily that they're horrible people right?
Like that's that's the way to bridge
that that sort of polarized Gap there is Is yeah cause it's
scary that when things change and when things
are different right it's scary when some stranger comes up to
you can't make out what's going on with them, you
know, they're wearing something weird or a
little weird.
(40:41):
Okay true.
But like, you know that this is the world we live in
so you
got to get with it, right?
So yeah, so I hope that answered the question went well dude.
We just have to be Fearless.
Their knowledge of the mantas right building things without yeah.
(41:06):
It's not easy to
always rely on what you know, it's not easy because everybody's
making it
up as they go along.
Nobody knows what's going on.
Yeah, and I mean look I was and I'm
not saying this to
like Pat myself on the back, but
like I was Fearless when I moved here again, you could call
it overconfidence young white guy, but
(41:29):
what a surprise Is that too much confidence?
Right like yeah, okay, but
still that was the reality that I was Fearless you could call
it stupidity.
You could naivety whatever you want, but it
was definitely fearless and it worked out right?
So that's what I would say to people
of course.
It might be you might have a higher Bart of cross if
(41:51):
you if you've emigrated from from a country where your you
look different.
Let's just say right like I did not look different.
Although my barrier was French actually, I had a barrier and I
had to overcome that fear if we didn't speak right I
spoke for me.
Well the trouble is is that the friend she learned in England
(42:11):
is not the french-speaking Quebec.
I don't know if you have used do you speak French?
Oh, okay.
Well, that's not a little bit.
I learned some skills.
You have you been to Quebec?
Yes, I have so you probably heard people speaking and
being like hoof.
That's all.
Yeah, exactly.
So I learn a thing and I'm
(42:32):
like I was good at French at school and I
come here and I'm like what the heck?
Well is this language that everybody speaking and it's
just it's just a kind of really old French actually
that hasn't evolved the same way as it has in Europe
or Africa
or other places, right?
It's it's it's cool, but it's
completely different.
So that was the problem was like oh shit.
(42:55):
I gotta my gym a pearl.
John is suddenly that's it.
Like I'll say whatever I say and
then they'll say something I can't understand so I
had to get beyond that.
That was my barrier.
That was my the thing that I had to be especially Fearless
about that was difficult.
So everybody has a thing I guess and it's
(43:17):
not easy.
Yeah and some days it's harder than others and that
kind of thing.
But also you don't know the other thing I would say
to
try to encourage people is at least having been on the earth
for a while now
is because if I could go back in time machine right and
see a younger me a different different periods of life when maybe
(43:38):
I was struggling a bit, you know, so I
don't want me to
make it sound like this has been one up and
up, you know, Kerr line going up all the time.
No, not at all obviously, right?
Like again I'd have, you know, an agency that fails and
these
kind of things right the mural project that had to end because
the city Amalgamated
and write these things happen, right?
(43:59):
So it's the question is.
Okay.
So what I was going to say was if I had a
time machine I would go back in time and
tell my younger self at different points.
Don't worry.
It'll probably it'll turn out fine.
I mean, of course we can't guarantee that but
like I can go back and
more or less say that like try not to
worry so much on average.
It's going to work out.
(44:20):
Yeah, there's a good chance.
The reality is we don't know the future that so the
scary side of the flux right is Is the unknown but the
good side is the unknown to because there
can be all kinds of good things coming up that we also
don't know about and we
can't we can't rely on them.
It's all you can sit on laurels and
(44:41):
say well everything's going to
be fine.
You can't, you know, you can't manifest stuff just based
on nothing right like you got to
work at stuff put yourself out there.
But the main thing that you have to do I think also
is what we're
doing now is Conversations with people right get to
(45:01):
know people have conversations.
We're all much much stronger together than as individuals, right?
And and I think it's great.
You do this podcast, you know, this isn't an effort to
reach out to people to share things with people to connect people.
It's fantastic that kind of thing.
(45:22):
Right and we have, you know, the downside of the the, you
know, some of the stuff that's gone.
Non over the last couple of decades.
The downside is a bunch of negative outcomes of social media.
The upside is it is actually easy to connect
with people, you know, you're not stuck in your little town
(45:46):
and it's
not just digital.
It's also, you know transporter something right we can we can
go for it was it was a long way to
go 100 miles from where I lived when I was a kid.
It was it was super fit.
Mi was super far right?
There's a different way of thinking about things now and
obviously with digital connections.
(46:09):
The world is the world doesn't you know is it's
the same distance to Australia's
is you know next door.
So that's that's the other thing is is the connections
to
write like I would say to people
try to do genuine networking in the sense of not sales networking.
(46:29):
I mean, that's fine.
If you're trying to
do sales, that's your job.
That's fine.
But I'm just saying honor him.
I hope you don't know again you open a door.
There's somebody or there's 10 people standing behind that door
and to
help you and maybe they're going to
help you in three years time that has happened to me
many times in my life even even doing business development for myself
(46:50):
when I was a freelance copywriter.
Sometimes things pay off two years later like you don't know
and they
can pay off big time like somebody, you know the email you
the phone you their message you whatever and it's
like.
Oh, yeah, I remember.
Well, you don't even remember you have to like look at
them up in your Gmail or
in your LinkedIn us wait like yeah, who are you again?
(47:12):
Oh, yeah, right, right.
Yeah.
It's all worth it in the end because the
the you never know factor, which is which is the the upside
of the unknown right is that you don't know in a
good way what things can work so I
would say connect with people too and and that's
and that's also a way of being creative because you
(47:33):
can always learn things from other people.
And as we start to wrap up the show, I want us
to
end on your book.
Oh, yes little girl about your book, right?
So I had an idea to
write a novel the same year that I was hired by the
the agency based on the idea that in 2084, which is the
(47:59):
obviously the 100th anniversary the Centenary of the mythical 1984 right of
George Orwell.
Where everything is this terrible surveillance State Perpetual war and
all this kind of thing.
My idea was in 2084.
There is a let's call it a country but it's
not exactly a country in the way we think of it
(48:20):
right now that where everything seems perfect and they
want to mark this Centenary to show how great things are in
contrast to this
fictional 1984, right?
So the basic idea was that was that there is this Utopia
(48:42):
and I
had the idea of having a setting it in this country called
the United corporations of Canada.
So it's a kind of endgame of neoliberal capitalism where things
are all corporatized.
Everything is there is no other government.
There's a board and that's
it.
There's a corporate board that decides things.
(49:02):
Okay the get elected everybody's a Older and everybody
has to just watch ads every day to
get a kind of universal basic income and you
can work if you want you don't have to it's
all seems fantastic, right and the story
set in Toronto.
So not far from where you are and
then because it's a story things are not what they seem
(49:28):
right?
So without giving away the story, you know, this is the basic
setting is this and the
main character There's two main characters a man who's a
sculptor who is hired by the United corporations of Canada to
create a piece to celebrate the Centenary.
Okay to show everybody how amazing life is life is good.
(49:50):
That's the kind of free, right.
The other main character is a woman who for basically Just for
kicks, but
also for sort of like online celebrity.
Does what she calls art thefts where she kind of hacks artworks
sort of big projects and
(50:10):
sort of live streams and she's
cool and this kind of thing.
So these two characters stories of course end up converging light.
So yeah, so I start writing this thing get hired have to
put it on ice for a while because
like I've got a big important corporate job.
We're building this agency Network, right and
then eventually, you know during the pandemic Like everybody yep bit more
(50:31):
time.
So I'm like, okay, I got it.
I got to get actually finish writing this I'd like a
third written and the
other reason that I had to finish it was because a bunch
of this stuff that I was in visiting for the future was
starting to
happen in real life.
And so it was getting frustrating because I'm
like I'm making up stuff but it's
happening.
So it doesn't look like I've even made it up
anymore.
So I gotta get it done like a great example is the
(50:53):
Apple Vision Pro, right?
Yes, which has little cameras.
So you see What you wearing?
I've never seen one in real life, but you
see somebody wearing one of these things and it
looks like there is right, but it's
not their eyes.
It's a video of their eyes, right?
It's cameras shooting their eyes and
then some pretty amazing.
Right ha nor it's on the screen some projected, but it's
(51:17):
on a screen right and
one of the key technological beaches of this world that I've
imagined is an expanded version of that thing.
Okay, so it's like Crap, like I got to
get this thing done.
So so yeah, so I got it.
I got it all written and Rewritten
and you know read by Beta readers and
(51:38):
then Rewritten again and this kind of thing and
then published a couple of months ago.
So yeah.
So I guess my second to the
last question is how did you get the skills to
write the book because I know a lot of people who are
with dream, you know.
Hey, I want to write a book.
I have my story.
(51:58):
I have a story then what were some things that helped you
write the book and
maybe added the book all what did you draw on in your
experience to
make the project happen?
Very good question.
I skipped a whole thing, which is this is my like seventh
book.
So so yeah, I already I have written it.
(52:22):
I mentioned I wrote a novel that has never seen the light
of day fine.
I wrote a bunch of short stories and I
self-published them as a kind of like test to
see how self-publishing worked about 15 years ago.
I want to say then I published a novel that I had
written in 2003.
(52:42):
That have that I had written in is a in a blog
format at the time.
So I was like constantly publishing a Blog knowing that I was
going to
put the whole thing together as a novel.
So it was a fictional character.
And in fact, a lot of people it was really publish a
lot of people thought that it was real like I would get
emails from people concerned about the character the main character and her
(53:03):
life
and I had to be like no.
No, it's it I'm giving you the scoop now, it's
just fiction right?
So I published that one then I just a Trilogy of young
adult kind of sci-fi fantasy novels and
then 2084.
So the answer for me is I already knew how to
(53:24):
write a book the answer for anybody else is there's loads
of ways to
write a book.
I mean, you know, there's podcasts out there.
There's also there's books there's all kinds of things
because there's
The the I guess really black and
white takes the definition of how to
write of and what an author is a fiction author is you're
(53:47):
either you either right you're a planner.
It's called a panther or a plan.
Okay.
So if you're a planner you plan the whole thing and
you
then you write it and
if you're a patsy you it's called that because you
write by the seat of your pants you just write you don't
know where it's
going right and some people can only do one and so
(54:08):
we
can only do the other.
I think that most people probably do a mix and I
do a mix like I think it's really hard to
write.
I think Stephen King does it and I
think that's why sometimes his books maybe don't work quite
so well, but I
think he's a pantser who doesn't always know how it's
going to end.
Right?
I think it's really a bit weird to
(54:29):
write a story not knowing kind of how it's
going to end.
I mean, I don't know it's not that well, I
guess it's fine.
Like who am I to
say?
It's not good but
like I want to know but I but I also want to
keep a little bit hidden from me when I'm
writing.
I don't want to
know exactly how it's going to end and 2084 is a
(54:52):
good example of that or my
previous books to is as you get there.
You know, you have a kind of Vega.
You could plot everything if you want it to and this
that's fine too.
Right?
I would find it.
Probably a little boring to
do that.
But like I get is if if you want to
do that do it, right, but I
find it interesting to have a kind of outline that you can
(55:14):
hang things on in a story.
And as you go, oh you get like it's what creativity
is you have new ideas all the characters you like.
Well, this character wouldn't do that.
Actually the thing you thought that they should do or you
needed them to do to make a Tori move somewhere you like.
You know what I'm trying too hard to
push them dip to make to do something.
(55:34):
In fact, they would do this and
then what would happen after that?
Right?
There's all kinds of there's all kinds of books and
you
know, if you're writing a thriller, maybe you want to
tightly plot it right like like no problem do that.
Right?
I like to leave it open a little bit and
sure enough the end of 2084 basically ends how I
imagined but the actual end ending the final fight chapter.
(56:00):
Is not something I'd imagined at all until after the first
draft even so that's kind of fun, you know.
So because I'm just thinking about the work I do writing
for clients and
writing for magazines.
I never write an outline when I'm
writing an article.
I literally just try to
rest as much as possible sit down, right and
(56:23):
then by the time I'm writing everything out I now add
it at the end and
say okay.
I need to move this up here.
I need to make this work.
I've never L and I
have another friend who's like he outlines every single post every
single every thought is like bullet points on and it
doesn't work for me because I
(56:43):
don't even know what I'm
going to write until I sit down and I'm
right and it's always been like that like even in
college and exams
or what I always tell my friends are able I just read
the book.
I don't know if I know the answer or
not, but I'll find out when I get there and that's
coffee and and in fact, especially because I write nonfiction to
(57:04):
I wrote articles and then like the newsletter you referred to and
stuff.
tough It's actually kind of a good intellectual process to
do to discover at by writing to
discover the subject, right?
Yeah, you know if you're writing a textbook for school new
or professor
(57:24):
of something.
Well, okay, you probably just completing it outright.
But if you actually because you already knew it if you're
actually discovering like your thoughts on something you have an opinion or
I
don't know what right you that way that you're talking.
Talking about is basically how I
do it too.
Right?
It'll be I might end up ya know.
(57:46):
I think it's very similar to what you're
talking about.
And I think that's one of the dangers of an llm
is it's easy to skip that process right?
Like if you were doing a school essay or something.
Let's just say you can get the llm to
spit something out.
Okay, you might get caught for pleasure it for using AI or
(58:07):
something.
I don't know but
like that's your risk.
Ask but you could do it right you can deliver a thing,
right but you
have learned nothing doing that like 0 right because the learning
is the doing of the thing.
It's the actual putting together the structure its understanding and
in fact, that's why LM S. I don't believe have
(58:29):
any real intelligence because they
do not understand they there's nothing there behind it.
All right to understand to do the understanding.
It's just you know, patterns and pattern
matching and statistical, you know producing tokens in a particular order, right?
The matches previous act.
There's no brain in there.
Right but we are in brain and that's
(58:49):
what our brains are for and I
think that was what that's what's it could be a
shame about AI is and
specifically LMS is using them that way to
skip that process that you just talked about because
when you do that also, I assume you probably get a bit
of a kick out of it, too.
Because as you're doing it, you're like, oh, yeah, you're
learning some of your figuring something out.
(59:11):
Right the if you could already figured it out.
What's the point in a way?
It was the point of writing it down then right?
So I understand that some people might like to
do the bullets and stuff and I get it like this.
It's not like I've never structured something but
like never really bullet wise to me.
(59:32):
It's like oh, yeah.
I think I know what I'm
going to say and then you start and then you think
of some others stuff and that's
the magic right?
Awesome.
Well, John is been a pleasure.
We reached the end of the hour, and I
know you're a busy man.
So just a final words of wisdom Before.
I Let You Go, and
of course tell people where they can find you and
(59:54):
get to know about you and your work.
Yeah, you want me to
give final words of wisdom is that is Nothing a little bit
more.
I just said and there's the magic.
Okay, I would say the final words of wisdom.
I would say are that your your superpower as an individual is
(01:00:15):
actually your connections with other people.
That's human.
That's the human superpower is our intelligence is not individualize.
It is distributed.
In fact is distributed within our with on our heads there's
modules and stuff.
Right?
There's two sides were brain.
For example the ants one thing if you want to
get into Anatomy, but the thing I'm talking about is we
(01:00:37):
are social animals.
And the reason that we rule the world for better or
worse is We work together real well and it
can be very destructive sometimes but that
but we do that right we do that super well, and I
think it's a shame if people get this message that individualism
is what everything's
all about.
(01:00:57):
No youyou.
That's a that's the path to disaster.
Really you only even do yourself a favor.
If you do that.
If you look at things that way so there's
my words of wisdom.
They go you can reach me at John be Dutton.com.
That's my work site.
So Jo hn what beauty TOS also plug the newsletter.
(01:01:19):
What kind of good?
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
I'm going to link to your website once this is published.
As well as the newsletter, but
just tell people just in case
yeah, yeah discomfort Zone.
It's it's the feedback loop between culture Tech and Brands
and it comes out every second Thursday.
(01:01:41):
It's free at least right now.
And if you go on sub stacking you search discomfort Zone, you
should find it.
I guess it's low put the link.
Yeah, I guess it's up stack this comfort zone.
I'm not sure which way around those things go.
But yeah.
I'll put a link don't work.
Sounds good.
All right, I really appreciate it.
(01:02:01):
She has been great great questions, and I
love what you're doing with this and I
really hope that this this particular episode helps somebody on their Journey
somehow.
Thanks a lot John.
I appreciate it.
And thank you for taking the time to
come share your words of wisdom today on the platform.
I'm sure viewers readers listeners are all going to
(01:02:24):
get a kick out of it and
learn something new to help them and their entrepreneurial Journey.
You know, what if they do I'd love to
hear from people too.
They can they can email me see, you know, the yes, let
John be done.com making this I mean, all right, so if you
want to
give him a shout out, you know him and
tell him we learn something great for the podcast, please.
Going to reach out to him.
(01:02:45):
I'll also put the email in the link so that are
we gonna
have everything in one place and you
can just copy and paste that appreciate awesome.
So, thanks a lot, John.
Okay, you take care.
All right, everyone.
Welcome to another exciting edition of the Bulletproof Entrepreneur podcast.
My guest today is John Dutton.
He's the founder of the discomfort Zone
newsletter on substack
is a creative brand strategist writer and author.
His new book is titled 2084.
It was released in April of 2024 and I'm
(00:25):
pleased to have him here on the show today to
tell us a little bit about yourself.
He's an entrepreneurial Journey as well as
some excerpts from his
new fiction book 2084.
So with that said John welcome to the podcast.
Yeah.
Thanks cheese.
Great.
John so let's get into it.
So tell me a little bit about yourself and your
(00:45):
entrepreneurial Journey because looking at LinkedIn
and looking at your bio, you've
done quite a bit over the years and it's
not very easy to
put you in a particular box when you want to
say, are you a writer or your copywriter
or you or what?
It's not very easy to
just box you in?
So how did your career evolved over the years?
(01:07):
Yeah.
I did evolve.
I wouldn't want to
be boxed in although you know, there's a You too, I
guess I've been working long enough that at one point you
do a bunch of different things.
And if you're any good at them, well, you know, it's
sort of all adds up and
then and then people like to I guess they like to
put people in boxes maybe you suffer from the same thing if
(01:28):
people might think of you as you know,
one particular thing goes
right or whatever it
is, right and that you don't exactly want to
be want to evolve as well.
Right?
So it's an interesting question, but
obviously I've been alive longer than you
unless you look spectacular.
Early young pretty sure I've been alive longer than you.
So at one point you do a lot of different things, right?
So I'm originally from England over been in Montreal and I
(01:52):
grew up kind of wanting to
be a writer.
I was my first like you're like 8 9 10 years
old.
What do you want to
be?
I would have said a journalist to
be honest with you.
And as soon as I started really understanding doing communication
studies really understanding what the reality of the press.
Was especially in Britain it was so shitty.
(02:16):
That was like I don't want to
do that.
That's terrible.
It seemed like they just ruined people's lives all the time.
It didn't seem like there was much positive going on there.
And then I discovered Cinema was always just a TV addict like
most people in Britain, but I
did a degree in cinema and that
led me to you know, get a bunch of skills under my
(02:39):
belt that I could actually apply in the real.
World and I moved to Montreal right
after getting my degree.
So I just went out to
try to get a job in the field of TV or movies
as either director or an editor which was insanely ambitious because you
know the typical thing you tell people kids starting out is start
(03:03):
at the bottom and
work your way up and that
is perfectly good advice.
So I was either too dumb or
too ambitious or whatever it was I was Now I'm going
to
be you know that director like which is it's completely I
mean, of course you can be in the sense that if you
like, I don't know Spielberg or somebody
started doing their their movies.
(03:23):
They got some financing from friends and family
and they make stuff.
Yeah, that's one that's one way of starting from the
bottom as a director.
Right?
But I was trying to find a job and it was like
the the late 80s was not at the economy was terrible and
lots
of the western world, but you
know, In particular where I was looking in Montreal and I
(03:44):
was very very fortunate and I
think people have to understand any any story of that.
He entrepreneur it's it's there's so much Fortune involved
in it because
when you when you're hearing the person it's because they're
the ones who it's survivorship bias is that is the
cognitive bias that of that right?
(04:05):
It's like you're only hearing from people who work for
there's a bunch of other people could have done the exact
same things.
That didn't work.
So I mean, you know only take so much for my story
or any
particular story.
I would say but there was a they used to
be a music TV channel in Quebec called Music Plus, you might
(04:26):
have heard of much music and and everybody's
heard of MTV.
This was the French Canadian version of MTV basically and they
were opening a studio in Montreal at the exact time that I
was going around looking for a job and I
had directed a music video as part of my degree.
gree, and I kind of like didn't exactly explain to people
(04:47):
that the show real that I was showing them was just done
a university.
It was it was done in Britain and I
just said this is what I did in Britain, right?
But the quality was good enough that it convinced them to
hire.
The director and and an Editor to be that was my second
gig.
Sorry.
The First cake was editing the English version of a CBC TV
(05:08):
show that was shot in dual language English and French
and they hired me to edit a couple of the English language
episodes of That So, I
was conceived me super fortunate to
get those jobs and then the downside of that good fortune because
I
was then directing live interviews with Huge International artists like all kinds
(05:32):
of people.
It was crazy like Radiohead before they
were famous Alanis like almost almost you deem it.
Like it wasn't just all all in Montreal in the 80s
or
late 80s.
Yeah.
Well, I work this is this is the point I was going
to
say was it was so fun to
do that live TV is a huge adrenaline rush because it's
(05:53):
life you make a mistake which we did because we
were all pretty young the people people who are hired If you
make a mistake, it would be seated.
Like it's literally it's too late.
It's gone.
It's out there everybody everybody just saw you did right and it's
not life or death, you know, but it's still it's
still a pretty high stress environment, but you
(06:14):
get a kick out of it and you're
also having fun with a bunch of other young people and
you're
you know, you have like Annie Lennox of the arithmetics or
meatloaf
or like really huge names.
You know, you're directing interviews with oil performances, right?
They would come in and they
would perform in the studio.
(06:35):
So basically I got my dream too soon because
then I I stayed there too long, which is I think a
good thing to
consider if you have had some success and you're
younger is don't let success kill your ambition because
in reality I should have done that for like maximum five years
(06:57):
and I
did it for 10 years, you know, no regrets.
It's fine.
But like one point I was like, oh, yeah.
Okay.
I'm gone.
I can't keep doing this, you know, like forever we've
got to
do something else.
So I moved into the commercial production Department of the same TV
station.
(07:18):
So they would have advertisers who wanted to
make ads that kind of had the vibe of the station.
So I mean, of course any Advertiser could just buy time for
their ads on this on the channel, but some people
wanted to actually produce adds a bit like a host read ad
for a podcast would be right you get that that Vibe of
(07:40):
the podcast right?
So you will get the vibe of the station.
And so that's when I started actually writing and
directing TV commercials and I did that for a couple of years.
But in the meantime, I was writing stuff.
I wrote a first novel that has never been published which I
suspect most people's first moles should not be although I
(08:02):
think I could pick it up and
make it better.
Now.
Maybe I wrote old self publishing way back in the day.
No.
No, there was no No, no, I didn't exist.
Like it wasn't published.
I sent out a mailing out like a huge heavy thing on
this to agents,
(08:23):
right?
And yeah, I mean they were they were right to reject it
because I
was it was not that good.
Anyway, I also wrote a stage play that was produced in Montreal.
So I was doing creative fiction writing.
(08:43):
Whether it be literature drama and
at the same time doing, you know TV commercials, so I
was kind of already outside of a box as it were right
doing to
grow things.
So, how about I thought for one second.
Why did you because now you're getting into the meat of
(09:06):
the creativity right?
I'm doing a lot of good work, but you
finish college in England and
then you moved immediately.
Into Canada Montreal what caused you to
make that move because I wasn't around back then but I
wouldn't expect that, you know, Canada and Montreal
where like hot places for like, you know, yeah, they weren't
(09:30):
no no.
No, it wasn't and I
mean I do it's interesting to play the counterfactual in your
in your head and
sort of say what would have happened if I'd stayed I
can I can run that.
Sighs for what would have happened if I hadn't studied film
as well?
I could have studied the stuff at University and
what would happen then?
I mean, you know, it's interesting but you
(09:52):
know, you can't redo it.
So the reality for my drill was I I actually I think
I would have left England no matter
what because I wasn't it.
It was the it was the Britain of Margaret Thatcher's government.
That was the it wasn't a sort of I don't
(10:14):
want to
say it's almost like it wasn't a friendly place which
I mean you can turn on your TV this week and and
almost have the same opinion because
without getting too political they just finished 14 years of conservative neoliberal.
Moment and look what's happening to to the society there,
right?
It's it's a different view of society that that just
(10:39):
certainly brought into Britain and
in parallel Reagan was To America that that doesn't emphasize social
values at all, Adam emphasizes individualism and competition
which, you know some dose of that is great, but you
(10:59):
know, To have a cohesive Society doesn't really work that way.
It's not even realistic.
It's kind of naive in that people work.
That way they don't they don't work that way at
all.
So I thought I would leave it's also, you know, the
weather is horrible in England like we were just talking before before
you
started recording about the weather in Canada.
(11:20):
I mean good grief, like it's like gray for four months
during the it's so depressing and
dampened horrible and it's like, I mean, I know I was
Was born and
grew up there, but you know you left where you were I
haven't asked you that question.
But like sometimes you just want to
leave.
Well, there's no reason particularly.
Why where you're born fits with who you
(11:41):
are like, so yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna
get out of there and I
thought I might go to Germany
or somewhere.
I got I studied German at school.
I thought I might do that and
then I met a French Canadian girl.
So without getting into all of the personal story.
I had an opportunity through her to
move here basically to Opera That's why specifically mature and
(12:01):
believe me people were telling me it was a ridiculous, you know
idea because it
was the nfb.
Then at the national film board all the people knew in Britain
was the national film Board of Canada and they
were like no cut lows that their jobs and
all this and I'm like, okay.
Well I'm going anyway, they had no idea that there was
this music TV station.
(12:22):
It was expanding or anything like which which is a there is
a bit of a lesson there, which is that, you know, you
can listen to people
but Listen, skeptically in the sense that well, what do they really
know?
Like they're talking about somewhere else like the yeah.
They didn't know what all they knew about where they learn
that and
then I could have listened to them
about that.
(12:42):
But in reality they were just wrong right there was working Montreal
and it
was it was cool, you know, possibly more than in London, but
like I said, the counterfactual is interesting if I'd have stayed
there who knows I could be Could be world famous now and
we
completely did.
(13:03):
You don't know real?
Yeah, because the thing is, you know is what are you were
there, you know, you studied from got some little experience before you
came all the way to Canada.
The scene was just emerging in Canada, right?
So you probably came from somewhere.
I was much more developed you've learned a lot and
then as the industry was building out in Canada were able to
(13:27):
like easily just use that you're you know, Yeah, possibly are
you made in school you have into a position where you probably
wouldn't have gotten if you had stayed in the UK.
I definitely wouldn't have they would have been possible but part
isn't it would have been impossible is a thing about British
culture, which is you know, there's there's a class system.
(13:50):
There's a hierarchy there's it's not as easy as
in North America to
just show up and and get somewhere you you know, it's
not as easy in France either.
It's things are stratified, right?
I'm not even sure.
I really even deserve the jobs that I got here.
(14:11):
Like it was it was a little bit crazy.
But I mean, I'm eternally grateful to the people
who gave me those opportunities because I
kind kind of tend to
act like that with young people is you got to
go on a bit of Faith, but you
look at somebody you get to
know them you see some potential and
then you say, okay.
Well, let's see what they can do.
(14:31):
They're not going to
be perfect far from perfect like the whole like a you know
that Doing Light TV and
making mistakes.
Like the whole crew was green, right because they
didn't actually have a budget to
hire people with experience is the other thing.
So, I mean it all worked out.
That's all I can say that but there's
(14:51):
yeah, there's no I don't think it's so
much.
I think it's a bit of a shame.
But whether you're from Britain or
from France cup of Canada and you
have a bit of an aura which you shouldn't do really
doesn't mean anything but you
have an accent and I see the same thing in French you
Montreal people come from France and it's
(15:14):
they have this sort of Aura of being professional somehow being
cultured being confident and
all this type of thing and British people
get that to completely undeserved because it's it's literally just
Just an accident or something,
right?
But I think that works in my favor as well.
(15:34):
Like honestly like I was born near Liverpool and the guy
was running the TV station with a fan of The Beatles.
So he thought that was cool.
And there was there's so much luck involved in this whole
thing.
Although you know, yeah, you have to put yourself out there.
It's a cliche to
say you make your own luck because that's
not how luck works at all but up by circumstances to
(15:57):
allow lock to happen, even if you Yes, keep on shooting at
one point.
You got to score a goal like that Things become cliched very
very quickly, but it's
true.
Well, I entrusted.
All right.
So why do we stop your talking about creativity launching your TV
show and
(16:18):
then starting right?
And so what happens from there?
Yeah.
So so I ended up leaving the TV station starting a small
Ad Agency with my girlfriend at the time who was a client.
Okay, that's how I met her.
She was a client of you know that the agency she had
been working for one in.
(16:38):
To produce tv ads, like I said with this Vibe of the
music TV station and I
was directing a series of ads that we shot across Canada was
really cool.
And then we were like, let's try this.
That was extremely entrepreneurial.
We did I kind of did that this is this goes against
everything anybody says and
maybe that's that was a problem, but I
(17:00):
kind of did three things at once like normally you should really
focus on one thing right and I
wouldn't tell somebody to
not focus on One thing but whatever
again stupidity or something we started an ad agency.
I started a production company with with a friend of mine who
(17:20):
had been my boss at the TV station in the commercial production
department and we
started this is going to sound
a bit crazy but a sponsored mural project to
beautify the city of Montreal because I
was sitting in a cafe one day and I'm
looking at this big.
Big giant like, you know 10-story High building.
(17:42):
That's just a brick wall back in the 80s.
There was a lot of parking there were a lot of parking
lots in Montreal where there used to
be a building maybe and something
got down or whatever they built something and there's
these just giant basically ugly walls, you know, and I'm
like, wow, there's loads of artists in Quebec.
There's all these walls.
How can we put the two together?
So I came up with this the idea for what I call
(18:02):
the the the biggest Art Gallery in the world and we
found a printer who would print ads for big shows in Vegas
there in Montreal the printer but
like in Vegas you need to
have ads that will withstand like intense Sun so they
don't fade if they're going to
(18:23):
be up for a long time.
And we wanted to have very high quality, you know images on
these things that wouldn't deteriorate in any way.
So they're On this thick vinyl they have this aluminum frame
that would entrust it was a huge expensive thing.
So we need it.
So the idea was to
get sponsors.
So big sponsors would have their name at the bottom of this
(18:45):
thing, but it
would be a local artist.
It was this whole thing and it
and it worked if we had like a dozen of these things
up around around the city and the
only reason it actually stopped working a because a
political reason with the city that the submitted City kind of what's
the word for that kind of became a bunch of different
boroughs Rose instead of 11 whole city so suddenly it was very
(19:07):
complicated to
get permission to do to do these things.
So anyway bunch of different stuff.
That was that was more of a that wasn't really a
money-making activities me kind of was but
like it wasn't the point of it right that point.
It was really just purely a social thing of like, hey, this
is win win win, you know a sponsor gets their name up.
(19:28):
Look they look pretty good because they're
making the city better local artist gets their picture.
Like 20 Stories the city and the people
just walking around get to
see some nice picture instead of a brick wall.
Right?
So it actually worked we did it.
We had a website and everything
and yeah, that was kind of cool.
Right and so did all these things at once which is which
(19:51):
is a terrible idea really to
do several things at once but I
can't I can't help it.
So yeah, that's what that's what I did for quite
a while so You
did the multiple projects all at once was it?
Well, obviously, it's more stressful but
was it more high-risk to the point
where either one of them could fail at any time because we
(20:13):
have juggling multiple things or
is it?
How did it work to
make things?
Right?
I don't think it's a question of stress least not
for me.
Anyway, I don't think stress is really an issue.
I don't think it's even.
(20:34):
Focus that's an issue really because
if you can focus on different things, I don't know.
I'm not at the world's biggest fan of Elon Musk, but
he
certainly focuses on a bunch of different things at once and succeeds
to a greater or lesser extent, you know, you can say that
this is this thing's failing that things failing and you
might be right but like he's done a bunch of stuff
(20:54):
right?
So I don't think that that's that's the thing
right is that there's these these counter examples where you can
say look, You can do more than one thing and I
understand why people say Focus I get it.
I completely get it.
But the downside of that is you're putting all your eggs
in one basket, right?
And if that basket if you drop the basket and the break
(21:16):
the eggs break.
Well, that's it.
You know, you're done whereas if you do a couple of
things it's a tricky line to
walk that right?
And so what I would say, the real answer is the reason
that I am no longer doing any of those those things is
really economic reasons, like not not because
(21:39):
of lack of focus or
stress.
It's just like I don't think you know, we didn't
have like a bit of Business Development person for the Ad
Agency, you know, we just thought we could just do the ads
kind of thing.
I was naive really to
think that way so we did it.
We did good campaigns, but we
didn't we weren't making business happen, right?
(21:59):
That wasn't my job to
do that at all.
I was the creative director, so That
was why that business eventually didn't didn't really work why
I started working freelance as a copywriter.
In fact, the production company was really a similar type of thing.
But like, you know, it's tough to run a production company.
(22:19):
Like there's a lot of competition in any given City to
make that work as a business and I
don't think that my partner was business-minded.
He was a producer and so I
think it was it was a similar kind of like failing.
I'm not a I mean I might be strategic for other
(22:41):
people doing creative strategy, you know for Brands and stuff,
but that's not business strategy.
Right?
I don't have an MBA or anything
and I don't think it's something that it's not
even something that kind of concerns me and
if it had of concerned me maybe things would have gone better.
But like I don't really I mean this is going to
(23:04):
sound
weird it we're talking about Bulletproof entrepreneurs, I don't do
things from for money.
So if you're not going to
do it for money, well, then you probably won't Point not
going to
make any money.
It's kind of pretty straightforward.
But I mean, I think people need to
think very very clearly about the reasons that they're doing things.
(23:26):
You can be an entrepreneur of but
like if you're and
of course you can measure success if you have a company in
terms of the balance sheet, and
of course, that's The way to
measure the success, right but
in terms of your personal success, if you're measuring it in
terms of money, I think you're probably making a mistake because
(23:48):
you
have one life unless you believe.
Otherwise you have one life and there's
more important things than money.
It's as simple as that right money is really good for
like exchanging goods with people that you don't know that that's
what it's
good for.
It's a measure of value or anything.
(24:09):
It's not even a great way of necessarily paying for services
even write like this is we can dig a big a big
hole in you know, start talking about capitalism, but
like theirs dear subtly different ways of doing things that we see
(24:30):
all the time but we
don't think about it in terms of people will do things
for influences or something
where there's no money Changing Hands what whatsoever right?
Like that's still an economic system, right?
You can do a favor for you.
Let's do some value to it.
There's loads of value.
That's just it but it's
hard to measure so we
have a we have a system with a with you know stocks
(24:52):
in the stock market and
quarterly reports and this anything where it's people's jobs to
be Shoot to produce measurable results, but the whole system gets.
Incredibly biased towards that one way of measuring success.
That's the problem with it.
(25:13):
Right and I think that actually causes loads of other extraneous problems.
So it's it's a I'm not like again, I
don't have an MBA.
I don't study economics ever but it
seems pretty clear to me that there's a bunch of shit
going on right now that is due to that
(25:36):
bias where money becomes the the measure of value and success.
SS for human beings really, you know, I couldn't give a
crap whether Elon Musk
has x billion right?
I'm going to still have an opinion on him as a
human being it doesn't mean it's the tiniest thing but
for but a lot of people do buy into that, right they
(25:58):
look at a just a number and
if you want to be a number, okay be a number it's
not when you put it like that.
It's like you can see how
in humid it is right like I don't think anybody really
really wants to
be a number of deep down inside, you know, so that's
what you're
doing.
If we all need we all live in a system where we
(26:21):
need money to
buy stuff to eat, you know live somewhere over here bills and
pay rent and everything.
Yeah.
Yeah for sure.
But like I'm not saying get rid of everything.
I'm not saying, you know communism is good or something.
I'm not saying that at all, but like I'm just
saying because communism communism
uses money to it's not so so it's
(26:42):
not that I'm just saying that there's a lot
of cultural emphasis and there's
any his Chi I've seen a change in my lifetime
right on those numbers and
good things can be produced by capitalism and the exchange
of you know, goods and stuff.
But like there's a there's a bunch of negative outcomes.
(27:03):
I mean, you can look at you know, the opioid crisis or
something
right?
Like it's just one I plucked out of thin air, right
that's driven by money.
Right, it's driven by a corporation logs everything right he stuff,
you know, and I'm
not anti Pharmaceuticals or anything
but it's just look like just just like it's too
(27:23):
easy to
get caught up in a system and
not be able to step back and say what's look at
what's really happening, right?
So that was a big No-No.
It's okay.
It's sets of the whole story better.
So it's perfectly.
Okay.
So your longest-running gig is your freelance copywriter, right?
(27:44):
How many years?
Have you been doing that?
Yeah.
Well, so I did that for over 10 years after leaving grad
kind of gradually leaving my own Ad Agency because
of lack of really lack of clients and
in doing that for ten years of Course you get loads of
clients and you
meet loads of people you acquire more skills.
(28:05):
You start working on some brand stuff and I
already had you know, a kind of a creative background that was
beyond just writing because
of doing TV directing and
editing and so I did yes, I did that for over 10
years.
Then I was hired by one of my clients a couple of
(28:25):
my clients ask me the same year to
be creative director in it.
In agencies kind of mid-size agencies in Montreal and I
declined both of them those offers because I
was pretty happy being freelancer.
I mean I was earning a good living and it's
and it's a it's a fun gig because
(28:47):
obviously the free the free part of Freelancers you Your Own Boss
you control your own time your own energy and that
kind of thing but also because it was it was actually, you
know profitable it was so lucrative Gig if you can if you
can do it, right, so I
said no and then I was convinced to
(29:09):
join one of them.
By being explained that the idea was to
expand outside Montreal that they wanted to to
create an international Network and I
would be the VP of creation.
And this was this was a an interesting challenge, right?
This is like, okay now we're building something unusual in Indy
(29:31):
in Montreal is going to
go International and we did we did it.
You know, we went we open an office in Lyon.
We open one in Hong Kong and we
open one in Toronto.
So it's even three continents not just you know International, right?
And then the the kind of sad thing and it
was sad for many many reasons with the pandemic happened and
(29:54):
then like a lot of agencies budgets get cut right and you
Juggling
is this layoffs and that kind of thing and
eventually I was a victim of that whole cycle because I
was laid off to and then I went back to
being freelance because you know, so it's like so that gig
has a gap in the middle but
(30:15):
is still going on the good thing about that was many there
was many good things about taking that job and it
was a you know, six years.
I was working there with a bunch of great people.
We did a bunch of great stuff.
That's all that's all fantastic but I
also learned some extra skills to because
of working on brand development and
(30:35):
strategy.
So, you know, I have more strings to my bow now,
so that's that's one reason.
I would say to people don't.
You know don't be afraid of saying no to something
but also don't be afraid to
say yes to something because you know, even though it might seem
afterwards.
Well, okay, that didn't quite pan out how I
(30:56):
thought chances are you're going to
have learned something actually even failure.
You'll learn you'll learn something.
Yeah, because what I notice that I'm not this down based
on what you were saying, is that for someone who studied film
you had a career doing so many different.
Things where it doesn't relate to film
(31:18):
what it relates more to creativity
and being able to think apply yourself learn on the job and
then create an offer or service
to support some economic value for compact without creating ads movie TV,
whatever it is.
So does that mean that tip for example someone listening to this
(31:39):
thinking?
Hey, I'm trying to
start this company.
I'm in business school or
accounting School nursing school.
Drive Focus only on just developing my one skill set or
do I try and build more of creativity and
use my hard skill plus more creativity
to find ways to you know, continue to stay economically viable because
(32:02):
that's the main thing.
We're trying to like teach people in the our conversation.
Like how do you stay resilient?
We're like you said on TV the world is, you know
in a very block State everything is uncertain lots of Laughs evil
from the pandemic.
So now with AI and everything, it's
just getting more frustrating for people to
figure out.
(32:23):
What can I do to
make a living.
So the true Lionel creativity came through your background, but I
want you to say something in your yeah.
That was very very good point.
I would say to anybody create the thing is creativity can be
a scary word for people because they'll
that it means they have to be able to
(32:43):
draw pictures or come up with ideas.
Has four stories or something, right?
Yeah, those things are creative but
like creativity is Is just finding new it's opening doors to
things
right?
It's finding new ways to
do things to seeing things a different way.
(33:03):
Okay, and there is huge value in that for any organization that
you're trying to either start yourself
or work for right?
It is a bit reflected in I won't lose the thread
of what you're what you're
asking but The fact that I study film was very helpful
because it
wasn't just because you can study film.
(33:25):
I know you're doing is watching movies, right which is totally
fine to
do study film.
That's cool movies are interesting but
50% of the degree that I had was practical it was making
movies, right and
actually doing photography involves a minor.
So I learned how to edit I learned how to shoot The
(33:45):
actually oddly the writing part was not super in-depth produce.
All of these different skills are actually really good skills to
apply in life like if you're editing.
The the sort of like Lehman's vision of editing is that you're
cutting things.
So it's called cutting right you're cutting things out somehow
(34:07):
and yet that
can happen when you're editing but really editing is building something
right?
It's taking lots of building blocks and
in French in French.
It's called Montage which is a much better word for it
because it
means montage is putting things together and
making something.
Okay, you're amassing something right like a montage like you're
building a mountain like a mom, you know, right so you're
(34:29):
putting these things together.
Whether right and like puzzle pieces and stuff and I do you
move this thing over here and it
changes how you you view it.
And of course young people today have all this ability on their
phones to
do to edit.
Right?
Look.
It's it's second nature, right, which is great, but it
certainly was not at all when I was a kid not even
(34:50):
close like it wasn't impossible in fact almost to
do so, I would just say that the building blocks that I
had in studying what I studied actually We were multi-dimensional and
gave me this ability to
look at things through different lenses to
be able to open doors more easily to
(35:10):
new possibilities, which is in a very very wide sense what creativity
is so if you two get back to what you
were saying because I agree it's no different from for me.
The the everything is in flux.
It's hard to know how to, you
know, find ways to make a living to make Connections to do
(35:31):
you think short-term medium-term and long-term
and all this kind of thing.
There's no there's no one recipe to that.
Right and unfortunately and fortunately luck does play a part.
But again, the more tools you have in your tool belt the
more doors you open or this type
of things, whatever metaphor you want to
use the better your odds are going to
be and I'd say yes get it get a real-world skill
(35:56):
if it's accounting if it's forget whether a i Do
it
or not because AI is never going to
be as good as a really good human and I
sincerely believe that like it at least LMS.
Let's say right and and diffusion models for image or video generation
(36:17):
that they're getting better all the time clearly, but the
the the really really talented people will always be better and they're
all there.
What they're going to do is just use those tools anyway
to
make It even better stuff.
In fact, in fact, really AI is making us more intelligent.
Like I wrote a piece about it like two weeks ago.
(36:39):
It's not making us less smart because it
might be easy to think.
Well, we don't even need to
use our brains anymore.
Right?
We have these things to
do all the stuff.
We don't need to
make take photos or whatever.
It is, make pictures or
write emails or something right actually in reality.
What we have is the ability.
(37:00):
E to access all of human words or pictures
or whatever it is.
And of course it's there's more ethical and
legal aspects to that which are which you're not fantastic this
bunch of stuff being just stolen by giant corporations.
But if you're a person using it if you have it,
if you don't have an ethical objection to
(37:21):
just using it as long as you're not passing it off
as your work when it was 100% AI which is of course
completely unethical to and You'll
get found out pretty quick.
There's no point doing it.
Right in reality.
You just made yourself.
Wait smarter, right and way more skilled, you know, so I
think that's the way to
(37:42):
look specifically at AI but
more generally I think creativity is a kind of just a mindset
to
being curious learning using your imagination.
It's to not being frightened.
I mean frightened is a very L word, but that's
actually what people are you should be who think that they
(38:04):
aren't creative their place.
They're just yeah.
Yeah, the people are creative and
just Fearless because you can look at like imagine some of the
most creative people of all time like Prince or David Bowie
just to take let's take musicians right or
pick a so, it's literally right and
obviously the some of these people can have a sketchy personal lives
or whatever
and you know, that's that can be true right but They
(38:28):
weren't afraid to actually maybe you could say prince everything.
He did was great.
But like if you look at David Bowie had a bunch of
stuff.
It was kind of weird or
like he what's Admiral about that guy was he had no
fear he went and
did a he acted on stage, you know, one point on in
on Broadway and he
did TV, and he wasn't that good an actor to
(38:51):
be honest.
Like you really not like very good but my god,
the guy was Fearless.
He did it anyway and And
if he had if he'd have been a little shit, he
wouldn't he they wouldn't have hired him to
do it at all.
Right.
We we see that kind of thing.
So I would say just don't be afraid to
try things to open your mind to open doors and they're
like, I really like that that metaphor of opening doors, you know,
(39:17):
because
if you're if you're scared of what's behind the
door Well, okay, you're in you're in you're in
some sort of Thriller a horror movie or something
and we but that's not but that's not life.
Like like like you open the doors and it's
and it's of course new stuff is scary right like
different new stuff is scary and and that's
(39:38):
a big psychological reality for people for human beings.
Of course people don't like it when you know, suddenly there's
I don't know, you know.
people have something like oh, it's different scary like who pick
a thing that people I don't know conservative people complain about
(40:00):
A re just scared of something that's completely different to what
they're
reacting.
Like.
Yeah.
It's just a gut thing that they don't like, you
know, it's might be aesthetic but it's
basically just fear right if something yeah, yeah really obvious.
That's what it is and that they're
that reality for those people is real like it doesn't
(40:21):
mean necessarily that they're horrible people right?
Like that's that's the way to bridge
that that sort of polarized Gap there is Is yeah cause it's
scary that when things change and when things
are different right it's scary when some stranger comes up to
you can't make out what's going on with them, you
know, they're wearing something weird or a
little weird.
(40:41):
Okay true.
But like, you know that this is the world we live in
so you
got to get with it, right?
So yeah, so I hope that answered the question went well dude.
We just have to be Fearless.
Their knowledge of the mantas right building things without yeah.
(41:06):
It's not easy to
always rely on what you know, it's not easy because everybody's
making it
up as they go along.
Nobody knows what's going on.
Yeah, and I mean look I was and I'm
not saying this to
like Pat myself on the back, but
like I was Fearless when I moved here again, you could call
it overconfidence young white guy, but
(41:29):
what a surprise Is that too much confidence?
Right like yeah, okay, but
still that was the reality that I was Fearless you could call
it stupidity.
You could naivety whatever you want, but it
was definitely fearless and it worked out right?
So that's what I would say to people
of course.
It might be you might have a higher Bart of cross if
(41:51):
you if you've emigrated from from a country where your you
look different.
Let's just say right like I did not look different.
Although my barrier was French actually, I had a barrier and I
had to overcome that fear if we didn't speak right I
spoke for me.
Well the trouble is is that the friend she learned in England
(42:11):
is not the french-speaking Quebec.
I don't know if you have used do you speak French?
Oh, okay.
Well, that's not a little bit.
I learned some skills.
You have you been to Quebec?
Yes, I have so you probably heard people speaking and
being like hoof.
That's all.
Yeah, exactly.
So I learn a thing and I'm
(42:32):
like I was good at French at school and I
come here and I'm like what the heck?
Well is this language that everybody speaking and it's
just it's just a kind of really old French actually
that hasn't evolved the same way as it has in Europe
or Africa
or other places, right?
It's it's it's cool, but it's
completely different.
So that was the problem was like oh shit.
(42:55):
I gotta my gym a pearl.
John is suddenly that's it.
Like I'll say whatever I say and
then they'll say something I can't understand so I
had to get beyond that.
That was my barrier.
That was my the thing that I had to be especially Fearless
about that was difficult.
So everybody has a thing I guess and it's
(43:17):
not easy.
Yeah and some days it's harder than others and that
kind of thing.
But also you don't know the other thing I would say
to
try to encourage people is at least having been on the earth
for a while now
is because if I could go back in time machine right and
see a younger me a different different periods of life when maybe
(43:38):
I was struggling a bit, you know, so I
don't want me to
make it sound like this has been one up and
up, you know, Kerr line going up all the time.
No, not at all obviously, right?
Like again I'd have, you know, an agency that fails and
these
kind of things right the mural project that had to end because
the city Amalgamated
and write these things happen, right?
(43:59):
So it's the question is.
Okay.
So what I was going to say was if I had a
time machine I would go back in time and
tell my younger self at different points.
Don't worry.
It'll probably it'll turn out fine.
I mean, of course we can't guarantee that but
like I can go back and
more or less say that like try not to
worry so much on average.
It's going to work out.
(44:20):
Yeah, there's a good chance.
The reality is we don't know the future that so the
scary side of the flux right is Is the unknown but the
good side is the unknown to because there
can be all kinds of good things coming up that we also
don't know about and we
can't we can't rely on them.
It's all you can sit on laurels and
(44:41):
say well everything's going to
be fine.
You can't, you know, you can't manifest stuff just based
on nothing right like you got to
work at stuff put yourself out there.
But the main thing that you have to do I think also
is what we're
doing now is Conversations with people right get to
(45:01):
know people have conversations.
We're all much much stronger together than as individuals, right?
And and I think it's great.
You do this podcast, you know, this isn't an effort to
reach out to people to share things with people to connect people.
It's fantastic that kind of thing.
(45:22):
Right and we have, you know, the downside of the the, you
know, some of the stuff that's gone.
Non over the last couple of decades.
The downside is a bunch of negative outcomes of social media.
The upside is it is actually easy to connect
with people, you know, you're not stuck in your little town
(45:46):
and it's
not just digital.
It's also, you know transporter something right we can we can
go for it was it was a long way to
go 100 miles from where I lived when I was a kid.
It was it was super fit.
Mi was super far right?
There's a different way of thinking about things now and
obviously with digital connections.
(46:09):
The world is the world doesn't you know is it's
the same distance to Australia's
is you know next door.
So that's that's the other thing is is the connections
to
write like I would say to people
try to do genuine networking in the sense of not sales networking.
(46:29):
I mean, that's fine.
If you're trying to
do sales, that's your job.
That's fine.
But I'm just saying honor him.
I hope you don't know again you open a door.
There's somebody or there's 10 people standing behind that door
and to
help you and maybe they're going to
help you in three years time that has happened to me
many times in my life even even doing business development for myself
(46:50):
when I was a freelance copywriter.
Sometimes things pay off two years later like you don't know
and they
can pay off big time like somebody, you know the email you
the phone you their message you whatever and it's
like.
Oh, yeah, I remember.
Well, you don't even remember you have to like look at
them up in your Gmail or
in your LinkedIn us wait like yeah, who are you again?
(47:12):
Oh, yeah, right, right.
Yeah.
It's all worth it in the end because the
the you never know factor, which is which is the the upside
of the unknown right is that you don't know in a
good way what things can work so I
would say connect with people too and and that's
and that's also a way of being creative because you
(47:33):
can always learn things from other people.
And as we start to wrap up the show, I want us
to
end on your book.
Oh, yes little girl about your book, right?
So I had an idea to
write a novel the same year that I was hired by the
the agency based on the idea that in 2084, which is the
(47:59):
obviously the 100th anniversary the Centenary of the mythical 1984 right of
George Orwell.
Where everything is this terrible surveillance State Perpetual war and
all this kind of thing.
My idea was in 2084.
There is a let's call it a country but it's
not exactly a country in the way we think of it
(48:20):
right now that where everything seems perfect and they
want to mark this Centenary to show how great things are in
contrast to this
fictional 1984, right?
So the basic idea was that was that there is this Utopia
(48:42):
and I
had the idea of having a setting it in this country called
the United corporations of Canada.
So it's a kind of endgame of neoliberal capitalism where things
are all corporatized.
Everything is there is no other government.
There's a board and that's
it.
There's a corporate board that decides things.
(49:02):
Okay the get elected everybody's a Older and everybody
has to just watch ads every day to
get a kind of universal basic income and you
can work if you want you don't have to it's
all seems fantastic, right and the story
set in Toronto.
So not far from where you are and
then because it's a story things are not what they seem
(49:28):
right?
So without giving away the story, you know, this is the basic
setting is this and the
main character There's two main characters a man who's a
sculptor who is hired by the United corporations of Canada to
create a piece to celebrate the Centenary.
Okay to show everybody how amazing life is life is good.
(49:50):
That's the kind of free, right.
The other main character is a woman who for basically Just for
kicks, but
also for sort of like online celebrity.
Does what she calls art thefts where she kind of hacks artworks
sort of big projects and
(50:10):
sort of live streams and she's
cool and this kind of thing.
So these two characters stories of course end up converging light.
So yeah, so I start writing this thing get hired have to
put it on ice for a while because
like I've got a big important corporate job.
We're building this agency Network, right and
then eventually, you know during the pandemic Like everybody yep bit more
(50:31):
time.
So I'm like, okay, I got it.
I got to get actually finish writing this I'd like a
third written and the
other reason that I had to finish it was because a bunch
of this stuff that I was in visiting for the future was
starting to
happen in real life.
And so it was getting frustrating because I'm
like I'm making up stuff but it's
happening.
So it doesn't look like I've even made it up
anymore.
So I gotta get it done like a great example is the
(50:53):
Apple Vision Pro, right?
Yes, which has little cameras.
So you see What you wearing?
I've never seen one in real life, but you
see somebody wearing one of these things and it
looks like there is right, but it's
not their eyes.
It's a video of their eyes, right?
It's cameras shooting their eyes and
then some pretty amazing.
Right ha nor it's on the screen some projected, but it's
(51:17):
on a screen right and
one of the key technological beaches of this world that I've
imagined is an expanded version of that thing.
Okay, so it's like Crap, like I got to
get this thing done.
So so yeah, so I got it.
I got it all written and Rewritten
and you know read by Beta readers and
(51:38):
then Rewritten again and this kind of thing and
then published a couple of months ago.
So yeah.
So I guess my second to the
last question is how did you get the skills to
write the book because I know a lot of people who are
with dream, you know.
Hey, I want to write a book.
I have my story.
(51:58):
I have a story then what were some things that helped you
write the book and
maybe added the book all what did you draw on in your
experience to
make the project happen?
Very good question.
I skipped a whole thing, which is this is my like seventh
book.
So so yeah, I already I have written it.
(52:22):
I mentioned I wrote a novel that has never seen the light
of day fine.
I wrote a bunch of short stories and I
self-published them as a kind of like test to
see how self-publishing worked about 15 years ago.
I want to say then I published a novel that I had
written in 2003.
(52:42):
That have that I had written in is a in a blog
format at the time.
So I was like constantly publishing a Blog knowing that I was
going to
put the whole thing together as a novel.
So it was a fictional character.
And in fact, a lot of people it was really publish a
lot of people thought that it was real like I would get
emails from people concerned about the character the main character and her
(53:03):
life
and I had to be like no.
No, it's it I'm giving you the scoop now, it's
just fiction right?
So I published that one then I just a Trilogy of young
adult kind of sci-fi fantasy novels and
then 2084.
So the answer for me is I already knew how to
(53:24):
write a book the answer for anybody else is there's loads
of ways to
write a book.
I mean, you know, there's podcasts out there.
There's also there's books there's all kinds of things
because there's
The the I guess really black and
white takes the definition of how to
write of and what an author is a fiction author is you're
(53:47):
either you either right you're a planner.
It's called a panther or a plan.
Okay.
So if you're a planner you plan the whole thing and
you
then you write it and
if you're a patsy you it's called that because you
write by the seat of your pants you just write you don't
know where it's
going right and some people can only do one and so
(54:08):
we
can only do the other.
I think that most people probably do a mix and I
do a mix like I think it's really hard to
write.
I think Stephen King does it and I
think that's why sometimes his books maybe don't work quite
so well, but I
think he's a pantser who doesn't always know how it's
going to end.
Right?
I think it's really a bit weird to
(54:29):
write a story not knowing kind of how it's
going to end.
I mean, I don't know it's not that well, I
guess it's fine.
Like who am I to
say?
It's not good but
like I want to know but I but I also want to
keep a little bit hidden from me when I'm
writing.
I don't want to
know exactly how it's going to end and 2084 is a
(54:52):
good example of that or my
previous books to is as you get there.
You know, you have a kind of Vega.
You could plot everything if you want it to and this
that's fine too.
Right?
I would find it.
Probably a little boring to
do that.
But like I get is if if you want to
do that do it, right, but I
find it interesting to have a kind of outline that you can
(55:14):
hang things on in a story.
And as you go, oh you get like it's what creativity
is you have new ideas all the characters you like.
Well, this character wouldn't do that.
Actually the thing you thought that they should do or you
needed them to do to make a Tori move somewhere you like.
You know what I'm trying too hard to
push them dip to make to do something.
(55:34):
In fact, they would do this and
then what would happen after that?
Right?
There's all kinds of there's all kinds of books and
you
know, if you're writing a thriller, maybe you want to
tightly plot it right like like no problem do that.
Right?
I like to leave it open a little bit and
sure enough the end of 2084 basically ends how I
imagined but the actual end ending the final fight chapter.
(56:00):
Is not something I'd imagined at all until after the first
draft even so that's kind of fun, you know.
So because I'm just thinking about the work I do writing
for clients and
writing for magazines.
I never write an outline when I'm
writing an article.
I literally just try to
rest as much as possible sit down, right and
(56:23):
then by the time I'm writing everything out I now add
it at the end and
say okay.
I need to move this up here.
I need to make this work.
I've never L and I
have another friend who's like he outlines every single post every
single every thought is like bullet points on and it
doesn't work for me because I
(56:43):
don't even know what I'm
going to write until I sit down and I'm
right and it's always been like that like even in
college and exams
or what I always tell my friends are able I just read
the book.
I don't know if I know the answer or
not, but I'll find out when I get there and that's
coffee and and in fact, especially because I write nonfiction to
(57:04):
I wrote articles and then like the newsletter you referred to and
stuff.
tough It's actually kind of a good intellectual process to
do to discover at by writing to
discover the subject, right?
Yeah, you know if you're writing a textbook for school new
or professor
(57:24):
of something.
Well, okay, you probably just completing it outright.
But if you actually because you already knew it if you're
actually discovering like your thoughts on something you have an opinion or
I
don't know what right you that way that you're talking.
Talking about is basically how I
do it too.
Right?
It'll be I might end up ya know.
(57:46):
I think it's very similar to what you're
talking about.
And I think that's one of the dangers of an llm
is it's easy to skip that process right?
Like if you were doing a school essay or something.
Let's just say you can get the llm to
spit something out.
Okay, you might get caught for pleasure it for using AI or
(58:07):
something.
I don't know but
like that's your risk.
Ask but you could do it right you can deliver a thing,
right but you
have learned nothing doing that like 0 right because the learning
is the doing of the thing.
It's the actual putting together the structure its understanding and
in fact, that's why LM S. I don't believe have
(58:29):
any real intelligence because they
do not understand they there's nothing there behind it.
All right to understand to do the understanding.
It's just you know, patterns and pattern
matching and statistical, you know producing tokens in a particular order, right?
The matches previous act.
There's no brain in there.
Right but we are in brain and that's
(58:49):
what our brains are for and I
think that was what that's what's it could be a
shame about AI is and
specifically LMS is using them that way to
skip that process that you just talked about because
when you do that also, I assume you probably get a bit
of a kick out of it, too.
Because as you're doing it, you're like, oh, yeah, you're
learning some of your figuring something out.
(59:11):
Right the if you could already figured it out.
What's the point in a way?
It was the point of writing it down then right?
So I understand that some people might like to
do the bullets and stuff and I get it like this.
It's not like I've never structured something but
like never really bullet wise to me.
(59:32):
It's like oh, yeah.
I think I know what I'm
going to say and then you start and then you think
of some others stuff and that's
the magic right?
Awesome.
Well, John is been a pleasure.
We reached the end of the hour, and I
know you're a busy man.
So just a final words of wisdom Before.
I Let You Go, and
of course tell people where they can find you and
(59:54):
get to know about you and your work.
Yeah, you want me to
give final words of wisdom is that is Nothing a little bit
more.
I just said and there's the magic.
Okay, I would say the final words of wisdom.
I would say are that your your superpower as an individual is
(01:00:15):
actually your connections with other people.
That's human.
That's the human superpower is our intelligence is not individualize.
It is distributed.
In fact is distributed within our with on our heads there's
modules and stuff.
Right?
There's two sides were brain.
For example the ants one thing if you want to
get into Anatomy, but the thing I'm talking about is we
(01:00:37):
are social animals.
And the reason that we rule the world for better or
worse is We work together real well and it
can be very destructive sometimes but that
but we do that right we do that super well, and I
think it's a shame if people get this message that individualism
is what everything's
all about.
(01:00:57):
No youyou.
That's a that's the path to disaster.
Really you only even do yourself a favor.
If you do that.
If you look at things that way so there's
my words of wisdom.
They go you can reach me at John be Dutton.com.
That's my work site.
So Jo hn what beauty TOS also plug the newsletter.
(01:01:19):
What kind of good?
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
I'm going to link to your website once this is published.
As well as the newsletter, but
just tell people just in case
yeah, yeah discomfort Zone.
It's it's the feedback loop between culture Tech and Brands
and it comes out every second Thursday.
(01:01:41):
It's free at least right now.
And if you go on sub stacking you search discomfort Zone, you
should find it.
I guess it's low put the link.
Yeah, I guess it's up stack this comfort zone.
I'm not sure which way around those things go.
But yeah.
I'll put a link don't work.
Sounds good.
All right, I really appreciate it.
(01:02:01):
She has been great great questions, and I
love what you're doing with this and I
really hope that this this particular episode helps somebody on their Journey
somehow.
Thanks a lot John.
I appreciate it.
And thank you for taking the time to
come share your words of wisdom today on the platform.
I'm sure viewers readers listeners are all going to
(01:02:24):
get a kick out of it and
learn something new to help them and their entrepreneurial Journey.
You know, what if they do I'd love to
hear from people too.
They can they can email me see, you know, the yes, let
John be done.com making this I mean, all right, so if you
want to
give him a shout out, you know him and
tell him we learn something great for the podcast, please.
Going to reach out to him.
(01:02:45):
I'll also put the email in the link so that are
we gonna
have everything in one place and you
can just copy and paste that appreciate awesome.
So, thanks a lot, John.
Okay, you take care.
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