August 4, 2025 • 18 mins
Do you feel like you gain more from going in and rolling or having class structure? Everybody loves an open mat: hard rounds, mat chats, messing around, meeting new people. But could structured classes be necessary to your jiu jitsu progression? We believe ultimately a mix of both is what will lead you down the best path...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
A good martial artist does not become tense but ready
.
Essentially, at this point thefight is over, so you pretty
much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trustedwith the secret to limitless
power?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Open mat versus structured class what is the
best structure for learning BJJ?
Now, this is a hotly debatedtopic in terms of people love
open mats and some people justgo to open mats.
They just avoid structuredclass.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, I think some folks despise class formats.
It's holding me back.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, because the thing or the common protest is
hey, every time I go to classit's just some new shit, like
there's not a lot of structurehere.
Even though you might learnsome stuff there, I never get to
do the stuff I want.
That's why I love me an openmat.
Now there's folks out there whoswear by the structured class.
(01:15):
Whether you prefer anecological approach or you know
drilling or whatever you're into, people love the structured
class and then they feel like anopen mat's a waste of time
because it's just whatever youknow, generally just defaults
into roles and wars and I mean,I think everyone can appreciate
an open mat and maybe not awaste of time, but it's not as
(01:35):
it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's not the process by which you learn the most
jiu-jitsu potentially.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
But I mean, it's maybe like free play at school,
you know.
It's like ah, just kids, go dowhat you want, yeah you know the
teacher when you go to soccerpractice.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
They're like we're just gonna have a game, game,
yeah, fuck, yeah, it's like theum the teacher didn't bring a
lesson plan.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
It's like at the end of the end of the year and
they're like, we'll just put ona video yeah, you guys watch
behind the news before just likey'all like home Alone.
Sure, put it in Christmas time,am I right?
But it's a funny thing becausethis has been brought up a
number of times where people arelike, oh, what do you boys
think what's better?
(02:13):
And I'm like all right, let'shave this chat, let's unpack
this class.
Depending on which gym youtrain at will vary and depending
on your level, like whereyou're starting this, whether
you be a white belt, a blue beltor you're a seasoned black belt
, it will be different for howyou experience the structured
(02:33):
class.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, I think we should identify two realities of
jujitsu in the current daywhich are relevant to this
debate, if you will, and thefirst is that the typical
jujitsu in the current day whichare relevant to this debate, if
you will.
Yes, and the first is that thetypical jujitsu student really
has changed quite a lot fromwhat it was when we would say
blue-purple belts.
Sure, the typical jujitsustudent and I'm not saying like
the total beginner, but theperson that's like blue or
(02:59):
purple, really quite into it andseemingly probably going to go
all the way until, you know, tothe elite level, let's say,
self-learning and study is hugenow, much bigger.
Never used to be right.
Sure, some people maybe did,but it wasn't this thing that
you see today, where it's likebuying instructionals and what's
Gordon doing and YouTubechannels, all that, yeah,
(03:20):
exactly right.
So the self-learning thing isreally huge, which means that a
lot of students probably don'trely on the academy to learn all
of their jujitsu.
I said that like a total monkin the way that jujitsu in the,
in the way that we did right, orthe way that people you know 15
years ago did.
The other side of that is thatthe other truth I think is
(03:45):
important to mention is that alot of gyms do just teach
randomized fucking techniques.
Sure, they pick it out of a hatevery day of the week and it's
like what are we actuallylearning here?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
You know you can, you go through, you go for three
days and you learn threedifferent techniques that are
all like not related yeah.
And you got to drill them forlike 15 minutes and then you
just did some rolls and youdidn't even use those techniques
anyway, and you can't evenremember what you did last week,
potentially, yeah.
So I think both of those thingsare really important to mention
, so you know, with that in mind, who do you think like who
(04:17):
would be saying that an open matis the superior way to learn?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I would say a younger person who is clearly very
motivated.
They've picked the game.
They're, they're you knowthey're.
They're doing the flippedclassroom, like lochlan giles
talks about it, where you gohome you work on your game and
you come to class to execute theflipped classroom model.
You're not actually using theclass to learn.
I mean, you're using it tolearn in real time.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
He recognized this is where it's going.
Well, this is what he does Athis level, like at the level
that I'm coaching at and thekind of students I'm trying to
create.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I don't know where he got it from, like maybe it was
like something to do withuniversity or whatever.
But that's what submeta is allabout.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
You go home, you do the study and then you come to
class with a plan Practice.
But if you've got something youwant to work on, like as a
drill or whatever you can electto do, that, which is pretty
interesting, because so there'stwo component parts to this, I
(05:20):
believe, or two majordemographics.
You've got someone who's like ayounger, self-motivated learner
who either is like studying upfor a game or they just want to
bang.
They're like I just enjoyrolling.
I don't give a fuck about crosschokes, I'm just trying to do
my thing.
But then the other side of that,when we can go to someone who
(05:41):
wants structure and wantsguidance, we're looking at more
like the older guy or gal who'slike man my life is so busy I
haven't got time to fuckingstudy jujitsu.
I'm here Tell me what the fuckto do.
I got kids, I got all thisnoise.
If you don't give me structure,I'm not learning shit.
And so, therefore, they want tocome in, they want to be told
(06:02):
what to do.
This is how you do it, just theright amount of rolling, and
that actually really suits them,because they do not have the
bandwidth to be doing all thatextra shit, and they also don't
want it to get too wild.
I think there is actually avalue in a structured class that
you can, you know you can get about of intensity, but it's not
(06:24):
.
It's not just this open playingfield of, like fucking endless
roles.
You know, you know you're onlygoing to get about three,
maximum four roles in.
You're going to learn a bit ofjiu-jitsu and that's the right
dose of intensity for you as agrown-ass man with grown-ass
woman with responsibilities yeah, I, um, would you, would you do
(06:44):
you see that I'd agree withthat?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
yeah, kind of two archetypes in a way yeah and
yeah, I totally do.
And I think that, um, like, ifI'm thinking about how the
modern academy should, should befacilitating, you know, like
the the education of itsstudents, I think, like, what
lucky does, there is fucking aclass, because it's like I'm
opening this up for you tochoose your own adventure, yeah,
(07:06):
but I'm also teaching something.
So, if you're not that person,if you're not that archetype,
just listen to me.
Yeah, but in that way, I thinkthat the other layer is having a
cohesive curriculum.
Yes, and it doesn't mean to saythat, like he's got 12 months
of training mapped out, but it'sjust like I'm gonna teach you
something that's related to whatwe did last week and we're
(07:26):
gonna stick with this for awhile, and then I'm gonna teach
you something else that'srelated to this.
So it's like it there's somekind of sequencing to it.
Versus yesterday we wereinverting, tonight we're
defending the kimura, sure, uh,tomorrow's heel hooks, yep, you
know, um, I think that, like, Ithink that that really should be
.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
If you think about an educator, right, like a coach,
I think that that is bareminimum, that they would have
some kind of overview of what amI teaching you over the week's
months, and I think for many ofthe kind of bigger chain or
bigger franchise models ofjujitsu they do have that Like
(08:07):
syllabus is an important part ofit, because people who are
drawn to maybe a moreconventional we might say
jujitsu school or academy format, they want the structure, they
want the path.
What are we doing next week,coach, Like how many times do I
need to drill this?
Whereas for someone who's maybea little bit different or got
(08:29):
their own kind of projects inmind, they don't want to be told
, they just want to fucking workon their shit, be in their own
process and do that.
So I actually feel that it'slike many things we talk about
either, or I think there is asweet spot in the middle
somewhere.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Imagine Wow, it's not black and white.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Fuck God I wish it could be that simple.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Conceptually my brain cannot comprehend this.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, it's challenging here, folks, because
, similar to anything you chooseat the early stages of your
jiu-jitsu, you may need a lot ofguidance.
But once you've hit a certainlevel of proficiency and I'm not
even just saying the gap fromwhite belt to blue belt, I'm
saying if you've been on whitebelt for 18 months, two years,
(09:16):
say and you're really close tobeing a blue belt, you're pretty
, you're probably across whatyou need to know to be a really
good white belt.
So spending more timeexperimenting might be the thing
that helps you get to that bluebelt level, say.
Same thing like if you're areally new blue belt and
suddenly you're getting way moretechnical demands and shit's
(09:37):
way harder, you might need a lotmore guidance.
So I think it is.
There's a cadence of when youneed a bunch more instruction
and structure and then there'stimes when you need to kind of
fuck around and find out.
That's how I see it could fit.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
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(10:10):
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(10:31):
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Yeah, I think maybe a bit ofthe curse of the open mat thing
is like it's super fun to go toan open mat, isn't it?
Like it's so much fun.
You know you've got all theselike new characters?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Hang out chat roll.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, and new faces, new games, new dilemmas, and I
think that's super exciting,right, and it can be really
addictive to just want to do it.
It's like when you go to soccerpractice and let's just play the
game.
It's fucking fun for everyoneand it'll keep them coming back.
But it's not actually takingisolated pieces of everyone's
(11:10):
game and working on that anddeveloping it so that the whole
can be stronger or more cohesive.
And so I think that the curseof that is if you are in that
sort of routine of like I justlike, go and bang, like and I
and I show up at different I'vegot like three or four academies
that I go to, and I go to thisone on this night and you know
I'm just fucking rolling hard.
It might be really good formaybe, maybe, your ego, it might
(11:33):
be really good for your gamefor a certain period of time,
but it is not a solution tolearning, not for development,
no, and I think that's wherehaving a coach right, like a
good coach, someone that's gotan eye on you and an eye over
your entire approach to thething, is the most valuable
resource you can have.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, the freedom of open mat it's a beautiful thing,
but the lack of feedback is issuch a gaping weakness Like,
yeah, yeah, I mean, unless yourcoach is there and they see you
roll and they can you know.
I think there is thepossibility of feedback, because
I would sometimes the coolthing about not having a formal
(12:12):
class you can just ignore thetimer and you and me can jam out
about something soundisciplined and it's so
whatever.
Like it could also just not.
Like it could just be that youcould just be playing your a
game every time and that willget you so far, up until the
point that fucking doesn't, andthen you're like shit, I need to
(12:35):
learn some new shit.
How do I do that?
Yeah, maybe a little bit ofstructure you know.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It does make me think too, that there's there's a
difference in open mats, and I'mthinking like sometimes you
might have like a, like your gymmight do an open mat every week
.
Say, it's saturday morning,open mat, classic, and it's
pretty much the same people thatare there.
That's a very different openmat to the christmas holidays
open mat at some mega gym nearbywhere you got 50 cunts showing
(13:00):
up, oh my god, from all over thecity and it's like fuck, who's
here today?
You haven't, you know andyou're and you're rolling with
all these strangers.
Yep, that's very different,isn't it?
Because if you're going to yourown format and you're training
with mostly your trainingpartners, people you know, then
you are following, there's somekind of consistency to you know
and you can apply oh fuck, soand so always gets me with this.
Today I'm gonna try workingthis way instead, but when
(13:22):
you're rolling with someone new,no such strategy applies.
It's like let's just fuckinghave a go and see where we end
up.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Dude, I went to the fucking open mat at berserker's
gym in poland, so I was like broit is one of the.
It is I think it's the best mmateam in in poland.
Right and now poland has like areally good pedigree, pedigree
for grappling and uh jujitsu.
You know they've got somereally you some really up and
coming submission grapplers outof that country.
(13:49):
Now I didn't realize this gymis like 15 minutes from my
wife's house.
I was staying there and I waslike, fuck, I need to roll.
I haven't rolled for a coupleof weeks.
Then I found the gym and I metthe famous Buggy Buginsky.
He's the king of that gym.
He's lovely, he's superfriendly, tough, tough role.
And I went to a structured classand it was fine.
(14:10):
And he said, oh, you shouldcome for our open mat on
Saturday and I was like, ohgreat, he's like, yeah, we get a
lot of people showing up.
It's like gi, no gi, it's a lotof fun.
Two hours of 10-minute roundswith one-minute break.
Oh, wow, bro, it wasn't afucking open mat, it was a
murder fest of comp rounds.
But for them that's like thisis open mat.
(14:31):
And I'm like two hours, bro, 12times 10 minute rounds.
Wow, oh bro.
Third round, I was fuckingcooked.
I was in survival mode for thewhole shit.
Like I was like this is is notlike, cause no one sits out.
Yeah, like it's like everyonepartners up.
It's only if the numbers areuneven that someone is like off,
(14:51):
and if they're off the matthey're like skipping and
sprawling.
And I was like this ain't nofucking open mat Like you
fucking tricked me.
But, bro, it was.
It was an eye opener, oh GodFuck.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So the oh fuck.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So the guy messaged the competition team and was
like guys, he's coming, but no,they know, because as soon as
you walk in they're like oh,who's the fucking new guy?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And I got beelined straight away by, like the
European champion Pavel.
He came up to me and he waslike you and me, next round, go
Okay.
And then you know Polish RandyCouture.
He was like oh hey, how are you?
He was like Muay Thai shorts,like you know, in a fight,
singlet wrestling boots, shadowboxing, and I was like he's like
(15:35):
, don't worry, don't worry, I'ma jujitsu guy.
And I was like fuck, you are.
I think I saw your face onevery MMA poster, like I think I
know.
But he was pretty nice.
He wasn't as mean to me asfucking pavel yeah, pavel
fucking got real upset.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Who's pavel?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
pavel uh international no, so.
So there's a young kid, pavelnow, who a lot of people know.
Pavel is incredibly good in thegeese judo black bowl like I
think he was european championbasically any.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Any grappler named pavel you need to be wary of you
need to watch your fucking back.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It doesn't matter where they're from, but as soon
as I knew, as soon as I spokereally good english, I'm like,
oh my god, this guy's traveledhe's competed internationally.
Yeah, not everyone in polandspeaking english, especially if
a black belt just walks up toyou and goes we'll roll next
round.
You're like shit, yeah they,they want to test.
You just Just did a six monthcamp at Atos.
Yeah, just come back fromworlds, got silver to fucking
(16:28):
Kynan Duarte.
Anyway, there is levels to theopen mat game, and so what we're
speaking about, I believe, istwo very different approaches,
and it really does depend on howyou learn, because some people
respond well to the freedom andsome people respond well to the
structure.
But ultimately, I think it justdepends on where you're at in
(16:52):
your skill development.
It doesn't matter if you're awhite belt or a brown belt.
Sometimes you need more freedomto execute, and then other
times you need more feedback tolearn and improve, and so I
think, bearing that in mind, doyou think there's a sweet spot,
joe?
What would be your ratio?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Look, man, I am.
What do you like?
What's your personal take?
I like classes.
You know I'm a lazy cunt.
I don't want to do self-study.
No, but I am.
I'm just not my.
I don't want to give time tojujitsu outside of class.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
But you love an open mat like anyone?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I do, but that's the thing I would like.
I always say I'd benefit waymore from doing some study and
fixing some gaps, but I justlove playing the game, so I love
showing up to an open mat andjust banging, but I also know
that I can only handle thisevery so often, Right?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
right right.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So these days, you know, I don't really go to many
open mats, but maybe, I don'tknow, maybe once a month, once
every few weeks would be plenty,and then classes in between.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
My jiu-jitsu consists of pretty much 90% open mats.
Like that's my jiu-jitsu rightnow.
Honestly, I'm only trainingabout twice a week, so generally
the thing that fits in is like,oh, you guys got an open mat on
Sunday.
In is like, oh, you guys got anopen mat on sunday.
Boom, I'm there.
Yeah, a bit of an open mat on afriday night.
I'm there and you know I'mworking on one or two things,
(18:12):
but I would say my jujitsu hasnot developed at like.
Honestly, my learning injujitsu is really stalled.
My, what I'm good at, I'mpretty good at because I just
work the fuck out of it.
But really I feel I would liketo be able to institute more
class time, because I enjoylearning shit and I like getting
someone else's take on it and Ithink that's it's pretty
(18:34):
important, no matter what levelyou're at.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, great.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
There it is, folks Open mat versus structured class
.
What's best for you?
Let us know in the comments.
A good martial artist does not become tense but ready
.
Essentially, at this point thefight is over, so you pretty
much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trustedwith the secret to limitless
power?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Open mat versus structured class what is the
best structure for learning BJJ?
Now, this is a hotly debatedtopic in terms of people love
open mats and some people justgo to open mats.
They just avoid structuredclass.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, I think some folks despise class formats.
It's holding me back.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, because the thing or the common protest is
hey, every time I go to classit's just some new shit, like
there's not a lot of structurehere.
Even though you might learnsome stuff there, I never get to
do the stuff I want.
That's why I love me an openmat.
Now there's folks out there whoswear by the structured class.
(01:15):
Whether you prefer anecological approach or you know
drilling or whatever you're into, people love the structured
class and then they feel like anopen mat's a waste of time
because it's just whatever youknow, generally just defaults
into roles and wars and I mean,I think everyone can appreciate
an open mat and maybe not awaste of time, but it's not as
(01:35):
it's not.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's not the process by which you learn the most
jiu-jitsu potentially.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
But I mean, it's maybe like free play at school,
you know.
It's like ah, just kids, go dowhat you want, yeah you know the
teacher when you go to soccerpractice.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
They're like we're just gonna have a game, game,
yeah, fuck, yeah, it's like theum the teacher didn't bring a
lesson plan.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
It's like at the end of the end of the year and
they're like, we'll just put ona video yeah, you guys watch
behind the news before just likey'all like home Alone.
Sure, put it in Christmas time,am I right?
But it's a funny thing becausethis has been brought up a
number of times where people arelike, oh, what do you boys
think what's better?
(02:13):
And I'm like all right, let'shave this chat, let's unpack
this class.
Depending on which gym youtrain at will vary and depending
on your level, like whereyou're starting this, whether
you be a white belt, a blue beltor you're a seasoned black belt
, it will be different for howyou experience the structured
(02:33):
class.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, I think we should identify two realities of
jujitsu in the current daywhich are relevant to this
debate, if you will, and thefirst is that the typical
jujitsu in the current day whichare relevant to this debate, if
you will.
Yes, and the first is that thetypical jujitsu student really
has changed quite a lot fromwhat it was when we would say
blue-purple belts.
Sure, the typical jujitsustudent and I'm not saying like
the total beginner, but theperson that's like blue or
(02:59):
purple, really quite into it andseemingly probably going to go
all the way until, you know, tothe elite level, let's say,
self-learning and study is hugenow, much bigger.
Never used to be right.
Sure, some people maybe did,but it wasn't this thing that
you see today, where it's likebuying instructionals and what's
Gordon doing and YouTubechannels, all that, yeah,
(03:20):
exactly right.
So the self-learning thing isreally huge, which means that a
lot of students probably don'trely on the academy to learn all
of their jujitsu.
I said that like a total monkin the way that jujitsu in the,
in the way that we did right, orthe way that people you know 15
years ago did.
The other side of that is thatthe other truth I think is
(03:45):
important to mention is that alot of gyms do just teach
randomized fucking techniques.
Sure, they pick it out of a hatevery day of the week and it's
like what are we actuallylearning here?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
You know you can, you go through, you go for three
days and you learn threedifferent techniques that are
all like not related yeah.
And you got to drill them forlike 15 minutes and then you
just did some rolls and youdidn't even use those techniques
anyway, and you can't evenremember what you did last week,
potentially, yeah.
So I think both of those thingsare really important to mention
, so you know, with that in mind, who do you think like who
(04:17):
would be saying that an open matis the superior way to learn?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I would say a younger person who is clearly very
motivated.
They've picked the game.
They're, they're you knowthey're.
They're doing the flippedclassroom, like lochlan giles
talks about it, where you gohome you work on your game and
you come to class to execute theflipped classroom model.
You're not actually using theclass to learn.
I mean, you're using it tolearn in real time.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
He recognized this is where it's going.
Well, this is what he does Athis level, like at the level
that I'm coaching at and thekind of students I'm trying to
create.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I don't know where he got it from, like maybe it was
like something to do withuniversity or whatever.
But that's what submeta is allabout.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
You go home, you do the study and then you come to
class with a plan Practice.
But if you've got something youwant to work on, like as a
drill or whatever you can electto do, that, which is pretty
interesting, because so there'stwo component parts to this, I
(05:20):
believe, or two majordemographics.
You've got someone who's like ayounger, self-motivated learner
who either is like studying upfor a game or they just want to
bang.
They're like I just enjoyrolling.
I don't give a fuck about crosschokes, I'm just trying to do
my thing.
But then the other side of that,when we can go to someone who
(05:41):
wants structure and wantsguidance, we're looking at more
like the older guy or gal who'slike man my life is so busy I
haven't got time to fuckingstudy jujitsu.
I'm here Tell me what the fuckto do.
I got kids, I got all thisnoise.
If you don't give me structure,I'm not learning shit.
And so, therefore, they want tocome in, they want to be told
(06:02):
what to do.
This is how you do it, just theright amount of rolling, and
that actually really suits them,because they do not have the
bandwidth to be doing all thatextra shit, and they also don't
want it to get too wild.
I think there is actually avalue in a structured class that
you can, you know you can get about of intensity, but it's not
(06:24):
.
It's not just this open playingfield of, like fucking endless
roles.
You know, you know you're onlygoing to get about three,
maximum four roles in.
You're going to learn a bit ofjiu-jitsu and that's the right
dose of intensity for you as agrown-ass man with grown-ass
woman with responsibilities yeah, I, um, would you, would you do
(06:44):
you see that I'd agree withthat?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
yeah, kind of two archetypes in a way yeah and
yeah, I totally do.
And I think that, um, like, ifI'm thinking about how the
modern academy should, should befacilitating, you know, like
the the education of itsstudents, I think, like, what
lucky does, there is fucking aclass, because it's like I'm
opening this up for you tochoose your own adventure, yeah,
(07:06):
but I'm also teaching something.
So, if you're not that person,if you're not that archetype,
just listen to me.
Yeah, but in that way, I thinkthat the other layer is having a
cohesive curriculum.
Yes, and it doesn't mean to saythat, like he's got 12 months
of training mapped out, but it'sjust like I'm gonna teach you
something that's related to whatwe did last week and we're
(07:26):
gonna stick with this for awhile, and then I'm gonna teach
you something else that'srelated to this.
So it's like it there's somekind of sequencing to it.
Versus yesterday we wereinverting, tonight we're
defending the kimura, sure, uh,tomorrow's heel hooks, yep, you
know, um, I think that, like, Ithink that that really should be
.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
If you think about an educator, right, like a coach,
I think that that is bareminimum, that they would have
some kind of overview of what amI teaching you over the week's
months, and I think for many ofthe kind of bigger chain or
bigger franchise models ofjujitsu they do have that Like
(08:07):
syllabus is an important part ofit, because people who are
drawn to maybe a moreconventional we might say
jujitsu school or academy format, they want the structure, they
want the path.
What are we doing next week,coach, Like how many times do I
need to drill this?
Whereas for someone who's maybea little bit different or got
(08:29):
their own kind of projects inmind, they don't want to be told
, they just want to fucking workon their shit, be in their own
process and do that.
So I actually feel that it'slike many things we talk about
either, or I think there is asweet spot in the middle
somewhere.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Imagine Wow, it's not black and white.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Fuck God I wish it could be that simple.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Conceptually my brain cannot comprehend this.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, it's challenging here, folks, because
, similar to anything you chooseat the early stages of your
jiu-jitsu, you may need a lot ofguidance.
But once you've hit a certainlevel of proficiency and I'm not
even just saying the gap fromwhite belt to blue belt, I'm
saying if you've been on whitebelt for 18 months, two years,
(09:16):
say and you're really close tobeing a blue belt, you're pretty
, you're probably across whatyou need to know to be a really
good white belt.
So spending more timeexperimenting might be the thing
that helps you get to that bluebelt level, say.
Same thing like if you're areally new blue belt and
suddenly you're getting way moretechnical demands and shit's
(09:37):
way harder, you might need a lotmore guidance.
So I think it is.
There's a cadence of when youneed a bunch more instruction
and structure and then there'stimes when you need to kind of
fuck around and find out.
That's how I see it could fit.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
There are a bunch of choices out there for your
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hours upon hours in the gym eachweek.
(10:10):
But you also want the biggestreturns in terms of your
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The Bulletproof for BJJ app hasyou covered.
You can take a two-week freetrial right now, and if you go
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(10:31):
Jump into the two week freetrial right now.
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Yeah, I think maybe a bit ofthe curse of the open mat thing
is like it's super fun to go toan open mat, isn't it?
Like it's so much fun.
You know you've got all theselike new characters?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Hang out chat roll.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, and new faces, new games, new dilemmas, and I
think that's super exciting,right, and it can be really
addictive to just want to do it.
It's like when you go to soccerpractice and let's just play the
game.
It's fucking fun for everyoneand it'll keep them coming back.
But it's not actually takingisolated pieces of everyone's
(11:10):
game and working on that anddeveloping it so that the whole
can be stronger or more cohesive.
And so I think that the curseof that is if you are in that
sort of routine of like I justlike, go and bang, like and I
and I show up at different I'vegot like three or four academies
that I go to, and I go to thisone on this night and you know
I'm just fucking rolling hard.
It might be really good formaybe, maybe, your ego, it might
(11:33):
be really good for your gamefor a certain period of time,
but it is not a solution tolearning, not for development,
no, and I think that's wherehaving a coach right, like a
good coach, someone that's gotan eye on you and an eye over
your entire approach to thething, is the most valuable
resource you can have.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, the freedom of open mat it's a beautiful thing,
but the lack of feedback is issuch a gaping weakness Like,
yeah, yeah, I mean, unless yourcoach is there and they see you
roll and they can you know.
I think there is thepossibility of feedback, because
I would sometimes the coolthing about not having a formal
(12:12):
class you can just ignore thetimer and you and me can jam out
about something soundisciplined and it's so
whatever.
Like it could also just not.
Like it could just be that youcould just be playing your a
game every time and that willget you so far, up until the
point that fucking doesn't, andthen you're like shit, I need to
(12:35):
learn some new shit.
How do I do that?
Yeah, maybe a little bit ofstructure you know.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It does make me think too, that there's there's a
difference in open mats, and I'mthinking like sometimes you
might have like a, like your gymmight do an open mat every week
.
Say, it's saturday morning,open mat, classic, and it's
pretty much the same people thatare there.
That's a very different openmat to the christmas holidays
open mat at some mega gym nearbywhere you got 50 cunts showing
(13:00):
up, oh my god, from all over thecity and it's like fuck, who's
here today?
You haven't, you know andyou're and you're rolling with
all these strangers.
Yep, that's very different,isn't it?
Because if you're going to yourown format and you're training
with mostly your trainingpartners, people you know, then
you are following, there's somekind of consistency to you know
and you can apply oh fuck, soand so always gets me with this.
Today I'm gonna try workingthis way instead, but when
(13:22):
you're rolling with someone new,no such strategy applies.
It's like let's just fuckinghave a go and see where we end
up.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Dude, I went to the fucking open mat at berserker's
gym in poland, so I was like broit is one of the.
It is I think it's the best mmateam in in poland.
Right and now poland has like areally good pedigree, pedigree
for grappling and uh jujitsu.
You know they've got somereally you some really up and
coming submission grapplers outof that country.
(13:49):
Now I didn't realize this gymis like 15 minutes from my
wife's house.
I was staying there and I waslike, fuck, I need to roll.
I haven't rolled for a coupleof weeks.
Then I found the gym and I metthe famous Buggy Buginsky.
He's the king of that gym.
He's lovely, he's superfriendly, tough, tough role.
And I went to a structured classand it was fine.
(14:10):
And he said, oh, you shouldcome for our open mat on
Saturday and I was like, ohgreat, he's like, yeah, we get a
lot of people showing up.
It's like gi, no gi, it's a lotof fun.
Two hours of 10-minute roundswith one-minute break.
Oh, wow, bro, it wasn't afucking open mat, it was a
murder fest of comp rounds.
But for them that's like thisis open mat.
(14:31):
And I'm like two hours, bro, 12times 10 minute rounds.
Wow, oh bro.
Third round, I was fuckingcooked.
I was in survival mode for thewhole shit.
Like I was like this is is notlike, cause no one sits out.
Yeah, like it's like everyonepartners up.
It's only if the numbers areuneven that someone is like off,
(14:51):
and if they're off the matthey're like skipping and
sprawling.
And I was like this ain't nofucking open mat Like you
fucking tricked me.
But, bro, it was.
It was an eye opener, oh GodFuck.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So the oh fuck.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So the guy messaged the competition team and was
like guys, he's coming, but no,they know, because as soon as
you walk in they're like oh,who's the fucking new guy?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And I got beelined straight away by, like the
European champion Pavel.
He came up to me and he waslike you and me, next round, go
Okay.
And then you know Polish RandyCouture.
He was like oh hey, how are you?
He was like Muay Thai shorts,like you know, in a fight,
singlet wrestling boots, shadowboxing, and I was like he's like
(15:35):
, don't worry, don't worry, I'ma jujitsu guy.
And I was like fuck, you are.
I think I saw your face onevery MMA poster, like I think I
know.
But he was pretty nice.
He wasn't as mean to me asfucking pavel yeah, pavel
fucking got real upset.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Who's pavel?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
pavel uh international no, so.
So there's a young kid, pavelnow, who a lot of people know.
Pavel is incredibly good in thegeese judo black bowl like I
think he was european championbasically any.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Any grappler named pavel you need to be wary of you
need to watch your fucking back.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It doesn't matter where they're from, but as soon
as I knew, as soon as I spokereally good english, I'm like,
oh my god, this guy's traveledhe's competed internationally.
Yeah, not everyone in polandspeaking english, especially if
a black belt just walks up toyou and goes we'll roll next
round.
You're like shit, yeah they,they want to test.
You just Just did a six monthcamp at Atos.
Yeah, just come back fromworlds, got silver to fucking
(16:28):
Kynan Duarte.
Anyway, there is levels to theopen mat game, and so what we're
speaking about, I believe, istwo very different approaches,
and it really does depend on howyou learn, because some people
respond well to the freedom andsome people respond well to the
structure.
But ultimately, I think it justdepends on where you're at in
(16:52):
your skill development.
It doesn't matter if you're awhite belt or a brown belt.
Sometimes you need more freedomto execute, and then other
times you need more feedback tolearn and improve, and so I
think, bearing that in mind, doyou think there's a sweet spot,
joe?
What would be your ratio?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Look, man, I am.
What do you like?
What's your personal take?
I like classes.
You know I'm a lazy cunt.
I don't want to do self-study.
No, but I am.
I'm just not my.
I don't want to give time tojujitsu outside of class.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
But you love an open mat like anyone?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I do, but that's the thing I would like.
I always say I'd benefit waymore from doing some study and
fixing some gaps, but I justlove playing the game, so I love
showing up to an open mat andjust banging, but I also know
that I can only handle thisevery so often, Right?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
right right.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So these days, you know, I don't really go to many
open mats, but maybe, I don'tknow, maybe once a month, once
every few weeks would be plenty,and then classes in between.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
My jiu-jitsu consists of pretty much 90% open mats.
Like that's my jiu-jitsu rightnow.
Honestly, I'm only trainingabout twice a week, so generally
the thing that fits in is like,oh, you guys got an open mat on
Sunday.
In is like, oh, you guys got anopen mat on sunday.
Boom, I'm there.
Yeah, a bit of an open mat on afriday night.
I'm there and you know I'mworking on one or two things,
(18:12):
but I would say my jujitsu hasnot developed at like.
Honestly, my learning injujitsu is really stalled.
My, what I'm good at, I'mpretty good at because I just
work the fuck out of it.
But really I feel I would liketo be able to institute more
class time, because I enjoylearning shit and I like getting
someone else's take on it and Ithink that's it's pretty
(18:34):
important, no matter what levelyou're at.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, great.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
There it is, folks Open mat versus structured class
.
What's best for you?
Let us know in the comments.
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