October 21, 2025 • 20 mins
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The Episode Referenced: https://youtu.be/BnFzjcPTSsc?si=p1c0v7t-iBxz9rk-
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:03):
Better listen very carefully.
A good martial mattes does notbecome tense but ready.
Essentially, at this point, thefight is over.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
So you pretty much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trusted withthe secret to limitless power?
I'm ready.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
The secret methods behind getting you strong for
BJJ, and it's not what youthink.
Many people out there feel theyhave to do huge hard workouts to
get stronger.
But recently I was privy to someinformation and it it confirmed
one or two things that I'velearned in my career that have
shown me you can get stronger bydoing less more frequently.
(00:54):
And it it it it I think itsurprises a bunch of people.
I had actually seen somebodyquoting this the other day on
Instagram, referencing thisepisode.
So I thought I'll go have a lookat this.
And it's an episode between TimFerris and a gentleman named
Keith Barr.
He's Dr.
Keith Barr at UC Davis.
And it's all about tendons andligaments.
(01:14):
He's talking about tendinitis inthe elbows.
And I was like, this is very uhrelevant to jujitsu folks.
But the thing that reallysurprised me, Joe, was the very
minimal effort that was applied,and it got uh people very, very
strong.
Right on.
So I mean, what's the what's thebreakdown?
What's the fucking what's thesecret juice here?
(01:35):
What's the juice?
Well, many people who I talk towhen it comes to strength
training often say to me, Idon't have time.
They're like, I haven't got anhour.
I can't, you know, I can't getaway from work or I can't leave
the house, blah, blah.
But what was very interestingabout the the studies that um
Dr.
Barr had done was they were only10-minute long sessions.
(01:56):
Right.
Now, this was relevant specificto strengthening tendons and
ligaments.
He wasn't actually trying to getmuscles bigger or anything like
that, even though that is hisbackground, is like getting
getting hench.
Um, and which just break downthe difference between connect
like tendons and ligamentsversus muscles and developing so
for the best part, um, yeah, youmuscle growth, it was always
(02:19):
associated like oh, the thebigger you are, the stronger you
are, because there's a directcorrelation between
cross-sectional size and yourability to produce force.
But you know, this has evolvedover time, and we can see it in
many different sports whereyou've got someone who's more
compact or smaller, and they'vegot more muscle fibers or
(02:40):
myofibrils, they're denser, andthey can produce a lot of force
even though they're not as big.
Yeah, and so the reason why thiswas um surprising because he
this this this gentleman, Dr.
Dr.
Barr, it it was his researchused by a top-level rock
climber.
And this rock climber basicallysaw the research and was like,
shit, I got elbow tendinitisbecause I'm climbing all the
(03:01):
time.
Maybe I could use this researchto help me, you know, not cure,
but like treat my tendinitis.
So what he what he did was hewas doing 10 second hangs
submaximally.
So he'd work for 10 secondsdoing like fingerboard hangs,
and with but with his feet on astep.
Uh so it wasn't, you know, itwas about 70%.
(03:22):
And then he'd take a break for50 seconds.
And he did 10 sets, you know, onthe minute every minute for for
10 minutes.
Fuck you, that that that Germanvolume training for finger
strength.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
But it's 10 seconds, it's it's tiny.
It was very minimal consideringthis guy is like 10 sets of 10
seconds.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
10 seconds.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
I'm no mathematical genius, but that's like that's a
hundred seconds.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
It is a hundred seconds.
So that's not actually a lot oftime under tension.
And so he was doing this twice aday, according to the protocol,
giving eight hours break.
Yeah, and he did this for 30days.
Now, this is a world-classboulderer and rock climber.
This is someone who can hang offone arm with like one finger,
and so he wondered if he couldimprove his maximal hang.
(04:07):
Because his maximal hangpreviously was just under a
second, with adding 60% of hisbody weight.
Right.
Right?
That that was his bar.
After this 30-day protocol, andthis this guy's just trying to
sort out his elbow pain, he hadimproved it to 13 seconds.
The one second hold had improvedto 13 seconds, and he wasn't
doing maximal heavy stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:30):
Because according to the research, after about 10 to
15 minutes of a certain amountof load, it stops actually
strengthening the tendons andligaments.
It's going more to the musclesand it's actually creating more
damage.
And yeah, you do need damage toget muscles to grow.
But if you're actually justtrying to get your tendons and
ligaments stronger, he's saying10 to 15 minutes is about right.
(04:51):
He likened tendons and ligamentsto his teenage daughter.
He's like, I can talk to her forfive to ten minutes, but after
that, she's gonna tune out.
And he was saying that liketheir research had shown that it
stops being uh beneficial totendons and ligaments and starts
being more like a muscle damagetype thing.
Yeah, and so that this reallysurprised me because so much of
(05:13):
what I've learned is that youknow you've got to spend a long
time under tension to reallydevelop tendon and ligament
strength.
But what his research had shownis like short about more
regularly was just as effective,if not more effective.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
So that's why I wanted to bring this thing up
because I've had a similarexperience doing other training,
which got me um very strong,even though I wasn't working
maximally.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
And so uh this is something that I wanted to share
because someone was asking meabout chin-ups, like pull-ups.
They're like, oh, you know, howdo I get better?
And and I said, look, the bestthing you can do is have like a
pull-up bar in a doorway, andwhen you walk through the
doorway, do a couple of pull-upsif that's where you're at.
Not max out, just a couple ofreps, just to grease the groove.
Now I got this from PavelSatsulin, and the way I used
(06:04):
this was actually my shoulder,my overhead press used to be
trash, used to be my weakestmovement.
And so my old coach If Finn waslike, okay, pick a weight which
is kind of submaximum, whateverit was.
For me at the time, it was like20 kilos, and he was like, I
just want you to do five repsevery hour or two.
Whenever you're in the gym, youwalk past the two 20 kilo
(06:27):
kettlebells, do five reps, putthem back down, and just do
this.
And he said, just do it threetimes a week, just that.
And he was like, get you know,get about five sets, be small.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
Like on a particular day, you'd be like, I'm just
gonna kind of do this everycouple of hours.
Yeah, just fit it in.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Yeah, you know, and and honestly, within three
weeks, my overhead press hasgone from like topping out at
about 24 kilos to I could pressthe 232s.
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
And I think this is where it speaks more to not just
our tendon and ligamentstrength, but skill.
This idea of like getting thosemuscles to work together and
practicing the skill andbecoming efficient in doing the
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:04):
And yeah, I got dramatically stronger without
doing really heavy overheadpress.
And I think this is the thingthat we underestimate that we
feel like, oh, I've got to do abig ass workout.
When actually, if you break itup, you can get a lot of
benefits.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I like the grease thegroove thing.
It um it makes a lot of sense.
I feel like it's hard to pick upa kettlebell and press it every
couple hours unless you work ina year, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
But it, I mean, if someone works from home or you,
you know, it doesn't, it doesn'thave to be um, it doesn't have
to be that specific.
That's just what I what I had.
But you know, for my friendwho's trying to work on
pull-ups, they they're they'rean artist, they're at home.
I'm like, yeah, you just get oneof those like$100, put it in the
door, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
Just every time you walk through the door, two,
three pull-ups.
SPEAKER_01 (07:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
And and it and it's amazing what it can do.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
But um I like the idea of it too, because it
because it does take theemphasis away from being like,
we're working out, and this isthe container, and we gotta do,
you know, our it's gotta beharder than last week and and
all of that stuff, to just like,oh, I'm I sprinkle this thing in
across my days, yeah, and I justdo some every now and again.
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
Yeah.
And I think you know, m mobilityis very similar to that.
Like a lot of people are like,oh, but I don't really have time
to do a mobility session.
It's like, well, I mean, we weoften feel I think socially
like, oh, I can't just do it,but I can't just do a squat.
But man, if I'm in a queue or ifI got a spa, I mean, I'm like,
if I'm standing around theairport, I don't give a fuck.
Like, I mean, obviously, that'sthat's just me.
(08:37):
I'm just kind of don't care, butI find that most people start to
ignore you, they look over that,that guy's weird.
But if you were just sitting inthe way, yeah, yeah.
If they just saw you in a chair,they'd be like, that guy's
fucking weird.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Yeah, you know what I mean?
And now it's proven.
Oh god, he's squatting.
Um, you know, it's it's funny,right?
Because it it you it's likethere's an irony to this, to
this sort of um, to thisrevelation because the the gym,
right?
The gym is just a simulation oflike of life.
Yeah.
So it's like, hey man, if youlike, if you worked physically
(09:10):
hard and you just picked shit upoften and carried it around, you
would be strong and muscular.
Yeah.
But you don't.
So you come to the gym, and inthis one hour time frame, you
practice picking stuff up andwalking around and pressing, and
you get, you know, and so it'slike now what we're saying is
like just pick the shit up alittle bit and you'll get
stronger.
SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
It actually makes me think about um, I was we're at
Monster Trucks on the weekend.
Oh, yeah.
Went to Monster Gym, which isfucking sick, and it's always,
it's always a sick day, and ityou always get a lot, you always
get a lot of folks from like umprobably from like rural, like
country Australia, right?
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Outside, outer, outer submarine.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Yeah, and there was this, there was this like looked
like like straight off the farmsitting in front.
He uh he actually didn't havethe hat, but he had the hat
hair.
Oh, right.
So you could see he'd beenwearing a hat all day.
Yep.
He was tanned as fuck becausehe'd just been in the sun.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
And uh he was like um, he was like this sinewy, and
you could see though, like hislegs were like like he was
almost black, yeah.
But then when he's short, shorttan, white as fuck, right?
Like he just he was in the sunso much.
And I just noticed him becausehe was there with his wife.
They had a newborn and fourchildren.
Wow, they had five kids, and Iwas like, holy shit, and we chat
him.
They're a really nice family.
(10:21):
Um, we're interacting with theirkids a bit.
But I was looking at him and hewas just this sinewy kind of
guy, works on the land withthese big fucking hands.
Big strong hands.
And I was looking at his handsand I'm like, I bet that cunt's
got a strong grip.
Oh, yeah.
And I was just thinking abouthim like it's that farmer
strength, it's that builderstrength, it's bricklayers.
If you train with any of thesepeople, you know exactly what I
mean.
Anyone that's working on thetools has strong fucking hands
(10:44):
and grip, but they're not big.
I mean, some sometimes out, butbut that it's not exclusively,
they're not big humans, right?
Well, that's not efficient.
No, that's the thing.
And it's not that they traintheir grip or their arms or
whatever, they just do a bitthroughout the day every day,
yes, and they turn into afucking strong cunt.
SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
And it's not the muscles, it's the connective
tissue.
Like it's it's all of it, butbut that's kind of a great
example, isn't it, of of likethis greasing the groove thing.
Yes.
Those people are living in.
If you're if you're greasing thegroove in your work, you will
become a monster.
For sure.
There are a bunch of choices outthere for your strength and
mobility training.
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(11:23):
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SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
And I think the other thing which uh uh, you
know, this this gentleman at Dr.
Barr had touched on is the valueof isometrics.
And, you know, I I think thatthis is something that uh is
underrated because a lot of usout there, if you've got elbow
pain, you know, whether it'skind of medial, like inside the
elbow, or it's kind of just uhuh lateral, it's on top.
(12:27):
So we talk about flexion andextension.
If it's what they call tenniselbow or golfer's elbow,
oftentimes we're not doingisometric work.
And he was saying that's soimportant for developing tendon
and ligament strengths.
That typically comes fromcarrying or holding a position.
Yeah.
Now I don't know about you, Joe,but like what's an isometric for
(12:49):
well there's there's it'sinteresting he defined it
slightly different.
He said there's like anovercoming isometric where
you're working against a fixedspot.
Like you think if you'retightening like a wrench and
you're trying to tighten a boltand you're like, I gotta get it
a little bit more, and you andyou just give it that little bit
of extra, that's overcomingisometrics.
(13:10):
And then he I think he saidthere's like a not decreasing or
it's like a relenting where youhave to like yeah, or yielding,
yielding, yielding isometricswhere you've got to hold and not
yield, and it's kind of as longas you can hold it.
Oh, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
So he's talking about you know how you have a
wall sit, or it could no, thatcould be static, and then
yielding is when you're like itkind of like an eccentric.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Yeah, but the interesting thing about
eccentric is he was saying thatactually there's as much value
to an isometric as there is toan eccentric, yeah, even though
you know we're quite like doingeccentrics does strengthen
connective tissues, but like hewas saying that there's actually
a huge specific value to thisstress of an isometric.
(13:52):
And the thing about isometricsis you can't do them for a long
time.
And he was he was giving aprescription around like
treating elbow pain, tendinitis,but he was saying it's it's
actually just a great way to getfucking strong.
And and for advanced strengthathletes, you will see them
doing um uh overcomingisometrics, like just trying to
work a bar through a fixed pointas hard as they can.
(14:12):
But he was just saying, look, 30seconds, 30 seconds, like build
up, keep the tension, and thenchill for two minutes.
Four sets.
That's it, and that will get youfucking stronger.
And I was like, How dare you?
How dare you give such a minimumprescription to get strong?
You know, but it it's it this ishis field of research.
This is the thing he knowspretty much better than anyone.
(14:35):
And he was like, Look, you know,I think people just he the
reason why I like it was he'sgot no horse in the race,
basically.
Yeah, he's trying to work outhow to do lab engineered tendons
and ligaments.
He's trying to like, yeah,that's his that's where he wants
to come up with a like a youtore your ACL, here's an ACL we
grew for you, put it back in.
(14:55):
Yeah, that's where he's reallyfocused.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
But you know, I I would say that like that that
prescription of like it's itactually sounds bang, like it
sounds bang on with say evenwhat we of what we prescribe,
yeah.
Right?
Like if because if you thinkabout like like say we're
talking chest to bar holdsisometric, perfect.
We're usually like four or fivesets of anywhere from um like 15
to 30 seconds, yeah, 10 to 20.
(15:19):
Which equals usually somewherein the realm of 60 to 90 time
under tension.
Yeah.
If you're talking five sets offive chin-ups, let's say a rep
takes you five seconds, yeah,that's 25 seconds per set.
Yep.
You do five sets, what's fivetimes 25?
That's 125 seconds.
Yep.
So it's it falls within that,right?
Yeah, and and I I actuallyremember um, I think uh Thomas
(15:42):
Kurz talks about it in theScience of Sports training where
he's like that's about the rangeyou need to build tendon and
ligament strength.
But I also remember um fitnessFAQs and Cy Monster.
Nice, yeah, when I did aworkshop with them in Sydney,
they were like 60 to 90 seconds.
Yeah, like if you're traininglike front lever or anything
isometric, just get 60 to 90 inwhatever way you want to break
(16:02):
it out.
Whatever the dose is, and that'sgood.
Yeah, you know, and it's it'sit's a fucking Steve Maxwell,
yeah, he's been pushing the icebanging the isometric drum for
some years.
SPEAKER_02 (16:11):
Yeah, and I think for all of us, and we we've
touched on this before, when youdo BJJ, your tendons and
ligaments cop it, they justfucking cop it.
And it we we're in the art ofyanking joints, and yeah, we get
kind of hooked up on, yeah, butmy muscles and my cardio, and
yeah, but if your tendons andligaments are not healthy,
they're gonna break.
And we're in an art and a sportof breaking those tissues, so
(16:35):
we've got to reinforce them.
And the thing that kind ofreally hit hard for me was it's
actually easier to make themstronger than you think.
You don't have to max out tomake your connective tissues
stronger, but you have to do itconsistently.
That was the thing that reallykind of I got from it.
(16:56):
And it was interesting becausehe was talking about um steroids
and how steroids really, youknow, the muscles will go up,
grows a muscle, but it makes theuh tendons and ligaments um
brittle.
SPEAKER_00 (17:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
And that's why you see people who take gear tend to
get biceps tears and pec tears,and because the the tendons and
ligaments take time.
Yeah, wow, and so I I think thisis the thing that because we can
be impatient and we want topush, and don't get me wrong,
I'm someone who likes to liftheavy.
I have not that I have any jointissues at the moment, but when I
(17:26):
injured my hip, the advice thatwas given to me was to do not
maximal repetitions, it was timeunder tension to strengthen the
tendon.
Yeah, because I had done somedamage to the tendon.
So yeah, man, I I think thisthis the reason why this really
struck a chord with me is it wasvery minimal effective dose.
(17:47):
Yeah.
And so for people out there,you're like, I don't have time.
Actually, you only need about 10minutes and you do that
consistently, and you can getstronger at whatever you're
working on, what whatever thatmight be.
And so whether it be becausethis is this is where the this
is where the lines blur slightlyrelevant to like strength
training and mobility, and thisis something you and I both know
(18:10):
quite well, Joe, um, is youknow, once you're good at a
range of motion, you need to youneed to load it to kind of get
better there.
Yeah whether that be like asplit or a J curl or whatever,
and you're like, oh, but at whatpoint is this is this a stretch
versus at what point is thislike a lift?
Yeah, and it's it's all thesame, like it's it's essentially
(18:30):
the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Yeah.
But uh it's a slightly bi abias, maybe in one one direction
or the other.
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Yeah, depending on your level of capacity, right?
Like if you if you can't do a Jcurl with eight kilos, you're
not gonna do it with 60 kilos.
Yeah.
Same thing.
If you can't hold like a No,maybe you will.
SPEAKER_00 (18:45):
You just might never get out of it.
That one time.
Okay, you got it?
You got it?
Okay, okay, go.
SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
But uh, but then the same thing, like a middle split
or a horse dance, like there'sthe the thing they were talking
about was like you're talkingabout your uh you know, when
you're a kid, uh, you know, gyminstructor might get you to do
like a wall sit.
And why does that burn eventhough you're not moving?
Yeah, and it was just talkingabout the the the role between
like where your um there'sthere's muscles that will take
(19:14):
over because they're stronger,and at a critical point, once
they fatigue, the the the loadwill go to tendons, and that's
why holding for an extendedperiod of time is actually is
helpful.
And uh yeah, man, it's it's agreat thing.
I I listened to it and I waslike, you know what?
This is fucking great.
We've got to talk about thismore because you can get
(19:34):
stronger in a shorter time, andit's just a matter of doing it
consistently and you'll getthere.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Yeah, I think particularly for um for like
body weight exercises or acouple of movements you want to
get better at, if you can havethe apparatus close by, like you
said, the the pull-up bar in thedoorway, so that you can just
fuck around with it, you know,whatever, maybe in the morning
before you go to work, maybewhen you come home every day,
like this will be a huge unlock.
(20:01):
Like you will if it it becomespart of your day, yeah, versus
you showing up to the gym andworking on pull-ups once a week.
SPEAKER_02 (20:07):
Yeah.
Uh the the the frequency thingis massive and and working
sub-maximally.
SPEAKER_01 (20:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
I think that we're really sold on you've got to
work maximally to get strong.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
But actually, the research shows even at the
highest level, you can improveyour maximal strength by working
submaximally.
It's safer and you can getstrong.
There it is, folks.
Get it.
Better listen very carefully.
A good martial mattes does notbecome tense but ready.
Essentially, at this point, thefight is over.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
So you pretty much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trusted withthe secret to limitless power?
I'm ready.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
The secret methods behind getting you strong for
BJJ, and it's not what youthink.
Many people out there feel theyhave to do huge hard workouts to
get stronger.
But recently I was privy to someinformation and it it confirmed
one or two things that I'velearned in my career that have
shown me you can get stronger bydoing less more frequently.
(00:54):
And it it it it I think itsurprises a bunch of people.
I had actually seen somebodyquoting this the other day on
Instagram, referencing thisepisode.
So I thought I'll go have a lookat this.
And it's an episode between TimFerris and a gentleman named
Keith Barr.
He's Dr.
Keith Barr at UC Davis.
And it's all about tendons andligaments.
(01:14):
He's talking about tendinitis inthe elbows.
And I was like, this is very uhrelevant to jujitsu folks.
But the thing that reallysurprised me, Joe, was the very
minimal effort that was applied,and it got uh people very, very
strong.
Right on.
So I mean, what's the what's thebreakdown?
What's the fucking what's thesecret juice here?
(01:35):
What's the juice?
Well, many people who I talk towhen it comes to strength
training often say to me, Idon't have time.
They're like, I haven't got anhour.
I can't, you know, I can't getaway from work or I can't leave
the house, blah, blah.
But what was very interestingabout the the studies that um
Dr.
Barr had done was they were only10-minute long sessions.
(01:56):
Right.
Now, this was relevant specificto strengthening tendons and
ligaments.
He wasn't actually trying to getmuscles bigger or anything like
that, even though that is hisbackground, is like getting
getting hench.
Um, and which just break downthe difference between connect
like tendons and ligamentsversus muscles and developing so
for the best part, um, yeah, youmuscle growth, it was always
(02:19):
associated like oh, the thebigger you are, the stronger you
are, because there's a directcorrelation between
cross-sectional size and yourability to produce force.
But you know, this has evolvedover time, and we can see it in
many different sports whereyou've got someone who's more
compact or smaller, and they'vegot more muscle fibers or
(02:40):
myofibrils, they're denser, andthey can produce a lot of force
even though they're not as big.
Yeah, and so the reason why thiswas um surprising because he
this this this gentleman, Dr.
Dr.
Barr, it it was his researchused by a top-level rock
climber.
And this rock climber basicallysaw the research and was like,
shit, I got elbow tendinitisbecause I'm climbing all the
(03:01):
time.
Maybe I could use this researchto help me, you know, not cure,
but like treat my tendinitis.
So what he what he did was hewas doing 10 second hangs
submaximally.
So he'd work for 10 secondsdoing like fingerboard hangs,
and with but with his feet on astep.
Uh so it wasn't, you know, itwas about 70%.
(03:22):
And then he'd take a break for50 seconds.
And he did 10 sets, you know, onthe minute every minute for for
10 minutes.
Fuck you, that that that Germanvolume training for finger
strength.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
But it's 10 seconds, it's it's tiny.
It was very minimal consideringthis guy is like 10 sets of 10
seconds.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
10 seconds.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
I'm no mathematical genius, but that's like that's a
hundred seconds.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
It is a hundred seconds.
So that's not actually a lot oftime under tension.
And so he was doing this twice aday, according to the protocol,
giving eight hours break.
Yeah, and he did this for 30days.
Now, this is a world-classboulderer and rock climber.
This is someone who can hang offone arm with like one finger,
and so he wondered if he couldimprove his maximal hang.
(04:07):
Because his maximal hangpreviously was just under a
second, with adding 60% of hisbody weight.
Right.
Right?
That that was his bar.
After this 30-day protocol, andthis this guy's just trying to
sort out his elbow pain, he hadimproved it to 13 seconds.
The one second hold had improvedto 13 seconds, and he wasn't
doing maximal heavy stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:30):
Because according to the research, after about 10 to
15 minutes of a certain amountof load, it stops actually
strengthening the tendons andligaments.
It's going more to the musclesand it's actually creating more
damage.
And yeah, you do need damage toget muscles to grow.
But if you're actually justtrying to get your tendons and
ligaments stronger, he's saying10 to 15 minutes is about right.
(04:51):
He likened tendons and ligamentsto his teenage daughter.
He's like, I can talk to her forfive to ten minutes, but after
that, she's gonna tune out.
And he was saying that liketheir research had shown that it
stops being uh beneficial totendons and ligaments and starts
being more like a muscle damagetype thing.
Yeah, and so that this reallysurprised me because so much of
(05:13):
what I've learned is that youknow you've got to spend a long
time under tension to reallydevelop tendon and ligament
strength.
But what his research had shownis like short about more
regularly was just as effective,if not more effective.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
So that's why I wanted to bring this thing up
because I've had a similarexperience doing other training,
which got me um very strong,even though I wasn't working
maximally.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
And so uh this is something that I wanted to share
because someone was asking meabout chin-ups, like pull-ups.
They're like, oh, you know, howdo I get better?
And and I said, look, the bestthing you can do is have like a
pull-up bar in a doorway, andwhen you walk through the
doorway, do a couple of pull-upsif that's where you're at.
Not max out, just a couple ofreps, just to grease the groove.
Now I got this from PavelSatsulin, and the way I used
(06:04):
this was actually my shoulder,my overhead press used to be
trash, used to be my weakestmovement.
And so my old coach If Finn waslike, okay, pick a weight which
is kind of submaximum, whateverit was.
For me at the time, it was like20 kilos, and he was like, I
just want you to do five repsevery hour or two.
Whenever you're in the gym, youwalk past the two 20 kilo
(06:27):
kettlebells, do five reps, putthem back down, and just do
this.
And he said, just do it threetimes a week, just that.
And he was like, get you know,get about five sets, be small.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
Like on a particular day, you'd be like, I'm just
gonna kind of do this everycouple of hours.
Yeah, just fit it in.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Yeah, you know, and and honestly, within three
weeks, my overhead press hasgone from like topping out at
about 24 kilos to I could pressthe 232s.
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
And I think this is where it speaks more to not just
our tendon and ligamentstrength, but skill.
This idea of like getting thosemuscles to work together and
practicing the skill andbecoming efficient in doing the
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:04):
And yeah, I got dramatically stronger without
doing really heavy overheadpress.
And I think this is the thingthat we underestimate that we
feel like, oh, I've got to do abig ass workout.
When actually, if you break itup, you can get a lot of
benefits.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I like the grease thegroove thing.
It um it makes a lot of sense.
I feel like it's hard to pick upa kettlebell and press it every
couple hours unless you work ina year, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
But it, I mean, if someone works from home or you,
you know, it doesn't, it doesn'thave to be um, it doesn't have
to be that specific.
That's just what I what I had.
But you know, for my friendwho's trying to work on
pull-ups, they they're they'rean artist, they're at home.
I'm like, yeah, you just get oneof those like$100, put it in the
door, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
Just every time you walk through the door, two,
three pull-ups.
SPEAKER_01 (07:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
And and it and it's amazing what it can do.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
But um I like the idea of it too, because it
because it does take theemphasis away from being like,
we're working out, and this isthe container, and we gotta do,
you know, our it's gotta beharder than last week and and
all of that stuff, to just like,oh, I'm I sprinkle this thing in
across my days, yeah, and I justdo some every now and again.
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
Yeah.
And I think you know, m mobilityis very similar to that.
Like a lot of people are like,oh, but I don't really have time
to do a mobility session.
It's like, well, I mean, we weoften feel I think socially
like, oh, I can't just do it,but I can't just do a squat.
But man, if I'm in a queue or ifI got a spa, I mean, I'm like,
if I'm standing around theairport, I don't give a fuck.
Like, I mean, obviously, that'sthat's just me.
(08:37):
I'm just kind of don't care, butI find that most people start to
ignore you, they look over that,that guy's weird.
But if you were just sitting inthe way, yeah, yeah.
If they just saw you in a chair,they'd be like, that guy's
fucking weird.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Yeah, you know what I mean?
And now it's proven.
Oh god, he's squatting.
Um, you know, it's it's funny,right?
Because it it you it's likethere's an irony to this, to
this sort of um, to thisrevelation because the the gym,
right?
The gym is just a simulation oflike of life.
Yeah.
So it's like, hey man, if youlike, if you worked physically
(09:10):
hard and you just picked shit upoften and carried it around, you
would be strong and muscular.
Yeah.
But you don't.
So you come to the gym, and inthis one hour time frame, you
practice picking stuff up andwalking around and pressing, and
you get, you know, and so it'slike now what we're saying is
like just pick the shit up alittle bit and you'll get
stronger.
SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
It actually makes me think about um, I was we're at
Monster Trucks on the weekend.
Oh, yeah.
Went to Monster Gym, which isfucking sick, and it's always,
it's always a sick day, and ityou always get a lot, you always
get a lot of folks from like umprobably from like rural, like
country Australia, right?
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Outside, outer, outer submarine.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Yeah, and there was this, there was this like looked
like like straight off the farmsitting in front.
He uh he actually didn't havethe hat, but he had the hat
hair.
Oh, right.
So you could see he'd beenwearing a hat all day.
Yep.
He was tanned as fuck becausehe'd just been in the sun.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
And uh he was like um, he was like this sinewy, and
you could see though, like hislegs were like like he was
almost black, yeah.
But then when he's short, shorttan, white as fuck, right?
Like he just he was in the sunso much.
And I just noticed him becausehe was there with his wife.
They had a newborn and fourchildren.
Wow, they had five kids, and Iwas like, holy shit, and we chat
him.
They're a really nice family.
(10:21):
Um, we're interacting with theirkids a bit.
But I was looking at him and hewas just this sinewy kind of
guy, works on the land withthese big fucking hands.
Big strong hands.
And I was looking at his handsand I'm like, I bet that cunt's
got a strong grip.
Oh, yeah.
And I was just thinking abouthim like it's that farmer
strength, it's that builderstrength, it's bricklayers.
If you train with any of thesepeople, you know exactly what I
mean.
Anyone that's working on thetools has strong fucking hands
(10:44):
and grip, but they're not big.
I mean, some sometimes out, butbut that it's not exclusively,
they're not big humans, right?
Well, that's not efficient.
No, that's the thing.
And it's not that they traintheir grip or their arms or
whatever, they just do a bitthroughout the day every day,
yes, and they turn into afucking strong cunt.
SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
And it's not the muscles, it's the connective
tissue.
Like it's it's all of it, butbut that's kind of a great
example, isn't it, of of likethis greasing the groove thing.
Yes.
Those people are living in.
If you're if you're greasing thegroove in your work, you will
become a monster.
For sure.
There are a bunch of choices outthere for your strength and
mobility training.
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(11:23):
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SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
And I think the other thing which uh uh, you
know, this this gentleman at Dr.
Barr had touched on is the valueof isometrics.
And, you know, I I think thatthis is something that uh is
underrated because a lot of usout there, if you've got elbow
pain, you know, whether it'skind of medial, like inside the
elbow, or it's kind of just uhuh lateral, it's on top.
(12:27):
So we talk about flexion andextension.
If it's what they call tenniselbow or golfer's elbow,
oftentimes we're not doingisometric work.
And he was saying that's soimportant for developing tendon
and ligament strengths.
That typically comes fromcarrying or holding a position.
Yeah.
Now I don't know about you, Joe,but like what's an isometric for
(12:49):
well there's there's it'sinteresting he defined it
slightly different.
He said there's like anovercoming isometric where
you're working against a fixedspot.
Like you think if you'retightening like a wrench and
you're trying to tighten a boltand you're like, I gotta get it
a little bit more, and you andyou just give it that little bit
of extra, that's overcomingisometrics.
(13:10):
And then he I think he saidthere's like a not decreasing or
it's like a relenting where youhave to like yeah, or yielding,
yielding, yielding isometricswhere you've got to hold and not
yield, and it's kind of as longas you can hold it.
Oh, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
So he's talking about you know how you have a
wall sit, or it could no, thatcould be static, and then
yielding is when you're like itkind of like an eccentric.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Yeah, but the interesting thing about
eccentric is he was saying thatactually there's as much value
to an isometric as there is toan eccentric, yeah, even though
you know we're quite like doingeccentrics does strengthen
connective tissues, but like hewas saying that there's actually
a huge specific value to thisstress of an isometric.
(13:52):
And the thing about isometricsis you can't do them for a long
time.
And he was he was giving aprescription around like
treating elbow pain, tendinitis,but he was saying it's it's
actually just a great way to getfucking strong.
And and for advanced strengthathletes, you will see them
doing um uh overcomingisometrics, like just trying to
work a bar through a fixed pointas hard as they can.
(14:12):
But he was just saying, look, 30seconds, 30 seconds, like build
up, keep the tension, and thenchill for two minutes.
Four sets.
That's it, and that will get youfucking stronger.
And I was like, How dare you?
How dare you give such a minimumprescription to get strong?
You know, but it it's it this ishis field of research.
This is the thing he knowspretty much better than anyone.
(14:35):
And he was like, Look, you know,I think people just he the
reason why I like it was he'sgot no horse in the race,
basically.
Yeah, he's trying to work outhow to do lab engineered tendons
and ligaments.
He's trying to like, yeah,that's his that's where he wants
to come up with a like a youtore your ACL, here's an ACL we
grew for you, put it back in.
(14:55):
Yeah, that's where he's reallyfocused.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
But you know, I I would say that like that that
prescription of like it's itactually sounds bang, like it
sounds bang on with say evenwhat we of what we prescribe,
yeah.
Right?
Like if because if you thinkabout like like say we're
talking chest to bar holdsisometric, perfect.
We're usually like four or fivesets of anywhere from um like 15
to 30 seconds, yeah, 10 to 20.
(15:19):
Which equals usually somewherein the realm of 60 to 90 time
under tension.
Yeah.
If you're talking five sets offive chin-ups, let's say a rep
takes you five seconds, yeah,that's 25 seconds per set.
Yep.
You do five sets, what's fivetimes 25?
That's 125 seconds.
Yep.
So it's it falls within that,right?
Yeah, and and I I actuallyremember um, I think uh Thomas
(15:42):
Kurz talks about it in theScience of Sports training where
he's like that's about the rangeyou need to build tendon and
ligament strength.
But I also remember um fitnessFAQs and Cy Monster.
Nice, yeah, when I did aworkshop with them in Sydney,
they were like 60 to 90 seconds.
Yeah, like if you're traininglike front lever or anything
isometric, just get 60 to 90 inwhatever way you want to break
(16:02):
it out.
Whatever the dose is, and that'sgood.
Yeah, you know, and it's it'sit's a fucking Steve Maxwell,
yeah, he's been pushing the icebanging the isometric drum for
some years.
SPEAKER_02 (16:11):
Yeah, and I think for all of us, and we we've
touched on this before, when youdo BJJ, your tendons and
ligaments cop it, they justfucking cop it.
And it we we're in the art ofyanking joints, and yeah, we get
kind of hooked up on, yeah, butmy muscles and my cardio, and
yeah, but if your tendons andligaments are not healthy,
they're gonna break.
And we're in an art and a sportof breaking those tissues, so
(16:35):
we've got to reinforce them.
And the thing that kind ofreally hit hard for me was it's
actually easier to make themstronger than you think.
You don't have to max out tomake your connective tissues
stronger, but you have to do itconsistently.
That was the thing that reallykind of I got from it.
(16:56):
And it was interesting becausehe was talking about um steroids
and how steroids really, youknow, the muscles will go up,
grows a muscle, but it makes theuh tendons and ligaments um
brittle.
SPEAKER_00 (17:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
And that's why you see people who take gear tend to
get biceps tears and pec tears,and because the the tendons and
ligaments take time.
Yeah, wow, and so I I think thisis the thing that because we can
be impatient and we want topush, and don't get me wrong,
I'm someone who likes to liftheavy.
I have not that I have any jointissues at the moment, but when I
(17:26):
injured my hip, the advice thatwas given to me was to do not
maximal repetitions, it was timeunder tension to strengthen the
tendon.
Yeah, because I had done somedamage to the tendon.
So yeah, man, I I think thisthis the reason why this really
struck a chord with me is it wasvery minimal effective dose.
(17:47):
Yeah.
And so for people out there,you're like, I don't have time.
Actually, you only need about 10minutes and you do that
consistently, and you can getstronger at whatever you're
working on, what whatever thatmight be.
And so whether it be becausethis is this is where the this
is where the lines blur slightlyrelevant to like strength
training and mobility, and thisis something you and I both know
(18:10):
quite well, Joe, um, is youknow, once you're good at a
range of motion, you need to youneed to load it to kind of get
better there.
Yeah whether that be like asplit or a J curl or whatever,
and you're like, oh, but at whatpoint is this is this a stretch
versus at what point is thislike a lift?
Yeah, and it's it's all thesame, like it's it's essentially
(18:30):
the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Yeah.
But uh it's a slightly bi abias, maybe in one one direction
or the other.
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Yeah, depending on your level of capacity, right?
Like if you if you can't do a Jcurl with eight kilos, you're
not gonna do it with 60 kilos.
Yeah.
Same thing.
If you can't hold like a No,maybe you will.
SPEAKER_00 (18:45):
You just might never get out of it.
That one time.
Okay, you got it?
You got it?
Okay, okay, go.
SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
But uh, but then the same thing, like a middle split
or a horse dance, like there'sthe the thing they were talking
about was like you're talkingabout your uh you know, when
you're a kid, uh, you know, gyminstructor might get you to do
like a wall sit.
And why does that burn eventhough you're not moving?
Yeah, and it was just talkingabout the the the role between
like where your um there'sthere's muscles that will take
(19:14):
over because they're stronger,and at a critical point, once
they fatigue, the the the loadwill go to tendons, and that's
why holding for an extendedperiod of time is actually is
helpful.
And uh yeah, man, it's it's agreat thing.
I I listened to it and I waslike, you know what?
This is fucking great.
We've got to talk about thismore because you can get
(19:34):
stronger in a shorter time, andit's just a matter of doing it
consistently and you'll getthere.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Yeah, I think particularly for um for like
body weight exercises or acouple of movements you want to
get better at, if you can havethe apparatus close by, like you
said, the the pull-up bar in thedoorway, so that you can just
fuck around with it, you know,whatever, maybe in the morning
before you go to work, maybewhen you come home every day,
like this will be a huge unlock.
(20:01):
Like you will if it it becomespart of your day, yeah, versus
you showing up to the gym andworking on pull-ups once a week.
SPEAKER_02 (20:07):
Yeah.
Uh the the the frequency thingis massive and and working
sub-maximally.
SPEAKER_01 (20:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
I think that we're really sold on you've got to
work maximally to get strong.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
But actually, the research shows even at the
highest level, you can improveyour maximal strength by working
submaximally.
It's safer and you can getstrong.
There it is, folks.
Get it.
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