October 11, 2025 • 23 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Essentially, at this point, the fight is over.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
So you pretty much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trusted withthe secret to limitless people?
I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Jiu-Jitsu as a martial art versus BJJ as a
sport.
Now the divide is strong and ismuch debated within the
community as to whether or notthe martial arts philosophy and
the way it has been done in thepast means anything.
Is that irrelevant?
Has the sport of BJJ slashgrappling evolved and now made
(00:57):
the kind of martial artstraditional side of things
irrelevant?
And actually, you know, I feelthat this is the martial arts
versus sports conversation.
There's actually a lot more toit than what people are saying,
which is kind of like gi versusno gee, old school, new school.
Like I think it's a bit morenuanced than that.
And I'll I actually want to getinto it because I kind of got
(01:18):
into a bit of a debate aboutthis with someone the other day.
Right on.
And so the way that I'm puttingthis down is we're looking more
at say a philosophical elementof like understanding the bigger
picture and how it all goestogether versus achievement,
which is just results.
Because a lot of people willjust point to the results.
(01:38):
They're like, yeah, but ifyou've got an 18-year-old, like
ex, you know, like high schoolwrestler who's a white belt in
jujitsu, but he can just tap outa black belt, they're not a
black belt.
And it's like, hang on a second.
Like that's achievement and andand what you build as knowledge
and like wisdom over time areactually two very different
things.
SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Don't get me wrong, I'm I'm all about people having
really high performance andachievement, but I don't think
one necessarily like is betterthan or deletes the other.
And I think there's actually asolid relationship between them.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
So the the context I want to put around this is uh I
actually got into a pretty deepconversation with um an old judo
guy in San Francisco, and hiscoach, Wally J had trained with
Bruce Lee.
Oh, cool.
And he wanted to, he just he wason his way out the gym.
I was walking into the gym, andthey're like, Oh, we want you to
(02:35):
meet this guy.
It's like, oh, you're fromAustralia.
And this guy just wanted to tella Bruce Lee story.
And I was like, hey, up for it.
I'm fucking here for that.
Tell me the ways, you know.
And actually, you gotta becareful what you're asked for,
Joe.
So, anyway, without withoutdetracting too much or side
questing too much on this one,he basically talked to me for an
hour about Bruce Lee learning, Ithink it's called small circle
(02:58):
uh judo or round circle jujitsu.
And and and it Wally J was themaster of this.
He introduced a lot of uh judoto the Bay Area and he trained
with Bruce Lee.
And so this guy was telling thestory of being like a young kind
of lower belt in judo and goingand seeing them training and
yeah, like telling stories abouthow he knew Linda Lee and it was
(03:18):
pretty phenomenal.
But the thing that he reallythat came across from him, it's
not that, oh, he's somemasterful practitioner, even
though he's a very high-rankedjudo um older gentleman, it's
this philosophy that camethrough.
And part of the reason why BruceLee is so beloved isn't just
that he was a weapon and hecould fight and he was really
(03:39):
fit, it was his philosophy.
And I think this is a thing thatum we we start to lose with the
focus on sport and entertainmentand everything, is that the
philosophy that comes throughfrom martial art is really that
thing that sustains you on thisthis longer path.
And I mean, I'm I'm a huge fanof Bruce Lee's, but part of the
(04:01):
reason why I loved him so muchwasn't just the movies, is like
when I start to read his books,I'm like, God damn, this guy's
like fucking he's smart, he'sgot some deep thoughts going on
here.
And I mean you're you're a BruceLee fan, um, Joe.
You you either get into thatthat that philosophical side,
not just the uh Action Jacksonside of things.
SPEAKER_02 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Um actually Adam Adam Charlesgave me a a book of Bruce Lee's
uh philosophical writings, whichuh, you know, it's not the kind
of I didn't read it cover tocover, but it's like it's
interesting, right?
It's like his just kind ofmusings on this on philosophy,
right?
Um, and I think I think foranyone around our age, yeah, we
(04:40):
got into martial arts because ofwell, we got into jujitsu
because of martial arts culture.
Yes.
And that martial arts culturewas sold to us through the
action films of the 80s and 90s,sure, right?
Stephen Sagal, Bruce Lee, ChuckNorris, yeah, Van Dam, you know,
um, Jackie Chan, Jet Lee, likeall this.
Sure.
And obviously some of thosepeople better actual martial
(05:03):
artists than others, some ofthem just, you know, half-decent
actors.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Um, but so so for all of us, that was the
foundation, right?
Like you think about um Hard toKill Steven Segal.
Sure.
And the one of the most iconicscenes in that whole fucking
movie for me is when he'srehabbing himself coming out of
the coma.
And he does the and he's puttingthe he's giving himself
acupuncture.
Yeah.
And you're like, oh my god, he'sputting needles in himself.
(05:29):
And then he's got the fuckingburning, the burning incense on
the end of the needle, andyou're like, oh, this is so
hectic.
Magical Eastern magic.
Right?
And it's it was that wholefucking like prick tease of like
secret Chinese shit, yeah, youknow, like like kumite.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The dark arts, the dim muck.
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Yeah, like and talking like Ari's gym.
We're talking about that before.
Kumite jujitsu.
Yeah, definitely.
It's like the whole the wholeeastern thing is is a thing for
us.
Now, um the culture that we'rein, though, like in the West, is
Western culture.
Sure.
And so I think for us, it's thethe Eastern side always presents
a little bit of that mystique.
(06:09):
Um, but our bias is always towesternize things.
SPEAKER_03 (06:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
And then and I mean, I'm I'm going a bit meta here,
but I actually did aconversation on Joe the JB's
podcast, East versus WesternStrength Philosophy.
Ah, okay, interesting.
And my whole contention there isthat the West is inherently
reductionist.
Okay.
And so it wants to reduceeverything down to just the
effective thing.
Yeah.
And a really great example ofthis is that ancient cultures
(06:35):
through it for thousands ofyears, for fucking generations,
have eaten turmeric root becausethey know it to be incredibly
healthy.
Fucking lowers your cholesterol,reduces blood pressure.
Inflammation, right?
But so in the West, we createcurcumin tablets, which is a
fucking reduced tablet of theactive ingredient in turmeric.
It's like you could just cook adelicious curry, but instead you
(06:58):
want to buy a supplement andhave the pill.
So in any case, I think thatthat inherent bias towards
reductionism, we do a similarthing in jujitsu.
It's like, look what's workingon the mats.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
And so sports jujitsu starts to prevail, but
it's sort of bitness in the asswhere a lot of us are like,
actually, I kind of like thewhole martial arts thing.
I like the bowing.
Yeah.
I thought the gi was coolbecause it's like a uniform and
shit.
Yeah.
You know, so and and not, um,you know, everyone knows I'm a
big no-gi fan, but sure, I thinkin our quest for effectiveness
(07:30):
and efficiency, we we're we'resacrificing something.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
I no, I agree with you.
I I mean the the the reason whyI wanted to have this chat is
the the argument, well, notargument, the discussion I had
with this person is they weretalking about Gordon Ryan.
And actually that argument waspretty flawed.
SPEAKER_02 (07:47):
The poster boy of the of the Western approach.
Yeah, which is you know he's theDolph Lundgren, ironically, like
he's jabbing it all up.
And then just the winningest,the winningest, but also a
vacuous, superficial,valuesless, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Yeah, and and sorry if you're friends with him.
No, I mean, whatever.
I don't I don't know himpersonally, but I know people
who train with him and know him,and he's polarizing.
The people who are in his camplove him and think he's he's the
greatest.
And then and and and and evenpeople who don't like him
acknowledge his skill, theyacknowledge how great he is.
(08:22):
Undeniable, undeniable how goodat jujitsu he is.
This doesn't mean that he hassomething to share with you
philosophically.
The argument that this personwas saying was like, well,
Gordon Ryan just doesbodybuilding workouts, like that
must be the best workout forjujitsu.
You're like, no, dickhead.
That's that is not the answer.
Like I think someone, you know,and this probably goes a little
(08:45):
bit more between the idea ofwhat makes a great athlete and
what can make a great coach.
And when you get into more themartial arts side of things and
we're looking more at thephilosophy, the why behind the
how, as much as you've got a lotof great people, like uh you
know, and I I I'm not sayingthis to throw shade in any way,
because I'm sure all of thesepeople I'm gonna name have some
(09:08):
philosophy behind what they do,but it hasn't been communicated.
So let me give some examplesGordon Wright, Brock Lesnar,
John Jones, like these peopleare examples of athletic
monsters, people who'vedominated and just done things
other people have not done.
(09:30):
But if you try to talk to themabout the why and the the the
understanding, it's not therebecause they don't give a shit.
They're not trying to do it tohelp another person or better
understand life or anythingelse.
They're just there about I justdid what it taked to win.
And that's what I did.
And I do the I do what it takes,and that's it.
(09:52):
And fuck, who cares what anyoneelse thinks?
You know, and there is a if youlook at some of these people
It's like the the results, theresults are the most important
thing.
Yeah, and maybe that you couldsay that's a philosophy, but I
believe that there is there is aa midpoint.
I I think you can I think youcan do both.
I think there are examples ofpeople who but anyway, I've kind
(10:13):
of I digress.
The reason why I wanted to namethese people, and I would even
go so far as if we want to gomore to the gi, a guy like
Jacaré Souza, who beat HodgerGracie, beat a number of people,
and it wasn't necessarilybecause he doesn't have a
philosophy, but maybe he didn'thave the means to articulate it,
or he didn't have the platformbecause he was, you know, uh
(10:35):
like a poorer Brazilian and andmaybe didn't have the social
media when he was successful,you know.
But I think of Jacquaret Souzaas an amazing athlete.
But if you think of him, likewho are his students?
Who did he coach?
Who did he produce?
Do you know what I mean?
Like you look at a lot of thesegreat athletes, they had no
intention to go beyondthemselves.
(10:55):
They're doing it for themselves,and that's fine.
SPEAKER_02 (10:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
I mean, yeah, I mean, I suppose in defense of
that, arguably, you have to bevery selfish to be the best,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah.
There is there is a component ofthat, but that doesn't mean that
you don't have a really solid,like uh an understanding behind
it, which the set of values andfuels that and I mean so let's
say if you you know youmentioned like Lesnar, John
Jones, etc.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Everyone like you can compare that and then you go
George St.
Pierre.
Well, that's this is where we'regoing.
This is where we're going.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
So if we go to the other side of that, and you
know, you know, I know peopleare not gonna agree with me on
this, but I think the reason whysomeone like a Bruce Lee, uh
Hickson Gracie, right?
John Danaher.
John Danaher, uh, I'm gonna go,actually, this might sound a bit
far out, but let me explain.
Eddie Bravo.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
And I'm also gonna say at the end of the list, Phil
Jackson.
As the the coach of the Bullsand then the coach of LA.
SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
Why are you fucking going into the NBA then?
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
I am, I am.
Stay with me.
The reason why these guys havehad such a big impact on the
culture is they had more to sayother than just do the umbar
like this.
Yeah, this is how many timesI've won.
Yeah.
They had people who were theirpeers who were maybe as achieved
athletically, but or maybe theyweren't that achieved
(12:20):
athletically, them personally,yeah, but their impact is
greater because they did thinkabout it, they did put together
systems, they did go furtherthan just achievement.
SPEAKER_03 (12:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
And this is, I believe, born of that martial
arts element, which is thephilosophy.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
What about fucking Abdulmanap Numagomedov?
I mean, here's a you know, Idon't know if you've watched
anything on some of them.
But but there's a but there's aset of values, right?
And there's a philosophy behindthis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
There is, there is for sure, and maybe it's not as
accessible because it's bluntforce trauma, um, which is oh,
you're a six-year-old child,wrestle at bear.
You don't get food till youfucking wrestle that bear.
Yeah, I mean, it's tough, right?
I mean, you could say the sameabout, like, say, um uh Tiger
Woods, right?
Amazing athlete, but you know,his father pushed him a lot, and
(13:09):
we've seen that come undone,right?
Because morally,philosophically, maybe there's a
there's a gap there.
Well, there's a yeah, lines canget crossed, right?
Well, no, no.
The reason why I'm saying thisis like, because you the reason
why I say this is the reason whyI mentioned Eddie Bravo, amongst
that, is even though Eddie was akind of counterculture uh icon,
(13:31):
I guess, in that 90s period ofjujitsu, and he was smoking weed
when that was far less you knowacceptable.
And I actually didn't like thatabout him.
I didn't smoke weed at thattime.
I was like, man, I think that'sa a note against him.
But what he had was he just hada different philosophy on
training, and he was sosteadfast in it, he decided to
invent this whole other system,right?
(13:51):
And the thing that attracted hiscrowd and his audience, and the
reason why 10th planet stillexists to this day is because he
had like an alternatephilosophy, which wasn't the
mainstream jiu-jitsu philosophy.
Yeah, you know, and it it is itsown phenomenon within the
culture, and you could say thathe's one of the pioneers of
no-gi jujitsu or for sure, yeah.
(14:14):
Like that's what he did.
And the reason why I think whyChoke, the documentary, is so
powerful, is because Hickson hasthis, it's kind of like a
sage-like um wisdom, wisdom,yeah.
And he's a fucking brute, right?
He's beaten the fuck out ofpeople bare knuckle.
It's not that he's not theathlete and he's not a beast, he
(14:35):
is, but he has this otherelement which gives you more.
And I feel like the interplaybetween these, if you look at
it, is it will be very difficultto have a Gordon Ryan without a
John Danaher.
You know, like you the I thinkwhere we're losing or where
jujitsu is maybe missing out inour big attention on big
(14:59):
performance and big athletes, isthat we don't actually look at
what produces them other thanthe individual.
You know, like you if you if youonly focus on John Jones, you
forget that he had Greg Jackson.
Like, you know, he would hemaybe wouldn't have become what
he'd become without without thehelp of Greg Jackson.
(15:20):
And that, you know, reallyMichael Jordan couldn't have
become Michael Jordan withoutPhil Jackson, uh, the basketball
coach, because he was quite zen,and you know, Jordan was such an
intense motherfucker that heactually needed someone to be
like, all right, look, Michael,don't punch everyone's face in
today.
Like, let's just play basketballtogether, kind of thing.
You know, and he he had anamazing way.
(15:41):
He did it with Dennis Rodman, hedid it with all these people
because I mean, it wasn't thathe was a star athlete, he was a
he did, Phil Jackson did performand did a lot of things, but his
ability to give the philosophyacross, which it sounds strange
to draw martial arts, um, but hefollowed Zen philosophy, he
followed uh Buddhist philosophyto try to enable people to do
(16:04):
their best.
And I I feel like the theproblem with the attention, the
attention goes to achievement.
That's what we give a fuckabout.
Give me the results.
Connor McGregor, fuck yeah,that's entertaining, that's
sexy, that's hot.
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SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
But uh, so who is Connor McGregor's coach?
I fuck, I forget his name.
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
Oh yeah.
Uh John.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
John, someone or other?
It'll anyway.
It'll come to us.
It'll come to us, or I'll searchit.
But really, his major role wasjust trying to contain Connor.
You know what I mean?
Like just keep him on track.
And I feel that what we misswhen we just focus on
achievement and we just thinkabout sports jujitsu, we forget
that there needs to be a guidingprinciple behind it.
(17:36):
Even if it's not the personalphilosophy of the athlete, it's
there to kind of keep them fromgoing off the fucking thing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Yeah, I mean, this is this is the whole idea behind
a culture, right?
A culture is like a like afoundation upon which a person
can return to, and it helps toguide their behavior and
decision making.
So yeah, it's not.
I mean, I don't see it as likethere's anything wrong with the
with the pursuit of winning orthe the absolute like John
(18:04):
Kavanaugh.
John Kavanaugh.
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
The the necessity to be completely selfish when you
are at that top level becauseyou are like you're fucking
that's what you or your wholewaking hours are dedicated
towards you winning.
But in the absence of havingsome kind of culture or you
know, um some sort of bedrockthat can help ground you.
I mean, this is a great exampleof, and this is what I'm getting
(18:28):
at with the with Nemagomedov,right?
The father, Kabib versus Connor.
Yeah, you could you couldliterally see Connor become
corrupted by his own success.
Of course.
You could see it with JohnJones, less so, but no, no, no.
It was I mean, John Jones isjust kind of uh just seems like
a crazy piece.
Crazy character.
Yeah, it just seems like a pieceof shit, just like a bit of a
bad dude.
But but Connor, you couldactually, because for a time
(18:50):
there, Connor's Connor's winningwas exactly what he needed to
propel himself forward.
Yeah, but then it got to a pointwhere it's just started to
undermine his whole fucking youknow existence, and now he's
just a piece of shit.
Yeah.
Whereas you see someone likeKhib, who was so like so staunch
in like so attached to hisculture, so staunch in the
(19:10):
values, right?
Yeah, of being a Muslim, being aDagestani, whatever it was,
right?
All of those things.
Um, you know, the way heretired, the way he conducted
himself.
But so you're like having thathaving that cultural bedrock.
Grounding is it's grounding,exactly, right?
And that's GSP's that guy, LeoMachida's that guy.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Well, exactly.
Well, I was gonna say Charles DeBronx, right?
Like you can look at thesepeople who have achieved the
highest heights, and yeah,there's a degree of self-focus
to achieve it, but it doesn'tmean you have to be a selfish
piece of shit.
Like we can see Charles De Bronxwin or lose.
He's still very respectful ofthe opponent, almost loving.
You know, you see him win orlose.
(19:48):
Like even when he got knockedout, he was like, Oh man, like
good for you, you know.
Like he was, and that guy givesa fuck about his hood.
Like he's yeah, he's from theghetto.
Yeah, and and yes, I think I Ihad GSP here, but I was gonna
say, look at a guy like MohammedAli, right?
He had the philosophy as well asbeing an amazing athlete.
You know, he's Did he?
I'm less familiar.
Well, Mohammed Ali went to jailbecause he said, Well, I'm not
(20:10):
gonna go bomb the Vietnam.
He's like, he said, Viet Congnever called me the N-word.
Yeah, right.
And he literally went to getinscripted and they they
publicized it.
He lost his heavyweight title.
He lost like, I think, like sixyears of his prime to being
locked up.
Yeah, wow, because he wouldn'tgo fight in the Vietnam War.
And, you know, I I wouldactually say, like, George St.
(20:30):
Pierre, the reason why he's sobeloved is he kept that martial
arts.
He was an amazing athlete, youlike one of the most athletic
guys in in that era, but he keptthose principles and he wouldn't
curse and he wouldn't, yeah, hewouldn't be as entertaining as a
Diaz brother.
You know, like he was fuckinghell.
I love that shit.
(20:51):
Yeah, you know, and I look, Ithink Rose Nama Yunus is a
really good example of somebodywho it was so important for her
to be a good person.
Like that was as much as she'swanted to knock you out, like
she just wanted everyone to knowthat it she wanted to be an
example of like principle, yeah,and and and keeping that.
And so in this discussion of Iof martial arts versus sports, I
(21:13):
believe there is like aninterplay, like a strong
interplay that that that thatphilosophy and the people who do
take time to build that are thesupport system, as you say, the
culture, the bedrock, that theseperformances, these high
performers can be built on.
And you can just see it's kindof sad, right?
That a lot of these topperformers, they kind of it is
(21:35):
hollow because they become thechampion and then now what?
Yeah, like it's you know, likethe result is is one percent of
this whole journey.
And if all you're doing is speedreading to read the last line of
the book, then you kind of missthe point.
And and I feel like for the bestpart, um, a lot of folks in
(21:57):
jiu-jitsu are getting distractedby just focusing on the
achievement of the outcomewithout actually cultivating any
philosophy or any understandingthere.
SPEAKER_02 (22:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a cautionary tale
because you like going back,yeah, going specifically into
our world of jujitsu, you it'svery easy to get caught up in
the in what's working.
And then you and then you sortof just start, then you sort of
sacrifice, you're like, no, I'mnot in the philosophical world,
I just want to fucking learn thetechniques that are dominating
(22:28):
right now.
And then before before long,you're like, Well, I've departed
from from maybe the actual thingthat got you into it, or maybe
not, maybe you never got into itfor that.
Um, but then it's like, allright, well, whatever, like once
your competition years are overand stuff like what then?
What do you got?
Yeah, like if it's all aboutthat, you know, and potentially
then it's like, well, that now'syour time to exit.
(22:48):
Yeah, you know, but I think forlike I know for me, right?
The these days I'm like, oh, I'mseeing a role that can be played
within the culture that sitsoutside of just being the
toughest guy in the room.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
And I would actually say there is huge leverage to
the black belt trying to be thetoughest guy in the room.
Well, do what you like.
I mean, don't I I would never Iwould never discourage that, but
I think the problem is somepeople start to feel like they
lose their value because they'renot that guy anymore.
Maybe they were.
Yeah.
But actually the the the hugepoint of contribution is your
(23:19):
ability to help another person,and then that enables them to be
great.
And that that is that isactually, I think, the the great
kind of circle of jujitsu lifeis when you can enable others
and then the culture continues,and that's what we love.
Let's keep it going, folks.
Essentially, at this point, the fight is over.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
So you pretty much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trusted withthe secret to limitless people?
I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Jiu-Jitsu as a martial art versus BJJ as a
sport.
Now the divide is strong and ismuch debated within the
community as to whether or notthe martial arts philosophy and
the way it has been done in thepast means anything.
Is that irrelevant?
Has the sport of BJJ slashgrappling evolved and now made
(00:57):
the kind of martial artstraditional side of things
irrelevant?
And actually, you know, I feelthat this is the martial arts
versus sports conversation.
There's actually a lot more toit than what people are saying,
which is kind of like gi versusno gee, old school, new school.
Like I think it's a bit morenuanced than that.
And I'll I actually want to getinto it because I kind of got
(01:18):
into a bit of a debate aboutthis with someone the other day.
Right on.
And so the way that I'm puttingthis down is we're looking more
at say a philosophical elementof like understanding the bigger
picture and how it all goestogether versus achievement,
which is just results.
Because a lot of people willjust point to the results.
(01:38):
They're like, yeah, but ifyou've got an 18-year-old, like
ex, you know, like high schoolwrestler who's a white belt in
jujitsu, but he can just tap outa black belt, they're not a
black belt.
And it's like, hang on a second.
Like that's achievement and andand what you build as knowledge
and like wisdom over time areactually two very different
things.
SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Don't get me wrong, I'm I'm all about people having
really high performance andachievement, but I don't think
one necessarily like is betterthan or deletes the other.
And I think there's actually asolid relationship between them.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
So the the context I want to put around this is uh I
actually got into a pretty deepconversation with um an old judo
guy in San Francisco, and hiscoach, Wally J had trained with
Bruce Lee.
Oh, cool.
And he wanted to, he just he wason his way out the gym.
I was walking into the gym, andthey're like, Oh, we want you to
(02:35):
meet this guy.
It's like, oh, you're fromAustralia.
And this guy just wanted to tella Bruce Lee story.
And I was like, hey, up for it.
I'm fucking here for that.
Tell me the ways, you know.
And actually, you gotta becareful what you're asked for,
Joe.
So, anyway, without withoutdetracting too much or side
questing too much on this one,he basically talked to me for an
hour about Bruce Lee learning, Ithink it's called small circle
(02:58):
uh judo or round circle jujitsu.
And and and it Wally J was themaster of this.
He introduced a lot of uh judoto the Bay Area and he trained
with Bruce Lee.
And so this guy was telling thestory of being like a young kind
of lower belt in judo and goingand seeing them training and
yeah, like telling stories abouthow he knew Linda Lee and it was
(03:18):
pretty phenomenal.
But the thing that he reallythat came across from him, it's
not that, oh, he's somemasterful practitioner, even
though he's a very high-rankedjudo um older gentleman, it's
this philosophy that camethrough.
And part of the reason why BruceLee is so beloved isn't just
that he was a weapon and hecould fight and he was really
(03:39):
fit, it was his philosophy.
And I think this is a thing thatum we we start to lose with the
focus on sport and entertainmentand everything, is that the
philosophy that comes throughfrom martial art is really that
thing that sustains you on thisthis longer path.
And I mean, I'm I'm a huge fanof Bruce Lee's, but part of the
(04:01):
reason why I loved him so muchwasn't just the movies, is like
when I start to read his books,I'm like, God damn, this guy's
like fucking he's smart, he'sgot some deep thoughts going on
here.
And I mean you're you're a BruceLee fan, um, Joe.
You you either get into thatthat that philosophical side,
not just the uh Action Jacksonside of things.
SPEAKER_02 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Um actually Adam Adam Charlesgave me a a book of Bruce Lee's
uh philosophical writings, whichuh, you know, it's not the kind
of I didn't read it cover tocover, but it's like it's
interesting, right?
It's like his just kind ofmusings on this on philosophy,
right?
Um, and I think I think foranyone around our age, yeah, we
(04:40):
got into martial arts because ofwell, we got into jujitsu
because of martial arts culture.
Yes.
And that martial arts culturewas sold to us through the
action films of the 80s and 90s,sure, right?
Stephen Sagal, Bruce Lee, ChuckNorris, yeah, Van Dam, you know,
um, Jackie Chan, Jet Lee, likeall this.
Sure.
And obviously some of thosepeople better actual martial
(05:03):
artists than others, some ofthem just, you know, half-decent
actors.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Um, but so so for all of us, that was the
foundation, right?
Like you think about um Hard toKill Steven Segal.
Sure.
And the one of the most iconicscenes in that whole fucking
movie for me is when he'srehabbing himself coming out of
the coma.
And he does the and he's puttingthe he's giving himself
acupuncture.
Yeah.
And you're like, oh my god, he'sputting needles in himself.
(05:29):
And then he's got the fuckingburning, the burning incense on
the end of the needle, andyou're like, oh, this is so
hectic.
Magical Eastern magic.
Right?
And it's it was that wholefucking like prick tease of like
secret Chinese shit, yeah, youknow, like like kumite.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The dark arts, the dim muck.
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Yeah, like and talking like Ari's gym.
We're talking about that before.
Kumite jujitsu.
Yeah, definitely.
It's like the whole the wholeeastern thing is is a thing for
us.
Now, um the culture that we'rein, though, like in the West, is
Western culture.
Sure.
And so I think for us, it's thethe Eastern side always presents
a little bit of that mystique.
(06:09):
Um, but our bias is always towesternize things.
SPEAKER_03 (06:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
And then and I mean, I'm I'm going a bit meta here,
but I actually did aconversation on Joe the JB's
podcast, East versus WesternStrength Philosophy.
Ah, okay, interesting.
And my whole contention there isthat the West is inherently
reductionist.
Okay.
And so it wants to reduceeverything down to just the
effective thing.
Yeah.
And a really great example ofthis is that ancient cultures
(06:35):
through it for thousands ofyears, for fucking generations,
have eaten turmeric root becausethey know it to be incredibly
healthy.
Fucking lowers your cholesterol,reduces blood pressure.
Inflammation, right?
But so in the West, we createcurcumin tablets, which is a
fucking reduced tablet of theactive ingredient in turmeric.
It's like you could just cook adelicious curry, but instead you
(06:58):
want to buy a supplement andhave the pill.
So in any case, I think thatthat inherent bias towards
reductionism, we do a similarthing in jujitsu.
It's like, look what's workingon the mats.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
And so sports jujitsu starts to prevail, but
it's sort of bitness in the asswhere a lot of us are like,
actually, I kind of like thewhole martial arts thing.
I like the bowing.
Yeah.
I thought the gi was coolbecause it's like a uniform and
shit.
Yeah.
You know, so and and not, um,you know, everyone knows I'm a
big no-gi fan, but sure, I thinkin our quest for effectiveness
(07:30):
and efficiency, we we're we'resacrificing something.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
I no, I agree with you.
I I mean the the the reason whyI wanted to have this chat is
the the argument, well, notargument, the discussion I had
with this person is they weretalking about Gordon Ryan.
And actually that argument waspretty flawed.
SPEAKER_02 (07:47):
The poster boy of the of the Western approach.
Yeah, which is you know he's theDolph Lundgren, ironically, like
he's jabbing it all up.
And then just the winningest,the winningest, but also a
vacuous, superficial,valuesless, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Yeah, and and sorry if you're friends with him.
No, I mean, whatever.
I don't I don't know himpersonally, but I know people
who train with him and know him,and he's polarizing.
The people who are in his camplove him and think he's he's the
greatest.
And then and and and and evenpeople who don't like him
acknowledge his skill, theyacknowledge how great he is.
(08:22):
Undeniable, undeniable how goodat jujitsu he is.
This doesn't mean that he hassomething to share with you
philosophically.
The argument that this personwas saying was like, well,
Gordon Ryan just doesbodybuilding workouts, like that
must be the best workout forjujitsu.
You're like, no, dickhead.
That's that is not the answer.
Like I think someone, you know,and this probably goes a little
(08:45):
bit more between the idea ofwhat makes a great athlete and
what can make a great coach.
And when you get into more themartial arts side of things and
we're looking more at thephilosophy, the why behind the
how, as much as you've got a lotof great people, like uh you
know, and I I I'm not sayingthis to throw shade in any way,
because I'm sure all of thesepeople I'm gonna name have some
(09:08):
philosophy behind what they do,but it hasn't been communicated.
So let me give some examplesGordon Wright, Brock Lesnar,
John Jones, like these peopleare examples of athletic
monsters, people who'vedominated and just done things
other people have not done.
(09:30):
But if you try to talk to themabout the why and the the the
understanding, it's not therebecause they don't give a shit.
They're not trying to do it tohelp another person or better
understand life or anythingelse.
They're just there about I justdid what it taked to win.
And that's what I did.
And I do the I do what it takes,and that's it.
(09:52):
And fuck, who cares what anyoneelse thinks?
You know, and there is a if youlook at some of these people
It's like the the results, theresults are the most important
thing.
Yeah, and maybe that you couldsay that's a philosophy, but I
believe that there is there is aa midpoint.
I I think you can I think youcan do both.
I think there are examples ofpeople who but anyway, I've kind
(10:13):
of I digress.
The reason why I wanted to namethese people, and I would even
go so far as if we want to gomore to the gi, a guy like
Jacaré Souza, who beat HodgerGracie, beat a number of people,
and it wasn't necessarilybecause he doesn't have a
philosophy, but maybe he didn'thave the means to articulate it,
or he didn't have the platformbecause he was, you know, uh
(10:35):
like a poorer Brazilian and andmaybe didn't have the social
media when he was successful,you know.
But I think of Jacquaret Souzaas an amazing athlete.
But if you think of him, likewho are his students?
Who did he coach?
Who did he produce?
Do you know what I mean?
Like you look at a lot of thesegreat athletes, they had no
intention to go beyondthemselves.
(10:55):
They're doing it for themselves,and that's fine.
SPEAKER_02 (10:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
I mean, yeah, I mean, I suppose in defense of
that, arguably, you have to bevery selfish to be the best,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah.
There is there is a component ofthat, but that doesn't mean that
you don't have a really solid,like uh an understanding behind
it, which the set of values andfuels that and I mean so let's
say if you you know youmentioned like Lesnar, John
Jones, etc.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Everyone like you can compare that and then you go
George St.
Pierre.
Well, that's this is where we'regoing.
This is where we're going.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
So if we go to the other side of that, and you
know, you know, I know peopleare not gonna agree with me on
this, but I think the reason whysomeone like a Bruce Lee, uh
Hickson Gracie, right?
John Danaher.
John Danaher, uh, I'm gonna go,actually, this might sound a bit
far out, but let me explain.
Eddie Bravo.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
And I'm also gonna say at the end of the list, Phil
Jackson.
As the the coach of the Bullsand then the coach of LA.
SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
Why are you fucking going into the NBA then?
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
I am, I am.
Stay with me.
The reason why these guys havehad such a big impact on the
culture is they had more to sayother than just do the umbar
like this.
Yeah, this is how many timesI've won.
Yeah.
They had people who were theirpeers who were maybe as achieved
athletically, but or maybe theyweren't that achieved
(12:20):
athletically, them personally,yeah, but their impact is
greater because they did thinkabout it, they did put together
systems, they did go furtherthan just achievement.
SPEAKER_03 (12:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
And this is, I believe, born of that martial
arts element, which is thephilosophy.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
What about fucking Abdulmanap Numagomedov?
I mean, here's a you know, Idon't know if you've watched
anything on some of them.
But but there's a but there's aset of values, right?
And there's a philosophy behindthis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
There is, there is for sure, and maybe it's not as
accessible because it's bluntforce trauma, um, which is oh,
you're a six-year-old child,wrestle at bear.
You don't get food till youfucking wrestle that bear.
Yeah, I mean, it's tough, right?
I mean, you could say the sameabout, like, say, um uh Tiger
Woods, right?
Amazing athlete, but you know,his father pushed him a lot, and
(13:09):
we've seen that come undone,right?
Because morally,philosophically, maybe there's a
there's a gap there.
Well, there's a yeah, lines canget crossed, right?
Well, no, no.
The reason why I'm saying thisis like, because you the reason
why I say this is the reason whyI mentioned Eddie Bravo, amongst
that, is even though Eddie was akind of counterculture uh icon,
(13:31):
I guess, in that 90s period ofjujitsu, and he was smoking weed
when that was far less you knowacceptable.
And I actually didn't like thatabout him.
I didn't smoke weed at thattime.
I was like, man, I think that'sa a note against him.
But what he had was he just hada different philosophy on
training, and he was sosteadfast in it, he decided to
invent this whole other system,right?
(13:51):
And the thing that attracted hiscrowd and his audience, and the
reason why 10th planet stillexists to this day is because he
had like an alternatephilosophy, which wasn't the
mainstream jiu-jitsu philosophy.
Yeah, you know, and it it is itsown phenomenon within the
culture, and you could say thathe's one of the pioneers of
no-gi jujitsu or for sure, yeah.
(14:14):
Like that's what he did.
And the reason why I think whyChoke, the documentary, is so
powerful, is because Hickson hasthis, it's kind of like a
sage-like um wisdom, wisdom,yeah.
And he's a fucking brute, right?
He's beaten the fuck out ofpeople bare knuckle.
It's not that he's not theathlete and he's not a beast, he
(14:35):
is, but he has this otherelement which gives you more.
And I feel like the interplaybetween these, if you look at
it, is it will be very difficultto have a Gordon Ryan without a
John Danaher.
You know, like you the I thinkwhere we're losing or where
jujitsu is maybe missing out inour big attention on big
(14:59):
performance and big athletes, isthat we don't actually look at
what produces them other thanthe individual.
You know, like you if you if youonly focus on John Jones, you
forget that he had Greg Jackson.
Like, you know, he would hemaybe wouldn't have become what
he'd become without without thehelp of Greg Jackson.
(15:20):
And that, you know, reallyMichael Jordan couldn't have
become Michael Jordan withoutPhil Jackson, uh, the basketball
coach, because he was quite zen,and you know, Jordan was such an
intense motherfucker that heactually needed someone to be
like, all right, look, Michael,don't punch everyone's face in
today.
Like, let's just play basketballtogether, kind of thing.
You know, and he he had anamazing way.
(15:41):
He did it with Dennis Rodman, hedid it with all these people
because I mean, it wasn't thathe was a star athlete, he was a
he did, Phil Jackson did performand did a lot of things, but his
ability to give the philosophyacross, which it sounds strange
to draw martial arts, um, but hefollowed Zen philosophy, he
followed uh Buddhist philosophyto try to enable people to do
(16:04):
their best.
And I I feel like the theproblem with the attention, the
attention goes to achievement.
That's what we give a fuckabout.
Give me the results.
Connor McGregor, fuck yeah,that's entertaining, that's
sexy, that's hot.
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
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SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
But uh, so who is Connor McGregor's coach?
I fuck, I forget his name.
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
Oh yeah.
Uh John.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
John, someone or other?
It'll anyway.
It'll come to us.
It'll come to us, or I'll searchit.
But really, his major role wasjust trying to contain Connor.
You know what I mean?
Like just keep him on track.
And I feel that what we misswhen we just focus on
achievement and we just thinkabout sports jujitsu, we forget
that there needs to be a guidingprinciple behind it.
(17:36):
Even if it's not the personalphilosophy of the athlete, it's
there to kind of keep them fromgoing off the fucking thing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Yeah, I mean, this is this is the whole idea behind
a culture, right?
A culture is like a like afoundation upon which a person
can return to, and it helps toguide their behavior and
decision making.
So yeah, it's not.
I mean, I don't see it as likethere's anything wrong with the
with the pursuit of winning orthe the absolute like John
(18:04):
Kavanaugh.
John Kavanaugh.
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
The the necessity to be completely selfish when you
are at that top level becauseyou are like you're fucking
that's what you or your wholewaking hours are dedicated
towards you winning.
But in the absence of havingsome kind of culture or you
know, um some sort of bedrockthat can help ground you.
I mean, this is a great exampleof, and this is what I'm getting
(18:28):
at with the with Nemagomedov,right?
The father, Kabib versus Connor.
Yeah, you could you couldliterally see Connor become
corrupted by his own success.
Of course.
You could see it with JohnJones, less so, but no, no, no.
It was I mean, John Jones isjust kind of uh just seems like
a crazy piece.
Crazy character.
Yeah, it just seems like a pieceof shit, just like a bit of a
bad dude.
But but Connor, you couldactually, because for a time
(18:50):
there, Connor's Connor's winningwas exactly what he needed to
propel himself forward.
Yeah, but then it got to a pointwhere it's just started to
undermine his whole fucking youknow existence, and now he's
just a piece of shit.
Yeah.
Whereas you see someone likeKhib, who was so like so staunch
in like so attached to hisculture, so staunch in the
(19:10):
values, right?
Yeah, of being a Muslim, being aDagestani, whatever it was,
right?
All of those things.
Um, you know, the way heretired, the way he conducted
himself.
But so you're like having thathaving that cultural bedrock.
Grounding is it's grounding,exactly, right?
And that's GSP's that guy, LeoMachida's that guy.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Well, exactly.
Well, I was gonna say Charles DeBronx, right?
Like you can look at thesepeople who have achieved the
highest heights, and yeah,there's a degree of self-focus
to achieve it, but it doesn'tmean you have to be a selfish
piece of shit.
Like we can see Charles De Bronxwin or lose.
He's still very respectful ofthe opponent, almost loving.
You know, you see him win orlose.
(19:48):
Like even when he got knockedout, he was like, Oh man, like
good for you, you know.
Like he was, and that guy givesa fuck about his hood.
Like he's yeah, he's from theghetto.
Yeah, and and yes, I think I Ihad GSP here, but I was gonna
say, look at a guy like MohammedAli, right?
He had the philosophy as well asbeing an amazing athlete.
You know, he's Did he?
I'm less familiar.
Well, Mohammed Ali went to jailbecause he said, Well, I'm not
(20:10):
gonna go bomb the Vietnam.
He's like, he said, Viet Congnever called me the N-word.
Yeah, right.
And he literally went to getinscripted and they they
publicized it.
He lost his heavyweight title.
He lost like, I think, like sixyears of his prime to being
locked up.
Yeah, wow, because he wouldn'tgo fight in the Vietnam War.
And, you know, I I wouldactually say, like, George St.
(20:30):
Pierre, the reason why he's sobeloved is he kept that martial
arts.
He was an amazing athlete, youlike one of the most athletic
guys in in that era, but he keptthose principles and he wouldn't
curse and he wouldn't, yeah, hewouldn't be as entertaining as a
Diaz brother.
You know, like he was fuckinghell.
I love that shit.
(20:51):
Yeah, you know, and I look, Ithink Rose Nama Yunus is a
really good example of somebodywho it was so important for her
to be a good person.
Like that was as much as she'swanted to knock you out, like
she just wanted everyone to knowthat it she wanted to be an
example of like principle, yeah,and and and keeping that.
And so in this discussion of Iof martial arts versus sports, I
(21:13):
believe there is like aninterplay, like a strong
interplay that that that thatphilosophy and the people who do
take time to build that are thesupport system, as you say, the
culture, the bedrock, that theseperformances, these high
performers can be built on.
And you can just see it's kindof sad, right?
That a lot of these topperformers, they kind of it is
(21:35):
hollow because they become thechampion and then now what?
Yeah, like it's you know, likethe result is is one percent of
this whole journey.
And if all you're doing is speedreading to read the last line of
the book, then you kind of missthe point.
And and I feel like for the bestpart, um, a lot of folks in
(21:57):
jiu-jitsu are getting distractedby just focusing on the
achievement of the outcomewithout actually cultivating any
philosophy or any understandingthere.
SPEAKER_02 (22:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a cautionary tale
because you like going back,yeah, going specifically into
our world of jujitsu, you it'svery easy to get caught up in
the in what's working.
And then you and then you sortof just start, then you sort of
sacrifice, you're like, no, I'mnot in the philosophical world,
I just want to fucking learn thetechniques that are dominating
(22:28):
right now.
And then before before long,you're like, Well, I've departed
from from maybe the actual thingthat got you into it, or maybe
not, maybe you never got into itfor that.
Um, but then it's like, allright, well, whatever, like once
your competition years are overand stuff like what then?
What do you got?
Yeah, like if it's all aboutthat, you know, and potentially
then it's like, well, that now'syour time to exit.
(22:48):
Yeah, you know, but I think forlike I know for me, right?
The these days I'm like, oh, I'mseeing a role that can be played
within the culture that sitsoutside of just being the
toughest guy in the room.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
And I would actually say there is huge leverage to
the black belt trying to be thetoughest guy in the room.
Well, do what you like.
I mean, don't I I would never Iwould never discourage that, but
I think the problem is somepeople start to feel like they
lose their value because they'renot that guy anymore.
Maybe they were.
Yeah.
But actually the the the hugepoint of contribution is your
(23:19):
ability to help another person,and then that enables them to be
great.
And that that is that isactually, I think, the the great
kind of circle of jujitsu lifeis when you can enable others
and then the culture continues,and that's what we love.
Let's keep it going, folks.
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