May 11, 2025 • 41 mins
Have you ever wondered what it would be like if you took the best traits of the greatest BJJ grapplers (in their prime) ever and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle? Well, now you can wonder no more as we have constructed THE ULTIMATE GRAPPLER. We belkieve this combination of traits would make for the undisputed GOAT. If you have a different set up in mind, or you think ours is a load of malarky, sound off in the comments. We want to hear your fixtures of the greatest grapplers of all time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
A good martial artist does not become tense, but
ready.
Essentially, at this point, thefight is over, so you pretty
much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trustedwith the secret to limitless
power?
I'm ready.
(00:27):
Building the ultimate grappler.
We're talking about taking thegreatest of all time, taking the
best of their games andcombining to make a super human
grappler.
Like when you got figurines andyou're pulling fucking arms off
this, pull the iron arm offthat one, fucking legs off that,
(00:48):
and you're tacking on the shit.
It's like the weapon you love.
Like my son, he's combiningLego with dinosaurs and monster
trucks.
Amazing, and it's a fuckingdinosaur with a monster truck
like lower half Body and thenlike Lego arm and hat Like a
centaur.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, and that's what we needin jujitsu.
Like as if we didn't haveenough freakish bodies with the
(01:12):
drug use, we need to take thedifferent games of the goats the
greatest of all time andcombine them to make a super,
super grappler.
I mean some of these, I'mguessing, maybe not necessarily
the goats, no, no, no, no.
I do have an issue with goatstatus, by the way, because it's
often used as a plural and it'slike well, hang on a second.
How are they the greatest ofall time?
How can you have multiple?
It is difficult to say, becauseI think originally, when the
(01:34):
term came out, there had to beone yeah, but then because of,
of course, but then also, Ithink, generational who, like,
if we go to yeah, but then it'sgreatest of that time?
Yeah, you could say that, butthen someone could just be Not
to pick up on the fucking syntax, you can't see using it.
Not to get grammaticallycorrect because we're straying,
(01:57):
but no, it's more that if you'reof a generation like, whether
it be basketball or football oreven MMA, there's plenty of
people who go.
No pride.
Pride is the epitome of whatfighting was right, especially
when you see those soccer kicksyou're just seeing Vanderlei
Silver stomping on the head ofsomeone You're like oh my God,
it's different level.
(02:18):
I'm going to gocross-generational.
I have some picks.
They're not necessarily theGOAT, but putting the elements
of these people's games together, I believe, will create the
ultimate grappler.
All right, so I'm going to playthe role of I'm hearing this
for the first time and then I'mgoing to be adding my two cents
and perhaps critiquing whereneeded.
Sure, please push back.
(02:39):
I think we cannot deny, andthere's a context, right,
because all certain grapplershave a time period where they're
untouchable and then maybe theygo past their prime Same with
great fighters.
So you pick them from an era.
A lot of people what we'resaying here is a lot of people
listening are not going to befamiliar maybe with some of it,
(03:01):
and we'll do our best to explainwhy that pick.
And perhaps for you listening,if you're not familiar with the
person or the characteristicwe're referring to, you can go
and watch some shit on YouTube,search that match Fucking.
Do your own research, oh,imagine, yeah, and then see how
you choose to invest.
You know, I'm thinking back tolike maybe three, four years ago
(03:23):
when flow grappling really tookoff with like maybe it was five
years ago with content creationaround jujitsu yeah, really
driving it.
If you had started jujitsu atthat time, like certain people
we know, basically all of theelite grapplers that they knew
existed was like Gordon Ryan,nikki Ryan, nikki Rod, craig
Jones and John Danaher, whoeverthey were pushing, and it was
(03:44):
like, yeah, that's it.
And it's like nah, bro, there'sa whole fucking generations of
motherfuckers.
Yeah, definitely.
So I'm going to start first ofall with movement, because I
believe the way a grappler moves, their ability to just move
freely and with fucking recklessabandon and get good outcomes,
is key.
There's many great movers outthere, but for me, the epitome
(04:07):
of movement I'm going to say2014 to 2019 Gary Tonin.
Oh, strong pick, gary Tonin,fuck.
Honestly, I've never grappledwith him.
I met him one time in person,two times actually.
But to see him in the flesh doa flying scissors takedown to
heel hook, like that, it's likebeing at a dunk contest.
(04:28):
You did that on Najmi, didn'tyou?
Yeah, najmi, it's amazing.
Prior to the Micah Galvao J-Rodera, gary Tonin is the most
exciting grappler to have everwalked the planet, in my view.
Well, to give you a highlightof this, because gary's always
been great with leg locks, theyput him on polaris against
(04:49):
rusamir toquinho.
Polaris, yeah, oh my god.
And he almost heel hooks.
Polaris, yeah, he's all overhim, bro.
He, I mean, he gets slammed onthe ground, he gets, he gets, he
gets bit beat up, but he takesFlaherty's back Like bro.
The weight difference PaulHarris, it's Paul Harris.
You made Paul Harris Toquinhomeaning stump, and at that time
(05:13):
that guy was one of the mostfeared grapplers because he's a
super dirty MMA fighter becausehe would gouge people's eyes and
rip their leg, even thoughthey'd tap.
He got kicked out of the UFC,kicked out of Bellator.
Great leg locks yeah, amazingfor leg locks At a time when
they weren't such a thing Well,it wasn't as popular and he was
really leading the way.
(05:34):
And Gary did amazing shit.
He beat um Doreen Yo Burns youknow Gilbert Burns when he was
very, very high level in hisgrappling.
He had a really good run at thewas it the 2020 or the 2022 ADCC
2019.
2019.
He won match of the year withCanuto.
(05:57):
Yeah, he out wrestled the fuckout of Canuto.
Yeah, it was some of the bestwrestling I've ever seen.
It was ridiculous.
Was that the one where he endedup facing off against Gordon
Ryan in the absolute?
Yeah, it was some of the bestwrestling I've ever seen.
It was ridiculous.
Was that the one where he endedup facing off against Gordon
Ryan in the absolute?
Yeah, and then Gordon just Bigbrother choked him, yeah, choked
him out.
But I mean, that's the thing youcan't imagine is he's also just
doesn't care.
You can't take my back tape,he's so it's the creating of
(06:20):
opportunities in how hescrambles.
Yeah, that he just doesn't givea fuck, he just exposes himself
constantly.
Yeah, there's no static moment.
And I think the thing is.
The disappointing thing is hismove to MMA meant his grappling
kind of went down, which is aclassic thing Jiu Jitsu.
Folks go to a striking art,something like that, and then
they're not focusing solely ontheir grappling and maybe they
(06:43):
don't do as well at MMA.
I mean, he did quite well inone championship he beat a bunch
of dudes, but it was kind ofthe decline of his career.
He got doused by Cade, didn'the?
Or Ty, one of them doused him,I can't remember and it was like
, oh yeah, and I mean, look, theRotolo brothers are amazing for
movement as well, right, butyeah, gary Tonin of that era
(07:04):
2014 to 2019, I believe if youcould get a grappler with that
kind of movement, regardless ofweight class, elite.
He put it on Dylan.
Danis Wasn't able to finish him, right, yeah, but people forget
that Danis is also a worldchampion and he's significantly
bigger than Gary.
Yeah, like he's a big frame cat.
So you don't push back on that,joe.
(07:27):
No, I'm, I'm solid.
Hard to fight on tonin, allright, so I'm gonna go with.
Maybe this is an oldergenerational pick, but at the
time I heard the most elitegrapplers speak with great
reverence.
So I had my own bias because Isaw him in person, because I was
like amazed.
When you see it live, you'relike that's fucking unbelievable
.
And then when you hear someonelike a Andre Galvan or a Boucher
(07:52):
or Bernardo Faria speak withwide eyed enthusiasm about a
person, you're like wow, thisguy must be the guy.
Adolfo Vieira, takedown andpassing game, almost unmatched,
I mean, in the Gi.
I would say his era is kind of2010 to 2014, 2015 amazing.
(08:19):
And he started his career asthe black belt hunter because he
was a brown belt smoking blackbelts, but I witnessed him in
person.
He started his career as theblack belt hunter because he was
a brown belt smoking blackbelts, but I witnessed him in
person just destroy at theBrasileiro and it was crazy to
watch Because you know howoftentimes someone or a
competitor will be in a badsituation.
They go out of bounds and whenthey reset they put themselves
(08:41):
in a better situation.
Yeah, and the ref's like no, no, no, you were in a no, go back
to the bad situation.
No, no, no.
I was like this Hedolfo wouldwillingly kind of go.
Yeah, you just put me whereverman and he would just fucking
beast out of it.
Wow, hedolfo Vieira, histakedown and gripping game.
(09:08):
I heard Andre Galvan, marcusBuscesa and also Bernardo Freya
say that Rodolfo had thestrongest grips ever.
You could not break his grips.
If he got them, oh, wow.
So if he grabbed the gi, you'rekind of fucked.
Now.
Ultimately he did lose toBuscesa and Buscesa kind of came
through as the ascending forcethereafter.
But even in Nogi, like it tookhim a little while, but he did
(09:29):
end up winning the ADCC.
Rodolfo Vieira he, he wasn't asgood in Nogi, even though he
was very good yeah, very nice.
And unfortunately, anothergrappler who has gone to MMA and
subsequently it's you know,it's it's the end of their great
grappling career.
It's where great grapplers goto die, in a way, like go to get
(09:49):
some money and it's over.
But I feel like that era Likewhen Messi went to America to
play football, well, to own halfthe league, yeah, sure, like
there's a point at which youstop being an athlete and you're
a business person but yeah, Ibelieve Adolfo Vieira's takedown
and passing of that era, thekind of 2009 to 2015, is like
even the greatest grapplers ofall time will say that he is
(10:11):
just unstoppable force.
Yeah, I'll look, I I'll go withyou on that.
I, um, I didn't.
I never watched, I wasn't, Ididn't spectate in those days.
But I am somewhat familiar withadolfo, his physique.
I mean, he was on probably asmuch drugs as anyone.
It was he's jacked.
His physique is crazy.
(10:32):
I still remember a classic videoof him.
You know you get those videosof when people go on a roller
coaster, yeah, and it's, youknow, the camera's like in your
face, yeah, and it's him andbruno malficini.
Oh, okay, they're on a rollercoaster together or some fucking
hectic ride at an amusementpark and hadolfo's obviously
huge and looks like a fuckingmonster, yeah, and then
(10:53):
malfacini's like small and bigsmile and stuff, and they and
and hadolfo is just likeshitting himself in this and
malfa's just smiling, it's, it'sa real funny clip.
Yeah, malfa's a beast andthey're such good friends.
Actually, it's really uh, it's,it's interesting.
But uh, I mean there's been manygreat passes, uh, in the game
(11:15):
of jujitsu gi and no gi, right,yeah, and there's plenty of
people who would probably pushback on on the choice, but what
I'm talking about is thedominance in their prime.
I'm not saying he was thegreatest of all time, because
there was a time period where hewasn't, yeah right, but when he
was the best three, four timeworld champion, absolute
champion, untouchable.
(11:35):
Like everybody was scared likewho's gonna?
Who's coming second today tothat guy?
Yeah, so if you could take agrappler and just give them that
prime, fuck.
It's pretty, pretty frighteningwhat you got.
Oh, now something slightlydifferent.
No, and this is a guy, it's apopular vote Can't lose with
this one.
The back taking and finishingability of Marcelo Garcia, oh,
(11:58):
wow, we're talking rear naked,choke or guillotine?
Yeah, like rear naked, choke orguillotine.
Yeah, like choke related gi orno gi.
Yeah, marcello's ability totake your back and choke.
You's unmatched.
Second to nine for like 10years, from I'm talking like
from early 2000s through to likewhen he retired, like 2014,
2015.
Like the guy is just people callhim the goat because he just he
(12:23):
won the adcc, absolute, youknow, as a, as a kind of 77, 80
kilo man, you know, yeah, and Ithink he's beloved, but people
don't realize how viciousmarcello garcia is, like the
thing that I, if he was oh,marcello's so nice I trained
with his training partners andthey all, like they all speak
(12:45):
with great reverence, they'reall like, yeah, he's the man,
but like, fuck, it was soterrible to roll with him.
Oh, wow, he just goes a hundredpercent.
He just beats fuck out of you.
Like now, maybe you know,obviously we change over time
and maybe we all know marcelo isthe kind of older, you know the
man, but now he's like you know, he's so chill and oh, he's so
friendly, comes across like anice guy.
Yeah, no, I would say thatMarcelo Garcia in his formative
(13:09):
years, like kind of you know thepurple, brown, black and him
coming out at being trying toestablish himself as that legend
, he was a vicious man.
Wow, and all the guys thattrain who were the lower belts
below him kind of hated trainingwith him because he would just
beat the fuck out of them.
I kind of like and respect thatelement.
(13:30):
And when you see the way hefinishes, like he chokes out in
his ADCC debut where he won andhe beat Henzo and he beat Vito
Shaolin, he chokes Shaolin outin a savage, savage way.
There was some kind of problemgoing on there.
It's kind of like a side nakedchoke, it's not like doesn't get
(13:50):
all, and he sleeps him hard.
Yeah, wow, it's really, it'sfull on.
And I think that when you addin his guillotine game, it's
pretty remarkable His ability tofinish matches.
Marcelo, marcelo, marcelo GarciaI mean obviously ex-guard
there's that I didn't want totalk about him in the context of
(14:11):
guard.
I want to talk about Marcelo inhis ability to finish Because
he choked Shanji as well, did he?
Yeah, he got Shanji's back andchoked him.
Yeah, wow.
And that's when Shanji was alsoin his prime In a no-game match
, in an ADCC super fight.
Yeah, right, yeah, fuck Shungis.
I mean, I don't think manypeople have beat Shungi right,
like by submission no, very,very few.
And so that's what I love abouta grappler is their ability to
(14:34):
fucking go for the kill.
And don't get me wrong, there'splenty value in people winning
on points, because that's partof the game too.
Now, give me who's the intent,who's someone from the modern
era that listens again and belike how can you be overlooking
fucking this guy for taking theback and choking who do you
think You've got to say likeGordon Ryan, he finishes from
(14:59):
the back pretty much better thanlike that's the majority of
Gordon Ryan's finishes, otherthan maybe a leg lock.
It's take the back and stranglesomebody.
The way he fucking finishedGalvan in the super fight was
just like so masterful, soclinical, yeah, and I mean he
just did it to everybody man,yeah, like anyone and everyone.
That's.
That is possibly.
(15:20):
And you know the reason why Ididn't want to choose Galvan
Gordon within.
This is an easy pick.
There's nothing for you guys tolearn.
No, you get nothing from that,because you're already saying,
you're probably already sayingin your mind, well, why would
you match up this composite guyagainst Gordon?
And so let's see what happens.
Right, because he's got.
But I feel like there are sometraits that really helped Gordon
(15:41):
be as great as he is yeah,which we can get to later when
we get to some of those otherqualities.
But, but, yeah, no, fair point.
And I think, if we're talkingfront front choking, like, yeah,
you'd have to take a CadeRotolo, das, the DAS, yeah, no,
no, no, I've got.
I think that Is that a separatethe Rotolos?
(16:03):
Yeah, and I think you have tohave a certain forearm length
not only long arms, but forearmspecifically to be able to do
that, and they have that.
I mean as much as they havetheir elite skills and amazing
cardio and everything that makesthem great.
That forearm length thing is ahuge piece within being able to
just darts people from anywhere,yeah, and so that's for me.
(16:28):
Me, it's a little traitdependent and that's why I kind
of go, ah, you know, like Idon't, I don't like to lean on
something that's too traitdependent.
A gift from deus, yeah, fromthe gods, like in the same way,
like if somebody's like crazyflexible, maybe they worked on
it, maybe they didn't like, butsomeone who's just super rubber,
like people might be, oh, butwhat about Eddie Bravo's like
(16:50):
rubber guard, cause that changedgrappling of its time.
Like if you can make someonesuper flexible, but it's like I
don't want to lean on that tohim.
I want to go more to skill,yeah, particular skill, even
though the DAS is a skill, don'tget me wrong.
I would say that the Rotolo'sability to finish with a DAS is
like pretty unmatched.
Yes, from that front headlockattack.
(17:11):
Who you got?
Oh, I'm going to go old school,let's throw it back.
I'm going to OG.
Which quality are we talking?
We're going to talk submissionrate.
Submission rate Like highestsubmission finish in the history
of the game, wow, okay.
Who am I talking about now?
I'm going game, wow, okay, whoam I talking about now?
(17:32):
I'm gonna talk about leg locks.
Who has the highest percentagefinish rate in the history of
jujitsu?
Minari matches to no masato ofa regga rock.
Uh, yes, no, no, no.
I.
Much respect to iminari.
I love him.
Um, we're talking dean lister.
Motherfuckers, why would youignore 50% of white grapplers?
He's a mutant.
He's a mutant.
I met him, mike.
(17:52):
He's out of his prime but he'sI met him too.
He's a fucking lovely guy.
He's lovely, fucking lovely guy.
He's such a lovely guy.
Yeah, interesting, realcharacter of a One of the
eccentrics of jiu-jitsu, youknow.
But I think his percentage ratefinish is 90, is 89%.
It's something crazy that inlike I think it's like 26 ADCC
(18:17):
matches, he has like 24 or 23heel hook finishes.
Specifically Like when and nowI'll speak with some inside
information here when locky andcraig were like how do we beat
these top level brazilians, leglocks, who did they?
(18:38):
Look to dean fucking lister.
Now, obviously their executionwas different.
They didn't necessarily do itthe way dean did it, because he
was doing it in a time when backin 2001 you know this is it
wasn't the flavor of that time,but he also wrestled Like it
wasn't that he was an MMAfighter, he wasn't that.
He was just like this poolguard kind of guy.
He did a bunch.
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We'll see you on the inside.
But if we're looking at the mostsuccessful leg locker in terms
of the amount of times hefinished people with heel hooks,
(19:43):
it's Dean Lister.
Yeah, wow, you take that primeDean Lister heel hook game.
Yeah, he just fucked everyoneup, including Adolfo Vieira
Lister.
Yeah, Wow, you take that primeDean Lister heel hook game.
Yeah, he just fucked everyoneup, including Adolfo Vieira.
He actually he.
He submitted so many top levelguys.
It's a classic image of himhitting the an outside.
Maybe I think it's like a kneebar heel hook on him.
Yeah, it's kind of side kneebar with the twist.
It's brutal, yeah, immaculate.
(20:11):
Yeah, and so it's I, eventhough a lot of people know
locky for leg locks and likecraig and like even um eddie
wolverine as really pioneering,like inside hill hooks in dds
and all of that, yeah, the guywho really pushed it hardest
early, dean lister well, yeah,and he was, I mean, danaher kind
of quoted.
That Lister was his sort ofinspiration, wasn't he?
Yeah, in a lot of ways.
(20:31):
And so I think that if you guyshave never really seen those
matches, all you have to do isjust go YouTube.
There's a lot of highlightvideos which I haven't seen a
lot.
Dean Lister's kind of probablysort of just pre-my taking an
interest in watching.
It's probably two or threegenerations before we even
started doing jiu-jitsu, but youalso got to um.
(20:53):
It's also at a time when there'sjust much less content around
it, right, yeah, so you'relooking at like adcc highlight
clips and the footage looksjanky.
It looks like kind of handheldshit, but it's the.
It's odd because like they comeout in like mismatched, like
they're not wearing the slickgear that they wear now.
No, you remember I was justthinking, when you said Marcelo
Garcia when he fought RicoRodriguez, yes, and Rodriguez
(21:15):
walks out in basketball shortsfrom Charlotte Hornets and just
cut off sleeves, yeah, andyou're like this doesn't look
professional.
Marcelo has blue shorts and ablack long-sleeved rashie, but
then the Marcelocia like it'speeling off of it because you
only got one right, becauseyou're like what's a lot of
money to get a rash?
No, but it's just like thequality of, yeah, it wasn't.
(21:37):
Like it's not like vhts fucking, like the two-tone gradient.
No, the level of professionalthe grappling was, but the
professionalism was far lower.
Yeah, and when you go back andyou watch Dean Lister, just put
Dean Lister heel hook highlightyou'll be like holy shit, this
guy just wrecked everyone and itwas.
(22:01):
People might say it's lesscompetitive, but I believe he
was just way more effective atgoing to the leg and doing the
thing.
I mean, of course it's lesscompetitive right at an earlier
stage because the game is lessevolved and there's less people
in it, sure, but I don't thinkthat detracts in any way from
the impact one athlete was ableto have, because it's still just
(22:22):
a collection of like five toten hardcore cunts that are the
best in the world and beatingthe shit out of each other.
Yeah, and that never changeslike what they're five to 10
hardcore cunts that are the bestin the world Beating the shit
out of each other.
Yeah, so, and that, and thatnever changes like what they're
doing and how that and how manypeople there are preceding them.
That changes, but the actual atthat top level, it's always
fucking savagery.
Yeah, and the thing that peopleunderestimate is like if you
didn't, if you didn't have DeanLister, you wouldn't have craig
(22:51):
and lockie and and and a lot ofthese other guys subsequently in
the form they've taken, yeah,so I think you can take a lot of
um, if you understand thesethings, it puts a much better
understanding on the modern game.
Yep, and so we're building theultimate modern grappler.
Now this the next one I'm goingto go to.
This is my final one, but you,you feel where you're going.
(23:11):
This because I want to justtalk about the guard, guard gi
or no game, because for a longtime people hung shit on pulling
guard, playing guard, like it,which it's kind of like that's
not practical to fighting,that's not heterocentral.
Uh, you know, people call itbesmirch, the idea of a guard,
(23:33):
right, when, for the best part,besmirching motherfuckers how
dare you, for cinerousactivities, besmirched me.
This count, um.
But think this this gentleman isa four-time adcc, two-time or
three-time super fight champion,four-time world gi champion.
No gi champion, like prettymuch won as much as any person
(23:56):
can win across all spheres andhas beaten all of the best, as
in beat Jacare, beat Galvan youname anyone, he's pretty much
beat them.
I think the only person hehadn't beaten in a competition
is maybe hodja.
Right, he's just beaten everyone of your favorite grapplers.
(24:16):
He beat them.
We're talking bralio esteem, amotherfucker.
Oh, wow.
Now you might look at this andsay, oh, maybe it's trait
dependent because you've gotvery long, but this is a guy who
, you can see, has had a hugeinfluence on any guard player,
gi or no Gi.
This isn't just like, oh, hewas a Gi guy.
No, one of the most famousphotos I remember is him doing a
(24:41):
reverse triangle on AndreGalvan on the front of Gracie
Mag and Andre Galvan being likeoh my God, fuck.
And the moment where he taps.
And Andre Govan being like ohmy God, fuck.
And the moment where he taps.
And he's like oh my God, and.
And.
And Craig actually borrowed abit from um, his triangle game,
from, uh, brawley, esteema, okay, and, and, and the amazing
thing, I've been very fortunateto have met Brawley a bunch of
(25:05):
times.
Guy, he's always down to party,you know, and, and anyone I
speak to is like, yeah, man,brother, he likes to party, he's
always up for a good time, buthis jujitsu is so fucking legit
and this is something that it'skind of an older era that people
wouldn't necessarily think ofhim when it comes to guard they
might think of like the meowbrothers, or they might think of
(25:26):
the Mendez Brothers, aoj, youknow, they might think about
Cabrinha or like any of theseguys who are great in Gi and no
Gi, who have these guards whichare just.
Even a guy like KeenanCornelius, who invented
Wormguard and was great Gi or noGi, like Braulio Stima is one
of the most achieved guardplayers, as you would call them,
(25:48):
and the list of people he'ssubmitted is pretty hard to deny
.
Would you say, what about aHodger Gracie as a guard
contender People?
Yes, but the reason why I wouldchoose Braulio is because his
(26:09):
guard is more open, right,hodger is famous for closed
guard.
Yeah, he just gets closed guard.
He geese sweep, he get you, buthe's a fucking giant, you know
he's 6'5" whatever.
The broadest shoulders, thelongest legs.
I mean, don't get me wrong,braulio Steamer's not a small
guy.
I think he's 6'2", could beedging up on 6'3".
(26:29):
He's kind of like a lean, longguy, yeah, but the sheer size of
Hodger is very overwhelming.
I always find that I'm alwayslike he's like a big
motherfucker.
And don't get me wrong, youwould say Hodger has the most
famous closed guard.
The reason why I find BrawleyOsteema more interesting and why
(26:51):
I think he's a I wouldn't saybetter, but I like his guard
game better is because it's giand no gi.
It's inverting, it's fuckingtriangles, it's taking the back,
it's leg locks, it's youfucking name it.
I think he has one of thequickest submissions ever, which
you may or may not have seen,which is kind of from spider
guard.
I think he has one of thequickest submissions ever which
you may or may not have seen,which is kind of from spider
(27:12):
guard, and he like spins underto like a straight knee bar.
He does it at worlds.
It's very famous actually,cause he's just like knee bar
and it's like Looks like 15seconds.
Wow, I was like what the fuckdid he just do?
There's some black magic rightthere, that's dark and you're
like, wow, he just pulls it out.
So I have put this listtogether because these are not
necessarily the most obviousfamous people, but if you
(27:37):
combine all these elements, youare going to create the greatest
grappler of all time.
Give me your pick for armbar.
Who are you going with?
Huffer Mendes, huffer Mendes,huffer Mendes has the greatest
straight armbar of all time.
There's no, he's Michael Galvan.
For me, he just Okay, fuckingentry on those things.
Michael Galvan's amazing, right, but I just Huffer Mendes can
(28:01):
just Google them side by side.
I think it's a little bit unfairbecause Mikkel Galvaum is so
early right and you know, mendesis Hafa.
Mendes has pretty much finishedhis career, done, yeah, yeah.
So we haven't seen the best ofMikkel Galvaum.
I don't think I've seen enough.
No, no, no, no, no.
(28:23):
You just have to just put in.
Just, let's just trust theinternet, let's just trust the
algorithm.
Don't trust the algorithm, butjust search like hafa mendez,
armbars.
How many people is that guystraight armbarred?
It is insane.
What about, um?
Who we going with for mentalgame?
Oh, wow, so you know.
(28:43):
So what you know of, I mean,and we don't have an insight to
all the athletes on this front.
I'll tell you who I fucking gotfor mental game.
Okay, hicks and Gracie, oh wow,okay, just the fucking, the
toughness and the confidence ofthat.
Motherfucker, I'm going, I'mimplanting that into this
fucking super soldier.
Oh wow, oh, motherfucker, I'mgoing, I'm, I'm implanting that
(29:07):
into this fucking super soldier.
Oh wow, I oh wow.
This is really based on, youknow, the seeing choke.
If you haven't seen, who do youadmire?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also, you know, you get abit of an insight into him as a,
as a guy.
The psychology of hicks andgracie is is impeccable because
he was also, he was just doingas much no rules, no holds
barred, fighting like stomping,punching the back of the head,
shit as much as he was doingKijijutsu.
(29:29):
So this is why Hickson is sorevered.
He was doing that shit, um, inthe eighties, before other
people were even aware of it,before the UFC Mental game.
Fuck, psychology here's.
This is going to sound funny.
I'm going to go with, like that, my opinion, and I I say this
(29:49):
with the utmost respect theidiot savant of sports
psychology.
I'm going to talk about jacaresoza, the alligator.
That guy just does give no fucks.
He comes in so hard, so, sofast.
He really doesn't care who's infront of him.
I'm fucking you up.
His whole mental game is I'mfucking you up, and it is
(30:10):
relentless.
And he talks about not havingthe money to catch the bus home
and he's like therefore, I mustwin the absolute.
I'll have no food and no way toget home.
Therefore, I must win that I'llhave no food and no way to get
home.
Therefore, I must win.
That attitude is just, you knowthose guys from Manaus, like you
know Jose Aldo and like anyonewho's from those, and Mika
(30:32):
Govans from up there, the MilkyBoys, right, like, if you're
from a poor place and you haveno other chance, you're like
this has to work.
I refuse to lose.
Yeah, and it it's notcomplicated, it's not spiritual,
it's not philosophical, it'sjust fuck you, I win today.
And it's just unshakable and I,I've always found that really
(30:54):
like, oh, like.
You see a guy that big do aflying triangle or flying armbar
, and the ferocity that, theintensity, I love intensity, and
so, when it comes to likepsychology, I, I, that's what I
love about him.
Jackarazian man, yeah, we think.
Is there any?
Are there any qualities or, youknow, aspects of the game we've
(31:15):
missed.
We kind of had wrestlingcovered with tonin and hadolfo
in terms of takedowns and thentakedowns and pass, and then
maybe you could say just someonewho like, if we encapsulate it
all, someone who's likeentertaining, like somebody
who's like a bit of a, a showman, like maybe that, that element
of grappling because not allgrapplers have that Like, give
(31:36):
him the fucking Craig Jones.
No, actually, if you watchCraig grapple, it's not super,
it's not highlight material.
No, but it's all the shit.
It's all the shit around.
No, no, no.
I'm talking more.
I'm talking more like no, no,no, no, no.
This is not what I'm referring.
I'm talking to like the Xfactor, the excitement, similar
to Tony, like someone who'sgoing to do a flying triangle,
yeah, someone who's just goingDo something where you're like,
(32:04):
oh my God, what the hell?
Something spectacular.
Is there a spectacular grapplerthat you like Joe?
Well, I couldn't.
I mean Tonin would be my firstpick, right, if I were to look
beyond that, fuck.
Who do I find really exciting?
Fabrizio Andres, you know,fabrizio, yeah, but I'm actually
going to say like Canuto, yeah,canuto's fucking exciting Flips
.
Who's the other guy that alwayscomes out?
(32:26):
He's got that real dark energyabout him, fucking like Central
American, american kind of vibe.
You know the fucking dude, he'sthat Andy Varela.
Andy Varela, he's got that andI apologize if I misplaced his
origins there or his family, buthim and Canuto to me come out
(32:47):
and they're like I'm fuckingputting on a show for cunts.
Yes, and Varela has aparticular nastiness.
It comes across that there arebad intentions, yeah, and I mean
that's exciting as a fan andI've never met Andy, so I don't
no, but he grapples like a cunt,he goes hard, yeah, yeah, he's
got that Shinya Aoki vibe to him.
I was going to say Shinya is apotential.
(33:08):
If we're talking showmanship,right, yep, yep, I would say
that.
I mean, could we?
We're talking Shinya like 2010s?
Yes, it's hard for me because,like my favorite, most
spectacular like, when I thinkof showmanship, it often goes to
MMA, not jujitsu.
There's not many people whobring that element of of of.
(33:32):
Not only am I here to grapple,I'm here to entertain the fans.
Like, are you not entertained?
And I think, when we thinkabout the most recent best match
of all time being, um, you know, tackett versus rotolo, oh yeah
, that, uh, that element ofentertainment, like getting a
(33:55):
position, being like yeah, yeah,like, come on, you know like
the crowd gets excited for it.
I actually am going to sayLeandro Lowe.
Leandro Lowe has the ability,he's clutch, he could be down on
points.
He's going to take the back andchoke the guy.
He could be down on points andpull out the takedown against a
bigger, stronger opponent heseems unlikely to look at and
(34:22):
then he just does thespectacular, he commits all and
makes it happen.
And for me you know, you seehim get the takedown he's just
like, yeah, like you fuckingknow, it Drives on the crowd,
yeah, and you feel the crowd,the interaction between the
crowd and the grappler.
I think that's also part of thereason why he was so beloved.
(34:44):
Rest in peace.
And that's, you know, part ofthe thing I admire about him,
because I don't think of him asan athlete in the same way.
I think of a Adolfo or kind ofseems like, kind of average,
like a little bit lumped andbumped, like a bit injured, and
he would just make it fuckinghappen.
(35:06):
And people thrived off theelectricity of his ability to
make it happen.
Who would your pick be for thequality of never tapping the
cunt that just lets like, justgo for it.
Bro Frank Conant, I'm nottapping Wow.
Well, there's some pretty Likeand we could say this is like
(35:27):
the near impossibility to submit.
Oh God, I mean, there's so manyexamples of people just eating
it and then getting out.
I'm going to say VinnieMargulies, based on the Craig
Jones fight, no, well, he foughtthe heavyweight final against
(35:49):
Fabricio Verdum and Verdum hadhim in the deepest armbar.
He fucking got out.
Like it's unbelievable howelastic that man is for being a
big heavyweight guy.
But there's many examples.
I mean, elastic implies that notendons were broken.
Well, no, they definitely.
Well, I think, actually thebones broke with the Craig match
(36:13):
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it broke histip-fib like a spiral fracture,
more than he tore ligaments.
There's so many matches he toreligaments.
There's so many matches Likeyou think about when Gary Tonin
was getting armbarred byHickson's son, cron, cron,
gracie, that's ridiculous.
(36:35):
Him getting out of that armbaris crazy.
I'm having a hard time recall.
I remember they fought.
Yeah, I mean, that was Cronreally doing great.
We're talking about, about, I'mthinking fucking craig jones,
gordon ryan.
That was fucking deep, that wassuper deep, and and and and
gordon did complain about howsore his elbow was I?
I think for me it has to be,and I don't.
I never remember which one is,but meow brothers, which one?
(36:56):
Is it paulo or joel?
Yeah, it would be paulo, again,with tie, tie breaking his leg,
yeah, and the knee.
Then that shot of the, the, the, the reverse, you bend on the
knee, the knee for those whohaven't seen it, it's just full
hyper extension.
You can actually see where thejoint knee joint is kind of
dislocated and ty is just likecranking, giving it everything.
(37:20):
And is it it Paulo or Joao?
I'm confident it's Paulo meow.
Okay, just poker face.
Yeah, just nothing, just like.
Looking for the back yeah, justhow do I take the back from you?
Next position, yeah, oh man,yeah, you're probably right.
Actually, I will say, like asmuch as Vinny probably is more
(37:45):
famous in some of his escapes Iknow this firsthand a friend of
ours and sponsored Bulletproofathlete, fabio Colloi Fabinho,
from Alliance.
He said that he had Paula Meowsin a toe hold and touched his
big toe to the back of his calf,like snapped his ankle, wow,
completely.
Like felt the ankle go andfolded the ankle Wow, like that
(38:09):
Didn't tap, got his back taken.
He was like he's got a tap.
No, wow, break my shit, I'mstill going to take your back,
I'm still going to get out ofthis.
Wow, their willingness to takedamage is pretty unparalleled.
Yeah, take your back, I'm stillgoing to get out of this.
Their willingness to takedamage is pretty unparalleled.
Yeah, it's kind of psychotic.
Yeah, um, that's the qualitythat we're looking for in the
greatest.
You want to be the nextbulletproof sponsor because
(38:31):
we've got we've got a lot ofwork to do to look after those
bodies.
But I mean, obviously there's somany great grapplers jiu-jitsu
is so big so many people didn'tget a mention.
Of course, that's right.
Some of the you guys listeningare going to have some you know
some up in arms.
I'm sure how the fuck didso-and-so not get a mention?
How come you didn't mention?
And I think it's because andyou're right in saying this, joe
(38:56):
because of flow grappling, it'son one FC.
You know there is so much mediaaround jujitsu.
People will have tuned into aparticular event and be like,
how come he didn't mention thismatch with this grappler?
Yeah, what about Nikki Robb?
Yeah, how about like fuckingAdele?
Yeah, man, her finishing rate,right.
(39:18):
I guess the reason why I saythis is for the newer generation
of grappling, of grapplers andgrappling.
We haven't seen it completelyreach its fruition.
Like these, grapplers are stillyoung.
The greatest matches they'reever going to have are coming.
Wait, fruition implies thatthere's an end point, does it
not?
Well, yeah, an end point whenyou fucking retire?
(39:39):
Yeah, there are ways off, but Ithink, but the evolution is
just forever, no, no, yeah, anend point when you fucking
retire?
Yeah, but there are ways off,but I think, but the evolution
is just forever.
No, no, no, no.
But I'm saying that I'm talkingabout individual grapplers in
their fucking prime.
Yeah, our modern day guys,whoever's, like J-Rod, whoever
you mentioned, they are notprime yet.
They are, they're just hittingtheir strap.
(40:01):
Yeah, like, the next five yearsis prime time for this
generation of grapplers.
Yeah, the, the, the Rotolos, orall of that generation, the
Tacketts, uh, levi, all theseguys like, it's prime time now.
So we will see the greatestmatches of all time in the next
couple of years.
I it's.
We only have seen glimpses ofthat so far which was, you know,
(40:23):
possibly you know, uh Cadeversus um Tackett as the
greatest match of the, the, thecommon modern era of grappling.
So we have to revisit theconversation later.
I feel I just want to use it.
In five years, I wanted Iwanted to like use this to shine
a light on some folks thatmaybe aren't being talked about
as well.
Yeah, that's right.
(40:44):
Hopefully this puts a spike inthe YouTube fucking search
results for probably our steamer.
But yeah, we're just fuckingaround, it's good, it's good fun
.
Fuck, yeah, there it is, but weobviously know that you will
have a different opinion Soundout in the comments.
We do like to see it because itsparks conversation and, yeah,
please feel free to referencefamous matches that we did not
(41:05):
touch on.
We appreciate it.
A good martial artist does not become tense, but
ready.
Essentially, at this point, thefight is over, so you pretty
much flow with the goal.
Who is worthy to be trustedwith the secret to limitless
power?
I'm ready.
(00:27):
Building the ultimate grappler.
We're talking about taking thegreatest of all time, taking the
best of their games andcombining to make a super human
grappler.
Like when you got figurines andyou're pulling fucking arms off
this, pull the iron arm offthat one, fucking legs off that,
(00:48):
and you're tacking on the shit.
It's like the weapon you love.
Like my son, he's combiningLego with dinosaurs and monster
trucks.
Amazing, and it's a fuckingdinosaur with a monster truck
like lower half Body and thenlike Lego arm and hat Like a
centaur.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, and that's what we needin jujitsu.
Like as if we didn't haveenough freakish bodies with the
(01:12):
drug use, we need to take thedifferent games of the goats the
greatest of all time andcombine them to make a super,
super grappler.
I mean some of these, I'mguessing, maybe not necessarily
the goats, no, no, no, no.
I do have an issue with goatstatus, by the way, because it's
often used as a plural and it'slike well, hang on a second.
How are they the greatest ofall time?
How can you have multiple?
It is difficult to say, becauseI think originally, when the
(01:34):
term came out, there had to beone yeah, but then because of,
of course, but then also, Ithink, generational who, like,
if we go to yeah, but then it'sgreatest of that time?
Yeah, you could say that, butthen someone could just be Not
to pick up on the fucking syntax, you can't see using it.
Not to get grammaticallycorrect because we're straying,
(01:57):
but no, it's more that if you'reof a generation like, whether
it be basketball or football oreven MMA, there's plenty of
people who go.
No pride.
Pride is the epitome of whatfighting was right, especially
when you see those soccer kicksyou're just seeing Vanderlei
Silver stomping on the head ofsomeone You're like oh my God,
it's different level.
(02:18):
I'm going to gocross-generational.
I have some picks.
They're not necessarily theGOAT, but putting the elements
of these people's games together, I believe, will create the
ultimate grappler.
All right, so I'm going to playthe role of I'm hearing this
for the first time and then I'mgoing to be adding my two cents
and perhaps critiquing whereneeded.
Sure, please push back.
(02:39):
I think we cannot deny, andthere's a context, right,
because all certain grapplershave a time period where they're
untouchable and then maybe theygo past their prime Same with
great fighters.
So you pick them from an era.
A lot of people what we'resaying here is a lot of people
listening are not going to befamiliar maybe with some of it,
(03:01):
and we'll do our best to explainwhy that pick.
And perhaps for you listening,if you're not familiar with the
person or the characteristicwe're referring to, you can go
and watch some shit on YouTube,search that match Fucking.
Do your own research, oh,imagine, yeah, and then see how
you choose to invest.
You know, I'm thinking back tolike maybe three, four years ago
(03:23):
when flow grappling really tookoff with like maybe it was five
years ago with content creationaround jujitsu yeah, really
driving it.
If you had started jujitsu atthat time, like certain people
we know, basically all of theelite grapplers that they knew
existed was like Gordon Ryan,nikki Ryan, nikki Rod, craig
Jones and John Danaher, whoeverthey were pushing, and it was
(03:44):
like, yeah, that's it.
And it's like nah, bro, there'sa whole fucking generations of
motherfuckers.
Yeah, definitely.
So I'm going to start first ofall with movement, because I
believe the way a grappler moves, their ability to just move
freely and with fucking recklessabandon and get good outcomes,
is key.
There's many great movers outthere, but for me, the epitome
(04:07):
of movement I'm going to say2014 to 2019 Gary Tonin.
Oh, strong pick, gary Tonin,fuck.
Honestly, I've never grappledwith him.
I met him one time in person,two times actually.
But to see him in the flesh doa flying scissors takedown to
heel hook, like that, it's likebeing at a dunk contest.
(04:28):
You did that on Najmi, didn'tyou?
Yeah, najmi, it's amazing.
Prior to the Micah Galvao J-Rodera, gary Tonin is the most
exciting grappler to have everwalked the planet, in my view.
Well, to give you a highlightof this, because gary's always
been great with leg locks, theyput him on polaris against
(04:49):
rusamir toquinho.
Polaris, yeah, oh my god.
And he almost heel hooks.
Polaris, yeah, he's all overhim, bro.
He, I mean, he gets slammed onthe ground, he gets, he gets, he
gets bit beat up, but he takesFlaherty's back Like bro.
The weight difference PaulHarris, it's Paul Harris.
You made Paul Harris Toquinhomeaning stump, and at that time
(05:13):
that guy was one of the mostfeared grapplers because he's a
super dirty MMA fighter becausehe would gouge people's eyes and
rip their leg, even thoughthey'd tap.
He got kicked out of the UFC,kicked out of Bellator.
Great leg locks yeah, amazingfor leg locks At a time when
they weren't such a thing Well,it wasn't as popular and he was
really leading the way.
(05:34):
And Gary did amazing shit.
He beat um Doreen Yo Burns youknow Gilbert Burns when he was
very, very high level in hisgrappling.
He had a really good run at thewas it the 2020 or the 2022 ADCC
2019.
2019.
He won match of the year withCanuto.
(05:57):
Yeah, he out wrestled the fuckout of Canuto.
Yeah, it was some of the bestwrestling I've ever seen.
It was ridiculous.
Was that the one where he endedup facing off against Gordon
Ryan in the absolute?
Yeah, it was some of the bestwrestling I've ever seen.
It was ridiculous.
Was that the one where he endedup facing off against Gordon
Ryan in the absolute?
Yeah, and then Gordon just Bigbrother choked him, yeah, choked
him out.
But I mean, that's the thing youcan't imagine is he's also just
doesn't care.
You can't take my back tape,he's so it's the creating of
(06:20):
opportunities in how hescrambles.
Yeah, that he just doesn't givea fuck, he just exposes himself
constantly.
Yeah, there's no static moment.
And I think the thing is.
The disappointing thing is hismove to MMA meant his grappling
kind of went down, which is aclassic thing Jiu Jitsu.
Folks go to a striking art,something like that, and then
they're not focusing solely ontheir grappling and maybe they
(06:43):
don't do as well at MMA.
I mean, he did quite well inone championship he beat a bunch
of dudes, but it was kind ofthe decline of his career.
He got doused by Cade, didn'the?
Or Ty, one of them doused him,I can't remember and it was like
, oh yeah, and I mean, look, theRotolo brothers are amazing for
movement as well, right, butyeah, gary Tonin of that era
(07:04):
2014 to 2019, I believe if youcould get a grappler with that
kind of movement, regardless ofweight class, elite.
He put it on Dylan.
Danis Wasn't able to finish him, right, yeah, but people forget
that Danis is also a worldchampion and he's significantly
bigger than Gary.
Yeah, like he's a big frame cat.
So you don't push back on that,joe.
(07:27):
No, I'm, I'm solid.
Hard to fight on tonin, allright, so I'm gonna go with.
Maybe this is an oldergenerational pick, but at the
time I heard the most elitegrapplers speak with great
reverence.
So I had my own bias because Isaw him in person, because I was
like amazed.
When you see it live, you'relike that's fucking unbelievable
.
And then when you hear someonelike a Andre Galvan or a Boucher
(07:52):
or Bernardo Faria speak withwide eyed enthusiasm about a
person, you're like wow, thisguy must be the guy.
Adolfo Vieira, takedown andpassing game, almost unmatched,
I mean, in the Gi.
I would say his era is kind of2010 to 2014, 2015 amazing.
(08:19):
And he started his career asthe black belt hunter because he
was a brown belt smoking blackbelts, but I witnessed him in
person.
He started his career as theblack belt hunter because he was
a brown belt smoking blackbelts, but I witnessed him in
person just destroy at theBrasileiro and it was crazy to
watch Because you know howoftentimes someone or a
competitor will be in a badsituation.
They go out of bounds and whenthey reset they put themselves
(08:41):
in a better situation.
Yeah, and the ref's like no, no, no, you were in a no, go back
to the bad situation.
No, no, no.
I was like this Hedolfo wouldwillingly kind of go.
Yeah, you just put me whereverman and he would just fucking
beast out of it.
Wow, hedolfo Vieira, histakedown and gripping game.
(09:08):
I heard Andre Galvan, marcusBuscesa and also Bernardo Freya
say that Rodolfo had thestrongest grips ever.
You could not break his grips.
If he got them, oh, wow.
So if he grabbed the gi, you'rekind of fucked.
Now.
Ultimately he did lose toBuscesa and Buscesa kind of came
through as the ascending forcethereafter.
But even in Nogi, like it tookhim a little while, but he did
(09:29):
end up winning the ADCC.
Rodolfo Vieira he, he wasn't asgood in Nogi, even though he
was very good yeah, very nice.
And unfortunately, anothergrappler who has gone to MMA and
subsequently it's you know,it's it's the end of their great
grappling career.
It's where great grapplers goto die, in a way, like go to get
(09:49):
some money and it's over.
But I feel like that era Likewhen Messi went to America to
play football, well, to own halfthe league, yeah, sure, like
there's a point at which youstop being an athlete and you're
a business person but yeah, Ibelieve Adolfo Vieira's takedown
and passing of that era, thekind of 2009 to 2015, is like
even the greatest grapplers ofall time will say that he is
(10:11):
just unstoppable force.
Yeah, I'll look, I I'll go withyou on that.
I, um, I didn't.
I never watched, I wasn't, Ididn't spectate in those days.
But I am somewhat familiar withadolfo, his physique.
I mean, he was on probably asmuch drugs as anyone.
It was he's jacked.
His physique is crazy.
(10:32):
I still remember a classic videoof him.
You know you get those videosof when people go on a roller
coaster, yeah, and it's, youknow, the camera's like in your
face, yeah, and it's him andbruno malficini.
Oh, okay, they're on a rollercoaster together or some fucking
hectic ride at an amusementpark and hadolfo's obviously
huge and looks like a fuckingmonster, yeah, and then
(10:53):
malfacini's like small and bigsmile and stuff, and they and
and hadolfo is just likeshitting himself in this and
malfa's just smiling, it's, it'sa real funny clip.
Yeah, malfa's a beast andthey're such good friends.
Actually, it's really uh, it's,it's interesting.
But uh, I mean there's been manygreat passes, uh, in the game
(11:15):
of jujitsu gi and no gi, right,yeah, and there's plenty of
people who would probably pushback on on the choice, but what
I'm talking about is thedominance in their prime.
I'm not saying he was thegreatest of all time, because
there was a time period where hewasn't, yeah right, but when he
was the best three, four timeworld champion, absolute
champion, untouchable.
(11:35):
Like everybody was scared likewho's gonna?
Who's coming second today tothat guy?
Yeah, so if you could take agrappler and just give them that
prime, fuck.
It's pretty, pretty frighteningwhat you got.
Oh, now something slightlydifferent.
No, and this is a guy, it's apopular vote Can't lose with
this one.
The back taking and finishingability of Marcelo Garcia, oh,
(11:58):
wow, we're talking rear naked,choke or guillotine?
Yeah, like rear naked, choke orguillotine.
Yeah, like choke related gi orno gi.
Yeah, marcello's ability totake your back and choke.
You's unmatched.
Second to nine for like 10years, from I'm talking like
from early 2000s through to likewhen he retired, like 2014,
2015.
Like the guy is just people callhim the goat because he just he
(12:23):
won the adcc, absolute, youknow, as a, as a kind of 77, 80
kilo man, you know, yeah, and Ithink he's beloved, but people
don't realize how viciousmarcello garcia is, like the
thing that I, if he was oh,marcello's so nice I trained
with his training partners andthey all, like they all speak
(12:45):
with great reverence, they'reall like, yeah, he's the man,
but like, fuck, it was soterrible to roll with him.
Oh, wow, he just goes a hundredpercent.
He just beats fuck out of you.
Like now, maybe you know,obviously we change over time
and maybe we all know marcelo isthe kind of older, you know the
man, but now he's like you know, he's so chill and oh, he's so
friendly, comes across like anice guy.
Yeah, no, I would say thatMarcelo Garcia in his formative
(13:09):
years, like kind of you know thepurple, brown, black and him
coming out at being trying toestablish himself as that legend
, he was a vicious man.
Wow, and all the guys thattrain who were the lower belts
below him kind of hated trainingwith him because he would just
beat the fuck out of them.
I kind of like and respect thatelement.
(13:30):
And when you see the way hefinishes, like he chokes out in
his ADCC debut where he won andhe beat Henzo and he beat Vito
Shaolin, he chokes Shaolin outin a savage, savage way.
There was some kind of problemgoing on there.
It's kind of like a side nakedchoke, it's not like doesn't get
(13:50):
all, and he sleeps him hard.
Yeah, wow, it's really, it'sfull on.
And I think that when you addin his guillotine game, it's
pretty remarkable His ability tofinish matches.
Marcelo, marcelo, marcelo GarciaI mean obviously ex-guard
there's that I didn't want totalk about him in the context of
(14:11):
guard.
I want to talk about Marcelo inhis ability to finish Because
he choked Shanji as well, did he?
Yeah, he got Shanji's back andchoked him.
Yeah, wow.
And that's when Shanji was alsoin his prime In a no-game match
, in an ADCC super fight.
Yeah, right, yeah, fuck Shungis.
I mean, I don't think manypeople have beat Shungi right,
like by submission no, very,very few.
And so that's what I love abouta grappler is their ability to
(14:34):
fucking go for the kill.
And don't get me wrong, there'splenty value in people winning
on points, because that's partof the game too.
Now, give me who's the intent,who's someone from the modern
era that listens again and belike how can you be overlooking
fucking this guy for taking theback and choking who do you
think You've got to say likeGordon Ryan, he finishes from
(14:59):
the back pretty much better thanlike that's the majority of
Gordon Ryan's finishes, otherthan maybe a leg lock.
It's take the back and stranglesomebody.
The way he fucking finishedGalvan in the super fight was
just like so masterful, soclinical, yeah, and I mean he
just did it to everybody man,yeah, like anyone and everyone.
That's.
That is possibly.
(15:20):
And you know the reason why Ididn't want to choose Galvan
Gordon within.
This is an easy pick.
There's nothing for you guys tolearn.
No, you get nothing from that,because you're already saying,
you're probably already sayingin your mind, well, why would
you match up this composite guyagainst Gordon?
And so let's see what happens.
Right, because he's got.
But I feel like there are sometraits that really helped Gordon
(15:41):
be as great as he is yeah,which we can get to later when
we get to some of those otherqualities.
But, but, yeah, no, fair point.
And I think, if we're talkingfront front choking, like, yeah,
you'd have to take a CadeRotolo, das, the DAS, yeah, no,
no, no, I've got.
I think that Is that a separatethe Rotolos?
(16:03):
Yeah, and I think you have tohave a certain forearm length
not only long arms, but forearmspecifically to be able to do
that, and they have that.
I mean as much as they havetheir elite skills and amazing
cardio and everything that makesthem great.
That forearm length thing is ahuge piece within being able to
just darts people from anywhere,yeah, and so that's for me.
(16:28):
Me, it's a little traitdependent and that's why I kind
of go, ah, you know, like Idon't, I don't like to lean on
something that's too traitdependent.
A gift from deus, yeah, fromthe gods, like in the same way,
like if somebody's like crazyflexible, maybe they worked on
it, maybe they didn't like, butsomeone who's just super rubber,
like people might be, oh, butwhat about Eddie Bravo's like
(16:50):
rubber guard, cause that changedgrappling of its time.
Like if you can make someonesuper flexible, but it's like I
don't want to lean on that tohim.
I want to go more to skill,yeah, particular skill, even
though the DAS is a skill, don'tget me wrong.
I would say that the Rotolo'sability to finish with a DAS is
like pretty unmatched.
Yes, from that front headlockattack.
(17:11):
Who you got?
Oh, I'm going to go old school,let's throw it back.
I'm going to OG.
Which quality are we talking?
We're going to talk submissionrate.
Submission rate Like highestsubmission finish in the history
of the game, wow, okay.
Who am I talking about now?
I'm going game, wow, okay, whoam I talking about now?
(17:32):
I'm gonna talk about leg locks.
Who has the highest percentagefinish rate in the history of
jujitsu?
Minari matches to no masato ofa regga rock.
Uh, yes, no, no, no.
I.
Much respect to iminari.
I love him.
Um, we're talking dean lister.
Motherfuckers, why would youignore 50% of white grapplers?
He's a mutant.
He's a mutant.
I met him, mike.
(17:52):
He's out of his prime but he'sI met him too.
He's a fucking lovely guy.
He's lovely, fucking lovely guy.
He's such a lovely guy.
Yeah, interesting, realcharacter of a One of the
eccentrics of jiu-jitsu, youknow.
But I think his percentage ratefinish is 90, is 89%.
It's something crazy that inlike I think it's like 26 ADCC
(18:17):
matches, he has like 24 or 23heel hook finishes.
Specifically Like when and nowI'll speak with some inside
information here when locky andcraig were like how do we beat
these top level brazilians, leglocks, who did they?
(18:38):
Look to dean fucking lister.
Now, obviously their executionwas different.
They didn't necessarily do itthe way dean did it, because he
was doing it in a time when backin 2001 you know this is it
wasn't the flavor of that time,but he also wrestled Like it
wasn't that he was an MMAfighter, he wasn't that.
He was just like this poolguard kind of guy.
He did a bunch.
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We'll see you on the inside.
But if we're looking at the mostsuccessful leg locker in terms
of the amount of times hefinished people with heel hooks,
(19:43):
it's Dean Lister.
Yeah, wow, you take that primeDean Lister heel hook game.
Yeah, he just fucked everyoneup, including Adolfo Vieira
Lister.
Yeah, Wow, you take that primeDean Lister heel hook game.
Yeah, he just fucked everyoneup, including Adolfo Vieira.
He actually he.
He submitted so many top levelguys.
It's a classic image of himhitting the an outside.
Maybe I think it's like a kneebar heel hook on him.
Yeah, it's kind of side kneebar with the twist.
It's brutal, yeah, immaculate.
(20:11):
Yeah, and so it's I, eventhough a lot of people know
locky for leg locks and likecraig and like even um eddie
wolverine as really pioneering,like inside hill hooks in dds
and all of that, yeah, the guywho really pushed it hardest
early, dean lister well, yeah,and he was, I mean, danaher kind
of quoted.
That Lister was his sort ofinspiration, wasn't he?
Yeah, in a lot of ways.
(20:31):
And so I think that if you guyshave never really seen those
matches, all you have to do isjust go YouTube.
There's a lot of highlightvideos which I haven't seen a
lot.
Dean Lister's kind of probablysort of just pre-my taking an
interest in watching.
It's probably two or threegenerations before we even
started doing jiu-jitsu, but youalso got to um.
(20:53):
It's also at a time when there'sjust much less content around
it, right, yeah, so you'relooking at like adcc highlight
clips and the footage looksjanky.
It looks like kind of handheldshit, but it's the.
It's odd because like they comeout in like mismatched, like
they're not wearing the slickgear that they wear now.
No, you remember I was justthinking, when you said Marcelo
Garcia when he fought RicoRodriguez, yes, and Rodriguez
(21:15):
walks out in basketball shortsfrom Charlotte Hornets and just
cut off sleeves, yeah, andyou're like this doesn't look
professional.
Marcelo has blue shorts and ablack long-sleeved rashie, but
then the Marcelocia like it'speeling off of it because you
only got one right, becauseyou're like what's a lot of
money to get a rash?
No, but it's just like thequality of, yeah, it wasn't.
(21:37):
Like it's not like vhts fucking, like the two-tone gradient.
No, the level of professionalthe grappling was, but the
professionalism was far lower.
Yeah, and when you go back andyou watch Dean Lister, just put
Dean Lister heel hook highlightyou'll be like holy shit, this
guy just wrecked everyone and itwas.
(22:01):
People might say it's lesscompetitive, but I believe he
was just way more effective atgoing to the leg and doing the
thing.
I mean, of course it's lesscompetitive right at an earlier
stage because the game is lessevolved and there's less people
in it, sure, but I don't thinkthat detracts in any way from
the impact one athlete was ableto have, because it's still just
(22:22):
a collection of like five toten hardcore cunts that are the
best in the world and beatingthe shit out of each other.
Yeah, and that never changeslike what they're five to 10
hardcore cunts that are the bestin the world Beating the shit
out of each other.
Yeah, so, and that, and thatnever changes like what they're
doing and how that and how manypeople there are preceding them.
That changes, but the actual atthat top level, it's always
fucking savagery.
Yeah, and the thing that peopleunderestimate is like if you
didn't, if you didn't have DeanLister, you wouldn't have craig
(22:51):
and lockie and and and a lot ofthese other guys subsequently in
the form they've taken, yeah,so I think you can take a lot of
um, if you understand thesethings, it puts a much better
understanding on the modern game.
Yep, and so we're building theultimate modern grappler.
Now this the next one I'm goingto go to.
This is my final one, but you,you feel where you're going.
(23:11):
This because I want to justtalk about the guard, guard gi
or no game, because for a longtime people hung shit on pulling
guard, playing guard, like it,which it's kind of like that's
not practical to fighting,that's not heterocentral.
Uh, you know, people call itbesmirch, the idea of a guard,
(23:33):
right, when, for the best part,besmirching motherfuckers how
dare you, for cinerousactivities, besmirched me.
This count, um.
But think this this gentleman isa four-time adcc, two-time or
three-time super fight champion,four-time world gi champion.
No gi champion, like prettymuch won as much as any person
(23:56):
can win across all spheres andhas beaten all of the best, as
in beat Jacare, beat Galvan youname anyone, he's pretty much
beat them.
I think the only person hehadn't beaten in a competition
is maybe hodja.
Right, he's just beaten everyone of your favorite grapplers.
(24:16):
He beat them.
We're talking bralio esteem, amotherfucker.
Oh, wow.
Now you might look at this andsay, oh, maybe it's trait
dependent because you've gotvery long, but this is a guy who
, you can see, has had a hugeinfluence on any guard player,
gi or no Gi.
This isn't just like, oh, hewas a Gi guy.
No, one of the most famousphotos I remember is him doing a
(24:41):
reverse triangle on AndreGalvan on the front of Gracie
Mag and Andre Galvan being likeoh my God, fuck.
And the moment where he taps.
And Andre Govan being like ohmy God, fuck.
And the moment where he taps.
And he's like oh my God, and.
And.
And Craig actually borrowed abit from um, his triangle game,
from, uh, brawley, esteema, okay, and, and, and the amazing
thing, I've been very fortunateto have met Brawley a bunch of
(25:05):
times.
Guy, he's always down to party,you know, and, and anyone I
speak to is like, yeah, man,brother, he likes to party, he's
always up for a good time, buthis jujitsu is so fucking legit
and this is something that it'skind of an older era that people
wouldn't necessarily think ofhim when it comes to guard they
might think of like the meowbrothers, or they might think of
(25:26):
the Mendez Brothers, aoj, youknow, they might think about
Cabrinha or like any of theseguys who are great in Gi and no
Gi, who have these guards whichare just.
Even a guy like KeenanCornelius, who invented
Wormguard and was great Gi or noGi, like Braulio Stima is one
of the most achieved guardplayers, as you would call them,
(25:48):
and the list of people he'ssubmitted is pretty hard to deny
.
Would you say, what about aHodger Gracie as a guard
contender People?
Yes, but the reason why I wouldchoose Braulio is because his
(26:09):
guard is more open, right,hodger is famous for closed
guard.
Yeah, he just gets closed guard.
He geese sweep, he get you, buthe's a fucking giant, you know
he's 6'5" whatever.
The broadest shoulders, thelongest legs.
I mean, don't get me wrong,braulio Steamer's not a small
guy.
I think he's 6'2", could beedging up on 6'3".
(26:29):
He's kind of like a lean, longguy, yeah, but the sheer size of
Hodger is very overwhelming.
I always find that I'm alwayslike he's like a big
motherfucker.
And don't get me wrong, youwould say Hodger has the most
famous closed guard.
The reason why I find BrawleyOsteema more interesting and why
(26:51):
I think he's a I wouldn't saybetter, but I like his guard
game better is because it's giand no gi.
It's inverting, it's fuckingtriangles, it's taking the back,
it's leg locks, it's youfucking name it.
I think he has one of thequickest submissions ever, which
you may or may not have seen,which is kind of from spider
guard.
I think he has one of thequickest submissions ever which
you may or may not have seen,which is kind of from spider
(27:12):
guard, and he like spins underto like a straight knee bar.
He does it at worlds.
It's very famous actually,cause he's just like knee bar
and it's like Looks like 15seconds.
Wow, I was like what the fuckdid he just do?
There's some black magic rightthere, that's dark and you're
like, wow, he just pulls it out.
So I have put this listtogether because these are not
necessarily the most obviousfamous people, but if you
(27:37):
combine all these elements, youare going to create the greatest
grappler of all time.
Give me your pick for armbar.
Who are you going with?
Huffer Mendes, huffer Mendes,huffer Mendes has the greatest
straight armbar of all time.
There's no, he's Michael Galvan.
For me, he just Okay, fuckingentry on those things.
Michael Galvan's amazing, right, but I just Huffer Mendes can
(28:01):
just Google them side by side.
I think it's a little bit unfairbecause Mikkel Galvaum is so
early right and you know, mendesis Hafa.
Mendes has pretty much finishedhis career, done, yeah, yeah.
So we haven't seen the best ofMikkel Galvaum.
I don't think I've seen enough.
No, no, no, no, no.
(28:23):
You just have to just put in.
Just, let's just trust theinternet, let's just trust the
algorithm.
Don't trust the algorithm, butjust search like hafa mendez,
armbars.
How many people is that guystraight armbarred?
It is insane.
What about, um?
Who we going with for mentalgame?
Oh, wow, so you know.
(28:43):
So what you know of, I mean,and we don't have an insight to
all the athletes on this front.
I'll tell you who I fucking gotfor mental game.
Okay, hicks and Gracie, oh wow,okay, just the fucking, the
toughness and the confidence ofthat.
Motherfucker, I'm going, I'mimplanting that into this
fucking super soldier.
Oh wow, oh, motherfucker, I'mgoing, I'm, I'm implanting that
(29:07):
into this fucking super soldier.
Oh wow, I oh wow.
This is really based on, youknow, the seeing choke.
If you haven't seen, who do youadmire?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also, you know, you get abit of an insight into him as a,
as a guy.
The psychology of hicks andgracie is is impeccable because
he was also, he was just doingas much no rules, no holds
barred, fighting like stomping,punching the back of the head,
shit as much as he was doingKijijutsu.
(29:29):
So this is why Hickson is sorevered.
He was doing that shit, um, inthe eighties, before other
people were even aware of it,before the UFC Mental game.
Fuck, psychology here's.
This is going to sound funny.
I'm going to go with, like that, my opinion, and I I say this
(29:49):
with the utmost respect theidiot savant of sports
psychology.
I'm going to talk about jacaresoza, the alligator.
That guy just does give no fucks.
He comes in so hard, so, sofast.
He really doesn't care who's infront of him.
I'm fucking you up.
His whole mental game is I'mfucking you up, and it is
(30:10):
relentless.
And he talks about not havingthe money to catch the bus home
and he's like therefore, I mustwin the absolute.
I'll have no food and no way toget home.
Therefore, I must win that I'llhave no food and no way to get
home.
Therefore, I must win.
That attitude is just, you knowthose guys from Manaus, like you
know Jose Aldo and like anyonewho's from those, and Mika
(30:32):
Govans from up there, the MilkyBoys, right, like, if you're
from a poor place and you haveno other chance, you're like
this has to work.
I refuse to lose.
Yeah, and it it's notcomplicated, it's not spiritual,
it's not philosophical, it'sjust fuck you, I win today.
And it's just unshakable and I,I've always found that really
(30:54):
like, oh, like.
You see a guy that big do aflying triangle or flying armbar
, and the ferocity that, theintensity, I love intensity, and
so, when it comes to likepsychology, I, I, that's what I
love about him.
Jackarazian man, yeah, we think.
Is there any?
Are there any qualities or, youknow, aspects of the game we've
(31:15):
missed.
We kind of had wrestlingcovered with tonin and hadolfo
in terms of takedowns and thentakedowns and pass, and then
maybe you could say just someonewho like, if we encapsulate it
all, someone who's likeentertaining, like somebody
who's like a bit of a, a showman, like maybe that, that element
of grappling because not allgrapplers have that Like, give
(31:36):
him the fucking Craig Jones.
No, actually, if you watchCraig grapple, it's not super,
it's not highlight material.
No, but it's all the shit.
It's all the shit around.
No, no, no.
I'm talking more.
I'm talking more like no, no,no, no, no.
This is not what I'm referring.
I'm talking to like the Xfactor, the excitement, similar
to Tony, like someone who'sgoing to do a flying triangle,
yeah, someone who's just goingDo something where you're like,
(32:04):
oh my God, what the hell?
Something spectacular.
Is there a spectacular grapplerthat you like Joe?
Well, I couldn't.
I mean Tonin would be my firstpick, right, if I were to look
beyond that, fuck.
Who do I find really exciting?
Fabrizio Andres, you know,fabrizio, yeah, but I'm actually
going to say like Canuto, yeah,canuto's fucking exciting Flips
.
Who's the other guy that alwayscomes out?
(32:26):
He's got that real dark energyabout him, fucking like Central
American, american kind of vibe.
You know the fucking dude, he'sthat Andy Varela.
Andy Varela, he's got that andI apologize if I misplaced his
origins there or his family, buthim and Canuto to me come out
(32:47):
and they're like I'm fuckingputting on a show for cunts.
Yes, and Varela has aparticular nastiness.
It comes across that there arebad intentions, yeah, and I mean
that's exciting as a fan andI've never met Andy, so I don't
no, but he grapples like a cunt,he goes hard, yeah, yeah, he's
got that Shinya Aoki vibe to him.
I was going to say Shinya is apotential.
(33:08):
If we're talking showmanship,right, yep, yep, I would say
that.
I mean, could we?
We're talking Shinya like 2010s?
Yes, it's hard for me because,like my favorite, most
spectacular like, when I thinkof showmanship, it often goes to
MMA, not jujitsu.
There's not many people whobring that element of of of.
(33:32):
Not only am I here to grapple,I'm here to entertain the fans.
Like, are you not entertained?
And I think, when we thinkabout the most recent best match
of all time being, um, you know, tackett versus rotolo, oh yeah
, that, uh, that element ofentertainment, like getting a
(33:55):
position, being like yeah, yeah,like, come on, you know like
the crowd gets excited for it.
I actually am going to sayLeandro Lowe.
Leandro Lowe has the ability,he's clutch, he could be down on
points.
He's going to take the back andchoke the guy.
He could be down on points andpull out the takedown against a
bigger, stronger opponent heseems unlikely to look at and
(34:22):
then he just does thespectacular, he commits all and
makes it happen.
And for me you know, you seehim get the takedown he's just
like, yeah, like you fuckingknow, it Drives on the crowd,
yeah, and you feel the crowd,the interaction between the
crowd and the grappler.
I think that's also part of thereason why he was so beloved.
(34:44):
Rest in peace.
And that's, you know, part ofthe thing I admire about him,
because I don't think of him asan athlete in the same way.
I think of a Adolfo or kind ofseems like, kind of average,
like a little bit lumped andbumped, like a bit injured, and
he would just make it fuckinghappen.
(35:06):
And people thrived off theelectricity of his ability to
make it happen.
Who would your pick be for thequality of never tapping the
cunt that just lets like, justgo for it.
Bro Frank Conant, I'm nottapping Wow.
Well, there's some pretty Likeand we could say this is like
(35:27):
the near impossibility to submit.
Oh God, I mean, there's so manyexamples of people just eating
it and then getting out.
I'm going to say VinnieMargulies, based on the Craig
Jones fight, no, well, he foughtthe heavyweight final against
(35:49):
Fabricio Verdum and Verdum hadhim in the deepest armbar.
He fucking got out.
Like it's unbelievable howelastic that man is for being a
big heavyweight guy.
But there's many examples.
I mean, elastic implies that notendons were broken.
Well, no, they definitely.
Well, I think, actually thebones broke with the Craig match
(36:13):
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it broke histip-fib like a spiral fracture,
more than he tore ligaments.
There's so many matches he toreligaments.
There's so many matches Likeyou think about when Gary Tonin
was getting armbarred byHickson's son, cron, cron,
gracie, that's ridiculous.
(36:35):
Him getting out of that armbaris crazy.
I'm having a hard time recall.
I remember they fought.
Yeah, I mean, that was Cronreally doing great.
We're talking about, about, I'mthinking fucking craig jones,
gordon ryan.
That was fucking deep, that wassuper deep, and and and and
gordon did complain about howsore his elbow was I?
I think for me it has to be,and I don't.
I never remember which one is,but meow brothers, which one?
(36:56):
Is it paulo or joel?
Yeah, it would be paulo, again,with tie, tie breaking his leg,
yeah, and the knee.
Then that shot of the, the, the, the reverse, you bend on the
knee, the knee for those whohaven't seen it, it's just full
hyper extension.
You can actually see where thejoint knee joint is kind of
dislocated and ty is just likecranking, giving it everything.
(37:20):
And is it it Paulo or Joao?
I'm confident it's Paulo meow.
Okay, just poker face.
Yeah, just nothing, just like.
Looking for the back yeah, justhow do I take the back from you?
Next position, yeah, oh man,yeah, you're probably right.
Actually, I will say, like asmuch as Vinny probably is more
(37:45):
famous in some of his escapes Iknow this firsthand a friend of
ours and sponsored Bulletproofathlete, fabio Colloi Fabinho,
from Alliance.
He said that he had Paula Meowsin a toe hold and touched his
big toe to the back of his calf,like snapped his ankle, wow,
completely.
Like felt the ankle go andfolded the ankle Wow, like that
(38:09):
Didn't tap, got his back taken.
He was like he's got a tap.
No, wow, break my shit, I'mstill going to take your back,
I'm still going to get out ofthis.
Wow, their willingness to takedamage is pretty unparalleled.
Yeah, take your back, I'm stillgoing to get out of this.
Their willingness to takedamage is pretty unparalleled.
Yeah, it's kind of psychotic.
Yeah, um, that's the qualitythat we're looking for in the
greatest.
You want to be the nextbulletproof sponsor because
(38:31):
we've got we've got a lot ofwork to do to look after those
bodies.
But I mean, obviously there's somany great grapplers jiu-jitsu
is so big so many people didn'tget a mention.
Of course, that's right.
Some of the you guys listeningare going to have some you know
some up in arms.
I'm sure how the fuck didso-and-so not get a mention?
How come you didn't mention?
And I think it's because andyou're right in saying this, joe
(38:56):
because of flow grappling, it'son one FC.
You know there is so much mediaaround jujitsu.
People will have tuned into aparticular event and be like,
how come he didn't mention thismatch with this grappler?
Yeah, what about Nikki Robb?
Yeah, how about like fuckingAdele?
Yeah, man, her finishing rate,right.
(39:18):
I guess the reason why I saythis is for the newer generation
of grappling, of grapplers andgrappling.
We haven't seen it completelyreach its fruition.
Like these, grapplers are stillyoung.
The greatest matches they'reever going to have are coming.
Wait, fruition implies thatthere's an end point, does it
not?
Well, yeah, an end point whenyou fucking retire?
(39:39):
Yeah, there are ways off, but Ithink, but the evolution is
just forever, no, no, yeah, anend point when you fucking
retire?
Yeah, but there are ways off,but I think, but the evolution
is just forever.
No, no, no, no.
But I'm saying that I'm talkingabout individual grapplers in
their fucking prime.
Yeah, our modern day guys,whoever's, like J-Rod, whoever
you mentioned, they are notprime yet.
They are, they're just hittingtheir strap.
(40:01):
Yeah, like, the next five yearsis prime time for this
generation of grapplers.
Yeah, the, the, the Rotolos, orall of that generation, the
Tacketts, uh, levi, all theseguys like, it's prime time now.
So we will see the greatestmatches of all time in the next
couple of years.
I it's.
We only have seen glimpses ofthat so far which was, you know,
(40:23):
possibly you know, uh Cadeversus um Tackett as the
greatest match of the, the, thecommon modern era of grappling.
So we have to revisit theconversation later.
I feel I just want to use it.
In five years, I wanted Iwanted to like use this to shine
a light on some folks thatmaybe aren't being talked about
as well.
Yeah, that's right.
(40:44):
Hopefully this puts a spike inthe YouTube fucking search
results for probably our steamer.
But yeah, we're just fuckingaround, it's good, it's good fun
.
Fuck, yeah, there it is, but weobviously know that you will
have a different opinion Soundout in the comments.
We do like to see it because itsparks conversation and, yeah,
please feel free to referencefamous matches that we did not
(41:05):
touch on.
We appreciate it.
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