March 14, 2024 • 42 mins
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Ever been stumped by the price tags on restaurant wine lists? Chris Horn from Purple Cafe pulls up a chair with me to tackle the truth behind those numbers and how blind wine tasting could be the key to unlocking the real value in a bottle. We take a hard look at the influence of terroir in wine marketing and how biases can blur our perceptions. Chris, our director of liquids, spills the beans on how price points sway decisions and the sting of wine markups at eateries. Plus, we get real about the dusty three-tier system that's still bottlenecking wine distribution.
Raise your glass to the artful dance of winemaking, where we explore the line between a flaw and a feature in our favorite vines. Is it a Brettanomyces bloom or just a mistake? And who knew Cindy Crawford's mole could teach us about complexity in wine? We chat about the trusty cork, its modern upgrades, and the eco-friendly wave of Stelvin caps and Tetra Paks challenging tradition. Imagine a wine bar where the box is king – we do just that, contemplating how these innovations might shake up the way we sip and serve wine.
Nostalgia's on the menu as we reminisce about our first forays into the world of wine and the tunes that scored those heady days. From Dale's Tavern jams to international wine adventures, we weave tales of music, wine, and the neighbors who turned us on to new flavors and sounds. Through stories of Germany's vineyards to Tuscany's rolling hills, we celebrate the journey of our palates and playlists. So, whether you're a wine buff or a music aficionado, there's a seat at the table for you in this episode full of heart, humor, and a splash of the unexpected.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jabroni gang.
What up, guys?
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much forsupporting us.
If you listen to the episode,we got Chris Horn here from
Purple Cafe.
He is the director of liquids.
Really awesome, dude.
We were just talking aboutterroir, if you listen to the
(00:22):
original episode, and so Ihaven't prepped him on some
questions I'm gonna ask him, butoh, great.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They're nothing crazy honestly so I've got nothing to
hide.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, but we were talking about terroir earlier
and and marketing yeah a lot ofthe wine marketing, but kind of
going in that same vein.
Where are you at with theimportance of blind tastings?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Okay, I've done a lot of it, mm-hmm.
I Think that, as a wine buyer,the only blind spot should be
the price right, because I likethat if you and so if I, when
I'm tasting With people, if I'venever tasted with them before,
(01:11):
I'll warn them.
Don't tell me how much thisfucking costs.
Yeah that won't fucking buy itbecause it's always gonna be
more expensive than it should be.
But when you are tasting a wineand you You're, you're putting
it in contests with all thoseother say, siras from the
Columbia Valley, and you can getthat price in your brain, go
fuck, if this thing is less than21 bucks, I'm gonna buy a bunch
(01:32):
of it.
Yeah and then if they say it's28, you're like okay.
But if they say we got a deal,for we're trying to move some
for 1399, you're like how muchyou got.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah so that real quick, just for the people that
are not familiar with how winebuying works.
Um, they're seeing me, they'rehearing all these low prices.
Like I can buy a bottle.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
The whole sale people .
Okay, sorry to interrupt up.
Yeah, there's nothing.
People bitch about wine markups.
How much did that fuckingt-shirt you bought at Banana
Republic for 35 bucks cost to bemade like?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
rights it's.
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, or that cocktail that you just paid 18
bucks for how much do you thinkthat?
Costs to be made or a fuckingpint of beer.
Yeah, like we're okay.
But with wine, for some reason,people are always like I hate
it when people in the fuckingrestaurant and they look in the
wine list and they got thefucking wine searcher out and
they're like, oh well, theretail on this is $28.
You're charging me 56.
(02:28):
Yeah, it's cuz we, we have topay for this building and all
the other things happeningaround you, and like you're not
just putting you know bag andtake it home and drinking.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yes, also our 3-tier system that we have.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, which, yeah, don't get me started on that
bullshit.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a wine distribution people.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, we are still dealing with laws written
shortly after prohibition, soyeah.
That's bonkers.
Anyway, what was the questionagain?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
It was wine tasting oh.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I.
It is important when you'relearning wine, I think, to be
able to perceive things,understand tenant, understand
acid.
Yeah, that's those, thosethings that we talk about.
That our body.
It's really important,especially as a person in a
restaurant, to understand,because that's that's the things
(03:21):
you're gonna deal with whenyou're pairing food and wine.
There's the things that come tomind first.
It also is great if you try andlike figure out like what is
typical, what, what does cornustastes like?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
right.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So I think it's valuable, but I also think that
the spirit of it sometimes is alittle less generous, right?
I fucking hate it whensomeone's like hey, what's this?
Oh Christ, I know it's grosseskvaks, riesling from 2009.
I don't fucking whatever.
Yeah, because the parlor trickof it is it's again.
(03:57):
I've done the thing whereyou've been.
You're in an academic situation, right?
I almost just fucking braggedman.
I almost turned in thatdouchebag saying there was this
one time when I called it a 97insignia, fuck that guy, I was
almost that guy though, likebecause it feels fucking rad
when you nail it.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh, it does, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
You feel like, but it happens one out of every 50
times, not that often, yeah andI think that, again, that that
academic side of wine also cutsoff.
Like you know, there's some,there's some great expressions
of wine that Tasted blind.
I don't know if you really, ifyou really understanding the,
(04:39):
the, the spirit behind it.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
So yeah, my, my view on blind tasting has always been
education, education, education.
I'm here to learn and if I getit right, that means I am
Absorbing this informationcorrectly right.
And I've been a part of a lotof blind tasting groups I've had
.
First it was just me and myfriend and we watched the Psalm
(05:08):
one Documentary and we werefresh into wine.
They're just in a tasting room,right.
And then we're like, okay, thisis what we're gonna do every
week.
We're gonna blind each other.
You bring two bottles, I'llbring two bottles, and then we
have to drink them all here.
Just take home what you wantand then drink it throughout the
week, or whatever, or in acouple days, and then well,
that's just fine.
That's fun and that's how we gotstarted and then we started
(05:30):
understanding so much more, justbased on experience, because in
Santa Barbara we had some wineshops had a lot of international
wines and.
So it could be anything thatbring that he brings to your
table.
And then I was at a spot calledJaffers wine cellars in Santa
Barbara making wine there andthen there was a All everyone
(05:52):
there was green, like supergreen, and I was like, okay,
cool, well, let me share thispassion with you and maybe
you'll learn something.
And so I brought them to thetasting stuff and then they
didn't know shit about wine andthey're like I don't know, it
tastes like cherries or whatever.
And then you know, fast forward, six months later they're
getting.
They're hitting him like notvintage, because we would do the
(06:13):
whole vintage region greatvariety thing, and which is it's
a fun Standard to try and shootfor, it's a good target, but
you know you're not gonna hitthe bulls eye every time like
it's gonna be one out of like,if you're really good, one every
10 bottles or something likethat, yeah, and but those
(06:33):
bottles that you nail are Reallyspecific.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah and and and touchstone bottles.
Yes and that those are good toknow.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, and sometimes because you know the people,
because you've been with themright.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know like oh yeah , you kind of know their budget
is yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And so like there's this one, there's this one time
that they're blinding me onstuff.
And then I was like, okay, thisis.
I said the vintage, I was wrongon it, but it's a matter.
And I was like I think this isa you know old world in his own
area seems to be a blend, buthonestly I I could taste the
(07:11):
fruitiness from the granage, Icould taste the earth from the
Morved, the pepper from thesarah, and so like I think this
is a a wrong blend.
So I'm gonna say it's jigandas,because definitely not gonna be
shouting up to pop because hecan't afford that.
And I was right, but at the sametime that wasn't a full blind
tasting.
I knew the guy right.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I mean it was, it was brown-backed so when I do
tasting competitions formagazines like sip magazine or
the Great Northwest Invitational, we're judging wines blind and
I think that that context isImportant.
But then again, when you'rejudging, you're coming with
(07:55):
everything that you know aboutwine.
Yeah, and sometimes you're on apanel with people that have
different filters and Maybe youridea of quality is different
than their idea of quality.
So I mean, yeah, how do I geton the Jag?
I think that it's, it's the.
The.
The headspace of tasting blindis Is good, but you don't have
(08:15):
to be completely blind to beable to get into that headspace
and experience and extrapolatethe information out of the glass
.
Yeah, but yeah, there's,there's some people that are
really good at it.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, I mean when I moved to Shalane like the
tasting your bow is a part of.
It was fun.
It we'd bullshit a lot, talkshit to each other and it's fun
and light-hearted, totally right, right.
And when I did a Shalane thing,create a group there everyone
was so fucking serious andScared we were terrified.
(08:52):
Well, and I had some seasonedwinemakers there that have never
blind tasted before, and sothere's some ego there.
They're like, oh, I know wine,but like, oh shit, wine tasting
oh shit, this is new.
I have to be humble, in thesetting which I haven't known
nothing about something in along time, and so that was an
interesting experience.
(09:12):
Coming from like the fun,lighthearted bullshit to the
more, everyone was more seriousand I was trying to poke fun at
people to you know lighten it upa little bit, to lighten it up
and then some people really tookoffense to it and just like was
, and they just recoiled.
I was like, oh, okay, maybe myintentions here weren't clear.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
There's so much intimidation in the world wine,
though, like that's when thequarter masters first came to
Seattle to do testing at the WHotel back in February of 2002.
There was a bunch of us thatwere going to go take the test.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Because we were wine people.
Right, we were working at arestaurant and we were pulling
corks for a living.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But a lot of people dropped out last thing because,
like what, if you take that testand not passed, then then your,
your, your bona fides arefucking gone.
So I think blind tasting kindof feels like that too, like if
I can't call a wine today.
I don't know what the fuck I'mdoing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah.
And that's that has enough.
I mean it has doesn't reallyhave a lot to do with winemaking
.
I mean it has to do with yourpalate.
Well, a winemaker's tastingpalates completely different
than a sommelier's tastingpalates I do love tasting with
winemakers, because they knowflaws better than I do.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, it's crazy and I'm like I've not.
I can tell me what that is.
I've not.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, I have tasted with Charlie.
That makes he's a winemaker atCardis here where we're
recording right now.
I didn't make that clear whenwe started the Patreon episode.
And the co-owner of Cardis whenI've.
I taste with him very often andI learned something new every.
He's so nerdy Like we just didan episode with him a couple
(10:58):
episodes back and he is socurious and nerdy about
everything having to do withmaking the wine.
He can taste it and be like, um, yeah well, I just think they
they did this too early or thistoo late, or maybe you know,
whatever it is.
Yeah, and just like I don't knowhow you absolutely they do that
.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
There's a difference between driving a car and
building a car.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Like people with cars .
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, we drive them.
Yeah, it's a.
Yeah, I don't hit that.
There's so much science in inthe world of wine, like that.
Yeah, I think that some people,the people that don't
understand the science of wine,don't oftentimes make great wine
, right?
Um?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
yes, although, well, you can know the science and not
have a palate, and then right,and you also make shitty wine
because you don't know whatfaults are.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
But then again I, uh, I think a little flaw isn't bad
.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Right, that's an interesting conversation because
there is the idea of, like somepeople think, like a little bit
of Brett, add some complexity,it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Cindy Crawford's mole .
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
That's without that mole.
She's not Cindy Crawford.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
But she's beautiful because that mole, and so I have
had arguments with people thatare smarter than me.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
That's a great example.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
That, uh, if there's Brett in the wine, they're like
that's a flaw, brett's a flaw.
But I'm like, no, yeah, butit's a beautiful flaw, it's
delightful.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, Well, that's like that's a wine maker.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Or oxidation.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Saying that too.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Uh, I think oxidation is great in a wine, sometimes
enough of it, like a Chardonnaythat has a little bit of
oxidation, has that little bitof nuttiness is so great with
certain food applications Right.
Because, that that nuttinessbridges to things really nicely.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, but it oxidation is an interesting one,
because I do like the nuttiness, I know what you're saying.
But then there's a line whereit just becomes like bruised
yeah, a lapel, really quick.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
There definitely is a I I.
I have some bottles in theinventory that I'm saving for
the next time I teach flawedwines, because they're oxidized
and they're not pleasurableanymore.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Um I wish I could know.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I mean, everyone wishes us that drinks wine, I
think.
But like wish I knew when awine was corked before I pulled
the cork just for educationpurposes, cause there's so many
times where, like I don't knowwhat corked wine smells like,
I'm like well, we usually haveone at the restaurant.
Yeah, well, cause we pull corksout of so many bottles Each
(13:26):
night?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, and corks have gotten better, but it still
allows you way to plug up theneck of a bottle Like I.
I think it's the technologythat preceded the cork was an
oily rag shoved in with a thumb,so I don't know why we have a
problem.
And yes, cork farming is athing and like there's people
affected if we stop using cork,I get all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But it's, it's, it's, it's dumb.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I'd rather imagine, if, imagine, if the thing that
we, uh, we sealed our beers with, uh, created faults once every
hundred bottles of beer.
Be like fuck this thing, let's,let's use something else.
Yeah, but yeah, they've done alot.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I mean cork technology has come so far.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, like a lot yeah .
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Do you know about DM?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
corks.
Okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I did um.
Actually at the ShalandCarter's tasting room, DM came
there, did a whole presentation.
I was there for it.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
But I just want to so why?
But why are we going on allthese great lengths when you can
just put a fucking Stelvin onthat or a goddamn bottle cap or
a tetrapacker whatever we putwine in it's.
It's part of that, thataspirational fine wine marketing
thing.
It's like if it's not in a 750bottle with uh, with a cork in
it, I can't charge that much.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, but you're like well, I've had some great um
leader bottles from Italy with acork like with a screw cap on
it.
Yeah, no, it's you know thatare red wines.
No.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Uh, uh.
But again, because we have tosell wine, we have to adhere to
the traditions so that we canhave a larger audience.
Cause I think maybe I might bea little bit of in being the
minority as far as like beingokay with a wine being in a
fucking milk carton.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Well, that's another trend I was actually going to
talk to you about on theoriginal episode.
We didn't have time, for it Ispouches with the tap on it.
Yeah, because what ToddlessCreek?
They did a three liter box witha bag, and then the walls did
(15:33):
the same thing, and then AmosRome, they just they're coming
out with one in April, and sothe three liter rose.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I'm sure they'll sell the shit out of it.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
That's four bottles.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, why not?
You know, and the amount ofenergy it takes to transport
those bottles, or sorry, thatbox versus those bottles.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, box or the pouch or whatever it is.
It's, I think you're going tovote.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I think it's going to be really easy to get those
into people's refrigerators andhomes.
Yeah.
It's going to be hard to getthose in the restaurants, though
.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, Because.
Well, is it though?
No, because is there a?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I think that there's a legal thing.
No, it has nothing to do withlaw.
It has to do with people beinglike oh, you're pouring.
You're charging me 12 bucks forthat glass of wine You're
pouring out of a box.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Who the fuck are you guys Like that?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
We keep the box in the fridge.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, yes, it was white, but still like when we
buy cooking wine it's in afucking box and if we leave it
on the floor too long I getnervous because people are
walking by seeing fucking boxwine in the restaurant, so I got
, yeah, yeah.
Rule number one box wine goesright in the kitchen.
Don't let people see that shit,Because you know, I think that I
(16:42):
I there's going to be somebodyclever enough to open like a
wine bar where it's just boxwine and it's going to be the
kind of wine bar where you'redrinking out of maybe a red solo
cup and everybody's got dogsand we're just hanging out Like,
yeah, there's a.
I could see the potential ofthat kind of wine bar where it
(17:02):
feels more like a brewery.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, yeah, more of like a brewery style.
I totally get that, or do you?
Um, how do you feel aboutglassware and presentation?
Is it important to you kind ofgoing off the red solo cup thing
?
Yeah, because to me, like Idon't know, maybe I'm a snob or
crazy but like I love doing thisshit, yeah you know, we, we do
(17:27):
love.
It's also a take of my net atthis point.
It's just something I do Iswirl, whatever I'm drinking,
even if it's like a glass ofwater.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I'm swirling that shit.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, I've swirled lots of beer.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think, uh.
So at home I have a lot ofdifferent glassware.
Uh, some of it is that plasticGovino, fucking Stanley shit.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Cause I just tossed in the washing machine and not
think about it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
It's a little easier.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Um, I think that it kind of depends on the venue,
yeah, like in a restaurant.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So it's more of a setting thing for you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Really is Cause I, you know, we, we have different
glassware in differentrestaurants.
The Mcton restaurants, um, someof them don't have somewhere,
but I think it's okay, Cause I'mI mean the burrito drinking a
Baja Saviano Blanc.
So I'm fine, drinking it out ofthat.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Um, but I think that there maybe is a little too much
, like I've done, the seminarswhere you taste different
liquids out of differentglassware and, yeah, there's a
difference, but it's notenormous, and so we basically
have three glasses a sparklingwine glass, which isn't a flute,
(18:45):
it's more like a uh no, it's,it's more like a I think uh, I
think the the term, I think it'scalled the Prosecco glass
reedle makes it uh, but it itjust has a wider mouth and
allows you to get more airmatics.
And then we have burgundyglasses and we have just sort of
classic Bordeaux style glasses.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And people on this podcast know how I feel about
champagne foods.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
The garbage.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I just don't like them.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh good, Like I.
Just we're not going to fighttoday.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
If you're going to pour me bubbles, put it in a
white wine glass.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, yeah, don't, don't mess around.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Um or any any glass.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Any glass will be fine, you know that's not a
champagne flute.
No, um, it's that's like.
I feel like there's a leftoverfrom the 80s.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, I mean it depends, like, like you were
saying earlier, your situationand the environment for sure.
Like, if I'm having thischampagne for the first time, I
don't want it in a champagne flu, I want it in a white wine
glass so I can taste everything.
Single thing, yeah, we but ifI've had this wine for a million
times and we're cheersing to awedding or like whatever, I
(19:50):
don't give a shit about theglassware.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Well, if you most wedding wines, not giving me
shit about that anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Bad example, but uh, you know,if I've had this bottle for you
know a long time.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, I've been not drinking for evaluation.
But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, I think flutes are not evaluating the wine,
then?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Think flute sales are down in general.
Yeah, you think so.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Oh yeah that I don't see them much anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I guess I don't go to these places, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, I'm seeing more like the modern sleek, upright
geometric kind of.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Again, there's so much fashion in wine and
glassware, like it's a business,like if you made a glass that
was perfect and never broke, youwouldn't have a business, so
they make them just fragileenough to.
I mean, if I had a tally of allthe glassware broken over the
(20:46):
last 35 years in restaurants, itwould be quite a tally, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, I've broken a lot of shit.
I feel like I feel like realowes me some money for all the
destruction that I've caused.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, we.
The amount of money we spend onglassware for the restaurants
every year is pretty, prettysteep at the end.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
It's made of glass.
Yeah, same time Get a break.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Speaking of which, my girlfriend knows me a lot of
wine glasses.
She always fucking breaks them.
Well again, they're fragile.
I need to have a spot where shecan't bump into them or touch
them Got it All right when I canjust wash them and put them
away.
Yeah, a lot of the problems isI don't put them away the same
(21:34):
time I.
I leave them there for a coupleof days, just upside down on
the on the rack or whatever, andthen she ends up hitting it or
something like that.
I'm going to blame you for this.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
It's all.
It's all on you, man.
It's it's all on me.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
It's all on me, man.
That's good relationship advice.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, it's always going to be you.
It is the truth.
Well, you're married, so thatmakes sense yeah, yeah, no it's,
I can't wait till women justtake over, right, yeah, we've
been fucking it up for centuries.
Totally, yeah, I just want tobe a stay at home dad.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, that doesn't sound that bad.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Mine's, mine's in high school now, so I that
should be sale you should besale.
Yeah, how old is?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
uh, he's going to be 15 in May.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Oh, 15.
Yeah, I was a real shithead in15.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
We looked out.
Yeah, we, we got a good one.
Oh good, yeah, Um he's he'sjust maybe, maybe he's smarter
than me.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Maybe that's the thing.
Yeah, did you take after hishis, his, his, his, his, his,
his, his, his, his, his?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
his, his, his dad or his mom More.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
He's got his mom's brains.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, from here up, it's all her, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
That's a great response.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's the only response that checks out.
It's the only response Exactlyit sure is so I forgot to tell
you this story.
The first bottle wine I everconsumed was in Shalant it was.
It was at the top of No-SeamRoad by the golf course there,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was sitting on the hood of mydad's Caprice Classic.
It was two-tone brown.
(23:07):
You know, oh cool With mycousin Stacy, it was a bottle of
San Michel Giverts from herethat we took the car key and
like shoved the cork inside thebottle and downed it.
So like Shalant's got definitelya place in my heart.
We used to go there everyMemorial Day and I love it.
Week in August and aftercollege there was a place called
(23:29):
Dale's Tavern that me and somebuddies used to roll up into,
and we were in a band andBartender Michael was an old
musician.
He wasn't old, but he was amusician.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Oh, okay, he had all the gear.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
We used to go to Dale's and play Dale's, so yeah,
I've had a lot of good times inShalant over the years.
Dale's where's it's gone now?
It was on the right hand sideup from I mean.
It was Senior Frog still there.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's keep going down the street toward the Apple Cup.
Uh-huh, it was on the righthand side.
Yeah, okay, I don't know what'sthere now.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Cool, All you Shalant locals if you listen to this
there you go.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Remember Dale's man, remember Dale's Michael the
bartender, michael the bartenderat Dale's yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
If you're still around.
It was super fun.
Yeah Well, that's so cool.
What year was that?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
That was the late 90s , early zeros.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
We weren't a very good band.
We weren't great.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I mean, I was in a band as well.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, we were terrible and we didn't have a
lot of material either.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, what kind of band Like?
What was your influences foryour band?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, you know, this was the 90s, uh-huh and, but we
were acoustic.
So I don't know if you, I don'tknow if you could really draw a
lot of lines between.
I mean, we really loved the uh,the Jarrah flies out from
Alison Shane's like that kind ofvibe.
Yeah, uh, it was a little bitof that.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
But also we.
We had a little.
Uh, I had a finger pickingstyle too, so there's a little
bluesy folks in there too, ohnice.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So you were actually kind of decent, I was okay, I
was okay, I was okay.
I was like oh, I'm so good, I'mso good, I'm so good, I'm just
good, I'm just good.
And I'm, I was kind of like oh,what a great musician.
Not as a band, though, Like asa musician, I still play.
It's a great way to relax.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, yeah it's a, but I still play a little bit
too.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I only play like country music or whatever, but
um which is completely oppositeof what I usually listen to.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, I grew up on country music.
My dad was from the hills ofWest Virginia, so that was
always in the car when I was inAlabama.
Roll type.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I grew up on rapping hip hop mostly a lot of like
underground Seattle rappers,blue scholars like Common.
Market and of course, I gotintroduced to Tupac when I was
10 years old so, yeah, yeah,that's the only story you have
to tell.
That's great.
Yeah, that started me.
And then, well, yeah, it waspretty awesome.
But then I got in the countrylike in high school, because my
(26:05):
next-door neighbor across streetfrom me she used to burn me CDs
and bring it over to my house,give me some country stuff that
she would listen to.
Introduce me to Brad Paisleyyou know, and so I was like okay
, I can appreciate this.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Burning CDs man.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
It was, yeah, giving your giving your computer aids?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
yeah is awesome, yeah just for a few songs you know
Lime Wire Napster, remember thatshit.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Oh yeah, now Spotify yeah hey, he figured it out.
Yeah, sean Parker, I think hisname is Crid Napster was
completely illegal.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
But it was had a good run.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
He got shut down and then he created Spotify and then
sold it and he's probablysitting somewhere tropical right
now enjoying life.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Probably hanging out in Palo Alto, all the other tech
dudes.
Yeah, it's an interesting partof the world Enjoying some wine.
I mean so when you're onvacation.
I guess it really depends onwhere you're going, but are you
drinking wine or?
Yeah or drinking othercocktails.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, I think that a lot of our travel is to wine
growing regions.
This year we did Germany,alsace, switzerland, austria.
We also spent some time inTuscany, and but what I do when
I'm there is I don't ask foranything that I've had before,
(27:35):
like because I know that there'sthere's all sorts of wines
everywhere in the wine growingworld that I'll never get chance
to have living here inWashington, so I just you mean
like grape varieties, differentblends or different producers?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, I've never heard of them before.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, and also, yeah, totally grape varieties as well
.
Yeah, it's just love going to awine shop and when you find the
right person and explain like,give me some shit that I can't
get anywhere else, that's,that's what I love to do, yeah,
and I don't.
And then I don't fill mysuitcase with either, because it
just won't taste the same.
Back here I think theexperience.
(28:11):
There's something about takingwine from its source.
Sometimes it's just not thesame.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Do you believe in like, like spiritual, like realm
things when it comes to wine,and not just wine, but other
things?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I think that I don't want to live in a world that
doesn't have some magic.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So here's a wine related magic story.
I was doing a biodynamicseminar down in Napa Valley in
like 2012.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
A biodynamics seminar ?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, it was a weekend like a biodynamic
weekend, where they teach youhow to do compost teas and all
that stuff yeah and the.
The winemaker Rudy was tellinga story about when he first
started at the winery and he didnot believe in biodynamics.
He thought it was fuckingbullshit.
Yeah, if you just read about it, yeah, it sounds a little bit
Voodoo-y.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Like sure, the moon cycles when you're racking off
full moon.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, you can't taste my wine today.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
It's not a fruit day, like what, but yeah, that
extreme with wine sales is kindof weird.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, he was.
He was talking about the, thevineyard manager who'd been
there for years.
Just one day he says, oh, it'sgonna be a really wet winter.
And he's like what?
He's like, yeah, look what thetrees are doing, they're
dropping all, all their pinecones, or sorry, they're not
dropping their pine cones.
And he's like, wow, that'sweird.
And then that was a really wetwinter.
And then, and then the nextyear he's like looking to see
(29:39):
what the trees are doing.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And so there's his name was Rudy yeah from where.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I was Ellers winery.
Back there's a state in Napa.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, oh shit, awesome, they listen to this
podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Okay, yeah, my wife was just down there doing the
doing a tasting with her bestfriend Becky last oh, that's so
cool.
I love the wine, so not inthey're not available right now
in Washington, which is a shame.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
But yeah, they invited me to come down there
and do a podcast with theiry-maker, so yeah, I don't think
he's there anymore.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I think I gotta do it different, different crew.
Yeah, it's been, it's been,it's been a decade plus.
Okay, yeah, but this year,walking around walking the dog
to the neighborhood, I noticedthat like, oh, the trees are
dumping all, all their seeds andthat's because it was that fall
(30:33):
was really dry, and so if aplant knows that it's only gonna
get so much resources to getthose seeds ripe, to propagate
they'll, they'll do their owngreen harvesting right rid of
everything yeah so it's it'skind of fasting, like there
there's something I and I, youknow, with the gun in my head.
Yeah, maybe it's not true, but II'd rather there be some magic,
(30:58):
right.
I think, yeah, you know it'smagical when you taste the wine
that and you, you aretransported that place that came
from.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
That's fucking magical yeah, my friend Jessica
Gaska.
She's a owner wine maker forown label called story of soil
in Santa Barbara.
She sources pretty much all ofher fruit from the Santa Rita
Hills area from biodynamic andorganic and sustainable wineries
.
But she follows the biodynamicway of making wine and so she
does follow the moon cycles.
(31:28):
No, I am.
I don't know what it is aboutit because I don't have enough
information.
I don't have enough knowledge ofbiodynamics or the moon phases
to actually talk about it withany sort of education, but she
exemplifies it.
Her wines are fuckingphenomenal and there has to be
(31:52):
something to it.
I don't know.
There have been some days.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So when I'm tasting a lot of wines in a day, some
days I fucking don't.
Nothing is worth what they'reasking for.
Like the prices are all wrong.
But then there's some dayswhere everything tastes fucking
delicious and if you look at theBiodinamic Calendar and it says
it's a fruit, they are likefuck.
(32:15):
Yep, yep well, maybe there'ssomething to it, but I don't
know.
Well, fermentation is kind ofmagical.
Yeah, we understand yeastconsumes sugar and create, but
the flavors that yeast create,that's magic.
Like I don't understand thatthat different yeast produce
(32:35):
different flavors really.
So what?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting Because the way I
learned was low interventionwhile I'm making, and so we did
a lot of native ferments when Iwas learning and that was the
first, second and third winery Iworked for that they're doing
native stuff not all native, butmostly native and then I come
(33:00):
to an area that doesn'tnecessarily have that same
mindset or culture involved andI think native is bullshit and
it's like oh, I've never hadthis sort of friction before
when talking about nativeferments, because I don't know
how.
I don't know how you feel aboutpoints or whatever, but when I
(33:22):
was doing a native ferment withX, y and Z or Jaffers, we would
regularly get like 99 pointsfrom Jabdonic, which is great.
We were always searching forthat 100 mark, but and that was
a regular thing at least likethree years in a row.
And then I come to a differentplace where they're doing a lot
(33:44):
more manipulation and not makingthe same quality and there's
also a lot of differentvariables within that too,
terroir is a thing like you knowwhere you grow grapes, how you
farm it, when you pick it, youknow everything.
(34:04):
But at the same time, like well,these people have kind of
archaic tools, like they haven'tbought any new equipment in
like 10 fucking years andthey're making some kick-ass
shit.
And then you're wanting to buylike everything and you're not,
and so it's like Better winethrough technology sometimes is
not true.
(34:25):
Yeah, I don't think qualitywine stems from technology.
I don't think that's a thing,but it does help In certain
cases, like you can't rely ontechnology to make the wine for
you.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
No, although there are some wineries that just make
wine by recipe, so you know yes.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Those oscillating, oscillating sorting machines are
crazy.
Have you heard about those?
So, basically, it's a newtechnology, well new within the
last five years or so.
So Oshonasy and Napa, they havethis.
They have two or three of thesesorting machines because
(35:10):
they're crazy.
So you, there's like an iPad,essentially on the sorting
machine, and then you tell itwhich grapes you want, Like
these are the ones I want tokeep Ones that look like this
keep this.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So it's like an optical sorter on steroids.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Exactly, and it has a little laser, it goes through,
has a little puff of air.
Everything that's not up tothat standard gets puffed out.
It's like what the fuck?
It's crazy.
I mean it's so fuckingexpensive.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
They're hell mountains.
That's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
It's like buying a house for three houses, cause
they have three of them.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I think it's great that we can live in a world
where that technology can createa very specific experience
where another wine maker will belike whole cluster.
That's the way to make wineRight, like there's so many
different avenues to go down.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, there's also stylistic yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
But I think that a lot of winemakers, if you ask
them, what do you do today?
Any wine maker that's beendoing it for a couple decades,
like, do you make wine the sameway you did a decade ago?
They'll be no, everything'sdifferent.
Oh, yeah, it's.
We're still learning, yeah.
And I think that I mean when Ithink about the quality of wine
(36:31):
in the Northwest over the last20 years, like it's changed that
fuck ton.
Yeah, there's a lot of goodfucking wine out there.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
There is and I'm here for it.
Yeah, it's quite a right.
I love it.
Does make it difficult.
It's harder to make a list.
Harder to make a list.
It is harder Because you'relike.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I want to add this I want to add this it is and
because you can't buyeverybody's wine.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, does it break your heart sometimes.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
It does because there's some winemakers who are
making great stuff.
But the business of buying wineisn't just getting the things
you want.
It's part of its continuity,part of its price, part of its
what does the restaurant need?
Like, when I taste with people,I never tell them what I think,
(37:17):
because it doesn't fuckingmatter what I think.
It's what the restaurant needs.
And so I try to take myself outof the equation as much as
possible, because I can fall inlove with the wine but it might
not end up on the wine list.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Right, because it's not about you.
It's about the customer andit's about the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
And I don't want to ever have people look at my
wines and go, oh, that'sdefinitely a Chris Warren wine
list, because I don't want tohave my hand in that in such a
way that it becomes obvious.
I think good wine list is likehaving every kind of music that
you can think of in the sameplace and so that when somebody
(37:56):
comes in and wants some countrymusic, I've got a bottle of it
and it's priced correctly and itsounds great.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, and you got a bottle of ace of spades sitting
in the back in the fridge too.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
For the people that want to spend money.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Spend money yeah nope .
That's Jay-Z's label.
Yeah, oh well, when they were.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Well, he's part owner .
Yeah, Full owner.
We've had a lot of celebs comein over the years, and so when
he was in town with Beyonce, wemade sure that we got some doose
cognac.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
There you go.
Just in case they came in, justin case, because you don't want
you got to have it, becausewhat happens if Jay-Z asks for?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
his cognac and you're like, oh, I don't have it.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
You got to have it for a hove in the queen man,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Don't be a dick, but sadly no yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
I forgot to do this for the main episode, but can
you plug?
I'll put it in as well.
Plug anything you need to plugor want to.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Oh, I mean, I think that I'm not really good at
self-promotion.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
OK, never have been.
I'm not selling anything either.
Maybe restaurant promotion.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
I mean, people can come to a cafe in Seattle or
Woodinville, but we have avariety of great restaurants.
We have some great Mexicanrestaurants, we have a lovely
sort of American Italian conceptand then we have a really
amazing sort of plant forwardrestaurant called Liv Bud that
(39:31):
is some of the best food that wemake and Chef Sarah is fierce
and the wine that makes thingsit does skew toward the natural
side of things.
Yeah, so it's just hard to find,because all the construction on
the road in front of the placeis making it hard to get there.
It's crazy, but that will fadein time it will, which is good,
(39:52):
but yeah, I think we're justgoing to keep trying, because in
the restaurant business, if youdon't keep evolving and keep
trying, you will die.
So I think, we've done a prettygood job.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
You've got to be a chameleon.
Yeah, got to adapt.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And yeah, for the thing that I said would never
work.
It's been 18 years, yeah.
There, you go, it's never goingto work.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I'm still here.
I'm still here, here we go.
It's working.
It's working Well.
Thank you, Chris, for coming onthe podcast Appreciate it.
Jabroni Gang.
Thank you guys for your support.
I hope you love this episode.
Yeah, Thank you, man.
Cheers Bye.
Jabroni gang.
What up, guys?
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much forsupporting us.
If you listen to the episode,we got Chris Horn here from
Purple Cafe.
He is the director of liquids.
Really awesome, dude.
We were just talking aboutterroir, if you listen to the
(00:22):
original episode, and so Ihaven't prepped him on some
questions I'm gonna ask him, butoh, great.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They're nothing crazy honestly so I've got nothing to
hide.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, but we were talking about terroir earlier
and and marketing yeah a lot ofthe wine marketing, but kind of
going in that same vein.
Where are you at with theimportance of blind tastings?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Okay, I've done a lot of it, mm-hmm.
I Think that, as a wine buyer,the only blind spot should be
the price right, because I likethat if you and so if I, when
I'm tasting With people, if I'venever tasted with them before,
(01:11):
I'll warn them.
Don't tell me how much thisfucking costs.
Yeah that won't fucking buy itbecause it's always gonna be
more expensive than it should be.
But when you are tasting a wineand you You're, you're putting
it in contests with all thoseother say, siras from the
Columbia Valley, and you can getthat price in your brain, go
fuck, if this thing is less than21 bucks, I'm gonna buy a bunch
(01:32):
of it.
Yeah and then if they say it's28, you're like okay.
But if they say we got a deal,for we're trying to move some
for 1399, you're like how muchyou got.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah so that real quick, just for the people that
are not familiar with how winebuying works.
Um, they're seeing me, they'rehearing all these low prices.
Like I can buy a bottle.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
The whole sale people .
Okay, sorry to interrupt up.
Yeah, there's nothing.
People bitch about wine markups.
How much did that fuckingt-shirt you bought at Banana
Republic for 35 bucks cost to bemade like?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
rights it's.
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, or that cocktail that you just paid 18
bucks for how much do you thinkthat?
Costs to be made or a fuckingpint of beer.
Yeah, like we're okay.
But with wine, for some reason,people are always like I hate
it when people in the fuckingrestaurant and they look in the
wine list and they got thefucking wine searcher out and
they're like, oh well, theretail on this is $28.
You're charging me 56.
(02:28):
Yeah, it's cuz we, we have topay for this building and all
the other things happeningaround you, and like you're not
just putting you know bag andtake it home and drinking.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yes, also our 3-tier system that we have.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, which, yeah, don't get me started on that
bullshit.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a wine distribution people.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, we are still dealing with laws written
shortly after prohibition, soyeah.
That's bonkers.
Anyway, what was the questionagain?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
It was wine tasting oh.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I.
It is important when you'relearning wine, I think, to be
able to perceive things,understand tenant, understand
acid.
Yeah, that's those, thosethings that we talk about.
That our body.
It's really important,especially as a person in a
restaurant, to understand,because that's that's the things
(03:21):
you're gonna deal with whenyou're pairing food and wine.
There's the things that come tomind first.
It also is great if you try andlike figure out like what is
typical, what, what does cornustastes like?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
right.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So I think it's valuable, but I also think that
the spirit of it sometimes is alittle less generous, right?
I fucking hate it whensomeone's like hey, what's this?
Oh Christ, I know it's grosseskvaks, riesling from 2009.
I don't fucking whatever.
Yeah, because the parlor trickof it is it's again.
(03:57):
I've done the thing whereyou've been.
You're in an academic situation, right?
I almost just fucking braggedman.
I almost turned in thatdouchebag saying there was this
one time when I called it a 97insignia, fuck that guy, I was
almost that guy though, likebecause it feels fucking rad
when you nail it.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh, it does, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
You feel like, but it happens one out of every 50
times, not that often, yeah andI think that, again, that that
academic side of wine also cutsoff.
Like you know, there's some,there's some great expressions
of wine that Tasted blind.
I don't know if you really, ifyou really understanding the,
(04:39):
the, the spirit behind it.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
So yeah, my, my view on blind tasting has always been
education, education, education.
I'm here to learn and if I getit right, that means I am
Absorbing this informationcorrectly right.
And I've been a part of a lotof blind tasting groups I've had
.
First it was just me and myfriend and we watched the Psalm
(05:08):
one Documentary and we werefresh into wine.
They're just in a tasting room,right.
And then we're like, okay, thisis what we're gonna do every
week.
We're gonna blind each other.
You bring two bottles, I'llbring two bottles, and then we
have to drink them all here.
Just take home what you wantand then drink it throughout the
week, or whatever, or in acouple days, and then well,
that's just fine.
That's fun and that's how we gotstarted and then we started
(05:30):
understanding so much more, justbased on experience, because in
Santa Barbara we had some wineshops had a lot of international
wines and.
So it could be anything thatbring that he brings to your
table.
And then I was at a spot calledJaffers wine cellars in Santa
Barbara making wine there andthen there was a All everyone
(05:52):
there was green, like supergreen, and I was like, okay,
cool, well, let me share thispassion with you and maybe
you'll learn something.
And so I brought them to thetasting stuff and then they
didn't know shit about wine andthey're like I don't know, it
tastes like cherries or whatever.
And then you know, fast forward, six months later they're
getting.
They're hitting him like notvintage, because we would do the
(06:13):
whole vintage region greatvariety thing, and which is it's
a fun Standard to try and shootfor, it's a good target, but
you know you're not gonna hitthe bulls eye every time like
it's gonna be one out of like,if you're really good, one every
10 bottles or something likethat, yeah, and but those
(06:33):
bottles that you nail are Reallyspecific.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah and and and touchstone bottles.
Yes and that those are good toknow.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, and sometimes because you know the people,
because you've been with themright.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know like oh yeah , you kind of know their budget
is yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And so like there's this one, there's this one time
that they're blinding me onstuff.
And then I was like, okay, thisis.
I said the vintage, I was wrongon it, but it's a matter.
And I was like I think this isa you know old world in his own
area seems to be a blend, buthonestly I I could taste the
(07:11):
fruitiness from the granage, Icould taste the earth from the
Morved, the pepper from thesarah, and so like I think this
is a a wrong blend.
So I'm gonna say it's jigandas,because definitely not gonna be
shouting up to pop because hecan't afford that.
And I was right, but at the sametime that wasn't a full blind
tasting.
I knew the guy right.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I mean it was, it was brown-backed so when I do
tasting competitions formagazines like sip magazine or
the Great Northwest Invitational, we're judging wines blind and
I think that that context isImportant.
But then again, when you'rejudging, you're coming with
(07:55):
everything that you know aboutwine.
Yeah, and sometimes you're on apanel with people that have
different filters and Maybe youridea of quality is different
than their idea of quality.
So I mean, yeah, how do I geton the Jag?
I think that it's, it's the.
The.
The headspace of tasting blindis Is good, but you don't have
(08:15):
to be completely blind to beable to get into that headspace
and experience and extrapolatethe information out of the glass
.
Yeah, but yeah, there's,there's some people that are
really good at it.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, I mean when I moved to Shalane like the
tasting your bow is a part of.
It was fun.
It we'd bullshit a lot, talkshit to each other and it's fun
and light-hearted, totally right, right.
And when I did a Shalane thing,create a group there everyone
was so fucking serious andScared we were terrified.
(08:52):
Well, and I had some seasonedwinemakers there that have never
blind tasted before, and sothere's some ego there.
They're like, oh, I know wine,but like, oh shit, wine tasting
oh shit, this is new.
I have to be humble, in thesetting which I haven't known
nothing about something in along time, and so that was an
interesting experience.
(09:12):
Coming from like the fun,lighthearted bullshit to the
more, everyone was more seriousand I was trying to poke fun at
people to you know lighten it upa little bit, to lighten it up
and then some people really tookoffense to it and just like was
, and they just recoiled.
I was like, oh, okay, maybe myintentions here weren't clear.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
There's so much intimidation in the world wine,
though, like that's when thequarter masters first came to
Seattle to do testing at the WHotel back in February of 2002.
There was a bunch of us thatwere going to go take the test.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Because we were wine people.
Right, we were working at arestaurant and we were pulling
corks for a living.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But a lot of people dropped out last thing because,
like what, if you take that testand not passed, then then your,
your, your bona fides arefucking gone.
So I think blind tasting kindof feels like that too, like if
I can't call a wine today.
I don't know what the fuck I'mdoing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah.
And that's that has enough.
I mean it has doesn't reallyhave a lot to do with winemaking
.
I mean it has to do with yourpalate.
Well, a winemaker's tastingpalates completely different
than a sommelier's tastingpalates I do love tasting with
winemakers, because they knowflaws better than I do.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, it's crazy and I'm like I've not.
I can tell me what that is.
I've not.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, I have tasted with Charlie.
That makes he's a winemaker atCardis here where we're
recording right now.
I didn't make that clear whenwe started the Patreon episode.
And the co-owner of Cardis whenI've.
I taste with him very often andI learned something new every.
He's so nerdy Like we just didan episode with him a couple
(10:58):
episodes back and he is socurious and nerdy about
everything having to do withmaking the wine.
He can taste it and be like, um, yeah well, I just think they
they did this too early or thistoo late, or maybe you know,
whatever it is.
Yeah, and just like I don't knowhow you absolutely they do that
.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
There's a difference between driving a car and
building a car.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Like people with cars .
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, we drive them.
Yeah, it's a.
Yeah, I don't hit that.
There's so much science in inthe world of wine, like that.
Yeah, I think that some people,the people that don't
understand the science of wine,don't oftentimes make great wine
, right?
Um?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
yes, although, well, you can know the science and not
have a palate, and then right,and you also make shitty wine
because you don't know whatfaults are.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
But then again I, uh, I think a little flaw isn't bad
.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Right, that's an interesting conversation because
there is the idea of, like somepeople think, like a little bit
of Brett, add some complexity,it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Cindy Crawford's mole .
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
That's without that mole.
She's not Cindy Crawford.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
But she's beautiful because that mole, and so I have
had arguments with people thatare smarter than me.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
That's a great example.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
That, uh, if there's Brett in the wine, they're like
that's a flaw, brett's a flaw.
But I'm like, no, yeah, butit's a beautiful flaw, it's
delightful.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, Well, that's like that's a wine maker.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Or oxidation.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Saying that too.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Uh, I think oxidation is great in a wine, sometimes
enough of it, like a Chardonnaythat has a little bit of
oxidation, has that little bitof nuttiness is so great with
certain food applications Right.
Because, that that nuttinessbridges to things really nicely.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, but it oxidation is an interesting one,
because I do like the nuttiness, I know what you're saying.
But then there's a line whereit just becomes like bruised
yeah, a lapel, really quick.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
There definitely is a I I.
I have some bottles in theinventory that I'm saving for
the next time I teach flawedwines, because they're oxidized
and they're not pleasurableanymore.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Um I wish I could know.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I mean, everyone wishes us that drinks wine, I
think.
But like wish I knew when awine was corked before I pulled
the cork just for educationpurposes, cause there's so many
times where, like I don't knowwhat corked wine smells like,
I'm like well, we usually haveone at the restaurant.
Yeah, well, cause we pull corksout of so many bottles Each
(13:26):
night?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, and corks have gotten better, but it still
allows you way to plug up theneck of a bottle Like I.
I think it's the technologythat preceded the cork was an
oily rag shoved in with a thumb,so I don't know why we have a
problem.
And yes, cork farming is athing and like there's people
affected if we stop using cork,I get all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But it's, it's, it's, it's dumb.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I'd rather imagine, if, imagine, if the thing that
we, uh, we sealed our beers with, uh, created faults once every
hundred bottles of beer.
Be like fuck this thing, let's,let's use something else.
Yeah, but yeah, they've done alot.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I mean cork technology has come so far.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, like a lot yeah .
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Do you know about DM?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
corks.
Okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I did um.
Actually at the ShalandCarter's tasting room, DM came
there, did a whole presentation.
I was there for it.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
But I just want to so why?
But why are we going on allthese great lengths when you can
just put a fucking Stelvin onthat or a goddamn bottle cap or
a tetrapacker whatever we putwine in it's.
It's part of that, thataspirational fine wine marketing
thing.
It's like if it's not in a 750bottle with uh, with a cork in
it, I can't charge that much.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, but you're like well, I've had some great um
leader bottles from Italy with acork like with a screw cap on
it.
Yeah, no, it's you know thatare red wines.
No.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Uh, uh.
But again, because we have tosell wine, we have to adhere to
the traditions so that we canhave a larger audience.
Cause I think maybe I might bea little bit of in being the
minority as far as like beingokay with a wine being in a
fucking milk carton.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Well, that's another trend I was actually going to
talk to you about on theoriginal episode.
We didn't have time, for it Ispouches with the tap on it.
Yeah, because what ToddlessCreek?
They did a three liter box witha bag, and then the walls did
(15:33):
the same thing, and then AmosRome, they just they're coming
out with one in April, and sothe three liter rose.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I'm sure they'll sell the shit out of it.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
That's four bottles.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, why not?
You know, and the amount ofenergy it takes to transport
those bottles, or sorry, thatbox versus those bottles.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, box or the pouch or whatever it is.
It's, I think you're going tovote.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I think it's going to be really easy to get those
into people's refrigerators andhomes.
Yeah.
It's going to be hard to getthose in the restaurants, though
.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, Because.
Well, is it though?
No, because is there a?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I think that there's a legal thing.
No, it has nothing to do withlaw.
It has to do with people beinglike oh, you're pouring.
You're charging me 12 bucks forthat glass of wine You're
pouring out of a box.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Who the fuck are you guys Like that?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
We keep the box in the fridge.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, yes, it was white, but still like when we
buy cooking wine it's in afucking box and if we leave it
on the floor too long I getnervous because people are
walking by seeing fucking boxwine in the restaurant, so I got
, yeah, yeah.
Rule number one box wine goesright in the kitchen.
Don't let people see that shit,Because you know, I think that I
(16:42):
I there's going to be somebodyclever enough to open like a
wine bar where it's just boxwine and it's going to be the
kind of wine bar where you'redrinking out of maybe a red solo
cup and everybody's got dogsand we're just hanging out Like,
yeah, there's a.
I could see the potential ofthat kind of wine bar where it
(17:02):
feels more like a brewery.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, yeah, more of like a brewery style.
I totally get that, or do you?
Um, how do you feel aboutglassware and presentation?
Is it important to you kind ofgoing off the red solo cup thing
?
Yeah, because to me, like Idon't know, maybe I'm a snob or
crazy but like I love doing thisshit, yeah you know, we, we do
(17:27):
love.
It's also a take of my net atthis point.
It's just something I do Iswirl, whatever I'm drinking,
even if it's like a glass ofwater.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I'm swirling that shit.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, I've swirled lots of beer.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think, uh.
So at home I have a lot ofdifferent glassware.
Uh, some of it is that plasticGovino, fucking Stanley shit.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Cause I just tossed in the washing machine and not
think about it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
It's a little easier.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Um, I think that it kind of depends on the venue,
yeah, like in a restaurant.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So it's more of a setting thing for you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Really is Cause I, you know, we, we have different
glassware in differentrestaurants.
The Mcton restaurants, um, someof them don't have somewhere,
but I think it's okay, Cause I'mI mean the burrito drinking a
Baja Saviano Blanc.
So I'm fine, drinking it out ofthat.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Um, but I think that there maybe is a little too much
, like I've done, the seminarswhere you taste different
liquids out of differentglassware and, yeah, there's a
difference, but it's notenormous, and so we basically
have three glasses a sparklingwine glass, which isn't a flute,
(18:45):
it's more like a uh no, it's,it's more like a I think uh, I
think the the term, I think it'scalled the Prosecco glass
reedle makes it uh, but it itjust has a wider mouth and
allows you to get more airmatics.
And then we have burgundyglasses and we have just sort of
classic Bordeaux style glasses.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And people on this podcast know how I feel about
champagne foods.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
The garbage.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I just don't like them.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh good, Like I.
Just we're not going to fighttoday.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
If you're going to pour me bubbles, put it in a
white wine glass.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, yeah, don't, don't mess around.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Um or any any glass.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Any glass will be fine, you know that's not a
champagne flute.
No, um, it's that's like.
I feel like there's a leftoverfrom the 80s.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, I mean it depends, like, like you were
saying earlier, your situationand the environment for sure.
Like, if I'm having thischampagne for the first time, I
don't want it in a champagne flu, I want it in a white wine
glass so I can taste everything.
Single thing, yeah, we but ifI've had this wine for a million
times and we're cheersing to awedding or like whatever, I
(19:50):
don't give a shit about theglassware.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Well, if you most wedding wines, not giving me
shit about that anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Bad example, but uh, you know,if I've had this bottle for you
know a long time.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, I've been not drinking for evaluation.
But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, I think flutes are not evaluating the wine,
then?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Think flute sales are down in general.
Yeah, you think so.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Oh yeah that I don't see them much anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I guess I don't go to these places, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, I'm seeing more like the modern sleek, upright
geometric kind of.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Again, there's so much fashion in wine and
glassware, like it's a business,like if you made a glass that
was perfect and never broke, youwouldn't have a business, so
they make them just fragileenough to.
I mean, if I had a tally of allthe glassware broken over the
(20:46):
last 35 years in restaurants, itwould be quite a tally, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, I've broken a lot of shit.
I feel like I feel like realowes me some money for all the
destruction that I've caused.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, we.
The amount of money we spend onglassware for the restaurants
every year is pretty, prettysteep at the end.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
It's made of glass.
Yeah, same time Get a break.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Speaking of which, my girlfriend knows me a lot of
wine glasses.
She always fucking breaks them.
Well again, they're fragile.
I need to have a spot where shecan't bump into them or touch
them Got it All right when I canjust wash them and put them
away.
Yeah, a lot of the problems isI don't put them away the same
(21:34):
time I.
I leave them there for a coupleof days, just upside down on
the on the rack or whatever, andthen she ends up hitting it or
something like that.
I'm going to blame you for this.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
It's all.
It's all on you, man.
It's it's all on me.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
It's all on me, man.
That's good relationship advice.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, it's always going to be you.
It is the truth.
Well, you're married, so thatmakes sense yeah, yeah, no it's,
I can't wait till women justtake over, right, yeah, we've
been fucking it up for centuries.
Totally, yeah, I just want tobe a stay at home dad.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, that doesn't sound that bad.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Mine's, mine's in high school now, so I that
should be sale you should besale.
Yeah, how old is?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
uh, he's going to be 15 in May.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Oh, 15.
Yeah, I was a real shithead in15.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
We looked out.
Yeah, we, we got a good one.
Oh good, yeah, Um he's he'sjust maybe, maybe he's smarter
than me.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Maybe that's the thing.
Yeah, did you take after hishis, his, his, his, his, his,
his, his, his, his, his?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
his, his, his dad or his mom More.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
He's got his mom's brains.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, from here up, it's all her, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
That's a great response.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's the only response that checks out.
It's the only response Exactlyit sure is so I forgot to tell
you this story.
The first bottle wine I everconsumed was in Shalant it was.
It was at the top of No-SeamRoad by the golf course there,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was sitting on the hood of mydad's Caprice Classic.
It was two-tone brown.
(23:07):
You know, oh cool With mycousin Stacy, it was a bottle of
San Michel Giverts from herethat we took the car key and
like shoved the cork inside thebottle and downed it.
So like Shalant's got definitelya place in my heart.
We used to go there everyMemorial Day and I love it.
Week in August and aftercollege there was a place called
(23:29):
Dale's Tavern that me and somebuddies used to roll up into,
and we were in a band andBartender Michael was an old
musician.
He wasn't old, but he was amusician.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Oh, okay, he had all the gear.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
We used to go to Dale's and play Dale's, so yeah,
I've had a lot of good times inShalant over the years.
Dale's where's it's gone now?
It was on the right hand sideup from I mean.
It was Senior Frog still there.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's keep going down the street toward the Apple Cup.
Uh-huh, it was on the righthand side.
Yeah, okay, I don't know what'sthere now.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Cool, All you Shalant locals if you listen to this
there you go.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Remember Dale's man, remember Dale's Michael the
bartender, michael the bartenderat Dale's yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
If you're still around.
It was super fun.
Yeah Well, that's so cool.
What year was that?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
That was the late 90s , early zeros.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
We weren't a very good band.
We weren't great.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I mean, I was in a band as well.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, we were terrible and we didn't have a
lot of material either.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, what kind of band Like?
What was your influences foryour band?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, you know, this was the 90s, uh-huh and, but we
were acoustic.
So I don't know if you, I don'tknow if you could really draw a
lot of lines between.
I mean, we really loved the uh,the Jarrah flies out from
Alison Shane's like that kind ofvibe.
Yeah, uh, it was a little bitof that.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
But also we.
We had a little.
Uh, I had a finger pickingstyle too, so there's a little
bluesy folks in there too, ohnice.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So you were actually kind of decent, I was okay, I
was okay, I was okay.
I was like oh, I'm so good, I'mso good, I'm so good, I'm just
good, I'm just good.
And I'm, I was kind of like oh,what a great musician.
Not as a band, though, Like asa musician, I still play.
It's a great way to relax.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, yeah it's a, but I still play a little bit
too.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I only play like country music or whatever, but
um which is completely oppositeof what I usually listen to.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, I grew up on country music.
My dad was from the hills ofWest Virginia, so that was
always in the car when I was inAlabama.
Roll type.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I grew up on rapping hip hop mostly a lot of like
underground Seattle rappers,blue scholars like Common.
Market and of course, I gotintroduced to Tupac when I was
10 years old so, yeah, yeah,that's the only story you have
to tell.
That's great.
Yeah, that started me.
And then, well, yeah, it waspretty awesome.
But then I got in the countrylike in high school, because my
(26:05):
next-door neighbor across streetfrom me she used to burn me CDs
and bring it over to my house,give me some country stuff that
she would listen to.
Introduce me to Brad Paisleyyou know, and so I was like okay
, I can appreciate this.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Burning CDs man.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
It was, yeah, giving your giving your computer aids?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
yeah is awesome, yeah just for a few songs you know
Lime Wire Napster, remember thatshit.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Oh yeah, now Spotify yeah hey, he figured it out.
Yeah, sean Parker, I think hisname is Crid Napster was
completely illegal.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
But it was had a good run.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
He got shut down and then he created Spotify and then
sold it and he's probablysitting somewhere tropical right
now enjoying life.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Probably hanging out in Palo Alto, all the other tech
dudes.
Yeah, it's an interesting partof the world Enjoying some wine.
I mean so when you're onvacation.
I guess it really depends onwhere you're going, but are you
drinking wine or?
Yeah or drinking othercocktails.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, I think that a lot of our travel is to wine
growing regions.
This year we did Germany,alsace, switzerland, austria.
We also spent some time inTuscany, and but what I do when
I'm there is I don't ask foranything that I've had before,
(27:35):
like because I know that there'sthere's all sorts of wines
everywhere in the wine growingworld that I'll never get chance
to have living here inWashington, so I just you mean
like grape varieties, differentblends or different producers?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, I've never heard of them before.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, and also, yeah, totally grape varieties as well
.
Yeah, it's just love going to awine shop and when you find the
right person and explain like,give me some shit that I can't
get anywhere else, that's,that's what I love to do, yeah,
and I don't.
And then I don't fill mysuitcase with either, because it
just won't taste the same.
Back here I think theexperience.
(28:11):
There's something about takingwine from its source.
Sometimes it's just not thesame.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Do you believe in like, like spiritual, like realm
things when it comes to wine,and not just wine, but other
things?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I think that I don't want to live in a world that
doesn't have some magic.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So here's a wine related magic story.
I was doing a biodynamicseminar down in Napa Valley in
like 2012.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
A biodynamics seminar ?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, it was a weekend like a biodynamic
weekend, where they teach youhow to do compost teas and all
that stuff yeah and the.
The winemaker Rudy was tellinga story about when he first
started at the winery and he didnot believe in biodynamics.
He thought it was fuckingbullshit.
Yeah, if you just read about it, yeah, it sounds a little bit
Voodoo-y.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Like sure, the moon cycles when you're racking off
full moon.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, you can't taste my wine today.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
It's not a fruit day, like what, but yeah, that
extreme with wine sales is kindof weird.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, he was.
He was talking about the, thevineyard manager who'd been
there for years.
Just one day he says, oh, it'sgonna be a really wet winter.
And he's like what?
He's like, yeah, look what thetrees are doing, they're
dropping all, all their pinecones, or sorry, they're not
dropping their pine cones.
And he's like, wow, that'sweird.
And then that was a really wetwinter.
And then, and then the nextyear he's like looking to see
(29:39):
what the trees are doing.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And so there's his name was Rudy yeah from where.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I was Ellers winery.
Back there's a state in Napa.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, oh shit, awesome, they listen to this
podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Okay, yeah, my wife was just down there doing the
doing a tasting with her bestfriend Becky last oh, that's so
cool.
I love the wine, so not inthey're not available right now
in Washington, which is a shame.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
But yeah, they invited me to come down there
and do a podcast with theiry-maker, so yeah, I don't think
he's there anymore.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I think I gotta do it different, different crew.
Yeah, it's been, it's been,it's been a decade plus.
Okay, yeah, but this year,walking around walking the dog
to the neighborhood, I noticedthat like, oh, the trees are
dumping all, all their seeds andthat's because it was that fall
(30:33):
was really dry, and so if aplant knows that it's only gonna
get so much resources to getthose seeds ripe, to propagate
they'll, they'll do their owngreen harvesting right rid of
everything yeah so it's it'skind of fasting, like there
there's something I and I, youknow, with the gun in my head.
Yeah, maybe it's not true, but II'd rather there be some magic,
(30:58):
right.
I think, yeah, you know it'smagical when you taste the wine
that and you, you aretransported that place that came
from.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
That's fucking magical yeah, my friend Jessica
Gaska.
She's a owner wine maker forown label called story of soil
in Santa Barbara.
She sources pretty much all ofher fruit from the Santa Rita
Hills area from biodynamic andorganic and sustainable wineries
.
But she follows the biodynamicway of making wine and so she
does follow the moon cycles.
(31:28):
No, I am.
I don't know what it is aboutit because I don't have enough
information.
I don't have enough knowledge ofbiodynamics or the moon phases
to actually talk about it withany sort of education, but she
exemplifies it.
Her wines are fuckingphenomenal and there has to be
(31:52):
something to it.
I don't know.
There have been some days.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So when I'm tasting a lot of wines in a day, some
days I fucking don't.
Nothing is worth what they'reasking for.
Like the prices are all wrong.
But then there's some dayswhere everything tastes fucking
delicious and if you look at theBiodinamic Calendar and it says
it's a fruit, they are likefuck.
(32:15):
Yep, yep well, maybe there'ssomething to it, but I don't
know.
Well, fermentation is kind ofmagical.
Yeah, we understand yeastconsumes sugar and create, but
the flavors that yeast create,that's magic.
Like I don't understand thatthat different yeast produce
(32:35):
different flavors really.
So what?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting Because the way I
learned was low interventionwhile I'm making, and so we did
a lot of native ferments when Iwas learning and that was the
first, second and third winery Iworked for that they're doing
native stuff not all native, butmostly native and then I come
(33:00):
to an area that doesn'tnecessarily have that same
mindset or culture involved andI think native is bullshit and
it's like oh, I've never hadthis sort of friction before
when talking about nativeferments, because I don't know
how.
I don't know how you feel aboutpoints or whatever, but when I
(33:22):
was doing a native ferment withX, y and Z or Jaffers, we would
regularly get like 99 pointsfrom Jabdonic, which is great.
We were always searching forthat 100 mark, but and that was
a regular thing at least likethree years in a row.
And then I come to a differentplace where they're doing a lot
(33:44):
more manipulation and not makingthe same quality and there's
also a lot of differentvariables within that too,
terroir is a thing like you knowwhere you grow grapes, how you
farm it, when you pick it, youknow everything.
(34:04):
But at the same time, like well,these people have kind of
archaic tools, like they haven'tbought any new equipment in
like 10 fucking years andthey're making some kick-ass
shit.
And then you're wanting to buylike everything and you're not,
and so it's like Better winethrough technology sometimes is
not true.
(34:25):
Yeah, I don't think qualitywine stems from technology.
I don't think that's a thing,but it does help In certain
cases, like you can't rely ontechnology to make the wine for
you.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
No, although there are some wineries that just make
wine by recipe, so you know yes.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Those oscillating, oscillating sorting machines are
crazy.
Have you heard about those?
So, basically, it's a newtechnology, well new within the
last five years or so.
So Oshonasy and Napa, they havethis.
They have two or three of thesesorting machines because
(35:10):
they're crazy.
So you, there's like an iPad,essentially on the sorting
machine, and then you tell itwhich grapes you want, Like
these are the ones I want tokeep Ones that look like this
keep this.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So it's like an optical sorter on steroids.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Exactly, and it has a little laser, it goes through,
has a little puff of air.
Everything that's not up tothat standard gets puffed out.
It's like what the fuck?
It's crazy.
I mean it's so fuckingexpensive.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
They're hell mountains.
That's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
It's like buying a house for three houses, cause
they have three of them.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I think it's great that we can live in a world
where that technology can createa very specific experience
where another wine maker will belike whole cluster.
That's the way to make wineRight, like there's so many
different avenues to go down.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, there's also stylistic yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
But I think that a lot of winemakers, if you ask
them, what do you do today?
Any wine maker that's beendoing it for a couple decades,
like, do you make wine the sameway you did a decade ago?
They'll be no, everything'sdifferent.
Oh, yeah, it's.
We're still learning, yeah.
And I think that I mean when Ithink about the quality of wine
(36:31):
in the Northwest over the last20 years, like it's changed that
fuck ton.
Yeah, there's a lot of goodfucking wine out there.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
There is and I'm here for it.
Yeah, it's quite a right.
I love it.
Does make it difficult.
It's harder to make a list.
Harder to make a list.
It is harder Because you'relike.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I want to add this I want to add this it is and
because you can't buyeverybody's wine.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, does it break your heart sometimes.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
It does because there's some winemakers who are
making great stuff.
But the business of buying wineisn't just getting the things
you want.
It's part of its continuity,part of its price, part of its
what does the restaurant need?
Like, when I taste with people,I never tell them what I think,
(37:17):
because it doesn't fuckingmatter what I think.
It's what the restaurant needs.
And so I try to take myself outof the equation as much as
possible, because I can fall inlove with the wine but it might
not end up on the wine list.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Right, because it's not about you.
It's about the customer andit's about the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
And I don't want to ever have people look at my
wines and go, oh, that'sdefinitely a Chris Warren wine
list, because I don't want tohave my hand in that in such a
way that it becomes obvious.
I think good wine list is likehaving every kind of music that
you can think of in the sameplace and so that when somebody
(37:56):
comes in and wants some countrymusic, I've got a bottle of it
and it's priced correctly and itsounds great.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, and you got a bottle of ace of spades sitting
in the back in the fridge too.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
For the people that want to spend money.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Spend money yeah nope .
That's Jay-Z's label.
Yeah, oh well, when they were.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Well, he's part owner .
Yeah, Full owner.
We've had a lot of celebs comein over the years, and so when
he was in town with Beyonce, wemade sure that we got some doose
cognac.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
There you go.
Just in case they came in, justin case, because you don't want
you got to have it, becausewhat happens if Jay-Z asks for?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
his cognac and you're like, oh, I don't have it.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
You got to have it for a hove in the queen man,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Don't be a dick, but sadly no yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
I forgot to do this for the main episode, but can
you plug?
I'll put it in as well.
Plug anything you need to plugor want to.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Oh, I mean, I think that I'm not really good at
self-promotion.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
OK, never have been.
I'm not selling anything either.
Maybe restaurant promotion.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
I mean, people can come to a cafe in Seattle or
Woodinville, but we have avariety of great restaurants.
We have some great Mexicanrestaurants, we have a lovely
sort of American Italian conceptand then we have a really
amazing sort of plant forwardrestaurant called Liv Bud that
(39:31):
is some of the best food that wemake and Chef Sarah is fierce
and the wine that makes thingsit does skew toward the natural
side of things.
Yeah, so it's just hard to find,because all the construction on
the road in front of the placeis making it hard to get there.
It's crazy, but that will fadein time it will, which is good,
(39:52):
but yeah, I think we're justgoing to keep trying, because in
the restaurant business, if youdon't keep evolving and keep
trying, you will die.
So I think, we've done a prettygood job.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
You've got to be a chameleon.
Yeah, got to adapt.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And yeah, for the thing that I said would never
work.
It's been 18 years, yeah.
There, you go, it's never goingto work.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I'm still here.
I'm still here, here we go.
It's working.
It's working Well.
Thank you, Chris, for coming onthe podcast Appreciate it.
Jabroni Gang.
Thank you guys for your support.
I hope you love this episode.
Yeah, Thank you, man.
Cheers Bye.
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