#20 Andre Mack: Redefining the Wine Narrative with Maison Noir Wines

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
bung pod.
Welcome back, wine wonder boy.
And we got jazzy jay.
Jazzy.
What is a bone?
The hole of the barrel iscalled a bung hole.
Inside the bung hole is calleda bung wine with mayhem.
That's what it's about.
All right, welcome back to thebung pod.

(00:22):
It's your boy, your boy, ianKing, aka Wine Wonder Boy, and I
got my co-host with me, jazzy J.
Say what's up?
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media platforms and catch thevisual podcast on YouTube at

(00:45):
OfficialBungPod as well.
So we have an awesome guesttoday.
I'm very excited.
He's a huge influence in myearly on wine career.
I used to listen to podcastswith him on it constantly when I
was just learning.
He is a sommelier, oregonwinemaker, merch creator.
I'm rocking it right now bonethugs and burgundy.

(01:06):
Um.
He's an author 99 bottlesyoutube, bon appetit world of
wine host, which now wentinternational, which is amazing.
Owner and founder of and son'shospitality group, and his wine
lists are listed on the wallstreet journal, huffington post,
black Enterprise.
And he's also just a badassmotherfucker.
Please welcome, andre Mack.

(01:28):
Hey.
Andre hey what's going on, guys?
Yeah, let me put the air hornsin post.
Thanks for joining us, man.
You've been gracious enough tosend us a bottle of the new noir
.
Yeah, yeah, so I've beenfollowing your career for a

(01:52):
while.
You have maison noir, um, which, and it was, was it previously
a muton noir as well, or?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
yeah, so I started a company in 2007.
And so you know, mouton Noirwas kind of like a nickname that
I was given when I came to NewYork.
You know, just all playful in away.
You know I considered myselfthe black sheep within the four
walls of the restaurant.
You know, I was probably one ofthe few people who had worked at

(02:25):
the French Laundry and came toNew York to work at Per Se.
So I think there were a lot ofNew Yorkers that came to, they
came and they came and trainedthere, but you know they didn't
work there and so you know, forme it was just like you know, I
just did things my way withinthose four walls and you know it

(02:50):
was a black sheep.
And then, you know, lookingmacro, like you know it was a
black sheep.
And then, and then you know,looking macro, like you know,
there's not a lot of people thatdo what I do, that look like me
, and so for me it was all aboutjust leaning into that Right
and so like talk to me, that's agreat question.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Is this the Mouton in your book?
You had nicknames and youeventually gave your staff
nicknames as well.
Is that what?
That was, mouton right?

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, so there was a name and so it's funny because
you know we do a pre-shiftmeeting at the beginning of each
shift and you know I'll talkabout wines and you know wines
and styles and highlightproducers, and we were talking
about Robert Bialy, which is aCalifornia producer that makes
Syrah, and this particular I'msorry Zinfandel, and this
particular Zinfandel wasactually called the black

(03:27):
chicken and it was kind of anhomage to during prohibition
time, when people would come tothe farm and buy stuff and then
they would say, let me get ablack chicken, which that was
like they get them booze wine,and so that was kind of that
started the whole kind of jokeand everybody was like, oh, they

(03:47):
used to be called the blackchicken and everybody's trying
to make up names like hell, no.
And then, you know, people camearound and well, we should call
you black sheep, and then, andthen I was, and then someone
said, oh and so and I was like,oh, okay, like you know, I was
like I was like, okay, and thenI designed the logo that's on
the back, yeah, on that.
But I designed the logo thatwas my screensaver and so and
that was that was it, and then Ijust joked.
You know, all the time, like Ijust talked about, like that

(04:08):
t-shirt, like bone thugs andlike all of that happened at
work, you know, you know thecandy, you know you know a
magnum, you know it costs$45,000.
Right.
And I was always like, oh, I'mgonna make this one, I'm gonna
do this, I'm gonna do hell, yeah, um.

(04:31):
But lo and behold, what happensis that you realize is that you
know, in the real world, whenyou're grown up, you know the
liquor business is prettylitigious, right.
So next thing, you know, I'mgetting sued by mouton
rothschild.
I'm in this legal battle wherethey serve me Back and forth I
mean it was almost.
I mean six years, five years,something like that and what

(04:52):
surprises that only theattorneys get paid.
And this is this stupid like.
And when you really understandthe game, it's big bank to take
little bank, right, like theyhave so much money that they
would just bleed me dry, andmuch money that they would just
bleed me dry.
And so I was like, fuck it,I'll just change the name, but
I'm not signing any paperworkbecause they try to do that to
set precedent, right.
So they're like, oh, weprotected our trademark, we set
precedent.
And I was like I'm not doingthat.

(05:12):
And so I just changed the nameand we just kind of moved on and
so now it's called mason noirwines, and it's so funny because
a lot of my distributors theyprotest and they still have it
listed as as Mouton Noir.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Mouton, yeah, yeah so you know.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
So it had that thing, but you know it was a nickname
that I just kind of ran with andand it's that thing that, like,
I feel like we have all feltlike black sheeps out, you know,
misfits, outcasts, all of thosethings, like like we've never,
like we didn't fit in.
And for me, I, you know, I tellpeople like you should lean
into that and embrace that Right, because that's that's what

(05:49):
makes us all different,especially in a, in a world
where everybody is conforming,everybody is the same.
You know, it's that wholesaying is like they laugh at me
because I'm different and Ilaugh at them because they're
all the same.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
And that for me was like do you, and that's going to
set you apart in the world?
And that's kind of the approachthat I took with wine and like
when you name you know I didn'tname my wine Chateau, andre Mac
or some bullshit like that Right, because to me it's like what
the fuck does that mean toanybody?

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it doesn't mean anything.
And so for me, it was like,okay, like it gave me creative
license to do things differently, right, and so that was it.
You know, so, by naming a wine,love drunk, that sparks some
type of emotion or thoughtprocess or filling, and someone,
and that's what wine is about.
It's an, it's an emotionalthing, and so that's to me.

(06:42):
That's why I was like, oh, soI'll just name them, these names
and things that like meansomething to me or could mean
anything to anybody else, and tome, that's what made wine fun.
Um, you know, and that wasalways been the mission for me
was like how to make wine, youknow, accessible to like to
everyone, and even like in thosefour walls of the restaurant,
like you think about, it's like2004, we're at the number one,

(07:05):
so number one restaurant in thewine.
I'm doing a pre-shift meetingand I describe a wine as bang it
.
It's like this wine is bangPeople.
The staff is looking aroundlike can he say that?
Right, I'm not talking.
Everybody's looking around likewho the fuck says that?
Who's this guy?
Right, and that was it.

(07:27):
And I think for me, it made me,you know, relatable to the
staff.
It made wine really the way tobe able to talk about it in a
way that wasn't nostalgic andwasn't wasn't funny and
obviously, obviously I couldtalk about wine at many
different levels.
Right, you know, you know thewall street guy that comes in
and wants to do the fucking.
You know the wine smackdown.
Right, I could do that.
Yeah, yeah, totally yeah, butideally, you know, for me it was
always about trying to meetpeople where they were at and

(07:49):
explain wine that way and reallywanting you know, just like.
It's just grape juice, likelike, and when I say that it's
not like disrespectful, it'slike, you know, simplifying it
but still having respect for it,right yeah, that's why I'm not
a blender, right, right, youknow what I mean.
Like, you know what I mean, likeit's like those kinds of things
, and that's that's kind of howit started.

(08:10):
I don't even know what we'retalking about.
You just got me, you asked me.
I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Well, I had a question because of I mean, you
are a huge influence in the wineindustry.
You do so much.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
How the fuck do you keep doing all this stuff?

Speaker 1 (08:29):
you know what's your schedule like how do you have
peace of mind?

Speaker 2 (08:32):
you gotta delegate, right, you know, and and I say
that with ease, but I have totell you that you know I had to
pay somebody and lay on theirsofa to work that shit out,
right, because for me it waslike if I had to tell you twice
I might as well do it myself.
And and I was that person.
You know I move, I would likemove 200 cases like before and
then go to service, right.
So it was just one of thosethings where I realized that you

(08:54):
can have it all.
I think a lot of people don'tthink that you can have it all,
but you have to manage it all.
You can have it all.
You don't have to manage it all.
Yeah, totally so, like you know,so for me, you know our
restaurant group, we have adirector of operations right, I
talked to one person, as youknow what I mean.
It's being able to to manage itall and we all have the same 24
hours and it's just like whereyou want to dedicate yourself.

(09:16):
You know, um, I don't do anyvictory laps.
You know it's really hard forme, I don't smell.
I don't celebrate smallvictories.
I don't small.
I don't celebrate any victories.
I don't know it's really hardfor me, I don't smell it.
I don't celebrate smallvictories, I don't smell.
I don't celebrate any victories?
I don't know.
It's just, let's keep going.
Somebody asked me to dosomething.
I was like shit, you shouldhave asked me two years ago.
Let's do it.
Let's check it.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, exactly, totally.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, like, and I think for like, for some like.
So people just see this part ofmy life, but you know I can
remember, you know, working at arestaurant and like life was
going nowhere fast.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, right I remember those days.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
you know I used to put cocktail sauce on plates at
Red Lobster.
Yeah Right, you know what Imean.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
Starting from the bottom.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, and I remember, just like you know, going out
with the waiters know me realizelike, well, shit, I'm just as
smart as they are like I had towait tables and you know they
were like, wow, like every nightyou're on your hands and knees
and you're cleaning the wall andthe trays and I was like, yeah,
because I want to experienceevery single moment of that,
never fucking doing it again butyou can say you've done it

(10:21):
right and by doing it, I wouldnever I know how long it takes
and I would never ask anybodysomething I won't like.
you know, I'm walking down thestreet.
I'm like yo yo, yo man, we'regoing to catch this motherfucker
who doesn't clean up aftertheir dog.
Well, I'm gonna go get a bag,one of you go get like a bucket,
yeah, any of that.

(10:45):
And I think just for me, it'sjust like you know, we just you
know.
I just realized like like we'renot here forever and it's like
let's just go and, yeah, this iswhat I want to be doing, like I
don't I there's no joy for mesitting on a beach at all yeah,
right, my wife's miserable, likewhy don't you go back to the
hotel, right?
You know, I got sand in my assand I can't see my.
You know what I?

Speaker 3 (11:03):
mean, yeah, I feel you you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
So, so for me, like it's just, it's just one of
those things, and, like you know, I I've dreamt about it, but I
thought about it.
You know, a lot of the ideasthat I'm fortunate enough to
present today are just sameideas that I had in 2004 yeah
right, you know, I look back atsome of the labels.
I designed those labels in 2008,and we just used them for a

(11:27):
project in 2020.
And so, yeah, so, just for me,it's just one of those things.
It's like this is it and youknow there's a lot of that kind
of shit Like so, like I, Iwanted to play basketball at,
you know, for a living.
I wanted to be in the NBA, andso I worked hard, thought I
worked hard, um, and you know,for me, potential is a bad word,

(11:53):
like when I hear that it's likeyou could be good.
But you're not good enough, likeright now.
And I wasn't good enough.
You know, I played a littlecollege and I realized that and
I kind of let that go and Ialways said, like if I was ever
good at something else, I wouldnever, ever let it go, I would
squeeze the life out of it.
Hell yeah, and lo and behold,like this wine thing comes along
.
By watching old episodes offraser and I see that there's,

(12:16):
there's something to it and thatwas it.
And then you dig in.
You're like well, wait a minute.
Like there's a competition forthis shit, like yeah, like, and
like well, like it's like, holdon, I get to wear like suits
like you know, expensive suitseyes and carry mouth watches all
that shit and I was like hereand like and you know that was
it.
You know my mom was always likewell, baby, you work in a

(12:37):
restaurant, you're supposed togo home hungry.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
So it's like way to like eat and drink above your
pay grade.
But also I realized that youknow that it could really be
this career for me and that wasit.
And, like you know, one thingleads to the next thing and it
leads to the next thing and, youknow, showing up is 80% of it.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah, the wine world is crazy.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, you can move pretty fast.
And that was that was it.
You know, even the restaurantit was just.
Like.
You know, I read a magazine oneday.
I saw these three people inthis, in this article, and I
picked up the phone and calledall of them and I was like, hey,
somebody worked at CharlieTrotter.
I was like, hey, man, I wouldlove to come and stage with you
guys and they.
You know, that's something thatthey normally do in the kitchen
but they normally don't do inthe front of the house.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
And so I told them I called Virginia Phillips but she
didn't answer.
And then I called the onlymaster sommelier in the state of
Texas, scottie Paul Roberts,and like I got to meet like this
wild, like pulled up, andthey're like, oh, meet me in the
back.
You know, he didn't even call.
I never spoke to him.

(13:47):
It was like, okay, I got youand show up, thursday four
o'clock, back door I was likeall right, let's show up.
I don't know what to expect andI just remember we're walking
down the stairs.
This is a thursday, he said onmonday.
Sorry, I couldn't get back toyou.
On monday I accepted the job tobe the wine director for all
the thomas keller's propertiesthat's crazy you're the wine
director for thomas keller's allof his properties.
So yeah, he was so, he.

(14:07):
So there was a position thatdidn't exist.
They were expanding, uh, and hebecame this thing and he was in
texas, I was living in sanantonio, he was in houston, and
I just remember walking down thestairs and him telling me that,
and then we were talking.
He's like hey, who, like youknow, tell me about yourself,
kid, kid, right, we're drinkingan espresso.
Then, I think, a sales rep cameand now, all of a sudden, we're

(14:28):
drinking margaritas out ofPinot Noir glasses, right.
And then he's like hey, man,it's time to work the floor.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
So then I get up and he's like no, bring your
margarita with you.
And and, uh, and I worked thefloor and you know I had, you
know I, it's easy, I just hadn'tlearned the table number.
So I knew, and I, you know, Iwas familiar with some of the
things on the list.
And at the end of the nighthe's like, hey, kid, I like you.
Um, I have to hire sixsommeliers.
Do you want to come to thefrench laundry?

(14:58):
and I was like fuck yeah that'scrazy to tell you the truth, I'm
out like before.
I got out of the car we pull upin the back and I was like this
is stupid.
Really, I don't want to go.
Yeah, I didn't want to go in.
I had cold feet.
I was like this is so dumb, Idon't want to do this.
This is like blah blah, blah,blah blah and just look at you
now right, just by showing up.

(15:19):
Things happen, yeah, when you do, and that's that's how I built
a company.
That's all.
Of that is just showing upthat's crazy.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Wow.
So you big news you just wentinternational um with bon
appetit.
So I'd like to understand,because you don't exactly
foretit.
It's a magazine, right?

Speaker 2 (15:44):
And you contract with them yeah, so they're a
magazine and magazines as theyget out in the content world.
They were a really shiningexample of how a magazine
created this huge community andand basically it was the test

(16:06):
kitchen, so where they weretesting recipes and all that.
They turned the cameras ontheir employees okay and it was
this huge thing, uh.
And so they big followingwhatever.
And then during the pen,outright, yeah, during the
pandemic, they were looking toexpand and, like wine wasn't a
thing that most people wouldtell you didn't think that would
work on on those platforms,right.

(16:28):
So they reached out to me and,um, I was like all right, you
know maybe.
So you know, you know, my thingis like take the meeting.
You know, I took the meetingand then it got like somebody.
I just just felt kind of lame.
I was like I'm not doing thatshit, I don't want to do that, I
don't want to do that, and Ijust remember they're do that.
And I just remember they're likedo you like?
They're like, well, what aboutjust like, reviewing wines under
15 bucks?
And before I could saysomething, someone was like do

(16:49):
you even drink wine under 15bucks?
It's like, of course I do.
And then, and then I was like Iwas just kind of on the fence
and then I was like hey, can Iuse emojis?
And they were like yeah, and Iwas like sign me up.
And that was it.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Hell yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Use emojis in my book and the publisher was like, nah
, they, they, they just, it wasjust so funny.
They made it like so difficultor whatever.
And I just remember talking tothe editor Maybe she's listening
.
She says, well, you know, andre, like where's, where's the?
You know, you have a video game, you have this, you have like,

(17:29):
have all this, you know thisstuff.
And, like you know, I guesssomehow she was bored with the
book and I just said, well, Igave you the million dollar idea
.
It was emoji.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
You didn't think it was right.
But there we go, there it isRight.
Yeah, yeah, it was the milliondollar idea, and so we didn't.
We didn't end up using it inthat.
And then when, uh, when bonappetit was like hey, you know
you can, you know you could usethis, you know you can use them,
I was like okay, because wine,like you, when you start to
think about wine, is naturallyabout a feeling yeah, right,

(18:00):
it's like the way that wecommunicate.
It's, it's, it's a vibe right.
It's like how way that wecommunicate it's a vibe right.
It's like how it makes you feel, I think is an easier way to
explain to new people who cometo wine and so that's, you know.
It's like, well, how do theycommunicate with each other?
So let me communicate with themthat way.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
So you've been doing a lot of seminars recently and I
believe, if I'm followingcorrectly, that you've been
doing a lot of seminars recentlyand I believe, if I'm following
correctly, that you've beendoing a lot of talk on like
branding and marketing Somewhat.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, so you know it's interesting.
So like graphic design, like Ididn't know, it was this love
for me, right.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
It's just so funny.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
So at Per Se we do a pre-shift meeting and like, so
the chef has the menu, uh, andthen the front of the house, so
the maitre d, you know they list, like you know, talking points
or whatever, and then the winedepartment had the back of that
page, so we had one full sheetand I would spend probably about
30 or 45 minutes doing pageoutlay on on microsoft word,
right, because I didn't know howto use anything else, and so it

(19:04):
had graphics and all kinds ofstuff.
And I just remember someonesaying, wow, like did you go to
school for that?
And I was like, no, I gotkicked out of school.
No, I didn't.
And that was the first time Iheard someone say, oh, you're
pretty creative, I just didn't.
I just never thought about that,yeah, and when it came time to
finally, like you know, when thewine the company became came to

(19:24):
fruition, like I just couldn'tafford a designer, yeah, and so
I bought like a, you know, Ibought an old imac on craigslist
for 200 bucks and I just staredat the screen, uh, and and
taught myself how to use it and,uh, so a lot of like what's
been branching out, what'sreally cool is like, um, you
know, so I do a lot of graphic.
You know, I just did deliver akeynote speech at a graphic
design conference, and so it'slike those kind of things I get

(19:47):
to do, like I was in Canada, youknow, just giving a talk about
myself, but within thoseconversations are talks about
branding Okay, right, and Ididn't go to school for it, so
it wasn't.
You know, I'm not like, oh,look at the colors and put all
that school for it, so it wasn't.
You know I'm not like, oh, lookat the colors and put all that,
like all of it just came naturalto me in a way, yeah, that,
like you know, it was reallyhard for me to be able to

(20:08):
explain it to other people sothey could do it for themselves.
So to me it just felt naturalto me the progression and how I
put those things together, um,and then, and then the use of
technology like I really builtthis company in the early days
of Facebook dark posts.
So Facebook dark posts was thebeginning of their advertising

(20:29):
platform, right, so I, I usethat and it was pretty.
It was robust.
Anything that early thatstarted early was robust and and
like it was pretty detailed.
You could market down to a Tsomewhat.
It almost felt somewhat illegaland now they don't do some of
those.
But you could market to race,uh, you could market to if uh,

(20:52):
to their employer.
You could market, uh, down tothe road, um, and a lot of
things that we did.
It's like we ran an ad.
So if I was going to ColoradoSprings, I would run ads to
Coloradoado springs and thenpeople be like, oh, wow, like I,
I just I saw that you know,people were used to it, but
that's really how I, how I builtit and so I talk a lot about

(21:12):
about that and so somewhatdesigned.
So it's in all of those talks.
It's not specifically onmarketing, but a lot of that
kind of falls within theparameters of telling my story.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
Well, even well, even for your book.
I mean you, I, you know, Ilistened to a lot of books and I
did listen to your book, and soI feel like I actually already
know you because I've beenlistening.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
By the way, props for reading your own book for the
book.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Huge detail that's important to a lot of people.
And the hard part was becauseit's, it's, I'm, I'm, I'm
reading the book, like so I'mreading, yeah, there's, it's no
personality, what I reallywanted to was to go off strip,
what I'll go off script, likewhy the fuck?
Like I wanted to somebody, Iwant to give somebody extra that
thing, yeah, yeah.

(22:05):
And so I do sound a littlemonotone in it.
I was it was so funny Cause Ijust looked it up, cause I was
like, oh, is it on Spotify andso, and it is, and so, um, yeah,
it's just like, oh, okay, butyeah, I it was.
It was a really fun experience.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Putting the book together felt was somewhat
therapeutic yeah, I believe itwas honestly how you placed it
together and how you told yourstories and how you would have
this bottle of wine and pair itwith that story.
Honestly, for me, I mean, itshows back to the branding and
marketing of just the side ofyour art.

(22:41):
I mean that's not generallywhat you see or listen to, um,
in a book.
It's here's the chapter, here'sthe story.
Let's go on to the next chapter.
Here's the story, but youactually paired it with the
wines and these experiences,which was I thought was really,
really fun and cool right, let'stake a break for a minute,

(23:04):
because Jazzy has got somethingto tell you.
All right, let's talk about it.
So did you know we do haveextra episodes on Patreon and
you can only get these for $5.
What, yeah, crazy?
I know Dope, so go to Patreon.
Link is in the description ofthe episode and subscribe $5.

(23:28):
You're supporting us and you'regetting to learn more about the
wine industry.
Let's go, woo, all right, allright, all right, guess what?
I think Ian has something totell us.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
I do, I do.
We got some merch going onright now.
We got, say, what we gothandbags no way.
We got stickers.
What we got tank tops right nowfor the summertime, oh hell
yeah, we got some windbreakerstoo.
So go to bungpodstore and getyour bungpod Pod merch, yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Wine is the placeholder of time, the reason
why you go on vacation.
You're in Portugal, you're onthe beach, you grab a
three-year-old bottle of VinhoVerde and it's the most amazing.
You're watching the sunset,you're with your people and then
you come back to the States andyou're trying to find that
bottle Right.

(24:24):
Yeah, a couple years later youfind it.
You're like, oh my god, likethis is horrible, this doesn't
taste the same.
And then you're like it's anexperience, right, and it's
everything else.
It's the beach, it's all ofthose things, and for me it was
like, okay, uh, with the book,it's like there's a connection
to all of those stories.

(24:45):
Those bottles were there.
Yeah, right.
So when I, when I talk about perse catching on fire, yeah, on
the first day of service, thatwas a bottle of wine that I had
open for a guest, so I opened itto candidate it and they ran
late for lunch.
So like what was happening waslunch had ended and now we're
doing the transition.
So people were coming in, theemployees are coming in, staff

(25:07):
know all that stuff washappening.
And I remember walking aroundthe like into the service
station and I was like.
I was like I was like, oh man,it's like somebody's smoking
crack and like you know, theywere like I said no seriously
smells like somebody's smokingcrack, and they all paused for a
long time.
They're like andre we don't knowwhat crack smells like right,

(25:29):
which is like but and then I hadto explain.
It's like oh, you know, I grewup, you know, in the crack era,
in, like, in trenton, new jersey.
So like, yeah, you would seethat you could smell it.
They would be in the schoolyard, you know, putting the fire to
the glass and you could see itflicker, like I'd be sitting on
the porch, but you could smellit and it smelled.
And then I was like, oh yeah,okay, it smells like an

(25:49):
electrical fire.
Okay, guys, you know, smokestarted to billow through the,
through the vents and all that,and I and I remember I had
grabbed the guest was like, oh,we're gonna leave before that.
And then I grabbed the ball.
They like here, give me thecanner, it's like you enjoy it.
And so I bought it back to thestation and everybody there was
having family meal and I so.

(26:11):
So when I think about that wine, I think about the fire.
And so the concept was how do I, you know, tell my life, my
wine life story?
And through these bottles?
yeah, and so super cool, and sothe title of the book is, you
know, 99 Bottles of BlackSheep's Guide to Life-Changing
Wine, and so those are the winesthat define my life and part of
the book is to encourage otherpeople.

(26:32):
What's your 99?
What are the bottles that youremember that define your life,
right, like, and you know, someof it was water, it was.
Some of them are reallyexpensive wines, you know know,
some of it was water it was.

(26:52):
Some of them are reallyexpensive lines.
You know, the first entry inthe book is oh, you know, you
know.
Or your san perry, right, uh,or the sparkling water, yeah.
So yeah, san pellegrino was likewhen I quit, but when I first
got into that it was, it was,you know, old english 800, you
know, and I talk about.
You know, I was a kid who wasraised by hip hop and popular
culture.
You know, hip hop is the onlygenre of music that tells it's
aspirational.
It tells you like.
It tells you what fashion, ittells you what car to drive, it

(27:13):
tells you how to wear your pantsor your clothes.
It actually even tells you whatwoman to be attracted to, right
.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, it really does.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, so like it's that only genre music does that.
So like you're listening to andyou're like, well shed, you
know, ice cube drinks 40 hours,right, you know what I mean
obviously I have to, oh my god,this tastes like ice, cube,
piston, charcoal, charcoal,right.
So so that was, and so the bookwas really fun and like, in a
way, and therapeutic, of beingable to go back and really like

(27:45):
what you remembered and to beable to dive deeper into those
stories and so, and it made merelive like living in New York
and and just like my wholecareer which, like I say, I
don't I don't do a lot ofreflecting, right, because it's
hindsight is 2020.
So, like you know, I think in alot of those instances, you
know, out of fear, you know, I'dbe on the floor curled up in

(28:06):
the fetal position, right,because you could clearly see
where it went wrong.
And so the book was really fun.
And then we wanted to be youknow I don't take myself serious
so the idea was like we wantedit to be like a wine guide and
so inside of that you couldlearn.
You know it's like oh, what is,what is?
You know what is Chateau,enough to pop.
And then also, I always feltlike it was kind of like native

(28:28):
learning by reading it throughthe stories, you've got an
inside track into, like howthings worked in the restaurant
and how just you know like how Igot into wine and so it was a
really, really fun project forme, you know.
You know, looking back on on itit's like oh, wow, okay, it was
cool.
But then I think of covid, itdidn't really.
You know, its growth wasstunted in a way right, because

(28:51):
you know it came out in octoberbook tour.
You know we did a little bit inthe fall with a, with a big
push coming like and you knowthe next quarter, and then it
all got shut down because ofcovid.
Um, I'm working on my next book, which is great I signed, you
know, for when I'm here, it'sthe.
You know it's the largest winebook advance in the history of
publishing oh shit.

(29:11):
Yeah, so we got a book comingout.
It's called thirst trap how tolove wine without monogamy, um,
and so, uh, I'm really excited.
It's more of a wine 101 book,um, which I said to myself I
never wanted to do because Ifeel, like you know, there's
already the definitive wine 101books out there.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, and so so.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
But then you know, you start to realize, like you
know, the thousands of the dms Iget each day are really just
people asking the basicquestions yeah, so it's like
okay.
So maybe it's the tone and andwhich I I talk about it that
maybe we should.
Uh, you know, maybe you shoulddo a book.
So I'm excited and like we'reworking on that now.
Uh, so it's been really funhell.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, that's awesome man.
I love that.
I love how you fuse like,because I grew up in hip-hop too
, and I love how you fuse wineand hip-hop together, because
that's always been he brings itup like every podcast.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
Yeah, I'm here for the, here for the music, but I'm
like I can't remember, remembereven what I did today.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, I like, and sometimes I, when people don't.
Uh, when I try to explain whoyou are to some people, I'm like
he's kind of like the wine,Jay-Z, like a little bit.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
It's just, it's weird .
And then you think of, like,how, how that, like wine, is now
a big part of that culture.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, it's not.
You know it was a really greatarticle.
You know where they weretalking about.
It's not about for basketballplayers, it's not.
It's it's not about the chainanymore, it's not about the car

(30:44):
or the house, it's about whatthey can bring and everybody
trying to work together on thewine and I think that's really
cool.
You know it's like.
You know the idea, like soiconically culturally, like the
barbershop, right, the fact thatlike totally the show has a
show that he's in the barbershop, yeah, getting that, and
they're drinking 1990 latourlike that, really like worlds

(31:06):
colliding yeah, really kind ofcool to see.
Yeah, then we've all kind ofseen what happens when wine
becomes part of popular culture.
You know, you look at sidewaysyeah, just one scene you know 45
seconds long and it decimated.
You know a particular graperight, yep right and then
elevated pinot noir in that wayand you really got to see that

(31:28):
um and even like, think aboutrosé.
You know the fat jewish, youknow with that, you know how
rose, you know rosé.
At some point I think it'simploded a little bit, but you
know, let's call it.
Five years ago, rose was largerthan wine as a category yeah
and that you know, like youthink of, like you know
producers that hadn't that nevermade rose, and then their first

(31:49):
vintage that come out and theymake 45 000 cases.
Yeah, right so it became thisbig thing and part of popular
culture and I'm anxious to seewhere wine goes as it continues
to kind of go down that pathyeah, well, and speaking of the
wine, I know ian had a couplequestions about your winery in
oregon and that whole.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Well, yeah, I mean also, I just kind of want to get
have you explain a little bitof this wine, of the new noir to
so, yeah, what's in it?
What's in it?
And I have a, I think I have aa little bit of a guess of a

(32:31):
large, a large quantity of pinotgreen possibly.
So my guess is some pinot gris,just because of the color, and
I think it's probably like askin fermented are you drinking
the same thing?

Speaker 2 (32:45):
no, I'm drinking something else oh we're not
anything.
It looks close enough.
Um, yeah, no, so it is uh sorry.
Skin contact.
Pinot gris there's somegewurztraminer in it I was gonna
say gewurztraminer uh, andthere's a little bit of uhot
Blanc as well.
Okay nice, and so I originallymade this wine in 2020 and skin

(33:08):
contact, and so it looked orange.
So the two vintages that I'vemade, one looks orange and the
other one looks Romano style.
This way.
Yeah, and so I'm honest, right,I fucked up.
I let the wine sit on the skinstoo long and then, due to some
communication, miscommunication,it was bottled and now, you

(33:33):
know.
So now there's all thisclamoring.
People are like when's the nextfinish all this?
So there's that, but they'reexpecting something that looks
totally different.
Right, there's something thatlooks orange, and I'm like fuck,
and so you know, and, and Iguess, like how I attacked
everything, it's like you, youjust own up to it and you just
roll, and so what we're doing is, if you look at that label, it

(33:54):
there's a there's on the topright.
It says late.
There's a stamp on it on thefront label on the front, on the
front I don't see anything youdon't see anything on it.
Oh, maybe they gave you.
Oh, we shipped you, it didn'thave any wax on it no yeah, okay
, yeah, so, yeah.
So because we, because we, wepay people to wax it.

(34:16):
We don't wax it all at once,because we made a whole bunch
and it cost me 50 an hour.
So what?
We?
Basically, if you look at it,we bought these stamps from
amazon that said late, okay, andwe just every single label that
says late and thatdifferentiated this wine from
the next one, and then I had togo out and tell the story that I
messed up that like that Iwaited too I mean you might have

(34:39):
waited too long, but it doesn'ttaste like phenolically bitter,
so like when I think of leavingon the skins too long.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
But it doesn't taste like phenolically bitter, so
like when I think of leaving onthe skins too long, especially
for an orange one.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
It's down and that's why I didn't.
I didn't, like if it was bitter, then I wouldn't even fuck, I
wouldn't even put it out right.
Yeah, like, the wine tastesgreat to me, but it wasn't what
people thought it should looklike and what it would continue
to, and so this is the one off,like I fucked up so I'm just
gonna put this on and I put thesticker on it and and that was
it, and so it's been wellreceived and we'll probably

(35:07):
we'll move back to how it'ssupposed to look.
But that was that was just kindof it, and so it's for me like.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
So new noir, it's like orange is the new black
yeah that's well and honestly soyou're telling me, like I have
an og bottle right here, likethis is very like.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
So this, this one, in some ways, because they,
because once it's done, it's,it's over, yeah, and you know,
2024 will look orange, like,like, like the others, okay,
it's just, it's one of thosethings that it's.
It's one of those things whereyou just pivot.
I'm just honest.
I think one time I had to paysome money and I bought bottles

(35:47):
from China and they weren'tsterile and basically the wines
all started to re-ferment in thebottle.
My life was over, my companywas over, but we narrowed it
down and I called everybody andI said hey look, I said to them
exactly what I said to you.
I said I'm sorry.
I said to them exactly what Isaid to you.
Yeah, I'm sorry, and, uh, wewill go ahead and recall those.
And you know I, you know I hadto sue all that over, but I

(36:10):
thought I thought it was allover but for me, it's just like
you know approaching everythingwith you know being authentic,
and that's it.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
That's all I can ask, and that's one thing I totally
respect about you because youknow a lot of time in the wine
world especially with thepodcast we've currently been
having is a lot of people saywhat good they've done, like
this is what I've seen, this iswhat I've done.
But you know what I want tohear how you fucked up,
especially when we're winemakersand we're like I work mostly in

(36:51):
the tasting room or out in thevineyard and you know what we're
.
We're human.
We fuck up.
It's okay.
But like people need tounderstand, like mistakes happen
and I appreciate that you evencan say that and be real with it
.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think all of it is.
I think you know what?
what has gotten me this far inlife is being honest and
authentic and generous yeah,totally so do you still also
have the wine shop yeah, we havethe wine shop, yeah, so we have
about eight food businesseshere in brooklyn.
And so the idea was I, um, Ijust I wanted to be part of the

(37:21):
legendary restaurant landscapeof New York and I wanted a bar.
I wanted a wine.
Yeah, like I've been here, likeI just want a bar, like, if I
wasn't traveling, this is whereyou could find me.
And so I had moved my family to.
We had moved to Lyon for fourmonths for, like, language
immersion for my, my two boys.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
And in 2016, and then also we were, I guess we were
kind of trying on as a family,like if, like they, if my family
was going to live there for sixmonths out of the year, and I
mean I wouldn't, it didn'tmatter to me.
Like it's like I'm in new york,I need to go to work it's six
hours west, I need to go see myfamily in six hours east, uh,
and so I just remember at theend just you know, the

(38:05):
experience of like eating therein restaurants.
I, just when we came back, Iwas like listen, like nobody's
going anywhere, like we're gonnaopen a bar, and so I had signed
the lease in 20 at thebeginning of 2017.
Took me three years to openthis bar.
That's like you know, 400square feet and, to be honest
with, for a lot of contractorsand people in new york, it just
you know 400 square feet and, tobe honest with, for a lot of

(38:25):
contractors and people in NewYork, it just you know it was
just too small.
Like most people's get out ofbed price 250 grand.
I was like the whole project is65,000.
Right, um, and so in themeantime, I guess what happened
is it's you know I'm I'mcompetitive and somewhat
vindictive in a lot of ways.
So I was selling wine in LA andI had, like this really kind of
weird and somewhat horribleexperience selling wine at this

(38:49):
wine shop, where I felt like theperson was was condescending
and weird and like and I don'twalk in saying anything right
and I'm not like I'm saying I'ma big deal or anything right,
like I'm just thankful of yourtime.
Yeah, I'm thankful of your time.
We present the wines and we letthe wine speak for themselves.
We could talk about the winesand I just remembered walking
out of there feeling like Icould do this better than this

(39:11):
person.
Yeah, and I had some friendswho owned a store in my
neighborhood that wasn't gettingmuch traction and I called them
like before I even got in thecar and I said, hey, man, if you
are, you still looking to sell,and if you are, I'm your guy.
And so I bought the store in2019, in April 2019.
And uh, and so it's just been areally fun experience and kind

(39:33):
of like right on scale or aheadof the, the head of the curve,
in the way that a lot ofrestaurants, you're kind of not
a real restaurant group, nowhospitality group, unless you
have a wine store.
So the idea is like you have arestaurant, you have all these
loyal people that trust you withthe wine selection Like why
wouldn't they buy wine from youat retail?
And so it was just really funand the wine store is like 200

(39:53):
square feet.
But it's all in my neighborhoodand so during the pandemic we
just kept expanding and so westill have that and that's been
really fun and really awesome tobe able to provide these things
inside of my neighborhood,right when I feel like I was
going outside of my neighborhoodto get some of these things and
to be able to and be able tohave that and build that and

(40:15):
like and it's all on this onestreet here.
It spans like seven blocks, butyeah, so I still have that and
the restaurant is like cool.
You know, like for me it waslike I was fascinated with these
meat antique meat slicers andthat's kind of how it started.
I bought it, then I had youknow it was, you know I had it
at the crib, you know I named itKimbo slice.
Like it was just awesome.

(40:39):
And then I was like and thenreally, you know, we would
entertain.
You know my last trip, I wouldtravel like almost every single
week and then, like, I think mylast like trip was always around
like right before Thanksgiving,so it was like November 19.
And and so we would start toentertain, like you know, all
the way through the holidays andthen, you know, the bar just
became really an extension ofour home and so so it was really

(41:02):
fun.
And then thematically it wasjust, like you know, I want to
celebrate country hams and soit's the largest selection of
country hams in one place at 15um give or take some black
market ones off in, so and it'sall american cheese, uh, and
it's all american wine back tothe 60s, and so it's a really
fun place.
You know, I think to drink andlike some of the greatest value

(41:24):
in wine today is old Americanwine and it's so funny because
some of the stuff is not thestuff that most people would
think.
Like you know, when you saidcollectible wine, you know I
mean I just bought a whole bunchbut like we can't even get
Kenwood Jack London, so KenwoodJack London Vineyard, we bought,
bought cabernet and we have itfrom 1985.

(41:44):
We sell it for probably 85bucks on the list and it's just
amazing, right, you know, andthat there's really no market
for that, like there's they'renot people buying that wine at
auction.
You know what I mean, right?
So it's a real, you know what Imean.
So it's not an auction marketfor it and it's really great and
I think you the idea ofintroducing people into.

(42:05):
You know, drinking older winetakes some experience to.
You know, everybody thinks thatit's supposed to be.
You know that it's going to bebig and bold and jammy, like how
current releases, and so it'sjust really awesome to be able
to do that.
You know, I think the wine listis like 700 selections and it's
this all old, old American wine, wine which is, and then by the

(42:25):
glass, we kind of have likesome of the new young guns, um,
but it's just, it's been reallyremarkable.
I was just in atlanta.
Someone came up and they werelike, oh my god, like we're at
your place and we had, you know,1976 petite syrah and he was
like that one's amazing.
And so there's, there'ssomething really fun.
Fun about that and like youknow, and it's a place that it
doesn't exist anywhere in theworld, yeah, uh, and it's, and

(42:46):
it's in my neighborhood and Igot that, you know.
So for me it's like really fun.
And then we just kind of builtaround that.
You know I yeah bakery.
You know, I grew up in sanantonio, texas.
So when I'm feeling homesick,you know breakfast tacos, my jam
, and so the idea was like let'sdo breakfast tacos.
And you know, you know andconnect the dots.
It's like my world's collideand I grew up, you know, putting
tortillas in the microwavestore-bought stone meal.

(43:10):
We mill our you know 80 of ourgrain, we press them to order,
and you know we're the largestpurchase of benton's but you
know we spent his bacons,farmstead cheeses, uh, or you
know, um, you know, and organic,you know you know organic eggs,
and so it's just been reallylike a fun thing to kind of you
know culinary, wide culinaryworlds kind of collide in that,
and so it's like that.

(43:31):
You know I have a seafoodrestaurant.
It's bought into a pizza, apizza place, you know New York
style pizza, and so it's justthat part has been really,
really fun for me, yeah.
Yeah, and so it's just that parthas been really, really fun for
me.
Yeah, yeah, and so that's whatI spent the pandemic doing.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Good, that's awesome.
I know, Before we started thispodcast, we were actually
talking about going into a wineshop here in Chilean.
It's a very small town, so youknow it's definitely a and it's
an expensive town is reallywhere I should say but yeah, you

(44:08):
know.
And then we started the bungpod and here we are.
So another thing I wanted tobring up was you went to Oregon
not because of the Pinot Noir,but because of the Chardonnay,
and what was your question?

Speaker 1 (44:22):
It was yeah, I mean, how would you compare your
experience with OregonChardonnay to your experience
with Burgundy?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Actually.
So it's the other way.
I actually did go to Oregonbecause of, because of, because
of Pinot Noir.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Oh OK.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
But also same question, but for Pinot Noir so
the idea was like, um, uh, anyrest, any you know great
restaurant, great wine list thatI had a hand in building and
being a part of that really kindof bookend on red and white
burgundy, uh, and so that waslike a really a first love.
And then, you know, I didn'treally have the gumption to to

(45:04):
like try to do something infrance or anything like that.
I was just like I'mdomestically here and what I
felt, where I felt like peoplewere doing cool stuff with pinot
noir was was oregon, you know.
You know people talked about,oh, russian river, all that, but
I was just like oregon to meseems, seems like the place to
be.
I want to be there.
And actually that was part ofthe wine list that I really like

(45:25):
kind of delve into.
Um, you know, I think a lot oftimes, like in those big wine
lists, you know, as a, as abuyer, you want to put your mark
on it, and so for us it waslike for me it was really
growing the, the, you know the,the willamette valley pinot noir
section, and so I got to reallyknow, know a lot of the
producers and become familiarwith it.
And then we also had familythere, like on my wife's side,
her mother's side of the family,and so you know we would go.

(45:48):
And then you know, just likeyou know, it's just that crazy
thing, stars align Somebody wehad met at the restaurant.
You know he was buying some ofthe great vineyards in America.
He bought the occidentalvineyard that Kistler made
famous in California.
He bought Seven SpringsVineyard, which was one of the

(46:15):
most famous vineyards in America, and I think that property was
actually split in half becauseof divorce.
He got both hats back together,signed this Hong Kong lease, a
99-year lease.
He needed to kick everybody out, which made people in Oregon
angry because they just hadhandshake deals.
And so I just remember runningto him on the street, like on
57th Street, and he's like ohhey, kid, how's it going?
Last time I talked to you youwere going to make wine, blah,
blah, blah, and I said, oh yeah,I got a couple projects in Napa

(46:35):
.
And then he said, well, youshould call Gretchen, my
assistant, she'll get you aticket.
And I came out to how I gotthere.
And so, while being there, whatI did witness through Seven
Springs, through Eveningland,was this evolution of Chardonnay
, which was just remarkable whenyou really think about white

(46:56):
wine from Oregon, the firstthings that come to mind are
Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris.
And that's easy.
Right, the early settlers therewere of Germanic influence and
that's what they planted, right,you know, the early settlers
there were of Germanic influenceand that's what they planted.
When it came time to plantChardonnay, you know, we called
our good friends down at UCDavis in California and we're
like, hey, we need someChardonnay.
And they provided and gave usthe Winty clone, which is a late

(47:18):
ripening clone that's moresupplemental to the climate in
California and not to Oregon.
So a lot of times.
So we had made shittyChardonnay was always flabby and
there was like some micro.
I think Bethel Heights reallykind of thrived.
They did like 50, 50, you know.
So it was like they did 50,went to clone and 50 like Dijon
clones.
But I think when the Valley gothit and started planning Dijon

(47:38):
clones, things changed and itwas like trying to think of what
vintage I think it was 2007,eveningland chardonnay that that
I think was on the cover of thewines picked it like really
kind of changed the game wherepeople were like like I remember
taking the chardonnay to somepeople you know some prominent
people and asking you knowsomething about you know, you
know, is this, you know, is thisa good you know oregon peanut?

(48:01):
I mean oregon chardonnay, andthey were like this could be in
the the running for the bestChardonnay, and so that that's
kind of how you, you know how,that kind of how you saw that
kind of happening, but likeChardonnay, and so we only make,
we make a stainless steelChardonnay and then we do like a
single vineyard Chardonnay andI think it's like, yeah, it's my

(48:21):
mom's service.
She's like, yeah, where wasthat yellow top?
Um, it's been remarkable tokind of to be able to see that.
And now you know, and like youknow you've made it, because now
we have like our own chardonnayconference or you know, or
whatever that might be yeah um,you know, I mean, you know it,
to me it's a little bitdifferent in the way of like, if
you know, in the way that it'ssomewhat that I would explain um
, organ, pinot noir, like, beinglike the best of both worlds,

(48:43):
right, you know, it does havehave some of that fruit that you
associate with california, uh,but then it has the, you know,
the chihuahua taste of the landthat you find, um, um, in
burgundy, right.
So the minerality, um, yes, ithas the minerality, the acid,
all of those things, but less,but, you know, but with a little
bit more fruit, uh, anddepending on what producer and

(49:04):
how they're using oak, um, butyou know, I was really, you know
, privileged in a way that youknow I got to work with, you
know, dominic lafon and you knowwho I really regard in the
world kind of regards isprobably one of the best white
wine makers in the world.
Yeah, a friend of mine had, youknow, had contracted him and he
came, he was consulting on theproject there, and so it was

(49:26):
just a really interesting way tolook at it and then to get some
insights and, you know, to beable to use, you know, some of
his secret toast barrels and allthat kind of shit, but like it
was just a.
It's just been a really fun,remarkable thing.
And I think when I firststarted, you know seven Springs
was expensive and so I rememberyou know making a couple of
barrels, coming back to New Yorkto sell them and you know, and

(49:48):
how it all washed out.
You know they were $80 a bottlewholesale, you know so like,
but not a lot.
You know you sell a lot of it.
I pat myself on the back but youknow I still pick up bartending
shifts because I have to pay amortgage and uh, and that's you
know.
That's where I realized like Ireally want to speak to a
younger audience about wine andI don't think that you could do

(50:08):
that at that price point, and sothat's what changed.
And also just understandingthat you know a revenue center
for a restaurant but for thewine program, is the wine by the
glass, and so that's what Ireally focused on wanting to
make wine by the glass.
You know that were a little bithigher in asset.
Right, the asset is thatlifeline they could stay open a

(50:28):
couple of days earlier and therewas margin built in for them
that they could actually makemoney and that, like knowing the
business on that side, feltlike I felt like it helped me in
a way to be able to talk realbusiness to the buyer.
Right Like yeah, we can all talkabout wine and it's great and I
feel confident that they hitthat.
This wine hits on that mark.
Now let's talk business.
Like let me talk about P&L.

(50:50):
Right, because that's reallywhat your job is about.
Right, like you can memorizeall the regions in the Loire,
but like you'll get fired ifyou're like, if your numbers
aren't right.
Yeah, yeah exactly that was thething is like hey, like, like,
you can make money with this, um, and I like, and I understood
that and it's like.
So, specifically, our everydayluxury wines are meant to be by

(51:13):
the glass, and just so happenedon the retail, which I didn't
understand.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
It fell under 20, under 25 bucks, yeah, and so so
that all worked out for me inthat way okay, so you, now that
you brought up the youngergeneration, this is actually
kind of been a topic that we'vetalked about a couple of times,
yeah, and you are going to bringup the same question.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
So you have a club W that is kind of targeted to the
new generation, but we've beentalking about how the upcoming
generation is being affected.
Did I word that correctly?

Speaker 1 (51:50):
I feel like I mean yeah, I mean with the new uh
generation coming out.
I mean this question is uh,there's a lot of I guess there's
a lot of ways you can go withit.
There's branding, there'smarketing, there's winemaking
styles, there's also alternativevessels like pouches, boxes or
screw caps and or cans.
Um, but for the new generation,especially like with your club

(52:14):
w?
Um, how are you trying totarget the, the new generation,
especially with the?
So?

Speaker 2 (52:21):
club has transformed into wink and I kind of like set
the party ways with that.
I'm not part of that anymore.
I can just tell you thepremises on it.
It was just like making winefun and accessible at a
different price point.
It was called Club W and it wasthe wine club.
Then it morphed into because,when you really think about it,

(52:43):
people aren't acquiring wineclubs for 300 million dollars,
they're quite.
We were making our own brandsand that kind of thing, and so
that was.
That was what was cool.
You know, to me, if I had toexplain it, it was kind of like,
uh, urban outfitters of wine,right.
When you looked at the label tome they're kind of like look

(53:03):
like the t-shirts, right, youknow, when you walk in with
t-shirts, like that kind ofthing, yeah, but it was like
just talking, you know, talkingto people in a different way.
So I think like summer, summerwater was was their brand and I
think that was a big breakoutfor them.
That really rode the the wave ofrosé and I think so price point
.
And the way they talked aboutwine and how wine was, I I think

(53:25):
was a really great thing.
I think, how you knowpersonally how I, how I look at
it now, is is, you know, beingable to communicate with people
at different levels about wine,right, making it more accessible
and like, not less intimidating.
And I think you know for me,you know where the fun creative
part comes, you know is somewhatin the labeling and then the

(53:47):
message um, and you see that,like you know, you know it's so
funny because you know people,you know they poop, poo and they
say marketing, but, like youknow, so if I put the shit in
the brown bag, that's stillmarketing yeah, yeah right, you
know what I mean.
So like you totally aroundpeople talk about it as being a
bad word, but like, I don'tthink so, like, even, like you
know, if you're talking aboutorange wine, natural wine,
that's marketing.
Yeah, like, decide, the factthat you decide to do that, or

(54:09):
whatever, there's marketing, allof it, right.
So, like, I get it when peopletalk about overly being overly
marketed.
Um, but I think you know ayounger, you know it's kind of
like the same thing.
They want to make sure thatwhat they're drinking is real.
Um, you know.
So people talk about additivesand all that kind of stuff, but
like people just want to want tobelieve in what they're
drinking.

(54:30):
You know, part of some of it isinteresting to me because, you
know, I think we alwaysromanticize about other
countries.
You know, I hear people talkingabout like you know, they don't
take the wine to the lab andI'm like, well, they couldn't
afford to take the wine.
Like, so it's some of thatstuff.
But like I'm psyched about allof it.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople are like, oh, what do you
feel about natural wine?
Now, it's like, well, to behonest with you, there's nothing

(54:51):
natural about wine, right, ifyou just let grapes sit there,
they don't become wine, right.
So, like, in that thing, likeyou know, talking about low
intervention, I understand that.
I understand why people areinto that and that's cool.
Um, you know, as a good friendof mine says, you know, if it's
good, I want to drink it, right,I'm part of the good one.
Yeah, um, but, but you're ready, but like, but you know I'm

(55:13):
allowing other, you know I'mgiving grace to everybody else,
like, if this is how you gothere, that's great, you know,
and what's interesting from likemy journey is, like you know,
the american palate has hasbecome a little, has become a
little, has become a little alittle bit more sour.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Right, you know American palette is sweet and so
you know we invented thecocktail to cover up shitty
boots.
So, like during the prohibition, right, like when you like,
when you really think about it,like you know, think about your
favorite Clint Eastwood movie.
You know he rolls in the town,kicks the saloon doors open, he
walks up to the bar.
You know he tells the bartenderhe's like you know, slaps a

(55:48):
coin or sack on the thing.
He's like whiskey, yeah thebartender back there like he
doesn't have a wax mustache,with armbands on and shaking
anything right, comes back andputs the bottle of whiskey on
the in a shot glass and puts iton the bar yeah, is that the
real history of cocktails?

Speaker 3 (56:06):
I had no idea yeah, so like I had no idea either,
but that's amazing right, soprohibition.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
They had all these speakeys and all that, and so
they had all this bootleg, likeyou know, alcohol and it wasn't
good.
So that's where they thinkabout it.
They're adding fruit flavor,like that kind of stuff,
flavoring and sweetness yeah,okay, yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
So when you think about that and so what?
What?
You've kind of stuff flavoringand sweetness.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So when you think about thatand so what, what you've kind of
witnessed is you know this kindof evolution as, as they're
starting, you know like it'scomes back a little sour like
think of the rise of kombucha.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Sour beer.
Yeah, yeah, you think aboutthose those groups, right, and
then that leads you.
If you want wine, a lot ofthose people come to wine
through natural wine, yeah, andso, like I'm, I'm here to
welcome everybody to the party.
I don't, I could care less howyou got here and I think it's
great, and if that's whatbrought you to wine, then that's
cool, um, and that's it.
And the more people that wehave drinking wine, I think it's

(57:01):
great, um, and so you know lessof the dogma and you know, and
this bullshit, if that gives anatural wine, and then you say
the now natural wine, likewhatever, that there's people
who make bullshit in thatsegment and there's people who
make bullshit in the othersection.
Yeah, and you figure out whatyou like and yeah and I think
that's you know.

(57:21):
I think that's what's cool andfun about, about all of it.
In a lot of ways, it's justlike.
It's just, it's just cool, liketo see, like it's like all of a
sudden someone's like hey, doyou like these wines?
You know, and it's like youknow is that people are like oh,
I drink this because they giveme headaches and it's all this
other shit.
But like I don't care and a lotof it is probably not true or
whatever, but like the idea ofit, I think like it's just cool,

(57:43):
like you're just seeing morepeople into wine and um, and I
get it yeah, yeah, I mean we'rethe same way.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
I mean we started this podcast because we love
wine a lot.
I didn't like thepretentiousness of wine and yeah
, when I first started, andhonestly, hearing you talk and
also the winemaker I was workingwith at the time really cut
down of like the bougie, youknow, pretentiousness, and I was

(58:10):
like, okay, well, I canactually access this, and so
that was that was like myjourney into it.
And hearing you talk ondifferent podcasts and, uh,
everything you've done uh reallyhelped me access wine in that
way and that's what our podcastis supposed to be doing as well.
Yeah, everybody, exactly.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Yeah, create the world that you want to live in.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Yeah, yeah, make it more relaxed, like we're all
here for the, we're all here forthe same thing.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, and when I saw the label OPP, I was like holy
shit, this guy's my this is myguy and I think, like to me it
was just like one of thosethings that like constantly in
my life.
It's like how do I fuse and mythose things in my life right
like?
yeah like I said, I always say,like I'm a kid who, like, was
raised on hip-hop, punk rock andskateboarding and and how, and

(59:01):
then fell in love with wine andlike, how do I put those and
fuse those things together?
And you know, opp wasinteresting because, you know,
we, we were, like I said, I wasmaking, you know, this wine in
seven, seven springs and we wereleasing space inside of another
winery and and you know, it'slike 80 dollars, right.
So I'm like, oh shit, like Ilike I need to figure out
something.
And then we purchased eightbarrels of finished wine from

(59:23):
that winery that we're releasingand we moved, we moved into the
new facility.
We just always, you know, thosebarrels were marked as OPP
because I didn't make otherpeople, and then we blended that
in with wine that I made fromseven Springs, that bought the
cost down and OPP was just abandaid, right, like it looked.
You know, I just said, you know, fucking, I'm gonna make it
look like my four-year-old didit and we're just gonna roll.

(59:52):
Yeah, because I couldn't afford.
You know, I think it was.
You know, graphic designer waslike 25k and I was like, well,
shit, I don't have 25k forglassware, glasses, uh, courts,
labels, any of that shit.
Yeah, and so, um, until thatwas it, I was like and then also
like you know, you don't, Idon't understand part of that
business where I had signed upfor the bottoming line but I
didn't have ttp approval, and sosomebody came back what the
fuck are you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
I was like so we, did OPP and it was like okay, what
like one off right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
That's my thought and like we'll change the label,
fix it the next time, and thenit just kind of stuck.
So it's kind of like morphedinto that whole thing of like.
To me it's just more inclusiveof all the people that have a
hand in making it.
You know, from the people whoare on our bottling team, the
people who are on our pickingteam, you know all of those
things.

(01:00:32):
You know a lot of those peoplework there but they're not
spending $40 on a bottle ofPinot Noir.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Right For a lot of the stuff that they have a hand
in making and building.
You know the scenes.
They can't actually affordthose wines that they make and
to me this was a homage to them.
Just, you know at you know itused to be, you know prices
going it used to be 20 bucks.
Yeah, like the idea that theycould enjoy something that that
they were a part of to me likemade me feel special in a way.

(01:01:01):
That was like okay, great, um,and that's kind of, and that was
it.
It was.
It was like okay, we're justgoing to go with OPP other
people's P&O, you know and theback label, as you guys know,
the back label is the frontlabel, so it's called other
people's P&O.
Yes, yeah.
And with me, knowing that thisbusiness is litigious, you know
people are like how do you getaway with that?
It's like, you know, and Ialways tell people, well, opp

(01:01:25):
could mean a lot of differentthings to people.
This means other people's penal, but you know, if you're from,
you know Ontario, you know it'sOntario provincial police.
You know, if you're fromOrleans, it's you know Orleans
prison, right, you know.
And so you know, and that's thekind of thing like the idea of
like you know, peak in yourinterest, opp, what like, what's
what's going on here?
You're like catching people'sattention, uh, in a way, and the

(01:01:49):
black and white design reallyjust kind of came through.
Um, you know, I'm pretty old,I'm dating myself here, but like
when we would go shopping, whenyou would go to the grocery
store, uh, the grocery storesdidn't have their own brands,
like that.
Like where they had their ownbranding, you know like, yeah,
sacred of the lakes or whateverit was, there was an aisle
called the generic aisle and sowhen you would go, we would go.
We're a military family, so youknow you did like that one shop

(01:02:12):
a month.
So you went down every singleone forever, and every night you
would go down an aisle, youknow it's like a mosaic of
colors, right, you see iteverywhere.
And then you turn down this oneaisle and it's just stark white
and so dark white, and soeverything's generic is

(01:02:33):
everything is white.
And then it has black font onit.
So you, so it'll be six pack ofcans all white, and they'll
just say beer on it, bags saypeanut butter on it, and I just
remember that like and kind ofthe things like, so how do you
stand out when you walk down awine?
Now, it's like a mosaic ofcolors, and how do you stand?
And like that was it.
And then also, like we'retalking about mouton noir, it's
like it fit, right, it's blackand white yeah, so we do the
light, simple labels um, and ifthat whole idea is like we don't

(01:02:55):
take our serious ourselves,serious right yeah yeah, what we
do in the wine is and that'skind of the whole idea of like
we pay the 25 000 so for thedesigner, so we didn't have to
jack up the price, right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
That's funny that you bring up like the whole concept
of like we're not serious, butwe still make quality wine,
because where I work it's calledhard road to hoe, and then but
they have, but they make greatwine, and I mean it's all based
on this brothel up like and allthis stuff, but it was.
It's that same concept, though,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
The thing is like it's like you know, having a
sense of humor and, and youwould think, like a serious
place like the French laundryand per se, I tell, I tell
people a lot of times like thechef has a really amazing sense
of humor, right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
And then I have to preface that, well, he tell
people a lot of times like thechef has a really amazing sense
of humor, right, yeah.
And then I have to preface that, well, he's not back there in
the kitchen cracking jokes andslapping his knee, right, and
that instance of humor reallycomes through on the menu.
So you think, like you'respending all of this money,
right, you know it's reallyexpensive.
And then you sit down andthere's all these quotes and
like, so we actually had.
You know, there was a menu I'mcalled tongue in cheek, which

(01:04:06):
was tongue.
Right, it actually consisted oftongue and cheek Right, and so
it's that way in which he had asense of humor that really like
allowed me to lean into my own,and especially when I thought
about you know lines and likehaving, like you know, I've
always felt like the greatestfoil to pretension is humor.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
Right, we can laugh at ourselves and all those
things.
That kind of takes away a lotof that tension and I felt like
that was the really.
One of the ways that I wantedto to approach wine was through
humor and through like.
This kind of thing that's fun,this very serious thing, that's
fun.
And then you know and you gottabe careful with that like
critter wine under under 20bucks, that's different, you

(01:04:48):
know.
You know a sense of humor in away that's playful, and I
thought that was really cool tokind of let people bring down
the guard, and that was it.
And you know.
And then also the whole thing oflike, like all of it, like
Mouton Noir, all this otherthing.
You know I'm generally, youknow, the last person that when
I walk into a room people thinkI'm the last person that knows
anything about wine, and Iactually like that.
They don't see me coming, right, I mean, and that.

(01:05:11):
And it goes back to this thingof like.
You can't judge a book by itscover.
So you look at these wines withvery simple labels but they're
complex, they're flavorful,well-made, um, and I think they
over-deliver for the price pointthat they're at.
And that's the part where Italk about like it's, it's in,
like what we're all talkingabout.
The reason why the company wasnamed, what it was is just that
is to strip away all thepretense.

(01:05:32):
Yeah, right, and you know, andI'm a walking example of that,
right, just when I walked in,you know, some people are like,
can I help you, sir?
It's like, no, I'm here to showthe wines.
Yeah, and they can't believe it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
You know, they're like what you know it's so funny
because I have, like I'll have,a lot of 21 year olds being at
the winery that I am and I'll Itry to give them a basic lesson
of how to taste, and when I doit I go.
At the end I'll go, you know,even as young as you are, if you
start getting your palate right, and then when you go into the

(01:06:04):
big wine industry, you couldprobably turn on any big ceo by
the way that you talk about wineso if you learn now.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
They'll never see it coming, but they'll be very
impressed no, and that's it,like you become more confident,
like drinking, understandingyour palate.
Yeah, if that's what you wantto do, right?
You know, for some people it'slike hey, I just want to sip
mine, I'll fucking think aboutit.
Cool, and I'm all for that too.
Yeah, um, yeah, it's like, butyou know, but I get it.
It's one of those weird wayswhere you have to um, you know,

(01:06:39):
like it seems like you have tocome with all this knowledge and
then enjoy it and it's allweird.
It's like so why do wines havetasting notes but cocktails
don't?

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Yeah, Think about it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Cocktails are just a list of ingredients, but nobody
has any questions.
But all of a sudden everybodythinks wine is.
So it's complicated.
When someone's like, well, Idon't know what I smell, I was
like well, what the fuck do yousmell in a Paloma or a Margarita
?

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
I never even thought about that.
Classic cocktails I never eventhought about that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
And just think like those old cocktail, like classic
cocktails, where generallysomeone's had them before and
they kind of know what to taste.
But when you think about likethe stuff that they, when you go
to a cocktail bar and they mixall kinds of shit up, you're
like like there's no.
There's a, there's a list ofingredients and that's it.
There's no tasting about what,what it's supposed to taste like
or what you can expect, butsomehow about what what it's

(01:07:26):
supposed to taste like or whatyou can expect.
But somehow where wine becomes,you know, and like we made our
own bed in that way, the wineindustry and that in that way,
but like it's trying to likehelp people put their guard down
and like what do you taste Like?
There's no wrong answer Tasteit Almost.
Do you like it?
Like no one.
Like no one says when you'redoing a guard, you're like so
what do you?

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
taste?

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
I honestly, I've never even thought about that
yeah and so, and so, you know, Ijust try to break it down in a
more practical way for people tosay, like it doesn't have to be
that way.
It's like do you like it?
First and foremost, who gives ashit about anything?
Like, do you like it, you likeit.
And then also, like you know,somebody says, well, I like it
all.
And I said okay, okay, and thenthe thing is like just
understanding that, like now,tasting different wines from

(01:08:06):
different places, and that's whyI talk about, in my opinion,
wine is not this race to find asoulmate and you want to be with
the rest of your life.
Wine is just cool in a way that,hey, I'm going to the Oysterbeg
, so I'm going to bring thesewines.
Hey, we're going to a barbecue,I'm going to a barbecue, we're
bringing these wines, right,like the idea that, like, the

(01:08:26):
situation can dictate whatsomebody, what wines, you bring,
and then and then having someof the favorites within that
category, and that's what I wantpeople to understand and that's
what's fun.
It's like, you know, kind ofdressing for the occasion, right
totally, absolutely totally Ilove it um.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Another quick question that I had.
Uh, you had a wine that wasknown as e equals mc squared um.
I wanted I was that part ofyour first label yeah, so that
was uh.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
I actually designed that label on.
I was wondering really the nametoo yeah, so it was, and so
what that was was really it wasa color, was going to be a
collaboration between me, so amentor of mine, uh, his name is
mac mcdonald okay and so my lastname is mac.
So that would be e equals mcsquare, so mc short gotcha uh,

(01:09:25):
evolution, and I think that'swhat we, I think that's what we
had called it, and so that wasjust kind of a concept, that
like I really wanted to do.
And so from that concept, andthen I, when I left the
restaurant, I, you know I leftthe restaurant to go make wine,
and so that was kind of one ofthe things.
And then, and then, you know, Istarted this.
You know, I came along on thisproject and started a

(01:09:46):
distribution company here in NewYork with some other partners,
and so from that idea of Eequals M3 squared, we came up
with Relativity Vineyards andthat became a private brand that
we made within that company andso, but that original idea was
about me and my mentor makingmore wine.

(01:10:07):
And Mac, I remember, you know,was in San Antonio and there was
an article and it was talkingabout, you know,
african-americans in the winebusiness and they talked about
it like being like a unicorn,yeah, and I remember like
there's no social.
So I remember I wrote an emailto the editor and basically

(01:10:28):
saying, you know, I am thatfable creature that you seek,
and so it's about, like that,like me being in the industry
when I thought about it, andthen I reached out to Mac
McDonald and it was really funnybecause I just remember it,
he's so great, I just remember,like every five minutes he goes
you're black, right, I go, yeah,I'm black, and like it was just

(01:10:49):
, it was interesting.
And, like you know, I, you knowI try to tell a lot of people,
like you know, when you don'tsee anybody that looks like you,
you don't think it's for youand you know, and I think,
fortunately for me, you know Ididn't, I wasn't bought up that
way.
Like you know, I think, likefor me, my mom always instilled
like you can do anything and Ilike, and I was dumb enough to
believe her Right, but that, butthat I think for a lot of

(01:11:11):
people that's true.
And so you know, here was aperson who was doing something
that I didn't know that I coulddo.
You know I was a sommelier andthat you know it's like
something about it, like Ihadn't told him that I was
moving to Napa and I and I, thefirst day I show up, the first

(01:11:32):
day he calls me, he's like hey,what are you doing, buddy?
And I thought that he knew Iwas there and I was about to say
how do you know I'm here?
And I said I said, yeah, well,I just pulled up to Dini DeLuca
and he goes where I go, here inNapa.
He goes.
What I said?
I thought you knew he goes.
No, I didn't know.
He's like where are you staying?
I said well, they put us up ina hotel.
He's like nope, you're going tostay with me.
So anyways, it was just likethat was the so that was the

(01:11:56):
idea and concept.
I was still working in therestaurant for the, and then,
and then it never really came tooh yeah, what's the?
No, this was after I met him,this was before I met him, right
, and so like that was kind ofhow our relationship started and
that was it.
And so MC Square was kind oflike acknowledging his impact

(01:12:17):
and influence over me andwanting to have a project
together, which we never did,but it did lead to something
else, that kind of you know,that gave me the courage to
continue to do it.
You know, I always think that,like you know, through life,
it's it there, it's all steppingstones, right, it's like this
thing, the next thing that getsyou, the next thing that gets
you, the next thing thatprepares you, next thing, um,

(01:12:39):
and so kind of like you know,you know somewhat of a
never-ending story, but likethat is life.
And so I, and that was it.
So e, e, e, e, hosensee squarethat I did yeah, awesome that's
awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
Yeah, that was fun all right, I think we're about
out of time right now.
Um.
Thank you so much, hey.
If um anything that you want toplug, please do now and we'll
put it down in the show notes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
Um I'm plugging the bunghole, the bung, actually,
that didn't sound right.
Anyways, bung pod, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
No, that's kind of why we named it.
That Bung podcast, yeah, yes,that's why we named it, that we
appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Yeah, yeah, check the show notes for all of Andre
Mack's stuff he's got going on.
We're going to put all thelinks in there.
Thank you so much for coming onthe pod man.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
This was a great time .

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
Thank you.
Oh, we need to do our go-aheadcheers.
Give me some wine.
I need a little bit more in myglass.
This is awesome, by the way.

Speaker 3 (01:13:41):
Yeah, this is phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
New Noir, go get the new noir guys.
Cheers, cheers.

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
Cheers.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
My guys didn't do that.
That's bad luck, but I'm withyou guys.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
We respect it.
Thanks, man.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
Thank you again.
Hey you, Now that I have yourattention and you've listened to
this wonderful podcast that wehad to offer, we'd like you to
scroll down.
And what are they going to dowhen they scroll down, Ian?

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Scroll down and give us some feedback.
Rate us on your podcastplatform ideally five stars
stars, and if you would give ussome critical feedback, you can
dm us on instagram at officialbung pod.

(01:14:36):
Let's hear it, let's go.
It is only two of us writingthis show, two of us producing
the show.
It's me, ian king, jasmineshattuck and the lovely, lovely
Becca Hines as our producers andour writers are me, ian King
and Jasmine Shattuck.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
Let's go.
Thank you.

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