October 22, 2021 • 51 mins
On this week’s episode, we have Claudio Antonini who is a career change coach for finance and investment banking professionals.
We cover a lot in this interview, from:
- What prompts finance and investment banking professionals to want to leave their career and what are the challenges in transitioning out of it?
- Typical routes out and common transferable skills they can use
- How to prevent your next career being a bad decision
- Finding more suitable roles within your existing bank
- How to recognise you are burnt out and what to do about it
- The impact of Covid-19 on career change in finance and banking
- When is the ideal time to leave your banking job or career?
The full show notes and videos of other interviews are available at Burnfromwithin.com/interviews, so listen all the way through, and enjoy!
Resources:
- Connect with Claudio Antonini here via his LinkedIn profile and his website is here
- To find out more about prototyping your next career, listen to this episode of the show here
- To hear about long-term career decisions and hear from Jeff Bezon about his regret minimisation framework and how other guests of the show have applied this, listen to my special episode, The Guide to Making Big Decisions, No Regrets here
To book coaching with me, Matt Garrow-Fisher, check out the Burn From Within website here
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt (00:31):
On this week's episode, we have Claudio Antonini, who is a
career change coach for financeand investment banking
professionals.
We covered a lot in thisinterview.
From what prompts, finance, andinvestment banking professionals
to want to leave their career.
And what are the challenges intransitioning out of it?
(00:51):
Typical routes out and commontransferable skills that finance
professionals use.
How to prevent your next careerbeing a bad decision.
Finding more suitable roleswithin your existing bank.
How to recognize that you areburnout and what to do about it.
The impact of COVID-19 on careerchange in finance and banking.
(01:14):
And when is the ideal time toleave your banking job or
career?
The full show notes and videosof other interviews are
available@burnfromwithin.comforward slash interviews so
listen all the way through andenjoy
Matt Garrow-Fisher (01:27):
so Claudio, you know, you're a career change
coach for finance and bankingprofessionals.
Actually, you were in, thebanking profession and, having
your own career change story,like a lot of the guests on the
show told me through a littlebit about your career change
story.
you know, first of all, what wasyour background in finance?
Claudio Antonini (01:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Actually I coach, well thechanges that I've made myself,
so I definitely walk to talk.
so I started at BNP Paribas, inItaly, I'm Italian.
And then, after that I joined,Fiat Chrysler.
So I was in capital markets,treasury.
And that's when I relocated toLondon and after a few years
(02:12):
moved to, British Airways ownerIAG and, in structured finance.
And finally, I moved to SGN,which is the second largest, gas
network in the UK.
Or I became a treasury managerand was managing$6 billion, per
year.
So, my career, Was, it neverfelt right for me, from the
(02:35):
beginning.
but, like a lot of, people thatwork in finance, I was attracted
to, you know big salaries and,looking smart and, all the
things that the majority ofpeople, you know, right after
uni, especially if you go to avery fancy university are
attracted to.
So that's why I started myjourney first in banking and
(02:58):
then in corporate finance.
But it was, when I was atBritish airways that I had a
massive burnout, because, it wasway too much pressure.
And as I wasn't reallypassionate about it, it was
really hard for me to cope.
it would have been harderanyways, but, not being really
passionate about it made itworse.
(03:20):
And that was a blessing indisguise, really, because I
realized that, I had to makechanges and that's when my
change started.
So I moved out of London, closeto Gatwick for a smaller
company.
and, and I started thinking,what I wanted to do next.
So in a way, I took a steppingstone role.
(03:42):
And that gave me time to think,also hire a career coach and,
started thinking about the nextsteps.
And so that's when I realizedthat, for me, just slouching on
a laptop wasn't enough, withoutinteracting with people,
obviously COVID, didn't help.
I needed, you know, deeperconnections, not just, you know,
(04:03):
dealing with a spreadsheet allday, but interacting with
people.
And that's what I love aboutcoaching now.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (04:10):
Yeah.
There's an interesting backstoryClaudio.
What do you think are some ofthe kind of common challenges?
I mean, you specialize in acareer change for finance
professionals or investmentbankers.
What do you think is some of theunique challenges in those
professions of transitioning outof, these careers, but even
(04:34):
before that, What are the, someof the kind of top reasons why
some of your clients leave thecareer as well?
Claudio Antonini (04:42):
Yeah.
So, those are very specific asinvestment banking.
in particular is a very toughjob in terms of, the hours.
So a lot of my clients work,like 15 hours a day or more.
And, sometimes we have sessionson a Saturday, maybe at 11:00 AM
(05:03):
and they just, woke up becausethey need to recover.
And then right after thesession, they need to go back to
working.
Okay.
So I would say long hours.
so obviously this has a majorimpact on all the other areas of
their life.
So for example, they don't havetime to socialise as much.
(05:24):
so I know of people that go outfor drinks and while on the
tube, they get a message andthey need to go back home to
work.
they don't have time to date.
they, they are, constantly onthe cusp of being burned out.
And sometimes they do get there.
So some of my clients have takena sick leave.
(05:45):
and so the, the, the challengesare primarily related to how
time consuming it is.
Secondly, it's a lack ofpurpose.
So, a lot of millennials, canstand anymore, you know, just
working to make rich peoplericher.
And also, we're talking aboutindividuals that have spent, the
(06:05):
majority of them has spentseveral, grand to, go to the
best universities in the worldand what they do in the end is
very mundane work.
So PowerPoints presentations,especially in the, the, the
first, a few years.
So they don't really don't seethe purpose.
You know, it's working very longhours and, for a job that
(06:28):
doesn't really give themsatisfaction.
What attracts them.
as I mentioned in my story aswell, is that at first, the
money, is really, really good.
And you feel like it compensatesfor everything else.
And then also I think the waythat other people look at you.
So I was talking to, a clientthe other day.
(06:49):
And there were saying, but, youknow, I worked at JP Morgan, in
London.
Everybody wants to be me, andthat, so that status, it's also
something that for them, it'sreally hard to give.
So basically to answer yourquestions, what are the
challenges, for them in theircurrent role.
So why they want to leave?
It's because they have nocontrol over their life, their
(07:12):
schedule, they're exhausted andthey realise that money's not
everything.
What are the challenges for themto leave?
are related to the, the, goldencage.
So they make a lot of money.
So they know that if they quit,they most likely won't be making
the same amount of money.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (07:31):
I think there's a huge sunk cost that
you talked about, in finance.
I mean, first of all, You know,investing a lot of, time and
energy in building your career.
That also includes sometimesquite expensive university
educations people, you know,people's families, kind of
willing for them to, to make alot of money and, you know, make
(07:55):
them proud.
All of that to walk away fromall of that is, there's a lot of
peer pressure to stay in it.
And you talked about ego as wellearlier.
I know from, from my friends, ininvestment banking, in
particular walking away from acareer, even if you're burning
out and you hate your own happythat, that loss of a, of, status
(08:19):
and ego, to some extent, it'sdifficult to swallow, not to
mention.
You know, how do you walk awayfrom the highest salaries and
what can you do, in place ofthat?
This phrase, golden, did you saygolden cage?
Really interesting kind ofmetaphor too, to bring up.
(08:40):
How do finance professionalsstart to find out ways to, to
chisel out of this golden cage?
Is it like a, a quick exit andit's very, very painful, are
there kind of transitions tomake it a smoother way out, like
what can people do in thisprofession?
Claudio Antonini (09:01):
So obviously everybody's different.
What I've see with my clients isthat there are, there are
different paths, so some people,So first and foremost is working
on their self, self limitingbeliefs.
So obviously they don't reallyneed so much money.
(09:22):
Okay.
So, it's just that the it'sabout realizing that first.
so.
Everybody wants to havefinancial stability.
It's just that in, I think ininvestment banking, making six
figure salaries is normalized.
So they come to me telling methat they can change absolutely
(09:45):
everything except for the amountof money that they make, which
would be the equivalent of,someone who's overweight, going
to a personal trainer saying,you know, I can change
absolutely everything excepteating, you know, bacon every
single morning, you know, and apizza for dinner.
Okay.
It's exactly the same thing.
That's what got you into theproblem because you were so
(10:06):
addicted to making so much moneythat you've been doing
everything so that I think isalways the first issue.
And, and also the other one isacceptance because according to
what you said as well, sunkcosts are big.
cause, imagine.
imagine the family of someonefrom Morocco that could only
(10:27):
send, one kid to university toan expensive university, how
much pressure, you know, thereisn't that person and the return
on the investment for the wholefamily.
so I think that beforeaddressing the career issue,
there are always self limitingbeliefs.
Once those are addressed, interms of careers, I don't
(10:50):
believe in just, I don't believethat everybody can just, you
know, just switch from onecareer to another.
because, some people have kids,some people have financial
commitments.
so what I, what I think is thebest approach is to, have a
vision, develop a vision forwhere you want to be, then
become really realistic andunderstand where you can get.
(11:14):
And even there, figure outstepping stones.
Okay.
So for example, when I realizedthat finance wasn't for me
anymore, I still worked infinance for basically another
two years before.
I became a coach.
so you know that you can buildup that financial security.
you can start, under youunderstand that you're not your
(11:34):
job, because that is anotherthing, you know, like you said,
losing your face in banking issomething that, it's not easy
for people, you know?
So they think even if they movewithin finance, that, their
peers will think they're stupid.
this is I'm quoting some of myclients or that they were not
good enough.
(11:54):
Okay.
so obviously the impostersyndrome and people pleasing are
big issues in, in banking.
Okay.
Otherwise, people wouldn't work15 hours a day if they could say
no, In terms of, exitstrategies, so there are some
that are more typical ofinvestment banking, so usually
private equity, hedge funds, butsome people, don't want to go,
(12:16):
let's say the more mainstream,route.
So they prefer, maybe stayingwithin finance, but not
investment banking.
So startups, investor relations,capital markets, but within a
corporation, and then somepeople decide that, realize that
finance wasn't for them.
so maybe they launch their ownbusiness.
(12:37):
and maybe they stay in theircurrent job.
you know, they start developinga business idea and, so with the
intent in a few years to, toswitch, So there are multiple
ways in which people can, exit,I think, as this, there's no
such thing as the perfect careerand it's not as important what
(12:58):
you do as much as what, how youfeel when you do it.
I think that knowing alreadythat there is a way out and you
see all the main stones and the,the, the different jobs that you
can do even before you get tothe dream job that you have.
I think it makes them feelalready like they've started as
(13:19):
much as when you go to the gymfor the first time and you have
a personal trainer and you seethat there is a schedule,
there's a pattern you startfeeling good, even before you
lose weight.
You, you start feeling muchbetter right away, because you
know that there is a way out.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (13:33):
I mean, do you think there are, common
transferable skills that financeprofessionals in particular, and
investment bank professionalshave that they do take to their
new careers?
Claudio Antonini (13:46):
Yes, absolutely.
first of all, broadly speakingthe mindset.
Okay.
We're talking about people thatwent to the best universities in
the world and were topperformers and also were top
performers in investmentbanking.
So there is what the so-calledhalo effect, so that if you're
really good at something, thenyou, you can spread that over
(14:09):
different, different parts ofyour life.
More specifically I think, Whatthey do in investment banking
all day is solving problems forclients okay.
At a, at a speed and withaccuracy that are not so common.
So that is what everybody wants.
(14:31):
You know, the ability of, fixingproblems coming up with creative
ideas.
Those are amazing transferableskills that can be used.
On one point on, on skills.
I don't, cause I, I don't gettoo stuck on skills because I
think that when you have clearwhere you want to go, I don't
(14:53):
buy the assumption that if youdon't have the right skills, you
will never get it.
Cause it's 2021.
with COVID any expert, course,is at literally at our
fingertips.
So I think is justprocrastination when people
stress too much.
Oh.
You know, cause I don't havethat skill.
I don't know.
I don't have that experience.
(15:14):
Everything is possible if youknow where you're going.
Okay.
When I changed from being acorporate finance manager to a
coach, obviously the two jobswere quite different.
So I was lacking some skills.
however, that didn't stop mebecause I was getting closer to
(15:36):
myself in a way.
So where we start with myclients is.
Well first, let's make sure thatyou know who you are, because if
you don't know who you are, thenhow do you know what you want?
How can you get fulfilled?
Because of fulfillment isknowing who you are, knowing
what your beliefs are, and thenaligning your job with those.
(15:56):
So if you don't know who youare, then potentially can never
be fulfilled because you don'tknow what you're chasing.
And then the skill set is just,you know, bridging that gap and
I think that, yeah, maybe somepeople might take longer.
Some people don't, but if youleverage on your natural
abilities, the, the learningcurves are not as steep as when
(16:18):
you're doing something that youdon't enjoy.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (16:21):
So how do finance professionals find out
who they are?
How do they discover that?
Is there a process, like a setof questions they can ask
themselves, like, what's that,what are those first steps to
start?
this self-awareness process ofwho they are.
Claudio Antonini (16:40):
That's a great question.
I think the first step isacceptance.
so.
The first step is the hardestwith my clients because they
tell me that it's hard for themto accept that they're not in
the right career and I totallyget it because for me, it was
really, really hard.
I was in denial for many years.
(17:02):
So self-awareness is, is key.
So understanding that there's nopoint in continuing on a path
that is not for you.
but it might take time.
So sometimes I, I see potentialclients and they become clients
months after our first talk,because it takes some time to
(17:25):
actually accept that they wantto change.
So the actual, this selfdiscovery, yes.
coaching helps with that becausecoaching is a learning
technology.
So you can learn about yourself.
So the coach asking questions,challenging you at the same
time, supporting you.
understanding your bodylanguage, your tone, and holding
(17:47):
up the mirror to reflect backwhat neutrally, they see helps
the person to actually, youknow, see the box.
So if you want to think out ofthe box, you first need to see
it, right.
So seeing, what's happening intheir life, the stories that
they tell themselves, and thenthat's when they start,
(18:10):
understanding that those arestories.
So they start going deeper.
so not everything that our braintells us is true.
And once they get that, thenthey, I see that.
It kinda, they want to get toknow themselves better.
And they remember that maybe inhigh school.
they really didn't like, youknow, maths, their parents made
(18:33):
them study, scientific subjectsbecause, you know, they always
believed that those will get youa better employment.
Maybe you did, but then, ifyou're burned out and you need
to get sick leave and you, youknow, you want to quit, maybe,
it wasn't for you.
So they, they want to discoverwhat their assets are.
(18:55):
So not just their skills, youknow, all their experiences,
their talents their, theirvalues.
They want to discover all ofthose because they realize that
that is the best place to startbecause in 2021, we have so many
careers that it will be likegoing to a restaurant and having
a 50 page menu to pick, youknow, so understanding who you
(19:19):
are, gives you the best.
viewpoint on what to do next,because you will be leveraging
on your natural abilities ratherthan, you know, just do what
everybody else is doing likethey usually do when in
university.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (19:36):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's actuallyquite rare for, for any
professional, but you know,finance professionals in
particular, they go through alot of training education and
it's, there's not really a gapor a break from, from school
through to education, through,to a finance career and then
more training to actually.
(19:57):
Stop and think, and of like,what is it that I would want to
do?
What, what, what do I naturallyenergized towards?
what are my natural strengths,weaknesses, what am I actual
passions like that I'vedeveloped over my life?
And that chance to kind of, thisis why I love coaching to, to
(20:18):
reflect through a coach, all ofthose things with structured
exercises, maybe psychometrictests and other forms of
evaluation, I think is,particularly helpful with, with
the finance profession, becausethere's just not an opportunity
to do that normally.
In terms of networking.
(20:38):
I know finance, lot of financeorganizations are quite large
organizations.
You mentioned you were workingfor a multi-billion dollar
organization managing about 6billion pounds in debt.
That, that means, you know, alot of these organizations have
a lot of employees and, thereare vast networks in finance for
(20:59):
people that, kind oftransitioning out of their job,
are there opportunities withintheir organizations, or indeed,
to tap into their existingfinance network to find, new
careers or, jobs that are morealigned with who they are or
(21:21):
does find finance quiteresistant once someone wants to
get out.
But they're kind of forced outand that's how, that's how it
is.
What, what is your kind of, takeon, on being, getting support
from the finance network?
Claudio Antonini (21:40):
I think that in, especially in investment
banking, human resources are,very conscious that.
You know, people may easily,burnout actually.
Earlier in the year there's beenan uproar at Goldman Sachs in
the U S some analysts havepublished a presentation, about,
(22:01):
you know, the.
silly work hours and howexhausted that were.
So, I hear a lot of, clientsthat are trying to, move within
the same company, to a, to ateam where they think that they
will do better.
maybe this, like I said before,this might be a stepping stone.
But you know, at least they feelbetter.
(22:24):
At least they keep learning the,they want to go back to work.
And, and if they're in a toxicenvironment, at least they're in
a, in a better environment.
So that...
cos you know, if you are not inthe right head space, it's also
hard to have career coaching tothink about what else you want
(22:45):
to do because you're so stressedout.
so yeah.
The, I see that clients try tostay within the company, at
least in the short run so thatthey can have that, that
headspace.
And then networking isessential.
So I actually do suggest thatthey, after they...
it's clear what they want to donext.
(23:06):
They use their own network sothat they can, you know, make it
happen.
because networking, as we weretalking about skills before,
kinda, trumps the skill set, asyou can put yourself right in
front of the decision-makers,you know, they, and they, like,
you.
you still need to have the main,the main skills, but you know, w
(23:29):
with networking, you can, youcan tell your story.
you can explain what happened.
You can connect with people, andthat's when the magic happens,
you know, because, becausepeople will, maybe they have a
similar work experience, youknow, and they will be willing
to give you a chance.
So, yeah, I think networking isessential.
(23:50):
and the trying to stay in theorganization.
If, if you, maybe you want tostay in finance or if your, job,
is really toxic, it's probablybest so that, you know, it can
be quicker rather than, jobhunting, externally.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (24:06):
Yeah.
And you, you talked about, HRdepartments in finance.
They're, they're very aware of,you know, staff burnout.
A lot of, lot of, employees workvery long hours naturally that
they're all going to be somepotential health issues, in the
industry, of course, What canpeople do?
First of all actually, how canpeople recognize symptoms of
(24:27):
burnout?
Cause you mentioned that you hada burnout, in your role, what
was, what were the kinds ofsymptoms that you noticed and
how, what are some other kind oftypical symptoms of burnout that
maybe some of your clients have,or even your colleagues and
network have experienced.
(24:48):
and what can people do aboutthose symptoms?
can they go to their HRdepartment?
And if they can, is thereanything that can be done
internally before, maybe drasticaction is, is needed rather than
completely quitting, that careeror their job?
Claudio Antonini (25:08):
Yeah.
So, when, when I had, myburnout, I, I was very, very
anxious.
So for two months before I quit,I was really anxious.
I was given.
Way too many projects.
not just in terms of, you know,the, the volume, but in terms
(25:29):
of, how stressful they were.
I was, I was still junior and Iwas, and I was given projects
that require someone way moreexperienced than me.
So for short, anxiety, so Iremember sometimes sitting at my
desk having like palpitations,because I felt like everything
depended on me.
(25:50):
and then, difficulty sleeping.
And, and eating, and thinkingabout something that is not
work, because you're so obsessedand, and, you know, because
you're, you're burning, youknow, the, the fumes, the, the,
the, the last few resources, andmaybe again, there is a bit of
denial because maybe you'verealized that it's not for you.
(26:13):
You don't want to fail, and youkeep, you know, you keep
running, running, running, eventhough.
You know, there there's nothingelse to do.
So for me, it was, you know,yeah.
Feeling, feeling like animposter because, in, in
finance, like you werementioning before, emotions are
not really, a thing, you know,so you have a work, hard play,
(26:36):
hard approach, so people don'tcare about, you know, if you're
in flow, if you feel good whenyou do something.
That is not important.
You know, what's important isyou get the job done.
So sometimes you dismiss yourfeelings, your emotions, because
those are not important.
You know, the, the next, forsome of my clients, the next
(26:58):
bonus is what matters, is, youknow, the, the, the next
dividend to shareholders, thenext client.
So.
The, the burn out has clearsymptoms that are related to
exhaustion.
And, and I think that it'sphysical exhaustion, but also
mental exhaustion.
(27:19):
So, feeling like you have noenergy at the end of the day.
So I would get home feelingdestroyed and my day was
basically just work and weekendswere spent trying to make up for
that, but still worrying a lot.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (27:35):
Regarding, what people can do like I mean
can they, can they tell their HRdepartment that they are having,
symptoms of burnout and like canorganizations, are organizations
sympathetic to that.
what can, what can people dowhen they do experience these
symptoms?
Claudio Antonini (27:53):
In my opinion, they are, but it's just, well,
what they say, you know, it'sjust a lip work, because, they,
they show when, when, whenyou're in the, in the corporate
world or banking world and youhave maybe trainers coming over
or they show this graph that Ipersonally hate, which shows
that if you're not, under enoughstress, that is really bad
(28:18):
because you're not, you know,simulated, so you're, you, you
get bored.
And so that good stress iscalled EU stress, but then if it
gets too much, you get intodistress, which is the bad
stress and that can lead toburnout.
So the reason why I hate thisconcept, is, is because this was
probably applicable to.
(28:39):
You know, workers in the 20thcentury, in a conveyor belt.
And actually this is where thisgraph comes for because I've
researched.
so if you're getting, you know,the, most competitive people
that you can find that go to thebest universities, and if they
don't go to the bestuniversities, they're more
competitive because they need tomake up for it.
(29:00):
Selling this idea to companiesjust means that they will put
more pressure and more pressureand more pressure.
So I think that burnouts arepart of the job description to
be totally honest.
This is what I think, to answeryour question, what I've seen my
clients do is they take sickleave.
which I believe is for a coupleof weeks.
(29:23):
So.
I think it's just, you know, agasp of air and then you try to
do something else.
they, they, the, the banks, theway they've reacted to the, the
Goldman Sachs uproar was byincreasing salaries.
So that is a clear sign that,they don't really want to make
(29:45):
changes.
They, they, they might say it.
So maybe, you know, you have, noemails on, on Saturdays or, or
Sunday things like that.
But then what I see with myclients is that the client, so
the corporation, you know, couldask anything and they, the
(30:06):
bankers want to impress thecorporation.
So they will work as hard aspossible, you know?
And so I don't really thinkthat, that the, that the banks
themselves have an incentive to,to change, you know, they, they
don't, they, they will beattracting people for a very
(30:26):
long time because they offer, inthe U S from the very first
year, you've got a six figuresalary.
So maybe you're 22, 23, and youmake a six figure salary.
Maybe your father didn't make asix figure salary by the end of
their career.
Or your mother.
So, I think that they will beattract, always be attracting
people.
So the question is that do theyreally need to fix the problem?
Matt Garrow-Fisher (30:49):
Yeah.
So it's, it's a, aninstitutional structuring thing,
I guess, you know, if peoplecan't handle the burnout issues,
they'll, they'll be morerecruits.
And, and actually there's anincentive to stay because maybe
pay will go up if you, if youstay on and keep your experience
within the organization.
(31:12):
how do people, I guess,Transition then like the actual
process of transition.
what are some of the typicalobstacles that finance
professionals face during yourtransition and, How do they
handle them with a coach orwithout?
Claudio Antonini (31:32):
Yeah, so I think, like we said before, I
think the, the first one is,Money.
so, usually I invite my clientsto, develop a budget because
what I, what I see is thatusually the, the figure that
they originally give me, it'snever backed up by any data.
(31:52):
so they say, oh, okay, well, Icould, the very least I can
accept is this amount.
And then when you ask.
Okay.
So how do you know?
It's more like a feeling ratherthan, you know, money that they
really, really need, or theyreally want for that matter.
So I think that is key,addressing that, that one first.
(32:15):
Then in terms of transitioning,it is about, taking time to
think of what they want to do.
because as there are so manylabels on roles.
So the way that, for example, aninvestment bankers sees other
roles affects the way that myclients who want to quit will
(32:38):
see those roles.
So maybe they're overlooking,you know, some, some roles just
because they don't have a goodreputation within their own
industry, which, doesn't makeany sense because obviously if
you, if you're still working ininvestment banking, what would
you think that somewhere else,is better?
You obviously still have thosevalues.
(33:00):
So, unless you want to quit, youthink that that is the best
place to be.
Okay.
So sometimes I invite them toexplore with, for example, with
prototyping other other roles.
Okay.
so if you want to, work indigital marketing, then, why
don't you take up a course andtry to, you know, build your,
(33:23):
some, some digital marketingmaterials.
You try to, work maybe withfriends, you know, figuring out
a way with prototyping.
W whoever's not familiar withthat means bringing in some
elements of that job into yourdaily life so that you can see
how you feel about it so thatyou avoid the, oh, I love
(33:43):
cooking.
So I quit my career and open arestaurant and fail after the
two months.
I, I did prototyping myself.
so I prototyped, opening a pizzaplace, as I'm Italian.
and then, I prototyped atteaching and so.
They, they struggle with money,they struggle with
(34:03):
understanding, what's next.
and another thing that theystruggle with is, being
realistic in terms of howquickly it can happen.
So people, I think they need tobe clear that.
If, you know, it can take timeto change careers because if
you've been for even 5, 5, 6years in that specific sector,
(34:28):
especially the sector that paysa lot.
And you want, a really highsalary could take time before
you, before you transition now,or it may take time because you
need to muster the courage to,launching your own business and
developing a business plan, yourbusiness idea.
Okay.
So that's, that's what I did.
For example, it takes time and,and I noticed that sometime.
(34:54):
yeah, the, their expectationsare okay.
Well, there must be a serviceout there, like Amazon, you
know, where I just, speak withsomeone and I, I know what to
do.
And then maybe after a monthI'll be doing that and I'll be
the happiest I've ever been.
It doesn't really work likethat.
At least not my service.
Okay.
So, there is there's work to dothere's introspection.
(35:17):
There is, budgeting.
There is, understanding what'srealistic.
So dreaming big, but at the sametime, understanding out of that
dream, what's really realisticconsidering, where you're in in
your life.
So if you have kids, forexample, it could take you
longer than if you don't.
if you are moving completelyoutside of finance, it could
(35:37):
take you a little bit longerthan if you were staying within.
So these are the, these are thetypical, challenges.
And the last one is about thefact that they have very little
time available.
So, that, that's why, what Imake sure they realize at the
beginning is that.
(35:57):
You, you still need to have, youknow, the time to do the
introspection, to, to prototypeand to think carefully, because
what I tell my clients is thatthe worst thing that can happen
is that you end up in a job thatyou hate even more than the one
that you're leading.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (36:15):
So true, so true.
And I'm so glad you brought up,prototyping.
I'm a big fan of it as well.
and, you know, take my clientsthrough it.
I've done a, certificationcalled designing your life by a
couple of Stanford professorsand they, they read the book.
They, they, they live byprototyping for any listeners.
(36:36):
I recorded a whole episode onprototyping with a, another
career change coach Fiona Reith.
So please check that out if you,if you haven't, already come
across the concept, I wanted totalk about Claudio COVID and the
effects of the pandemic on theprofession of finance and
(36:57):
investment banking.
How do you think it's impacted,First of all, career change in
the profession, with, you know,a lot of pressure when, when
bankers are forced to workremotely, you know, you've,
you've heard the stories of, youknow, people working even longer
hours, but at home becausethey're being monitored by their
(37:19):
bosses.
cause they can't be monitored asthey were before in, in the
actual banks.
What's been the effect of, ofCOVID on and and that kind of
scenario on bankers, on financeprofessionals.
And how has that impacted careerchange?
Have you seen like an influx ofclients and more people that
(37:41):
have been prompted to leave theprofession as a result of this
pandemic?
Claudio Antonini (37:46):
Yes I have so Covid has given time to think
for a lot of people.
And, and like you said, in forinvestment banking and financial
professional, financialprofessionals, it wasn't good
because the, the, the linesbetween, you know, private life
(38:06):
and your profession became even,more blurry.
So.
Yes.
A lot of people have left as a,as a consequence, in a way was,
like for my burnout, a blessingin disguise because people could
realise that that was really notfor them.
Also in 2020, bonuses were not,the best.
(38:27):
so, I had some clients tellingme that, you know, for them it
was, it was a trauma, which Iknow that for the majority of
people, this could seem, verybizarre, but if you basically,
invest your whole life in yourwork, and the only thing that
your employer can really giveyou is money at the end of the
(38:47):
day.
And you don't even get that.
You feel that, you know, you'vereally wasted your, your, your
year, you know, your, your lifefor that year.
So, I think there have been alot of, the burnouts have have
increased, as a, as a result andalso the need for change.
And actually I did my changeduring the pandemic as well, so
(39:12):
I was one of them.
so I think.
You know, we, we were allpushed, to our limits and
eventually you, you startthinking how sustainable that
is.
That actually one of my mainquestions to my clients, how
sustainable is your life?
If you're feeling exhausted at27, at 30, how.
(39:37):
How sustainable do you thinkthat is?
How many years do you think youhad ahead of you with that
lifestyle?
Matt Garrow-Fisher (39:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I've been reflecting onanother interview.
I did with a previous,investment banker, Max Vishnev,
I think it was episode two ofThe Burn From Within show.
And he left, banking.
he basically got a pay out, and,and.
He, he, it wasn't a payout.
(40:05):
He actually, got the opportunityto get an MBA.
and so he took time out.
And during that, that time out,which was paid for that
education was paid for, he, heactually had that time to
reflect and went to Spain andfrom America.
And, that was the beginning ofhis kind of career change.
(40:25):
If you think about someone like,Jeff Bezos from, from Amazon, he
worked for a hedge fund inManhattan.
and he talked about, you know,he very well paid.
I think he was senior vicepresident at the time.
And.
In investment banking, there'sbig bonuses.
And certain times of the year tokeep people, you know, going,
(40:46):
if, if they stay for theirbonus, then you know, they get
their bonus and then there'smore pay rises and all of that
kind of stuff.
Is there an ideal time to, toget out of banking?
Like when, you know, you want toleave.
really be interested to hearyour thoughts on that.
Cause I think, you know, forpeople that know they want to
(41:06):
leave and maybe they know whatthey want to do as well, it's
like almost a waiting game, butyou never quite sure.
When is the best time like, isthere, is there any advice on,
on, on that exit strategy, Iguess.
Claudio Antonini (41:23):
That's a great question.
And everybody's always asking,should I wait another year?
Cause you know, they're gonnamake me associate and I get the
signing bonus and you know,maybe it's gonna get better
because associates might notwork as, as, as much as as
analysts.
So usually what I see is thatafter year two, analysts or,
(41:47):
looking around, you know, andthen usually after the second
year of, the associate years aswell, the point is it's much
easier to, To leave, when you'remore junior or more senior.
Okay.
Because when you're very junior,you're relatively cheap when
you're very experienced, moresenior, you bring, experience
(42:11):
with you.
So that's very valuable.
so what's harder usually is for,you know, analysts for
associates and vice presidents.
So the point is.
It's, you know, again, the, sunkcost fallacy, you know, so you
stay a little bit longer.
And even though you don't likeit because you want, you don't
(42:35):
want to lose your investment.
And in a way it's like, you'reyou're gambling.
So I lost I'll keep gambling sothat maybe I can make up for it,
you know?
And is it really worth it?
You know that that's the point.
I think there are assumptionsabout, I have some clients
telling me, oh, I can make lessthan this.
(42:57):
if I don't make this much, well,what, what does it say about me
compared to others?
So the point is not really aboutthe career.
The point is really what'sunderneath, you know?
so I think leave when you.
understand that the risk ofstaying is higher than the risk
(43:18):
of leaving.
That's the sweet spot for anycareer change.
Okay.
And for any change in life,really?
Because if you didn't have areason to change, then you'll
never do it because the brain,whatever, whatever is new is, is
a, is a threat until provenotherwise.
So I think it's a matter ofbeing honest and, and realizing
(43:42):
that, is this bad enough for me?
So, am I unfulfilled?
Am I burnt out?
I didn't get what I, what Iwanted.
If I continue for another year,how will that year be?
If I think, well, you know, I'llsurvive then maybe it's not the
right time because changerequires effort.
(44:05):
So I, I usually work with peoplethat.
You know, they don't seethemselves working in the same
role for the next year becausethat gives, you know, the, the,
the highest probability ofsuccess, to them.
And I discourage starting acareer change, journey, at least
(44:28):
with me to those people that...
the two scenarios staying orleaving are not that different
because I'll know that when, youknow, when, when things get
tough, they won't, they won't dowhat's necessary.
you know, changing careers.
This is my, my view is hard,psychologically, primarily
(44:52):
because you need to detach youridentity to who you've been for
so many years and be really,really strong and build
something from scratch.
And if you, you know, if youdon't really want it, then
you'll just be wasting your timeand, and you might, you might
fail because of that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (45:11):
Yeah, I, I totally agree with that as well.
And one kind of concept fromfinance and I think probably
bankers and financeprofessionals will be familiar
with, with this concept oflong-term thinking.
And actually what's the longtermview.
And you know, when you look atcertain stocks, crypto, for
(45:32):
example, it's going up and downas a very volatile market could
be some big gains who knows.
When you kind of look at thefundamentals of anything that
you invest in, and look at thelong-term fundamentals in the
history as well.
Those kinds of fluctuations andvolatilities that you might be
experiencing now.
If you, if you kind of projectthat forward and project your,
(45:54):
as you said forward for a yearJeff Bezos, his decision to
leave, his hedge fund, heimagined himself(at) 80.
And he imagined himself, youknow, making that decision to
start a, an internet company.
And what would life be like if,he reached 80 doing that and
would he have regretted thatdecision, versus you know, being
(46:18):
80 and having a career infinance and would he have
regretted staying, staying infinance?
And I think if you projectyourself far enough into the
future, whether it's a year, Iwould probably tend to say, you
know, longer term, you know, thethinking about your whole life,
because ultimately you, youknow, we we've talked about life
(46:40):
happiness, life fulfillment andprojecting yourself, you know,
right to the end of your lifeand thinking well, is this
something that I, if I continueon this path, will I want to
continue and be that person willI have regrets?
I think that's a usefulframework to have for any
professional, but, butparticularly finance and, and
Jeff Bezos, he talks about,regret minimization theory.
(47:03):
I actually talk about it onagain, another episode called
big decision, no regrets.
but yeah, for any of thoseinterested, I'll, I'll include
that in these show notes todayas well.
Claudio, it's been a reallyfascinating conversation.
thank you so much.
Where can people find you get intouch with you?
for coaching.
if they are professionals thatare looking for time out of a
(47:26):
banking and finance?
Claudio Antonini (47:28):
Yeah, so they, they can find me on LinkedIn.
so that's where they can alsosee my posts on, you know,
burnout, and investment bankingrelated topics.
so, we can, we can leave thelink below.
And they can send me a privatemessage.
There's my email address.
there's my website and yeah.
(47:49):
And we can have a, a freestrategy call and we can see,
you know, if I can help themout.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (47:56):
Awesome.
And all of those links toClaudio's, details will be in
the show notes for the showtoday.
Claudio, my final question.
I can see you're someone that,is passionate about what you do.
I'm helping financeprofessionals to change, to, to
have more fulfilling lives ifthey want to get out of the
profession.
(48:17):
You certainly have a morebalanced life, from, from the
life that you had before, and,you know, passionate and, and
also this is, you know, quite apurpose for you.
There's a lot of meaning behindall the work you do.
I call that magical mix ofpassion, purpose, and balance to
burn from within.
What is the one thing Claudio,that has made the biggest
(48:39):
difference for your life to burnfrom within?
Claudio Antonini (48:44):
Helping others..
So using my natural abilitiesand my skills to help others for
me, as well, gives me thatpurpose, you know, to go through
the tough days to go through,what I'm scared of, and to push
myself, because I, I like, usingwhat I know to, to help other
(49:06):
people.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (49:07):
Yeah.
And I think it really goes backto what you said, like right
near the start of ourconversation about, you know,
who you are and, and, and beingaware of who you are, what you
do, what you believe in, youknow, marrying those three
things up, it leads tofulfillment and, it's clear.
(49:29):
You know, helping people is whoyou are Claudio.
And there was a, I'm guessing,from having various
conversations with you, amismatch of who you were when
you were in banking and financeand, and just that realization
through extensive.
you know, coaching andself-awareness and this journey
(49:50):
that you've been on, but that,that awareness of helping others
is a core part of who you areand living that now in this
career.
I think that's testament.
I can understand exactly howthat makes the biggest
difference for you to burn fromwithin.
so Claudio, thank you for afascinating, and I think useful
(50:12):
conversation for any finance andbanking professionals who are
listening and indeed any otherprofessionals.
the structure is very similar,from, from the story that
Claudio shared today.
Claudio Antonini (50:25):
Thank you for having me.
Matt (50:26):
Wow.
We shared a lot of differenttips in that conversation on
solving the challenges of careerchange out of finance.
Many of which are applicable toother professions too.
From taking time to discover whoyou really are with coaching
being an effective way to dothis.
To having acceptance of leavingbehind sunk costs and the
(50:48):
metaphor of continuing to gamblewhen you've lost money.
The realization that highsalaries are not a precondition
for happiness and shouldn'tlimit your career options.
If you're unhappy orunfulfilled.
And it can be a long butworthwhile journey to build up
your salary in a new career andso much more.
(51:10):
Check out the show notes forlinks to connect directly with
Claudio and me.
And if you enjoyed this talk.
I go and leave a review on ratethis podcast.com forward slash
burn from within this rate, thispodcast.com forward slash bend
from.
But then.
Stay updated with more inspiringinterviews by hitting the
subscribe.
Or follow button now on yourplayer until next time and live
(51:32):
with passion purpose and balanceand burn from within
On this week's episode, we have Claudio Antonini, who is a
career change coach for financeand investment banking
professionals.
We covered a lot in thisinterview.
From what prompts, finance, andinvestment banking professionals
to want to leave their career.
And what are the challenges intransitioning out of it?
(00:51):
Typical routes out and commontransferable skills that finance
professionals use.
How to prevent your next careerbeing a bad decision.
Finding more suitable roleswithin your existing bank.
How to recognize that you areburnout and what to do about it.
The impact of COVID-19 on careerchange in finance and banking.
(01:14):
And when is the ideal time toleave your banking job or
career?
The full show notes and videosof other interviews are
available@burnfromwithin.comforward slash interviews so
listen all the way through andenjoy
Matt Garrow-Fisher (01:27):
so Claudio, you know, you're a career change
coach for finance and bankingprofessionals.
Actually, you were in, thebanking profession and, having
your own career change story,like a lot of the guests on the
show told me through a littlebit about your career change
story.
you know, first of all, what wasyour background in finance?
Claudio Antonini (01:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Actually I coach, well thechanges that I've made myself,
so I definitely walk to talk.
so I started at BNP Paribas, inItaly, I'm Italian.
And then, after that I joined,Fiat Chrysler.
So I was in capital markets,treasury.
And that's when I relocated toLondon and after a few years
(02:12):
moved to, British Airways ownerIAG and, in structured finance.
And finally, I moved to SGN,which is the second largest, gas
network in the UK.
Or I became a treasury managerand was managing$6 billion, per
year.
So, my career, Was, it neverfelt right for me, from the
(02:35):
beginning.
but, like a lot of, people thatwork in finance, I was attracted
to, you know big salaries and,looking smart and, all the
things that the majority ofpeople, you know, right after
uni, especially if you go to avery fancy university are
attracted to.
So that's why I started myjourney first in banking and
(02:58):
then in corporate finance.
But it was, when I was atBritish airways that I had a
massive burnout, because, it wasway too much pressure.
And as I wasn't reallypassionate about it, it was
really hard for me to cope.
it would have been harderanyways, but, not being really
passionate about it made itworse.
(03:20):
And that was a blessing indisguise, really, because I
realized that, I had to makechanges and that's when my
change started.
So I moved out of London, closeto Gatwick for a smaller
company.
and, and I started thinking,what I wanted to do next.
So in a way, I took a steppingstone role.
(03:42):
And that gave me time to think,also hire a career coach and,
started thinking about the nextsteps.
And so that's when I realizedthat, for me, just slouching on
a laptop wasn't enough, withoutinteracting with people,
obviously COVID, didn't help.
I needed, you know, deeperconnections, not just, you know,
(04:03):
dealing with a spreadsheet allday, but interacting with
people.
And that's what I love aboutcoaching now.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (04:10):
Yeah.
There's an interesting backstoryClaudio.
What do you think are some ofthe kind of common challenges?
I mean, you specialize in acareer change for finance
professionals or investmentbankers.
What do you think is some of theunique challenges in those
professions of transitioning outof, these careers, but even
(04:34):
before that, What are the, someof the kind of top reasons why
some of your clients leave thecareer as well?
Claudio Antonini (04:42):
Yeah.
So, those are very specific asinvestment banking.
in particular is a very toughjob in terms of, the hours.
So a lot of my clients work,like 15 hours a day or more.
And, sometimes we have sessionson a Saturday, maybe at 11:00 AM
(05:03):
and they just, woke up becausethey need to recover.
And then right after thesession, they need to go back to
working.
Okay.
So I would say long hours.
so obviously this has a majorimpact on all the other areas of
their life.
So for example, they don't havetime to socialise as much.
(05:24):
so I know of people that go outfor drinks and while on the
tube, they get a message andthey need to go back home to
work.
they don't have time to date.
they, they are, constantly onthe cusp of being burned out.
And sometimes they do get there.
So some of my clients have takena sick leave.
(05:45):
and so the, the, the challengesare primarily related to how
time consuming it is.
Secondly, it's a lack ofpurpose.
So, a lot of millennials, canstand anymore, you know, just
working to make rich peoplericher.
And also, we're talking aboutindividuals that have spent, the
(06:05):
majority of them has spentseveral, grand to, go to the
best universities in the worldand what they do in the end is
very mundane work.
So PowerPoints presentations,especially in the, the, the
first, a few years.
So they don't really don't seethe purpose.
You know, it's working very longhours and, for a job that
(06:28):
doesn't really give themsatisfaction.
What attracts them.
as I mentioned in my story aswell, is that at first, the
money, is really, really good.
And you feel like it compensatesfor everything else.
And then also I think the waythat other people look at you.
So I was talking to, a clientthe other day.
(06:49):
And there were saying, but, youknow, I worked at JP Morgan, in
London.
Everybody wants to be me, andthat, so that status, it's also
something that for them, it'sreally hard to give.
So basically to answer yourquestions, what are the
challenges, for them in theircurrent role.
So why they want to leave?
It's because they have nocontrol over their life, their
(07:12):
schedule, they're exhausted andthey realise that money's not
everything.
What are the challenges for themto leave?
are related to the, the, goldencage.
So they make a lot of money.
So they know that if they quit,they most likely won't be making
the same amount of money.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (07:31):
I think there's a huge sunk cost that
you talked about, in finance.
I mean, first of all, You know,investing a lot of, time and
energy in building your career.
That also includes sometimesquite expensive university
educations people, you know,people's families, kind of
willing for them to, to make alot of money and, you know, make
(07:55):
them proud.
All of that to walk away fromall of that is, there's a lot of
peer pressure to stay in it.
And you talked about ego as wellearlier.
I know from, from my friends, ininvestment banking, in
particular walking away from acareer, even if you're burning
out and you hate your own happythat, that loss of a, of, status
(08:19):
and ego, to some extent, it'sdifficult to swallow, not to
mention.
You know, how do you walk awayfrom the highest salaries and
what can you do, in place ofthat?
This phrase, golden, did you saygolden cage?
Really interesting kind ofmetaphor too, to bring up.
(08:40):
How do finance professionalsstart to find out ways to, to
chisel out of this golden cage?
Is it like a, a quick exit andit's very, very painful, are
there kind of transitions tomake it a smoother way out, like
what can people do in thisprofession?
Claudio Antonini (09:01):
So obviously everybody's different.
What I've see with my clients isthat there are, there are
different paths, so some people,So first and foremost is working
on their self, self limitingbeliefs.
So obviously they don't reallyneed so much money.
(09:22):
Okay.
So, it's just that the it'sabout realizing that first.
so.
Everybody wants to havefinancial stability.
It's just that in, I think ininvestment banking, making six
figure salaries is normalized.
So they come to me telling methat they can change absolutely
(09:45):
everything except for the amountof money that they make, which
would be the equivalent of,someone who's overweight, going
to a personal trainer saying,you know, I can change
absolutely everything excepteating, you know, bacon every
single morning, you know, and apizza for dinner.
Okay.
It's exactly the same thing.
That's what got you into theproblem because you were so
(10:06):
addicted to making so much moneythat you've been doing
everything so that I think isalways the first issue.
And, and also the other one isacceptance because according to
what you said as well, sunkcosts are big.
cause, imagine.
imagine the family of someonefrom Morocco that could only
(10:27):
send, one kid to university toan expensive university, how
much pressure, you know, thereisn't that person and the return
on the investment for the wholefamily.
so I think that beforeaddressing the career issue,
there are always self limitingbeliefs.
Once those are addressed, interms of careers, I don't
(10:50):
believe in just, I don't believethat everybody can just, you
know, just switch from onecareer to another.
because, some people have kids,some people have financial
commitments.
so what I, what I think is thebest approach is to, have a
vision, develop a vision forwhere you want to be, then
become really realistic andunderstand where you can get.
(11:14):
And even there, figure outstepping stones.
Okay.
So for example, when I realizedthat finance wasn't for me
anymore, I still worked infinance for basically another
two years before.
I became a coach.
so you know that you can buildup that financial security.
you can start, under youunderstand that you're not your
(11:34):
job, because that is anotherthing, you know, like you said,
losing your face in banking issomething that, it's not easy
for people, you know?
So they think even if they movewithin finance, that, their
peers will think they're stupid.
this is I'm quoting some of myclients or that they were not
good enough.
(11:54):
Okay.
so obviously the impostersyndrome and people pleasing are
big issues in, in banking.
Okay.
Otherwise, people wouldn't work15 hours a day if they could say
no, In terms of, exitstrategies, so there are some
that are more typical ofinvestment banking, so usually
private equity, hedge funds, butsome people, don't want to go,
(12:16):
let's say the more mainstream,route.
So they prefer, maybe stayingwithin finance, but not
investment banking.
So startups, investor relations,capital markets, but within a
corporation, and then somepeople decide that, realize that
finance wasn't for them.
so maybe they launch their ownbusiness.
(12:37):
and maybe they stay in theircurrent job.
you know, they start developinga business idea and, so with the
intent in a few years to, toswitch, So there are multiple
ways in which people can, exit,I think, as this, there's no
such thing as the perfect careerand it's not as important what
(12:58):
you do as much as what, how youfeel when you do it.
I think that knowing alreadythat there is a way out and you
see all the main stones and the,the, the different jobs that you
can do even before you get tothe dream job that you have.
I think it makes them feelalready like they've started as
(13:19):
much as when you go to the gymfor the first time and you have
a personal trainer and you seethat there is a schedule,
there's a pattern you startfeeling good, even before you
lose weight.
You, you start feeling muchbetter right away, because you
know that there is a way out.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (13:33):
I mean, do you think there are, common
transferable skills that financeprofessionals in particular, and
investment bank professionalshave that they do take to their
new careers?
Claudio Antonini (13:46):
Yes, absolutely.
first of all, broadly speakingthe mindset.
Okay.
We're talking about people thatwent to the best universities in
the world and were topperformers and also were top
performers in investmentbanking.
So there is what the so-calledhalo effect, so that if you're
really good at something, thenyou, you can spread that over
(14:09):
different, different parts ofyour life.
More specifically I think, Whatthey do in investment banking
all day is solving problems forclients okay.
At a, at a speed and withaccuracy that are not so common.
So that is what everybody wants.
(14:31):
You know, the ability of, fixingproblems coming up with creative
ideas.
Those are amazing transferableskills that can be used.
On one point on, on skills.
I don't, cause I, I don't gettoo stuck on skills because I
think that when you have clearwhere you want to go, I don't
(14:53):
buy the assumption that if youdon't have the right skills, you
will never get it.
Cause it's 2021.
with COVID any expert, course,is at literally at our
fingertips.
So I think is justprocrastination when people
stress too much.
Oh.
You know, cause I don't havethat skill.
I don't know.
I don't have that experience.
(15:14):
Everything is possible if youknow where you're going.
Okay.
When I changed from being acorporate finance manager to a
coach, obviously the two jobswere quite different.
So I was lacking some skills.
however, that didn't stop mebecause I was getting closer to
(15:36):
myself in a way.
So where we start with myclients is.
Well first, let's make sure thatyou know who you are, because if
you don't know who you are, thenhow do you know what you want?
How can you get fulfilled?
Because of fulfillment isknowing who you are, knowing
what your beliefs are, and thenaligning your job with those.
(15:56):
So if you don't know who youare, then potentially can never
be fulfilled because you don'tknow what you're chasing.
And then the skill set is just,you know, bridging that gap and
I think that, yeah, maybe somepeople might take longer.
Some people don't, but if youleverage on your natural
abilities, the, the learningcurves are not as steep as when
(16:18):
you're doing something that youdon't enjoy.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (16:21):
So how do finance professionals find out
who they are?
How do they discover that?
Is there a process, like a setof questions they can ask
themselves, like, what's that,what are those first steps to
start?
this self-awareness process ofwho they are.
Claudio Antonini (16:40):
That's a great question.
I think the first step isacceptance.
so.
The first step is the hardestwith my clients because they
tell me that it's hard for themto accept that they're not in
the right career and I totallyget it because for me, it was
really, really hard.
I was in denial for many years.
(17:02):
So self-awareness is, is key.
So understanding that there's nopoint in continuing on a path
that is not for you.
but it might take time.
So sometimes I, I see potentialclients and they become clients
months after our first talk,because it takes some time to
(17:25):
actually accept that they wantto change.
So the actual, this selfdiscovery, yes.
coaching helps with that becausecoaching is a learning
technology.
So you can learn about yourself.
So the coach asking questions,challenging you at the same
time, supporting you.
understanding your bodylanguage, your tone, and holding
(17:47):
up the mirror to reflect backwhat neutrally, they see helps
the person to actually, youknow, see the box.
So if you want to think out ofthe box, you first need to see
it, right.
So seeing, what's happening intheir life, the stories that
they tell themselves, and thenthat's when they start,
(18:10):
understanding that those arestories.
So they start going deeper.
so not everything that our braintells us is true.
And once they get that, thenthey, I see that.
It kinda, they want to get toknow themselves better.
And they remember that maybe inhigh school.
they really didn't like, youknow, maths, their parents made
(18:33):
them study, scientific subjectsbecause, you know, they always
believed that those will get youa better employment.
Maybe you did, but then, ifyou're burned out and you need
to get sick leave and you, youknow, you want to quit, maybe,
it wasn't for you.
So they, they want to discoverwhat their assets are.
(18:55):
So not just their skills, youknow, all their experiences,
their talents their, theirvalues.
They want to discover all ofthose because they realize that
that is the best place to startbecause in 2021, we have so many
careers that it will be likegoing to a restaurant and having
a 50 page menu to pick, youknow, so understanding who you
(19:19):
are, gives you the best.
viewpoint on what to do next,because you will be leveraging
on your natural abilities ratherthan, you know, just do what
everybody else is doing likethey usually do when in
university.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (19:36):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's actuallyquite rare for, for any
professional, but you know,finance professionals in
particular, they go through alot of training education and
it's, there's not really a gapor a break from, from school
through to education, through,to a finance career and then
more training to actually.
(19:57):
Stop and think, and of like,what is it that I would want to
do?
What, what, what do I naturallyenergized towards?
what are my natural strengths,weaknesses, what am I actual
passions like that I'vedeveloped over my life?
And that chance to kind of, thisis why I love coaching to, to
(20:18):
reflect through a coach, all ofthose things with structured
exercises, maybe psychometrictests and other forms of
evaluation, I think is,particularly helpful with, with
the finance profession, becausethere's just not an opportunity
to do that normally.
In terms of networking.
(20:38):
I know finance, lot of financeorganizations are quite large
organizations.
You mentioned you were workingfor a multi-billion dollar
organization managing about 6billion pounds in debt.
That, that means, you know, alot of these organizations have
a lot of employees and, thereare vast networks in finance for
(20:59):
people that, kind oftransitioning out of their job,
are there opportunities withintheir organizations, or indeed,
to tap into their existingfinance network to find, new
careers or, jobs that are morealigned with who they are or
(21:21):
does find finance quiteresistant once someone wants to
get out.
But they're kind of forced outand that's how, that's how it
is.
What, what is your kind of, takeon, on being, getting support
from the finance network?
Claudio Antonini (21:40):
I think that in, especially in investment
banking, human resources are,very conscious that.
You know, people may easily,burnout actually.
Earlier in the year there's beenan uproar at Goldman Sachs in
the U S some analysts havepublished a presentation, about,
(22:01):
you know, the.
silly work hours and howexhausted that were.
So, I hear a lot of, clientsthat are trying to, move within
the same company, to a, to ateam where they think that they
will do better.
maybe this, like I said before,this might be a stepping stone.
But you know, at least they feelbetter.
(22:24):
At least they keep learning the,they want to go back to work.
And, and if they're in a toxicenvironment, at least they're in
a, in a better environment.
So that...
cos you know, if you are not inthe right head space, it's also
hard to have career coaching tothink about what else you want
(22:45):
to do because you're so stressedout.
so yeah.
The, I see that clients try tostay within the company, at
least in the short run so thatthey can have that, that
headspace.
And then networking isessential.
So I actually do suggest thatthey, after they...
it's clear what they want to donext.
(23:06):
They use their own network sothat they can, you know, make it
happen.
because networking, as we weretalking about skills before,
kinda, trumps the skill set, asyou can put yourself right in
front of the decision-makers,you know, they, and they, like,
you.
you still need to have the main,the main skills, but you know, w
(23:29):
with networking, you can, youcan tell your story.
you can explain what happened.
You can connect with people, andthat's when the magic happens,
you know, because, becausepeople will, maybe they have a
similar work experience, youknow, and they will be willing
to give you a chance.
So, yeah, I think networking isessential.
(23:50):
and the trying to stay in theorganization.
If, if you, maybe you want tostay in finance or if your, job,
is really toxic, it's probablybest so that, you know, it can
be quicker rather than, jobhunting, externally.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (24:06):
Yeah.
And you, you talked about, HRdepartments in finance.
They're, they're very aware of,you know, staff burnout.
A lot of, lot of, employees workvery long hours naturally that
they're all going to be somepotential health issues, in the
industry, of course, What canpeople do?
First of all actually, how canpeople recognize symptoms of
(24:27):
burnout?
Cause you mentioned that you hada burnout, in your role, what
was, what were the kinds ofsymptoms that you noticed and
how, what are some other kind oftypical symptoms of burnout that
maybe some of your clients have,or even your colleagues and
network have experienced.
(24:48):
and what can people do aboutthose symptoms?
can they go to their HRdepartment?
And if they can, is thereanything that can be done
internally before, maybe drasticaction is, is needed rather than
completely quitting, that careeror their job?
Claudio Antonini (25:08):
Yeah.
So, when, when I had, myburnout, I, I was very, very
anxious.
So for two months before I quit,I was really anxious.
I was given.
Way too many projects.
not just in terms of, you know,the, the volume, but in terms
(25:29):
of, how stressful they were.
I was, I was still junior and Iwas, and I was given projects
that require someone way moreexperienced than me.
So for short, anxiety, so Iremember sometimes sitting at my
desk having like palpitations,because I felt like everything
depended on me.
(25:50):
and then, difficulty sleeping.
And, and eating, and thinkingabout something that is not
work, because you're so obsessedand, and, you know, because
you're, you're burning, youknow, the, the fumes, the, the,
the, the last few resources, andmaybe again, there is a bit of
denial because maybe you'verealized that it's not for you.
(26:13):
You don't want to fail, and youkeep, you know, you keep
running, running, running, eventhough.
You know, there there's nothingelse to do.
So for me, it was, you know,yeah.
Feeling, feeling like animposter because, in, in
finance, like you werementioning before, emotions are
not really, a thing, you know,so you have a work, hard play,
(26:36):
hard approach, so people don'tcare about, you know, if you're
in flow, if you feel good whenyou do something.
That is not important.
You know, what's important isyou get the job done.
So sometimes you dismiss yourfeelings, your emotions, because
those are not important.
You know, the, the next, forsome of my clients, the next
(26:58):
bonus is what matters, is, youknow, the, the, the next
dividend to shareholders, thenext client.
So.
The, the burn out has clearsymptoms that are related to
exhaustion.
And, and I think that it'sphysical exhaustion, but also
mental exhaustion.
(27:19):
So, feeling like you have noenergy at the end of the day.
So I would get home feelingdestroyed and my day was
basically just work and weekendswere spent trying to make up for
that, but still worrying a lot.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (27:35):
Regarding, what people can do like I mean
can they, can they tell their HRdepartment that they are having,
symptoms of burnout and like canorganizations, are organizations
sympathetic to that.
what can, what can people dowhen they do experience these
symptoms?
Claudio Antonini (27:53):
In my opinion, they are, but it's just, well,
what they say, you know, it'sjust a lip work, because, they,
they show when, when, whenyou're in the, in the corporate
world or banking world and youhave maybe trainers coming over
or they show this graph that Ipersonally hate, which shows
that if you're not, under enoughstress, that is really bad
(28:18):
because you're not, you know,simulated, so you're, you, you
get bored.
And so that good stress iscalled EU stress, but then if it
gets too much, you get intodistress, which is the bad
stress and that can lead toburnout.
So the reason why I hate thisconcept, is, is because this was
probably applicable to.
(28:39):
You know, workers in the 20thcentury, in a conveyor belt.
And actually this is where thisgraph comes for because I've
researched.
so if you're getting, you know,the, most competitive people
that you can find that go to thebest universities, and if they
don't go to the bestuniversities, they're more
competitive because they need tomake up for it.
(29:00):
Selling this idea to companiesjust means that they will put
more pressure and more pressureand more pressure.
So I think that burnouts arepart of the job description to
be totally honest.
This is what I think, to answeryour question, what I've seen my
clients do is they take sickleave.
which I believe is for a coupleof weeks.
(29:23):
So.
I think it's just, you know, agasp of air and then you try to
do something else.
they, they, the, the banks, theway they've reacted to the, the
Goldman Sachs uproar was byincreasing salaries.
So that is a clear sign that,they don't really want to make
(29:45):
changes.
They, they, they might say it.
So maybe, you know, you have, noemails on, on Saturdays or, or
Sunday things like that.
But then what I see with myclients is that the client, so
the corporation, you know, couldask anything and they, the
(30:06):
bankers want to impress thecorporation.
So they will work as hard aspossible, you know?
And so I don't really thinkthat, that the, that the banks
themselves have an incentive to,to change, you know, they, they
don't, they, they will beattracting people for a very
(30:26):
long time because they offer, inthe U S from the very first
year, you've got a six figuresalary.
So maybe you're 22, 23, and youmake a six figure salary.
Maybe your father didn't make asix figure salary by the end of
their career.
Or your mother.
So, I think that they will beattract, always be attracting
people.
So the question is that do theyreally need to fix the problem?
Matt Garrow-Fisher (30:49):
Yeah.
So it's, it's a, aninstitutional structuring thing,
I guess, you know, if peoplecan't handle the burnout issues,
they'll, they'll be morerecruits.
And, and actually there's anincentive to stay because maybe
pay will go up if you, if youstay on and keep your experience
within the organization.
(31:12):
how do people, I guess,Transition then like the actual
process of transition.
what are some of the typicalobstacles that finance
professionals face during yourtransition and, How do they
handle them with a coach orwithout?
Claudio Antonini (31:32):
Yeah, so I think, like we said before, I
think the, the first one is,Money.
so, usually I invite my clientsto, develop a budget because
what I, what I see is thatusually the, the figure that
they originally give me, it'snever backed up by any data.
(31:52):
so they say, oh, okay, well, Icould, the very least I can
accept is this amount.
And then when you ask.
Okay.
So how do you know?
It's more like a feeling ratherthan, you know, money that they
really, really need, or theyreally want for that matter.
So I think that is key,addressing that, that one first.
(32:15):
Then in terms of transitioning,it is about, taking time to
think of what they want to do.
because as there are so manylabels on roles.
So the way that, for example, aninvestment bankers sees other
roles affects the way that myclients who want to quit will
(32:38):
see those roles.
So maybe they're overlooking,you know, some, some roles just
because they don't have a goodreputation within their own
industry, which, doesn't makeany sense because obviously if
you, if you're still working ininvestment banking, what would
you think that somewhere else,is better?
You obviously still have thosevalues.
(33:00):
So, unless you want to quit, youthink that that is the best
place to be.
Okay.
So sometimes I invite them toexplore with, for example, with
prototyping other other roles.
Okay.
so if you want to, work indigital marketing, then, why
don't you take up a course andtry to, you know, build your,
(33:23):
some, some digital marketingmaterials.
You try to, work maybe withfriends, you know, figuring out
a way with prototyping.
W whoever's not familiar withthat means bringing in some
elements of that job into yourdaily life so that you can see
how you feel about it so thatyou avoid the, oh, I love
(33:43):
cooking.
So I quit my career and open arestaurant and fail after the
two months.
I, I did prototyping myself.
so I prototyped, opening a pizzaplace, as I'm Italian.
and then, I prototyped atteaching and so.
They, they struggle with money,they struggle with
(34:03):
understanding, what's next.
and another thing that theystruggle with is, being
realistic in terms of howquickly it can happen.
So people, I think they need tobe clear that.
If, you know, it can take timeto change careers because if
you've been for even 5, 5, 6years in that specific sector,
(34:28):
especially the sector that paysa lot.
And you want, a really highsalary could take time before
you, before you transition now,or it may take time because you
need to muster the courage to,launching your own business and
developing a business plan, yourbusiness idea.
Okay.
So that's, that's what I did.
For example, it takes time and,and I noticed that sometime.
(34:54):
yeah, the, their expectationsare okay.
Well, there must be a serviceout there, like Amazon, you
know, where I just, speak withsomeone and I, I know what to
do.
And then maybe after a monthI'll be doing that and I'll be
the happiest I've ever been.
It doesn't really work likethat.
At least not my service.
Okay.
So, there is there's work to dothere's introspection.
(35:17):
There is, budgeting.
There is, understanding what'srealistic.
So dreaming big, but at the sametime, understanding out of that
dream, what's really realisticconsidering, where you're in in
your life.
So if you have kids, forexample, it could take you
longer than if you don't.
if you are moving completelyoutside of finance, it could
(35:37):
take you a little bit longerthan if you were staying within.
So these are the, these are thetypical, challenges.
And the last one is about thefact that they have very little
time available.
So, that, that's why, what Imake sure they realize at the
beginning is that.
(35:57):
You, you still need to have, youknow, the time to do the
introspection, to, to prototypeand to think carefully, because
what I tell my clients is thatthe worst thing that can happen
is that you end up in a job thatyou hate even more than the one
that you're leading.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (36:15):
So true, so true.
And I'm so glad you brought up,prototyping.
I'm a big fan of it as well.
and, you know, take my clientsthrough it.
I've done a, certificationcalled designing your life by a
couple of Stanford professorsand they, they read the book.
They, they, they live byprototyping for any listeners.
(36:36):
I recorded a whole episode onprototyping with a, another
career change coach Fiona Reith.
So please check that out if you,if you haven't, already come
across the concept, I wanted totalk about Claudio COVID and the
effects of the pandemic on theprofession of finance and
(36:57):
investment banking.
How do you think it's impacted,First of all, career change in
the profession, with, you know,a lot of pressure when, when
bankers are forced to workremotely, you know, you've,
you've heard the stories of, youknow, people working even longer
hours, but at home becausethey're being monitored by their
(37:19):
bosses.
cause they can't be monitored asthey were before in, in the
actual banks.
What's been the effect of, ofCOVID on and and that kind of
scenario on bankers, on financeprofessionals.
And how has that impacted careerchange?
Have you seen like an influx ofclients and more people that
(37:41):
have been prompted to leave theprofession as a result of this
pandemic?
Claudio Antonini (37:46):
Yes I have so Covid has given time to think
for a lot of people.
And, and like you said, in forinvestment banking and financial
professional, financialprofessionals, it wasn't good
because the, the, the linesbetween, you know, private life
(38:06):
and your profession became even,more blurry.
So.
Yes.
A lot of people have left as a,as a consequence, in a way was,
like for my burnout, a blessingin disguise because people could
realise that that was really notfor them.
Also in 2020, bonuses were not,the best.
(38:27):
so, I had some clients tellingme that, you know, for them it
was, it was a trauma, which Iknow that for the majority of
people, this could seem, verybizarre, but if you basically,
invest your whole life in yourwork, and the only thing that
your employer can really giveyou is money at the end of the
(38:47):
day.
And you don't even get that.
You feel that, you know, you'vereally wasted your, your, your
year, you know, your, your lifefor that year.
So, I think there have been alot of, the burnouts have have
increased, as a, as a result andalso the need for change.
And actually I did my changeduring the pandemic as well, so
(39:12):
I was one of them.
so I think.
You know, we, we were allpushed, to our limits and
eventually you, you startthinking how sustainable that
is.
That actually one of my mainquestions to my clients, how
sustainable is your life?
If you're feeling exhausted at27, at 30, how.
(39:37):
How sustainable do you thinkthat is?
How many years do you think youhad ahead of you with that
lifestyle?
Matt Garrow-Fisher (39:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I've been reflecting onanother interview.
I did with a previous,investment banker, Max Vishnev,
I think it was episode two ofThe Burn From Within show.
And he left, banking.
he basically got a pay out, and,and.
He, he, it wasn't a payout.
(40:05):
He actually, got the opportunityto get an MBA.
and so he took time out.
And during that, that time out,which was paid for that
education was paid for, he, heactually had that time to
reflect and went to Spain andfrom America.
And, that was the beginning ofhis kind of career change.
(40:25):
If you think about someone like,Jeff Bezos from, from Amazon, he
worked for a hedge fund inManhattan.
and he talked about, you know,he very well paid.
I think he was senior vicepresident at the time.
And.
In investment banking, there'sbig bonuses.
And certain times of the year tokeep people, you know, going,
(40:46):
if, if they stay for theirbonus, then you know, they get
their bonus and then there'smore pay rises and all of that
kind of stuff.
Is there an ideal time to, toget out of banking?
Like when, you know, you want toleave.
really be interested to hearyour thoughts on that.
Cause I think, you know, forpeople that know they want to
(41:06):
leave and maybe they know whatthey want to do as well, it's
like almost a waiting game, butyou never quite sure.
When is the best time like, isthere, is there any advice on,
on, on that exit strategy, Iguess.
Claudio Antonini (41:23):
That's a great question.
And everybody's always asking,should I wait another year?
Cause you know, they're gonnamake me associate and I get the
signing bonus and you know,maybe it's gonna get better
because associates might notwork as, as, as much as as
analysts.
So usually what I see is thatafter year two, analysts or,
(41:47):
looking around, you know, andthen usually after the second
year of, the associate years aswell, the point is it's much
easier to, To leave, when you'remore junior or more senior.
Okay.
Because when you're very junior,you're relatively cheap when
you're very experienced, moresenior, you bring, experience
(42:11):
with you.
So that's very valuable.
so what's harder usually is for,you know, analysts for
associates and vice presidents.
So the point is.
It's, you know, again, the, sunkcost fallacy, you know, so you
stay a little bit longer.
And even though you don't likeit because you want, you don't
(42:35):
want to lose your investment.
And in a way it's like, you'reyou're gambling.
So I lost I'll keep gambling sothat maybe I can make up for it,
you know?
And is it really worth it?
You know that that's the point.
I think there are assumptionsabout, I have some clients
telling me, oh, I can make lessthan this.
(42:57):
if I don't make this much, well,what, what does it say about me
compared to others?
So the point is not really aboutthe career.
The point is really what'sunderneath, you know?
so I think leave when you.
understand that the risk ofstaying is higher than the risk
(43:18):
of leaving.
That's the sweet spot for anycareer change.
Okay.
And for any change in life,really?
Because if you didn't have areason to change, then you'll
never do it because the brain,whatever, whatever is new is, is
a, is a threat until provenotherwise.
So I think it's a matter ofbeing honest and, and realizing
(43:42):
that, is this bad enough for me?
So, am I unfulfilled?
Am I burnt out?
I didn't get what I, what Iwanted.
If I continue for another year,how will that year be?
If I think, well, you know, I'llsurvive then maybe it's not the
right time because changerequires effort.
(44:05):
So I, I usually work with peoplethat.
You know, they don't seethemselves working in the same
role for the next year becausethat gives, you know, the, the,
the highest probability ofsuccess, to them.
And I discourage starting acareer change, journey, at least
(44:28):
with me to those people that...
the two scenarios staying orleaving are not that different
because I'll know that when, youknow, when, when things get
tough, they won't, they won't dowhat's necessary.
you know, changing careers.
This is my, my view is hard,psychologically, primarily
(44:52):
because you need to detach youridentity to who you've been for
so many years and be really,really strong and build
something from scratch.
And if you, you know, if youdon't really want it, then
you'll just be wasting your timeand, and you might, you might
fail because of that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (45:11):
Yeah, I, I totally agree with that as well.
And one kind of concept fromfinance and I think probably
bankers and financeprofessionals will be familiar
with, with this concept oflong-term thinking.
And actually what's the longtermview.
And you know, when you look atcertain stocks, crypto, for
(45:32):
example, it's going up and downas a very volatile market could
be some big gains who knows.
When you kind of look at thefundamentals of anything that
you invest in, and look at thelong-term fundamentals in the
history as well.
Those kinds of fluctuations andvolatilities that you might be
experiencing now.
If you, if you kind of projectthat forward and project your,
(45:54):
as you said forward for a yearJeff Bezos, his decision to
leave, his hedge fund, heimagined himself(at) 80.
And he imagined himself, youknow, making that decision to
start a, an internet company.
And what would life be like if,he reached 80 doing that and
would he have regretted thatdecision, versus you know, being
(46:18):
80 and having a career infinance and would he have
regretted staying, staying infinance?
And I think if you projectyourself far enough into the
future, whether it's a year, Iwould probably tend to say, you
know, longer term, you know, thethinking about your whole life,
because ultimately you, youknow, we we've talked about life
(46:40):
happiness, life fulfillment andprojecting yourself, you know,
right to the end of your lifeand thinking well, is this
something that I, if I continueon this path, will I want to
continue and be that person willI have regrets?
I think that's a usefulframework to have for any
professional, but, butparticularly finance and, and
Jeff Bezos, he talks about,regret minimization theory.
(47:03):
I actually talk about it onagain, another episode called
big decision, no regrets.
but yeah, for any of thoseinterested, I'll, I'll include
that in these show notes todayas well.
Claudio, it's been a reallyfascinating conversation.
thank you so much.
Where can people find you get intouch with you?
for coaching.
if they are professionals thatare looking for time out of a
(47:26):
banking and finance?
Claudio Antonini (47:28):
Yeah, so they, they can find me on LinkedIn.
so that's where they can alsosee my posts on, you know,
burnout, and investment bankingrelated topics.
so, we can, we can leave thelink below.
And they can send me a privatemessage.
There's my email address.
there's my website and yeah.
(47:49):
And we can have a, a freestrategy call and we can see,
you know, if I can help themout.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (47:56):
Awesome.
And all of those links toClaudio's, details will be in
the show notes for the showtoday.
Claudio, my final question.
I can see you're someone that,is passionate about what you do.
I'm helping financeprofessionals to change, to, to
have more fulfilling lives ifthey want to get out of the
profession.
(48:17):
You certainly have a morebalanced life, from, from the
life that you had before, and,you know, passionate and, and
also this is, you know, quite apurpose for you.
There's a lot of meaning behindall the work you do.
I call that magical mix ofpassion, purpose, and balance to
burn from within.
What is the one thing Claudio,that has made the biggest
(48:39):
difference for your life to burnfrom within?
Claudio Antonini (48:44):
Helping others..
So using my natural abilitiesand my skills to help others for
me, as well, gives me thatpurpose, you know, to go through
the tough days to go through,what I'm scared of, and to push
myself, because I, I like, usingwhat I know to, to help other
(49:06):
people.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (49:07):
Yeah.
And I think it really goes backto what you said, like right
near the start of ourconversation about, you know,
who you are and, and, and beingaware of who you are, what you
do, what you believe in, youknow, marrying those three
things up, it leads tofulfillment and, it's clear.
(49:29):
You know, helping people is whoyou are Claudio.
And there was a, I'm guessing,from having various
conversations with you, amismatch of who you were when
you were in banking and financeand, and just that realization
through extensive.
you know, coaching andself-awareness and this journey
(49:50):
that you've been on, but that,that awareness of helping others
is a core part of who you areand living that now in this
career.
I think that's testament.
I can understand exactly howthat makes the biggest
difference for you to burn fromwithin.
so Claudio, thank you for afascinating, and I think useful
(50:12):
conversation for any finance andbanking professionals who are
listening and indeed any otherprofessionals.
the structure is very similar,from, from the story that
Claudio shared today.
Claudio Antonini (50:25):
Thank you for having me.
Matt (50:26):
Wow.
We shared a lot of differenttips in that conversation on
solving the challenges of careerchange out of finance.
Many of which are applicable toother professions too.
From taking time to discover whoyou really are with coaching
being an effective way to dothis.
To having acceptance of leavingbehind sunk costs and the
(50:48):
metaphor of continuing to gamblewhen you've lost money.
The realization that highsalaries are not a precondition
for happiness and shouldn'tlimit your career options.
If you're unhappy orunfulfilled.
And it can be a long butworthwhile journey to build up
your salary in a new career andso much more.
(51:10):
Check out the show notes forlinks to connect directly with
Claudio and me.
And if you enjoyed this talk.
I go and leave a review on ratethis podcast.com forward slash
burn from within this rate, thispodcast.com forward slash bend
from.
But then.
Stay updated with more inspiringinterviews by hitting the
subscribe.
Or follow button now on yourplayer until next time and live
(51:32):
with passion purpose and balanceand burn from within
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