March 4, 2025 • 48 mins
In this fiery episode, I talk to operations strategist Nikki McKnight to break down the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs make with operations and hiring.
Nikki delivers sharp insights on why most business owners approach systems, hiring, and delegation all wrong — and what to do instead. Like, ACTUAL advice.
From avoiding "bitch eating crackers" moments in business to understanding the true role of operations (which, SPOILER ALERT, even a lot of operators are getting confused), this episode is packed with truth bombs, strategy, and no-BS advice.
Meet Nikki:
Nikki McKnight (she/her) is an operations and systems strategist for creatives who want to develop operations & systems that create industry-leading experiences for their clients.
With over 15 years in operations, Nikki's superpower is making the complex simple, whether she's building high-performing teams, upgrading communication processes, or quietly geeking out over experience design.
When she’s not orchestrating logistical magic, she reads queer romance novels, builds Lego sets, and co-hosts the romance podcast First Dates & Soulmates —because successful millennials need hobbies too, right?
Connect with Nikki:
- Newsletter: https://theopsshop.biz/fafo/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikkimcknight
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamnikkimck/
- Podcast: First Dates & Soulmates https://firstdatesandsoulmates.substack.com/
- Her Freebie: https://theopsshop.biz/28-questions
Love what you heard? Let’s stay connected!
Subscribe to my newsletter for bold insights on leadership, strategy, and building your legacy — straight to your inbox every week.
Follow me on LinkedIn for more no-nonsense advice on leading with power and purpose.
And if you’re ready to dive even deeper, grab a copy of my book Bite-Sized Blasphemy and ignite your inner fire to do life and business your way.
The Business Blasphemy Podcast is sponsored by Corporate Rehab® Strategic Consulting.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Business Blasphemy Podcast,
where we question the sacredtruths of the online business
space and the reverence withwhich they're held.
I'm your host, sarah Khanspeaker, strategic consultant
and BS busting badass.
Join me each week as wechallenge the norms, trends and
overall bullshit status quo ofentrepreneurship to uncover what
it really takes to build thebusiness that you want to build
(00:23):
in a way that honors you, yourlife and your vision for what's
possible, and maybe piss off afew gurus along the way.
So if you're ready to commitbusiness blasphemy, let's do it.
Hello, hello, blasphemers.
I am so pleased to welcome afellow Canuck that's Canadian.
For those of you who don'tunderstand our vernacular, I
(00:46):
want to welcome Nikki McKnight.
Now, nikki and I have knowneach other kind of formally,
informally, deeply and notdeeply for quite some time now.
I don't even remember how wekind of came into each other's
orbit.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I think it's been four or five years, at least it
has been.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And I love Nikki and I am actually surprised and
ashamed that she has not beenhere sooner.
Nikki was on.
I need a letter.
I mean complaint to the manager.
Nikki was on my virtual summitlast year God, last year already
, geez, oh no, don't say that.
And I honestly was just likewhy the fuck have you not been
(01:22):
on the podcast?
Like she is a genius.
You will see that as wecontinue this conversation.
But, nikki, why don't youintroduce yourself to the people
and then we'll take it away?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Lovely.
Hello folks.
My name is Nikki.
My pronouns are she, her.
I'm an operations and systemsstrategist.
I own a company called the OpsShop.
We are your one-stop shop forops and it is my goal in life to
FAFO, f-a-f-o.
I'm going to fuck around andfind out, because I believe that
is the beating heart ofoperations and systems.
We're just going to find out,we're going to try things, we're
going to experiment.
(01:52):
I'm trying to bring fun andcuriosity back into operations.
I think it's been there allalong, but for many folks who
think it's just checklists andsoftware and automations and
integrations and so much work,I'm like you have not oh,
soapbox moment, but you know,I'm here to say, to reframe,
(02:13):
like it's about curiosity, andif this is a part of your
business that you ignore, it'syour own damn fault.
You're going to end up whereyou're going to end up, yep.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Now, okay, usually I start with you know, give me
your real origin story.
But just before we hit record,you talked about a bitch eating
crackers moment and I really.
Can we dive into that first?
Yes, okay, set the scene for me.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Okay, so for those of you like not familiar with what
bitch eating crackers is, uh,just to kind of set the stage
for you, it is when there is aperson for whom you feel like a
strong and disproportionatedislike, Like everything this
person does annoys you even itis something as simple as like
eating crackers.
(02:58):
So like if a bitch is eatingcrackers, you're like it's not
actually that they're eatingcrackers, there's something else
, but it's like the crackers isthe thing.
That's like I'm real feel realnitpicky about this.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
There's so many people I feel that way about,
and now I have thank you forthat.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
It was a real bitchy and crackers moment.
So I recently started playingpickleball at my local club.
Yes, pickleball is a huge trendright now.
It's delightful.
It's a delightful game.
I love it.
I've been playing it for acouple of years.
My parents play it verycompetitively.
But you know I joined the cluband you know I go to my first
open session cause I got myrating and I'm like ready to go.
(03:32):
And I kind of go up to theperson organizing the session
and I was like hey, I'm Nikki,it's my first time coming to the
open session.
Like is there anything I shouldknow?
Like how is there anything Ishould know?
Like how does this operate?
What's the flow of things?
And she goes, well, we justlike play.
I'm like okay, well, do we pickour own courts?
Like is there to you know tostart, is there any priority?
Do we go in order of arrival?
For who gets first dibs oncourts?
(03:53):
Like she goes, no, just like go.
And I was like okay, cool, andI just went up and introduced
myself to some people and then,like you know, we're playing
some games.
It's fun, it's nice.
I'm the youngest person there,by about 20 years.
But during the game somebodyfaults, and I didn't call them
on it, but I kind of went up tothem and played.
I stopped and said hey, what'syour name?
I just want to let you knowlike you're edging on an illegal
(04:15):
serve because of where you'rehitting the ball and like that
was it.
We go me aside.
At the end she goes hey, wedon't do that here.
And I was like so sorry, whatdo you mean?
If you want to give somebodycriticism, you need to ask them
first, if you can, because wedon't want to get people angry.
And I was like okay, she goesit's in the handbook.
I'm like no, it's not.
I read the handbook.
(04:35):
None of this is in the handbook.
She's like also, don't call outthe score so loudly.
I was like we are in a hugespace and I can't hear it when
other people are calling thescore.
So I'm calling the score loudly.
Well, you know we don't do this.
And I was like okay.
And she goes and like don'ttell people what they're doing
wrong.
Like, ask them.
And I was like okay, so do youguys not call faults here?
(04:56):
She's like well, there's plentyof people like standing in the
kitchen.
It's a pickleball thing.
Don't worry about it.
You're not supposed to do itand she's like but when we're
just you know, plenty of peopleare doing that I'm like, yeah,
and they should be calling itbecause this is a mid beginner
level, like these are thingsthat are illegal.
People should be made aware ofit.
So, anyway, the tone wasimmediate condescension, and
when y'all condescend, very fewthings make me angry, but if I
(05:21):
feel like you asked, you knowwhat I, what you should know
about the club, I'm just tryingto give you some tips.
I was like yeah, great, thankyou.
And like walked away Cause Iwas like fuck.
And then I came home and Istarted about ranting about oh
my God, like this woman and howshe talked to me and she was
condescending and she keptstopping play to say nobody's in
seconds to serve.
It doesn't matter if you're outof position, right, I know
(05:42):
these things and it just.
Eventually I just went to myfriend Jen.
I'm like I'm having a realbitch eating crackers moment,
because what I realized was thisis one.
I was extremely annoyed, butit's because there was all of
this implicitness around thisculture.
Here's the business lesson fory'all.
Write this down.
But it was this idea that thestage was not set for how to
interact.
(06:09):
There's a resource thatapparently exists that tells you
about this, but it doesn'tactually exist.
None of this is in there andthere wasn't like a dialogue for
how we talk and it felt like Iwas being thrown into like a
fight that was already happening, a culture that was already
happening, and anything I didwas going to be wrong.
Like you know that that thatgift from community when Troy
walks in with the pizzas and theentire room is on fire, like
that's what it kind of felt like, because there was unwritten
(06:30):
rules that had nothing to dowith actual pickleball, but it
was like clearly in the pastthey had had people complain
about like don't tell me what todo, and while that's not what I
was doing at all, it's almostlike the ecosystem became so
overly sensitive to how we talkto people because they were
predicting that of courseeverybody was going to do it
wrong, that when you're new intoa space, you don't know how to
(06:52):
react.
And it's not actually aboutpickleball, it was about the
fact that this culture was soimplicit and it was very
outsider focused that anythingthat happened immediately turned
into a bitch eating crackersmoment for me.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Like for three hours I just kept ranting about it.
I wrote an email to my listabout it this week.
Like that was my newslettertopic this week.
When you have a bitch eatingcrackers moment, what is
actually the thing and how doyou figure it out?
What is actually happening?
Cause it's not a pickleball.
There's something elsehappening.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Right, so okay, so relate this to, because I can
see where you're going.
Relate this to business,particularly when it comes to
operations because I can see youtalk about culture.
Yeah, help us understand theapplication to business, because
it happens in more businessesthan we actually admit.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Absolutely.
I can tell you it's happeningwith every single one of my
clients right now.
Right, like somebody needs toreschedule a meeting.
What do you mean?
You got to change the meeting.
Somebody asks a question aboutwhere something is.
Well, why can't you just findit?
Oh my God, another email.
Why don't you just read yourfreaking emails, right?
Normally, when you look at thosethings by themselves, it's not
a big deal.
But when in your business thereare like unspoken expectations,
(08:08):
when there's unclear roles, ifthere's a general feeling of
chaos, these tiny things startto feel like really personal,
like you're under attack justfor existing.
And the thing I experience alot being an operations and
systems strategist who literallycomes in when people are
feeling stretched andunder-resourced and anxious,
like the very first thing theywant to do is kind of go on the
(08:28):
defensive, like I just haven'thad time to do this, I haven't
had time to fix it.
It's not my zone of genius, I'mnot good at it they immediately
feel under attack becausethey're stretched so thin,
they're overwhelmed, that evensomething as small as an email
or asking a question in yourgeneral vicinity becomes the
bitch eating the crackers,because the thing isn't the
(08:49):
thing, it's the environment thathas created the thing, and it's
been a cascade of things thatit's the one thing that makes
you go.
I fuck all of it all of it.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
So where, where is the tipping point?
At what point does operationsin a business become and it's
like an important thing?
And I point, does operations ina business become an important
thing?
And I mean, I know operationsis always important, but at what
point are you hiring people in?
But then where does thattipping point happen?
Of you know, we thought we weresetting things up, but things
have kind of just taken on alife of their own, et cetera and
(09:20):
so forth.
Where does that happen, yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I feel like it comes down to three key questions, and
the first one is are ouroperations telling us if we are
doing the right and relevantthing?
Because y'all can be busy allday long, but if that thing that
you're doing, the action thatyou're taking, the goal that
you're setting, is not right orrelevant for the direction, we
have a problem there.
The second question is is whatwe're doing getting results?
(09:44):
Because if you don't know howto measure that, or if they're
not getting results, that's alsoa problem.
The third thing is is whatwe're building reliant on a
single person or channel?
Because if decisions are onlymade by one person, if sales
only come in via one channel, ifone person is the only person
(10:05):
who understands how to do acertain thing, then that's a
problem.
So it's not necessarily asingular tipping point that can
turn things into crisis.
It's when those three questionshave an unclear answer or if
they kind of go off the rails,like if you know, are we doing
the right and relevant thing?
I don't know or no, it can be asystems problem.
The right and relevant thing, Idon't know or no?
(10:25):
It can be a systems problem.
Are we getting results?
I don't know or no, then whyare we doing this?
We need to figure out a betterway to get us back to what's
working.
If things are built reliant ona single person or channel, then
that's again a problem becausethe things are going to start
getting overwhelmed.
There's no outflow for that, sonot necessarily a singular
tipping point, but it's thosethree questions.
(10:46):
If there's ambiguity or theanswer is no, then that's when
you need to kind of go back andlook at great what are the
foundational aspects around howwe decide what we're doing and
how we make decisions in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So how does a small business owner prevent something
like that?
Because you'll know you go intoa small business as an
operations professional orwhatever right, you do become
the holder of all of the thingsand there are a lot of people
who get really territorial aboutthat kind of thing.
New team members come in.
They don't want to divest whatthey're doing or it is just a
(11:18):
solopreneur and, like one person, that person leaves.
I mean, the number of timesI've gone into a business and
their operations person has leftand they have the keys to the
kingdom, they have all theinformation, but now you can't
get into it Like it's just it'sjust.
How do you prevent that fromhappening when you're already at
the stage where there's onlyone person who's actually doing
(11:40):
all of the operations stuff?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I feel like that's a problem to give it all over to
one person, like maybe taskexecution, you can do it.
But I think there's differentlevels that we think about
things and you know, at the verybase level it's a task level,
right Like what are we doing?
What are the things that justhave to be checked off?
You know, anybody can really dothose things.
When you're thinking at thatlevel, you can find somebody
(12:03):
fairly quickly.
It's great to havedocumentation for that.
If that person leaves, then itreally becomes a time thing.
You just need to have more timeto do that.
When you don't have that, it'sa separate issue.
But the thing above that isthis idea of process right, it's
how do all of these tasks cometogether and how do we make that
more efficient?
How do we make it moreprofitable?
(12:24):
How do we make it moreproductive?
Above process, we have outcome.
If this process works the wayit's supposed to, what is the
outcome that's going to happen?
And above outcome is value.
If our business achieves allthese outcomes because
ultimately you're going to havea series of outcomes resulting
from a series of processes thenwhat's the value that this
brings to the business?
(12:44):
So when I think about hiring orfiguring out where I need to to
use your word like divest ofsome things.
I don't start at a task level.
I should understand the value.
But I'm starting at an outcomelevel, right.
Like I kind of make a list ofwhat are all the outcomes that
have to occur on a regular basisfor this business to be
(13:05):
successful, then I say great, ifthat is the outcome I am
seeking.
What decisions have to be madeto get us there?
Then I give away thedecision-making and say I'll go
figure out what this task is.
I don't need to know at thatpoint.
Now, if you're one person withone support person, that person
leaves, it's going to be crazy.
It doesn't matter how efficientit is.
(13:26):
Time is going to be an issue.
You're going to have a lack ofa resource.
But I think if you can approachit more from a sense of I'm not
giving away tasks, because thenyou have to manage tasks, you
have to follow up on tasks.
You're still the bottleneck, andthis happens too If you hire an
operations manager.
This is one of my pet peeves iswhen that's one of your first
(13:47):
hires an operations managerManaging what, managing who, and
don't just get a VA.
A VA is not a job title, y'all.
It's a type of business Getmore specific.
But what they try to do is theyput the operations person
between them and the rest of theteam.
I'm like, fantastic, you'vejust created another bottleneck.
It didn't actually relieveanything and if that person
(14:08):
leaves, then you're screwedbecause nothing's been solved.
You've just put yourself backin the place of a bottleneck.
So I think when we start to getoverwhelmed or we're thinking
about how do we kind ofreshuffle what we're doing?
I think it does go back tothose original three key
questions, but it's like stopfocusing on the tasks and start
focusing on the outcomes.
(14:28):
Because when you focus on anoutcome, I think it helps you
simplify things down a littlebit more and it becomes a lot
easier to say sure, I shouldhave an email that goes out
every single week, but that'snot necessarily supporting a
particular outcome.
That is the priority right now.
I'm going to put pause on thatbecause I don't have help to do
(14:50):
it and I can't do it.
Pausing it fantastic.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Then you get to focus in on what is actually going to
help you achieve certainoutcomes.
So how would you say and thismight be a really I don't know
if this is like a loadedquestion or just a really open
question how would you saypeople are outsourcing wrong?
Because I feel like this wholerhetoric around just outsource
it, just outsource it, delegateit to somebody else I feel like
there's not enough context, alot of the time for that advice.
(15:12):
So when we're solopreneursbecause I think primarily that
is who listens to the podcastthey may have like one support
person, but usually it's peoplewho are kind of going solo how
are they outsourcing ordelegating wrong?
How do they need and I knowyou've talked about approaching
it from outcomes versus tasks sowho should be your first hire?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
ideally it's going to be different for every single
company.
Like I would never hire anoperations person first because
I'm competent at that.
It's not where the businessneeds support.
Like I might hire someone inmarketing because I hate it.
I'm not where the businessneeds support.
Like I might hire someone inmarketing because I hate it.
I'm not great with words likewriting.
I struggle with that reallyhard.
Or I might hire someone to docontent editing for me because I
(15:54):
have I'm a perfectionist and itstops me from getting things
done.
So it goes back to what are thethings that need to happen?
Right, if I divide the companyup into sales and marketing, so
front end, everything that isvisible that can bring people to
me and then I break it intodelivery and kind of day-to-day
operations, what are the thingsthat have to happen on a
day-to-day basis to deliver thethings that people have paid for
(16:14):
and keep the business running?
And then more of a financial,legal, admin side, right, this
is the stuff that has to happen,so that I don't get a call from
the government being, hello,this is the government calling,
you are in trouble.
So I look at those three thingsand I say, great, well, what
has to happen in my sales andmarketing for me to think this
is successful.
I have as many clients as Iwant to have at any given time.
(16:36):
People understand what it is Ido.
At the end of the day, that'sall sales and marketing for me
has to do it, because then I canlook at those two things and
say great for me to have as manyclients as I want to at any
given time.
What needs to happen?
Well, I need to be constantlywidening my audience and finding
new people.
I get most of my clients viareferral and that works really
well for me.
So how do I do more of that?
(16:57):
Great, if those are the twothings I know will support that
outcome.
That's all I'm focusing onright now, because then I can
get specific in that you knowwhat I need to kind of figure
out a good way for people torefer people to me.
So then I can go talk to peoplewho have sent me referrals and
say, hey, how do I make thiseasier for you?
That becomes a project that Ican hire that out.
(17:17):
I can outsource that specificthing.
Or, if it's like getting infront of new audiences, maybe I
hire someone to go find mesummits, bundles, podcasts,
speaking opportunities, whateverit is that becomes something
very specific I can hire for andI can go to them and say this
is what I'm hiring you to do.
I'm not hiring you to send Xnumber of emails per week and
(17:39):
reach out to 35 people.
I don't care.
I want you to help me bevisible to people who want to
hire me.
If you say that's podcast,fantastic.
If you tell me it's YouTube,awesome.
But I need to get more specific.
I think the hiring challenge, Ithink when people are first
starting to do this, is they'reat one of two extremes.
One, they get very specific.
I want Puma to answer this dothis da-da-da, da-da-da,
(18:02):
da-da-da, like.
It becomes very task orientedand I think the challenge is
that's not actually gonna buyyou back that much time, because
when you're thinking of thingsas a series of tasks, there
becomes a ceiling at which youcan optimize that, that it can't
go any faster.
It's still there and you stillhave to manage that and check in
on those tasks, say how is thisgoing?
(18:23):
Is that done yet?
Here's another thing Do thething and you have to constantly
be thinking of things for thatperson to do.
Or, if something comes acrossyour desk, you have to throw it
over to them.
That doesn't really buy youback that much time.
The other extreme I think theycan fall into is thinking in
terms of I'm just going to hirea VA, and they do that.
But y'all VAs are a type ofbusiness, it's not a job title.
(18:44):
What type of VA Do you needadministrative support?
Do you need content support?
Do you need tech support?
Do you need customer servicesupport?
Like, figure it out what youactually need, so that you're
not just saying I need a VA andthen the VA is like fantastic,
I'm great, I have a good price.
You like me as a person andthey're like okay, what am I
(19:07):
doing?
And it goes right back to youhave to give them a list of
tasks because you don't knowwhat all this is.
So, but if you can go up to thatoutcome level, it makes it very
easy for me to then go to a jobboard, to go to an
entrepreneurial facebook groupand say, hey, I'm nikki, I run a
service-based business thatdoes x, y and z.
I'm really struggling withsales and marketing.
These are the two things I wantto have happen.
I want people to know what I doand I want to have as many
clients as I want at any giventime.
(19:28):
Who can support me in this?
What do you think I should do?
And then I can kind of respondto whatever comes in that way,
versus me going in.
I need a podcast producer.
Maybe it's not a fuckingpodcast.
I need a social media manager.
Maybe I shouldn't be on socialmedia.
I'm making assumptions.
I was listening to one of myformer bosses, john Goodman, who
just came on social media.
I'm making assumptions.
I was listening to one of myformer bosses, john Goodman, who
(19:48):
just came out with a book acouple weeks ago called the
Obvious Choice, and John is abrilliant human.
I hate how smart he is.
The book is phenomenal.
But he says you know, whenyou're talking about goals and
when you're talking about likequestions, the challenge becomes
when you put the hypothesis inwith the questions in with the
questions Ooh, okay.
So the question is not how do Iuse social media to get more
(20:12):
clients.
Your hypothesis is in thequestion.
You think social media is theway to get clients.
The question should be how do Iget clients?
Well, shit, right.
Same thing with hiring, samething with operations.
People are putting thehypothesis in the question how
do I use Kajabi to sell digitalproducts?
You're making assumptions.
How do I create a membershipfor solopreneurs?
(20:34):
Those are both putting thehypothesis in the question.
It shouldn't be how do I createa membership for solopreneurs?
It's how can I supportsolopreneurs in getting XYZ that
they need?
What's the outcome?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
versus.
Maybe it's a membership ExactlyZ that they need.
What's the?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
outcome versus membership?
Exactly, maybe it's amembership, but maybe it's not,
maybe it's not Right Again.
So same thing with hiring, samething with systems, same thing
with software, same thing withprocesses.
Don't put a hypothesis in withthe question, because you're
already making assumptions.
And if what I often see withoperations is people want to
hire for this because it's nottheir zone of genius, but if
(21:06):
they don't understand thataspect, they're going to make
the wrong decisions becausethey're not even trying to
understand the theory behind it.
I can't build a fucking funnel.
I can build parts of one, butI'm not great at it.
But I know what a funnel shoulddo.
So I can go to a funnel personand say, hey, I would like a
funnel that does X, y and Z.
Tell me what you need.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, then they can go do what they're good at, but
I know the theory behind it see,and I I'm laughing because I
mean this is, and this is, Ithink, the problem that I have
with a lot of coaches in thisspace.
Now, if you listen to thepodcast, you're probably
thinking, sarah, all you do is?
shit on coaches.
I don't.
I mean I do, but I also don'tbecause the shit is actually
legitimate.
You have a a vendetta.
(21:46):
I have a vendetta.
No, I mean so many coachescoach people and it just it kind
of makes sense, given whatyou've said now about what John
wrote.
So many coaches coach to theirspecific deliverable or outcome,
because that is all they canprovide.
That's all they know how to doso.
They require you to put thehypothesis into the question,
(22:10):
because that's the outcome.
They're trying to sell youright, and I think that real
business coaches understand thatthe outcome is always going to
be dependent on the need of theclient, and there are so many
programs and spaces that do notdo that.
(22:30):
They tell you what the outcomeshould be, and now you are
required to contort yourselfinto that particular deliverable
and you get to the end ofwhatever program or time frame
that you've been with thatperson or that company and you
come out going this isn't what Iasked for, this isn't what I
wanted, this isn't what Ithought I was getting.
It's because we're not askingthe question on the front end of
(22:53):
what do you actually want toachieve?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yes, 100% agree, and I think part of it, too is
you're.
You know, you're makingassumptions about that and
you're putting a hypothesis in,but you're in that model of
doing business and I get whypeople do it.
Because, like, if I want toscale my business, then I have
to kind of do X, y and Z andthat's how those offers get
created, the challenge beingyou're not actually teaching
(23:16):
that client any type ofcompetency or confidence to do
things without you, because youknow.
The example I like to give isif you created a digital product
or a lead magnet or somethingon like 10 steps to launch your
Facebook ads, great Me as aconsumer, I'm like that's a
really easy value.
I understand exactly what I'mgetting.
I'm going to get that.
(23:37):
But then Facebook changes theirfreaking ads manager every two
weeks.
Two weeks later, what you wroteis done, it's obsolete and
unless you are a bigger companywho has the capital whether
that's time, money or people togo update that every damn week,
it's now irrelevant, because youtaught a methodology.
You didn't teach principles.
(23:58):
You didn't provide principles.
But if, instead, you toldpeople here's how to decide if
you should even run ads, here'show to figure out if ads are
successful.
Here are the components tocoming up with an ad strategy
the creative, the copy, theaudiences, the platform, the
budget.
And here's a unit on how to dothat for Facebook, here's a unit
to do that for Google, andthose may change, but I
(24:18):
understand the principles.
Now I can go to an ads platformor I can hire someone more
specifically to say, boom, Ithink it comes back again with
operations.
I'm not going to go to peopleand say here's why you should
set up a membership on Circle,but I'm going to come back to
the whole idea of right andrelevant, getting results and
reliance, because those work inall places.
It needs to be principles-basedrather than methodology,
(24:41):
because then people can makedecisions without me and
ultimately that's what I want,because I the example I like to
give.
I used to work as a personaltrainer and I had a client
really bad sciatic pain, a lotof back issues, so when she was
with me I inherited her from atrainer who had left.
They used to do the watertreadmill like three times a
week and this woman would justwalk in a water treadmill for 30
minutes every Monday, wednesday, friday and I see a
chiropractor six times a week.
Very wealthy, but I was kind oflike well, what's the exit plan
(25:13):
here?
Well, there isn't one.
My body is now so reliant onthis.
There's not a world where Ican't do this, and if I miss a
session I'm in extreme pain, andI always remembered that when I
think about people who workwith service providers, that am
I just making you locked intothis water treadmill for the
rest of your life Because youdon't know how to operate
outside of it?
If you change your mind or ifyou find a methodology doesn't
(25:34):
work for you, all that time,money, energy and brain power
you put into something is nowobsolete, and that pisses me off
.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
As it should.
I'm sitting here and just goingback through all of the client
engagements that I've had andjust you know, remembering how
there comes a point where you'rejust like I don't need to be
here anymore and that's kind ofwhere you want to be as a
service provider, unless youhave you've created in an
environment where they have torely on you, so you've kind of
proofed your job right, likeyou're not going to get fired
(26:05):
because.
But that also creates such alike you necessarily have to be
not as good at what you do,because do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
So that kind of just continually reliance on you.
A hundred percent.
But look what you just saidreliance on you.
What was my third question?
Is something in your businessreliant on a singular person or
channel?
Yeah, look what you've now doneas a business owner.
Now, if you want to stay in agroup or with a coach for a long
time because you like thatperson like I've definitely done
(26:36):
that I like that, support thatcheerleader and you're getting
that Amazing.
I love that.
I've done it.
I believe everybody should havethat kind of support and
realize when it becomes areliancy and figure out what
happens if that goes away.
Just like a team member, justlike what was the software?
There was a software, a privatepodcast software.
(26:58):
It was like a Hello Audiocompetitor.
It was a lot cheaper.
I think it started with a D, Idon't remember, but it was
extremely popular.
I know a lot of people thatswitched over to it from Hello
Audio because it was a littlebit too expensive for their
needs.
They announced they're goingout of business.
By the way, you have two weeksto get everything off of our
platform.
Yeah Right, and it happens.
(27:20):
But they had built everythingin their business to be 100%
only on this private podcast.
They had said, well, clearly,this is so much better than
having videos and transcriptsand different forms of
information.
We're just going to do all inon private podcast, and I get it
.
I love podcasts.
I listened to them about fouror five hours a day, but you
made it reliant on only that.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Which is why I'm always a little bit nervous when
a business owner wants to puteverything on one platform, like
a go high level or somethinglike that, where like your
emails and your marketing andyour sales pages and like
absolutely everything is on thatone platform.
Because what happens when thatplatform changes?
Or it goes out of business, orit has a server outage yeah,
right, like, and we've allexperienced those.
(28:01):
Um, tell me a little bit aboutyour villain origin story,
because I mean, if you haven'tnoticed y'all, I mean fucking
genius, right, like the way herbrain works, honestly, but what
is?
How did you come toentrepreneurship?
Because I know you do a lot ofother stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
You're in like movies and you're like the wine, and
so tell me a little bit aboutwhy entrepreneurship for you
back when I was a wee child.
No, um, I think part of thethings I've always really liked
is, you know, you mentioned themovies.
I do background acting inToronto, you know, from time to
time because I like to see howthe sausage gets made.
Like I love production stories,Like I'm not really into
(28:35):
celebrities, I'm like let's talkabout the cinematographer,
let's talk about this SFX team.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Do you remember the show, how it was made or how?
Yeah, I love that show.
I love it Because you know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I like the behind the scenes stuff.
You know I've always kind ofjoked that when I hear people go
oh I just I want to be justlike this business person idol,
like you don't actually wantthem.
You want everything behind themthat you can't see, that allows
them to be that.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Bingo.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, boom Take it, but that's always been my
interest.
I started my business back inlike 2013, 2014, I think is when
the company was officiallyincorporated Because I had
worked in corporate.
I'd worked for my dad for anumber of years at his import,
export and corporate consultingcompany.
I got burnt out.
That's when I switched over tobeing a personal trainer.
(29:19):
But when I was a personaltrainer I was like I see a lot
of stuff that's wrong with howthis business is run and how
it's taking advantage of highpaying clients and not paying
the trainers shit.
I see the problems in having atoo open schedule.
I slowly started to meet otherpeople and I kind of missed
business.
And that's when I met JohnGoodman and I went to work for
him for a number of years andthat was my first kind of foray
(29:39):
into online entrepreneurship andsupporting someone like John
and it was great.
I learned a lot.
And then that introduced me tomy next couple of bosses and you
know I was always kind of doingmy own thing behind the scenes,
just because I'm like I need tobe in charge of my own schedule
, I need space to go on rabbitholes, and I really felt that a
lot of like my personal trainingcareer or my corporate career
(29:59):
wouldn't let me go down rabbitholes and my ADHD demands that I
explore rabbit holes and Icouldn't do that in my work and
it felt very stifling and itfelt very hard, given at the
point I didn't know I had ADHD.
I know now things make a lotmore sense, but you know, I got
to a point where I've beenworking for a company for a
number of years.
I was, I'd gone from theexecutive assistant to the CEO
(30:22):
to the COO and I liked it andthe vibe was really good.
But the thing I really startedto realize that was fairly
endemic in that industry was alot of people were talking what
they should do but nobody wastalking about how you do it and
that pissed me off.
It kind of felt like a bait andswitch.
Like you know, you can have thebest guest teachers and the
best resources and the bestprograms on how to build a
(30:42):
course, how to write a book, howto start a podcast, how to have
a lead magnet, how to build anAscension model, but nobody was
teaching the actualimplementation.
And that's kind of what started, because I was just really
annoyed that I saw people, dayin, day out, come into spaces
with these big ideas, big dreams, and were told what to do.
And then I would talk to themsix months later and they hadn't
done any of it.
(31:03):
So the entrepreneurship startedwith literally just how do we do
a thing?
How do we execute, how do weimplement?
How do we just take things froman idea into something you can
actually do something with andtest it and optimize it and see
what happens.
And then from there it'seventually grown into not so
much the execution part, becauseI realized the problem wasn't
in a lack of knowledge, it wasin a lack of discernment and
(31:26):
competency about decision-making.
And we're having the wrongconversations about what
platform?
How do I do this?
That's not the question, right?
The question is how do I figureout what I should be doing?
So that's where more of my workis now, because, you know again
, people are still not doingthings.
I want people to do shitbecause otherwise it's not doing
(31:47):
anything.
I want people to do shitbecause otherwise it's not doing
anything.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, you just got a really expensive hobby at the
end of the day.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Don't talk to me about Lego being an expensive
hobby.
I do that shit all day, everyday, oh, listen, listen.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I sometimes wish it was Lego.
If you had any idea what mykids hobbies are like every time
we pass a bookstore.
And I mean, I love books, don'tget me wrong, but my child, my
teenager, could start her ownlibrary.
And it's ridiculous because shewon't let me touch her books.
She's like me, like that's mything, don't touch it right.
It's like no, don't, don'ttouch my thing.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I love that I was like.
Does she read like YA romanceand does she?
Want to come on my romancepodcast.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I will ask her.
She is a prolific reader.
She is more into like YAfantasy and she also writes.
She's writing her own fanfic onWattpad right now.
Shout out.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I might want to talk to your 16 year old.
Okay, and the reason I bring up, I have a podcast and it has
nothing to do with my work.
It's about romance novels,because I was at an event in
Niagara last year and it was anevent for entrepreneurs.
Because I was at an event inNiagara last year and it was an
event for entrepreneurs and Imet this woman and we realized
that we both really lovedromance novels.
So we spent the entire weekendlike talking about them.
So we stayed in touch and acouple months later we were kind
(32:58):
of just voxing each other backand forth like, oh, do you read
this?
I just saw this.
And she's like do you just wantto have a podcast where we can
talk about this?
And I was like, yes, I do One,because I'm a millennial who
wants hobbies, lego, romancenovels but also I realized that
that's where I wanted to spendmy time is on my hobbies.
So I couldn't build a businessthat was reliant on me to make
(33:18):
decisions, to show up every day,to have to do all the things,
because then I can't have mypodcast, then I can't build my
Lego, then I can't playpickleball.
Right, my work is in service ofmy hobbies, expensive though
they may be, and that's why Ivery deliberately wanted to have
a podcast that we don't try tomonetize.
It has nothing to do with mywork.
We just want to talk about whatwe love, and I have to build
(33:42):
systems that let me do that,otherwise I will shrivel and die
.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, I have to repeat what you said having a
business that is in service ofyour hobbies and you can replace
the word hobbies with anythinghaving a business that is in
service to your purpose, havinga business that is in service to
your lifestyle, having abusiness that is in service to
your children, your family, likewhatever you want.
I think we are losing that pieceof it and there are so many
business owners who are nowstuck in this cycle of having to
(34:07):
do all the things, regardlessof having big teams or whatever,
because they're not making theright decisions and the
decisions that they are makingare too reliant on other people
or themselves.
So I want to ask, kind of aslike the you know, if you could
leave people with one or tworeally key pieces of advice.
If you are looking at first OK,there's two questions here.
(34:30):
If you're looking at hiring outthe operations side of your
business, what should you belooking for in terms of
competence in that person to doit like?
If you're going to do it all onyour own, what should you be
prioritizing so that thebusiness allows you to do the
things that you started being anentrepreneur to do in the first
(34:52):
place?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Okay, I'm going to answer the solopreneur one.
Okay, I think it is reallygoing back to this idea of
focusing on outcomes, becauseknowing the outcomes gives you
permission to say no to thingsand not do things.
Because if I can identify anoutcome, I'll go back to the
sales and marketing example Igave earlier of I want as many
clients as I want.
I want to be as full as I'dlike, because maybe right now
(35:16):
I'm tired, I only want to havetwo clients and I have those two
.
Fantastic, I've won.
But maybe in the summer I'm likeoh, I feel so energetic the sun
is out in Canada, we actuallygetting vitamin D now energy.
I want six clients.
Then that's what I wanted to do, right?
So if I identify that as theoutcome, I can essentially look
at all of my activity and saywhat is not in service of me
getting that and then I can sayno to it.
(35:36):
I can put it in the parking lotand say I love you, thank you
so much, you're great.
No-transcript, it's not indirect service to that outcome.
Then I will find a way to makethat fit in.
But you need to know what theexpected outcome that you
(36:00):
actually want is.
What is it and keep askingyourself what is the, what is
the result I am seeking here?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
And it can't be a generic thing Like I just want
more money or I just want I wantmore clients or more visibility
or whatever the goal is.
It can't be a generic.
How specific do you?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
need to get.
I think, like with somethingwith clients, I say I want to be
as full as I want to be,because how full I want to be
can change at any given time.
I don't want to say I want 10clients a month because there
are months when I'm exhaustedand I don't want 10.
10 would kill me.
There's months I don't right.
So I'm going to say I want tobe as full as I want to be.
When it comes to revenue goals,I don't set revenue goals
typically.
You know I know what I needeach that when I go to Starbucks
(36:45):
I always get vanilla syrup inmy latte and I don't worry about
paying for it.
I don't worry about taking mynephew to the arcade every week.
That's the kind of money I wantto have.
Right, that's more my focus.
You know.
I want to do enough or haveenough free time that I can
spend four full days every monthwith my nephew and I'm
(37:06):
completely unplugged.
That's how I'm gonna set thegoals.
Not because I can't control howmuch money I make.
I can't control how manyclients I have.
There is no, and if people tellyou you can control it, I call
it bullshit personally.
But I can set qualitativeoutcomes that make more sense to
me and that inspires me waymore than I have $10,000 a month
(37:27):
, I have $20,000 a month.
I don't give a shit.
My expenses are covered.
That's all I want.
I want enough money that I canplay pickleball five times a
week and not worry about thecost.
I want to make enough moneythat I can take my nephew to
Toronto and we can spend theentire day at the museum.
That's how I think you need toset goals, because then again,
that gives me permission to sayno to a shit ton of things
without guilt, and you mightfeel guilty at first.
(37:48):
I feel like I should do that.
I should do that.
Don't give a shit.
If it's not in service of thatoutcome, park it.
It's not saying you're nevergoing to go back to it, but park
it.
Take it off your plate.
You can't do everything and ifyou think you're going to, no,
ma'am, you're going to get tootired Give yourself some space.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Why would you even want to have?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
the hobbies have hobbies.
I'm not going to sacrifice myhobbies each week so that I can
write a fucking newsletter.
Thank you, the hobby is moreimportant to me.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You didn't see, if you're listening to print that,
I'm going to print that wholemonologue out and just post it
once a week there you go, I'mgoing to put it on a shirt.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And then I think the other thing was about like
hiring operations, right?
I forget what your otherquestion was.
I just went on my soapboxmoment.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Oh, what should people be looking for when
they're looking to hire someoneto come in and support the
operations side of the business?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
For me, the key in operations if you haven't
figured it out for me, is howpeople think the thinky stuff is
harder than the dewy stuff.
Honestly, I can find a shit tonof competent people who can do
stuff.
The thinky stuff is harder andthat's why I used to have to
fight people who wanted me tocharge them hourly.
I was like do you want me tocharge you for the four hours I
spent thinking and strategizingabout this thing?
(39:02):
I don't think you do.
How about a flat rate, right?
So I think.
Again it comes back to.
I talked about, like, thedifferent levels of
conversations we can have with ateam member.
We talk about tasks, processoutcomes and value.
I spoke at a summit last yearand this was kind of a freebie I
had created.
It was like 28 hiring questionsand, just to give you an
example, let's say I havedecided that operations and
process management is where Ineed the most support.
(39:24):
Maybe I don't have the time forit.
It's really affecting myprofitability.
It's really affecting myoverall client experience in a
way that can lose me sales.
So I'm like, great, this is theoutcome.
I need to work on A lot ofpeople when they do a job
description, or when they poston social or they're doing an
interview, they will ask anoperations person well, how do
you prioritize and keep track ofdeadlines?
(39:44):
Cool, that's an expectation.
I call those sure fucking hope.
So's I sure fucking hope if Ihire you, you can prioritize
tasks and keep track ofdeadlines.
That's not a differentiator forme, that's like when you're like
a cleaning company and theiradvertising is we clean your
house?
Fucking hope you clean thehouse that's what you're hired
for right, and to me that's thesame thing.
(40:06):
So task level questions, I find,are often too much of the.
I sure fucking hope you can dothat right.
So to go a level up, you couldsay something like well, how do
you approach project managementfor like a one-off thing, like a
launch or promotional period,how do you approach it?
I'm not asking you to give me aplan, I'm how do you approach
it?
I'm not asking you to give me aplan, I'm saying how do you
approach it, because the answerto that is going to tell me
great, what's the first thingthey think of?
(40:26):
How much time do we have?
What's in place?
Have you done this before?
What technology exists?
What did you like when you dothis?
What are you hoping this isgoing to get you?
How do you approach it?
It's a very process-basedquestion.
Then I would go to like anoutcome question.
What does it look like when youapproach optimizing or updating
an existing process?
This is especially good forwhen somebody is coming into
(40:47):
your business where maybe therewas someone there before and
they're no longer there.
Stuff's happening.
You have processes, whetherthey're documented or not,
shit's happening, they exist.
So you can say to someone well,how do you approach optimizing
or updating something that'salready there?
How do you even figure out whatneeds updates?
Because I, as a business owner,might feel like, oh, I need you
to focus on my pipelinemanagement, I need you to focus
on my email newsletter.
(41:07):
I'm like, maybe they don't.
How do you figure out whatneeds to be fixed first?
Well, I would do an audit, Iwould assess, I would look at
this.
I have experience with this.
My thought is this we wouldkind of do some research here
and then that's how I woulddecide what needs updates.
Fucking fantastic we're nottalking about tasks.
And then, like the value aspectof it is like you know to be
able to say to someone how doyou approach creating and
(41:30):
implementing business strategies?
I'm asking them how they think,I'm not asking them if they can
do shit.
Most of the time, I will saymost of the time.
If someone understands how tothink the Dewey stuff is easy, I
can teach someone the Deweystuff.
I can teach someone how to dosomething in Thrivecart I can
watch a YouTube video for that.
But if somebody doesn'tunderstand how to think
structurally, how to thinkstrategically, how to assess and
(41:53):
audit and make decisions, Ican't teach them that that's a
quality they need to have.
So that is when I approachhiring.
That is how I do it.
I'm not asking you if you cando shit.
Your resume is going to tell me.
If you can do shit, yeah, but Idon't necessarily care about
that aspect of it.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
And I think that is such an important distinction
because I think now what it alsodoes is it puts the onus and
responsibility for the businessback on the business owner and
not the team members.
Right, because the number ofpeople who are hiring and are
like you need to make mybusiness.
I actually had someone yearsago in an interview who
(42:30):
basically was talking to meabout coming in as an operations
person but then asked me thequestion what are you going to
do to make money in my business?
That's not my fucking job.
And I'm like, yeah, like I'msorry, what are you going to be
doing?
I'm going to be, you know,applying for acting gigs or
commercials or something.
I'm going to be busy doing that.
I'm like then why the fuck doyou have a business Like what's
going on here?
So I think it does necessarilyput the onus back on the
(42:52):
business owner to be responsiblefor the success of the business
.
Like you have to be able toknow how to do things not
actually do them, but it's kindof like your taxes right.
Like you don't have to be anaccountant or a bookkeeper, but
you sure as hell need to knowwhat the bookkeeper and
accountant should be doing, sothat you don't get dinged when
they audit you and realize thatyour accountant's been, you know
, fucking your numbers for thelast six years.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
A hundred percent and I think that's also really
important.
Again, I'm an operations person.
I see it a lot.
I'm sure it exists in otherparts of the business.
But you know, when people cometo you and say I have a job
description for an operationsmanager, I'm like fantastic,
I'll review it for you.
Like tell me a little about thebusiness.
And in there are things likethey are responsible for growing
the sales.
No, they're not.
(43:33):
I want them to do all thefinancial modeling and
forecasting.
It's not an operations job.
I want them to build ourcollaborations and influencer
campaigns.
It's not an operations job.
Right, I think there is aconflation of operations with
execution.
Yep, no, sales and marketingcan execute.
(43:57):
Financial can execute.
The business owner executes.
We execute in different ways,we execute on different things,
we execute at different levels.
But don't conflate doing thingswith.
That must be operations,because then you get into
trouble and you start gettingoverwhelmed by things, you start
making the wrong decisions, youstart hiring the wrong people.
Clearly, if this is somethingthat has to be actioned, then it
(44:18):
must be operations.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
And I think that opens a whole conversation
around the role of operations,particularly in online business,
because you've hit the nail onthe head, there are so many
people who you know, regardlessof what your title is.
I mean, I did the director ofoperations, certification, a
number of years ago and thenumber of my cohort members who
(44:40):
have gone on to work inbusinesses at a director of
operations level, who areexecuting on a daily freaking
basis, is shocking to me andcomplaining about not getting
the kind of retainer revenuethat they were promised they
would get if that was theirtitle and that was their
certification.
And I get it because businessowners don't understand.
(45:01):
It's like you said.
They have conflated doing withyeah, so man, yeah, I always
think of like operations.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
If I'm going to define it to a business owner,
like, if I think of you knowwhat is the actual purpose of
operation.
It is I create the environmentin which your business can
thrive.
I create the environment inwhich your business can thrive.
I create the environment for it, but I cannot be solely
responsible for actually makingit happen.
Like, ecosystems areself-sustaining and they have to
(45:32):
be in order for them to besustainable.
Right, A tree falls down, itrots, it feeds the bugs, the
bugs eat this and this and theanimal, and then there's rain.
Like all these things.
Right, the business is theexact same way.
It's a circle of life, Exactly.
So what do you think happenswhen your ecosystem, going back
to reliance, is overly relianton operations to make every
single thing happen?
It's not sustainable.
(45:52):
But also like you're neglectingother parts of your ecosystem.
What about sales?
What about visibility?
What about marketing?
What about finance?
What about admin?
What about you as thefigurehead, as the owner?
What the fuck?
Speaker 1 (46:03):
are you doing?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
What the fuck are you doing.
I've had a lot of bitchycrackers moments this week, so I
feel like that's why I'm alittle bit.
You know, I'll say spicier thannormal today.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I'm just I like spicy Nikki.
Spicy Nikki is my favorite,nikki.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I mean, honestly, I think we'rejust going to call this episode
.
Here's why You're DoingOperations Wrong, and that's
more than sufficient.
I accept More than sufficient.
Nikki, tell us where we canfind you, connect with you, hang
out with you.
(46:34):
All of the great things.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Fantastic.
My website is theoppsshopbiziz,primarily most active on
linkedin, but I am on instagramat.
I am nikki mick I a m n.
I k k I m c k.
Uh, and go listen to my hobbypodcast.
It's called first dates andsoulmates.
It's on sub stack, applepodcast and spotify and we're
fucking delightful, have.
I love it hobbies, uh.
And if you would like me inyour inbox, uh, every two weeks
(46:57):
I do have a newsletter.
It's called fafo.
Fuck around and find out.
It's a newsletter about systemsfor creatives who hate them,
and I think it's very delightfulsharing hot spicy takes and
bitch eating crackers moments.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
We will have all of those links in the show notes.
Nikki, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you, this was delightful.
We love spiciness.
Let's do it.
We do love spicy.
I'm a brown person.
I have to have spice in my life.
And, like I say every week, myfriends, you can have success
without the BS.
You just got to hang out heremore.
We'll talk to you next week.
That's it for this week.
(47:29):
Thanks for listening to theBusiness Blasphemy Podcast.
We'll be back next week with anew episode, but in the meantime
, help us this throughout bysubscribing and, if you're
feeling extra sassy, rating thispodcast.
And don't forget to share thepodcast with others.
Head over tobusinessblasphemypodcastcom to
connect with us and learn more.
Thanks for listening andremember you can have success
without the BS.
Welcome to the Business Blasphemy Podcast,
where we question the sacredtruths of the online business
space and the reverence withwhich they're held.
I'm your host, sarah Khanspeaker, strategic consultant
and BS busting badass.
Join me each week as wechallenge the norms, trends and
overall bullshit status quo ofentrepreneurship to uncover what
it really takes to build thebusiness that you want to build
(00:23):
in a way that honors you, yourlife and your vision for what's
possible, and maybe piss off afew gurus along the way.
So if you're ready to commitbusiness blasphemy, let's do it.
Hello, hello, blasphemers.
I am so pleased to welcome afellow Canuck that's Canadian.
For those of you who don'tunderstand our vernacular, I
(00:46):
want to welcome Nikki McKnight.
Now, nikki and I have knowneach other kind of formally,
informally, deeply and notdeeply for quite some time now.
I don't even remember how wekind of came into each other's
orbit.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I think it's been four or five years, at least it
has been.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And I love Nikki and I am actually surprised and
ashamed that she has not beenhere sooner.
Nikki was on.
I need a letter.
I mean complaint to the manager.
Nikki was on my virtual summitlast year God, last year already
, geez, oh no, don't say that.
And I honestly was just likewhy the fuck have you not been
(01:22):
on the podcast?
Like she is a genius.
You will see that as wecontinue this conversation.
But, nikki, why don't youintroduce yourself to the people
and then we'll take it away?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Lovely.
Hello folks.
My name is Nikki.
My pronouns are she, her.
I'm an operations and systemsstrategist.
I own a company called the OpsShop.
We are your one-stop shop forops and it is my goal in life to
FAFO, f-a-f-o.
I'm going to fuck around andfind out, because I believe that
is the beating heart ofoperations and systems.
We're just going to find out,we're going to try things, we're
going to experiment.
(01:52):
I'm trying to bring fun andcuriosity back into operations.
I think it's been there allalong, but for many folks who
think it's just checklists andsoftware and automations and
integrations and so much work,I'm like you have not oh,
soapbox moment, but you know,I'm here to say, to reframe,
(02:13):
like it's about curiosity, andif this is a part of your
business that you ignore, it'syour own damn fault.
You're going to end up whereyou're going to end up, yep.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Now, okay, usually I start with you know, give me
your real origin story.
But just before we hit record,you talked about a bitch eating
crackers moment and I really.
Can we dive into that first?
Yes, okay, set the scene for me.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Okay, so for those of you like not familiar with what
bitch eating crackers is, uh,just to kind of set the stage
for you, it is when there is aperson for whom you feel like a
strong and disproportionatedislike, Like everything this
person does annoys you even itis something as simple as like
eating crackers.
(02:58):
So like if a bitch is eatingcrackers, you're like it's not
actually that they're eatingcrackers, there's something else
, but it's like the crackers isthe thing.
That's like I'm real feel realnitpicky about this.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
There's so many people I feel that way about,
and now I have thank you forthat.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
It was a real bitchy and crackers moment.
So I recently started playingpickleball at my local club.
Yes, pickleball is a huge trendright now.
It's delightful.
It's a delightful game.
I love it.
I've been playing it for acouple of years.
My parents play it verycompetitively.
But you know I joined the cluband you know I go to my first
open session cause I got myrating and I'm like ready to go.
(03:32):
And I kind of go up to theperson organizing the session
and I was like hey, I'm Nikki,it's my first time coming to the
open session.
Like is there anything I shouldknow?
Like how is there anything Ishould know?
Like how does this operate?
What's the flow of things?
And she goes, well, we justlike play.
I'm like okay, well, do we pickour own courts?
Like is there to you know tostart, is there any priority?
Do we go in order of arrival?
For who gets first dibs oncourts?
(03:53):
Like she goes, no, just like go.
And I was like okay, cool, andI just went up and introduced
myself to some people and then,like you know, we're playing
some games.
It's fun, it's nice.
I'm the youngest person there,by about 20 years.
But during the game somebodyfaults, and I didn't call them
on it, but I kind of went up tothem and played.
I stopped and said hey, what'syour name?
I just want to let you knowlike you're edging on an illegal
(04:15):
serve because of where you'rehitting the ball and like that
was it.
We go me aside.
At the end she goes hey, wedon't do that here.
And I was like so sorry, whatdo you mean?
If you want to give somebodycriticism, you need to ask them
first, if you can, because wedon't want to get people angry.
And I was like okay, she goesit's in the handbook.
I'm like no, it's not.
I read the handbook.
(04:35):
None of this is in the handbook.
She's like also, don't call outthe score so loudly.
I was like we are in a hugespace and I can't hear it when
other people are calling thescore.
So I'm calling the score loudly.
Well, you know we don't do this.
And I was like okay.
And she goes and like don'ttell people what they're doing
wrong.
Like, ask them.
And I was like okay, so do youguys not call faults here?
(04:56):
She's like well, there's plentyof people like standing in the
kitchen.
It's a pickleball thing.
Don't worry about it.
You're not supposed to do itand she's like but when we're
just you know, plenty of peopleare doing that I'm like, yeah,
and they should be calling itbecause this is a mid beginner
level, like these are thingsthat are illegal.
People should be made aware ofit.
So, anyway, the tone wasimmediate condescension, and
when y'all condescend, very fewthings make me angry, but if I
(05:21):
feel like you asked, you knowwhat I, what you should know
about the club, I'm just tryingto give you some tips.
I was like yeah, great, thankyou.
And like walked away Cause Iwas like fuck.
And then I came home and Istarted about ranting about oh
my God, like this woman and howshe talked to me and she was
condescending and she keptstopping play to say nobody's in
seconds to serve.
It doesn't matter if you're outof position, right, I know
(05:42):
these things and it just.
Eventually I just went to myfriend Jen.
I'm like I'm having a realbitch eating crackers moment,
because what I realized was thisis one.
I was extremely annoyed, butit's because there was all of
this implicitness around thisculture.
Here's the business lesson fory'all.
Write this down.
But it was this idea that thestage was not set for how to
interact.
(06:09):
There's a resource thatapparently exists that tells you
about this, but it doesn'tactually exist.
None of this is in there andthere wasn't like a dialogue for
how we talk and it felt like Iwas being thrown into like a
fight that was already happening, a culture that was already
happening, and anything I didwas going to be wrong.
Like you know that that thatgift from community when Troy
walks in with the pizzas and theentire room is on fire, like
that's what it kind of felt like, because there was unwritten
(06:30):
rules that had nothing to dowith actual pickleball, but it
was like clearly in the pastthey had had people complain
about like don't tell me what todo, and while that's not what I
was doing at all, it's almostlike the ecosystem became so
overly sensitive to how we talkto people because they were
predicting that of courseeverybody was going to do it
wrong, that when you're new intoa space, you don't know how to
(06:52):
react.
And it's not actually aboutpickleball, it was about the
fact that this culture was soimplicit and it was very
outsider focused that anythingthat happened immediately turned
into a bitch eating crackersmoment for me.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Like for three hours I just kept ranting about it.
I wrote an email to my listabout it this week.
Like that was my newslettertopic this week.
When you have a bitch eatingcrackers moment, what is
actually the thing and how doyou figure it out?
What is actually happening?
Cause it's not a pickleball.
There's something elsehappening.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Right, so okay, so relate this to, because I can
see where you're going.
Relate this to business,particularly when it comes to
operations because I can see youtalk about culture.
Yeah, help us understand theapplication to business, because
it happens in more businessesthan we actually admit.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Absolutely.
I can tell you it's happeningwith every single one of my
clients right now.
Right, like somebody needs toreschedule a meeting.
What do you mean?
You got to change the meeting.
Somebody asks a question aboutwhere something is.
Well, why can't you just findit?
Oh my God, another email.
Why don't you just read yourfreaking emails, right?
Normally, when you look at thosethings by themselves, it's not
a big deal.
But when in your business thereare like unspoken expectations,
(08:08):
when there's unclear roles, ifthere's a general feeling of
chaos, these tiny things startto feel like really personal,
like you're under attack justfor existing.
And the thing I experience alot being an operations and
systems strategist who literallycomes in when people are
feeling stretched andunder-resourced and anxious,
like the very first thing theywant to do is kind of go on the
(08:28):
defensive, like I just haven'thad time to do this, I haven't
had time to fix it.
It's not my zone of genius, I'mnot good at it they immediately
feel under attack becausethey're stretched so thin,
they're overwhelmed, that evensomething as small as an email
or asking a question in yourgeneral vicinity becomes the
bitch eating the crackers,because the thing isn't the
(08:49):
thing, it's the environment thathas created the thing, and it's
been a cascade of things thatit's the one thing that makes
you go.
I fuck all of it all of it.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
So where, where is the tipping point?
At what point does operationsin a business become and it's
like an important thing?
And I point, does operations ina business become an important
thing?
And I mean, I know operationsis always important, but at what
point are you hiring people in?
But then where does thattipping point happen?
Of you know, we thought we weresetting things up, but things
have kind of just taken on alife of their own, et cetera and
(09:20):
so forth.
Where does that happen, yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I feel like it comes down to three key questions, and
the first one is are ouroperations telling us if we are
doing the right and relevantthing?
Because y'all can be busy allday long, but if that thing that
you're doing, the action thatyou're taking, the goal that
you're setting, is not right orrelevant for the direction, we
have a problem there.
The second question is is whatwe're doing getting results?
(09:44):
Because if you don't know howto measure that, or if they're
not getting results, that's alsoa problem.
The third thing is is whatwe're building reliant on a
single person or channel?
Because if decisions are onlymade by one person, if sales
only come in via one channel, ifone person is the only person
(10:05):
who understands how to do acertain thing, then that's a
problem.
So it's not necessarily asingular tipping point that can
turn things into crisis.
It's when those three questionshave an unclear answer or if
they kind of go off the rails,like if you know, are we doing
the right and relevant thing?
I don't know or no, it can be asystems problem.
The right and relevant thing, Idon't know or no?
(10:25):
It can be a systems problem.
Are we getting results?
I don't know or no, then whyare we doing this?
We need to figure out a betterway to get us back to what's
working.
If things are built reliant ona single person or channel, then
that's again a problem becausethe things are going to start
getting overwhelmed.
There's no outflow for that, sonot necessarily a singular
tipping point, but it's thosethree questions.
(10:46):
If there's ambiguity or theanswer is no, then that's when
you need to kind of go back andlook at great what are the
foundational aspects around howwe decide what we're doing and
how we make decisions in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So how does a small business owner prevent something
like that?
Because you'll know you go intoa small business as an
operations professional orwhatever right, you do become
the holder of all of the thingsand there are a lot of people
who get really territorial aboutthat kind of thing.
New team members come in.
They don't want to divest whatthey're doing or it is just a
(11:18):
solopreneur and, like one person, that person leaves.
I mean, the number of timesI've gone into a business and
their operations person has leftand they have the keys to the
kingdom, they have all theinformation, but now you can't
get into it Like it's just it'sjust.
How do you prevent that fromhappening when you're already at
the stage where there's onlyone person who's actually doing
(11:40):
all of the operations stuff?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I feel like that's a problem to give it all over to
one person, like maybe taskexecution, you can do it.
But I think there's differentlevels that we think about
things and you know, at the verybase level it's a task level,
right Like what are we doing?
What are the things that justhave to be checked off?
You know, anybody can really dothose things.
When you're thinking at thatlevel, you can find somebody
(12:03):
fairly quickly.
It's great to havedocumentation for that.
If that person leaves, then itreally becomes a time thing.
You just need to have more timeto do that.
When you don't have that, it'sa separate issue.
But the thing above that isthis idea of process right, it's
how do all of these tasks cometogether and how do we make that
more efficient?
How do we make it moreprofitable?
(12:24):
How do we make it moreproductive?
Above process, we have outcome.
If this process works the wayit's supposed to, what is the
outcome that's going to happen?
And above outcome is value.
If our business achieves allthese outcomes because
ultimately you're going to havea series of outcomes resulting
from a series of processes thenwhat's the value that this
brings to the business?
(12:44):
So when I think about hiring orfiguring out where I need to to
use your word like divest ofsome things.
I don't start at a task level.
I should understand the value.
But I'm starting at an outcomelevel, right.
Like I kind of make a list ofwhat are all the outcomes that
have to occur on a regular basisfor this business to be
(13:05):
successful, then I say great, ifthat is the outcome I am
seeking.
What decisions have to be madeto get us there?
Then I give away thedecision-making and say I'll go
figure out what this task is.
I don't need to know at thatpoint.
Now, if you're one person withone support person, that person
leaves, it's going to be crazy.
It doesn't matter how efficientit is.
(13:26):
Time is going to be an issue.
You're going to have a lack ofa resource.
But I think if you can approachit more from a sense of I'm not
giving away tasks, because thenyou have to manage tasks, you
have to follow up on tasks.
You're still the bottleneck, andthis happens too If you hire an
operations manager.
This is one of my pet peeves iswhen that's one of your first
(13:47):
hires an operations managerManaging what, managing who, and
don't just get a VA.
A VA is not a job title, y'all.
It's a type of business Getmore specific.
But what they try to do is theyput the operations person
between them and the rest of theteam.
I'm like, fantastic, you'vejust created another bottleneck.
It didn't actually relieveanything and if that person
(14:08):
leaves, then you're screwedbecause nothing's been solved.
You've just put yourself backin the place of a bottleneck.
So I think when we start to getoverwhelmed or we're thinking
about how do we kind ofreshuffle what we're doing?
I think it does go back tothose original three key
questions, but it's like stopfocusing on the tasks and start
focusing on the outcomes.
(14:28):
Because when you focus on anoutcome, I think it helps you
simplify things down a littlebit more and it becomes a lot
easier to say sure, I shouldhave an email that goes out
every single week, but that'snot necessarily supporting a
particular outcome.
That is the priority right now.
I'm going to put pause on thatbecause I don't have help to do
(14:50):
it and I can't do it.
Pausing it fantastic.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Then you get to focus in on what is actually going to
help you achieve certainoutcomes.
So how would you say and thismight be a really I don't know
if this is like a loadedquestion or just a really open
question how would you saypeople are outsourcing wrong?
Because I feel like this wholerhetoric around just outsource
it, just outsource it, delegateit to somebody else I feel like
there's not enough context, alot of the time for that advice.
(15:12):
So when we're solopreneursbecause I think primarily that
is who listens to the podcastthey may have like one support
person, but usually it's peoplewho are kind of going solo how
are they outsourcing ordelegating wrong?
How do they need and I knowyou've talked about approaching
it from outcomes versus tasks sowho should be your first hire?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
ideally it's going to be different for every single
company.
Like I would never hire anoperations person first because
I'm competent at that.
It's not where the businessneeds support.
Like I might hire someone inmarketing because I hate it.
I'm not where the businessneeds support.
Like I might hire someone inmarketing because I hate it.
I'm not great with words likewriting.
I struggle with that reallyhard.
Or I might hire someone to docontent editing for me because I
(15:54):
have I'm a perfectionist and itstops me from getting things
done.
So it goes back to what are thethings that need to happen?
Right, if I divide the companyup into sales and marketing, so
front end, everything that isvisible that can bring people to
me and then I break it intodelivery and kind of day-to-day
operations, what are the thingsthat have to happen on a
day-to-day basis to deliver thethings that people have paid for
(16:14):
and keep the business running?
And then more of a financial,legal, admin side, right, this
is the stuff that has to happen,so that I don't get a call from
the government being, hello,this is the government calling,
you are in trouble.
So I look at those three thingsand I say, great, well, what
has to happen in my sales andmarketing for me to think this
is successful.
I have as many clients as Iwant to have at any given time.
(16:36):
People understand what it is Ido.
At the end of the day, that'sall sales and marketing for me
has to do it, because then I canlook at those two things and
say great for me to have as manyclients as I want to at any
given time.
What needs to happen?
Well, I need to be constantlywidening my audience and finding
new people.
I get most of my clients viareferral and that works really
well for me.
So how do I do more of that?
(16:57):
Great, if those are the twothings I know will support that
outcome.
That's all I'm focusing onright now, because then I can
get specific in that you knowwhat I need to kind of figure
out a good way for people torefer people to me.
So then I can go talk to peoplewho have sent me referrals and
say, hey, how do I make thiseasier for you?
That becomes a project that Ican hire that out.
(17:17):
I can outsource that specificthing.
Or, if it's like getting infront of new audiences, maybe I
hire someone to go find mesummits, bundles, podcasts,
speaking opportunities, whateverit is that becomes something
very specific I can hire for andI can go to them and say this
is what I'm hiring you to do.
I'm not hiring you to send Xnumber of emails per week and
(17:39):
reach out to 35 people.
I don't care.
I want you to help me bevisible to people who want to
hire me.
If you say that's podcast,fantastic.
If you tell me it's YouTube,awesome.
But I need to get more specific.
I think the hiring challenge, Ithink when people are first
starting to do this, is they'reat one of two extremes.
One, they get very specific.
I want Puma to answer this dothis da-da-da, da-da-da,
(18:02):
da-da-da, like.
It becomes very task orientedand I think the challenge is
that's not actually gonna buyyou back that much time, because
when you're thinking of thingsas a series of tasks, there
becomes a ceiling at which youcan optimize that, that it can't
go any faster.
It's still there and you stillhave to manage that and check in
on those tasks, say how is thisgoing?
(18:23):
Is that done yet?
Here's another thing Do thething and you have to constantly
be thinking of things for thatperson to do.
Or, if something comes acrossyour desk, you have to throw it
over to them.
That doesn't really buy youback that much time.
The other extreme I think theycan fall into is thinking in
terms of I'm just going to hirea VA, and they do that.
But y'all VAs are a type ofbusiness, it's not a job title.
(18:44):
What type of VA Do you needadministrative support?
Do you need content support?
Do you need tech support?
Do you need customer servicesupport?
Like, figure it out what youactually need, so that you're
not just saying I need a VA andthen the VA is like fantastic,
I'm great, I have a good price.
You like me as a person andthey're like okay, what am I
(19:07):
doing?
And it goes right back to youhave to give them a list of
tasks because you don't knowwhat all this is.
So, but if you can go up to thatoutcome level, it makes it very
easy for me to then go to a jobboard, to go to an
entrepreneurial facebook groupand say, hey, I'm nikki, I run a
service-based business thatdoes x, y and z.
I'm really struggling withsales and marketing.
These are the two things I wantto have happen.
I want people to know what I doand I want to have as many
clients as I want at any giventime.
(19:28):
Who can support me in this?
What do you think I should do?
And then I can kind of respondto whatever comes in that way,
versus me going in.
I need a podcast producer.
Maybe it's not a fuckingpodcast.
I need a social media manager.
Maybe I shouldn't be on socialmedia.
I'm making assumptions.
I was listening to one of myformer bosses, john Goodman, who
just came on social media.
I'm making assumptions.
I was listening to one of myformer bosses, john Goodman, who
(19:48):
just came out with a book acouple weeks ago called the
Obvious Choice, and John is abrilliant human.
I hate how smart he is.
The book is phenomenal.
But he says you know, whenyou're talking about goals and
when you're talking about likequestions, the challenge becomes
when you put the hypothesis inwith the questions in with the
questions Ooh, okay.
So the question is not how do Iuse social media to get more
(20:12):
clients.
Your hypothesis is in thequestion.
You think social media is theway to get clients.
The question should be how do Iget clients?
Well, shit, right.
Same thing with hiring, samething with operations.
People are putting thehypothesis in the question how
do I use Kajabi to sell digitalproducts?
You're making assumptions.
How do I create a membershipfor solopreneurs?
(20:34):
Those are both putting thehypothesis in the question.
It shouldn't be how do I createa membership for solopreneurs?
It's how can I supportsolopreneurs in getting XYZ that
they need?
What's the outcome?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
versus.
Maybe it's a membership ExactlyZ that they need.
What's the?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
outcome versus membership?
Exactly, maybe it's amembership, but maybe it's not,
maybe it's not Right Again.
So same thing with hiring, samething with systems, same thing
with software, same thing withprocesses.
Don't put a hypothesis in withthe question, because you're
already making assumptions.
And if what I often see withoperations is people want to
hire for this because it's nottheir zone of genius, but if
(21:06):
they don't understand thataspect, they're going to make
the wrong decisions becausethey're not even trying to
understand the theory behind it.
I can't build a fucking funnel.
I can build parts of one, butI'm not great at it.
But I know what a funnel shoulddo.
So I can go to a funnel personand say, hey, I would like a
funnel that does X, y and Z.
Tell me what you need.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, then they can go do what they're good at, but
I know the theory behind it see,and I I'm laughing because I
mean this is, and this is, Ithink, the problem that I have
with a lot of coaches in thisspace.
Now, if you listen to thepodcast, you're probably
thinking, sarah, all you do is?
shit on coaches.
I don't.
I mean I do, but I also don'tbecause the shit is actually
legitimate.
You have a a vendetta.
(21:46):
I have a vendetta.
No, I mean so many coachescoach people and it just it kind
of makes sense, given whatyou've said now about what John
wrote.
So many coaches coach to theirspecific deliverable or outcome,
because that is all they canprovide.
That's all they know how to doso.
They require you to put thehypothesis into the question,
(22:10):
because that's the outcome.
They're trying to sell youright, and I think that real
business coaches understand thatthe outcome is always going to
be dependent on the need of theclient, and there are so many
programs and spaces that do notdo that.
(22:30):
They tell you what the outcomeshould be, and now you are
required to contort yourselfinto that particular deliverable
and you get to the end ofwhatever program or time frame
that you've been with thatperson or that company and you
come out going this isn't what Iasked for, this isn't what I
wanted, this isn't what Ithought I was getting.
It's because we're not askingthe question on the front end of
(22:53):
what do you actually want toachieve?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yes, 100% agree, and I think part of it, too is
you're.
You know, you're makingassumptions about that and
you're putting a hypothesis in,but you're in that model of
doing business and I get whypeople do it.
Because, like, if I want toscale my business, then I have
to kind of do X, y and Z andthat's how those offers get
created, the challenge beingyou're not actually teaching
(23:16):
that client any type ofcompetency or confidence to do
things without you, because youknow.
The example I like to give isif you created a digital product
or a lead magnet or somethingon like 10 steps to launch your
Facebook ads, great Me as aconsumer, I'm like that's a
really easy value.
I understand exactly what I'mgetting.
I'm going to get that.
(23:37):
But then Facebook changes theirfreaking ads manager every two
weeks.
Two weeks later, what you wroteis done, it's obsolete and
unless you are a bigger companywho has the capital whether
that's time, money or people togo update that every damn week,
it's now irrelevant, because youtaught a methodology.
You didn't teach principles.
(23:58):
You didn't provide principles.
But if, instead, you toldpeople here's how to decide if
you should even run ads, here'show to figure out if ads are
successful.
Here are the components tocoming up with an ad strategy
the creative, the copy, theaudiences, the platform, the
budget.
And here's a unit on how to dothat for Facebook, here's a unit
to do that for Google, andthose may change, but I
(24:18):
understand the principles.
Now I can go to an ads platformor I can hire someone more
specifically to say, boom, Ithink it comes back again with
operations.
I'm not going to go to peopleand say here's why you should
set up a membership on Circle,but I'm going to come back to
the whole idea of right andrelevant, getting results and
reliance, because those work inall places.
It needs to be principles-basedrather than methodology,
(24:41):
because then people can makedecisions without me and
ultimately that's what I want,because I the example I like to
give.
I used to work as a personaltrainer and I had a client
really bad sciatic pain, a lotof back issues, so when she was
with me I inherited her from atrainer who had left.
They used to do the watertreadmill like three times a
week and this woman would justwalk in a water treadmill for 30
minutes every Monday, wednesday, friday and I see a
chiropractor six times a week.
Very wealthy, but I was kind oflike well, what's the exit plan
(25:13):
here?
Well, there isn't one.
My body is now so reliant onthis.
There's not a world where Ican't do this, and if I miss a
session I'm in extreme pain, andI always remembered that when I
think about people who workwith service providers, that am
I just making you locked intothis water treadmill for the
rest of your life Because youdon't know how to operate
outside of it?
If you change your mind or ifyou find a methodology doesn't
(25:34):
work for you, all that time,money, energy and brain power
you put into something is nowobsolete, and that pisses me off
.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
As it should.
I'm sitting here and just goingback through all of the client
engagements that I've had andjust you know, remembering how
there comes a point where you'rejust like I don't need to be
here anymore and that's kind ofwhere you want to be as a
service provider, unless youhave you've created in an
environment where they have torely on you, so you've kind of
proofed your job right, likeyou're not going to get fired
(26:05):
because.
But that also creates such alike you necessarily have to be
not as good at what you do,because do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
So that kind of just continually reliance on you.
A hundred percent.
But look what you just saidreliance on you.
What was my third question?
Is something in your businessreliant on a singular person or
channel?
Yeah, look what you've now doneas a business owner.
Now, if you want to stay in agroup or with a coach for a long
time because you like thatperson like I've definitely done
(26:36):
that I like that, support thatcheerleader and you're getting
that Amazing.
I love that.
I've done it.
I believe everybody should havethat kind of support and
realize when it becomes areliancy and figure out what
happens if that goes away.
Just like a team member, justlike what was the software?
There was a software, a privatepodcast software.
(26:58):
It was like a Hello Audiocompetitor.
It was a lot cheaper.
I think it started with a D, Idon't remember, but it was
extremely popular.
I know a lot of people thatswitched over to it from Hello
Audio because it was a littlebit too expensive for their
needs.
They announced they're goingout of business.
By the way, you have two weeksto get everything off of our
platform.
Yeah Right, and it happens.
(27:20):
But they had built everythingin their business to be 100%
only on this private podcast.
They had said, well, clearly,this is so much better than
having videos and transcriptsand different forms of
information.
We're just going to do all inon private podcast, and I get it
.
I love podcasts.
I listened to them about fouror five hours a day, but you
made it reliant on only that.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Which is why I'm always a little bit nervous when
a business owner wants to puteverything on one platform, like
a go high level or somethinglike that, where like your
emails and your marketing andyour sales pages and like
absolutely everything is on thatone platform.
Because what happens when thatplatform changes?
Or it goes out of business, orit has a server outage yeah,
right, like, and we've allexperienced those.
(28:01):
Um, tell me a little bit aboutyour villain origin story,
because I mean, if you haven'tnoticed y'all, I mean fucking
genius, right, like the way herbrain works, honestly, but what
is?
How did you come toentrepreneurship?
Because I know you do a lot ofother stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
You're in like movies and you're like the wine, and
so tell me a little bit aboutwhy entrepreneurship for you
back when I was a wee child.
No, um, I think part of thethings I've always really liked
is, you know, you mentioned themovies.
I do background acting inToronto, you know, from time to
time because I like to see howthe sausage gets made.
Like I love production stories,Like I'm not really into
(28:35):
celebrities, I'm like let's talkabout the cinematographer,
let's talk about this SFX team.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Do you remember the show, how it was made or how?
Yeah, I love that show.
I love it Because you know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I like the behind the scenes stuff.
You know I've always kind ofjoked that when I hear people go
oh I just I want to be justlike this business person idol,
like you don't actually wantthem.
You want everything behind themthat you can't see, that allows
them to be that.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Bingo.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, boom Take it, but that's always been my
interest.
I started my business back inlike 2013, 2014, I think is when
the company was officiallyincorporated Because I had
worked in corporate.
I'd worked for my dad for anumber of years at his import,
export and corporate consultingcompany.
I got burnt out.
That's when I switched over tobeing a personal trainer.
(29:19):
But when I was a personaltrainer I was like I see a lot
of stuff that's wrong with howthis business is run and how
it's taking advantage of highpaying clients and not paying
the trainers shit.
I see the problems in having atoo open schedule.
I slowly started to meet otherpeople and I kind of missed
business.
And that's when I met JohnGoodman and I went to work for
him for a number of years andthat was my first kind of foray
(29:39):
into online entrepreneurship andsupporting someone like John
and it was great.
I learned a lot.
And then that introduced me tomy next couple of bosses and you
know I was always kind of doingmy own thing behind the scenes,
just because I'm like I need tobe in charge of my own schedule
, I need space to go on rabbitholes, and I really felt that a
lot of like my personal trainingcareer or my corporate career
(29:59):
wouldn't let me go down rabbitholes and my ADHD demands that I
explore rabbit holes and Icouldn't do that in my work and
it felt very stifling and itfelt very hard, given at the
point I didn't know I had ADHD.
I know now things make a lotmore sense, but you know, I got
to a point where I've beenworking for a company for a
number of years.
I was, I'd gone from theexecutive assistant to the CEO
(30:22):
to the COO and I liked it andthe vibe was really good.
But the thing I really startedto realize that was fairly
endemic in that industry was alot of people were talking what
they should do but nobody wastalking about how you do it and
that pissed me off.
It kind of felt like a bait andswitch.
Like you know, you can have thebest guest teachers and the
best resources and the bestprograms on how to build a
(30:42):
course, how to write a book, howto start a podcast, how to have
a lead magnet, how to build anAscension model, but nobody was
teaching the actualimplementation.
And that's kind of what started, because I was just really
annoyed that I saw people, dayin, day out, come into spaces
with these big ideas, big dreams, and were told what to do.
And then I would talk to themsix months later and they hadn't
done any of it.
(31:03):
So the entrepreneurship startedwith literally just how do we do
a thing?
How do we execute, how do weimplement?
How do we just take things froman idea into something you can
actually do something with andtest it and optimize it and see
what happens.
And then from there it'seventually grown into not so
much the execution part, becauseI realized the problem wasn't
in a lack of knowledge, it wasin a lack of discernment and
(31:26):
competency about decision-making.
And we're having the wrongconversations about what
platform?
How do I do this?
That's not the question, right?
The question is how do I figureout what I should be doing?
So that's where more of my workis now, because, you know again
, people are still not doingthings.
I want people to do shitbecause otherwise it's not doing
(31:47):
anything.
I want people to do shitbecause otherwise it's not doing
anything.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, you just got a really expensive hobby at the
end of the day.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Don't talk to me about Lego being an expensive
hobby.
I do that shit all day, everyday, oh, listen, listen.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I sometimes wish it was Lego.
If you had any idea what mykids hobbies are like every time
we pass a bookstore.
And I mean, I love books, don'tget me wrong, but my child, my
teenager, could start her ownlibrary.
And it's ridiculous because shewon't let me touch her books.
She's like me, like that's mything, don't touch it right.
It's like no, don't, don'ttouch my thing.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I love that I was like.
Does she read like YA romanceand does she?
Want to come on my romancepodcast.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I will ask her.
She is a prolific reader.
She is more into like YAfantasy and she also writes.
She's writing her own fanfic onWattpad right now.
Shout out.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I might want to talk to your 16 year old.
Okay, and the reason I bring up, I have a podcast and it has
nothing to do with my work.
It's about romance novels,because I was at an event in
Niagara last year and it was anevent for entrepreneurs.
Because I was at an event inNiagara last year and it was an
event for entrepreneurs and Imet this woman and we realized
that we both really lovedromance novels.
So we spent the entire weekendlike talking about them.
So we stayed in touch and acouple months later we were kind
(32:58):
of just voxing each other backand forth like, oh, do you read
this?
I just saw this.
And she's like do you just wantto have a podcast where we can
talk about this?
And I was like, yes, I do One,because I'm a millennial who
wants hobbies, lego, romancenovels but also I realized that
that's where I wanted to spendmy time is on my hobbies.
So I couldn't build a businessthat was reliant on me to make
(33:18):
decisions, to show up every day,to have to do all the things,
because then I can't have mypodcast, then I can't build my
Lego, then I can't playpickleball.
Right, my work is in service ofmy hobbies, expensive though
they may be, and that's why Ivery deliberately wanted to have
a podcast that we don't try tomonetize.
It has nothing to do with mywork.
We just want to talk about whatwe love, and I have to build
(33:42):
systems that let me do that,otherwise I will shrivel and die
.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, I have to repeat what you said having a
business that is in service ofyour hobbies and you can replace
the word hobbies with anythinghaving a business that is in
service to your purpose, havinga business that is in service to
your lifestyle, having abusiness that is in service to
your children, your family, likewhatever you want.
I think we are losing that pieceof it and there are so many
business owners who are nowstuck in this cycle of having to
(34:07):
do all the things, regardlessof having big teams or whatever,
because they're not making theright decisions and the
decisions that they are makingare too reliant on other people
or themselves.
So I want to ask, kind of aslike the you know, if you could
leave people with one or tworeally key pieces of advice.
If you are looking at first OK,there's two questions here.
(34:30):
If you're looking at hiring outthe operations side of your
business, what should you belooking for in terms of
competence in that person to doit like?
If you're going to do it all onyour own, what should you be
prioritizing so that thebusiness allows you to do the
things that you started being anentrepreneur to do in the first
(34:52):
place?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Okay, I'm going to answer the solopreneur one.
Okay, I think it is reallygoing back to this idea of
focusing on outcomes, becauseknowing the outcomes gives you
permission to say no to thingsand not do things.
Because if I can identify anoutcome, I'll go back to the
sales and marketing example Igave earlier of I want as many
clients as I want.
I want to be as full as I'dlike, because maybe right now
(35:16):
I'm tired, I only want to havetwo clients and I have those two
.
Fantastic, I've won.
But maybe in the summer I'm likeoh, I feel so energetic the sun
is out in Canada, we actuallygetting vitamin D now energy.
I want six clients.
Then that's what I wanted to do, right?
So if I identify that as theoutcome, I can essentially look
at all of my activity and saywhat is not in service of me
getting that and then I can sayno to it.
(35:36):
I can put it in the parking lotand say I love you, thank you
so much, you're great.
No-transcript, it's not indirect service to that outcome.
Then I will find a way to makethat fit in.
But you need to know what theexpected outcome that you
(36:00):
actually want is.
What is it and keep askingyourself what is the, what is
the result I am seeking here?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
And it can't be a generic thing Like I just want
more money or I just want I wantmore clients or more visibility
or whatever the goal is.
It can't be a generic.
How specific do you?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
need to get.
I think, like with somethingwith clients, I say I want to be
as full as I want to be,because how full I want to be
can change at any given time.
I don't want to say I want 10clients a month because there
are months when I'm exhaustedand I don't want 10.
10 would kill me.
There's months I don't right.
So I'm going to say I want tobe as full as I want to be.
When it comes to revenue goals,I don't set revenue goals
typically.
You know I know what I needeach that when I go to Starbucks
(36:45):
I always get vanilla syrup inmy latte and I don't worry about
paying for it.
I don't worry about taking mynephew to the arcade every week.
That's the kind of money I wantto have.
Right, that's more my focus.
You know.
I want to do enough or haveenough free time that I can
spend four full days every monthwith my nephew and I'm
(37:06):
completely unplugged.
That's how I'm gonna set thegoals.
Not because I can't control howmuch money I make.
I can't control how manyclients I have.
There is no, and if people tellyou you can control it, I call
it bullshit personally.
But I can set qualitativeoutcomes that make more sense to
me and that inspires me waymore than I have $10,000 a month
(37:27):
, I have $20,000 a month.
I don't give a shit.
My expenses are covered.
That's all I want.
I want enough money that I canplay pickleball five times a
week and not worry about thecost.
I want to make enough moneythat I can take my nephew to
Toronto and we can spend theentire day at the museum.
That's how I think you need toset goals, because then again,
that gives me permission to sayno to a shit ton of things
without guilt, and you mightfeel guilty at first.
(37:48):
I feel like I should do that.
I should do that.
Don't give a shit.
If it's not in service of thatoutcome, park it.
It's not saying you're nevergoing to go back to it, but park
it.
Take it off your plate.
You can't do everything and ifyou think you're going to, no,
ma'am, you're going to get tootired Give yourself some space.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Why would you even want to have?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
the hobbies have hobbies.
I'm not going to sacrifice myhobbies each week so that I can
write a fucking newsletter.
Thank you, the hobby is moreimportant to me.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You didn't see, if you're listening to print that,
I'm going to print that wholemonologue out and just post it
once a week there you go, I'mgoing to put it on a shirt.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And then I think the other thing was about like
hiring operations, right?
I forget what your otherquestion was.
I just went on my soapboxmoment.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Oh, what should people be looking for when
they're looking to hire someoneto come in and support the
operations side of the business?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
For me, the key in operations if you haven't
figured it out for me, is howpeople think the thinky stuff is
harder than the dewy stuff.
Honestly, I can find a shit tonof competent people who can do
stuff.
The thinky stuff is harder andthat's why I used to have to
fight people who wanted me tocharge them hourly.
I was like do you want me tocharge you for the four hours I
spent thinking and strategizingabout this thing?
(39:02):
I don't think you do.
How about a flat rate, right?
So I think.
Again it comes back to.
I talked about, like, thedifferent levels of
conversations we can have with ateam member.
We talk about tasks, processoutcomes and value.
I spoke at a summit last yearand this was kind of a freebie I
had created.
It was like 28 hiring questionsand, just to give you an
example, let's say I havedecided that operations and
process management is where Ineed the most support.
(39:24):
Maybe I don't have the time forit.
It's really affecting myprofitability.
It's really affecting myoverall client experience in a
way that can lose me sales.
So I'm like, great, this is theoutcome.
I need to work on A lot ofpeople when they do a job
description, or when they poston social or they're doing an
interview, they will ask anoperations person well, how do
you prioritize and keep track ofdeadlines?
(39:44):
Cool, that's an expectation.
I call those sure fucking hope.
So's I sure fucking hope if Ihire you, you can prioritize
tasks and keep track ofdeadlines.
That's not a differentiator forme, that's like when you're like
a cleaning company and theiradvertising is we clean your
house?
Fucking hope you clean thehouse that's what you're hired
for right, and to me that's thesame thing.
(40:06):
So task level questions, I find,are often too much of the.
I sure fucking hope you can dothat right.
So to go a level up, you couldsay something like well, how do
you approach project managementfor like a one-off thing, like a
launch or promotional period,how do you approach it?
I'm not asking you to give me aplan, I'm how do you approach
it?
I'm not asking you to give me aplan, I'm saying how do you
approach it, because the answerto that is going to tell me
great, what's the first thingthey think of?
(40:26):
How much time do we have?
What's in place?
Have you done this before?
What technology exists?
What did you like when you dothis?
What are you hoping this isgoing to get you?
How do you approach it?
It's a very process-basedquestion.
Then I would go to like anoutcome question.
What does it look like when youapproach optimizing or updating
an existing process?
This is especially good forwhen somebody is coming into
(40:47):
your business where maybe therewas someone there before and
they're no longer there.
Stuff's happening.
You have processes, whetherthey're documented or not,
shit's happening, they exist.
So you can say to someone well,how do you approach optimizing
or updating something that'salready there?
How do you even figure out whatneeds updates?
Because I, as a business owner,might feel like, oh, I need you
to focus on my pipelinemanagement, I need you to focus
on my email newsletter.
(41:07):
I'm like, maybe they don't.
How do you figure out whatneeds to be fixed first?
Well, I would do an audit, Iwould assess, I would look at
this.
I have experience with this.
My thought is this we wouldkind of do some research here
and then that's how I woulddecide what needs updates.
Fucking fantastic we're nottalking about tasks.
And then, like the value aspectof it is like you know to be
able to say to someone how doyou approach creating and
(41:30):
implementing business strategies?
I'm asking them how they think,I'm not asking them if they can
do shit.
Most of the time, I will saymost of the time.
If someone understands how tothink the Dewey stuff is easy, I
can teach someone the Deweystuff.
I can teach someone how to dosomething in Thrivecart I can
watch a YouTube video for that.
But if somebody doesn'tunderstand how to think
structurally, how to thinkstrategically, how to assess and
(41:53):
audit and make decisions, Ican't teach them that that's a
quality they need to have.
So that is when I approachhiring.
That is how I do it.
I'm not asking you if you cando shit.
Your resume is going to tell me.
If you can do shit, yeah, but Idon't necessarily care about
that aspect of it.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
And I think that is such an important distinction
because I think now what it alsodoes is it puts the onus and
responsibility for the businessback on the business owner and
not the team members.
Right, because the number ofpeople who are hiring and are
like you need to make mybusiness.
I actually had someone yearsago in an interview who
(42:30):
basically was talking to meabout coming in as an operations
person but then asked me thequestion what are you going to
do to make money in my business?
That's not my fucking job.
And I'm like, yeah, like I'msorry, what are you going to be
doing?
I'm going to be, you know,applying for acting gigs or
commercials or something.
I'm going to be busy doing that.
I'm like then why the fuck doyou have a business Like what's
going on here?
So I think it does necessarilyput the onus back on the
(42:52):
business owner to be responsiblefor the success of the business
.
Like you have to be able toknow how to do things not
actually do them, but it's kindof like your taxes right.
Like you don't have to be anaccountant or a bookkeeper, but
you sure as hell need to knowwhat the bookkeeper and
accountant should be doing, sothat you don't get dinged when
they audit you and realize thatyour accountant's been, you know
, fucking your numbers for thelast six years.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
A hundred percent and I think that's also really
important.
Again, I'm an operations person.
I see it a lot.
I'm sure it exists in otherparts of the business.
But you know, when people cometo you and say I have a job
description for an operationsmanager, I'm like fantastic,
I'll review it for you.
Like tell me a little about thebusiness.
And in there are things likethey are responsible for growing
the sales.
No, they're not.
(43:33):
I want them to do all thefinancial modeling and
forecasting.
It's not an operations job.
I want them to build ourcollaborations and influencer
campaigns.
It's not an operations job.
Right, I think there is aconflation of operations with
execution.
Yep, no, sales and marketingcan execute.
(43:57):
Financial can execute.
The business owner executes.
We execute in different ways,we execute on different things,
we execute at different levels.
But don't conflate doing thingswith.
That must be operations,because then you get into
trouble and you start gettingoverwhelmed by things, you start
making the wrong decisions, youstart hiring the wrong people.
Clearly, if this is somethingthat has to be actioned, then it
(44:18):
must be operations.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
And I think that opens a whole conversation
around the role of operations,particularly in online business,
because you've hit the nail onthe head, there are so many
people who you know, regardlessof what your title is.
I mean, I did the director ofoperations, certification, a
number of years ago and thenumber of my cohort members who
(44:40):
have gone on to work inbusinesses at a director of
operations level, who areexecuting on a daily freaking
basis, is shocking to me andcomplaining about not getting
the kind of retainer revenuethat they were promised they
would get if that was theirtitle and that was their
certification.
And I get it because businessowners don't understand.
(45:01):
It's like you said.
They have conflated doing withyeah, so man, yeah, I always
think of like operations.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
If I'm going to define it to a business owner,
like, if I think of you knowwhat is the actual purpose of
operation.
It is I create the environmentin which your business can
thrive.
I create the environment inwhich your business can thrive.
I create the environment for it, but I cannot be solely
responsible for actually makingit happen.
Like, ecosystems areself-sustaining and they have to
(45:32):
be in order for them to besustainable.
Right, A tree falls down, itrots, it feeds the bugs, the
bugs eat this and this and theanimal, and then there's rain.
Like all these things.
Right, the business is theexact same way.
It's a circle of life, Exactly.
So what do you think happenswhen your ecosystem, going back
to reliance, is overly relianton operations to make every
single thing happen?
It's not sustainable.
(45:52):
But also like you're neglectingother parts of your ecosystem.
What about sales?
What about visibility?
What about marketing?
What about finance?
What about admin?
What about you as thefigurehead, as the owner?
What the fuck?
Speaker 1 (46:03):
are you doing?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
What the fuck are you doing.
I've had a lot of bitchycrackers moments this week, so I
feel like that's why I'm alittle bit.
You know, I'll say spicier thannormal today.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I'm just I like spicy Nikki.
Spicy Nikki is my favorite,nikki.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I mean, honestly, I think we'rejust going to call this episode
.
Here's why You're DoingOperations Wrong, and that's
more than sufficient.
I accept More than sufficient.
Nikki, tell us where we canfind you, connect with you, hang
out with you.
(46:34):
All of the great things.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Fantastic.
My website is theoppsshopbiziz,primarily most active on
linkedin, but I am on instagramat.
I am nikki mick I a m n.
I k k I m c k.
Uh, and go listen to my hobbypodcast.
It's called first dates andsoulmates.
It's on sub stack, applepodcast and spotify and we're
fucking delightful, have.
I love it hobbies, uh.
And if you would like me inyour inbox, uh, every two weeks
(46:57):
I do have a newsletter.
It's called fafo.
Fuck around and find out.
It's a newsletter about systemsfor creatives who hate them,
and I think it's very delightfulsharing hot spicy takes and
bitch eating crackers moments.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
We will have all of those links in the show notes.
Nikki, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you, this was delightful.
We love spiciness.
Let's do it.
We do love spicy.
I'm a brown person.
I have to have spice in my life.
And, like I say every week, myfriends, you can have success
without the BS.
You just got to hang out heremore.
We'll talk to you next week.
That's it for this week.
(47:29):
Thanks for listening to theBusiness Blasphemy Podcast.
We'll be back next week with anew episode, but in the meantime
, help us this throughout bysubscribing and, if you're
feeling extra sassy, rating thispodcast.
And don't forget to share thepodcast with others.
Head over tobusinessblasphemypodcastcom to
connect with us and learn more.
Thanks for listening andremember you can have success
without the BS.
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