May 20, 2025 • 38 mins
This week I sit down with powerhouse Law prof, lawyer, and creative force, Joseline Hardrick to dismantle the myth that success always requires monetization. Together we explore why joy is its own form of wealth, how to resist the pressure to turn every skill into a hustle, and what business owners actually need to prioritize to build a life of meaning, especially in a world that monetizes everything.
We cover:
- The trap of over-adaptation and why joy is a necessary form of self-preservation.
- Why "not everything has to make you money" needs to be a non-negotiable mindset shift.
- How to build your life around joy, not the other way around.
- The 5 forms of wealth beyond money every entrepreneur should protect.
- The real meaning of freedom, especially for women juggling caregiving and ambition.
Whether you're overwhelmed by hustle culture or finally ready to make your business feel like it's actually yours, this episode is your permission slip to start doing things differently.
Guest Bio:
Meet Joseline Jean-Louis Hardrick, the multitasking dynamo who’s rewriting the script for what it means to be a modern-day legal superstar. By day, she’s molding the minds of future attorneys as an Associate Professor at Cooley Law School, teaching Constitutional Law and Criminal Law. By night (and probably any other available time), she’s the founder and president of Diversity Access Pipeline, Inc., better known as Journey to Esquire ®, a nonprofit dedicated to promoting diversity and providing access to law students through scholarships, leadership programs, podcasts, and blogs and Lawyerish® a business that emperors every legal journey.
Connect with Joseline:
- joselinehardrick.com
- https://www.facebook.com/jhardrick/
- https://twitter.com/JJHardrick
- https://www.instagram.com/jjhardrick/
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdbU42gg7FDNrsUzLL0kUmQ
- Journey to Esquire Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@journeytoesq
- Let Your Light Shine on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1h_eD1pKLj8V01ZJ5mo7PMIhNN8-8mCY
Love what you heard? Let’s stay connected!
Subscribe to my newsletter for bold insights on leadership, strategy, and building your legacy — straight to your inbox every week.
Follow me on LinkedIn for more no-nonsense advice on leading with power and purpose.
And if you’re ready to dive even deeper, grab a copy of my book Bite-Sized Blasphemy and ignite your inner fire to do life and business your way.
The Business Blasphemy Podcast is sponsored by Corporate Rehab® Strategic Consulting.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Business Blasphemy Podcast,
where we question the sacredtruths of the online business
space and the reverence withwhich they're held.
I'm your host, sarah Khanspeaker, strategic consultant
and BS busting badass.
Join me each week as wechallenge the norms, trends and
overall bullshit status quo ofentrepreneurship to uncover what
it really takes to build thebusiness that you want to build
(00:23):
in a way that honors you, yourlife and your vision for what's
possible, and maybe piss off afew gurus along the way.
So if you're ready to commitbusiness blasphemy, let's do it.
Hello, hello blasphemers,welcome back.
I'm excited because I have oneof my sister friends here today.
This is Jocelyn Hardrick.
(00:45):
I met her last year and,honestly, she was just this
force in the room.
She has such presence.
If you're watching this on theYouTubes and on the Instagrams,
you will know.
You will see it.
She has presence and it's justlike you sit up and you take
notice when she's in the room.
(01:05):
So I'm going to get her tointroduce herself and we're
going to get into some reallyjuicy conversation around law,
history, the Constitution andwhat you, as a business owner,
need to really understand inthese trying times.
Welcome, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, sarah, forhaving me.
I have been trying to get onyour podcast for a while now, so
I'm glad we're able to work itout.
I'm Jocelyn Jean-Louis Hardrick.
(01:39):
I'm the law school pro, and sobefore I started law school, I
had excellent grades, a strongpeople like me child of
immigrants, black woman,autistic, all these other things
, checking all these boxes ofmarginalized groups and I'm like
I really want to be in aposition to help people.
Well, my legal dream turnedinto a nightmare because it's a
crazy bar exam.
There's a ton of debt you getinto to become a lawyer.
(02:05):
When I started working at a biglaw firm impossible billable
hours and then judges screamingat me for doing things I didn't
even do wrong so I realizedthere were just all these
unwritten rules about not justbecoming a lawyer but a
professional that nobody told meabout, and I kept breaking
those rules over and over again,and so what I did was I just
created a new career.
I just had to reimagine thatdream and make it fit me and
(02:29):
what I wanted out of my life,and so that's why I'm a law
school pro.
Now I help students andgraduates do the same thing
Full-time.
I'm a law professor at lawschool and I teach criminal law
and procedure, constitutionallaw, as you just mentioned, and
other courses that are all abouthow our American government is
supposed to work Maybe not quitehow it's working right now or
(02:51):
what we're seeing, but how thecourts have said and the law
books and all these things sayit's supposed to work.
And I also just supportstudents on their journey.
While I'm a full-time lawprofessor, I do all these other
things on the side.
I paint, I write children'sbooks, I have podcasts, I'm
working on YouTube shows, right,and so everyone's always like
what are all these things you'redoing?
(03:12):
Like pick a lane?
I'm like, no, I don't want topick a lane, it's all fun, yeah,
and some of them make money andsome of them don't, and so
that's where the currency of joycomes in the things I'm doing
because it brings me joy, thethings I do because it brings me
money.
I also run a scholarship programthat I founded called Journey
to Esquire.
(03:32):
We create student lawyers wholead, mentor and inspire one
student at a time, and we justhad our seventh class of
students graduate.
We've given over almost$100,000.
At this point, majority of ourmoney goes directly to the
students in scholarships to helpthem with all the expenses that
(03:53):
come with becoming lawyers.
Because, if you haven't noticed, right now a lot of stuff going
on in the world, in the US, andat the heart of it are lawyers,
and so I'm really passionateabout this work of it are
lawyers, and so I'm reallypassionate about this work.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I love this.
I mean, there's so much there.
And I want to pull on thethread of Currency of Joy.
First, because I was readingwhat you had written about the
Currency of Joy and this ideathat everything you do does not
have to be about money.
Everything you do does not haveto be monetized, and obviously
not in the sense of likestarving artist.
But I recently had anexperience and I mean we've all
(04:28):
had multiple of theseexperiences, but most recently I
had an experience.
I'm in a group on Facebook and Iswear, every time I say
Facebook I feel like I'm likeaging myself.
But Facebook, and it was in agroup and somebody had written a
really vulnerable post aboutadult friendships and how hard
it is to make them, and peoplewere like running to the
(04:49):
comments to pitch this person oncoaching and pitch them on this
and that, and I was like and Ihad to make a comment about it
later around how not everyinteraction is an opportunity to
pitch someone or to monetize,because we are in this weird
culture of everything should bemonetized.
So I think my question is,first of all, tell me more about
(05:12):
this idea of the currency ofjoy, and then why is it
important for us to have thingsin our life that are not
monetized?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So the currency of joy is this idea that you are
engaging in an activity becauseit brings you joy.
And I phrase it as currencybecause, like you said, we're in
a world that's so capitalisticeverything is commercialized and
monetized.
And it's a starting place,right?
It's the start.
Okay, I understand, I work andI get paid per hour.
(05:44):
I get paid a salary.
I exchange that pay for otheritems like a mortgage for my
house, a rent for my apartment,money for my car and my food,
and so our minds are already inthat place of currency.
Now I want you to think okay,but when all my needs are met in
terms of safety, security, food, clothing, housing, what is
(06:07):
left?
Like we were not put in thisworld just to work and pay bills
, right, and so if you couldthink of what brings me joy, how
do I fit more of that into mylife and then view it as, every
time I do that activity, engagein it, I'm filling up my Joy
(06:28):
Bank account so that, when lifestarts lifing, as it always will
, when you are dealing withgrief of the passing of someone
you love, when you are dealingwith, like you and I have a
special needs child who ishaving a hard time in tantrums,
and they're doing the best theycan, but you feel like you're
about to melt down and have atantrum.
When you turn on the news andthere's all this negative stuff
(06:51):
happening, you turn to your JoyBank account to help fill you up
, because otherwise you getcompletely drained, and then you
feel kind of like the world'sfalling apart, nothing's right,
nothing's.
You know working, and that'snot true, it's just a
perspective you're having, butyour cup, as people like to say,
is empty.
You're at the bottom, youhaven't refilled yourself, and
(07:15):
so the currency of joy is aboutrefilling yourself, and there
are very specific activitiesthat you have always enjoyed,
ever since you were a child,because some people like me.
When I described my law schoolexperience, that's how it was.
It was work, work, work, work,work, work, work, work, work.
I didn't get any joy out of it,I was just like it's just a
means to an end.
And then I hit a brick wall andburnt out completely, and so I
(07:37):
had to realize oh, I need to goback to the things that bring me
joy and do it just because it'sjoy.
Joy has value For me.
It's painting, telling stories,creating with my hands.
So I went back to those thingsand, all of a sudden, life got
better and all I did was addthis one little activity, and so
(07:58):
it just seems strange to me whyis this one thing making
everything?
Okay?
It's because you, just you needto balance your life and I'm
using these terms, althoughthey're imperfect, like
balancing your life andbalancing your day and currency,
but it's a starting place sothat we can understand this is
the stuff that life is made outof, and if you don't get out of
the just work and pay bills workand pay bills, work and pay
(08:20):
bills you end up burning out.
There was a second part to yourquestion bills, work and pay
bills you end up burning out.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
There was a second part to your question.
Yeah, I actually want tointerject on that second part.
I want to, I want to change it.
What you're saying is so, soimportant and you've given us
the reasons why it's important.
Can you help listenersunderstand, like, how do you
prioritize joy?
How do you break out of this,this idea of everything's got to
(08:48):
be monetized because I need tomake money, when people are
financially struggling?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yes, what I found was , as I incorporated more things
that brought me joy, the otheractivities that were monetized
increased.
I did better in that and somore money came in.
That practice of gratitude alsoreminds you of all the things
you do have, because, asbusiness owners, entrepreneurs,
(09:14):
salespeople, we've all heardthese things like the law of
attraction, manifestingabundance mindset.
It's never about chasing themoney, it's all about being the
energy that you want to attract,and so that currency of joy
helps you vibrate higher, helpsyou attract better, so that you
(09:35):
have to work less in order tomonetize your other activities,
because no one wants to buy fromsomebody who's depressed and
stressed out.
They want to buy from the happyperson who looks like I want
some of this joy you got.
They'll buy from you, justbecause they think your joy is
somehow going to pass throughwhatever you're selling.
The joy is the magnet right itis the joy, is the magnet, and I
(09:58):
like to think of our ancestors.
All of our ancestors have beenthrough really tough times.
This feels like a tough timenow.
That's one of the points wetalked about.
When we're talking about, it'snot just legal and
constitutional issues that comeup, it's historical issues.
This is a cycle that hashappened before in the world in
the United States, in Canada, usrelations, as you're aware of
(10:20):
the things happening now, and so, if we look at what did people
do when they went through asimilar time, they still
experienced joy, they still gotmarried, they still had kids.
They found ways to feedthemselves, even with sparse,
you know, raw materials andproduce not being available, and
so we can do the same thing.
(10:40):
But we have to remember to stayfocused on the things we can
control the joy, the gratitude,building community and things
like that, and so all of thosethings are not really things
that are easily monetized orshould be monetized.
You can monetize some of it.
Obviously, people monetize joyall the time.
That's why all these industriesexist, but we don't always have
(11:04):
to do that.
You can choose which things youwant to monetize and which
things you do to bring you joy,and what I can tell you about
that is that is very freeing.
Once I realized I don't have tomonetize my children's books.
I can just make them availablein a way that doesn't cost me a
lot of money and people can buyit if they want.
But for me the joy really is inwriting them.
When I tried to monetize, itbecame work.
(11:24):
I already got a full-time job.
I already have a nonprofit.
That's like another job.
I don't want more work, I wantmore joy, more joy, and so if
you are intentional about whatyou do for joy and what you do
for money, it is very freeingyeah, it is very freeing.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I, I had that experience with my own art.
I, um, I started drawing,sketching, painting, uh, a few
years back and everyone was likeyou should sell this, you
should sell this.
And I went through this veryshort, like three months window
where, you know, I posted it, Icreated an instagram account for
my art and blah, blah, blah andyou're absolutely right like it
started to suck the joy out ofactually doing it, and so so,
when I put the foot down, I waslike I'm not monetizing this,
like if somebody wants me to doa piece of art, that's great,
(12:09):
but I'm doing it for my own joy.
Like it just completely changedthe way I felt about it and I
love what you're saying about,you know, finding joy despite
the circumstances.
I'll never forget I had gone,as probably 1991, 92 now is the
last time I'd ever been overseasback to Pakistan, which is
(12:30):
where my parents are from, andyou know, one of the things my
mom was always really passionateabout was going to lower income
areas of the region we were inand getting involved in the
community, and I remember I waslike 16 or 17 at the time and I
remember seeing all these littlekids, you know, and they had,
(12:50):
from a Western standpoint,nothing right, nothing but the
shirt on their back.
They're playing out in the dirt,but they were some of the most
happy children I've ever seen tothis day.
Right, and they were so filledwith gratitude for even the
smallest little thing, and Isometimes look at just
(13:12):
everything that we areprivileged to have here, and yet
we're still so devoid of joy,like we're constantly chasing
this feeling, and it's like it'sright there.
If you, just if you just noticeit.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Exactly, it's already inside of us and that is what
capitalism does, unfortunately.
By commercializing andmonetizing everything, you think
you have to buy joy andhappiness and forget that it's
already inside of you.
Now, certainly, money can buy alot of things like healthcare.
You know you all get that aspart of your taxes.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
But you'd be surprised, Sorry, you'd be
surprised.
We do have free healthcare herein Canada, but the number of
people who complain that youhave to wait or that it doesn't
like they're still not happywith the fact that you've got
free healthcare, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I went to London tostudy abroad once and I had
access to their free healthcareas a student.
I was like, wait, I get thisfor free.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And they're like yeah , and I got in and I'm like this
is awesome, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
And then, of course, you know I I just got a bill the
other day.
I'm like what is this $500 bill?
I thought the insurance coveredit.
I'm like, okay, I'll deal withthat later.
But you know, everything's somonetized that we just can't
escape all the trappings ofmonetization, which is like
feedback and customer happinessand reviews and this and that.
And again, I'm not attackingcapitalism, not attacking
(14:35):
monetization.
I am saying you get freedomwhen you choose what to monetize
and what you don't.
And we have to resist otherpeople telling us you should
sell that, because I think too,and everyone's like you should
sell it.
I'm like I don't want to sell itnecessarily, I just do it for
fun and give it away Like youcan't give it away, Right.
We had a coach that would pokefun at me for doing stuff for
free.
But I'm like I'm doing itbecause I enjoy it.
(14:56):
It is not making me tired, it isgiving me energy, and that
that's the other thing that joydoes.
It gives you energy.
You know, when you first fallin love and you're talking to
someone, no, you hang up Rightand you're up all night and you
wake up and you're full ofenergy.
It's the same feeling.
It's not just in romanticrelationships, it's not just
when you have a new child.
(15:16):
That feeling is always insideof you.
But for us, those momentsremind us that it's there and
you can create those momentsthrough the currency of joy.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
So, in a sense, joy is a kind of wealth that you can
tap into that isn't monetary.
So what kinds of wealth shouldbusiness owners people in
general, but business owners,because that's what we talk
about be prioritizing over thenext little while?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Wealth of stability.
So maybe you're not going to beable to increase, you know, and
meet some new revenue goals,but if your business is stable,
that is a form of wealth Because, as we saw from COVID, a lot of
businesses disappeared.
They didn't have that kind ofstability that could carry them
(16:02):
through the tough time ofin-person interactions falling
by the wayside.
But there are still somerestaurants and things that are
still around.
Right, there are a lot ofbusinesses that thrive because
they pivoted and could stillwork.
So look at how your business isstable and how you can increase
that.
Another form of wealth isautonomy.
(16:23):
A lot of people who arebusiness owners were just so
tired of working for otherpeople.
I know that's part of yourstory, sarah.
You kept going to these places.
You were awesome doing all thiswork, didn't get any of the
credit, didn't get thepromotions.
You're like you know what I'mout of here, and so that
autonomy goes a long way.
It's like, okay, how am Iautonomous?
How do I maintain that?
(16:44):
And let me be grateful for it,because all you got to do is
think back to the last time youwere at a job and had a boss
breathing down your neck and youknow that wasn't your thing.
I have a boss.
I'm always.
I've always been OK with a nineto five job, as long as I have
some autonomy and independenceand as a professor you have a
lot of autonomy and independence.
My day is pretty open outsideof teaching, and so that allows
(17:05):
me to do all these projectswhile still having a full time
job, so I really enjoy myautonomous wealth.
Flexibility is another form ofwealth.
Some people have jobs.
I've had jobs where I had tophysically be there, regardless
of what was happening, and Iremember one time a hurricane
was barreling towards myneighborhood and I was a federal
(17:26):
employee and they said no, bysigning up for this job, you
signed up to be on the frontlines, you know, regardless of
what was happening, and Icouldn't go home.
And that was one of thosemoments was like, OK, I'm not
going to stay in this job toomuch longer.
So that flexibility is a formof wealth.
You know you and I were talkingabout taking our kids to the
dentist and doing those kinds ofthings.
I remember my mom not being ableto do that.
(17:47):
She couldn't just take offbecause she had to use up, she
had to save her days off forwhen we were sick, for when she
traveled.
She's from Haiti, so it waslike your family.
They would go back to Haitievery year.
They had to send money back tomembers of our family.
Most of them lived in theselittle shacks.
They had to share bathrooms.
They didn't have landlines orphones this is before cell
(18:10):
phones, right and so she had tosave up her sick days for that.
So she didn't have flexibility.
So for me, having thatflexibility to be able to take
my kids somewhere in the middleof the week, whether it's
because they're sick or it's awellness appointment, or even
just go on a trip with them,that is a form of wealth.
And as a business owner, youknow, like some people I know
(18:31):
who are running businesses,they're running it from
different parts of the world,they're like you know what, the
US is getting a little too hotand heavy.
I'm just going to go abroad, ormaybe a different part of the
country you're in, or evenspending six months here and six
months there.
You know, that kind offlexibility is very valuable.
It is a form of wealth.
A lot of people don't haveaccess to it, but it allows you
to shape the life the way youwant to.
(18:52):
So don't just focus on revenuegoals.
Don't just focus on how manynew clients Really examine all
these ways that you are allowedto run your business and still
meet your daily needs andrecognize how much wealth is in
that.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, I've often said that if you are even just
breaking even, but like coveringall of your expenses, not going
into debt, you're a successfulbusiness owner.
You don't need the sevenfigures or the eight figures or
whatever the new milestone goalis.
But there are, like you've said, all of these other ways in
which you can see yourself aswealthy.
And it really does come down towhat is it that you want, Like,
(19:30):
what is the outcome that youhave gotten into this for in the
first place?
Because there's so much noiseand static around.
What success is supposed tolook like?
We're so consumed with doing,you know, checking the boxes and
doing all of the quote unquoteright things.
We never stop to ask whetherthey're right for us.
Like, yeah, I'm doing all thethings I'm posting five times a
(19:52):
day, I'm doing this and be likeall the things that coaches tell
you to do, but is that allowingme the freedom that I want?
And and I so my my phone wasstolen.
Um, when we went overseas toSpain, it was stolen right out
of my hand.
It was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Um, but it it was.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
It's like trauma still, but it was.
It was like two weeks of forceddisconnection from all of that
noise and static.
And you know I tell everybodythat I can that it was probably
one of the best things that hashappened to me over the last
little while, because it forcedme to realize that, you know,
that constant noise was actuallycounterproductive to the
(20:34):
success that I wanted.
And so, coming back this weekyou know, or well, we've been
back for a while, but this week,as I was sharing with you
before we started talking, ourrecording took my kids to
medical appointments.
This week we spent two hours atthe dentist this morning we,
you know doing things like that.
And a message popped up while Ihours at the dentist this
morning we, you know doingthings like that and a message
popped up while I was at thedentist waiting for my little
(20:55):
one, and it was a friend of mine.
She says did you get my emailfrom a couple of days ago that
you know to do a thing?
And I'm like, yeah, I got it.
I just I haven't looked at ityet and thankfully she's very
understanding about that, butthat's not something that two
months ago, three months ago, Iwould have been on my email,
sitting in that waiting room, Iwould have been doing things
Right, but being able to enjoythat time, that flexibility,
(21:16):
like you said, it's just, it's acompletely different level of
freedom.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It is.
You know, a lot of people islike you should be a judge.
You should be a judge becausethat's considered the ultimate
thing when you're a lawyer andI'm like I like what I'm doing
now and, by the way, I'mcreating judges.
Yeah, so I could sit on thebench and be one judge and
handle whatever cases come myway, or I can teach people who
will be the future judges of ourcommunity.
And, by the way, yeah, it's alegacy, and by the way.
(21:43):
I don't actually like whatjudges do every day.
I've worked for judges for fiveyears.
I know day in and day out whatthey're doing.
And I've worked for judges forfive years.
I know day in and day out whatthey're doing and I don't want
to spend every day doing that.
To me, the freedom I have, theflexibility, is more important
than the title.
The pay isn't that much morebecause it's, you know, you're a
government employee.
(22:03):
So I'm kind of like and peoplejust don't get it and I'm like
it's okay, you don't need to getit, okay, but I'm happy.
Yeah, yeah, it's not for you,and so that is.
There is a lot of, as a businessowner, in particular especially
a newer business owner, a womanbusiness owner, a mother
business owner trying to balanceall this stuff out.
What is working for me?
What is it that I truly want?
(22:24):
Not what other people aresaying I should want.
What do I want?
And so for me, I want toinspire, I want to create this
legacy, and you know, and I'llpivot as many times as I have to
while I try to create the bestway to do that for me.
And you know, you and I metthrough a coaching program and
they had lots of great adviceand a lot of it worked.
(22:46):
But again I found all thatnoise to be too much for me.
It was too overstimulating andI'm like I can't maintain this
all year.
Yeah.
So I realized, okay, I'm goingto pivot again and figure out.
Now I know.
But I took some key things thatare still working.
But I can't follow the fullformula because it's just too
overstimulating.
(23:06):
That's part of wealth as well.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
The choice when I was working at a law firm building
80 hours a week.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Whatever I was doing, I was working five, seven days
a week, yeah, and I hated thework I did.
The people there, you knowthey're good people, good
lawyers, but I was goingforeclosures, bankruptcies,
people you know and people who Ithought I was going to be
helping by becoming a lawyer.
Instead, I'm kicking them outof their homes and collecting
(23:36):
all these bills and I'm hearingall these sob stories.
I'm like this isn't it.
This isn't what I went to lawschool for, and so being able to
walk away was a really big dealfor me, and it was something
that I realized my mom probablywouldn't have been able to do,
or other members of my family,and so that is also that form of
wealth as well being able towalk away.
I took a year off with my son.
Another form of wealth havingenough saved up and having a
(23:58):
uncomplicated, simple lifestylethat you can maintain and not
work if you don't want to.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Do you know, I have often said that I don't want a
millionaire's life, I want likea very middle of the road,
mediocre, comfortable, just.
I don't want a millionaire'slife, I want like a very middle
of the road, mediocre,comfortable, just.
I don't want an exciting life,I just want to be able to do
what I need to do Right.
And it's it's because I mean,and I and I did in my previous
life, you know, I did all theexciting things, I traveled and
I did, and it was a lot and andfor me, I think, the the sort of
(24:30):
the catalyst moment that mademe start to rethink all of the
conditioning that we are givenof what success looks like and
you have to have three degreesand you have to go to university
, you have to do all thesethings was a cancer diagnosis.
I was diagnosed with thyroidcancer in 2006.
I was on a job site.
We were prepping for a majorinternational music festival in
(24:52):
Europe.
I was sitting in a field and Igot the call and I had to.
They basically said it's likeit's Friday now we need you in
the hospital on Monday.
So I ended up having thesurgery and you know, I was in
the hospital for about a weekafter that, I ended up having
the surgery and, you know, I wasin the hospital for about a
week after that.
And then when I went back homeI will never forget my boss, you
(25:14):
know I contacted her and I saidI need three months, like
that's what they've said therecovery period for this is
going to be.
She said you have 10 days andif you're not back at work, your
job goes to somebody else.
Now me at the time, being youngand stupid and ambitious, and
like yep, okay, fine, cool, I'llbe there.
10 days later I was back at mydesk, bandaged, you know, still
only able to drink through astraw, like it was a lot.
(25:36):
But that started me down theroad of I need to build
something that I can walk awayfrom and be okay, right, and
that's.
I think entrepreneurship as awhole is something that we tend
to forget.
We built this so that we couldhave choice.
We built this so we could havefreedom and flexibility and
autonomy and all of these things, these markers of wealth that
you've talked about.
(25:57):
And then the second catalystmoment for me was my youngest
daughter's diagnosis of autismand ADHD, which I don't talk
about, but it seems like a goodtime to talk about it today.
You know being able to be therefor her because she does have
much higher needs than you knowmy older daughter.
(26:17):
So, from your perspective, howdo you continue to build a
business and prioritize thosepieces of wealth, including the
financial bit, but not lose thejoy, because I gosh the number
of people I have worked with inthe past few years who are
successes in business but areabsolutely miserable?
(26:38):
What's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, I, when I was at that law firm.
I mean these people are making,some of them are making a
million dollars a year.
Most miserable people I've met,so I knew immediately money was
not going to solve all yourproblems.
And you hear that a lot.
Most miserable people I've met,so I knew immediately money was
not going to solve all yourproblems.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
And you hear that a lot, especially as a kid you're
like yeah right, if I had moneyI'd be doing it Right.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
But when you're a kid you don't realize all the
things you have to do to get themoney.
Do to get the money Yep.
Yep, but what I?
That for me, was the momentwhere I really realized okay,
the money isn't it.
So what is it?
And it's being intentionalabout building the life that you
want to live.
I remember working with agentleman who had been there I
(27:18):
guess five years when I startedand they started.
This is a big law firm, so$100,000 a year.
I was like this is more moneythan any one of my family has
ever made.
It will take my mom three yearsto make it right what I was
going to be making in one year.
And so I'm talking to mycolleague who's training me and
he's been there five years, sohe's made what At least a half
(27:39):
million dollars Didn't own ahome, didn't own his car Hadn't
paid off his student loans.
I'm like what are you doing witha half a million dollars?
I?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
mean, I know there's some taxes, right, what's that?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
30%, but that's still a good chunk of money.
That's more money than mostpeople in the world ever see.
So the first thing, watch howyou spend your money.
You put your money where yourmouth is.
A lot of like our familymembers will say well, if we had
you and your husband's money,we'd be in a mansion and by
driving this car into the.
I said, yeah, and you'd be brokethis car.
(28:13):
I said, yeah, and you'd bebroke.
You'd be broke and working moreto maintain that lifestyle.
We live a very simple lifestyleand we invest a lot of our
money.
We save a lot of it, we stayaway from too much debt, we have
our mortgage in the cars andthat's pretty much it.
We don't finance too manythings.
Keep our lives simple.
I still shop at Old Navy I'vebeen a lawyer 15 years but I
(28:34):
like their clothes.
It's always on sale and so youknow.
My son is also has specialneeds and we have him now in
homeschooling, so that means wehave to do homework and things
like that, but he's thriving.
It's his first year doing thatand you know no amount of money
can replace how happy, muchhappier, he is now.
So back to that being aprofessor versus a judge, right.
If I was a judge, I couldn't dothat.
(28:55):
Being a professor allows me todo that.
My daughter also now hasspecial needs, and we're taking
them to a lot of appointments,and so I just build those things
in first and then puteverything else around it.
Build those things in first andthen put everything else around
it.
We do the opposite.
We put the job or the moneymaking opportunity first and put
our whole lives about that,which is what you described with
(29:17):
your job, and I've done thattoo, and I was there for four
years billing, working sevendays a week, right.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
And then.
But you know, and I also, startcalculating.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
$100,000 is a lot of money, but then when you divide
it by 80 hours per week times 52, you're like the hourly rate is
not that high.
Sometimes you just got to takea moment and really do some
calculations.
You know, I was cranky all thetime.
My husband was upset with me,my family never saw me, so it
was just not adding up.
And so you really have todesign the life that you want
(29:49):
first.
Put all the joy things in first, then put the monetization in
around it.
I can be here with you, thenI'm going to help him with his
homework.
You know, sometimes I'm sittingmy daughter's taking a nap on
my lap, so I take out my phoneand I do some stuff for my
YouTube, I go on social mediaand post.
(30:10):
I schedule things ahead of time.
So that's how I'm able to buildit in, because this is really
important to me to have hersleeping on my lap at this age,
cause she's when she gets older.
That's going to be it.
She's not going to be in my lapanymore, as you know because
your kid's a little older andthose moments can't come back,
and so that is the first thing Iwould recommend you do, put the
(30:31):
important stuff in first, thenfill in the monetization around
it, fill in the job around it.
I love that, yeah, and I knoweveryone listening.
Some people are workingfull-time jobs because
entrepreneurship can be toughand has a learning curve, so you
might already be having thosetwo things, but then don't put
nothing else in there.
You don't got to be superwoman.
(30:53):
I've seen these people I talkto these young women all the
time who are in a position likeyou.
I said man, you're doing toomuch.
I need you to pick the mostimportant one, yeah, so you know
, to everything else and thennext year switch.
You don't got to do it all atthe same time.
Sometimes we got to get in overour heads before we know how
far we can go.
But, once you're in over yourhead, you got to take a few
steps back.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
So you can see the forest for the trees.
Yeah, yes, it's like I'vealways said.
Like you can have everythingthat you want to have, your
timeline just has to lookdifferent from somebody else's
who doesn't have your capacityright or your priorities.
Jocelyn, this has been likesuch a wonderful conversation.
I have one final question.
What, in your perspective, isthe smallest or the most
(31:38):
impactful thing someone can doright now to operate more in the
currency of joy?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
someone can do right now to operate more in the
currency of joy.
Oh, one thing I want them tothink about when they were
little kids, what was the thingthat you love doing?
They had to pull you away andpeople are like you're doing
that again.
Or people say you're so good atthat.
I would recommend reallymeditating on it, get quiet.
Would recommend like reallymeditating on it, get quiet,
(32:07):
take a few deep breaths, put onmusic, sit back and really allow
yourself to go back to yourchildhood and I want you to all
those, all that noise, all theprogramming, all the societal
expectations, just kind of peelthose layers back, feel them
back.
Feel them back, feel them backand find a little you about five
or six years old right,elementary school age usually is
good and then say, gosh, whatdid I really like doing?
(32:28):
Because it's a seed that wasplanted in you.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It's still there.
You might have been burying it,you might have been plucking it
out, but it's still there.
The roots are still there, andwhen you're around that age,
you're not worried about whatsociety thinks.
No, you're around that age.
You're not worried about whatsociety thinks.
No, you're not Just doingthings that bring you joy.
If you can get to the heart ofthat, you will start to find out
what really does bring you joy,what is going to bring you
(32:55):
energy, what you're naturallygood at, and then build from
there and find that thing, nomatter how ridiculous it is.
I love mysteries and so now I'mwriting a book series based on
Sherlock Holmes, because I lovedthat when I was yeah, it's a
little girl now Shirley Holmes.
I love painting and peoplewould tell me I'm so good at it,
I'm just doing it.
(33:15):
I had no training or anything.
So now I'm doing anotherportrait soon and for me it was
a lot of different things, a lotof creative things, but start
doing it again.
Make a little time.
It doesn't have to be like youdrop everything, right, you
don't have to travel to somefancy place, you don't have to
spend a lot of money.
You just have to start, see howyou feel, and if you leave that
(33:40):
activity feeling energized, thenyou know you're on the right
path.
It should flow very easily.
There should be no resistance.
It's not about you trying, it'sjust you just do and then start
to build from there.
And again, you know one of thefunny things I see whenever
someone puts out a message likeself-care, rest, people always
(34:00):
want to monetize it again.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
They turn it into this huge thing we're having a
retreat it's $5,000.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Fly to Spain Like what?
No, that's not restful, just gorest Right or, like you know,
grow your hair natural.
You know I let my hair go graynow and different things.
And then now there's all theseproducts.
I'm like I thought the wholepoint was this was supposed to
be easier and simpler.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Resist the urge to make it complicated resist the
urge to make it complicated ohmy gosh.
Resist the urge to make itcomplicated.
Not everything has to.
Oh my god, oh man.
There are so many lessons hereand honestly I think that, like
you said, the biggest resist theurge to make it complicated.
I have such a bone to pick withthe entire self-help self-care
(34:46):
industry, but that's an entireepisode on its own, so we're not
going to go down that rabbithole today.
But this was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Can you please tell everybodywhere they can find you and
experience all of the incrediblethings that you are doing for
joy?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Thank you.
You can go tojocelynhardrickcom.
That's my website and I'vetried to organize it so you can
see all the little things that Ido and you can pick the path
that makes sense to you.
And on social media I'm at JJHardrick.
So that's.
Instagram, twitter, linkedin,facebook but for the old people,
facebook's for old people.
(35:23):
Okay, I guess LinkedIn is whereI post more of my law school
pro stuff and things about lawschool, my documentary, because
I just started a productioncompany, so trying to tell more
of this history so people canunderstand the current moment.
And then on Facebook andInstagram, you'll see more of my
(35:43):
creative things and mychildren's books.
I have a children's show comingout on YouTube this summer, so
I'm excited about that.
Yeah, you know it's funny.
I work on these things foryears.
I recorded some of this footagefrom my kids show last April
and so that's why I was like howdo you do everything?
I'm like I just a little at atime.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, it's not all happening, just like that.
Yeah, a little at a time.
A little at a time.
Yeah, it's not all happening.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Just like that, yeah yeah.
So I'm excited about that andwe're, you know, celebrating joy
with kids, mindfulness,diversity and inclusion and
belonging, and through songs,and so I'm turning my books into
songs, you know, just kind ofrepurposing some of the things
I've been working on.
And I love YouTube because itjust makes it available for
people of the world, so I hopepeople can enjoy that and listen
(36:26):
.
Just, you know, if you go tomeetwithjocelyncom, you can get
on my calendar.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Let's chat, you know, about what.
Whatever is on your mind,listen, run, don't walk.
Run to the show notes and goand check her out Because,
honestly, I had the verydistinct pleasure of having
Jocelyn do a children's book,like you did the thing with the
dragon for me last year and itwas honestly, it was so cool, so
get on her calendar, go checkout her stuff.
Like just honestly, she's, she'sincredible.
(36:56):
So thank you so much for beinghere.
It was such a pleasure and,like we always say every week,
my friends, friends, you canhave success without the BS.
Stop making it complicated.
Talk to you next week.
That's it for this week.
Thanks for listening to theBusiness Blasphemy Podcast.
We'll be back next week with anew episode, but in the meantime
(37:17):
, help a sister out bysubscribing and, if you're
feeling extra sassy, rating thispodcast, and don't forget to
share the podcast with others.
Head over tobusinessblasphemypodcastcom to
connect with us and learn more.
Thanks for listening andremember you can have success
without the BS.
Welcome to the Business Blasphemy Podcast,
where we question the sacredtruths of the online business
space and the reverence withwhich they're held.
I'm your host, sarah Khanspeaker, strategic consultant
and BS busting badass.
Join me each week as wechallenge the norms, trends and
overall bullshit status quo ofentrepreneurship to uncover what
it really takes to build thebusiness that you want to build
(00:23):
in a way that honors you, yourlife and your vision for what's
possible, and maybe piss off afew gurus along the way.
So if you're ready to commitbusiness blasphemy, let's do it.
Hello, hello blasphemers,welcome back.
I'm excited because I have oneof my sister friends here today.
This is Jocelyn Hardrick.
(00:45):
I met her last year and,honestly, she was just this
force in the room.
She has such presence.
If you're watching this on theYouTubes and on the Instagrams,
you will know.
You will see it.
She has presence and it's justlike you sit up and you take
notice when she's in the room.
(01:05):
So I'm going to get her tointroduce herself and we're
going to get into some reallyjuicy conversation around law,
history, the Constitution andwhat you, as a business owner,
need to really understand inthese trying times.
Welcome, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, sarah, forhaving me.
I have been trying to get onyour podcast for a while now, so
I'm glad we're able to work itout.
I'm Jocelyn Jean-Louis Hardrick.
(01:39):
I'm the law school pro, and sobefore I started law school, I
had excellent grades, a strongpeople like me child of
immigrants, black woman,autistic, all these other things
, checking all these boxes ofmarginalized groups and I'm like
I really want to be in aposition to help people.
Well, my legal dream turnedinto a nightmare because it's a
crazy bar exam.
There's a ton of debt you getinto to become a lawyer.
(02:05):
When I started working at a biglaw firm impossible billable
hours and then judges screamingat me for doing things I didn't
even do wrong so I realizedthere were just all these
unwritten rules about not justbecoming a lawyer but a
professional that nobody told meabout, and I kept breaking
those rules over and over again,and so what I did was I just
created a new career.
I just had to reimagine thatdream and make it fit me and
(02:29):
what I wanted out of my life,and so that's why I'm a law
school pro.
Now I help students andgraduates do the same thing
Full-time.
I'm a law professor at lawschool and I teach criminal law
and procedure, constitutionallaw, as you just mentioned, and
other courses that are all abouthow our American government is
supposed to work Maybe not quitehow it's working right now or
(02:51):
what we're seeing, but how thecourts have said and the law
books and all these things sayit's supposed to work.
And I also just supportstudents on their journey.
While I'm a full-time lawprofessor, I do all these other
things on the side.
I paint, I write children'sbooks, I have podcasts, I'm
working on YouTube shows, right,and so everyone's always like
what are all these things you'redoing?
(03:12):
Like pick a lane?
I'm like, no, I don't want topick a lane, it's all fun, yeah,
and some of them make money andsome of them don't, and so
that's where the currency of joycomes in the things I'm doing
because it brings me joy, thethings I do because it brings me
money.
I also run a scholarship programthat I founded called Journey
to Esquire.
(03:32):
We create student lawyers wholead, mentor and inspire one
student at a time, and we justhad our seventh class of
students graduate.
We've given over almost$100,000.
At this point, majority of ourmoney goes directly to the
students in scholarships to helpthem with all the expenses that
(03:53):
come with becoming lawyers.
Because, if you haven't noticed, right now a lot of stuff going
on in the world, in the US, andat the heart of it are lawyers,
and so I'm really passionateabout this work of it are
lawyers, and so I'm reallypassionate about this work.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I love this.
I mean, there's so much there.
And I want to pull on thethread of Currency of Joy.
First, because I was readingwhat you had written about the
Currency of Joy and this ideathat everything you do does not
have to be about money.
Everything you do does not haveto be monetized, and obviously
not in the sense of likestarving artist.
But I recently had anexperience and I mean we've all
(04:28):
had multiple of theseexperiences, but most recently I
had an experience.
I'm in a group on Facebook and Iswear, every time I say
Facebook I feel like I'm likeaging myself.
But Facebook, and it was in agroup and somebody had written a
really vulnerable post aboutadult friendships and how hard
it is to make them, and peoplewere like running to the
(04:49):
comments to pitch this person oncoaching and pitch them on this
and that, and I was like and Ihad to make a comment about it
later around how not everyinteraction is an opportunity to
pitch someone or to monetize,because we are in this weird
culture of everything should bemonetized.
So I think my question is,first of all, tell me more about
(05:12):
this idea of the currency ofjoy, and then why is it
important for us to have thingsin our life that are not
monetized?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So the currency of joy is this idea that you are
engaging in an activity becauseit brings you joy.
And I phrase it as currencybecause, like you said, we're in
a world that's so capitalisticeverything is commercialized and
monetized.
And it's a starting place,right?
It's the start.
Okay, I understand, I work andI get paid per hour.
(05:44):
I get paid a salary.
I exchange that pay for otheritems like a mortgage for my
house, a rent for my apartment,money for my car and my food,
and so our minds are already inthat place of currency.
Now I want you to think okay,but when all my needs are met in
terms of safety, security, food, clothing, housing, what is
(06:07):
left?
Like we were not put in thisworld just to work and pay bills
, right, and so if you couldthink of what brings me joy, how
do I fit more of that into mylife and then view it as, every
time I do that activity, engagein it, I'm filling up my Joy
(06:28):
Bank account so that, when lifestarts lifing, as it always will
, when you are dealing withgrief of the passing of someone
you love, when you are dealingwith, like you and I have a
special needs child who ishaving a hard time in tantrums,
and they're doing the best theycan, but you feel like you're
about to melt down and have atantrum.
When you turn on the news andthere's all this negative stuff
(06:51):
happening, you turn to your JoyBank account to help fill you up
, because otherwise you getcompletely drained, and then you
feel kind of like the world'sfalling apart, nothing's right,
nothing's.
You know working, and that'snot true, it's just a
perspective you're having, butyour cup, as people like to say,
is empty.
You're at the bottom, youhaven't refilled yourself, and
(07:15):
so the currency of joy is aboutrefilling yourself, and there
are very specific activitiesthat you have always enjoyed,
ever since you were a child,because some people like me.
When I described my law schoolexperience, that's how it was.
It was work, work, work, work,work, work, work, work, work.
I didn't get any joy out of it,I was just like it's just a
means to an end.
And then I hit a brick wall andburnt out completely, and so I
(07:37):
had to realize oh, I need to goback to the things that bring me
joy and do it just because it'sjoy.
Joy has value For me.
It's painting, telling stories,creating with my hands.
So I went back to those thingsand, all of a sudden, life got
better and all I did was addthis one little activity, and so
(07:58):
it just seems strange to me whyis this one thing making
everything?
Okay?
It's because you, just you needto balance your life and I'm
using these terms, althoughthey're imperfect, like
balancing your life andbalancing your day and currency,
but it's a starting place sothat we can understand this is
the stuff that life is made outof, and if you don't get out of
the just work and pay bills workand pay bills, work and pay
(08:20):
bills you end up burning out.
There was a second part to yourquestion bills, work and pay
bills you end up burning out.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
There was a second part to your question.
Yeah, I actually want tointerject on that second part.
I want to, I want to change it.
What you're saying is so, soimportant and you've given us
the reasons why it's important.
Can you help listenersunderstand, like, how do you
prioritize joy?
How do you break out of this,this idea of everything's got to
(08:48):
be monetized because I need tomake money, when people are
financially struggling?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yes, what I found was , as I incorporated more things
that brought me joy, the otheractivities that were monetized
increased.
I did better in that and somore money came in.
That practice of gratitude alsoreminds you of all the things
you do have, because, asbusiness owners, entrepreneurs,
(09:14):
salespeople, we've all heardthese things like the law of
attraction, manifestingabundance mindset.
It's never about chasing themoney, it's all about being the
energy that you want to attract,and so that currency of joy
helps you vibrate higher, helpsyou attract better, so that you
(09:35):
have to work less in order tomonetize your other activities,
because no one wants to buy fromsomebody who's depressed and
stressed out.
They want to buy from the happyperson who looks like I want
some of this joy you got.
They'll buy from you, justbecause they think your joy is
somehow going to pass throughwhatever you're selling.
The joy is the magnet right itis the joy, is the magnet, and I
(09:58):
like to think of our ancestors.
All of our ancestors have beenthrough really tough times.
This feels like a tough timenow.
That's one of the points wetalked about.
When we're talking about, it'snot just legal and
constitutional issues that comeup, it's historical issues.
This is a cycle that hashappened before in the world in
the United States, in Canada, usrelations, as you're aware of
(10:20):
the things happening now, and so, if we look at what did people
do when they went through asimilar time, they still
experienced joy, they still gotmarried, they still had kids.
They found ways to feedthemselves, even with sparse,
you know, raw materials andproduce not being available, and
so we can do the same thing.
(10:40):
But we have to remember to stayfocused on the things we can
control the joy, the gratitude,building community and things
like that, and so all of thosethings are not really things
that are easily monetized orshould be monetized.
You can monetize some of it.
Obviously, people monetize joyall the time.
That's why all these industriesexist, but we don't always have
(11:04):
to do that.
You can choose which things youwant to monetize and which
things you do to bring you joy,and what I can tell you about
that is that is very freeing.
Once I realized I don't have tomonetize my children's books.
I can just make them availablein a way that doesn't cost me a
lot of money and people can buyit if they want.
But for me the joy really is inwriting them.
When I tried to monetize, itbecame work.
(11:24):
I already got a full-time job.
I already have a nonprofit.
That's like another job.
I don't want more work, I wantmore joy, more joy, and so if
you are intentional about whatyou do for joy and what you do
for money, it is very freeingyeah, it is very freeing.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I, I had that experience with my own art.
I, um, I started drawing,sketching, painting, uh, a few
years back and everyone was likeyou should sell this, you
should sell this.
And I went through this veryshort, like three months window
where, you know, I posted it, Icreated an instagram account for
my art and blah, blah, blah andyou're absolutely right like it
started to suck the joy out ofactually doing it, and so so,
when I put the foot down, I waslike I'm not monetizing this,
like if somebody wants me to doa piece of art, that's great,
(12:09):
but I'm doing it for my own joy.
Like it just completely changedthe way I felt about it and I
love what you're saying about,you know, finding joy despite
the circumstances.
I'll never forget I had gone,as probably 1991, 92 now is the
last time I'd ever been overseasback to Pakistan, which is
(12:30):
where my parents are from, andyou know, one of the things my
mom was always really passionateabout was going to lower income
areas of the region we were inand getting involved in the
community, and I remember I waslike 16 or 17 at the time and I
remember seeing all these littlekids, you know, and they had,
(12:50):
from a Western standpoint,nothing right, nothing but the
shirt on their back.
They're playing out in the dirt,but they were some of the most
happy children I've ever seen tothis day.
Right, and they were so filledwith gratitude for even the
smallest little thing, and Isometimes look at just
(13:12):
everything that we areprivileged to have here, and yet
we're still so devoid of joy,like we're constantly chasing
this feeling, and it's like it'sright there.
If you, just if you just noticeit.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Exactly, it's already inside of us and that is what
capitalism does, unfortunately.
By commercializing andmonetizing everything, you think
you have to buy joy andhappiness and forget that it's
already inside of you.
Now, certainly, money can buy alot of things like healthcare.
You know you all get that aspart of your taxes.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
But you'd be surprised, Sorry, you'd be
surprised.
We do have free healthcare herein Canada, but the number of
people who complain that youhave to wait or that it doesn't
like they're still not happywith the fact that you've got
free healthcare, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I went to London tostudy abroad once and I had
access to their free healthcareas a student.
I was like, wait, I get thisfor free.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And they're like yeah , and I got in and I'm like this
is awesome, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
And then, of course, you know I I just got a bill the
other day.
I'm like what is this $500 bill?
I thought the insurance coveredit.
I'm like, okay, I'll deal withthat later.
But you know, everything's somonetized that we just can't
escape all the trappings ofmonetization, which is like
feedback and customer happinessand reviews and this and that.
And again, I'm not attackingcapitalism, not attacking
(14:35):
monetization.
I am saying you get freedomwhen you choose what to monetize
and what you don't.
And we have to resist otherpeople telling us you should
sell that, because I think too,and everyone's like you should
sell it.
I'm like I don't want to sell itnecessarily, I just do it for
fun and give it away Like youcan't give it away, Right.
We had a coach that would pokefun at me for doing stuff for
free.
But I'm like I'm doing itbecause I enjoy it.
(14:56):
It is not making me tired, it isgiving me energy, and that
that's the other thing that joydoes.
It gives you energy.
You know, when you first fallin love and you're talking to
someone, no, you hang up Rightand you're up all night and you
wake up and you're full ofenergy.
It's the same feeling.
It's not just in romanticrelationships, it's not just
when you have a new child.
(15:16):
That feeling is always insideof you.
But for us, those momentsremind us that it's there and
you can create those momentsthrough the currency of joy.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
So, in a sense, joy is a kind of wealth that you can
tap into that isn't monetary.
So what kinds of wealth shouldbusiness owners people in
general, but business owners,because that's what we talk
about be prioritizing over thenext little while?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Wealth of stability.
So maybe you're not going to beable to increase, you know, and
meet some new revenue goals,but if your business is stable,
that is a form of wealth Because, as we saw from COVID, a lot of
businesses disappeared.
They didn't have that kind ofstability that could carry them
(16:02):
through the tough time ofin-person interactions falling
by the wayside.
But there are still somerestaurants and things that are
still around.
Right, there are a lot ofbusinesses that thrive because
they pivoted and could stillwork.
So look at how your business isstable and how you can increase
that.
Another form of wealth isautonomy.
(16:23):
A lot of people who arebusiness owners were just so
tired of working for otherpeople.
I know that's part of yourstory, sarah.
You kept going to these places.
You were awesome doing all thiswork, didn't get any of the
credit, didn't get thepromotions.
You're like you know what I'mout of here, and so that
autonomy goes a long way.
It's like, okay, how am Iautonomous?
How do I maintain that?
(16:44):
And let me be grateful for it,because all you got to do is
think back to the last time youwere at a job and had a boss
breathing down your neck and youknow that wasn't your thing.
I have a boss.
I'm always.
I've always been OK with a nineto five job, as long as I have
some autonomy and independenceand as a professor you have a
lot of autonomy and independence.
My day is pretty open outsideof teaching, and so that allows
(17:05):
me to do all these projectswhile still having a full time
job, so I really enjoy myautonomous wealth.
Flexibility is another form ofwealth.
Some people have jobs.
I've had jobs where I had tophysically be there, regardless
of what was happening, and Iremember one time a hurricane
was barreling towards myneighborhood and I was a federal
(17:26):
employee and they said no, bysigning up for this job, you
signed up to be on the frontlines, you know, regardless of
what was happening, and Icouldn't go home.
And that was one of thosemoments was like, OK, I'm not
going to stay in this job toomuch longer.
So that flexibility is a formof wealth.
You know you and I were talkingabout taking our kids to the
dentist and doing those kinds ofthings.
I remember my mom not being ableto do that.
(17:47):
She couldn't just take offbecause she had to use up, she
had to save her days off forwhen we were sick, for when she
traveled.
She's from Haiti, so it waslike your family.
They would go back to Haitievery year.
They had to send money back tomembers of our family.
Most of them lived in theselittle shacks.
They had to share bathrooms.
They didn't have landlines orphones this is before cell
(18:10):
phones, right and so she had tosave up her sick days for that.
So she didn't have flexibility.
So for me, having thatflexibility to be able to take
my kids somewhere in the middleof the week, whether it's
because they're sick or it's awellness appointment, or even
just go on a trip with them,that is a form of wealth.
And as a business owner, youknow, like some people I know
(18:31):
who are running businesses,they're running it from
different parts of the world,they're like you know what, the
US is getting a little too hotand heavy.
I'm just going to go abroad, ormaybe a different part of the
country you're in, or evenspending six months here and six
months there.
You know, that kind offlexibility is very valuable.
It is a form of wealth.
A lot of people don't haveaccess to it, but it allows you
to shape the life the way youwant to.
(18:52):
So don't just focus on revenuegoals.
Don't just focus on how manynew clients Really examine all
these ways that you are allowedto run your business and still
meet your daily needs andrecognize how much wealth is in
that.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, I've often said that if you are even just
breaking even, but like coveringall of your expenses, not going
into debt, you're a successfulbusiness owner.
You don't need the sevenfigures or the eight figures or
whatever the new milestone goalis.
But there are, like you've said, all of these other ways in
which you can see yourself aswealthy.
And it really does come down towhat is it that you want, Like,
(19:30):
what is the outcome that youhave gotten into this for in the
first place?
Because there's so much noiseand static around.
What success is supposed tolook like?
We're so consumed with doing,you know, checking the boxes and
doing all of the quote unquoteright things.
We never stop to ask whetherthey're right for us.
Like, yeah, I'm doing all thethings I'm posting five times a
(19:52):
day, I'm doing this and be likeall the things that coaches tell
you to do, but is that allowingme the freedom that I want?
And and I so my my phone wasstolen.
Um, when we went overseas toSpain, it was stolen right out
of my hand.
It was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Um, but it it was.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
It's like trauma still, but it was.
It was like two weeks of forceddisconnection from all of that
noise and static.
And you know I tell everybodythat I can that it was probably
one of the best things that hashappened to me over the last
little while, because it forcedme to realize that, you know,
that constant noise was actuallycounterproductive to the
(20:34):
success that I wanted.
And so, coming back this weekyou know, or well, we've been
back for a while, but this week,as I was sharing with you
before we started talking, ourrecording took my kids to
medical appointments.
This week we spent two hours atthe dentist this morning we,
you know doing things like that.
And a message popped up while Ihours at the dentist this
morning we, you know doingthings like that and a message
popped up while I was at thedentist waiting for my little
(20:55):
one, and it was a friend of mine.
She says did you get my emailfrom a couple of days ago that
you know to do a thing?
And I'm like, yeah, I got it.
I just I haven't looked at ityet and thankfully she's very
understanding about that, butthat's not something that two
months ago, three months ago, Iwould have been on my email,
sitting in that waiting room, Iwould have been doing things
Right, but being able to enjoythat time, that flexibility,
(21:16):
like you said, it's just, it's acompletely different level of
freedom.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It is.
You know, a lot of people islike you should be a judge.
You should be a judge becausethat's considered the ultimate
thing when you're a lawyer andI'm like I like what I'm doing
now and, by the way, I'mcreating judges.
Yeah, so I could sit on thebench and be one judge and
handle whatever cases come myway, or I can teach people who
will be the future judges of ourcommunity.
And, by the way, yeah, it's alegacy, and by the way.
(21:43):
I don't actually like whatjudges do every day.
I've worked for judges for fiveyears.
I know day in and day out whatthey're doing.
And I've worked for judges forfive years.
I know day in and day out whatthey're doing and I don't want
to spend every day doing that.
To me, the freedom I have, theflexibility, is more important
than the title.
The pay isn't that much morebecause it's, you know, you're a
government employee.
(22:03):
So I'm kind of like and peoplejust don't get it and I'm like
it's okay, you don't need to getit, okay, but I'm happy.
Yeah, yeah, it's not for you,and so that is.
There is a lot of, as a businessowner, in particular especially
a newer business owner, a womanbusiness owner, a mother
business owner trying to balanceall this stuff out.
What is working for me?
What is it that I truly want?
(22:24):
Not what other people aresaying I should want.
What do I want?
And so for me, I want toinspire, I want to create this
legacy, and you know, and I'llpivot as many times as I have to
while I try to create the bestway to do that for me.
And you know, you and I metthrough a coaching program and
they had lots of great adviceand a lot of it worked.
(22:46):
But again I found all thatnoise to be too much for me.
It was too overstimulating andI'm like I can't maintain this
all year.
Yeah.
So I realized, okay, I'm goingto pivot again and figure out.
Now I know.
But I took some key things thatare still working.
But I can't follow the fullformula because it's just too
overstimulating.
(23:06):
That's part of wealth as well.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
The choice when I was working at a law firm building
80 hours a week.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Whatever I was doing, I was working five, seven days
a week, yeah, and I hated thework I did.
The people there, you knowthey're good people, good
lawyers, but I was goingforeclosures, bankruptcies,
people you know and people who Ithought I was going to be
helping by becoming a lawyer.
Instead, I'm kicking them outof their homes and collecting
(23:36):
all these bills and I'm hearingall these sob stories.
I'm like this isn't it.
This isn't what I went to lawschool for, and so being able to
walk away was a really big dealfor me, and it was something
that I realized my mom probablywouldn't have been able to do,
or other members of my family,and so that is also that form of
wealth as well being able towalk away.
I took a year off with my son.
Another form of wealth havingenough saved up and having a
(23:58):
uncomplicated, simple lifestylethat you can maintain and not
work if you don't want to.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Do you know, I have often said that I don't want a
millionaire's life, I want likea very middle of the road,
mediocre, comfortable, just.
I don't want a millionaire'slife, I want like a very middle
of the road, mediocre,comfortable, just.
I don't want an exciting life,I just want to be able to do
what I need to do Right.
And it's it's because I mean,and I and I did in my previous
life, you know, I did all theexciting things, I traveled and
I did, and it was a lot and andfor me, I think, the the sort of
(24:30):
the catalyst moment that mademe start to rethink all of the
conditioning that we are givenof what success looks like and
you have to have three degreesand you have to go to university
, you have to do all thesethings was a cancer diagnosis.
I was diagnosed with thyroidcancer in 2006.
I was on a job site.
We were prepping for a majorinternational music festival in
(24:52):
Europe.
I was sitting in a field and Igot the call and I had to.
They basically said it's likeit's Friday now we need you in
the hospital on Monday.
So I ended up having thesurgery and you know, I was in
the hospital for about a weekafter that, I ended up having
the surgery and, you know, I wasin the hospital for about a
week after that.
And then when I went back homeI will never forget my boss, you
(25:14):
know I contacted her and I saidI need three months, like
that's what they've said therecovery period for this is
going to be.
She said you have 10 days andif you're not back at work, your
job goes to somebody else.
Now me at the time, being youngand stupid and ambitious, and
like yep, okay, fine, cool, I'llbe there.
10 days later I was back at mydesk, bandaged, you know, still
only able to drink through astraw, like it was a lot.
(25:36):
But that started me down theroad of I need to build
something that I can walk awayfrom and be okay, right, and
that's.
I think entrepreneurship as awhole is something that we tend
to forget.
We built this so that we couldhave choice.
We built this so we could havefreedom and flexibility and
autonomy and all of these things, these markers of wealth that
you've talked about.
(25:57):
And then the second catalystmoment for me was my youngest
daughter's diagnosis of autismand ADHD, which I don't talk
about, but it seems like a goodtime to talk about it today.
You know being able to be therefor her because she does have
much higher needs than you knowmy older daughter.
(26:17):
So, from your perspective, howdo you continue to build a
business and prioritize thosepieces of wealth, including the
financial bit, but not lose thejoy, because I gosh the number
of people I have worked with inthe past few years who are
successes in business but areabsolutely miserable?
(26:38):
What's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, I, when I was at that law firm.
I mean these people are making,some of them are making a
million dollars a year.
Most miserable people I've met,so I knew immediately money was
not going to solve all yourproblems.
And you hear that a lot.
Most miserable people I've met,so I knew immediately money was
not going to solve all yourproblems.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
And you hear that a lot, especially as a kid you're
like yeah right, if I had moneyI'd be doing it Right.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
But when you're a kid you don't realize all the
things you have to do to get themoney.
Do to get the money Yep.
Yep, but what I?
That for me, was the momentwhere I really realized okay,
the money isn't it.
So what is it?
And it's being intentionalabout building the life that you
want to live.
I remember working with agentleman who had been there I
(27:18):
guess five years when I startedand they started.
This is a big law firm, so$100,000 a year.
I was like this is more moneythan any one of my family has
ever made.
It will take my mom three yearsto make it right what I was
going to be making in one year.
And so I'm talking to mycolleague who's training me and
he's been there five years, sohe's made what At least a half
(27:39):
million dollars Didn't own ahome, didn't own his car Hadn't
paid off his student loans.
I'm like what are you doing witha half a million dollars?
I?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
mean, I know there's some taxes, right, what's that?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
30%, but that's still a good chunk of money.
That's more money than mostpeople in the world ever see.
So the first thing, watch howyou spend your money.
You put your money where yourmouth is.
A lot of like our familymembers will say well, if we had
you and your husband's money,we'd be in a mansion and by
driving this car into the.
I said, yeah, and you'd be brokethis car.
(28:13):
I said, yeah, and you'd bebroke.
You'd be broke and working moreto maintain that lifestyle.
We live a very simple lifestyleand we invest a lot of our
money.
We save a lot of it, we stayaway from too much debt, we have
our mortgage in the cars andthat's pretty much it.
We don't finance too manythings.
Keep our lives simple.
I still shop at Old Navy I'vebeen a lawyer 15 years but I
(28:34):
like their clothes.
It's always on sale and so youknow.
My son is also has specialneeds and we have him now in
homeschooling, so that means wehave to do homework and things
like that, but he's thriving.
It's his first year doing thatand you know no amount of money
can replace how happy, muchhappier, he is now.
So back to that being aprofessor versus a judge, right.
If I was a judge, I couldn't dothat.
(28:55):
Being a professor allows me todo that.
My daughter also now hasspecial needs, and we're taking
them to a lot of appointments,and so I just build those things
in first and then puteverything else around it.
Build those things in first andthen put everything else around
it.
We do the opposite.
We put the job or the moneymaking opportunity first and put
our whole lives about that,which is what you described with
(29:17):
your job, and I've done thattoo, and I was there for four
years billing, working sevendays a week, right.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
And then.
But you know, and I also, startcalculating.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
$100,000 is a lot of money, but then when you divide
it by 80 hours per week times 52, you're like the hourly rate is
not that high.
Sometimes you just got to takea moment and really do some
calculations.
You know, I was cranky all thetime.
My husband was upset with me,my family never saw me, so it
was just not adding up.
And so you really have todesign the life that you want
(29:49):
first.
Put all the joy things in first, then put the monetization in
around it.
I can be here with you, thenI'm going to help him with his
homework.
You know, sometimes I'm sittingmy daughter's taking a nap on
my lap, so I take out my phoneand I do some stuff for my
YouTube, I go on social mediaand post.
(30:10):
I schedule things ahead of time.
So that's how I'm able to buildit in, because this is really
important to me to have hersleeping on my lap at this age,
cause she's when she gets older.
That's going to be it.
She's not going to be in my lapanymore, as you know because
your kid's a little older andthose moments can't come back,
and so that is the first thing Iwould recommend you do, put the
(30:31):
important stuff in first, thenfill in the monetization around
it, fill in the job around it.
I love that, yeah, and I knoweveryone listening.
Some people are workingfull-time jobs because
entrepreneurship can be toughand has a learning curve, so you
might already be having thosetwo things, but then don't put
nothing else in there.
You don't got to be superwoman.
(30:53):
I've seen these people I talkto these young women all the
time who are in a position likeyou.
I said man, you're doing toomuch.
I need you to pick the mostimportant one, yeah, so you know
, to everything else and thennext year switch.
You don't got to do it all atthe same time.
Sometimes we got to get in overour heads before we know how
far we can go.
But, once you're in over yourhead, you got to take a few
steps back.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
So you can see the forest for the trees.
Yeah, yes, it's like I'vealways said.
Like you can have everythingthat you want to have, your
timeline just has to lookdifferent from somebody else's
who doesn't have your capacityright or your priorities.
Jocelyn, this has been likesuch a wonderful conversation.
I have one final question.
What, in your perspective, isthe smallest or the most
(31:38):
impactful thing someone can doright now to operate more in the
currency of joy?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
someone can do right now to operate more in the
currency of joy.
Oh, one thing I want them tothink about when they were
little kids, what was the thingthat you love doing?
They had to pull you away andpeople are like you're doing
that again.
Or people say you're so good atthat.
I would recommend reallymeditating on it, get quiet.
Would recommend like reallymeditating on it, get quiet,
(32:07):
take a few deep breaths, put onmusic, sit back and really allow
yourself to go back to yourchildhood and I want you to all
those, all that noise, all theprogramming, all the societal
expectations, just kind of peelthose layers back, feel them
back.
Feel them back, feel them backand find a little you about five
or six years old right,elementary school age usually is
good and then say, gosh, whatdid I really like doing?
(32:28):
Because it's a seed that wasplanted in you.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It's still there.
You might have been burying it,you might have been plucking it
out, but it's still there.
The roots are still there, andwhen you're around that age,
you're not worried about whatsociety thinks.
No, you're around that age.
You're not worried about whatsociety thinks.
No, you're not Just doingthings that bring you joy.
If you can get to the heart ofthat, you will start to find out
what really does bring you joy,what is going to bring you
(32:55):
energy, what you're naturallygood at, and then build from
there and find that thing, nomatter how ridiculous it is.
I love mysteries and so now I'mwriting a book series based on
Sherlock Holmes, because I lovedthat when I was yeah, it's a
little girl now Shirley Holmes.
I love painting and peoplewould tell me I'm so good at it,
I'm just doing it.
(33:15):
I had no training or anything.
So now I'm doing anotherportrait soon and for me it was
a lot of different things, a lotof creative things, but start
doing it again.
Make a little time.
It doesn't have to be like youdrop everything, right, you
don't have to travel to somefancy place, you don't have to
spend a lot of money.
You just have to start, see howyou feel, and if you leave that
(33:40):
activity feeling energized, thenyou know you're on the right
path.
It should flow very easily.
There should be no resistance.
It's not about you trying, it'sjust you just do and then start
to build from there.
And again, you know one of thefunny things I see whenever
someone puts out a message likeself-care, rest, people always
(34:00):
want to monetize it again.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
They turn it into this huge thing we're having a
retreat it's $5,000.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Fly to Spain Like what?
No, that's not restful, just gorest Right or, like you know,
grow your hair natural.
You know I let my hair go graynow and different things.
And then now there's all theseproducts.
I'm like I thought the wholepoint was this was supposed to
be easier and simpler.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Resist the urge to make it complicated resist the
urge to make it complicated ohmy gosh.
Resist the urge to make itcomplicated.
Not everything has to.
Oh my god, oh man.
There are so many lessons hereand honestly I think that, like
you said, the biggest resist theurge to make it complicated.
I have such a bone to pick withthe entire self-help self-care
(34:46):
industry, but that's an entireepisode on its own, so we're not
going to go down that rabbithole today.
But this was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Can you please tell everybodywhere they can find you and
experience all of the incrediblethings that you are doing for
joy?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Thank you.
You can go tojocelynhardrickcom.
That's my website and I'vetried to organize it so you can
see all the little things that Ido and you can pick the path
that makes sense to you.
And on social media I'm at JJHardrick.
So that's.
Instagram, twitter, linkedin,facebook but for the old people,
facebook's for old people.
(35:23):
Okay, I guess LinkedIn is whereI post more of my law school
pro stuff and things about lawschool, my documentary, because
I just started a productioncompany, so trying to tell more
of this history so people canunderstand the current moment.
And then on Facebook andInstagram, you'll see more of my
(35:43):
creative things and mychildren's books.
I have a children's show comingout on YouTube this summer, so
I'm excited about that.
Yeah, you know it's funny.
I work on these things foryears.
I recorded some of this footagefrom my kids show last April
and so that's why I was like howdo you do everything?
I'm like I just a little at atime.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, it's not all happening, just like that.
Yeah, a little at a time.
A little at a time.
Yeah, it's not all happening.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Just like that, yeah yeah.
So I'm excited about that andwe're, you know, celebrating joy
with kids, mindfulness,diversity and inclusion and
belonging, and through songs,and so I'm turning my books into
songs, you know, just kind ofrepurposing some of the things
I've been working on.
And I love YouTube because itjust makes it available for
people of the world, so I hopepeople can enjoy that and listen
(36:26):
.
Just, you know, if you go tomeetwithjocelyncom, you can get
on my calendar.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Let's chat, you know, about what.
Whatever is on your mind,listen, run, don't walk.
Run to the show notes and goand check her out Because,
honestly, I had the verydistinct pleasure of having
Jocelyn do a children's book,like you did the thing with the
dragon for me last year and itwas honestly, it was so cool, so
get on her calendar, go checkout her stuff.
Like just honestly, she's, she'sincredible.
(36:56):
So thank you so much for beinghere.
It was such a pleasure and,like we always say every week,
my friends, friends, you canhave success without the BS.
Stop making it complicated.
Talk to you next week.
That's it for this week.
Thanks for listening to theBusiness Blasphemy Podcast.
We'll be back next week with anew episode, but in the meantime
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