April 21, 2025 • 29 mins
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Discover why culture can’t wait. Norman Wolfe explains why your business isn’t a machine—it’s a living, breathing entity. Learn how leading with intention and building early culture is the key to sustainable growth.
Your Business Is Alive: Building Culture as a Living Organization with Norman Wolfe
In this episode of the Business Growth Architect Show, I speak with Norman Wolfe, the author of The Living Organization and founder of Quantum Leaders. Norman brings a radical and refreshing idea to the forefront: your business isn’t a machine—it’s a living, breathing entity. And just like any living thing, it must be nurtured, guided, and allowed to evolve.
We unpack one of the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs make—waiting too long to build culture. Norman shares why culture isn’t a “later” thing; it’s the soul of the business, and it starts from day one. The longer you treat your business as an extension of yourself, the harder it becomes to let it grow into something bigger. It’s not a baby you control forever. It’s a child that must be nurtured and allowed to mature.
Norman outlines a new leadership model that moves beyond strategy and operations. Instead, it focuses on building self-maturing organizations where people are empowered to lead, decide, and act. We explore how leaders can create growth by shaping the energy of the business, setting the context, and trusting their teams.
If you’re a business owner or leader looking to grow your team and scale your impact, this episode will shift how you think about leadership, culture, and your role in creating an organization that thrives without your constant control. This is not just a leadership episode—it’s a paradigm shift.
🎧 Listen now and download the first 3 chapters of The Living Organization at quantumleaders.com/podcast.
Let’s raise our businesses right.
Resources Mentioned:
Website | LinkedIn | Facebook | Youtube | The Living Organization
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Norman Wolfe (00:00):
This is Norman Wolfe. I am the founder of
(00:03):
"Quantum Leaders," as well asthe author of "The Living
Organization" and founder of TheLiving Organization Community."
On my episode for the BusinessGrowth Architect Show," I will
show you how to lead anorganization from the
perspective of it is a livingbeing, not a machine, how it
will free you up as a leader tofocus on the things that are
(00:24):
important for the growth of theorganization, not running the
day to day details and how toget your people in the
organization to take ownershipfor the success of the
collective. Head on over to thepodcast to catch the full
episode. I'm sure you'll enjoyit.
BEATE CHELETTE (00:40):
And hello, fabulous person. Beate Chelette
here. I am the host of theBusiness Growth Architect Show
and I want to welcome you totoday's episode where we discuss
how to navigate strategy andspirituality to achieve time and
financial freedom. Trulysuccessful people have learned
how to master both a clearintention and a strategy to
(01:00):
execute that in a spiritualpractice that will help them to
stay in alignment and onpurpose. Please enjoy the show
and listen to what our guesttoday has to say about this very
topic. And welcome back yourhost, Beate Chelette. Here today
with Norman Wolfe, the creatorand founder of The Living
Organization, and we're going totalk about something very, very
(01:22):
interesting today, which isactually a conversation I've
never had on the show, Norman,so I'm really excited to have
you welcome to the
Norman Wolfe (01:29):
show. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
It's an honor that you invitedme. So I
BEATE CHELETTE (01:33):
got to ask, what's a Living Organization?
Well,
Norman Wolfe (01:37):
that's a great question. I created it because I
was running into the issue ofhow difficult it is for owners,
founders, leaders oforganizations to be able to
achieve the results in today'sworld. If you look at the
statistics, McKinsey and PriceWaterhouse and all the others
run studies, and they say thatorganizations fail 70% of the
(01:57):
time to achieve their strategy,their goals, implement their new
initiatives. And as I looked atthat, I put that in the context
of the fact that we have awealth of information coming out
from academics, consultants,other leaders who have been
successful, the 30% who aresuccessful, we know how to lead
an organization. Question for mewas, Why? Why aren't we being
(02:19):
more successful? Why aren't wemoving that needle? And what I
concluded is we have a paradigm,a framework of thinking of an
organization as a machine, takesinputs, goes through this black
box and produces outputs. Andthe role of a leader is to
design that machine and to fillit with the right component
parts, whether that component asa person or a robot or a new
(02:44):
technology. The whole idea is tomake that machine efficiently,
produce, take the inputs andproduce outputs the problem. And
that's not be it. I'm notjudging it. I don't have any
judgments against In fact, inmany situations, it's perfect,
but in today's world, that'svery slow and it's cumbersome
(03:05):
and it puts a lot of pressureand demands on the leader. So I
took a different approach in myexperiences. I found the
organizations to be living intothese they're alive. They have a
soul, a purpose, a reason forexisting. And collectives when
they when collectives cometogether for a common purpose,
(03:26):
they begin to operate as if itwas a single living entity, a
person, and that collective hasa soul, a purpose, a reason for
existing, a personality, style,an interaction style, all the
things we attribute to humans.
So the living organization istaking the approach that the
best way to improve theperformance of an organization
is to find out how to optimizethe performance of this living
(03:50):
person called an organization. Ireally
BEATE CHELETTE (03:55):
love what you said. I always tell people that
work with me and we, most of theour listeners are not part of a
large organization, but they aresmall business owners,
entrepreneurs. But I do believethat there comes a point in when
you grow your business whereit's becoming its own thing. I
would say it's like a baby. Youfeed it, you teach it, you teach
(04:17):
it how to walk, you teach it howto dress, to eat. And there
comes a point when you kind oflike have to let it go out in
the world and have its ownexperiences. Is it like that? It
absolutely
Norman Wolfe (04:29):
is like that. In fact, I use that metaphor. In
fact, it was working withentrepreneurs like your
audience, that helped meunderstand this notion. I've
always heard the entrepreneurand I talk to them about their
organizations. They talk aboutit like it's their child. They
gave birth to something. It'stheir baby. They can't let go of
their baby. Well, the problemwith that is, if you treat it
like a baby, it stays a baby,right? So in the living
(04:52):
organization framework, we askleaders to think about their
organization like a child theyare racing. I love the way you
said it be about. It is tocultivate it, nurture it, help
it develop, help it grow so itcan sustain itself. In the
machine paradigm, we teachleaders to be responsible for
solving the problems of theorganization and giving guidance
(05:13):
to the people in theorganization on how to resolve
those issues, whether that bestrategy or a new initiative, or
anything else. If we did that toour children, we'd have children
that were living in our basementat the age of 35 and we're
wondering, why can't they liveon their own? But that's how we
(05:34):
treat our organization. So Itotally agree with you. The goal
of a leader is to think of it ina new way, and to help the
organization sustain, what Ishould say, to develop itself,
so that it can sustain itsgrowth as it moves out into the
world. So you're 100% spot on.
And that's why we changed thewrote the book, and that's why
we created the model, is we haveto help leaders think of an
(05:56):
organization from a differentperspective, because they're
stuck in that paradigm, and itcauses them knowing the
problems.
BEATE CHELETTE (06:03):
So my next question has to be, then,
naturally, how early do I startwith this? I mean, if I'm if I'm
by myself, I'm the CEO, let'ssay I have an outsourced team of
four or five people, maybe oneemployee, when is the time for
me to begin taking a look atthis not as an extension of
(06:23):
myself, but as its own thing,
Norman Wolfe (06:26):
I would say, almost from the beginning, when
my daughter was born, myyoungest daughter, I think I was
in my 40s, and I rememberdriving home one day and having
this sort of epiphany that I, asa parent, am not responsible for
my daughter. She has her ownsoul, and our whole purpose for
(06:47):
living here, my goal is to besteward of that soul, to help
her until she can handle it forherself. Right? So it shifted my
role. It's almost like what I'masking leaders to do, from being
the one solving her problems forher to constantly be mindful
that my goal is to help hersolve her problems for herself.
(07:07):
So give guidance, and I'm alwayslooking. I was always looking
for opportunities that showedup, experiences that she had to
make each one a learningexperience. So let's apply that
to an organization. I've got anorganization. I've got three,
four or five people, maybe,maybe there's only two of us,
right? And something's going tocome up right with two of us.
(07:30):
It's pretty easy. We have aconversation. Now let's go to
four or five people. How do Ihelp those four or five people
understand the decision I'mmaking and why? So the next time
they can do that, and then thenext experience we have is new
to them, and I help themunderstand how I'm making a
decision and why. Now we've got20 people, and I've just
(07:52):
developed four or five peoplewho can make decisions like I
do, for the good of thecollective, for the good of the
whole family, if you will, forthe good of the organization,
and they can teach their peoplehow to make decisions as they
would. So now you've got anorganization that's constantly
self maturing. I'd like to lookat it as a maturation process,
(08:13):
because that's really whatthey're doing with our children,
and therefore we're helping theorganization as a whole, grow
and grow and grow. I can't tellyou how many entrepreneurs I'm
dealing with the very questionyou asked, Why can't my people
make the better decisions ontheir own? Why do they always
need me? How do I get out fromunder the day to day stuff? And
(08:35):
let me think about the future.
Well, if you had kids thatweren't living in your basement
at the age of 35 you'd be ableto do that, so I'd start from
the very beginning.
BEATE CHELETTE (08:44):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of what you just
said that I want to unpack alittle bit. What I'm hearing you
say is that it's almost like Ifelt like if I don't do what you
just said, I'm going to bedetrimental to my growth,
because then I want to be incharge. So you are saying that,
(09:05):
how quickly can I put somebodyelse in charge? Am I hearing
this correct?
Norman Wolfe (09:08):
That's a beautiful way to say that absolutely and I
can talk about my ownorganization with new we're just
starting out. I didn't startbringing on other consultants
until about a year ago. Over thelast year, we grew to 10. I
have, from day one, when Istarted that, been paying
attention. How do I get thesepeople that are joining into
(09:29):
this community I'm building tobe able to understand the depth
of what we're trying to bringunderstand it not just at an
intellectual level, but more ofan embodied level. So I pay a
lot of I take, I take threemonths to bring somebody on
board, to take them through avery rigorous I don't even call
it Training. I call it anonboarding process, because it's
(09:52):
not about just giving theminformation. It's about
indoctrinating them and havingthem understand how I think and
why I think that way I'm.
Dictating it to them. It's anexchange of ideas, but the more
they get the notion, the more Ifeel comfortable letting them
run by themselves, right? Andthat's really what we want to
do. So I don't think it's evertoo early to start this process.
(10:13):
And it's not even a process.
It's more of a mindset shift. It
BEATE CHELETTE (10:19):
certainly is. I mean, my experience share here
would be very simple, is thatwhen we lost our belongings, our
house, our cars, my office,podcast studio, in the fires, we
were so shocked and traumatizedby what just happened that we
(10:40):
were not capable or able to makedecisions, and what we found is
that our kids, given theopportunity of being us, being
incapacitated, so to speak,stepped up to The plate. Who
knew they have the schedule.
They're picking us up. We arehaving breakfast at nine o'clock
(11:03):
here. 10 o'clock we're gonna gopick up the car. I'm going with
Gary to go here. You going withJenna to go here? We're gonna
pick up some clothes over there.
We're gonna buy underwear andsocks over here. It was all like
LA laid out we but usually wewere the ones that do that.
That's right. What is it thatshifted? Is it us letting go of
(11:29):
control? Or is it somethingelse?
Norman Wolfe (11:32):
It's probably a combination of both. First of
all, I would say you obviouslyprepared your children in a way
for them to think on the wrongwhen the now there's a dynamic
that happens. And I see this allthe time. I can even give you an
example of it, where, when youwent into relationship, people
begin to establish sort of aequilibrium about the
(11:55):
relationship. So even if I'mcapable of making decisions, if
you're always making thedecisions, I'm going to let you,
because that's sort of theequilibrium of the relationship,
right? I had a situation whereexecutives of a company were
talking about how the CEO wastoo micromanaging. So I talked
to the CEO, I got him to stop.
Next thing the executives weretelling me was he doesn't care
(12:16):
about us anymore. The changebehavior was so disruptive to
their way of being that theywere uncomfortable with it. He
gave them what they wanted, butthey weren't prepared for it,
right? So obviously, youdeveloped your kids to be able
to handle it. The gift to youwas the realization to say, hey,
I can really let go and they cantake care of it, isn't
BEATE CHELETTE (12:41):
it? The same thing, yeah, and the same thing.
Women,
Norman Wolfe (12:45):
CEOs love to have children who can take care of
the organization for them. Isn'tthat what every CEO really
wants? That's what
BEATE CHELETTE (12:53):
we want. And the same thing happened with the
business. I realized that myemployees knew what I was going
through, and they they literallyjust went, Okay, the only
decision you have to make isthis or this, and they were
repurposing content, and theywere utilizing our tools to
(13:16):
create little graphics on socialmedia, So things were still
moving forward until I landedand I was like, This is amazing.
It just shows you that the powerof being in the path of the
growth of what you're trying tobuild when you're trying to make
(13:37):
too many decisions on your own,yeah, yeah,
Norman Wolfe (13:39):
absolutely. And that's where the machine
paradigm, where the leader isrequired to make all the
decisions, just stopseverything. Crisis situations
force us to recognize where weare on the maturity curve,
whether we like it on that,
BEATE CHELETTE (13:54):
Oh, I love that.
Say that one more time. So
Norman Wolfe (13:58):
crisis situations force us to see where we are on
the maturity curve. When you arein crisis and people around you
step up. You know, they got ahigher level of maturity than
you may have thought they had.
It also tells you where you areon the maturity curve. How much
can you trust other people totake care of things like you
would normally take care of? I'msure you've learned through that
(14:19):
process that, hey, I candelegate more to my people than
I thought before, that isn'tthat wonderful now it's gone.
Now you can follow
BEATE CHELETTE (14:28):
because they have proven to me that my over
involvement, apparently, ishindering their ability to
contribute to the level they'reable to contribute. What does
this do to the people in yourorganization? How do I read the
room now? Yeah,
Norman Wolfe (14:49):
that's a great question. And again, I'll go
back to the concept of maturity.
One of the things I developedwith a couple of professors over
the last five years is aninstrument that we can measure
maturity. What are theattributes necessary that allows
us as leaders or as parents torecognize the capable of
handling more? The fundamentalthing that tells us whether
(15:09):
people can handle more is, arethey thinking? There's three
things. One is, are theythinking in terms of the bigger
picture? Are they makingdecisions necessary with all the
right kind of information. Andcan they deal with uncertainty
and complexity in those kinds ofattributes? Highly mature people
can do that. The other thing is,can they deal with, I hate to
(15:31):
use the word conflict, varietypoints of view. Can they listen
to others perspectives andbalance their decisions with
that of others perspective. Andthe third thing is, how well are
they willing to grow from theirown mistakes? Can they reflect
that? Can they learn like dothey have to protect and defend
(15:51):
their ego, so to speak? So thoseare the three major categories
we've identified as what helpsus define maturity, if you think
about it, if you think aboutwhat lets you decide that your
kids when they were younger,say, in their teenage years, I
don't know how old your kids arenow, but when they decided, how
am I going to decide I shouldlet them drive on their own? How
(16:15):
am I going to let them decidewhen they when they set their
own curfews? That's a way ofdelegating, really. And what
attributes are you looking for?
And one of the key ones is, arethey looking out for the welfare
of the collective over their ownindividual welfare, not in place
of not either or? But do theysee how making a decision for
(16:38):
the good of the collective thebigger whole, will help them be
successful. So those are some ofthe key attributes we look for
when we decide, can I give themmore authority? So part of what
we've done is broken down thatdecision making process. From
years of experience, fromworking with professors on, how
do we as leaders know how to dothat? Because it's a critical
(17:00):
question.
BEATE CHELETTE (17:02):
This is all part of this methodology you talk
about in the living organizationthat you've developed. Should we
talk about this a little bit?
And will you give us a littlebit more insights? What is part
of this methodology you develop?
Norman Wolfe (17:13):
I call it the framework. I don't like the word
methodology. I think the firstpart of it is the shift of the
paradigm, shift of the mindset.
You have to begin to think ofyour role as a leader, as
nurturing, like you said at thevery beginning, you're nurturing
and developing the capacity,which is the capability and
maturity of the organization.
(17:34):
That's your role of a leader.
You do as you said, you do haveto literally set the context.
That's another role, right? Yes,we have to define who we are,
why we exist. That usuallyemanates from the founder of the
company to begin with, and itjust becomes imbued in the
living entity we call theorganization. But you have to do
that, and you have to becauseit's the thing that brings
(17:56):
people together. It's the thingthat makes a collective of
people more than just a group,and makes it a community, and
makes it a living entity,because they're all coming
together for the common purposeof this collective. And so you
want to make sure you have thatwell defined we call that the
strategic compass. That's thetool we use to facilitate that.
And then you want to learn. Sothose are some of the key
(18:21):
skills. We got. Seven coreprinciples associated with that.
I won't take up time to gothrough all of them,
necessarily. You want to learnsome new skills as a leader,
primarily skills oriented withusing your instinct and your
intuition, your sensingmechanism, to sense what's going
around, not just your intellect,not in place of your intellect,
(18:42):
don't get me wrong, but we wantto add to it, the ability to
sense the room, as you say,well,
BEATE CHELETTE (18:52):
that's the energy. That's why our show is
about merging spirituality withstrategy, because that's the
intuition, that's the energeticconnection, the resonance you're
creating, the vibration, all
Norman Wolfe (19:02):
of that, absolutely yes. And one of the
key skills we teach leaders is,we call it heart centering, but
it's really just a methodologyto help people focus into how do
I sense that energy? In fact,the second principle of the
living organization is,everything is energy. Energy
can't be created or destroyed.
So the creation of results is aprocess of transforming energy
(19:24):
so very aligned. It's all aboutenergy.
BEATE CHELETTE (19:30):
You know, I mean it. I'm going to just ask you
this sort of an off the cuffquestion. But have you found,
like, I have that people alwayslike, look for all these
external things, and then at theend of the day, unless you start
an internal journey, theexternal will not perform
absolutely.
Norman Wolfe (19:49):
And that not only holds true for us individually,
but it holds true for thecollective, who there's a saying
by Mahatma Gandhi that goes "Bethe change you want to see in
the world," and people don'treally understand what that
means. Our state of beingness,which is the energy, the
frequency of the energy that ourbody is vibrating at in any
(20:11):
point in time, is what'smanifesting the outcomes we
experience. It's really thatsimple. So if you want to have a
different outcome. All you haveto do is change your state of
being. Principally speaking,it's easy. You and I know it's a
journey in life. Yes,
BEATE CHELETTE (20:27):
I understand exactly what you're talking
about. It's been two and a halfmonths since I've lost
everything. So my state of beingsignificantly changed, not by
choice, but I do believe thatthings happen for you and
through you and not against you.
So can we talk maybe a littlebit about so let's say
(20:49):
somebody's having a reallydifficult time right now. I just
was on the phone earlier today,spoke to somebody, and she had,
like, one really big key client,who literally fired her a couple
days ago, and it was a mainsource of income. And, you know,
it wasn't the greatestrelationship, and they took up
(21:10):
all her time. It prohibited herfrom doing all the things we
talk about, Delegate build upthe next book of business. What
are we telling people that areturning on the news, that are
looking at their portfolios,that are looking at the economy,
that are looking at their doomand gloom? What are we telling
them right now? Where's theopportunity
Norman Wolfe (21:33):
that's a tough one, B. I'm sure you, you're
living through it like
BEATE CHELETTE (21:37):
That's why I'm asking you. So I don't have to
answer it.
Norman Wolfe (21:40):
I think you've covered two or three points. I
want to circle back on. One iswhat we said about creating from
the inside out for an individualor state of being. I think it's
important to know thatcollectives do the same thing.
Companies create their outcomesby who they are collectively
being in the world. I justwanted to kind of touch back on
(22:02):
that. The other thing you talkedabout is this woman, example,
you said something I thought wasinteresting. It was a client
that wasn't really working forher anymore. It drained her, but
it provided the sense ofsecurity in the income we drive
a lot by following that insteadof our passion or our calling or
(22:28):
whatever you want to call thatright, that inner voice, it's
comforting, but it's alsodebilitating. And I have, I have
numerous experiences in my lifewhen I didn't listen to the
inner voice and how the universetold me, you will follow a
different path. And so mysuggestion there is, to the
degree we can have the courageto follow the inner voice,
(22:51):
because it's more wise than ourego based voice, 100% Yeah,
doing the right thing is alwaysvery challenging. I have yet to
experience. It gets easier themore I do it, that when I follow
that inner voice, it's scary,but I know it's the right thing,
that the answer becomes easier.
I'm willing to put through, gothrough the discomfort it
requires of me, but you don'tgrow if you don't go through
(23:13):
discomfort. There's a song Iused to listen to years ago. I
don't know the name of the song,but it had a it had a verse in
the chorus, "Ships are safewithin the harbor. But is that
what ships are made for?"
BEATE CHELETTE (23:30):
Yeah, the other, the other version of that was a
"Great sailor was never made inthe harbor."
Norman Wolfe (23:35):
That's true.
That's very true. So we we'remeant to go through these
difficulties, so why not learnto embrace them as part of our
ability to be able to do more inlife? The third one I want to
touch on was this issue of, howdo we deal with what's going on
today? And it sort of goes backto the other other two issues as
well. I'm a I'm a firm believerin working diligently, and it's
(23:57):
not an overnight thing is howthe weekend workshop, it's a
process of really finding outwhat you're meant to contribute
in this world. One of my, Imean, my calling has become very
clear to me, starting back inthe 90s. I didn't know how it
would look, but I was called towrite the book. It was literally
something I had no intention ofdoing. Somebody suggested that I
(24:22):
rebelled against it, but thevoice wouldn't go away. So I
wrote. It took me six years. Iwanted to retire when the book
came out, I think I was 64 orsomething in that range. The
voice kept saying, No, you gotmore to do. This is my calling,
my dharma, my path, my purposein life, the more we can focus
on that, the more we cannavigate through chaos, because
(24:45):
I don't care what the rest ofthe world is doing, I'm doing
what I'm meant to do. Oh, what abeautiful message. And it's the
same thing for companies. Youknow, if you go to target, if
they stay true to themselves,they. Propagated. Sure they may
get bumps and challenges alongthe way, but they would know how
to respond and stay true tothemselves. One of the companies
that I've always admired isCostco, not because they're
(25:09):
there's one of them, a majorreason they have constantly
rejected stockholders demandsthat they reduce salaries on
their employees so they can makemore money. And Costco kept
saying, No, that's not who weare. We are here to serve
people, and our employees arethe key to that. That's what
(25:31):
makes Costco successful. Andthey stay true to that. Time and
time, shareholder meeting, atthe shareholder meeting, board
meeting, after board meeting,they stay true to that, and they
stay true to it today and
BEATE CHELETTE (25:44):
and the stock price is amazing. I mean, I'm a
shareholder and I'm I think thatwe need to look at these models.
I do believe that these modelsare changing, though, that this
more money, more profits for afew shareholders, is giving back
way to an overall betterexperience for everybody.
(26:05):
Because we, if the people thatare performing for us are not
having their needs met, itcannot work. Cannot Work.
Norman Wolfe (26:16):
That's right. You know, one of the I wrote a blog
not long ago, because I was, Iwas hearing all this work about
stakeholder models, and theyalways include employees as a
stakeholder. And I wrote a blogis, employees are not
stakeholders. And the thingbehind the blog is this, if you
look at who are thestakeholders, and you take away
(26:39):
investors, take away customers,take away suppliers, take away
everything except a group ofpeople who are committed to a
common purpose. You still have avery viable organization. May
not be profitable yet, but youstill have a living entity
that's committed to creatingsomething. Take away the people.
(27:00):
You get nothing and nothing. So
BEATE CHELETTE (27:02):
that's what I think that this whole AI
conversation, AI is a tool. It's
Norman Wolfe (27:08):
a tool. Yeah, that's it. It's no different
than the PC was, or thecomputers be the mainframes
before that, or robotic or,
BEATE CHELETTE (27:17):
yeah, or Microsoft Word or Excel,
Norman Wolfe (27:19):
yes, yeah, it's just a tool, and it's not going
to replace humans. Humans areunique. There's nothing like
humans in all of natureanywhere. And the unique things
about human and the thing thatthe machine paradigm actually
destroys is we are creativebeings. We create reality
through the stories we tellthrough the meaning we make. If
(27:43):
we want to learn how to fly,we're not limited by our genetic
limitations. We figure out howto fly like birds. We figure out
how to go to the moon. We figurehow to dive deep into the ocean
like fish. We are phenomenal,creating beings. And when you
put people in boxes and say,You're a component part fitting
(28:05):
into this machine, you kill thatvery soul that very slowly
BEATE CHELETTE (28:09):
do, yeah. You literally do, yeah. You
literally do that. Where canpeople go and find about, find
out more about your work, and toget the book?
Norman Wolfe (28:18):
The book is on Amazon, "The Living
Organization" by Norman Wolfe,they are willing to go there.
Are welcome to go to my website,quantumleaders.com/podcast, and
they have access to the firstthree chapters for free. They
can contact me through eitherthe quantum leaders website,
(28:39):
which is my consulting company,quantumleaders.com, or they can
go throughthelivingorganization.com right
now, they both go to the samewebsite, but we're, we're
launching a new website for justThe Living Organization
Community within the next fewmonths. Wonderful.
BEATE CHELETTE (28:55):
Thank you so much, Norman, it's been an
absolute pleasure to have you onthe show. I really enjoyed the
connections that you made withthe people and the organization,
yes, and being in purpose,because listening to you, it's a
trifecta. It all connects witheach other.
Norman Wolfe (29:18):
It's a integrated, holistic system. It's not a
separate piece of components,people over here or business
over there. That's a bifurcationthat we should eliminate. Yeah,
BEATE CHELETTE (29:28):
I love that very much. Well, thank you so much
for being on the show. Amazing.
It was really fun. Thank you somuch and goodbye. So appreciate
you being here. Thank you somuch for listening to the entire
episode. Please subscribe to thepodcast. Give us a five star,
review, a comment and share thisepisode with one more person, so
that you can help us help morepeople. Thank you again, until
(29:51):
next time. Goodbye.
This is Norman Wolfe. I am the founder of
(00:03):
"Quantum Leaders," as well asthe author of "The Living
Organization" and founder of TheLiving Organization Community."
On my episode for the BusinessGrowth Architect Show," I will
show you how to lead anorganization from the
perspective of it is a livingbeing, not a machine, how it
will free you up as a leader tofocus on the things that are
(00:24):
important for the growth of theorganization, not running the
day to day details and how toget your people in the
organization to take ownershipfor the success of the
collective. Head on over to thepodcast to catch the full
episode. I'm sure you'll enjoyit.
BEATE CHELETTE (00:40):
And hello, fabulous person. Beate Chelette
here. I am the host of theBusiness Growth Architect Show
and I want to welcome you totoday's episode where we discuss
how to navigate strategy andspirituality to achieve time and
financial freedom. Trulysuccessful people have learned
how to master both a clearintention and a strategy to
(01:00):
execute that in a spiritualpractice that will help them to
stay in alignment and onpurpose. Please enjoy the show
and listen to what our guesttoday has to say about this very
topic. And welcome back yourhost, Beate Chelette. Here today
with Norman Wolfe, the creatorand founder of The Living
Organization, and we're going totalk about something very, very
(01:22):
interesting today, which isactually a conversation I've
never had on the show, Norman,so I'm really excited to have
you welcome to the
Norman Wolfe (01:29):
show. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
It's an honor that you invitedme. So I
BEATE CHELETTE (01:33):
got to ask, what's a Living Organization?
Well,
Norman Wolfe (01:37):
that's a great question. I created it because I
was running into the issue ofhow difficult it is for owners,
founders, leaders oforganizations to be able to
achieve the results in today'sworld. If you look at the
statistics, McKinsey and PriceWaterhouse and all the others
run studies, and they say thatorganizations fail 70% of the
(01:57):
time to achieve their strategy,their goals, implement their new
initiatives. And as I looked atthat, I put that in the context
of the fact that we have awealth of information coming out
from academics, consultants,other leaders who have been
successful, the 30% who aresuccessful, we know how to lead
an organization. Question for mewas, Why? Why aren't we being
(02:19):
more successful? Why aren't wemoving that needle? And what I
concluded is we have a paradigm,a framework of thinking of an
organization as a machine, takesinputs, goes through this black
box and produces outputs. Andthe role of a leader is to
design that machine and to fillit with the right component
parts, whether that component asa person or a robot or a new
(02:44):
technology. The whole idea is tomake that machine efficiently,
produce, take the inputs andproduce outputs the problem. And
that's not be it. I'm notjudging it. I don't have any
judgments against In fact, inmany situations, it's perfect,
but in today's world, that'svery slow and it's cumbersome
(03:05):
and it puts a lot of pressureand demands on the leader. So I
took a different approach in myexperiences. I found the
organizations to be living intothese they're alive. They have a
soul, a purpose, a reason forexisting. And collectives when
they when collectives cometogether for a common purpose,
(03:26):
they begin to operate as if itwas a single living entity, a
person, and that collective hasa soul, a purpose, a reason for
existing, a personality, style,an interaction style, all the
things we attribute to humans.
So the living organization istaking the approach that the
best way to improve theperformance of an organization
is to find out how to optimizethe performance of this living
(03:50):
person called an organization. Ireally
BEATE CHELETTE (03:55):
love what you said. I always tell people that
work with me and we, most of theour listeners are not part of a
large organization, but they aresmall business owners,
entrepreneurs. But I do believethat there comes a point in when
you grow your business whereit's becoming its own thing. I
would say it's like a baby. Youfeed it, you teach it, you teach
(04:17):
it how to walk, you teach it howto dress, to eat. And there
comes a point when you kind oflike have to let it go out in
the world and have its ownexperiences. Is it like that? It
absolutely
Norman Wolfe (04:29):
is like that. In fact, I use that metaphor. In
fact, it was working withentrepreneurs like your
audience, that helped meunderstand this notion. I've
always heard the entrepreneurand I talk to them about their
organizations. They talk aboutit like it's their child. They
gave birth to something. It'stheir baby. They can't let go of
their baby. Well, the problemwith that is, if you treat it
like a baby, it stays a baby,right? So in the living
(04:52):
organization framework, we askleaders to think about their
organization like a child theyare racing. I love the way you
said it be about. It is tocultivate it, nurture it, help
it develop, help it grow so itcan sustain itself. In the
machine paradigm, we teachleaders to be responsible for
solving the problems of theorganization and giving guidance
(05:13):
to the people in theorganization on how to resolve
those issues, whether that bestrategy or a new initiative, or
anything else. If we did that toour children, we'd have children
that were living in our basementat the age of 35 and we're
wondering, why can't they liveon their own? But that's how we
(05:34):
treat our organization. So Itotally agree with you. The goal
of a leader is to think of it ina new way, and to help the
organization sustain, what Ishould say, to develop itself,
so that it can sustain itsgrowth as it moves out into the
world. So you're 100% spot on.
And that's why we changed thewrote the book, and that's why
we created the model, is we haveto help leaders think of an
(05:56):
organization from a differentperspective, because they're
stuck in that paradigm, and itcauses them knowing the
problems.
BEATE CHELETTE (06:03):
So my next question has to be, then,
naturally, how early do I startwith this? I mean, if I'm if I'm
by myself, I'm the CEO, let'ssay I have an outsourced team of
four or five people, maybe oneemployee, when is the time for
me to begin taking a look atthis not as an extension of
(06:23):
myself, but as its own thing,
Norman Wolfe (06:26):
I would say, almost from the beginning, when
my daughter was born, myyoungest daughter, I think I was
in my 40s, and I rememberdriving home one day and having
this sort of epiphany that I, asa parent, am not responsible for
my daughter. She has her ownsoul, and our whole purpose for
(06:47):
living here, my goal is to besteward of that soul, to help
her until she can handle it forherself. Right? So it shifted my
role. It's almost like what I'masking leaders to do, from being
the one solving her problems forher to constantly be mindful
that my goal is to help hersolve her problems for herself.
(07:07):
So give guidance, and I'm alwayslooking. I was always looking
for opportunities that showedup, experiences that she had to
make each one a learningexperience. So let's apply that
to an organization. I've got anorganization. I've got three,
four or five people, maybe,maybe there's only two of us,
right? And something's going tocome up right with two of us.
(07:30):
It's pretty easy. We have aconversation. Now let's go to
four or five people. How do Ihelp those four or five people
understand the decision I'mmaking and why? So the next time
they can do that, and then thenext experience we have is new
to them, and I help themunderstand how I'm making a
decision and why. Now we've got20 people, and I've just
(07:52):
developed four or five peoplewho can make decisions like I
do, for the good of thecollective, for the good of the
whole family, if you will, forthe good of the organization,
and they can teach their peoplehow to make decisions as they
would. So now you've got anorganization that's constantly
self maturing. I'd like to lookat it as a maturation process,
(08:13):
because that's really whatthey're doing with our children,
and therefore we're helping theorganization as a whole, grow
and grow and grow. I can't tellyou how many entrepreneurs I'm
dealing with the very questionyou asked, Why can't my people
make the better decisions ontheir own? Why do they always
need me? How do I get out fromunder the day to day stuff? And
(08:35):
let me think about the future.
Well, if you had kids thatweren't living in your basement
at the age of 35 you'd be ableto do that, so I'd start from
the very beginning.
BEATE CHELETTE (08:44):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of what you just
said that I want to unpack alittle bit. What I'm hearing you
say is that it's almost like Ifelt like if I don't do what you
just said, I'm going to bedetrimental to my growth,
because then I want to be incharge. So you are saying that,
(09:05):
how quickly can I put somebodyelse in charge? Am I hearing
this correct?
Norman Wolfe (09:08):
That's a beautiful way to say that absolutely and I
can talk about my ownorganization with new we're just
starting out. I didn't startbringing on other consultants
until about a year ago. Over thelast year, we grew to 10. I
have, from day one, when Istarted that, been paying
attention. How do I get thesepeople that are joining into
(09:29):
this community I'm building tobe able to understand the depth
of what we're trying to bringunderstand it not just at an
intellectual level, but more ofan embodied level. So I pay a
lot of I take, I take threemonths to bring somebody on
board, to take them through avery rigorous I don't even call
it Training. I call it anonboarding process, because it's
(09:52):
not about just giving theminformation. It's about
indoctrinating them and havingthem understand how I think and
why I think that way I'm.
Dictating it to them. It's anexchange of ideas, but the more
they get the notion, the more Ifeel comfortable letting them
run by themselves, right? Andthat's really what we want to
do. So I don't think it's evertoo early to start this process.
(10:13):
And it's not even a process.
It's more of a mindset shift. It
BEATE CHELETTE (10:19):
certainly is. I mean, my experience share here
would be very simple, is thatwhen we lost our belongings, our
house, our cars, my office,podcast studio, in the fires, we
were so shocked and traumatizedby what just happened that we
(10:40):
were not capable or able to makedecisions, and what we found is
that our kids, given theopportunity of being us, being
incapacitated, so to speak,stepped up to The plate. Who
knew they have the schedule.
They're picking us up. We arehaving breakfast at nine o'clock
(11:03):
here. 10 o'clock we're gonna gopick up the car. I'm going with
Gary to go here. You going withJenna to go here? We're gonna
pick up some clothes over there.
We're gonna buy underwear andsocks over here. It was all like
LA laid out we but usually wewere the ones that do that.
That's right. What is it thatshifted? Is it us letting go of
(11:29):
control? Or is it somethingelse?
Norman Wolfe (11:32):
It's probably a combination of both. First of
all, I would say you obviouslyprepared your children in a way
for them to think on the wrongwhen the now there's a dynamic
that happens. And I see this allthe time. I can even give you an
example of it, where, when youwent into relationship, people
begin to establish sort of aequilibrium about the
(11:55):
relationship. So even if I'mcapable of making decisions, if
you're always making thedecisions, I'm going to let you,
because that's sort of theequilibrium of the relationship,
right? I had a situation whereexecutives of a company were
talking about how the CEO wastoo micromanaging. So I talked
to the CEO, I got him to stop.
Next thing the executives weretelling me was he doesn't care
(12:16):
about us anymore. The changebehavior was so disruptive to
their way of being that theywere uncomfortable with it. He
gave them what they wanted, butthey weren't prepared for it,
right? So obviously, youdeveloped your kids to be able
to handle it. The gift to youwas the realization to say, hey,
I can really let go and they cantake care of it, isn't
BEATE CHELETTE (12:41):
it? The same thing, yeah, and the same thing.
Women,
Norman Wolfe (12:45):
CEOs love to have children who can take care of
the organization for them. Isn'tthat what every CEO really
wants? That's what
BEATE CHELETTE (12:53):
we want. And the same thing happened with the
business. I realized that myemployees knew what I was going
through, and they they literallyjust went, Okay, the only
decision you have to make isthis or this, and they were
repurposing content, and theywere utilizing our tools to
(13:16):
create little graphics on socialmedia, So things were still
moving forward until I landedand I was like, This is amazing.
It just shows you that the powerof being in the path of the
growth of what you're trying tobuild when you're trying to make
(13:37):
too many decisions on your own,yeah, yeah,
Norman Wolfe (13:39):
absolutely. And that's where the machine
paradigm, where the leader isrequired to make all the
decisions, just stopseverything. Crisis situations
force us to recognize where weare on the maturity curve,
whether we like it on that,
BEATE CHELETTE (13:54):
Oh, I love that.
Say that one more time. So
Norman Wolfe (13:58):
crisis situations force us to see where we are on
the maturity curve. When you arein crisis and people around you
step up. You know, they got ahigher level of maturity than
you may have thought they had.
It also tells you where you areon the maturity curve. How much
can you trust other people totake care of things like you
would normally take care of? I'msure you've learned through that
(14:19):
process that, hey, I candelegate more to my people than
I thought before, that isn'tthat wonderful now it's gone.
Now you can follow
BEATE CHELETTE (14:28):
because they have proven to me that my over
involvement, apparently, ishindering their ability to
contribute to the level they'reable to contribute. What does
this do to the people in yourorganization? How do I read the
room now? Yeah,
Norman Wolfe (14:49):
that's a great question. And again, I'll go
back to the concept of maturity.
One of the things I developedwith a couple of professors over
the last five years is aninstrument that we can measure
maturity. What are theattributes necessary that allows
us as leaders or as parents torecognize the capable of
handling more? The fundamentalthing that tells us whether
(15:09):
people can handle more is, arethey thinking? There's three
things. One is, are theythinking in terms of the bigger
picture? Are they makingdecisions necessary with all the
right kind of information. Andcan they deal with uncertainty
and complexity in those kinds ofattributes? Highly mature people
can do that. The other thing is,can they deal with, I hate to
(15:31):
use the word conflict, varietypoints of view. Can they listen
to others perspectives andbalance their decisions with
that of others perspective. Andthe third thing is, how well are
they willing to grow from theirown mistakes? Can they reflect
that? Can they learn like dothey have to protect and defend
(15:51):
their ego, so to speak? So thoseare the three major categories
we've identified as what helpsus define maturity, if you think
about it, if you think aboutwhat lets you decide that your
kids when they were younger,say, in their teenage years, I
don't know how old your kids arenow, but when they decided, how
am I going to decide I shouldlet them drive on their own? How
(16:15):
am I going to let them decidewhen they when they set their
own curfews? That's a way ofdelegating, really. And what
attributes are you looking for?
And one of the key ones is, arethey looking out for the welfare
of the collective over their ownindividual welfare, not in place
of not either or? But do theysee how making a decision for
(16:38):
the good of the collective thebigger whole, will help them be
successful. So those are some ofthe key attributes we look for
when we decide, can I give themmore authority? So part of what
we've done is broken down thatdecision making process. From
years of experience, fromworking with professors on, how
do we as leaders know how to dothat? Because it's a critical
(17:00):
question.
BEATE CHELETTE (17:02):
This is all part of this methodology you talk
about in the living organizationthat you've developed. Should we
talk about this a little bit?
And will you give us a littlebit more insights? What is part
of this methodology you develop?
Norman Wolfe (17:13):
I call it the framework. I don't like the word
methodology. I think the firstpart of it is the shift of the
paradigm, shift of the mindset.
You have to begin to think ofyour role as a leader, as
nurturing, like you said at thevery beginning, you're nurturing
and developing the capacity,which is the capability and
maturity of the organization.
(17:34):
That's your role of a leader.
You do as you said, you do haveto literally set the context.
That's another role, right? Yes,we have to define who we are,
why we exist. That usuallyemanates from the founder of the
company to begin with, and itjust becomes imbued in the
living entity we call theorganization. But you have to do
that, and you have to becauseit's the thing that brings
(17:56):
people together. It's the thingthat makes a collective of
people more than just a group,and makes it a community, and
makes it a living entity,because they're all coming
together for the common purposeof this collective. And so you
want to make sure you have thatwell defined we call that the
strategic compass. That's thetool we use to facilitate that.
And then you want to learn. Sothose are some of the key
(18:21):
skills. We got. Seven coreprinciples associated with that.
I won't take up time to gothrough all of them,
necessarily. You want to learnsome new skills as a leader,
primarily skills oriented withusing your instinct and your
intuition, your sensingmechanism, to sense what's going
around, not just your intellect,not in place of your intellect,
(18:42):
don't get me wrong, but we wantto add to it, the ability to
sense the room, as you say,well,
BEATE CHELETTE (18:52):
that's the energy. That's why our show is
about merging spirituality withstrategy, because that's the
intuition, that's the energeticconnection, the resonance you're
creating, the vibration, all
Norman Wolfe (19:02):
of that, absolutely yes. And one of the
key skills we teach leaders is,we call it heart centering, but
it's really just a methodologyto help people focus into how do
I sense that energy? In fact,the second principle of the
living organization is,everything is energy. Energy
can't be created or destroyed.
So the creation of results is aprocess of transforming energy
(19:24):
so very aligned. It's all aboutenergy.
BEATE CHELETTE (19:30):
You know, I mean it. I'm going to just ask you
this sort of an off the cuffquestion. But have you found,
like, I have that people alwayslike, look for all these
external things, and then at theend of the day, unless you start
an internal journey, theexternal will not perform
absolutely.
Norman Wolfe (19:49):
And that not only holds true for us individually,
but it holds true for thecollective, who there's a saying
by Mahatma Gandhi that goes "Bethe change you want to see in
the world," and people don'treally understand what that
means. Our state of beingness,which is the energy, the
frequency of the energy that ourbody is vibrating at in any
(20:11):
point in time, is what'smanifesting the outcomes we
experience. It's really thatsimple. So if you want to have a
different outcome. All you haveto do is change your state of
being. Principally speaking,it's easy. You and I know it's a
journey in life. Yes,
BEATE CHELETTE (20:27):
I understand exactly what you're talking
about. It's been two and a halfmonths since I've lost
everything. So my state of beingsignificantly changed, not by
choice, but I do believe thatthings happen for you and
through you and not against you.
So can we talk maybe a littlebit about so let's say
(20:49):
somebody's having a reallydifficult time right now. I just
was on the phone earlier today,spoke to somebody, and she had,
like, one really big key client,who literally fired her a couple
days ago, and it was a mainsource of income. And, you know,
it wasn't the greatestrelationship, and they took up
(21:10):
all her time. It prohibited herfrom doing all the things we
talk about, Delegate build upthe next book of business. What
are we telling people that areturning on the news, that are
looking at their portfolios,that are looking at the economy,
that are looking at their doomand gloom? What are we telling
them right now? Where's theopportunity
Norman Wolfe (21:33):
that's a tough one, B. I'm sure you, you're
living through it like
BEATE CHELETTE (21:37):
That's why I'm asking you. So I don't have to
answer it.
Norman Wolfe (21:40):
I think you've covered two or three points. I
want to circle back on. One iswhat we said about creating from
the inside out for an individualor state of being. I think it's
important to know thatcollectives do the same thing.
Companies create their outcomesby who they are collectively
being in the world. I justwanted to kind of touch back on
(22:02):
that. The other thing you talkedabout is this woman, example,
you said something I thought wasinteresting. It was a client
that wasn't really working forher anymore. It drained her, but
it provided the sense ofsecurity in the income we drive
a lot by following that insteadof our passion or our calling or
(22:28):
whatever you want to call thatright, that inner voice, it's
comforting, but it's alsodebilitating. And I have, I have
numerous experiences in my lifewhen I didn't listen to the
inner voice and how the universetold me, you will follow a
different path. And so mysuggestion there is, to the
degree we can have the courageto follow the inner voice,
(22:51):
because it's more wise than ourego based voice, 100% Yeah,
doing the right thing is alwaysvery challenging. I have yet to
experience. It gets easier themore I do it, that when I follow
that inner voice, it's scary,but I know it's the right thing,
that the answer becomes easier.
I'm willing to put through, gothrough the discomfort it
requires of me, but you don'tgrow if you don't go through
(23:13):
discomfort. There's a song Iused to listen to years ago. I
don't know the name of the song,but it had a it had a verse in
the chorus, "Ships are safewithin the harbor. But is that
what ships are made for?"
BEATE CHELETTE (23:30):
Yeah, the other, the other version of that was a
"Great sailor was never made inthe harbor."
Norman Wolfe (23:35):
That's true.
That's very true. So we we'remeant to go through these
difficulties, so why not learnto embrace them as part of our
ability to be able to do more inlife? The third one I want to
touch on was this issue of, howdo we deal with what's going on
today? And it sort of goes backto the other other two issues as
well. I'm a I'm a firm believerin working diligently, and it's
(23:57):
not an overnight thing is howthe weekend workshop, it's a
process of really finding outwhat you're meant to contribute
in this world. One of my, Imean, my calling has become very
clear to me, starting back inthe 90s. I didn't know how it
would look, but I was called towrite the book. It was literally
something I had no intention ofdoing. Somebody suggested that I
(24:22):
rebelled against it, but thevoice wouldn't go away. So I
wrote. It took me six years. Iwanted to retire when the book
came out, I think I was 64 orsomething in that range. The
voice kept saying, No, you gotmore to do. This is my calling,
my dharma, my path, my purposein life, the more we can focus
on that, the more we cannavigate through chaos, because
(24:45):
I don't care what the rest ofthe world is doing, I'm doing
what I'm meant to do. Oh, what abeautiful message. And it's the
same thing for companies. Youknow, if you go to target, if
they stay true to themselves,they. Propagated. Sure they may
get bumps and challenges alongthe way, but they would know how
to respond and stay true tothemselves. One of the companies
that I've always admired isCostco, not because they're
(25:09):
there's one of them, a majorreason they have constantly
rejected stockholders demandsthat they reduce salaries on
their employees so they can makemore money. And Costco kept
saying, No, that's not who weare. We are here to serve
people, and our employees arethe key to that. That's what
(25:31):
makes Costco successful. Andthey stay true to that. Time and
time, shareholder meeting, atthe shareholder meeting, board
meeting, after board meeting,they stay true to that, and they
stay true to it today and
BEATE CHELETTE (25:44):
and the stock price is amazing. I mean, I'm a
shareholder and I'm I think thatwe need to look at these models.
I do believe that these modelsare changing, though, that this
more money, more profits for afew shareholders, is giving back
way to an overall betterexperience for everybody.
(26:05):
Because we, if the people thatare performing for us are not
having their needs met, itcannot work. Cannot Work.
Norman Wolfe (26:16):
That's right. You know, one of the I wrote a blog
not long ago, because I was, Iwas hearing all this work about
stakeholder models, and theyalways include employees as a
stakeholder. And I wrote a blogis, employees are not
stakeholders. And the thingbehind the blog is this, if you
look at who are thestakeholders, and you take away
(26:39):
investors, take away customers,take away suppliers, take away
everything except a group ofpeople who are committed to a
common purpose. You still have avery viable organization. May
not be profitable yet, but youstill have a living entity
that's committed to creatingsomething. Take away the people.
(27:00):
You get nothing and nothing. So
BEATE CHELETTE (27:02):
that's what I think that this whole AI
conversation, AI is a tool. It's
Norman Wolfe (27:08):
a tool. Yeah, that's it. It's no different
than the PC was, or thecomputers be the mainframes
before that, or robotic or,
BEATE CHELETTE (27:17):
yeah, or Microsoft Word or Excel,
Norman Wolfe (27:19):
yes, yeah, it's just a tool, and it's not going
to replace humans. Humans areunique. There's nothing like
humans in all of natureanywhere. And the unique things
about human and the thing thatthe machine paradigm actually
destroys is we are creativebeings. We create reality
through the stories we tellthrough the meaning we make. If
(27:43):
we want to learn how to fly,we're not limited by our genetic
limitations. We figure out howto fly like birds. We figure out
how to go to the moon. We figurehow to dive deep into the ocean
like fish. We are phenomenal,creating beings. And when you
put people in boxes and say,You're a component part fitting
(28:05):
into this machine, you kill thatvery soul that very slowly
BEATE CHELETTE (28:09):
do, yeah. You literally do, yeah. You
literally do that. Where canpeople go and find about, find
out more about your work, and toget the book?
Norman Wolfe (28:18):
The book is on Amazon, "The Living
Organization" by Norman Wolfe,they are willing to go there.
Are welcome to go to my website,quantumleaders.com/podcast, and
they have access to the firstthree chapters for free. They
can contact me through eitherthe quantum leaders website,
(28:39):
which is my consulting company,quantumleaders.com, or they can
go throughthelivingorganization.com right
now, they both go to the samewebsite, but we're, we're
launching a new website for justThe Living Organization
Community within the next fewmonths. Wonderful.
BEATE CHELETTE (28:55):
Thank you so much, Norman, it's been an
absolute pleasure to have you onthe show. I really enjoyed the
connections that you made withthe people and the organization,
yes, and being in purpose,because listening to you, it's a
trifecta. It all connects witheach other.
Norman Wolfe (29:18):
It's a integrated, holistic system. It's not a
separate piece of components,people over here or business
over there. That's a bifurcationthat we should eliminate. Yeah,
BEATE CHELETTE (29:28):
I love that very much. Well, thank you so much
for being on the show. Amazing.
It was really fun. Thank you somuch and goodbye. So appreciate
you being here. Thank you somuch for listening to the entire
episode. Please subscribe to thepodcast. Give us a five star,
review, a comment and share thisepisode with one more person, so
that you can help us help morepeople. Thank you again, until
(29:51):
next time. Goodbye.
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