Episode 108 Gamify the Journey, Multiply the Loyalty: How Mark Stern is Reinventing Customer Experience Frederick Dudek (Freddy D) Copyright 2025 Prosperous Ventures, LLC
Mark Stern from Custom Box Agency joins us today to dive deep into how to create unforgettable customer experiences that transform casual buyers into loyal superfans. With a rich background as a Forbes Next 1000 honoree and a former strategy consultant, Mark shares his insights on gamification and the power of blending physical and digital strategies to engage customers like never before.
He emphasizes the importance of defining clear success pathways for clients, making their journey not only easier but also more enjoyable. By removing obstacles and focusing on memorable experiences, businesses can significantly enhance customer retention and advocacy. Get ready to explore how to elevate your brand and turn your customers into your biggest cheerleaders!
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The discussion with Mark Stern was rich with strategies for building customer loyalty through innovative marketing techniques. He emphasized that in today's fast-paced digital landscape, businesses must prioritize creating engaging experiences over simply pushing information. Through examples from his work at Custom Box Agency, Mark illustrated how gamification and thoughtful customer journey mapping can elevate brand interactions. The episode also touched on the evolution of marketing strategies, particularly the resurgence of direct mail as a means to capture attention amidst the digital clutter.
Mark provided actionable insights on defining success for customer journeys, encouraging businesses to visualize and gamify the steps their customers take. This not only enhances the user experience but also fosters a deeper emotional connection between brands and their customers, setting the stage for a loyal following.
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Takeaways:
- Mark Stern emphasizes the importance of creating experiences rather than just delivering information to clients.
- Gamification in business is not just a trend; it's a powerful strategy to enhance customer engagement and retention.
- Physical touchpoints in marketing, like direct mail, can significantly outperform digital strategies in terms of customer response rates.
- Defining success in clear, tangible terms helps guide customers through their journey and ensures they feel accomplished along the way.
- Creating products that are not only functional but also collectible can enhance customer loyalty and keep your brand top of mind.
- Effective customer engagement hinges on understanding the customer's journey and providing clear pathways to success.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Custom Box Agency
- Deloitte
- ClickFunnels
- 57 Hats
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(01:37):
Hey, superfans superstarFreddie D. Here. In this episode
108, we're joined by MarkStern, a visionary entrepreneur and
a powerhouse behind Custom BoxAgency. Mark is a Forbes Next 1000
honoree, SXSW startup mentor,and former top strategy consultant
at Deloitte. With an MBA fromDuke and featured in Joey Coleman's
(02:01):
Never Lose an Employee Again,Mark brings an incredible blend of
strategic thinking andcreative innovation to the world
of customer experience. As afounder of multiple ventures including
active deck and 57 hats, andthe creator of the upcoming Built
by podcast, Mark is on amission to transform how brands engage
(02:21):
and retain customers throughphysical to digital strategies, gamification,
and unforgettable experiencedesign. Get ready for a conversation
packed with bold ideas, smartsystems, and insights that can help
turn your customers intolifelong superfans.
Hey, it's Freddie D. Here withanother episode of the Business Superfan
(02:41):
podcast. We're super excitedto have Mark Stern from Custom Box
Agency.
I'm thrilled to be here,Freddie D.
Thank you for having me.
So, Mark, tell us a little bitabout what's the backstory? How did
Custom Box Agency come all about?
It was not meant to be thebusiness. When I left Corporate America,
I left Corporate America in2018 and started building a business
(03:02):
in virtual events.
And virtual summits were likethe big.
Thing that a lot of peoplewere doing in that model. It's like
you're interviewing 30 to 40people and it's leveraged as a lead
generation tool.
But you would dump these 30 to.
40 interviews on someone andtell them they had 24 hours to listen
to a subset of them, otherwisethey lose access. And the challenge
(03:22):
I was having is I build allthis content and. And then it would
get gated and when peoplewould purchase it, it was.
Just overwhelming to kind ofdump 40.
Hours of content on them andnot have an easy way to navigate
it.
So where a lot of this started.
Is when I started doing thesevirtual events or virtual summits,
I had just wished that peoplewould send me the.
Tools and resources I neededout of.
The gates to be set up for.
(03:43):
Success and get an outcomefaster. And so we started doing that
with.
The products we launched. Andit didn't matter if it was a virtual
event or if it was.
A course or a coaching program.
In my mind, how do I literally.
Send you everything you needto have a result faster?
And the theory of this isremove the obstacles that are preventing
our people.
From being set up for successout of the gate.
(04:03):
And what I mean by that is ifyou require me to print something
out. You just put up a hurdlebecause you're assuming I have a
printer. It has paper, it hasink, it's hooked up to my computer.
I'm organized. When I printeverything out, if you just send
me what I need, you take thatobstacle out of the table. And as
we started to transition intoCovid, this idea became more and
more relevant because we wereall dislocated, we.
(04:26):
Were all in quarantine. Andthe power of being able to.
Send you something was a bigdifferentiator that a lot of people
weren't doing.
And so this business juststarted to.
Grow during the pandemic.
Yeah, it's kind of like alittle bit of old school where everybody
does email nowadays. And yetpeople overlook that one of the best
marketing strategies is directmail. It works. So you're really
(04:48):
doing the same thing but in adifferent way.
It's funny that you say thatbecause it's true that what's old
is new again.
And it's amazing how much of a differentiator.
We like to talk about thisidea of what is experience because
we experience through our senses.
And when we go more and moredigital, and especially this rise
of AI.
The digital channels prettymuch tap into.
What you see and what you hear.
(05:08):
It doesn't tap into touch,taste, smell. Activating more senses
creates more of an experience.It's hard to replace walking through
Disney.
World or going to yourfavorite restaurant.
But when I mail you something,it's a huge differentiator, especially
if the physical can complimentdigital. And so I'm with you to say,
I think direct mail and thephysical game, especially as it aligns
(05:29):
to digital, is just becomingmore and more relevant in this age
of AI.
Yeah, it's basically reallydifferentiates you, just like you
said Mark. And then the otherpart of it is from a marketing perspective,
there's nothing really betterbecause email gets buried. I mean,
there's times people said,hey, I've sent you an email, didn't
get it. Oh, forgot to checkjunk mail. And this way I've even
(05:51):
told people, postcardmarketing is actually a great way
of marketing because it's noteven in an envelope. So you're going
to get at least that 10, 15seconds, they're going to see it.
You have a micro chance ofhaving something happen with it.
And that's the power ofsending a box.
When you send somethingphysical, like a box, something bulkier
in the mail, People alwayslove receiving physical things in
(06:13):
the mail. They're going toopen it and so you See open rates
for a direct.
Mail campaign versus openrates for email. It's night and day
when you start.
To look at the numbers becauseyou're getting these numbers up in
the 90 plus percentage ofpeople opening, whereas email open
rates are significantly lower.
And so it's just a way tostand out.
Yeah. So tell us a little bitabout how does Custom Box work?
(06:34):
Yeah. So what we do at CustomBox Agency is we anchor everything
on the customer journey. Andso basically what we want to look
at is if I know how.
Important if you're selling aproduct or.
Service, the way that thisworks is there's a pathway that exists
in some capacity on how you'retaking your customers.
From onboarding or start hereto the desired outcome.
(06:54):
So we get really clear withour clients on what is that pathway
to success. And once we knowthat I can gamify your business,
I can build an entire physicalproduct around it. What we tell clients
is that there's threedifferent types of campaigns and
it's all aligned to thecustomer lifecycle. Is your goal
customer acquisition? That ishow people find you to.
Buying your products and services.
(07:14):
Or is your goal delivery,which is you bought my product and
service. This is onboarding togetting the outcome.
Or is it retention? Retentioncould be recognition. You hit a milestone,
I want to celebrate you.
It could be the next journeythat they need to go on or other.
Means to increase lifetimevalue. So we look at things in the.
Lens of is your goalacquisition, delivery or retention?
And through that lens, thestrategy and.
(07:36):
How we'd approach building aphysical product.
Changes because the goal ofthat product is different. And that's
it.
So that's what we anchor on.
And from there we can go through.
Your product or your businessor your.
Strategy and then literallycreate a physical resource around
what it is that you do.
Well, that's really clever.And you hit the three things. And
I think it also can gofurther. And you got dealing with
(07:58):
suppliers, distributors,complementary businesses, ancillary
businesses, contractors thatyou're working with gives the ability
for a company to really hittheir entire ecosystem.
You're right.
And when we work with clients, we.
Want to make it as easy aspossible. We can not only strategize
and lay.
Out the groundwork and theplan, but.
We can do all the design. Weare a distributor, we can send everything
(08:22):
and manage the entireproduction process. And we do have
a warehouse so we can holdyour inventory and ship it out globally.
But you're right, we have ahuge partner network as a result.
But our goal Is if we only didthe strategy, it becomes overwhelming
to think through how to putall the pieces together. So the benefit
of being end to end is we cannot only help you realize what is
possible, but we.
(08:43):
Can bring it to life and thenmanage the distribution globally
or in the.
United States or in your localmarket for you. So we really try
and make it as easy aspossible because there are a lot
of moving pieces for us. Wehave it down to a work of art.
It's for me, like eatingcandy, how.
Much fun we have with what we do.
Absolutely. And before westart recording, you showed me a
couple of different productsand you said one of them was a game
(09:04):
for a law firm. So expand uponthat. How does that really come about?
Yeah. So we had this box righthere that we created a holding box
for a law firm that when they work.
With clients, a lot of what their.
Clientele is personal injurythey've gotten in car accidents,
and. And there's a certainmethodology of things that they want
their clients to do.
To maximize their potentialclaim. And so what we did was we.
(09:26):
Just went through theirprocess, broke it down into phases,
and basically turned it into aboard game that if you follow it
step by step, you literallywill be set up for success to.
Get the maximum claim at theend of the process.
And so this is. That's aperfect example of just how.
Do we make it stand outdifferently for them. And so it's
(09:46):
been really cool to.
See how they've been able toleverage it. Games are powerful,
though, in terms of just howyou can leverage that as a modality.
Because why do I like games?Well, I know that when you make things
into a game, it feels like anew opportunity. It feels like something
different. And on top of that,like these resources that we create,
I don't want.
You to throw it out. I wantyou to keep them.
So as we engineer theseexperiences for.
(10:07):
Our clients, it truly isthinking through.
What do you already save inyour life? And how do I create a
product that makes you want tohave it taking up real estate in
your household?
That's brilliant because youjust turn something that'd be mundane
into something that's kind offun. And that changes the whole equation
because now they're going toget more engaged versus here's a
(10:29):
booklet, and there's 300pages, which is boring as everything
and nobody ever reads it.
Yeah, so I'm kind of like,like a third grader in the sense
of.
Like, I like pretty pictures,not more.
Black and white words.
And so if you can visually show.
Me how to navigate theprocess, you're going to win me so
much f. So this is where someof the products we take.
It's one thing to say, go reada book.
(10:49):
We have this product that justhit the market called 57 Hats.
The goal of this product isit's an interactive experience, leveraging
cards and a.
Game board to help you quicklyidentify how many hats you're wearing
in your business. And that'sjust giving you, as a business owner,
a powerful vernacular becauseyou may not realize the hats that
you're wearing. But until youcan really see visually.
(11:10):
Oh, this is why I'moverwhelmed, or.
This is why a member of myteam is overwhelmed. It's a really
powerful modality. Then goread this book. You are literally
being able to manage it. Andwe've been seeing people come to.
Us saying in 10 to 15 minutes.
They'Ve had massivebreakthroughs just leveraging this
one product that helped themsee massive gaps in their business
and the opportunity to get outof the day to day.
(11:32):
And so that's like the power of.
Physical is that we canaccelerate that.
Learning curve by just takingyou through.
An experience and it feelslike a new opportunity.
Oh, that's really wonderful. Ilike the idea of what you guys have
got because you're right. Whenwe talked earlier, I've never heard
anybody come up with somethinglike this, but it's really a complete
game changer because you'recreating engagement on all levels.
(11:53):
And engagement, there's justso much packed into that because
it's the simplicity of if Iknow where you are in my process,
because I have a really welldefined process, then I know how
to provide the best support toyou. So with the law firm as an example,
they have six different phasesin terms of how they navigate people
through the process. You cansee here we have it on the side of
the box, kind.
Of their journey that they goon. If I know you're at a certain
(12:16):
point in the process, then Iknow how to have a more tailored
conversation.
To you, and we just turn itinto a fun, interactive experience.
And so I want to know is if Iknow where you are along any of the
journeys we build out, I knowwhat kind of conversation to have.
If you're stuck, I know how toget you unstuck because I know exactly
where you are and what peopleusually go through at that point
in the process.
And beyond that, I see it as acomplete differentiator in business
(12:38):
because you've got the let'sstick with the law firm there, they're
shopping around different lawfirms, perhaps trying to get a feel
who's going to take care ofthem the best. That's a completely
game changing differentiatorbecause someone's going to go, wow,
these other guys gave me apamphlet, 300 pages. And here's something
that I can understand, numberone. Number two, it makes it easy
(13:00):
for me to understand theservices and how these guys are going
to help me complete gamechanger deals done.
And what's cool about what youjust described, it's leveraging it
as an acquisition strategy.And so that's a perfect example to
say let us send you this kitthat literally will set you up for
success. If it's leveraged asan acquisition play, it can be a
really powerful nurture playto start to build a relationship.
(13:22):
You know, 57 hats is anexample, is not a delivery play,
it's an acquisition play.Because how we're leveraging this
is a free plus ship, just payshipping. We'll send you out the
box set.
But the goal is that as you.
Start to uncover other gaps inyour business or if I introduce and
show you new pain points thatyou know you want to address, you
know, our goal is we have thesolutions to.
(13:42):
Ascend you on the back end to.
Other higher ticket productsand services. But we're leveraging
this as a way to stand out inthe marketplace as something different.
And again, if you help someone get.
A breakthrough, they become asuper fan.
Okay, you're right, they are asuper fan.
Like how what's next? How Altium.
This is working for me.
What's the next thing you cando to help me?
Yeah, and it's the same thinggoing with the existing customers
(14:04):
because you can use that for,as we talked earlier, for retention.
That can turn into a referralmechanism that you create a super
fan out of that customer. Thatcustomer becomes your sales force.
And that word of mouthmarketing, you can't pay for it.
But more importantly, itcollapses the whole sales cycle because
(14:25):
now that person says, oh,Johnny says I need to go talk to
Mark. I'm just going to gotalk to Mark. I'm not price shopping,
I'm not doing anything elsebecause Johnny said Mark's the dude.
Boom. And on the retention, Imean that's just scratching the surface.
The great thing about theretention aspect of this realm is
I can show you a different example.
We have a client in theinsurance space.
(14:46):
One of the things that we dois part of retention is also recognition.
Can I show you a Pathway tosuccess and want you to keep playing
the game to ascend to the nextpathway. ClickFunnels, if you're
familiar with ClickFunnels,does this brilliantly with their
2 comma Club Award.
It's a retention play becausein order to earn the award, there's
lots of.
People out there that wantthat plaque on their wall.
(15:07):
They defined a game and said, in.
Order to get this, you need togenerate a million dollars in a funnel
using ClickFunnels.
If you don't use clickfunnels,you won't qualify.
So it's a really powerfulrecognition play.
But it's also retention playin the.
Same realm for the insuranceclient. I don't know if you remember
when the United States wasreleasing a new.
Quarter for every state.
Do you remember that? I thinkthat may have been almost 20 years
(15:30):
ago, but this was the USupdated the quarter and on the back
of every quarter represented adifferent state.
And they were slowlyintroducing new states. My father
and I had a coin.
Board of the United States andas we would collect the quarters,
we would.
Push it into the coin board.
And in the spirit ofcollection, collection is a retention
(15:52):
strategy because you want.
To collect them all. We tookthe same concept with this.
Client and said as theyprogress through the different phases,
they could earn a.
Coin and their coin they can press.
Into their coin board. Wewanted them to see gaps missing to
make them say, I want tocomplete the series, which is a really
powerful retention play.
(16:13):
There's different ways toenvision this that say, I'm starting
to play this game.
What I don't want is just oneof the three pieces. It's no different
than we've done it with boxesas well. This insider on the wall
behind me, these three tiles,there's three different boxes. You
can get box one of three, butin order to get box two.
Of three and three of three,those are retention plays.
(16:33):
I want to create this gap that.
You'Re going to want to keep playing.
The game in order to collectall the pieces. And by the way, when
you make it through, you'regoing to be at.
A different place in yourbusiness, which is really powerful.
So in the spirit of superfans,this gamification and even incentive
structure is a.
Really powerful retention play.
Could you share Mark with ourlisteners a story of how you've helped
(16:56):
a company gamify theirbusiness that in turn creates huge
growth for their business?
There's a couple I can tellyou. We had a client that is on the
print on demand space. WeIntroduced a box with their challenge.
What was so powerful about itis when we introduced box, it doubled
the.
Amount of people who joinedthe challenge.
So you saw their intake doublein size and then on the back end.
(17:19):
Their back end offer alsodoubled in.
Terms of sales, which 4x thepower of the campaign. But in addition
to that, because we.
Gamified every step of theprocess for this entry product, the
amount of social.
Proof of activating theirsuperfans and their audience. It
was incredible because he hadpictures after pictures because he
incentivized people when.
They hit certain junctions toshare or to post, which created all
(17:43):
this excitement.
And so that's a powerfulexample of it. We had a client in
the finance.
Space, she has a massivevirtual event.
When we introduced box as partof her virtual event strategy, two
things happened.
Her show up rates increased by 17%.
So more people were showing up.
And then she doubled herbacking conversion.
Which just showed that theonly thing that had changed and she
(18:04):
had been executing this eventfor years. The only thing that changed
with this test was sheintroduced the box as a powerful
strategy. We had anotherclient that had a massive Launch
for a $2,000 product and shehad a coaching program, generally
about 3,000 people to 4,000people enroll in.
Every year when she makes itavailable. The one thing that we
(18:25):
did was.
To say you're welcome to get a.
Refund at any point. All weask you to do is.
Send back your box. Just likeif you were to buy something on Amazon,
if you wanted to return it, toget your refund back, you need to
return the item. And we sawher refund rates in the first 30
days drop down to less thanhalf a percent. So like when you're
talking about multi milliondollar launch, huge impact. And on
(18:49):
top of that, you get thesocial proof and the excitement and
the guidance because a lot ofwhat we want to do with these vox
experiences.
I see so many businesses dumpthe outcome on you, saying you bought
product.
Because you want this result.But it's overwhelming because they
don't have that pathway toshow me how I get from the beginning
to the end. And if I can showyou, let's.
Break it down into smallphases or small steps.
(19:09):
If you complete phase one and are.
Now on phase two, I can show.
You you've gone through atransformation because you're no
longer at the beginning,you're one step closer to the end.
But you see the pathway and Ican start to get you into momentum.
And that's exactly what we'reseeing with our students. As well.
So there's so many differentcases like that that we see even
for us testing out thisproduct hitting the market 57 hats.
(19:30):
What's been amazing about itis the.
Amount of people who want topartner with us or collaborate us
or build their own front endbusiness tools.
Just as a showcase of seeingour product.
It's been such a fun thing towatch introduced to the market and
even.
With our cold traffic ads onFacebook, a lot of people have their
thoughts.
On the paid traffic game right now.
(19:51):
Especially with meta out ofthe gate. Within our first week we
were able to take thiscampaign with our ads that we were
testing to be break even. Soit was self liquidating and now profitable
almost within a week of launching.
The product and testing the funnel.
So that's what's beenincredible of the power of introducing
something physical as adifferentiator in this game.
That's great stories actually.Overall, one of the things that you
(20:13):
said I want to kind ofreemphasize is it helps somebody
manage the process andunderstand where they're at in the
process. When I was sellingsoftware back in the day, the biggest
thing that I had done thatdifferentiated me and created my
success was I never got stuckinto the technology. I really talked
about the business aspects andhow technology is going to impact
(20:36):
the business. And then a lotof times I worked what I would call
the sale backwards because ofthe fact that people say, well we
bought it, we expect to beproductive next week. It doesn't
work that way. And so we wouldlay out all the steps that were necessary
for them to reachprofitability. But I had to do it
on a marker board and theywould write it all down because we
(20:59):
would collectively do it. Sowhat you've done is taken that process
and you've gamified it and nowthey've got something that they can
measure where they're at. Thereason I'm bringing it up because
it can become a good salestool for people selling technology
or whatever type of products.It's going to take some time to get
it implemented and get it setup into an organization because they
(21:20):
get to run their old way asthey're implementing the new way.
And this gives them a roadmap.
I mean, to me it's everything just.
Because it allows me to reallysee where we are in the process.
And so that is for me, whenclients come and spend a day with
us in Austin, like that is exactly.
What I need to clearly break down.
Because without it, I can'tbuild a process. And so that's why
(21:40):
seeing that 10,000 foot viewwhen you build that journey map out
and it's very high level interms of what I would show a client.
That's sales collateral,that's material that I can put as
part of my pitch because I canshow you. Let me show you the 10,000
foot.
View of how we're going to getyou that result.
A lot of people in the salesprocess don't do a good job of that.
And so that's kind of whereit's really cool that when we go
through this experience, howmuch sales collateral gets created
(22:04):
for our clients just becausewe're forcing them to get clear on
how.
They'Re selling their productor getting that.
Result for their customer.
That's why I was sosuccessful. As I talked about the
strategy and theimplementation of the technology.
And I would clearly say, hey,there's three other products in the
market space that do exactlywhat we do, otherwise they wouldn't
be in business. But here's howwe're going to help you achieve your
(22:28):
business goals. And it changedthe whole conversation.
Wow.
I can totally see for me like,I love that. It's exactly what we
love to hear.
Now you're helping businessesdo that in a very clever way. Wish
that would have existed like20 years ago.
It's a lot easier now. I willtell you that I was going to say
20 years ago. Such a differentgame and where we are. Never would
have imagined we'd be havingthe conversations around AI that
(22:50):
we are these days.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe process that you go through with
the companies. Let's just pickhome improvement. I do kitchen remodeling.
So what we do is there's onething that we look at in the forefront.
We'll take you through ourvirtual strategy session. This is
because we need to understandthe scope of the business. And so
one of the things we talkabout with clients is that we call
it the Tele2 journeys.
(23:10):
There's a journey in terms ofhow people can navigate through your
products and services. Andthen for every product or service.
I can click in and there couldbe a journey of how I should navigate
it. So if I have an entirecomprehensive program that has courses
and coaching and done for youand whatnot, I probably have a clear
value ladder of how I want tosend people or send people throughout
(23:32):
or how they should be engagingwith me.
But for the course, I could build.
A process for the coachingprogram, I could build a process
for the done for you, I canbuild a process around as well. And
so that's why knowing how Inavigate through your business is
one journey and then if Iclick into the product or service
I bought, that's a separatejourney. So knowing what the big
vision is of the business iswhere we really anchor people. So
(23:52):
in this, like you may beselling product A, B or C, but.
There'S a whole universe ofhow you can.
When we build any experienceout, it.
Needs to be about focused onthe product or service they bought.
But we need to seed your universe.
That is really importantbecause too many businesses sell
the thing, but they forget totell their customer or clients all.
The other ways that they canserve them.
(24:14):
And then if they don't know, they're.
Going to look for thosesolutions outward.
So this is kind of where anyexperience I want to delve deep on.
The process or the product or service.
But I also want to tell thestory of your universe. So we like
to anchor on what's the bigvision, what's the goals of the business,
what are some of the obstaclesthat you're facing. We like to see
your team structure and all ofthe pieces. We like to get a sense
(24:34):
of your brand identity andyour product suite. We'd love to
get a sense of.
How you currently acquirecustomers and do.
You have social proof? Sothat's kind of where we start because
what ends up happening issometimes people have come to us
saying I'd love to build anexperience here. And then we delve
into their business and we canquickly say that's an opportunity.
But let me show you some otheropportunities to consider just based
(24:55):
on the nature of knowing whatthe pieces of the business are. And
then from there what typicallyhappens is once we know the product
or service we want to starton, people typically love to fly
to Austin just because you cansee so many modalities of how we
built out these experiences.
Across so many different industries.
And then we literally willbreak down your business and come
up with the blueprint of whatwe're going to build out.
(25:16):
So that's a lot of where weanchor from there.
Once we land on the blueprint,we like to show clients, here's the
story, here's the experience,here's a very high level journey
that we identified and thenwe'd like to give you your numbers
if you were to move forwardwith this campaign based on the inputs
that you gave us. Here's aforecasting model of potential revenue
generated as well as potentialprofitability, taking into consideration
(25:38):
the hard cost of goods, thebuild out, all the factors, shipping.
So you know your numbersbefore you get into our process.
And so that's really importantfor us to see the potential upside,
to make.
Sure that the campaign makes sense.
And then from there, when youlook at the numbers, we love to bring
it to life. So we'll bring tolife the campaign and get it out
to market, and we can managethat process end to end, whether
you have us do the warehousingand fulfillment or whether you have.
(26:00):
Your own solution as well.
So that's where we play. Andso just given the nature of.
Any business, it just allowsus to.
Go deeper and be a lot moreintimate. And I think that that's
really key here, because whenwe build out these experiences, it's
an enabler to your businessstrategy. So if we don't go deeper
into what it is that you'redoing, we don't want to do is engineer
an experience with these boxesthat doesn't lead people to the natural
(26:24):
next step as.
To what your business strategy is.
I hope that made sense.
Yeah, no, it totally does. Andwhere I was just thinking is that,
for example, the homeimprovement industry is probably
notorious for doing a greatjob and then disappearing, and you
never hear from them again.And so I see this as a mechanism,
one to help acquire, but as wetalked earlier, is another mechanism
(26:48):
to turn that customer into asuper fan and giving that company
an ability to maintain arelationship with the customer.
It can be.
And so you're right in the sense.
Of I can build a whole processor experience around the first engagement
we do with your home.
And I can also start to introduce.
Other capabilities, whateverthe types of things.
(27:08):
That you should consider,could consider.
And then from a retentionstandpoint, how do I stay top of
mind? Because a lot ofretention in that game is being top
of mind. And whether it is thenext part of the equation, whether
it's a flat mailer orpostcard. We know, we talked about
postcards prior to this call.There's so many different ways that
you could do to be top ofmind. Because I think I read a statistic
that was 80% of people buyfrom the person, the first person
(27:33):
that sells to them. And soespecially if this is someone that
has worked with you and had agood experience, the question is,
how do you continue to be topof mind? So they know that you are
diversified in some regards ofother things that you can do to help
them.
Because out of sight, out ofmind. Years ago, when I got divorced,
I had to sell the house and Ihad two realtors and they helped
(27:54):
get the sale. It worked outbecause my ex wife didn't like one
of the realtors, but she likedthe other one. So we get stuff done,
but after it's all done andover with and moved into an apartment
for a little while. And thenonce everything got wrapped up, I
was going to look for a house.I never heard from those people again.
I went with somethingcompletely different of a realtor
(28:14):
because I couldn't even findtheir business cards. Never heard
from them, nothing.
It's crazy too because you'reright, it's money on the table that
they're leaving just simply bynot re engaging their clientele base,
you've created a cool tool.
That can act as that.
And I mean I can't even tellyou that for even us when we've.
Introduced things like when weintroduced awards.
And recognition and if youwanted to create your own custom
(28:35):
plaques or things like that,we didn't tell clients initially
that that was something thatwe can support with. We can support
with really anything that.
Goes to print live event signage.
And so it's amazing how justmaking them aware of other ways that
you can serve them. And againit can be introduced when.
You introduce the capability.
I mean I have this capabilityto help with awards or to help with.
(28:56):
Live event signage or tradeshow booths.
But if I do and I just letthem know part of it's just the education,
they may go, I did not evenknow you did that. And that's a powerful
means to say for me it mayresult in lifetime.
Value, increasing lifetimevalue of the customers for them.
They know that they know likeand trust me because they've worked
with me before and they don'thave to worry about is this person
(29:17):
going to do.
What they say or deliver the quality.
That they're going to saybecause they already have that expectation
and a good experience of whatit's like working with me.
So that is like the power of.
That to leverage that as a reengagement.
For sure, it's a hugemechanism because same thing I would
do when I had resellers ordistributors around the world. I
wouldn't just recognize theagency, we would make plaques and
(29:38):
give it to the agency. But Ialso would recognize the sales rep
that was selling the most ofmy product. Because at the end of
the day it wasn't the owner ofthe agency selling, it was their
sales guy or gal. And so toget mind share when you got 60 distributors
in different parts of theworld, how do you differentiate yourself?
And that was one of the waysis I would recognize the individual
(30:00):
that sold the most of myproduct as well as the agency.
Boom. You're right. And, like,there is just so much there, but
the power of recognition withthe awards. Again, people don't throw
out awards. You put their nameon something, they.
Keep it for life.
And so that's one of the mostpowerful modalities.
And so now you're taking up real.
Estate in their householdbecause you gave them something that
(30:22):
recognized them.
One of my quotes in my book ispeople crawl through broken glass
for appreciation. Recognition.
Yeah, 100%.
I heard a quote from Brooke Castillo.
Who'S a life coach and trains,certifies people on being a life
coach. But she said, a lot ofpeople, the last time they were recognized
was their high schoolgraduation. And I take it a step
(30:43):
further to say the last timethat they were recognized or seen,
maybe their high schoolgraduation, but also maybe, I would
say your wedding day.
But for a lot of people, theydon't feel seen.
And it's a really powerfulthing when you can come forward and
recognize them forachievement. So just defining that
strategy for your.
Clients so they can then take it.
Down to their people, It's apowerful way to build super fans.
(31:03):
It's totally. It's what Iwrote in the book. And you've got
a nice platform that allows todo that. So do you have any major
takeaways that you can sharewith the audience that they can put
into play?
Yeah, I have two that I can share.
The first one is anytime wedefine customer journey. So if you're
thinking about how am.
I guiding my customers to an outcome.
You always start with the endin mind.
(31:24):
So what does success look like?
A lot of business owners don't do.
A good job defining success.And what I mean by that, I like to
use the analogy of if.
You'Re running a race oryou're running a marathon.
If I were to break a marathondown into three phases, I could say.
Phase one is preparing for themarathon, phase two is running the
marathon, and.
Phase three is post marathon.Like, when you finish the marathon.
(31:48):
What's powerful about this issuccess in this, to me is, have you
earned the medal? Because Iknow that if you've earned.
The medal at the end of the.
Race, you have successfullystarted and completed the race. And
so it is a physical emblem, wecall them jewels, that define success.
It's the same thing when yougraduate from college or university.
(32:10):
If you have the diploma, thenI know without a shadow of a doubt
you've completed the journey.Through college and.
And receive the diploma. Iknow if you're a boy scout.
And you have your Eagle Scoutand you have the Eagle Scout badge,
that you've successfully gonefrom Cub Scout to achieving it.
I know that if you're doingkarate and you start with a white
belt and your goal is to getthe black belt and you earn the black.
(32:31):
Belt, without a shadow of a doubt.
You'Ve been successful on that journey.
We, as business owners do notdo a good job of defining what success
is.
The black belt, thediplomatic, the super bowl ring,
the thing that is undeniable.
I achieved this outcomebecause we haven't, as business owners,
I see this again and again.
Done a good job defining whatis success.
And so when you define what success.
(32:53):
Is for your customer, andthere's so.
Many ways to do it, it couldbe black and white.
If you're in the weight loss space.
It'S hard to say, lose £20,because losing £20 for Person A versus
Person B can be very differentthings. But I can set up parameters
of success, and that justallow people to know, have I been
successful in this process?
Yes or no? Not.
(33:15):
I think I've been successful.I think I hit it. And so this is
the thing that I would justsay, any journey, we want to define
success.
We want to define outcome onthe end.
Because if I have that as aback end, I can go back to the beginning
and say, okay, how are weonboarding people and preparing them
for this journey?
And have I set up the mechanics.
The phases to take them fromthe beginning to the end to get that
(33:37):
outcome? And so this is kindof where it actually takes a lot
of pressure off the businessowner if you have.
A clear definition for whatsuccess looks like. For me, it's
a box.
Did we launch a box at the.
End of the process?
If we didn't, then we weren'tsuccessful because that's what we
do.
Like, you're hiring us tobuild this whole physical experience.
So if I know this is my jewelwithout a shadow of a doubt, that
we successfully completed thisprocess without that, we have. It's
(34:00):
very black and white. Sothat's the first thing I would tell
people, just in terms of howto start to think about it. And the
second thing is we love thisidea of leading with intentionality,
especially with the things we save.
And so just to give you nuggets.
About how we think about thebox experiences, I know that things
like a book, when you read abook, you put it on a bookshelf.
You typically don't throw outa book.
(34:22):
So you'll see a lot of the.
Experiences that we build area little bit bigger than a book.
We'll brand the spine becauseI want.
You to put it on yourbookshelf. Things with replayability.
A board game. You don't playMonopoly and then throw it out.
You don't play golf with your golf.
Clubs and then throw your golf clubs.
Out of that basketball.
Same thing with DVD CDs.
You don't watch them maybeonce and just throw out the dvd.
(34:43):
My dad still has his eighttrack tapes and his records. Even
though he has no means to playhis eight track tapes. And records
are coming back. You have aneight track player.
I don't have an eight trackplayer, but I do have records. I
do have a whole closet overhere full of books and training materials
and everything else.
It's so funny to think of the.
Strategy of why do I savethis? Because there's that element
(35:04):
of replayability. So this iskind of where like.
The reusability, thereplayability, how we think.
About that and experiencepeople save. In the last two categories,
Recognition that we've alreadyhit on. If you put something like,
I'm never going to throw outmy graduation diploma. It's a piece
of paper. It is a piece ofpaper that costs the university two
or $3. But we save it for ourlives, like the rest of our lives.
(35:26):
And the last one is collection.
It defines who we are.
Defines who we are andsomething we're proud of.
It's something that'srecognizing us for an achievement.
Yeah, I got plaques. I gotplaques. I totally agree. Because
I got plaques of being numberone sales guy up on the wall right
there. They got ribbons. WhenI was in a drafting of all awards
I got for drafting, doingdesign work.
There are empty nesters.
(35:47):
People whose kids havegraduated and moved out of the house
that they still have in theirchildren's room. The soccer trophy
they got when they.
Were three or four years old.
Like, it's amazing how justthe power of recognition.
And the last category is collection.
Things that you collect.Beanie babies, pogs, baseball cards,
Lego sets, stamps, coins.
(36:07):
The inherent nature of collection.
If I'm collecting, and this isa perfect example, if I was collecting
all the quarters and this USmap, I'm never going to throw it
out because it's the desire tocomplete the collection.
And when the collection'scomplete, you typically.
Don'T turn around and throw it out.
There's value and meaning into this.
And so thinking about thatintentionality, if you are going
to play the physical game.This is kind of where I'm very much
(36:29):
against swag.
We joke and say swag meansstuff without a goal.
Stop sending swag because whenyou put your branded stuff out there,
that's about.
You in that mug you saw ondiscount mugs or 4imprint.
Like the problem with that isif I have no connection and we're
talking about superfans, if Idon't have that.
Connection and community andI'm not a.
Super fan, it's stuff andstuff gets.
(36:51):
Left in the hotel or thrown out.
Or given the goodwill.
And so that intentionality isa really, really powerful means to
really stand out differently.
I think those are my nuggets.
I hope these were good.
Those are very well said,excellent nuggets because they're
great takeaways for ourlisteners because you're creating
a feeling and people willforget what you said, people will
(37:12):
forget what you've done, butnobody will forget how you made them
feel. You know, your custombox agency creates a feeling.
I think it's so important thisday and age and especially as AI
just becomes more. Thisdigital distrust you're seeing, it's
so powerful. I mean, we arehuman, we like touch, we need touch.
It's just we're losing thatelement when we go so extreme digital.
(37:33):
And you're right in terms ofthat emotional connection and making
it feel more personal andmaking it feel more for.
Me and helping me be moresuccessful. I think that's the power
of.
And that's how youdifferentiate yourself in business.
So, Mark, it's been a greatconversation, a lot of excellent
information for our listeners.Hope that they've taken notes and
how can people find you?
(37:54):
Yeah, thank you for asking.
Easiest thing to do is you cango to customboxagency.com, check
out our website and then youcan always look me up on LinkedIn
or Facebook. Feel free tomessage me. We love connecting with
people. We love hearing whatyou do. If you go to our website,
you can schedule a freeconsultation with a member of our
team and we can help you thinkabout how can you deploy this strategy
in your business.
You have something as agiveaway too for our listeners?
(38:15):
Yeah. We built a productcalled Activate. Activate Deck is
a tool to help business ownerseasily lay out their customer acquisition
strategy. So we wereleveraging the power of cards as
a modality to help youvisualize how people discover you
to buying your products andservices. And if you go to activateseries.com
(38:36):
what's really powerful aboutthat is you can opt in for free.
We have about 20 differentblueprints of how different seven
and eight figure businessowners are acquiring customers and
you can.
See their exact blueprint forhow we do it.
So we'd love to give that as a gift.
That's a wonderful gift. We'llmake sure that's in the show notes
for our listeners. And Mark,thank you again so much for your
time and being a guest on abusiness Superfans podcast.
(38:58):
Freddie D. Thank you forhaving me.
This has been a lot of fun.
Hey Superfans superstarFreddie D. Here. Before we wrap,
here's your three A playbookpower move to attract ideal clients,
turn them into advocates, andaccelerate your business success.
So here's a top insight fromtoday's episode. If you want to accelerate
business growth, stop dumpinginformation and start engineering
(39:20):
experiences that show peopleexactly how to win. So here's your
business growth action step.Design a physical or digital success
journey map that breaks yourcustomer's path into clear, gamified
milestones that they canvisibly complete. Then reward progress
to keep momentum alive. Iftoday's conversation sparked an idea
(39:44):
for you, or you know of afellow business leader who could
benefit, share it with them.Support the show with the donation
and grab the full breakdown inthe show notes. Let's accelerate
together and start creatingbusiness super fans who champion
your brand.
Hey, superfans superstarFreddie D. Here. In this episode
108, we're joined by MarkStern, a visionary entrepreneur and
a powerhouse behind Custom BoxAgency. Mark is a Forbes Next 1000
honoree, SXSW startup mentor,and former top strategy consultant
at Deloitte. With an MBA fromDuke and featured in Joey Coleman's
(02:01):
Never Lose an Employee Again,Mark brings an incredible blend of
strategic thinking andcreative innovation to the world
of customer experience. As afounder of multiple ventures including
active deck and 57 hats, andthe creator of the upcoming Built
by podcast, Mark is on amission to transform how brands engage
(02:21):
and retain customers throughphysical to digital strategies, gamification,
and unforgettable experiencedesign. Get ready for a conversation
packed with bold ideas, smartsystems, and insights that can help
turn your customers intolifelong superfans.
Hey, it's Freddie D. Here withanother episode of the Business Superfan
(02:41):
podcast. We're super excitedto have Mark Stern from Custom Box
Agency.
I'm thrilled to be here,Freddie D.
Thank you for having me.
So, Mark, tell us a little bitabout what's the backstory? How did
Custom Box Agency come all about?
It was not meant to be thebusiness. When I left Corporate America,
I left Corporate America in2018 and started building a business
(03:02):
in virtual events.
And virtual summits were likethe big.
Thing that a lot of peoplewere doing in that model. It's like
you're interviewing 30 to 40people and it's leveraged as a lead
generation tool.
But you would dump these 30 to.
40 interviews on someone andtell them they had 24 hours to listen
to a subset of them, otherwisethey lose access. And the challenge
(03:22):
I was having is I build allthis content and. And then it would
get gated and when peoplewould purchase it, it was.
Just overwhelming to kind ofdump 40.
Hours of content on them andnot have an easy way to navigate
it.
So where a lot of this started.
Is when I started doing thesevirtual events or virtual summits,
I had just wished that peoplewould send me the.
Tools and resources I neededout of.
The gates to be set up for.
(03:43):
Success and get an outcomefaster. And so we started doing that
with.
The products we launched. Andit didn't matter if it was a virtual
event or if it was.
A course or a coaching program.
In my mind, how do I literally.
Send you everything you needto have a result faster?
And the theory of this isremove the obstacles that are preventing
our people.
From being set up for successout of the gate.
(04:03):
And what I mean by that is ifyou require me to print something
out. You just put up a hurdlebecause you're assuming I have a
printer. It has paper, it hasink, it's hooked up to my computer.
I'm organized. When I printeverything out, if you just send
me what I need, you take thatobstacle out of the table. And as
we started to transition intoCovid, this idea became more and
more relevant because we wereall dislocated, we.
(04:26):
Were all in quarantine. Andthe power of being able to.
Send you something was a bigdifferentiator that a lot of people
weren't doing.
And so this business juststarted to.
Grow during the pandemic.
Yeah, it's kind of like alittle bit of old school where everybody
does email nowadays. And yetpeople overlook that one of the best
marketing strategies is directmail. It works. So you're really
(04:48):
doing the same thing but in adifferent way.
It's funny that you say thatbecause it's true that what's old
is new again.
And it's amazing how much of a differentiator.
We like to talk about thisidea of what is experience because
we experience through our senses.
And when we go more and moredigital, and especially this rise
of AI.
The digital channels prettymuch tap into.
What you see and what you hear.
(05:08):
It doesn't tap into touch,taste, smell. Activating more senses
creates more of an experience.It's hard to replace walking through
Disney.
World or going to yourfavorite restaurant.
But when I mail you something,it's a huge differentiator, especially
if the physical can complimentdigital. And so I'm with you to say,
I think direct mail and thephysical game, especially as it aligns
(05:29):
to digital, is just becomingmore and more relevant in this age
of AI.
Yeah, it's basically reallydifferentiates you, just like you
said Mark. And then the otherpart of it is from a marketing perspective,
there's nothing really betterbecause email gets buried. I mean,
there's times people said,hey, I've sent you an email, didn't
get it. Oh, forgot to checkjunk mail. And this way I've even
(05:51):
told people, postcardmarketing is actually a great way
of marketing because it's noteven in an envelope. So you're going
to get at least that 10, 15seconds, they're going to see it.
You have a micro chance ofhaving something happen with it.
And that's the power ofsending a box.
When you send somethingphysical, like a box, something bulkier
in the mail, People alwayslove receiving physical things in
(06:13):
the mail. They're going toopen it and so you See open rates
for a direct.
Mail campaign versus openrates for email. It's night and day
when you start.
To look at the numbers becauseyou're getting these numbers up in
the 90 plus percentage ofpeople opening, whereas email open
rates are significantly lower.
And so it's just a way tostand out.
Yeah. So tell us a little bitabout how does Custom Box work?
(06:34):
Yeah. So what we do at CustomBox Agency is we anchor everything
on the customer journey. Andso basically what we want to look
at is if I know how.
Important if you're selling aproduct or.
Service, the way that thisworks is there's a pathway that exists
in some capacity on how you'retaking your customers.
From onboarding or start hereto the desired outcome.
(06:54):
So we get really clear withour clients on what is that pathway
to success. And once we knowthat I can gamify your business,
I can build an entire physicalproduct around it. What we tell clients
is that there's threedifferent types of campaigns and
it's all aligned to thecustomer lifecycle. Is your goal
customer acquisition? That ishow people find you to.
Buying your products and services.
(07:14):
Or is your goal delivery,which is you bought my product and
service. This is onboarding togetting the outcome.
Or is it retention? Retentioncould be recognition. You hit a milestone,
I want to celebrate you.
It could be the next journeythat they need to go on or other.
Means to increase lifetimevalue. So we look at things in the.
Lens of is your goalacquisition, delivery or retention?
And through that lens, thestrategy and.
(07:36):
How we'd approach building aphysical product.
Changes because the goal ofthat product is different. And that's
it.
So that's what we anchor on.
And from there we can go through.
Your product or your businessor your.
Strategy and then literallycreate a physical resource around
what it is that you do.
Well, that's really clever.And you hit the three things. And
I think it also can gofurther. And you got dealing with
(07:58):
suppliers, distributors,complementary businesses, ancillary
businesses, contractors thatyou're working with gives the ability
for a company to really hittheir entire ecosystem.
You're right.
And when we work with clients, we.
Want to make it as easy aspossible. We can not only strategize
and lay.
Out the groundwork and theplan, but.
We can do all the design. Weare a distributor, we can send everything
(08:22):
and manage the entireproduction process. And we do have
a warehouse so we can holdyour inventory and ship it out globally.
But you're right, we have ahuge partner network as a result.
But our goal Is if we only didthe strategy, it becomes overwhelming
to think through how to putall the pieces together. So the benefit
of being end to end is we cannot only help you realize what is
possible, but we.
(08:43):
Can bring it to life and thenmanage the distribution globally
or in the.
United States or in your localmarket for you. So we really try
and make it as easy aspossible because there are a lot
of moving pieces for us. Wehave it down to a work of art.
It's for me, like eatingcandy, how.
Much fun we have with what we do.
Absolutely. And before westart recording, you showed me a
couple of different productsand you said one of them was a game
(09:04):
for a law firm. So expand uponthat. How does that really come about?
Yeah. So we had this box righthere that we created a holding box
for a law firm that when they work.
With clients, a lot of what their.
Clientele is personal injurythey've gotten in car accidents,
and. And there's a certainmethodology of things that they want
their clients to do.
To maximize their potentialclaim. And so what we did was we.
(09:26):
Just went through theirprocess, broke it down into phases,
and basically turned it into aboard game that if you follow it
step by step, you literallywill be set up for success to.
Get the maximum claim at theend of the process.
And so this is. That's aperfect example of just how.
Do we make it stand outdifferently for them. And so it's
(09:46):
been really cool to.
See how they've been able toleverage it. Games are powerful,
though, in terms of just howyou can leverage that as a modality.
Because why do I like games?Well, I know that when you make things
into a game, it feels like anew opportunity. It feels like something
different. And on top of that,like these resources that we create,
I don't want.
You to throw it out. I wantyou to keep them.
So as we engineer theseexperiences for.
(10:07):
Our clients, it truly isthinking through.
What do you already save inyour life? And how do I create a
product that makes you want tohave it taking up real estate in
your household?
That's brilliant because youjust turn something that'd be mundane
into something that's kind offun. And that changes the whole equation
because now they're going toget more engaged versus here's a
(10:29):
booklet, and there's 300pages, which is boring as everything
and nobody ever reads it.
Yeah, so I'm kind of like,like a third grader in the sense
of.
Like, I like pretty pictures,not more.
Black and white words.
And so if you can visually show.
Me how to navigate theprocess, you're going to win me so
much f. So this is where someof the products we take.
It's one thing to say, go reada book.
(10:49):
We have this product that justhit the market called 57 Hats.
The goal of this product isit's an interactive experience, leveraging
cards and a.
Game board to help you quicklyidentify how many hats you're wearing
in your business. And that'sjust giving you, as a business owner,
a powerful vernacular becauseyou may not realize the hats that
you're wearing. But until youcan really see visually.
(11:10):
Oh, this is why I'moverwhelmed, or.
This is why a member of myteam is overwhelmed. It's a really
powerful modality. Then goread this book. You are literally
being able to manage it. Andwe've been seeing people come to.
Us saying in 10 to 15 minutes.
They'Ve had massivebreakthroughs just leveraging this
one product that helped themsee massive gaps in their business
and the opportunity to get outof the day to day.
(11:32):
And so that's like the power of.
Physical is that we canaccelerate that.
Learning curve by just takingyou through.
An experience and it feelslike a new opportunity.
Oh, that's really wonderful. Ilike the idea of what you guys have
got because you're right. Whenwe talked earlier, I've never heard
anybody come up with somethinglike this, but it's really a complete
game changer because you'recreating engagement on all levels.
(11:53):
And engagement, there's justso much packed into that because
it's the simplicity of if Iknow where you are in my process,
because I have a really welldefined process, then I know how
to provide the best support toyou. So with the law firm as an example,
they have six different phasesin terms of how they navigate people
through the process. You cansee here we have it on the side of
the box, kind.
Of their journey that they goon. If I know you're at a certain
(12:16):
point in the process, then Iknow how to have a more tailored
conversation.
To you, and we just turn itinto a fun, interactive experience.
And so I want to know is if Iknow where you are along any of the
journeys we build out, I knowwhat kind of conversation to have.
If you're stuck, I know how toget you unstuck because I know exactly
where you are and what peopleusually go through at that point
in the process.
And beyond that, I see it as acomplete differentiator in business
(12:38):
because you've got the let'sstick with the law firm there, they're
shopping around different lawfirms, perhaps trying to get a feel
who's going to take care ofthem the best. That's a completely
game changing differentiatorbecause someone's going to go, wow,
these other guys gave me apamphlet, 300 pages. And here's something
that I can understand, numberone. Number two, it makes it easy
(13:00):
for me to understand theservices and how these guys are going
to help me complete gamechanger deals done.
And what's cool about what youjust described, it's leveraging it
as an acquisition strategy.And so that's a perfect example to
say let us send you this kitthat literally will set you up for
success. If it's leveraged asan acquisition play, it can be a
really powerful nurture playto start to build a relationship.
(13:22):
You know, 57 hats is anexample, is not a delivery play,
it's an acquisition play.Because how we're leveraging this
is a free plus ship, just payshipping. We'll send you out the
box set.
But the goal is that as you.
Start to uncover other gaps inyour business or if I introduce and
show you new pain points thatyou know you want to address, you
know, our goal is we have thesolutions to.
(13:42):
Ascend you on the back end to.
Other higher ticket productsand services. But we're leveraging
this as a way to stand out inthe marketplace as something different.
And again, if you help someone get.
A breakthrough, they become asuper fan.
Okay, you're right, they are asuper fan.
Like how what's next? How Altium.
This is working for me.
What's the next thing you cando to help me?
Yeah, and it's the same thinggoing with the existing customers
(14:04):
because you can use that for,as we talked earlier, for retention.
That can turn into a referralmechanism that you create a super
fan out of that customer. Thatcustomer becomes your sales force.
And that word of mouthmarketing, you can't pay for it.
But more importantly, itcollapses the whole sales cycle because
(14:25):
now that person says, oh,Johnny says I need to go talk to
Mark. I'm just going to gotalk to Mark. I'm not price shopping,
I'm not doing anything elsebecause Johnny said Mark's the dude.
Boom. And on the retention, Imean that's just scratching the surface.
The great thing about theretention aspect of this realm is
I can show you a different example.
We have a client in theinsurance space.
(14:46):
One of the things that we dois part of retention is also recognition.
Can I show you a Pathway tosuccess and want you to keep playing
the game to ascend to the nextpathway. ClickFunnels, if you're
familiar with ClickFunnels,does this brilliantly with their
2 comma Club Award.
It's a retention play becausein order to earn the award, there's
lots of.
People out there that wantthat plaque on their wall.
(15:07):
They defined a game and said, in.
Order to get this, you need togenerate a million dollars in a funnel
using ClickFunnels.
If you don't use clickfunnels,you won't qualify.
So it's a really powerfulrecognition play.
But it's also retention playin the.
Same realm for the insuranceclient. I don't know if you remember
when the United States wasreleasing a new.
Quarter for every state.
Do you remember that? I thinkthat may have been almost 20 years
(15:30):
ago, but this was the USupdated the quarter and on the back
of every quarter represented adifferent state.
And they were slowlyintroducing new states. My father
and I had a coin.
Board of the United States andas we would collect the quarters,
we would.
Push it into the coin board.
And in the spirit ofcollection, collection is a retention
(15:52):
strategy because you want.
To collect them all. We tookthe same concept with this.
Client and said as theyprogress through the different phases,
they could earn a.
Coin and their coin they can press.
Into their coin board. Wewanted them to see gaps missing to
make them say, I want tocomplete the series, which is a really
powerful retention play.
(16:13):
There's different ways toenvision this that say, I'm starting
to play this game.
What I don't want is just oneof the three pieces. It's no different
than we've done it with boxesas well. This insider on the wall
behind me, these three tiles,there's three different boxes. You
can get box one of three, butin order to get box two.
Of three and three of three,those are retention plays.
(16:33):
I want to create this gap that.
You'Re going to want to keep playing.
The game in order to collectall the pieces. And by the way, when
you make it through, you'regoing to be at.
A different place in yourbusiness, which is really powerful.
So in the spirit of superfans,this gamification and even incentive
structure is a.
Really powerful retention play.
Could you share Mark with ourlisteners a story of how you've helped
(16:56):
a company gamify theirbusiness that in turn creates huge
growth for their business?
There's a couple I can tellyou. We had a client that is on the
print on demand space. WeIntroduced a box with their challenge.
What was so powerful about itis when we introduced box, it doubled
the.
Amount of people who joinedthe challenge.
So you saw their intake doublein size and then on the back end.
(17:19):
Their back end offer alsodoubled in.
Terms of sales, which 4x thepower of the campaign. But in addition
to that, because we.
Gamified every step of theprocess for this entry product, the
amount of social.
Proof of activating theirsuperfans and their audience. It
was incredible because he hadpictures after pictures because he
incentivized people when.
They hit certain junctions toshare or to post, which created all
(17:43):
this excitement.
And so that's a powerfulexample of it. We had a client in
the finance.
Space, she has a massivevirtual event.
When we introduced box as partof her virtual event strategy, two
things happened.
Her show up rates increased by 17%.
So more people were showing up.
And then she doubled herbacking conversion.
Which just showed that theonly thing that had changed and she
(18:04):
had been executing this eventfor years. The only thing that changed
with this test was sheintroduced the box as a powerful
strategy. We had anotherclient that had a massive Launch
for a $2,000 product and shehad a coaching program, generally
about 3,000 people to 4,000people enroll in.
Every year when she makes itavailable. The one thing that we
(18:25):
did was.
To say you're welcome to get a.
Refund at any point. All weask you to do is.
Send back your box. Just likeif you were to buy something on Amazon,
if you wanted to return it, toget your refund back, you need to
return the item. And we sawher refund rates in the first 30
days drop down to less thanhalf a percent. So like when you're
talking about multi milliondollar launch, huge impact. And on
(18:49):
top of that, you get thesocial proof and the excitement and
the guidance because a lot ofwhat we want to do with these vox
experiences.
I see so many businesses dumpthe outcome on you, saying you bought
product.
Because you want this result.But it's overwhelming because they
don't have that pathway toshow me how I get from the beginning
to the end. And if I can showyou, let's.
Break it down into smallphases or small steps.
(19:09):
If you complete phase one and are.
Now on phase two, I can show.
You you've gone through atransformation because you're no
longer at the beginning,you're one step closer to the end.
But you see the pathway and Ican start to get you into momentum.
And that's exactly what we'reseeing with our students. As well.
So there's so many differentcases like that that we see even
for us testing out thisproduct hitting the market 57 hats.
(19:30):
What's been amazing about itis the.
Amount of people who want topartner with us or collaborate us
or build their own front endbusiness tools.
Just as a showcase of seeingour product.
It's been such a fun thing towatch introduced to the market and
even.
With our cold traffic ads onFacebook, a lot of people have their
thoughts.
On the paid traffic game right now.
(19:51):
Especially with meta out ofthe gate. Within our first week we
were able to take thiscampaign with our ads that we were
testing to be break even. Soit was self liquidating and now profitable
almost within a week of launching.
The product and testing the funnel.
So that's what's beenincredible of the power of introducing
something physical as adifferentiator in this game.
That's great stories actually.Overall, one of the things that you
(20:13):
said I want to kind ofreemphasize is it helps somebody
manage the process andunderstand where they're at in the
process. When I was sellingsoftware back in the day, the biggest
thing that I had done thatdifferentiated me and created my
success was I never got stuckinto the technology. I really talked
about the business aspects andhow technology is going to impact
(20:36):
the business. And then a lotof times I worked what I would call
the sale backwards because ofthe fact that people say, well we
bought it, we expect to beproductive next week. It doesn't
work that way. And so we wouldlay out all the steps that were necessary
for them to reachprofitability. But I had to do it
on a marker board and theywould write it all down because we
(20:59):
would collectively do it. Sowhat you've done is taken that process
and you've gamified it and nowthey've got something that they can
measure where they're at. Thereason I'm bringing it up because
it can become a good salestool for people selling technology
or whatever type of products.It's going to take some time to get
it implemented and get it setup into an organization because they
(21:20):
get to run their old way asthey're implementing the new way.
And this gives them a roadmap.
I mean, to me it's everything just.
Because it allows me to reallysee where we are in the process.
And so that is for me, whenclients come and spend a day with
us in Austin, like that is exactly.
What I need to clearly break down.
Because without it, I can'tbuild a process. And so that's why
(21:40):
seeing that 10,000 foot viewwhen you build that journey map out
and it's very high level interms of what I would show a client.
That's sales collateral,that's material that I can put as
part of my pitch because I canshow you. Let me show you the 10,000
foot.
View of how we're going to getyou that result.
A lot of people in the salesprocess don't do a good job of that.
And so that's kind of whereit's really cool that when we go
through this experience, howmuch sales collateral gets created
(22:04):
for our clients just becausewe're forcing them to get clear on
how.
They'Re selling their productor getting that.
Result for their customer.
That's why I was sosuccessful. As I talked about the
strategy and theimplementation of the technology.
And I would clearly say, hey,there's three other products in the
market space that do exactlywhat we do, otherwise they wouldn't
be in business. But here's howwe're going to help you achieve your
(22:28):
business goals. And it changedthe whole conversation.
Wow.
I can totally see for me like,I love that. It's exactly what we
love to hear.
Now you're helping businessesdo that in a very clever way. Wish
that would have existed like20 years ago.
It's a lot easier now. I willtell you that I was going to say
20 years ago. Such a differentgame and where we are. Never would
have imagined we'd be havingthe conversations around AI that
(22:50):
we are these days.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe process that you go through with
the companies. Let's just pickhome improvement. I do kitchen remodeling.
So what we do is there's onething that we look at in the forefront.
We'll take you through ourvirtual strategy session. This is
because we need to understandthe scope of the business. And so
one of the things we talkabout with clients is that we call
it the Tele2 journeys.
(23:10):
There's a journey in terms ofhow people can navigate through your
products and services. Andthen for every product or service.
I can click in and there couldbe a journey of how I should navigate
it. So if I have an entirecomprehensive program that has courses
and coaching and done for youand whatnot, I probably have a clear
value ladder of how I want tosend people or send people throughout
(23:32):
or how they should be engagingwith me.
But for the course, I could build.
A process for the coachingprogram, I could build a process
for the done for you, I canbuild a process around as well. And
so that's why knowing how Inavigate through your business is
one journey and then if Iclick into the product or service
I bought, that's a separatejourney. So knowing what the big
vision is of the business iswhere we really anchor people. So
(23:52):
in this, like you may beselling product A, B or C, but.
There'S a whole universe ofhow you can.
When we build any experienceout, it.
Needs to be about focused onthe product or service they bought.
But we need to seed your universe.
That is really importantbecause too many businesses sell
the thing, but they forget totell their customer or clients all.
The other ways that they canserve them.
(24:14):
And then if they don't know, they're.
Going to look for thosesolutions outward.
So this is kind of where anyexperience I want to delve deep on.
The process or the product or service.
But I also want to tell thestory of your universe. So we like
to anchor on what's the bigvision, what's the goals of the business,
what are some of the obstaclesthat you're facing. We like to see
your team structure and all ofthe pieces. We like to get a sense
(24:34):
of your brand identity andyour product suite. We'd love to
get a sense of.
How you currently acquirecustomers and do.
You have social proof? Sothat's kind of where we start because
what ends up happening issometimes people have come to us
saying I'd love to build anexperience here. And then we delve
into their business and we canquickly say that's an opportunity.
But let me show you some otheropportunities to consider just based
(24:55):
on the nature of knowing whatthe pieces of the business are. And
then from there what typicallyhappens is once we know the product
or service we want to starton, people typically love to fly
to Austin just because you cansee so many modalities of how we
built out these experiences.
Across so many different industries.
And then we literally willbreak down your business and come
up with the blueprint of whatwe're going to build out.
(25:16):
So that's a lot of where weanchor from there.
Once we land on the blueprint,we like to show clients, here's the
story, here's the experience,here's a very high level journey
that we identified and thenwe'd like to give you your numbers
if you were to move forwardwith this campaign based on the inputs
that you gave us. Here's aforecasting model of potential revenue
generated as well as potentialprofitability, taking into consideration
(25:38):
the hard cost of goods, thebuild out, all the factors, shipping.
So you know your numbersbefore you get into our process.
And so that's really importantfor us to see the potential upside,
to make.
Sure that the campaign makes sense.
And then from there, when youlook at the numbers, we love to bring
it to life. So we'll bring tolife the campaign and get it out
to market, and we can managethat process end to end, whether
you have us do the warehousingand fulfillment or whether you have.
(26:00):
Your own solution as well.
So that's where we play. Andso just given the nature of.
Any business, it just allowsus to.
Go deeper and be a lot moreintimate. And I think that that's
really key here, because whenwe build out these experiences, it's
an enabler to your businessstrategy. So if we don't go deeper
into what it is that you'redoing, we don't want to do is engineer
an experience with these boxesthat doesn't lead people to the natural
(26:24):
next step as.
To what your business strategy is.
I hope that made sense.
Yeah, no, it totally does. Andwhere I was just thinking is that,
for example, the homeimprovement industry is probably
notorious for doing a greatjob and then disappearing, and you
never hear from them again.And so I see this as a mechanism,
one to help acquire, but as wetalked earlier, is another mechanism
(26:48):
to turn that customer into asuper fan and giving that company
an ability to maintain arelationship with the customer.
It can be.
And so you're right in the sense.
Of I can build a whole processor experience around the first engagement
we do with your home.
And I can also start to introduce.
Other capabilities, whateverthe types of things.
(27:08):
That you should consider,could consider.
And then from a retentionstandpoint, how do I stay top of
mind? Because a lot ofretention in that game is being top
of mind. And whether it is thenext part of the equation, whether
it's a flat mailer orpostcard. We know, we talked about
postcards prior to this call.There's so many different ways that
you could do to be top ofmind. Because I think I read a statistic
that was 80% of people buyfrom the person, the first person
(27:33):
that sells to them. And soespecially if this is someone that
has worked with you and had agood experience, the question is,
how do you continue to be topof mind? So they know that you are
diversified in some regards ofother things that you can do to help
them.
Because out of sight, out ofmind. Years ago, when I got divorced,
I had to sell the house and Ihad two realtors and they helped
(27:54):
get the sale. It worked outbecause my ex wife didn't like one
of the realtors, but she likedthe other one. So we get stuff done,
but after it's all done andover with and moved into an apartment
for a little while. And thenonce everything got wrapped up, I
was going to look for a house.I never heard from those people again.
I went with somethingcompletely different of a realtor
(28:14):
because I couldn't even findtheir business cards. Never heard
from them, nothing.
It's crazy too because you'reright, it's money on the table that
they're leaving just simply bynot re engaging their clientele base,
you've created a cool tool.
That can act as that.
And I mean I can't even tellyou that for even us when we've.
Introduced things like when weintroduced awards.
And recognition and if youwanted to create your own custom
(28:35):
plaques or things like that,we didn't tell clients initially
that that was something thatwe can support with. We can support
with really anything that.
Goes to print live event signage.
And so it's amazing how justmaking them aware of other ways that
you can serve them. And againit can be introduced when.
You introduce the capability.
I mean I have this capabilityto help with awards or to help with.
(28:56):
Live event signage or tradeshow booths.
But if I do and I just letthem know part of it's just the education,
they may go, I did not evenknow you did that. And that's a powerful
means to say for me it mayresult in lifetime.
Value, increasing lifetimevalue of the customers for them.
They know that they know likeand trust me because they've worked
with me before and they don'thave to worry about is this person
(29:17):
going to do.
What they say or deliver the quality.
That they're going to saybecause they already have that expectation
and a good experience of whatit's like working with me.
So that is like the power of.
That to leverage that as a reengagement.
For sure, it's a hugemechanism because same thing I would
do when I had resellers ordistributors around the world. I
wouldn't just recognize theagency, we would make plaques and
(29:38):
give it to the agency. But Ialso would recognize the sales rep
that was selling the most ofmy product. Because at the end of
the day it wasn't the owner ofthe agency selling, it was their
sales guy or gal. And so toget mind share when you got 60 distributors
in different parts of theworld, how do you differentiate yourself?
And that was one of the waysis I would recognize the individual
(30:00):
that sold the most of myproduct as well as the agency.
Boom. You're right. And, like,there is just so much there, but
the power of recognition withthe awards. Again, people don't throw
out awards. You put their nameon something, they.
Keep it for life.
And so that's one of the mostpowerful modalities.
And so now you're taking up real.
Estate in their householdbecause you gave them something that
(30:22):
recognized them.
One of my quotes in my book ispeople crawl through broken glass
for appreciation. Recognition.
Yeah, 100%.
I heard a quote from Brooke Castillo.
Who'S a life coach and trains,certifies people on being a life
coach. But she said, a lot ofpeople, the last time they were recognized
was their high schoolgraduation. And I take it a step
(30:43):
further to say the last timethat they were recognized or seen,
maybe their high schoolgraduation, but also maybe, I would
say your wedding day.
But for a lot of people, theydon't feel seen.
And it's a really powerfulthing when you can come forward and
recognize them forachievement. So just defining that
strategy for your.
Clients so they can then take it.
Down to their people, It's apowerful way to build super fans.
(31:03):
It's totally. It's what Iwrote in the book. And you've got
a nice platform that allows todo that. So do you have any major
takeaways that you can sharewith the audience that they can put
into play?
Yeah, I have two that I can share.
The first one is anytime wedefine customer journey. So if you're
thinking about how am.
I guiding my customers to an outcome.
You always start with the endin mind.
(31:24):
So what does success look like?
A lot of business owners don't do.
A good job defining success.And what I mean by that, I like to
use the analogy of if.
You'Re running a race oryou're running a marathon.
If I were to break a marathondown into three phases, I could say.
Phase one is preparing for themarathon, phase two is running the
marathon, and.
Phase three is post marathon.Like, when you finish the marathon.
(31:48):
What's powerful about this issuccess in this, to me is, have you
earned the medal? Because Iknow that if you've earned.
The medal at the end of the.
Race, you have successfullystarted and completed the race. And
so it is a physical emblem, wecall them jewels, that define success.
It's the same thing when yougraduate from college or university.
(32:10):
If you have the diploma, thenI know without a shadow of a doubt
you've completed the journey.Through college and.
And receive the diploma. Iknow if you're a boy scout.
And you have your Eagle Scoutand you have the Eagle Scout badge,
that you've successfully gonefrom Cub Scout to achieving it.
I know that if you're doingkarate and you start with a white
belt and your goal is to getthe black belt and you earn the black.
(32:31):
Belt, without a shadow of a doubt.
You'Ve been successful on that journey.
We, as business owners do notdo a good job of defining what success
is.
The black belt, thediplomatic, the super bowl ring,
the thing that is undeniable.
I achieved this outcomebecause we haven't, as business owners,
I see this again and again.
Done a good job defining whatis success.
And so when you define what success.
(32:53):
Is for your customer, andthere's so.
Many ways to do it, it couldbe black and white.
If you're in the weight loss space.
It'S hard to say, lose £20,because losing £20 for Person A versus
Person B can be very differentthings. But I can set up parameters
of success, and that justallow people to know, have I been
successful in this process?
Yes or no? Not.
(33:15):
I think I've been successful.I think I hit it. And so this is
the thing that I would justsay, any journey, we want to define
success.
We want to define outcome onthe end.
Because if I have that as aback end, I can go back to the beginning
and say, okay, how are weonboarding people and preparing them
for this journey?
And have I set up the mechanics.
The phases to take them fromthe beginning to the end to get that
(33:37):
outcome? And so this is kindof where it actually takes a lot
of pressure off the businessowner if you have.
A clear definition for whatsuccess looks like. For me, it's
a box.
Did we launch a box at the.
End of the process?
If we didn't, then we weren'tsuccessful because that's what we
do.
Like, you're hiring us tobuild this whole physical experience.
So if I know this is my jewelwithout a shadow of a doubt, that
we successfully completed thisprocess without that, we have. It's
(34:00):
very black and white. Sothat's the first thing I would tell
people, just in terms of howto start to think about it. And the
second thing is we love thisidea of leading with intentionality,
especially with the things we save.
And so just to give you nuggets.
About how we think about thebox experiences, I know that things
like a book, when you read abook, you put it on a bookshelf.
You typically don't throw outa book.
(34:22):
So you'll see a lot of the.
Experiences that we build area little bit bigger than a book.
We'll brand the spine becauseI want.
You to put it on yourbookshelf. Things with replayability.
A board game. You don't playMonopoly and then throw it out.
You don't play golf with your golf.
Clubs and then throw your golf clubs.
Out of that basketball.
Same thing with DVD CDs.
You don't watch them maybeonce and just throw out the dvd.
(34:43):
My dad still has his eighttrack tapes and his records. Even
though he has no means to playhis eight track tapes. And records
are coming back. You have aneight track player.
I don't have an eight trackplayer, but I do have records. I
do have a whole closet overhere full of books and training materials
and everything else.
It's so funny to think of the.
Strategy of why do I savethis? Because there's that element
(35:04):
of replayability. So this iskind of where like.
The reusability, thereplayability, how we think.
About that and experiencepeople save. In the last two categories,
Recognition that we've alreadyhit on. If you put something like,
I'm never going to throw outmy graduation diploma. It's a piece
of paper. It is a piece ofpaper that costs the university two
or $3. But we save it for ourlives, like the rest of our lives.
(35:26):
And the last one is collection.
It defines who we are.
Defines who we are andsomething we're proud of.
It's something that'srecognizing us for an achievement.
Yeah, I got plaques. I gotplaques. I totally agree. Because
I got plaques of being numberone sales guy up on the wall right
there. They got ribbons. WhenI was in a drafting of all awards
I got for drafting, doingdesign work.
There are empty nesters.
(35:47):
People whose kids havegraduated and moved out of the house
that they still have in theirchildren's room. The soccer trophy
they got when they.
Were three or four years old.
Like, it's amazing how justthe power of recognition.
And the last category is collection.
Things that you collect.Beanie babies, pogs, baseball cards,
Lego sets, stamps, coins.
(36:07):
The inherent nature of collection.
If I'm collecting, and this isa perfect example, if I was collecting
all the quarters and this USmap, I'm never going to throw it
out because it's the desire tocomplete the collection.
And when the collection'scomplete, you typically.
Don'T turn around and throw it out.
There's value and meaning into this.
And so thinking about thatintentionality, if you are going
to play the physical game.This is kind of where I'm very much
(36:29):
against swag.
We joke and say swag meansstuff without a goal.
Stop sending swag because whenyou put your branded stuff out there,
that's about.
You in that mug you saw ondiscount mugs or 4imprint.
Like the problem with that isif I have no connection and we're
talking about superfans, if Idon't have that.
Connection and community andI'm not a.
Super fan, it's stuff andstuff gets.
(36:51):
Left in the hotel or thrown out.
Or given the goodwill.
And so that intentionality isa really, really powerful means to
really stand out differently.
I think those are my nuggets.
I hope these were good.
Those are very well said,excellent nuggets because they're
great takeaways for ourlisteners because you're creating
a feeling and people willforget what you said, people will
(37:12):
forget what you've done, butnobody will forget how you made them
feel. You know, your custombox agency creates a feeling.
I think it's so important thisday and age and especially as AI
just becomes more. Thisdigital distrust you're seeing, it's
so powerful. I mean, we arehuman, we like touch, we need touch.
It's just we're losing thatelement when we go so extreme digital.
(37:33):
And you're right in terms ofthat emotional connection and making
it feel more personal andmaking it feel more for.
Me and helping me be moresuccessful. I think that's the power
of.
And that's how youdifferentiate yourself in business.
So, Mark, it's been a greatconversation, a lot of excellent
information for our listeners.Hope that they've taken notes and
how can people find you?
(37:54):
Yeah, thank you for asking.
Easiest thing to do is you cango to customboxagency.com, check
out our website and then youcan always look me up on LinkedIn
or Facebook. Feel free tomessage me. We love connecting with
people. We love hearing whatyou do. If you go to our website,
you can schedule a freeconsultation with a member of our
team and we can help you thinkabout how can you deploy this strategy
in your business.
You have something as agiveaway too for our listeners?
(38:15):
Yeah. We built a productcalled Activate. Activate Deck is
a tool to help business ownerseasily lay out their customer acquisition
strategy. So we wereleveraging the power of cards as
a modality to help youvisualize how people discover you
to buying your products andservices. And if you go to activateseries.com
(38:36):
what's really powerful aboutthat is you can opt in for free.
We have about 20 differentblueprints of how different seven
and eight figure businessowners are acquiring customers and
you can.
See their exact blueprint forhow we do it.
So we'd love to give that as a gift.
That's a wonderful gift. We'llmake sure that's in the show notes
for our listeners. And Mark,thank you again so much for your
time and being a guest on abusiness Superfans podcast.
(38:58):
Freddie D. Thank you forhaving me.
This has been a lot of fun.
Hey Superfans superstarFreddie D. Here. Before we wrap,
here's your three A playbookpower move to attract ideal clients,
turn them into advocates, andaccelerate your business success.
So here's a top insight fromtoday's episode. If you want to accelerate
business growth, stop dumpinginformation and start engineering
(39:20):
experiences that show peopleexactly how to win. So here's your
business growth action step.Design a physical or digital success
journey map that breaks yourcustomer's path into clear, gamified
milestones that they canvisibly complete. Then reward progress
to keep momentum alive. Iftoday's conversation sparked an idea
(39:44):
for you, or you know of afellow business leader who could
benefit, share it with them.Support the show with the donation
and grab the full breakdown inthe show notes. Let's accelerate
together and start creatingbusiness super fans who champion
your brand.
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