July 9, 2024 • 63 mins
Join Kritter and Jessica once more as they begin the last leg of their journey through the Lord of the Rings Trilogy! This episode they dive into the Return of the King, Book 5, chapters 1 & 2. They finally see Minas Tirith, we hear a lot of frustration from Eowyn, and Aragorn makes a decision that leads into a very unsavory neighborhood!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kritter (00:07):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Return of the King by JRR
Tolkien, with me as the residentLord of the.
Rings veteran and me as theLord of the Rings first-timer In
(00:29):
this our first episode ofSeason 4, we're going to discuss
Book 5, Chapters 1 and 2.
Season 4.
Jessica (00:41):
Before we dive in.
Kritter (00:42):
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you?
Jessica (00:43):
feeling.
I feel pretty good.
You know a little certainsomething happened this last
weekend, um known as my wedding.
So yeah, it's official, there'sa, there's a Mr Jessica out
there and um, now we're home andand stuff can go back to
somewhat normal, so that's alsoa good thing.
Kritter (01:05):
How about you?
I am doing well, doing well.
I'm so close to being in mythird trimester, so your girl is
getting more and moreuncomfortable as the days go on,
but it's more and more excitingtoo.
So times are.
Times are changing.
For all of us, it seemsAbsolutely Yay, yeah, cool.
(01:26):
So times are changing.
For all of us, it seems Yay,yeah, cool, okay.
So let's get into this book,shall we, let's do it All right.
so book five, chapter one, minasTirith.
It's wild to me the word Returnof the King, I don't know right
.
That's the last book of thetrilogy.
Jessica (01:43):
I feel like it's gone really quick yeah, not in a
negative way, king, I don't know, like right, like that's the
last book, the trilogy.
I feel like it's gone reallyquick.
Yeah, not in a negative way.
I don't think we've skippedanything.
I feel like we took our time,we've savored the good stuff, um
, but we got here with reallygood time.
Kritter (01:56):
Yeah, I think so.
I think we did it's.
Uh, it's gonna be weird oncewe're done too, because, like,
this reread has been on my listfor a very long time and, uh,
having read them again in suchdetail, I think, is it's been a
whole new experience for me,because you and I are both like
let it wash over me kind ofpeople right like we're not
(02:16):
totally died like delving intothe minutiae, but this time we
kind of are.
So it's been different.
Good stuff, it is okay.
So, uh, we start this book backwith pippin and gandalf blazing
a trail to minas tirth.
At one point pippin exclaimsseeing great fires in the
(02:37):
distance and asking if there aredragons.
Very good question.
But Gandalf explains that thefires are the beacons of Gondor,
already lit, calling for aid.
First of all, you love to seedragons get mentioned, love to
hear it.
And second, did the beaconsalready being lit surprise you?
Jessica (02:59):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I was like wait, what'shappening?
Okay, we're going out of order.
Okay, fine, bring it and thenit proceeds to tell us in detail
where all the beacons are.
So there are a lot of landmarksthat I don't necessarily know
right, but you know the litanyis is listed out for um all the
spots where they have beacons.
Kritter (03:20):
It yeah, it is.
It is because it's uh, I care,I don't think it's only in the
extended edition, but in themovies pippin lights, the first
beacon, right like gandalfenlists him to do you forget?
Okay, well, never mind it's.
It's different than in themovies, I believe you okay.
Um, also just a little note.
We've got a nazgul sighting,like yeah, right away after the
(03:44):
first night's ride.
Jessica (03:45):
Um I have a feeling that we're gonna count those.
Right, we're, we're gonna countthose.
That's the plan.
Kritter (03:51):
First, the first one sighting this yeah, um, I have a
feeling this book might, thatmight, get a little overwhelming
.
Oh, fair, but fair we will.
We can do it for now.
I think doing it for now is aworthy exercise.
So, after this big, long grind,gandalf is greeted at the outer
wall of Minas Tirith.
(04:11):
The guards are suspicious ofPippin, of all people who, by
the way, if you didn't catch ourrap party, won MVP for the Two
Towers.
So go, pippin, we'll see how hedoes this time for the two
towers.
So go pippin, we'll see how hedoes this time.
Um, anyways, they weren'tunderstanding what he might be
you know they're like what?
is this?
A dwarf?
(04:31):
I'm not sure.
Gandalf vouches for him, though, calling him a valiant man,
which rouses pippin from hissleep because he was asleep in
protest.
Neither a man nor valiant safe.
Perhaps by necessity he says so.
I missed our Two Towers MVP andhis quick wit.
Are you happy to be back withhim here?
Jessica (04:54):
Absolutely, and I think that the way that he just
demurs that one that he's justso sassy about you know a man, I
am not, nor valiant, you knowhe's, so he's, he's humble, but
also has a pert mouth, so I likethat.
Kritter (05:16):
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was.
It was funny how he stood upfor himself but also was, like
you know, valiant.
Also, I don't know if you're,if you're only listening and not
watching this.
I just now noticed this um, weare.
We are recording this on theeve of the fourth of july it's a
slightly off schedule recordingpress, just because of the
holiday, and we're wearing redand blue and white oh yeah, he
(05:41):
wrote the white on the headset.
Jessica's wearing red, I'mwearing blue.
Uh, so completely unintentionalpatriotism yeah, but it happens
.
Jessica (05:50):
But go us go, yeah, way to nail it, yeah.
Kritter (05:55):
Hashtag america.
Um okay, so it seems thatgandalf has a similar reputation
in Gondor as he has elsewhere,always with tidings of grief and
danger.
Are we surprised?
Jessica (06:11):
No, but I love the fact that in this chapter they
actually talk about it, and Iknow that it's not there, but
I've kind of imposed on that.
But you come with tidings ofgrief and danger, as is your
want, they say.
And Gandalf's response I kindof infused with a little bit of
exasperation, because I comeseldom but when my help is
(06:36):
needed because it's more, it'sone of, I think, three different
times in this chapter.
Somebody who's like oh you know, you're such a dire messenger
and you never come except forwhen you know stuff goes
sideways or whatever.
And at one point in the chapterI was just like I'm getting the
feeling that this gets old forGandalf.
(06:56):
You know I feel a little bit badfor him.
Nobody's ever happy to see himbecause he's basically always a
harbinger of doom or, at thevery least, bringing bad news.
Basically, at a certain pointhe's basically always a
harbinger of doom or, at thevery least, bringing bad news.
Kritter (07:07):
Basically, at a certain point he's going to be like
fine, you want me to stay home,I can just stay home, I can just
stay home, you can handle thison your own.
You don't need to know thatthere's a giant army coming or
that Isengard fell, or any ofthis.
He would be totally justifiedin replying to people.
People like that oh oh, youdon't want me here, that's fine,
(07:27):
I can leave.
um, he would never, but he wouldbe justified but it's clear he
hears it a lot he, yeah, likeevery single time he goes to a
new place as far as this trilogyand actually including the
hobbit is concerned.
Um so I thought that was funny.
So pippin is struck by thegrandness and beauty of minas
(07:52):
tirith, but notes that it doesseem to have fallen into decay.
Does anything stand out to youfrom the description of the city
?
Jessica (08:02):
um, so the things that stood out to me.
We always know it's always kindof funny and and uh, a roll of
the dice, what's going to standout to me while I'm going
through?
So the thing that stood out tome is the way the seven tiers
were described and how the gatesare offset right, so the gates
don't line up, they're all atdifferent points, which seems
(08:23):
strategic.
And then I also took note ofPippin noticing that on every
major street heavilyparaphrasing that there's at
least one empty great house onevery street.
Speaking to, it's not as fullas it should be.
There's not as many people hereas there should be.
Kritter (08:42):
Yeah, I agree that it is a crapshoot as to what will
stand out to me also, and noneof the architecture.
I mean, you know, I read thearchitecture and.
I understand that it was there,but for me it was the outfits
of the guards of the Citadelthat sounded pretty awesome.
They had Mithril helmets Likehello that's wild.
Jessica (09:03):
So I was like isn they had Mithril helmets Like hello,
that's wild, yeah.
So I was like isn't that stufflike super expensive and we're
just putting it on as likeadornment, because it was like
the wings or something, it wasdecorative?
Yeah, something, but like itwas only for, like, the guards
of the Citadel too, I think,which is, like you know, the big
bad.
Like the white, the white, notthe white.
(09:27):
So were these those, the sameguards that are dressed in the
air of a lendiel bannermanclothes?
Kritter (09:29):
the white tree blossoming beneath a silver
crown on their surcoats yeah,that outfit like if I was a
guard, if I had to wear, justlike a right, not regular,
because these guys aren'tregular.
But yeah, this is basically theequivalent of, like in Game of
Thrones, the Kingsguard, or likethe fancy, fancy, fanciest of
fancy, guard outfits.
Jessica (09:51):
And so that stuck out to me, because this is all so to
your point, to use your analogy, game of Thrones, right, like
they're flashing the coat ofarms for heirs of Elendil, but
nobody in the city is the heirof Elendil.
You know there's only one andwe know where he is, and it's
not Minas Tirith.
So I thought that it was kindof neat that they are wearing a
(10:16):
coat of arms essentially forsomeone who is not represented
in the city currently.
They're waiting.
Kritter (10:23):
And they walk past the tree that apparently is dead,
looks dead.
It's the tree that pippin sawin the whenever he grabbed the
stone palantir um, yeah, thepalantir, so it's all coming
together, basically but Idefinitely took note of that.
Jessica (10:38):
The, the seven stones get mentioned and I was like, oh
so the palantir are linkedsomehow to minister and that
would make sense because onepalantir in particular we know
that aragorn said was hisbirthright right.
Kritter (10:57):
So, and we know, like the history of them, the men
essentially had them in theirstrongholds way back in the day.
So, uh, I guess, the men ofnumenor, the men, it's the
history, lots and lots ofhistory in the series so uh,
yeah, it's.
It's fun to go to a place that'sso clearly invested with all of
(11:19):
that lore, even if the king orthe heir is nowhere to be found
as far as Denethor and the restof them know so far.
Speaking of, gandalf warnsPippin not to mention Frodo or
Aragorn, and when Pippin isshocked at Gandalf's comment
that Aragorn would claim thekingship when he came, we get
(11:42):
another sick burn from Gandalf.
If you have walked all thesedays with closed ears and mind
asleep, wake up now.
Do you believe Pippin reallydidn't know about Aragorn?
Like was he just?
Is that?
Is that real life?
I was just so surprised.
Jessica (11:58):
I mean, pippin is the one who didn't even know where
they were on a map, right LikeMary did.
So as much as I love our guyPippin, I just don't think he's
a pay attentioner which I'm notjudging because I'm not a pay
attentioner either but I dothink it's pretty crazy that we
(12:21):
find out that Strider is Aragornand Aragorn is the heir, and
Pippin still doesn't know that.
That is pretty wild.
I do think it's fun.
Gandalf also said to him thisis no time for hobbit pertness,
you know, like just telling himup front.
You know, keep your sass incheck.
In terms of architecture,though, there was one other
throwback Pippin mentions.
Pippin kind of draws acorollary between the way that
(12:46):
the stonework is done in MinasTirith and reminded of the hewn
rocks of Argonath, and all fellon him, and so again I felt like
that kind of tied back to thoseNumenorean roots the men.
So that I kind of liked that,because it was a real subtle way
for the read to remind me like,oh, these are those roots,
(13:07):
these men are in factdescendants of those people.
It would make sense that theywould have um some architectural
likenesses For sure.
Kritter (13:17):
Yeah, it's all, it's the lore it's in there.
It's all interwoven, which isreally cool.
It kind of reminds me of uh, totalk about another property
like the white tower, you know,because like all in tears, it's
white washed or should be justit sounds really like a cool,
neat place and, of course, likewe've seen it in the movie and
it is really impressive andmajestic.
(13:39):
So it was easy to picturebasically.
So they get to Denethor,gandalf greets him and Denethor
already has tidings of Boromir'sdeath.
He's in possession of thecloven horn of Boromir and he's
been told that Pippin witnessedit already and I think that was
(14:00):
a conversation they had like outat the gates or something like
literally.
So he's hearing things veryquickly.
Um, we also get confirmationthat it's only been 13 days
since foramir died.
Yep, but with everything that'shappened, it it truly feels
like much, much longer.
Even, of course, the read waslike very pleasurable, but it
(14:21):
just feels like so much hashappened.
Yeah, that blow your mind asmuch as it does.
Yeah, I highlighted it, I madea.
The read was like verypleasurable, but it just feels
like so much has happened, yeah.
Jessica (14:27):
Does that blow your mind as much as it does?
Yeah, I highlighted it.
Kritter (14:28):
I made a note I was like so they rode for like two
more days.
Jessica (14:31):
So we're saying that the contents of what happened in
the two towers took place overthe course of essentially 10,
maybe 11 days.
Yeah, that's insane.
Kritter (14:44):
Insane Like Isengard got taken down y'all like in 10
days.
You know from, yeah, fromconception to birth?
Jessica (14:56):
I don't know it literally just yeah, it was
really.
It was kind of crazy to hearthat and be like, oh, that that
was a week and a half ago.
All of that happened in a weekand a half, essentially.
Kritter (15:10):
Mary Pippin and Treebeard became best friends in
very short periods.
Jessica (15:12):
And overthrew Isengard.
You know no big.
Kritter (15:15):
Yeah, just like casual friend stuff, you know.
It's like team building, yeah,but like you know, it takes team
building to a whole t buildingsome destruction.
Yeah, with a little destruction, just a little.
It's not like an exerciseanymore, it's real life, um
anyway.
So den thor questions pippinabout boromir's death, noting
(15:37):
wisely oh, and pippin noteswisely that the mightiest man
may be slain by one arrow, andBoromir was pierced by many.
He then offers his service toDenethor as payment of a debt he
feels he has.
Would you have done the same?
Jessica (15:53):
No, because Denethor already rubs me the wrong way.
I know there's movie bias.
I understand there's movie bias.
We went into this and just theimmediately I was like this man
is working him hard and Pippin,I feel like, starts off on the
(16:16):
defensive and maybe it's alittle bit of defensiveness on
Pippin's behalf as well.
But like no, you, just you,don't come at my boy like that.
Ultimately, throughout thisscene, pippin feels like a bit
of a tug of war rope betweenthese two men, and I didn't like
it at all.
And so Denethor is already a no.
Kritter (16:37):
Thank you for maybe wouldn't have just immediately
been like.
My sword is your sword.
Jessica (16:43):
No, and I don't think that it's right that Pippin
feels he owes him anything.
Yes, boromir was brave and yes,he wanted to save you, but it's
not like you sat there and atehoney cakes while he got
murdered.
You were taken into custody,you were then captured and
hauled away and faced your owntrials and tribulations.
(17:04):
It's not as though youabandoned him to die on your
behalf, anyways.
So I had some thoughts andfeelings about this when I read
this, but it's very sweet andendearing and just shows you
know the heart of a hobbit Forsure.
Kritter (17:20):
I wanted to note in this little sequence, whenever
he does offer himself and hisservice to Xanathor a little
literary umami.
First in this season, a palesmile like a gleam of cold sun
on a winter's evening passedover the old man's face Like a
(17:42):
pale smile and cold right,because it's like cold sun and
winter.
It's just kind of like I don'tlove that.
It's.
It's a beautiful description,but what I'm getting is
something that's kind ofchilling.
Uh, tillian, yeah, and I'mworried that it is like movie
(18:02):
bias, but I feel like they're.
Tolkien was sending us somesymbols here with the language
that he used.
We've already got this manbeing very cold and calculating,
so you mentioned this already.
But Gandalf and Denethor thenproceed to basically have a
staring contest and Pippin seesthat they are rather similar.
(18:25):
Both have wizard vibes andthough Denethor looked more
kingly, beautiful, powerful andolder, pippin could sense that
Gandalf in fact had the greaterpower, deeper wisdom and veiled
majesty and was much, much older.
When Gandalf and Pippin tooktheir leave from Denethor,
(18:46):
gandalf and Denethor again sharetense words, denethor reminding
Gandalf that he won't be usedand that his primary directive
is the good of Gondor, andGandalf one-upping him, noting
that all worthy things are inhis care, for he is also a
steward.
How did this first meetingslash confrontation hit for you
(19:09):
between these two great men, Imean?
Jessica (19:11):
sparks and oil it was, and so I can definitely
understand the concept of beinga leader of people and having to
work against other strongpersonalities like Gandalf or
whatever.
But this seemed very conflictridden from the get-go and I
(19:35):
don't really feel like all ofthat came from Gandalf.
I feel like a lot of that camefrom Denethor, and I also got
from the reading that it seemslike Denethor is and Faramir
like him, but not so much.
Boromir seems to have a verystrong charisma right and can
(19:57):
read between the lines and has avery high intellect and is
getting more information than,you know, a regular man might,
and so I thought that that wasan interesting note, that that
some of their background waskind of giving him advantage and
lets him read between the linesmore and obviously his state
(20:21):
craft you know he's been thesteward for however long.
I'm sure he's picked up sometricks.
I I understand not wanting toget worked by somebody else, but
at the same time I felt that hewas truly, truly um being
obstructive just because hecould yeah, like questioning
(20:45):
pippin when gandalf is rightthere.
Yes, it felt very much like apower play and I don't have much
patience for that sort ofbehavior in fiction or in real
life.
I would be like, okay, I'm allset with you, right.
Have fun burning down thecastle.
Kritter (21:02):
I don't, if you want to talk, let's talk, but, like,
don't leave me sitting herewhile you're questioning a
hobbit about how your son died.
Jessica (21:09):
Just because you want to, you know know, have a
measuring contest.
I don't know like.
It's just not a good lookthat's how it felt.
Kritter (21:17):
I totally agree, yeah, um.
So when they're alone again,gandalf's mood completely shifts
.
He seems tickled by pippin'schoice to enter denethor's
service.
We also learn, as you mentioned, that Denethor has a bit of I
guess we could call it magic inhim.
Him and Faramir both stronglycarry the blood of Westerness
(21:41):
and he's got, quote long sight,which they describe as a bit of
a mind reader, even for thosethat are far off.
So did this like bit of magic?
Surprise you and would you wantlong sight?
Jessica (21:58):
Yes, it surprised me.
Yes, I would like it.
I think that it's insight intothe character that I would have
liked to have known before.
I think that it would probablychange my perception of him.
Yeah, because I really justthought he was a grumbly old man
.
So not that he isn't a grumblyold man, that didn't change but
(22:21):
it it's advantage, right Likethere's, he's got tools in his
tool belt that not everybodyelse has available to him.
And it does help him, apparently, understand things in a way
that other people you know,allows him insight that other
people don't have.
Kritter (22:37):
Yeah, he's got.
Like you know, whenever yousend somebody a meme and you saw
it, like a week ago on TikTok Ialways try to resist the urge
and I feel like I really dosucceed at not being like oh
yeah, I saw this already, youknow, and I feel like I really
do succeed at not being like ohyeah, I saw this already.
You know what I mean.
I laugh Right.
(22:58):
I feel like Denethor's theopposite.
Jessica (23:00):
Yes, he's like oh yeah, I saw this already.
Kritter (23:03):
Like great Okay.
Jessica (23:05):
Steamed it.
Kritter (23:06):
Already steamed it.
Yeah, why are we like what goodam?
I to you, then yeah, it's justkind of like surely there is
stuff that I know that you don'tknow, so why don't you just
like stop being such a meanieabout it?
Jessica (23:22):
I think his bad attitude and the long sight are
completely unrelated.
Kritter (23:27):
I think so too.
Jessica (23:28):
I think that he's just kind of an ornery old dude and
he has this benefit of this longsight which I would think to
your point.
I would think it would imbueyou with a certain amount of
patience, like other peopledon't have all the information
that I have to work with.
No, he chose to go another way,just to be a bigger jerk about
(23:50):
it, Basically like on his on,not his throne on his steward's
chair, just kind of like you'rewasting my time.
Kritter (23:57):
Okay, thanks, which is just not a good look.
No, my favorite.
I too would like long side.
Jessica (24:04):
You know, I don't think I'd have any problem being
psychic, I think it would benice well, and I like knowing
things same knowing how thingswork, yeah yeah, well, and and
sometimes, although I don'tthink of myself really as a
gossip, but every once in awhile I'll just be like oh, I
(24:24):
just like to know.
Kritter (24:26):
You know, I don't.
I'm pretty.
I'm really good at not staying,I'm really good at staying, mom
, right, if I'm supposed to.
I just love to know things.
I feel like that would be justthe ticket for me personally.
I guess if you're listening orwatching, let us know in the
comments or in Discord if youwould want long sight or if you
(24:49):
would rather go about life withlimited access to other people's
thoughts.
I mean, obviously we don't knowthe extent.
My, my impression is this ismore like he can kind of get, he
can kind of stay abreast of thegoings on in the world by kind
of seeing them through otherpeople.
It's not like he can read likethe finite, like very personal
(25:12):
thoughts of people, but it'smore like seeing through other
people.
It's not like he can read thefinite, very personal thoughts
of people, but it's more likeseeing through other people's
eyes.
That's how I envision it.
Jessica (25:17):
I took it as an added layer on context clues, right.
So even in the section thatyou're talking about, gandalf
mentions that as well as you did, pippin.
There are still things that youmentioned that he couldn't help
but notice.
He knows that there was anothermember of your party who was
revered or something along thoselines, that that in fact,
(25:37):
boromir was not the leader ofthe group that came away and et
cetera et cetera, and I was like, okay, so this is kind of like
he's always going to roll withadvantage.
Kritter (25:49):
On a 20 insight roll with advantage on a really Level
20 insight.
Jessica (25:51):
Yeah, he's gonna gnat 20 on insight on basically every
roll, and he's able to makereally really good inferences
and fill in the blanks.
Reading between the lines ofall the things that you're
saying, that's kind of how Itook it.
Kritter (26:06):
And my guess is like sort of just based on like when
they said, you know, he can alsoread things from people far off
, Kind of like whenever Frodowent and sat on that chair, you
know, and he can kind of likewhatever see the movements of
armies and whatnot From like wayoff in the distance, like that
is kind of what I'm picturingfor like far away, yeah.
(26:28):
Of course, knowing, like reading, like the very specific and
personal things in people'sminds, it would be very
intrusive and I would like toprevent myself from that part of
being like psychic, I thinkalongside and just like keeping
track of the goings on andhaving insane insight would be
pretty great In D&D terms, Ithink.
Jessica (26:48):
It's detect thoughts, and when you detect thoughts it
takes the surface level, butthere's a DC role, I think, to
do it, to delve in deeper.
Hmm, okay.
Kritter (26:58):
I couldn't help myself.
Jessica (26:59):
I had to make it D&D.
Kritter (27:01):
No, I think that's.
When I heard the word longsight, I was like that sounds
like an ability that somebodywould have, like some kind of I
don't know which class, but itfits, it fits indeed it totally
fits um okay.
So before gandalf leaves pippin, he asks him to make sure
shadow facts is being treatedwell.
(27:21):
On a scale of one to ten, howwould you rate gandalf as a
horse dad?
Jessica (27:28):
I would give him a 9.5.
I think that this is fantasticbecause he respects Shadowfax's
autonomy.
He knows that he is deigning tobe, you know, stabled because
they don't allow horses withinthe city.
I think Gandalf is reallycrushing it as horse dad.
Kritter (27:49):
Okay, we just need to see more to give him the full 10
.
We just don't have enough.
Yeah, just a little bit moreinformation, but I think um I I
really found it very endearingthat he asked pippa to check on
shadow facts I also, like youknow, because tolkien is really
good about really getting to themean potatoes of a story, right
(28:10):
, right, we get, we cover justso much that happens in these
stories and the books are notthat long right, and but the
fact that he took a minute to belike Gandalf's going to make
sure Shadowfax is taken care ofjust goes to show, I think, how
much he like, respects animalsand I don't know.
Jessica (28:27):
it just made me like Tolkien even more because he
didn't have to mention that atall.
But so I go back to the bill,the pony defense, like just all
of that.
Yeah, he took the time to writethat out.
Kritter (28:41):
That is so darling to me, like that's so excellent to
me anytime we we talk about andthe horses of rohan and yeah
it's all good stuff although,although I did, I think this
actually reminds me, and I gotreminded later reading this in a
different passage as well but Isaw, I think on TikTok or
(29:02):
somewhere, that there are infact more named horses in the
Lord of the Rings than there arewomen.
Jessica (29:11):
I believe that because I feel like there have been four
.
Kritter (29:15):
Five At least, and then we get more later.
Yeah, okay, and so, yeah, wedon't have many.
Oh women, yeah right, yes, yes,yes, we've got Eowyn Arwen
Galadriel.
Jessica (29:29):
Luthien.
Kritter (29:31):
Luthien who's not Luthien.
Luthien who's?
Jessica (29:32):
not Luthien.
Luthien is the girl.
Kritter (29:37):
Yeah, who is not in the story, but she's a named female
in the story.
Jessica (29:41):
Mm-hmm, I don't know of any Lobilia Sackville.
Kritter (29:46):
Baggins.
Yes, sorry, and I'm not sure ifthere are other women in the
list of relatives, it'srelatives.
So long since I thought of thesackville bagginses, I know,
well, sorry, I shouldn't havebrought them up, shouldn't have
brought it up.
Now I'm gonna be gritting myteeth.
I can't confirm that this istrue and, and I imagine like get
, because now that I'm thinkingof the fellowship where he has
that big long list of relativeswho get bequeathed things, part
(30:08):
of me is like they include thosepeople, or is it only people
that have, like, speaking parts,you know, not people who just
get mentioned, but like but,anyways, it doesn't matter.
Um, it does feel like thatcould be very true, though,
given the attention that horsesare paid, but it's a nice thing.
I wish there were more namedimportant women, but I do
(30:29):
appreciate that the horses getthe, you know, some respect
anyways.
Um, we meet baragond, soldierof gondor, and he's essentially
pippin's orientation leader.
They spend a pretty delightfulmorning together and then pippin
spends uh, the rest of the daywith baragond's Virgil.
(30:51):
Did you have any standoutmoments from this?
Jessica (30:55):
I thought they were.
I thought they were adorable.
Honestly, I thought that it wasgreat that he spotted him.
I thought that the way thatPippin played with Virgil was
adorable.
You know when he's oh, you havethe look of him and you know he
kind of.
You know Vir's oh, you have thelook of him and you know he
kind of.
You know virgil was kind ofblustery and and bravado with
(31:16):
him and and pippin answered inkind.
I thought that was really sweet.
Yeah, um, and he him talkingabout.
You know, there there'll behalfling warriors riding in with
the riders of rohan and how heregretfully had to dispel that
tale.
Just, I thought that it was anice little.
(31:38):
Um, I thought it was a nicelittle interlude, a great
positive experience for Pippinwith the folks of Minas Tirith.
Um, the, the father son act wassuper adorable.
Kritter (31:51):
Yeah, we definitely didn't get anything like that in
the movies, like that.
You know it was Pippin didn'thave a little jaunt on the town
with the town folk in the movie,so it was a fun little thing
that I had, truly completely.
Jessica (32:06):
You know, what it gave me honestly was Bard vibes.
So Bard, his son, you know whatI mean, and that's kind of what
that made me think of is okay,so we're gonna meet some regular
folk okay, yeah, that's true.
Um, so I will note that we gotanother nazgul not sighting, but
we heard the nazgul chillingit's only we're not gonna talk
(32:31):
it, because we're not going tocount it, because we said, you
know, winged shadow sightings.
Kritter (32:36):
Oh okay, Sightings, sightings, only Good to know.
And then in this conversation,I wanted to just put a little
pin in the fact that we foundout I'm not sure we heard this
before that Pippin is 28, nearly29, and that that wasn't yet of
age.
And I know that we knew that hewas the young one and he wasn't
(32:57):
fully of age, but I don't knowthat we had his actual age, A
number.
Jessica (33:01):
Yeah, I don't think we had a number either honestly.
Kritter (33:03):
So it's good to know.
Mm-hmm, we little lad 28,almost 29.
So after this day, Pippin, witha lonely gloom upon him, makes
his way back to his room withGandalf and falls asleep.
He wakes late in the night tofind Gandalf there.
Gandalf tells him to go back tosleep, that he will take him to
(33:24):
Denethor at sunrise, then notesthat they'll actually just wait
till he's summoned, because thedarkness has begun.
There will be no sunrise Notthe most hopeful end to a
chapter.
Any thoughts before we move on?
Jessica (33:41):
It's the first chapter of the book.
So we're starting out with like, oh okay, Soul crushing to
start Got it.
Kritter (33:48):
A little bit.
Yeah, yeah, so good to move onto the next chapter.
Any final thoughts?
Jessica (33:54):
I did have.
There was another, the shadowof doom.
There was another umami, Iwanted to share.
There's a couple of spots, sothis one's a little less.
I'm going to do the not so niceone and then the pretty one.
Okay, um, it's.
(34:15):
It's pippin talking.
No, who's talking to pippin?
I think it's baragond talkingto pippin, um, about the fact
that war is imminent.
And then he says here will thehammer stroke fall hardest, and
for that reason mithrandir camehither in such haste.
(34:37):
For if we fall, who shall standand master peregrine?
Do you see any hope that weshall stand?
And then the other one was justa little bit prettier.
Um, hope and memory shall livestill in some hidden valley
where the grass is green.
I do like that one.
Just little snippets that Ifound um, the only thing, the
(35:03):
only other thing.
Oh, I learned some newagricultural words.
As is my, as is my want.
Um, you know.
So tilts, um buyer, beer buyer,however you pronounce it, I
feel like I'm scrolling reallyfar.
(35:23):
There was a whole bunch of themthat was basically talking
about all the ways in which theyhave agriculture.
I was like I had to look upevery single one.
Of course I did, of course Idid.
Um, yeah, oh, and that thetower is 50 fathoms tall, so
that's like 60 feet, sorry, 300feet.
(35:46):
There we go.
That makes more sense 300 feet,so that's like 30 stories.
Kritter (35:52):
That's really really effing tall.
That's a football field, right.
Jessica (35:58):
Yes, that's 100 yards.
Kritter (36:00):
Okay, I was like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessica (36:03):
Pretty tall, Believe it or not.
I had to wait for my brain togo from vertical to horizontal
to be like yes, that tracks.
Kritter (36:12):
Yes, I believe that's true.
Jessica (36:14):
I am somebody who has to jump in the map, like Joey in
Friends.
I am that person.
Kritter (36:19):
Yeah, you cannot be blamed for that.
It makes sense.
Jessica (36:25):
So that's all I had for chapter one.
Kritter (36:28):
Okay.
Book five, chapter two, thePassing of the Grey Company.
We are now back with Merry,aragorn, gimli, legolas and
Theoden's escort, includingTheoden way, and they soon
(36:56):
encounter Halbarad Dunadan,ranger of the North, with 30
other rangers, and Elrond's sons, elrohir and Eladan.
The latter two have a messagefor Aragorn from their father.
The days are short.
If thou art in haste, rememberthe paths of the dead.
So I'm not going to lie withhow wise Elrond is.
I might just take this as amessage.
You should take the paths ofthe dead.
So I'm not gonna lie with howwise elrond is.
I might just take this as amessage.
You should take the paths ofthe dead and obey.
(37:18):
How would you have handled sucha message?
Jessica (37:22):
I agree, I think elrond has such street cred for me
after um, the council of elrond,much less whatever other kind
of history he he probablybecause Aragorn is old enough to
have had other dealings withhim.
Yeah, I'd probably take it onfaith.
Kritter (37:39):
It's like okay, yeah, I mean sure, if I'm in a hurry,
why would I not be?
Jessica (37:44):
Yeah, I was not expecting other rangers, so for
him to roll on up with 30rangers, I was like that's cool,
that's like having your ownspecial forces squad, right like
okay, yeah, that's gotta helpyeah, I mean, we've seen aragorn
yeah.
So even if they're only half ofaragorn, they're still bringing
(38:07):
something to the party for sureabsolutely worth more than just
one person.
Kritter (38:12):
Yes, without a doubt, which is mentioned, I believe,
by Théoden or one of his men.
So Halbarad also has a gift forAragorn from the Lady of
Rivendell.
She wrought it in secret andsent with it a message.
The days now are short.
Either our hope cometh or allhopes end.
(38:34):
Therefore, I send thee what Ihave made for thee.
Farewell, elfstone.
Sorry, that was it.
Aragorn told him to keep it forthe moment.
Did you have any thoughts onwhat it might be?
Did you have any thoughts aboutthe reveal that it was likely
galadriel that sent this aidtheir way?
Jessica (38:58):
I had no idea what it was, but I hooped it up I was
super excited when we were likeyes, uh, because lady galadriel
can do no wrong and so obviouslyshe was smart enough.
Once, once, um aragorn said Ididn't send the message I also
was like, well, who did?
(39:20):
And for a second I was like,yeah, is anybody suspicious of
this?
You know, maybe it's a, maybeit's a trick it's a trap trick.
Yeah, you know what Tolkien didthis to me.
All right, yeah, I'm suspiciousfor a reason, but I loved the
idea that it was Lady Galadrielbecause I already think that
(39:40):
she's preternaturallyintelligent and thinks of things
and knows things andcommunicates at a level that's
way beyond regular folk at alevel that's way beyond regular
folk.
Kritter (39:52):
Also, very much seems like she probably has long sight
, but like long sight, extremeright, cause she's got the pool
and all that.
Jessica (40:00):
It's level 10.
Kritter (40:01):
Yeah, way higher level than Denethor in the long sight.
At least I'm going to tellmyself that that she is far
superior in every way toDenethor, um, so Theoden takes
mary under his wing, getting hima I don't know what I meant to
write here a point and some gear.
(40:21):
Getting him something and somegear, um, and asking him to be
his esquire, which mary is supergrateful for, having felt very
much like unwanted baggage afterpippin's departure.
They spent some time togethertalking and eating, and mary
went so far as to say theodenwould be as a father to him.
So I found this really sweet.
(40:43):
What about you?
Jessica (40:45):
I thought it was very endearing and I think that it's
ironic um that they're eachswearing fealty almost at the
same time.
So I really liked the fact thatChapter 2 started off right
where Chapter 1 started off, sothat you know our gap was closer
.
I know that it doesn'tnecessarily mean that it will
(41:05):
stay that way, but I was kind ofrelieved when I saw that, was
kind of relieved when I saw that, um, and I just, yeah, I found
it very noteworthy that bothmary and pippin are having um
kind of parallel experiences.
Kritter (41:18):
Only, in my opinion, mary has a mary has a much
better benefactor yeah, Irealized that it a pony Pony.
Jessica (41:31):
Yes, he did get a pony, a good hill pony, no less yeah.
Kritter (41:37):
Yeah, I definitely think Mary is making out like a
band in here when it comes to, Idon't know, liege lords, there
you go, that's a good, andPippin not so much.
Not so much, unfortunately,unfortunately.
Um.
So I, I I must admit I didn'tactually look at the map to like
(41:57):
really get a concept of how allthese things are playing
together, but they go back tohelms deep and take a break and,
uh, I don't know how that likeworks out as far as like whether
they were heading away ortowards any relevant things.
But whatever, um aragorneventually decides, after much
deliberation and the use of thePalantir, to part ways with
Théoden's company.
(42:18):
He has decided to take the pathsof the dead.
Any thoughts about the exchangewith Théoden or Legolas and
Gimli about the matter?
Jessica (42:30):
I think that I liked seeing the what was said by the
seer, so they shared the whole.
Um prophecy, I guess, fromMalbeth um from the North.
Shall he come, need shall drivehim.
He shall pass the door to thepaths of the dead.
(42:51):
That whole I like that.
That.
That's fun lore, yeah, um, Ithought that it was very drastic
the way that he was describedlike he was physically changed
over the course of a night, um.
And so when he mentions usingthe palantir, I was like okay,
that makes sense, but also dangit, what are you doing?
(43:14):
And, uh, you know that wholeexchange happens on paper as
well, as people are like, well,gandalf told you you shouldn't
mess with it.
And his reply is essentiallywell, and I told gandalf, it's
actually mine and if I have thestrength and wherewithal to use
it, I'm going to wasn't itsomething like you forget with
whom you speak, or?
something I was like dang okayokay, it's exactly what he said.
(43:38):
You forget to whom you?
What do you fear that I shouldsay to him?
Did I not openly proclaim mytitle before the doors of Edoras
?
Uh, to obscure him somewhat?
And he knows that Sauron hasn'tforgotten Nilsildur and hasn't
(44:01):
forgotten the sword of Elendil,and you know, knows that he
revealed that it has beenreforged.
So, um, I think that it was abig gamble, but it got him the
information he needed, becauseimmediately after that he goes.
Well, I guess I have no choice.
It has to be the paths of thedead, you know.
So the fact that, uh, elrondtold him and then, when he was
(44:25):
looking in the palantir andseeing the doom that's coming
for everyone, um, you know, hereally felt like he had no
choice.
Kritter (44:34):
Yeah, that was this.
This was the way.
There was a couple of thingsfrom this.
Mary was feeling cast asideagain and missing Pippin even
more, which made me sad.
I think it's so sweet Wheneverlike either one of them is like
man.
I really wish I miss my buddyhere.
I know it's so, like it's real,it's so real.
And then I agree that Aragornusing the stone to make sauron
(44:58):
fearful was a bold move, butlike it seems like maybe it's
gonna pay off.
Uh, and then whenever, um,whenever the party not aragorn's
party, but like theoden's partyleaves with pippin and aomer,
aragorn says there go three thatI love, and the smallest, not
(45:20):
the least he knows not to whatend he rides.
Yet if he knew he would stillgo on.
I was just like he's soprecious it was so precious.
I love how, like everyone whoencounters the hobbits, can't
help but just love them andadmire them and respect them
because they do they leave suchan impression, which I think is
(45:41):
so great.
Um, okay, so aragorn's company,which I assume is what the, uh,
the gray company is?
Jessica (45:50):
I was probably three quarters of the way through the
chapter before I felt like thatwas confirmed.
Yeah, I kept thinking to myself.
I'm like so is that the graycompany?
Kritter (45:59):
I think it's them, I'm pretty sure it's these guys.
I think it's these guys socomplete with rangers gimley and
legolas, then rides for edorasand dunharrow, passing one night
under eowyn's roof beforemoving on.
While there, aragorn exchangessome tense words with eowyn
about his chosen path and herappointed duty to watch over her
(46:21):
people rather than riding tobattle.
A taste of her dissatisfactiongoes as follows all your words
are but to say you are a womanand your part is in the house.
But when men have died inbattle in honor, you have leave
to be burned in the house, forthe men will need it no more.
That one hit me pretty hard.
(46:43):
Stand out moments from theirlittle conversation.
Jessica (46:48):
That one hit me hard but at the same time I know this
is going to be very unpopular.
Aragorn, your path is not theone of valor or song, but no
less important.
Like someone has to make homesafe for those who can't go to
(47:08):
war, and it's not as glorious,but it's still a job that needs
doing.
There's more than one way tobring honor to your house.
I don't know.
I know that that's it's gettingmoved on.
Yeah, you know, and it's hardbecause it's such a fraught path
(47:28):
, because it's it could be seenas a way to make very gendered
roles more palatable, and that'snot really what I'm trying to
say, but I can see how someonewould hear it that way, and if
that's the case, then I'm sorry,but I do think that there's
(47:52):
honor in making sure that homeexists for those who can't go to
fight, that home exists forthose who can't go to fight, and
that if she left to be atrained shield maiden, as she is
and as her rights, I think thatit would be without honor if
she didn't leave someone equallyas capable as her to ensure the
(48:14):
wellbeing of those individuals.
I think that's probably mytakeaway.
I understand the frustration ahundred percent.
I absolutely agree that she isa trained shield maiden and she
should not be withheld from thebattle simply because she's a
woman.
I have no issue with thatwhatsoever.
What I have an issue with isyour duty needs to be done as
(48:37):
well, so if you go, who picks upthat duty?
Kritter (48:41):
The people still need a leader and you're the.
You know you were given thattask.
Were you given that taskbecause you were a woman?
Jessica (48:49):
Yeah, yes, and that is unfortunate.
I'm not disagreeing with thatat all.
But those people still requireleadership and someone to look
out for them.
And if you abandon them, howcan you, how can you say you
have honor if you leavevulnerable people without
leadership?
Kritter (49:10):
I flagged a little umami here, which is, I think,
almost word for word from themovies.
But Aragorn asks what do youfear, my lady?
And she replies to stay behindbars until use and old age
accept them and all chance ofdoing great deeds is gone beyond
recall and desire.
And I felt that honestly, likenow that I'm kind of rehashing
(49:34):
that conversation.
Um, I'm not going to spoilanything, but there's a
character in the wheel of timewho is a woman, who is a like
high up member of a verywell-to-do important house and
she leaves and, uh, she swearsto be, she's trying, she goes to
(49:56):
be a hero of the horn, right,she just wants something more
than like clerical, like noblelife.
She wants her life to be moreexciting than that.
And, honestly, there's a lot ofnow that I'm thinking of it
parallels between those two,just because it's, yeah, like
yeah, I think that's a greatanalogy.
Yeah, even if that's the thingthat you were like like born
(50:16):
into, you don't have to like it,you don't have to want it and
you could crave something more.
And yeah, I think my preferencewould have been she appoints,
she finds somebody else toappoint and gets to go, but is
there someone else that's ascapable?
Jessica (50:38):
And I don't want to undercut the heart of your
question, which really, to me,is like is it fair that, because
she's a woman, she got leftwith this duty?
No, I don't think that it'sfair.
However, there's still honor inthe task.
Kritter (50:53):
Absolutely Without a doubt.
I think that my final noteabout these conversations is
what happens the next morning,which I really, really didn't
like.
She literally fell on her kneesand begged aragorn to let her
join him as a last ditch effortand I was just like, uh, I don't
like no, I get that she was sodesperate, but I just didn't
love the look, but I didn't feelher pain, like I ached for her.
Jessica (51:21):
Cause she's a level of frustration, cause she's also
portrayed as a proud woman, soI'm sure it was no small thing
for her to throw herself andprostrate in that manner.
I, yeah, I'm completelysympathetic to her plight and
also, you know, having a handdealt to you that you don't want
.
Yeah, Also very sympathetic tothat plate.
(51:42):
But that doesn't mean you knowthere's still honor to be found,
there's still good to be done.
I hear you that's.
Kritter (51:53):
I always related to her so much because, like growing
up, you I'm from the midwest andthis is probably true in a lot
of places, but like there werejust things that they just
didn't want girls to do rightand so, like my family and like
some of my family friends everyyear would take the boys, like
the dads would take the boys onthis like overnight float trip,
(52:14):
and I was always like, oh my god, I want to get, like I would
love to go.
That sounds amazing outdooradventure, please like.
That is my middle name.
They never let me go because Iwas a girl and it just like, oh,
it literally just to this day.
Clearly I haven't forgotten andit was a long, long time ago.
Um, so I get it.
(52:34):
I'm that.
My bnao and man were like this.
I get it.
I get it.
My B&A-O and man were like this.
I get it, I get it.
I feel bad.
Okay, well, the Grey Company,as we're assuming they are, make
it to the door, to the Path ofthe Dead.
Gimli's blood runs chill and weget a little note that all
hearts quailed, save for that ofLegolas, for whom ghosts of men
(52:58):
have no terror.
I thought that was aninteresting note.
Did it get your attention atall?
Jessica (53:08):
It did.
I think it was a nice contrastto Gimli, who's talking like
quote pursued by a gropinghorror, pursued by a groping
horror, um.
So it was quite a contrast.
Uh, you know, and especiallyfor gimli, you know, almost
feels like a, um, not a fraud,but maybe like a failure, as a
dwarf to be scared of a cave, um.
Kritter (53:32):
So I did think that it was good contrast there that
gave us a little bit of humorand then otherwise very dark
situation.
What kind of a dwarf am I tohesitate going into a cave that
an elf would go into, orsomething along those lines?
Jessica (53:48):
I have a question to ask you.
Yeah, do you read this chapteras all of the rangers went, or
just the three named rangerswent to Elrond's sons and
halbrad?
Kritter (54:02):
I read it as they all went okay.
Yeah, did you read itdifferently?
Jessica (54:08):
no, I was unclear.
I, by the time I realized toask the question, I was most of
the way through the chapter andI was like I think they said all
the rangers went with them.
But yeah, which is differentthan the movie.
Kritter (54:17):
So it makes sense that you'd be like wait because they
didn't.
None all the rangers went withthem, but yeah, which is
different than the movie.
So it makes sense that you'd belike wait Because none of the
rangers went with them in themovies.
Jessica (54:24):
No, I don't remember meeting any other rangers in the
movies.
Kritter (54:29):
Yeah, okay.
Jessica (54:31):
Okay.
Kritter (54:33):
I think they did, but it's not like somebody who
stands out Well, and I whostands out?
Jessica (54:39):
I haven't rewatched Return of the King yet.
Kritter (54:42):
That's why I'm hesitating, because I feel like
I'm picturing somebody that I'mlike I'm pretty sure this is a
ranger, but I don't thinkthey're ever like extremely
explicit about who.
It is Right, and so it wouldmake sense that you, never
having read them, would have noconcept that that's a ranger.
If I recall, cut it If I recall, I think.
(55:03):
Anyways, I hate being wrong,but I'm pretty sure that's how
it went.
It's okay, all right.
So Legolas eventually notesthat the dead have begun
following the party, and Elidanreplies in the affirmative,
noting that they'd been summoned.
So I don't remember them beingsummoned.
What summoned them?
(55:23):
Do you think that felt?
Jessica (55:24):
that was what felt unclear to me so there was a
point earlier, when they firstgot to the big scary rock, the
aragorn, just kind of spoke intothe atmosphere oh was that
before this.
Kritter (55:39):
Okay, yes, that's on me , I must have.
When I was going back andoutlining, I must have missed
that, because no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because my literal
next well, maybe they, maybethere are multiple stones,
because literally the next thingmy outline is the party reaches
the stone of Eric and Aragorntakes a moment, yelling to
summon the dead to follow him,calling Halberd to unfurl the
(56:02):
banner, and then they continuedriding along the road.
Jessica (56:06):
So he calls for everyone to follow me at the
door, not the stone.
So that was my mistake.
Okay, I think the implicationis that he's talking to the
party.
Kritter (56:17):
That's yes, that's what I remember.
Jessica (56:19):
Okay, do, yes, that's what I remember.
Okay, do-do-do.
Drew.
Near, he saw Aragorn kneelingwhile Elodan held a lock both
towards him.
So before him were the bones.
So he says something over thebones.
So yes, this is it.
So he's standing over the bones, right, a mighty, mighty man.
(56:39):
He had been clad in mail andstill his harness lay there
whole, for the cavern's air wasdry as dust and his hopper was
gilded, etc.
Etc.
Aragon did not touch him, butafter gazing silently for a
while, he rose inside.
Hither shall the flowers ofsimple mind come.
Never unto world's end, hemurmured.
Nine mounds and seven there arenow green with grass through
(57:01):
all the long years.
He is laying at the door thathe could not unlock.
Whither does it lead?
Why would he pass?
None shall ever know, for thatis not my errand, he cried,
turning back and speaking to thewhispering darkness behind keep
your hordes and your secretshidden in the accursed years.
Speed only we ask.
Let us pass and then come.
(57:21):
I summon you to the stone oferic oh, you caught it.
Kritter (57:26):
Okay.
Well, I missed that completely.
Um, my mistake.
So they get to the stone oferic, having been followed, and
erorn summons them and callsthem.
He unfurls the banner, whichwas the gift I guess arwen had
crafted the the king's bannerfor aragorn um, and then they
(57:47):
continued along the road and thedead followed without further
ceremony.
And that ends the chapter.
Did that surprise you, how thatall went?
Jessica (57:57):
down.
It was intense.
It was not what I was expecting.
It was different than the movie.
The way that I remember themovie, I think that it was.
I think that it makes sensethat it was less climactic here,
because it's not the climax ofthe movie.
(58:18):
Does that make sense?
I always felt like it was aseparate climax, the way that it
was represented on screen.
And so here it's himmarshalling forces.
I did like the end of thischapter.
I was like so two chaptercloses in a row that were really
strong closes.
But the next day there came nodawn and the gray company passed
(58:41):
on into the darkness of thestorm of Mordor and were lost to
mortal sight.
But the dead followed them and Iwas like, yes, so I thought
that was a hell of a good way toend the chapter.
I'm like, okay, we're only twochapters in and we are bringing
(59:04):
the sauce the doom and gloom,the, the suspense, without a
doubt.
Kritter (59:10):
So do you have any further thoughts before we pick
an mvp?
Jessica (59:13):
oh god, uh, I did.
There was one little blip whereGimli mentions Caves of Wonder
below, mentions their game andthat he won it by a single orc
and that there are Caves ofWonder and do you think we'll
ever see it?
And Legolas is like essentiallyI told you, buddy, if we ever
(59:35):
see a day of peace, yes, we willcome back and we will see it.
So we get a little call back tothe bromance from before and I
honestly loved it.
So I thought it was great.
I think that was all I reallyhad from chapter two that we
didn't touch on.
Kritter (59:53):
Okay, yeah, all right.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (01:00:10):
That's so hard.
I think I have to go withAragorn.
He's making the hard calls.
He's taking the really sketchypaths because, based on the
information he has available tohim, that's what it's going to
take for him to be able to fightagainst the enemy.
(01:00:35):
So I'm going to give it up forAragorn.
Kritter (01:00:40):
That is fair.
This is tricky because we'vegot two POVs, like two separate
POV chapters, right.
So I have to like I think I'mgiving honorable mention to
Gandalf just because he truly istaking one for the team by
going and dealing with Deadathor.
But I agree with you thatAragorn made the hardest of
(01:01:04):
calls and is doing the mostdangerous of tasks, despite much
opposition, and it seems thathe is so far succeeding right.
Therefore, the dead isfollowing him, dead are
following him, which feels likea huge win.
And so, yeah, even thoughGandalf had to put up with that
(01:01:28):
old crotchety man, it's going tobe Aragorn for me too.
I agree, I think he takes it.
Jessica (01:01:35):
Gandalf was definitely a contender Because Denethor
does not seem easy to manage andI can understand that there's
value and weight to managingthat situation, but I feel like
Aragorn is the one who paid offin these chapters, so that's
ultimately how I got there.
Kritter (01:01:55):
Just another little as official as honorable mention,
but I do want to like call outtheoden for kind of taking mary
under his wing, because that wasreally sweet that was a sweet
moment, but obviously nothing asintense as aragorn.
So, yeah, okay, okay, same, allright, oh, let us let us know
(01:02:15):
in the comments or on discord um, as always, who your MVP is for
this episode.
I think there's at least acouple contenders for sure, and
we always love to hear what youthink.
Jessica (01:02:26):
Yeah.
So that's it for us for thisweek.
We would ask you all to readBook 5, chapters 3 through 5.
For next week, we would like tosay thank you so much for
joining us in episode one forseason four of but are there
dragons brought to you by yourhost, jessica Sadai, and critter
XD?
Don't forget to follow us atbut are there dragons on YouTube
(01:02:50):
, instagram and Tik TOK and?
But dragons pod?
Just one T on X.
You can also find us on socialmedia as Critter XD and Shelf
Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're going to continueworkshopping new catch freezes
through season four, so let usknow on social media how you
feel about this.
One.
Farewell, listeners.
(01:03:11):
Ride unto great renown.
Kritter (01:03:15):
Bye, renown Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Return of the King by JRR
Tolkien, with me as the residentLord of the.
Rings veteran and me as theLord of the Rings first-timer In
(00:29):
this our first episode ofSeason 4, we're going to discuss
Book 5, Chapters 1 and 2.
Season 4.
Jessica (00:41):
Before we dive in.
Kritter (00:42):
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you?
Jessica (00:43):
feeling.
I feel pretty good.
You know a little certainsomething happened this last
weekend, um known as my wedding.
So yeah, it's official, there'sa, there's a Mr Jessica out
there and um, now we're home andand stuff can go back to
somewhat normal, so that's alsoa good thing.
Kritter (01:05):
How about you?
I am doing well, doing well.
I'm so close to being in mythird trimester, so your girl is
getting more and moreuncomfortable as the days go on,
but it's more and more excitingtoo.
So times are.
Times are changing.
For all of us, it seemsAbsolutely Yay, yeah, cool.
(01:26):
So times are changing.
For all of us, it seems Yay,yeah, cool, okay.
So let's get into this book,shall we, let's do it All right.
so book five, chapter one, minasTirith.
It's wild to me the word Returnof the King, I don't know right
.
That's the last book of thetrilogy.
Jessica (01:43):
I feel like it's gone really quick yeah, not in a
negative way, king, I don't know, like right, like that's the
last book, the trilogy.
I feel like it's gone reallyquick.
Yeah, not in a negative way.
I don't think we've skippedanything.
I feel like we took our time,we've savored the good stuff, um
, but we got here with reallygood time.
Kritter (01:56):
Yeah, I think so.
I think we did it's.
Uh, it's gonna be weird oncewe're done too, because, like,
this reread has been on my listfor a very long time and, uh,
having read them again in suchdetail, I think, is it's been a
whole new experience for me,because you and I are both like
let it wash over me kind ofpeople right like we're not
(02:16):
totally died like delving intothe minutiae, but this time we
kind of are.
So it's been different.
Good stuff, it is okay.
So, uh, we start this book backwith pippin and gandalf blazing
a trail to minas tirth.
At one point pippin exclaimsseeing great fires in the
(02:37):
distance and asking if there aredragons.
Very good question.
But Gandalf explains that thefires are the beacons of Gondor,
already lit, calling for aid.
First of all, you love to seedragons get mentioned, love to
hear it.
And second, did the beaconsalready being lit surprise you?
Jessica (02:59):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I was like wait, what'shappening?
Okay, we're going out of order.
Okay, fine, bring it and thenit proceeds to tell us in detail
where all the beacons are.
So there are a lot of landmarksthat I don't necessarily know
right, but you know the litanyis is listed out for um all the
spots where they have beacons.
Kritter (03:20):
It yeah, it is.
It is because it's uh, I care,I don't think it's only in the
extended edition, but in themovies pippin lights, the first
beacon, right like gandalfenlists him to do you forget?
Okay, well, never mind it's.
It's different than in themovies, I believe you okay.
Um, also just a little note.
We've got a nazgul sighting,like yeah, right away after the
(03:44):
first night's ride.
Jessica (03:45):
Um I have a feeling that we're gonna count those.
Right, we're, we're gonna countthose.
That's the plan.
Kritter (03:51):
First, the first one sighting this yeah, um, I have a
feeling this book might, thatmight, get a little overwhelming
.
Oh, fair, but fair we will.
We can do it for now.
I think doing it for now is aworthy exercise.
So, after this big, long grind,gandalf is greeted at the outer
wall of Minas Tirith.
(04:11):
The guards are suspicious ofPippin, of all people who, by
the way, if you didn't catch ourrap party, won MVP for the Two
Towers.
So go, pippin, we'll see how hedoes this time for the two
towers.
So go pippin, we'll see how hedoes this time.
Um, anyways, they weren'tunderstanding what he might be
you know they're like what?
is this?
A dwarf?
(04:31):
I'm not sure.
Gandalf vouches for him, though, calling him a valiant man,
which rouses pippin from hissleep because he was asleep in
protest.
Neither a man nor valiant safe.
Perhaps by necessity he says so.
I missed our Two Towers MVP andhis quick wit.
Are you happy to be back withhim here?
Jessica (04:54):
Absolutely, and I think that the way that he just
demurs that one that he's justso sassy about you know a man, I
am not, nor valiant, you knowhe's, so he's, he's humble, but
also has a pert mouth, so I likethat.
Kritter (05:16):
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was.
It was funny how he stood upfor himself but also was, like
you know, valiant.
Also, I don't know if you're,if you're only listening and not
watching this.
I just now noticed this um, weare.
We are recording this on theeve of the fourth of july it's a
slightly off schedule recordingpress, just because of the
holiday, and we're wearing redand blue and white oh yeah, he
(05:41):
wrote the white on the headset.
Jessica's wearing red, I'mwearing blue.
Uh, so completely unintentionalpatriotism yeah, but it happens
.
Jessica (05:50):
But go us go, yeah, way to nail it, yeah.
Kritter (05:55):
Hashtag america.
Um okay, so it seems thatgandalf has a similar reputation
in Gondor as he has elsewhere,always with tidings of grief and
danger.
Are we surprised?
Jessica (06:11):
No, but I love the fact that in this chapter they
actually talk about it, and Iknow that it's not there, but
I've kind of imposed on that.
But you come with tidings ofgrief and danger, as is your
want, they say.
And Gandalf's response I kindof infused with a little bit of
exasperation, because I comeseldom but when my help is
(06:36):
needed because it's more, it'sone of, I think, three different
times in this chapter.
Somebody who's like oh you know, you're such a dire messenger
and you never come except forwhen you know stuff goes
sideways or whatever.
And at one point in the chapterI was just like I'm getting the
feeling that this gets old forGandalf.
(06:56):
You know I feel a little bit badfor him.
Nobody's ever happy to see himbecause he's basically always a
harbinger of doom or, at thevery least, bringing bad news.
Basically, at a certain pointhe's basically always a
harbinger of doom or, at thevery least, bringing bad news.
Kritter (07:07):
Basically, at a certain point he's going to be like
fine, you want me to stay home,I can just stay home, I can just
stay home, you can handle thison your own.
You don't need to know thatthere's a giant army coming or
that Isengard fell, or any ofthis.
He would be totally justifiedin replying to people.
People like that oh oh, youdon't want me here, that's fine,
(07:27):
I can leave.
um, he would never, but he wouldbe justified but it's clear he
hears it a lot he, yeah, likeevery single time he goes to a
new place as far as this trilogyand actually including the
hobbit is concerned.
Um so I thought that was funny.
So pippin is struck by thegrandness and beauty of minas
(07:52):
tirith, but notes that it doesseem to have fallen into decay.
Does anything stand out to youfrom the description of the city
?
Jessica (08:02):
um, so the things that stood out to me.
We always know it's always kindof funny and and uh, a roll of
the dice, what's going to standout to me while I'm going
through?
So the thing that stood out tome is the way the seven tiers
were described and how the gatesare offset right, so the gates
don't line up, they're all atdifferent points, which seems
(08:23):
strategic.
And then I also took note ofPippin noticing that on every
major street heavilyparaphrasing that there's at
least one empty great house onevery street.
Speaking to, it's not as fullas it should be.
There's not as many people hereas there should be.
Kritter (08:42):
Yeah, I agree that it is a crapshoot as to what will
stand out to me also, and noneof the architecture.
I mean, you know, I read thearchitecture and.
I understand that it was there,but for me it was the outfits
of the guards of the Citadelthat sounded pretty awesome.
They had Mithril helmets Likehello that's wild.
Jessica (09:03):
So I was like isn they had Mithril helmets Like hello,
that's wild, yeah.
So I was like isn't that stufflike super expensive and we're
just putting it on as likeadornment, because it was like
the wings or something, it wasdecorative?
Yeah, something, but like itwas only for, like, the guards
of the Citadel too, I think,which is, like you know, the big
bad.
Like the white, the white, notthe white.
(09:27):
So were these those, the sameguards that are dressed in the
air of a lendiel bannermanclothes?
Kritter (09:29):
the white tree blossoming beneath a silver
crown on their surcoats yeah,that outfit like if I was a
guard, if I had to wear, justlike a right, not regular,
because these guys aren'tregular.
But yeah, this is basically theequivalent of, like in Game of
Thrones, the Kingsguard, or likethe fancy, fancy, fanciest of
fancy, guard outfits.
Jessica (09:51):
And so that stuck out to me, because this is all so to
your point, to use your analogy, game of Thrones, right, like
they're flashing the coat ofarms for heirs of Elendil, but
nobody in the city is the heirof Elendil.
You know there's only one andwe know where he is, and it's
not Minas Tirith.
So I thought that it was kindof neat that they are wearing a
(10:16):
coat of arms essentially forsomeone who is not represented
in the city currently.
They're waiting.
Kritter (10:23):
And they walk past the tree that apparently is dead,
looks dead.
It's the tree that pippin sawin the whenever he grabbed the
stone palantir um, yeah, thepalantir, so it's all coming
together, basically but Idefinitely took note of that.
Jessica (10:38):
The, the seven stones get mentioned and I was like, oh
so the palantir are linkedsomehow to minister and that
would make sense because onepalantir in particular we know
that aragorn said was hisbirthright right.
Kritter (10:57):
So, and we know, like the history of them, the men
essentially had them in theirstrongholds way back in the day.
So, uh, I guess, the men ofnumenor, the men, it's the
history, lots and lots ofhistory in the series so uh,
yeah, it's.
It's fun to go to a place that'sso clearly invested with all of
(11:19):
that lore, even if the king orthe heir is nowhere to be found
as far as Denethor and the restof them know so far.
Speaking of, gandalf warnsPippin not to mention Frodo or
Aragorn, and when Pippin isshocked at Gandalf's comment
that Aragorn would claim thekingship when he came, we get
(11:42):
another sick burn from Gandalf.
If you have walked all thesedays with closed ears and mind
asleep, wake up now.
Do you believe Pippin reallydidn't know about Aragorn?
Like was he just?
Is that?
Is that real life?
I was just so surprised.
Jessica (11:58):
I mean, pippin is the one who didn't even know where
they were on a map, right LikeMary did.
So as much as I love our guyPippin, I just don't think he's
a pay attentioner which I'm notjudging because I'm not a pay
attentioner either but I dothink it's pretty crazy that we
(12:21):
find out that Strider is Aragornand Aragorn is the heir, and
Pippin still doesn't know that.
That is pretty wild.
I do think it's fun.
Gandalf also said to him thisis no time for hobbit pertness,
you know, like just telling himup front.
You know, keep your sass incheck.
In terms of architecture,though, there was one other
throwback Pippin mentions.
Pippin kind of draws acorollary between the way that
(12:46):
the stonework is done in MinasTirith and reminded of the hewn
rocks of Argonath, and all fellon him, and so again I felt like
that kind of tied back to thoseNumenorean roots the men.
So that I kind of liked that,because it was a real subtle way
for the read to remind me like,oh, these are those roots,
(13:07):
these men are in factdescendants of those people.
It would make sense that theywould have um some architectural
likenesses For sure.
Kritter (13:17):
Yeah, it's all, it's the lore it's in there.
It's all interwoven, which isreally cool.
It kind of reminds me of uh, totalk about another property
like the white tower, you know,because like all in tears, it's
white washed or should be justit sounds really like a cool,
neat place and, of course, likewe've seen it in the movie and
it is really impressive andmajestic.
(13:39):
So it was easy to picturebasically.
So they get to Denethor,gandalf greets him and Denethor
already has tidings of Boromir'sdeath.
He's in possession of thecloven horn of Boromir and he's
been told that Pippin witnessedit already and I think that was
(14:00):
a conversation they had like outat the gates or something like
literally.
So he's hearing things veryquickly.
Um, we also get confirmationthat it's only been 13 days
since foramir died.
Yep, but with everything that'shappened, it it truly feels
like much, much longer.
Even, of course, the read waslike very pleasurable, but it
(14:21):
just feels like so much hashappened.
Yeah, that blow your mind asmuch as it does.
Yeah, I highlighted it, I madea.
The read was like verypleasurable, but it just feels
like so much has happened, yeah.
Jessica (14:27):
Does that blow your mind as much as it does?
Yeah, I highlighted it.
Kritter (14:28):
I made a note I was like so they rode for like two
more days.
Jessica (14:31):
So we're saying that the contents of what happened in
the two towers took place overthe course of essentially 10,
maybe 11 days.
Yeah, that's insane.
Kritter (14:44):
Insane Like Isengard got taken down y'all like in 10
days.
You know from, yeah, fromconception to birth?
Jessica (14:56):
I don't know it literally just yeah, it was
really.
It was kind of crazy to hearthat and be like, oh, that that
was a week and a half ago.
All of that happened in a weekand a half, essentially.
Kritter (15:10):
Mary Pippin and Treebeard became best friends in
very short periods.
Jessica (15:12):
And overthrew Isengard.
You know no big.
Kritter (15:15):
Yeah, just like casual friend stuff, you know.
It's like team building, yeah,but like you know, it takes team
building to a whole t buildingsome destruction.
Yeah, with a little destruction, just a little.
It's not like an exerciseanymore, it's real life, um
anyway.
So den thor questions pippinabout boromir's death, noting
(15:37):
wisely oh, and pippin noteswisely that the mightiest man
may be slain by one arrow, andBoromir was pierced by many.
He then offers his service toDenethor as payment of a debt he
feels he has.
Would you have done the same?
Jessica (15:53):
No, because Denethor already rubs me the wrong way.
I know there's movie bias.
I understand there's movie bias.
We went into this and just theimmediately I was like this man
is working him hard and Pippin,I feel like, starts off on the
(16:16):
defensive and maybe it's alittle bit of defensiveness on
Pippin's behalf as well.
But like no, you, just you,don't come at my boy like that.
Ultimately, throughout thisscene, pippin feels like a bit
of a tug of war rope betweenthese two men, and I didn't like
it at all.
And so Denethor is already a no.
Kritter (16:37):
Thank you for maybe wouldn't have just immediately
been like.
My sword is your sword.
Jessica (16:43):
No, and I don't think that it's right that Pippin
feels he owes him anything.
Yes, boromir was brave and yes,he wanted to save you, but it's
not like you sat there and atehoney cakes while he got
murdered.
You were taken into custody,you were then captured and
hauled away and faced your owntrials and tribulations.
(17:04):
It's not as though youabandoned him to die on your
behalf, anyways.
So I had some thoughts andfeelings about this when I read
this, but it's very sweet andendearing and just shows you
know the heart of a hobbit Forsure.
Kritter (17:20):
I wanted to note in this little sequence, whenever
he does offer himself and hisservice to Xanathor a little
literary umami.
First in this season, a palesmile like a gleam of cold sun
on a winter's evening passedover the old man's face Like a
(17:42):
pale smile and cold right,because it's like cold sun and
winter.
It's just kind of like I don'tlove that.
It's.
It's a beautiful description,but what I'm getting is
something that's kind ofchilling.
Uh, tillian, yeah, and I'mworried that it is like movie
(18:02):
bias, but I feel like they're.
Tolkien was sending us somesymbols here with the language
that he used.
We've already got this manbeing very cold and calculating,
so you mentioned this already.
But Gandalf and Denethor thenproceed to basically have a
staring contest and Pippin seesthat they are rather similar.
(18:25):
Both have wizard vibes andthough Denethor looked more
kingly, beautiful, powerful andolder, pippin could sense that
Gandalf in fact had the greaterpower, deeper wisdom and veiled
majesty and was much, much older.
When Gandalf and Pippin tooktheir leave from Denethor,
(18:46):
gandalf and Denethor again sharetense words, denethor reminding
Gandalf that he won't be usedand that his primary directive
is the good of Gondor, andGandalf one-upping him, noting
that all worthy things are inhis care, for he is also a
steward.
How did this first meetingslash confrontation hit for you
(19:09):
between these two great men, Imean?
Jessica (19:11):
sparks and oil it was, and so I can definitely
understand the concept of beinga leader of people and having to
work against other strongpersonalities like Gandalf or
whatever.
But this seemed very conflictridden from the get-go and I
(19:35):
don't really feel like all ofthat came from Gandalf.
I feel like a lot of that camefrom Denethor, and I also got
from the reading that it seemslike Denethor is and Faramir
like him, but not so much.
Boromir seems to have a verystrong charisma right and can
(19:57):
read between the lines and has avery high intellect and is
getting more information than,you know, a regular man might,
and so I thought that that wasan interesting note, that that
some of their background waskind of giving him advantage and
lets him read between the linesmore and obviously his state
(20:21):
craft you know he's been thesteward for however long.
I'm sure he's picked up sometricks.
I I understand not wanting toget worked by somebody else, but
at the same time I felt that hewas truly, truly um being
obstructive just because hecould yeah, like questioning
(20:45):
pippin when gandalf is rightthere.
Yes, it felt very much like apower play and I don't have much
patience for that sort ofbehavior in fiction or in real
life.
I would be like, okay, I'm allset with you, right.
Have fun burning down thecastle.
Kritter (21:02):
I don't, if you want to talk, let's talk, but, like,
don't leave me sitting herewhile you're questioning a
hobbit about how your son died.
Jessica (21:09):
Just because you want to, you know know, have a
measuring contest.
I don't know like.
It's just not a good lookthat's how it felt.
Kritter (21:17):
I totally agree, yeah, um.
So when they're alone again,gandalf's mood completely shifts
.
He seems tickled by pippin'schoice to enter denethor's
service.
We also learn, as you mentioned, that Denethor has a bit of I
guess we could call it magic inhim.
Him and Faramir both stronglycarry the blood of Westerness
(21:41):
and he's got, quote long sight,which they describe as a bit of
a mind reader, even for thosethat are far off.
So did this like bit of magic?
Surprise you and would you wantlong sight?
Jessica (21:58):
Yes, it surprised me.
Yes, I would like it.
I think that it's insight intothe character that I would have
liked to have known before.
I think that it would probablychange my perception of him.
Yeah, because I really justthought he was a grumbly old man
.
So not that he isn't a grumblyold man, that didn't change but
(22:21):
it it's advantage, right Likethere's, he's got tools in his
tool belt that not everybodyelse has available to him.
And it does help him, apparently, understand things in a way
that other people you know,allows him insight that other
people don't have.
Kritter (22:37):
Yeah, he's got.
Like you know, whenever yousend somebody a meme and you saw
it, like a week ago on TikTok Ialways try to resist the urge
and I feel like I really dosucceed at not being like oh
yeah, I saw this already, youknow, and I feel like I really
do succeed at not being like ohyeah, I saw this already.
You know what I mean.
I laugh Right.
(22:58):
I feel like Denethor's theopposite.
Jessica (23:00):
Yes, he's like oh yeah, I saw this already.
Kritter (23:03):
Like great Okay.
Jessica (23:05):
Steamed it.
Kritter (23:06):
Already steamed it.
Yeah, why are we like what goodam?
I to you, then yeah, it's justkind of like surely there is
stuff that I know that you don'tknow, so why don't you just
like stop being such a meanieabout it?
Jessica (23:22):
I think his bad attitude and the long sight are
completely unrelated.
Kritter (23:27):
I think so too.
Jessica (23:28):
I think that he's just kind of an ornery old dude and
he has this benefit of this longsight which I would think to
your point.
I would think it would imbueyou with a certain amount of
patience, like other peopledon't have all the information
that I have to work with.
No, he chose to go another way,just to be a bigger jerk about
(23:50):
it, Basically like on his on,not his throne on his steward's
chair, just kind of like you'rewasting my time.
Kritter (23:57):
Okay, thanks, which is just not a good look.
No, my favorite.
I too would like long side.
Jessica (24:04):
You know, I don't think I'd have any problem being
psychic, I think it would benice well, and I like knowing
things same knowing how thingswork, yeah yeah, well, and and
sometimes, although I don'tthink of myself really as a
gossip, but every once in awhile I'll just be like oh, I
(24:24):
just like to know.
Kritter (24:26):
You know, I don't.
I'm pretty.
I'm really good at not staying,I'm really good at staying, mom
, right, if I'm supposed to.
I just love to know things.
I feel like that would be justthe ticket for me personally.
I guess if you're listening orwatching, let us know in the
comments or in Discord if youwould want long sight or if you
(24:49):
would rather go about life withlimited access to other people's
thoughts.
I mean, obviously we don't knowthe extent.
My, my impression is this ismore like he can kind of get, he
can kind of stay abreast of thegoings on in the world by kind
of seeing them through otherpeople.
It's not like he can read likethe finite, like very personal
(25:12):
thoughts of people, but it'smore like seeing through other
people.
It's not like he can read thefinite, very personal thoughts
of people, but it's more likeseeing through other people's
eyes.
That's how I envision it.
Jessica (25:17):
I took it as an added layer on context clues, right.
So even in the section thatyou're talking about, gandalf
mentions that as well as you did, pippin.
There are still things that youmentioned that he couldn't help
but notice.
He knows that there was anothermember of your party who was
revered or something along thoselines, that that in fact,
(25:37):
boromir was not the leader ofthe group that came away and et
cetera et cetera, and I was like, okay, so this is kind of like
he's always going to roll withadvantage.
Kritter (25:49):
On a 20 insight roll with advantage on a really Level
20 insight.
Jessica (25:51):
Yeah, he's gonna gnat 20 on insight on basically every
roll, and he's able to makereally really good inferences
and fill in the blanks.
Reading between the lines ofall the things that you're
saying, that's kind of how Itook it.
Kritter (26:06):
And my guess is like sort of just based on like when
they said, you know, he can alsoread things from people far off
, Kind of like whenever Frodowent and sat on that chair, you
know, and he can kind of likewhatever see the movements of
armies and whatnot From like wayoff in the distance, like that
is kind of what I'm picturingfor like far away, yeah.
(26:28):
Of course, knowing, like reading, like the very specific and
personal things in people'sminds, it would be very
intrusive and I would like toprevent myself from that part of
being like psychic, I thinkalongside and just like keeping
track of the goings on andhaving insane insight would be
pretty great In D&D terms, Ithink.
Jessica (26:48):
It's detect thoughts, and when you detect thoughts it
takes the surface level, butthere's a DC role, I think, to
do it, to delve in deeper.
Hmm, okay.
Kritter (26:58):
I couldn't help myself.
Jessica (26:59):
I had to make it D&D.
Kritter (27:01):
No, I think that's.
When I heard the word longsight, I was like that sounds
like an ability that somebodywould have, like some kind of I
don't know which class, but itfits, it fits indeed it totally
fits um okay.
So before gandalf leaves pippin, he asks him to make sure
shadow facts is being treatedwell.
(27:21):
On a scale of one to ten, howwould you rate gandalf as a
horse dad?
Jessica (27:28):
I would give him a 9.5.
I think that this is fantasticbecause he respects Shadowfax's
autonomy.
He knows that he is deigning tobe, you know, stabled because
they don't allow horses withinthe city.
I think Gandalf is reallycrushing it as horse dad.
Kritter (27:49):
Okay, we just need to see more to give him the full 10
.
We just don't have enough.
Yeah, just a little bit moreinformation, but I think um I I
really found it very endearingthat he asked pippa to check on
shadow facts I also, like youknow, because tolkien is really
good about really getting to themean potatoes of a story, right
(28:10):
, right, we get, we cover justso much that happens in these
stories and the books are notthat long right, and but the
fact that he took a minute to belike Gandalf's going to make
sure Shadowfax is taken care ofjust goes to show, I think, how
much he like, respects animalsand I don't know.
Jessica (28:27):
it just made me like Tolkien even more because he
didn't have to mention that atall.
But so I go back to the bill,the pony defense, like just all
of that.
Yeah, he took the time to writethat out.
Kritter (28:41):
That is so darling to me, like that's so excellent to
me anytime we we talk about andthe horses of rohan and yeah
it's all good stuff although,although I did, I think this
actually reminds me, and I gotreminded later reading this in a
different passage as well but Isaw, I think on TikTok or
(29:02):
somewhere, that there are infact more named horses in the
Lord of the Rings than there arewomen.
Jessica (29:11):
I believe that because I feel like there have been four
.
Kritter (29:15):
Five At least, and then we get more later.
Yeah, okay, and so, yeah, wedon't have many.
Oh women, yeah right, yes, yes,yes, we've got Eowyn Arwen
Galadriel.
Jessica (29:29):
Luthien.
Kritter (29:31):
Luthien who's not Luthien.
Luthien who's?
Jessica (29:32):
not Luthien.
Luthien is the girl.
Kritter (29:37):
Yeah, who is not in the story, but she's a named female
in the story.
Jessica (29:41):
Mm-hmm, I don't know of any Lobilia Sackville.
Kritter (29:46):
Baggins.
Yes, sorry, and I'm not sure ifthere are other women in the
list of relatives, it'srelatives.
So long since I thought of thesackville bagginses, I know,
well, sorry, I shouldn't havebrought them up, shouldn't have
brought it up.
Now I'm gonna be gritting myteeth.
I can't confirm that this istrue and, and I imagine like get
, because now that I'm thinkingof the fellowship where he has
that big long list of relativeswho get bequeathed things, part
(30:08):
of me is like they include thosepeople, or is it only people
that have, like, speaking parts,you know, not people who just
get mentioned, but like but,anyways, it doesn't matter.
Um, it does feel like thatcould be very true, though,
given the attention that horsesare paid, but it's a nice thing.
I wish there were more namedimportant women, but I do
(30:29):
appreciate that the horses getthe, you know, some respect
anyways.
Um, we meet baragond, soldierof gondor, and he's essentially
pippin's orientation leader.
They spend a pretty delightfulmorning together and then pippin
spends uh, the rest of the daywith baragond's Virgil.
(30:51):
Did you have any standoutmoments from this?
Jessica (30:55):
I thought they were.
I thought they were adorable.
Honestly, I thought that it wasgreat that he spotted him.
I thought that the way thatPippin played with Virgil was
adorable.
You know when he's oh, you havethe look of him and you know he
kind of.
You know Vir's oh, you have thelook of him and you know he
kind of.
You know virgil was kind ofblustery and and bravado with
(31:16):
him and and pippin answered inkind.
I thought that was really sweet.
Yeah, um, and he him talkingabout.
You know, there there'll behalfling warriors riding in with
the riders of rohan and how heregretfully had to dispel that
tale.
Just, I thought that it was anice little.
(31:38):
Um, I thought it was a nicelittle interlude, a great
positive experience for Pippinwith the folks of Minas Tirith.
Um, the, the father son act wassuper adorable.
Kritter (31:51):
Yeah, we definitely didn't get anything like that in
the movies, like that.
You know it was Pippin didn'thave a little jaunt on the town
with the town folk in the movie,so it was a fun little thing
that I had, truly completely.
Jessica (32:06):
You know, what it gave me honestly was Bard vibes.
So Bard, his son, you know whatI mean, and that's kind of what
that made me think of is okay,so we're gonna meet some regular
folk okay, yeah, that's true.
Um, so I will note that we gotanother nazgul not sighting, but
we heard the nazgul chillingit's only we're not gonna talk
(32:31):
it, because we're not going tocount it, because we said, you
know, winged shadow sightings.
Kritter (32:36):
Oh okay, Sightings, sightings, only Good to know.
And then in this conversation,I wanted to just put a little
pin in the fact that we foundout I'm not sure we heard this
before that Pippin is 28, nearly29, and that that wasn't yet of
age.
And I know that we knew that hewas the young one and he wasn't
(32:57):
fully of age, but I don't knowthat we had his actual age, A
number.
Jessica (33:01):
Yeah, I don't think we had a number either honestly.
Kritter (33:03):
So it's good to know.
Mm-hmm, we little lad 28,almost 29.
So after this day, Pippin, witha lonely gloom upon him, makes
his way back to his room withGandalf and falls asleep.
He wakes late in the night tofind Gandalf there.
Gandalf tells him to go back tosleep, that he will take him to
(33:24):
Denethor at sunrise, then notesthat they'll actually just wait
till he's summoned, because thedarkness has begun.
There will be no sunrise Notthe most hopeful end to a
chapter.
Any thoughts before we move on?
Jessica (33:41):
It's the first chapter of the book.
So we're starting out with like, oh okay, Soul crushing to
start Got it.
Kritter (33:48):
A little bit.
Yeah, yeah, so good to move onto the next chapter.
Any final thoughts?
Jessica (33:54):
I did have.
There was another, the shadowof doom.
There was another umami, Iwanted to share.
There's a couple of spots, sothis one's a little less.
I'm going to do the not so niceone and then the pretty one.
Okay, um, it's.
(34:15):
It's pippin talking.
No, who's talking to pippin?
I think it's baragond talkingto pippin, um, about the fact
that war is imminent.
And then he says here will thehammer stroke fall hardest, and
for that reason mithrandir camehither in such haste.
(34:37):
For if we fall, who shall standand master peregrine?
Do you see any hope that weshall stand?
And then the other one was justa little bit prettier.
Um, hope and memory shall livestill in some hidden valley
where the grass is green.
I do like that one.
Just little snippets that Ifound um, the only thing, the
(35:03):
only other thing.
Oh, I learned some newagricultural words.
As is my, as is my want.
Um, you know.
So tilts, um buyer, beer buyer,however you pronounce it, I
feel like I'm scrolling reallyfar.
(35:23):
There was a whole bunch of themthat was basically talking
about all the ways in which theyhave agriculture.
I was like I had to look upevery single one.
Of course I did, of course Idid.
Um, yeah, oh, and that thetower is 50 fathoms tall, so
that's like 60 feet, sorry, 300feet.
(35:46):
There we go.
That makes more sense 300 feet,so that's like 30 stories.
Kritter (35:52):
That's really really effing tall.
That's a football field, right.
Jessica (35:58):
Yes, that's 100 yards.
Kritter (36:00):
Okay, I was like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessica (36:03):
Pretty tall, Believe it or not.
I had to wait for my brain togo from vertical to horizontal
to be like yes, that tracks.
Kritter (36:12):
Yes, I believe that's true.
Jessica (36:14):
I am somebody who has to jump in the map, like Joey in
Friends.
I am that person.
Kritter (36:19):
Yeah, you cannot be blamed for that.
It makes sense.
Jessica (36:25):
So that's all I had for chapter one.
Kritter (36:28):
Okay.
Book five, chapter two, thePassing of the Grey Company.
We are now back with Merry,aragorn, gimli, legolas and
Theoden's escort, includingTheoden way, and they soon
(36:56):
encounter Halbarad Dunadan,ranger of the North, with 30
other rangers, and Elrond's sons, elrohir and Eladan.
The latter two have a messagefor Aragorn from their father.
The days are short.
If thou art in haste, rememberthe paths of the dead.
So I'm not going to lie withhow wise Elrond is.
I might just take this as amessage.
You should take the paths ofthe dead.
So I'm not gonna lie with howwise elrond is.
I might just take this as amessage.
You should take the paths ofthe dead and obey.
(37:18):
How would you have handled sucha message?
Jessica (37:22):
I agree, I think elrond has such street cred for me
after um, the council of elrond,much less whatever other kind
of history he he probablybecause Aragorn is old enough to
have had other dealings withhim.
Yeah, I'd probably take it onfaith.
Kritter (37:39):
It's like okay, yeah, I mean sure, if I'm in a hurry,
why would I not be?
Jessica (37:44):
Yeah, I was not expecting other rangers, so for
him to roll on up with 30rangers, I was like that's cool,
that's like having your ownspecial forces squad, right like
okay, yeah, that's gotta helpyeah, I mean, we've seen aragorn
yeah.
So even if they're only half ofaragorn, they're still bringing
(38:07):
something to the party for sureabsolutely worth more than just
one person.
Kritter (38:12):
Yes, without a doubt, which is mentioned, I believe,
by Théoden or one of his men.
So Halbarad also has a gift forAragorn from the Lady of
Rivendell.
She wrought it in secret andsent with it a message.
The days now are short.
Either our hope cometh or allhopes end.
(38:34):
Therefore, I send thee what Ihave made for thee.
Farewell, elfstone.
Sorry, that was it.
Aragorn told him to keep it forthe moment.
Did you have any thoughts onwhat it might be?
Did you have any thoughts aboutthe reveal that it was likely
galadriel that sent this aidtheir way?
Jessica (38:58):
I had no idea what it was, but I hooped it up I was
super excited when we were likeyes, uh, because lady galadriel
can do no wrong and so obviouslyshe was smart enough.
Once, once, um aragorn said Ididn't send the message I also
was like, well, who did?
(39:20):
And for a second I was like,yeah, is anybody suspicious of
this?
You know, maybe it's a, maybeit's a trick it's a trap trick.
Yeah, you know what Tolkien didthis to me.
All right, yeah, I'm suspiciousfor a reason, but I loved the
idea that it was Lady Galadrielbecause I already think that
(39:40):
she's preternaturallyintelligent and thinks of things
and knows things andcommunicates at a level that's
way beyond regular folk at alevel that's way beyond regular
folk.
Kritter (39:52):
Also, very much seems like she probably has long sight
, but like long sight, extremeright, cause she's got the pool
and all that.
Jessica (40:00):
It's level 10.
Kritter (40:01):
Yeah, way higher level than Denethor in the long sight.
At least I'm going to tellmyself that that she is far
superior in every way toDenethor, um, so Theoden takes
mary under his wing, getting hima I don't know what I meant to
write here a point and some gear.
(40:21):
Getting him something and somegear, um, and asking him to be
his esquire, which mary is supergrateful for, having felt very
much like unwanted baggage afterpippin's departure.
They spent some time togethertalking and eating, and mary
went so far as to say theodenwould be as a father to him.
So I found this really sweet.
(40:43):
What about you?
Jessica (40:45):
I thought it was very endearing and I think that it's
ironic um that they're eachswearing fealty almost at the
same time.
So I really liked the fact thatChapter 2 started off right
where Chapter 1 started off, sothat you know our gap was closer
.
I know that it doesn'tnecessarily mean that it will
(41:05):
stay that way, but I was kind ofrelieved when I saw that, was
kind of relieved when I saw that, um, and I just, yeah, I found
it very noteworthy that bothmary and pippin are having um
kind of parallel experiences.
Kritter (41:18):
Only, in my opinion, mary has a mary has a much
better benefactor yeah, Irealized that it a pony Pony.
Jessica (41:31):
Yes, he did get a pony, a good hill pony, no less yeah.
Kritter (41:37):
Yeah, I definitely think Mary is making out like a
band in here when it comes to, Idon't know, liege lords, there
you go, that's a good, andPippin not so much.
Not so much, unfortunately,unfortunately.
Um.
So I, I I must admit I didn'tactually look at the map to like
(41:57):
really get a concept of how allthese things are playing
together, but they go back tohelms deep and take a break and,
uh, I don't know how that likeworks out as far as like whether
they were heading away ortowards any relevant things.
But whatever, um aragorneventually decides, after much
deliberation and the use of thePalantir, to part ways with
Théoden's company.
(42:18):
He has decided to take the pathsof the dead.
Any thoughts about the exchangewith Théoden or Legolas and
Gimli about the matter?
Jessica (42:30):
I think that I liked seeing the what was said by the
seer, so they shared the whole.
Um prophecy, I guess, fromMalbeth um from the North.
Shall he come, need shall drivehim.
He shall pass the door to thepaths of the dead.
(42:51):
That whole I like that.
That.
That's fun lore, yeah, um, Ithought that it was very drastic
the way that he was describedlike he was physically changed
over the course of a night, um.
And so when he mentions usingthe palantir, I was like okay,
that makes sense, but also dangit, what are you doing?
(43:14):
And, uh, you know that wholeexchange happens on paper as
well, as people are like, well,gandalf told you you shouldn't
mess with it.
And his reply is essentiallywell, and I told gandalf, it's
actually mine and if I have thestrength and wherewithal to use
it, I'm going to wasn't itsomething like you forget with
whom you speak, or?
something I was like dang okayokay, it's exactly what he said.
(43:38):
You forget to whom you?
What do you fear that I shouldsay to him?
Did I not openly proclaim mytitle before the doors of Edoras
?
Uh, to obscure him somewhat?
And he knows that Sauron hasn'tforgotten Nilsildur and hasn't
(44:01):
forgotten the sword of Elendil,and you know, knows that he
revealed that it has beenreforged.
So, um, I think that it was abig gamble, but it got him the
information he needed, becauseimmediately after that he goes.
Well, I guess I have no choice.
It has to be the paths of thedead, you know.
So the fact that, uh, elrondtold him and then, when he was
(44:25):
looking in the palantir andseeing the doom that's coming
for everyone, um, you know, hereally felt like he had no
choice.
Kritter (44:34):
Yeah, that was this.
This was the way.
There was a couple of thingsfrom this.
Mary was feeling cast asideagain and missing Pippin even
more, which made me sad.
I think it's so sweet Wheneverlike either one of them is like
man.
I really wish I miss my buddyhere.
I know it's so, like it's real,it's so real.
And then I agree that Aragornusing the stone to make sauron
(44:58):
fearful was a bold move, butlike it seems like maybe it's
gonna pay off.
Uh, and then whenever, um,whenever the party not aragorn's
party, but like theoden's partyleaves with pippin and aomer,
aragorn says there go three thatI love, and the smallest, not
(45:20):
the least he knows not to whatend he rides.
Yet if he knew he would stillgo on.
I was just like he's soprecious it was so precious.
I love how, like everyone whoencounters the hobbits, can't
help but just love them andadmire them and respect them
because they do they leave suchan impression, which I think is
(45:41):
so great.
Um, okay, so aragorn's company,which I assume is what the, uh,
the gray company is?
Jessica (45:50):
I was probably three quarters of the way through the
chapter before I felt like thatwas confirmed.
Yeah, I kept thinking to myself.
I'm like so is that the graycompany?
Kritter (45:59):
I think it's them, I'm pretty sure it's these guys.
I think it's these guys socomplete with rangers gimley and
legolas, then rides for edorasand dunharrow, passing one night
under eowyn's roof beforemoving on.
While there, aragorn exchangessome tense words with eowyn
about his chosen path and herappointed duty to watch over her
(46:21):
people rather than riding tobattle.
A taste of her dissatisfactiongoes as follows all your words
are but to say you are a womanand your part is in the house.
But when men have died inbattle in honor, you have leave
to be burned in the house, forthe men will need it no more.
That one hit me pretty hard.
(46:43):
Stand out moments from theirlittle conversation.
Jessica (46:48):
That one hit me hard but at the same time I know this
is going to be very unpopular.
Aragorn, your path is not theone of valor or song, but no
less important.
Like someone has to make homesafe for those who can't go to
(47:08):
war, and it's not as glorious,but it's still a job that needs
doing.
There's more than one way tobring honor to your house.
I don't know.
I know that that's it's gettingmoved on.
Yeah, you know, and it's hardbecause it's such a fraught path
(47:28):
, because it's it could be seenas a way to make very gendered
roles more palatable, and that'snot really what I'm trying to
say, but I can see how someonewould hear it that way, and if
that's the case, then I'm sorry,but I do think that there's
(47:52):
honor in making sure that homeexists for those who can't go to
fight, that home exists forthose who can't go to fight, and
that if she left to be atrained shield maiden, as she is
and as her rights, I think thatit would be without honor if
she didn't leave someone equallyas capable as her to ensure the
(48:14):
wellbeing of those individuals.
I think that's probably mytakeaway.
I understand the frustration ahundred percent.
I absolutely agree that she isa trained shield maiden and she
should not be withheld from thebattle simply because she's a
woman.
I have no issue with thatwhatsoever.
What I have an issue with isyour duty needs to be done as
(48:37):
well, so if you go, who picks upthat duty?
Kritter (48:41):
The people still need a leader and you're the.
You know you were given thattask.
Were you given that taskbecause you were a woman?
Jessica (48:49):
Yeah, yes, and that is unfortunate.
I'm not disagreeing with thatat all.
But those people still requireleadership and someone to look
out for them.
And if you abandon them, howcan you, how can you say you
have honor if you leavevulnerable people without
leadership?
Kritter (49:10):
I flagged a little umami here, which is, I think,
almost word for word from themovies.
But Aragorn asks what do youfear, my lady?
And she replies to stay behindbars until use and old age
accept them and all chance ofdoing great deeds is gone beyond
recall and desire.
And I felt that honestly, likenow that I'm kind of rehashing
(49:34):
that conversation.
Um, I'm not going to spoilanything, but there's a
character in the wheel of timewho is a woman, who is a like
high up member of a verywell-to-do important house and
she leaves and, uh, she swearsto be, she's trying, she goes to
(49:56):
be a hero of the horn, right,she just wants something more
than like clerical, like noblelife.
She wants her life to be moreexciting than that.
And, honestly, there's a lot ofnow that I'm thinking of it
parallels between those two,just because it's, yeah, like
yeah, I think that's a greatanalogy.
Yeah, even if that's the thingthat you were like like born
(50:16):
into, you don't have to like it,you don't have to want it and
you could crave something more.
And yeah, I think my preferencewould have been she appoints,
she finds somebody else toappoint and gets to go, but is
there someone else that's ascapable?
Jessica (50:38):
And I don't want to undercut the heart of your
question, which really, to me,is like is it fair that, because
she's a woman, she got leftwith this duty?
No, I don't think that it'sfair.
However, there's still honor inthe task.
Kritter (50:53):
Absolutely Without a doubt.
I think that my final noteabout these conversations is
what happens the next morning,which I really, really didn't
like.
She literally fell on her kneesand begged aragorn to let her
join him as a last ditch effortand I was just like, uh, I don't
like no, I get that she was sodesperate, but I just didn't
love the look, but I didn't feelher pain, like I ached for her.
Jessica (51:21):
Cause she's a level of frustration, cause she's also
portrayed as a proud woman, soI'm sure it was no small thing
for her to throw herself andprostrate in that manner.
I, yeah, I'm completelysympathetic to her plight and
also, you know, having a handdealt to you that you don't want
.
Yeah, Also very sympathetic tothat plate.
(51:42):
But that doesn't mean you knowthere's still honor to be found,
there's still good to be done.
I hear you that's.
Kritter (51:53):
I always related to her so much because, like growing
up, you I'm from the midwest andthis is probably true in a lot
of places, but like there werejust things that they just
didn't want girls to do rightand so, like my family and like
some of my family friends everyyear would take the boys, like
the dads would take the boys onthis like overnight float trip,
(52:14):
and I was always like, oh my god, I want to get, like I would
love to go.
That sounds amazing outdooradventure, please like.
That is my middle name.
They never let me go because Iwas a girl and it just like, oh,
it literally just to this day.
Clearly I haven't forgotten andit was a long, long time ago.
Um, so I get it.
(52:34):
I'm that.
My bnao and man were like this.
I get it.
I get it.
My B&A-O and man were like this.
I get it, I get it.
I feel bad.
Okay, well, the Grey Company,as we're assuming they are, make
it to the door, to the Path ofthe Dead.
Gimli's blood runs chill and weget a little note that all
hearts quailed, save for that ofLegolas, for whom ghosts of men
(52:58):
have no terror.
I thought that was aninteresting note.
Did it get your attention atall?
Jessica (53:08):
It did.
I think it was a nice contrastto Gimli, who's talking like
quote pursued by a gropinghorror, pursued by a groping
horror, um.
So it was quite a contrast.
Uh, you know, and especiallyfor gimli, you know, almost
feels like a, um, not a fraud,but maybe like a failure, as a
dwarf to be scared of a cave, um.
Kritter (53:32):
So I did think that it was good contrast there that
gave us a little bit of humorand then otherwise very dark
situation.
What kind of a dwarf am I tohesitate going into a cave that
an elf would go into, orsomething along those lines?
Jessica (53:48):
I have a question to ask you.
Yeah, do you read this chapteras all of the rangers went, or
just the three named rangerswent to Elrond's sons and
halbrad?
Kritter (54:02):
I read it as they all went okay.
Yeah, did you read itdifferently?
Jessica (54:08):
no, I was unclear.
I, by the time I realized toask the question, I was most of
the way through the chapter andI was like I think they said all
the rangers went with them.
But yeah, which is differentthan the movie.
Kritter (54:17):
So it makes sense that you'd be like wait because they
didn't.
None all the rangers went withthem, but yeah, which is
different than the movie.
So it makes sense that you'd belike wait Because none of the
rangers went with them in themovies.
Jessica (54:24):
No, I don't remember meeting any other rangers in the
movies.
Kritter (54:29):
Yeah, okay.
Jessica (54:31):
Okay.
Kritter (54:33):
I think they did, but it's not like somebody who
stands out Well, and I whostands out?
Jessica (54:39):
I haven't rewatched Return of the King yet.
Kritter (54:42):
That's why I'm hesitating, because I feel like
I'm picturing somebody that I'mlike I'm pretty sure this is a
ranger, but I don't thinkthey're ever like extremely
explicit about who.
It is Right, and so it wouldmake sense that you, never
having read them, would have noconcept that that's a ranger.
If I recall, cut it If I recall, I think.
(55:03):
Anyways, I hate being wrong,but I'm pretty sure that's how
it went.
It's okay, all right.
So Legolas eventually notesthat the dead have begun
following the party, and Elidanreplies in the affirmative,
noting that they'd been summoned.
So I don't remember them beingsummoned.
What summoned them?
(55:23):
Do you think that felt?
Jessica (55:24):
that was what felt unclear to me so there was a
point earlier, when they firstgot to the big scary rock, the
aragorn, just kind of spoke intothe atmosphere oh was that
before this.
Kritter (55:39):
Okay, yes, that's on me , I must have.
When I was going back andoutlining, I must have missed
that, because no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because my literal
next well, maybe they, maybethere are multiple stones,
because literally the next thingmy outline is the party reaches
the stone of Eric and Aragorntakes a moment, yelling to
summon the dead to follow him,calling Halberd to unfurl the
(56:02):
banner, and then they continuedriding along the road.
Jessica (56:06):
So he calls for everyone to follow me at the
door, not the stone.
So that was my mistake.
Okay, I think the implicationis that he's talking to the
party.
Kritter (56:17):
That's yes, that's what I remember.
Jessica (56:19):
Okay, do, yes, that's what I remember.
Okay, do-do-do.
Drew.
Near, he saw Aragorn kneelingwhile Elodan held a lock both
towards him.
So before him were the bones.
So he says something over thebones.
So yes, this is it.
So he's standing over the bones, right, a mighty, mighty man.
(56:39):
He had been clad in mail andstill his harness lay there
whole, for the cavern's air wasdry as dust and his hopper was
gilded, etc.
Etc.
Aragon did not touch him, butafter gazing silently for a
while, he rose inside.
Hither shall the flowers ofsimple mind come.
Never unto world's end, hemurmured.
Nine mounds and seven there arenow green with grass through
(57:01):
all the long years.
He is laying at the door thathe could not unlock.
Whither does it lead?
Why would he pass?
None shall ever know, for thatis not my errand, he cried,
turning back and speaking to thewhispering darkness behind keep
your hordes and your secretshidden in the accursed years.
Speed only we ask.
Let us pass and then come.
(57:21):
I summon you to the stone oferic oh, you caught it.
Kritter (57:26):
Okay.
Well, I missed that completely.
Um, my mistake.
So they get to the stone oferic, having been followed, and
erorn summons them and callsthem.
He unfurls the banner, whichwas the gift I guess arwen had
crafted the the king's bannerfor aragorn um, and then they
(57:47):
continued along the road and thedead followed without further
ceremony.
And that ends the chapter.
Did that surprise you, how thatall went?
Jessica (57:57):
down.
It was intense.
It was not what I was expecting.
It was different than the movie.
The way that I remember themovie, I think that it was.
I think that it makes sensethat it was less climactic here,
because it's not the climax ofthe movie.
(58:18):
Does that make sense?
I always felt like it was aseparate climax, the way that it
was represented on screen.
And so here it's himmarshalling forces.
I did like the end of thischapter.
I was like so two chaptercloses in a row that were really
strong closes.
But the next day there came nodawn and the gray company passed
(58:41):
on into the darkness of thestorm of Mordor and were lost to
mortal sight.
But the dead followed them and Iwas like, yes, so I thought
that was a hell of a good way toend the chapter.
I'm like, okay, we're only twochapters in and we are bringing
(59:04):
the sauce the doom and gloom,the, the suspense, without a
doubt.
Kritter (59:10):
So do you have any further thoughts before we pick
an mvp?
Jessica (59:13):
oh god, uh, I did.
There was one little blip whereGimli mentions Caves of Wonder
below, mentions their game andthat he won it by a single orc
and that there are Caves ofWonder and do you think we'll
ever see it?
And Legolas is like essentiallyI told you, buddy, if we ever
(59:35):
see a day of peace, yes, we willcome back and we will see it.
So we get a little call back tothe bromance from before and I
honestly loved it.
So I thought it was great.
I think that was all I reallyhad from chapter two that we
didn't touch on.
Kritter (59:53):
Okay, yeah, all right.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (01:00:10):
That's so hard.
I think I have to go withAragorn.
He's making the hard calls.
He's taking the really sketchypaths because, based on the
information he has available tohim, that's what it's going to
take for him to be able to fightagainst the enemy.
(01:00:35):
So I'm going to give it up forAragorn.
Kritter (01:00:40):
That is fair.
This is tricky because we'vegot two POVs, like two separate
POV chapters, right.
So I have to like I think I'mgiving honorable mention to
Gandalf just because he truly istaking one for the team by
going and dealing with Deadathor.
But I agree with you thatAragorn made the hardest of
(01:01:04):
calls and is doing the mostdangerous of tasks, despite much
opposition, and it seems thathe is so far succeeding right.
Therefore, the dead isfollowing him, dead are
following him, which feels likea huge win.
And so, yeah, even thoughGandalf had to put up with that
(01:01:28):
old crotchety man, it's going tobe Aragorn for me too.
I agree, I think he takes it.
Jessica (01:01:35):
Gandalf was definitely a contender Because Denethor
does not seem easy to manage andI can understand that there's
value and weight to managingthat situation, but I feel like
Aragorn is the one who paid offin these chapters, so that's
ultimately how I got there.
Kritter (01:01:55):
Just another little as official as honorable mention,
but I do want to like call outtheoden for kind of taking mary
under his wing, because that wasreally sweet that was a sweet
moment, but obviously nothing asintense as aragorn.
So, yeah, okay, okay, same, allright, oh, let us let us know
(01:02:15):
in the comments or on discord um, as always, who your MVP is for
this episode.
I think there's at least acouple contenders for sure, and
we always love to hear what youthink.
Jessica (01:02:26):
Yeah.
So that's it for us for thisweek.
We would ask you all to readBook 5, chapters 3 through 5.
For next week, we would like tosay thank you so much for
joining us in episode one forseason four of but are there
dragons brought to you by yourhost, jessica Sadai, and critter
XD?
Don't forget to follow us atbut are there dragons on YouTube
(01:02:50):
, instagram and Tik TOK and?
But dragons pod?
Just one T on X.
You can also find us on socialmedia as Critter XD and Shelf
Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're going to continueworkshopping new catch freezes
through season four, so let usknow on social media how you
feel about this.
One.
Farewell, listeners.
(01:03:11):
Ride unto great renown.
Kritter (01:03:15):
Bye, renown Bye.
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