July 16, 2024 • 57 mins
Kritter and Jessica continue their journey through The Return of the King, embarking on Book 5, chapters 3-5. Join them as they discuss the parallel journeys of Merry and Pippin, hear their thoughts on Denethor, and spend some time picturing our beloved White Wizard cosplaying as a military leader.
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And I'm your host, jess, and we're continuing this
adventure with the Return of theKing by JRR Tolkien, with me as
the resident Lord of the Ringsveteran, and me as the Lord of
the King by JRR Tolkien, with meas the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And me as the Lord of the Rings first timer.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And this our second episode of season four.
We're going to discuss bookfive, chapters three through
five, Before we dive in.
Jessica, how are you feeling?
What's?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
new with you.
I'm good.
I'm excited we have WotConcoming right up and so I'm very
excited to see a bunch of confriends and not to take away
from the podcast.
Very excited to get into Returnof the King, start getting into
the meat of things, which Ifeel like we do this week.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
We, yeah, we definitely we're getting into
into it.
Things are starting to reallyramp up.
Uh feels good, I agree, watconbeing on the horizon.
By the time you are listeningor watching, dear listener or
watcher, it will have justhappened, um, but we are on the
eve of watcon and uh, it'spretty.
It's gonna be a good time, Ihope, as long as I can get my
cosplays together and stuff.
(01:22):
So I believe in you.
Time will tell.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
The manic laugh.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's fine, we'll be fine.
I mean, I have them alreadycreated.
The problem is, now that I amwith child, my dimensions are a
little different, so I'm goingto be tweaking them in the next
48 hours before I leave to tryand accommodate the changes.
It's going to be great.
(01:50):
Which is fine, it's going to beso good.
I do have a maternity shirt toreplace my normal shirt for my
Moraine cosplay, and it's goingto be amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I believe in you.
You're really good when therubber meets the road.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Thanks, yeah, the problem with me is I oftentimes
will just wait until I have todo something before I do it, and
then I'm pressed for time, youknow, and then it's like a, then
it's a race, it's a sprint butyou're a really good pressure
player Like very, very, verydangerous over short distances
yes, I said that to the dogyesterday.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Actually, I thought of you.
That's awesome.
Mini tangent coco decided toescape while we were doing yard
things.
Um, she took advantage of theweakness of a house guest who
doesn't know just how lethal shecan be over short distances,
and she squirted right out pastthe landscaper and the house
(02:51):
guest, and so, needless to say,mr Jessica and I were huffing
and puffing and blowing ourhouse down, trying to get her
back in.
We get her back in the house.
She's laying there, she'spantinging, but she's looking
very regal as she's just layingthere looking so pleased with
herself.
Uh and I couldn't help it.
Uh, somebody at the house guestmade a comment about uh, you
(03:15):
don't realize.
Or mr jessica made a commentabout you don't realize quite
how quick she is, and he saidyeah, for like the first 30
yards, and I'm like that's allshe needs, she's, she's a threat
over short distances, that'sjust all there is to it, she's
the gimli of dogs.
Yes, so anyway, that was mytangent I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
okay, well, excited for watcon, excited to get into
this chapter, so shall we?
Let's do it All right.
Book five, chapter three themuster of Rohan.
Now all roads were running tothe east to meet the coming of
war and the onset of the shadow.
And even as Pippin stood at thegreat gate of the city and saw
(03:57):
the prince of Dol Amroth ride inwith his banners, the king of
Rohan came down out of the hills.
So I'm sensing battle in ournear future.
Are you getting?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
that sense?
Yeah, absolutely.
You don't need to have seen themovies to realize that.
You know forces are amassingand I felt like that the Omami
started strong.
In this chapter I just a littleuh snippet of the vast waiting
silence that brooded behind allsound and I was like what?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I just got there with that one.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
He does ominous so well, and it's not always scary
or thriller like um, sometimesit's just like that and it's it
definitely sets a tone yeah,yeah, the tone has very well
been set.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Um, so we get a small moment with mary admitting to
himself that he loved the ideaof mountains marching on the
edge of stories from far away,but finding in the moment that
he was being borne down by theinsupportable weight of Middle
Earth, longing to shut out theimmensity in a quiet room by a
fire.
So this reminded me of Bilbo inthe Hobbit, always kind of like
(05:12):
looking back, wishing he washome, comfortable in the shire.
Did this make you feel any sortof way?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Exactly, exactly that .
Wait did I say.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Mary, I think I mean Pippin here.
No, it was Mary.
My notes is.
Mary was mary my nose.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, it was the same quote I, oh, okay um, because
it very much was verybilbo-esque to me that, um, and
I don't feel like mary andpippin were ever portrayed that
way to me before that they alsowere kind of like.
I think I'm done withadventuring, definitely hear it
about bilbo, can see it withFrodo and Samwise, so I wasn't
(05:48):
kind of expecting that vibe fromMary, but I feel like he's
earned it.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
At a certain point it's like I think we've I've
mentioned this since in aprevious episode and it might've
it was probably during theHobbit because of Bilbo.
But you know, you can go on thebest vacation in the world and
at a certain point you will hitthe wall where you want to go
home.
You know, yes, like that's justfacts, and so it's just another
relatable hobbit moment, Ithink for sure.
(06:14):
And this is not the bestvacation in the world, far from
it.
Um, so, yeah, it makes sense.
Um, so the party makes its wayup past the mustering army,
through switchbacks adorned withstatues of pukel men, and at
the top they're greeted by eowynwith what eomer deems foul
(06:36):
tidings about aragorn.
At dinner that night, maryinquired about the paths of the
dead and gets a bit of abackstory and a lot of doom and
gloom.
Did anything stand out to youfrom this whole paths of the
dead conversation?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
um, I thought that it was great that um mary had
pretty good perception here oneowyn being upset.
Uh, not that I would expectThéoden to necessarily pick up
on it, but I think of thehobbits as having sometimes not
(07:12):
always, but maybe as theiradventures continue, their
passive insight increases and Ifeel like this is one of those
moments where big, importantpeople can have conversations
with you without reallyperceiving you or seeing where
you're at.
Um, and that, as a bystander,he was able to kind of pick up
(07:34):
on, uh, just how upset she was.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, you gotta love the hobbits when they kind of
surprise you.
Marion Pippin definitelywouldn't be the ones you'd pick
out to be like the empathetictype and you know what.
That's obviously not fair,because they they are whenever
they need to be.
Yeah, um, so we get a messengerfrom gondor bearing a red
(07:59):
tipped arrow and asking for aid,which theoden immediately
agrees to give.
So this plays out differentlyin the movies a bit.
How did you feel about thechange, the difference, if you
even noticed it?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
so I didn't notice the difference.
Gonna just tell on myself there.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I don't remember how that was in the movie just just
there and saying where wasgondor when the Westfold fell?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Okay, so that does ring a bell.
Yes, I didn't know if that wasthis part.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I mean, I'm just generally remembering reluctance
on Theoden's part to helpGondor.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
overall, I think the thing that stood out to me about
this is Theoden kind of pushingback a little bit on the
messenger, saying isn't it truethat your master knows more than
he's saying?
Essentially that he realizesthat we're all amassed here and
that there is a threat and thatwe're already gearing up for
(08:56):
battle.
I'm paraphrasing heavily, but Ithink you was more the nuance
that stuck out to me that um,and kind of bolstered the
opinion that I've already formedabout Denethor from his
interactions with Gandalf isthat, you know, he's perceived
(09:17):
kind of in a cunning light andnot necessarily positively, um,
but he does know more that'sgoing on and this is a little
sly on his part, um, and that Ithink that also in this passage
is when theoden says that neverin my life has the red arrow uh
been used or been called right.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
so those were the things that stood out to me
about this interaction it's notnecessarily unprecedented,
because it's happened in thepast, but not in Right.
So those were the things thatstood seems to me almost like
he's just a little, I don't know, like the fact that he didn't
(10:09):
hesitate at all and he's like,obviously we're gonna go help
gondor to me, well, while still,you know, engaging with the
messenger and stuff, I was justlike nice, I like that, you know
, it would make sense toquestion and it would make sense
to wonder where were you whenwe needed you?
But that's the petty thing.
Right and granted, in themovies he did come and he did do
what needed doing, but at thesame time it was uh, it was kind
(10:30):
of a little refreshing to seehere in the book that he treated
it slightly differently somaybe you know, maybe he's like
a fair mirror light where he,you know, got a little bit of
not such a great treatment inthat adaptation versus straight
book theoden right, like in the,just an added a little drama,
you know, because where wasgondor when the westfold fell?
(10:52):
is a fun line.
Right, because yeah it isiconic it is iconic.
Why do I remember it if not forthat?
Um, so, yeah, it's.
Uh, it's nice to see theodonagain.
I just really like it as acharacter, and it's especially
whenever we're comparing himwith denethor, who we just met.
Oh gosh, it was not the mostpleasant person in the world.
(11:13):
Um, yeah, so mary goes to sleepbut is summoned again while
it's still dark.
Out turns out a great cloudfrom mordor has taken over the
sky and theodon says Turns out,a great cloud from Mordor has
taken over the sky.
And Théoden says so we come toit in the end, the great battle
of our time in which many thingsshall pass away.
He decides there's no time towaste and calls for the muster
(11:36):
to begin, but he released Merryfrom his service, intent on
leaving him behind.
Merry convinced him to let himride a little longer, eowyn
helped equip him with gear andthey were off In the army.
Mary shared a look with a youngrider with the face of one
without hope who goes in searchfor death.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Any thoughts as the muster rides out.
There was another quote thatwas in that place.
I had also written down thequote that you just shared, the,
I believe, from Théoden, whosays for it is before the walls
of Minas Tirith that the doom ofour time will be decided, and I
was like, wow, we, we, all,everybody gets the stakes
involved.
We're not holding back.
(12:21):
I did think that Théoden'scomment to Mary was a little
harsh None of my riders can bearyou as burden.
I felt very defensive on Mary'sbehalf Mary and Pippin
especially tend to feel likeburdens at different points and
(12:43):
that I just I got reallydefensive, like mama, bearish,
like no, don't talk about himlike that.
So I'm glad that he was able togo.
You know he rides with someonenamed Dernhelm and I have big
suspicions about who Dernhelm is.
But yeah, I'm glad that he gotto continue on for a little
(13:07):
while longer yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
So, speaking of dernhelm, I mentioned the party
halton edoras, uh, where theodenonce again tries to ditch mary,
albeit graciously, I think.
Um, in my opinion, maryeventually relents, but the
young writer who he saw with thelook of whatever impending
death, offers to let him ridewith them, hiding him at first
(13:30):
so no one would see.
When it becomes clear that Maryknows the writer's name, which
the writer seems almostsurprised about, he gives it,
and it's Sternhelm.
So you have your suspicions,probably, I assume, influenced
by the movies.
Absolutely, do you think if youhadn't seen the movies would
you have?
(13:50):
the same suspicions.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
You don't think?
No, I don't think that withoutthe visual cues.
So I tried to think about thatwhile I was reading this part.
I understand that it's moviebias and it's 40 years old,
right, because even in thecartoons, or you know the
cartoons or whatever, um, but somuch of that was based on
visual cue.
So, um, hearing the actor'svoice and seeing their face
(14:16):
through the helm really kind ofgave that away.
Um, and in writing, there areno cues about, um, the writer's
build per se, other than theyare smaller but still, uh, well
muscled and that's not the termused.
(14:36):
But essentially, yeah, somethinglike live, I can't remember
exactly what it was, but it wassomething like that so I mean
that content was there, but Iwas like, in and of itself, just
based on the reading, I wouldhave no idea who dirnhelm could
be um it is very uh, subtlyplaced yeah, I was gonna say
that exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I feel like the hints were subtle in the sense that,
like smaller, you know um,however, the build like a slider
, build, uh, at the, and themild surprise when he didn't
know their name and I was likeokay, why?
like he was definitely giving ushints, and I feel like in the
movies it's almost immediatelywhere she's like they're like
(15:18):
ride with me, and he's like uh,you know, my lady, so you.
It happens like immediatelybasically in the movies, whereas
here I feel like we're going togo wild before anything comes
up and I'm good with it, youknow.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I'm good with it being more subtle and not so
heavy handed.
I can't wait to see what thatlooks like and how that reveal
comes about.
You know, on the page, I'mexcited for it another.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
The other hint is that look that they shared,
right, because I want to say itwas aragorn earlier, or somebody
commented on this like the lookon her face, it's just like you
know she's cold, she's I don't,she just has no hope, right.
And so having that like reallyhaving that exact kind of
description here is, is prettytelling too, so pretty telling.
(16:10):
I'm, I'm, I'm sure as a kid Idid not pick up on it, but now
I'm like, oh, there's littlehints.
I know, I know that I'm lookingfor hints.
So here they are.
Uh, okay, so let me uh, well,never mind, I was just to say,
if you want to weigh in, dearlistener, slash watcher, if you
think this is too heavy handed,or if you think you wouldn't
(16:30):
have guessed if this was yourfirst time, had never seen the
movies, had never read the books, don't know who Durnhelm is,
would you be suspicious?
So let us know.
Or on Discord Okay, so thechapter ends with the party
departing rohan and traveling agreat distance.
Final thoughts before we moveon uh, just it really.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
It really feels like it's about to get epic and it's
about to get epic very soon.
So through this read I was like, wait minute, how long is this
part of the book?
So I went back and I was likewe're building towards a really
magnificent fight, clearly, eventhough I don't know what the
differences might be from bookto movie.
(17:16):
And I'm like, and we're only onchapter four.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I know I was surprised last time with the
fact that we ran into the pathsof the dead.
They're like you know, likewe're like yes, eric one's
already there, he's alreadyrecruiting the army.
Um, in the movies it's funnybecause you chop, they're all
chopped up and like interspersed, and so we get fredo and sam
and we get everybody, and ittakes much longer for that to
happen, but not in the books andI think that's probably my
(17:45):
biggest takeaway from a bookexperience versus movie
experience no real concept ofthe passage of time.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I feel like I've said that in every episode to one
extent or another, even back tothe Hobbit just the lack of
understanding of how much timethey spent traveling together or
how long it took to get to aplace, or how short you know
that 10 day and all of thatstuff, that entire book took
place in 10 days.
You know the time skew was real.
(18:12):
I feel as a as a movie consumeris all for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Um, okay, let's see.
Uh, so that was it for thechapter Amazing.
So book five, chapter four, theSiege of Gondor.
So that's quite the title.
We are back with Pippin andGandalf.
Pippin is summoned to Denethorand is appointed, as his esquire
mentions it might be nice tohear songs from a place
(18:46):
untroubled as gondor is, butnotes that their vigil, keeping
those lands safe while notfruitless, has been thankless.
So he strikes me as, dare I say, a bit of a jerk.
How are you feeling?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
about him the same.
So I go back to the insightcomment earlier and apply it to
pippin.
And I really like theseback-to-back mary pippin
chapters because it reallycontrasts um, the two major
human leaders in in the story,um, and I'm sure that's by
design, right, because tolkienwas far smarter than I am.
(19:20):
uh, so so Again, pippin's likehe feels very deeply
uncomfortable sharing any songsfrom the Shire, and I feel that
that level of discomfort is aform of insight, right, like
there is something amiss andDenethor's motives are not good.
Generally says things thatalways has an undertone of I'm
(19:50):
having one over on you or I'mactually saying something kind
of crappy about you, but youprobably don't get it.
Yeah, that is the vibe, thatthis whole interaction gave me
is I'm smarter than you and youdon't realize that I'm just kind
of crapping on you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, gross Jerk Bully.
We don't realize that I'm justkind of crapping on you a little
bit yeah gross jerk bully.
We don't like it.
No, like, okay.
So pippin gets clad in properlivery and lives out his first
day as an esquire and at theclose of the day sees the same
final glint of sunlight thatfrodo and sam had seen
highlighting the crown offlowers at the crossroads back
in the two towers.
So I appreciated this littlemoment of temporal calibration.
(20:32):
Did it help?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
you at all.
Yes, and I really liked thatterm because I didn't know how
to pew it, but it definitelylike an alignment.
Yeah, and I'm like, okay, herewe are.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Okay, that's how you go, like they've passed that
moment, we back, we've, we'vegone back in time with pippin
yeah it makes sense, it makes iteasier to follow, okay, so
pippin meets up with baragondand as they converse they are
struck dumb with fear hearing anazgul.
But it's not just one.
(21:04):
This time it's five, swoopingcloser and closer to the city
and they are in pursuit of fairamir, who finally made it to the
city, though again the nazgul,they're in pursuit.
So when things look especiallydire, gandalf shows up emanating
light and throwing a shaft oflight at one nazgul that sought
(21:25):
to challenge him, scaring themall away.
Thoughts on the sequence.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I thought it was incredible.
I think there probably issomething akin to it in the
movie, but I don't reallyremember it specifically, and
it's probably not in the contextof helping Faramir, but I'm not
100% sure.
So I do think that it speaksvolumes that Gandalf didn't
hesitate, right Like he wroteout on shadow facts, to make
(21:53):
sure that Faramir can make itback into the city.
I think that that speaksvolumes to Gandalf's perception
of Faramir and his importanceCause, again, like I've said,
might've been in book one,probably book two, um, about I
think, that gandalf hasperceptions on a higher level,
(22:14):
kind of like galadriel's livingat you know, 30 000 feet.
I feel like gandalf is probably, you know, 20 000 feet or
something, and so he is vibingwith the universe at a whole
different frequency, um, and sofor him to place that level of
import on faramir uh sayssomething to me as a reader,
like okay, all right yeah,because I do believe that
(22:36):
gandalf would save anybody thathe thought he could, uh, but I
do think that in these very diretimes that gandalf is having to
pick and choose where he'sspending his energy, he
definitely is.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I I noted that this feels this is about as magic-y
as lord of the rings gets, youknow, like a, like a bolt of
light that's.
You know it's giving sorcerer,I don't know.
And I.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I don't have it teed up, but it talks about you know
he is, he's shining, you knowwhat I mean?
Like he's not dampened hislight in any way.
He he rides out on shadow factslike a bright light.
Yeah, uh, so yeah, yeah, 100percent magic key, definitely
magic key.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's not the um in the hobbit right, the fireworks
in the cave where we're like,was that magic or was?
Were those just fire?
We're not sure at this time.
No, this is Gandalf.
The White True power Does magic, which is fun because I love
magic.
So yeah, speaking of Nazgulfive, when we saw them Five we
(23:41):
got a Nazgul sighting Justbecause there are five of them.
Oh, I didn't realize.
Okay, okay, we're not countingthe nazgul, we're counting the
number of sight incidences thatwe see any nazgul.
I think that's more reasonable.
Okay, it's gonna be a lot ofnazgul if we count them
(24:01):
individually, individually yeah,I think that that's setting
ourselves up for disappointmentokay.
Well, another nazgul sighting,then one for the record books.
So pippin describes faramir,because he makes it in as
follows here was one with an airof high nobility, such as
aragorn, at times revealed lesshigh perhaps, yet also less
(24:24):
incalculable and remote, one ofthe kings of men born into a
later time but touched with thewisdom and sadness of the elder
race.
So this, to me, felt exactlyright.
How did you feel about?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
it.
I loved it.
So it took the perspective ofsomebody that I legitimately,
just five minutes ago, talkedabout showing very good insight,
and applied it to a characterthat we've already met.
I left that interaction in thatprevious books, feeling like he
is as advertised.
He really is, you know, astandup dude and has very good
(25:00):
motives and is pure of heart,and this validates that for me
from a perspective that I tendto trust yeah, yeah it.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Uh, it validated me as well.
I love you know.
I like fell in love with thebook faramir last, last reads,
or you know last book, so it wasnice that uh, pippin had the
same experience, basically.
So Faramir reports to Denethorincluding the part about Frodo
and his goal to reach CirithUngol, though not mentioning the
(25:34):
ring.
This sets Gandalf into acalculating frenzy about where
Frodo would be and when.
So if I didn't know the story,I'd have half expected Gandalf
to ride out to go meet him.
You know right Because like, whyelse would you be like that?
Okay, where would he be?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
you know where would you see him?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
yeah, when did you see him?
Where was he?
So did you have the samethought, like gandalf's, about
to go ride for frodo?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
yeah, I mean not for nothing.
The first half of the seriesgandalf rides off a lot yeah,
true, just peace, I I gotta, Igotta ask half the time the
irish goodbyes his way throughit.
Anyways, you just turn aroundand be like dude.
We had a wizard.
Where'd he go?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
dang it down.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
One wizard yeah so yes, absolutely, and just the
frantic nature of him, uh, doingthe calculations to try and
figure out how far the ring hadgotten um, and also how intently
he's watching faramir to see ifhe mentions the ring.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's really watching it like okay, which?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
again it's very tense reading it.
It's very well written, um.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I feel like the tension definitely plays, even
as, from a reader perspective, Ithought it was very well done I
do wonder if I were Gandalf,you know, and granted, I
wouldn't, I don't know that itwould even be possible for him
to like catch up, right.
So maybe that's, maybe he madethe calculations and determined.
No, I can't.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I can't catch him, you know.
I mean, we don't know, we don'tknow what he was calculating.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
so that's what I mean .
Yeah, because, like, I feellike if he could have caught him
, like that's the number onepriority, I feel like he would
have, but maybe not, I don'tknow, I don't know.
What do you think?
Like wouldn't you have?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
if you were him, I think the temptation would be
there.
But I feel like even gandalfsaid like he can't help him
anymore, and I think in thischapter he talks about like the
enemy won't be defeated by thehand of man.
So yeah, you know, I think thathe knows that all of their
hopes ride on frodo and, byextension, sam yeah, but I can
(27:40):
definitely see the temptationsyeah, no, I can'm like.
How fast would it take Gwaihirto get there.
But I didn't even think of that.
I think I just took it as he'scalculating to see how far the
ring has traveled versus how farhe could get or how close he
could get to him.
But I think that's a.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
I took it and I was just like, yeah, I would be
surprised if that's what hischoice would have been, if he
could have made it so.
Faramir's tale sets Denethoroff and he accuses him of being
a wizard's pupil and failing tobring him a mighty gift.
He compares him unfavorably toBoromir, which brings Gandalf to
(28:23):
Faramir's defense, once againin a battle of words with
Denethor.
So did anything stand out toyou from this little exchange?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Um, what really stood out to me is that it it just
really highlights just howthreatened by Gandalf Denethor
feels.
Uh, so, all of this so beforeit was just contentious, the
comments like wizards, peopleare under your spell, and all of
these things make it very clearthat Denethor is just strictly
(28:55):
treating Gandalf as a threat, sonot only just a strong
personality that you clash with.
He clearly feels verythreatened by him, very
threatened by him.
And I I don't.
I'm like I don't want to makeit seem like I'm participating
in Boromir bashing, but I lovethe fact that Gandalf was like,
if Boromir had gotten it, itstill wouldn't have made it to
(29:17):
you.
You know, our Boromir bashingdays are over.
Rip, RIP.
He did what he could, bro, butI do.
I like the fact that he notonly defended Faramir but told
Denethor very plainly that evenif Boromir had gotten the ring,
it never would have made it toyou.
(29:37):
And even if it had made it toyou, I don't trust you with it
either.
You could have it sitting undera mountain and it could still
turn you.
So I thought I that's about asplain and direct as gandalf gets
, and I dug it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I was here for it yeah, I guess if we're sitting
here with a total denethor bag,then we have to treat him, you
know, with the same amount of Idon't know lack of decorum that
he treats everybody else.
I guess it made me so mad theway he treated Faramir it just
ugh.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I wrote.
I was like that depends on themanner of your return.
And I wrote next to it sets myteeth on edge, yeah, and he
calls Frodo a witless halfling.
I got all puffed up, I was like.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
What Excuse me?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Like Frodo was an elf friend.
Okay, we do not talk about ourdarling boy like that yeah, yeah
, this man is learned, he knowsstuff.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Okay, um, all right.
So when denethor dismisseseveryone and pippin and gandalf
return to their room, pippinasks gandalf about frodo, and
Gandalf expresses extreme worry,though the fact that Gollum was
with them didn't seem tosurprise him much.
In fact, he suggested, despitelikely intended treachery,
gollum might inadvertently helpthem.
(30:59):
Given what we know happened, doyou think Gandalf's prediction
panned out in that wayinadvertently helping them?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I do.
I know that we are currently upagainst a wall, with Frodo on
one side and our boy Samwise onthe other, but I do choose to
believe that Golluminadvertently helped them.
You know, not that it wasn'twithout peril or danger, but in
his own way Gollum accidentallyhelped them get through a very
(31:33):
tough place.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, he got them essentially into Mordor one way
or the other, I guess.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
We just got to get Sam through the door now.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, true, I also noted that.
Uh, gandalf guessed thataragorn had revealed himself to
sauron right when he's doing allof his like calculations and
everything trying to figure outexactly how the board is being
placed.
He's, he's just like I don'tknow why sauron's doing what
he's doing and then he juststarts kind of like
extrapolating.
He's like you know what?
(32:04):
Something must have happened.
Oh, I bet aragorn lookedrevealed himself and I was just
like man, this guy in theinsight.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, so to me that was like long sight, and he
showed his math you know likethat's how I perceive that that
he is so in tune with what'sgoing on again at a higher level
.
He's like what would force hishand and is able to intuit that
based on you know, knowing allthe pieces well enough yeah, I
(32:32):
think that's really goodstorytelling on tolkien's part
too, to choose like these povsright.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
So you've got pip in one place, mary in another place
and they're witnessing all ofthese super important things
happening with these like superimportant people.
Not that they're not important,but if it were just gandalf,
for example, in minas tirith andhe's fighting with denethor,
you could get that scene rightin some way because they're
saying words out loud.
But if pippin wasn't there withgandalf in this conversation,
(32:59):
we would probably have nevergotten gandalf's inner model.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You wouldn't have to explain it to anybody.
Explain it, it'd just beexplain it.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
It'd just be going on in here, but instead he's kind
of explaining it out loud.
Granted, he might be talkinglike me, he might be probably
talking out loud to himself, butit would have read weirder, I
think, if Tolkien was like okay,gandalf's in a room by himself
and he's saying these things.
So I think it worked outstory-wise to have him kind of
go through all of this aroundeither Denethor or Pippin.
(33:27):
And yeah, mad respect toGandalf because he's just
putting things togetherbasically and putting Denethor
in his place as he should.
So Makes me so mad.
Speaking of the next morning.
Denethor sent Faramir on afool's errand to guard the river
in Osgiliath and Faramir wenthoping that Denethor would think
better of him if he returned.
(33:49):
So I keep coming back to this.
I keep coming back to it Nowthat he's done that.
I really dislike Denethor.
How would you rate him on ascale of 1 to 10?
As far as good person?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Negative garbage.
I don't know.
I really have have distaste forhim.
The way he's portrayed in themovies and based on the book, it
was well deserved.
Um, if anything, the additionalcontext just makes him more, uh
, dislikable.
Um, it's just a little bit morerooted or grounded in um his
(34:27):
character.
I feel like there's a lot ofcontext that's added here that
helps me understand why he isthe way he is, but it does not
take away from how trulydislikable he is.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, I feel like all the context here does make him
more substantial as a character,because in the movie he's very
much just like this guy lovesboromir, he hates faramir, he's
a bad dad right, but it's notgrounded in anything.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And john noble I love john noble as an actor and I
thought he did an incredible jobportraying and sometimes it's
more fun you know, as a theaterkid dropout like it's more fun
sometimes to play the not sonice characters um so it's not a
knock on his performance by anymeans, but no.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
This context explains to me what it's rooted in and
I'm sure that that was subtextfor the actor, but knowing it
now I'm like oh, he really kindof is despicable yeah, and the
thing about it like knowing thathe's not only just like mean,
but he's super intelligent,right, kind of magical.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
And arrogant.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, and that kind of lends itself to his arrogance
and his disputes with Gandalf,which I think are definitely
more substantial in the bookthan they were in the movies.
Right, those were very shortand these are like a little more
drawn out and intense.
Um, so yeah, I'm enjoying ifthat's the word learning and
(35:53):
experiencing more of denethor,if for no other reason than that
he just feels like a much morefleshed out character and much,
much easier character to trulyhate.
Yeah, I don't know, that'swhere I'm at, so yeah.
So the next day, news came ofthe inevitable.
The enemy won the passage ofAnduin of the Anduin and Faramir
was struggling.
(36:13):
Gandalf left to help and cameback heralding the entrance of
the king of Angmar, lord of theNazgul, captain of despair, to
the fray, thus far commandingfrom the rear.
Not by the hand of the sorry,sorry, not by the hand of man
shall he fall.
So it is said, this feels likeit once again upped the ante a
(36:35):
little bit.
The stakes are getting higher.
How did it hit for you?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
uh, definitely so again, it's been so long.
I don't remember a standoffwith like a primary Nazgul and
Gandalf, so I was all for thislike a one-on-one showdown.
So bring it on.
And Gandalf does not disappoint, right Like he goes in very OP
(37:01):
and to your point, there is nowhiz, bangs or anything like
this is truly magical, powerfulwizard in his prime.
So I really I dug it, uh, and Ilike the fact.
Um, you know, the chapter tellsus that gandalf essentially
(37:23):
takes control or takes ownershipof the last defense of Gondor.
Mm-hmm, you know, becausenobody's, really nobody's
manning the wheel, so to speak.
Mm-hmm, so Gandalf's like Idon't know, we're still fighting
over here.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Right.
So Faramir's men wereultimately forced into a full
retreat, were almost completelyrouted, if not for a sortie that
Denethor allowed to ride outalongside Gandalf in all of his
glowing glory again.
But it wasn't enough to saveFaramir from being darted by one
of the Southron men and fallingto be carried in seemingly
(38:04):
lifeless by the Prince of DolAmroth.
Carried in seemingly lifelessby the Prince of Dol Amroth.
Seeing Faramir, denethorretreated into his tower and
those who looked upon it sawflickering lights in the windows
.
And when he came back his facewas gray, death-like.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
What did you make of all of that?
So when I read first looking upin the tower and they see the
pale light and gleamed andflickered, I made a note that
said, what are you up to?
And then it was said he wasgray and more death-like, I was
like does he have a Palantirhidden up there?
Because oh, the signs aresigning a little bit in that
(38:47):
direction you know, when aragorndid the thing with the palantir
, he was very transformed and helooked very gray and death-like
, as I recall.
So that's my prediction.
Um, I definitely made note ofit.
Um, so we'll see if that comesto pass.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
So, finally, the city was besieged, sea ginsens were
brought and used to catapultflames and, eventually, the
heads of those who felldefending us Gilead over the
walls.
This was dark.
Did the darkness surprise you?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Um, no, but I think that if I had read it as a kid I
would be a little bit morestartled.
Um, yeah, knowing what I knowabout the author and seeing how
he's treated war to this point,he doesn't really pull a lot of
punches.
Yeah, um, you know, and war isbrutal.
So, uh, I, I did write, yikes,you know, I was like, but this
(39:51):
is not ever, uh, billed as akid's story.
True, you know?
True, so it's, it's moreintense and it's expected.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
So as for the siege, uh, I wrote down a little bit of
literary umami here.
Um, for yet another weapon.
Swifter than hunger, the lordof the dark tower had dread and
despair.
I don't always pick up the, uh,the darker umamis, but that was
like okay, it's getting dark,it's getting scary.
It's getting dark, it's gettingscary, it's getting dire.
(40:27):
So Denethor, like many in thecity, seemed to be in a state of
extreme despair and gave ruleof the city over to Gandalf, as
you mentioned, and he stayed atFaramir's bedside.
That's something I didn'texpect, but definitely felt like
the right call Does Great.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
General Gandalf seem appropriate to you.
Uh, not necessarily greatgeneral, but uh, somebody who
has proven over and over againthat he's got greater insight to
the bigger chess board, uh,does seem to be a good fit okay,
yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I don't always think of gandalf as a military leader,
but you know what he can.
He can do it all.
It turns out, denethor isn'texactly comforting the men who
try to report to him either,ultimately deciding that the
West had failed and he andFaramir should go to a pyre to
burn like heathen kings.
He tries to release Pippin, butPippin pushes back, following
(41:23):
him on his funeral march andthen leaving to find Gandalf,
bids the servants to drag theirfeet while preparing the pyre
and, upon meeting Baragond, toldhim about the situation and
asked for his help too.
Not bad for a little hobbit,huh.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yes, I was very proud of him when he wrote when
Denethor is saying I will go tomy pyre, I wrote what in the
unhinged steward are we doingright now?
Like, what are we like?
Oh, okay, so, and I remember itsomewhat from the movie, but I
kind of remember it as him justburning Faramir.
(42:00):
I don't know that I got that hewas going to die too or
sacrifice himself.
I didn't really get that.
So I was glad.
Honestly, I was like if, if, wehave just Pippin there singing
a song.
I was just relieved that Pippinwas going to like get help and
(42:22):
go no, no, no, delay, delay,delay.
Right Man's banana chips, I'llbe back, I'm going for help.
I was like, yes, that is theright answer.
Don't get me wrong.
The song was beautiful and Ilove the song, but when you got
somebody who's crazy and settingthings on fire, you go get help
crazy and setting things onfire, you go get help.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, and I think that was like.
You know pippin, having seenwhat he saw in faramir, probably
inspired that more.
Also, you know, obviously, ifhe's gonna see somebody who's
still alive get burned to death,it makes sense that you would
try to save them.
But I have a feeling that youknow pippin recognized that
gandalf really respected faramirand that faramir was an
important person to this wholeordeal and that Denethor was
just going to give up withouthim actually having died yet.
(43:09):
Pippin was like, oh no, it's upto me which I think was great
Good for him to really take thereins.
So ultimately, in the end, ahuge ram, gr Grand, advanced on
the gate and ultimately overtookit.
The lord of the Nazgul enteredthe city and all fled, save one,
(43:30):
gandalf, who bid him to go backto the abyss, and nothingness
prepared for him.
But as the wish king replied,something else could be heard
Great horns of the north wildlyblowing.
Rohan had come at last.
What a way to end the chapter.
Just reading that gave megoosebumps, like thoughts
highlights.
(43:50):
I don't know that I love that.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So rohan had come at last.
I had that's my last bullet andI was like that's good, because
the last couple of chaptersevery chapter so far in this
book has ended very strong.
But this was strong and alsopositive, so I was like cool
beans, we stretched the tone upa little bit.
I'm into it, let's go.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, it was.
I don't know, rohan had come atlast.
I don't know, it felt good.
It felt good, I still got thegoosebumps.
They're persisting.
Okay, so good, I still got thegoosebumps, they're persisting.
Um, okay, so is that is itchapter four?
no, we already did chapter four,book that was chapter that was
chapter four, book five, chapterfive, the ride of the roherum.
(44:34):
So we are back with mary, whoreally misses pippin, so much in
fact that he wishes he was atall writer like aomer who could
just blow a horn and gogalloping to Pippin, so much in
fact that he wishes he was atall rider like Eomer who could
just blow a horn and gogalloping to Pippin's rescue.
So I thought that was rathergallant of Mary.
How do you feel about it?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I love them.
So it's a lesser bromance it'snot, as we don't spend as much
time on it as we do with Sam orFrodo or with even Legolas and
Gimli, but I love that.
I love that kinship, I lovethat one of them will find
themselves wondering how theother is doing.
And here we are, and he wantsto ride off and save his friend.
(45:15):
And I'm just like, I love youguys.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
So sweet.
Hobbits are so loyal, like mylord lord, they're just the best
.
I don't know they're tough tobeat um.
So this was a random littleaddition to the books that
weren't not, was not.
In the movies we meet the wildmen of the woods, yeah, who came
to assist theoden, offeringscouting services and to guide
(45:43):
the army through forgotten roads.
So I had completely forgottenabout this from the books, did
it, I assume, surprise youtotally, totally, and I like the
way that they are described.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Uh, my bullet says the wild men are pretty cool.
Uh, horny brow.
Their language is a little bitdifferent, you know, they're
reclusive.
The part that stood out to meis that they're making this deal
with Théoden.
Théoden clearly knows how tocommunicate with them, which
(46:16):
that's a great little piece ofknowledge to have.
It's great.
And they're doing it basicallybecause they don't want them to
hunt them like beasts anymore.
I flag that as well.
I was like, oh, was that athing you guys were doing?
Cause, like, these guys don'tseem like they're doing anything
(46:38):
.
If anything, they're helpingyou just to rid their lands of
works, which is another thingthat stood out to me that these,
uh, much like the ants and theum, the wild trees, didn't like
orcs.
The wild men don't like orcseither, and so they refuse to
fight for them, but they'rewilling to show them a new way.
(47:00):
Um, so, yeah, I think that Iloved that because I've never
heard of the wild men before, soit's brand new, fresh content.
No, um, no movie bias there.
But also I was like, oh, didyou guys really do you hunt?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
for you.
Is that the thing you weredoing?
That a thing kind of terrible?
Um, yeah, but you know, I guessmen generally aren't always
known for their understandingand mercy when it comes to
people who are different thanthem, right?
So this is realistic to say theleast.
(47:35):
Unfortunately, you would hopethat the men of Rohan would be
better than that, but I guessperhaps not that the men of
Rohan would be better than that,but I guess perhaps not.
So the wild men of the woodsguide them, they take them on
these secret paths, trying tobasically save time, because I
didn't mention this, butbasically they are behind, they
are worried they're not going tomake it in time to Gondor, and
(47:57):
so this was just kind of anextreme boon for these guys to
show up and offer them ashortcut, essentially.
So, after guiding them, thewild men vanished into the
glooms, never to be seen byriders of Rohan again, which I
took as good.
That means they're not huntingthem anymore, right?
Like, yeah, that's how you read.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
That's how I chose to take it as well.
I want to believe that you'renot going to hunt people who
actively aided you Right.
Right, I would like to thinkthat we're not hunting anybody
who's not actively harming youtoo, but I'll settle for.
Yeah we made a deal so let'sleave him alone.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Uh guys, all right.
So theoden's company, make itto the battle and we get some
sick battle speeches fromtheoden too in fact, and I would
like you to rate them okay.
So I don't know what the scaleis gonna to be Like.
You create the scale andthere's going to be two, so this
(49:03):
is the first one.
Now is the hour come.
Riders of the mark, sons ofEorl Bows, and fire are before
you and your homes far behind.
Yet, though you fight upon analien field, the glory that you
reap there shall be your ownforever.
Shall be your own forever oathsye have taken.
(49:26):
Now fulfill them all to lordand land and league of
friendship.
I might have done that wrong,but yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
That's what it is league of friendship.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah, great, great to lord and land and league of
friendship.
That's excerpt one.
Yeah, I think we'll do one.
I have to rate and then youthink we'll do one at a time.
Do I have to rate and then youread We'll do one at a time.
I want you to, I want you don't.
You don't have to rate themlike one, like best and worst.
You can do, like, on a scale ofone to five, on a scale of, you
(49:52):
know, underwhelming tooverwhelming, whatever you want
to do it's.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
it's your choice I'm gonna call that one a big fat
four a big fat four.
Okay, um, you know what?
I'll even give it a 4.5 out of5 because it is, it is
inspirational, af it is.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
I was moved they haven't popping off he is um he
is.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
He knows how to talk to his men.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
So 4.5.
So, after looking upon theagony of Minas Tirith and
briefly quailing, morning cameand light flashed in the city
and Theoden's strength wasreturned.
He straightened and cried outin a loud voice, more clear than
any there had ever heard amortal man achieve before.
Here it is ever heard of mortalman achieved before, here it is
(50:47):
arise, arise.
Riders of phaedon fell, deeds,awake.
Fire and slaughter spear shallbe shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword day, a red day.
Air, the sun rises.
Ride now, ride now, ride togondor.
That was that one and that's myfive yeah, okay, I feel like he
(51:08):
does ramp it up and honestly Ifeel like such a dweeb because I
can't.
I can never do it as good asthe actor in the movies and he's
he, just he was so rip bernardI know rip um, he was amazing,
he was amazing and the fact thatthat was like straight out of
the books too, like no need foredits, really it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
So because I recognized a sword day, a red
day, I was like, oh, I'm prettysure this made it in.
Um, so I will say that thegreat boom and flash of light
that happened before he gavethis speech dork that I am, I
was like this feels a lot likeD&D inspiration, because it
really looked like perked him upand made him very inspirational
(51:54):
.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, yeah.
I just love Théoden Book,théoden slays Movie Théoden as
well, because this showed up inthe movies and he did it way
better than I could have.
Um, okay, so this chapter endswith a noble and terrifying
charge by theoden and his menwith a battle song on their lips
(52:17):
.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
thoughts before we pick an mvp the host of rohan
burst into song as they slew.
I had very mixed feelings aboutthat, but you know they were
also inspired and they werebeing carried into, so I gave
them a pass.
But it was a very weird thingto read.
(52:38):
I was like, oh, being marriedwhile you kill is a definite
vibe yeah, it's its own thing.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
I just got this like.
I got this impression that theywere just like swole, I don't
know, the the battle, not battlerage, but just like they were
just overwhelmed by the fervor,exactly Like the fact that
Théoden was like apparently notan old man anymore, but like a
(53:08):
glowing beacon of valor andthey're all around him and
they're they're pushing backthis army that was winning five
seconds ago.
And everyone's feeling likewe're doing something and we're
like fighting evil, especiallybecause, like I would get it if
it was like you know, onecountry fighting another.
It's like, oh I mean, why arethey fine?
(53:30):
We're not sure this is evil,like they're going up against
evil.
So I didn't pause for a second.
I was like, yeah, you singwhile you slay those bad guys.
Get in there.
It's fine with that, not aproblem.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
So, uh, that's all I had because, as you pointed out,
it was a very short chapter.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
It was, it was okay.
So, uh, we've got a traditionwhere we pick an mvp from the
chapters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music jessica, whowould you name as your MVP this
episode?
Speaker 1 (54:03):
I went back and forth a lot um on this read because
we saw some really critical uhchoices being made.
I think I'm gonna give it upfor Theoden okay, is that who
you wrote down?
That is is who I wrote down Iam sticking with it.
I was like, is that just becausehe was, you know, chapter five?
(54:25):
But there was a lot that led upto that as well.
So, yeah, I mean I feel asthough there were several very
good choices in this read.
So you know, if the listeners,slash discorders, slash watchers
want to shoot me down with abetter option, I'll take it.
(54:46):
Um, but ultimately I'm gonna gowith bayadin okay, he is my
runner up.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Uh, he is.
He is my runner up because,like dang, he was, he was
spitting rhymes, like he was soinspirational this, this, uh, I
guess this last chapter, butthen also in his other chapter
he was.
He had an amazing quote inthere as well.
Um, the fact that he just likepopped off at this battle and
just became this amazingfighting warrior being just so
(55:17):
impressive.
Um, so, yeah, big mad respectfor theoden in this chapter, but
I also have mad respect forgandalf and I think that's who
I'm gonna pick.
Um, I, I also want to give ashout out to pippin because of
his quick thinking when it comesto faramir.
This was a tough, tough, toughchapter for mvp.
Um, but without gandalf,faramir 100% would have died.
(55:43):
So he did his magic thing.
He saved Faramir as he wasriding into the city and then he
went back out and helped himfight again.
He backed him up with Denethor,he became the general
(56:04):
essentially for the entiredefense of metastirith, and
whenever the lord of the nazgulshowed up, he stood his ground.
And so all of those things tome were like, yeah, I think, on
a scale of epicness, the andolfto me won mvp yeah, I went back
and forth between those two.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
specifically, I also heavily considered Pippin.
Ultimately, for me, it justfelt like this portion of the
read was Theoden's moment.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
He was a close second for me for sure, so I'm glad
you picked him Because it mademe picking Gandalf hurt a little
less.
At least he got props.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Yeah, because it made me picking gandalf hurt a
little less yeah, it made.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
It made my gandalf pick hurt a little bit less,
yeah, okay.
So we are reading for next week, book five, chapters six
through eight.
Not quite as long of a read, um, on that one as we've had for
the last two episodes, so easytime to catch up if you're
behind um.
And we just wanted to say thankyou so much for tuning into our
(57:04):
second episode of season fourof but are there dragons brought
to you by your hosts, jessicasadai and me, critter xd?
Don't forget to follow us atbut are there dragons on youtube
, instagram and tiktok?
And but dragons pod?
Just one, t on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
(57:25):
Shelf Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 4, so
let us know on social media howyou feel about this one.
Once again, we thank you,listeners of the pod.
Good fortune, go with you foryour support and friendship.
Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And I'm your host, jess, and we're continuing this
adventure with the Return of theKing by JRR Tolkien, with me as
the resident Lord of the Ringsveteran, and me as the Lord of
the King by JRR Tolkien, with meas the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And me as the Lord of the Rings first timer.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And this our second episode of season four.
We're going to discuss bookfive, chapters three through
five, Before we dive in.
Jessica, how are you feeling?
What's?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
new with you.
I'm good.
I'm excited we have WotConcoming right up and so I'm very
excited to see a bunch of confriends and not to take away
from the podcast.
Very excited to get into Returnof the King, start getting into
the meat of things, which Ifeel like we do this week.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
We, yeah, we definitely we're getting into
into it.
Things are starting to reallyramp up.
Uh feels good, I agree, watconbeing on the horizon.
By the time you are listeningor watching, dear listener or
watcher, it will have justhappened, um, but we are on the
eve of watcon and uh, it'spretty.
It's gonna be a good time, Ihope, as long as I can get my
cosplays together and stuff.
(01:22):
So I believe in you.
Time will tell.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
The manic laugh.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's fine, we'll be fine.
I mean, I have them alreadycreated.
The problem is, now that I amwith child, my dimensions are a
little different, so I'm goingto be tweaking them in the next
48 hours before I leave to tryand accommodate the changes.
It's going to be great.
(01:50):
Which is fine, it's going to beso good.
I do have a maternity shirt toreplace my normal shirt for my
Moraine cosplay, and it's goingto be amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I believe in you.
You're really good when therubber meets the road.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Thanks, yeah, the problem with me is I oftentimes
will just wait until I have todo something before I do it, and
then I'm pressed for time, youknow, and then it's like a, then
it's a race, it's a sprint butyou're a really good pressure
player Like very, very, verydangerous over short distances
yes, I said that to the dogyesterday.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Actually, I thought of you.
That's awesome.
Mini tangent coco decided toescape while we were doing yard
things.
Um, she took advantage of theweakness of a house guest who
doesn't know just how lethal shecan be over short distances,
and she squirted right out pastthe landscaper and the house
(02:51):
guest, and so, needless to say,mr Jessica and I were huffing
and puffing and blowing ourhouse down, trying to get her
back in.
We get her back in the house.
She's laying there, she'spantinging, but she's looking
very regal as she's just layingthere looking so pleased with
herself.
Uh and I couldn't help it.
Uh, somebody at the house guestmade a comment about uh, you
(03:15):
don't realize.
Or mr jessica made a commentabout you don't realize quite
how quick she is, and he saidyeah, for like the first 30
yards, and I'm like that's allshe needs, she's, she's a threat
over short distances, that'sjust all there is to it, she's
the gimli of dogs.
Yes, so anyway, that was mytangent I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
okay, well, excited for watcon, excited to get into
this chapter, so shall we?
Let's do it All right.
Book five, chapter three themuster of Rohan.
Now all roads were running tothe east to meet the coming of
war and the onset of the shadow.
And even as Pippin stood at thegreat gate of the city and saw
(03:57):
the prince of Dol Amroth ride inwith his banners, the king of
Rohan came down out of the hills.
So I'm sensing battle in ournear future.
Are you getting?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
that sense?
Yeah, absolutely.
You don't need to have seen themovies to realize that.
You know forces are amassingand I felt like that the Omami
started strong.
In this chapter I just a littleuh snippet of the vast waiting
silence that brooded behind allsound and I was like what?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I just got there with that one.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
He does ominous so well, and it's not always scary
or thriller like um, sometimesit's just like that and it's it
definitely sets a tone yeah,yeah, the tone has very well
been set.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Um, so we get a small moment with mary admitting to
himself that he loved the ideaof mountains marching on the
edge of stories from far away,but finding in the moment that
he was being borne down by theinsupportable weight of Middle
Earth, longing to shut out theimmensity in a quiet room by a
fire.
So this reminded me of Bilbo inthe Hobbit, always kind of like
(05:12):
looking back, wishing he washome, comfortable in the shire.
Did this make you feel any sortof way?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Exactly, exactly that .
Wait did I say.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Mary, I think I mean Pippin here.
No, it was Mary.
My notes is.
Mary was mary my nose.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, it was the same quote I, oh, okay um, because
it very much was verybilbo-esque to me that, um, and
I don't feel like mary andpippin were ever portrayed that
way to me before that they alsowere kind of like.
I think I'm done withadventuring, definitely hear it
about bilbo, can see it withFrodo and Samwise, so I wasn't
(05:48):
kind of expecting that vibe fromMary, but I feel like he's
earned it.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
At a certain point it's like I think we've I've
mentioned this since in aprevious episode and it might've
it was probably during theHobbit because of Bilbo.
But you know, you can go on thebest vacation in the world and
at a certain point you will hitthe wall where you want to go
home.
You know, yes, like that's justfacts, and so it's just another
relatable hobbit moment, Ithink for sure.
(06:14):
And this is not the bestvacation in the world, far from
it.
Um, so, yeah, it makes sense.
Um, so the party makes its wayup past the mustering army,
through switchbacks adorned withstatues of pukel men, and at
the top they're greeted by eowynwith what eomer deems foul
(06:36):
tidings about aragorn.
At dinner that night, maryinquired about the paths of the
dead and gets a bit of abackstory and a lot of doom and
gloom.
Did anything stand out to youfrom this whole paths of the
dead conversation?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
um, I thought that it was great that um mary had
pretty good perception here oneowyn being upset.
Uh, not that I would expectThéoden to necessarily pick up
on it, but I think of thehobbits as having sometimes not
(07:12):
always, but maybe as theiradventures continue, their
passive insight increases and Ifeel like this is one of those
moments where big, importantpeople can have conversations
with you without reallyperceiving you or seeing where
you're at.
Um, and that, as a bystander,he was able to kind of pick up
(07:34):
on, uh, just how upset she was.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, you gotta love the hobbits when they kind of
surprise you.
Marion Pippin definitelywouldn't be the ones you'd pick
out to be like the empathetictype and you know what.
That's obviously not fair,because they they are whenever
they need to be.
Yeah, um, so we get a messengerfrom gondor bearing a red
(07:59):
tipped arrow and asking for aid,which theoden immediately
agrees to give.
So this plays out differentlyin the movies a bit.
How did you feel about thechange, the difference, if you
even noticed it?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
so I didn't notice the difference.
Gonna just tell on myself there.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I don't remember how that was in the movie just just
there and saying where wasgondor when the Westfold fell?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Okay, so that does ring a bell.
Yes, I didn't know if that wasthis part.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I mean, I'm just generally remembering reluctance
on Theoden's part to helpGondor.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
overall, I think the thing that stood out to me about
this is Theoden kind of pushingback a little bit on the
messenger, saying isn't it truethat your master knows more than
he's saying?
Essentially that he realizesthat we're all amassed here and
that there is a threat and thatwe're already gearing up for
(08:56):
battle.
I'm paraphrasing heavily, but Ithink you was more the nuance
that stuck out to me that um,and kind of bolstered the
opinion that I've already formedabout Denethor from his
interactions with Gandalf isthat, you know, he's perceived
(09:17):
kind of in a cunning light andnot necessarily positively, um,
but he does know more that'sgoing on and this is a little
sly on his part, um, and that Ithink that also in this passage
is when theoden says that neverin my life has the red arrow uh
been used or been called right.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
so those were the things that stood out to me
about this interaction it's notnecessarily unprecedented,
because it's happened in thepast, but not in Right.
So those were the things thatstood seems to me almost like
he's just a little, I don't know, like the fact that he didn't
(10:09):
hesitate at all and he's like,obviously we're gonna go help
gondor to me, well, while still,you know, engaging with the
messenger and stuff, I was justlike nice, I like that, you know
, it would make sense toquestion and it would make sense
to wonder where were you whenwe needed you?
But that's the petty thing.
Right and granted, in themovies he did come and he did do
what needed doing, but at thesame time it was uh, it was kind
(10:30):
of a little refreshing to seehere in the book that he treated
it slightly differently somaybe you know, maybe he's like
a fair mirror light where he,you know, got a little bit of
not such a great treatment inthat adaptation versus straight
book theoden right, like in the,just an added a little drama,
you know, because where wasgondor when the westfold fell?
(10:52):
is a fun line.
Right, because yeah it isiconic it is iconic.
Why do I remember it if not forthat?
Um, so, yeah, it's.
Uh, it's nice to see theodonagain.
I just really like it as acharacter, and it's especially
whenever we're comparing himwith denethor, who we just met.
Oh gosh, it was not the mostpleasant person in the world.
(11:13):
Um, yeah, so mary goes to sleepbut is summoned again while
it's still dark.
Out turns out a great cloudfrom mordor has taken over the
sky and theodon says Turns out,a great cloud from Mordor has
taken over the sky.
And Théoden says so we come toit in the end, the great battle
of our time in which many thingsshall pass away.
He decides there's no time towaste and calls for the muster
(11:36):
to begin, but he released Merryfrom his service, intent on
leaving him behind.
Merry convinced him to let himride a little longer, eowyn
helped equip him with gear andthey were off In the army.
Mary shared a look with a youngrider with the face of one
without hope who goes in searchfor death.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Any thoughts as the muster rides out.
There was another quote thatwas in that place.
I had also written down thequote that you just shared, the,
I believe, from Théoden, whosays for it is before the walls
of Minas Tirith that the doom ofour time will be decided, and I
was like, wow, we, we, all,everybody gets the stakes
involved.
We're not holding back.
(12:21):
I did think that Théoden'scomment to Mary was a little
harsh None of my riders can bearyou as burden.
I felt very defensive on Mary'sbehalf Mary and Pippin
especially tend to feel likeburdens at different points and
(12:43):
that I just I got reallydefensive, like mama, bearish,
like no, don't talk about himlike that.
So I'm glad that he was able togo.
You know he rides with someonenamed Dernhelm and I have big
suspicions about who Dernhelm is.
But yeah, I'm glad that he gotto continue on for a little
(13:07):
while longer yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
So, speaking of dernhelm, I mentioned the party
halton edoras, uh, where theodenonce again tries to ditch mary,
albeit graciously, I think.
Um, in my opinion, maryeventually relents, but the
young writer who he saw with thelook of whatever impending
death, offers to let him ridewith them, hiding him at first
(13:30):
so no one would see.
When it becomes clear that Maryknows the writer's name, which
the writer seems almostsurprised about, he gives it,
and it's Sternhelm.
So you have your suspicions,probably, I assume, influenced
by the movies.
Absolutely, do you think if youhadn't seen the movies would
you have?
(13:50):
the same suspicions.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
You don't think?
No, I don't think that withoutthe visual cues.
So I tried to think about thatwhile I was reading this part.
I understand that it's moviebias and it's 40 years old,
right, because even in thecartoons, or you know the
cartoons or whatever, um, but somuch of that was based on
visual cue.
So, um, hearing the actor'svoice and seeing their face
(14:16):
through the helm really kind ofgave that away.
Um, and in writing, there areno cues about, um, the writer's
build per se, other than theyare smaller but still, uh, well
muscled and that's not the termused.
(14:36):
But essentially, yeah, somethinglike live, I can't remember
exactly what it was, but it wassomething like that so I mean
that content was there, but Iwas like, in and of itself, just
based on the reading, I wouldhave no idea who dirnhelm could
be um it is very uh, subtlyplaced yeah, I was gonna say
that exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I feel like the hints were subtle in the sense that,
like smaller, you know um,however, the build like a slider
, build, uh, at the, and themild surprise when he didn't
know their name and I was likeokay, why?
like he was definitely giving ushints, and I feel like in the
movies it's almost immediatelywhere she's like they're like
(15:18):
ride with me, and he's like uh,you know, my lady, so you.
It happens like immediatelybasically in the movies, whereas
here I feel like we're going togo wild before anything comes
up and I'm good with it, youknow.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I'm good with it being more subtle and not so
heavy handed.
I can't wait to see what thatlooks like and how that reveal
comes about.
You know, on the page, I'mexcited for it another.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
The other hint is that look that they shared,
right, because I want to say itwas aragorn earlier, or somebody
commented on this like the lookon her face, it's just like you
know she's cold, she's I don't,she just has no hope, right.
And so having that like reallyhaving that exact kind of
description here is, is prettytelling too, so pretty telling.
(16:10):
I'm, I'm, I'm sure as a kid Idid not pick up on it, but now
I'm like, oh, there's littlehints.
I know, I know that I'm lookingfor hints.
So here they are.
Uh, okay, so let me uh, well,never mind, I was just to say,
if you want to weigh in, dearlistener, slash watcher, if you
think this is too heavy handed,or if you think you wouldn't
(16:30):
have guessed if this was yourfirst time, had never seen the
movies, had never read the books, don't know who Durnhelm is,
would you be suspicious?
So let us know.
Or on Discord Okay, so thechapter ends with the party
departing rohan and traveling agreat distance.
Final thoughts before we moveon uh, just it really.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
It really feels like it's about to get epic and it's
about to get epic very soon.
So through this read I was like, wait minute, how long is this
part of the book?
So I went back and I was likewe're building towards a really
magnificent fight, clearly, eventhough I don't know what the
differences might be from bookto movie.
(17:16):
And I'm like, and we're only onchapter four.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I know I was surprised last time with the
fact that we ran into the pathsof the dead.
They're like you know, likewe're like yes, eric one's
already there, he's alreadyrecruiting the army.
Um, in the movies it's funnybecause you chop, they're all
chopped up and like interspersed, and so we get fredo and sam
and we get everybody, and ittakes much longer for that to
happen, but not in the books andI think that's probably my
(17:45):
biggest takeaway from a bookexperience versus movie
experience no real concept ofthe passage of time.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I feel like I've said that in every episode to one
extent or another, even back tothe Hobbit just the lack of
understanding of how much timethey spent traveling together or
how long it took to get to aplace, or how short you know
that 10 day and all of thatstuff, that entire book took
place in 10 days.
You know the time skew was real.
(18:12):
I feel as a as a movie consumeris all for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Um, okay, let's see.
Uh, so that was it for thechapter Amazing.
So book five, chapter four, theSiege of Gondor.
So that's quite the title.
We are back with Pippin andGandalf.
Pippin is summoned to Denethorand is appointed, as his esquire
mentions it might be nice tohear songs from a place
(18:46):
untroubled as gondor is, butnotes that their vigil, keeping
those lands safe while notfruitless, has been thankless.
So he strikes me as, dare I say, a bit of a jerk.
How are you feeling?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
about him the same.
So I go back to the insightcomment earlier and apply it to
pippin.
And I really like theseback-to-back mary pippin
chapters because it reallycontrasts um, the two major
human leaders in in the story,um, and I'm sure that's by
design, right, because tolkienwas far smarter than I am.
(19:20):
uh, so so Again, pippin's likehe feels very deeply
uncomfortable sharing any songsfrom the Shire, and I feel that
that level of discomfort is aform of insight, right, like
there is something amiss andDenethor's motives are not good.
Generally says things thatalways has an undertone of I'm
(19:50):
having one over on you or I'mactually saying something kind
of crappy about you, but youprobably don't get it.
Yeah, that is the vibe, thatthis whole interaction gave me
is I'm smarter than you and youdon't realize that I'm just kind
of crapping on you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, gross Jerk Bully.
We don't realize that I'm justkind of crapping on you a little
bit yeah gross jerk bully.
We don't like it.
No, like, okay.
So pippin gets clad in properlivery and lives out his first
day as an esquire and at theclose of the day sees the same
final glint of sunlight thatfrodo and sam had seen
highlighting the crown offlowers at the crossroads back
in the two towers.
So I appreciated this littlemoment of temporal calibration.
(20:32):
Did it help?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
you at all.
Yes, and I really liked thatterm because I didn't know how
to pew it, but it definitelylike an alignment.
Yeah, and I'm like, okay, herewe are.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Okay, that's how you go, like they've passed that
moment, we back, we've, we'vegone back in time with pippin
yeah it makes sense, it makes iteasier to follow, okay, so
pippin meets up with baragondand as they converse they are
struck dumb with fear hearing anazgul.
But it's not just one.
(21:04):
This time it's five, swoopingcloser and closer to the city
and they are in pursuit of fairamir, who finally made it to the
city, though again the nazgul,they're in pursuit.
So when things look especiallydire, gandalf shows up emanating
light and throwing a shaft oflight at one nazgul that sought
(21:25):
to challenge him, scaring themall away.
Thoughts on the sequence.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I thought it was incredible.
I think there probably issomething akin to it in the
movie, but I don't reallyremember it specifically, and
it's probably not in the contextof helping Faramir, but I'm not
100% sure.
So I do think that it speaksvolumes that Gandalf didn't
hesitate, right Like he wroteout on shadow facts, to make
(21:53):
sure that Faramir can make itback into the city.
I think that that speaksvolumes to Gandalf's perception
of Faramir and his importanceCause, again, like I've said,
might've been in book one,probably book two, um, about I
think, that gandalf hasperceptions on a higher level,
(22:14):
kind of like galadriel's livingat you know, 30 000 feet.
I feel like gandalf is probably, you know, 20 000 feet or
something, and so he is vibingwith the universe at a whole
different frequency, um, and sofor him to place that level of
import on faramir uh sayssomething to me as a reader,
like okay, all right yeah,because I do believe that
(22:36):
gandalf would save anybody thathe thought he could, uh, but I
do think that in these very diretimes that gandalf is having to
pick and choose where he'sspending his energy, he
definitely is.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I I noted that this feels this is about as magic-y
as lord of the rings gets, youknow, like a, like a bolt of
light that's.
You know it's giving sorcerer,I don't know.
And I.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I don't have it teed up, but it talks about you know
he is, he's shining, you knowwhat I mean?
Like he's not dampened hislight in any way.
He he rides out on shadow factslike a bright light.
Yeah, uh, so yeah, yeah, 100percent magic key, definitely
magic key.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's not the um in the hobbit right, the fireworks
in the cave where we're like,was that magic or was?
Were those just fire?
We're not sure at this time.
No, this is Gandalf.
The White True power Does magic, which is fun because I love
magic.
So yeah, speaking of Nazgulfive, when we saw them Five we
(23:41):
got a Nazgul sighting Justbecause there are five of them.
Oh, I didn't realize.
Okay, okay, we're not countingthe nazgul, we're counting the
number of sight incidences thatwe see any nazgul.
I think that's more reasonable.
Okay, it's gonna be a lot ofnazgul if we count them
(24:01):
individually, individually yeah,I think that that's setting
ourselves up for disappointmentokay.
Well, another nazgul sighting,then one for the record books.
So pippin describes faramir,because he makes it in as
follows here was one with an airof high nobility, such as
aragorn, at times revealed lesshigh perhaps, yet also less
(24:24):
incalculable and remote, one ofthe kings of men born into a
later time but touched with thewisdom and sadness of the elder
race.
So this, to me, felt exactlyright.
How did you feel about?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
it.
I loved it.
So it took the perspective ofsomebody that I legitimately,
just five minutes ago, talkedabout showing very good insight,
and applied it to a characterthat we've already met.
I left that interaction in thatprevious books, feeling like he
is as advertised.
He really is, you know, astandup dude and has very good
(25:00):
motives and is pure of heart,and this validates that for me
from a perspective that I tendto trust yeah, yeah it.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Uh, it validated me as well.
I love you know.
I like fell in love with thebook faramir last, last reads,
or you know last book, so it wasnice that uh, pippin had the
same experience, basically.
So Faramir reports to Denethorincluding the part about Frodo
and his goal to reach CirithUngol, though not mentioning the
(25:34):
ring.
This sets Gandalf into acalculating frenzy about where
Frodo would be and when.
So if I didn't know the story,I'd have half expected Gandalf
to ride out to go meet him.
You know right Because like, whyelse would you be like that?
Okay, where would he be?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
you know where would you see him?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
yeah, when did you see him?
Where was he?
So did you have the samethought, like gandalf's, about
to go ride for frodo?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
yeah, I mean not for nothing.
The first half of the seriesgandalf rides off a lot yeah,
true, just peace, I I gotta, Igotta ask half the time the
irish goodbyes his way throughit.
Anyways, you just turn aroundand be like dude.
We had a wizard.
Where'd he go?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
dang it down.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
One wizard yeah so yes, absolutely, and just the
frantic nature of him, uh, doingthe calculations to try and
figure out how far the ring hadgotten um, and also how intently
he's watching faramir to see ifhe mentions the ring.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's really watching it like okay, which?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
again it's very tense reading it.
It's very well written, um.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I feel like the tension definitely plays, even
as, from a reader perspective, Ithought it was very well done I
do wonder if I were Gandalf,you know, and granted, I
wouldn't, I don't know that itwould even be possible for him
to like catch up, right.
So maybe that's, maybe he madethe calculations and determined.
No, I can't.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I can't catch him, you know.
I mean, we don't know, we don'tknow what he was calculating.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
so that's what I mean .
Yeah, because, like, I feellike if he could have caught him
, like that's the number onepriority, I feel like he would
have, but maybe not, I don'tknow, I don't know.
What do you think?
Like wouldn't you have?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
if you were him, I think the temptation would be
there.
But I feel like even gandalfsaid like he can't help him
anymore, and I think in thischapter he talks about like the
enemy won't be defeated by thehand of man.
So yeah, you know, I think thathe knows that all of their
hopes ride on frodo and, byextension, sam yeah, but I can
(27:40):
definitely see the temptationsyeah, no, I can'm like.
How fast would it take Gwaihirto get there.
But I didn't even think of that.
I think I just took it as he'scalculating to see how far the
ring has traveled versus how farhe could get or how close he
could get to him.
But I think that's a.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
I took it and I was just like, yeah, I would be
surprised if that's what hischoice would have been, if he
could have made it so.
Faramir's tale sets Denethoroff and he accuses him of being
a wizard's pupil and failing tobring him a mighty gift.
He compares him unfavorably toBoromir, which brings Gandalf to
(28:23):
Faramir's defense, once againin a battle of words with
Denethor.
So did anything stand out toyou from this little exchange?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Um, what really stood out to me is that it it just
really highlights just howthreatened by Gandalf Denethor
feels.
Uh, so, all of this so beforeit was just contentious, the
comments like wizards, peopleare under your spell, and all of
these things make it very clearthat Denethor is just strictly
(28:55):
treating Gandalf as a threat, sonot only just a strong
personality that you clash with.
He clearly feels verythreatened by him, very
threatened by him.
And I I don't.
I'm like I don't want to makeit seem like I'm participating
in Boromir bashing, but I lovethe fact that Gandalf was like,
if Boromir had gotten it, itstill wouldn't have made it to
(29:17):
you.
You know, our Boromir bashingdays are over.
Rip, RIP.
He did what he could, bro, butI do.
I like the fact that he notonly defended Faramir but told
Denethor very plainly that evenif Boromir had gotten the ring,
it never would have made it toyou.
(29:37):
And even if it had made it toyou, I don't trust you with it
either.
You could have it sitting undera mountain and it could still
turn you.
So I thought I that's about asplain and direct as gandalf gets
, and I dug it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I was here for it yeah, I guess if we're sitting
here with a total denethor bag,then we have to treat him, you
know, with the same amount of Idon't know lack of decorum that
he treats everybody else.
I guess it made me so mad theway he treated Faramir it just
ugh.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I wrote.
I was like that depends on themanner of your return.
And I wrote next to it sets myteeth on edge, yeah, and he
calls Frodo a witless halfling.
I got all puffed up, I was like.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
What Excuse me?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Like Frodo was an elf friend.
Okay, we do not talk about ourdarling boy like that yeah, yeah
, this man is learned, he knowsstuff.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Okay, um, all right.
So when denethor dismisseseveryone and pippin and gandalf
return to their room, pippinasks gandalf about frodo, and
Gandalf expresses extreme worry,though the fact that Gollum was
with them didn't seem tosurprise him much.
In fact, he suggested, despitelikely intended treachery,
gollum might inadvertently helpthem.
(30:59):
Given what we know happened, doyou think Gandalf's prediction
panned out in that wayinadvertently helping them?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I do.
I know that we are currently upagainst a wall, with Frodo on
one side and our boy Samwise onthe other, but I do choose to
believe that Golluminadvertently helped them.
You know, not that it wasn'twithout peril or danger, but in
his own way Gollum accidentallyhelped them get through a very
(31:33):
tough place.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, he got them essentially into Mordor one way
or the other, I guess.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
We just got to get Sam through the door now.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, true, I also noted that.
Uh, gandalf guessed thataragorn had revealed himself to
sauron right when he's doing allof his like calculations and
everything trying to figure outexactly how the board is being
placed.
He's, he's just like I don'tknow why sauron's doing what
he's doing and then he juststarts kind of like
extrapolating.
He's like you know what?
(32:04):
Something must have happened.
Oh, I bet aragorn lookedrevealed himself and I was just
like man, this guy in theinsight.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, so to me that was like long sight, and he
showed his math you know likethat's how I perceive that that
he is so in tune with what'sgoing on again at a higher level
.
He's like what would force hishand and is able to intuit that
based on you know, knowing allthe pieces well enough yeah, I
(32:32):
think that's really goodstorytelling on tolkien's part
too, to choose like these povsright.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
So you've got pip in one place, mary in another place
and they're witnessing all ofthese super important things
happening with these like superimportant people.
Not that they're not important,but if it were just gandalf,
for example, in minas tirith andhe's fighting with denethor,
you could get that scene rightin some way because they're
saying words out loud.
But if pippin wasn't there withgandalf in this conversation,
(32:59):
we would probably have nevergotten gandalf's inner model.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You wouldn't have to explain it to anybody.
Explain it, it'd just beexplain it.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
It'd just be going on in here, but instead he's kind
of explaining it out loud.
Granted, he might be talkinglike me, he might be probably
talking out loud to himself, butit would have read weirder, I
think, if Tolkien was like okay,gandalf's in a room by himself
and he's saying these things.
So I think it worked outstory-wise to have him kind of
go through all of this aroundeither Denethor or Pippin.
(33:27):
And yeah, mad respect toGandalf because he's just
putting things togetherbasically and putting Denethor
in his place as he should.
So Makes me so mad.
Speaking of the next morning.
Denethor sent Faramir on afool's errand to guard the river
in Osgiliath and Faramir wenthoping that Denethor would think
better of him if he returned.
(33:49):
So I keep coming back to this.
I keep coming back to it Nowthat he's done that.
I really dislike Denethor.
How would you rate him on ascale of 1 to 10?
As far as good person?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Negative garbage.
I don't know.
I really have have distaste forhim.
The way he's portrayed in themovies and based on the book, it
was well deserved.
Um, if anything, the additionalcontext just makes him more, uh
, dislikable.
Um, it's just a little bit morerooted or grounded in um his
(34:27):
character.
I feel like there's a lot ofcontext that's added here that
helps me understand why he isthe way he is, but it does not
take away from how trulydislikable he is.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, I feel like all the context here does make him
more substantial as a character,because in the movie he's very
much just like this guy lovesboromir, he hates faramir, he's
a bad dad right, but it's notgrounded in anything.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And john noble I love john noble as an actor and I
thought he did an incredible jobportraying and sometimes it's
more fun you know, as a theaterkid dropout like it's more fun
sometimes to play the not sonice characters um so it's not a
knock on his performance by anymeans, but no.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
This context explains to me what it's rooted in and
I'm sure that that was subtextfor the actor, but knowing it
now I'm like oh, he really kindof is despicable yeah, and the
thing about it like knowing thathe's not only just like mean,
but he's super intelligent,right, kind of magical.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
And arrogant.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, and that kind of lends itself to his arrogance
and his disputes with Gandalf,which I think are definitely
more substantial in the bookthan they were in the movies.
Right, those were very shortand these are like a little more
drawn out and intense.
Um, so yeah, I'm enjoying ifthat's the word learning and
(35:53):
experiencing more of denethor,if for no other reason than that
he just feels like a much morefleshed out character and much,
much easier character to trulyhate.
Yeah, I don't know, that'swhere I'm at, so yeah.
So the next day, news came ofthe inevitable.
The enemy won the passage ofAnduin of the Anduin and Faramir
was struggling.
(36:13):
Gandalf left to help and cameback heralding the entrance of
the king of Angmar, lord of theNazgul, captain of despair, to
the fray, thus far commandingfrom the rear.
Not by the hand of the sorry,sorry, not by the hand of man
shall he fall.
So it is said, this feels likeit once again upped the ante a
(36:35):
little bit.
The stakes are getting higher.
How did it hit for you?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
uh, definitely so again, it's been so long.
I don't remember a standoffwith like a primary Nazgul and
Gandalf, so I was all for thislike a one-on-one showdown.
So bring it on.
And Gandalf does not disappoint, right Like he goes in very OP
(37:01):
and to your point, there is nowhiz, bangs or anything like
this is truly magical, powerfulwizard in his prime.
So I really I dug it, uh, and Ilike the fact.
Um, you know, the chapter tellsus that gandalf essentially
(37:23):
takes control or takes ownershipof the last defense of Gondor.
Mm-hmm, you know, becausenobody's, really nobody's
manning the wheel, so to speak.
Mm-hmm, so Gandalf's like Idon't know, we're still fighting
over here.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Right.
So Faramir's men wereultimately forced into a full
retreat, were almost completelyrouted, if not for a sortie that
Denethor allowed to ride outalongside Gandalf in all of his
glowing glory again.
But it wasn't enough to saveFaramir from being darted by one
of the Southron men and fallingto be carried in seemingly
(38:04):
lifeless by the Prince of DolAmroth.
Carried in seemingly lifelessby the Prince of Dol Amroth.
Seeing Faramir, denethorretreated into his tower and
those who looked upon it sawflickering lights in the windows
.
And when he came back his facewas gray, death-like.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
What did you make of all of that?
So when I read first looking upin the tower and they see the
pale light and gleamed andflickered, I made a note that
said, what are you up to?
And then it was said he wasgray and more death-like, I was
like does he have a Palantirhidden up there?
Because oh, the signs aresigning a little bit in that
(38:47):
direction you know, when aragorndid the thing with the palantir
, he was very transformed and helooked very gray and death-like
, as I recall.
So that's my prediction.
Um, I definitely made note ofit.
Um, so we'll see if that comesto pass.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
So, finally, the city was besieged, sea ginsens were
brought and used to catapultflames and, eventually, the
heads of those who felldefending us Gilead over the
walls.
This was dark.
Did the darkness surprise you?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Um, no, but I think that if I had read it as a kid I
would be a little bit morestartled.
Um, yeah, knowing what I knowabout the author and seeing how
he's treated war to this point,he doesn't really pull a lot of
punches.
Yeah, um, you know, and war isbrutal.
So, uh, I, I did write, yikes,you know, I was like, but this
(39:51):
is not ever, uh, billed as akid's story.
True, you know?
True, so it's, it's moreintense and it's expected.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
So as for the siege, uh, I wrote down a little bit of
literary umami here.
Um, for yet another weapon.
Swifter than hunger, the lordof the dark tower had dread and
despair.
I don't always pick up the, uh,the darker umamis, but that was
like okay, it's getting dark,it's getting scary.
It's getting dark, it's gettingscary, it's getting dire.
(40:27):
So Denethor, like many in thecity, seemed to be in a state of
extreme despair and gave ruleof the city over to Gandalf, as
you mentioned, and he stayed atFaramir's bedside.
That's something I didn'texpect, but definitely felt like
the right call Does Great.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
General Gandalf seem appropriate to you.
Uh, not necessarily greatgeneral, but uh, somebody who
has proven over and over againthat he's got greater insight to
the bigger chess board, uh,does seem to be a good fit okay,
yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I don't always think of gandalf as a military leader,
but you know what he can.
He can do it all.
It turns out, denethor isn'texactly comforting the men who
try to report to him either,ultimately deciding that the
West had failed and he andFaramir should go to a pyre to
burn like heathen kings.
He tries to release Pippin, butPippin pushes back, following
(41:23):
him on his funeral march andthen leaving to find Gandalf,
bids the servants to drag theirfeet while preparing the pyre
and, upon meeting Baragond, toldhim about the situation and
asked for his help too.
Not bad for a little hobbit,huh.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yes, I was very proud of him when he wrote when
Denethor is saying I will go tomy pyre, I wrote what in the
unhinged steward are we doingright now?
Like, what are we like?
Oh, okay, so, and I remember itsomewhat from the movie, but I
kind of remember it as him justburning Faramir.
(42:00):
I don't know that I got that hewas going to die too or
sacrifice himself.
I didn't really get that.
So I was glad.
Honestly, I was like if, if, wehave just Pippin there singing
a song.
I was just relieved that Pippinwas going to like get help and
(42:22):
go no, no, no, delay, delay,delay.
Right Man's banana chips, I'llbe back, I'm going for help.
I was like, yes, that is theright answer.
Don't get me wrong.
The song was beautiful and Ilove the song, but when you got
somebody who's crazy and settingthings on fire, you go get help
crazy and setting things onfire, you go get help.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, and I think that was like.
You know pippin, having seenwhat he saw in faramir, probably
inspired that more.
Also, you know, obviously, ifhe's gonna see somebody who's
still alive get burned to death,it makes sense that you would
try to save them.
But I have a feeling that youknow pippin recognized that
gandalf really respected faramirand that faramir was an
important person to this wholeordeal and that Denethor was
just going to give up withouthim actually having died yet.
(43:09):
Pippin was like, oh no, it's upto me which I think was great
Good for him to really take thereins.
So ultimately, in the end, ahuge ram, gr Grand, advanced on
the gate and ultimately overtookit.
The lord of the Nazgul enteredthe city and all fled, save one,
(43:30):
gandalf, who bid him to go backto the abyss, and nothingness
prepared for him.
But as the wish king replied,something else could be heard
Great horns of the north wildlyblowing.
Rohan had come at last.
What a way to end the chapter.
Just reading that gave megoosebumps, like thoughts
highlights.
(43:50):
I don't know that I love that.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So rohan had come at last.
I had that's my last bullet andI was like that's good, because
the last couple of chaptersevery chapter so far in this
book has ended very strong.
But this was strong and alsopositive, so I was like cool
beans, we stretched the tone upa little bit.
I'm into it, let's go.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, it was.
I don't know, rohan had come atlast.
I don't know, it felt good.
It felt good, I still got thegoosebumps.
They're persisting.
Okay, so good, I still got thegoosebumps, they're persisting.
Um, okay, so is that is itchapter four?
no, we already did chapter four,book that was chapter that was
chapter four, book five, chapterfive, the ride of the roherum.
(44:34):
So we are back with mary, whoreally misses pippin, so much in
fact that he wishes he was atall writer like aomer who could
just blow a horn and gogalloping to Pippin, so much in
fact that he wishes he was atall rider like Eomer who could
just blow a horn and gogalloping to Pippin's rescue.
So I thought that was rathergallant of Mary.
How do you feel about it?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I love them.
So it's a lesser bromance it'snot, as we don't spend as much
time on it as we do with Sam orFrodo or with even Legolas and
Gimli, but I love that.
I love that kinship, I lovethat one of them will find
themselves wondering how theother is doing.
And here we are, and he wantsto ride off and save his friend.
(45:15):
And I'm just like, I love youguys.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
So sweet.
Hobbits are so loyal, like mylord lord, they're just the best
.
I don't know they're tough tobeat um.
So this was a random littleaddition to the books that
weren't not, was not.
In the movies we meet the wildmen of the woods, yeah, who came
to assist theoden, offeringscouting services and to guide
(45:43):
the army through forgotten roads.
So I had completely forgottenabout this from the books, did
it, I assume, surprise youtotally, totally, and I like the
way that they are described.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Uh, my bullet says the wild men are pretty cool.
Uh, horny brow.
Their language is a little bitdifferent, you know, they're
reclusive.
The part that stood out to meis that they're making this deal
with Théoden.
Théoden clearly knows how tocommunicate with them, which
(46:16):
that's a great little piece ofknowledge to have.
It's great.
And they're doing it basicallybecause they don't want them to
hunt them like beasts anymore.
I flag that as well.
I was like, oh, was that athing you guys were doing?
Cause, like, these guys don'tseem like they're doing anything
(46:38):
.
If anything, they're helpingyou just to rid their lands of
works, which is another thingthat stood out to me that these,
uh, much like the ants and theum, the wild trees, didn't like
orcs.
The wild men don't like orcseither, and so they refuse to
fight for them, but they'rewilling to show them a new way.
(47:00):
Um, so, yeah, I think that Iloved that because I've never
heard of the wild men before, soit's brand new, fresh content.
No, um, no movie bias there.
But also I was like, oh, didyou guys really do you hunt?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
for you.
Is that the thing you weredoing?
That a thing kind of terrible?
Um, yeah, but you know, I guessmen generally aren't always
known for their understandingand mercy when it comes to
people who are different thanthem, right?
So this is realistic to say theleast.
(47:35):
Unfortunately, you would hopethat the men of Rohan would be
better than that, but I guessperhaps not that the men of
Rohan would be better than that,but I guess perhaps not.
So the wild men of the woodsguide them, they take them on
these secret paths, trying tobasically save time, because I
didn't mention this, butbasically they are behind, they
are worried they're not going tomake it in time to Gondor, and
(47:57):
so this was just kind of anextreme boon for these guys to
show up and offer them ashortcut, essentially.
So, after guiding them, thewild men vanished into the
glooms, never to be seen byriders of Rohan again, which I
took as good.
That means they're not huntingthem anymore, right?
Like, yeah, that's how you read.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
That's how I chose to take it as well.
I want to believe that you'renot going to hunt people who
actively aided you Right.
Right, I would like to thinkthat we're not hunting anybody
who's not actively harming youtoo, but I'll settle for.
Yeah we made a deal so let'sleave him alone.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Uh guys, all right.
So theoden's company, make itto the battle and we get some
sick battle speeches fromtheoden too in fact, and I would
like you to rate them okay.
So I don't know what the scaleis gonna to be Like.
You create the scale andthere's going to be two, so this
(49:03):
is the first one.
Now is the hour come.
Riders of the mark, sons ofEorl Bows, and fire are before
you and your homes far behind.
Yet, though you fight upon analien field, the glory that you
reap there shall be your ownforever.
Shall be your own forever oathsye have taken.
(49:26):
Now fulfill them all to lordand land and league of
friendship.
I might have done that wrong,but yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
That's what it is league of friendship.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah, great, great to lord and land and league of
friendship.
That's excerpt one.
Yeah, I think we'll do one.
I have to rate and then youthink we'll do one at a time.
Do I have to rate and then youread We'll do one at a time.
I want you to, I want you don't.
You don't have to rate themlike one, like best and worst.
You can do, like, on a scale ofone to five, on a scale of, you
(49:52):
know, underwhelming tooverwhelming, whatever you want
to do it's.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
it's your choice I'm gonna call that one a big fat
four a big fat four.
Okay, um, you know what?
I'll even give it a 4.5 out of5 because it is, it is
inspirational, af it is.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
I was moved they haven't popping off he is um he
is.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
He knows how to talk to his men.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
So 4.5.
So, after looking upon theagony of Minas Tirith and
briefly quailing, morning cameand light flashed in the city
and Theoden's strength wasreturned.
He straightened and cried outin a loud voice, more clear than
any there had ever heard amortal man achieve before.
Here it is ever heard of mortalman achieved before, here it is
(50:47):
arise, arise.
Riders of phaedon fell, deeds,awake.
Fire and slaughter spear shallbe shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword day, a red day.
Air, the sun rises.
Ride now, ride now, ride togondor.
That was that one and that's myfive yeah, okay, I feel like he
(51:08):
does ramp it up and honestly Ifeel like such a dweeb because I
can't.
I can never do it as good asthe actor in the movies and he's
he, just he was so rip bernardI know rip um, he was amazing,
he was amazing and the fact thatthat was like straight out of
the books too, like no need foredits, really it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
So because I recognized a sword day, a red
day, I was like, oh, I'm prettysure this made it in.
Um, so I will say that thegreat boom and flash of light
that happened before he gavethis speech dork that I am, I
was like this feels a lot likeD&D inspiration, because it
really looked like perked him upand made him very inspirational
(51:54):
.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, yeah.
I just love Théoden Book,théoden slays Movie Théoden as
well, because this showed up inthe movies and he did it way
better than I could have.
Um, okay, so this chapter endswith a noble and terrifying
charge by theoden and his menwith a battle song on their lips
(52:17):
.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
thoughts before we pick an mvp the host of rohan
burst into song as they slew.
I had very mixed feelings aboutthat, but you know they were
also inspired and they werebeing carried into, so I gave
them a pass.
But it was a very weird thingto read.
(52:38):
I was like, oh, being marriedwhile you kill is a definite
vibe yeah, it's its own thing.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
I just got this like.
I got this impression that theywere just like swole, I don't
know, the the battle, not battlerage, but just like they were
just overwhelmed by the fervor,exactly Like the fact that
Théoden was like apparently notan old man anymore, but like a
(53:08):
glowing beacon of valor andthey're all around him and
they're they're pushing backthis army that was winning five
seconds ago.
And everyone's feeling likewe're doing something and we're
like fighting evil, especiallybecause, like I would get it if
it was like you know, onecountry fighting another.
It's like, oh I mean, why arethey fine?
(53:30):
We're not sure this is evil,like they're going up against
evil.
So I didn't pause for a second.
I was like, yeah, you singwhile you slay those bad guys.
Get in there.
It's fine with that, not aproblem.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
So, uh, that's all I had because, as you pointed out,
it was a very short chapter.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
It was, it was okay.
So, uh, we've got a traditionwhere we pick an mvp from the
chapters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music jessica, whowould you name as your MVP this
episode?
Speaker 1 (54:03):
I went back and forth a lot um on this read because
we saw some really critical uhchoices being made.
I think I'm gonna give it upfor Theoden okay, is that who
you wrote down?
That is is who I wrote down Iam sticking with it.
I was like, is that just becausehe was, you know, chapter five?
(54:25):
But there was a lot that led upto that as well.
So, yeah, I mean I feel asthough there were several very
good choices in this read.
So you know, if the listeners,slash discorders, slash watchers
want to shoot me down with abetter option, I'll take it.
(54:46):
Um, but ultimately I'm gonna gowith bayadin okay, he is my
runner up.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Uh, he is.
He is my runner up because,like dang, he was, he was
spitting rhymes, like he was soinspirational this, this, uh, I
guess this last chapter, butthen also in his other chapter
he was.
He had an amazing quote inthere as well.
Um, the fact that he just likepopped off at this battle and
just became this amazingfighting warrior being just so
(55:17):
impressive.
Um, so, yeah, big mad respectfor theoden in this chapter, but
I also have mad respect forgandalf and I think that's who
I'm gonna pick.
Um, I, I also want to give ashout out to pippin because of
his quick thinking when it comesto faramir.
This was a tough, tough, toughchapter for mvp.
Um, but without gandalf,faramir 100% would have died.
(55:43):
So he did his magic thing.
He saved Faramir as he wasriding into the city and then he
went back out and helped himfight again.
He backed him up with Denethor,he became the general
(56:04):
essentially for the entiredefense of metastirith, and
whenever the lord of the nazgulshowed up, he stood his ground.
And so all of those things tome were like, yeah, I think, on
a scale of epicness, the andolfto me won mvp yeah, I went back
and forth between those two.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
specifically, I also heavily considered Pippin.
Ultimately, for me, it justfelt like this portion of the
read was Theoden's moment.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
He was a close second for me for sure, so I'm glad
you picked him Because it mademe picking Gandalf hurt a little
less.
At least he got props.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Yeah, because it made me picking gandalf hurt a
little less yeah, it made.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
It made my gandalf pick hurt a little bit less,
yeah, okay.
So we are reading for next week, book five, chapters six
through eight.
Not quite as long of a read, um, on that one as we've had for
the last two episodes, so easytime to catch up if you're
behind um.
And we just wanted to say thankyou so much for tuning into our
(57:04):
second episode of season fourof but are there dragons brought
to you by your hosts, jessicasadai and me, critter xd?
Don't forget to follow us atbut are there dragons on youtube
, instagram and tiktok?
And but dragons pod?
Just one, t on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
(57:25):
Shelf Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 4, so
let us know on social media howyou feel about this one.
Once again, we thank you,listeners of the pod.
Good fortune, go with you foryour support and friendship.
Bye.
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