July 23, 2024 • 54 mins
Join Kritter and Jessica as the action rises through book 5 chapters 6 through 8. Dernhelm revealed! Denethor is done for! Aragorn saves so many! And we aren't even halfway yet, folks.
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kritter (00:03):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess.
And we're continuing thisadventure with the Return of the
King by JRR Tolkien, with me asthe resident Lord of the Rings
veteran and me as the Lord ofthe Rings first timer.
(00:26):
Rings veteran and me as the Lordof the Rings first timer In
this, our third episode ofseason four.
We're going to discuss bookfive, chapters six through eight
.
Now, before we dive in, jessica, as always, what's new with you
?
Anything, anything happening.
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:38):
I feel good.
We had our WatCon time.
It was a time to be had, it waswonderful, and now you know
we're home and we're taking abreath and it sounds really
silly, but it's my first time asa homeowner we are legitimately
watching grass grow.
We had grass planted and we arewatching it grow.
(00:59):
So that's what we're doing,because we're super cool.
Kritter (01:03):
You know what I feel like.
Samwise Gamgee would love tohear that.
He would be fascinated.
Do you know what kind of grassit is?
Oh gosh, no, no, whatever kind.
Jessica (01:11):
the landscaper thought we had really good odds at
growing.
It was a little rough backthere so we called in
professional help because I amnot a Samwise.
So I needed help.
How about you?
Well, I'm not a.
Samwise, so I needed help.
How about you?
Kritter (01:26):
Well, I'm not a Samwise either.
I still have a snake plant inmy office that hasn't died yet
and I've actually propagated itright, because that's one of the
easiest plants you canpropagate and that's the extent
of my green thumb Literally Iwill kill it.
I've killed cactuses before,legitimately, so yeah, I respect
(01:48):
the landscapers for sure.
I think Wat Con was amazing.
I had such a good time.
It's good to be home.
Obviously, the con what do theycall that?
The come down off the con isrough right.
Jessica (01:59):
Con drop.
Kritter (02:00):
Con drop.
Yeah, you feel like you're sorevved up, and high on life all
weekend and then you get homeand it didn't help that I got
home at like 1.30 am my time,which was 2.30 am con time
because of some delays in myflight, so oh, that hurt on
Monday, but it's fine.
(02:20):
I'm fine now, so ready to talkabout this, this here book, if
you are sweet I am okay, let'sdive in book five, chapter six,
the battle of pelennor fields.
But it was no orc chieftain orbrigand that led the assault
upon gondor.
The darkness was breaking toosoon before the date that his
(02:42):
master had set for it.
Fortune had betrayed him forthe moment, and that, and the
world had turned against him.
Victory was slipping from hisgrasp even as he stretched out
his hand to seize it.
But his arm was long.
He was still in command,working great powers, king, ring
wraith, lord of the nazgul, hemany weapons.
He left the gate and vanished.
(03:05):
Was this our first Nazgul POV,and how did you feel about it?
Jessica (03:12):
I think it was actually I think so.
I have a note next to thissection that you know said in
the voice of like a TikTok audio.
I didn't know it could do that,so I don't think I've made any
bones about I didn't know thatthere was a Lord Nazgul, a king
(03:36):
ringwraith, as it were.
I did not know that they hadanything in a hierarchy and then
just the up and vanished.
I was like, oh, excuse me, oh,we got skills.
Kritter (03:48):
Okay, noted it's feeling very merge all from the
wheel of time right, like theycan disappear into shadows
according to the lower.
Yeah.
I already had that from thePelennor fields thing, which I
won't go into, but I was likethat name sounds very
reminiscent and yeah grammarnerd in me, maybe, but starting
(04:29):
a sentence, starting a chapterwith but like, which is ironic
because I guess our, our podcastname is butter their dragons,
but but when I read that in thisbook, in this chapter, I was
just kind of like surprised bythe style because he hasn't
really utilized it yet.
But it was so good, right,because it was like the last we
heard of him.
It was the horns were blowing,there was a standoff with
(04:50):
gandalf right, and then the hornstarted blowing right, and so
we had to wait a week.
But the next step was this butit was no or chief tan, so I
don't know.
I thought it was fun, I thoughtit was a cool way to phrase it,
cool way to do it personally.
Jessica (05:06):
Yeah, the next part I did not like as much because it
talks about how they feed theNazgul's ride and they nursed it
with fell meats and I like justeverything about that.
Gave me the ick.
Yeah, so kudos, because I'msure that was the intention.
(05:26):
I have no doubt that that wason purpose.
Good job, yeah, very gross,super gross.
Kritter (05:33):
Nazgul, creepy, powerful, intimidating, magical
and gross.
Yeah.
So Théoden's company, whoshowed up, horns a-blazin', is
just laying waste to thosearound him.
When the Lord of the Nazgulshows up, Theoden's mount
Snowmane, a black dart, havingpierced him, fell on his side,
(05:56):
pinning Theoden beneath him.
And to add insult to injury,the Witch King's giant flying
mount flew down and literallysettled on Snowmane, claws
digging in.
So things are not looking goodat all for Theoden or Snowmane.
How are you feeling at thisparticular moment?
Jessica (06:13):
My note says today's not a good day to be a horse
chick.
Kritter (06:19):
No, it's not.
I'm so sorry.
Jessica (06:21):
It's tough, it's definitely tough.
Kritter (06:28):
Yeah, I don't there's not much else to say to that
like yeah, I think my reaction,more than anything, was oof
right.
Can you imagine having a horsefall on you and then having a
giant flying beast with a witchking on its back settle on you?
you know what I mean like, likebasically air out of my lungs
Just reading, Just even thinkingabout how that felt.
Also, during this confrontation, Mary had been thrown by his
(06:52):
horse and he was blinded andsick with horror, so he also was
not feeling good at thisparticular moment, Like this was
not a good time for anyonearound Theoden, Mary included.
So the only one left to protecttheoden was dirnhelm and we get
the iconic exchange the nazgulthreatens dirnhelm, declaring
(07:17):
that no man could hinder him,and dirnhelm I did quotes, if
you're only listening laughsdeclaring herself finally as
Eowyn no man am I, she says,threatening to smite the Witch
King living or dead if hetouched Théoden.
Amazement at this exchangebrings Mary out of his terror.
(07:38):
Did it do anything for you?
Jessica (07:41):
It was incredible so I wrote completely iconic next to
it no living man am I is justone of those scenes I had
actually at one point done likea short story with you know that
, as like the tag, like thetwist, that you know no living
(08:01):
man can touch me but all thewives are the ones that got the
bad guy, kind of thing Ooh nice.
So I love that particular twist.
It resonates with me and so Iloved reading it in the moment.
It was just as majestic and Iliked having the visuals of
different media that I'veconsumed around it.
(08:22):
But then the next part is thepart where she empowers Mary,
right, so the quote that I havethere is it slow, kindled, the
courage of his race that it wasawoken.
I love that line and that wasjust so like yes, because you
(08:42):
know.
You know that we love hobbitsaround here.
We do.
Kritter (08:46):
We do.
Jessica (08:46):
We love us some hobbits , and so for her to be
transformative for him in thatmoment was amazing.
You know, everything about herrevelation is iconic, and this
just adds to that just adds tothat.
Kritter (09:03):
Yeah, I mean shout out to Tolkien for writing this,
because yes, slay but alsoMiranda Otto, who played A one
of the movies.
She doesn't say no man am I butthe?
I am no man the way she said ither voice.
It's so intense and amazing andperfect, and just the fact that
I could read this and watch it,it and it's two completely
(09:26):
different experiences, but bothof them give me such I don't
know, I don't want to say joy,but it like makes me feel so
proud to be a woman and like ofall of this, all these books,
obviously they're not, they'renot very female focus.
So to have this moment is justso nice after so many books of
like, granted galadriel being soheavily respected and admired
(09:49):
and putting her hands and thingsand like really affecting the
plot, um, but it's usually fromafar, right from above or
whatever.
This is so direct and impactfuland I just like, I just love it
so much.
Jessica (10:02):
And really inspirational.
Galadriel is otherworldly andkind of set apart, whereas Eowyn
is a much more relatablecharacter in that way.
I can't think of a single womanthat I know that can't relate
to some level of dissatisfactionwith their lot in life or any
(10:23):
of a hundred different aspectsof aowen's journey in these
books.
Kritter (10:27):
Um and so for her to have that moment is just
genuinely inspirational yeah,yeah, she wanted the, she wanted
to fight, and I don't want tosay she wanted the glory, but
she really wanted the fight andshe got the fight and she
absolutely dominated.
So that was awesome.
Yay, cheers to eowyn.
Yeah, um, so eowyn then nextslays the fell beast, chopping
(10:50):
its head clean off, lightfalling about her and her hair
shining like sunrise.
But the witch king is notdeterred, rising up and letting
fall his mace, shattering hershield and breaking her arm.
By the time he raises his maceagain to kill mary has crawled
within striking distance andgets him in the knee with his
(11:12):
sword, giving a one an openingto stab the witch king straight
into the void where his faceshould be.
The sword broke, sparkling intomany shards, the witch king
wailed and crumbled intonothingness and Eowyn fell to
the ground.
So this was a this, was this?
This?
This lot happened there.
How do you feel about it?
Jessica (11:32):
Um, I, I loved it, but it was crazy.
And so I definitely, throughthis part of the read, was like
I really need to rewatch thesemovies, like I really don't
remember how the battle scenesgo down, because guess what,
even when I'm watching media I'mnot a battle's girl I'm like I
(11:56):
kind of remember, you know, marygoing to war with her.
I don't really remember whathappens, you know, when the
baddie shows up.
So I'm looking forward to that.
I'm looking forward to thatexperience to rewatch and see
how that was portrayed on thescreen, because I was like I
(12:16):
guess I didn't realize that Maryhad stabbed him.
Kritter (12:28):
Um, and and then, above and beyond that, that led into
a passage that I had marked asmommy for this chapter.
Okay, sorry, I thought you saidmommy and I was like oh yes,
absolutely, but.
Jessica (12:34):
but literary mommy?
Sure, that too, but alsoliterary umami.
Um so, and it's not.
It's not like pretty scenery,it's something different.
Uh, so, past the sword of thebarrow downs, work of westerness
, but glad would he have been toknow its fate.
(12:56):
Who wrought it slowly, long agoin the north kingdom, when the
dunedain were young, and chiefamong their foes was the dread
realm of Angmar and its sorcererking.
No other blade not thoughmightier hands had wielded it
would have dealt that foe.
A wound so bitter, cleaving theundead flesh, breaking the
(13:16):
spell that knit unseen sinews tohis will.
And I just was like that's ahell of a paragraph.
I don't care who you are, whoyou're rooting for, I'm like
that is dang.
Kritter (13:30):
That is a paragraph specifically for this exact
moment, essentially way, way,way before this moment was ever
contemplated.
Do you enjoy happy coincidenceslike this or do they take you
(13:50):
out of the story being like tooconvenient?
No, I love it.
It's like payoff, it's likepayoff.
Jessica (13:55):
I immediately wanted to go back and read about the
Barrow-White passage againBecause I was like, did we know?
Because obviously I rememberthem getting gifted the swords.
I think Tom handed them off tothem.
(14:19):
Yeah, you know, I think didn't?
Kritter (14:21):
they didn't like comment on the sword too, or
somebody commented on the swordand he had to be like yeah, I
got this in in a really terribleplace that I don't actually
want to talk about, like I feellike that happened at some point
.
Jessica (14:33):
That sounds right.
Kritter (14:35):
So yeah, we we got, we got the sword.
We got like a hint that thesword was like pretty cool.
Oh, maybe it was whenever hewas getting armored by eowyn.
That might have been when ithappened, because it's like I've
already got a sword you knowsomething I I'd have to look
back, but anyways, now I agreethat this does feel much like a
lot like a payoff, yes, like theswords actually tie into
everything.
It also to me again wheel oftime, girly, forgive me.
(14:57):
There's a concept in the wheelof time called taverin, where
it's like the pattern which iskind of like reality itself,
kind of like shapes.
It shapes itself around certainindividuals and those
individuals are called taverin.
Right, and taverin areimportant to like making the
world do the things it'ssupposed to do.
That was a terrible way tophrase it, but anyways, it does
(15:19):
feel very much like.
You know, the pattern was likeshaping itself around mary in
that way to give him the swordso that he could land in that
particular place at thatparticular time.
To make the Witch King stumbleso that Eowyn could finish him
off.
So yeah, it didn't take me outof it at all, it actually made
me more intrigued.
Yeah, no, I loved it.
Jessica (15:38):
As soon as it said Barrow Downs, I'm like that's
right, that's a special sword.
Kritter (15:44):
Yep, yeah, so that was uh, yeah, no, I, I dug it.
Fan of that.
Um, okay, so mary is the onlyone up still.
Right, eowyn has fallen.
Theoden is under his horse, um,but he manages to talk with
theoden, who is dying.
Aomer also eventually makes hisway over and is a designated
designated theoden successorbefore he notices eowyn and
(16:07):
absolutely eluses it.
So do you have any standoutmoments from these final moments
with theoden am or any of that?
Jessica (16:16):
um, I did cry when theoden said and when you sit in
peace with your pipe, think ofme.
It did make me cry.
And I think that the flip sideof that is that Eowyn was
(16:37):
heartbroken.
Sorry, eomer was heartbrokenabout Eowyn, but in the very
kind of cliched stereotype ofwhat are you doing here?
You're supposed to be back home, right?
(16:57):
So that vibe came through.
I don't really feel that vibewith Aragorn.
To a lesser extent I felt it alittle bit with Theoden, just
that.
You know, this is your role,this is your place.
Kritter (17:10):
Yeah.
Jessica (17:11):
Which grinds, you know, like that chafafes.
But also there's some truth tothat, yeah a immerse.
Reaction to eowyn's presence onthe battlefield was a little
bit more of that almostdismissive.
You have no business here, evenin loss, even in mourning.
Um, so that and, and maybe thatwas a stretch, but that is kind
(17:35):
of how it hit.
Kritter (17:37):
Yeah, no, that's fair.
That's totally fair.
I did notice.
Did you notice did you flagthis?
That Théoden, when he wastalking about how he could join
his ancestors and be proud, hesaid that he felled the Black
Serpent.
Did you notice that?
Jessica (17:53):
And I was like what, what are you taking credit?
Kritter (17:59):
I well, I was really confused by that.
Um, please, anybody in thecomments correct me if I read
that wrong.
But and granted, like fine, youknow, let a dying man believe
what he believes.
But at the same time, like no,you did not.
Eowyn felt the serpent,assuming the serpent you're
talking about is the flyingbeast, like you know.
(18:21):
Um, although I guess, likepeople who are in charge,
sometimes take credit for thethings their subordinates do?
Jessica (18:28):
I think he's talking about the flag, the flag hold on
one second.
So this is why I love my kindle.
I can google, I can see wordsearch, please, so in um the
page before uh-huh, it talksabout yes, he's talking about
the serpent banner.
So, oh god, thank goodness okaythis is so embarrassing Because
(18:53):
, honestly, I went out with likemad props for Theoden.
You know we would come in andgo out of a story without any
ick.
So that would have been ick forme.
Kritter (19:04):
That's why I brought it up, because I was like no, you
did not just take credit forthat Serpent banner, so it
sounds like those forces have astandard with a black serpent
upon scarlet uh and he hadfelled the person or he had made
it.
Jessica (19:22):
You know, made the standard bearer drop it.
So he, that's what he meant.
Kritter (19:27):
Thank you kindle and thank you, jessica, for looking
that up.
That makes me feel so muchbetter.
Jessica (19:32):
No, no, no, we're not stealing credit, we're not going
out that way.
Kritter (19:37):
So anyways, now I'm very happy for him okay, he went
out the way he wanted to go outand I'm not confused at all
anymore.
Good job, van, and you did earnyour place in the halls of your
ancestors.
Um, so then, also in that am orlike that did give me a little
bit of like.
He is like oh my god, thoughit's this woman, she's not
(19:59):
supposed to be here, butwhatever.
And then he goes into thiscrazy rage, um, but we get a
cool line from him and he says Ibelieve this is something that
feyadin says in the movie, buthe says death, ride to ruin and
the world's ending and there'sno more songs now from from the.
Uh men of rohan just calls fordeath.
(20:19):
And that was like kind ofchilling, I don't know.
I kind of liked that, eventhough the inspiration for it
was a little mid, but the waythey went for it it was kind of
epic right amir is very much awarrior, yeah.
Jessica (20:35):
So the next piece, the next note that I have is that
they actually they draw, theydug a grave for snow main, yeah,
and, and I appreciated that.
Kritter (20:45):
Yeah, but I noted that too, except it made me sad that
his grave it had a nice littlerhyme on it, but one of the
things in the rhyme is that hewas his master's bane, rip I
don't know.
Jessica (20:59):
It seems unfair to me.
Years and years of good service, you fall down one time right.
Kritter (21:04):
You get hit with a dart , you get shot, fall down one
time and you are your master'sbane and it's on your grave.
Jessica (21:12):
Like that's inappropriate that's not how
I'll remember snowmane for whatit's worth good me either.
Kritter (21:20):
It just made me, made me sad for him that that was how
he's going to be remembered.
Um rip snowmane, rip theoden,yeah, yeah.
So at the end of this chapter,the corsairs of umbar.
Corsairs are ships, just incase anyone was wondering.
To the dismay of the good guysand delight of the bad, until
(21:43):
Eomer catches sight of thebanner flying from the head ship
, aragorn had arrived and bynightfall the battle was over
and the bad guys vanquished,though the good guys had also
suffered many casualties.
That's it, final thoughts.
Jessica (22:02):
I had written down.
I had another little piece ofumami towards the end of the
chapter where it said it seemedthat all things wept for Theoden
and Eow aoin quenching thefires in the city with gray
tears oh and I just thought thatthat was very touching yeah, I
(22:22):
think and then my last bulletwas just she's alive she's alive
.
Kritter (22:29):
I tell you what, like tol, and rightfully so, knows
how to hit the right tone whenit comes to a battle.
Right, it's not epic Well, someof it is but it's not all epic,
it's not all glory.
There's a lot of darkness andsadness and slower moments that
(22:53):
don't always get talked about.
I don't think so.
I think he really captured,like as far as me not being a
Battles girly, I'm not but thereare certain moments throughout
this thing where he really likehooked me in a way that I don't
think many people would have,just because he made it more
real, I think.
Jessica (23:12):
And I think those beats in between, those breaths are
kind of what stand out to me, atleast, the most when I'm making
my notes.
Not that there isn't epicaction, to your point, but the
fact that he switches up therhythm and those quieter moments
, those more somber moments,those smaller moments, whatever
(23:34):
it might be making room forthose really ups the read.
For me, yeah, absolutely 100%.
Kritter (23:43):
All right.
Book five, chapter seven thePyre of Denethor, Deep breaths.
Jessica (23:51):
You ready for this one?
This chapter was hard man.
Kritter (23:55):
Okay.
So pippin finally finds gandalfand recounts what was happening
with denethor and faramir.
Gandalf hesitates, knowing thathelping faramir would
ultimately hurt other people,but he ultimately decides to
help faramir and when he andpippin find the gate guard slain
, he notes that friends warringwith friends, was exactly what
(24:17):
the enemy wanted.
So we've talked about Gandalfbeing the insight king.
Did this ethical dilemma hefaced or observation he made
about the enemy hit you in anyparticular way.
Jessica (24:31):
I feel as though it was almost premonitory for the rest
of the chapter.
Um, you know about the enemygetting his way.
The thing that hit me the moston this open this this early
part is, I had the realization,as gandalf was saying it um that
he really is functioning on alevel that he has to pick and
(24:56):
choose where he places hisenergy Because by choosing to
leave the battlefield, he knowsthat they likely will you know,
they might still win the day,but they'll likely take on more
casualties.
Or you know, he has to reallypick and choose where he puts
his energy because he could beleaving somebody else in a very
(25:17):
precarious spot and, not to makehim sound clinical, there are
many important pieces on theboard in theory.
So how do you pick and choose inthat moment which one is the
most important?
And so he essentially made thatcomment about you know, if I
(25:38):
leave the field now there, youknow people will pay, but
there's no one else to helpFaramir, so I must go Right.
I got kind of chills about it.
I was like Ooh yeah, no, whenyou know that if I walk away
away, I might be able to helpthis person, but this person or
this group of people will nothave the benefit of my help and
(26:00):
it's going to make their jobthat much harder right.
Kritter (26:03):
It's giving trolley problem a little.
You know a little bit.
It's like you have.
Do you pull the lever right, doyou change your trajectory in
order to save a different person?
Um, and it also kind ofreminded me of if we've got any
gamers listening.
Um, kind of like he's the greatgeneral right in civ
civilization, the game, and he'skind of just like where do I,
(26:26):
you know, where do I go?
Because I'm clearly someonewho's going to affect the, the
pace, the tide, whatever abattle, and just having to make
that decision is so brutal, likewhat a brutal way to live.
Like my decisions are going tolike affect lives, like lives
will be lost based on the thingsthat I'm doing.
Jessica (26:46):
That's brutal and I'll go even further to say he was
that important the whole time.
I just don't feel like I hadcultivated that insight until he
actually pointed it out nowthat he's essentially acting as
a general, yeah, and there is,you know, direct combat with the
enemy forces.
It's just that much moreblatant, right?
(27:07):
Oh yeah, no, he wasn'toverstating his importance, sure
not sure, not.
Kritter (27:14):
So it turns out that baragond had managed to hold the
servants at bay, having to slaya couple of them, and about the
time denethor came for him,gandalf arrived, magicked
denethor's sword from his handdid you notice that he, like,
raised his hand and the swordflew, amazing and carried
faramir, who he found covered infuneral oils at the top of a
(27:35):
pyre, out of the chamber.
So we're talking like fantasynovel or like a romance novel.
Cover Gandalf holding Faramirin his arms carrying him out of
this.
Any thoughts about thissequence?
Jessica (27:50):
I go back to what I said before, that Faramir must
be important If Gandalf'swilling to spend this kind of
energy to save him not that alllife isn't important.
Um, he physically picked him upand removed him from the danger
.
I feel like that speaks volumes.
Kritter (28:06):
Yeah, and we always talk about how old Gandalf is,
how wise he is, but I love whenTolkien reminds us like he's
also pretty spry, never forgethe is.
Jessica (28:16):
But I love when tolkien reminds us like he's also
pretty spry.
Never forget he can jump.
Don't actually know how old heis, like it's really just a
question mark, but he's strongenough to pick up a full-grown
warrior right, just walk aroundwith him right, yeah, once again
very impressed with gandalf.
Kritter (28:29):
That's basically where what I took from this little
sequence and uh, and then wefind out, some tea denethor has
a palantir that has basicallyrobbed him of all hope right
zaron couldn't like influencehim quite as much as he could.
They had in, but he could showhim exactly what he wanted to
(28:49):
see, making him just despondenthe admits, denet admits he had
no intention of giving rule overto Isildur's heir.
And when he tries to get atFaramir again, Baragond steps
between them.
Ultimately, Denethor takes thepalantir and burns himself on
the pyre.
How are we feeling?
Jessica (29:11):
Well, first off, all in caps, denethor, you, no good
dirty dog, I knew you had one, Ijust flipping knew it.
That is literally what my notessay.
Yep, so called it.
Kritter (29:25):
You did you did.
Jessica (29:28):
And then there was another, so I have to give it to
him.
Though there was one quote fromDenethor that I thought was
quote worthy, um, so, as he'sgoing through his tirade, he
says but if doom denies this tome, then I will have not neither
life diminished, nor lovehalved, nor honor abated.
(29:50):
Um, and so, as much as, evenright up until the very end, I
truly disliked Denethor.
I thought it was a killer quote.
Kritter (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the guy he's uh, I don't want to say
he's got style, but like he isa complicated man, he is that
way, um.
Jessica (30:12):
And then I wrote you know, crazy SOB is that way, um.
And then I wrote you know,crazy sob, he really did it.
He hopped right up there.
Um, it felt a little bit morehorrific, bear with me.
It felt more horrific becauseit felt like it took longer for
him to die, because it took thetime it took for me to read it
as opposed to watching it doesthat make any sense?
Kritter (30:32):
it?
Jessica (30:32):
absolutely does.
Yeah, it's to watching it.
Does that make any sense at all?
It absolutely does, yeah.
It's like watching it in slowmotion and it's horrifying and
I'm like, oh my God, I'm aterrible person.
Yeah, so yeah.
And then you know afterwards hegave a great cry, spoke no more
, nor was ever seen again bymortal men.
(30:53):
And so my last thoughts aboutDenethor kind of come back to
Boromir.
So I am willing to believe ourfriend Don Marshall, obscure
Lord of the Rings guy, thatBoromir had a rough gig after
(31:15):
meeting his dad.
Yeah, fair, he definitely had atough gig.
Um, and I just I think any anydislike I had towards Boromir
has shifted squarely to Denethor.
I think Denethor is the onlycharacter that I have met
(31:36):
throughout the whole series,short of Libidia Sackville
Baggins.
That I just can't stand.
Kritter (31:45):
Never forget the Sackville Baggins.
Never forgive an SB, so true soyeah, that's how I feel about
him, um, and I think it's worthnoting they said that if anyone
like tried to use his palantirfrom then on, they just would,
unless they have like an insanemastery hands there would be
(32:05):
scary old man burning hands thatthey see, and that'd be it.
So he basically rendered one ofthe palantir obsolete, except
for people like, I assume,gandalf, galadriel, elrond, like
the strongest willed people,and that's it.
Because, yeah, he, uh, hecorrupted it, yeah, by doing
(32:26):
what he did there.
So he really went out with a uh, with a bang Um.
But I do appreciate how in themovie they had him like run off
the end of the thing.
That was very cinematic, butthe way they did it in the books
was very haunting.
So I kind of like that thedifferent mediums chose
different ways to do it.
Personally, um, also, I want tosay that this, this all made me
(32:51):
really sad for baragond, but italso made me really proud, um,
because he had to kill severalof his kinsmen right in order to
save faramir.
So he was just, he is a I don'twant to say king's man.
He is a son of a steward's manlike he really respected but so
loyal, um, and.
(33:11):
And he even got between denethorand faramir, even though
denethor was like the ultimateauthority for him technically,
like he this is a uh, what wouldyou say?
Chaotic good right, like hewasn't going to follow orders if
it meant doing the wrong thing.
So, so, anyways, mad respectfor bear.
Jessica (33:29):
God, basically shout out to bear and think about how
scary that is for him as aperson who is, you know,
essentially in a servant roleand defying his master out of
loyalty for Faramir.
Yeah, um, yeah, I, I had.
I had strong feelings for bearGod.
I was very proud of him forstanding up in that way, because
(33:53):
it's such a hard thing to doyeah, as a regular person that
man deserves a promotion and araise, correct, I think,
personally.
Kritter (34:02):
Once faramir takes over um.
So they bring faramir to thehouses of healing.
Uh, the Witch King falls from adistance and Gandalf uses his
sights to understand what allhad gone down, the good and the
bad and understands that hemight have been able to prevent
some of the tragedy had he beenthere.
(34:22):
I'm assuming you know Eowyn's,like Theoden maybe.
Even I find it interesting thatTolkien took the time to point
this out.
We kind of talked about thisalready.
Why do you think he might'vedone that?
Jessica (34:37):
I think, follow through .
Honestly.
You know for a person that I'venever met in my life, but he
seems you know, if nothing elsethrough the readings, he seems
very meticulous and that it'salmost resource allocation.
So Gandalf, as a resource andtalking about from a strategic
(34:58):
perspective, the impact thatthat has when you move such a
powerful resource from one pointof the conflict to another, and
that's going to haveramifications and I can honestly
believe that as somebody whowas in the military.
He wanted to show his workright.
He wanted to show that there isan impact, there are
consequences when you make thesechoices.
Kritter (35:20):
Yeah, so true, because if we didn't pick up earlier,
you know Gandalf sitting therebeing like I have to choose
Faramir because I'm the only onewho can help.
Now we know what the impact was.
Yeah, they had and may havedied because of this.
So it's a.
It was a drastic choice, um,but he had to make it, basically
.
Um, so we wrap up this chapterGandalf and Pippin heading back
(35:43):
to the lower city and Baragondheading to turn himself in and
then volunteer to guard faramir,if they'll let him.
Jessica (35:50):
Any thoughts before we move on um, there are two spots
in this chapter where they referto gandalf as a white light in
a dark place and a?
Um a figure carven in white ashe stood in the new sun and
looked out.
So just the imagery is beingreally kind of leaned into um
(36:14):
with Gandalf as a figure inwhite.
Just noteworthy that twice inone chapter that that is very
much being pointed out.
I think it's because we're upagainst the enemy's forces and
so we're seeing figures of darkand this is the counterbalance
to that.
Kritter (36:32):
That makes sense.
I like it Okay.
Book five, chapter eight theHouses of Healing.
So Mary accompanied theprocession carrying Theoden and
Eowyn into the city, and thiswas the vibe To Mary the ascent
seemed age-long, a meaninglessjourney and a hateful dream
(36:53):
going on and on to some dimending that memory cannot seize.
So this didn't seem like a veryhobbity attitude to me.
What did you make?
Jessica (37:06):
of it, um, I made of it that he had just had the most
dramatic, scary encounter of hislife, and he is shook to his
core yeah um, it's really hardto maintain that hobbit silver
(37:28):
lining attitude in the face oftrue evil which he was literally
facing down.
Kritter (37:35):
Yeah Hours previous, that's fair.
So Pippin finds Mary wanderingin the streets, having been
separated from the procession inthis days that he was in.
He comforts him and insists ontaking him to the houses of
healing too.
Were you relieved at thisreunion, and I guess did you
also have the sense that Marywas injured in some way?
Jessica (38:00):
So it does say straight out he can't use his right arm,
right.
Um, and first off, I cried Maryand Pippin reuniting again.
I cried, yeah, I cried.
I'm like, oh my God, he foundhim.
It's not always a misfortunebeing overlooked.
There's a comment made by Mary.
I liked that, I noted that, Ithink that that goes very hand
(38:23):
in hand with Hobbit life.
Hobbit life and then Pippinabout Mary.
His heart was wrung with fearand pity.
So I've been on the recordmultiple times saying I trust
their instinct and Pippin knowssomething's wrong with his
friend.
So all of that taken together,I do feel like there's some
(38:45):
actual danger facing Mary, likehe's not quite out of the woods
yet, and so I felt the sameimpetus as Pippin, like let's
get him to a healer, let's gethim looked at and see what else
could be going on.
Kritter (39:01):
Yeah, the thing that really killed me was when Mary
asked Pippin if he was going tobury him.
Oh God, I know it's like for ahobbit to be like are you gonna
bury me?
Essentially, it's just sofreaking sad.
Um, because they're just likethey're of all the races,
they're the ones that kind ofmaintain the spark, the hope
(39:22):
textbook trauma response thoughit really is not to bring too
much reality into our fantasy,but it's very like can you check
in on my wife?
Jessica (39:34):
Can you make sure that my son makes it to graduation?
Those are all very real thingsthat happen.
Can you check my garden?
Whatever it might be, it mightseem trivial to somebody else,
but it's very real in the momentwhere you're just like, oh, I'm
not going to be there anymore.
Who's gonna?
Who's gonna do X, y or Z?
(39:55):
Yeah, and you know that is hisvery dear friend, you know.
Kritter (40:01):
I think this is another , another example of Tolkien
being like yeah, this is whatit's like, like it's not all,
just you know gunshots and likecool explosions.
Right, there's the peopleinvolved, and they all get
affected in some way or another,some worse than others, and
mary was clearly very affected.
Um, and then gandalf finds themboth and admits that the world
(40:25):
would be far worse off if elrondhadn't convinced him to let
them come with the fellowship.
That was a really nice thing tohear, so heartwarming.
I appreciated that a lot.
Yeah, so we find out there'sthis black shadow, an illness
related to the Nazgul.
It laid heavy on Merry andEowyn and Faramir was burning
(40:47):
with a fever.
I kind of thought it was sortof less related to the Black
Shadow.
I gathered the eldest of thehealing women wept at Faramir's
dire state, wishing that therewere still kings of Gondor, as
quote the hands of the king arethe hands of a healer, and so
the rightful king could ever beknown.
Gandalf, being inspired by this, strikes out and after having
(41:09):
spent the remainder of the daytending to the sick sorry, he
strikes out after having spentthe remainder of the day tending
to the six.
So he had removed himself fromthe battlefield and was just
really trying to work with thesick people.
Aragorn initially did notintend to come into the city
right away, but agreed to comeas a ranger not a king to help
with the sick when Gandalffetched him and help.
He does Thoughts aboutAragorn's time in the Houses of
(41:33):
Healing.
Jessica (41:34):
He's a freaking healer man.
Like I don't even know what todo with that information, so I
certainly don't remember everhearing that plot point before.
I feel like that's brand newinformation for me.
Yeah, also the fact that theyuse the Athelos, the king's foil
again plot point before.
I feel like that's brand newinformation for me.
Also the fact that they used theaphelos, the king's foil again,
(41:57):
I very much liked that, so Ihad written down this is a
nothing weed that he uses toheal.
Even in the last instance wherethey used it, they were like I,
it's a weed, so I like that.
It's something small andinnocuous, like a Hobbit that
(42:18):
that he can use to heal them.
And just you know, genuinelyhe's laying on hands and casting
away the shadow.
Yeah, it's wild Magical.
Kritter (42:32):
I thought it was so funny how, speaking of like it's
just being a weed, Like all ofthese old folks came in and
they're talking to him aboutthis king's foil and they're
like, well, it's worthless.
It was so funny to me but alsoso frustrating, Like just go
find it, my God.
Like what else are we going todo?
They even had a rhyme about hishealing properties and
(42:55):
everybody's just like but that'sjust a rhyme, it's not real
life.
My god, just do it.
I know Even Gandalf was like,if you just go?
He snapped at him.
I was like that is me, gandalfis me right now.
So he goes to Faramir first,right, and then uh, gan or sorry
.
Faramir woke up after aragorndoes his healing thing with the
(43:17):
king's foil and he immediatelyrecognized him as the king which
I freaking loved.
Highly satisfying faramir seesall you know what mean.
He's so wise and he proved itright here.
I don't know, did you enjoythat part?
Jessica (43:32):
I loved it.
I loved it.
So I feel as though Faramir isthe best parts of his dad.
So Faramir has that long sightability and that nobility that
comes from their old bloodlines,and he is a much better version
of that.
The other thing that I reallyloved about this inner exchange
(43:58):
was at the end he asks his kingwhat he can do and he tells him
to be ready when I return, whichis just another great reminder
that we're not even halfwaythrough the book yet.
This isn't even the climax.
Yeah, so I thought it waslovely.
I thought it was wonderful, andFaramir just continues to live
(44:23):
up to the hype.
Kritter (44:24):
Yeah, aragorn then proceeds to Eowyn and uh and
like brings her back but leavesbefore she wakes up.
And it was to me just soblatantly like I don't want to
leave this woman on.
So, amr, you take over, I'm I'mgonna go do my thing elsewhere.
How did you feel about that?
Jessica (44:43):
um, I liked that there was a phrase there was a quote
here, I think, think by Aragorn,who says but who knows what?
She spoke to the darkness alone, in their bitter watches of the
night, when all her life seemedshrinking and the walls of her
bower closing in about her ahutch to trammel some wild thing
in.
So I really loved that phrasebecause relatable.
(45:06):
I do do some of my worstthinking in the middle of the
night, when you know I make upghosts and things like that.
Um, so you know, seeminglyacknowledging her plight in life
and how it might affect her andhow all of us are our own worst
enemies at the late hours ofthe night.
Yeah, um.
(45:27):
And then, after this, though,aragorn talks about aoin and a
love that cannot be returned,and I was just like dang, does
that mean tolkien was trying todo the romance before?
Kritter (45:44):
I think so yeah.
Jessica (45:47):
I know, so that's a thing.
Kritter (45:50):
Yeah, there was a love triangle in the Lord of the
Rings.
Jessica (45:53):
Okay, Moving on.
Kritter (46:00):
Okay, moving on.
That happened All right.
So then, this is.
This was a bright spot in thischapter, I think, for me.
Mary wakes up after Irrigorncomes to him and immediately
says that he's hungry.
When's dinner?
So on brand, such a relief,though he did say that he never
wanted to smoke again because itwould make him think of Théoden
(46:22):
, which was so sad.
I really liked Aragorn's advicehere here, though, to smoke and
think of him, which is whatthey hadn't said, and uh it's.
It's interesting to me that maryended up the pipe weed, lore
master, after like hesitating toever smoke again.
You know what I mean, if, ofcourse, if the prologue of the
fellowship, if you remember, wasany indication.
So how did you feel about thesequence with mary and the
(46:44):
healing and the, and the dinnerthoughts and the smoking?
Jessica (46:48):
loved it.
I also noted that his firstthought was food and I was like
okay, full recovery.
Kritter (46:52):
I love that story we're good.
Jessica (46:53):
We're good, we're fine.
The lore master on the smoke isinteresting to me now because I
like the fact that I feel thatso often our friends help us
find ways to process events froma different perspective, and so
I love the fact that Aragornkind of did that for him, gave
(47:15):
him another perspective, and itso closely echoed what Theoden
said to him that he was able totake that and kind of digest
that feedback.
So I loved that, digest thatfeedback.
So I loved that.
The last thought that I hadfrom this chapter was the
(47:36):
exclamation may the Shire liveforever unwithered.
So everything about this was agreat note to end it on, because
this was a heavy kind ofsection with some serious combat
for our povs that we are seeinghere yeah so it's some pretty
serious stuff, so it was nice toend on a high note, for sure so
(48:00):
yeah, for the end of thechapter.
Kritter (48:01):
Aragorn is pursued by the people of the city and
spends most of the night healingwounds alongside elrond's sons.
He is given the name elfstoneby the people because of the
night healing wounds alongsideElrond's sons.
He is given the name Elfstoneby the people because of the
green stone that he wore, whichhad been foretold at his birth.
And when he was well and trulyexhausted he went back to sleep
in his tent outside of the city.
Just, king, you know.
(48:23):
Crown removed.
And that's it for the chapter.
So, any final final thoughtsbefore we pick an MVP?
And that's it for the chapter.
Jessica (48:29):
So any final, final thoughts before we pick an mvp?
Um, there was one last hobbitnod in there where somebody
referred to them as very toughin the fiber and I freaking
loved that yeah, aragorn's likefair mirror can't leave for 10
days or whatever.
Kritter (48:46):
Eowyn same same, same, same, um, but m same.
But, merry, he can go on a walktomorrow.
He'll be okay Dang.
Okay, that's amazing.
Jessica (48:55):
Yeah, also, though, I feel like it speaks to
sensibility, right, like Merry'snot going to immediately go out
and try to spit in Sauron's eye, so I think there's a
sensibility piece that goes withthat as well.
I don't know that I feel thesame about Eowyn or even Faramir
, to be fair.
Kritter (49:14):
That's fair, I guess.
Yeah, you can trust Mary totake it easy, more or less,
without really needing that manyinstructions to do so.
So it's a good point.
Okay, all right, that's a goodpoint.
Okay, all right.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
(49:34):
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (49:42):
I know we say it every time, but it was so, so hard.
Kritter (49:47):
Okay, no, not every time.
Sometimes we pick the same onesand it's relatively
straightforward Last week brutal, this week maybe more brutal.
Like harder even still.
Jessica (50:00):
Okay, I'm just going to say it.
Okay, I picked Aragorn becausehe was the group medic and he
brought people back to life.
That we need for the rest of thejourney.
So that was my logic, but I hadstrong feelings about both
Eowyn and Mary as honorablementions in this chapter in this
(50:23):
section.
Yeah, this chapter in thissection.
Yeah, cause I was like this is,but I finally gave it up
because I was like Aragornbrought people back that we,
that are clearly important,we're going to need them going
forward.
Um, so that's, that's how Icame down.
How about you?
Kritter (50:44):
I'm glad you picked him because he was my runner up,
which, I feel like, is whathappened last week.
I am, eric, was my runner upbecause of all the things you
said, plus him showing up in theCorsairs, like everybody
thinking it's the bad guy, andit's him pretty awesome.
Excuse me, but I think wedidn't give a shout out.
You didn't give a shout out.
Obviously there's so manypossible honorable mentions in
(51:07):
this chapter, because there'salso Gandalf, who jumped but got
faramir down from the pyre,right, but without baragon he
would he would have been deadalready.
So there's a baragon too, umand uh, yeah.
So ultimately, though, my mvpis my MVP is Eowyn, because the
Witch King was the leader of thearmies, right, and when he went
(51:32):
down, that more or less to mekind of signaled the tide
turning, even though Aragornshowing up was also a very
helpful thing to have happened,but she took down one of the
primary foes.
Yeah, on the side of the dark.
It was hard, man, it was a hardchoice, and she did so with the
(51:55):
assist for Mary.
So again like.
Jessica (51:58):
Mary.
Kritter (51:58):
I was like I don't know how I'm not giving it up for
Eowyn and Mary, but yeah, um,but yeah, just the fact that she
was there, the iconic line, thefact that she was there, the
iconic line, the fact that, youknow, hashtag feminism finally
shows up, lord of the rings, allof it was just really, really,
really satisfying and so I wentwith her, even though aragorn
(52:21):
did, did, did the most he did.
He did equally the most toeowyn.
Basically, they're so neck andneck here it's wild.
So, yeah, let us know in thecomments or on Discord how you
feel about MVP.
You could literally pick one ofI don't know six people and I'd
be like, yeah, that soundsright.
Jessica (52:40):
So I'm really curious.
Kritter (52:41):
I'm really curious what you all pick.
Jessica (52:43):
Yeah, yeah, please shoot us messages and tell us
how wrong we are, because welove it.
It's our favorite game.
Kritter (52:50):
Absolutely my favorite.
Jessica (52:52):
So that's it for us for this week.
So for next week, we're goingto ask you to read book five,
chapters nine and 10.
So you're finishing book fivefor next week, and we want to
say thank you so much for tuninginto episode three of season
four of but are there dragonsbrought to you by your hosts,
jessica Sadai and Critter XD?
(53:12):
Please don't forget to followus at.
But are there dragons onYouTube, instagram and Tik TOK
and?
But dragons pod?
Just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as Critter xd and
shelf indulgence.
That's it for us today.
We are going to continue toworkshop new catchphrases
(53:34):
through season four, so let usknow on socials how you feel
about this one.
You are weary.
Rest a while and take food andbe ready when we return bye, bye
.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess.
And we're continuing thisadventure with the Return of the
King by JRR Tolkien, with me asthe resident Lord of the Rings
veteran and me as the Lord ofthe Rings first timer.
(00:26):
Rings veteran and me as the Lordof the Rings first timer In
this, our third episode ofseason four.
We're going to discuss bookfive, chapters six through eight
.
Now, before we dive in, jessica, as always, what's new with you
?
Anything, anything happening.
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:38):
I feel good.
We had our WatCon time.
It was a time to be had, it waswonderful, and now you know
we're home and we're taking abreath and it sounds really
silly, but it's my first time asa homeowner we are legitimately
watching grass grow.
We had grass planted and we arewatching it grow.
(00:59):
So that's what we're doing,because we're super cool.
Kritter (01:03):
You know what I feel like.
Samwise Gamgee would love tohear that.
He would be fascinated.
Do you know what kind of grassit is?
Oh gosh, no, no, whatever kind.
Jessica (01:11):
the landscaper thought we had really good odds at
growing.
It was a little rough backthere so we called in
professional help because I amnot a Samwise.
So I needed help.
How about you?
Well, I'm not a.
Samwise, so I needed help.
How about you?
Kritter (01:26):
Well, I'm not a Samwise either.
I still have a snake plant inmy office that hasn't died yet
and I've actually propagated itright, because that's one of the
easiest plants you canpropagate and that's the extent
of my green thumb Literally Iwill kill it.
I've killed cactuses before,legitimately, so yeah, I respect
(01:48):
the landscapers for sure.
I think Wat Con was amazing.
I had such a good time.
It's good to be home.
Obviously, the con what do theycall that?
The come down off the con isrough right.
Jessica (01:59):
Con drop.
Kritter (02:00):
Con drop.
Yeah, you feel like you're sorevved up, and high on life all
weekend and then you get homeand it didn't help that I got
home at like 1.30 am my time,which was 2.30 am con time
because of some delays in myflight, so oh, that hurt on
Monday, but it's fine.
(02:20):
I'm fine now, so ready to talkabout this, this here book, if
you are sweet I am okay, let'sdive in book five, chapter six,
the battle of pelennor fields.
But it was no orc chieftain orbrigand that led the assault
upon gondor.
The darkness was breaking toosoon before the date that his
(02:42):
master had set for it.
Fortune had betrayed him forthe moment, and that, and the
world had turned against him.
Victory was slipping from hisgrasp even as he stretched out
his hand to seize it.
But his arm was long.
He was still in command,working great powers, king, ring
wraith, lord of the nazgul, hemany weapons.
He left the gate and vanished.
(03:05):
Was this our first Nazgul POV,and how did you feel about it?
Jessica (03:12):
I think it was actually I think so.
I have a note next to thissection that you know said in
the voice of like a TikTok audio.
I didn't know it could do that,so I don't think I've made any
bones about I didn't know thatthere was a Lord Nazgul, a king
(03:36):
ringwraith, as it were.
I did not know that they hadanything in a hierarchy and then
just the up and vanished.
I was like, oh, excuse me, oh,we got skills.
Kritter (03:48):
Okay, noted it's feeling very merge all from the
wheel of time right, like theycan disappear into shadows
according to the lower.
Yeah.
I already had that from thePelennor fields thing, which I
won't go into, but I was likethat name sounds very
reminiscent and yeah grammarnerd in me, maybe, but starting
(04:29):
a sentence, starting a chapterwith but like, which is ironic
because I guess our, our podcastname is butter their dragons,
but but when I read that in thisbook, in this chapter, I was
just kind of like surprised bythe style because he hasn't
really utilized it yet.
But it was so good, right,because it was like the last we
heard of him.
It was the horns were blowing,there was a standoff with
(04:50):
gandalf right, and then the hornstarted blowing right, and so
we had to wait a week.
But the next step was this butit was no or chief tan, so I
don't know.
I thought it was fun, I thoughtit was a cool way to phrase it,
cool way to do it personally.
Jessica (05:06):
Yeah, the next part I did not like as much because it
talks about how they feed theNazgul's ride and they nursed it
with fell meats and I like justeverything about that.
Gave me the ick.
Yeah, so kudos, because I'msure that was the intention.
(05:26):
I have no doubt that that wason purpose.
Good job, yeah, very gross,super gross.
Kritter (05:33):
Nazgul, creepy, powerful, intimidating, magical
and gross.
Yeah.
So Théoden's company, whoshowed up, horns a-blazin', is
just laying waste to thosearound him.
When the Lord of the Nazgulshows up, Theoden's mount
Snowmane, a black dart, havingpierced him, fell on his side,
(05:56):
pinning Theoden beneath him.
And to add insult to injury,the Witch King's giant flying
mount flew down and literallysettled on Snowmane, claws
digging in.
So things are not looking goodat all for Theoden or Snowmane.
How are you feeling at thisparticular moment?
Jessica (06:13):
My note says today's not a good day to be a horse
chick.
Kritter (06:19):
No, it's not.
I'm so sorry.
Jessica (06:21):
It's tough, it's definitely tough.
Kritter (06:28):
Yeah, I don't there's not much else to say to that
like yeah, I think my reaction,more than anything, was oof
right.
Can you imagine having a horsefall on you and then having a
giant flying beast with a witchking on its back settle on you?
you know what I mean like, likebasically air out of my lungs
Just reading, Just even thinkingabout how that felt.
Also, during this confrontation, Mary had been thrown by his
(06:52):
horse and he was blinded andsick with horror, so he also was
not feeling good at thisparticular moment, Like this was
not a good time for anyonearound Theoden, Mary included.
So the only one left to protecttheoden was dirnhelm and we get
the iconic exchange the nazgulthreatens dirnhelm, declaring
(07:17):
that no man could hinder him,and dirnhelm I did quotes, if
you're only listening laughsdeclaring herself finally as
Eowyn no man am I, she says,threatening to smite the Witch
King living or dead if hetouched Théoden.
Amazement at this exchangebrings Mary out of his terror.
(07:38):
Did it do anything for you?
Jessica (07:41):
It was incredible so I wrote completely iconic next to
it no living man am I is justone of those scenes I had
actually at one point done likea short story with you know that
, as like the tag, like thetwist, that you know no living
(08:01):
man can touch me but all thewives are the ones that got the
bad guy, kind of thing Ooh nice.
So I love that particular twist.
It resonates with me and so Iloved reading it in the moment.
It was just as majestic and Iliked having the visuals of
different media that I'veconsumed around it.
(08:22):
But then the next part is thepart where she empowers Mary,
right, so the quote that I havethere is it slow, kindled, the
courage of his race that it wasawoken.
I love that line and that wasjust so like yes, because you
(08:42):
know.
You know that we love hobbitsaround here.
We do.
Kritter (08:46):
We do.
Jessica (08:46):
We love us some hobbits , and so for her to be
transformative for him in thatmoment was amazing.
You know, everything about herrevelation is iconic, and this
just adds to that just adds tothat.
Kritter (09:03):
Yeah, I mean shout out to Tolkien for writing this,
because yes, slay but alsoMiranda Otto, who played A one
of the movies.
She doesn't say no man am I butthe?
I am no man the way she said ither voice.
It's so intense and amazing andperfect, and just the fact that
I could read this and watch it,it and it's two completely
(09:26):
different experiences, but bothof them give me such I don't
know, I don't want to say joy,but it like makes me feel so
proud to be a woman and like ofall of this, all these books,
obviously they're not, they'renot very female focus.
So to have this moment is justso nice after so many books of
like, granted galadriel being soheavily respected and admired
(09:49):
and putting her hands and thingsand like really affecting the
plot, um, but it's usually fromafar, right from above or
whatever.
This is so direct and impactfuland I just like, I just love it
so much.
Jessica (10:02):
And really inspirational.
Galadriel is otherworldly andkind of set apart, whereas Eowyn
is a much more relatablecharacter in that way.
I can't think of a single womanthat I know that can't relate
to some level of dissatisfactionwith their lot in life or any
(10:23):
of a hundred different aspectsof aowen's journey in these
books.
Kritter (10:27):
Um and so for her to have that moment is just
genuinely inspirational yeah,yeah, she wanted the, she wanted
to fight, and I don't want tosay she wanted the glory, but
she really wanted the fight andshe got the fight and she
absolutely dominated.
So that was awesome.
Yay, cheers to eowyn.
Yeah, um, so eowyn then nextslays the fell beast, chopping
(10:50):
its head clean off, lightfalling about her and her hair
shining like sunrise.
But the witch king is notdeterred, rising up and letting
fall his mace, shattering hershield and breaking her arm.
By the time he raises his maceagain to kill mary has crawled
within striking distance andgets him in the knee with his
(11:12):
sword, giving a one an openingto stab the witch king straight
into the void where his faceshould be.
The sword broke, sparkling intomany shards, the witch king
wailed and crumbled intonothingness and Eowyn fell to
the ground.
So this was a this, was this?
This?
This lot happened there.
How do you feel about it?
Jessica (11:32):
Um, I, I loved it, but it was crazy.
And so I definitely, throughthis part of the read, was like
I really need to rewatch thesemovies, like I really don't
remember how the battle scenesgo down, because guess what,
even when I'm watching media I'mnot a battle's girl I'm like I
(11:56):
kind of remember, you know, marygoing to war with her.
I don't really remember whathappens, you know, when the
baddie shows up.
So I'm looking forward to that.
I'm looking forward to thatexperience to rewatch and see
how that was portrayed on thescreen, because I was like I
(12:16):
guess I didn't realize that Maryhad stabbed him.
Kritter (12:28):
Um, and and then, above and beyond that, that led into
a passage that I had marked asmommy for this chapter.
Okay, sorry, I thought you saidmommy and I was like oh yes,
absolutely, but.
Jessica (12:34):
but literary mommy?
Sure, that too, but alsoliterary umami.
Um so, and it's not.
It's not like pretty scenery,it's something different.
Uh, so, past the sword of thebarrow downs, work of westerness
, but glad would he have been toknow its fate.
(12:56):
Who wrought it slowly, long agoin the north kingdom, when the
dunedain were young, and chiefamong their foes was the dread
realm of Angmar and its sorcererking.
No other blade not thoughmightier hands had wielded it
would have dealt that foe.
A wound so bitter, cleaving theundead flesh, breaking the
(13:16):
spell that knit unseen sinews tohis will.
And I just was like that's ahell of a paragraph.
I don't care who you are, whoyou're rooting for, I'm like
that is dang.
Kritter (13:30):
That is a paragraph specifically for this exact
moment, essentially way, way,way before this moment was ever
contemplated.
Do you enjoy happy coincidenceslike this or do they take you
(13:50):
out of the story being like tooconvenient?
No, I love it.
It's like payoff, it's likepayoff.
Jessica (13:55):
I immediately wanted to go back and read about the
Barrow-White passage againBecause I was like, did we know?
Because obviously I rememberthem getting gifted the swords.
I think Tom handed them off tothem.
(14:19):
Yeah, you know, I think didn't?
Kritter (14:21):
they didn't like comment on the sword too, or
somebody commented on the swordand he had to be like yeah, I
got this in in a really terribleplace that I don't actually
want to talk about, like I feellike that happened at some point
.
Jessica (14:33):
That sounds right.
Kritter (14:35):
So yeah, we we got, we got the sword.
We got like a hint that thesword was like pretty cool.
Oh, maybe it was whenever hewas getting armored by eowyn.
That might have been when ithappened, because it's like I've
already got a sword you knowsomething I I'd have to look
back, but anyways, now I agreethat this does feel much like a
lot like a payoff, yes, like theswords actually tie into
everything.
It also to me again wheel oftime, girly, forgive me.
(14:57):
There's a concept in the wheelof time called taverin, where
it's like the pattern which iskind of like reality itself,
kind of like shapes.
It shapes itself around certainindividuals and those
individuals are called taverin.
Right, and taverin areimportant to like making the
world do the things it'ssupposed to do.
That was a terrible way tophrase it, but anyways, it does
(15:19):
feel very much like.
You know, the pattern was likeshaping itself around mary in
that way to give him the swordso that he could land in that
particular place at thatparticular time.
To make the Witch King stumbleso that Eowyn could finish him
off.
So yeah, it didn't take me outof it at all, it actually made
me more intrigued.
Yeah, no, I loved it.
Jessica (15:38):
As soon as it said Barrow Downs, I'm like that's
right, that's a special sword.
Kritter (15:44):
Yep, yeah, so that was uh, yeah, no, I, I dug it.
Fan of that.
Um, okay, so mary is the onlyone up still.
Right, eowyn has fallen.
Theoden is under his horse, um,but he manages to talk with
theoden, who is dying.
Aomer also eventually makes hisway over and is a designated
designated theoden successorbefore he notices eowyn and
(16:07):
absolutely eluses it.
So do you have any standoutmoments from these final moments
with theoden am or any of that?
Jessica (16:16):
um, I did cry when theoden said and when you sit in
peace with your pipe, think ofme.
It did make me cry.
And I think that the flip sideof that is that Eowyn was
(16:37):
heartbroken.
Sorry, eomer was heartbrokenabout Eowyn, but in the very
kind of cliched stereotype ofwhat are you doing here?
You're supposed to be back home, right?
(16:57):
So that vibe came through.
I don't really feel that vibewith Aragorn.
To a lesser extent I felt it alittle bit with Theoden, just
that.
You know, this is your role,this is your place.
Kritter (17:10):
Yeah.
Jessica (17:11):
Which grinds, you know, like that chafafes.
But also there's some truth tothat, yeah a immerse.
Reaction to eowyn's presence onthe battlefield was a little
bit more of that almostdismissive.
You have no business here, evenin loss, even in mourning.
Um, so that and, and maybe thatwas a stretch, but that is kind
(17:35):
of how it hit.
Kritter (17:37):
Yeah, no, that's fair.
That's totally fair.
I did notice.
Did you notice did you flagthis?
That Théoden, when he wastalking about how he could join
his ancestors and be proud, hesaid that he felled the Black
Serpent.
Did you notice that?
Jessica (17:53):
And I was like what, what are you taking credit?
Kritter (17:59):
I well, I was really confused by that.
Um, please, anybody in thecomments correct me if I read
that wrong.
But and granted, like fine, youknow, let a dying man believe
what he believes.
But at the same time, like no,you did not.
Eowyn felt the serpent,assuming the serpent you're
talking about is the flyingbeast, like you know.
(18:21):
Um, although I guess, likepeople who are in charge,
sometimes take credit for thethings their subordinates do?
Jessica (18:28):
I think he's talking about the flag, the flag hold on
one second.
So this is why I love my kindle.
I can google, I can see wordsearch, please, so in um the
page before uh-huh, it talksabout yes, he's talking about
the serpent banner.
So, oh god, thank goodness okaythis is so embarrassing Because
(18:53):
, honestly, I went out with likemad props for Theoden.
You know we would come in andgo out of a story without any
ick.
So that would have been ick forme.
Kritter (19:04):
That's why I brought it up, because I was like no, you
did not just take credit forthat Serpent banner, so it
sounds like those forces have astandard with a black serpent
upon scarlet uh and he hadfelled the person or he had made
it.
Jessica (19:22):
You know, made the standard bearer drop it.
So he, that's what he meant.
Kritter (19:27):
Thank you kindle and thank you, jessica, for looking
that up.
That makes me feel so muchbetter.
Jessica (19:32):
No, no, no, we're not stealing credit, we're not going
out that way.
Kritter (19:37):
So anyways, now I'm very happy for him okay, he went
out the way he wanted to go outand I'm not confused at all
anymore.
Good job, van, and you did earnyour place in the halls of your
ancestors.
Um, so then, also in that am orlike that did give me a little
bit of like.
He is like oh my god, thoughit's this woman, she's not
(19:59):
supposed to be here, butwhatever.
And then he goes into thiscrazy rage, um, but we get a
cool line from him and he says Ibelieve this is something that
feyadin says in the movie, buthe says death, ride to ruin and
the world's ending and there'sno more songs now from from the.
Uh men of rohan just calls fordeath.
(20:19):
And that was like kind ofchilling, I don't know.
I kind of liked that, eventhough the inspiration for it
was a little mid, but the waythey went for it it was kind of
epic right amir is very much awarrior, yeah.
Jessica (20:35):
So the next piece, the next note that I have is that
they actually they draw, theydug a grave for snow main, yeah,
and, and I appreciated that.
Kritter (20:45):
Yeah, but I noted that too, except it made me sad that
his grave it had a nice littlerhyme on it, but one of the
things in the rhyme is that hewas his master's bane, rip I
don't know.
Jessica (20:59):
It seems unfair to me.
Years and years of good service, you fall down one time right.
Kritter (21:04):
You get hit with a dart , you get shot, fall down one
time and you are your master'sbane and it's on your grave.
Jessica (21:12):
Like that's inappropriate that's not how
I'll remember snowmane for whatit's worth good me either.
Kritter (21:20):
It just made me, made me sad for him that that was how
he's going to be remembered.
Um rip snowmane, rip theoden,yeah, yeah.
So at the end of this chapter,the corsairs of umbar.
Corsairs are ships, just incase anyone was wondering.
To the dismay of the good guysand delight of the bad, until
(21:43):
Eomer catches sight of thebanner flying from the head ship
, aragorn had arrived and bynightfall the battle was over
and the bad guys vanquished,though the good guys had also
suffered many casualties.
That's it, final thoughts.
Jessica (22:02):
I had written down.
I had another little piece ofumami towards the end of the
chapter where it said it seemedthat all things wept for Theoden
and Eow aoin quenching thefires in the city with gray
tears oh and I just thought thatthat was very touching yeah, I
(22:22):
think and then my last bulletwas just she's alive she's alive
.
Kritter (22:29):
I tell you what, like tol, and rightfully so, knows
how to hit the right tone whenit comes to a battle.
Right, it's not epic Well, someof it is but it's not all epic,
it's not all glory.
There's a lot of darkness andsadness and slower moments that
(22:53):
don't always get talked about.
I don't think so.
I think he really captured,like as far as me not being a
Battles girly, I'm not but thereare certain moments throughout
this thing where he really likehooked me in a way that I don't
think many people would have,just because he made it more
real, I think.
Jessica (23:12):
And I think those beats in between, those breaths are
kind of what stand out to me, atleast, the most when I'm making
my notes.
Not that there isn't epicaction, to your point, but the
fact that he switches up therhythm and those quieter moments
, those more somber moments,those smaller moments, whatever
(23:34):
it might be making room forthose really ups the read.
For me, yeah, absolutely 100%.
Kritter (23:43):
All right.
Book five, chapter seven thePyre of Denethor, Deep breaths.
Jessica (23:51):
You ready for this one?
This chapter was hard man.
Kritter (23:55):
Okay.
So pippin finally finds gandalfand recounts what was happening
with denethor and faramir.
Gandalf hesitates, knowing thathelping faramir would
ultimately hurt other people,but he ultimately decides to
help faramir and when he andpippin find the gate guard slain
, he notes that friends warringwith friends, was exactly what
(24:17):
the enemy wanted.
So we've talked about Gandalfbeing the insight king.
Did this ethical dilemma hefaced or observation he made
about the enemy hit you in anyparticular way.
Jessica (24:31):
I feel as though it was almost premonitory for the rest
of the chapter.
Um, you know about the enemygetting his way.
The thing that hit me the moston this open this this early
part is, I had the realization,as gandalf was saying it um that
he really is functioning on alevel that he has to pick and
(24:56):
choose where he places hisenergy Because by choosing to
leave the battlefield, he knowsthat they likely will you know,
they might still win the day,but they'll likely take on more
casualties.
Or you know, he has to reallypick and choose where he puts
his energy because he could beleaving somebody else in a very
(25:17):
precarious spot and, not to makehim sound clinical, there are
many important pieces on theboard in theory.
So how do you pick and choose inthat moment which one is the
most important?
And so he essentially made thatcomment about you know, if I
(25:38):
leave the field now there, youknow people will pay, but
there's no one else to helpFaramir, so I must go Right.
I got kind of chills about it.
I was like Ooh yeah, no, whenyou know that if I walk away
away, I might be able to helpthis person, but this person or
this group of people will nothave the benefit of my help and
(26:00):
it's going to make their jobthat much harder right.
Kritter (26:03):
It's giving trolley problem a little.
You know a little bit.
It's like you have.
Do you pull the lever right, doyou change your trajectory in
order to save a different person?
Um, and it also kind ofreminded me of if we've got any
gamers listening.
Um, kind of like he's the greatgeneral right in civ
civilization, the game, and he'skind of just like where do I,
(26:26):
you know, where do I go?
Because I'm clearly someonewho's going to affect the, the
pace, the tide, whatever abattle, and just having to make
that decision is so brutal, likewhat a brutal way to live.
Like my decisions are going tolike affect lives, like lives
will be lost based on the thingsthat I'm doing.
Jessica (26:46):
That's brutal and I'll go even further to say he was
that important the whole time.
I just don't feel like I hadcultivated that insight until he
actually pointed it out nowthat he's essentially acting as
a general, yeah, and there is,you know, direct combat with the
enemy forces.
It's just that much moreblatant, right?
(27:07):
Oh yeah, no, he wasn'toverstating his importance, sure
not sure, not.
Kritter (27:14):
So it turns out that baragond had managed to hold the
servants at bay, having to slaya couple of them, and about the
time denethor came for him,gandalf arrived, magicked
denethor's sword from his handdid you notice that he, like,
raised his hand and the swordflew, amazing and carried
faramir, who he found covered infuneral oils at the top of a
(27:35):
pyre, out of the chamber.
So we're talking like fantasynovel or like a romance novel.
Cover Gandalf holding Faramirin his arms carrying him out of
this.
Any thoughts about thissequence?
Jessica (27:50):
I go back to what I said before, that Faramir must
be important If Gandalf'swilling to spend this kind of
energy to save him not that alllife isn't important.
Um, he physically picked him upand removed him from the danger
.
I feel like that speaks volumes.
Kritter (28:06):
Yeah, and we always talk about how old Gandalf is,
how wise he is, but I love whenTolkien reminds us like he's
also pretty spry, never forgethe is.
Jessica (28:16):
But I love when tolkien reminds us like he's also
pretty spry.
Never forget he can jump.
Don't actually know how old heis, like it's really just a
question mark, but he's strongenough to pick up a full-grown
warrior right, just walk aroundwith him right, yeah, once again
very impressed with gandalf.
Kritter (28:29):
That's basically where what I took from this little
sequence and uh, and then wefind out, some tea denethor has
a palantir that has basicallyrobbed him of all hope right
zaron couldn't like influencehim quite as much as he could.
They had in, but he could showhim exactly what he wanted to
(28:49):
see, making him just despondenthe admits, denet admits he had
no intention of giving rule overto Isildur's heir.
And when he tries to get atFaramir again, Baragond steps
between them.
Ultimately, Denethor takes thepalantir and burns himself on
the pyre.
How are we feeling?
Jessica (29:11):
Well, first off, all in caps, denethor, you, no good
dirty dog, I knew you had one, Ijust flipping knew it.
That is literally what my notessay.
Yep, so called it.
Kritter (29:25):
You did you did.
Jessica (29:28):
And then there was another, so I have to give it to
him.
Though there was one quote fromDenethor that I thought was
quote worthy, um, so, as he'sgoing through his tirade, he
says but if doom denies this tome, then I will have not neither
life diminished, nor lovehalved, nor honor abated.
(29:50):
Um, and so, as much as, evenright up until the very end, I
truly disliked Denethor.
I thought it was a killer quote.
Kritter (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the guy he's uh, I don't want to say
he's got style, but like he isa complicated man, he is that
way, um.
Jessica (30:12):
And then I wrote you know, crazy SOB is that way, um.
And then I wrote you know,crazy sob, he really did it.
He hopped right up there.
Um, it felt a little bit morehorrific, bear with me.
It felt more horrific becauseit felt like it took longer for
him to die, because it took thetime it took for me to read it
as opposed to watching it doesthat make any sense?
Kritter (30:32):
it?
Jessica (30:32):
absolutely does.
Yeah, it's to watching it.
Does that make any sense at all?
It absolutely does, yeah.
It's like watching it in slowmotion and it's horrifying and
I'm like, oh my God, I'm aterrible person.
Yeah, so yeah.
And then you know afterwards hegave a great cry, spoke no more
, nor was ever seen again bymortal men.
(30:53):
And so my last thoughts aboutDenethor kind of come back to
Boromir.
So I am willing to believe ourfriend Don Marshall, obscure
Lord of the Rings guy, thatBoromir had a rough gig after
(31:15):
meeting his dad.
Yeah, fair, he definitely had atough gig.
Um, and I just I think any anydislike I had towards Boromir
has shifted squarely to Denethor.
I think Denethor is the onlycharacter that I have met
(31:36):
throughout the whole series,short of Libidia Sackville
Baggins.
That I just can't stand.
Kritter (31:45):
Never forget the Sackville Baggins.
Never forgive an SB, so true soyeah, that's how I feel about
him, um, and I think it's worthnoting they said that if anyone
like tried to use his palantirfrom then on, they just would,
unless they have like an insanemastery hands there would be
(32:05):
scary old man burning hands thatthey see, and that'd be it.
So he basically rendered one ofthe palantir obsolete, except
for people like, I assume,gandalf, galadriel, elrond, like
the strongest willed people,and that's it.
Because, yeah, he, uh, hecorrupted it, yeah, by doing
(32:26):
what he did there.
So he really went out with a uh, with a bang Um.
But I do appreciate how in themovie they had him like run off
the end of the thing.
That was very cinematic, butthe way they did it in the books
was very haunting.
So I kind of like that thedifferent mediums chose
different ways to do it.
Personally, um, also, I want tosay that this, this all made me
(32:51):
really sad for baragond, but italso made me really proud, um,
because he had to kill severalof his kinsmen right in order to
save faramir.
So he was just, he is a I don'twant to say king's man.
He is a son of a steward's manlike he really respected but so
loyal, um, and.
(33:11):
And he even got between denethorand faramir, even though
denethor was like the ultimateauthority for him technically,
like he this is a uh, what wouldyou say?
Chaotic good right, like hewasn't going to follow orders if
it meant doing the wrong thing.
So, so, anyways, mad respectfor bear.
Jessica (33:29):
God, basically shout out to bear and think about how
scary that is for him as aperson who is, you know,
essentially in a servant roleand defying his master out of
loyalty for Faramir.
Yeah, um, yeah, I, I had.
I had strong feelings for bearGod.
I was very proud of him forstanding up in that way, because
(33:53):
it's such a hard thing to doyeah, as a regular person that
man deserves a promotion and araise, correct, I think,
personally.
Kritter (34:02):
Once faramir takes over um.
So they bring faramir to thehouses of healing.
Uh, the Witch King falls from adistance and Gandalf uses his
sights to understand what allhad gone down, the good and the
bad and understands that hemight have been able to prevent
some of the tragedy had he beenthere.
(34:22):
I'm assuming you know Eowyn's,like Theoden maybe.
Even I find it interesting thatTolkien took the time to point
this out.
We kind of talked about thisalready.
Why do you think he might'vedone that?
Jessica (34:37):
I think, follow through .
Honestly.
You know for a person that I'venever met in my life, but he
seems you know, if nothing elsethrough the readings, he seems
very meticulous and that it'salmost resource allocation.
So Gandalf, as a resource andtalking about from a strategic
(34:58):
perspective, the impact thatthat has when you move such a
powerful resource from one pointof the conflict to another, and
that's going to haveramifications and I can honestly
believe that as somebody whowas in the military.
He wanted to show his workright.
He wanted to show that there isan impact, there are
consequences when you make thesechoices.
Kritter (35:20):
Yeah, so true, because if we didn't pick up earlier,
you know Gandalf sitting therebeing like I have to choose
Faramir because I'm the only onewho can help.
Now we know what the impact was.
Yeah, they had and may havedied because of this.
So it's a.
It was a drastic choice, um,but he had to make it, basically
.
Um, so we wrap up this chapterGandalf and Pippin heading back
(35:43):
to the lower city and Baragondheading to turn himself in and
then volunteer to guard faramir,if they'll let him.
Jessica (35:50):
Any thoughts before we move on um, there are two spots
in this chapter where they referto gandalf as a white light in
a dark place and a?
Um a figure carven in white ashe stood in the new sun and
looked out.
So just the imagery is beingreally kind of leaned into um
(36:14):
with Gandalf as a figure inwhite.
Just noteworthy that twice inone chapter that that is very
much being pointed out.
I think it's because we're upagainst the enemy's forces and
so we're seeing figures of darkand this is the counterbalance
to that.
Kritter (36:32):
That makes sense.
I like it Okay.
Book five, chapter eight theHouses of Healing.
So Mary accompanied theprocession carrying Theoden and
Eowyn into the city, and thiswas the vibe To Mary the ascent
seemed age-long, a meaninglessjourney and a hateful dream
(36:53):
going on and on to some dimending that memory cannot seize.
So this didn't seem like a veryhobbity attitude to me.
What did you make?
Jessica (37:06):
of it, um, I made of it that he had just had the most
dramatic, scary encounter of hislife, and he is shook to his
core yeah um, it's really hardto maintain that hobbit silver
(37:28):
lining attitude in the face oftrue evil which he was literally
facing down.
Kritter (37:35):
Yeah Hours previous, that's fair.
So Pippin finds Mary wanderingin the streets, having been
separated from the procession inthis days that he was in.
He comforts him and insists ontaking him to the houses of
healing too.
Were you relieved at thisreunion, and I guess did you
also have the sense that Marywas injured in some way?
Jessica (38:00):
So it does say straight out he can't use his right arm,
right.
Um, and first off, I cried Maryand Pippin reuniting again.
I cried, yeah, I cried.
I'm like, oh my God, he foundhim.
It's not always a misfortunebeing overlooked.
There's a comment made by Mary.
I liked that, I noted that, Ithink that that goes very hand
(38:23):
in hand with Hobbit life.
Hobbit life and then Pippinabout Mary.
His heart was wrung with fearand pity.
So I've been on the recordmultiple times saying I trust
their instinct and Pippin knowssomething's wrong with his
friend.
So all of that taken together,I do feel like there's some
(38:45):
actual danger facing Mary, likehe's not quite out of the woods
yet, and so I felt the sameimpetus as Pippin, like let's
get him to a healer, let's gethim looked at and see what else
could be going on.
Kritter (39:01):
Yeah, the thing that really killed me was when Mary
asked Pippin if he was going tobury him.
Oh God, I know it's like for ahobbit to be like are you gonna
bury me?
Essentially, it's just sofreaking sad.
Um, because they're just likethey're of all the races,
they're the ones that kind ofmaintain the spark, the hope
(39:22):
textbook trauma response thoughit really is not to bring too
much reality into our fantasy,but it's very like can you check
in on my wife?
Jessica (39:34):
Can you make sure that my son makes it to graduation?
Those are all very real thingsthat happen.
Can you check my garden?
Whatever it might be, it mightseem trivial to somebody else,
but it's very real in the momentwhere you're just like, oh, I'm
not going to be there anymore.
Who's gonna?
Who's gonna do X, y or Z?
(39:55):
Yeah, and you know that is hisvery dear friend, you know.
Kritter (40:01):
I think this is another , another example of Tolkien
being like yeah, this is whatit's like, like it's not all,
just you know gunshots and likecool explosions.
Right, there's the peopleinvolved, and they all get
affected in some way or another,some worse than others, and
mary was clearly very affected.
Um, and then gandalf finds themboth and admits that the world
(40:25):
would be far worse off if elrondhadn't convinced him to let
them come with the fellowship.
That was a really nice thing tohear, so heartwarming.
I appreciated that a lot.
Yeah, so we find out there'sthis black shadow, an illness
related to the Nazgul.
It laid heavy on Merry andEowyn and Faramir was burning
(40:47):
with a fever.
I kind of thought it was sortof less related to the Black
Shadow.
I gathered the eldest of thehealing women wept at Faramir's
dire state, wishing that therewere still kings of Gondor, as
quote the hands of the king arethe hands of a healer, and so
the rightful king could ever beknown.
Gandalf, being inspired by this, strikes out and after having
(41:09):
spent the remainder of the daytending to the sick sorry, he
strikes out after having spentthe remainder of the day tending
to the six.
So he had removed himself fromthe battlefield and was just
really trying to work with thesick people.
Aragorn initially did notintend to come into the city
right away, but agreed to comeas a ranger not a king to help
with the sick when Gandalffetched him and help.
He does Thoughts aboutAragorn's time in the Houses of
(41:33):
Healing.
Jessica (41:34):
He's a freaking healer man.
Like I don't even know what todo with that information, so I
certainly don't remember everhearing that plot point before.
I feel like that's brand newinformation for me.
Yeah, also the fact that theyuse the Athelos, the king's foil
again plot point before.
I feel like that's brand newinformation for me.
Also the fact that they used theaphelos, the king's foil again,
(41:57):
I very much liked that, so Ihad written down this is a
nothing weed that he uses toheal.
Even in the last instance wherethey used it, they were like I,
it's a weed, so I like that.
It's something small andinnocuous, like a Hobbit that
(42:18):
that he can use to heal them.
And just you know, genuinelyhe's laying on hands and casting
away the shadow.
Yeah, it's wild Magical.
Kritter (42:32):
I thought it was so funny how, speaking of like it's
just being a weed, Like all ofthese old folks came in and
they're talking to him aboutthis king's foil and they're
like, well, it's worthless.
It was so funny to me but alsoso frustrating, Like just go
find it, my God.
Like what else are we going todo?
They even had a rhyme about hishealing properties and
(42:55):
everybody's just like but that'sjust a rhyme, it's not real
life.
My god, just do it.
I know Even Gandalf was like,if you just go?
He snapped at him.
I was like that is me, gandalfis me right now.
So he goes to Faramir first,right, and then uh, gan or sorry
.
Faramir woke up after aragorndoes his healing thing with the
(43:17):
king's foil and he immediatelyrecognized him as the king which
I freaking loved.
Highly satisfying faramir seesall you know what mean.
He's so wise and he proved itright here.
I don't know, did you enjoythat part?
Jessica (43:32):
I loved it.
I loved it.
So I feel as though Faramir isthe best parts of his dad.
So Faramir has that long sightability and that nobility that
comes from their old bloodlines,and he is a much better version
of that.
The other thing that I reallyloved about this inner exchange
(43:58):
was at the end he asks his kingwhat he can do and he tells him
to be ready when I return, whichis just another great reminder
that we're not even halfwaythrough the book yet.
This isn't even the climax.
Yeah, so I thought it waslovely.
I thought it was wonderful, andFaramir just continues to live
(44:23):
up to the hype.
Kritter (44:24):
Yeah, aragorn then proceeds to Eowyn and uh and
like brings her back but leavesbefore she wakes up.
And it was to me just soblatantly like I don't want to
leave this woman on.
So, amr, you take over, I'm I'mgonna go do my thing elsewhere.
How did you feel about that?
Jessica (44:43):
um, I liked that there was a phrase there was a quote
here, I think, think by Aragorn,who says but who knows what?
She spoke to the darkness alone, in their bitter watches of the
night, when all her life seemedshrinking and the walls of her
bower closing in about her ahutch to trammel some wild thing
in.
So I really loved that phrasebecause relatable.
(45:06):
I do do some of my worstthinking in the middle of the
night, when you know I make upghosts and things like that.
Um, so you know, seeminglyacknowledging her plight in life
and how it might affect her andhow all of us are our own worst
enemies at the late hours ofthe night.
Yeah, um.
(45:27):
And then, after this, though,aragorn talks about aoin and a
love that cannot be returned,and I was just like dang, does
that mean tolkien was trying todo the romance before?
Kritter (45:44):
I think so yeah.
Jessica (45:47):
I know, so that's a thing.
Kritter (45:50):
Yeah, there was a love triangle in the Lord of the
Rings.
Jessica (45:53):
Okay, Moving on.
Kritter (46:00):
Okay, moving on.
That happened All right.
So then, this is.
This was a bright spot in thischapter, I think, for me.
Mary wakes up after Irrigorncomes to him and immediately
says that he's hungry.
When's dinner?
So on brand, such a relief,though he did say that he never
wanted to smoke again because itwould make him think of Théoden
(46:22):
, which was so sad.
I really liked Aragorn's advicehere here, though, to smoke and
think of him, which is whatthey hadn't said, and uh it's.
It's interesting to me that maryended up the pipe weed, lore
master, after like hesitating toever smoke again.
You know what I mean, if, ofcourse, if the prologue of the
fellowship, if you remember, wasany indication.
So how did you feel about thesequence with mary and the
(46:44):
healing and the, and the dinnerthoughts and the smoking?
Jessica (46:48):
loved it.
I also noted that his firstthought was food and I was like
okay, full recovery.
Kritter (46:52):
I love that story we're good.
Jessica (46:53):
We're good, we're fine.
The lore master on the smoke isinteresting to me now because I
like the fact that I feel thatso often our friends help us
find ways to process events froma different perspective, and so
I love the fact that Aragornkind of did that for him, gave
(47:15):
him another perspective, and itso closely echoed what Theoden
said to him that he was able totake that and kind of digest
that feedback.
So I loved that, digest thatfeedback.
So I loved that.
The last thought that I hadfrom this chapter was the
(47:36):
exclamation may the Shire liveforever unwithered.
So everything about this was agreat note to end it on, because
this was a heavy kind ofsection with some serious combat
for our povs that we are seeinghere yeah so it's some pretty
serious stuff, so it was nice toend on a high note, for sure so
(48:00):
yeah, for the end of thechapter.
Kritter (48:01):
Aragorn is pursued by the people of the city and
spends most of the night healingwounds alongside elrond's sons.
He is given the name elfstoneby the people because of the
night healing wounds alongsideElrond's sons.
He is given the name Elfstoneby the people because of the
green stone that he wore, whichhad been foretold at his birth.
And when he was well and trulyexhausted he went back to sleep
in his tent outside of the city.
Just, king, you know.
(48:23):
Crown removed.
And that's it for the chapter.
So, any final final thoughtsbefore we pick an MVP?
And that's it for the chapter.
Jessica (48:29):
So any final, final thoughts before we pick an mvp?
Um, there was one last hobbitnod in there where somebody
referred to them as very toughin the fiber and I freaking
loved that yeah, aragorn's likefair mirror can't leave for 10
days or whatever.
Kritter (48:46):
Eowyn same same, same, same, um, but m same.
But, merry, he can go on a walktomorrow.
He'll be okay Dang.
Okay, that's amazing.
Jessica (48:55):
Yeah, also, though, I feel like it speaks to
sensibility, right, like Merry'snot going to immediately go out
and try to spit in Sauron's eye, so I think there's a
sensibility piece that goes withthat as well.
I don't know that I feel thesame about Eowyn or even Faramir
, to be fair.
Kritter (49:14):
That's fair, I guess.
Yeah, you can trust Mary totake it easy, more or less,
without really needing that manyinstructions to do so.
So it's a good point.
Okay, all right, that's a goodpoint.
Okay, all right.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
(49:34):
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (49:42):
I know we say it every time, but it was so, so hard.
Kritter (49:47):
Okay, no, not every time.
Sometimes we pick the same onesand it's relatively
straightforward Last week brutal, this week maybe more brutal.
Like harder even still.
Jessica (50:00):
Okay, I'm just going to say it.
Okay, I picked Aragorn becausehe was the group medic and he
brought people back to life.
That we need for the rest of thejourney.
So that was my logic, but I hadstrong feelings about both
Eowyn and Mary as honorablementions in this chapter in this
(50:23):
section.
Yeah, this chapter in thissection.
Yeah, cause I was like this is,but I finally gave it up
because I was like Aragornbrought people back that we,
that are clearly important,we're going to need them going
forward.
Um, so that's, that's how Icame down.
How about you?
Kritter (50:44):
I'm glad you picked him because he was my runner up,
which, I feel like, is whathappened last week.
I am, eric, was my runner upbecause of all the things you
said, plus him showing up in theCorsairs, like everybody
thinking it's the bad guy, andit's him pretty awesome.
Excuse me, but I think wedidn't give a shout out.
You didn't give a shout out.
Obviously there's so manypossible honorable mentions in
(51:07):
this chapter, because there'salso Gandalf, who jumped but got
faramir down from the pyre,right, but without baragon he
would he would have been deadalready.
So there's a baragon too, umand uh, yeah.
So ultimately, though, my mvpis my MVP is Eowyn, because the
Witch King was the leader of thearmies, right, and when he went
(51:32):
down, that more or less to mekind of signaled the tide
turning, even though Aragornshowing up was also a very
helpful thing to have happened,but she took down one of the
primary foes.
Yeah, on the side of the dark.
It was hard, man, it was a hardchoice, and she did so with the
(51:55):
assist for Mary.
So again like.
Jessica (51:58):
Mary.
Kritter (51:58):
I was like I don't know how I'm not giving it up for
Eowyn and Mary, but yeah, um,but yeah, just the fact that she
was there, the iconic line, thefact that she was there, the
iconic line, the fact that, youknow, hashtag feminism finally
shows up, lord of the rings, allof it was just really, really,
really satisfying and so I wentwith her, even though aragorn
(52:21):
did, did, did the most he did.
He did equally the most toeowyn.
Basically, they're so neck andneck here it's wild.
So, yeah, let us know in thecomments or on Discord how you
feel about MVP.
You could literally pick one ofI don't know six people and I'd
be like, yeah, that soundsright.
Jessica (52:40):
So I'm really curious.
Kritter (52:41):
I'm really curious what you all pick.
Jessica (52:43):
Yeah, yeah, please shoot us messages and tell us
how wrong we are, because welove it.
It's our favorite game.
Kritter (52:50):
Absolutely my favorite.
Jessica (52:52):
So that's it for us for this week.
So for next week, we're goingto ask you to read book five,
chapters nine and 10.
So you're finishing book fivefor next week, and we want to
say thank you so much for tuninginto episode three of season
four of but are there dragonsbrought to you by your hosts,
jessica Sadai and Critter XD?
(53:12):
Please don't forget to followus at.
But are there dragons onYouTube, instagram and Tik TOK
and?
But dragons pod?
Just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as Critter xd and
shelf indulgence.
That's it for us today.
We are going to continue toworkshop new catchphrases
(53:34):
through season four, so let usknow on socials how you feel
about this one.
You are weary.
Rest a while and take food andbe ready when we return bye, bye
.
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