May 14, 2024 • 49 mins
Kritter and Jessica continue their journey through Two Towers book 3 chapters 6 and 7. They make it to Rohan, meet King Theoden, and finally face the foe with him at Helm's Deep.
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Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host, jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Two Towers by JRR Tolkien,
with me as the resident Lord ofthe Rings veteran and me as a
first timer In this, our thirdepisode of season three.
(00:29):
We're going to discuss bookthree, chapters six through
seven, before we dive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I'm good, life is good, just busy getting ready
for summer and all that thatentails.
How about you just busy gettingready for summer?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
and all that that entails.
How about you, same same, stillhaving construction going on my
house a little bit Upstairsguest bath is becoming a laundry
room also, which is going to beso convenient, and that's like
almost done.
But I've been waking up veryearly to let my construction
people in a lot lately.
(01:06):
So I will not be sad when I cansleep in consistently, because
I am a.
I'm usually, if I have my way,I go to bed late and I wake up
late.
Yeah, but it's fine, we're fine, everything's fine, yeah,
anyways.
So let's get into this book,shall we?
Let's do it, okay.
(01:28):
So book three, chapter six, theKing of the Golden Hall.
So, especially given thechapter title, I wanted to start
this episode by acknowledgingthe amazing life lived by
Bernard Hill, who played Theoden, the king of the Golden Hall in
Peter Jackson's Lord of theRings trilogy.
He passed away the same week wewere reading this chapter, at
(01:50):
the age of 79.
He was beloved among Tolkienfans for his incredible
portrayal of King Theoden, andBilly Boyd said it perfectly I
don't think anyone spokeTolkien's words as great as
Bernard did.
He would break my heart.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
And I just wanted to say that he will be sorely
missed.
I would just say the same.
I mean I can't think of anothermore iconic role and the
gravitas he brought to that role.
It's unparalleled and it's aloss.
And just the timing was soironic and definitely he was on
(02:33):
my mind as I was going throughthis read Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, so definitely was thinking of him this whole
sequence during this read.
Such weird timing.
But may he rest in peace.
So, as far as the chapter goes,the party approaches edoras
king theoden's court and passesthe barrows where king theoden's
(02:58):
sires were buried 16 of them.
Did you notice that there wereseven on one side and nine on
the other?
That kind of gave me goosebumps, because he died at the age of
79.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
No, I didn't, but now that just made the hair on the
back of my neck stand up.
That's a little.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Isn't that?
Yeah, anyways, I thought thatwas wild.
So 16 of them resting beneaththe bright eyes in the grass was
wild.
So 16 of them resting beneaththe bright eyes in the grass.
The ever mind, the symbol, mineor symbol mean I'm not exactly
sure how to pronounce that uh,flowers that bloom year-round
where dead men rest.
Did anything stand out to youfrom the party's trek to ederas?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
uh, just that.
Again, it was so.
Uh, the plains of roandefinitely appealed to me.
Again, I think it's the horsegirl stuff and I try not, you
know, I'm sure people are tiredof hearing about that, but just
the way that it's described, theentry, and then also keeping in
mind that their encounter withEamir made it very clear that
(04:01):
Rohan has like a very strictborders closed policy and
they're essentially trying tomake it into the king's presence
undetected, virtually, so itadded a little element of
suspense there for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
For sure.
So yeah, the party gets to thegates and, as you kind of
alluded to, they're met withsome real hostility.
Eventually they're let in, butthey are forced to give up their
weapons.
Aragorn takes some real umbrageagainst giving up Andoril, but
does it anyway, and Gandalfobjects to giving up his staff
and is supported by Aragorn, whohelps him play the old man card
(04:38):
, which actually works.
Any thoughts from this sequence?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
works.
Any thoughts from this sequence?
So I well, first off, as theywere going up, I had written
down that gandalf had a a linewhere he said draw no weapons,
speak no haughty word, trying totell them all like be cool,
we're on a fast one here, um, soI thought that that was pretty
funny.
Uh, that he was trying to setthem up like this is gonna take
some finagling, don't?
ruin it um, and then I did.
(05:06):
I thought that it was hilarious, that, that I thought that that
was a bit from the movies,honestly, uh, yeah, and sir ian
mckellen did it adorably.
Uh, you know, just trying tolook um, elderly and
distinguished, in a need ofsomething to perch on the wide
eyes innocent super innocent.
(05:26):
It was hilarious and I was like,oh my god, it's, it's a shtick
from the book, like that'shilarious to me.
Um, and then the only otherthing slightly less fun is that
worm tongue had given the ordertwo days previous to not allow
anyone through the gates andthat immediately stuck out to me
Just instant red flag, Like whyis Wormtongue giving orders?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, gandalf had the same reaction.
Whenever he was mentioned, hegot really, really testy and it
definitely felt like there was aconflict brewing there.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
I also loved how you know, the rule was let nobody in
who can't speak our language,and Gandalf, first thing he did
was speak their language back tothem and they were still just
like oh, I didn't expect thatyeah, and even that was a little
fun, because I did not realizethat, um, the, the men of rohan,
(06:18):
like I didn't realize that theyspoke a different language
until going through that scene,so I didn't realize there was a
separate language yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Um, I don't know this to be true, but I assume it's
true.
Uh, I think it's in theextended edition of the lord of
the rings, but, um, at thefuneral of theoden's son, uh,
eowyn sings like a song in adifferent language and I assume
that that's that language, youknow?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
yeah, that's my guess , that's my guess again things
that like it's been so longsince I've done my last watch
and I have no idea how long it'sbeen since I've watched the
extended editions wow, that'scrazy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I didn't really I didn't realize it had been like
a really long time.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah Well, and again, I'm not someone that would go
every year around Christmas.
I watch them.
I know folks, I know you haverewatch parties at set times and
I think that's fun if you havethat sort of thing.
And I also know people thathave certain favorites that they
watch every year forThanksgiving, whatever it is.
(07:26):
I've never done that.
I am as much as I'm a moodreader, I'm a mood watcher, and
so I'd be like oh, it's been aminute, I'm due, I'm going to do
a rewatch.
So that means I have literallyno idea how long.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
And.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I think we had discussed this before.
Like I, will watch either thetheatrical cut or the extended
edition, based on whatever I canget access to digitally um but
there is a rash of in theaterscreenings happening across the
country, so and I'm hoping thatthey will uh schedule some
viewings in a theater near mynew address very soon fingers
(08:04):
crossed.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I heard and I don't know if this is true, but I want
to say they were advertisingthe first time ever in theaters
the extended editions in theremastered versions, and I heard
that that was going to be morelike June-ish.
So I've also got my fingers andtoes crossed because yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Well, some of our friends in Discord had dropped
it.
I think it's coming through AMCTheaters.
Yes, and I do believe that Junewas the date, but I have to
wait for them to come to my zipcode.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I know, yeah, I feel like I hear all kinds of things
about like early releases comingto AMC or whatever, and I check
my AMC right down the road fromme and it's like not always, it
doesn't always hit there and Ijust want, I really want the
Lord of the Rings to hit there.
I would travel, but I'd ratherjust be able to go down the
street.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So if they do whichever edition, if Fellowship
hits a big screen because I'venever seen it on the big screen,
I will 110% be going to see iton the big screen, no matter
which edition they're airing youmust, you must, it is, it's a
perfect movie.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's a perfect movie.
I love it so much that it'sjust chef's kiss, um.
But I am biased.
They are my favorite movies, sobut I don't know if that's
biased as much as just you know,recognizing game and movies,
they've got game.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
They do.
They absolutely do.
It was.
You know, I was much youngerwhen those came out.
We all were, and I was justlike well, poo-poo on that and
I'm not going to have anythingto do with it and I'll just wait
and watch it in the comfort ofmy home.
Looking at it now and the waythat I just went and religiously
watched Dune in the movietheater, like on opening weekend
(09:48):
because I knew that for me Ineeded to experience that movie
on the big screen.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
If I had to do it all over again, I absolutely would
have gone and seen it first onthe big screen this is not a
breaking news podcast, but wedid just get news today that
there are Peter Jacksonaffiliated Lord of the Rings
movies coming down the pipeline.
The first one that I, you knowI want to say.
(10:15):
I saw an article that saidthere were two coming, but the
first one is like the hunt forGollum.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So I saw that too.
I didn't click on it, cause I'mscared to click on things, but
as soon as I saw the title thehunt for Gollum I was like I get
that reference.
I know about that.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I thought the same thing.
I was like, oh my gosh, likethat's something that we read
about, like that's somethingthat Gandalf described to us and
like Aragorn also kind of toldus about.
I think, uh, and I guess, likedirected by andy circus, which
is funny.
Funny because this week for mymovie club I just watched rise
of the planet the apes, whichyou know, andy circus once again
absolutely slaying, with all ofthe motion capture and whatever
(10:57):
, um, playing caesar the ape, Ibelieve is what he did in that
movie.
Um, but anyway, so like havinghim involved, having peter
jackson involved, having it be astory that actually exists in
the books, all of these thingshave me just a little excited
yeah, I mean, who knows how longit'll take to come to fruition,
but it is um, you know, it kindof revives in me a little bit
(11:21):
of that excitement only thistime I feel like I'm in on the
joke a little bit more, becauseyou know, you know, now I know
what?
the hunt for speed?
We know what that like, we knowwhat that is, I know what that
is.
Um, yeah, I mean so far they'resaying it's projecting or
whatever for 2026, which to meit feels like you know we're I'm
in the in the time of jamescameron, where 10 years go by
(11:44):
and you don't get a new Avatarmovie.
You know, if they really do itthat quickly, then awesome,
that's great.
But I guess Peter Jackson isthe guy who shot three Lord of
the Rings movies in three years,right?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
So I guess they must have a script then.
So, like I said, I didn't clickon it because again, I do.
You know, I'm pretty deep inthis right now.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I don because again I do.
You know I'm pretty deep inthis right now.
I don't appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I don't want to ruin anything, um, and I also know
that I have friends on the sidewho will give me the deets
without any spoilers so hey um,so I'm definitely interested if
they, if they're planning onhaving having it done in two
years.
It kind of makes wonder isthere already a script?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
in there, I would think.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Because two years is a very ambitious timeline if
they don't have anything inwriting yet.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I would think, yeah, I need to actually sit down and
read the full article because,of course, I've been reading
snippets from it, I've beenreading headlines and it just
came out today.
So, yeah, I need to do a deepdive on the news just to see and
a lot of times whenever theyrelease stuff like this, they
don't even tell you the wholestory, the whole story, other
than, like release day 2026.
Um, I heard some.
(12:52):
I need to.
I need to look at the articlebecause some people are like all
the people involved are goingto be like way older, that'll be
weird.
So I'm like, are they literallyusing ian mcclellan as gandalf
and vgo Mortensen as Aragorn?
Is Orlando Bloom as Legolasgoing to be in this?
Because, yeah, that would be,that would be weird, it would be
different.
But anyways, if you know, letus know in the comments,
(13:17):
otherwise I'll obviously bereading the article and many
articles come, I assume.
Okay, so that was a hugetangent, but exciting because we
love Peter Jackson, basically.
So they get let in right.
Yes, they basically exchangeinsults with Theoden and
Wormtongue for a while, and Iwrote down some of my favorites,
(13:38):
some of the notable ones, ifyou would care to rate them by
burn level.
So let's establish what thescale is.
Do you want to go like one tofive flame emojis, or what are
we talking about here?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
uh, one to five flame emoji sounds manageable.
Are we saying one flame emojiis you?
Know low grade sizzle, yeah andand five flames.
Is somebody call the fire updepartment exactly?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
yep, yep, okay.
First one, theoden de Gandalf.
When Eomer brought the tidingsthat you had gone at last year
long home, I did not mourn.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm gonna go two, two flames.
You know pretty salty, but youknow.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
More mean than like a zinger, you know, just like ugh
, definitely gave me cranky oldman vibes.
Yeah, okay, and I'm going to domy best with these impressions,
and by best I mean it's goingto be mediocre.
So Wormtongue to Gandalf, lastspell.
I name you ill news, and illnews is an ill guest.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I had highlighted this one too.
I do think that this is alittle bit more mean-spirited,
so I'll up it to three.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Three fire emojis and the word in the wording.
It's yes, it has a littlesomething um.
Okay, so worm tongue again.
And I'm not.
This is an exact quote, but hecalled the troop three ragged
wanderers in gray and calledGandalf the most beggar-like of
the four.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Two, you got nothing better to say than to diss their
clothes.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, we've been traveling, and also their
clothes are from Lothlorien Get.
With the program, galadrielhelped weave these Okay.
So Gandalf to Théoden.
The courtesy of your hall issomewhat lessened of late.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
This is one of my top three from this section.
Okay, um, and I actually wouldgive this three fire emojis
because I feel like it is sosubtle and yet very much a dig.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, like you're supposed to be this noble king,
we're all like worthy guests andwe're not getting anything good
.
Okay, this is the last one Ihave written down, so if you
have other ones, let me know,but this one is Gandalf to
Wormtongue, a witless worm youhave become.
Therefore, be silent and keepyour forked tongue behind your
(16:03):
teeth.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So that's my number five.
That was my highlighted likeTherefore, be silent and keep
your forked tongue behind yourteeth.
So that's my number five.
That was my highlighted.
Like I loved this.
And also follow up likepersonal note to follow up, I
think some version of this madeit into the movie.
It did, but it was my favorite.
So the third that I have is anhonorable mention.
I will call it.
Well, you, why don't you judgeit one through five?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
okay, okay, uh, master gandalf, you have ever
been a herald of woe okay, yeah,um, I'm gonna give it a two,
because nobody likes to hearthat they're like they're a
debbie downer right so I'm gonnagive it a.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
It was definitely my honorable mention, but it was
kind of at the top, it was kindof at the beginning of the
exchanges and I was like, oh,we're starting out a little
spicy.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
But yeah, no, this is tense.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth and I
was like snap, that is good.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Oh yeah, I got gotta use that one.
I hopefully never.
That would be kind of rude totell somebody that, but if I
need to, I've got it ready inthe chamber.
It's on tap, yeah, okay.
So gandalf, dramatically asalways, frees theoden from the
darkness that was holding him inhis clutches.
In the midst of the exchange,aragorn and eowyn eomer's niece
(17:29):
sorry, theoden's niece lock eyes.
First, things first.
Do you ship?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
um, I no, I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure.
So, and there's another scenelater on where I actually
highlighted it and I was like,is this romance?
Question mark.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Maybe a one-sided romance.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You know, I was like this is not and I don't.
I don't read Tolkien forromance, right, that's not, I
don't need it to be.
But, I was like is that whatthis was supposed to be?
Because I don't yeah signaledthat to me.
Um, so I I did think that it wasinteresting to have aon be
(18:17):
taken with aragorn.
If nothing else is arepresentative of the rest of
humanity, that is taken witharagorn.
Male, female and be whoever youmay be, I think there's tons of
us who are in love with Aragornto one extent or another.
Yep, no matter how you identifyit's a relatable condition, is
(18:39):
all.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I'm saying, it sure is.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
So I get it from that perspective.
I and to create maybe a littlebit of movie magic tension, the
distance between Aragorn andArwen and you know to, to kind
of manifest a bit of a triangle,uh, but no, I, what I realized
reading this chapter is I don'tship, yeah, no, no shade to
(19:01):
anybody who does.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I was just like, oh, I learned something about myself
today I do feel like tolkientook the time to be like okay,
so this is the.
This is how aragorn's effect onwomen, you know like.
Have you the?
Uh, the office episode whereidris elba is a guest and he's
like I'm aware of my effect?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
on women yes.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So in that way it was like okay, tolkien, and like
you know, for the third womanthat we've met in this entire
series, um, after galadriel andarwen, who didn't even speak, uh
, we've got eowyn and she is thefirst human woman that we've
met and she is immediately goingto fall in love with aragorn.
At least that's the vibe hewanted to make sure that we got,
(19:39):
uh, whereas aragorn in his mindis like, oh, she's beautiful
but cold.
And then later he's like, oh,this is a nice exchange between
us, but I'm not gonna smile, youknow, it's just like he's very
much.
There's like a big wall there,which makes sense, assuming he's
with arwen, which he is likewe've established that right
(19:59):
because he, because she left himthat present with galadriel and
yes, but even that was verybackhanded and left me going.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Is this romance?
Speaker 1 (20:08):
yeah, are they together?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
it's true, yeah, it's been very we're not sure, and
that's fine, right, like if it'san epic adventure story.
Um, you know, the romance slantis not required by any means I
just am like are you actuallytrying to do that?
I'm not 100 sure if that's whatyou're trying to do.
Is this love?
Is this love because I?
(20:31):
This love Because I was likethe one contact between Aragorn
and Erowind is their handsaccidentally touch on a cup and
she fills with hope and he fillswith dread is how it reads.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and I'm like oh, no, Ew.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So in my head, my super sarcastic head, I was like
the lady in the tramp scene.
Where Is this love?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And Aragorn's like.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yep, pretty much that's what it feels like for
now.
So the second question I hadabout this dramatic exchange is
how'd you like Theoden's release?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I liked Theoden's release.
I do think it was more subtleand felt like it had a couple of
stages to it.
In reading it, I do think thathaving seen the way Peter
Jackson did it on screen helpedme.
I do think that having seen theway Peter Jackson did it on
screen helped me because I don'tthink I would have gotten that
(21:37):
at the end this was in fact atransformation without having
that mental imagery to pull on,because, again, I'm not very
good at coming up with visualson my own.
So I did think that it was moresubtle and in that way also
kind of like a little bit moreinsidious, like how long it had
taken for him to get this far umfor a worm tongue to have had
(22:00):
this kind of effect on him.
Um, and how gradual it must havebeen.
And to see, uh, you know thatkind of just alleviated in
several very specific steps bygandalf and the interactions
that they had yeah, I thought itwas really good and I, I don't
know, I I would call thisliterary umami.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
But then after he kind of comes out of it, he says
dark have been my dreams oflate, but I feel as one new,
awakened.
That's.
That's, that's also, I believe,pulled line for line into the
movies and it just like it.
Just he kind of gives you theidea he's just been under this
cloud, under the shroud, like hehasn't been himself and uh, and
(22:41):
I agree that his physicaltransformation it was written
into the book but, like I,there's nothing quite like
showing, you know, somethinglike that happening on the
screen.
It was definitely.
I think we got more crusty onthe screen than I would have
pictured just reading it.
And yeah, it's just like thedegree of change I think was
(23:05):
more severe than I would havepictured it in the movie, yeah,
in the book than I would havepictured.
No, it was more severe in themovie than I would have pictured
it in the movie.
Yeah, in the book than I wouldhave pictured.
No, it was more severe in themovie than I would have pictured
it just from the book.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Just based on the book description, but I think
the accentuation by PeterJackson and his team was well
served.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I agree, I agree, there was some of it, though,
like I will say, you know, likehim standing up straight once he
got the sword.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I was just going to say I didn't realize we were in
it until there was anotherinteraction and he stood up
straighter and I was like oh,this is happening, it's kind of
happening gradually viaconversation, as he's kind of
being verbally shaken from thehaze that he is in.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So it totally.
There's some theatrics, but welove Gandalf for the theatrics.
And then boom, yeah, he took,he takes him outside.
So then theoden decides to freeaimer, who I hadn't mentioned,
but aimer was in prison, I guess, for basically going against
something.
Worm tongue wanted.
Um, theoden calls the riders ofrohan to arms and he banishes
(24:09):
worm tonguetongue.
Rather than imprisoning him,would you have done the same?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
No, but I am not a gracious leader.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I would.
I'm not all that good natured.
I think that somebody who canexert that kind of influence
shouldn't be left roaming around, especially in such dark times.
But I think that I can getbehind why he did it.
I just I'm not always on theside of merciful because I'm
(24:45):
always concerned that mercifulis going to bite you in the butt
.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, people keep showing mercy in these books,
right, we had Bilbo with Gollum,you know, and now Theoden with
Wormtongue, who had been fullycorrupting the whole thing for a
while, and we'll actually see.
Well, I don't know if it's inthis recording, but we'll see
(25:09):
more of it soon, actually, thisrecording, but we'll see more of
it soon actually.
Um, so yeah, we've got theodenbestowing upon gandalf shadowfax
officially, officially, handingover the title.
So thank god for that.
And upon legolas and gimliornate armaments.
The writers prepare for war andtheoden, after seemingly
forgetting that eowyn existed,appointed her the steward of the
(25:30):
hall, since there wereliterally no male options.
Did this make you feel any typeof way?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I don't ever like the woman being a last ditch effort
, like being the last option.
Yeah, but it is not an unheardof convention, especially at the
time of writing.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, it does not justify it, it's just the way a
lot of things were handled backthen I think the way it was
worded was the worst thing forme, because it was bannon's over
here, just like there are noother people in this line, and
his guard had to be like, yeah,there are.
What?
What about her?
She's literally, yeah, she'sstanding right there.
(26:19):
What do you like?
Yeah, it was uh, yeah, it wasdisappointing, but ultimately I
was happy that he she did getappointed.
It wasn't like a she can't doit, she's a woman.
So at least there was that like.
That was an exciting littleturn of events.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, that's the silver lining.
There was no.
Well, this job can't be done bya woman.
At least there was none of that.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right, right, a woman beloved by all like perfect,
great.
We love, we love her we love tosee it.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Okay, so the chapter ends with Eowyn watching the
glitter of the departing rider'sspears, standing still alone
before the doors of the silenthouse.
Any final thoughts?
I had another quote that Thaydensaid about Amir when he was
releasing him from custody.
Faithful heart may have afroward tongue, which just means
contrary, and I just I lovedthat.
(27:28):
It's again, it's just a sillything, but the wording was
interesting.
And then the only other notethat I had was just that I
thought that Wormtongue was justas greasy and distasteful in
the book and he was sowonderfully portrayed by the
(27:48):
actor in the movie, don't get mewrong, but he had really good
source material by the actor inthe movie, don't get me wrong,
but he had really good sourcematerial because every it it was
, it was almost like it was very, uh, two-faced politician as
well as just you you're, I cantell.
I can just tell by listening toyou talk that you are a no good
(28:13):
dirty rat by the things you do,just all of it.
You're just a piece of garbageso I thought that that was
interesting.
I was like you know it's theand again, just put me in mind
of that performance I was likehe really nailed it.
He really crushed thatperformance he really did.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
And the one thing that I was just like thinking in
my head when I saw it intheaters well, and I watch it
ever since is like how do youlook at that?
The way he played, the cringing, the like sneering, the
snarling, the greasy hair, allof that, the way he played, I'm
just like how do you look atthat person and you're like
that's a worthy advisor to aking.
(28:54):
You know, just slimy, it's bad.
So he was perfect.
He literally he played itperfect.
Okay, book three, chapter sevenHelm's Deep.
So, fun fact, the Battle ofHelm's Deep is one of the
longest, if not the longest,battle scene ever committed to
(29:18):
film.
Okay, yes, and in the twotowers book it is one chapter.
And when I saw that, itliterally blew my mind and I
changed our planned chapters forthis read.
So I was like we're going toread more than this, like I
think we're going to stop here,did that?
Did this surprise you that itwas just one chapter, after
(29:41):
having seen the movies?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Uh, it did it.
It did surprise me.
But also a lot happened.
So I'm not used, I'm notunaccustomed to beefy chapters
where they man, where he managedto fit a lot into a chapter.
But at first, yes, I was like,oh, and we're moving on, got it
(30:03):
yeah, just straight.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
We visited the edit and now immediately it's time
for helms deep.
Um, I guess you and I are kindof the wrong people to be
surprised by a gigantic battletaking up one chapter, because
in the Wheel of Time books sucha thing does happen, I believe
in the final book.
No spoilers, obviously.
A single chapter called theLast Battle covers more than 600
(30:29):
pages in a standard paperbackor hard or hardcover, I don't
know, it's a long chapter it's areally long chapter, count as a
novella, all on its own, like anovel.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
It's like 600 pages of a paperback, that's I don't
think it's 600, honestly, Ithink it's closer to 250, but
what it's still in like that,that's a book to plenty of
people.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Oh yeah, for sure I must be wrong.
Then the last battle.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I have to look it up, okay, sorry.
And I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
God knows it happens.
Pages Okay, 214 pages in mycopy.
It doesn't matter, it's verylong.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
It is very long and if you're reading it in the
regular little paperback that'sgoing to be a different page
count than in the big hardcoversthat I was using.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah.
So however long it is, it'swild long.
It's long and Helm's Deepsimilarly.
Well, not similarly Nowherenear as long, but it's funny
that it's like one of thelongest battles ever committed
to film and it's a singlechapter.
So, all that being said, as thecompany rides, they run into a
messenger bearing ill tidings.
Gandalf immediately andmysteriously decides to leave,
(31:44):
bidding them to head to helmsdeep without delay and to look
for him there after an urgenterrand.
Thoughts on gandalf'smysterious exit like why did it
happen and could he not haveexplained it?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
but would he?
Could he?
Yes, but would he?
Um, I just wrote gandalf'sleaving again with my dot, dot,
dot, um, because I'm very gen X,so I love my ellipses and I
wasn't surprised.
And I wasn't surprised not toget any context.
Even since his return, he seemsto still have some really
(32:22):
inherent Gandalf ways.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, gandalf the white is still gandalf turns out
uh, yeah, him just deciding toleave and then so there were two
writers there that we got likea little aside conversation from
um, like a really sketchy convoabout gandalf's departure.
One of them felt a bit like aworm tongue sympathizer right,
because he's like, oh, you know,like the.
(32:46):
The one was like oh, we'll seewhen he gets back, and the guy's
like might be a while, justlike dude, what a loser well,
and then his friend is like well, I bet worm tongue would have
something to say about thatright.
He cites worm tongue, so it'slike are you team worm?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
so I thought it wasn't funny.
So I I think of likeshakespeare and shakespeare love
to use bystanders to interjecthumor and so I thought of that
and I kept waiting for the funny.
Um, and it wasn't.
I like, oh so, so this isn'trosencrantz and gildenstern, oh
okay, bye guys it's.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's angry people.
It's interesting because, likethis is another.
Apologies for the wheel of timereferences, but this is
something that happens in thefirst book and it happens in
show, so everyone would knowwhat it's about.
But in the Wheel of Timethere's this city that was
corrupted by like these reallyhateful like, basically the
(33:43):
hatred and greed of mangenerally right, generally right
, and so it like that, that justlike infects the entire city
and they wall themselves off andthey just don't trust anyone
and they're greedy and it justfeels like and it feels like
worm tongue, I guess, asinfluenced by saruman, possibly
as influenced by sauron, haskind of his influence, has kind
(34:05):
of like seeped into some of themen of rohan.
So they're starting to distrust, they're starting to be
dissatisfied with outsideinfluence.
And that was the first thingthat I thought of was just like
these Pete, they're sosuspicious Like, do one of them
have a corrupted dagger fromshatter low?
Got that?
I'm missing.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And I mean, if nothing else, look at how
drastic an effect he was able tohave on Théoden Right.
So who's to say he couldn't dothat to anybody who spent
prolonged amounts of time withhim?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
yeah, so worm tongue sympathizer, not a funny aside,
but like an interesting aside inthat way um, and I don't feel
like we see a lot of bystander.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
No, but no, from tolkien as a writer.
So it was a bit of a standoutmoment like oh, oh, that's it
just four lines.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Okay, yeah, just like it's.
It did feel I didn't, I didn't,I didn't place it as such, but
you're so right that it feelsvery Shakespearean, just like.
Pulls aside, like yeah, hey,buddy, you know what?
What do you think about thissituation?
Right, like it's perfect,that's, I bet that's what
inspired it.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Honestly, um I did have a note leading up to this
part.
Yeah, and I I don't feel like Iknew that there were men in
saruman's army.
So throughout this section wehear talk of other bands of men
that have been recruited intosaruman's army.
You no real context at it atthat point.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
And.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I was just sitting there going yet again, did I
watch this movie?
Because I'm like do I rememberthere being anything other than
orcs?
And I don't know that I do.
I'm not saying there weren't,I'm just saying if there were, I
certainly didn't notice, orthey just kind of blended into
(35:54):
the background and I was justlike it's an orc army.
Turns out, no, there are men inSaruman's army.
And now I know.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And there were several things that would have
been different about the Helm'sDeep in the movie and the helm's
deep in the book that we willtalk about here.
Um.
So, speaking of helm's deep,we've established in episodes
past that neither of us arebattle girlies.
So I'm not gonna break it downwith this outline, I'm not gonna
(36:26):
go like beat by beat in thebattle.
Um, I'll just ask I have somepoints lined up that I thought
was good, I thought were good,but do you have any high points
from the battle?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
um, from the battle I had a couple of I had.
Well, first off, leading upinto it, gimli has a dwarf crush
on the region and he's talkingabout there's good rocks here
and I just was like you are soprecious, I adore you, I know,
but anyways, I'm going to put onmy battle.
Girly hat now.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
No, I'm glad you mentioned that.
I should have mentioned thatbecause it was cute.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Because I was like that is the most adorable thing.
Yeah, so, and in the samebreath not in the same breath,
but pretty close after it,gimli's saying give saying give
me a row of orc necks and roomto swing and all the weariness
will fall from me.
And I could absolutely hear JohnRhys-Davies saying that Loved
it.
But I did try real hard to takesome battle-related notes.
(37:20):
So I liked the fact that theydescribed the attackers being
described as a dark tide flowingup the walls, Very creepy
Possum orcs.
So there was a band of orcsthat pretended to be dead and
stayed with the fallen orcs andthen came back from life and
attacked them.
I was like that's some shiestystuff right there.
(37:43):
And then that the orcs snuck inthrough the culvert so that
they were attacking from insideand from without.
And then the other thing that Itook note of, especially in
this chapter, is sometimes themetaphors don't land, you know,
a lot of times.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
I've already.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I've already explained that the way Tolkien
writes is very beautiful to meand I can see how it might be
difficult for some, butgenerally I don't feel like I
struggle with it too much.
But I was like I'm sorry, sir,what?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
oh my god, give me an example.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I must hear what we're talking about here he,
he's got in there upon a greatfield of dark corn describing,
I'm assuming, a field, a darknighttime field full of orcs.
But, I was like what so?
(38:37):
And I completely am fine withthe shortcomings on my part I
don't understand how you getfrom orcs to corn.
It's fine.
Most of the metaphors simile,flowerly language he uses I
really love and I find that itenhances the imagery.
This one I was just like the.
(38:58):
The what?
Speaker 1 (38:59):
excuse me so that I remember that like I, I remember
pausing on it like corn.
So they're just standing thereswaying.
That's like.
Okay, I guess that makes sense.
Sure, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
And then I had just two more things.
Sorry, the fact that thecounting thing is real in the
books.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
I had that too.
I love their little competitionCome on.
It's so cute.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I love a good bromance.
Yes, and.
Gimli and Legolas deliver onthat in spades for me, um so, uh
, the fact that they startedactually doing the counting, I
got really excited.
I like fist bumps to myselfbecause I read by myself um, but
I was very excited.
(39:49):
And then the last one was aquote from Aragorn, saying yet
Dawn is ever the hope of men.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I literally have that as one of mine.
I agree, excellent quote, butanyways, keep going.
I just wanted to be like thoseare my highlights.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
That was me being a battle girl.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
We tried our best.
Yeah, so I also have Dawn, asever, the hope of men.
Aragorn was such a leaderduring this, like he was like
saving people were saving him.
He was saving people.
He was like talking to they hadI don't know.
It was just like I think helooks at amara at one point, is
like now we'll fight together orsomething.
He was.
It was just very much like okay,argorn, like get it, man, yeah,
(40:29):
you are a dream boat, first ofall, but like secondly, yeah, I
could see the leadership thing,um, and then theoden deciding to
do his final charge was.
It was like obviously, I thinkI read like a synopsis or
something and they were like nota practical move, but you know,
like for a normal battle, um,but good for him.
(40:52):
And then only to find that theterrain had completely changed
into a forest, gandalf hadshowed up, reinforcements and
that was basically the end.
The charge was meaninglessexcept for like it's very
symbolic and nice to see um.
So this is one difference,other than the fact that there
were evil men there, the treesdid it surprise you it surprised
(41:17):
me like crazy, um, and I had.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
There was also a little bit of additional context
about saruman in here too.
That talks about there's aquote, there's an old hatred
that Saruman had inflamed.
So it talks about how the men,the bands of men, were recruited
by Saruman.
So apparently these men are,you know, had very, very old,
(41:45):
bad blood and Saruman played onthat and so that and a couple of
other things and I was like hereally he does a lot of
manipulation, misinformation,misdirection, he has.
He's got a lot of machinationsgoing in the background and that
kind of stood out to me that II don't feel again context.
(42:09):
I don't think I ever got fromthe movie if it was there and I
just didn't see it.
But no, he felt very isolated,yeah, so so that was kind of
crazy.
Also another point for aragorn.
You were talking about what agreat job he did with leadership
in this chapter and I agree, uh, to the point where he kind of
gave a, an attab to Gimli andhow he was fighting.
(42:30):
He says about Gimli never did Isee an axe so wielded, talking
up what a great fighter Gimliwas.
And I, from where we started,where dwarves are, you know
where Gimli is being kind ofdismissed and disregarded as a
subpar species in some circles.
(42:50):
To hearing Aragorn speak highlyof his fighting skills, not
just speaking lovingly or fondlyof him as a travel mate, but
actually complimenting hisbattle skills, I really I love
to see it.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, I, I love that too.
Gimli has been such a I don'twant to say a punchline, but
kind of right.
He's always like I don't wantto ride this horse, I would be
so much better on the ground.
You know a I don't want to saya punch line, but kind of right.
He's always like I don't wantto ride this horse, I would be
so much better on the ground,you know, and I don't want to
run these this distance as fastas my little legs can carry me.
Exactly he's been.
I don't want to say a hindrance,but like.
He's been keeping up with them,but like he's been the slower
(43:25):
person in the party.
He's been the person who has tofind somebody else to ride on
the back of their horse,whatever like, and now he's just
dominating.
Right, he's slaying, he'skilling the game we we love to
see.
Finally, he has the orc necksthat he's been asking for this
whole time and it was uh, it wasreally satisfying to read and
that aragornic saw it andacknowledged it and that, yeah,
(43:48):
it's, it's not just him, it'snot just us seeing it right.
It saw it and acknowledged itand that, yeah, it's not just
him, it's not just us seeing itRight.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
It was acknowledged in the story and, for whatever
reason, I got really fixated onit and I really loved it in the
moment.
Yeah, and I also take a note ofTheoden's last stand, his Butch
Cassidy moment.
I will not end here taking likean old badger in a trap I would
make such an end as will beworth a song, and you know I can
relate to that probably alittle bit more than I should.
(44:13):
Uh, and then my final note isthat, uh, and then gandalf shows
up with reinforcements like aboss, and again more bands of
men that I had never heard ofbefore well in the um in the
movie, like amr had beenbanished, right, so gandalf
shows up with aomer but so Iguess that's kind of like it's
(44:35):
it's.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
It's a different way to do it because aomer was with
aragorn and thad and but likeit's in these specific.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
You know clans of men aren't necessarily pertinent to
the story but you know, justbroadens the world that much
more.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, so and also, I guess, the different.
Another difference between themovie was gandalf told them when
he was coming back it's likelook, look for me at dawn on the
third day, or whatever in themovie.
And this time he's like I'll beback, just, I'll be back, just
you'll be fine, and theodencalls him on it too, which I
love.
Yeah, okay.
So the chapter ends with theorcs Wailing.
(45:14):
They passed under the waitingshadow of the trees and from
that shadow none ever came again.
Yes, quite the ending.
Final thoughts on the chapterbefore we do MVP.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I really liked it.
Um, and I can understand whysome folks would have wanted to
see the battle in the movie.
Maybe represent this a littlebit more.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah yeah, I agree, because, like the elves also
showed up to Helm's Deep, thatdidn't happen in the books, it
was the men.
The men did it for themselves,obviously, and Gimli and Legolas
and the trees obviously.
So I guess, like, which was sohuge and different?
Yeah, but yeah, it wasdifferent.
(46:07):
Both good, both excellent.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
It was fun, though, because I had kind of forgotten
about the trees.
Not gonna lie, I've seen themovie so many times that it was
like when the trees showed up, Iwas like, oh yeah, duh, that
happened.
Yeah, okay, okay.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we read for each episode.
Cue the music.
(46:31):
Jessica who would you name asyour MVP this episode?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
I am going to go with Gandalf again.
He broke the haze surroundingTheoden, theoden, whatever it
was and showed up withreinforcements that really
turned the tide at Helm's Deep.
I just I feel like for thesetwo chapters, that's huge.
(46:59):
You can't ignore it.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Man, we're not having any controversial.
We're not having anycontroversial, any controversial
MVPs this time around, because,I agree, I think Gandalf took
it.
I think Gimli did amazing inbattle, legolas did amazing in
battle, aragorn had thatleadership thing going for him,
(47:23):
but, man, gandalf did the thing.
He freed Théoden, he got him,he did it all.
He saved them at helm's deep,even though he was a little
sneaky about it.
That's just gandalf for you,right?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
so and if gandalf hadn't done what he had done in
chapter six, chapter sevenwouldn't have gone as well as it
did, even you know, because heneeded to break theoden free in
order for chapter seven tohappen.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
So, yeah, yeah, gandalf wins.
Um, if you disagree, let usknow who your MVP is, either on
my discord, where we talk aboutthe podcast, or in the comments
on YouTube.
Um, I, I'm curious.
I'm curious to see if anybodyhas any different results.
Of course, whatever you decideis totally acceptable.
(48:08):
I will.
I disagree with you, but it'sacceptable.
So I'm curious to see ifanybody picks anyone other than
Gandalf, because he reallyslayed these chapters, in my
opinion.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, but we want to hear it, so feel free to tell us
on discord or via social, viasocials.
So that's it for tonight.
We would ask that folks readchapters 8 through 10 for next
week.
Both critter and I want to saythank you so much for tuning
into episode 3 of season 3 ofbut are their dragons brought to
(48:43):
you by your hosts, jessicasadai and critter xd.
Don't forget to follow us atbutter their dragons on YouTube,
instagram and Tik TOK and buttdragons pod, just one T on X.
You can also find us on socialmedia as critter XD and shelf
indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're going to continue toworkshop new catchphrases, so
(49:06):
let us know on socials how youfeel about this one.
Farewell, my hobbits.
May we meet again next week.
Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host, jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Two Towers by JRR Tolkien,
with me as the resident Lord ofthe Rings veteran and me as a
first timer In this, our thirdepisode of season three.
(00:29):
We're going to discuss bookthree, chapters six through
seven, before we dive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I'm good, life is good, just busy getting ready
for summer and all that thatentails.
How about you just busy gettingready for summer?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
and all that that entails.
How about you, same same, stillhaving construction going on my
house a little bit Upstairsguest bath is becoming a laundry
room also, which is going to beso convenient, and that's like
almost done.
But I've been waking up veryearly to let my construction
people in a lot lately.
(01:06):
So I will not be sad when I cansleep in consistently, because
I am a.
I'm usually, if I have my way,I go to bed late and I wake up
late.
Yeah, but it's fine, we're fine, everything's fine, yeah,
anyways.
So let's get into this book,shall we?
Let's do it, okay.
(01:28):
So book three, chapter six, theKing of the Golden Hall.
So, especially given thechapter title, I wanted to start
this episode by acknowledgingthe amazing life lived by
Bernard Hill, who played Theoden, the king of the Golden Hall in
Peter Jackson's Lord of theRings trilogy.
He passed away the same week wewere reading this chapter, at
(01:50):
the age of 79.
He was beloved among Tolkienfans for his incredible
portrayal of King Theoden, andBilly Boyd said it perfectly I
don't think anyone spokeTolkien's words as great as
Bernard did.
He would break my heart.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
And I just wanted to say that he will be sorely
missed.
I would just say the same.
I mean I can't think of anothermore iconic role and the
gravitas he brought to that role.
It's unparalleled and it's aloss.
And just the timing was soironic and definitely he was on
(02:33):
my mind as I was going throughthis read Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, so definitely was thinking of him this whole
sequence during this read.
Such weird timing.
But may he rest in peace.
So, as far as the chapter goes,the party approaches edoras
king theoden's court and passesthe barrows where king theoden's
(02:58):
sires were buried 16 of them.
Did you notice that there wereseven on one side and nine on
the other?
That kind of gave me goosebumps, because he died at the age of
79.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
No, I didn't, but now that just made the hair on the
back of my neck stand up.
That's a little.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Isn't that?
Yeah, anyways, I thought thatwas wild.
So 16 of them resting beneaththe bright eyes in the grass was
wild.
So 16 of them resting beneaththe bright eyes in the grass.
The ever mind, the symbol, mineor symbol mean I'm not exactly
sure how to pronounce that uh,flowers that bloom year-round
where dead men rest.
Did anything stand out to youfrom the party's trek to ederas?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
uh, just that.
Again, it was so.
Uh, the plains of roandefinitely appealed to me.
Again, I think it's the horsegirl stuff and I try not, you
know, I'm sure people are tiredof hearing about that, but just
the way that it's described, theentry, and then also keeping in
mind that their encounter withEamir made it very clear that
(04:01):
Rohan has like a very strictborders closed policy and
they're essentially trying tomake it into the king's presence
undetected, virtually, so itadded a little element of
suspense there for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
For sure.
So yeah, the party gets to thegates and, as you kind of
alluded to, they're met withsome real hostility.
Eventually they're let in, butthey are forced to give up their
weapons.
Aragorn takes some real umbrageagainst giving up Andoril, but
does it anyway, and Gandalfobjects to giving up his staff
and is supported by Aragorn, whohelps him play the old man card
(04:38):
, which actually works.
Any thoughts from this sequence?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
works.
Any thoughts from this sequence?
So I well, first off, as theywere going up, I had written
down that gandalf had a a linewhere he said draw no weapons,
speak no haughty word, trying totell them all like be cool,
we're on a fast one here, um, soI thought that that was pretty
funny.
Uh, that he was trying to setthem up like this is gonna take
some finagling, don't?
ruin it um, and then I did.
(05:06):
I thought that it was hilarious, that, that I thought that that
was a bit from the movies,honestly, uh, yeah, and sir ian
mckellen did it adorably.
Uh, you know, just trying tolook um, elderly and
distinguished, in a need ofsomething to perch on the wide
eyes innocent super innocent.
(05:26):
It was hilarious and I was like,oh my god, it's, it's a shtick
from the book, like that'shilarious to me.
Um, and then the only otherthing slightly less fun is that
worm tongue had given the ordertwo days previous to not allow
anyone through the gates andthat immediately stuck out to me
Just instant red flag, Like whyis Wormtongue giving orders?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, gandalf had the same reaction.
Whenever he was mentioned, hegot really, really testy and it
definitely felt like there was aconflict brewing there.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
I also loved how you know, the rule was let nobody in
who can't speak our language,and Gandalf, first thing he did
was speak their language back tothem and they were still just
like oh, I didn't expect thatyeah, and even that was a little
fun, because I did not realizethat, um, the, the men of rohan,
(06:18):
like I didn't realize that theyspoke a different language
until going through that scene,so I didn't realize there was a
separate language yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Um, I don't know this to be true, but I assume it's
true.
Uh, I think it's in theextended edition of the lord of
the rings, but, um, at thefuneral of theoden's son, uh,
eowyn sings like a song in adifferent language and I assume
that that's that language, youknow?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
yeah, that's my guess , that's my guess again things
that like it's been so longsince I've done my last watch
and I have no idea how long it'sbeen since I've watched the
extended editions wow, that'scrazy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I didn't really I didn't realize it had been like
a really long time.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah Well, and again, I'm not someone that would go
every year around Christmas.
I watch them.
I know folks, I know you haverewatch parties at set times and
I think that's fun if you havethat sort of thing.
And I also know people thathave certain favorites that they
watch every year forThanksgiving, whatever it is.
(07:26):
I've never done that.
I am as much as I'm a moodreader, I'm a mood watcher, and
so I'd be like oh, it's been aminute, I'm due, I'm going to do
a rewatch.
So that means I have literallyno idea how long.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
And.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I think we had discussed this before.
Like I, will watch either thetheatrical cut or the extended
edition, based on whatever I canget access to digitally um but
there is a rash of in theaterscreenings happening across the
country, so and I'm hoping thatthey will uh schedule some
viewings in a theater near mynew address very soon fingers
(08:04):
crossed.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I heard and I don't know if this is true, but I want
to say they were advertisingthe first time ever in theaters
the extended editions in theremastered versions, and I heard
that that was going to be morelike June-ish.
So I've also got my fingers andtoes crossed because yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Well, some of our friends in Discord had dropped
it.
I think it's coming through AMCTheaters.
Yes, and I do believe that Junewas the date, but I have to
wait for them to come to my zipcode.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I know, yeah, I feel like I hear all kinds of things
about like early releases comingto AMC or whatever, and I check
my AMC right down the road fromme and it's like not always, it
doesn't always hit there and Ijust want, I really want the
Lord of the Rings to hit there.
I would travel, but I'd ratherjust be able to go down the
street.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So if they do whichever edition, if Fellowship
hits a big screen because I'venever seen it on the big screen,
I will 110% be going to see iton the big screen, no matter
which edition they're airing youmust, you must, it is, it's a
perfect movie.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's a perfect movie.
I love it so much that it'sjust chef's kiss, um.
But I am biased.
They are my favorite movies, sobut I don't know if that's
biased as much as just you know,recognizing game and movies,
they've got game.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
They do.
They absolutely do.
It was.
You know, I was much youngerwhen those came out.
We all were, and I was justlike well, poo-poo on that and
I'm not going to have anythingto do with it and I'll just wait
and watch it in the comfort ofmy home.
Looking at it now and the waythat I just went and religiously
watched Dune in the movietheater, like on opening weekend
(09:48):
because I knew that for me Ineeded to experience that movie
on the big screen.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
If I had to do it all over again, I absolutely would
have gone and seen it first onthe big screen this is not a
breaking news podcast, but wedid just get news today that
there are Peter Jacksonaffiliated Lord of the Rings
movies coming down the pipeline.
The first one that I, you knowI want to say.
(10:15):
I saw an article that saidthere were two coming, but the
first one is like the hunt forGollum.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So I saw that too.
I didn't click on it, cause I'mscared to click on things, but
as soon as I saw the title thehunt for Gollum I was like I get
that reference.
I know about that.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I thought the same thing.
I was like, oh my gosh, likethat's something that we read
about, like that's somethingthat Gandalf described to us and
like Aragorn also kind of toldus about.
I think, uh, and I guess, likedirected by andy circus, which
is funny.
Funny because this week for mymovie club I just watched rise
of the planet the apes, whichyou know, andy circus once again
absolutely slaying, with all ofthe motion capture and whatever
(10:57):
, um, playing caesar the ape, Ibelieve is what he did in that
movie.
Um, but anyway, so like havinghim involved, having peter
jackson involved, having it be astory that actually exists in
the books, all of these thingshave me just a little excited
yeah, I mean, who knows how longit'll take to come to fruition,
but it is um, you know, it kindof revives in me a little bit
(11:21):
of that excitement only thistime I feel like I'm in on the
joke a little bit more, becauseyou know, you know, now I know
what?
the hunt for speed?
We know what that like, we knowwhat that is, I know what that
is.
Um, yeah, I mean so far they'resaying it's projecting or
whatever for 2026, which to meit feels like you know we're I'm
in the in the time of jamescameron, where 10 years go by
(11:44):
and you don't get a new Avatarmovie.
You know, if they really do itthat quickly, then awesome,
that's great.
But I guess Peter Jackson isthe guy who shot three Lord of
the Rings movies in three years,right?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
So I guess they must have a script then.
So, like I said, I didn't clickon it because again, I do.
You know, I'm pretty deep inthis right now.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I don because again I do.
You know I'm pretty deep inthis right now.
I don't appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I don't want to ruin anything, um, and I also know
that I have friends on the sidewho will give me the deets
without any spoilers so hey um,so I'm definitely interested if
they, if they're planning onhaving having it done in two
years.
It kind of makes wonder isthere already a script?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
in there, I would think.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Because two years is a very ambitious timeline if
they don't have anything inwriting yet.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I would think, yeah, I need to actually sit down and
read the full article because,of course, I've been reading
snippets from it, I've beenreading headlines and it just
came out today.
So, yeah, I need to do a deepdive on the news just to see and
a lot of times whenever theyrelease stuff like this, they
don't even tell you the wholestory, the whole story, other
than, like release day 2026.
Um, I heard some.
(12:52):
I need to.
I need to look at the articlebecause some people are like all
the people involved are goingto be like way older, that'll be
weird.
So I'm like, are they literallyusing ian mcclellan as gandalf
and vgo Mortensen as Aragorn?
Is Orlando Bloom as Legolasgoing to be in this?
Because, yeah, that would be,that would be weird, it would be
different.
But anyways, if you know, letus know in the comments,
(13:17):
otherwise I'll obviously bereading the article and many
articles come, I assume.
Okay, so that was a hugetangent, but exciting because we
love Peter Jackson, basically.
So they get let in right.
Yes, they basically exchangeinsults with Theoden and
Wormtongue for a while, and Iwrote down some of my favorites,
(13:38):
some of the notable ones, ifyou would care to rate them by
burn level.
So let's establish what thescale is.
Do you want to go like one tofive flame emojis, or what are
we talking about here?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
uh, one to five flame emoji sounds manageable.
Are we saying one flame emojiis you?
Know low grade sizzle, yeah andand five flames.
Is somebody call the fire updepartment exactly?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
yep, yep, okay.
First one, theoden de Gandalf.
When Eomer brought the tidingsthat you had gone at last year
long home, I did not mourn.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm gonna go two, two flames.
You know pretty salty, but youknow.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
More mean than like a zinger, you know, just like ugh
, definitely gave me cranky oldman vibes.
Yeah, okay, and I'm going to domy best with these impressions,
and by best I mean it's goingto be mediocre.
So Wormtongue to Gandalf, lastspell.
I name you ill news, and illnews is an ill guest.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I had highlighted this one too.
I do think that this is alittle bit more mean-spirited,
so I'll up it to three.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Three fire emojis and the word in the wording.
It's yes, it has a littlesomething um.
Okay, so worm tongue again.
And I'm not.
This is an exact quote, but hecalled the troop three ragged
wanderers in gray and calledGandalf the most beggar-like of
the four.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Two, you got nothing better to say than to diss their
clothes.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, we've been traveling, and also their
clothes are from Lothlorien Get.
With the program, galadrielhelped weave these Okay.
So Gandalf to Théoden.
The courtesy of your hall issomewhat lessened of late.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
This is one of my top three from this section.
Okay, um, and I actually wouldgive this three fire emojis
because I feel like it is sosubtle and yet very much a dig.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, like you're supposed to be this noble king,
we're all like worthy guests andwe're not getting anything good
.
Okay, this is the last one Ihave written down, so if you
have other ones, let me know,but this one is Gandalf to
Wormtongue, a witless worm youhave become.
Therefore, be silent and keepyour forked tongue behind your
(16:03):
teeth.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So that's my number five.
That was my highlighted likeTherefore, be silent and keep
your forked tongue behind yourteeth.
So that's my number five.
That was my highlighted.
Like I loved this.
And also follow up likepersonal note to follow up, I
think some version of this madeit into the movie.
It did, but it was my favorite.
So the third that I have is anhonorable mention.
I will call it.
Well, you, why don't you judgeit one through five?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
okay, okay, uh, master gandalf, you have ever
been a herald of woe okay, yeah,um, I'm gonna give it a two,
because nobody likes to hearthat they're like they're a
debbie downer right so I'm gonnagive it a.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
It was definitely my honorable mention, but it was
kind of at the top, it was kindof at the beginning of the
exchanges and I was like, oh,we're starting out a little
spicy.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
But yeah, no, this is tense.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth and I
was like snap, that is good.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Oh yeah, I got gotta use that one.
I hopefully never.
That would be kind of rude totell somebody that, but if I
need to, I've got it ready inthe chamber.
It's on tap, yeah, okay.
So gandalf, dramatically asalways, frees theoden from the
darkness that was holding him inhis clutches.
In the midst of the exchange,aragorn and eowyn eomer's niece
(17:29):
sorry, theoden's niece lock eyes.
First, things first.
Do you ship?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
um, I no, I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure.
So, and there's another scenelater on where I actually
highlighted it and I was like,is this romance?
Question mark.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Maybe a one-sided romance.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You know, I was like this is not and I don't.
I don't read Tolkien forromance, right, that's not, I
don't need it to be.
But, I was like is that whatthis was supposed to be?
Because I don't yeah signaledthat to me.
Um, so I I did think that it wasinteresting to have aon be
(18:17):
taken with aragorn.
If nothing else is arepresentative of the rest of
humanity, that is taken witharagorn.
Male, female and be whoever youmay be, I think there's tons of
us who are in love with Aragornto one extent or another.
Yep, no matter how you identifyit's a relatable condition, is
(18:39):
all.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I'm saying, it sure is.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
So I get it from that perspective.
I and to create maybe a littlebit of movie magic tension, the
distance between Aragorn andArwen and you know to, to kind
of manifest a bit of a triangle,uh, but no, I, what I realized
reading this chapter is I don'tship, yeah, no, no shade to
(19:01):
anybody who does.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I was just like, oh, I learned something about myself
today I do feel like tolkientook the time to be like okay,
so this is the.
This is how aragorn's effect onwomen, you know like.
Have you the?
Uh, the office episode whereidris elba is a guest and he's
like I'm aware of my effect?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
on women yes.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So in that way it was like okay, tolkien, and like
you know, for the third womanthat we've met in this entire
series, um, after galadriel andarwen, who didn't even speak, uh
, we've got eowyn and she is thefirst human woman that we've
met and she is immediately goingto fall in love with aragorn.
At least that's the vibe hewanted to make sure that we got,
(19:39):
uh, whereas aragorn in his mindis like, oh, she's beautiful
but cold.
And then later he's like, oh,this is a nice exchange between
us, but I'm not gonna smile, youknow, it's just like he's very
much.
There's like a big wall there,which makes sense, assuming he's
with arwen, which he is likewe've established that right
(19:59):
because he, because she left himthat present with galadriel and
yes, but even that was verybackhanded and left me going.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Is this romance?
Speaker 1 (20:08):
yeah, are they together?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
it's true, yeah, it's been very we're not sure, and
that's fine, right, like if it'san epic adventure story.
Um, you know, the romance slantis not required by any means I
just am like are you actuallytrying to do that?
I'm not 100 sure if that's whatyou're trying to do.
Is this love?
Is this love because I?
(20:31):
This love Because I was likethe one contact between Aragorn
and Erowind is their handsaccidentally touch on a cup and
she fills with hope and he fillswith dread is how it reads.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and I'm like oh, no, Ew.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So in my head, my super sarcastic head, I was like
the lady in the tramp scene.
Where Is this love?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And Aragorn's like.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yep, pretty much that's what it feels like for
now.
So the second question I hadabout this dramatic exchange is
how'd you like Theoden's release?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I liked Theoden's release.
I do think it was more subtleand felt like it had a couple of
stages to it.
In reading it, I do think thathaving seen the way Peter
Jackson did it on screen helpedme.
I do think that having seen theway Peter Jackson did it on
screen helped me because I don'tthink I would have gotten that
(21:37):
at the end this was in fact atransformation without having
that mental imagery to pull on,because, again, I'm not very
good at coming up with visualson my own.
So I did think that it was moresubtle and in that way also
kind of like a little bit moreinsidious, like how long it had
taken for him to get this far umfor a worm tongue to have had
(22:00):
this kind of effect on him.
Um, and how gradual it must havebeen.
And to see, uh, you know thatkind of just alleviated in
several very specific steps bygandalf and the interactions
that they had yeah, I thought itwas really good and I, I don't
know, I I would call thisliterary umami.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
But then after he kind of comes out of it, he says
dark have been my dreams oflate, but I feel as one new,
awakened.
That's.
That's, that's also, I believe,pulled line for line into the
movies and it just like it.
Just he kind of gives you theidea he's just been under this
cloud, under the shroud, like hehasn't been himself and uh, and
(22:41):
I agree that his physicaltransformation it was written
into the book but, like I,there's nothing quite like
showing, you know, somethinglike that happening on the
screen.
It was definitely.
I think we got more crusty onthe screen than I would have
pictured just reading it.
And yeah, it's just like thedegree of change I think was
(23:05):
more severe than I would havepictured it in the movie, yeah,
in the book than I would havepictured.
No, it was more severe in themovie than I would have pictured
it in the movie.
Yeah, in the book than I wouldhave pictured.
No, it was more severe in themovie than I would have pictured
it just from the book.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Just based on the book description, but I think
the accentuation by PeterJackson and his team was well
served.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I agree, I agree, there was some of it, though,
like I will say, you know, likehim standing up straight once he
got the sword.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I was just going to say I didn't realize we were in
it until there was anotherinteraction and he stood up
straighter and I was like oh,this is happening, it's kind of
happening gradually viaconversation, as he's kind of
being verbally shaken from thehaze that he is in.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So it totally.
There's some theatrics, but welove Gandalf for the theatrics.
And then boom, yeah, he took,he takes him outside.
So then theoden decides to freeaimer, who I hadn't mentioned,
but aimer was in prison, I guess, for basically going against
something.
Worm tongue wanted.
Um, theoden calls the riders ofrohan to arms and he banishes
(24:09):
worm tonguetongue.
Rather than imprisoning him,would you have done the same?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
No, but I am not a gracious leader.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I would.
I'm not all that good natured.
I think that somebody who canexert that kind of influence
shouldn't be left roaming around, especially in such dark times.
But I think that I can getbehind why he did it.
I just I'm not always on theside of merciful because I'm
(24:45):
always concerned that mercifulis going to bite you in the butt
.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, people keep showing mercy in these books,
right, we had Bilbo with Gollum,you know, and now Theoden with
Wormtongue, who had been fullycorrupting the whole thing for a
while, and we'll actually see.
Well, I don't know if it's inthis recording, but we'll see
(25:09):
more of it soon, actually, thisrecording, but we'll see more of
it soon actually.
Um, so yeah, we've got theodenbestowing upon gandalf shadowfax
officially, officially, handingover the title.
So thank god for that.
And upon legolas and gimliornate armaments.
The writers prepare for war andtheoden, after seemingly
forgetting that eowyn existed,appointed her the steward of the
(25:30):
hall, since there wereliterally no male options.
Did this make you feel any typeof way?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I don't ever like the woman being a last ditch effort
, like being the last option.
Yeah, but it is not an unheardof convention, especially at the
time of writing.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, it does not justify it, it's just the way a
lot of things were handled backthen I think the way it was
worded was the worst thing forme, because it was bannon's over
here, just like there are noother people in this line, and
his guard had to be like, yeah,there are.
What?
What about her?
She's literally, yeah, she'sstanding right there.
(26:19):
What do you like?
Yeah, it was uh, yeah, it wasdisappointing, but ultimately I
was happy that he she did getappointed.
It wasn't like a she can't doit, she's a woman.
So at least there was that like.
That was an exciting littleturn of events.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, that's the silver lining.
There was no.
Well, this job can't be done bya woman.
At least there was none of that.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right, right, a woman beloved by all like perfect,
great.
We love, we love her we love tosee it.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Okay, so the chapter ends with Eowyn watching the
glitter of the departing rider'sspears, standing still alone
before the doors of the silenthouse.
Any final thoughts?
I had another quote that Thaydensaid about Amir when he was
releasing him from custody.
Faithful heart may have afroward tongue, which just means
contrary, and I just I lovedthat.
(27:28):
It's again, it's just a sillything, but the wording was
interesting.
And then the only other notethat I had was just that I
thought that Wormtongue was justas greasy and distasteful in
the book and he was sowonderfully portrayed by the
(27:48):
actor in the movie, don't get mewrong, but he had really good
source material by the actor inthe movie, don't get me wrong,
but he had really good sourcematerial because every it it was
, it was almost like it was very, uh, two-faced politician as
well as just you you're, I cantell.
I can just tell by listening toyou talk that you are a no good
(28:13):
dirty rat by the things you do,just all of it.
You're just a piece of garbageso I thought that that was
interesting.
I was like you know it's theand again, just put me in mind
of that performance I was likehe really nailed it.
He really crushed thatperformance he really did.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
And the one thing that I was just like thinking in
my head when I saw it intheaters well, and I watch it
ever since is like how do youlook at that?
The way he played, the cringing, the like sneering, the
snarling, the greasy hair, allof that, the way he played, I'm
just like how do you look atthat person and you're like
that's a worthy advisor to aking.
(28:54):
You know, just slimy, it's bad.
So he was perfect.
He literally he played itperfect.
Okay, book three, chapter sevenHelm's Deep.
So, fun fact, the Battle ofHelm's Deep is one of the
longest, if not the longest,battle scene ever committed to
(29:18):
film.
Okay, yes, and in the twotowers book it is one chapter.
And when I saw that, itliterally blew my mind and I
changed our planned chapters forthis read.
So I was like we're going toread more than this, like I
think we're going to stop here,did that?
Did this surprise you that itwas just one chapter, after
(29:41):
having seen the movies?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Uh, it did it.
It did surprise me.
But also a lot happened.
So I'm not used, I'm notunaccustomed to beefy chapters
where they man, where he managedto fit a lot into a chapter.
But at first, yes, I was like,oh, and we're moving on, got it
(30:03):
yeah, just straight.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
We visited the edit and now immediately it's time
for helms deep.
Um, I guess you and I are kindof the wrong people to be
surprised by a gigantic battletaking up one chapter, because
in the Wheel of Time books sucha thing does happen, I believe
in the final book.
No spoilers, obviously.
A single chapter called theLast Battle covers more than 600
(30:29):
pages in a standard paperbackor hard or hardcover, I don't
know, it's a long chapter it's areally long chapter, count as a
novella, all on its own, like anovel.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
It's like 600 pages of a paperback, that's I don't
think it's 600, honestly, Ithink it's closer to 250, but
what it's still in like that,that's a book to plenty of
people.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Oh yeah, for sure I must be wrong.
Then the last battle.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I have to look it up, okay, sorry.
And I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
God knows it happens.
Pages Okay, 214 pages in mycopy.
It doesn't matter, it's verylong.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
It is very long and if you're reading it in the
regular little paperback that'sgoing to be a different page
count than in the big hardcoversthat I was using.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah.
So however long it is, it'swild long.
It's long and Helm's Deepsimilarly.
Well, not similarly Nowherenear as long, but it's funny
that it's like one of thelongest battles ever committed
to film and it's a singlechapter.
So, all that being said, as thecompany rides, they run into a
messenger bearing ill tidings.
Gandalf immediately andmysteriously decides to leave,
(31:44):
bidding them to head to helmsdeep without delay and to look
for him there after an urgenterrand.
Thoughts on gandalf'smysterious exit like why did it
happen and could he not haveexplained it?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
but would he?
Could he?
Yes, but would he?
Um, I just wrote gandalf'sleaving again with my dot, dot,
dot, um, because I'm very gen X,so I love my ellipses and I
wasn't surprised.
And I wasn't surprised not toget any context.
Even since his return, he seemsto still have some really
(32:22):
inherent Gandalf ways.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, gandalf the white is still gandalf turns out
uh, yeah, him just deciding toleave and then so there were two
writers there that we got likea little aside conversation from
um, like a really sketchy convoabout gandalf's departure.
One of them felt a bit like aworm tongue sympathizer right,
because he's like, oh, you know,like the.
(32:46):
The one was like oh, we'll seewhen he gets back, and the guy's
like might be a while, justlike dude, what a loser well,
and then his friend is like well, I bet worm tongue would have
something to say about thatright.
He cites worm tongue, so it'slike are you team worm?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
so I thought it wasn't funny.
So I I think of likeshakespeare and shakespeare love
to use bystanders to interjecthumor and so I thought of that
and I kept waiting for the funny.
Um, and it wasn't.
I like, oh so, so this isn'trosencrantz and gildenstern, oh
okay, bye guys it's.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's angry people.
It's interesting because, likethis is another.
Apologies for the wheel of timereferences, but this is
something that happens in thefirst book and it happens in
show, so everyone would knowwhat it's about.
But in the Wheel of Timethere's this city that was
corrupted by like these reallyhateful like, basically the
(33:43):
hatred and greed of mangenerally right, generally right
, and so it like that, that justlike infects the entire city
and they wall themselves off andthey just don't trust anyone
and they're greedy and it justfeels like and it feels like
worm tongue, I guess, asinfluenced by saruman, possibly
as influenced by sauron, haskind of his influence, has kind
(34:05):
of like seeped into some of themen of rohan.
So they're starting to distrust, they're starting to be
dissatisfied with outsideinfluence.
And that was the first thingthat I thought of was just like
these Pete, they're sosuspicious Like, do one of them
have a corrupted dagger fromshatter low?
Got that?
I'm missing.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And I mean, if nothing else, look at how
drastic an effect he was able tohave on Théoden Right.
So who's to say he couldn't dothat to anybody who spent
prolonged amounts of time withhim?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
yeah, so worm tongue sympathizer, not a funny aside,
but like an interesting aside inthat way um, and I don't feel
like we see a lot of bystander.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
No, but no, from tolkien as a writer.
So it was a bit of a standoutmoment like oh, oh, that's it
just four lines.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Okay, yeah, just like it's.
It did feel I didn't, I didn't,I didn't place it as such, but
you're so right that it feelsvery Shakespearean, just like.
Pulls aside, like yeah, hey,buddy, you know what?
What do you think about thissituation?
Right, like it's perfect,that's, I bet that's what
inspired it.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Honestly, um I did have a note leading up to this
part.
Yeah, and I I don't feel like Iknew that there were men in
saruman's army.
So throughout this section wehear talk of other bands of men
that have been recruited intosaruman's army.
You no real context at it atthat point.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
And.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I was just sitting there going yet again, did I
watch this movie?
Because I'm like do I rememberthere being anything other than
orcs?
And I don't know that I do.
I'm not saying there weren't,I'm just saying if there were, I
certainly didn't notice, orthey just kind of blended into
(35:54):
the background and I was justlike it's an orc army.
Turns out, no, there are men inSaruman's army.
And now I know.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
And there were several things that would have
been different about the Helm'sDeep in the movie and the helm's
deep in the book that we willtalk about here.
Um.
So, speaking of helm's deep,we've established in episodes
past that neither of us arebattle girlies.
So I'm not gonna break it downwith this outline, I'm not gonna
(36:26):
go like beat by beat in thebattle.
Um, I'll just ask I have somepoints lined up that I thought
was good, I thought were good,but do you have any high points
from the battle?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
um, from the battle I had a couple of I had.
Well, first off, leading upinto it, gimli has a dwarf crush
on the region and he's talkingabout there's good rocks here
and I just was like you are soprecious, I adore you, I know,
but anyways, I'm going to put onmy battle.
Girly hat now.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
No, I'm glad you mentioned that.
I should have mentioned thatbecause it was cute.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Because I was like that is the most adorable thing.
Yeah, so, and in the samebreath not in the same breath,
but pretty close after it,gimli's saying give saying give
me a row of orc necks and roomto swing and all the weariness
will fall from me.
And I could absolutely hear JohnRhys-Davies saying that Loved
it.
But I did try real hard to takesome battle-related notes.
(37:20):
So I liked the fact that theydescribed the attackers being
described as a dark tide flowingup the walls, Very creepy
Possum orcs.
So there was a band of orcsthat pretended to be dead and
stayed with the fallen orcs andthen came back from life and
attacked them.
I was like that's some shiestystuff right there.
(37:43):
And then that the orcs snuck inthrough the culvert so that
they were attacking from insideand from without.
And then the other thing that Itook note of, especially in
this chapter, is sometimes themetaphors don't land, you know,
a lot of times.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
I've already.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I've already explained that the way Tolkien
writes is very beautiful to meand I can see how it might be
difficult for some, butgenerally I don't feel like I
struggle with it too much.
But I was like I'm sorry, sir,what?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
oh my god, give me an example.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I must hear what we're talking about here he,
he's got in there upon a greatfield of dark corn describing,
I'm assuming, a field, a darknighttime field full of orcs.
But, I was like what so?
(38:37):
And I completely am fine withthe shortcomings on my part I
don't understand how you getfrom orcs to corn.
It's fine.
Most of the metaphors simile,flowerly language he uses I
really love and I find that itenhances the imagery.
This one I was just like the.
(38:58):
The what?
Speaker 1 (38:59):
excuse me so that I remember that like I, I remember
pausing on it like corn.
So they're just standing thereswaying.
That's like.
Okay, I guess that makes sense.
Sure, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
And then I had just two more things.
Sorry, the fact that thecounting thing is real in the
books.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
I had that too.
I love their little competitionCome on.
It's so cute.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I love a good bromance.
Yes, and.
Gimli and Legolas deliver onthat in spades for me, um so, uh
, the fact that they startedactually doing the counting, I
got really excited.
I like fist bumps to myselfbecause I read by myself um, but
I was very excited.
(39:49):
And then the last one was aquote from Aragorn, saying yet
Dawn is ever the hope of men.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I literally have that as one of mine.
I agree, excellent quote, butanyways, keep going.
I just wanted to be like thoseare my highlights.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
That was me being a battle girl.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
We tried our best.
Yeah, so I also have Dawn, asever, the hope of men.
Aragorn was such a leaderduring this, like he was like
saving people were saving him.
He was saving people.
He was like talking to they hadI don't know.
It was just like I think helooks at amara at one point, is
like now we'll fight together orsomething.
He was.
It was just very much like okay,argorn, like get it, man, yeah,
(40:29):
you are a dream boat, first ofall, but like secondly, yeah, I
could see the leadership thing,um, and then theoden deciding to
do his final charge was.
It was like obviously, I thinkI read like a synopsis or
something and they were like nota practical move, but you know,
like for a normal battle, um,but good for him.
(40:52):
And then only to find that theterrain had completely changed
into a forest, gandalf hadshowed up, reinforcements and
that was basically the end.
The charge was meaninglessexcept for like it's very
symbolic and nice to see um.
So this is one difference,other than the fact that there
were evil men there, the treesdid it surprise you it surprised
(41:17):
me like crazy, um, and I had.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
There was also a little bit of additional context
about saruman in here too.
That talks about there's aquote, there's an old hatred
that Saruman had inflamed.
So it talks about how the men,the bands of men, were recruited
by Saruman.
So apparently these men are,you know, had very, very old,
(41:45):
bad blood and Saruman played onthat and so that and a couple of
other things and I was like hereally he does a lot of
manipulation, misinformation,misdirection, he has.
He's got a lot of machinationsgoing in the background and that
kind of stood out to me that II don't feel again context.
(42:09):
I don't think I ever got fromthe movie if it was there and I
just didn't see it.
But no, he felt very isolated,yeah, so so that was kind of
crazy.
Also another point for aragorn.
You were talking about what agreat job he did with leadership
in this chapter and I agree, uh, to the point where he kind of
gave a, an attab to Gimli andhow he was fighting.
(42:30):
He says about Gimli never did Isee an axe so wielded, talking
up what a great fighter Gimliwas.
And I, from where we started,where dwarves are, you know
where Gimli is being kind ofdismissed and disregarded as a
subpar species in some circles.
(42:50):
To hearing Aragorn speak highlyof his fighting skills, not
just speaking lovingly or fondlyof him as a travel mate, but
actually complimenting hisbattle skills, I really I love
to see it.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, I, I love that too.
Gimli has been such a I don'twant to say a punchline, but
kind of right.
He's always like I don't wantto ride this horse, I would be
so much better on the ground.
You know a I don't want to saya punch line, but kind of right.
He's always like I don't wantto ride this horse, I would be
so much better on the ground,you know, and I don't want to
run these this distance as fastas my little legs can carry me.
Exactly he's been.
I don't want to say a hindrance,but like.
He's been keeping up with them,but like he's been the slower
(43:25):
person in the party.
He's been the person who has tofind somebody else to ride on
the back of their horse,whatever like, and now he's just
dominating.
Right, he's slaying, he'skilling the game we we love to
see.
Finally, he has the orc necksthat he's been asking for this
whole time and it was uh, it wasreally satisfying to read and
that aragornic saw it andacknowledged it and that, yeah,
(43:48):
it's, it's not just him, it'snot just us seeing it right.
It saw it and acknowledged itand that, yeah, it's not just
him, it's not just us seeing itRight.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
It was acknowledged in the story and, for whatever
reason, I got really fixated onit and I really loved it in the
moment.
Yeah, and I also take a note ofTheoden's last stand, his Butch
Cassidy moment.
I will not end here taking likean old badger in a trap I would
make such an end as will beworth a song, and you know I can
relate to that probably alittle bit more than I should.
(44:13):
Uh, and then my final note isthat, uh, and then gandalf shows
up with reinforcements like aboss, and again more bands of
men that I had never heard ofbefore well in the um in the
movie, like amr had beenbanished, right, so gandalf
shows up with aomer but so Iguess that's kind of like it's
(44:35):
it's.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
It's a different way to do it because aomer was with
aragorn and thad and but likeit's in these specific.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
You know clans of men aren't necessarily pertinent to
the story but you know, justbroadens the world that much
more.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, so and also, I guess, the different.
Another difference between themovie was gandalf told them when
he was coming back it's likelook, look for me at dawn on the
third day, or whatever in themovie.
And this time he's like I'll beback, just, I'll be back, just
you'll be fine, and theodencalls him on it too, which I
love.
Yeah, okay.
So the chapter ends with theorcs Wailing.
(45:14):
They passed under the waitingshadow of the trees and from
that shadow none ever came again.
Yes, quite the ending.
Final thoughts on the chapterbefore we do MVP.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
I really liked it.
Um, and I can understand whysome folks would have wanted to
see the battle in the movie.
Maybe represent this a littlebit more.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah yeah, I agree, because, like the elves also
showed up to Helm's Deep, thatdidn't happen in the books, it
was the men.
The men did it for themselves,obviously, and Gimli and Legolas
and the trees obviously.
So I guess, like, which was sohuge and different?
Yeah, but yeah, it wasdifferent.
(46:07):
Both good, both excellent.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
It was fun, though, because I had kind of forgotten
about the trees.
Not gonna lie, I've seen themovie so many times that it was
like when the trees showed up, Iwas like, oh yeah, duh, that
happened.
Yeah, okay, okay.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we read for each episode.
Cue the music.
(46:31):
Jessica who would you name asyour MVP this episode?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
I am going to go with Gandalf again.
He broke the haze surroundingTheoden, theoden, whatever it
was and showed up withreinforcements that really
turned the tide at Helm's Deep.
I just I feel like for thesetwo chapters, that's huge.
(46:59):
You can't ignore it.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Man, we're not having any controversial.
We're not having anycontroversial, any controversial
MVPs this time around, because,I agree, I think Gandalf took
it.
I think Gimli did amazing inbattle, legolas did amazing in
battle, aragorn had thatleadership thing going for him,
(47:23):
but, man, gandalf did the thing.
He freed Théoden, he got him,he did it all.
He saved them at helm's deep,even though he was a little
sneaky about it.
That's just gandalf for you,right?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
so and if gandalf hadn't done what he had done in
chapter six, chapter sevenwouldn't have gone as well as it
did, even you know, because heneeded to break theoden free in
order for chapter seven tohappen.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
So, yeah, yeah, gandalf wins.
Um, if you disagree, let usknow who your MVP is, either on
my discord, where we talk aboutthe podcast, or in the comments
on YouTube.
Um, I, I'm curious.
I'm curious to see if anybodyhas any different results.
Of course, whatever you decideis totally acceptable.
(48:08):
I will.
I disagree with you, but it'sacceptable.
So I'm curious to see ifanybody picks anyone other than
Gandalf, because he reallyslayed these chapters, in my
opinion.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, but we want to hear it, so feel free to tell us
on discord or via social, viasocials.
So that's it for tonight.
We would ask that folks readchapters 8 through 10 for next
week.
Both critter and I want to saythank you so much for tuning
into episode 3 of season 3 ofbut are their dragons brought to
(48:43):
you by your hosts, jessicasadai and critter xd.
Don't forget to follow us atbutter their dragons on YouTube,
instagram and Tik TOK and buttdragons pod, just one T on X.
You can also find us on socialmedia as critter XD and shelf
indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're going to continue toworkshop new catchphrases, so
(49:06):
let us know on socials how youfeel about this one.
Farewell, my hobbits.
May we meet again next week.
Bye.
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