July 30, 2024 • 44 mins
Kritter and Jessica finish book 5 in this week's episode with Chapters 9 through 10 of Return of the King. Join in as we hear Gandalf lay it all out on the line, we meet the Mouth of Sauron (and what a delight he is!), and lastly, we see Aragorn really lean into that whole destiny thing!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter.
Kritter (00:18):
And I'm your host, jess , and we're continuing this
adventure with the Return of theKing by JRR Tolkien, with me as
the resident Lord of the Ringsveteran.
Jessica (00:27):
And me as the Tolkien first timer In this our fourth
episode of season four.
Kritter (00:34):
we're going to discuss book five, chapters nine and ten
, finishing book five Before wedive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:45):
Feeling good, you know, watching grass grow like it's a
full-time job, enjoying myfirst real summer in our new
home and just loving life andreally, really loving the book.
Honestly, it feels like thislast book is a whirlwind yeah
Lots has already happened.
Kritter (01:06):
A lot has already happened.
Jessica (01:07):
It feels like this last book is a whirlwind.
So yeah, lots of, lots hasalready happened.
Kritter (01:09):
A lot has already feels early still.
Yeah, nice, how about you?
Oh well, I'm in my thirdtrimester now, so very baby
focused right now.
Basically, I agree, thoughReading the book has been a nice
little consistent thing, youknow, and I have forgotten,
forgotten or, just, like youknow, hadn't thought about
(01:31):
things that happened in the bookin a really long time.
So it's really nice to begetting back to it after 20, a
20 year hiatus, especially thethings that didn't show up in
the movies, right.
So I've also got this weekend.
So I've also got this weekend.
Obviously, whenever the episodecomes out, it will be the
previous weekend, but I'm goingto Lord of the Rings, the
(01:52):
musical in Chicago, which is soexciting, so I'm really excited
about that.
Jessica (01:56):
I mean, do they sing a song called they're Taking the
Hobbits to Isengard?
Kritter (02:01):
I'm not sure if they got the IP to that, but I hope
so, guard.
I'm not sure if they got the ipto that, but I hope so.
I, I will.
I'll be.
I'll happily report back aboutthe vibes right, because, like,
some musicals are very serious,some musicals are funny.
Um, and I haven't really lookedinto whether the lord of the
rings musical takes itself superseriously or if it's more of
like a camp adventure.
(02:23):
So we'll see.
I don't know, I'm prettyexcited about it.
Jessica (02:28):
Either way, it can be fun.
Kritter (02:29):
Oh yeah, I mean, the movies take themselves
incredibly seriously and they'remy favorite movies.
So I think I will be happyeither way, especially just
because I love the property somuch and I've never even
considered the fact that itcould be turned into a musical
until I heard that it existedand immediately bought tickets.
So I'm very, very happy thatI'll be going to see it.
Jessica (02:53):
hopefully it's really good can't wait to live
vicariously through, through youokay.
Kritter (02:59):
so now that we're caught up, moving on to the
chapters yes, okay.
So book five, chapter nine, theLast Debate.
A fair morning dawns and thefirst thing Legolas and Gimli
want to do is visit Merry andPippin.
Gimli makes a point once againto mention how much they went
(03:20):
through chasing them acrossRohan, and Gimli and Legolas
take turns critiquing the cityas they proceed through it.
This felt like a major tonechange to me.
How did it hit for you?
Jessica (03:32):
It gave big morning after vibes it really so.
I wrote in my note that Gimliand Legolas taking turns judging
the real estate with a wholevibe of their own, you know,
judging the stonework andjudging the houses and things
like that.
I think that it's a nice foilto the severity of the situation
(03:58):
.
You know it's a post-battlescene and the talk turns serious
pretty quickly.
So it was a nice littleinterjection of some of their
banter, which I love.
Kritter (04:12):
Yeah, so you mentioned.
It turns quickly.
We get back to a little moresomber of a note when Legolas
once again sees Gulls and notesthat all of his kind, the elves,
have a sea longing deep withinand that his had been kindled.
Trees just aren't going to cutit anymore.
How did you feel about this andthe reaction of everyone who
(04:35):
heard it?
Jessica (04:37):
I thought it was sad.
I did take note of the factthat he mentions the seabirds
and how Galadriel had told himto avoid them, and there were a
couple other things.
You know, gimli has a greatquote here the deeds of men will
outlast us.
You know, there was a couple ofreally quieter beats in there
that stood out to me that Ireally liked.
(04:59):
The longing for the sea was,you know, maybe a little
foreshadowing yeah so I assumeso I think so.
Kritter (05:10):
Yeah, it's uh.
It does feel sad, right,because you're like there's
plenty to see here.
What are you talking about?
Like this is great and likethis is just.
You can tell he's just likeit's pretty much the I've been
bitten by the bug man, like it'sonly a matter of time, which,
yeah, you know whenever you hear, like, if you have a good
friend or something who's movingaway, right, it's that same
(05:32):
vibe where you're just like, oh,happy for you, but also I hate
that you're leaving kind of thatwas the vibe that everybody was
giving, basically absolutely,yeah, um.
So then, mary Pippin, they'relike hanging out.
They asked Gimli and Legolasabout the paths of the dead
because they had heard aboutthem, but they didn't know what
they were.
Gimli doesn't want to talkabout it, but Legolas is willing
(05:56):
enough to spill any standoutmoments from his story and their
time with the dead army.
Jessica (06:05):
There were a couple of quotes from here that I liked,
um, and then there was a commentthat legolas made about how, uh
, you know, the ghosts of menhold no fear for them, for him,
because he basically, um, henothings them right like he
doesn't.
I don't I didn't save thatparticular quote, but he was
just like I'm not intimidated bythem in any way.
(06:28):
But when he's talking about theranks that Aragorn had called,
he had said for the dead neededno longer any weapon, but fear
None would withstand them.
And I just wrote shivery nextto it, cause I was like it's
very, very well done, um, andyeah.
(06:51):
So I thought that it was greatthat Legolas was willing to
share the story.
It's also Legolas does notnarrate very often, so it's
always nice when he's willing tocontribute to some of the story
time.
Kritter (07:02):
Yeah, I find it interesting how he's done this a
few times where he's just likeGimli's, like I don't want to
talk about the story time.
I find it interesting how he'sdone this a few times where he's
just like Gimli's, like I don'twant to talk about it.
Literally, I'm traumatized.
This is terrible and Legolas islike it didn't faze me Right,
and it's not like he's saying itto brag.
He's just saying it because it'strue, right, and that it's.
It's so, elfie, to me, right,because they're just like a
(07:26):
completely different race, theyhave a different mindset, right,
they're immortal.
There's just so much to themthat we don't always think about
, cause it's he's the guy withthe bow that doesn't say much,
right, and that's all you got, Ifound what he's called them.
Jessica (07:37):
He said powerless and frail, as I deemed them, yeah,
and he refers to them as theshadows of men, and I just was
like, oh well, that's a verypowerful way to say you know
that, you know there's.
They hold absolutely zerothreat to me whatsoever yeah,
yeah, he's just kind of it's.
Kritter (07:54):
It's a I think the kids would call it super hard like
he was just.
It was a hard statement likegood for him, because you never
think about him as just beingthis like cold.
Not that it was cold, it wasjust practical, right, it was
just just a statement like yeahfor him, because you never think
about him as just being thislike cold.
Not that it was cold, it wasjust practical right, it was
just just a statement like, not,they weren't a big deal to me,
but they were a big deal toeverybody else, because they
were literally scaring them todeath.
Um, I appreciated so arrogantaragorn deemed the dead army's
(08:20):
oath fulfilled before they gotto minas tirith.
Right, they cleared out theships, which was the big issue,
and then he let them go, whichwas different from the movie.
Did this surprise you?
Jessica (08:36):
It did.
I read it twice, I went wait.
Kritter (08:39):
I thought where are they going?
Jessica (08:41):
Yeah, I was like wait again, we're only halfway
through the book.
We're not even halfway throughthe book yet and things are
changing, which, honestly, I dosecretly love, because there's
so many times where I'm like isthat different, or have I just
forgotten so much of the movie?
But this was one of those timeswhere I was like no, no, no, no
, no, no, they're definitelyleaving sooner than I thought
(09:02):
they would, but I thought thatthat was good.
Again, I'm a fan of closure.
There are some stories that Ilove greatly that don't
necessarily do closure so well,so I liked that.
You know, their oath wasfulfilled and they were
dismissed.
Kritter (09:27):
I don't really know what implications that has for
later in the story, but I'malong for the ride anyways.
Okay, I did notice that youknow he doesn't take the army
with him to meet a seereth, buthe did manage to, if not replace
them, at least to kind ofgather a fair number of men to
his side after the army left.
Like there were slaves of aship, there were other men who
had fled and he kind of justlike, and there were other men
that they had met on the way.
(09:47):
And so, even though it'sdifferent than the movie in that
way, he still got to bring ahost with him on to Minas Tirith
, which I thought was great.
Jessica (09:57):
I think it speaks to the Riz right Like Aragorn is a
very charismatic character andhe is a born leader of men, and
the fact that he can just kindof collect these pockets of
warriors and bring them with him, yeah, people are drawn to him.
Kritter (10:16):
It's like it's not just well, I mean, yeah, it's not
just that he is the heir ofIsildur right.
He is the heir of Isildur right, the presumptive king of Gondor
, but he's just someone thatpeople want to follow because of
how incredible he is and,honestly, like fair and just
like letting them go wheneverthey did what he asked them to,
without trying to overstay hiswelcome essentially with them
(10:39):
was, while not handy when itcomes to fighting, was a good
thing of him to do it, just likereally spoke to his character.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, um, so they, let's see they.
So we found that was thebackstory, right.
(10:59):
So we're coming up, we're likejumping around, which is
interesting because they havealready showed up in our read to
Minas Tirith and they hadalready fought and all of that
stuff.
So now we're back in thepresent, to the extent that we
have a present, and Aragorn,gandalf, eomer, imrahil and
Elrond's sons have a war counciloutside the city, have a war
(11:22):
council outside the city.
Gandalf took Denethor's wordsagainst the power that has
arisen, there is no victory toheart.
Noting that the Palantiri donot lie With that info.
He concluded that the war wouldnot be won with strength of
arms and his plan is to keepSauron's eyes on them and off of
Frodo, by probably sacrificingthemselves.
(11:46):
So Gandalf, in my opinion, wasflexing his strategy muscles
here.
How did you feel about his plan, or at least his explanation?
Jessica (11:56):
His explanation was good.
I did not know.
You know, palantiri are still arelatively unknown quantity for
me.
So the clarification that theydon't actually lie they can just
choose what they show you,which we've talked about, lies
of omission, if nothing else isstill a lie.
Kritter (12:20):
It's giving like eyes to die, right Okay.
Jessica (12:22):
So we talk about the Wheel of Time.
We do.
It's giving like eyes to die,right.
Kritter (12:23):
Okay, so we talk about the Wheel of Time.
We do.
But there are these women inthe Wheel of Time that they take
oaths that they literallycannot break, and one of the
oaths is that they cannot speaka word.
That is not true.
It's maybe like near theofficial language, but there's
the saying that says the wordsyou hear or the words they speak
(12:46):
.
Jessica (12:46):
The truth.
An Aes Sedai speaks may not bethe truth that you hear, that
you think you hear.
That you think you hear, orsomething like that.
Kritter (12:53):
Yes, that's right.
And so basically the palatary,or Aes Sedai, is what I'm saying
, because they could show yousomething and you can interpret
it one way, but they could justbe very much manipulating what
they're showing you in the sensethat it could be completely
true but out of context orwhatever.
So I thought that was that wasfun.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
No, that's okay.
Jessica (13:15):
I had a couple.
I had a couple thoughts forthis section.
One was that, leading into this, as Legolas is finishing up,
like his summary of whathappened on the paths of the
dead, it struck my attentionthat Legolas took some time to
consider how frightful acharacter Aragorn would be if he
had taken on the ring.
(13:36):
Oh yeah, so I really, it's again, it's a nothing, it's like two
sentences, but it shows somebodyelse perceiving him in that way
and what a mighty terriblefigure he would be if he had
done that.
And then that talks about youknow not, for not does Mordor
fear him.
And then it mentions that hefor is he not?
(13:59):
Of the children of Luthien?
So I feel like we got thisalluded to maybe when we were at
the council of elrond at theafter party.
But, um, I did take note of itthat he is definitely a luthien
descendant, um, so that stuckout to me.
There was another quote in herethat uh came, I think Gimli,
(14:25):
that says oft hope is born whenall is forlorn.
I thought that that was justvery poetic.
Legolas, follow what may, greatdeeds are not lessened in worth
.
And then, as we come to Gandalf, kind of laying it out, and
this is what the Palantir musthave shown him, and you know,
(14:45):
it's not a lie, um, you know,and the the enemy is that hard
to face, and all of that stuff,I think the thing that struck me
the most is that he juststraight out talks about the
rings of the ring of power.
This is the first time thatI've seen Gandalf out the ring
(15:07):
of power, cause I went back andI was like, wait, who is he
talking to?
I'm flipping imaginary pagesCause it's a, it's a Kindle
people.
But yeah, I was like, oh no,he's talking to Imrahil and and
Amr and the sons of Elrond,which I don't remember Imrahil
from the movies either, or thesons of Elrond, so I'll be
(15:30):
looking for them.
But, I was like this is thefirst time in casual
conversation with someone whodidn't already know about the
ring of power where he blatantlydiscusses how that's the
context, that's the landscapewhen the Ring of Power emerges.
And I was just sitting theregoing oh, oh, we're saying that
(15:51):
part out loud.
Kritter (15:52):
Okay, gandalf's, just cards on the table we're laying
it all out.
You think you just fell out ofa coconut tree.
You exist in the context.
Basically, the context isthere's a ring of power out
there, maybe in Mordor at thispoint, and we've got to make
sure that it gets to themountain.
So what are we going to do here?
(16:13):
Like yikes.
Jessica (16:14):
So as and I think the other big takeaway for this
whole read, but definitely thispart of this chapter I feel like
I knew that it was a fool'serrand and a suicide mission for
them to ride for the black gatefrom the movie.
In my previous life I did notrealize although I'm sure
(16:37):
somebody said it right, like I'msure that it was there and I
just didn't pick up on it thatthey were committed to the bit
because that drew attention awayfor Frodo and Sam to make their
trek.
I don't know why that struck meso hard, but I was like oh,
(16:57):
that's why they were trying sohard.
It's not that they reallythought that they had a shot,
it's because they had to put onan incredibly good show to keep
the attention of Sauron focusedon them so that Sam and Frodo
had any hope of success on theirend.
Again, I'm sure it was stated,or at least heavily implied, but
(17:21):
I did not really get it untilGandalf laid it out for me, like
I'm five.
Kritter (17:26):
Well, and the thing is is in the books we get a lot
more detail right, because inthe movies we might have gotten
that line from Legolas like oneof his five lines a diversion,
but that's.
You know, that's just one thing.
In this case we get like Sauronthinks Aragorn's the ringbearer
we can bring a smaller forcethan we might otherwise need to
(17:47):
bring, because he might thinkthat this is like hubris and
that aragorn thinks he's gotmore power than he actually does
because he's got the ring right, like there's so much and and
the fact that they left peoplebehind like was not communicated
in the movies really, um, andso it's like they're literally
like no, we're basically pickingand choosing the people we're
(18:09):
sending to their deaths, likepeople who are willing, or at
least willing, to follow ordersto create this division, um, to
draw sauron's eyes and literallyjust bring enough for
plausibility yeah, yep, like,okay, this is.
This is an assault by the ringbearer and I'm gonna like, let
(18:30):
him come into my trap, likethey're basically willingly
going into a trap.
But what is it?
It's?
Is it like a guardians of thegalaxy thing, where it's like
it's not it's not really a trapif you know it's a trap if you
know it's a trap it's basicallywhat they're like logic, which I
think is so funny.
Yeah, um, but true, right, likegandalf is a, if he feels very
(18:52):
mastermindy here where he's like, let me give it to you.
Like we're not going to makethem come to us, this is how we
sell it.
Like we're not going to dragthis out because we are in the
end game here, and uh, and wegot to put all of our cards on
the table.
Jessica (19:07):
Basically, yeah, so this part was huge and again,
it's not a big departure fromthe storyline, it's just that
context really makes a hugedifferent difference for me, um,
to have it all laid out.
And a lot of times when thathappens, it just so happens that
it's gandalf dropping right,like he's just explaining things
in a way that really makes it,drives it home, and those were
(19:32):
things that, you know, youngerme didn't even think anything of
right, like I just blindly tookit, but now it's rooted in
something a little bit morefactual.
And then, you know, there werea couple of really great quotes
through this part, but I thinkmy favorite one is uprooting the
evil in the fields that we knowso that those who live after
(19:55):
may have clean earth to till, toidolize, you know, or make seem
more desirable a veryagricultural lifestyle, a very
simplistic lifestyle, forexample, life in the shire,
(20:16):
where you grow crops and thingslike that and are at one with
nature.
Kritter (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, I love that line too.
It's like it starts I wrote thewhole like it's not the whole
thing, honestly, but he startsthat with it is not our part to
master all the tides of theworld, but to do what is in us
for the sucker of those yearswherein we are set.
It's, it's it's a spin onsomething that was said in the
movies, a quote that Iabsolutely adore in the movies,
(20:42):
and it's like gosh, it's it's upto us to do what we will with
the time that is given to us, orsomething like that.
Like I'm just spitballingthat's not completely wine for
line, but he said something alot like that and uh, and that
always gives me chills, and so,seeing it worded differently but
having the same vibe, right,we're doing what we can do now
(21:05):
in the time that's given to us.
And then this secondary partthat you read, which is
basically like it might not workout for us but it could help
future generations, like it justfeels so selfless and noble and
amazing.
And yeah, I really do loveGandalf in this section
personally.
Okay, so the chapter ends withAragorn drawing Andoril and
(21:27):
saying that it wouldn't besheathed again until the last
battle was fought.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthis chapter?
Any final thoughts before wemove on?
Jessica (21:39):
There were just so many great quotes None of them are
like movie worthy quotes butthere was so much language here
like movie-worthy quotes.
But there was so much languagehere, even just in that part
where it talks about well, firstoff, the reveal that Sauron is
himself but a servant or anemissary, which is something I
heard referenced before out ofcontext.
I don't think I heard it, Idon't think I read it in the
(22:02):
books necessarily, but this ismy first recollection at least
of the story specificallymentioning that he is just an
emissary.
There are several times in thisparticular section where, if we
win, gandalf is emphasizinglike if we win here, sauron will
never recuperate to the powerthat he is now.
He will always be just thislow-level malice in the
(22:24):
background that gnaws itself inthe shadows.
I mean, come on who talks likethat and Aragorn is talking
about.
We must make ourselves bait.
Another great Aragorn quote asI have begun, so I will go on.
We come now to the very brinkwhere hope and despair are akin
(22:45):
to waiver is to fall.
Kritter (22:47):
I mean, that's movie worthy.
Yes, that one is definitelymovie worthy.
Big fan of that one Idefinitely misspoke.
Jessica (22:54):
And then Imrahil, I believe, just going.
Surely this is the greatestjest in all the history of
Gondor that we should ride with7,000, essentially as a child
might threaten a male-cladknight with a bow of string and
green willow.
Like this is banana chips.
Like we're going to take 7,000people and knock on the gate at
(23:17):
Mordor.
Got it, but to your point.
The chapter ends with himdrawing Andoril, which is very
majestic.
Kritter (23:27):
Impractical, though Part of me is like you're not
going to cheat that again whileyou're while you're traveling,
aragorn, I think you are notreal I love the sentiment though
it's, it's a good one.
Okay, ready to move on to thenext chapter?
Yes, all right.
Book five, chapter 10, the lastchapter in book five, the Black
Gate opens.
(23:48):
So can you believe it?
We are, we're getting to theBlack Gate.
We're not there yet, but like,dang, okay, book like, let's do
this.
So we start with Mary onceagain being left behind, though
Aragorn tries to like, I guess,comfort him by saying that his's
a terrible pep talk.
His deeds have surpassedpippins anyway, and if they're
(24:10):
going to their doom, mary's doomwouldn't be far behind yeah,
like we're all gonna make a laststand somewhere you might as
well do yours here and givepippin a chance to catch up.
Jessica (24:21):
And I was like, oh, you're never gonna be a
basketball coach, sweetie, it'sokay no, and the thing is, is
he's so inspirational in otherways?
Kritter (24:29):
he really is what are you doing, uh?
Jessica (24:34):
yeah, I think this is end game, aragorn.
He doesn't have a lot of hopeto spare.
Kritter (24:39):
He's tired he's a little tired.
Like you'll be fine, like youshould count your blessings that
you're not coming with us.
Basically, it just means thatyou're gonna die.
Jessica (24:47):
Stay on the injured reserve list, you're fine right,
exactly so, um.
Kritter (24:54):
The party departs and makes its way to mordor.
They repaired the beheadedstatue at the crossroads,
directed trumpeters to heraldthe king elisar's retaking of
the land, decided against takingMinas Morgul first at Gandalf's
insistence, and got shaved downto about 6,000 by Aragorn's
dismissal of the men who losthope entering the more desolate
(25:16):
lands.
Thoughts about this journey.
Jessica (25:20):
Well, at the top of this chapter I got like two
sentences in and went okay, soit's official no Sam or Frodo
for the first half of this book.
Okay, not really, but okay.
And then the announcing, theheralding at every intersection.
It took me until like thesecond or third intersection to
(25:43):
understand the import of whythey were doing that and how
much of this is for show.
Again, if I hadn't had thatexplained to me in the last
chapter, I think I'd be likewhat the hell are we doing, guys
?
What's the point of this?
Kritter (25:57):
what are we?
Okay, so that makes sense.
Actually, I didn't really in mymind.
I was like what, like aragorn's, not really one to show off, so
it felt out of character.
Jessica (26:06):
But now that you're pointing now that it's a
diversion, of course they weregoing to do that, and a ring
bound aragorn right like a ringbound aragorn is more likely
based on what we've seen in thebooks, to want the glory and
want the accolades and and towant the call out.
Kritter (26:26):
So it's such a good point, I didn't even think about
that.
Jessica (26:29):
But again, I at first I was like why are we?
Why are we shouting atcrossroads guys?
What are we?
What are we doing with this?
Uh, I got there eventually.
Um, another really good quote,this part uh, so time and the
hopeless journey wore away.
Uh, talking about theirprogression through to the Black
Gate, which is just a crazygood quote.
Kritter (26:51):
Yeah for sure.
So we get to the iron doors ofthe Black Gate.
They come into view, nazgulwatching from above, and the
captains ride forth,representatives from all the
enemies of Mordor, includingPippin, with Gandalf as their
chief herald.
Eventually, the lieutenant ofthe Tower of Barad-dûr, the
(27:16):
mouth of Sauron, rides throughthe gate on a demonic horse.
The way it was described ispretty frightening, is pretty
frightening.
He was of the race called theBlack Numenoreans, a lover of
evil, knowledge learned in andlearned in sorcery, more evil
than any orc.
Anything about this description, kind of gets your attention,
(27:39):
pique your interest.
Jessica (27:41):
So I didn't know that there was a mouth of Sauron.
I think that I had heard thatsaid as a joke somewhere and
didn't know that it was a realcharacter in the books.
Kritter (27:52):
Then I can confirm that you have not seen the extended
editions, because you wouldremember him.
Jessica (27:59):
Okay, I legitimately cannot wait.
It is teed up.
It's like first spot in myfavorite ready to play list.
I cannot wait to watch thisbecause I and also I really
loved Fellowship, so I kind ofblazed through Two Towers and
Return.
(28:19):
But whenever I would have likethe hankering for a Lord of the
Rings fix, I would go toFellowship more often.
It's a perfect movie.
Kritter (28:28):
I can't blame you.
Jessica (28:30):
So yeah, I don't feel like I knew that there was a
mouth of Sauron.
I don't feel like I knew that.
And then we talked aboutthere's a banner which is black,
but on it is a red evil eye,ominous AF.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm and I wrote uh,there is an actual mouth of
(28:52):
sauron question mark.
Oh, and he's a real prize, he'slike a really good guy.
Yes, real stand-up dude.
Uh, so there's free snark inevery set of notes I have.
Kritter (29:05):
Yeah I guess, I guess.
So it's the way he wasdescribed, right?
He was of the race called theBlack Numenoreans and in my mind
I was wondering like is he?
You know, because theNumenoreans came over like a
really old dude that has sort oflike I don't know, been
preserved because of his sorceryand or his ancestry, because
(29:35):
the new minorians lived a reallyreally long time that's true.
So, yeah, maybe a combination ofboth, I don't know.
But anyways, the it intriguedme because he is presented
differently I won't say how inthe movies, and so the fact that
they were like he is he ishuman to me was shocking, kind
of shocking, um.
(29:56):
So yeah, I was.
Jessica (29:58):
I was very intrigued to to read about him again for the
first time in 20 years soreading reading his interactions
with aragorn and Gandalf, againthat context that was set up in
the last chapter, they playedtheir parts perfectly right.
Like Aragorn had very littleinteraction with him but he
(30:19):
stayed in his lane and Gandalfhandled this guy the most and
the distaste and the threat areso real in the most and the
distaste and the threat are soreal in the interactions.
I really loved how this sectionwas written.
Kritter (30:35):
So I have to ask they parlay, and unfortunately Mr
Mouth brings out some tokens totaunt the good guys with Sam's
sword, a cloak and elven broochand Frodo's mithril shirt.
What was your immediatereaction to this?
Jessica (30:53):
I had the drop in the pit of my stomach, yeah, but I
was like no, I don't, you know,just because they had taken all
of the stuff off of him doesn'tmean he's necessarily dead, so,
but I did have that instant gutpunch.
And then, of course, pippinreacting, gandalf, silencing him
(31:16):
immediately Because obviouslythis character is treacherous
and wicked and full of blackknowledge, and so give him
nothing, right?
So don't say anything, don't doanything.
He's, you know, he's got waytoo much knowledge already.
You don't want to give awayanything.
Kritter (31:37):
Yeah, I feel like to me .
Some of the things that he saidwere actually.
I guess I kind of knew thatthis would happen, but the
language that he used gave awaythe fact that he only knew about
one hobbit Like that to me waslike I latched on to a lot of
the things he said because theyjust implied a singular
(32:00):
character that they had likecaptured and whatever, and were
torturing.
So in my mind I was likeGandandalf if I'm hearing this,
gandalf's hearing this too, eventhough he's despairing.
Um and so next, the so themouth offers a deal to the good
guys, essentially claiming tonsof land for sauron in exchange
(32:20):
for the return of the hobbitgandalf, almost acting like he's
going to accept the deal, takesthe tokens from the mouth but
rejects the terms.
Were you surprised by the offerin the first place, and why do
you think Gandalf behaved theway that he behaved?
Jessica (32:36):
I think he did it to see if he could draw out and
elicit any more information.
So I had the exact same thingwhere I was like, okay, so, but
he's not an omniscient character.
He does not know everything,because he thinks that this is a
single infiltrator and thatthey're spies.
Right.
(32:56):
So I was like he is notall-knowing.
And so I think that Gandalftook the moment to make it seem
like they were entertaining theterms to see if he could pull
any other little tidbits out ofhim.
Clearly, this guy thought thathe, you know, had them dead to
(33:20):
rights.
You know, by the nature of theoffer and by the nature of the
ask, he thinks that he's goteverything all stitched up.
Yeah.
And then I highlighted hisresponse because I thought that
it was because I could just hearit in Ian and sorry, ian
McKellen's voice.
These we will take in memory ofour friend, but as for your
(33:43):
terms, we reject them utterly.
Get you gone, for your embassyis over and death is near to you
.
We did not come here to wastewords in treating with Sauron
faithless and accursed, stillless with one of his slaves.
Be gone.
Kritter (33:59):
Shoo shoo, shoo shoo.
You're not even the big boss.
Yeah, I love the attitude.
It's uh, yeah it you look andhonestly like, as far as the
deal goes, whenever I heard itbecause they don't they don't do
exactly this in the movie um, Iwas shocked.
I was like sauron's, not one tobe like just let me draw a
(34:21):
border around my land and I'lljust be happily here.
I'm just like that is such BS,like who is going to acknowledge
or believe that that's going todo it for him, right?
I don't know.
It just felt disingenuous, likewhy would they even offer a
deal if it was so obviously notgoing to be enough for?
him basically, if it was soobviously not going to be enough
(34:43):
for him.
Jessica (34:44):
Basically, I liked the spit in your eye, essentially
from Gandalf, and I liked thatit made the mouth of Sauron mad.
I liked the fact that he waslaughing and joking and then
wasn't.
Kritter (34:58):
Yeah, gandalf shut him down real fast, which I really
really liked but, thatessentially kicked off the fight
, the fight, the last, the lastbattle, the big, the big
altercation.
Um, so, as the battle isstarting, uh, pippin can't help
but wish that mary were there,understanding a little better
denethor's desire to choose thetime and manner and company of
(35:21):
his death.
Did this make you feel any typeof way?
Jessica (35:26):
Well, I don't necessarily want my guy taking
lessons from Denethor in anymoment.
I know I do.
I do understand it and I dounderstand being like in a
really tight spot and wishingyou had loved ones close to you.
I was recently reminded thatthese guys are cousins.
Um, uh, I had forgotten, I hadgenuinely forgotten that there
(35:50):
was any familial, uh, relation,um, that there's is a, there's a
is a bond beyond friendship and, yeah, I felt bad for him.
I feel this is a moment forPippin that I got to have
tangibly, for Sam and for Frodo,that you know they're forever
(36:15):
changed by this experience and Ithink I might've already said
it in a past episode.
I don't feel like I had that asmuch for Mary and Pippin, Like
they went and they, they sawsome stuff right, they went
through some things, but theywere, they were kind of the
sideshow in a lot of ways andthey seem largely unchanged by
(36:38):
their experience and so when wehave these moments, they really
stand out to me because it's areminder that these guys are not
a sideshow.
They went through, you know,equally serious stuff.
They're literally making asuicide squad last stand.
And he's there on the frontlines and he thinks his friend
(37:00):
is dead.
And he misses his otherrelative.
Kritter (37:03):
It's really sad.
So Pippin is near Baragond whena group of hill trolls descends
upon them.
Baragond is stunned and falls,but Pippin manages to take down
the troll that was leaning in totear out Baragond's throat
Because apparently that's theirfinishing move.
Out Baragon's throat becauseapparently that's their
finishing move.
Unfortunately, even thoughPippin takes him down, the troll
(37:24):
falls, crushing him and.
Pippin loses consciousness, hiseyes, seeing no more as he hears
cries that the eagles arecoming.
And that is the end of thechapter and book four.
Wait, yeah, book four, no.
Book five Thoughts before wepick an MVP.
Jessica (37:46):
Amazing, an excellent chapter and an excellent tone
shift.
Hell yeah, you know he took outa troll.
Kritter (37:58):
Absolutely Good for him .
I love that.
Jessica (38:00):
The eagles are coming.
I love that the Eagles arecoming.
I love when we end on hope.
I know we can't always end onhope, but I like it when we end
on hope and I think that wasprobably my favorite part about
this chapter ending this way.
Kritter (38:15):
So you saw it as a hopeful ending.
I did To me like Pippin was notin a good place.
Jessica (38:23):
No, I mean he's's not, he's got a troll on him and
hopefully he doesn't getsmothered.
But eagles are big like theycould lift a troll off of him.
It could happen true, true,okay.
Kritter (38:31):
Well, I took the ending differently.
Okay, I took it as, like youknow, obviously for the, in the
grand scheme, the eagles comingis a cool call back to the
hobbit first of all, and like itgives hope to the people around
him.
But it just felt very much likebaragon was down, pippin was
down, pippin literally said likegoodbye in his mind to black.
(38:52):
He's yeah, he's like oh, thisis how it ends basically, and so
I guess I took it in the like Iwas more on the pippin is dying
train than the eagles arecoming train.
Jessica (39:03):
That was a side thing, so I don't know if you know this
about me Avoidance is one of myfavorite things.
Kritter (39:09):
Okay, that's fair.
Yeah, I think I was just maybein a dark place while I was
reading it and I just thought Imean you were reading it as
written.
Jessica (39:17):
I just went okay, there are eagles coming, we're going
to latch on to one little shredof hope.
Everything's fine, that's fair,okay, well, any other thoughts?
Just, you know again I've saidit so many times like there's
(39:41):
additional context that's beingadded and these are not major
life altering things.
But I have so much moreappreciation for the story with
what we've read and there arethings that were done in the
movies and choices that weremade that make far more sense to
me now than they did at thattime.
Kritter (40:00):
Okay, I love that More context.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the
characters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVP?
This episode, MVP this episode.
Jessica (40:20):
For this episode, I think that it really has to be
Aragorn, for embodying themission leader.
He is not doing any handwringing or questioning, like he
knows what the mission is.
He accepts his fate and he hassquarely, you know, filled out
(40:43):
those boots like he is in thatrole and he knows what it is and
he's gonna lead his people andhe's gonna be 100 committed um,
and I salute him for it okay,that is not what I expected.
Kritter (41:01):
I thought that this episode there was a good.
It was a firm lock that we wereboth going to pick gandalf um,
I thought about it you know whatI love, I love whatever, we
definitely thought about it.
Jessica (41:12):
Yeah, because what he did, you know presenting.
Well, I'll let you talk.
I can shut up.
Kritter (41:18):
No, no I think what you're saying.
He he teed Aragorn up.
Basically, he had the plan hehad, like, he had the internal
knowledge right.
He listened to Denethor eventhough Denethor sucks to get the
information that he needed toget to make the have the best
possible chance for Frodo andSam success.
Willing to sacrifice himself,doing it with style whenever it
(41:44):
comes to interacting with themouth.
Um, yeah, I just, I was verymuch team gandalf this episode.
Jessica (41:47):
He he had.
It was neck and neck.
It was neck and neck, I think.
I think this is part of me likemaking up with aragorn, because
there have been a few timesalong the travel where he has
been very equivocal, he's beenvery hand-wringy and indecisive,
and I don't care for that.
Okay, that's fair.
And so now we're here therubber meets the road.
(42:11):
It's time, and even thoughthere are definite reasons why
he was chafing against hisdestiny leading up to this, the
time has come and he is beingthe man that he was destined to
be, and so that's ultimatelywhat made me sway my vote to him
over Gandalf, because whatGandalf did was incredibly
(42:34):
crucial.
I would never, but I think,ultimately, I think that that
was a little bit of payoff fromAragorn finally really being
himself Totally fair.
Kritter (42:49):
I mean, I get it, I get it so.
Okay, that's interesting.
So we have two clearfrontrunners coming out of us
Gandalf and Aragorn.
Coming out of us, Gandalf andAragorn, If you want to weigh in
on your MVP choice, let us knowon Discord, let us know in the
comments on YouTube or onTwitter, Instagram comments,
whatever you want.
We always love to hear whoyou're all's MVPs are.
(43:11):
If you come up with somebodyelse, you know, Pippin slayed a
hill troll, A troll, A troll,which is pretty wild.
So I think there's multipleoptions here that are at least
semi-valid.
No, I do come out on TeamGandalf, but totally valid
options elsewhere.
(43:31):
Okay, well, that is, as I saidit, for book five, which is wild
Read for next week book six,chapters one and two.
What do you think?
Are we moving on to Frodo andSam now?
I certainly hope so.
Jessica (43:46):
I don't like to leave those two unsupervised for too
long.
I'm ready.
I've been waiting for tonightand I am diving headfirst into
this pretty much the second weget off here.
Okay, Okay Well.
Kritter (44:00):
I love that, alrighty.
So, as I said, book six,chapters one and two for next
week, and thank you so much fortuning into our fourth episode
of season four of but Are thereDragons, brought to you by your
host, jessica Sedai, and me,critter XT.
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons?
On YouTube, instagram andTikTok and ButtDragonsPod just
(44:21):
one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
ShelfIndulgence.
That is it for today.
We are workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 4, as
always, so let us know on socialmedia how you feel about this
one.
This is our tale and it isended For now.
Goodbye, bye, bye, bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter.
Kritter (00:18):
And I'm your host, jess , and we're continuing this
adventure with the Return of theKing by JRR Tolkien, with me as
the resident Lord of the Ringsveteran.
Jessica (00:27):
And me as the Tolkien first timer In this our fourth
episode of season four.
Kritter (00:34):
we're going to discuss book five, chapters nine and ten
, finishing book five Before wedive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:45):
Feeling good, you know, watching grass grow like it's a
full-time job, enjoying myfirst real summer in our new
home and just loving life andreally, really loving the book.
Honestly, it feels like thislast book is a whirlwind yeah
Lots has already happened.
Kritter (01:06):
A lot has already happened.
Jessica (01:07):
It feels like this last book is a whirlwind.
So yeah, lots of, lots hasalready happened.
Kritter (01:09):
A lot has already feels early still.
Yeah, nice, how about you?
Oh well, I'm in my thirdtrimester now, so very baby
focused right now.
Basically, I agree, thoughReading the book has been a nice
little consistent thing, youknow, and I have forgotten,
forgotten or, just, like youknow, hadn't thought about
(01:31):
things that happened in the bookin a really long time.
So it's really nice to begetting back to it after 20, a
20 year hiatus, especially thethings that didn't show up in
the movies, right.
So I've also got this weekend.
So I've also got this weekend.
Obviously, whenever the episodecomes out, it will be the
previous weekend, but I'm goingto Lord of the Rings, the
(01:52):
musical in Chicago, which is soexciting, so I'm really excited
about that.
Jessica (01:56):
I mean, do they sing a song called they're Taking the
Hobbits to Isengard?
Kritter (02:01):
I'm not sure if they got the IP to that, but I hope
so, guard.
I'm not sure if they got the ipto that, but I hope so.
I, I will.
I'll be.
I'll happily report back aboutthe vibes right, because, like,
some musicals are very serious,some musicals are funny.
Um, and I haven't really lookedinto whether the lord of the
rings musical takes itself superseriously or if it's more of
like a camp adventure.
(02:23):
So we'll see.
I don't know, I'm prettyexcited about it.
Jessica (02:28):
Either way, it can be fun.
Kritter (02:29):
Oh yeah, I mean, the movies take themselves
incredibly seriously and they'remy favorite movies.
So I think I will be happyeither way, especially just
because I love the property somuch and I've never even
considered the fact that itcould be turned into a musical
until I heard that it existedand immediately bought tickets.
So I'm very, very happy thatI'll be going to see it.
Jessica (02:53):
hopefully it's really good can't wait to live
vicariously through, through youokay.
Kritter (02:59):
so now that we're caught up, moving on to the
chapters yes, okay.
So book five, chapter nine, theLast Debate.
A fair morning dawns and thefirst thing Legolas and Gimli
want to do is visit Merry andPippin.
Gimli makes a point once againto mention how much they went
(03:20):
through chasing them acrossRohan, and Gimli and Legolas
take turns critiquing the cityas they proceed through it.
This felt like a major tonechange to me.
How did it hit for you?
Jessica (03:32):
It gave big morning after vibes it really so.
I wrote in my note that Gimliand Legolas taking turns judging
the real estate with a wholevibe of their own, you know,
judging the stonework andjudging the houses and things
like that.
I think that it's a nice foilto the severity of the situation
(03:58):
.
You know it's a post-battlescene and the talk turns serious
pretty quickly.
So it was a nice littleinterjection of some of their
banter, which I love.
Kritter (04:12):
Yeah, so you mentioned.
It turns quickly.
We get back to a little moresomber of a note when Legolas
once again sees Gulls and notesthat all of his kind, the elves,
have a sea longing deep withinand that his had been kindled.
Trees just aren't going to cutit anymore.
How did you feel about this andthe reaction of everyone who
(04:35):
heard it?
Jessica (04:37):
I thought it was sad.
I did take note of the factthat he mentions the seabirds
and how Galadriel had told himto avoid them, and there were a
couple other things.
You know, gimli has a greatquote here the deeds of men will
outlast us.
You know, there was a couple ofreally quieter beats in there
that stood out to me that Ireally liked.
(04:59):
The longing for the sea was,you know, maybe a little
foreshadowing yeah so I assumeso I think so.
Kritter (05:10):
Yeah, it's uh.
It does feel sad, right,because you're like there's
plenty to see here.
What are you talking about?
Like this is great and likethis is just.
You can tell he's just likeit's pretty much the I've been
bitten by the bug man, like it'sonly a matter of time, which,
yeah, you know whenever you hear, like, if you have a good
friend or something who's movingaway, right, it's that same
(05:32):
vibe where you're just like, oh,happy for you, but also I hate
that you're leaving kind of thatwas the vibe that everybody was
giving, basically absolutely,yeah, um.
So then, mary Pippin, they'relike hanging out.
They asked Gimli and Legolasabout the paths of the dead
because they had heard aboutthem, but they didn't know what
they were.
Gimli doesn't want to talkabout it, but Legolas is willing
(05:56):
enough to spill any standoutmoments from his story and their
time with the dead army.
Jessica (06:05):
There were a couple of quotes from here that I liked,
um, and then there was a commentthat legolas made about how, uh
, you know, the ghosts of menhold no fear for them, for him,
because he basically, um, henothings them right like he
doesn't.
I don't I didn't save thatparticular quote, but he was
just like I'm not intimidated bythem in any way.
(06:28):
But when he's talking about theranks that Aragorn had called,
he had said for the dead neededno longer any weapon, but fear
None would withstand them.
And I just wrote shivery nextto it, cause I was like it's
very, very well done, um, andyeah.
(06:51):
So I thought that it was greatthat Legolas was willing to
share the story.
It's also Legolas does notnarrate very often, so it's
always nice when he's willing tocontribute to some of the story
time.
Kritter (07:02):
Yeah, I find it interesting how he's done this a
few times where he's just likeGimli's, like I don't want to
talk about the story time.
I find it interesting how he'sdone this a few times where he's
just like Gimli's, like I don'twant to talk about it.
Literally, I'm traumatized.
This is terrible and Legolas islike it didn't faze me Right,
and it's not like he's saying itto brag.
He's just saying it because it'strue, right, and that it's.
It's so, elfie, to me, right,because they're just like a
(07:26):
completely different race, theyhave a different mindset, right,
they're immortal.
There's just so much to themthat we don't always think about
, cause it's he's the guy withthe bow that doesn't say much,
right, and that's all you got, Ifound what he's called them.
Jessica (07:37):
He said powerless and frail, as I deemed them, yeah,
and he refers to them as theshadows of men, and I just was
like, oh well, that's a verypowerful way to say you know
that, you know there's.
They hold absolutely zerothreat to me whatsoever yeah,
yeah, he's just kind of it's.
Kritter (07:54):
It's a I think the kids would call it super hard like
he was just.
It was a hard statement likegood for him, because you never
think about him as just beingthis like cold.
Not that it was cold, it wasjust practical, right, it was
just just a statement like yeahfor him, because you never think
about him as just being thislike cold.
Not that it was cold, it wasjust practical right, it was
just just a statement like, not,they weren't a big deal to me,
but they were a big deal toeverybody else, because they
were literally scaring them todeath.
Um, I appreciated so arrogantaragorn deemed the dead army's
(08:20):
oath fulfilled before they gotto minas tirith.
Right, they cleared out theships, which was the big issue,
and then he let them go, whichwas different from the movie.
Did this surprise you?
Jessica (08:36):
It did.
I read it twice, I went wait.
Kritter (08:39):
I thought where are they going?
Jessica (08:41):
Yeah, I was like wait again, we're only halfway
through the book.
We're not even halfway throughthe book yet and things are
changing, which, honestly, I dosecretly love, because there's
so many times where I'm like isthat different, or have I just
forgotten so much of the movie?
But this was one of those timeswhere I was like no, no, no, no
, no, no, they're definitelyleaving sooner than I thought
(09:02):
they would, but I thought thatthat was good.
Again, I'm a fan of closure.
There are some stories that Ilove greatly that don't
necessarily do closure so well,so I liked that.
You know, their oath wasfulfilled and they were
dismissed.
Kritter (09:27):
I don't really know what implications that has for
later in the story, but I'malong for the ride anyways.
Okay, I did notice that youknow he doesn't take the army
with him to meet a seereth, buthe did manage to, if not replace
them, at least to kind ofgather a fair number of men to
his side after the army left.
Like there were slaves of aship, there were other men who
had fled and he kind of justlike, and there were other men
that they had met on the way.
(09:47):
And so, even though it'sdifferent than the movie in that
way, he still got to bring ahost with him on to Minas Tirith
, which I thought was great.
Jessica (09:57):
I think it speaks to the Riz right Like Aragorn is a
very charismatic character andhe is a born leader of men, and
the fact that he can just kindof collect these pockets of
warriors and bring them with him, yeah, people are drawn to him.
Kritter (10:16):
It's like it's not just well, I mean, yeah, it's not
just that he is the heir ofIsildur right.
He is the heir of Isildur right, the presumptive king of Gondor
, but he's just someone thatpeople want to follow because of
how incredible he is and,honestly, like fair and just
like letting them go wheneverthey did what he asked them to,
without trying to overstay hiswelcome essentially with them
(10:39):
was, while not handy when itcomes to fighting, was a good
thing of him to do it, just likereally spoke to his character.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, um, so they, let's see they.
So we found that was thebackstory, right.
(10:59):
So we're coming up, we're likejumping around, which is
interesting because they havealready showed up in our read to
Minas Tirith and they hadalready fought and all of that
stuff.
So now we're back in thepresent, to the extent that we
have a present, and Aragorn,gandalf, eomer, imrahil and
Elrond's sons have a war counciloutside the city, have a war
(11:22):
council outside the city.
Gandalf took Denethor's wordsagainst the power that has
arisen, there is no victory toheart.
Noting that the Palantiri donot lie With that info.
He concluded that the war wouldnot be won with strength of
arms and his plan is to keepSauron's eyes on them and off of
Frodo, by probably sacrificingthemselves.
(11:46):
So Gandalf, in my opinion, wasflexing his strategy muscles
here.
How did you feel about his plan, or at least his explanation?
Jessica (11:56):
His explanation was good.
I did not know.
You know, palantiri are still arelatively unknown quantity for
me.
So the clarification that theydon't actually lie they can just
choose what they show you,which we've talked about, lies
of omission, if nothing else isstill a lie.
Kritter (12:20):
It's giving like eyes to die, right Okay.
Jessica (12:22):
So we talk about the Wheel of Time.
We do.
It's giving like eyes to die,right.
Kritter (12:23):
Okay, so we talk about the Wheel of Time.
We do.
But there are these women inthe Wheel of Time that they take
oaths that they literallycannot break, and one of the
oaths is that they cannot speaka word.
That is not true.
It's maybe like near theofficial language, but there's
the saying that says the wordsyou hear or the words they speak
(12:46):
.
Jessica (12:46):
The truth.
An Aes Sedai speaks may not bethe truth that you hear, that
you think you hear.
That you think you hear, orsomething like that.
Kritter (12:53):
Yes, that's right.
And so basically the palatary,or Aes Sedai, is what I'm saying
, because they could show yousomething and you can interpret
it one way, but they could justbe very much manipulating what
they're showing you in the sensethat it could be completely
true but out of context orwhatever.
So I thought that was that wasfun.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
No, that's okay.
Jessica (13:15):
I had a couple.
I had a couple thoughts forthis section.
One was that, leading into this, as Legolas is finishing up,
like his summary of whathappened on the paths of the
dead, it struck my attentionthat Legolas took some time to
consider how frightful acharacter Aragorn would be if he
had taken on the ring.
(13:36):
Oh yeah, so I really, it's again, it's a nothing, it's like two
sentences, but it shows somebodyelse perceiving him in that way
and what a mighty terriblefigure he would be if he had
done that.
And then that talks about youknow not, for not does Mordor
fear him.
And then it mentions that hefor is he not?
(13:59):
Of the children of Luthien?
So I feel like we got thisalluded to maybe when we were at
the council of elrond at theafter party.
But, um, I did take note of itthat he is definitely a luthien
descendant, um, so that stuckout to me.
There was another quote in herethat uh came, I think Gimli,
(14:25):
that says oft hope is born whenall is forlorn.
I thought that that was justvery poetic.
Legolas, follow what may, greatdeeds are not lessened in worth
.
And then, as we come to Gandalf, kind of laying it out, and
this is what the Palantir musthave shown him, and you know,
(14:45):
it's not a lie, um, you know,and the the enemy is that hard
to face, and all of that stuff,I think the thing that struck me
the most is that he juststraight out talks about the
rings of the ring of power.
This is the first time thatI've seen Gandalf out the ring
(15:07):
of power, cause I went back andI was like, wait, who is he
talking to?
I'm flipping imaginary pagesCause it's a, it's a Kindle
people.
But yeah, I was like, oh no,he's talking to Imrahil and and
Amr and the sons of Elrond,which I don't remember Imrahil
from the movies either, or thesons of Elrond, so I'll be
(15:30):
looking for them.
But, I was like this is thefirst time in casual
conversation with someone whodidn't already know about the
ring of power where he blatantlydiscusses how that's the
context, that's the landscapewhen the Ring of Power emerges.
And I was just sitting theregoing oh, oh, we're saying that
(15:51):
part out loud.
Kritter (15:52):
Okay, gandalf's, just cards on the table we're laying
it all out.
You think you just fell out ofa coconut tree.
You exist in the context.
Basically, the context isthere's a ring of power out
there, maybe in Mordor at thispoint, and we've got to make
sure that it gets to themountain.
So what are we going to do here?
(16:13):
Like yikes.
Jessica (16:14):
So as and I think the other big takeaway for this
whole read, but definitely thispart of this chapter I feel like
I knew that it was a fool'serrand and a suicide mission for
them to ride for the black gatefrom the movie.
In my previous life I did notrealize although I'm sure
(16:37):
somebody said it right, like I'msure that it was there and I
just didn't pick up on it thatthey were committed to the bit
because that drew attention awayfor Frodo and Sam to make their
trek.
I don't know why that struck meso hard, but I was like oh,
(16:57):
that's why they were trying sohard.
It's not that they reallythought that they had a shot,
it's because they had to put onan incredibly good show to keep
the attention of Sauron focusedon them so that Sam and Frodo
had any hope of success on theirend.
Again, I'm sure it was stated,or at least heavily implied, but
(17:21):
I did not really get it untilGandalf laid it out for me, like
I'm five.
Kritter (17:26):
Well, and the thing is is in the books we get a lot
more detail right, because inthe movies we might have gotten
that line from Legolas like oneof his five lines a diversion,
but that's.
You know, that's just one thing.
In this case we get like Sauronthinks Aragorn's the ringbearer
we can bring a smaller forcethan we might otherwise need to
(17:47):
bring, because he might thinkthat this is like hubris and
that aragorn thinks he's gotmore power than he actually does
because he's got the ring right, like there's so much and and
the fact that they left peoplebehind like was not communicated
in the movies really, um, andso it's like they're literally
like no, we're basically pickingand choosing the people we're
(18:09):
sending to their deaths, likepeople who are willing, or at
least willing, to follow ordersto create this division, um, to
draw sauron's eyes and literallyjust bring enough for
plausibility yeah, yep, like,okay, this is.
This is an assault by the ringbearer and I'm gonna like, let
(18:30):
him come into my trap, likethey're basically willingly
going into a trap.
But what is it?
It's?
Is it like a guardians of thegalaxy thing, where it's like
it's not it's not really a trapif you know it's a trap if you
know it's a trap it's basicallywhat they're like logic, which I
think is so funny.
Yeah, um, but true, right, likegandalf is a, if he feels very
(18:52):
mastermindy here where he's like, let me give it to you.
Like we're not going to makethem come to us, this is how we
sell it.
Like we're not going to dragthis out because we are in the
end game here, and uh, and wegot to put all of our cards on
the table.
Jessica (19:07):
Basically, yeah, so this part was huge and again,
it's not a big departure fromthe storyline, it's just that
context really makes a hugedifferent difference for me, um,
to have it all laid out.
And a lot of times when thathappens, it just so happens that
it's gandalf dropping right,like he's just explaining things
in a way that really makes it,drives it home, and those were
(19:32):
things that, you know, youngerme didn't even think anything of
right, like I just blindly tookit, but now it's rooted in
something a little bit morefactual.
And then, you know, there werea couple of really great quotes
through this part, but I thinkmy favorite one is uprooting the
evil in the fields that we knowso that those who live after
(19:55):
may have clean earth to till, toidolize, you know, or make seem
more desirable a veryagricultural lifestyle, a very
simplistic lifestyle, forexample, life in the shire,
(20:16):
where you grow crops and thingslike that and are at one with
nature.
Kritter (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, I love that line too.
It's like it starts I wrote thewhole like it's not the whole
thing, honestly, but he startsthat with it is not our part to
master all the tides of theworld, but to do what is in us
for the sucker of those yearswherein we are set.
It's, it's it's a spin onsomething that was said in the
movies, a quote that Iabsolutely adore in the movies,
(20:42):
and it's like gosh, it's it's upto us to do what we will with
the time that is given to us, orsomething like that.
Like I'm just spitballingthat's not completely wine for
line, but he said something alot like that and uh, and that
always gives me chills, and so,seeing it worded differently but
having the same vibe, right,we're doing what we can do now
(21:05):
in the time that's given to us.
And then this secondary partthat you read, which is
basically like it might not workout for us but it could help
future generations, like it justfeels so selfless and noble and
amazing.
And yeah, I really do loveGandalf in this section
personally.
Okay, so the chapter ends withAragorn drawing Andoril and
(21:27):
saying that it wouldn't besheathed again until the last
battle was fought.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthis chapter?
Any final thoughts before wemove on?
Jessica (21:39):
There were just so many great quotes None of them are
like movie worthy quotes butthere was so much language here
like movie-worthy quotes.
But there was so much languagehere, even just in that part
where it talks about well, firstoff, the reveal that Sauron is
himself but a servant or anemissary, which is something I
heard referenced before out ofcontext.
I don't think I heard it, Idon't think I read it in the
(22:02):
books necessarily, but this ismy first recollection at least
of the story specificallymentioning that he is just an
emissary.
There are several times in thisparticular section where, if we
win, gandalf is emphasizinglike if we win here, sauron will
never recuperate to the powerthat he is now.
He will always be just thislow-level malice in the
(22:24):
background that gnaws itself inthe shadows.
I mean, come on who talks likethat and Aragorn is talking
about.
We must make ourselves bait.
Another great Aragorn quote asI have begun, so I will go on.
We come now to the very brinkwhere hope and despair are akin
(22:45):
to waiver is to fall.
Kritter (22:47):
I mean, that's movie worthy.
Yes, that one is definitelymovie worthy.
Big fan of that one Idefinitely misspoke.
Jessica (22:54):
And then Imrahil, I believe, just going.
Surely this is the greatestjest in all the history of
Gondor that we should ride with7,000, essentially as a child
might threaten a male-cladknight with a bow of string and
green willow.
Like this is banana chips.
Like we're going to take 7,000people and knock on the gate at
(23:17):
Mordor.
Got it, but to your point.
The chapter ends with himdrawing Andoril, which is very
majestic.
Kritter (23:27):
Impractical, though Part of me is like you're not
going to cheat that again whileyou're while you're traveling,
aragorn, I think you are notreal I love the sentiment though
it's, it's a good one.
Okay, ready to move on to thenext chapter?
Yes, all right.
Book five, chapter 10, the lastchapter in book five, the Black
Gate opens.
(23:48):
So can you believe it?
We are, we're getting to theBlack Gate.
We're not there yet, but like,dang, okay, book like, let's do
this.
So we start with Mary onceagain being left behind, though
Aragorn tries to like, I guess,comfort him by saying that his's
a terrible pep talk.
His deeds have surpassedpippins anyway, and if they're
(24:10):
going to their doom, mary's doomwouldn't be far behind yeah,
like we're all gonna make a laststand somewhere you might as
well do yours here and givepippin a chance to catch up.
Jessica (24:21):
And I was like, oh, you're never gonna be a
basketball coach, sweetie, it'sokay no, and the thing is, is
he's so inspirational in otherways?
Kritter (24:29):
he really is what are you doing, uh?
Jessica (24:34):
yeah, I think this is end game, aragorn.
He doesn't have a lot of hopeto spare.
Kritter (24:39):
He's tired he's a little tired.
Like you'll be fine, like youshould count your blessings that
you're not coming with us.
Basically, it just means thatyou're gonna die.
Jessica (24:47):
Stay on the injured reserve list, you're fine right,
exactly so, um.
Kritter (24:54):
The party departs and makes its way to mordor.
They repaired the beheadedstatue at the crossroads,
directed trumpeters to heraldthe king elisar's retaking of
the land, decided against takingMinas Morgul first at Gandalf's
insistence, and got shaved downto about 6,000 by Aragorn's
dismissal of the men who losthope entering the more desolate
(25:16):
lands.
Thoughts about this journey.
Jessica (25:20):
Well, at the top of this chapter I got like two
sentences in and went okay, soit's official no Sam or Frodo
for the first half of this book.
Okay, not really, but okay.
And then the announcing, theheralding at every intersection.
It took me until like thesecond or third intersection to
(25:43):
understand the import of whythey were doing that and how
much of this is for show.
Again, if I hadn't had thatexplained to me in the last
chapter, I think I'd be likewhat the hell are we doing, guys
?
What's the point of this?
Kritter (25:57):
what are we?
Okay, so that makes sense.
Actually, I didn't really in mymind.
I was like what, like aragorn's, not really one to show off, so
it felt out of character.
Jessica (26:06):
But now that you're pointing now that it's a
diversion, of course they weregoing to do that, and a ring
bound aragorn right like a ringbound aragorn is more likely
based on what we've seen in thebooks, to want the glory and
want the accolades and and towant the call out.
Kritter (26:26):
So it's such a good point, I didn't even think about
that.
Jessica (26:29):
But again, I at first I was like why are we?
Why are we shouting atcrossroads guys?
What are we?
What are we doing with this?
Uh, I got there eventually.
Um, another really good quote,this part uh, so time and the
hopeless journey wore away.
Uh, talking about theirprogression through to the Black
Gate, which is just a crazygood quote.
Kritter (26:51):
Yeah for sure.
So we get to the iron doors ofthe Black Gate.
They come into view, nazgulwatching from above, and the
captains ride forth,representatives from all the
enemies of Mordor, includingPippin, with Gandalf as their
chief herald.
Eventually, the lieutenant ofthe Tower of Barad-dûr, the
(27:16):
mouth of Sauron, rides throughthe gate on a demonic horse.
The way it was described ispretty frightening, is pretty
frightening.
He was of the race called theBlack Numenoreans, a lover of
evil, knowledge learned in andlearned in sorcery, more evil
than any orc.
Anything about this description, kind of gets your attention,
(27:39):
pique your interest.
Jessica (27:41):
So I didn't know that there was a mouth of Sauron.
I think that I had heard thatsaid as a joke somewhere and
didn't know that it was a realcharacter in the books.
Kritter (27:52):
Then I can confirm that you have not seen the extended
editions, because you wouldremember him.
Jessica (27:59):
Okay, I legitimately cannot wait.
It is teed up.
It's like first spot in myfavorite ready to play list.
I cannot wait to watch thisbecause I and also I really
loved Fellowship, so I kind ofblazed through Two Towers and
Return.
(28:19):
But whenever I would have likethe hankering for a Lord of the
Rings fix, I would go toFellowship more often.
It's a perfect movie.
Kritter (28:28):
I can't blame you.
Jessica (28:30):
So yeah, I don't feel like I knew that there was a
mouth of Sauron.
I don't feel like I knew that.
And then we talked aboutthere's a banner which is black,
but on it is a red evil eye,ominous AF.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm and I wrote uh,there is an actual mouth of
(28:52):
sauron question mark.
Oh, and he's a real prize, he'slike a really good guy.
Yes, real stand-up dude.
Uh, so there's free snark inevery set of notes I have.
Kritter (29:05):
Yeah I guess, I guess.
So it's the way he wasdescribed, right?
He was of the race called theBlack Numenoreans and in my mind
I was wondering like is he?
You know, because theNumenoreans came over like a
really old dude that has sort oflike I don't know, been
preserved because of his sorceryand or his ancestry, because
(29:35):
the new minorians lived a reallyreally long time that's true.
So, yeah, maybe a combination ofboth, I don't know.
But anyways, the it intriguedme because he is presented
differently I won't say how inthe movies, and so the fact that
they were like he is he ishuman to me was shocking, kind
of shocking, um.
(29:56):
So yeah, I was.
Jessica (29:58):
I was very intrigued to to read about him again for the
first time in 20 years soreading reading his interactions
with aragorn and Gandalf, againthat context that was set up in
the last chapter, they playedtheir parts perfectly right.
Like Aragorn had very littleinteraction with him but he
(30:19):
stayed in his lane and Gandalfhandled this guy the most and
the distaste and the threat areso real in the most and the
distaste and the threat are soreal in the interactions.
I really loved how this sectionwas written.
Kritter (30:35):
So I have to ask they parlay, and unfortunately Mr
Mouth brings out some tokens totaunt the good guys with Sam's
sword, a cloak and elven broochand Frodo's mithril shirt.
What was your immediatereaction to this?
Jessica (30:53):
I had the drop in the pit of my stomach, yeah, but I
was like no, I don't, you know,just because they had taken all
of the stuff off of him doesn'tmean he's necessarily dead, so,
but I did have that instant gutpunch.
And then, of course, pippinreacting, gandalf, silencing him
(31:16):
immediately Because obviouslythis character is treacherous
and wicked and full of blackknowledge, and so give him
nothing, right?
So don't say anything, don't doanything.
He's, you know, he's got waytoo much knowledge already.
You don't want to give awayanything.
Kritter (31:37):
Yeah, I feel like to me .
Some of the things that he saidwere actually.
I guess I kind of knew thatthis would happen, but the
language that he used gave awaythe fact that he only knew about
one hobbit Like that to me waslike I latched on to a lot of
the things he said because theyjust implied a singular
(32:00):
character that they had likecaptured and whatever, and were
torturing.
So in my mind I was likeGandandalf if I'm hearing this,
gandalf's hearing this too, eventhough he's despairing.
Um and so next, the so themouth offers a deal to the good
guys, essentially claiming tonsof land for sauron in exchange
(32:20):
for the return of the hobbitgandalf, almost acting like he's
going to accept the deal, takesthe tokens from the mouth but
rejects the terms.
Were you surprised by the offerin the first place, and why do
you think Gandalf behaved theway that he behaved?
Jessica (32:36):
I think he did it to see if he could draw out and
elicit any more information.
So I had the exact same thingwhere I was like, okay, so, but
he's not an omniscient character.
He does not know everything,because he thinks that this is a
single infiltrator and thatthey're spies.
Right.
(32:56):
So I was like he is notall-knowing.
And so I think that Gandalftook the moment to make it seem
like they were entertaining theterms to see if he could pull
any other little tidbits out ofhim.
Clearly, this guy thought thathe, you know, had them dead to
(33:20):
rights.
You know, by the nature of theoffer and by the nature of the
ask, he thinks that he's goteverything all stitched up.
Yeah.
And then I highlighted hisresponse because I thought that
it was because I could just hearit in Ian and sorry, ian
McKellen's voice.
These we will take in memory ofour friend, but as for your
(33:43):
terms, we reject them utterly.
Get you gone, for your embassyis over and death is near to you
.
We did not come here to wastewords in treating with Sauron
faithless and accursed, stillless with one of his slaves.
Be gone.
Kritter (33:59):
Shoo shoo, shoo shoo.
You're not even the big boss.
Yeah, I love the attitude.
It's uh, yeah it you look andhonestly like, as far as the
deal goes, whenever I heard itbecause they don't they don't do
exactly this in the movie um, Iwas shocked.
I was like sauron's, not one tobe like just let me draw a
(34:21):
border around my land and I'lljust be happily here.
I'm just like that is such BS,like who is going to acknowledge
or believe that that's going todo it for him, right?
I don't know.
It just felt disingenuous, likewhy would they even offer a
deal if it was so obviously notgoing to be enough for?
him basically, if it was soobviously not going to be enough
(34:43):
for him.
Jessica (34:44):
Basically, I liked the spit in your eye, essentially
from Gandalf, and I liked thatit made the mouth of Sauron mad.
I liked the fact that he waslaughing and joking and then
wasn't.
Kritter (34:58):
Yeah, gandalf shut him down real fast, which I really
really liked but, thatessentially kicked off the fight
, the fight, the last, the lastbattle, the big, the big
altercation.
Um, so, as the battle isstarting, uh, pippin can't help
but wish that mary were there,understanding a little better
denethor's desire to choose thetime and manner and company of
(35:21):
his death.
Did this make you feel any typeof way?
Jessica (35:26):
Well, I don't necessarily want my guy taking
lessons from Denethor in anymoment.
I know I do.
I do understand it and I dounderstand being like in a
really tight spot and wishingyou had loved ones close to you.
I was recently reminded thatthese guys are cousins.
Um, uh, I had forgotten, I hadgenuinely forgotten that there
(35:50):
was any familial, uh, relation,um, that there's is a, there's a
is a bond beyond friendship and, yeah, I felt bad for him.
I feel this is a moment forPippin that I got to have
tangibly, for Sam and for Frodo,that you know they're forever
(36:15):
changed by this experience and Ithink I might've already said
it in a past episode.
I don't feel like I had that asmuch for Mary and Pippin, Like
they went and they, they sawsome stuff right, they went
through some things, but theywere, they were kind of the
sideshow in a lot of ways andthey seem largely unchanged by
(36:38):
their experience and so when wehave these moments, they really
stand out to me because it's areminder that these guys are not
a sideshow.
They went through, you know,equally serious stuff.
They're literally making asuicide squad last stand.
And he's there on the frontlines and he thinks his friend
(37:00):
is dead.
And he misses his otherrelative.
Kritter (37:03):
It's really sad.
So Pippin is near Baragond whena group of hill trolls descends
upon them.
Baragond is stunned and falls,but Pippin manages to take down
the troll that was leaning in totear out Baragond's throat
Because apparently that's theirfinishing move.
Out Baragon's throat becauseapparently that's their
finishing move.
Unfortunately, even thoughPippin takes him down, the troll
(37:24):
falls, crushing him and.
Pippin loses consciousness, hiseyes, seeing no more as he hears
cries that the eagles arecoming.
And that is the end of thechapter and book four.
Wait, yeah, book four, no.
Book five Thoughts before wepick an MVP.
Jessica (37:46):
Amazing, an excellent chapter and an excellent tone
shift.
Hell yeah, you know he took outa troll.
Kritter (37:58):
Absolutely Good for him .
I love that.
Jessica (38:00):
The eagles are coming.
I love that the Eagles arecoming.
I love when we end on hope.
I know we can't always end onhope, but I like it when we end
on hope and I think that wasprobably my favorite part about
this chapter ending this way.
Kritter (38:15):
So you saw it as a hopeful ending.
I did To me like Pippin was notin a good place.
Jessica (38:23):
No, I mean he's's not, he's got a troll on him and
hopefully he doesn't getsmothered.
But eagles are big like theycould lift a troll off of him.
It could happen true, true,okay.
Kritter (38:31):
Well, I took the ending differently.
Okay, I took it as, like youknow, obviously for the, in the
grand scheme, the eagles comingis a cool call back to the
hobbit first of all, and like itgives hope to the people around
him.
But it just felt very much likebaragon was down, pippin was
down, pippin literally said likegoodbye in his mind to black.
(38:52):
He's yeah, he's like oh, thisis how it ends basically, and so
I guess I took it in the like Iwas more on the pippin is dying
train than the eagles arecoming train.
Jessica (39:03):
That was a side thing, so I don't know if you know this
about me Avoidance is one of myfavorite things.
Kritter (39:09):
Okay, that's fair.
Yeah, I think I was just maybein a dark place while I was
reading it and I just thought Imean you were reading it as
written.
Jessica (39:17):
I just went okay, there are eagles coming, we're going
to latch on to one little shredof hope.
Everything's fine, that's fair,okay, well, any other thoughts?
Just, you know again I've saidit so many times like there's
(39:41):
additional context that's beingadded and these are not major
life altering things.
But I have so much moreappreciation for the story with
what we've read and there arethings that were done in the
movies and choices that weremade that make far more sense to
me now than they did at thattime.
Kritter (40:00):
Okay, I love that More context.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the
characters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVP?
This episode, MVP this episode.
Jessica (40:20):
For this episode, I think that it really has to be
Aragorn, for embodying themission leader.
He is not doing any handwringing or questioning, like he
knows what the mission is.
He accepts his fate and he hassquarely, you know, filled out
(40:43):
those boots like he is in thatrole and he knows what it is and
he's gonna lead his people andhe's gonna be 100 committed um,
and I salute him for it okay,that is not what I expected.
Kritter (41:01):
I thought that this episode there was a good.
It was a firm lock that we wereboth going to pick gandalf um,
I thought about it you know whatI love, I love whatever, we
definitely thought about it.
Jessica (41:12):
Yeah, because what he did, you know presenting.
Well, I'll let you talk.
I can shut up.
Kritter (41:18):
No, no I think what you're saying.
He he teed Aragorn up.
Basically, he had the plan hehad, like, he had the internal
knowledge right.
He listened to Denethor eventhough Denethor sucks to get the
information that he needed toget to make the have the best
possible chance for Frodo andSam success.
Willing to sacrifice himself,doing it with style whenever it
(41:44):
comes to interacting with themouth.
Um, yeah, I just, I was verymuch team gandalf this episode.
Jessica (41:47):
He he had.
It was neck and neck.
It was neck and neck, I think.
I think this is part of me likemaking up with aragorn, because
there have been a few timesalong the travel where he has
been very equivocal, he's beenvery hand-wringy and indecisive,
and I don't care for that.
Okay, that's fair.
And so now we're here therubber meets the road.
(42:11):
It's time, and even thoughthere are definite reasons why
he was chafing against hisdestiny leading up to this, the
time has come and he is beingthe man that he was destined to
be, and so that's ultimatelywhat made me sway my vote to him
over Gandalf, because whatGandalf did was incredibly
(42:34):
crucial.
I would never, but I think,ultimately, I think that that
was a little bit of payoff fromAragorn finally really being
himself Totally fair.
Kritter (42:49):
I mean, I get it, I get it so.
Okay, that's interesting.
So we have two clearfrontrunners coming out of us
Gandalf and Aragorn.
Coming out of us, Gandalf andAragorn, If you want to weigh in
on your MVP choice, let us knowon Discord, let us know in the
comments on YouTube or onTwitter, Instagram comments,
whatever you want.
We always love to hear whoyou're all's MVPs are.
(43:11):
If you come up with somebodyelse, you know, Pippin slayed a
hill troll, A troll, A troll,which is pretty wild.
So I think there's multipleoptions here that are at least
semi-valid.
No, I do come out on TeamGandalf, but totally valid
options elsewhere.
(43:31):
Okay, well, that is, as I saidit, for book five, which is wild
Read for next week book six,chapters one and two.
What do you think?
Are we moving on to Frodo andSam now?
I certainly hope so.
Jessica (43:46):
I don't like to leave those two unsupervised for too
long.
I'm ready.
I've been waiting for tonightand I am diving headfirst into
this pretty much the second weget off here.
Okay, Okay Well.
Kritter (44:00):
I love that, alrighty.
So, as I said, book six,chapters one and two for next
week, and thank you so much fortuning into our fourth episode
of season four of but Are thereDragons, brought to you by your
host, jessica Sedai, and me,critter XT.
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons?
On YouTube, instagram andTikTok and ButtDragonsPod just
(44:21):
one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
ShelfIndulgence.
That is it for today.
We are workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 4, as
always, so let us know on socialmedia how you feel about this
one.
This is our tale and it isended For now.
Goodbye, bye, bye, bye.
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