May 28, 2024 • 66 mins
Kritter and Jessica return to The Two Towers to finish book 3, chapter 11 and begin book 4 with chapters 1 and 2. At the end of book 3, Gandalf teaches us about the Palantiri while also (thankfully) saving Pippin's biscuits! Book 4 finally brings us back to Sam and Frodo but unfortunately brings Gollum back as well, and some real talk about the dangers they face and what that may mean for their return, if they get one!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:06):
Hello, welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, Kritter, and I'myour host Jess.
Kritter (00:19):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Two
Towers by JRR Tolkien, with meas the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:24):
with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran, and
me as the Lord of the Rings,first timer In this our fifth
episode of season three.
Kritter (00:32):
We're going to discuss book three, chapter 11, and book
four, chapters one and two.
So pretty exciting that we'vemade it into book four.
How are you feeling, jessica?
Jessica (00:46):
Very excited we get to see some old friends by breaking
into book four.
Kritter (00:51):
Did you expect that?
Like being broken up by book.
Jessica (00:54):
I actually didn't.
So this is another thing whereI really don't look ahead.
So I didn't even look atchapter titles.
Kritter (01:02):
So as.
Jessica (01:02):
I flipped into uh, book four and saw the first chapter
title, I was like oh, I probablycould have guessed, but I
didn't why?
Why, well like I like to cometo the experience fresh I like
it.
Kritter (01:16):
that's a good attitude to have, um, but before we do
revisit some of our old friends,we've got more recent friends
in uh, while we're still in bookthree, so are you ready to dive
in Any new news?
I will point out, if you're notwatching on YouTube but you are
listening on the podcastplatform, jessica's got a bit of
a different background going.
(01:37):
How excited are you for that?
What do we have behind you?
If you want to describe it?
Jessica (01:42):
What do we have behind you, if you want to describe it?
So what we have behind me is aridiculously large bookshelf
that I just purchased andchucker block filled with
everything that has been inboxes.
I think I've mentioned beforethat we were about to perform a
move.
Said move is done, new shelvesacquired and swag is
(02:04):
appropriately represented behindme.
So I'm very excited.
Because of my old space, Iwasn't able to have my shelves
behind me, so I am super excited.
Kritter (02:13):
That's what's new with me.
That's awesome.
So what I can see right nowfrom where I'm at is we've got
some Wheel of Time, we've gotsome Brandon Sanderson, we've
got Gone with the Wind likefront and center.
Do you have Lord of the ringson your shelves?
Jessica (02:27):
I do right above the hobbit and lord of the rings is
in a little set right there.
I also have a gray down there,lord of the rings but it didn't
fit the aesthetic that washappening over here.
These are all my little books.
Oh, that's so cute.
Kritter (02:48):
So organization schemes like the way they just
sometimes.
Jessica (02:51):
There was lots of tweaking.
There was lots of tweaking.
I kept sending people finalpictures and then, three to five
minutes later, I'd send themanother final picture.
Kritter (03:02):
Well, I have to say congratulations.
I think it looks amazing.
I love a good bookshelf and Ithink you really nailed it.
The shelfy game is strong heretoday.
Thanks, chica.
All right, you ready to getinto the books?
Let's do it.
The book, I guess.
Okay.
So book three, chapter 11, thePalantir, the party departs.
(03:24):
Isengard and Merry manages toget some information from
Gandalf about their next stepswhen they camp for the night.
Pippin is inconsolably curiousabout Gandalf, and particularly
the mysterious glass ball, henotes.
He knows he can't have it withGandalf sitting on it like a hen
on an egg, but he doesn't justleave it at that.
(03:45):
Thoughts on Pippin's insatiablecuriosity and a little bit of
burglary in this chapter.
Jessica (03:52):
So at first I didn't think much of it, which I think
leads to you know, leads me tocompliment the subtlety of
Tolkien when he wrote it.
At first I didn't really thinkmuch of it, and then the way
that he kept kind of houndingMary about how he just wasn't
going to be able to go to sleepwithout knowing more, and at one
(04:14):
point I had tabbed it,highlighted it in my Kindle and
it said this feels a lot likering-type behavior and I don't
like it.
And it said this feels a lotlike ring-type behavior and I
don't like it.
Kritter (04:26):
Oh, Okay, I can see that.
See, I was thinking more alongthe lines of he's giving Bilbo
here like the consummate burglar.
You know, he even went so faras to replace the Palantir with
a stone, so that Gandalfwouldn't notice.
Jessica (04:41):
Very Indiana.
Kritter (04:42):
Jones, very Indiana Jones.
Jessica (04:45):
Yeah.
Kritter (04:45):
It's just like you know , we were so surprised or maybe
we weren't surprised, but it wasfun to see how Bilbo kind of
eventually came to thrive in hisburglar role, and it turns out
that he's not the only hobbitthat's got some skills.
Jessica (04:58):
No, that was really impressive, but it was.
It was both things at once.
It was impressive how he wasable to get it away from Gandalf
, but also equally terrifyingthat he wanted it so bad that he
was willing to go to thoselengths.
And in my mind I had alreadydrawn a correlation between the
draw of this palantir and thering that it heightened the
(05:19):
discomfort I felt as well.
It heightened the discomfort Ifelt as well.
Kritter (05:24):
Yeah, no, it's like a really good connection to have
made.
I didn't even think about itthat way, but he was like truly
fixated on it the moment he sawit.
It turns out he just got hooked.
So, yeah, it's giving ring forsure.
So we didn't get anything fromthis at first.
As far as details, pippin takesit, he looks into it, he
(05:46):
screams and he gets caught.
This left me kind of impatientfor details.
Were you like oh, we're notgoing to find anything out at
this point, or did you expectsomething later?
Jessica (05:58):
I hoped that we would get something.
So there is another book seriesfrom my childhood called
Dragonlance and there is amagical orb that does gnarly
things to people in it in thatbook, and so that very much put
me in mind of that.
For any you know, dragonlancebuffs out there.
So I was like they're going totell us, they're absolutely
(06:22):
going to tell us.
But I was.
I was absolutely on the edge ofmy seat.
Obviously, this is all newcontent for me.
I had no idea what to expectfrom this, so I was very
enthralled for this chapter.
Kritter (06:35):
So he did eventually relay what went down with some
major prying from Gandalf.
Were there any standout detailsfor you?
Jessica (06:45):
I have highlighted here .
Forgive you, tell me first whatyou have done and I had also.
I don't think I wrote it downthat you know the look on
Gandalf's face was like haggardand weary and he was very
concerned about pippin's welfare.
(07:05):
Um, or at least that's how Ichose to read it.
Um, there's also another great,great quote from this area do
not meddle in the affairs ofwizards, for they are subtle and
quick to anger.
I had not heard that quotebefore, so I thought that that
was pretty neat.
Kritter (07:23):
Um it honestly, that does.
It sounds just like a phraseanybody could say you know, it
sounds like obvious words ofwisdom that I could have thought
of if I thought about it for asecond.
But it's just, you know, ofcourse.
That's of course.
Jessica (07:36):
That's the case, yeah so, uh and honestly, mary and
pippin, leading up to this, hadjust had a discussion of how
Gandalf was the same, but alsohow Gandalf was different, and
even the way they described itwas.
You know, good old Gandalf, butalso a little scarier you know,
to paraphrase how they said itthat's really, you know.
(07:59):
Oh, he's still Gandalf, butlike a little bit scarier.
Kritter (08:05):
Yeah, not fully sure what his vibe is.
Jessica (08:21):
So I thought that this was fascinating, that Pippin was
reluctant to own up to whatactually happened because he
knew that he had messed up sobad and was genuinely scared to
tell Gandalf.
But this was another huge loredump that seems like it's only
about the Palantir, but stillgave me so much more insight
into the difference and therelationship between Isengard
and Mordor, Sauron and Sarumanand the nature of the Palantir
(08:42):
itself, like I really only knowwhat the movies had told me.
Yeah, and it was just a seeingeye, but the idea of him being
able to converse with pippinthrough it was horrifying.
Kritter (08:57):
You know the stuff of nightmares, so really, really
interesting stuff, yeah, it wasso things that stood out to me
whenever he could see through it, obviously, because it's also
like a seeing eye glass,whatever.
Um, there were nine weekendcreatures.
So I'm like, okay, we've gotthe uh, we've got the ring race
(09:17):
nine, the nine men and theirfell beasts.
Um, whenever he's in, ininteracting with saran, saran
initially asked why he haddelayed reporting for so long.
Um, implying that he thoughtthat pippin was saruman at first
and also that saruman had beenavoiding him before eisengard
(09:38):
was even taken, I assume.
So that was like an interesting.
You mentioned figuring out theinterplay between mordor and
eisengard.
That was part of the plot.
You know they were.
They were not exactly seeingeye to eye at that moment.
We did kind of know that, butjust that it was confirmed
straight from the horse's mouthwas interesting.
And then, once sauron found outthat it was a hobbit like
(09:59):
whenever he was like who are youor what are you or whatever,
and Pippin responds a hobbit, hegets all like hyped and extra
cruel.
I thought that was kind ofreally chilling.
Basically, just like you know,don't go anywhere, I'm coming
for you, just like that's kindof terrible to have that kind of
you know person or beingfocused very, very exclusively
(10:22):
on you.
Not wouldn't have been mychoice to be in Pippa's shoes.
Not at all Gross.
So after that, after thathorrible encounter, gandalf
takes the Palantir back andoffers it to Aragorn, who notes
that it was probably his byright anyway, as it likely
belonged to hisgreat-great-great, etc.
(10:44):
Grandpappy ellendeal.
Any final thoughts about thisnew, this one palantir?
Jessica (10:53):
um, it's crazy to me that these are around and that
that aragorn would be a aninheritor of this.
Yeah, that it would go tosomeone who is not a wizard, but
okay.
The other thing about thisexchange was the way that
Aragorn and Gandalf had a littleback and forth here, just a
(11:16):
blip, where Gandalf essentiallytells them you know, be wary,
don't be hasty.
Whatever you do, don't use ityet.
And Aragorn basically says whenhave you ever known me to be
hasty or unwary?
And then this is just such agreat line.
Gandalf's reply is never yet.
Do not then stumble at the endof the road.
(11:39):
And I was like so I liked itbecause Aragorn kind of pushed
back like I'm a pretty sensibledude.
Yeah, have some faith.
Yeah, but gandalf, still, youknow, stay the course, brother,
don't don't trip now, that wouldsuck right.
Kritter (11:57):
Well, gandalf doesn't even trust himself to look into
it now, and so it's like youknow he's.
If he's doubting himself, hehas every right to doubt
literally anybody, because he'sGandalf the White man.
Yeah, that was an interestingexchange for sure.
I was just.
I get more and more.
I don't know why I keep gettingsurprised by Aragorn, Because
when he was Strider he felt alittle more reserved.
(12:19):
I guess he felt a little more Idon't want to say like
self-conscious, but just not assure of himself.
Jessica (12:29):
He was fine, but nothing like crazy.
And then he just has come intohis own as aragon, son of a
marathon, like he was verycasual, like no.
Kritter (12:33):
And now he's like, oh yeah, that's mine anyways.
And I'm like, oh okay, sir,like good for you, I guess.
Uh, yeah, which I don't hate.
I like somebody who knows whatthey're owed, I guess what
they're worth.
So there was a.
There was another line in hereit was actually not aragorn or
gandalf, but theoden saidsomething that I had to
(12:53):
literally like read like seventimes to figure out what he was
saying.
He says oft evil will shallevil mar, and uh, and I was
reading will as a verb, which iswhy I was having a problem.
But um, yeah, it's uh, it'sjust a testament to how
(13:13):
sometimes the way that Tolkienwrites is a little dense.
Jessica (13:20):
It was just like I read that sentence four times.
Kritter (13:23):
Yeah, it's like okay, what do we what?
The heck Like what?
Jessica (13:25):
am I missing?
Yeah, what?
Kritter (13:27):
what did I?
How am I misreading this?
It's not, they're not big words.
So yeah, just if.
If you ever struggle or need toreread any passages or
sentences, don't, don't feel bad.
Jessica (13:41):
You can sit with us.
It's cool.
Kritter (13:43):
Yeah, you can absolutely sit with us.
It's cool.
Yeah, you can absolutely seewhat was that.
One was a.
The one was a tongue twister, alittle brain burner.
Um, all right.
So a flying creatureunexpectedly passes over the
moon and even though where theywere kind of like camped for the
night, gandalf just basicallyorders them all to ride on like
we've got to get out of here.
The Nazgul have crossed theriver.
(14:04):
Pippin is with Gandalf andobserves that he's riding
bareback.
They're riding ahead onShadowfax.
Gandalf remarks that Shadowfaxwon't have a hardness and you
don't ride him.
He decides whether or not tocarry you and if he does, then
he'll keep you on his backunless you decide to literally
jump off.
So what do you think?
(14:25):
Horse girl, best horse ever oh,I love it.
Jessica (14:28):
Yeah, no, I.
I read it and I wrote dangstraight yeah, of course you
don't ride.
I don't fax the lord of thehorses, come on now yeah, yeah,
yeah it's.
Kritter (14:38):
Oh, my gosh, this reminds me of uh okay, have you
seen tropic?
Jessica (14:42):
thunder.
Uh, when it first came out, agajillion years ago.
Kritter (14:47):
First of all, I absolutely adore that movie.
Some of it I get is dumb humor,but some of it is so brilliant
I can't get enough.
It makes me LOL every time.
But it reminds me of RobertDowney Jr's character when he
takes himself very seriously asan actor and he's like I don't
read the script.
The script reads me.
Takes himself very seriously asan actor and he's like I don't
read the script.
(15:07):
Script reads me, like you know,right, shadow facts, it's not
shadow facts rides you.
Shadow facts decide, decideswhether to bear you and and if
he does, then you don't have toworry about staying on his back.
He'll keep you there.
Just it was.
It was fun and intense.
Sounds like a pretty greathorse.
Jessica (15:25):
Having ridden bareback at speed for a long distance.
The reality probably doesn'thold up, unless you have the
lord of horses as your mount.
What?
Kritter (15:37):
was the occasion for that.
Jessica (15:40):
I was a horse girl so I just decided to hop up.
I was also 15 and bulletproof,I don't know about you, but when
I was a horse girl, so you know, give it a try Just decided to
hop up.
I was also 15 and bulletproof,I don't know about you, but when
I was 15, I was indestructible.
So you know, nothing would holdme back from just taking my
horse out on the lead line andjust hopping up bareback and
running down a trail.
Kritter (16:01):
Totally.
How do you even get up on ahorse without a saddle?
Jessica (16:05):
I'm 15 and you're this big around you just grab the
mane.
Hop up like.
Kritter (16:10):
Legolas, oh, come on, you have to at least pull
yourself up somehow it doesdepend on how tall the horse is.
Okay, that's fair.
My family, actually for a longtime, my uncle and my grandpa
and my dad, they, uh, they wouldgo hunting in colorado like
once a year out hunting, if theydrew the tags and uh, so they
had mules, not horses but, theywere shorter, stockier, um more
(16:36):
stubborn, for sure, but I Ihaven't ridden many horses in my
life yeah, I'm not saying thatthat's recommended behavior for
anybody.
Jessica (16:47):
I want to be 100% clear PSA, don't let your children do
that.
It's a bad idea.
Kritter (16:53):
Okay, I was unsupervised.
Jessica (16:55):
I was unsupervised.
Okay, well, that sounds like avery 15-year-old thing to do, so
I forgive you and I live totell the tale, but Shadowfax
sounds like a dream to get usback on the rails.
Kritter (17:07):
Yeah, like love that for everyone that you don't have
to worry about falling off.
That could be really great forme, who's only read a few horses
in my life.
Okay, so now that we've talkedabout the horse, we get a little
bit more about the Palantiri,which is the plural of the
Palantir.
About the Palantiri, which isthe plural of the Palantir,
(17:30):
there were seven, possiblycrafted by Feanor, who is a
Noldor or a high elf of old, andmen communicated with one
another through them directly,except in the case of the one
that was at Osgiliath before itsruin, which could basically
look in on.
Any of them is what Iunderstood.
Gandalf guessed that Sauron gota hold of the one that was in
(17:51):
Minas Ithil, which is the towerhe took, and turned into Minas
Morgul.
So that's a lot of new words,some of them new.
Did anything pique yourinterest from the palantir's
backstory?
Jessica (18:06):
uh.
So again there was one palantirto rule them all.
It kind of felt like which, youknow, and I I did pay attention
to the fact that there was onein osgiliath and that you know
it said uh, not minister.
At the other menace that wasessentially taken over, you know
, by the bad guys.
(18:26):
Eethu.
Thank you.
Kritter (18:28):
Yes, You're welcome.
It's a lot of names.
The only reason I know it isbecause I wrote it down.
Jessica (18:33):
It's like okay, yeah, so I thought that that was
interesting.
I just to draw another analogy,you know, kind of like the
Wheel of Time, age of Legendstypes artifact, where this is
how this was used in a moreglorified time period in a past
(18:53):
age.
This is how this technology wasused, or this arcane, how these
arcane items were used, and nowthey're nowhere to be found.
Kritter (19:07):
Or they're not being used for the.
They're not being used asintended right, the best
purposes, of course.
Like when I found out there waslike one palantir to rule them
all, my first instinct wasthat's the one sauron has.
And then gandalf decided, or atleast speculated, that no, in
fact that's the one that meanestmorgel and I was.
I understand that makes sense.
But the paranoid me still iswondering where is the master
(19:30):
palantir?
Where is that thing hiding?
Um, not that I don't even, Ican't even remember if I find
out ever, but uh, I am curious.
Did.
Are you curious at all?
Jessica (19:41):
where the big one is oh oh absolutely Okay, Not just me
, then.
I'm just like I'd never trustanyone.
But I'm like, are they sittingin abandoned towers, unused, you
know what I mean?
Are they sitting in an atticsomewhere Under?
Kritter (19:54):
rubble because Osgiliath fell.
Yeah, there's a lot ofopportunity.
It could just be gone, gone,which is a thing that happens.
Destroyed Right.
That happens, destroyed Right.
So who knows?
Who knows Anyway.
So Gandalf lets Pippin knowthat they are actually headed to
Minas Tirith.
They're not going back toHelm's Deep or anything like
that.
And Pippin eventually begins tofall asleep with the strange
(20:15):
feeling that him and Gandalf arestill a stone, seated upon the
statue of a running horse, whilethe world rolled away beneath
his feet with a great noise ofwind.
That was the end of book.
Three Final thoughts.
Jessica (20:33):
I loved that Pippin took advantage of his solo time
with Gandalf and was kind ofgrilling him, yeah, and even
called him out a little bit,right.
So he mentions to Gandalf thathe wants to get some answers and
Gandalf feels chastised abouthow.
You know, it is my job to takecare of you and and you are, you
(20:56):
know, I forgot how he worded it, but making me rethink how you
define the word, meaning how,how I take care of others.
And then so Pippin continues toquestion him and he says what
more do you want to know?
And Pippin's like the name ofall the stars, of all the living
things, the whole history ofmetal, earth, of course, what
(21:18):
less?
And I'm just like I love inthat moment, I just loved him so
much for just being curious.
Kritter (21:27):
Curious little hobbitses.
Yes, curious little hobbitses.
Jessica (21:30):
Yes, there was some poetry that was shared during
Gandalf and Pippin's ride thathad a hyperlink, so it was
footnoted, but it was notbehaving appropriately.
It felt like it was taking meto another part of the book so I
didn't wind up reading it, butthe lore that he was sharing in
there seemed significantPalantir related.
Kritter (21:56):
No, I feel like this was.
Jessica (21:57):
No, I feel like this was.
Honestly, I thought it hadsomething to do with the
migration of the elves, like howthe elves moved around.
Hold on, I can find it.
Kritter (22:19):
If we ever get through an episode where I don't have to
look for something, it will bewell, but then what's the point
of taking notes or whatever likethis?
Jessica (22:24):
uh, makes sense, here we go tall ships and tall kings
three times three.
What brought they from thefoundered land over the flowing
sea?
Seven stars and seven stonesand one white tree.
So the the one white tree mademe think of, uh, what I believe
might be the elvish origin storyfor at least middle earth, and
(22:49):
I know that, like there's ahistory I don't know at all
because I'm not have not readthe silmarillion, but I've
definitely had enough contextclues from the reading that we
have done that it seems like theelves originated elsewhere,
came here and then, you know, asa species, are choosing to
leave again.
So that's what that made methink of.
(23:12):
Okay, yeah, and that could stayrhetorical, but that's, um, you
know, that definitely caught myeye, uh, and the one white tree
specifically stood out.
Kritter (23:23):
Yeah, that also kind of reminds me of rings of power.
Jessica (23:27):
There's a lot of trees and rings of power so when it
mentioned feanor and the noldorI I was like is feanor somebody
that we met in rings of power?
I don't know if we met him, butI believe he might have been
referenced I think that's rightI think that's right.
Yeah, and I fully intend tojump right back in when those
come up yeah, that one.
(23:49):
We just got the teaser trailerfor that okay, I haven't seen
because I've been on unpackingbooks, but I'll be watching that
very soon, that's fair, uh, allright, anything else for book
three done.
Kritter (24:01):
That's it for book three.
Okay, big transition, drum roll.
Oh my gosh time.
We're moving on to book four,chapter one, the taming of
smiegel.
So you saw the movies.
We know what's about to happenhere, but three days have passed
(24:21):
since frodo and sam departedfrom the fellowship, so we are
rewinding, pressing reset oneverything we read from the
fellowship members the otherfellowship members at least.
Are you feeling like whiplashwhere?
Where are you at here with this?
Jump back in time.
Jessica (24:37):
Uh, I'm glad that we are just jumping kind of almost
at least all the way back,instead of trying to do it like
them in a hot spot and trying tosomehow flash back and cover
the interim time.
So I I would rather go back tothe beginning.
I'm with Gimli right, like Ilike a chronological story.
It really works for me.
Yeah, I get it.
(24:58):
So I was glad that we, you know, did the full rewind, because
that's honestly just easier forme.
Kritter (25:05):
That's fair.
So the chapter starts out veryhobbity.
Sam is tiring of lembas cravingbread and beer, still carrying
around pots and pans withnothing to put in them.
Meanwhile, frodo is despondentover time lost and opportunities
lost.
Now this to me feels like a bigtone shift from what we were
(25:26):
just reading like.
Would you agree?
Does it feel different?
Jessica (25:30):
but we think so this was this is almost two weeks
back.
Kritter (25:37):
That sounds right.
Jessica (25:38):
Yeah, I think that sounds right Somewhere between a
week and two weeks back.
And if you think back to wherewe were at, you know Frodo just
had that altercation withBoromir, yeah, and he and Sam
have been fleeing not verysuccessfully in these really
(26:00):
jagged hills.
So I think despondency isdefinitely a tone shift but
seems justified given where wepick up with them.
Kritter (26:10):
Yeah, where he was back , God, two weeks.
I'd have to actually count it,but it feels like so much has
happened.
Jessica (26:17):
It was nine days that the Hobbits were separated right
.
It was nine days that Merry andPippin were separated from
Aragorn, legolas and Gimli, wow,and then we had more time pass.
Yeah, so if for these we have,three days has passed since the
(26:38):
Boromir altercation, so thestart of this book.
Kritter (26:42):
Yeah.
Jessica (26:43):
So yeah, you could say, probably nine days roughly have
passed.
Kritter (26:50):
Wow, helm's Deep Battle of Isengardgard, all of them
nine days, jesus who?
Whoever says the tolkien isslow, they're wrong.
Jessica (27:03):
yeah, it's, it's very yeah no I feel like we're doing
stuff every episode yeah, it's,it's.
Kritter (27:09):
It's a lot of making moves, for sure, um, okay, so
Frodo finds a place he thinks istheir best chance to climb down
, cause they are, they have beenstuck unable to really advanced
.
Um, and Sam agrees but insiststhat he gets to climb down first
.
Obviously, and this kind ofbecomes a theme.
This chapter, do you have any?
Jessica (27:34):
thoughts about Frodo and Sam's multiple climbing
mishaps.
I just love.
I am there for the loyalty bid,so Samwise has many fine
features.
Loyalty is definitely a hugedraw for me.
There's my favorite quote fromthis chapter, though, is about
that, you know, regarding Sampreparing to climb down first to
(27:57):
you know.
Check it out for Frodo.
It is doubtful if he ever didanything braver in cold blood or
more unwise, and I just I lovethat right.
I know that it's notnecessarily a way to live your
life, but that, to me,encapsulates their entire
relationship.
(28:17):
Sam will do whatever it takes.
Kritter (28:20):
Yeah, I thought it was really sweet.
I just you know.
You know I love Sam.
But one thing that made mereally laugh was when he
remembered that he had rope,like they were like trying to
free climb down this cliff.
Jessica (28:35):
So I'd written a note of like that dang rope.
We knew it was a thing back inthe day when it got mentioned.
And here we are and he evenmakes a comment about he carried
it for hundreds of miles and Ijust never have I ever related
more.
You know, just being like dangit.
You know I put this Tide pen inmy purse for a reason.
(28:55):
I finally dumped the salsa onmyself and I forgot.
I got all the way home before Iremembered I had the Tide pen.
You know like I get it.
Perfect analogy I get it.
Kritter (29:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So he's like he was so fixatedon the fact that he didn't have
rope.
Then he gets the rope, then heforgets about the rope.
It just felt perfect.
Jessica (29:18):
It was so relatable and then it turns out the rope is
somewhat magical, so it shedssome kind of soft light that
helps um in a really importantway.
And then somehow Sam ismagically able to ask nicely,
and the rope unties itself.
Come on, that's awesome.
Kritter (29:40):
That is awesome.
So I will point out before wemove on is that I learned
something new with this one.
So Sam says that the rope wasabout 30 L's and I had to look
up L.
So, fun fact, an L is about1.25 yards, so the rope was
(30:01):
about 112 feet long, which is along rope.
Also, just for everyone'sfathom, is a word that I had
heard before, but I'd never likeactually looked it up.
Two yards is a fathom.
Um, so that is a fact that weknow now.
Um, and so we mentioned sam andfrodo.
(30:23):
They finally make it down withsome help from this rope, and
sam laments the fact that theyhave to leave it behind.
Though you mentioned, thatdidn't end up how it ended up.
His exclamations though noodlesand ninny hammers I'm
immediately adding that one tomy repertoire.
But you said the ropeultimately made its way down to
(30:43):
Sam, just because he askednicely or whatever.
Do you think this is magic?
Just magic with a capital M?
Elvish magic.
What do we think?
Jessica (30:53):
I think it's lowercase magic.
So we talked a little bit abouthow hobbits aren't an
inherently magical species, butthey had some traits that do
seem to lend them abilities thatcan have an almost magic-like
quality, and I feel like therope is an extension of elvish
lowercase magic.
You know what I mean that thework that they do is just imbued
(31:15):
with this natural essence thatyou know gives advantage on the
decks rolls.
I don't know, I don't know howelse to explain it, but you know
, you're able to shake the ropeand it just comes undone.
And I love the fact that he,you know, was like you can.
You can bad mouth a lot ofthings about me, but don't be
(31:38):
talking smack about how I tieknots.
Yeah, okay.
Kritter (31:43):
It runs in my family.
Okay, I'm good at tying knots.
Jessica (31:45):
I've been tying knots, since I was knee high to a
grasshopper is the total vibethat I got from that.
And the ninny hammer.
He was calling himself namesand so I had to remember that
Gaffer was his father.
And so he's calling himself thenames that his father would
(32:05):
have called him, which is againvery relatable right.
Like a lot, of our innermonologues are dominated by
people that we love.
True, and so yeah, I was likeoh, Ninny Hammer, something your
dad used to call you Got it.
Kritter (32:23):
Noodles, such a good curse yeah.
Jessica (32:26):
I love it, but whatever you do, no, not slander.
Yeah, that's where we draw theline.
Yeah, he would be good draw theline.
Kritter (32:32):
Yeah, he would be good at tying knots even outside the
Shire.
Jessica (32:35):
He would be considered an apt knot tier.
Kritter (32:39):
So the two finally crash for the night once they've
made it down and they notice adark figure climbing down the
cliff after them like a nastycrawling spider on a wall.
Ugh, good description.
Didn't love how it made me feel.
Enter Gollum Any thoughts aboutFrodo and Sam's Gollum
snatching efforts?
Jessica (33:02):
So I was not happy that Sam's internal dialogue about
Gollum was so kind of hateful,just very.
I'm not saying it's notdeserved, but it starts out
really super negative and Idon't like that.
I do also think it's verycreepy that Gollum can climb
(33:27):
down head first, that's supercreepy.
I do like the fact that Frodogot pretty assertive here.
So once they figured out thething with the rope, frodo's
like I don't want to be caughtout here.
You know, frodo's really kindof taking charge and not just
(33:49):
being a passive bystander.
Yeah, um, so letting sam knowto go ahead and tie that to the
stump and and we'll do this andwe'll do that.
So that was another commentfrom this general vicinity.
And then, um, yeah, so, likesam even said, he can try his
nasty flappy feet on thoseledges.
Kritter (34:11):
Yeah, like it gets really spiteful when it comes to
gollum like I don't know how Ifeel about that buddy yeah.
So speaking of this kind ofinteraction, um, it brings up an
interesting legal andphilosophical issue.
So frodo decides that theycan't kill gollum because he
hadn't done them any harm.
Sam points out that Gollumdefinitely intended to harm them
(34:35):
, and Frodo responded that whatGollum meant to do was entirely
a different matter.
So there's this topic of debatepreemptive punishment.
To what extent can we punish aperson or deprive them of
liberty for something theyhaven't even done yet?
There's also, of course, aconcept of an attempted crime,
which is punishable, but toconvict someone of an attempt
(34:57):
they have to have taken like astep toward completion of the
crime.
That's sort of the requirement,I think.
Sam, in less words, is arguingthat Gollum following them
essentially was his step towardcompletion of whatever evil deed
probably murder that heintended, and Frodo seems to
think not at least that hewasn't worthy of punishment just
(35:17):
yet.
What do you think?
Would any punishment be toopremature, or was Gollum
attempting a crime here?
Jessica (35:26):
I would side with Frodo in this, even though it's a
hard topic.
And again, I feel like youngerme had a different take than
older me.
I feel like younger me whenpresented with the topic of
preemptive punishment in movieslike Minority Report or any
(35:47):
other media.
You know, I find it the ideafascinating.
But as I've gotten older, intentdoes matter, but also so does
following through Um, and weknow that I stand Gollum in a
lot of ways, so I'm sure thatthat bias doesn't help Um but if
(36:09):
we were all damned before wetook the action, redemption
would never be possible foranyone, and I live in a world
where I think that it'simportant to believe in our
ability to redeem ourselves andto be better.
Yeah, and if we can't be better, then what are we even trying
to do?
Fair, fair, fair fair so I wantto believe in a world of
(36:32):
redemption, and so I'm gonnaside with frodo and say that
it's not enough that he'sfollowing um, that there is
still something there to saveokay, that's fair.
Kritter (36:43):
I I tend to agree.
I like the um.
You know we got flashbacks inthis chapter of the conversation
with gandalf where who are youto decide who gets to live or
die?
You know there are people thatlive that deserve death and
people that die that deservelife.
All of that and I love thesentiment um.
I do think I don't.
I don't know that I would havegone as far as Frodo went in the
(37:06):
trust department like right,you know, not having him tied up
, being okay with that, uh itthat there were some.
I think I would basically findmyself in the middle between sam
and frodo, in the sense that Iwouldn't trust gollum and I
would take steps to ensure thathe couldn't betray me, but I
(37:30):
also wouldn't tie him up andleave him to die or murder him
in cold blood, basically BecauseI tend to agree Him following
them could also, even though heprobably would have killed them.
You know, that's definitelyconceivable.
He was following them first andforemost because they had the
precious right he could sense it, he's driven to it.
(37:52):
He's driven to it.
He's driven to it and so it'snot entirely his fault.
So I'm like leaning towards youhere a little bit.
Jessica (38:00):
I know you're like I've got that sympathy for him and I
feel like elijah wood played it, still very skeptical, you know
.
Uh, it's.
So going back into this,knowing that we're with gollum
right away, absolutely put likeI cannot wait to watch these.
Oh the way, there is a showingof the Fellowship in my area and
I'm going to go watch it.
Yes, I'm so glad.
Sidebar everybody.
(38:21):
Sorry, but I'm going to gowatch it on the big screen for
the first time ever.
Kritter (38:25):
That is so exciting.
I'm going to go see the Returnof the King because Mr Critter
didn't want to go see three lordof the rings movies three days
straight, which I guess I canunderstand so I only saw
fellowship in my area.
Jessica (38:37):
I'll have to go back and look.
As we know, june is a littlebit of a busy month, so we'll
see yeah, it is, it is well itis.
Kritter (38:44):
It's like fellowship is on june 8th or like it's
literally like one of them isjune 8th, one of them is june
9th, one of them is June 10th orsomething along those lines,
and so it's uh, it's tricky,it's a.
It's a Saturday, sunday, monday, so I'm seeing return on Monday
because that's the only day.
Jessica (39:02):
Well, that's funny because it's in my area on June
8th as well.
But I only looked up.
The fellowship is in my area onJune 8th.
So now I'm going to wind upgoing back and looking.
I don't know.
Kritter (39:14):
Look at you, Knife, I'm going to, but I do think you
know I wouldn't if I were you,just because, like you're
putting off watching them beforeyou've read them, I would.
You know, two Towers is fairgame because we'll be done
reading them by then.
Yeah, close enough at least, butI would I don't know I would
wait on return, yep, even thoughit's my favorite, just because,
(39:37):
yeah, but it's obviously up toyou.
I mean, getting to see them intheaters again is just such an
opportunity that it's hard topass up fellowship is such a
good movie that I'll be happy,even if I just make it to that
one.
Jessica (39:51):
It's a perfect movie it movie.
Kritter (39:53):
It's not my favorite of the three because it doesn't
make me cry as much.
I love to feel the emotion.
But Fellowship, I think, is themost just bookended, perfect
story.
I think it's excellent.
Just a beautiful, beautifulmovie.
I think you've got a reallygood choice there and I believe
fellowship is actually mrcritter's favorite as well.
(40:15):
But we went with return becauseit was up to me, because he was
the one who limited which one,how many we could go to.
Jessica (40:22):
I will say that mr jessica had a similar sentiment,
like you're only gonna get oneand it's not gonna be the two
towers.
It's not going to be the twotowers, it's like, oh, okay.
Kritter (40:33):
Some people's favorite is the two towers.
That's so interesting Not me,but some people.
Some people it's a good one,they're all good.
I mean, they're amazing,anyways, yeah, anyways, okay.
So we talked about theconversations between Gollum and
the hobbits.
Jessica (40:48):
They were so interesting to me.
Kritter (40:49):
There's pity hostility, groveling and lots of Gollum
talking to himself.
So how did these go over foryou?
Jessica (40:57):
So I want to go back just for one second to you,
mentioning that flashback fromthe Gandalf conversation,
tempering Frodo's response andcounseling him to feel pity.
You know, even the wise cannotsee all ends.
I love the fact that all ofthat dialogue was in set into
(41:17):
this chapter, like it wasthoroughly called out.
Now, granted, it was only aFrodo flashback, but I love the
fact that he put it right in.
And then the back and forth.
You know Frodo telling Samright up front, don't
underestimate him, he's stillvery dangerous.
Sam getting bit sounds terrible.
Having all of this back andforth really just kind of points
(41:43):
out just how far gone Gollum is.
You know just how desperate heis.
The ingratiation, um,eventually swearing to them, uh,
definitely all.
He's clearly in a verydesperate time.
(42:06):
Um and then the tying of theropes, and the ropes feeling
like it's burning him, and thelembas just revulsing.
You know, it just repels him.
Uh, all of these things arejust show how far from the light
he is.
Kritter (42:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild.
Gollum asks where they're goingand frodo's reply was kind of
chilling for me.
He's like you know, you knowthat, like you've guessed that
I'm just like these two.
They have this, you know, likethey have this weird connection.
They have this really weirdconnection, and so just the fact
that frodo kind of like changeswhen he talks to gollum- that
(42:45):
his tone, his demeanor,everything, and sam's like
witnessing it, and we'rewitnessing it too, and he just
feels like a completelydifferent person.
Jessica (42:53):
But he's also the first one to call him smiegel you
know what I mean like, yeah,that's not sam, that's frodo who
is going to use his real nameand and sam even makes a comment
about the two were in some wayakin and not alien so even sam's
, you know internal monologuecomments on.
You know there's already aparody there of some kind yeah,
(43:17):
it was weird, it was.
Kritter (43:18):
It was a weird thing to see.
Um, so you mentioned they tryto.
He tries to run away wheneverthey fall asleep and then they
catch him again, try to put hima rope.
The rope burns him, which I wasskeptical about.
Like, is he faking, you know,because he's so manipulative.
But then frodo eventually comesto believe that it's really
hurting him.
So he takes it off of him andgets this idea that he should
(43:38):
swear by the precious so thatthey can trust him and the swear
golem ultimately gives is toserve the master of the precious
, which literally broke mylawyer brain because the master
of the precious could be anyonein this case possession is 10
tenths of the law.
Did this bother you at all?
Jessica (44:01):
bother.
Kritter (44:01):
No, but I'm not a lawyer okay, really, god, I
thought it would.
I was like this is sotransparent, how did frodo not
be?
Jessica (44:08):
like me.
It is, it is um.
So I took that.
You know, I feel like.
At first, frodo said are yousure you want to swear on on
this ring, this, this ring thatyou know has this negative power
?
You want to be beholden tohaving your oath sworn on this
(44:29):
ring?
Um?
So I hadn't, really I didn't.
I was more caught up in thatthan okay, the language of I
swear to the master, not to saythat I saw that it was full of
wiggle room holes.
Yeah, it bothered, but it justwasn't the thing that I was
primarily focused on yeah, and Iguess I kind of forgot.
Kritter (44:53):
Well, I didn't forget, but now it's making me think of
how.
You know, the game of riddleswas like such a sacred thing and
I'm trying to remember.
Is there something similar withoaths, where it's like in this
universe, giving an oath is likemore than just I promise you
know what I mean.
I'm like I might be wrong aboutthat.
Maybe I'm just thinking of theriddles.
(45:22):
But the fact that Frodo assumesthat the ring is going to like
actually legitimately bind.
Gollum Made me curious, likewhy?
Why is that the case?
And is it just like one ring torule them all?
You know, that's just the vibeof the ring, or is there
something more?
I just, I, I, I don't knowswearing on the ring, I guess
it's like swearing on the biblefor some people.
But even people who swear on thebible end up like and they lie
(45:44):
yeah, and so I was like I wouldliterally take this with an
absolute grain of salt.
But frodo seems to think, for awhile at least, it's gonna hold
him to it, and I just don'tknow why I had just, and so I
just took it like I took itsight unseen, like sure no
problem, because it's a magicalring.
Jessica (45:59):
So I was like it's a magical ring.
So to me the premise that thishas consequences, you know, for
swearing, forsaking an oath,sworn on this ring, would likely
have consequences because we'veseen how magical the ring is
okay fair enough, so I just tookit that's fair.
Kritter (46:19):
I mean, I should, I should basically thing number
one why does swearing on thisring matter?
Thing number two doesn't matter, because the oath he gave has
so many holes poked in it likethat it even if it was gonna
bind him, it's not really gonnabind him.
Those were my thoughts.
I don't, I didn't like it,basically, and that's the end of
the chapter.
Jessica (46:37):
Any thoughts for the remaining of the chapter.
It commented at the end of thischapter that something about
the oath triggered a tangiblechange in Smeagol's behavior.
And so this is probably.
This probably was representedon the screen in the movies, but
to hear it called out I waslike oh, okay, so we're
(47:02):
attributing it to that.
Kritter (47:03):
He gets real friendly, real fast.
Jessica (47:05):
He does, and I didn't know if it's intentional,
because he's trying toingratiate himself, or if it's
magically induced in some way,but his behavior has changed and
it's noted by the narrator atthe end of this chapter yeah,
yeah, I.
Kritter (47:24):
I constantly just think he's manipulating them, but I
am very I'm not as pro golem asyou are, so that's don't get me
wrong.
Jessica (47:33):
I know, I know he's a nasty, I do okay.
Kritter (47:38):
So book four, chapter two, the passage of the marshes.
The hobbits and smiegel stopfor a break and to avoid the
yellow face that gollum hates,aka the sun, um, and they
realized that, like the rope,gollum can't handle Lembas
either.
It makes the Lembas taste a lotbetter in Sam's eyes, who takes
(48:00):
the first watch.
So throughout this journey youtalked about this before in the
last chapter, but Sam remainsquite suspicious of Gollum, more
so than Frodo by far.
At this point, you've you feelyou're feeling more like frodo
than sam when it comes to gollum, or would you be as suspicious
(48:20):
as sam, basically?
Jessica (48:21):
I would be as suspicious as sam, don't get me
wrong.
I think that the suspicion ismore than merited.
I so for him to sit there andbe eating his lembas and to just
look at him and internally bemuttering he should have just
been choked out already.
Like that's extreme to me.
Yeah, especially for Sam, youknow.
(48:44):
And so, and in this chapter wetalk a little bit about how
everybody seems to be under theinfluence of something, how Sam
is under a spell not under aspell but under a weight and how
.
Frodo is definitely under aweight, and how?
Nobody's asking Gollum, but heseems to be under a weight as
well.
Um, so I think that you knowwhat it could be is the whatever
(49:08):
Paul is over them is having anegative impact on him, but to
just sit there eating your lunchand to look at somebody going
God, I wish somebody would justchoke you out.
Kritter (49:20):
That's not appropriate.
Jessica (49:22):
behavior Like that's not charitable in any way.
No, like the mean thoughts.
No, you know that's a littledark, that's a little twisty
even for me, especially from ourgolden retriever boy right Like
this is not the Samwise fromthe Green Dragon, I do agree
with that.
Kritter (49:42):
I don't like the mean, nasty thoughts.
I do agree with the suspicion.
So I'm somewhere in betweenFrodo and Sam.
Basically, I'm on Frodo's levelwhen it comes to not having
mean, nasty, terrible thoughts.
I'm on Sam's level when itcomes to not having mean, nasty,
terrible thoughts.
I'm on sam's level when itcomes to the suspicion.
Basically, um, okay.
So after a long day's sleep,frodo and sam wake up and sam
(50:02):
tries to take stock of theirfood inventory, asking frodo how
long their task taking the reedmortar was going to take and
what they were going to do aboutfood for the return they then
have a bit of a moment whereFrodo basically just says he
doesn't see them needinganything as he doesn't
anticipate there will be areturn journey.
(50:23):
Any thoughts about this prettytender moment between the two of
them?
Jessica (50:28):
I was just like, oh, we're saying the quiet parts out
loud, Okay, I thought that itwas very tender and vulnerable
for both of them and I love thatit was written out the way that
it was and that it was asvulnerable as it was.
Kritter (50:47):
Yeah, in the sort of description Sam holds Frodo's
hand and bows over it and hedoesn't kiss it.
They say, say, but his tears dolike fall onto his hand.
Um, and I found that to be justyet another classic Frodo and
Sam lesson in healthy maleintimacy.
Basically, like these two arejust they are bros, man, they
(51:08):
are like this and, uh, I kind oflove that about them, they,
they're just really sweettogether.
Yeah, yeah and also again.
Jessica (51:17):
So we pointed he's referred to him as master quite
a bit.
So again I managed to put itaside.
Right, he refers to him asmaster several times in these
first two chapters.
But this is a.
This is a moment between peers.
Yeah, you know and so it justadds layers to it that both of
(51:39):
them each allowed themselves tocross that divide between master
and servant, perceived orotherwise.
I don't feel like Frodo reallyperceives Sam as a servant, but
because Sam perpetuates the termmaster, it's hard to ignore it
on sam's part yeah, agreed, Iwish it was different, but it's
(52:02):
fine.
Kritter (52:03):
Uh, so the party finally reaches the dead marshes
and begins to cross themflickering lights and pale dead
faces in the water surround them, though, according to gollum,
the dead in the water are notphysically there.
There are men and elves andorcs laying there from a battle
long ago, and so we got to heara lot about what it looked and
(52:23):
felt like in the marshes.
Anything stand out to you?
Jessica (52:27):
Candles of corpses is a name, that's a thing.
So for the flickering lights,that's quite a thing, um, and
don't look in while the candlesare lit.
Uh-huh, those.
Those are some very specificelements that I was like, wow,
that really kind of elevates it.
So I remember I remember themarshes as kind of almost a
(52:52):
fever dream approach and this isjust a little bit more
horrifying.
So another way that the bookkind of amped up the experience,
so that was interesting to read.
Kritter (53:07):
Yeah, we got a lot of landscape description in this
one.
I know it was a lot, I'm notcomplaining, but I, I, I I'm so
much better at picking outliterary umami in the chapters
where the landscape is beautiful.
Right, we get these sweepinggrassy hills, what, like this?
(53:30):
Beautiful sunsets.
We get all this stuff and I'mlike, oh my god, this beautiful,
I love reading about this.
And then we get to the deadmarshes and we're getting a lot
of what it looks and feels likeand I'm just like I don't.
Jessica (53:42):
And it turns out the dead marshes aren't the deadest
thing, cause as they move beyondthe edges of the marshes, it's
worse.
The land is even worse, Um,even worse.
You know, at least in themarshes and I'm paraphrasing you
have the corpulence of stuffthat grows where things rot.
You don't even have that.
Kritter (54:03):
Yeah, it was a rough one.
It's harder for me, I think, tofocus on language when, like of
like descriptive language, whennot describing something pretty
that feels so shallow, but likethat's just kind of how I
experienced it personally.
Jessica (54:19):
It was all grays and Browns and gross and and fumes
and reeking and squishes.
Kritter (54:27):
It was all really bad.
Not a pleasant thing to read,for sure.
Jessica (54:33):
I think this all of that, all of that also kind of
glazed over.
The most interesting part ofthis chapter for me was sam
witnessing a golem smeagolconversation yeah, yeah, so
let's talk about that.
Kritter (54:47):
Uh, let's see what do I have here.
So sam, what yeah, uh, he talksabout?
He's talking to himself aboutwhat to do, about Frodo and the
Precious.
The Gollum side of theconversation points out that if
they just take the ring, theywould be the master and wouldn't
have to worry about obeyingFrodo, which I totally saw
coming.
And he carries on for a bitmaking plans, debating himself,
(55:09):
like talking about how she mighthelp them later, and then Sam
pretends to wake up becausethings are kind of getting a
little like they're ramping up.
He's kind of like workinghimself up to something.
How do you feel about how allthat went down?
Jessica (55:23):
I think that it was interesting because I, if I
remember correctly, there wasonly one scene in the movies
where somebody said what did yousay?
And he goes not talking to you,and that's as close as it's
come to anybody other than theaudience, the movie watchers,
experiencing a Gollum-Smingleconversation.
So having Sam see that, I think, is brilliant and interesting,
(55:48):
and I can't wait to see how thatplays out over the remainder of
their travels.
The other thing that reallyreally stood out to me about
Smeagol's argument with himselfis that there's hints of real
ambition in there.
So it's talking about beingLord Smeagol or Gollum the Great
(56:10):
, and it took me out of the bookfor a second.
I stopped and went whoa.
So coveting the ring endlesslydoesn't sure no problem.
Like that's the landscape thatI'm used to.
The idea of blind ambitionappealing to Smeagol in any way
(56:34):
threw me way off.
I could see that happening to acharacter who hadn't been
affected by the ring as long Iguess I don't know, but it was
just weird to me.
I'm like he's lived in a cave.
He eats raw, wriggly fishes.
The idea of him wanting to be alord or or in mastery of some
way was just so strange to methat was.
(56:57):
That was probably the biggestthing for that whole section was
I?
Kritter (57:01):
I did not see that coming I guess I just chalked it
up to like that's the influenceof the ring right, because the
dark lord is all about that,like becoming the ruler of all.
But then why was?
Why was he down in the cavesfor that long?
You know, he didn't haveambition while he was down there
, or maybe he did and he wasjust trying to keep the ring for
himself, who knows.
But that was a different sideof him for sure.
Jessica (57:24):
Yeah, covening the precious.
I have no problem believingthat.
I just, lord Smeagol and Gollumthe Great really kind of threw
me for a loop a little bit.
So we'll see if there'sanything else like that.
Kritter (57:39):
I just was not expecting it.
So there was another differentside of Smeagol and maybe I'm
just reading too much into it.
But at one point Sam iscomplaining about the smell of
everything.
He's like everything smells,like you smell Smeagol, whatever
, because Smeag was likesniffing the air, I guess was
the context.
And uh, and smiegel repliesthat sam stinks too, essentially
(57:59):
saying poor smiegel smells it,but good, smiegel bears it.
And to me that was like witty,almost, like he was, like he
wasn't just like saying, he waslike jabbing him in like kind of
a witty way, which was notexpected from him either.
Jessica (58:16):
But he's obviously clever to a certain extent.
Because the ring chose him,he's been able to keep it.
Yeah, you know.
So he's clearly not a stupidcharacter by any means.
Kritter (58:30):
Definitely not, Definitely not.
And he keeps showing that nowthat we get to talk to him even
more.
So we got Sam, we got Smeagol.
Let's talk about Frodo.
At one point a ringwraithpasses not far over them and
then we get a bit of Frodo'sperspective.
Frodo can feel an eye on him, ahorrible growing sense of a
(58:54):
hostile will that strove withgreat power to pin you under its
deadly gaze, naked andimmovable.
That sounds pretty terrible.
Jessica (59:10):
Were you glad to get the status check from Frodo,
just at least to the weight thathe's carrying?
And the mention of I with acapital E starts in chapter one,
like right off it's capitalizedUm, so, and then it's kind of
elucidated here is it'sclarified that, yes, no, this is
(59:30):
not just um, just the Paul oftraveling through scary
territory.
He is feeling it like aphysical weight and it is coming
from the ring.
It's referenced a couple oftimes in the reading and then by
the time we get to the end ofchapter two, tolkien's just
telling us point blank like thisis having a physical effect on
him, like additional gravity onhim, like additional gravity, um
(59:58):
.
And that's validating because,as it was mentioned through
chapter one and chapter two, Iwas like is this because of the
ring?
And thanks for the payoff yep,sure is, uh.
Kritter (01:00:06):
So the three stumbled on through the weary end of the
night and until the coming ofanother day of fear, they walked
in silence with bowed heads,seeing nothing and hearing
nothing but the wind hissing intheir ears.
That's the end of the chapter.
Any final thoughts or notes?
Jessica (01:00:22):
before we pick an MVP, I wish that we had started a
Nazgul sighting counter.
Kritter (01:00:35):
So we had a couple of sightings in this read, we did.
Jessica (01:00:39):
And I was like how many times have we seen something
cross the moon?
I wish we had counted.
Kritter (01:00:45):
Yeah, I guess in this read alone it was the like the
thing that inspired Gandalf toflee.
Yeah, three and then one.
Whatever Frodo was likedangling from the the cliff or
down at the bottom of the cliffor something like that.
Like lightning strikes,whatever something crazy happens
.
And then a third time justwhile they're.
Jessica (01:01:03):
And that leaves Gollum on the ground in the fetal
position because he's overdone.
He's like three times can't bean accident, that's right,
that's right.
Kritter (01:01:12):
Wait, so then that would be four from this read,
because it was three with them.
Yeah, three, just for them andthen one for gandalf and pippin
and that crew.
Uh, lots of nazgul sightingsthis time, yeah so anytime a
shape flies over the moon well,for a while there was like is it
an eagle?
Because we we kept gettingeagles there for a bit, um, and
(01:01:34):
now it just feels like it's justNazgul, like we're just getting
the ring race this time.
Yeah, basically.
Jessica (01:01:40):
Okay, so that's it.
Nazgul counter Future self.
Kritter (01:01:44):
Okay, from now on, all right.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (01:02:01):
This episode was hard because I was so excited to have
our boys back, but I'm going togive it up for Gandalf, okay,
and all the lore and savingPippin's silly behind, okay.
You know, having OP Gandalf thewhite back is pretty awesome
(01:02:23):
and I'm not convinced thatPippin would have been okay If
it wasn't for Gandalf beingthere and being able to reason
out what happened with him.
How exposed are they by theinteraction that pimp had had I?
I just I'm like I need to giveit up for gandalf yeah, it was
impressive.
Kritter (01:02:41):
I mean, even at one point pippin was like passed out
or whatever and he like toucheshim on the head or something
and revives him.
So you've got to love a littlehealing spell, yeah, or whatever
.
That was a little jolt ofadrenaline to get him to come
back.
Uh, so that's a respectablechoice.
But let me just say that, foris it the first time this book
(01:03:03):
I'm picking?
Jessica (01:03:04):
something different from you like we have been.
Kritter (01:03:06):
We have been side by side with this, but I think I'm
gonna deviate here.
Okay, I think, for the maybefirst time at all period
throughout this entire podcast,I'm gonna pick frodo as my mvp,
because he kept such a levelhead throughout such terrible
(01:03:32):
circumstances, with the weightof the ring weighing him down.
Um, even though sam wanted toclimb down first, at one point,
frodo took charge because heknew that sam wasn't going to be
able to do it like.
He got, you know, injured, andsam helped him and stuff like
that.
So like props to sam, for sure,but sam also had the like,
(01:03:53):
extreme suspicion and thenegative thoughts.
Frodo, though, had the idea tohave Gollum swear on the ring.
He, he, his choices, got themthrough the dead marshes and
everything, because withoutGollum, no way they would have
made it.
So, just overall, I think Ijust got to give some mad props
(01:04:13):
and respect to Frodo and andjust the realism, right, granted
, he's very despondent, probablybecause of the effect of the
ring and the eye looking alwaysfor him, but just like knowing
that what he's doing probablydoesn't have a path back.
Like he's, he's literally goingto his doom.
I guess that's an interestingway to put it.
(01:04:36):
He's literally approaching doomand he's doing it willingly,
with his eyes wide open.
It's just that.
Is that's a hero right there,even if he's he comes in a small
package.
So, yeah, that's my choice.
Solid, yeah, I feel pretty goodabout it.
Okay, well, let us know in thecomments or on Discord, if
(01:04:58):
you're on my Discord, who youthink the MVP this session is.
You've got Gandalf, you've gotFrodo, you've got Shadowfax.
I actually considered it.
So there's several viableoptions.
If you're more on Team Sam,when it comes to the mean
(01:05:19):
thoughts about Gollum, it couldbe Sam.
He had a rope that also helpedthem out.
It could be Gollum.
If you've got reallyinteresting tastes, whoever it
is, just let us know.
I'm curious.
And also, if more people pickFrodo than pick Gandalf, then I
(01:05:52):
will feel very, very justifiedin my answer.
Not because I'm competitive,it's yes, it's because I'm
competitive, but don't feelcompelled to pick Frodo.
Pick who you think is the realMVP.
We're very curious to hear yourchoice.
Yes, yes, okay.
So read for next week, book four, chapters three through five,
and thank you so much for tuningin to episode five of season
three of.
But are there dragons broughtto you by your host, jessica
sadai, and me, critter xd.
Don't forget to follow us atbut are there dragons on youtube
, instagram and tiktok and butdragons pod?
Just one on X.
(01:06:14):
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
ShelfIndulgence.
That's it for today.
We're workshopping newcatchphrases for season three,
so let us know on social mediahow you feel about this one.
So I'm going to give you alittle backstory on this one.
Jessica found it.
I think it's great, but shesuggested that I should give it
a go, because sometimes I liketo do impressions and I do not
(01:06:36):
have a canned Gollum impression.
So I'm going to do my best.
Please don't make fun of me,but if you do make fun of me, do
it in the comments, becausethat helps with the algorithm.
Okay, let's go.
Jessica (01:06:50):
Follow Smeagol.
Kritter (01:06:51):
He can take you through the marshes.
Hello, welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, Kritter, and I'myour host Jess.
Kritter (00:19):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Two
Towers by JRR Tolkien, with meas the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:24):
with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran, and
me as the Lord of the Rings,first timer In this our fifth
episode of season three.
Kritter (00:32):
We're going to discuss book three, chapter 11, and book
four, chapters one and two.
So pretty exciting that we'vemade it into book four.
How are you feeling, jessica?
Jessica (00:46):
Very excited we get to see some old friends by breaking
into book four.
Kritter (00:51):
Did you expect that?
Like being broken up by book.
Jessica (00:54):
I actually didn't.
So this is another thing whereI really don't look ahead.
So I didn't even look atchapter titles.
Kritter (01:02):
So as.
Jessica (01:02):
I flipped into uh, book four and saw the first chapter
title, I was like oh, I probablycould have guessed, but I
didn't why?
Why, well like I like to cometo the experience fresh I like
it.
Kritter (01:16):
that's a good attitude to have, um, but before we do
revisit some of our old friends,we've got more recent friends
in uh, while we're still in bookthree, so are you ready to dive
in Any new news?
I will point out, if you're notwatching on YouTube but you are
listening on the podcastplatform, jessica's got a bit of
a different background going.
(01:37):
How excited are you for that?
What do we have behind you?
If you want to describe it?
Jessica (01:42):
What do we have behind you, if you want to describe it?
So what we have behind me is aridiculously large bookshelf
that I just purchased andchucker block filled with
everything that has been inboxes.
I think I've mentioned beforethat we were about to perform a
move.
Said move is done, new shelvesacquired and swag is
(02:04):
appropriately represented behindme.
So I'm very excited.
Because of my old space, Iwasn't able to have my shelves
behind me, so I am super excited.
Kritter (02:13):
That's what's new with me.
That's awesome.
So what I can see right nowfrom where I'm at is we've got
some Wheel of Time, we've gotsome Brandon Sanderson, we've
got Gone with the Wind likefront and center.
Do you have Lord of the ringson your shelves?
Jessica (02:27):
I do right above the hobbit and lord of the rings is
in a little set right there.
I also have a gray down there,lord of the rings but it didn't
fit the aesthetic that washappening over here.
These are all my little books.
Oh, that's so cute.
Kritter (02:48):
So organization schemes like the way they just
sometimes.
Jessica (02:51):
There was lots of tweaking.
There was lots of tweaking.
I kept sending people finalpictures and then, three to five
minutes later, I'd send themanother final picture.
Kritter (03:02):
Well, I have to say congratulations.
I think it looks amazing.
I love a good bookshelf and Ithink you really nailed it.
The shelfy game is strong heretoday.
Thanks, chica.
All right, you ready to getinto the books?
Let's do it.
The book, I guess.
Okay.
So book three, chapter 11, thePalantir, the party departs.
(03:24):
Isengard and Merry manages toget some information from
Gandalf about their next stepswhen they camp for the night.
Pippin is inconsolably curiousabout Gandalf, and particularly
the mysterious glass ball, henotes.
He knows he can't have it withGandalf sitting on it like a hen
on an egg, but he doesn't justleave it at that.
(03:45):
Thoughts on Pippin's insatiablecuriosity and a little bit of
burglary in this chapter.
Jessica (03:52):
So at first I didn't think much of it, which I think
leads to you know, leads me tocompliment the subtlety of
Tolkien when he wrote it.
At first I didn't really thinkmuch of it, and then the way
that he kept kind of houndingMary about how he just wasn't
going to be able to go to sleepwithout knowing more, and at one
(04:14):
point I had tabbed it,highlighted it in my Kindle and
it said this feels a lot likering-type behavior and I don't
like it.
And it said this feels a lotlike ring-type behavior and I
don't like it.
Kritter (04:26):
Oh, Okay, I can see that.
See, I was thinking more alongthe lines of he's giving Bilbo
here like the consummate burglar.
You know, he even went so faras to replace the Palantir with
a stone, so that Gandalfwouldn't notice.
Jessica (04:41):
Very Indiana.
Kritter (04:42):
Jones, very Indiana Jones.
Jessica (04:45):
Yeah.
Kritter (04:45):
It's just like you know , we were so surprised or maybe
we weren't surprised, but it wasfun to see how Bilbo kind of
eventually came to thrive in hisburglar role, and it turns out
that he's not the only hobbitthat's got some skills.
Jessica (04:58):
No, that was really impressive, but it was.
It was both things at once.
It was impressive how he wasable to get it away from Gandalf
, but also equally terrifyingthat he wanted it so bad that he
was willing to go to thoselengths.
And in my mind I had alreadydrawn a correlation between the
draw of this palantir and thering that it heightened the
(05:19):
discomfort I felt as well.
It heightened the discomfort Ifelt as well.
Kritter (05:24):
Yeah, no, it's like a really good connection to have
made.
I didn't even think about itthat way, but he was like truly
fixated on it the moment he sawit.
It turns out he just got hooked.
So, yeah, it's giving ring forsure.
So we didn't get anything fromthis at first.
As far as details, pippin takesit, he looks into it, he
(05:46):
screams and he gets caught.
This left me kind of impatientfor details.
Were you like oh, we're notgoing to find anything out at
this point, or did you expectsomething later?
Jessica (05:58):
I hoped that we would get something.
So there is another book seriesfrom my childhood called
Dragonlance and there is amagical orb that does gnarly
things to people in it in thatbook, and so that very much put
me in mind of that.
For any you know, dragonlancebuffs out there.
So I was like they're going totell us, they're absolutely
(06:22):
going to tell us.
But I was.
I was absolutely on the edge ofmy seat.
Obviously, this is all newcontent for me.
I had no idea what to expectfrom this, so I was very
enthralled for this chapter.
Kritter (06:35):
So he did eventually relay what went down with some
major prying from Gandalf.
Were there any standout detailsfor you?
Jessica (06:45):
I have highlighted here .
Forgive you, tell me first whatyou have done and I had also.
I don't think I wrote it downthat you know the look on
Gandalf's face was like haggardand weary and he was very
concerned about pippin's welfare.
(07:05):
Um, or at least that's how Ichose to read it.
Um, there's also another great,great quote from this area do
not meddle in the affairs ofwizards, for they are subtle and
quick to anger.
I had not heard that quotebefore, so I thought that that
was pretty neat.
Kritter (07:23):
Um it honestly, that does.
It sounds just like a phraseanybody could say you know, it
sounds like obvious words ofwisdom that I could have thought
of if I thought about it for asecond.
But it's just, you know, ofcourse.
That's of course.
Jessica (07:36):
That's the case, yeah so, uh and honestly, mary and
pippin, leading up to this, hadjust had a discussion of how
Gandalf was the same, but alsohow Gandalf was different, and
even the way they described itwas.
You know, good old Gandalf, butalso a little scarier you know,
to paraphrase how they said itthat's really, you know.
(07:59):
Oh, he's still Gandalf, butlike a little bit scarier.
Kritter (08:05):
Yeah, not fully sure what his vibe is.
Jessica (08:21):
So I thought that this was fascinating, that Pippin was
reluctant to own up to whatactually happened because he
knew that he had messed up sobad and was genuinely scared to
tell Gandalf.
But this was another huge loredump that seems like it's only
about the Palantir, but stillgave me so much more insight
into the difference and therelationship between Isengard
and Mordor, Sauron and Sarumanand the nature of the Palantir
(08:42):
itself, like I really only knowwhat the movies had told me.
Yeah, and it was just a seeingeye, but the idea of him being
able to converse with pippinthrough it was horrifying.
Kritter (08:57):
You know the stuff of nightmares, so really, really
interesting stuff, yeah, it wasso things that stood out to me
whenever he could see through it, obviously, because it's also
like a seeing eye glass,whatever.
Um, there were nine weekendcreatures.
So I'm like, okay, we've gotthe uh, we've got the ring race
(09:17):
nine, the nine men and theirfell beasts.
Um, whenever he's in, ininteracting with saran, saran
initially asked why he haddelayed reporting for so long.
Um, implying that he thoughtthat pippin was saruman at first
and also that saruman had beenavoiding him before eisengard
(09:38):
was even taken, I assume.
So that was like an interesting.
You mentioned figuring out theinterplay between mordor and
eisengard.
That was part of the plot.
You know they were.
They were not exactly seeingeye to eye at that moment.
We did kind of know that, butjust that it was confirmed
straight from the horse's mouthwas interesting.
And then, once sauron found outthat it was a hobbit like
(09:59):
whenever he was like who are youor what are you or whatever,
and Pippin responds a hobbit, hegets all like hyped and extra
cruel.
I thought that was kind ofreally chilling.
Basically, just like you know,don't go anywhere, I'm coming
for you, just like that's kindof terrible to have that kind of
you know person or beingfocused very, very exclusively
(10:22):
on you.
Not wouldn't have been mychoice to be in Pippa's shoes.
Not at all Gross.
So after that, after thathorrible encounter, gandalf
takes the Palantir back andoffers it to Aragorn, who notes
that it was probably his byright anyway, as it likely
belonged to hisgreat-great-great, etc.
(10:44):
Grandpappy ellendeal.
Any final thoughts about thisnew, this one palantir?
Jessica (10:53):
um, it's crazy to me that these are around and that
that aragorn would be a aninheritor of this.
Yeah, that it would go tosomeone who is not a wizard, but
okay.
The other thing about thisexchange was the way that
Aragorn and Gandalf had a littleback and forth here, just a
(11:16):
blip, where Gandalf essentiallytells them you know, be wary,
don't be hasty.
Whatever you do, don't use ityet.
And Aragorn basically says whenhave you ever known me to be
hasty or unwary?
And then this is just such agreat line.
Gandalf's reply is never yet.
Do not then stumble at the endof the road.
(11:39):
And I was like so I liked itbecause Aragorn kind of pushed
back like I'm a pretty sensibledude.
Yeah, have some faith.
Yeah, but gandalf, still, youknow, stay the course, brother,
don't don't trip now, that wouldsuck right.
Kritter (11:57):
Well, gandalf doesn't even trust himself to look into
it now, and so it's like youknow he's.
If he's doubting himself, hehas every right to doubt
literally anybody, because he'sGandalf the White man.
Yeah, that was an interestingexchange for sure.
I was just.
I get more and more.
I don't know why I keep gettingsurprised by Aragorn, Because
when he was Strider he felt alittle more reserved.
(12:19):
I guess he felt a little more Idon't want to say like
self-conscious, but just not assure of himself.
Jessica (12:29):
He was fine, but nothing like crazy.
And then he just has come intohis own as aragon, son of a
marathon, like he was verycasual, like no.
Kritter (12:33):
And now he's like, oh yeah, that's mine anyways.
And I'm like, oh okay, sir,like good for you, I guess.
Uh, yeah, which I don't hate.
I like somebody who knows whatthey're owed, I guess what
they're worth.
So there was a.
There was another line in hereit was actually not aragorn or
gandalf, but theoden saidsomething that I had to
(12:53):
literally like read like seventimes to figure out what he was
saying.
He says oft evil will shallevil mar, and uh, and I was
reading will as a verb, which iswhy I was having a problem.
But um, yeah, it's uh, it'sjust a testament to how
(13:13):
sometimes the way that Tolkienwrites is a little dense.
Jessica (13:20):
It was just like I read that sentence four times.
Kritter (13:23):
Yeah, it's like okay, what do we what?
The heck Like what?
Jessica (13:25):
am I missing?
Yeah, what?
Kritter (13:27):
what did I?
How am I misreading this?
It's not, they're not big words.
So yeah, just if.
If you ever struggle or need toreread any passages or
sentences, don't, don't feel bad.
Jessica (13:41):
You can sit with us.
It's cool.
Kritter (13:43):
Yeah, you can absolutely sit with us.
It's cool.
Yeah, you can absolutely seewhat was that.
One was a.
The one was a tongue twister, alittle brain burner.
Um, all right.
So a flying creatureunexpectedly passes over the
moon and even though where theywere kind of like camped for the
night, gandalf just basicallyorders them all to ride on like
we've got to get out of here.
The Nazgul have crossed theriver.
(14:04):
Pippin is with Gandalf andobserves that he's riding
bareback.
They're riding ahead onShadowfax.
Gandalf remarks that Shadowfaxwon't have a hardness and you
don't ride him.
He decides whether or not tocarry you and if he does, then
he'll keep you on his backunless you decide to literally
jump off.
So what do you think?
(14:25):
Horse girl, best horse ever oh,I love it.
Jessica (14:28):
Yeah, no, I.
I read it and I wrote dangstraight yeah, of course you
don't ride.
I don't fax the lord of thehorses, come on now yeah, yeah,
yeah it's.
Kritter (14:38):
Oh, my gosh, this reminds me of uh okay, have you
seen tropic?
Jessica (14:42):
thunder.
Uh, when it first came out, agajillion years ago.
Kritter (14:47):
First of all, I absolutely adore that movie.
Some of it I get is dumb humor,but some of it is so brilliant
I can't get enough.
It makes me LOL every time.
But it reminds me of RobertDowney Jr's character when he
takes himself very seriously asan actor and he's like I don't
read the script.
The script reads me.
Takes himself very seriously asan actor and he's like I don't
read the script.
(15:07):
Script reads me, like you know,right, shadow facts, it's not
shadow facts rides you.
Shadow facts decide, decideswhether to bear you and and if
he does, then you don't have toworry about staying on his back.
He'll keep you there.
Just it was.
It was fun and intense.
Sounds like a pretty greathorse.
Jessica (15:25):
Having ridden bareback at speed for a long distance.
The reality probably doesn'thold up, unless you have the
lord of horses as your mount.
What?
Kritter (15:37):
was the occasion for that.
Jessica (15:40):
I was a horse girl so I just decided to hop up.
I was also 15 and bulletproof,I don't know about you, but when
I was a horse girl, so you know, give it a try Just decided to
hop up.
I was also 15 and bulletproof,I don't know about you, but when
I was 15, I was indestructible.
So you know, nothing would holdme back from just taking my
horse out on the lead line andjust hopping up bareback and
running down a trail.
Kritter (16:01):
Totally.
How do you even get up on ahorse without a saddle?
Jessica (16:05):
I'm 15 and you're this big around you just grab the
mane.
Hop up like.
Kritter (16:10):
Legolas, oh, come on, you have to at least pull
yourself up somehow it doesdepend on how tall the horse is.
Okay, that's fair.
My family, actually for a longtime, my uncle and my grandpa
and my dad, they, uh, they wouldgo hunting in colorado like
once a year out hunting, if theydrew the tags and uh, so they
had mules, not horses but, theywere shorter, stockier, um more
(16:36):
stubborn, for sure, but I Ihaven't ridden many horses in my
life yeah, I'm not saying thatthat's recommended behavior for
anybody.
Jessica (16:47):
I want to be 100% clear PSA, don't let your children do
that.
It's a bad idea.
Kritter (16:53):
Okay, I was unsupervised.
Jessica (16:55):
I was unsupervised.
Okay, well, that sounds like avery 15-year-old thing to do, so
I forgive you and I live totell the tale, but Shadowfax
sounds like a dream to get usback on the rails.
Kritter (17:07):
Yeah, like love that for everyone that you don't have
to worry about falling off.
That could be really great forme, who's only read a few horses
in my life.
Okay, so now that we've talkedabout the horse, we get a little
bit more about the Palantiri,which is the plural of the
Palantir.
About the Palantiri, which isthe plural of the Palantir,
(17:30):
there were seven, possiblycrafted by Feanor, who is a
Noldor or a high elf of old, andmen communicated with one
another through them directly,except in the case of the one
that was at Osgiliath before itsruin, which could basically
look in on.
Any of them is what Iunderstood.
Gandalf guessed that Sauron gota hold of the one that was in
(17:51):
Minas Ithil, which is the towerhe took, and turned into Minas
Morgul.
So that's a lot of new words,some of them new.
Did anything pique yourinterest from the palantir's
backstory?
Jessica (18:06):
uh.
So again there was one palantirto rule them all.
It kind of felt like which, youknow, and I I did pay attention
to the fact that there was onein osgiliath and that you know
it said uh, not minister.
At the other menace that wasessentially taken over, you know
, by the bad guys.
(18:26):
Eethu.
Thank you.
Kritter (18:28):
Yes, You're welcome.
It's a lot of names.
The only reason I know it isbecause I wrote it down.
Jessica (18:33):
It's like okay, yeah, so I thought that that was
interesting.
I just to draw another analogy,you know, kind of like the
Wheel of Time, age of Legendstypes artifact, where this is
how this was used in a moreglorified time period in a past
(18:53):
age.
This is how this technology wasused, or this arcane, how these
arcane items were used, and nowthey're nowhere to be found.
Kritter (19:07):
Or they're not being used for the.
They're not being used asintended right, the best
purposes, of course.
Like when I found out there waslike one palantir to rule them
all, my first instinct wasthat's the one sauron has.
And then gandalf decided, or atleast speculated, that no, in
fact that's the one that meanestmorgel and I was.
I understand that makes sense.
But the paranoid me still iswondering where is the master
(19:30):
palantir?
Where is that thing hiding?
Um, not that I don't even, Ican't even remember if I find
out ever, but uh, I am curious.
Did.
Are you curious at all?
Jessica (19:41):
where the big one is oh oh absolutely Okay, Not just me
, then.
I'm just like I'd never trustanyone.
But I'm like, are they sittingin abandoned towers, unused, you
know what I mean?
Are they sitting in an atticsomewhere Under?
Kritter (19:54):
rubble because Osgiliath fell.
Yeah, there's a lot ofopportunity.
It could just be gone, gone,which is a thing that happens.
Destroyed Right.
That happens, destroyed Right.
So who knows?
Who knows Anyway.
So Gandalf lets Pippin knowthat they are actually headed to
Minas Tirith.
They're not going back toHelm's Deep or anything like
that.
And Pippin eventually begins tofall asleep with the strange
(20:15):
feeling that him and Gandalf arestill a stone, seated upon the
statue of a running horse, whilethe world rolled away beneath
his feet with a great noise ofwind.
That was the end of book.
Three Final thoughts.
Jessica (20:33):
I loved that Pippin took advantage of his solo time
with Gandalf and was kind ofgrilling him, yeah, and even
called him out a little bit,right.
So he mentions to Gandalf thathe wants to get some answers and
Gandalf feels chastised abouthow.
You know, it is my job to takecare of you and and you are, you
(20:56):
know, I forgot how he worded it, but making me rethink how you
define the word, meaning how,how I take care of others.
And then so Pippin continues toquestion him and he says what
more do you want to know?
And Pippin's like the name ofall the stars, of all the living
things, the whole history ofmetal, earth, of course, what
(21:18):
less?
And I'm just like I love inthat moment, I just loved him so
much for just being curious.
Kritter (21:27):
Curious little hobbitses.
Yes, curious little hobbitses.
Jessica (21:30):
Yes, there was some poetry that was shared during
Gandalf and Pippin's ride thathad a hyperlink, so it was
footnoted, but it was notbehaving appropriately.
It felt like it was taking meto another part of the book so I
didn't wind up reading it, butthe lore that he was sharing in
there seemed significantPalantir related.
Kritter (21:56):
No, I feel like this was.
Jessica (21:57):
No, I feel like this was.
Honestly, I thought it hadsomething to do with the
migration of the elves, like howthe elves moved around.
Hold on, I can find it.
Kritter (22:19):
If we ever get through an episode where I don't have to
look for something, it will bewell, but then what's the point
of taking notes or whatever likethis?
Jessica (22:24):
uh, makes sense, here we go tall ships and tall kings
three times three.
What brought they from thefoundered land over the flowing
sea?
Seven stars and seven stonesand one white tree.
So the the one white tree mademe think of, uh, what I believe
might be the elvish origin storyfor at least middle earth, and
(22:49):
I know that, like there's ahistory I don't know at all
because I'm not have not readthe silmarillion, but I've
definitely had enough contextclues from the reading that we
have done that it seems like theelves originated elsewhere,
came here and then, you know, asa species, are choosing to
leave again.
So that's what that made methink of.
(23:12):
Okay, yeah, and that could stayrhetorical, but that's, um, you
know, that definitely caught myeye, uh, and the one white tree
specifically stood out.
Kritter (23:23):
Yeah, that also kind of reminds me of rings of power.
Jessica (23:27):
There's a lot of trees and rings of power so when it
mentioned feanor and the noldorI I was like is feanor somebody
that we met in rings of power?
I don't know if we met him, butI believe he might have been
referenced I think that's rightI think that's right.
Yeah, and I fully intend tojump right back in when those
come up yeah, that one.
(23:49):
We just got the teaser trailerfor that okay, I haven't seen
because I've been on unpackingbooks, but I'll be watching that
very soon, that's fair, uh, allright, anything else for book
three done.
Kritter (24:01):
That's it for book three.
Okay, big transition, drum roll.
Oh my gosh time.
We're moving on to book four,chapter one, the taming of
smiegel.
So you saw the movies.
We know what's about to happenhere, but three days have passed
(24:21):
since frodo and sam departedfrom the fellowship, so we are
rewinding, pressing reset oneverything we read from the
fellowship members the otherfellowship members at least.
Are you feeling like whiplashwhere?
Where are you at here with this?
Jump back in time.
Jessica (24:37):
Uh, I'm glad that we are just jumping kind of almost
at least all the way back,instead of trying to do it like
them in a hot spot and trying tosomehow flash back and cover
the interim time.
So I I would rather go back tothe beginning.
I'm with Gimli right, like Ilike a chronological story.
It really works for me.
Yeah, I get it.
(24:58):
So I was glad that we, you know, did the full rewind, because
that's honestly just easier forme.
Kritter (25:05):
That's fair.
So the chapter starts out veryhobbity.
Sam is tiring of lembas cravingbread and beer, still carrying
around pots and pans withnothing to put in them.
Meanwhile, frodo is despondentover time lost and opportunities
lost.
Now this to me feels like a bigtone shift from what we were
(25:26):
just reading like.
Would you agree?
Does it feel different?
Jessica (25:30):
but we think so this was this is almost two weeks
back.
Kritter (25:37):
That sounds right.
Jessica (25:38):
Yeah, I think that sounds right Somewhere between a
week and two weeks back.
And if you think back to wherewe were at, you know Frodo just
had that altercation withBoromir, yeah, and he and Sam
have been fleeing not verysuccessfully in these really
(26:00):
jagged hills.
So I think despondency isdefinitely a tone shift but
seems justified given where wepick up with them.
Kritter (26:10):
Yeah, where he was back , God, two weeks.
I'd have to actually count it,but it feels like so much has
happened.
Jessica (26:17):
It was nine days that the Hobbits were separated right
.
It was nine days that Merry andPippin were separated from
Aragorn, legolas and Gimli, wow,and then we had more time pass.
Yeah, so if for these we have,three days has passed since the
(26:38):
Boromir altercation, so thestart of this book.
Kritter (26:42):
Yeah.
Jessica (26:43):
So yeah, you could say, probably nine days roughly have
passed.
Kritter (26:50):
Wow, helm's Deep Battle of Isengardgard, all of them
nine days, jesus who?
Whoever says the tolkien isslow, they're wrong.
Jessica (27:03):
yeah, it's, it's very yeah no I feel like we're doing
stuff every episode yeah, it's,it's.
Kritter (27:09):
It's a lot of making moves, for sure, um, okay, so
Frodo finds a place he thinks istheir best chance to climb down
, cause they are, they have beenstuck unable to really advanced
.
Um, and Sam agrees but insiststhat he gets to climb down first
.
Obviously, and this kind ofbecomes a theme.
This chapter, do you have any?
Jessica (27:34):
thoughts about Frodo and Sam's multiple climbing
mishaps.
I just love.
I am there for the loyalty bid,so Samwise has many fine
features.
Loyalty is definitely a hugedraw for me.
There's my favorite quote fromthis chapter, though, is about
that, you know, regarding Sampreparing to climb down first to
(27:57):
you know.
Check it out for Frodo.
It is doubtful if he ever didanything braver in cold blood or
more unwise, and I just I lovethat right.
I know that it's notnecessarily a way to live your
life, but that, to me,encapsulates their entire
relationship.
(28:17):
Sam will do whatever it takes.
Kritter (28:20):
Yeah, I thought it was really sweet.
I just you know.
You know I love Sam.
But one thing that made mereally laugh was when he
remembered that he had rope,like they were like trying to
free climb down this cliff.
Jessica (28:35):
So I'd written a note of like that dang rope.
We knew it was a thing back inthe day when it got mentioned.
And here we are and he evenmakes a comment about he carried
it for hundreds of miles and Ijust never have I ever related
more.
You know, just being like dangit.
You know I put this Tide pen inmy purse for a reason.
(28:55):
I finally dumped the salsa onmyself and I forgot.
I got all the way home before Iremembered I had the Tide pen.
You know like I get it.
Perfect analogy I get it.
Kritter (29:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So he's like he was so fixatedon the fact that he didn't have
rope.
Then he gets the rope, then heforgets about the rope.
It just felt perfect.
Jessica (29:18):
It was so relatable and then it turns out the rope is
somewhat magical, so it shedssome kind of soft light that
helps um in a really importantway.
And then somehow Sam ismagically able to ask nicely,
and the rope unties itself.
Come on, that's awesome.
Kritter (29:40):
That is awesome.
So I will point out before wemove on is that I learned
something new with this one.
So Sam says that the rope wasabout 30 L's and I had to look
up L.
So, fun fact, an L is about1.25 yards, so the rope was
(30:01):
about 112 feet long, which is along rope.
Also, just for everyone'sfathom, is a word that I had
heard before, but I'd never likeactually looked it up.
Two yards is a fathom.
Um, so that is a fact that weknow now.
Um, and so we mentioned sam andfrodo.
(30:23):
They finally make it down withsome help from this rope, and
sam laments the fact that theyhave to leave it behind.
Though you mentioned, thatdidn't end up how it ended up.
His exclamations though noodlesand ninny hammers I'm
immediately adding that one tomy repertoire.
But you said the ropeultimately made its way down to
(30:43):
Sam, just because he askednicely or whatever.
Do you think this is magic?
Just magic with a capital M?
Elvish magic.
What do we think?
Jessica (30:53):
I think it's lowercase magic.
So we talked a little bit abouthow hobbits aren't an
inherently magical species, butthey had some traits that do
seem to lend them abilities thatcan have an almost magic-like
quality, and I feel like therope is an extension of elvish
lowercase magic.
You know what I mean that thework that they do is just imbued
(31:15):
with this natural essence thatyou know gives advantage on the
decks rolls.
I don't know, I don't know howelse to explain it, but you know
, you're able to shake the ropeand it just comes undone.
And I love the fact that he,you know, was like you can.
You can bad mouth a lot ofthings about me, but don't be
(31:38):
talking smack about how I tieknots.
Yeah, okay.
Kritter (31:43):
It runs in my family.
Okay, I'm good at tying knots.
Jessica (31:45):
I've been tying knots, since I was knee high to a
grasshopper is the total vibethat I got from that.
And the ninny hammer.
He was calling himself namesand so I had to remember that
Gaffer was his father.
And so he's calling himself thenames that his father would
(32:05):
have called him, which is againvery relatable right.
Like a lot, of our innermonologues are dominated by
people that we love.
True, and so yeah, I was likeoh, Ninny Hammer, something your
dad used to call you Got it.
Kritter (32:23):
Noodles, such a good curse yeah.
Jessica (32:26):
I love it, but whatever you do, no, not slander.
Yeah, that's where we draw theline.
Yeah, he would be good draw theline.
Kritter (32:32):
Yeah, he would be good at tying knots even outside the
Shire.
Jessica (32:35):
He would be considered an apt knot tier.
Kritter (32:39):
So the two finally crash for the night once they've
made it down and they notice adark figure climbing down the
cliff after them like a nastycrawling spider on a wall.
Ugh, good description.
Didn't love how it made me feel.
Enter Gollum Any thoughts aboutFrodo and Sam's Gollum
snatching efforts?
Jessica (33:02):
So I was not happy that Sam's internal dialogue about
Gollum was so kind of hateful,just very.
I'm not saying it's notdeserved, but it starts out
really super negative and Idon't like that.
I do also think it's verycreepy that Gollum can climb
(33:27):
down head first, that's supercreepy.
I do like the fact that Frodogot pretty assertive here.
So once they figured out thething with the rope, frodo's
like I don't want to be caughtout here.
You know, frodo's really kindof taking charge and not just
(33:49):
being a passive bystander.
Yeah, um, so letting sam knowto go ahead and tie that to the
stump and and we'll do this andwe'll do that.
So that was another commentfrom this general vicinity.
And then, um, yeah, so, likesam even said, he can try his
nasty flappy feet on thoseledges.
Kritter (34:11):
Yeah, like it gets really spiteful when it comes to
gollum like I don't know how Ifeel about that buddy yeah.
So speaking of this kind ofinteraction, um, it brings up an
interesting legal andphilosophical issue.
So frodo decides that theycan't kill gollum because he
hadn't done them any harm.
Sam points out that Gollumdefinitely intended to harm them
(34:35):
, and Frodo responded that whatGollum meant to do was entirely
a different matter.
So there's this topic of debatepreemptive punishment.
To what extent can we punish aperson or deprive them of
liberty for something theyhaven't even done yet?
There's also, of course, aconcept of an attempted crime,
which is punishable, but toconvict someone of an attempt
(34:57):
they have to have taken like astep toward completion of the
crime.
That's sort of the requirement,I think.
Sam, in less words, is arguingthat Gollum following them
essentially was his step towardcompletion of whatever evil deed
probably murder that heintended, and Frodo seems to
think not at least that hewasn't worthy of punishment just
(35:17):
yet.
What do you think?
Would any punishment be toopremature, or was Gollum
attempting a crime here?
Jessica (35:26):
I would side with Frodo in this, even though it's a
hard topic.
And again, I feel like youngerme had a different take than
older me.
I feel like younger me whenpresented with the topic of
preemptive punishment in movieslike Minority Report or any
(35:47):
other media.
You know, I find it the ideafascinating.
But as I've gotten older, intentdoes matter, but also so does
following through Um, and weknow that I stand Gollum in a
lot of ways, so I'm sure thatthat bias doesn't help Um but if
(36:09):
we were all damned before wetook the action, redemption
would never be possible foranyone, and I live in a world
where I think that it'simportant to believe in our
ability to redeem ourselves andto be better.
Yeah, and if we can't be better, then what are we even trying
to do?
Fair, fair, fair fair so I wantto believe in a world of
(36:32):
redemption, and so I'm gonnaside with frodo and say that
it's not enough that he'sfollowing um, that there is
still something there to saveokay, that's fair.
Kritter (36:43):
I I tend to agree.
I like the um.
You know we got flashbacks inthis chapter of the conversation
with gandalf where who are youto decide who gets to live or
die?
You know there are people thatlive that deserve death and
people that die that deservelife.
All of that and I love thesentiment um.
I do think I don't.
I don't know that I would havegone as far as Frodo went in the
(37:06):
trust department like right,you know, not having him tied up
, being okay with that, uh itthat there were some.
I think I would basically findmyself in the middle between sam
and frodo, in the sense that Iwouldn't trust gollum and I
would take steps to ensure thathe couldn't betray me, but I
(37:30):
also wouldn't tie him up andleave him to die or murder him
in cold blood, basically BecauseI tend to agree Him following
them could also, even though heprobably would have killed them.
You know, that's definitelyconceivable.
He was following them first andforemost because they had the
precious right he could sense it, he's driven to it.
(37:52):
He's driven to it.
He's driven to it and so it'snot entirely his fault.
So I'm like leaning towards youhere a little bit.
Jessica (38:00):
I know you're like I've got that sympathy for him and I
feel like elijah wood played it, still very skeptical, you know
.
Uh, it's.
So going back into this,knowing that we're with gollum
right away, absolutely put likeI cannot wait to watch these.
Oh the way, there is a showingof the Fellowship in my area and
I'm going to go watch it.
Yes, I'm so glad.
Sidebar everybody.
(38:21):
Sorry, but I'm going to gowatch it on the big screen for
the first time ever.
Kritter (38:25):
That is so exciting.
I'm going to go see the Returnof the King because Mr Critter
didn't want to go see three lordof the rings movies three days
straight, which I guess I canunderstand so I only saw
fellowship in my area.
Jessica (38:37):
I'll have to go back and look.
As we know, june is a littlebit of a busy month, so we'll
see yeah, it is, it is well itis.
Kritter (38:44):
It's like fellowship is on june 8th or like it's
literally like one of them isjune 8th, one of them is june
9th, one of them is June 10th orsomething along those lines,
and so it's uh, it's tricky,it's a.
It's a Saturday, sunday, monday, so I'm seeing return on Monday
because that's the only day.
Jessica (39:02):
Well, that's funny because it's in my area on June
8th as well.
But I only looked up.
The fellowship is in my area onJune 8th.
So now I'm going to wind upgoing back and looking.
I don't know.
Kritter (39:14):
Look at you, Knife, I'm going to, but I do think you
know I wouldn't if I were you,just because, like you're
putting off watching them beforeyou've read them, I would.
You know, two Towers is fairgame because we'll be done
reading them by then.
Yeah, close enough at least, butI would I don't know I would
wait on return, yep, even thoughit's my favorite, just because,
(39:37):
yeah, but it's obviously up toyou.
I mean, getting to see them intheaters again is just such an
opportunity that it's hard topass up fellowship is such a
good movie that I'll be happy,even if I just make it to that
one.
Jessica (39:51):
It's a perfect movie it movie.
Kritter (39:53):
It's not my favorite of the three because it doesn't
make me cry as much.
I love to feel the emotion.
But Fellowship, I think, is themost just bookended, perfect
story.
I think it's excellent.
Just a beautiful, beautifulmovie.
I think you've got a reallygood choice there and I believe
fellowship is actually mrcritter's favorite as well.
(40:15):
But we went with return becauseit was up to me, because he was
the one who limited which one,how many we could go to.
Jessica (40:22):
I will say that mr jessica had a similar sentiment,
like you're only gonna get oneand it's not gonna be the two
towers.
It's not going to be the twotowers, it's like, oh, okay.
Kritter (40:33):
Some people's favorite is the two towers.
That's so interesting Not me,but some people.
Some people it's a good one,they're all good.
I mean, they're amazing,anyways, yeah, anyways, okay.
So we talked about theconversations between Gollum and
the hobbits.
Jessica (40:48):
They were so interesting to me.
Kritter (40:49):
There's pity hostility, groveling and lots of Gollum
talking to himself.
So how did these go over foryou?
Jessica (40:57):
So I want to go back just for one second to you,
mentioning that flashback fromthe Gandalf conversation,
tempering Frodo's response andcounseling him to feel pity.
You know, even the wise cannotsee all ends.
I love the fact that all ofthat dialogue was in set into
(41:17):
this chapter, like it wasthoroughly called out.
Now, granted, it was only aFrodo flashback, but I love the
fact that he put it right in.
And then the back and forth.
You know Frodo telling Samright up front, don't
underestimate him, he's stillvery dangerous.
Sam getting bit sounds terrible.
Having all of this back andforth really just kind of points
(41:43):
out just how far gone Gollum is.
You know just how desperate heis.
The ingratiation, um,eventually swearing to them, uh,
definitely all.
He's clearly in a verydesperate time.
(42:06):
Um and then the tying of theropes, and the ropes feeling
like it's burning him, and thelembas just revulsing.
You know, it just repels him.
Uh, all of these things arejust show how far from the light
he is.
Kritter (42:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild.
Gollum asks where they're goingand frodo's reply was kind of
chilling for me.
He's like you know, you knowthat, like you've guessed that
I'm just like these two.
They have this, you know, likethey have this weird connection.
They have this really weirdconnection, and so just the fact
that frodo kind of like changeswhen he talks to gollum- that
(42:45):
his tone, his demeanor,everything, and sam's like
witnessing it, and we'rewitnessing it too, and he just
feels like a completelydifferent person.
Jessica (42:53):
But he's also the first one to call him smiegel you
know what I mean like, yeah,that's not sam, that's frodo who
is going to use his real nameand and sam even makes a comment
about the two were in some wayakin and not alien so even sam's
, you know internal monologuecomments on.
You know there's already aparody there of some kind yeah,
(43:17):
it was weird, it was.
Kritter (43:18):
It was a weird thing to see.
Um, so you mentioned they tryto.
He tries to run away wheneverthey fall asleep and then they
catch him again, try to put hima rope.
The rope burns him, which I wasskeptical about.
Like, is he faking, you know,because he's so manipulative.
But then frodo eventually comesto believe that it's really
hurting him.
So he takes it off of him andgets this idea that he should
(43:38):
swear by the precious so thatthey can trust him and the swear
golem ultimately gives is toserve the master of the precious
, which literally broke mylawyer brain because the master
of the precious could be anyonein this case possession is 10
tenths of the law.
Did this bother you at all?
Jessica (44:01):
bother.
Kritter (44:01):
No, but I'm not a lawyer okay, really, god, I
thought it would.
I was like this is sotransparent, how did frodo not
be?
Jessica (44:08):
like me.
It is, it is um.
So I took that.
You know, I feel like.
At first, frodo said are yousure you want to swear on on
this ring, this, this ring thatyou know has this negative power
?
You want to be beholden tohaving your oath sworn on this
(44:29):
ring?
Um?
So I hadn't, really I didn't.
I was more caught up in thatthan okay, the language of I
swear to the master, not to saythat I saw that it was full of
wiggle room holes.
Yeah, it bothered, but it justwasn't the thing that I was
primarily focused on yeah, and Iguess I kind of forgot.
Kritter (44:53):
Well, I didn't forget, but now it's making me think of
how.
You know, the game of riddleswas like such a sacred thing and
I'm trying to remember.
Is there something similar withoaths, where it's like in this
universe, giving an oath is likemore than just I promise you
know what I mean.
I'm like I might be wrong aboutthat.
Maybe I'm just thinking of theriddles.
(45:22):
But the fact that Frodo assumesthat the ring is going to like
actually legitimately bind.
Gollum Made me curious, likewhy?
Why is that the case?
And is it just like one ring torule them all?
You know, that's just the vibeof the ring, or is there
something more?
I just, I, I, I don't knowswearing on the ring, I guess
it's like swearing on the biblefor some people.
But even people who swear on thebible end up like and they lie
(45:44):
yeah, and so I was like I wouldliterally take this with an
absolute grain of salt.
But frodo seems to think, for awhile at least, it's gonna hold
him to it, and I just don'tknow why I had just, and so I
just took it like I took itsight unseen, like sure no
problem, because it's a magicalring.
Jessica (45:59):
So I was like it's a magical ring.
So to me the premise that thishas consequences, you know, for
swearing, forsaking an oath,sworn on this ring, would likely
have consequences because we'veseen how magical the ring is
okay fair enough, so I just tookit that's fair.
Kritter (46:19):
I mean, I should, I should basically thing number
one why does swearing on thisring matter?
Thing number two doesn't matter, because the oath he gave has
so many holes poked in it likethat it even if it was gonna
bind him, it's not really gonnabind him.
Those were my thoughts.
I don't, I didn't like it,basically, and that's the end of
the chapter.
Jessica (46:37):
Any thoughts for the remaining of the chapter.
It commented at the end of thischapter that something about
the oath triggered a tangiblechange in Smeagol's behavior.
And so this is probably.
This probably was representedon the screen in the movies, but
to hear it called out I waslike oh, okay, so we're
(47:02):
attributing it to that.
Kritter (47:03):
He gets real friendly, real fast.
Jessica (47:05):
He does, and I didn't know if it's intentional,
because he's trying toingratiate himself, or if it's
magically induced in some way,but his behavior has changed and
it's noted by the narrator atthe end of this chapter yeah,
yeah, I.
Kritter (47:24):
I constantly just think he's manipulating them, but I
am very I'm not as pro golem asyou are, so that's don't get me
wrong.
Jessica (47:33):
I know, I know he's a nasty, I do okay.
Kritter (47:38):
So book four, chapter two, the passage of the marshes.
The hobbits and smiegel stopfor a break and to avoid the
yellow face that gollum hates,aka the sun, um, and they
realized that, like the rope,gollum can't handle Lembas
either.
It makes the Lembas taste a lotbetter in Sam's eyes, who takes
(48:00):
the first watch.
So throughout this journey youtalked about this before in the
last chapter, but Sam remainsquite suspicious of Gollum, more
so than Frodo by far.
At this point, you've you feelyou're feeling more like frodo
than sam when it comes to gollum, or would you be as suspicious
(48:20):
as sam, basically?
Jessica (48:21):
I would be as suspicious as sam, don't get me
wrong.
I think that the suspicion ismore than merited.
I so for him to sit there andbe eating his lembas and to just
look at him and internally bemuttering he should have just
been choked out already.
Like that's extreme to me.
Yeah, especially for Sam, youknow.
(48:44):
And so, and in this chapter wetalk a little bit about how
everybody seems to be under theinfluence of something, how Sam
is under a spell not under aspell but under a weight and how
.
Frodo is definitely under aweight, and how?
Nobody's asking Gollum, but heseems to be under a weight as
well.
Um, so I think that you knowwhat it could be is the whatever
(49:08):
Paul is over them is having anegative impact on him, but to
just sit there eating your lunchand to look at somebody going
God, I wish somebody would justchoke you out.
Kritter (49:20):
That's not appropriate.
Jessica (49:22):
behavior Like that's not charitable in any way.
No, like the mean thoughts.
No, you know that's a littledark, that's a little twisty
even for me, especially from ourgolden retriever boy right Like
this is not the Samwise fromthe Green Dragon, I do agree
with that.
Kritter (49:42):
I don't like the mean, nasty thoughts.
I do agree with the suspicion.
So I'm somewhere in betweenFrodo and Sam.
Basically, I'm on Frodo's levelwhen it comes to not having
mean, nasty, terrible thoughts.
I'm on Sam's level when itcomes to not having mean, nasty,
terrible thoughts.
I'm on sam's level when itcomes to the suspicion.
Basically, um, okay.
So after a long day's sleep,frodo and sam wake up and sam
(50:02):
tries to take stock of theirfood inventory, asking frodo how
long their task taking the reedmortar was going to take and
what they were going to do aboutfood for the return they then
have a bit of a moment whereFrodo basically just says he
doesn't see them needinganything as he doesn't
anticipate there will be areturn journey.
(50:23):
Any thoughts about this prettytender moment between the two of
them?
Jessica (50:28):
I was just like, oh, we're saying the quiet parts out
loud, Okay, I thought that itwas very tender and vulnerable
for both of them and I love thatit was written out the way that
it was and that it was asvulnerable as it was.
Kritter (50:47):
Yeah, in the sort of description Sam holds Frodo's
hand and bows over it and hedoesn't kiss it.
They say, say, but his tears dolike fall onto his hand.
Um, and I found that to be justyet another classic Frodo and
Sam lesson in healthy maleintimacy.
Basically, like these two arejust they are bros, man, they
(51:08):
are like this and, uh, I kind oflove that about them, they,
they're just really sweettogether.
Yeah, yeah and also again.
Jessica (51:17):
So we pointed he's referred to him as master quite
a bit.
So again I managed to put itaside.
Right, he refers to him asmaster several times in these
first two chapters.
But this is a.
This is a moment between peers.
Yeah, you know and so it justadds layers to it that both of
(51:39):
them each allowed themselves tocross that divide between master
and servant, perceived orotherwise.
I don't feel like Frodo reallyperceives Sam as a servant, but
because Sam perpetuates the termmaster, it's hard to ignore it
on sam's part yeah, agreed, Iwish it was different, but it's
(52:02):
fine.
Kritter (52:03):
Uh, so the party finally reaches the dead marshes
and begins to cross themflickering lights and pale dead
faces in the water surround them, though, according to gollum,
the dead in the water are notphysically there.
There are men and elves andorcs laying there from a battle
long ago, and so we got to heara lot about what it looked and
(52:23):
felt like in the marshes.
Anything stand out to you?
Jessica (52:27):
Candles of corpses is a name, that's a thing.
So for the flickering lights,that's quite a thing, um, and
don't look in while the candlesare lit.
Uh-huh, those.
Those are some very specificelements that I was like, wow,
that really kind of elevates it.
So I remember I remember themarshes as kind of almost a
(52:52):
fever dream approach and this isjust a little bit more
horrifying.
So another way that the bookkind of amped up the experience,
so that was interesting to read.
Kritter (53:07):
Yeah, we got a lot of landscape description in this
one.
I know it was a lot, I'm notcomplaining, but I, I, I I'm so
much better at picking outliterary umami in the chapters
where the landscape is beautiful.
Right, we get these sweepinggrassy hills, what, like this?
(53:30):
Beautiful sunsets.
We get all this stuff and I'mlike, oh my god, this beautiful,
I love reading about this.
And then we get to the deadmarshes and we're getting a lot
of what it looks and feels likeand I'm just like I don't.
Jessica (53:42):
And it turns out the dead marshes aren't the deadest
thing, cause as they move beyondthe edges of the marshes, it's
worse.
The land is even worse, Um,even worse.
You know, at least in themarshes and I'm paraphrasing you
have the corpulence of stuffthat grows where things rot.
You don't even have that.
Kritter (54:03):
Yeah, it was a rough one.
It's harder for me, I think, tofocus on language when, like of
like descriptive language, whennot describing something pretty
that feels so shallow, but likethat's just kind of how I
experienced it personally.
Jessica (54:19):
It was all grays and Browns and gross and and fumes
and reeking and squishes.
Kritter (54:27):
It was all really bad.
Not a pleasant thing to read,for sure.
Jessica (54:33):
I think this all of that, all of that also kind of
glazed over.
The most interesting part ofthis chapter for me was sam
witnessing a golem smeagolconversation yeah, yeah, so
let's talk about that.
Kritter (54:47):
Uh, let's see what do I have here.
So sam, what yeah, uh, he talksabout?
He's talking to himself aboutwhat to do, about Frodo and the
Precious.
The Gollum side of theconversation points out that if
they just take the ring, theywould be the master and wouldn't
have to worry about obeyingFrodo, which I totally saw
coming.
And he carries on for a bitmaking plans, debating himself,
(55:09):
like talking about how she mighthelp them later, and then Sam
pretends to wake up becausethings are kind of getting a
little like they're ramping up.
He's kind of like workinghimself up to something.
How do you feel about how allthat went down?
Jessica (55:23):
I think that it was interesting because I, if I
remember correctly, there wasonly one scene in the movies
where somebody said what did yousay?
And he goes not talking to you,and that's as close as it's
come to anybody other than theaudience, the movie watchers,
experiencing a Gollum-Smingleconversation.
So having Sam see that, I think, is brilliant and interesting,
(55:48):
and I can't wait to see how thatplays out over the remainder of
their travels.
The other thing that reallyreally stood out to me about
Smeagol's argument with himselfis that there's hints of real
ambition in there.
So it's talking about beingLord Smeagol or Gollum the Great
(56:10):
, and it took me out of the bookfor a second.
I stopped and went whoa.
So coveting the ring endlesslydoesn't sure no problem.
Like that's the landscape thatI'm used to.
The idea of blind ambitionappealing to Smeagol in any way
(56:34):
threw me way off.
I could see that happening to acharacter who hadn't been
affected by the ring as long Iguess I don't know, but it was
just weird to me.
I'm like he's lived in a cave.
He eats raw, wriggly fishes.
The idea of him wanting to be alord or or in mastery of some
way was just so strange to methat was.
(56:57):
That was probably the biggestthing for that whole section was
I?
Kritter (57:01):
I did not see that coming I guess I just chalked it
up to like that's the influenceof the ring right, because the
dark lord is all about that,like becoming the ruler of all.
But then why was?
Why was he down in the cavesfor that long?
You know, he didn't haveambition while he was down there
, or maybe he did and he wasjust trying to keep the ring for
himself, who knows.
But that was a different sideof him for sure.
Jessica (57:24):
Yeah, covening the precious.
I have no problem believingthat.
I just, lord Smeagol and Gollumthe Great really kind of threw
me for a loop a little bit.
So we'll see if there'sanything else like that.
Kritter (57:39):
I just was not expecting it.
So there was another differentside of Smeagol and maybe I'm
just reading too much into it.
But at one point Sam iscomplaining about the smell of
everything.
He's like everything smells,like you smell Smeagol, whatever
, because Smeag was likesniffing the air, I guess was
the context.
And uh, and smiegel repliesthat sam stinks too, essentially
(57:59):
saying poor smiegel smells it,but good, smiegel bears it.
And to me that was like witty,almost, like he was, like he
wasn't just like saying, he waslike jabbing him in like kind of
a witty way, which was notexpected from him either.
Jessica (58:16):
But he's obviously clever to a certain extent.
Because the ring chose him,he's been able to keep it.
Yeah, you know.
So he's clearly not a stupidcharacter by any means.
Kritter (58:30):
Definitely not, Definitely not.
And he keeps showing that nowthat we get to talk to him even
more.
So we got Sam, we got Smeagol.
Let's talk about Frodo.
At one point a ringwraithpasses not far over them and
then we get a bit of Frodo'sperspective.
Frodo can feel an eye on him, ahorrible growing sense of a
(58:54):
hostile will that strove withgreat power to pin you under its
deadly gaze, naked andimmovable.
That sounds pretty terrible.
Jessica (59:10):
Were you glad to get the status check from Frodo,
just at least to the weight thathe's carrying?
And the mention of I with acapital E starts in chapter one,
like right off it's capitalizedUm, so, and then it's kind of
elucidated here is it'sclarified that, yes, no, this is
(59:30):
not just um, just the Paul oftraveling through scary
territory.
He is feeling it like aphysical weight and it is coming
from the ring.
It's referenced a couple oftimes in the reading and then by
the time we get to the end ofchapter two, tolkien's just
telling us point blank like thisis having a physical effect on
him, like additional gravity onhim, like additional gravity, um
(59:58):
.
And that's validating because,as it was mentioned through
chapter one and chapter two, Iwas like is this because of the
ring?
And thanks for the payoff yep,sure is, uh.
Kritter (01:00:06):
So the three stumbled on through the weary end of the
night and until the coming ofanother day of fear, they walked
in silence with bowed heads,seeing nothing and hearing
nothing but the wind hissing intheir ears.
That's the end of the chapter.
Any final thoughts or notes?
Jessica (01:00:22):
before we pick an MVP, I wish that we had started a
Nazgul sighting counter.
Kritter (01:00:35):
So we had a couple of sightings in this read, we did.
Jessica (01:00:39):
And I was like how many times have we seen something
cross the moon?
I wish we had counted.
Kritter (01:00:45):
Yeah, I guess in this read alone it was the like the
thing that inspired Gandalf toflee.
Yeah, three and then one.
Whatever Frodo was likedangling from the the cliff or
down at the bottom of the cliffor something like that.
Like lightning strikes,whatever something crazy happens
.
And then a third time justwhile they're.
Jessica (01:01:03):
And that leaves Gollum on the ground in the fetal
position because he's overdone.
He's like three times can't bean accident, that's right,
that's right.
Kritter (01:01:12):
Wait, so then that would be four from this read,
because it was three with them.
Yeah, three, just for them andthen one for gandalf and pippin
and that crew.
Uh, lots of nazgul sightingsthis time, yeah so anytime a
shape flies over the moon well,for a while there was like is it
an eagle?
Because we we kept gettingeagles there for a bit, um, and
(01:01:34):
now it just feels like it's justNazgul, like we're just getting
the ring race this time.
Yeah, basically.
Jessica (01:01:40):
Okay, so that's it.
Nazgul counter Future self.
Kritter (01:01:44):
Okay, from now on, all right.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (01:02:01):
This episode was hard because I was so excited to have
our boys back, but I'm going togive it up for Gandalf, okay,
and all the lore and savingPippin's silly behind, okay.
You know, having OP Gandalf thewhite back is pretty awesome
(01:02:23):
and I'm not convinced thatPippin would have been okay If
it wasn't for Gandalf beingthere and being able to reason
out what happened with him.
How exposed are they by theinteraction that pimp had had I?
I just I'm like I need to giveit up for gandalf yeah, it was
impressive.
Kritter (01:02:41):
I mean, even at one point pippin was like passed out
or whatever and he like toucheshim on the head or something
and revives him.
So you've got to love a littlehealing spell, yeah, or whatever
.
That was a little jolt ofadrenaline to get him to come
back.
Uh, so that's a respectablechoice.
But let me just say that, foris it the first time this book
(01:03:03):
I'm picking?
Jessica (01:03:04):
something different from you like we have been.
Kritter (01:03:06):
We have been side by side with this, but I think I'm
gonna deviate here.
Okay, I think, for the maybefirst time at all period
throughout this entire podcast,I'm gonna pick frodo as my mvp,
because he kept such a levelhead throughout such terrible
(01:03:32):
circumstances, with the weightof the ring weighing him down.
Um, even though sam wanted toclimb down first, at one point,
frodo took charge because heknew that sam wasn't going to be
able to do it like.
He got, you know, injured, andsam helped him and stuff like
that.
So like props to sam, for sure,but sam also had the like,
(01:03:53):
extreme suspicion and thenegative thoughts.
Frodo, though, had the idea tohave Gollum swear on the ring.
He, he, his choices, got themthrough the dead marshes and
everything, because withoutGollum, no way they would have
made it.
So, just overall, I think Ijust got to give some mad props
(01:04:13):
and respect to Frodo and andjust the realism, right, granted
, he's very despondent, probablybecause of the effect of the
ring and the eye looking alwaysfor him, but just like knowing
that what he's doing probablydoesn't have a path back.
Like he's, he's literally goingto his doom.
I guess that's an interestingway to put it.
(01:04:36):
He's literally approaching doomand he's doing it willingly,
with his eyes wide open.
It's just that.
Is that's a hero right there,even if he's he comes in a small
package.
So, yeah, that's my choice.
Solid, yeah, I feel pretty goodabout it.
Okay, well, let us know in thecomments or on Discord, if
(01:04:58):
you're on my Discord, who youthink the MVP this session is.
You've got Gandalf, you've gotFrodo, you've got Shadowfax.
I actually considered it.
So there's several viableoptions.
If you're more on Team Sam,when it comes to the mean
(01:05:19):
thoughts about Gollum, it couldbe Sam.
He had a rope that also helpedthem out.
It could be Gollum.
If you've got reallyinteresting tastes, whoever it
is, just let us know.
I'm curious.
And also, if more people pickFrodo than pick Gandalf, then I
(01:05:52):
will feel very, very justifiedin my answer.
Not because I'm competitive,it's yes, it's because I'm
competitive, but don't feelcompelled to pick Frodo.
Pick who you think is the realMVP.
We're very curious to hear yourchoice.
Yes, yes, okay.
So read for next week, book four, chapters three through five,
and thank you so much for tuningin to episode five of season
three of.
But are there dragons broughtto you by your host, jessica
sadai, and me, critter xd.
Don't forget to follow us atbut are there dragons on youtube
, instagram and tiktok and butdragons pod?
Just one on X.
(01:06:14):
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
ShelfIndulgence.
That's it for today.
We're workshopping newcatchphrases for season three,
so let us know on social mediahow you feel about this one.
So I'm going to give you alittle backstory on this one.
Jessica found it.
I think it's great, but shesuggested that I should give it
a go, because sometimes I liketo do impressions and I do not
(01:06:36):
have a canned Gollum impression.
So I'm going to do my best.
Please don't make fun of me,but if you do make fun of me, do
it in the comments, becausethat helps with the algorithm.
Okay, let's go.
Jessica (01:06:50):
Follow Smeagol.
Kritter (01:06:51):
He can take you through the marshes.
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