August 6, 2024 • 41 mins
Kritter and Jessica are back and so are Sam and Frodo! The journey continues boldly into Return of the King Book 6 chapters 1 & 2. Sam proves yet again he will do whatever it takes (even make questionable choices) to get to Frodo. But rescuing Frodo is only half the battle (if that, TBH). Our boys start a trek into the perilous Land of Shadow where getting found isn't even the worst outcome!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Return of the King by JRR
Tolkien, with me as the residentLord of the Rings veteran.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And me as a Lord of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me
as the resident Lord of theRings veteran and me as a Lord
of the Rings first timer In thisour fifth episode of season
four.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
we're going to discuss book six, chapters one
and two.
We are finally on book six, sobefore we dive in, Jessica,
what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling Good,enjoying how the read is going?
And life has been pretty hot onthis side of the country, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
We're not that far apart, but I think that it's
probably been pretty hot in yourworld too.
It's very hot.
Yes, I've been an indoor catthese last several days because
it has been warmer.
It's like we're up in mordor atthe, in the very fires of mount
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Are we having sympathy pains for the boys?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
we are.
I think that's exactly what'shappening.
So, yeah, that we just hitaugust, oh, fun news that no one
cares about except for me.
So there's this thing that I doevery year, which is put up a
hummingbird feeder.
Okay, and I've learned since Ihave lived in this current house
that this is my Samwise moment,I guess because he likes
(01:33):
gardens or whatever.
So let's assume this is mygarden, I put up a hummingbird
feeder and ever since I've livedin this house, they've never
come during the normal part ofthe summer, right, they only
ever come in August.
And I told my mom this andwhat's fun is we have this like
(01:54):
nature center near my hometown,that my house, my hometown, and
they do a calendar every year.
So my mom, oftentimes forChristmas, will get us these
calendars and the naturecalendars will have like
relevant nature-y dates, right,yeah?
And so I found out a couple ofyears ago that apparently, in my
neck of the woods, hummingbirdmigration begins in early August
(02:16):
.
So I've discovered that I don'tget normal hummingbird traffic.
I get the migration traffic andI saw my first hummingbird
traffic.
I get the migration traffic andI saw my first hummingbird of
the season just yesterday soamazing.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Everyone be happy for me okay, it was.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
It was a very exciting time because it wasn't
even august yet and I think itwas like august 9th or something
.
That is, it's like thehummingbird migration starts.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So they're a little early this year ahead of the
curve a little bit this time.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, and this is actually also the first time
that I've made my ownhummingbird juice.
I don't know like you boilsugar and water.
Basically, usually I just buyit, but this time I was like, by
god, I've got a lot of sugarfor some reason.
I'm gonna do it.
And I wasn't sure they weregonna be attracted to it because
the feeder is clear and thewater's clear and I wasn't gonna
(03:05):
die it and uh, but they foundit anyway.
So nature anyways, but I don'thave to be outside to watch the
hummingbirds, which is anotherbonus because it's really hot.
So do you have any majortriumphs?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
no, I mean we're still growing grass.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And that is a full-time job.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
We put out patio click and lay decking Nice.
So we have big plans for ourbackyard.
It's ridiculous, but it's astaged approach, so it's going
to take time and a couple ofseasons, a couple of budgets to
get it done out the way that wereally wanted to.
(03:47):
But in the meantime we do have,like these concrete areas which
are handy for having, you know,flat space but doesn't look all
of that great.
And so we found this kind ofcost-effective, click and lay
plastic tile to just make ourbackyard kind of pop, and it
makes us happy, and this weekendwe're picking up an umbrella so
(04:11):
that we can, you know, justreally start enjoying our
backyard, cause, you know, wehaven't had a yard before.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
The oasis is developing slowly, slowly but
surely.
Well, I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Look at us in our outdoor fun things, and I do
feel like Samwise, even though Iam, you know, like a green
thumb dropout I can't.
I have two plants currentlythat are still alive, so I'm
very proud of but I'm learningabout all of this because I've
never had my own dirt.
So I do feel very hobbit, likewhen I do outdoorsy things.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I do feel very Hobbit-like when I do outdoorsy
things Nice.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Look at us.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Look at us and how convenient that you and I are
both talking about Samwiseadjacent things when we are
finally back with our boy Sam.
Finally, let's dive in, shallwe?
Let's go Okay.
Book 6, chapter 1, the Tower ofCirith Ungol.
So, as I said, we are back withFrodo and Sam, or at least Sam.
(05:08):
Since last we saw Frodo, he hadbeen taken and Sam has decided
officially that his duty wasclear Rescue Frodo or perish in
the attempt.
How are we?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
feeling with our boy Sam on the warpath but utterly
alone.
I am obviously very concernedfor his well-being, but I can't
help but point out that I lovehis cheek in this chapter.
So on the on the same breath,practically, of saying you know,
he no longer has any doubtabout his duty, he says, you
know, perishing is more likelyanyway and it'll be a lot easier
(05:48):
anyway.
So there's just a couple ofreal influxes of Sam's humor in
this read that really, you know,make me love him more.
So, even though it is a littleterrifying because he is, you
know, just one hobbit againstall of the amassed powers of
Mordor, it feels like, you know,he's taking it tongue in cheek
(06:12):
and I love him for it.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Every now and then he reminds me of Eeyore, you know
just like.
Well, I'll probably die anyway.
Yeah, it's just so funny.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Might as well get on with it.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
There was a little bit of umami, and I don't know
that I directly quoted it, but Ireally liked it.
It was.
He was in a land of darknesswhere the days of the world
seemed forgotten and where allwho entered were forgotten too.
I just kind of was like, oh,that's a good illustration, I
guess, of kind of how he'sprobably feeling and and how it
(06:47):
is honestly.
Um.
So when we left off, he was inthe tunnel.
Still, he backtracks throughthe tunnels since he decided he
wasn't going to make it to thetower that way.
He was gonna have to wait forthe gate to open, and once he
works his way back out, he takesa breather.
That goes ahead and puts thering on Thoughts about this
(07:08):
choice it was.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
it was absolutely one of those what the what?
Literally like, excuse me.
Uh so, and I feel as thoughit's not even the first time in
our read that this has happenedI feel that a certain someone
else just cavalierly threw thering on like it was no big deal.
Um so, yeah, no, uh, sam isofficially a ring bearer now and
(07:34):
um, wow, yeah, somebody, are wetalking about tom bombadil?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
because he, yes, okay , okay, sam's, sam's giving tom
bobadil in this moment.
Um, I do think it's funny howthat was a moment where he just
like threw caution to the windand then he also heard orcs
fighting amongst themselves inthe tower and he just once again
throws caution to the wind andyells at frodo, I'm coming, mr
frodo, sam, if you're gonna putthe ring on to be invisible,
(08:02):
like why are you screaming?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Shout out your position.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, he's not giving Bilbo no.
Robber genes are coming forthin Sam at this point, which I
thought was pretty hilarious,but nevertheless he heads to the
watchtower, taking off the ringonce he starts to feel this
like I don't know, it's like nolonger appropriate for me to
have this on, as if it wasappropriate before.
(08:29):
And then he catches sight ofOrodruin, the Mountain of Fire
and Kirith Ungol.
He realizes that the Watchtowerof the Orcs was actually once
an outpost of Gondor, but nowit's Sauron's.
Sam doesn't like his odds ofpassing it unseen or going in.
Did you kind of appreciate this?
(08:50):
Like getting the lay of theland the narrator gave us?
You know, look this way, we seethe mountain.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Look this way, there's the tower um, in as much
as I do anything geographically, I really struggle I really
struggle.
It's not as bad as battles, butit's close.
If anything, I alwaysappreciate hearing about
something from Sam Wise'sperspective.
(09:16):
Just because he's not anomniscient author and he's not,
he doesn't carry any of thepreconceptions of the POVs that
we might get from men or elves.
So, that's always interesting tome, Not that it really changed
the flavor here but sometimes itreally does the part that I
(09:36):
loved through this he talksabout the ring's power grew and
it became more fel.
Untameable is the way that herefers to it.
Uh, wild fantasies arose in hismind and the thing that I loved
most is a little bit of umamium, because the the ring was
clearly trying to tempt him withambitious dreams and things in
(10:00):
this.
My quote from this is the onesmall garden of a free gardener
was all his need and do, and Ijust was like buddy.
I just love him so much I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
The temptation was like you can have a galadriel's,
like you would have a queen, inthe sense it's like you would
have a garden, that is an entireland.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, I love that.
It's yeah, and he was perfect.
He just rejected it Like, nah,I'm good, I just need my humble,
humble little abode, I think myfavorite thing.
I'm usually also like ageography, like I don't know
what you're talking about, youknow what I mean.
Like I may look back in themaps to be like what don't know
what you're talking about, youknow what I mean.
Like I may look back in the mapsto be like what and I found
(10:46):
myself doing that more and morein these last few chapters when
they'll like, say, a landmarkjust casually, and then I'm like
which one is kira thungle, youknow?
Like I have to remember, um,things that have names.
I'm terrible with names, butmore than just like what they
are and what they're called.
It was interesting about thetower being like a watch tower
to keep people from leavingmordor.
(11:08):
Um, and it versus entering,versus entering and it.
They noted that that still kindof applied because sauron had
few servants but many slaves offear so it was like whether or
not the geography of it wasrelevant or exciting.
That part was so interestingBecause it's like he's got few
(11:29):
people, if you know any, thatare just devotees, right, people
that are like in it for thecause, but he controls a lot of
people Like.
It's like the orcs, right,they're not very tame because
they're just terrified ofgetting murdered, right, and so
they're doing what.
They're just terrified ofgetting murdered, right, and so
they're doing what they're told,more or less, but their
motivations are cloudy becauseit's not based on love for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And the only humans that we've seen, apart from you
know the mouth, the humans thatwe've seen following them.
You know, throughout the storyhas shown us that he's using
manipulation tactics to ensuretheir participation on his
behalf and that will only getyou just so far and, coming from
that place, he's not going totrust them either and they don't
(12:18):
trust him they're justterrified, um.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
So sam gets up to the tower right.
He faces this temptation.
He rejects it, bless him.
Um, attempting to pass underthe great arch of the tower,
he's stopped by some magicalforce field.
Now, fun fact, I have to notethat as a child I used to think
that it was forest field.
I feel like that's a commonmistake, but I have to admit
(12:45):
that's what I thought.
So not forest field, forcefield.
But he puzzles his way throughit.
Did you appreciate the solution?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I did.
I did so.
The file got a lot more actionhere than what I was expecting.
I don't remember this archpathway, the two watchers piece.
I don't remember any of this.
So, um, yet again saying Ican't wait to watch this movie
and see if there's any nods tothis that I've just missed along
(13:18):
the years, which is fine.
Um, it really did, and I knowyou haven't seen seen it, but
for anybody who listens along orwatches along, that's closer to
my age, maybe it really gave me, um, the never-ending story,
vibes, where they're trying towalk by the sphinx, and if you
go by, if you are pure of heartand intention, you can go by,
(13:41):
and if not you're, you're donefor kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
that's what this gave me for vibes okay, I'm not
familiar with that, but soundssimilar yeah, and so, yes, loved
his uh, his uh, trusty solutionfor getting through this yeah,
same um so it.
He did get through, though, butit set off an alarm, that's
(14:05):
worth noting.
Like just like, just like apeal, you know.
He's like oh shoot, what wasthat?
Were you going?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
to say something else Now.
I've rung the front doorbell.
And I just again like LOL.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Hey, gotta do what you gotta do.
How else is he going to get inthere?
Was that all you had?
Yes, was that all you had?
Yes, okay, great.
So the tower is largelyabandoned.
It's kind of like a little bitof a war zone, but Sam is not
completely free from orcencounters.
Were there any standout momentsfrom his ascent through the
(14:36):
tower?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I thought that it was interesting that he his
appearance to the orc thatcaught him unawares was changed
just by kind of clutching thering, not even wearing the ring,
um, I absolutely attributedthat to him.
Holding on to the ring, yeah,um, and made him scarier.
(15:01):
Uh, I do like that.
He kind of talked himselfthrough this.
I also found myself reminiscingabout our orc names as we go
through this.
I was like, oh, snagbers andGolfgun on the prowl again.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Golfgun.
Yes, what would Sam's work namebe?
We'd have to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
We do have to figure that out.
And then, as he's going throughthis you know he's going
through some really well.
First off, it's physicallydemanding for him to make it up
these stairs and climb to thetop of this tower.
He's tempted again by the ringand that's what he's clutching.
(15:50):
He's still, uh, carrying on theelf warrior storyline, which I
love love that too, I love thatcosplaying as warrior elf yes,
amazing, love that for himwhatever it takes, man, um, and
you know, coming to the endwhere he's overhearing the orcs
(16:10):
talk back and forth and hearingmore of the dissent among the
orcs, which is not new for us,right, like we know that they
have different masters anddifferent motives, um, and it
sounds like, uh, the fit hasreally hit the shan for the orcs
yeah, I was proud of sam duringhis ascent because he like
(16:31):
legitimately decided he heard anorc.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I was like you know what I'm going to confront him
and it was Shagrat.
Right, he's like we're going todo this.
Not that he really had to doanything ultimately, but he made
the decision and I'm proud ofhim for it Super brave.
But at the top he meets a deadend, defeated.
He sits on a step and sings andsomething, maybe for a second,
(17:00):
seems to respond, but anotherorc, snagga, thinks it's frodo
singing or responding andreveals a trap door that sam had
not seen.
Snagga begins to whip frodo andsam just loses it.
How do you feel about thislittle skirmish and sam's
reunion with frodo?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
uh, I think that I found it very relatable, right
he?
Well, earlier in the chapter ithad talked about his love of
Frodo carrying him through tobegin with, and for him to see
his very dear friend that he wastrying so hard to get to, being
whipped and it, you know,sending him into a rage I
absolutely a protective rage, Ican absolutely understand that.
(17:37):
And then being reunited, itjust so precious.
You know, like just the quotehere, the umami here was Sam
felt that he could sit like thatin endless happiness, but it
was not allowed and I feel likethat's a very, that is a
(18:01):
statement that could have morethan one meeting, like a lot of
things with their relationship.
It's complex and it could meanmore than one thing, but it's
just, it's just so beautiful tosee them reunited.
And you know Frodo ishallucinating.
He's like first you were an orcand now you're you, and it's
just so beautiful to see themreunited.
And you know Frodo ishallucinating.
He's like first you were an orcand now you're you, and it's
real.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, Except like Frodo's reaction when he found
out that Sam had the ring right.
That was part of his like orchallucination moment.
How'd we less heartwarming?
How'd we feel about that?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It shows just how far , so I think, of what the ring
is doing to say to frodo as asickness, and it shows a huge
progression and how much thering is negatively affecting
frodo.
Um, that he can't even so hedoes at least.
So that's very golem likebehavior, very much, yeah, very
(18:54):
much so, instant parallels.
You don't even have to draw thelines, but then the mist clears
, right, and then he has regret,honestly, kind of calling back
to Boromir, right, how Boromirwas tempted by the ring and
wanted to take it from him andthen, after getting a solid
(19:15):
knock on the head, was like I'mso sorry, I don't know where
that came from, I apologize, youknow.
Kind of reminiscent of that alittle bit too.
So I mean, I think that speaksto, you know, frodo starting
from a very good at heart placeand so he's able to come back
from that.
But, right, it shows definiteprogression in a very scary way
(19:39):
yeah, it definitely speaks tothe resilience of hobbits.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Right, because it got boromir way before it got frodo
and boromir wasn't evencarrying the ring.
Yeah, um, we have anothermoment of like eeyore.
We have another eeyore momentwhere at one point I think it's
sam, it might have been Frodosaid it's no good worrying about
tomorrow, it probably won'tcome.
I think that's maybe about likethe provisions they were eating
(20:03):
.
They were just trying to likestock up on food and just kind
of like well, whatever, I guessit is what it is.
You guys, we're going to do ourbest, but if it doesn't work
out at this point, it justdoesn't work out Bust their
hearts.
So the two hobbits, properlydisguised because Sam went and
got them disguises they leavethe tower and they once again
(20:26):
use Galadriel's file to greateffect to get past the magic
guards, once again triggering analarm and sending a winged
shape down from the sky.
Siding, siding, and that is theend of the chapter.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Thoughts, thoughts about this last part.
Um, it was, it was intense, itwas crazy.
Um, yeah, and I wish that ithad made it into the movies.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Which part?
Oh, the barrier, the magicbarrier, oh, okay, okay, okay.
I was like what do you mean?
They do kind of go to thethere's a tower, there's a tower
, there is a tower, but notexactly.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, so, and then there was just another one here
here.
So when, when sam leaves frodoin the attic and says I'm going
to go and look for the, he'sgoing to look for disguises, um,
and provisions, um, it talksabout.
Frodo sat for a while andshivered, dreadful fears chasing
one another through his mind,and again just another, uh, very
(21:30):
poetic thing that also showsjust how far along he is.
So that was.
I think that was kind of it forchapter one for me well, and
just imagine the ptsd.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know, like mary and pippin know and now, frodo
knows what it's like to becaptured by orcs and like you're
not supposed to be spoiled.
But schnaga, or whatever hisname was, had no problem
whipping him right, so he wasspoiled in some ways.
So, yeah, you have to feelreally bad for him.
After Sam abandoned him, lefthim once again and he's just
(22:06):
like terrified.
I would be terrified too, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Okay.
Book six, chapter two, land ofShadow.
So frodo and sam flee.
They avoid the nascal hide fromorcs, get stabbed by thorns and
eventually have an outfitchange thoughts on their initial
experience traveling in or onthe outskirts of mordor.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I had the same reaction that they did.
I didn't think anything livinggrew here.
So when they found the thornbushes, I was genuinely
surprised, yeah, but obviouslyit was a crappy way for them to
have to spend any time and superuncomfortable.
I think the big reveal for mehere is that Sam's calling out,
(22:57):
you know?
Oh, and, by the way, gollum'snot dead, right, yeah, so I
guess I didn't really have much.
Obviously, all of this themtrying to make their way and not
get caught, how dangerous thewalk is, and them ending up in
bushes with thorns that feel afoot long somewhere that sounds
(23:20):
terrible too it kind of remindedme of that sequence, like the
beginning sequence, where it'slike they dashed across the
bridge and then they hid next tosome rocks but they had to go
back into the road.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Just briefly, you know.
They were just like running,ducking, diving, dipping,
dodging.
Um, it reminded me a lot of.
Have you seen emperor's newgroove?
Yes, okay, when cronk has theemperor in a sack and he's like,
and he's like trying to escapeor whatever to like dispose of
the body, um, except for he'snot dead spoilers uh, he gives
(23:54):
himself his own theme music.
It's kind of what it reminds meof, because he's like hiding in
the shadows and then dashingacross bridges and whatnot.
Obviously it was lesslight-hearted than that.
That's kind of what it wasgiving for me.
I don't know.
Sometimes I like to entertainmyself.
What can I say?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
not that tolkien's not entertaining me enough um,
yeah, but we can't help the popculture references when they
just pop up in your brain.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
It's true that's what popped up in my brain.
So at one point the lightchanges for frodo and sam in a
somewhat hopeful way.
But the narrator kindly let usknow, to set the scene, that
theoden is laying dying on thePelennor fields at this moment.
So are you grateful for thisparticular temporal calibration.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yes.
So again, every time they dothat.
I'm not always the best atkeeping track.
Apparently, I'm just kind of acrappy reader, right?
No, we all read for differentthings.
We really do, and I am, youknow, I am a fresh audience at
every turn of the page.
No, I really do appreciate thecalibrations because it really
(25:00):
does help me contextually,because every story that I'm
reading, each POV that I'mreading, is my favorite in the
moment, which is so corny, butit's really true, and sometimes
I really do forget where we leftother people off.
True, and sometimes I really doforget where we left other
people off.
So in that moment I was like,oh, oh, okay, so this goes back
to Théoden, this goes back aboutthis far in my read and it
(25:23):
really does help reground me inthe larger story.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I can see what you're saying and I agree.
I do like having the timelineclear.
My biggest gripe with thisparticular temporal calibration
is that the narrator could havetold us that in fact, the Witch
King had just died Very exciting, very happy moment.
That's why the light changed,but instead the narrator's like
(25:52):
King Thad and laid dying, and soit's almost like the light's
different and it's beautiful,but we're still sad and it's not
happy.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
It's so funny that you say that, because my note
wrote another time sink.
Thankfully, this is the daythat Theoden dies at Pelennor.
So does King Ringwraith, btw.
Yeah, so funny that you saidthat.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I could have said that, but instead they're like
no, we're going to get you sadagain.
Sorry, don't be too hopeful.
Eeyore moments left and righthere, okay.
So, miracle of miracles, thetwo of them then find water and
when Sam asks to drink first, Ithought like Frodo for a split
second.
That wasn't very like Sam.
(26:34):
It's like no, let me have itfirst until Sam explains why.
Did this catch you off guardinitially, or were you like oh
yeah, he's gonna test it forpoison uh, it did.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It took me off.
It took me off guard for just ahalf a second.
Then I was like, no, he wantsto make sure it's okay for him
yeah, and Frodo's, like itdoesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, we're gonna die .
We're gonna die.
What, like I thought?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
he.
You know, frodo also had a verygood point.
Like our luck is our luck andour our lot is our lot.
You know we're in it together.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
True, and every time they drink water here I remember
what is it what faramir toldthem?
Like don't drink any water in.
Or like what was it of springsthat come from mordor?
I can't remember exactly whatit was, but I just remember him
saying that and I'm like how dowe know if this water is okay?
But again, words of wisdom fromFrodo.
What are you going to do?
(27:25):
You're going to die of thirst.
No, you're going to drink thewater, even if it's possibly
terrible for you.
So the two stop and rest at onepoint and Frodo falls asleep.
Sam gets a little glimmer ofhope from a white star whose
light broke through the cloudcover A bit of literary umami.
(27:45):
The beauty of it smote hisheart as he looked up out of the
forsaken land and hope returnedto him.
For, like a shaft, clear andcold, the thought pierced him
that in the end, the shadow wasonly a small and passing thing.
There was light and high beauty, forever beyond its reach.
He then falls asleep and frodoand sam wake up together, hand
(28:10):
in hand.
Did this little section giveyou hope or make you feel any
type of way?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Oh, I felt all the things.
So you know, before they cameacross the trickle of water, he
had essentially prayed toGaladriel for water and light.
So they found water, they foundlight and they woke together.
Hand in hand was almost fresh.
(28:36):
So they also, as well asgetting, uh, water and light,
got hope and rest, um, and andso I got uh, I'm gonna choose to
believe that was straight fromcollateral nobody can tell me
otherwise.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Like that it was her a hundred percent uh, our queen,
so that's.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I felt a lot of things about that.
Yeah, because they are inincredibly dire straits and so
she could have sent them themost pure trickle of water, but
it's coming through such atainted land.
That's the best she could dofrom that far away.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
But kept them alive, kept them going, which is all
they needed.
So the hobbits finally make itto an overlook of the inner
plane, still 40 miles from MountDoom, with armies of the enemy
camped in their way.
How are we feeling right now?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
um, I liked that sam wise was like.
But where there are men, thereare provisions so I like a
practical king I think because Idon't think like that.
So I think that if somebody elseis thinking about those things
it makes me feel reassured.
Um, so, yeah, you're gonna.
They are in in dire, direstraits and that is definitely a
(29:57):
theme through this part of theread that at every turn they are
incredibly low on, uh,necessary resources to stay
alive, to finish the track, muchless make it home, just to
finish the day.
Um, so I liked, I liked that, Idid also like.
(30:19):
Strangely, the insight or talksabout, the eye is turned inward
, pondering tides of doubt anddanger, a bright sword and a
stern and kingly face it saw,and for a while it gave little
thought to other things.
And all its great stronghold,gate on gate and tower on tower,
was wrapped in a brooding gloom, so just narratively telling us
(30:44):
that the eye is quite occupiedwith what's going on elsewhere
yeah, this was presumably aroundthe time that aragorn used the
palantir right.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
right, that's what I got out of it, so I'm glad that
you pointed that out, because Ididn't actually put it into my
outline, but it was interesting.
At any given moment, the eye isdoing certain things.
Where's the eye focusing itsattention?
Right, because if it's nototherwise occupied, it's going
to focus its attention on itsown lands, where Frodo and Sam
are.
(31:13):
So Aragorn helps them bydistracting it.
So every time sorry, no, I wasjust.
Eventually, Gandalf distractsit by his plan that he hatched
them going to the Black Gate.
It's just like they everybodydid exactly what they needed to
do to get Frodo and Sam into theend zone, basically.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
And this was another example and this was the first
time I feel like I caught it inthe narrative, like oh, and this
is by design, right like this,is them living up to that and
keeping, uh, keeping sauronoccupied?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
right.
So in their next encounter witha couple of orcs, sam and frodo
overhear that they're activelybeing tracked, like they are
trying.
They're trying to find them, asis gollum, who's apparently
about.
So, as a gollum girly, did thispique your interest?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
it did.
Uh, so they called him theblack sneak, um, the gobbler
with the flapping hands, um, youknow, and just that they don't
really know what to do with himeither.
They were like, no, he was toldto be leave alone.
But how fortunate that theyhave somehow even narrowly
(32:23):
managed to elude these I'massuming they're sniffers like
they're trying to pick up thetrail that Sam and Frodo left
behind.
So a win is a win behind.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So a win is a win right, like a win is a win they
think they lost them whenthey're literally like within
earshot, like, okay that I'lltake that.
Yes, absolutely so.
The hobbits try to find theirway off the roads.
Right, they're not on the roadsat this point, but, having no
luck, they decide they're justgonna have to chance it on the
roads at this point.
(32:55):
But, having no luck, theydecide they're just going to
have to chance it On the roadsor starve, basically.
So on another sleep break, samventures out on his own on a
foraging mission and finds somewater, though on his way back he
sees Gollum lingering aroundFrodo before slinking away.
Sam seems to be getting solucky, finding just what they
(33:15):
need when they need it.
Do you think it is just luck oris there something going on?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
here.
I mean, I still think thatGaladriel is trying to keep an
eye on them.
I don't know, you know, Ireally don't, and I don't
necessarily expect to get thatanswered, but I do feel like
there are forces at work thatare trying to make sure that
they're able to find what theyneed.
Yeah, so that's how I'verationalized.
(33:42):
It is very convenient,especially since Tolkien has
taken the time to painstakinglypoint out that, like, not much
grows in this land and they haveto bring in their own food and
water for troops.
So it's very clear thatforaging is a very difficult
prospect at any time in thisarea.
(34:02):
I'm going to choose to just letit slide.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Plot armor or divine intervention, maybe both.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Maybe both.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Maybe both Okay, so how are you feeling about Gollum
creeping around?
Frodo Worried?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I feel like it was inevitable.
He will not stop until the ringis gone.
I think that it's crazy.
I think that it's crazy thatSam left him to go find water,
not that it wasn't justified.
You can't live without water.
I think that it's crazy.
(34:39):
He got back just in time, butwhatever, another plot armor
slash divine intervention Yep.
I mean it happens.
Plot armor slash, divineintervention, yeah, yeah, uh, I
mean it happens, uh.
And then I go back to what'salready been said, that you know
, uh, there may be more yet forgollum to do yeah, so I guess we
(35:03):
can be happy that he's around,even if it pains me, all right.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
So frodo and sam's worst fears finally come true.
They encounter a band of orcsthey cannot avoid, but instead
of making them as hobbits, theorcs assume they're deserters
and make them march hard formiles, just as their legs are
about to fail them.
Multiple roads and bandsdiverge and frodo and sam crawl
(35:27):
away to a shallow pit and allthe confusion where frodo lays
on the ground like a dead thing.
And that's the end of thechapter and the read thoughts on
this last part or the chaptergenerally, before we pick an mvp
.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
it's still not as bad as it could be right like Like,
yeah, a forced march whenyou're already injured and
depleted and all of that, butyou are still smack dab behind
enemy lines and so being treatedas a deserter and being able to
roll away into a you know, agully is still better than the
(36:03):
alternative, and that is reallysaying something yeah, and this
is honestly kind of bad.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I don't know if it's like the former high school
athlete in me, but it's like youknow.
Maybe they got like fartherthan they would have on their
own during this little passage.
You know that's ruthless.
I I know, I know I know, I know, but I mean, you know, like, I
feel like that's something mybasketball coach would have said
it was really hard, hard, butwas it, you know, it was worth
(36:30):
it.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I'm like is this Tolkien's version of?
But did you die?
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Literally no.
That's exactly it.
Like you're trying to get tothis mountain.
I don't.
I don't know explicitly if thispath led them closer to the
mountain.
I assume it did, because theywere on the path heading, you
know like, and they just gotscooped up onto the troop um but
yeah, it's one of those likewell, did you die?
Though you're getting closer, Iknow I I should never no, but
(36:58):
coach sports not for nothing.
No, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't be like that.
I would not be like like that.
I hated that mentality, but youknow, sometimes it's effective,
unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Brutal but real.
Yeah, yeah, no, that was it.
There was a heart-wrenchingmoment right before they got
scooped up First off.
Did you know, had you heard theterm peaching before?
I don't think so.
You cursed peaching, sneaktheft, sneak thief.
(37:33):
Peaching means snitch, huh.
So I had to look it up, right,because I'm reading and I'm like
I've never seen peach, i-n-g.
I've never seen it as a verb.
Uh-huh, yep.
It means snitching one of theorcs to the other, you cursed
(37:57):
peaching sneak thief, you can'tdo your job and you can't even
stick by your own folk.
Yada, yada, yada, it was.
It was orc on orc violence.
Yeah, so it means snitch justfor your own personal
edification.
And there, after he, there wasonly one other.
(38:21):
No, I've gone too far.
There was a moment where Frodojust winds up telling Sam that
I'll try and be a bit quickerand it just broke my heart.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, it hurts.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Right Like he's literally doing his very best,
and you know I'll try to befaster.
Ugh, just right into the heart.
It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Hurts's terrible.
Yeah, hurts a little, yeah, andI think that was really it for
that chapter.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Okay, so we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP
from the chapters we've read foreach episode.
Cue the music Jessica, whowould you name as your mvp this
episode?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
uh well, critter, sam , sam, sam.
Oh, and did I mention sam?
Speaker 1 (39:18):
yep, you mentioned him, but yep, I agree.
Who else is it gonna be?
You know what I mean.
Like he goes up into the tower,he rescues frodo yeah, he's
finding the water, he's prayingto galadriel, he's giving
everybody hope, like he is doingall the things he is carrying
the operation, without a doubt,and I understand frodo's going
(39:41):
through some stuff, absolutely,but frodo, yeah, he's just not
doing what sam's doing nope, andI sometimes it's really hard.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
This week was a no-brainer for me.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
No hesitation well, it's easy to easier too when
you've got two pov typecharacters right, two main
characters that you're following, granted, likeanted shout out
to Galadriel, because once againthe file coming in clutch.
But Sam sneezy, well, not onlythat, but maybe sending water,
(40:16):
maybe sending light.
Of course, definitely honorablemention to Galadriel, but it's
Sam all the way for me,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Well, so that is it for this week for us.
We would ask that you read, fornext week, book six, chapters
three through five.
We want to say thank you somuch for tuning in to episode
five of season four of but Arethere Dragons, brought to you by
your hosts, jessica Sedai andCritterXD.
(40:45):
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod, just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as Critter XD and
Shelf Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're continuing to workshopnew catchphrases through season
(41:06):
four, so let us know on socialmedia how you feel about this
one.
Well, here goes listeners.
We'll have to leave you for abit, and trust to luck.
See you next week.
Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Return of the King by JRR
Tolkien, with me as the residentLord of the Rings veteran.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And me as a Lord of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me
as the resident Lord of theRings veteran and me as a Lord
of the Rings first timer In thisour fifth episode of season
four.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
we're going to discuss book six, chapters one
and two.
We are finally on book six, sobefore we dive in, Jessica,
what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling Good,enjoying how the read is going?
And life has been pretty hot onthis side of the country, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
We're not that far apart, but I think that it's
probably been pretty hot in yourworld too.
It's very hot.
Yes, I've been an indoor catthese last several days because
it has been warmer.
It's like we're up in mordor atthe, in the very fires of mount
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Are we having sympathy pains for the boys?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
we are.
I think that's exactly what'shappening.
So, yeah, that we just hitaugust, oh, fun news that no one
cares about except for me.
So there's this thing that I doevery year, which is put up a
hummingbird feeder.
Okay, and I've learned since Ihave lived in this current house
that this is my Samwise moment,I guess because he likes
(01:33):
gardens or whatever.
So let's assume this is mygarden, I put up a hummingbird
feeder and ever since I've livedin this house, they've never
come during the normal part ofthe summer, right, they only
ever come in August.
And I told my mom this andwhat's fun is we have this like
(01:54):
nature center near my hometown,that my house, my hometown, and
they do a calendar every year.
So my mom, oftentimes forChristmas, will get us these
calendars and the naturecalendars will have like
relevant nature-y dates, right,yeah?
And so I found out a couple ofyears ago that apparently, in my
neck of the woods, hummingbirdmigration begins in early August
(02:16):
.
So I've discovered that I don'tget normal hummingbird traffic.
I get the migration traffic andI saw my first hummingbird
traffic.
I get the migration traffic andI saw my first hummingbird of
the season just yesterday soamazing.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Everyone be happy for me okay, it was.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
It was a very exciting time because it wasn't
even august yet and I think itwas like august 9th or something
.
That is, it's like thehummingbird migration starts.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So they're a little early this year ahead of the
curve a little bit this time.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, and this is actually also the first time
that I've made my ownhummingbird juice.
I don't know like you boilsugar and water.
Basically, usually I just buyit, but this time I was like, by
god, I've got a lot of sugarfor some reason.
I'm gonna do it.
And I wasn't sure they weregonna be attracted to it because
the feeder is clear and thewater's clear and I wasn't gonna
(03:05):
die it and uh, but they foundit anyway.
So nature anyways, but I don'thave to be outside to watch the
hummingbirds, which is anotherbonus because it's really hot.
So do you have any majortriumphs?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
no, I mean we're still growing grass.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And that is a full-time job.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
We put out patio click and lay decking Nice.
So we have big plans for ourbackyard.
It's ridiculous, but it's astaged approach, so it's going
to take time and a couple ofseasons, a couple of budgets to
get it done out the way that wereally wanted to.
(03:47):
But in the meantime we do have,like these concrete areas which
are handy for having, you know,flat space but doesn't look all
of that great.
And so we found this kind ofcost-effective, click and lay
plastic tile to just make ourbackyard kind of pop, and it
makes us happy, and this weekendwe're picking up an umbrella so
(04:11):
that we can, you know, justreally start enjoying our
backyard, cause, you know, wehaven't had a yard before.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
The oasis is developing slowly, slowly but
surely.
Well, I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Look at us in our outdoor fun things, and I do
feel like Samwise, even though Iam, you know, like a green
thumb dropout I can't.
I have two plants currentlythat are still alive, so I'm
very proud of but I'm learningabout all of this because I've
never had my own dirt.
So I do feel very hobbit, likewhen I do outdoorsy things.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I do feel very Hobbit-like when I do outdoorsy
things Nice.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Look at us.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Look at us and how convenient that you and I are
both talking about Samwiseadjacent things when we are
finally back with our boy Sam.
Finally, let's dive in, shallwe?
Let's go Okay.
Book 6, chapter 1, the Tower ofCirith Ungol.
So, as I said, we are back withFrodo and Sam, or at least Sam.
(05:08):
Since last we saw Frodo, he hadbeen taken and Sam has decided
officially that his duty wasclear Rescue Frodo or perish in
the attempt.
How are we?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
feeling with our boy Sam on the warpath but utterly
alone.
I am obviously very concernedfor his well-being, but I can't
help but point out that I lovehis cheek in this chapter.
So on the on the same breath,practically, of saying you know,
he no longer has any doubtabout his duty, he says, you
know, perishing is more likelyanyway and it'll be a lot easier
(05:48):
anyway.
So there's just a couple ofreal influxes of Sam's humor in
this read that really, you know,make me love him more.
So, even though it is a littleterrifying because he is, you
know, just one hobbit againstall of the amassed powers of
Mordor, it feels like, you know,he's taking it tongue in cheek
(06:12):
and I love him for it.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Every now and then he reminds me of Eeyore, you know
just like.
Well, I'll probably die anyway.
Yeah, it's just so funny.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Might as well get on with it.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
There was a little bit of umami, and I don't know
that I directly quoted it, but Ireally liked it.
It was.
He was in a land of darknesswhere the days of the world
seemed forgotten and where allwho entered were forgotten too.
I just kind of was like, oh,that's a good illustration, I
guess, of kind of how he'sprobably feeling and and how it
(06:47):
is honestly.
Um.
So when we left off, he was inthe tunnel.
Still, he backtracks throughthe tunnels since he decided he
wasn't going to make it to thetower that way.
He was gonna have to wait forthe gate to open, and once he
works his way back out, he takesa breather.
That goes ahead and puts thering on Thoughts about this
(07:08):
choice it was.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
it was absolutely one of those what the what?
Literally like, excuse me.
Uh so, and I feel as thoughit's not even the first time in
our read that this has happenedI feel that a certain someone
else just cavalierly threw thering on like it was no big deal.
Um so, yeah, no, uh, sam isofficially a ring bearer now and
(07:34):
um, wow, yeah, somebody, are wetalking about tom bombadil?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
because he, yes, okay , okay, sam's, sam's giving tom
bobadil in this moment.
Um, I do think it's funny howthat was a moment where he just
like threw caution to the windand then he also heard orcs
fighting amongst themselves inthe tower and he just once again
throws caution to the wind andyells at frodo, I'm coming, mr
frodo, sam, if you're gonna putthe ring on to be invisible,
(08:02):
like why are you screaming?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Shout out your position.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, he's not giving Bilbo no.
Robber genes are coming forthin Sam at this point, which I
thought was pretty hilarious,but nevertheless he heads to the
watchtower, taking off the ringonce he starts to feel this
like I don't know, it's like nolonger appropriate for me to
have this on, as if it wasappropriate before.
(08:29):
And then he catches sight ofOrodruin, the Mountain of Fire
and Kirith Ungol.
He realizes that the Watchtowerof the Orcs was actually once
an outpost of Gondor, but nowit's Sauron's.
Sam doesn't like his odds ofpassing it unseen or going in.
Did you kind of appreciate this?
(08:50):
Like getting the lay of theland the narrator gave us?
You know, look this way, we seethe mountain.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Look this way, there's the tower um, in as much
as I do anything geographically, I really struggle I really
struggle.
It's not as bad as battles, butit's close.
If anything, I alwaysappreciate hearing about
something from Sam Wise'sperspective.
(09:16):
Just because he's not anomniscient author and he's not,
he doesn't carry any of thepreconceptions of the POVs that
we might get from men or elves.
So, that's always interesting tome, Not that it really changed
the flavor here but sometimes itreally does the part that I
(09:36):
loved through this he talksabout the ring's power grew and
it became more fel.
Untameable is the way that herefers to it.
Uh, wild fantasies arose in hismind and the thing that I loved
most is a little bit of umamium, because the the ring was
clearly trying to tempt him withambitious dreams and things in
(10:00):
this.
My quote from this is the onesmall garden of a free gardener
was all his need and do, and Ijust was like buddy.
I just love him so much I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
The temptation was like you can have a galadriel's,
like you would have a queen, inthe sense it's like you would
have a garden, that is an entireland.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, I love that.
It's yeah, and he was perfect.
He just rejected it Like, nah,I'm good, I just need my humble,
humble little abode, I think myfavorite thing.
I'm usually also like ageography, like I don't know
what you're talking about, youknow what I mean.
Like I may look back in themaps to be like what don't know
what you're talking about, youknow what I mean.
Like I may look back in the mapsto be like what and I found
(10:46):
myself doing that more and morein these last few chapters when
they'll like, say, a landmarkjust casually, and then I'm like
which one is kira thungle, youknow?
Like I have to remember, um,things that have names.
I'm terrible with names, butmore than just like what they
are and what they're called.
It was interesting about thetower being like a watch tower
to keep people from leavingmordor.
(11:08):
Um, and it versus entering,versus entering and it.
They noted that that still kindof applied because sauron had
few servants but many slaves offear so it was like whether or
not the geography of it wasrelevant or exciting.
That part was so interestingBecause it's like he's got few
(11:29):
people, if you know any, thatare just devotees, right, people
that are like in it for thecause, but he controls a lot of
people Like.
It's like the orcs, right,they're not very tame because
they're just terrified ofgetting murdered, right, and so
they're doing what.
They're just terrified ofgetting murdered, right, and so
they're doing what they're told,more or less, but their
motivations are cloudy becauseit's not based on love for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And the only humans that we've seen, apart from you
know the mouth, the humans thatwe've seen following them.
You know, throughout the storyhas shown us that he's using
manipulation tactics to ensuretheir participation on his
behalf and that will only getyou just so far and, coming from
that place, he's not going totrust them either and they don't
(12:18):
trust him they're justterrified, um.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
So sam gets up to the tower right.
He faces this temptation.
He rejects it, bless him.
Um, attempting to pass underthe great arch of the tower,
he's stopped by some magicalforce field.
Now, fun fact, I have to notethat as a child I used to think
that it was forest field.
I feel like that's a commonmistake, but I have to admit
(12:45):
that's what I thought.
So not forest field, forcefield.
But he puzzles his way throughit.
Did you appreciate the solution?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I did.
I did so.
The file got a lot more actionhere than what I was expecting.
I don't remember this archpathway, the two watchers piece.
I don't remember any of this.
So, um, yet again saying Ican't wait to watch this movie
and see if there's any nods tothis that I've just missed along
(13:18):
the years, which is fine.
Um, it really did, and I knowyou haven't seen seen it, but
for anybody who listens along orwatches along, that's closer to
my age, maybe it really gave me, um, the never-ending story,
vibes, where they're trying towalk by the sphinx, and if you
go by, if you are pure of heartand intention, you can go by,
(13:41):
and if not you're, you're donefor kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
that's what this gave me for vibes okay, I'm not
familiar with that, but soundssimilar yeah, and so, yes, loved
his uh, his uh, trusty solutionfor getting through this yeah,
same um so it.
He did get through, though, butit set off an alarm, that's
(14:05):
worth noting.
Like just like, just like apeal, you know.
He's like oh shoot, what wasthat?
Were you going?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
to say something else Now.
I've rung the front doorbell.
And I just again like LOL.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Hey, gotta do what you gotta do.
How else is he going to get inthere?
Was that all you had?
Yes, was that all you had?
Yes, okay, great.
So the tower is largelyabandoned.
It's kind of like a little bitof a war zone, but Sam is not
completely free from orcencounters.
Were there any standout momentsfrom his ascent through the
(14:36):
tower?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I thought that it was interesting that he his
appearance to the orc thatcaught him unawares was changed
just by kind of clutching thering, not even wearing the ring,
um, I absolutely attributedthat to him.
Holding on to the ring, yeah,um, and made him scarier.
(15:01):
Uh, I do like that.
He kind of talked himselfthrough this.
I also found myself reminiscingabout our orc names as we go
through this.
I was like, oh, snagbers andGolfgun on the prowl again.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Golfgun.
Yes, what would Sam's work namebe?
We'd have to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
We do have to figure that out.
And then, as he's going throughthis you know he's going
through some really well.
First off, it's physicallydemanding for him to make it up
these stairs and climb to thetop of this tower.
He's tempted again by the ringand that's what he's clutching.
(15:50):
He's still, uh, carrying on theelf warrior storyline, which I
love love that too, I love thatcosplaying as warrior elf yes,
amazing, love that for himwhatever it takes, man, um, and
you know, coming to the endwhere he's overhearing the orcs
(16:10):
talk back and forth and hearingmore of the dissent among the
orcs, which is not new for us,right, like we know that they
have different masters anddifferent motives, um, and it
sounds like, uh, the fit hasreally hit the shan for the orcs
yeah, I was proud of sam duringhis ascent because he like
(16:31):
legitimately decided he heard anorc.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I was like you know what I'm going to confront him
and it was Shagrat.
Right, he's like we're going todo this.
Not that he really had to doanything ultimately, but he made
the decision and I'm proud ofhim for it Super brave.
But at the top he meets a deadend, defeated.
He sits on a step and sings andsomething, maybe for a second,
(17:00):
seems to respond, but anotherorc, snagga, thinks it's frodo
singing or responding andreveals a trap door that sam had
not seen.
Snagga begins to whip frodo andsam just loses it.
How do you feel about thislittle skirmish and sam's
reunion with frodo?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
uh, I think that I found it very relatable, right
he?
Well, earlier in the chapter ithad talked about his love of
Frodo carrying him through tobegin with, and for him to see
his very dear friend that he wastrying so hard to get to, being
whipped and it, you know,sending him into a rage I
absolutely a protective rage, Ican absolutely understand that.
(17:37):
And then being reunited, itjust so precious.
You know, like just the quotehere, the umami here was Sam
felt that he could sit like thatin endless happiness, but it
was not allowed and I feel likethat's a very, that is a
(18:01):
statement that could have morethan one meeting, like a lot of
things with their relationship.
It's complex and it could meanmore than one thing, but it's
just, it's just so beautiful tosee them reunited.
And you know Frodo ishallucinating.
He's like first you were an orcand now you're you, and it's
just so beautiful to see themreunited.
And you know Frodo ishallucinating.
He's like first you were an orcand now you're you, and it's
real.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, Except like Frodo's reaction when he found
out that Sam had the ring right.
That was part of his like orchallucination moment.
How'd we less heartwarming?
How'd we feel about that?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It shows just how far , so I think, of what the ring
is doing to say to frodo as asickness, and it shows a huge
progression and how much thering is negatively affecting
frodo.
Um, that he can't even so hedoes at least.
So that's very golem likebehavior, very much, yeah, very
(18:54):
much so, instant parallels.
You don't even have to draw thelines, but then the mist clears
, right, and then he has regret,honestly, kind of calling back
to Boromir, right, how Boromirwas tempted by the ring and
wanted to take it from him andthen, after getting a solid
(19:15):
knock on the head, was like I'mso sorry, I don't know where
that came from, I apologize, youknow.
Kind of reminiscent of that alittle bit too.
So I mean, I think that speaksto, you know, frodo starting
from a very good at heart placeand so he's able to come back
from that.
But, right, it shows definiteprogression in a very scary way
(19:39):
yeah, it definitely speaks tothe resilience of hobbits.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Right, because it got boromir way before it got frodo
and boromir wasn't evencarrying the ring.
Yeah, um, we have anothermoment of like eeyore.
We have another eeyore momentwhere at one point I think it's
sam, it might have been Frodosaid it's no good worrying about
tomorrow, it probably won'tcome.
I think that's maybe about likethe provisions they were eating
(20:03):
.
They were just trying to likestock up on food and just kind
of like well, whatever, I guessit is what it is.
You guys, we're going to do ourbest, but if it doesn't work
out at this point, it justdoesn't work out Bust their
hearts.
So the two hobbits, properlydisguised because Sam went and
got them disguises they leavethe tower and they once again
(20:26):
use Galadriel's file to greateffect to get past the magic
guards, once again triggering analarm and sending a winged
shape down from the sky.
Siding, siding, and that is theend of the chapter.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Thoughts, thoughts about this last part.
Um, it was, it was intense, itwas crazy.
Um, yeah, and I wish that ithad made it into the movies.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Which part?
Oh, the barrier, the magicbarrier, oh, okay, okay, okay.
I was like what do you mean?
They do kind of go to thethere's a tower, there's a tower
, there is a tower, but notexactly.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, so, and then there was just another one here
here.
So when, when sam leaves frodoin the attic and says I'm going
to go and look for the, he'sgoing to look for disguises, um,
and provisions, um, it talksabout.
Frodo sat for a while andshivered, dreadful fears chasing
one another through his mind,and again just another, uh, very
(21:30):
poetic thing that also showsjust how far along he is.
So that was.
I think that was kind of it forchapter one for me well, and
just imagine the ptsd.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know, like mary and pippin know and now, frodo
knows what it's like to becaptured by orcs and like you're
not supposed to be spoiled.
But schnaga, or whatever hisname was, had no problem
whipping him right, so he wasspoiled in some ways.
So, yeah, you have to feelreally bad for him.
After Sam abandoned him, lefthim once again and he's just
(22:06):
like terrified.
I would be terrified too, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Okay.
Book six, chapter two, land ofShadow.
So frodo and sam flee.
They avoid the nascal hide fromorcs, get stabbed by thorns and
eventually have an outfitchange thoughts on their initial
experience traveling in or onthe outskirts of mordor.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I had the same reaction that they did.
I didn't think anything livinggrew here.
So when they found the thornbushes, I was genuinely
surprised, yeah, but obviouslyit was a crappy way for them to
have to spend any time and superuncomfortable.
I think the big reveal for mehere is that Sam's calling out,
(22:57):
you know?
Oh, and, by the way, gollum'snot dead, right, yeah, so I
guess I didn't really have much.
Obviously, all of this themtrying to make their way and not
get caught, how dangerous thewalk is, and them ending up in
bushes with thorns that feel afoot long somewhere that sounds
(23:20):
terrible too it kind of remindedme of that sequence, like the
beginning sequence, where it'slike they dashed across the
bridge and then they hid next tosome rocks but they had to go
back into the road.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Just briefly, you know.
They were just like running,ducking, diving, dipping,
dodging.
Um, it reminded me a lot of.
Have you seen emperor's newgroove?
Yes, okay, when cronk has theemperor in a sack and he's like,
and he's like trying to escapeor whatever to like dispose of
the body, um, except for he'snot dead spoilers uh, he gives
(23:54):
himself his own theme music.
It's kind of what it reminds meof, because he's like hiding in
the shadows and then dashingacross bridges and whatnot.
Obviously it was lesslight-hearted than that.
That's kind of what it wasgiving for me.
I don't know.
Sometimes I like to entertainmyself.
What can I say?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
not that tolkien's not entertaining me enough um,
yeah, but we can't help the popculture references when they
just pop up in your brain.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
It's true that's what popped up in my brain.
So at one point the lightchanges for frodo and sam in a
somewhat hopeful way.
But the narrator kindly let usknow, to set the scene, that
theoden is laying dying on thePelennor fields at this moment.
So are you grateful for thisparticular temporal calibration.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yes.
So again, every time they dothat.
I'm not always the best atkeeping track.
Apparently, I'm just kind of acrappy reader, right?
No, we all read for differentthings.
We really do, and I am, youknow, I am a fresh audience at
every turn of the page.
No, I really do appreciate thecalibrations because it really
(25:00):
does help me contextually,because every story that I'm
reading, each POV that I'mreading, is my favorite in the
moment, which is so corny, butit's really true, and sometimes
I really do forget where we leftother people off.
True, and sometimes I really doforget where we left other
people off.
So in that moment I was like,oh, oh, okay, so this goes back
to Théoden, this goes back aboutthis far in my read and it
(25:23):
really does help reground me inthe larger story.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I can see what you're saying and I agree.
I do like having the timelineclear.
My biggest gripe with thisparticular temporal calibration
is that the narrator could havetold us that in fact, the Witch
King had just died Very exciting, very happy moment.
That's why the light changed,but instead the narrator's like
(25:52):
King Thad and laid dying, and soit's almost like the light's
different and it's beautiful,but we're still sad and it's not
happy.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
It's so funny that you say that, because my note
wrote another time sink.
Thankfully, this is the daythat Theoden dies at Pelennor.
So does King Ringwraith, btw.
Yeah, so funny that you saidthat.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I could have said that, but instead they're like
no, we're going to get you sadagain.
Sorry, don't be too hopeful.
Eeyore moments left and righthere, okay.
So, miracle of miracles, thetwo of them then find water and
when Sam asks to drink first, Ithought like Frodo for a split
second.
That wasn't very like Sam.
(26:34):
It's like no, let me have itfirst until Sam explains why.
Did this catch you off guardinitially, or were you like oh
yeah, he's gonna test it forpoison uh, it did.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It took me off.
It took me off guard for just ahalf a second.
Then I was like, no, he wantsto make sure it's okay for him
yeah, and Frodo's, like itdoesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, we're gonna die .
We're gonna die.
What, like I thought?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
he.
You know, frodo also had a verygood point.
Like our luck is our luck andour our lot is our lot.
You know we're in it together.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
True, and every time they drink water here I remember
what is it what faramir toldthem?
Like don't drink any water in.
Or like what was it of springsthat come from mordor?
I can't remember exactly whatit was, but I just remember him
saying that and I'm like how dowe know if this water is okay?
But again, words of wisdom fromFrodo.
What are you going to do?
(27:25):
You're going to die of thirst.
No, you're going to drink thewater, even if it's possibly
terrible for you.
So the two stop and rest at onepoint and Frodo falls asleep.
Sam gets a little glimmer ofhope from a white star whose
light broke through the cloudcover A bit of literary umami.
(27:45):
The beauty of it smote hisheart as he looked up out of the
forsaken land and hope returnedto him.
For, like a shaft, clear andcold, the thought pierced him
that in the end, the shadow wasonly a small and passing thing.
There was light and high beauty, forever beyond its reach.
He then falls asleep and frodoand sam wake up together, hand
(28:10):
in hand.
Did this little section giveyou hope or make you feel any
type of way?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Oh, I felt all the things.
So you know, before they cameacross the trickle of water, he
had essentially prayed toGaladriel for water and light.
So they found water, they foundlight and they woke together.
Hand in hand was almost fresh.
(28:36):
So they also, as well asgetting, uh, water and light,
got hope and rest, um, and andso I got uh, I'm gonna choose to
believe that was straight fromcollateral nobody can tell me
otherwise.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Like that it was her a hundred percent uh, our queen,
so that's.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I felt a lot of things about that.
Yeah, because they are inincredibly dire straits and so
she could have sent them themost pure trickle of water, but
it's coming through such atainted land.
That's the best she could dofrom that far away.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
But kept them alive, kept them going, which is all
they needed.
So the hobbits finally make itto an overlook of the inner
plane, still 40 miles from MountDoom, with armies of the enemy
camped in their way.
How are we feeling right now?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
um, I liked that sam wise was like.
But where there are men, thereare provisions so I like a
practical king I think because Idon't think like that.
So I think that if somebody elseis thinking about those things
it makes me feel reassured.
Um, so, yeah, you're gonna.
They are in in dire, direstraits and that is definitely a
(29:57):
theme through this part of theread that at every turn they are
incredibly low on, uh,necessary resources to stay
alive, to finish the track, muchless make it home, just to
finish the day.
Um, so I liked, I liked that, Idid also like.
(30:19):
Strangely, the insight or talksabout, the eye is turned inward
, pondering tides of doubt anddanger, a bright sword and a
stern and kingly face it saw,and for a while it gave little
thought to other things.
And all its great stronghold,gate on gate and tower on tower,
was wrapped in a brooding gloom, so just narratively telling us
(30:44):
that the eye is quite occupiedwith what's going on elsewhere
yeah, this was presumably aroundthe time that aragorn used the
palantir right.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
right, that's what I got out of it, so I'm glad that
you pointed that out, because Ididn't actually put it into my
outline, but it was interesting.
At any given moment, the eye isdoing certain things.
Where's the eye focusing itsattention?
Right, because if it's nototherwise occupied, it's going
to focus its attention on itsown lands, where Frodo and Sam
are.
(31:13):
So Aragorn helps them bydistracting it.
So every time sorry, no, I wasjust.
Eventually, Gandalf distractsit by his plan that he hatched
them going to the Black Gate.
It's just like they everybodydid exactly what they needed to
do to get Frodo and Sam into theend zone, basically.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
And this was another example and this was the first
time I feel like I caught it inthe narrative, like oh, and this
is by design, right like this,is them living up to that and
keeping, uh, keeping sauronoccupied?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
right.
So in their next encounter witha couple of orcs, sam and frodo
overhear that they're activelybeing tracked, like they are
trying.
They're trying to find them, asis gollum, who's apparently
about.
So, as a gollum girly, did thispique your interest?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
it did.
Uh, so they called him theblack sneak, um, the gobbler
with the flapping hands, um, youknow, and just that they don't
really know what to do with himeither.
They were like, no, he was toldto be leave alone.
But how fortunate that theyhave somehow even narrowly
(32:23):
managed to elude these I'massuming they're sniffers like
they're trying to pick up thetrail that Sam and Frodo left
behind.
So a win is a win behind.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So a win is a win right, like a win is a win they
think they lost them whenthey're literally like within
earshot, like, okay that I'lltake that.
Yes, absolutely so.
The hobbits try to find theirway off the roads.
Right, they're not on the roadsat this point, but, having no
luck, they decide they're justgonna have to chance it on the
roads at this point.
(32:55):
But, having no luck, theydecide they're just going to
have to chance it On the roadsor starve, basically.
So on another sleep break, samventures out on his own on a
foraging mission and finds somewater, though on his way back he
sees Gollum lingering aroundFrodo before slinking away.
Sam seems to be getting solucky, finding just what they
(33:15):
need when they need it.
Do you think it is just luck oris there something going on?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
here.
I mean, I still think thatGaladriel is trying to keep an
eye on them.
I don't know, you know, Ireally don't, and I don't
necessarily expect to get thatanswered, but I do feel like
there are forces at work thatare trying to make sure that
they're able to find what theyneed.
Yeah, so that's how I'verationalized.
(33:42):
It is very convenient,especially since Tolkien has
taken the time to painstakinglypoint out that, like, not much
grows in this land and they haveto bring in their own food and
water for troops.
So it's very clear thatforaging is a very difficult
prospect at any time in thisarea.
(34:02):
I'm going to choose to just letit slide.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Plot armor or divine intervention, maybe both.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Maybe both.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Maybe both Okay, so how are you feeling about Gollum
creeping around?
Frodo Worried?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I feel like it was inevitable.
He will not stop until the ringis gone.
I think that it's crazy.
I think that it's crazy thatSam left him to go find water,
not that it wasn't justified.
You can't live without water.
I think that it's crazy.
(34:39):
He got back just in time, butwhatever, another plot armor
slash divine intervention Yep.
I mean it happens.
Plot armor slash, divineintervention, yeah, yeah, uh, I
mean it happens, uh.
And then I go back to what'salready been said, that you know
, uh, there may be more yet forgollum to do yeah, so I guess we
(35:03):
can be happy that he's around,even if it pains me, all right.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
So frodo and sam's worst fears finally come true.
They encounter a band of orcsthey cannot avoid, but instead
of making them as hobbits, theorcs assume they're deserters
and make them march hard formiles, just as their legs are
about to fail them.
Multiple roads and bandsdiverge and frodo and sam crawl
(35:27):
away to a shallow pit and allthe confusion where frodo lays
on the ground like a dead thing.
And that's the end of thechapter and the read thoughts on
this last part or the chaptergenerally, before we pick an mvp
.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
it's still not as bad as it could be right like Like,
yeah, a forced march whenyou're already injured and
depleted and all of that, butyou are still smack dab behind
enemy lines and so being treatedas a deserter and being able to
roll away into a you know, agully is still better than the
(36:03):
alternative, and that is reallysaying something yeah, and this
is honestly kind of bad.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I don't know if it's like the former high school
athlete in me, but it's like youknow.
Maybe they got like fartherthan they would have on their
own during this little passage.
You know that's ruthless.
I I know, I know I know, I know, but I mean, you know, like, I
feel like that's something mybasketball coach would have said
it was really hard, hard, butwas it, you know, it was worth
(36:30):
it.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I'm like is this Tolkien's version of?
But did you die?
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Literally no.
That's exactly it.
Like you're trying to get tothis mountain.
I don't.
I don't know explicitly if thispath led them closer to the
mountain.
I assume it did, because theywere on the path heading, you
know like, and they just gotscooped up onto the troop um but
yeah, it's one of those likewell, did you die?
Though you're getting closer, Iknow I I should never no, but
(36:58):
coach sports not for nothing.
No, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't be like that.
I would not be like like that.
I hated that mentality, but youknow, sometimes it's effective,
unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Brutal but real.
Yeah, yeah, no, that was it.
There was a heart-wrenchingmoment right before they got
scooped up First off.
Did you know, had you heard theterm peaching before?
I don't think so.
You cursed peaching, sneaktheft, sneak thief.
(37:33):
Peaching means snitch, huh.
So I had to look it up, right,because I'm reading and I'm like
I've never seen peach, i-n-g.
I've never seen it as a verb.
Uh-huh, yep.
It means snitching one of theorcs to the other, you cursed
(37:57):
peaching sneak thief, you can'tdo your job and you can't even
stick by your own folk.
Yada, yada, yada, it was.
It was orc on orc violence.
Yeah, so it means snitch justfor your own personal
edification.
And there, after he, there wasonly one other.
(38:21):
No, I've gone too far.
There was a moment where Frodojust winds up telling Sam that
I'll try and be a bit quickerand it just broke my heart.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, it hurts.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Right Like he's literally doing his very best,
and you know I'll try to befaster.
Ugh, just right into the heart.
It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Hurts's terrible.
Yeah, hurts a little, yeah, andI think that was really it for
that chapter.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Okay, so we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP
from the chapters we've read foreach episode.
Cue the music Jessica, whowould you name as your mvp this
episode?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
uh well, critter, sam , sam, sam.
Oh, and did I mention sam?
Speaker 1 (39:18):
yep, you mentioned him, but yep, I agree.
Who else is it gonna be?
You know what I mean.
Like he goes up into the tower,he rescues frodo yeah, he's
finding the water, he's prayingto galadriel, he's giving
everybody hope, like he is doingall the things he is carrying
the operation, without a doubt,and I understand frodo's going
(39:41):
through some stuff, absolutely,but frodo, yeah, he's just not
doing what sam's doing nope, andI sometimes it's really hard.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
This week was a no-brainer for me.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
No hesitation well, it's easy to easier too when
you've got two pov typecharacters right, two main
characters that you're following, granted, likeanted shout out
to Galadriel, because once againthe file coming in clutch.
But Sam sneezy, well, not onlythat, but maybe sending water,
(40:16):
maybe sending light.
Of course, definitely honorablemention to Galadriel, but it's
Sam all the way for me,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Well, so that is it for this week for us.
We would ask that you read, fornext week, book six, chapters
three through five.
We want to say thank you somuch for tuning in to episode
five of season four of but Arethere Dragons, brought to you by
your hosts, jessica Sedai andCritterXD.
(40:45):
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod, just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as Critter XD and
Shelf Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're continuing to workshopnew catchphrases through season
(41:06):
four, so let us know on socialmedia how you feel about this
one.
Well, here goes listeners.
We'll have to leave you for abit, and trust to luck.
See you next week.
Bye.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.