August 13, 2024 • 62 mins
Jessica and Kritter take on Book 6 chapters 3 through 5. And what a doozy of a read! Our boys make it to Mount Doom (finally!). We also get to see a softer side to Eowyn (thank you, Faramir) and Aragorn fully step into his regal destiny.
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
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Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess.
Kritter (00:19):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Return
of the King by JRR Tolkien, withme as the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran and me as a Lordof the Rings first timer In this
our sixth episode of seasonfour.
We're going to discuss book six, chapters three through five.
But before we dive in, what'snew with you, jessica, how are
(00:40):
you feeling?
Jessica (00:47):
you, Jessica, how are you feeling?
I'm good.
I'm good.
I can't believe that August ishere and this summer, this whole
year honestly has flown by.
So I'm good, I'm ready for timeto just ease up just a little
bit, but not the read.
I'm all in on the read.
How about you?
Kritter (01:08):
all in on the read.
How about you?
Um, like, can't say.
I agree that I want time toslow down a little.
I've been, I've been pregnantthis whole year pretty much, and
so you know that is coming toan end sort of soon, um, but it
would be.
You know, things are gettingmore and more uncomfortable.
So I think I would just, youknow, like, let time pass at a
normal rate and then we'll havethe little guy here and it'll be
(01:30):
great.
So I don't have to be giganticand hot, okay, for longer than I
need to be, basically.
So, yeah, that's where I'm at,but yeah, it is nice the read.
It feels like we're so close.
It feels weird we're gettingreally, really close to being
(01:50):
done with the trilogy.
Jessica (01:53):
Yeah, tonight's read is specifically like a big deal.
Kritter (01:57):
Yeah, it's like a big deal, yeah, so let's get into it
.
Jessica (02:01):
Let's get into it.
Kritter (02:02):
All right.
Book six, chapter three Maldum.
Hmm, I wonder Maldum.
Hmm, I wonder what that couldbe.
Do you think this is the mostintimidating chapter heading yet
?
Jessica (02:13):
Yes, the only.
So I think that folks wholisten to us or watch us are
probably aware by now that Idon't look ahead, I don't even
look at chapter names, that Idon't look ahead, I don't even
look at chapter names.
But this is only the secondtime in four books that I've
looked and seen the chaptertitle and went I know what we're
doing, the only other timebeing Riddles in the Dark way,
(02:36):
way back in the Hobbit.
So when I saw this chapterheading when we finished last
week's read, I was like oh, oh,my god, it's here, we're here uh
, yeah, I mean, we've beentraveling around mordor so you
know, gotta get there some point.
Kritter (02:53):
yeah, and here we are.
So sam has a bit of an epiphanyat the beginning of this
chapter that there really is nogoing back, he is going to die,
but from that somehow hestrengthens, turning into some
creature of stone and steel thatneither despair nor weariness,
(03:13):
nor endless barren miles couldsubdue.
How are you feeling at thispoint About Sam, about all of it
?
Jessica (03:22):
I loved.
I actually quoted it because Ithought it was umami, never for
long had hoped, died in hisstaunch heart, and always until
now, he had taken some thoughtfor their return.
But the bitter truth came hometo him at last.
At best their provisions wouldtake them to their goal, and
when the task was done therethey would come to an end alone,
(03:43):
houseless, foodless, in themidst of terrible desert.
There could be no return.
So I I thought that it was verypoetic, uh, secondly, alone,
houseless and foodless is a veryhobbit way to describe a very
dire set of circumstances.
so true and just very much.
(04:05):
Points out, like you said, thatit really drilled it home for
him and then my, immediately,almost in the same breath.
Well, if that is the job, thenI must do it, the indomitable
spirit of a hobbit, yep, youknow.
Kritter (04:23):
I love it.
You gotta respect it.
You have to respect it.
Uh, so the hobbits?
They slowly and painfully maketheir way to the mountain,
eventually shedding theirdisguises after frodo gets to
the point that he can't go on,but refuses to let sam carry the
ring for him.
Frodo describes his state asnaked in the dark, with no veil
(04:45):
between him and the wheel offire.
So do you think Tolkiensucceeded at making the sound
like the worst hike in thehistory of ever?
Jessica (04:55):
uh, I mean, he didn't help hiking's cause in any way.
Um, that's for sure.
Uh, I thought that I I do thinkthat their track is incredible.
Um, I think that the sheddingof layers of clothes is also
very symbolic, right, like theyare, um, stripping down to bare
(05:20):
bones.
Uh, and it it all to Sam beingsad.
The hardest thing for him toleave behind was his cookware
you know, but I think that it'sincredibly symbolic of all the
things you leave behind when youhave a single minded purpose,
and you, you know this is.
This is what it takes to crossthis finish line.
It's incredible, it's justincredible, just incredible.
(05:45):
And and the visualization forfrodo of just seeing the ring of
fire.
This is at least the secondtime this is the first of
several times throughout thisparticular block of reading,
where it talks about how frodocan't remember good things.
He's lost memories of thingsthat are tangible and real and
(06:09):
positive, from their, theirbackground, whether it's Sam
going oh, do you remember thewine spring?
Or do you remember this, or doyou remember that?
And he's like I remembernothing, it is just the ring, um
, and it's just, it'sheart-wrenching, it's
heart-wrenching for Frodo.
Kritter (06:28):
So I was wondering if you remember this part from the
movies right, and I'll give youthe visual that actually is
paralleled really well from thebooks to the movies, where
Frodo's like batting awayinvisible things in front of him
as he's walking right Clutchingthe ring.
If you remember this part fromthe movies when they're
approaching Mount Doom, how doyou think it compares to the
(06:49):
book?
Jessica (06:51):
I think that it's terrific because I think, that
it's two very different mediums,but it evokes the same sense of
he's in a different reality.
Almost.
The writing definitelyindicates that there is a veil
between those two worlds, andthat veil is essentially gone
for Frodo, and so he is reactingto stimuli that are not
(07:17):
necessarily in this world.
Kritter (07:19):
Yeah, yeah, I think I agree, like when I was reading
some of this, as I said, likehim, like batting away nothing,
you know, like him, themshedding their clothes, like it
felt very, almost like beat forbeat, granted their time in
Mordor in total definitely feelslonger in the books, which you
know, of course they're gonna,they have to, they have to
(07:40):
shorten things and, oh, and, Iwent to the Lord of the Rings
the musical.
I forgot to mention this, butanyways, I went to Lord of the
Rings the musical and theyshortened it even more.
You know what I mean, becauseyou're you're doing so.
Three books in a play, two hours, two and a half hours.
So obviously the movies havemore time.
Yeah, the movies had more timeto work with, but still the
(08:02):
books they feel like if thebooks do anything that the
movies don't do, when it comesto the time in Mordor, it's just
hammering home how terrible itis there and how brutal and how
long the journey had to go.
Still, even once they got intoMordor, right, 40 miles at one
point, and that was after theyhad already traveled a ways so
(08:25):
far and had already been throughso much.
Yeah, yeah, so it's.
I think they depicted it verywell, but I think the books made
it even worse In the way theymade it seem even worse, which
makes sense.
So, on the last day of thejourney, frodo is at the true
end of his strength, but samsteps up.
(08:48):
I can't carry it for you, but Ican carry you and it as well.
I literally just like kind of alittle bit, um yeah, I
definitely cried when I read itthere.
Jessica (09:00):
This part, this last, this last half of the book I I'm
going to cry a lot.
That's what I know.
Kritter (09:07):
So he carries Frodo finding the burden far lighter
than he could have imagined.
So how are we feeling about thesequence?
Where do you think Sam'sstrength came from?
Or was Frodo truly that light?
Jessica (09:21):
I think it's both.
I think that everything isburned away, right.
I think that the physical tollthat it took on him to make this
trek, the physical toll ofcarrying the ring and just the
(09:41):
shedding of everything, right,like they have been going
through this and you know, formonths and months on end to one
extent or another, but you know,this most recent stretch is
like several weeks of unendingyeah, yeah, it's crazy Misery.
(10:02):
So, yeah, my words are failingme a little bit.
It's crazy.
So, yeah, my words are failingme a little bit.
So I think that he is, you know, as gaunt as you can imagine a
hobbit to be and still be ahobbit, yeah, and that also the
(10:29):
reading indicates that thelembas bread, when you eat only
the lembas bread, it makes youstronger of sinew, and when you
don't dilute it with other food.
So you know they had gottenthrough the last of.
You know sam had foraged thelast of the provisions that had
been with the things taken fromfear, theramere from him, from
their trek with theramere, andthey still had some lembas bread
provisions and so they havemoved on to just Lembas and the
(10:49):
Lembas is kind of fortifying himin that way.
Kritter (10:53):
So once again the elves coming in clutch yes.
Jessica (10:56):
But I, when he said you know it was you know I'm
paraphrasing terribly it was, itwas scary how easy it was for
him to carry him.
I was like, oh, oh god, I knowso bad.
Kritter (11:08):
I loved how sam carried frodo, just like a really great
distance, and when frodo thankshim and asks him how much
farther, sam's like I have noidea.
Like where are we going?
I don't know.
Like why are you asking me this?
He's just literally in it.
You know no thoughts, just andI love him for that?
Jessica (11:30):
I don't know, but I love that it's an honest answer
you know so if it doesn't happenon the page, it didn't happen,
right?
So, yeah, neither sam nor frodoreally kind of know their
actual destination, so for youto ask him, well, nobody's
plugged it into GPS yet, wedon't actually know.
Kritter (11:52):
We're doing our best out here.
We're just mozzie.
Jessica (11:54):
Literally just doing our best, you guys.
There was another thing thathappened right before that,
though, which kind of stuck outto me.
That though, which kind ofstuck out to me.
Um, samwise has a little debatewith himself about how things
are going and everything, and Igot I got some golem vibes from
(12:15):
it, and I know that that's not areal yeah, okay, okay, I know I
know what you're talking aboutnow, but okay so he's like he
could not sleep and held adebate with himself.
Well, come now, we've donebetter than you hoped, began
well anyway.
I reckon we crossed half thatdistance and it continues on,
and I was like.
(12:35):
I feel like this very innocuousconversation is indicative of
the toll that this is taking onSam.
A lot of attention is drawn tohow terrible this is as a whole
and how negatively it'simpacting Frodo, and we're all
(12:56):
focused on the fact that Sam iscarrying Frodo's weight and
helping him achieve this goal,and all of that is true, but
also like there is an emotionaltoll to this for Sam, wise as
well, that we just don't reallyever talk about.
Kritter (13:16):
He's not really got any conversation companions anymore
.
Frodo's lost and it's just him,so why not have a conversation
with himself, a la gollum and um, yeah, bless his heart.
So frodo is increasingly,increasingly burdened like just
terrible, but is eventuallyknocked from sam's grip by you
(13:41):
know who.
Gollum has returned.
As Gollum and Frodo are lockedin battle, sam perceives them as
something not entirelythemselves Gollum, a crouching,
ruined, defeated shadow.
Frodo, a figure robed in whiteholding at its breast a wheel of
fire.
And out of the wheel comes acommanding voice Be gone and
(14:04):
trouble me no more.
If you touch me ever again, youshall be cast yourself into the
fire of doom.
Where do you think that camefrom?
Jessica (14:16):
I have no idea, but I highlighted the whole thing.
Kritter (14:19):
That was wild Because I was like whoa Like is Sauron
like speaking through Frododohere?
It was not giving frodo I don'tknow.
Jessica (14:29):
It definitely wasn't giving frodo.
I didn't go to sauron, I did um.
So my wheel of time is showingand I was like, is this a call
back to a previous, previousreincarnation of this fight in
previous ages?
But I like I said it's veryWheel of Time and I'm like I'm
(14:51):
in the wrong IP, but stillthat's how it felt for me.
I had no idea what to make ofthis and it's all brand new
information to me.
So I, just, like I said, Ihighlighted the crap out of all
of it and I went what does thatmean?
Kritter (15:08):
Literally like well you know, maybe it's not Sauron,
maybe it's just the ring, maybeit's you know, because the
ring's getting real wily here atthe end in Mordor.
Or is it Frodo defending theone thing that he is?
Oh my God, is it the ring,right?
I just thought of that just now.
Jessica (15:29):
Be gone and trouble me no more.
If you touch me ever again, youshall be cast yourself into the
fire of doom.
Yeah.
Kritter (15:39):
Was it the ring?
Was it the ring that?
Okay new, that's my new theory,because it's not giving Frodo,
it's not.
Jessica (15:48):
I'm like I don't understand being robed in white.
Kritter (15:53):
Yeah, but the flaming, you know circle, this flaming
wheel, I don't know, I don'tknow.
I guess, if you're listening,like, let us know, where did
this come from?
Jessica (16:04):
is this?
No, but spoiler.
Bar the crap out of that,because, yeah, I don't want to
know until I'm ready to knowwell, fair enough, okay, yeah,
so anyways, theories, thoughts,um, we love theories, we do love
theories.
Kritter (16:17):
So frodo continues up the mountain and sam faces
gollum, sword in hand.
But now, after everything, whensam has every reason to end
gollum once and for all, hetakes pity on him and lets him
go.
How do you feel about thisdecision?
Jessica (16:37):
I'm so proud of sam.
His mind was hot with wrath andthe memory of evil.
Like every I thought of thiswhole time.
The constant grudge againstGollum, Granted not unwarranted
right Like, but every negativecomment, distasteful.
(17:00):
Look, all of that was like abank account that was just
accumulating, accumulated,accumulating, accumulating.
Like all of that negativity isjust building and when it comes
down to it, he, he stays hishand, he, he finds empathy in
the last moment I agree.
Kritter (17:21):
Like it hurt me you know, because I've been not team
gollum that like it did, itmade it made me think like,
would I have done the same?
Unclear, but good for sam, veryproud of sam, especially
because we have heard frodo sayit, gandalf say it.
He may yet have a part to playright, and so I don't know to
what level Sam was thinking that.
(17:43):
Probably not at all.
I think Sam just finallyrelated to Gollum just enough,
having carried the ring for justlong enough that he understood
to some extent what Gollum hadgone through, and that was
enough for him to take pity onhim.
Which I just love sam so much.
(18:04):
I don't like he is, likeeverything I wish I was and like
everyone was.
Jessica (18:10):
You know he should, he should be aspired to, everybody
should want to be like sam, andI choose to believe that he got
there on his own right becausefrodo and gandalf uh, both
directly and indirectly, had hadmade the case for empathy and
staying your hand and provide,you know, being um merciful
(18:32):
towards gollum, and he seemedvery unmoved every time that
conversation came up.
So I choose to believe that inthese moments, that in this
moment he got there on his own,which is twice the reward, yeah.
Kritter (18:47):
Sam wise for real.
He got there.
We love him for it.
So Sam then followed Frodo andfound him at the end of a tunnel
boring into the mountain and atthe edge of the chasm, at the
brink of doom.
But there Frodo announced in aclear voice that he was not
going to do his appointed taskand he put on the ring.
(19:12):
Moment golem returned, knockingsam out, and sauron realized
his folly, recognizing hisdeadly peril and the thread upon
which his doom now hung.
How is this for a climax?
This is amazing, so it was.
Jessica (19:34):
I think that it was incredibly well represented on
the screen Don't get me wrong,but reading it, and I was like I
could see in my head all of thering rays going yeah.
And again this read has shown methat you know, all of that
(19:57):
misdirection and diversion was,you know, part and parcel for
the plan and but also thebackstory of not understanding
that.
I think that Gandalf explainedit to us at one point never in
the world would it have occurredto Sauron to destroy the ring
because it's too valuable to todestroy in in his estimation.
(20:19):
So he never would have occurredtoon to destroy the ring
because it's too valuable todestroy in his estimation, so he
never would have occurred tohim to destroy the ring.
So all of those pieces lumpedtogether make this reveal that
much more awesome.
Like in that moment he isreally completely taken unawares
, and it is awesome.
Kritter (20:37):
Yeah, outsmarted you, buddy.
So there, yeah I.
But but it's not over yet.
Gollum and frodo grapple, andgollum manages to bite the ring
from frodo's finger.
In his elation, though, hestumbles off the edge into the
chasm and all hell breaks loose.
(20:59):
So we did not get a heroovercoming the corruption of the
ring in the end.
Instead, the ring goes downafter a series of unfortunate
events and a happy accident.
How do you feel about that?
Jessica (21:14):
uh, I, uh, I the Gollum stan wants to feel good about
it that he inadvertently, withhis last act, did something
incredibly kind to the world.
Kritter (21:32):
Okay, Can something accidental be kind?
You know, kind to me impliesintent okay, so not kind, but
beneficial.
Jessica (21:43):
Sure, absolutely, yeah, sure, um, I'll take the
distinction um in that I I dokind of go back to our smog
conversation about how it wasn'tthe hero winning the day.
It was a whole nother set ofcircumstances that actually won
(22:05):
the day.
So I feel parallels there.
So I think it's incredible thatthe ring made it in, knowing
all of the things that wereworking against that moment.
But it's definitely not thetypical, you know, hero saves
the day in the traditional sensethat somebody might expect.
Kritter (22:28):
Not traditional.
Jessica (22:29):
We didn't not get a hero right, we still have many
heroes, many heroes hero.
Kritter (22:39):
Right, we still have a here.
We still have many heroes, manyheroes, and in this case, I
think the heroes are closer inproximity to the ultimate
victory than in the hobbit.
Yes, it's in the hobbit.
We meet somebody and then it'slike, oh, that's the guy who's
actually gonna save and kill thebad guy.
Right, this was definitely morelike okay, sam and frodo teed
this up, but also so did Gandalfand Aragorn, and everybody had
(23:01):
to do their part in this to makeit happen.
So we got heroes, but it wasjust that very last part for me
where it's like Frodo refused.
He did the same thing thatIsildur did, essentially, but
Gollum was there to thwart him,essentially, and that's why we
finally got the ring destroyed.
Jessica (23:20):
And his last wail of precious, and then he's gone.
Kritter (23:22):
I was just like well played.
Jessica (23:24):
Tolkien Well played.
Kritter (23:26):
In my notes I just say the Nazgul just dissolve, lol.
They're like on their way andthen, you know, the starts
exploding every like the towersstart crumbling, whatever they
just describe.
The nascal is like kind of justdissolving, so nice, get out of
(23:47):
here.
Um, so then sam carries frodofrom the cavern and immediately
laments the hand that gollum hadmade.
He seems so fixated on thishand.
Uh, frodo notes that the questis achieved, all is over, and
he's happy to have sam therewith him at the end of all
things.
And that's where the chapterends and thoughts before we move
(24:09):
on uh, just, there was oneother quote right before that.
Jessica (24:15):
Well, this is the end, sam gamgee.
And there was frodo, pale andworn, and yet himself again in
his eyes, there was peace now,neither strain of will, nor
madness or any fear.
His burden was take away.
There was the dear master ofthe sweet days in the shire, and
I just, I loved that the reliefhaving a burden lifted.
Kritter (24:35):
Yeah it, it was beautiful.
It felt good, even though youknow they.
They think they're going to die.
I think it's the end.
Jessica (24:43):
Um, but at the end he gets to be himself Right, which
is perfect, which is definitelysomething yeah.
Kritter (24:51):
Okay, Book six, chapter four, the field of core Malin.
So we are back with Aragorn andGandalf.
We're hopping around a littlebit POV time as the eagles
arrive.
So you remember that point intime.
Jessica (25:05):
Pippin's buried under a troll.
Kritter (25:10):
Eagles are arriving, the Nazgul flee being called to
another task.
So we can assume Sighting.
Oh, sighting, true, another one, one, even though they've
already dissolved.
But we're back in time, sowhatever.
Uh, so as saron's attentionturns to frodo in the mountain,
his armies lose their drive.
And then, when the ring isdestroyed, the armies flee.
(25:30):
This is how, I believe, tolkiendescribed saron's presence in
this moment.
Tell me if you took it anotherway.
Black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of
shadow, impenetrable,lightning-crowned, filling all
the sky.
Enormous.
(25:50):
It reared above the world andstretched out towards them, a
vast threatening hand.
Terrible but impotent, for evenas it leaned over them, a great
wind took it and it was allblown away and passed.
So was that, sauron, for you?
Jessica (26:07):
It was.
I hope that's right, that'swhat I thought.
Kritter (26:11):
I mean, that's what I took that it wasn't explicit,
but to me I'm like, yeah, that Isee that that's kind of awesome
.
Jessica (26:17):
Nothing in the read indicates that Sauron had a form
, right like everything, was himacting through others and he
has a mouth, and he has the ringand an eye, yes, and I some
kind of metaphorical eye,perhaps in the, in the books,
whereas it's more physical inthe movies um, so yeah, no, I
(26:39):
totally took this as sauron okay, pretty, pretty epic.
Kritter (26:44):
I love that.
It leans out a vast threateninghand terrible and then, but
impotent, and then just blowsaway.
Love it, bye, bye.
So g Gandalf immediately asksGwaihir and his eagle friends to
bear him on a task.
Right, gandalf is focused andGwaihir is happy to oblige, as
(27:06):
Frodo and Sam are convinced.
Their time is up and Sam wisheshe could hear the tales that
would be told about ninefingered Frodo and the Ring of
Doom.
Gwaihir appears on the horizonand sweeps down with his fellow
eagles to bear them away.
So Gandalf finally gets tocatch up with Frodo and Sam,
like we suspected he wanted todo when Faramir told him he'd
(27:28):
seen him, at least I suspected.
Satisfying resolution.
Or would it have been betterfor the story if Sam and Frodo
had made the ultimate sacrifice?
Jessica (27:41):
No, I'm never going to vote for that.
Okay, no Fair.
I'm way too attached to myhobbits.
I'm like no, just no.
I think they gave up enough.
I really do, as much as I dounderstand that trope and why
some writers really prefer it.
Um, I know they gave up enough.
Kritter (28:05):
I'm a happy endings girly person, like I want you
know.
You hear Sam thinking aboutRosie, cotton and the Shire.
You hear Frodo talking about,like all of his.
You know Bilbo and everything.
You don't want that to just bedone like be gone.
Jessica (28:20):
Well, and even Gandalf and Gwaihir rescuing them, two
small dark figures forlorn handin hand upon a little hill.
Yes, I want them to be saved.
Save them.
Yes, save them, dear God.
Kritter (28:35):
I agree, I completely agree.
I just know some people arelike, oh yeah, well, what's the
point if no one dies?
Boromir died, that's all weneed.
Sorry, sorry, den thor died,who, honestly?
Who cares?
But like we, oh, they died.
They didn't did die, so thatwas a good one.
People died, it was that enough?
(28:55):
People died.
Um, okay, so sam wakes up in abed in Ithilien this is another
place that I had to be like what?
Where Gandalf at his side, tohis amazement, because, remember
, they still thought Gandalf wasdead.
Frodo also nearby, teasing himfor sleeping in.
So I'm not going to lie, I wasreally defensive for Sam at this
(29:18):
point, like that boy deserved arest.
Okay, so how do you feel aboutthis reunion with Gandalf?
Jessica (29:25):
So this felt like the flip of what happened when they
went to Rivendell, right?
So it was Frodo abed, andSamwise has been loyally by his
side.
I don't know if you can hear it.
We've got some excellentthunder happening.
Kritter (29:38):
I heard I just faint, you can hear it We've got some
excellent thunder happening.
I just faintly, I heardsomething yeah.
Jessica (29:42):
So I think that it's a great flip of that that now it
is Frodo waiting tentatively,attentively for Sam to awaken.
So, yes, I do think that it'sfun loving and that he totally
deserves rest, but I think thatthat's what that was about.
(30:03):
So, this whole scene definitelygave me vibes of the waking up
in Revendell scene and the Bilbogoodbye tour in the Hobbit,
honestly.
So there was a lot of thatgoing on for me in the last half
of this read okay, yeah, I cantotally see that.
Kritter (30:24):
Yeah, uh.
So frodo and sam are led tomeet with the king and, it turns
out a bit of a ceremony wasprepared for them.
They are praised with greatpraise, even by aragorn, who
kneels before them and placesthem on the throne.
A bard also sings them a taleof frodo, of the nine fingers
(30:46):
and the ring of doom, and samweeps with happiness having
gotten everything he wanted.
Any highlights from thiscelebration?
Jessica (30:56):
um, I still can't get over the fact that Aragorn is a
healer, so they reference thatAragorn is the king, healed you
and now awaits for you.
The other thing there were twoother again really throwaway
comments.
One a little bit more somberAragorn's talking and he says it
(31:17):
is a long way, is it not, fromBree, where you did not like the
look of me, and a long way forus all.
But yours has been the darkestroad.
And then, sam, they are broughtback their raiment and his
elven cloak was all healed ofthe soils and hurt that it had
suffered so like.
(31:38):
It means nothing.
Right, their cloaks meannothing, just the way that it
was worded I thought was awesome.
Kritter (31:45):
Well, and I mean the first statement that you said
didn't mean nothing, right, theacknowledgement that they went
through more than anybody.
Jessica (31:52):
And they had the darkest path.
Kritter (31:54):
They had the darkest path.
Like, yeah, everybody had arough time, obviously they had
the darkest path.
Like, yeah, everybody had arough time, obviously.
But Frodo and Sam, the factthat these two little hobbits
are getting mad props from themost powerful politically at
least man in Middle-earth Good,they deserved it, they earned it
.
So, as you said, sam and Frodoare clothed in their more proper
clothes, frodo taking Stingback at Sam's insistence, and
(32:18):
they head to a feast wherethey're reunited with Merry and
Pippin.
At one point we find outbecause Gimli makes sure
everyone knows that he was theone to find Pippin buried under
the enemy on the battlefield.
Do you find Gimli to be alittle overly boastful, or is
the way he is just about right?
Jessica (32:41):
overly boastful, or is the way he is just about right?
I mean, he probably is right,but I just attributed it to his
dwarvish nature.
Kritter (32:46):
He's a proud dwarf.
Jessica (32:47):
I kind of have the same thing, yeah I'm like porqué no
lodos, right, like both thingscan be true, he's boastful, but
he's a dwarf, so it's fine.
It's funny just like they, Justlike they were more
materialistic.
Again, when you makegeneralizations it can rub
people the wrong way, but Ithink that also Gimli is beyond
(33:11):
what I would consider a standardissue.
Dwarf right Like Gimli is a warhero in his own right and has
seen some stuff and who respectselves right so these.
Kritter (33:25):
His horizons have been broadened.
He just still has some of thoselittle dwarfy tendencies, and
dwarves are just gonna dwarfevery time he does.
It makes me laugh.
Yes, never forget, I was theone that found you.
I'll never forget what a hobbitfoot looks like, just like such
a good.
Jessica (33:42):
He's so funny and such a random thing to find.
You know, like you know, youjust like picked him out of a
pile.
I mean, of course you did sureyou did.
Kritter (33:51):
Uh, so legolas also keeps talking about the sea,
which makes me sad, but I'm alsokind of happy for him.
I guess, I don't know, I'm tornabout that.
We'll see where that goes.
He's just very wistful at thispoint, um, and then the armies
eventually head back to minastirith via ship.
And that's the end of thechapter.
Jessica (34:11):
Thoughts before we move on uh, I did like the fact that
mary and I are we are Knightsof the city and of the mark, as
I hope you observe.
Uh.
Kritter (34:20):
I thought that was just a little bit of snark.
Jessica (34:24):
I liked it.
Um, and then there was justagain, just this little brief
snippet of all of them getting achance to sit and just swap
stories, um, and that vibe wasexactly right.
Uh, finally have the remainingmembers of the fellowship
together and able to talk aboutwhat their individual, how they
(34:48):
got to where they are, um and it.
You know it's just a paragraph,but I loved it because I loved
the mental image that it gave me.
Yeah.
It's nice Reunited and it feelsso good, basically okay, uh,
yeah, and they were talkingabout the city of men, of gondor
, last memory of the westernessthat had passed through the
(35:09):
darkness and fire to a new daywe're getting hope, it's giving,
it's giving hope, it's givinghope and i's giving hope and I
dig it Same.
Kritter (35:19):
So book six, chapter five the Steward and the King.
So we go back in time again tojust after Aragorn and his host
left for the Black Gate and weremet with Lady Eowyn chafing
against the walls of the Housesof Healing.
She learns that Faramir is thenew steward by rights and seeks
him out, hoping he'll releaseher.
(35:40):
How did you feel about thisinitial conversation between
Eowyn and Faramir?
Jessica (35:45):
So I'm going to say that it's really really hard for
me to go on the record with ananti-female sentiment, but I
don't like Eowyn much in thischapter.
Already like right out of thegate, right out of the gate.
This started off on the wrongfoot with me, so I do understand
(36:07):
that.
You know she is a shield maiden.
She's a warrior at heart andthis is and she feels, and and
that's not, uh, the thesentiments that she's expressing
are not gender specific, right?
Any warrior that goes intobattle and thinks they're going
to die is then faced with thetrauma afterwards of now I've
lived.
Now what, right?
Like that's not.
(36:29):
I don't begrudge her that, buteverything about the way that
this was framed, I guess, justrubbed me the wrong way.
I cannot lie in sloth, idle andcaged, and I just was like it's
not lazy to be resting.
We're healing, healing, yeah,yeah, like I don't have, I have
(36:49):
not died, and battle still goeson and I'm like I wouldn't like
this, even if it were a malecharacter saying it.
So she's entitled to thosefeelings.
I just, for whatever reason, Istarted off on a really wrong
foot and then I would have youcommand this warden and bid him
let me go, she said.
But though her words were stillproud, her heart faltered and
for the first time she doubtedherself.
(37:10):
She guessed this tall man, bothstern and gentle, might think
her merely wayward, like a childthat has not the firmness of
mind to go on with a dull taskto the end.
And when I read that I'm likebut you are you are being
wayward and you have just gainedsome self-awareness.
(37:31):
Embrace it.
Awareness is a very importantfirst step.
So it could, because then thatdevolves it.
You know that's her speech toFaramir when she's asking you
know, and I do love the factthat she says you know, I'm not,
it's not for want of care, thehouses of healing are taking
(37:51):
excellent care of me, but it'sbecause of this, of this um, and
so when he counsels her, thatyou know, our lot is essentially
patience and the front linecould find us very soon.
Kritter (38:06):
um, you know she devolves into well, but my room
doesn't face eastward oh, so wasthat a little, uh, childish
also for you, or were you likeoh yeah, okay, yeah, no, you
didn't like that.
Jessica (38:23):
So again we have so few female characters that I don't
and maybe I'm just having arough day right Like, maybe
Eowyn is just not my jam in thismoment because I loved her
heart and fervor on the fieldbut outside of combat I seem to
have taken issue with her alittle bit, Just a little whiny
(38:47):
this time.
Yeah, and I just like our otherheroes.
She has been through somethingincredibly traumatic and has all
of this to go with.
But I'm like why is yourbehavior, for some reason,
really grating on me?
I'm sure it says more about methan it does about Eowyn.
Kritter (39:07):
Eowyn and Faramir have the same situation and Faramir
is handling it much better.
So I think that's fair to belike.
You need to get it together.
I think it is funny, though,because two episodes ago, you
kind of predict this right,because when aragorn was like,
uh, what was it?
Mary, mary can, mary can take awalk, like mary can do
basically whatever he wants.
(39:28):
Uh, but aoin and faramir, theyneed to stay in the house of
healing for 10 days, and yousaid, if I recall, something
along the lines of because theymight not because they might
decide they need to go, get outand do stupid stuff.
Jessica (39:41):
Whereas Mary is smart enough to stay, stay put.
Kritter (39:44):
That's an out here and it's like, yeah, I want to, I
want to follow the companythat's going to the black gate
like days after.
Yeah, no, girlfriend, what areyou doing?
Jessica (39:53):
So the flip side of that to soften that criticism is
that I do very much likeFaramir in this section and I do
like the effect through thischapter that Faramir has on
Eowyn, that he softens her andoffers her a different
perspective that she willactually listen to.
(40:15):
Because, as we know, aragorn andTheodenoden maybe not Theoden,
but definitely Aragorn tried tooffer her a different
perspective, and she was notwilling to receive that message,
whereas this time, with Faramir, does seem to connect with her
a little bit more yeah, so Ithought in their first
conversation it was really funnybecause he like very
(40:37):
respectfully drops some majorhints that he's into her.
Kritter (40:42):
And they literally, in this first conversation, fly
over her head.
She does not respond in the waythat you would like.
I'm being hit on, so I'm goingto respond.
No, she just doesn't evennotice.
But then, eventually, as yousaid, time passes, eowyn and
Faramir grow closer, walking thegarden together, waiting for
news, until, finally, one day,they observe what we know to be
(41:04):
the destruction of Sauron, andthey receive the good tidings.
Faramir takes on a stewardshiprole to prepare for the coming
of the king, and Eowyn fallsback into apparent despair.
Finally, faramir confronts herand asks whether she loves him.
Her response is complicated.
(41:26):
This is.
This, though, is the mostblatant romance plot we've
gotten in these books how, howis it working for you, or how
did it work for you?
Jessica (41:37):
Once.
Once Faramir broached the topicI was in.
I'm into it because I feel likehe is saying he is using his
high level of perception to callit out.
He's saying the quiet parts outloud, right.
He's like you wanted somebodyelse to love you.
(41:57):
He has gone to battle.
He, you know your love isunreciprocated, but I tell you
plainly that you know I love you, yeah.
And she volleys back with Idon't want anybody's pity.
I'm like it's still great.
It's a little bit.
I'm sorry.
Kritter (42:13):
No, honestly, her reaction like she's like I did
want him to love me, but now Idon't want anybody's pity.
It's like now what are yousaying?
Jessica (42:21):
Yeah, and I mean I don't know if you noticed, but
like he's a catch dude.
Kritter (42:27):
Oh my God, jump on this opportunity.
What are you?
Jessica (42:30):
doing the heart wants what the heart wants.
But aragorn was very clearlynot reciprocating.
Um, and and faramir, and thesemoments, I, I, I was glad that
they were saying the quiet partsout loud.
I guess I'm I don't want totalk in circles, but I thought
that it was good.
Um, I, when he tells me thathe's doing romance, I, I see it.
(42:54):
Um, I think that before it wasjust a little too subtle for me
uh-huh, uh-huh, and I do.
Kritter (43:01):
I like faramir man, I love this guy he really knows he
knows that eowyn was in lovewith somebody else, right, he
knows that she's kind of a toughnut to crack here and he gives
her this speech even when she'slike I don't want to be pitied
by anyone.
He gives her this speech.
That's like I don't pity you atall, like I think that you're
incredible.
Um, and basically, with hiswise, incredible, loving words,
(43:27):
he warms her heart and heals itand she, she becomes better.
Right, she changes, she changesher ways, she knows what she
wants.
Like it worked for me, I don'tknow.
It's like, especially because,especially because I don't chalk
up her like childishness orwhatever to her being a woman, I
I would like to attribute it tohow much she was going through.
(43:50):
Right, she had witnessedThéoden die, she had.
She was definitely under thewhat do they call it?
The black sickness or whatever.
Jessica (43:55):
Yeah, the black shadow.
Kritter (43:57):
Yeah, something like that.
Like she she of all people wasthe most burdened by it.
Right, she was the one whodealt the final blow.
Her sword was there, like shedid it all.
Um, so she has every right tobe traumatized and not in a good
place, and that's kind of why Igave her a little bit of a pass
.
Um, and the fact that fair amirbrought her out of it just felt
(44:17):
really romantic to me thatmeans that love heals all fair,
amir heals her exactly I knowthat and it makes him kind of
kingly right, because the handsof this king, or the hands of
the healer, I don't know, Idon't know.
So, okay, aragorn and hiscompany finally arrive and
faramir announces him with many,many titles I'm going to say
(44:41):
them momentarily.
And I will ask which do youthink are the coolest or stand
out the most to you?
Okay, okay.
Aragorn, son of erathorn,chieftain of the dunedain of
honor, captain of the host ofthe west, bearer of the star of
the north, wielder of the sword,reforged, victorious in battle,
(45:05):
whose hands bring healing, the,the Elfstone.
Elessar, of the line ofValandil, isildur's son,
elendil's, son of Numenor thatlast part is all kind of
clustered.
Basically it's just his lineage.
Jessica (45:20):
Bearer of the Star of the North.
Kritter (45:23):
Okay, so that one caught your attention.
Do you?
You don't.
We don't know what that is.
That's why I caught yourattention, yeah I looked funny
you should ask I looked it upbecause I was like wait, that
didn't happen in this book,right, it didn't.
No, did you look it up?
Jessica (45:43):
no, okay, just checking no, no, I'm gonna finish this
series strong man good, okay, sowe've got a mysterious title.
Yes, do you want to know theones I was able to work out?
Kritter (45:57):
do you want to know where you can find the answer to
what?
Jessica (46:01):
that is well so.
Star of the north ishyperlinked, so I bet I could go
to my thing and find out.
Oh, I just mean like the book,is it in silmarillion?
It's not, is it in this book?
Kritter (46:18):
no biscuits.
It's in the book of lost tales.
I know it well.
It might be in the silmarillion, but whenever I looked it up it
was like this is something thatwe find out in the book of Lost
Tales.
Jessica (46:31):
Okay, well, since that's not a book we've agreed
to read, yes, please.
I would love to know the storyon the Star of the North.
Kritter (46:38):
So it's let's see, I'm going to do my best here.
It's basically Ellen Deals.
It's like this hold on, I'mgoing to look.
I'm just going to look it upbecause I don't want to get it
wrong.
Jessica (46:49):
Star of the North.
The overwhelming urge to clickon the hyperlink now and see
where it takes me.
But I'm not gonna.
Kritter (46:56):
Gotta be careful.
Elendil Myr was the name of theStar of Elendil or the Star of
the North Kingdom, a greatgemstone that seemed to burn
with an inner light mounted on aslender chain of mithril.
To burn with an inner light.
Mounted on a slender chain ofmithril, it became a token of
royalty throughout the kingdomof Arnor, having been the first
crafted and presented to theHigh King of Gondor of Arnor.
(47:18):
Elendil the Tall, I won't saywe find out in the sorry
Unfinished Tales, not the Bookof Lost Tales.
We find out in Unfinished Talesthat Aragorn found the
Elendilmere in the Tower ofOrthanc.
So after Sauron's defeat,aragorn, with the help of Gimli,
finds a hidden door and a steelcabinet in which they discover
(47:41):
a small golden tube without anyinscription, containing the
original Elendilmere.
Jessica (47:48):
That's wild, I know, so he only wears it on special
occasions.
Kritter (47:50):
The original Elendilmir .
That's wild, I know.
So he only wears it on specialoccasions.
And yeah, I'm so glad that youpointed that out.
Jessica (47:58):
Wait, wait, wait.
When does he go on that quest?
Kritter (48:01):
Whenever they're.
Jessica (48:03):
Sauron just got defeated.
Kritter (48:06):
You're right, so how can he?
Jessica (48:09):
already have that title .
Kritter (48:10):
Wow, how can he have that?
Aragorn finds the originalElendilmir in the Tower of
Orthanc.
After Sauron's defeat, he goesto Orthanc.
Jessica (48:22):
Now I need a map because now I'm like how far
away is Orthanc?
You know, this is time pastright.
Kritter (48:35):
They waited until May to go into the city.
It doesn't matter, they go toorthonk.
Well, never mind, um it's okaymaybe see.
The thing in the book, though,is he is described as wearing a
gem on his forehead, and so tome, I thought that's the ellen
deal.
That's this what we're talkingabout ellen deal mirror the
(48:55):
ellen.
But maybe it's not, maybe theyjust are calling him that
because that's like a title thatthey give you know, kings from
the line of ellen deal, and thenhe eventually goes and recovers
it.
But I swear in this book theydid describe him as wearing a
gem on his forehead.
So now I'm like, okay, is there?
Do we have a continuity issue?
I know we have some major lord.
(49:16):
I'm sure that's not true.
I know we have some major lordof the rings.
People like in our discord.
Jessica (49:21):
Plus year old story like it's okay but I want to
know I know now I want to knowall the things, but I I got to
finish this story first.
Kritter (49:31):
You're right, sorry about any other story.
Any of you people know what'sgoing on here.
The bearer of the star of theNorth.
When did he get it?
When did he go to Orthak?
How did he find it?
Let us know.
Jessica (49:42):
Okay, I'm like, do we phone a friend?
Do we reach out to our fun Lordof the Rings friends who are
better at obscure stuff, likeDawn or Mary, maybe, maybe I'll
make a TikTok about this andjust be like, explain this and
invite what's happening andinvite, yeah, maybe that Tolkien
, that German Tolkien guy, couldtell us.
Kritter (50:01):
Yeah, somebody's going to tell us the mystery will be
solved.
Jessica (50:05):
And.
Kritter (50:05):
I'm sure I could probably like do the research,
but who wants to do that?
Jessica (50:31):
No, I'm kidding, I might do the research after this
.
All right, so when it came timefor Aragorn to put the crown on
, that, faramir had recoveredfor him.
He asked that Frodo be itsbearer and that Gandalf be the
one to crown him, because he wasthe mover of all that was
accomplished and it was hisvictory.
First of all, yes, agreed, butdid this make you feel any type
of way that it was incrediblysmart?
I don't think that.
I don't think that any of themwould have faulted him for doing
it another way, but it speaksto his character that he wanted
(50:54):
to do this in a way thathighlighted those that had
helped all of them get to thispoint.
Kritter (51:02):
He is a.
He is a level-headed guy, Likehe's fair, he is a just dude, in
my opinion.
Speaking of Aragorn gavefaramir ethelian to be his
princedom and passed judgmentwith respect to baragon's crime
assigning him to faramir's guard.
How are you feeling so farabout aragorn the king?
Jessica (51:23):
I think we kind of just touched on that.
I dig it, I absolutely dig it.
I think that, um, that it isjust right, right, like he can't
stay in Minas Tirith because ofthe things that happened, but,
um, he found a way to honor theum intent of the law, um,
without punishing Baragond forultimately doing the right thing
(51:47):
wishing Baragond for ultimatelydoing the right thing.
Kritter (51:53):
Yeah, and can I just say and this will apply for like
many things that we find outhere later in this chapter and
future chapters but Tolkien, heloves tying up loose ends.
He's a loose end king Likenever, ever did any like you
know.
End and let people guess whathappens next couldn't be told.
There's no such ending on likefor the fun.
(52:15):
You know the end of the story.
There's no, there's no guessing.
He's not going to leave youwondering about anybody.
So far that's what it seemslike.
So, though the people of rohandeparted to get their fares in
order, affairs in order, aragornasked the fellowship to stay in
minas tirith a while.
Frodo starts to get a littleresin order Affairs in order,
Aragorn asked the Fellowship tostay in Minas Tirith a while.
Frodo starts to get a littleantsy.
But Gandalf reminds him that ithad been less than a year since
(52:36):
he'd set out from the Shire.
It feels wild to me that all ofthat happened in less than a
year, but also not wild, becauseTolkien kept filling us in on
the timeline as we talked about.
Jessica (52:58):
How did?
That little knowledge bomb lessthan a year hit you.
I had the same thing where Iwas like what can't be, but also
I guess, yeah, I guess.
So you know he did tell usalong the way.
But that's why I had thatmoment just earlier in this
episode where I was like it'sreally only been a few weeks on
this particular part of the trekand I'm like a lot has happened
in this book, a lot hashappened across the trilogy less
than a year?
Kritter (53:16):
absolutely crazy.
Um, so then gandalf, kind oflike, takes aragorn off into the
wild and he has a heart toheart with him, letting him know
that the third age had passedand the fourth age would be an
age of men.
He lets him know that, alongwith the elder kindred, he would
also be departing, for he wasthe enemy of Sauron capital E
(53:41):
and his work was finished.
He also points out to Aragornthat in that hidden place was a
sapling from the line of theeldest of trees, the same kind
of tree that had withered in thecourtyard of Minas Tirith.
Any thoughts about this convo?
Jessica (53:57):
I thought it was wild that Gandalf's entire destiny
was tied to his opposition ofSauron.
So it was complete news to methat he was done in the world
because Sauron was done in theworld.
So that was a big piece ofknowledge to kind of wrap myself
(54:17):
around.
And of course there's a magictree and of course there's one
just hanging out in the back 40.
Kritter (54:25):
Yeah.
Jessica (54:27):
Why would there not?
Kritter (54:28):
be.
Yeah, I mean the other one'sdead, so he's gotta have a king
tree but you know, aragorn isnothing if not a child of
prophecy.
Jessica (54:39):
So it you know, it feels accurate that you know,
once he comes into his own andreclaims his kingdom, that the
tree would present itself to him.
Kritter (54:50):
Yeah, I agree.
I will say that this is.
I'm going to briefly, like very, very briefly, talk about Rings
of Power.
So when I read this part, thisenemy of Sauron with a capital E
, I thought that it lent itselfto the stranger being gandalf,
(55:11):
because, you know, we stilldon't know who he is.
Season two hasn't started, um,and I've heard, maybe he's a
blue wizard, because we don'tknow anything about the blue
wizards and they went off intothe wild and whatever.
But this to me, because therings of power is so focused on
saauron and his rise, right.
It just felt.
It felt very much like okaywell, if there's an enemy of
(55:34):
Sauron, you would think that hewould kind of at least be
somewhat involved in Sauron'sbeginning, right?
Sure, and so that's part of meis like okay well.
Jessica (55:46):
I've always thought it was Gandalf.
Kritter (55:47):
You've always thought it was Gandalf.
Of course it's like aself-fulfilling, you know, like,
oh, I'm so right.
Jessica (55:52):
But also, you know if the stories, you know if the
source material links the twoinextricably.
There's a lot to be said forthat.
Kritter (56:02):
Why would it not be?
That's what I'm saying.
So anyways, official prediction, slightly backed up by the text
, pretty excited about it.
Um, all right, so we end thechapter.
A host of elves, includinggaladriel, kelleborn,
glorifindil, elrond and arwen,show up.
It was the day aragorn had beenwaiting for.
(56:23):
Aragorn and arwen married onmidsummer's Day.
Thoughts on this last part ofthe chapter generally, before we
pick an MVP.
Jessica (56:34):
Did anybody ask Arwen if she wanted to get married?
Kritter (56:38):
What I mean?
She can't.
What do you mean, I guess, yeah, we don't know anything about
her.
Jessica (56:43):
So again, arwen hasn't even spoken on the page.
She wrote a note.
She did.
Kritter (56:52):
Or wait, did she write a?
Jessica (56:52):
note, or did she pass?
Kritter (56:53):
a message.
Jessica (56:54):
Yeah, she passed a message with the banner that she
stitched for him.
Kritter (56:59):
Yeah, that's the most talking that she's done.
Jessica (57:03):
She doesn't actually talk.
Yeah, and I'm like, did Elrondjust bring her and hand her over
, like as?
I guess was want to do incertain societies.
Um, so yeah, I I want to besuper excited about this.
I have yet to know if arweneven likes aragorn.
(57:27):
Okay, sorry, I hadn't eventhought about, I made him a cool
banner, I know, but like I'm soenamored with with the Arwen
Aragorn love story how it wasportrayed in the movies and I
have gotten none of that, yeah,so I hope that there's.
(57:48):
There's a love that transcendstime.
I just would like to see it alittle bit before it's over yeah
, the musical did better with ittoo.
Kritter (57:59):
They played up the romance more.
Also she spoke.
Jessica (58:02):
She had some good songs , even so you know not to end on
a cranky note, but I was likehey, that's okay I hope she
consented, that's all we canonly assume or hope, hope and
assume, okay.
Kritter (58:18):
So we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp
from the chapters we've read foreach episode.
Cue the music j Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (58:31):
So I'm going to say once again, sam, this time
though most notably for his actof empathy and compassion for
Gollum, which not only savedhimself but saved Frodo, because
(58:52):
without it Frodo would havegone all the way to the dark
side and it would have beenheartbreaking and awful.
So he saved himself and hisvery dear friend Frodo and
ultimately saved the whole world.
Yep, his very dear friend Frodoand and that, and ultimately
saved the whole world.
Kritter (59:13):
Yep.
Jessica (59:14):
Because Gollum's actions are what made the ring
finally be addressed.
So it's Sam for me all the way.
Kritter (59:23):
A thousand times.
Yes, I agree with you, ahundred thousand percent.
Not only that, which is huge,huge him overcoming his hatred
for golem and finding mercy inhis heart, wild, incredible
statement like testament to hisjust amazingness he also I can't
carry it for you, but I cancarry you, I just I love that
(59:46):
part so much.
He literally carries the worldon his back in these chapters.
And so, not just giving meletting Gollum go free and then
having that be ultimately thereason that the ring goes into
the fire, but like, ringwouldn't been near the fire If
Sam hadn't taken that, takenFrodo and just done what needed
(01:00:08):
to be done.
Right, that epiphany.
I'm not coming back from this,but it doesn't matter, I've got
to do this.
This is my task, like I loveSam so much.
Jessica (01:00:21):
All the other undying love things too.
You know that I can't carry it,but I can carry you.
All of those things go withoutsaying.
But you know, know for likeproof on the page like these are
my reasons.
Kritter (01:00:33):
Like sure, aragorn, very just.
King Faramir, lovable, likeromantic, incredible, Gandalf,
wise, you know, everybody hasseveral people have some really
solid chapters, but Sam has thechapter and that's yeah, that's
yeah.
So if you, uh, those of you outthere, if you want to weigh in
(01:00:54):
on who you think the mvp is,because, yeah, we only have one
like primary sam and frodochapter here out of the three,
so it really could be.
I mean so I I wouldn't besurprised.
Save the whole world, it did.
I wouldn't be surprised if someof you all picked gollum,
though, because I can't trustyou.
Jessica (01:01:10):
I thought about it, but ultimately it was Sam's choice.
Kritter (01:01:17):
It was yeah, because without Sam, gollum would be
Well, technically, sam wouldhave been the one killing Gollum
, but without Sam's choice,gollum could have been dead, and
so that wouldn't have happened.
Right, it was all Sam.
Sam was the one, but if youpick Gollum, more power to you,
I guess.
I'm curious, I'm very curious.
Comments on YouTube or inDiscord.
Let us know who your MVP isthis episode.
(01:01:40):
Okay, so we would ask that fornext week, you read Book 6,
chapters 6 through 7.
And I'll say thank you so muchfor tuning into our sixth
episode of Season 4 of but Arethere Dragons, brought to you by
your hosts, jessica Sedai andme, critterxd.
Don't forget to follow us atButAreThereDragons on YouTube,
(01:02:02):
instagram and TikTok andButDragonsPod just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as critter xd and
shelf indulgence.
That is it for today.
As always, we're workshoppingnew catchphrases for season four
, so let us know on social mediahow you feel about this one.
We're glad that you're herewith us, dear listeners, here,
(01:02:23):
at the end of all things bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess.
Kritter (00:19):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Return
of the King by JRR Tolkien, withme as the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran and me as a Lordof the Rings first timer In this
our sixth episode of seasonfour.
We're going to discuss book six, chapters three through five.
But before we dive in, what'snew with you, jessica, how are
(00:40):
you feeling?
Jessica (00:47):
you, Jessica, how are you feeling?
I'm good.
I'm good.
I can't believe that August ishere and this summer, this whole
year honestly has flown by.
So I'm good, I'm ready for timeto just ease up just a little
bit, but not the read.
I'm all in on the read.
How about you?
Kritter (01:08):
all in on the read.
How about you?
Um, like, can't say.
I agree that I want time toslow down a little.
I've been, I've been pregnantthis whole year pretty much, and
so you know that is coming toan end sort of soon, um, but it
would be.
You know, things are gettingmore and more uncomfortable.
So I think I would just, youknow, like, let time pass at a
normal rate and then we'll havethe little guy here and it'll be
(01:30):
great.
So I don't have to be giganticand hot, okay, for longer than I
need to be, basically.
So, yeah, that's where I'm at,but yeah, it is nice the read.
It feels like we're so close.
It feels weird we're gettingreally, really close to being
(01:50):
done with the trilogy.
Jessica (01:53):
Yeah, tonight's read is specifically like a big deal.
Kritter (01:57):
Yeah, it's like a big deal, yeah, so let's get into it
.
Jessica (02:01):
Let's get into it.
Kritter (02:02):
All right.
Book six, chapter three Maldum.
Hmm, I wonder Maldum.
Hmm, I wonder what that couldbe.
Do you think this is the mostintimidating chapter heading yet
?
Jessica (02:13):
Yes, the only.
So I think that folks wholisten to us or watch us are
probably aware by now that Idon't look ahead, I don't even
look at chapter names, that Idon't look ahead, I don't even
look at chapter names.
But this is only the secondtime in four books that I've
looked and seen the chaptertitle and went I know what we're
doing, the only other timebeing Riddles in the Dark way,
(02:36):
way back in the Hobbit.
So when I saw this chapterheading when we finished last
week's read, I was like oh, oh,my god, it's here, we're here uh
, yeah, I mean, we've beentraveling around mordor so you
know, gotta get there some point.
Kritter (02:53):
yeah, and here we are.
So sam has a bit of an epiphanyat the beginning of this
chapter that there really is nogoing back, he is going to die,
but from that somehow hestrengthens, turning into some
creature of stone and steel thatneither despair nor weariness,
(03:13):
nor endless barren miles couldsubdue.
How are you feeling at thispoint About Sam, about all of it
?
Jessica (03:22):
I loved.
I actually quoted it because Ithought it was umami, never for
long had hoped, died in hisstaunch heart, and always until
now, he had taken some thoughtfor their return.
But the bitter truth came hometo him at last.
At best their provisions wouldtake them to their goal, and
when the task was done therethey would come to an end alone,
(03:43):
houseless, foodless, in themidst of terrible desert.
There could be no return.
So I I thought that it was verypoetic, uh, secondly, alone,
houseless and foodless is a veryhobbit way to describe a very
dire set of circumstances.
so true and just very much.
(04:05):
Points out, like you said, thatit really drilled it home for
him and then my, immediately,almost in the same breath.
Well, if that is the job, thenI must do it, the indomitable
spirit of a hobbit, yep, youknow.
Kritter (04:23):
I love it.
You gotta respect it.
You have to respect it.
Uh, so the hobbits?
They slowly and painfully maketheir way to the mountain,
eventually shedding theirdisguises after frodo gets to
the point that he can't go on,but refuses to let sam carry the
ring for him.
Frodo describes his state asnaked in the dark, with no veil
(04:45):
between him and the wheel offire.
So do you think Tolkiensucceeded at making the sound
like the worst hike in thehistory of ever?
Jessica (04:55):
uh, I mean, he didn't help hiking's cause in any way.
Um, that's for sure.
Uh, I thought that I I do thinkthat their track is incredible.
Um, I think that the sheddingof layers of clothes is also
very symbolic, right, like theyare, um, stripping down to bare
(05:20):
bones.
Uh, and it it all to Sam beingsad.
The hardest thing for him toleave behind was his cookware
you know, but I think that it'sincredibly symbolic of all the
things you leave behind when youhave a single minded purpose,
and you, you know this is.
This is what it takes to crossthis finish line.
It's incredible, it's justincredible, just incredible.
(05:45):
And and the visualization forfrodo of just seeing the ring of
fire.
This is at least the secondtime this is the first of
several times throughout thisparticular block of reading,
where it talks about how frodocan't remember good things.
He's lost memories of thingsthat are tangible and real and
(06:09):
positive, from their, theirbackground, whether it's Sam
going oh, do you remember thewine spring?
Or do you remember this, or doyou remember that?
And he's like I remembernothing, it is just the ring, um
, and it's just, it'sheart-wrenching, it's
heart-wrenching for Frodo.
Kritter (06:28):
So I was wondering if you remember this part from the
movies right, and I'll give youthe visual that actually is
paralleled really well from thebooks to the movies, where
Frodo's like batting awayinvisible things in front of him
as he's walking right Clutchingthe ring.
If you remember this part fromthe movies when they're
approaching Mount Doom, how doyou think it compares to the
(06:49):
book?
Jessica (06:51):
I think that it's terrific because I think, that
it's two very different mediums,but it evokes the same sense of
he's in a different reality.
Almost.
The writing definitelyindicates that there is a veil
between those two worlds, andthat veil is essentially gone
for Frodo, and so he is reactingto stimuli that are not
(07:17):
necessarily in this world.
Kritter (07:19):
Yeah, yeah, I think I agree, like when I was reading
some of this, as I said, likehim, like batting away nothing,
you know, like him, themshedding their clothes, like it
felt very, almost like beat forbeat, granted their time in
Mordor in total definitely feelslonger in the books, which you
know, of course they're gonna,they have to, they have to
(07:40):
shorten things and, oh, and, Iwent to the Lord of the Rings
the musical.
I forgot to mention this, butanyways, I went to Lord of the
Rings the musical and theyshortened it even more.
You know what I mean, becauseyou're you're doing so.
Three books in a play, two hours, two and a half hours.
So obviously the movies havemore time.
Yeah, the movies had more timeto work with, but still the
(08:02):
books they feel like if thebooks do anything that the
movies don't do, when it comesto the time in Mordor, it's just
hammering home how terrible itis there and how brutal and how
long the journey had to go.
Still, even once they got intoMordor, right, 40 miles at one
point, and that was after theyhad already traveled a ways so
(08:25):
far and had already been throughso much.
Yeah, yeah, so it's.
I think they depicted it verywell, but I think the books made
it even worse In the way theymade it seem even worse, which
makes sense.
So, on the last day of thejourney, frodo is at the true
end of his strength, but samsteps up.
(08:48):
I can't carry it for you, but Ican carry you and it as well.
I literally just like kind of alittle bit, um yeah, I
definitely cried when I read itthere.
Jessica (09:00):
This part, this last, this last half of the book I I'm
going to cry a lot.
That's what I know.
Kritter (09:07):
So he carries Frodo finding the burden far lighter
than he could have imagined.
So how are we feeling about thesequence?
Where do you think Sam'sstrength came from?
Or was Frodo truly that light?
Jessica (09:21):
I think it's both.
I think that everything isburned away, right.
I think that the physical tollthat it took on him to make this
trek, the physical toll ofcarrying the ring and just the
(09:41):
shedding of everything, right,like they have been going
through this and you know, formonths and months on end to one
extent or another, but you know,this most recent stretch is
like several weeks of unendingyeah, yeah, it's crazy Misery.
(10:02):
So, yeah, my words are failingme a little bit.
It's crazy.
So, yeah, my words are failingme a little bit.
So I think that he is, you know, as gaunt as you can imagine a
hobbit to be and still be ahobbit, yeah, and that also the
(10:29):
reading indicates that thelembas bread, when you eat only
the lembas bread, it makes youstronger of sinew, and when you
don't dilute it with other food.
So you know they had gottenthrough the last of.
You know sam had foraged thelast of the provisions that had
been with the things taken fromfear, theramere from him, from
their trek with theramere, andthey still had some lembas bread
provisions and so they havemoved on to just Lembas and the
(10:49):
Lembas is kind of fortifying himin that way.
Kritter (10:53):
So once again the elves coming in clutch yes.
Jessica (10:56):
But I, when he said you know it was you know I'm
paraphrasing terribly it was, itwas scary how easy it was for
him to carry him.
I was like, oh, oh god, I knowso bad.
Kritter (11:08):
I loved how sam carried frodo, just like a really great
distance, and when frodo thankshim and asks him how much
farther, sam's like I have noidea.
Like where are we going?
I don't know.
Like why are you asking me this?
He's just literally in it.
You know no thoughts, just andI love him for that?
Jessica (11:30):
I don't know, but I love that it's an honest answer
you know so if it doesn't happenon the page, it didn't happen,
right?
So, yeah, neither sam nor frodoreally kind of know their
actual destination, so for youto ask him, well, nobody's
plugged it into GPS yet, wedon't actually know.
Kritter (11:52):
We're doing our best out here.
We're just mozzie.
Jessica (11:54):
Literally just doing our best, you guys.
There was another thing thathappened right before that,
though, which kind of stuck outto me.
That though, which kind ofstuck out to me.
Um, samwise has a little debatewith himself about how things
are going and everything, and Igot I got some golem vibes from
(12:15):
it, and I know that that's not areal yeah, okay, okay, I know I
know what you're talking aboutnow, but okay so he's like he
could not sleep and held adebate with himself.
Well, come now, we've donebetter than you hoped, began
well anyway.
I reckon we crossed half thatdistance and it continues on,
and I was like.
(12:35):
I feel like this very innocuousconversation is indicative of
the toll that this is taking onSam.
A lot of attention is drawn tohow terrible this is as a whole
and how negatively it'simpacting Frodo, and we're all
(12:56):
focused on the fact that Sam iscarrying Frodo's weight and
helping him achieve this goal,and all of that is true, but
also like there is an emotionaltoll to this for Sam, wise as
well, that we just don't reallyever talk about.
Kritter (13:16):
He's not really got any conversation companions anymore
.
Frodo's lost and it's just him,so why not have a conversation
with himself, a la gollum and um, yeah, bless his heart.
So frodo is increasingly,increasingly burdened like just
terrible, but is eventuallyknocked from sam's grip by you
(13:41):
know who.
Gollum has returned.
As Gollum and Frodo are lockedin battle, sam perceives them as
something not entirelythemselves Gollum, a crouching,
ruined, defeated shadow.
Frodo, a figure robed in whiteholding at its breast a wheel of
fire.
And out of the wheel comes acommanding voice Be gone and
(14:04):
trouble me no more.
If you touch me ever again, youshall be cast yourself into the
fire of doom.
Where do you think that camefrom?
Jessica (14:16):
I have no idea, but I highlighted the whole thing.
Kritter (14:19):
That was wild Because I was like whoa Like is Sauron
like speaking through Frododohere?
It was not giving frodo I don'tknow.
Jessica (14:29):
It definitely wasn't giving frodo.
I didn't go to sauron, I did um.
So my wheel of time is showingand I was like, is this a call
back to a previous, previousreincarnation of this fight in
previous ages?
But I like I said it's veryWheel of Time and I'm like I'm
(14:51):
in the wrong IP, but stillthat's how it felt for me.
I had no idea what to make ofthis and it's all brand new
information to me.
So I, just, like I said, Ihighlighted the crap out of all
of it and I went what does thatmean?
Kritter (15:08):
Literally like well you know, maybe it's not Sauron,
maybe it's just the ring, maybeit's you know, because the
ring's getting real wily here atthe end in Mordor.
Or is it Frodo defending theone thing that he is?
Oh my God, is it the ring,right?
I just thought of that just now.
Jessica (15:29):
Be gone and trouble me no more.
If you touch me ever again, youshall be cast yourself into the
fire of doom.
Yeah.
Kritter (15:39):
Was it the ring?
Was it the ring that?
Okay new, that's my new theory,because it's not giving Frodo,
it's not.
Jessica (15:48):
I'm like I don't understand being robed in white.
Kritter (15:53):
Yeah, but the flaming, you know circle, this flaming
wheel, I don't know, I don'tknow.
I guess, if you're listening,like, let us know, where did
this come from?
Jessica (16:04):
is this?
No, but spoiler.
Bar the crap out of that,because, yeah, I don't want to
know until I'm ready to knowwell, fair enough, okay, yeah,
so anyways, theories, thoughts,um, we love theories, we do love
theories.
Kritter (16:17):
So frodo continues up the mountain and sam faces
gollum, sword in hand.
But now, after everything, whensam has every reason to end
gollum once and for all, hetakes pity on him and lets him
go.
How do you feel about thisdecision?
Jessica (16:37):
I'm so proud of sam.
His mind was hot with wrath andthe memory of evil.
Like every I thought of thiswhole time.
The constant grudge againstGollum, Granted not unwarranted
right Like, but every negativecomment, distasteful.
(17:00):
Look, all of that was like abank account that was just
accumulating, accumulated,accumulating, accumulating.
Like all of that negativity isjust building and when it comes
down to it, he, he stays hishand, he, he finds empathy in
the last moment I agree.
Kritter (17:21):
Like it hurt me you know, because I've been not team
gollum that like it did, itmade it made me think like,
would I have done the same?
Unclear, but good for sam, veryproud of sam, especially
because we have heard frodo sayit, gandalf say it.
He may yet have a part to playright, and so I don't know to
what level Sam was thinking that.
(17:43):
Probably not at all.
I think Sam just finallyrelated to Gollum just enough,
having carried the ring for justlong enough that he understood
to some extent what Gollum hadgone through, and that was
enough for him to take pity onhim.
Which I just love sam so much.
(18:04):
I don't like he is, likeeverything I wish I was and like
everyone was.
Jessica (18:10):
You know he should, he should be aspired to, everybody
should want to be like sam, andI choose to believe that he got
there on his own right becausefrodo and gandalf uh, both
directly and indirectly, had hadmade the case for empathy and
staying your hand and provide,you know, being um merciful
(18:32):
towards gollum, and he seemedvery unmoved every time that
conversation came up.
So I choose to believe that inthese moments, that in this
moment he got there on his own,which is twice the reward, yeah.
Kritter (18:47):
Sam wise for real.
He got there.
We love him for it.
So Sam then followed Frodo andfound him at the end of a tunnel
boring into the mountain and atthe edge of the chasm, at the
brink of doom.
But there Frodo announced in aclear voice that he was not
going to do his appointed taskand he put on the ring.
(19:12):
Moment golem returned, knockingsam out, and sauron realized
his folly, recognizing hisdeadly peril and the thread upon
which his doom now hung.
How is this for a climax?
This is amazing, so it was.
Jessica (19:34):
I think that it was incredibly well represented on
the screen Don't get me wrong,but reading it, and I was like I
could see in my head all of thering rays going yeah.
And again this read has shown methat you know, all of that
(19:57):
misdirection and diversion was,you know, part and parcel for
the plan and but also thebackstory of not understanding
that.
I think that Gandalf explainedit to us at one point never in
the world would it have occurredto Sauron to destroy the ring
because it's too valuable to todestroy in in his estimation.
(20:19):
So he never would have occurredtoon to destroy the ring
because it's too valuable todestroy in his estimation, so he
never would have occurred tohim to destroy the ring.
So all of those pieces lumpedtogether make this reveal that
much more awesome.
Like in that moment he isreally completely taken unawares
, and it is awesome.
Kritter (20:37):
Yeah, outsmarted you, buddy.
So there, yeah I.
But but it's not over yet.
Gollum and frodo grapple, andgollum manages to bite the ring
from frodo's finger.
In his elation, though, hestumbles off the edge into the
chasm and all hell breaks loose.
(20:59):
So we did not get a heroovercoming the corruption of the
ring in the end.
Instead, the ring goes downafter a series of unfortunate
events and a happy accident.
How do you feel about that?
Jessica (21:14):
uh, I, uh, I the Gollum stan wants to feel good about
it that he inadvertently, withhis last act, did something
incredibly kind to the world.
Kritter (21:32):
Okay, Can something accidental be kind?
You know, kind to me impliesintent okay, so not kind, but
beneficial.
Jessica (21:43):
Sure, absolutely, yeah, sure, um, I'll take the
distinction um in that I I dokind of go back to our smog
conversation about how it wasn'tthe hero winning the day.
It was a whole nother set ofcircumstances that actually won
(22:05):
the day.
So I feel parallels there.
So I think it's incredible thatthe ring made it in, knowing
all of the things that wereworking against that moment.
But it's definitely not thetypical, you know, hero saves
the day in the traditional sensethat somebody might expect.
Kritter (22:28):
Not traditional.
Jessica (22:29):
We didn't not get a hero right, we still have many
heroes, many heroes hero.
Kritter (22:39):
Right, we still have a here.
We still have many heroes, manyheroes, and in this case, I
think the heroes are closer inproximity to the ultimate
victory than in the hobbit.
Yes, it's in the hobbit.
We meet somebody and then it'slike, oh, that's the guy who's
actually gonna save and kill thebad guy.
Right, this was definitely morelike okay, sam and frodo teed
this up, but also so did Gandalfand Aragorn, and everybody had
(23:01):
to do their part in this to makeit happen.
So we got heroes, but it wasjust that very last part for me
where it's like Frodo refused.
He did the same thing thatIsildur did, essentially, but
Gollum was there to thwart him,essentially, and that's why we
finally got the ring destroyed.
Jessica (23:20):
And his last wail of precious, and then he's gone.
Kritter (23:22):
I was just like well played.
Jessica (23:24):
Tolkien Well played.
Kritter (23:26):
In my notes I just say the Nazgul just dissolve, lol.
They're like on their way andthen, you know, the starts
exploding every like the towersstart crumbling, whatever they
just describe.
The nascal is like kind of justdissolving, so nice, get out of
(23:47):
here.
Um, so then sam carries frodofrom the cavern and immediately
laments the hand that gollum hadmade.
He seems so fixated on thishand.
Uh, frodo notes that the questis achieved, all is over, and
he's happy to have sam therewith him at the end of all
things.
And that's where the chapterends and thoughts before we move
(24:09):
on uh, just, there was oneother quote right before that.
Jessica (24:15):
Well, this is the end, sam gamgee.
And there was frodo, pale andworn, and yet himself again in
his eyes, there was peace now,neither strain of will, nor
madness or any fear.
His burden was take away.
There was the dear master ofthe sweet days in the shire, and
I just, I loved that the reliefhaving a burden lifted.
Kritter (24:35):
Yeah it, it was beautiful.
It felt good, even though youknow they.
They think they're going to die.
I think it's the end.
Jessica (24:43):
Um, but at the end he gets to be himself Right, which
is perfect, which is definitelysomething yeah.
Kritter (24:51):
Okay, Book six, chapter four, the field of core Malin.
So we are back with Aragorn andGandalf.
We're hopping around a littlebit POV time as the eagles
arrive.
So you remember that point intime.
Jessica (25:05):
Pippin's buried under a troll.
Kritter (25:10):
Eagles are arriving, the Nazgul flee being called to
another task.
So we can assume Sighting.
Oh, sighting, true, another one, one, even though they've
already dissolved.
But we're back in time, sowhatever.
Uh, so as saron's attentionturns to frodo in the mountain,
his armies lose their drive.
And then, when the ring isdestroyed, the armies flee.
(25:30):
This is how, I believe, tolkiendescribed saron's presence in
this moment.
Tell me if you took it anotherway.
Black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of
shadow, impenetrable,lightning-crowned, filling all
the sky.
Enormous.
(25:50):
It reared above the world andstretched out towards them, a
vast threatening hand.
Terrible but impotent, for evenas it leaned over them, a great
wind took it and it was allblown away and passed.
So was that, sauron, for you?
Jessica (26:07):
It was.
I hope that's right, that'swhat I thought.
Kritter (26:11):
I mean, that's what I took that it wasn't explicit,
but to me I'm like, yeah, that Isee that that's kind of awesome
.
Jessica (26:17):
Nothing in the read indicates that Sauron had a form
, right like everything, was himacting through others and he
has a mouth, and he has the ringand an eye, yes, and I some
kind of metaphorical eye,perhaps in the, in the books,
whereas it's more physical inthe movies um, so yeah, no, I
(26:39):
totally took this as sauron okay, pretty, pretty epic.
Kritter (26:44):
I love that.
It leans out a vast threateninghand terrible and then, but
impotent, and then just blowsaway.
Love it, bye, bye.
So g Gandalf immediately asksGwaihir and his eagle friends to
bear him on a task.
Right, gandalf is focused andGwaihir is happy to oblige, as
(27:06):
Frodo and Sam are convinced.
Their time is up and Sam wisheshe could hear the tales that
would be told about ninefingered Frodo and the Ring of
Doom.
Gwaihir appears on the horizonand sweeps down with his fellow
eagles to bear them away.
So Gandalf finally gets tocatch up with Frodo and Sam,
like we suspected he wanted todo when Faramir told him he'd
(27:28):
seen him, at least I suspected.
Satisfying resolution.
Or would it have been betterfor the story if Sam and Frodo
had made the ultimate sacrifice?
Jessica (27:41):
No, I'm never going to vote for that.
Okay, no Fair.
I'm way too attached to myhobbits.
I'm like no, just no.
I think they gave up enough.
I really do, as much as I dounderstand that trope and why
some writers really prefer it.
Um, I know they gave up enough.
Kritter (28:05):
I'm a happy endings girly person, like I want you
know.
You hear Sam thinking aboutRosie, cotton and the Shire.
You hear Frodo talking about,like all of his.
You know Bilbo and everything.
You don't want that to just bedone like be gone.
Jessica (28:20):
Well, and even Gandalf and Gwaihir rescuing them, two
small dark figures forlorn handin hand upon a little hill.
Yes, I want them to be saved.
Save them.
Yes, save them, dear God.
Kritter (28:35):
I agree, I completely agree.
I just know some people arelike, oh yeah, well, what's the
point if no one dies?
Boromir died, that's all weneed.
Sorry, sorry, den thor died,who, honestly?
Who cares?
But like we, oh, they died.
They didn't did die, so thatwas a good one.
People died, it was that enough?
(28:55):
People died.
Um, okay, so sam wakes up in abed in Ithilien this is another
place that I had to be like what?
Where Gandalf at his side, tohis amazement, because, remember
, they still thought Gandalf wasdead.
Frodo also nearby, teasing himfor sleeping in.
So I'm not going to lie, I wasreally defensive for Sam at this
(29:18):
point, like that boy deserved arest.
Okay, so how do you feel aboutthis reunion with Gandalf?
Jessica (29:25):
So this felt like the flip of what happened when they
went to Rivendell, right?
So it was Frodo abed, andSamwise has been loyally by his
side.
I don't know if you can hear it.
We've got some excellentthunder happening.
Kritter (29:38):
I heard I just faint, you can hear it We've got some
excellent thunder happening.
I just faintly, I heardsomething yeah.
Jessica (29:42):
So I think that it's a great flip of that that now it
is Frodo waiting tentatively,attentively for Sam to awaken.
So, yes, I do think that it'sfun loving and that he totally
deserves rest, but I think thatthat's what that was about.
(30:03):
So, this whole scene definitelygave me vibes of the waking up
in Revendell scene and the Bilbogoodbye tour in the Hobbit,
honestly.
So there was a lot of thatgoing on for me in the last half
of this read okay, yeah, I cantotally see that.
Kritter (30:24):
Yeah, uh.
So frodo and sam are led tomeet with the king and, it turns
out a bit of a ceremony wasprepared for them.
They are praised with greatpraise, even by aragorn, who
kneels before them and placesthem on the throne.
A bard also sings them a taleof frodo, of the nine fingers
(30:46):
and the ring of doom, and samweeps with happiness having
gotten everything he wanted.
Any highlights from thiscelebration?
Jessica (30:56):
um, I still can't get over the fact that Aragorn is a
healer, so they reference thatAragorn is the king, healed you
and now awaits for you.
The other thing there were twoother again really throwaway
comments.
One a little bit more somberAragorn's talking and he says it
(31:17):
is a long way, is it not, fromBree, where you did not like the
look of me, and a long way forus all.
But yours has been the darkestroad.
And then, sam, they are broughtback their raiment and his
elven cloak was all healed ofthe soils and hurt that it had
suffered so like.
(31:38):
It means nothing.
Right, their cloaks meannothing, just the way that it
was worded I thought was awesome.
Kritter (31:45):
Well, and I mean the first statement that you said
didn't mean nothing, right, theacknowledgement that they went
through more than anybody.
Jessica (31:52):
And they had the darkest path.
Kritter (31:54):
They had the darkest path.
Like, yeah, everybody had arough time, obviously they had
the darkest path.
Like, yeah, everybody had arough time, obviously.
But Frodo and Sam, the factthat these two little hobbits
are getting mad props from themost powerful politically at
least man in Middle-earth Good,they deserved it, they earned it
.
So, as you said, sam and Frodoare clothed in their more proper
clothes, frodo taking Stingback at Sam's insistence, and
(32:18):
they head to a feast wherethey're reunited with Merry and
Pippin.
At one point we find outbecause Gimli makes sure
everyone knows that he was theone to find Pippin buried under
the enemy on the battlefield.
Do you find Gimli to be alittle overly boastful, or is
the way he is just about right?
Jessica (32:41):
overly boastful, or is the way he is just about right?
I mean, he probably is right,but I just attributed it to his
dwarvish nature.
Kritter (32:46):
He's a proud dwarf.
Jessica (32:47):
I kind of have the same thing, yeah I'm like porqué no
lodos, right, like both thingscan be true, he's boastful, but
he's a dwarf, so it's fine.
It's funny just like they, Justlike they were more
materialistic.
Again, when you makegeneralizations it can rub
people the wrong way, but Ithink that also Gimli is beyond
(33:11):
what I would consider a standardissue.
Dwarf right Like Gimli is a warhero in his own right and has
seen some stuff and who respectselves right so these.
Kritter (33:25):
His horizons have been broadened.
He just still has some of thoselittle dwarfy tendencies, and
dwarves are just gonna dwarfevery time he does.
It makes me laugh.
Yes, never forget, I was theone that found you.
I'll never forget what a hobbitfoot looks like, just like such
a good.
Jessica (33:42):
He's so funny and such a random thing to find.
You know, like you know, youjust like picked him out of a
pile.
I mean, of course you did sureyou did.
Kritter (33:51):
Uh, so legolas also keeps talking about the sea,
which makes me sad, but I'm alsokind of happy for him.
I guess, I don't know, I'm tornabout that.
We'll see where that goes.
He's just very wistful at thispoint, um, and then the armies
eventually head back to minastirith via ship.
And that's the end of thechapter.
Jessica (34:11):
Thoughts before we move on uh, I did like the fact that
mary and I are we are Knightsof the city and of the mark, as
I hope you observe.
Uh.
Kritter (34:20):
I thought that was just a little bit of snark.
Jessica (34:24):
I liked it.
Um, and then there was justagain, just this little brief
snippet of all of them getting achance to sit and just swap
stories, um, and that vibe wasexactly right.
Uh, finally have the remainingmembers of the fellowship
together and able to talk aboutwhat their individual, how they
(34:48):
got to where they are, um and it.
You know it's just a paragraph,but I loved it because I loved
the mental image that it gave me.
Yeah.
It's nice Reunited and it feelsso good, basically okay, uh,
yeah, and they were talkingabout the city of men, of gondor
, last memory of the westernessthat had passed through the
(35:09):
darkness and fire to a new daywe're getting hope, it's giving,
it's giving hope, it's givinghope and i's giving hope and I
dig it Same.
Kritter (35:19):
So book six, chapter five the Steward and the King.
So we go back in time again tojust after Aragorn and his host
left for the Black Gate and weremet with Lady Eowyn chafing
against the walls of the Housesof Healing.
She learns that Faramir is thenew steward by rights and seeks
him out, hoping he'll releaseher.
(35:40):
How did you feel about thisinitial conversation between
Eowyn and Faramir?
Jessica (35:45):
So I'm going to say that it's really really hard for
me to go on the record with ananti-female sentiment, but I
don't like Eowyn much in thischapter.
Already like right out of thegate, right out of the gate.
This started off on the wrongfoot with me, so I do understand
(36:07):
that.
You know she is a shield maiden.
She's a warrior at heart andthis is and she feels, and and
that's not, uh, the thesentiments that she's expressing
are not gender specific, right?
Any warrior that goes intobattle and thinks they're going
to die is then faced with thetrauma afterwards of now I've
lived.
Now what, right?
Like that's not.
(36:29):
I don't begrudge her that, buteverything about the way that
this was framed, I guess, justrubbed me the wrong way.
I cannot lie in sloth, idle andcaged, and I just was like it's
not lazy to be resting.
We're healing, healing, yeah,yeah, like I don't have, I have
(36:49):
not died, and battle still goeson and I'm like I wouldn't like
this, even if it were a malecharacter saying it.
So she's entitled to thosefeelings.
I just, for whatever reason, Istarted off on a really wrong
foot and then I would have youcommand this warden and bid him
let me go, she said.
But though her words were stillproud, her heart faltered and
for the first time she doubtedherself.
(37:10):
She guessed this tall man, bothstern and gentle, might think
her merely wayward, like a childthat has not the firmness of
mind to go on with a dull taskto the end.
And when I read that I'm likebut you are you are being
wayward and you have just gainedsome self-awareness.
(37:31):
Embrace it.
Awareness is a very importantfirst step.
So it could, because then thatdevolves it.
You know that's her speech toFaramir when she's asking you
know, and I do love the factthat she says you know, I'm not,
it's not for want of care, thehouses of healing are taking
(37:51):
excellent care of me, but it'sbecause of this, of this um, and
so when he counsels her, thatyou know, our lot is essentially
patience and the front linecould find us very soon.
Kritter (38:06):
um, you know she devolves into well, but my room
doesn't face eastward oh, so wasthat a little, uh, childish
also for you, or were you likeoh yeah, okay, yeah, no, you
didn't like that.
Jessica (38:23):
So again we have so few female characters that I don't
and maybe I'm just having arough day right Like, maybe
Eowyn is just not my jam in thismoment because I loved her
heart and fervor on the fieldbut outside of combat I seem to
have taken issue with her alittle bit, Just a little whiny
(38:47):
this time.
Yeah, and I just like our otherheroes.
She has been through somethingincredibly traumatic and has all
of this to go with.
But I'm like why is yourbehavior, for some reason,
really grating on me?
I'm sure it says more about methan it does about Eowyn.
Kritter (39:07):
Eowyn and Faramir have the same situation and Faramir
is handling it much better.
So I think that's fair to belike.
You need to get it together.
I think it is funny, though,because two episodes ago, you
kind of predict this right,because when aragorn was like,
uh, what was it?
Mary, mary can, mary can take awalk, like mary can do
basically whatever he wants.
(39:28):
Uh, but aoin and faramir, theyneed to stay in the house of
healing for 10 days, and yousaid, if I recall, something
along the lines of because theymight not because they might
decide they need to go, get outand do stupid stuff.
Jessica (39:41):
Whereas Mary is smart enough to stay, stay put.
Kritter (39:44):
That's an out here and it's like, yeah, I want to, I
want to follow the companythat's going to the black gate
like days after.
Yeah, no, girlfriend, what areyou doing?
Jessica (39:53):
So the flip side of that to soften that criticism is
that I do very much likeFaramir in this section and I do
like the effect through thischapter that Faramir has on
Eowyn, that he softens her andoffers her a different
perspective that she willactually listen to.
(40:15):
Because, as we know, aragorn andTheodenoden maybe not Theoden,
but definitely Aragorn tried tooffer her a different
perspective, and she was notwilling to receive that message,
whereas this time, with Faramir, does seem to connect with her
a little bit more yeah, so Ithought in their first
conversation it was really funnybecause he like very
(40:37):
respectfully drops some majorhints that he's into her.
Kritter (40:42):
And they literally, in this first conversation, fly
over her head.
She does not respond in the waythat you would like.
I'm being hit on, so I'm goingto respond.
No, she just doesn't evennotice.
But then, eventually, as yousaid, time passes, eowyn and
Faramir grow closer, walking thegarden together, waiting for
news, until, finally, one day,they observe what we know to be
(41:04):
the destruction of Sauron, andthey receive the good tidings.
Faramir takes on a stewardshiprole to prepare for the coming
of the king, and Eowyn fallsback into apparent despair.
Finally, faramir confronts herand asks whether she loves him.
Her response is complicated.
(41:26):
This is.
This, though, is the mostblatant romance plot we've
gotten in these books how, howis it working for you, or how
did it work for you?
Jessica (41:37):
Once.
Once Faramir broached the topicI was in.
I'm into it because I feel likehe is saying he is using his
high level of perception to callit out.
He's saying the quiet parts outloud, right.
He's like you wanted somebodyelse to love you.
(41:57):
He has gone to battle.
He, you know your love isunreciprocated, but I tell you
plainly that you know I love you, yeah.
And she volleys back with Idon't want anybody's pity.
I'm like it's still great.
It's a little bit.
I'm sorry.
Kritter (42:13):
No, honestly, her reaction like she's like I did
want him to love me, but now Idon't want anybody's pity.
It's like now what are yousaying?
Jessica (42:21):
Yeah, and I mean I don't know if you noticed, but
like he's a catch dude.
Kritter (42:27):
Oh my God, jump on this opportunity.
What are you?
Jessica (42:30):
doing the heart wants what the heart wants.
But aragorn was very clearlynot reciprocating.
Um, and and faramir, and thesemoments, I, I, I was glad that
they were saying the quiet partsout loud.
I guess I'm I don't want totalk in circles, but I thought
that it was good.
Um, I, when he tells me thathe's doing romance, I, I see it.
(42:54):
Um, I think that before it wasjust a little too subtle for me
uh-huh, uh-huh, and I do.
Kritter (43:01):
I like faramir man, I love this guy he really knows he
knows that eowyn was in lovewith somebody else, right, he
knows that she's kind of a toughnut to crack here and he gives
her this speech even when she'slike I don't want to be pitied
by anyone.
He gives her this speech.
That's like I don't pity you atall, like I think that you're
incredible.
Um, and basically, with hiswise, incredible, loving words,
(43:27):
he warms her heart and heals itand she, she becomes better.
Right, she changes, she changesher ways, she knows what she
wants.
Like it worked for me, I don'tknow.
It's like, especially because,especially because I don't chalk
up her like childishness orwhatever to her being a woman, I
I would like to attribute it tohow much she was going through.
(43:50):
Right, she had witnessedThéoden die, she had.
She was definitely under thewhat do they call it?
The black sickness or whatever.
Jessica (43:55):
Yeah, the black shadow.
Kritter (43:57):
Yeah, something like that.
Like she she of all people wasthe most burdened by it.
Right, she was the one whodealt the final blow.
Her sword was there, like shedid it all.
Um, so she has every right tobe traumatized and not in a good
place, and that's kind of why Igave her a little bit of a pass
.
Um, and the fact that fair amirbrought her out of it just felt
(44:17):
really romantic to me thatmeans that love heals all fair,
amir heals her exactly I knowthat and it makes him kind of
kingly right, because the handsof this king, or the hands of
the healer, I don't know, Idon't know.
So, okay, aragorn and hiscompany finally arrive and
faramir announces him with many,many titles I'm going to say
(44:41):
them momentarily.
And I will ask which do youthink are the coolest or stand
out the most to you?
Okay, okay.
Aragorn, son of erathorn,chieftain of the dunedain of
honor, captain of the host ofthe west, bearer of the star of
the north, wielder of the sword,reforged, victorious in battle,
(45:05):
whose hands bring healing, the,the Elfstone.
Elessar, of the line ofValandil, isildur's son,
elendil's, son of Numenor thatlast part is all kind of
clustered.
Basically it's just his lineage.
Jessica (45:20):
Bearer of the Star of the North.
Kritter (45:23):
Okay, so that one caught your attention.
Do you?
You don't.
We don't know what that is.
That's why I caught yourattention, yeah I looked funny
you should ask I looked it upbecause I was like wait, that
didn't happen in this book,right, it didn't.
No, did you look it up?
Jessica (45:43):
no, okay, just checking no, no, I'm gonna finish this
series strong man good, okay, sowe've got a mysterious title.
Yes, do you want to know theones I was able to work out?
Kritter (45:57):
do you want to know where you can find the answer to
what?
Jessica (46:01):
that is well so.
Star of the north ishyperlinked, so I bet I could go
to my thing and find out.
Oh, I just mean like the book,is it in silmarillion?
It's not, is it in this book?
Kritter (46:18):
no biscuits.
It's in the book of lost tales.
I know it well.
It might be in the silmarillion, but whenever I looked it up it
was like this is something thatwe find out in the book of Lost
Tales.
Jessica (46:31):
Okay, well, since that's not a book we've agreed
to read, yes, please.
I would love to know the storyon the Star of the North.
Kritter (46:38):
So it's let's see, I'm going to do my best here.
It's basically Ellen Deals.
It's like this hold on, I'mgoing to look.
I'm just going to look it upbecause I don't want to get it
wrong.
Jessica (46:49):
Star of the North.
The overwhelming urge to clickon the hyperlink now and see
where it takes me.
But I'm not gonna.
Kritter (46:56):
Gotta be careful.
Elendil Myr was the name of theStar of Elendil or the Star of
the North Kingdom, a greatgemstone that seemed to burn
with an inner light mounted on aslender chain of mithril.
To burn with an inner light.
Mounted on a slender chain ofmithril, it became a token of
royalty throughout the kingdomof Arnor, having been the first
crafted and presented to theHigh King of Gondor of Arnor.
(47:18):
Elendil the Tall, I won't saywe find out in the sorry
Unfinished Tales, not the Bookof Lost Tales.
We find out in Unfinished Talesthat Aragorn found the
Elendilmere in the Tower ofOrthanc.
So after Sauron's defeat,aragorn, with the help of Gimli,
finds a hidden door and a steelcabinet in which they discover
(47:41):
a small golden tube without anyinscription, containing the
original Elendilmere.
Jessica (47:48):
That's wild, I know, so he only wears it on special
occasions.
Kritter (47:50):
The original Elendilmir .
That's wild, I know.
So he only wears it on specialoccasions.
And yeah, I'm so glad that youpointed that out.
Jessica (47:58):
Wait, wait, wait.
When does he go on that quest?
Kritter (48:01):
Whenever they're.
Jessica (48:03):
Sauron just got defeated.
Kritter (48:06):
You're right, so how can he?
Jessica (48:09):
already have that title .
Kritter (48:10):
Wow, how can he have that?
Aragorn finds the originalElendilmir in the Tower of
Orthanc.
After Sauron's defeat, he goesto Orthanc.
Jessica (48:22):
Now I need a map because now I'm like how far
away is Orthanc?
You know, this is time pastright.
Kritter (48:35):
They waited until May to go into the city.
It doesn't matter, they go toorthonk.
Well, never mind, um it's okaymaybe see.
The thing in the book, though,is he is described as wearing a
gem on his forehead, and so tome, I thought that's the ellen
deal.
That's this what we're talkingabout ellen deal mirror the
(48:55):
ellen.
But maybe it's not, maybe theyjust are calling him that
because that's like a title thatthey give you know, kings from
the line of ellen deal, and thenhe eventually goes and recovers
it.
But I swear in this book theydid describe him as wearing a
gem on his forehead.
So now I'm like, okay, is there?
Do we have a continuity issue?
I know we have some major lord.
(49:16):
I'm sure that's not true.
I know we have some major lordof the rings.
People like in our discord.
Jessica (49:21):
Plus year old story like it's okay but I want to
know I know now I want to knowall the things, but I I got to
finish this story first.
Kritter (49:31):
You're right, sorry about any other story.
Any of you people know what'sgoing on here.
The bearer of the star of theNorth.
When did he get it?
When did he go to Orthak?
How did he find it?
Let us know.
Jessica (49:42):
Okay, I'm like, do we phone a friend?
Do we reach out to our fun Lordof the Rings friends who are
better at obscure stuff, likeDawn or Mary, maybe, maybe I'll
make a TikTok about this andjust be like, explain this and
invite what's happening andinvite, yeah, maybe that Tolkien
, that German Tolkien guy, couldtell us.
Kritter (50:01):
Yeah, somebody's going to tell us the mystery will be
solved.
Jessica (50:05):
And.
Kritter (50:05):
I'm sure I could probably like do the research,
but who wants to do that?
Jessica (50:31):
No, I'm kidding, I might do the research after this
.
All right, so when it came timefor Aragorn to put the crown on
, that, faramir had recoveredfor him.
He asked that Frodo be itsbearer and that Gandalf be the
one to crown him, because he wasthe mover of all that was
accomplished and it was hisvictory.
First of all, yes, agreed, butdid this make you feel any type
of way that it was incrediblysmart?
I don't think that.
I don't think that any of themwould have faulted him for doing
it another way, but it speaksto his character that he wanted
(50:54):
to do this in a way thathighlighted those that had
helped all of them get to thispoint.
Kritter (51:02):
He is a.
He is a level-headed guy, Likehe's fair, he is a just dude, in
my opinion.
Speaking of Aragorn gavefaramir ethelian to be his
princedom and passed judgmentwith respect to baragon's crime
assigning him to faramir's guard.
How are you feeling so farabout aragorn the king?
Jessica (51:23):
I think we kind of just touched on that.
I dig it, I absolutely dig it.
I think that, um, that it isjust right, right, like he can't
stay in Minas Tirith because ofthe things that happened, but,
um, he found a way to honor theum intent of the law, um,
without punishing Baragond forultimately doing the right thing
(51:47):
wishing Baragond for ultimatelydoing the right thing.
Kritter (51:53):
Yeah, and can I just say and this will apply for like
many things that we find outhere later in this chapter and
future chapters but Tolkien, heloves tying up loose ends.
He's a loose end king Likenever, ever did any like you
know.
End and let people guess whathappens next couldn't be told.
There's no such ending on likefor the fun.
(52:15):
You know the end of the story.
There's no, there's no guessing.
He's not going to leave youwondering about anybody.
So far that's what it seemslike.
So, though the people of rohandeparted to get their fares in
order, affairs in order, aragornasked the fellowship to stay in
minas tirith a while.
Frodo starts to get a littleresin order Affairs in order,
Aragorn asked the Fellowship tostay in Minas Tirith a while.
Frodo starts to get a littleantsy.
But Gandalf reminds him that ithad been less than a year since
(52:36):
he'd set out from the Shire.
It feels wild to me that all ofthat happened in less than a
year, but also not wild, becauseTolkien kept filling us in on
the timeline as we talked about.
Jessica (52:58):
How did?
That little knowledge bomb lessthan a year hit you.
I had the same thing where Iwas like what can't be, but also
I guess, yeah, I guess.
So you know he did tell usalong the way.
But that's why I had thatmoment just earlier in this
episode where I was like it'sreally only been a few weeks on
this particular part of the trekand I'm like a lot has happened
in this book, a lot hashappened across the trilogy less
than a year?
Kritter (53:16):
absolutely crazy.
Um, so then gandalf, kind oflike, takes aragorn off into the
wild and he has a heart toheart with him, letting him know
that the third age had passedand the fourth age would be an
age of men.
He lets him know that, alongwith the elder kindred, he would
also be departing, for he wasthe enemy of Sauron capital E
(53:41):
and his work was finished.
He also points out to Aragornthat in that hidden place was a
sapling from the line of theeldest of trees, the same kind
of tree that had withered in thecourtyard of Minas Tirith.
Any thoughts about this convo?
Jessica (53:57):
I thought it was wild that Gandalf's entire destiny
was tied to his opposition ofSauron.
So it was complete news to methat he was done in the world
because Sauron was done in theworld.
So that was a big piece ofknowledge to kind of wrap myself
(54:17):
around.
And of course there's a magictree and of course there's one
just hanging out in the back 40.
Kritter (54:25):
Yeah.
Jessica (54:27):
Why would there not?
Kritter (54:28):
be.
Yeah, I mean the other one'sdead, so he's gotta have a king
tree but you know, aragorn isnothing if not a child of
prophecy.
Jessica (54:39):
So it you know, it feels accurate that you know,
once he comes into his own andreclaims his kingdom, that the
tree would present itself to him.
Kritter (54:50):
Yeah, I agree.
I will say that this is.
I'm going to briefly, like very, very briefly, talk about Rings
of Power.
So when I read this part, thisenemy of Sauron with a capital E
, I thought that it lent itselfto the stranger being gandalf,
(55:11):
because, you know, we stilldon't know who he is.
Season two hasn't started, um,and I've heard, maybe he's a
blue wizard, because we don'tknow anything about the blue
wizards and they went off intothe wild and whatever.
But this to me, because therings of power is so focused on
saauron and his rise, right.
It just felt.
It felt very much like okaywell, if there's an enemy of
(55:34):
Sauron, you would think that hewould kind of at least be
somewhat involved in Sauron'sbeginning, right?
Sure, and so that's part of meis like okay well.
Jessica (55:46):
I've always thought it was Gandalf.
Kritter (55:47):
You've always thought it was Gandalf.
Of course it's like aself-fulfilling, you know, like,
oh, I'm so right.
Jessica (55:52):
But also, you know if the stories, you know if the
source material links the twoinextricably.
There's a lot to be said forthat.
Kritter (56:02):
Why would it not be?
That's what I'm saying.
So anyways, official prediction, slightly backed up by the text
, pretty excited about it.
Um, all right, so we end thechapter.
A host of elves, includinggaladriel, kelleborn,
glorifindil, elrond and arwen,show up.
It was the day aragorn had beenwaiting for.
(56:23):
Aragorn and arwen married onmidsummer's Day.
Thoughts on this last part ofthe chapter generally, before we
pick an MVP.
Jessica (56:34):
Did anybody ask Arwen if she wanted to get married?
Kritter (56:38):
What I mean?
She can't.
What do you mean, I guess, yeah, we don't know anything about
her.
Jessica (56:43):
So again, arwen hasn't even spoken on the page.
She wrote a note.
She did.
Kritter (56:52):
Or wait, did she write a?
Jessica (56:52):
note, or did she pass?
Kritter (56:53):
a message.
Jessica (56:54):
Yeah, she passed a message with the banner that she
stitched for him.
Kritter (56:59):
Yeah, that's the most talking that she's done.
Jessica (57:03):
She doesn't actually talk.
Yeah, and I'm like, did Elrondjust bring her and hand her over
, like as?
I guess was want to do incertain societies.
Um, so yeah, I I want to besuper excited about this.
I have yet to know if arweneven likes aragorn.
(57:27):
Okay, sorry, I hadn't eventhought about, I made him a cool
banner, I know, but like I'm soenamored with with the Arwen
Aragorn love story how it wasportrayed in the movies and I
have gotten none of that, yeah,so I hope that there's.
(57:48):
There's a love that transcendstime.
I just would like to see it alittle bit before it's over yeah
, the musical did better with ittoo.
Kritter (57:59):
They played up the romance more.
Also she spoke.
Jessica (58:02):
She had some good songs , even so you know not to end on
a cranky note, but I was likehey, that's okay I hope she
consented, that's all we canonly assume or hope, hope and
assume, okay.
Kritter (58:18):
So we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp
from the chapters we've read foreach episode.
Cue the music j Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (58:31):
So I'm going to say once again, sam, this time
though most notably for his actof empathy and compassion for
Gollum, which not only savedhimself but saved Frodo, because
(58:52):
without it Frodo would havegone all the way to the dark
side and it would have beenheartbreaking and awful.
So he saved himself and hisvery dear friend Frodo and
ultimately saved the whole world.
Yep, his very dear friend Frodoand and that, and ultimately
saved the whole world.
Kritter (59:13):
Yep.
Jessica (59:14):
Because Gollum's actions are what made the ring
finally be addressed.
So it's Sam for me all the way.
Kritter (59:23):
A thousand times.
Yes, I agree with you, ahundred thousand percent.
Not only that, which is huge,huge him overcoming his hatred
for golem and finding mercy inhis heart, wild, incredible
statement like testament to hisjust amazingness he also I can't
carry it for you, but I cancarry you, I just I love that
(59:46):
part so much.
He literally carries the worldon his back in these chapters.
And so, not just giving meletting Gollum go free and then
having that be ultimately thereason that the ring goes into
the fire, but like, ringwouldn't been near the fire If
Sam hadn't taken that, takenFrodo and just done what needed
(01:00:08):
to be done.
Right, that epiphany.
I'm not coming back from this,but it doesn't matter, I've got
to do this.
This is my task, like I loveSam so much.
Jessica (01:00:21):
All the other undying love things too.
You know that I can't carry it,but I can carry you.
All of those things go withoutsaying.
But you know, know for likeproof on the page like these are
my reasons.
Kritter (01:00:33):
Like sure, aragorn, very just.
King Faramir, lovable, likeromantic, incredible, Gandalf,
wise, you know, everybody hasseveral people have some really
solid chapters, but Sam has thechapter and that's yeah, that's
yeah.
So if you, uh, those of you outthere, if you want to weigh in
(01:00:54):
on who you think the mvp is,because, yeah, we only have one
like primary sam and frodochapter here out of the three,
so it really could be.
I mean so I I wouldn't besurprised.
Save the whole world, it did.
I wouldn't be surprised if someof you all picked gollum,
though, because I can't trustyou.
Jessica (01:01:10):
I thought about it, but ultimately it was Sam's choice.
Kritter (01:01:17):
It was yeah, because without Sam, gollum would be
Well, technically, sam wouldhave been the one killing Gollum
, but without Sam's choice,gollum could have been dead, and
so that wouldn't have happened.
Right, it was all Sam.
Sam was the one, but if youpick Gollum, more power to you,
I guess.
I'm curious, I'm very curious.
Comments on YouTube or inDiscord.
Let us know who your MVP isthis episode.
(01:01:40):
Okay, so we would ask that fornext week, you read Book 6,
chapters 6 through 7.
And I'll say thank you so muchfor tuning into our sixth
episode of Season 4 of but Arethere Dragons, brought to you by
your hosts, jessica Sedai andme, critterxd.
Don't forget to follow us atButAreThereDragons on YouTube,
(01:02:02):
instagram and TikTok andButDragonsPod just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as critter xd and
shelf indulgence.
That is it for today.
As always, we're workshoppingnew catchphrases for season four
, so let us know on social mediahow you feel about this one.
We're glad that you're herewith us, dear listeners, here,
(01:02:23):
at the end of all things bye.
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