June 4, 2024 • 68 mins
Join Jess and Kritter once more, this time for The Two Towers Book Four Chapters 3 through 5. After a brief, spontaneous cicada discussion, they are off to the Black Gate, Sam makes a stew, and the party encounters some important, new strangers.
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
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Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Two Towers by JRR Tolkien,
with me as a resident Lord ofthe Rings veteran, and me as the
Tolkien first timer In this oursixth episode of season three.
(00:30):
We're going to discuss book four, chapters three through five,
before we dive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Good, summer is pretty much here and all that
that entails, so ready to hopinto it.
How about you?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Is where you are.
Are there cicadas?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
There are not cicadas , but I haven't been here very
long and I keep meaning to askif cicadas might come here.
I kind of need to find out.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Well, if they're on the same calendar schedule as
the cicadas where I am, which isSt Louis, they're on their way
out.
We hit peak cicada probablyabout a week ago.
It has been wild.
They're still everywhere.
So do they go east, west,wherever the heck they want?
I, it's my understanding thatthey just like emerge around the
(01:25):
same time and then they go awayafter like four or five weeks.
Obviously I am not a.
What is the word?
I'm not honest.
No, yeah, no, oh, what I know?
The word entomologist bugsright entomologist bugs.
It might be entomologist.
That one's gonna make me madthat I can't think of it, but
(01:49):
you might be right, you might beright um, either way, let us
know in the comments we're wrong.
I'm definitely gonna look it upafter this.
But uh, I'm no bug expert and itmight depend on the climate,
right, it might depend onlongitude, latitude, situation,
like you, know, because, fromwhat I understand, they like to
come out during the best time ofthe year and by golly they have
, like we are having absolutelybeautiful weather tainted by
(02:10):
these gosh dang cicadas, yeahand uh.
Thankfully they're almost, Ithink, like they're, they're,
they're sloping downwards, um.
So by the time, dear listener,you hear this, hopefully they
will be just on their way outalmost completely, because, man
they are, they like to ruingarden parties I saw.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I saw some pictures that I looked at and I went
that's a nope.
That's what that is.
That's a classic nope.
Uh, because the person had,like their glass sliding door
and all of the mason work andthe walkway and this really
beautiful cultivated backyardand it was just a wall of
insects and even in a still Icould feel them moving.
(02:54):
They were touching me.
It was not okay.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And the thing is they're so dumb that when they
fly they don't have like a senseof where they're going.
So they're just as likely toavoid you as they are to hit you
.
Like you know some bugs arelike I'm going to steer clear
not cicadas they are.
They're like June bugs, justdumb meaning.
No thoughts, just vibes.
(03:17):
So I guess you didn't have themwhenever you lived in New
England.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I don't recall, no, I don't recall ever having them
and I always just kind ofchalked it up to you know, it's
the nice days are a little bitfewer.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
You know, that nice.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
But where I am now in Ohio, like we just had a really
nice swath of great weather,like you just mentioned, even
today, you know, it was a littlebit cooler, um, so fingers
crossed I think you're probablyfine, I dodged it they haven't
showed up.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, I know somebody from wisconsin who had never
seen them before either, buthaving grown up in missouri, I
have.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
This is my third big wave that I have lived through
um the way you describe them,though, is just like they emerge
and they do their time, andthen they go back.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Sounds like something from.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Supernatural.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, no, we joke that they're like aliens.
They are the most alien speciesI can think of on this planet,
Like you know, other than theones that are like the deep dark
things.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Deep dark ocean.
Yeah, and the deep dark oceanhas some weird stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Can't describe, I can't relate, can't you know?
Speak to that.
But think about like they'rebugs, but they come out in a
specific schedule, like every 13years or every 17 years, and
the way they do it is they comeup out of the ground, like you
know.
Have you read ender's game?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
They just remind me of the bugs in ender's game,
like the they just like thetunnel but I swear to god, there
was a supernaturalnaturalepisode with that too, and I
think they were in fact aliens,so okay.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, and then they, you know they do their thing,
and then they lay eggs in thetrees and then I guess the
larvae like work their way intothe ground again, and then they
13 years later they come backanyway.
So yeah, oh, this is my, thisis my life this will never be
jess and critters bug hour.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
This no sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Wow, we've talked about them forever, so if you,
we can definitely start talkingabout the book if you are
experiencing cicadas, just knowthat I can sympathize this.
As I said, my third wave ofthem, which doesn't make actual
sense to me now that I'mthinking I guess, like the 17,
they, they like overlap weird.
I think there's more than 13and 17 because, yeah, I couldn't
(05:34):
have witnessed three 13 yearbatches.
I'm not that, I'm not of thatage just yet.
So anyways, but I know I'vewitnessed, like one wave I
witnessed as a child, one wave Iwitnessed in college and now
I've got.
Now I've got this one.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
So whatever it's, fine, you go to college out of
state.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Maybe you're impacted by a different I think I was
impacted by a different wave.
I just can't remember.
I just know there's a 13 yearand a 17 year and I can't
remember.
Like what?
Another?
What?
Another increment?
Yeah, another increment?
I'm not sure it doesn't matter.
We've talked about cicadas forfive minutes, so I think we can
move on.
All I just want to say is like,I sympathize with anybody who's
(06:12):
experiencing the cicadas.
I hate them probably just asmuch as you do, unless you like
them.
In which case why?
Unless you just like?
How you know, they apparentlycreate a birthing boon for like
species in areas that thecicadas happen, you know.
So that's good for theenvironment, but I'm still not a
fan and we're gonna move on now, okay, okay, great.
(06:35):
Book four, chapter three theblack gate is closed.
Sam frodo and gollum make it tothe main and presumed only
entrance into mordor, and thegates are very, very much
guarded.
Frodo intends to continue,though, as he has a quest that
he intends to see through.
Gollum begs him not to,suggests he give the ring back
(06:57):
to him and leave, and eventuallysuggests that they go another
way.
What would you have done infrodo's shoes?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I, I don't know.
I thought that it wasincredibly sly of gollum to
suggest that he give it back tohim.
Uh, because, depending on howfar, how much, frodo is
struggling with the burden ofhis quest, that could have
worked.
So in that moment I was likethat is incredibly clever.
(07:30):
I don't know.
I honestly don't know what I'vedone.
I am not particularly clever, Idon't feel so.
If an obstacle like that, howwould I go around?
And until we get to the pointwhere Smeagol starts hinting
that there might be another wayin, and that's where I took a
(07:53):
turn, kind of right along inlockstep with Frodo.
Frodo got very sick ofSmeagol's bull really fast.
He just wasn't answering directquestions.
Is the way guarded or not?
It's the next best viableoption for him and he needs real
information.
(08:13):
And Smeagol is um, what is theword when you're just being so
evasive, smeagol's beingincredibly evasive, being so
evasive is smegel's beingincredibly evasive.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, evasive is a good word, it describes it
perfectly.
Um, so yeah it.
It really raised my hacklesimmediately when spiegel just
slipped in, like just give itback to me, and I'm like, uh,
excuse me.
And then frodo did chime in uhpretty harshly with gollum, uh,
for suggesting that he give himthe ring, telling him he will
never get back and that he isbound by Frodo's commands, which
(08:51):
could end up being to leap froma precipice or cast himself
into flames, like that was kindof so.
This is met with great approvalfrom Sam, who absolutely hates
Gollum, and he thinks to himselfSam does that Frodo is the
wisest being to ever live,except maybe for Gandalf and
(09:12):
Bilbo.
Do you have any more thoughtsabout this, like Frodo turning a
corner on Gollum and all ofthat?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think that it shows the progression.
You know, I feel like the ring.
I don't know.
There's nothing in the bookthat this is substantiated on,
this is just pure vibes.
I feel like the weight of thering takes a greater toll on
them where they are, and so it'smaking him less patient.
(09:39):
Yeah, you start adding in thosecontributing factors of Frodo's
already essentially decidedthat this is a one-way ticket.
Um, frodo knows that this is um,you know this, that this is
going to be his doom.
But ultimately he has to do thething and see it done.
(10:01):
And well, if there's nothingfor it, then might as well get
to it and get it done.
And you know, stay the courseand see it done.
And well, if there's nothingfor it, then might as well get
to it and get it done.
And you know, stay the courseand see it through.
Um, yeah, the other thing is inthis part.
So sam's inner monologue hasnicknamed the two sides of
smeagol as slinker and stinker,which again name calling.
(10:24):
But okay, yeah, and there wasalso some dialogue in there from
the narrator telling us that,and I'm paraphrasing this Sam is
saying it's a good thing.
Smeagol didn't know their trueplan, otherwise he would be
putting up more of a fight andthat kind of stuck out to me
because Frodo made a comp, madethat comment that I think you
(10:46):
commented on in a previousepisode about you know Frodo
saying to Smeagol you know wherewe're going.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, so if Frodo's living under the assumption that
Smeagol knows their mission,yeah, there's a difference
between knowing the mission andknowing where they're going,
because smiegel also madeseveral comments, like you know.
I could just hand you over tosome orcs.
(11:15):
They'll take you there, he's hesaid that several times as if,
like, frodo is heading to mordor, because he's, you know, as if
Sauron has put him on hisstrings and is pulling him
towards him, right.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Sure, I guess I didn't even think of that right.
Like he could be going toMordor at Sauron's request and
going willingly to be a bad guy.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That too, though, distresses him.
I feel like he mentions like wecan't get it back.
That too, though, distresseshim.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I feel like he mentions like we can't get it
back.
If he gets it back, then he'lleat the world, or something.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
It was such a weird way to phrase it.
But even if he like either way,he would be distressed, and so
part of me is like, has he justnot thought about it that hard?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Or is he just in a tough spot and wants to be near
the ring and so he's just goingto guide them as long as he can
until he gets stealing?
Basically, I feel like he'sgonna do whatever it takes,
because he's biding his timeuntil he has an opportunity to
grab the ring.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, that's what it feels like to me too.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So if he didn't know other thing of that is that
smiegel was um as fruto frodo'sgiving Smeagol the business.
You know, sam's internalmonologue is saying how
impressed he is, but he's also alittle shocked, right, like
he's not seen Frodo take thattone or treat anybody in that
way.
Yeah, so I just thought thatthat was noteworthy too, for
(12:41):
sure.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
And I think you're on to something with frodo.
Might just be like losingpatience and becoming like
shorter of temper the closer hegets um, and that the burden is
probably like weighing him downfurther and further.
But I do think I don't thinkthat is, as he showed, ever
going to be like cause him togive up the ring.
She's like I don't, I don'twant it anymore.
Right, because he's still, evenif he hates it, even if he
(13:07):
feels burdened by his task andthe ring, he's still under the
influence of the ring, even ifhe's more immune to it than, say
, smiegel is.
Um, yeah, so he's got a lot ofstuff that he's battling with
right now and I really feel forhim for that.
Um.
So frodo's gonna make thisfinal call where we're going,
(13:28):
where, where's, where's the nextstep?
And, as he's thinking, samwitnesses four great flying
beasts far above more nazgul.
Are we tallying?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
did you tally?
I wrote it down.
I was like winged beastsighting.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, four, count it Four of them.
So men from the south continuetrickling into Mordor.
This has been happening thischapter, not far from where the
party is hiding, and Sam asks ifthey have elephants with them.
When Gollum doesn't know whatthose are, sam trots out a
little rhyme that makes it clearthat Oliphants are just big
(14:07):
elephants, which delights Frodoand rouses him enough to make
the decision to go with Gollumto another location.
Did you enjoy the Oliphant talkand the rhyme?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
I did.
I loved the idea of theOliphants and that Sam is
interested in seeing them.
I loved the rhyme it definitelymade me think of Treebeard and
and their rhymes to rememberspecies and things.
Oh yeah, so that's kind of whatthat put me in mind for and I
absolutely caught myself in themoment kind of just hoping that
(14:40):
Sam gets to see an Oliphant.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, I felt it felt it gave me whenever he was so
excited to see an Oliphant.
Yeah, I felt it felt it gave mewhenever he was so excited to
see the elves, like infellowship, I guess, yeah, it
had happened in fellowship.
It kind of gave me that.
But he's, you know, he's seenelves now and he loved it and
had an amazing time.
And now that this is like thenext step up.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And it's a throwback.
Yeah, first, all of us, next,yeah, and it's a throwback to
that whimsical side of you know.
The childlike joy of this is athing that I have read about and
I'm very interested in, and andjust that pure curiosity
untarnished by you know wherethey are and the gravity of the
situation, um.
So it's nice to see that whimsykind of burble up to the
(15:23):
surface.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Almost aided by where they are right.
Because he was bound to theShire, never left right, hadn't
seen elves, hadn't seen anything.
And now that he's on thisadventure, however terrible, at
least he's got these littleglimmers of hope.
You know, maybe I'll see elves,maybe I'll get an amazing rope,
Maybe I'll find you knowsomething, get an amazing rope.
(15:45):
Maybe I'll find something toeat that isn't lembas bread.
Maybe I'll see some oliphants.
He's got so much I don't know.
I love that he maintains somedegree of hope and curiosity
amidst bad, terrible things allaround him.
Okay, well, that is the end ofthat chapter.
Did you have any final thoughtsor other notes before we move
(16:06):
on?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Just that Gollum had pointed out some things about
Sauron's perspective, thatSauron does not expect an attack
from the south and that heshares.
That Sauron can't seeeverywhere all at once, at least
not yet Properly menacing allat once, at least not yet
(16:29):
properly menacing um, and Ithink even frodo comments about
how much insight he seeminglyhas into sauron um but just
thought it was noteworthy topoint out that uh, a southerly
approach apparently does not isa safe way to approach, because
uh sauron won't expect an attackfrom that direction yeah and
then gollum said I yeah, yeah,gollum, said I.
(16:51):
So at some point things gotheated and, uh, gollum didn't
refer to himself, as gollumdidn't refer to himself as
smiegel referred to himself inthe first person which I believe
is the first time in any of thereading that I have seen him do
so.
I don't think that I have so itI I saw it in the moment and
(17:12):
then immediately, uh, I thinkfrodo calls it out or sam
somebody's internal dialogue,comments on it.
Um, immediately, as it'shappening.
So that was.
That was definitely a standoutmoment yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I can't remember exactly the situation, but I
remember it was smiegel wasgetting like defensive about
something and frodo was like.
Well, he must be telling thetruth, because in his fit of
rage, or whatever he's, he usedthe first person instead of his
like silly, whatever names um.
So yeah, that was definitelynotable and it might have been
the first time.
I don't remember it happeningbefore.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I really don't think it has.
Somebody can prove me wrong.
If somebody has, you know thechops to go through and find it,
but I don't recall in any ofthe dialogue in the cave, you
know, even going back, throwingback to the Hobbit.
I don't think he referred tohimself in the first person at
any point.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I don't think he referred to himself in the first
person at any point.
Fascinating, Okay.
Book four, chapter four ofHerbs and Stewed Rabbit.
So, speaking of Gollum, we keepgetting this pale green light
showing up in Gollum's eyes likea flash of it.
At the beginning of thischapter it's when Gollum is
talking about maybe finallygetting something to eat.
Do you read into the greenlight in Gollum's eyes at all?
(18:28):
What are you?
What are you thinking ishappening with the green light?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
uh, I I hadn't, but now I feel like maybe I should
have been oh, I just, I justnoticed it, it's, it's been
happening this whole book.
His, his eyes are so big and soluminous, anyways, by
description.
Um, the green glint isdefinitely only commented on in
(18:52):
certain instances.
Uh, to your point, I wonder, Iwonder if he's, you know, gonna
get to a point where he'sdesperately hungry and and
things, things will get tensemore tense.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I feel like I've only noticed it and maybe I'm
reading too much into it, but Inotice it and it shows up.
And when it shows up, Iimmediately think, okay, this is
evil gollum, right.
So, like what could he possiblybe thinking?
And at this point he's like youknow, maybe I'll finally get
something to eat.
In my brain.
I was like, oh god, he'stalking about sam, um, and
(19:29):
before, like he would you knowhe'd be like I'm good, whatever.
And then sam would saysomething that to like insult
him, and then there would be agreen light.
So I'm just like, is that himbeing like murder golem?
Like is that the signal, thegreen light?
Like that's just possibly.
I would, I would just keep aneye, keep an eye on it.
I see what you did there,because that is what I'm getting
(19:55):
from it um that's yeah, so Idon't know.
Just just take a look, just Justkeep an eye on it.
All right.
So the party enters arelatively pleasant country,
which surprised me, though it'sstill, of course, in enemy
territory.
Sam asks Gollum to find themsome food, and Frodo takes a nap
(20:16):
as he does.
Sam admires him, noting that heseems to have a light shining
from within, and also murmuringI love him.
Are you still thinking bromancehere?
What kind of love is this, doyou think?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
So I don't know.
Honestly, I think that whetherit's plutonic love or romantic
love, either way it's a verytender moment and I honestly had
chalked it all up to bromanceto this point, but I did walk
away going.
Maybe he really was writingsomething from that perspective.
(20:52):
Um, I think it could playeither way very easily yeah,
that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I feel like, in this case, intent might be one thing
but the way that the readerinterprets it to me, because it
is could so validly beinterpreted as a bromance or
something more romantic justbased on these like extremely
tender moments between them.
Right, who I?
You know I love a lot of myfriends, right, but I would
(21:25):
never watch them sleeping andjust be like I love them.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I mean Like my gosh, but you're also not going
through the perilous experiencethat they're going through not
to take away.
And I have friends that Iplutonically tell them that I
love them.
You know they're absolutelypeople that I have that level of
closeness with.
That.
There's nothing romantic in therelationship.
But I also don't think I wouldnecessarily be sitting there
(21:52):
watching them sleep.
But who knows, in these verydire times what it might come
out to be.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, it could really go either way.
I think, whatever it is, you'reright, it's incredibly tender
and I kind of love that Eitherway, if it's a bromance, but
something that is this oldhaving those moments that, in a
(22:28):
positive light, show this kindof male intimacy, whether it's
romantic or not.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I'm going to go out on a limb and say there wasn't a
lot of that represented on thepage in a positive manner.
Probably not age in a positivemanner.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
so, whether it's plutonic or romantic, it's
positive male intimacy, and I'msure there was a huge lack of it
.
Yeah, so, either way,definitely here for it.
Yeah, it is sweet, it is really, it is very sweet but I?
this is the first time where Iwas like maybe I've been not,
maybe I've been undershooting it, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is
beyond the romance yeah I thinka moment in rivendell also kind
(23:12):
of made me like this is prettytender, if I'm remembering right
, but granted, he thought frodowas gonna die, so like maybe a
reason to be a little moretender.
Either way, Love it either way.
If you listener want to weighin, do you think this is reading
to you more bromance or romance?
Let us know in the comments oron Discord.
(23:34):
Okay, so Gollum brings backsome rabbits and Sam sets in to
make Frodo some stew.
In this exchange between Gollumand Sam we finally get one of
the most quoted lines for myfamily from the movies Taters
what's taters precious?
And po-tay-toes Though boil-em,mash-em, stick-em in a stew
(23:57):
seems to be an inventionstrictly for the movies.
Do you and yours have anyoft-quoted lines from Lord of
the Rings?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
So we say po-tay-toes all the time and so I
highlighted that with little,you know, lols and then gaffer's
delight, so you know it waslike his dad's favorite dish, so
I thought that that was evenmore endearing.
So I think the potatoes isprobably the most quoted line.
(24:26):
Yeah, I'm trying to think ofany other movie quotes that I'm
drawing a blank no, I'm having areally hard time.
I was having a conversation overdinner with mr jessica about
who died and who lived in whichmovie.
Um, and he was kind of pickingon me.
He's like you're killing off alot of people who didn't die in
(24:47):
the movie and I'm like, isn'tthat?
I don't know, it's fine oh yeah, there's.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
There's a lot for me, honestly.
We already talked about theGimli, very dangerous over short
distances.
That one for sure for me,because it applies, and there's
actually one that I've got lateron in my outline that I'll
point out.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
So we can circle back to this.
I love if anybody in yourfamily is willing to participate
and you made a montage of theCritter family favorite loader
moments.
Okay, I think that would make ahell of a TikTok, because I do
know that some of your familyhas done cameos for cupcakes and
(25:29):
stuff they have.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
They have and like favorite characters and whatnot.
That's a good idea.
Well, I'll definitely be seeingthem, probably over Father's
Day and stuff.
So they have, they have beenlike favorite characters and
whatnot they've done.
That's a good idea.
Well, I'll definitely be seeingthem, probably over father's
day.
So, okay, they were lord of therings moments.
I love it.
Um, all right, so they eat thestew, but sam forgot to put the
fire out silly sam.
And it started smoking,attracting some unwanted
(25:53):
visitors Faramir of Gondor andhis men.
At first, the men couldn'tfigure out exactly what Sam and
Frodo were.
Any thoughts about this firstmeeting?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I thought that it was great.
There were two things aboutthem meeting that immediately
stood out to me.
One is that Frodo admits thatGollum is under his care.
Frodo essentially, kind oftangentially, takes ownership of
Gollum.
You know they comment on seeinghim lurking about and you know
(26:29):
he's he's recently met, but heis under my care, and I thought
that that I feel like it couldbe interpreted more than one way
, right, like he's not takingownership or responsibility for
Gollum's behaviors.
But by framing it that way, thathe's under my care, there is a
(26:50):
little bit of a protective slantto it in my mind and I find
that endearing.
So it's again the naivety right, the fact that you think that
Gollum needs protecting and thatyou would even do it because
nobody else would, because youknow, as we've seen, folks who
(27:11):
know him for more than fiveminutes think he should be put
down or whatever.
So I just I think that it waskind of a noble approach from
Frodo, for sure, yeah.
And then the other thing is tohear Faramir's men talk about
him as though he is charmed Fatehas spared him for some other
(27:31):
end and I was like that'sproperly ominous.
Hopefully it's not overshadowor anything too serious.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, that kind of reminded me of like characters
from other books, right, thathad just have this like thing
about them where they're justreally lucky for whatever reason
, which is interesting becausethey they didn't really bring
that up about him in the moviesat all and so far, even in just
(28:01):
this initial meeting, he doesfeel different to me than he
does in the movies.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I do, I do and I do know.
I know a few folks who I thinkFaramir was their least favorite
part of the Peter Jacksoninterpretation.
I've heard some things for somefolks that, for example,
Faramir was one of theirfavorite book characters and
(28:29):
they felt that Peter Jackson didhim dirty.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, having been reminded of him, I wouldn't say
that that's wrong.
You know now that I you knowbecause, again, it's been 20
years.
Of course I've been corruptedby the movies, because I've
watched them so many times.
I had forgotten about all thatFaramir can be, which we'll talk
about further, but like, yeah,he's a different character in
the book than the movie.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
So I'll be interested because I can honestly say
Faramir, I kind of nothinged himin the movies, you know what I
mean.
Yeah, and maybe that's the cruxof the you did him dirty was
that he was kind of underplayed,definitely.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
But we'll see, we'll see, we'll see.
One thing that stuck to me fromthis initial meeting was when
they're trying to figure outwhat the hobbits are, they're
like they can't be elves.
Elves are supposed to bewondrous, fair to look upon and
sam's like really basically Ican hear you.
I'm standing right here it stunga little, I felt.
I felt that on behalf of thehobbits, like why you gotta come
(29:31):
for me, like that.
I mean, is it true?
Sure, absolutely.
But you don't have to say itlike sad, um, okay, so.
So sam and frodo witness afterthey meet the men uh, this is
fair.
Mirror leaves mab lung and damnrod with frodo and sam while
the rest of his men go to fightsome men from the south who were
(29:53):
coming through that area andSam and Frodo witness for the
first time a battle of menagainst men, something they do
not like one bit.
An enemy falls near them andSam wonders what his name was,
where he came from and if he wasreally evil at heart or what
lies or threats got him to go onthe march when he might have
(30:15):
preferred to stay home in peace.
Now I feel like this littlepassage somewhat redeems
Tolkien's othering of the badguys by giving them dark skin
and hair and, in previousdescriptions, slanted eyes.
Although that might have beenthe orcs, the slanted eyes.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That was a lot of thinking of it, but still the
orcs are classified as evil wasa lot of thinking of it, um, but
still, the orcs are classifiedas evil.
Right, right, right anyways but.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
But as far as like the dark skin and stuff he's
suggesting, these people aren'tin fact evil, at least that's
the suggestion that I'm getting.
Even if they're different,they're just products of their
circumstances and the influencesaround them, probably like the
people Tolkien himself foughtagainst in World War I.
That's my reading.
(30:59):
Did you read anything intothese thoughts Sam was having?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
I did, but I didn't go at it from that angle.
But I do think that that'shighly relatable, and I do, even
though we know and have coveredmultiple times that he doesn't
believe in allegory.
I could absolutely see theparallels between.
You're an enlisted man fightinganother enlisted man who is
literally following orders.
You know, it's not evennecessarily that that's your
(31:26):
belief structure.
You are doing as you're told Umand so I do feel that that comes
from a Brothers in Armsperspective and, like I said,
hadn't really thought of it, butI do like your point that it
does humanize them more.
So hopefully that helps on thatcount a little bit.
(31:48):
I was looking at it from.
Is this the first time that Samis seeing a creature he finds
sympathetic dying immediately infront of him?
So and that like, I can workthrough it a little bit.
But so they were attacked byjust orcs, or orcs and men at
(32:11):
the end of the fellowship.
I thought it was just orcs, ororcs and men at the end of the
fellowship.
I thought it was just orcs, soI'm wondering if this is the
first time he's seeing asympathetic character.
You know tabling the problemswith the perceptions on the orc.
Yeah, you know, a human is ahuman and he's made friends with
(32:33):
humans.
Um and so for him to see a manand perceive him as a man and
realize and there's there's areally cool word for that when
you look at a person and yourealize in that moment that they
have an entire lived experiencethank you, you're like there's
a fancy word for it.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I should have looked it up.
I should know.
I love that word.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, sonder, it's a great word, um, and so I thought
that that, and also, again, areally relatable thing, where
something happens in front ofyou and makes you realize that
that person has a wholeexperience that you know nothing
about, and it just suddenlyended in front of you.
Yeah, it was was uh, that'swhere I went in my mind on that
(33:18):
journey no, I think that'sdefinitely a part of it.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It was, um, this didn't really come up in the
movies, right, like they did thelittle raid on the southerners,
but it wasn't.
Sam didn't have any sort ofexistential moment in there, it
just he was excited about theelephants and the bad guys died
and that was that.
Uh, this, this painted it inmuch more gray tones than the
(33:46):
movie paints, because the movieis very black and white.
Bad guys, good guys, right,yeah, um, this made you.
It makes you think.
You know, if you take a second,uh, not everyone who's engaging
in stuff like this wars,whatever would do it if they
were given the choice, rightthey would.
(34:08):
Uh, they wouldn't want to hurtother people, they would just
want to stay home in peace.
Uh, so it's kind of a it's Idon't know it's.
Tolkien doesn't like allegory,but I think he was like no, this
is something we should thinkabout whenever we're engaging in
any sort of conflict.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Or even just subconsciously processing that
part of the experience.
You know, you don't ever knowwhat brought the other person to
their side of the engagement.
They could just have done it sothat there was food on the
table.
You just never know.
And you can go your whole life,you know, just having friends
(34:44):
and family members who aresoldiers, you know you can go
your whole life and you'll neverget that answer.
You won't.
You'll never know.
And that is, you know, know, amind twist for sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Well, on top of that, sam also witnesses something
less disturbing, far moreexciting in all the fonts.
So we find out, thanks to thenarrators, that these things are
way bigger than elephants, uh,that, and they're that are sorry
, than the oliphants that arestill on middle earth.
Elephants, um, and just likemassive, massive things, but
(35:24):
they're clearly just giganticelephants.
How happy for sam were you thathe got to see one ridiculous,
just as hyped when he met theelves.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah right, like just the same level of uh squee of,
just yay, he got it, um, andnobody died you know, like,
because these things soundhumongous and if they were
coming right at you it soundslike it could be pretty
treacherous.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
So yeah, it seemed like it was a pretty close call.
There was like a stray one thatjust kind of like veered off
into the countryside and wasnever heard from again.
That was pretty funny.
Like who knows what happened tohim.
He's just off somewhere, um,yeah, so the sam sees an
oliphant and then settles in fora nap.
Mission accomplished, basically, I guess I told the guards that
(36:12):
they're free to continue onwithout them once faramir gets
back.
Uh, I personally love that.
He doesn't think he's a captive, despite the circumstances.
He's like you guys go ahead.
Like don't wake me up, I'll befine.
Um, but, and that's it for thechapter.
Any final thoughts about thatone?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I had a couple, so at the start of the chapter I had
a little bit of literary umamiand to your point.
It was a pretty landscape, notyucky landscape.
Yep, uh, describing athelion,which is the part of the
countryside that they're in, uh,it is described as open to the
southern airs and the moistwinds from the sea far away.
(36:52):
Many great trees grew there,planted long ago, falling into
untended age amid a riot ofcareless descendants.
And I just was like it's justsuch a great description.
Yeah, you know, a bunch of oldtrees surrounded by younger
trees, but a riot of carelessdescendants.
(37:13):
Just Perfect, perfection, sogood.
Yes, chef kiss.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
A bunch of old trees surrounded by younger trees, but
a riot of careless descendants.
Just Perfect, perfection, sogood.
Yes, chef kiss.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
And then the fact that it, the narrator, takes the
time to point out that Sam is agood cook, even by Hobbit
reckoning, I was like, heck,yeah, he is.
So I got a good little bellychuckle out of that, because of
course he is.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Well, and when he's giving Gollum the instructions
of like, go get this, go getthat, don't bother looking for
potatoes, they're not in season.
Like he also flexed hisgardener muscles a little bit,
right, because he knew whatwould be in season, what
wouldn't be in season.
So yeah, good cook, goodgardener, he's got it all,
basically.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
And I do think that that's a good segue into.
I feel like this is a goodchapter that's relatively low
action but does point out Samhas definitely gotten sassier.
Yeah.
So it's really easy to sit hereand compliment Frodo really kind
of coming into himself, aragornfeeling his oats, all of those
(38:17):
things.
This is a really good time topoint out that Sam has also come
into his own quite a bit andhas opinions and gives them and
enlists Gollum for chores.
Yes, you know, like he neverwould have done that Tells the
guards that you know you canjust leave us behind, don't?
Worry about us.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, we'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, I think that it's a great coming into his own
power moment, so I just thoughtI'd take a timeout and point
that out.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Definitely worthy pointing out.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Okay, and that's all that I had for chapter four.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
All righty, book four , chapter five, the Window on
the West.
Faramir grills Frodo aboutIsildur's bane which, if you'll
recall, he had the same kind ofdream vision, whatever that
Boromir had, that had the rhymethat included Isildur's bane and
the halflings um and.
(39:14):
And he also grills him aboutboromir.
And while frodo resists givingany details about the ring, he's
shocked to learn from faramirthat boromir had passed
boromir's funeral boat, had madeits way to faramir near
osgiliath and silently floatedpast him toward the sea.
The way it was described,glowing with a pale light boat,
(39:36):
almost filled with water, madeit almost seem to me like a
vision rather than the realthing.
Do you think this was reallyBoromir?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I do.
I had chalked it up to the sameinherent magical, up to the
same inherent magical, uh,imbuement, like we saw, with the
rope into the elvish boats also.
I caught myself wondering,because in my mind galadriel is
quite an all-powerful being inher own right.
(40:08):
I'm like, is there any chancethat she's aware?
And because, even by Faramir'sreckoning, there shouldn't be a
path, reasonable path, fromwhere that happened to where
Faramir saw it that the boatwould still be holding water and
all that I mean over Rauros, ifnothing else like a giant
(40:32):
waterfall.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yes, but yeah, over Rauros, if nothing else Like a
giant waterfall.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
So I couldn't help but think that there's some
natural magic that was imbuedinto the boats because they are
of elvish build, and then I dokind of just sit in the back
going.
Maybe Galadriel gave it just alittle oomph, you know, with
whatever her super cool powersare, to make sure that it makes
(40:56):
it to faramir um, and thenfaramir is mentioning.
You know, tidings of death havemany wings.
Nate oft brings news to nearkendred to said boromir was my
brother.
You know just that.
Another one of those aragorngets a lot of those moments.
(41:17):
This is another another personwho is so well spoken that it
just kind of jumped off the pageat me beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, honestly, the way it was described and frodo's
um like skeptic skepticismabout it, made me think twice.
Right, because I I thought itwas just boromir had made its
way.
He made his way down the river,whatever, and then frodo was
like I'm not sure that actually,you know that was actually
there, but whether it was or not, boromir's cloven horn made its
(41:48):
way back to gondor, solidifyinghis demise in their minds.
But now I'm just I'm I kind oflove your idea that, like it was
the magic of the elves and theboat, kind of God, what in
viewing, or what I like, kind ofjust embalming him there and
carrying him the way that heneeded to go.
The you know, however fair ofyour set it right, like in order
(42:11):
to send the tidings to his nearkin.
I now, now, I kind of preferthat, actually that it was him,
and then he continued to the sea.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Galadriel's had enough mention.
Even though she's been such asmall sliver, you know where she
seems to be in the know to acertain extent.
You know, didn't believe thatGandalf was actually dead, just
couldn't see his fate and a fewother things she knew to send
out for them when they were inneed.
(42:41):
Just Galadriel seems to have ahigher level understanding.
She's living at a differentelevation and so I just it suits
my head, canon, that she gaveit a little nudge suits my head
canon that she gave it a littlenudge.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I love that actually.
Um.
So in their conversations frodosorry.
Faramir decides he more or lesstrusts frodo and notes an
elvish air about him.
Let's remember that frodo wasnamed elf friend.
Um faramir's still not quitesure what to do about him,
though, so decides to bring thetwo along with his company for
the time being, when they have alittle bit more privacy.
He apologizes for discussingopenly that what should probably
(43:19):
remain a secret is Sildur'svein.
He's got some pretty strongtheories about what it might be
and some pretty strong wordsabout not wanting it for himself
.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
How are you feeling about Faramir after this more
private?
Conversation.
I want to believe so he's sayingthe right things.
He's not the first person tosay the right things, but I very
much want to believe the thingthat I had at this point.
The Faramir-Frodo interactionback and forth was tight.
(43:55):
It was very good to read.
They were very well matched.
At no point even though Faramiradmits that he was kind of
coming at him hard I felt likeFrodo really did a great job
holding his own.
The whole interaction wasfantastic, filled with tension,
but didn't feel unbalanced.
So what I walked out of, atleast to this part, was I was
(44:18):
like he's very, very wellinformed, even for somebody who
functions essentially as aprince.
Yeah, you know, he knew a heckof a lot more than boromir did,
for sure, and boromir, by myunderstanding, at least to this
point, is a very favored child.
Yeah, you know, faramir readsvery much as a second son, so to
(44:41):
like I said to this point,based on what I know so far.
So he seems remarkably wellinformed compared to his brother
yeah, he's uh, you know, andhe's putting it together Like
he's got.
he's got wheels turning midconversation.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
As a second child, I am happy to claim Faramir.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Let me just put it that way, like yeah, I don't
mean it as slander, but I do.
You know, in these patriarchalsocieties being a second son
comes with a certain reputationand usually not as much access
as favored first sons.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
It's kind of just implied yeah, yeah, but it does
seem like he has taken his lackof favor and, uh, kind of flown
beneath the radar and pursuedhis own you know information and
has kind of hit really close tothe actual mark, which is great
.
And part of that, if I remember, he mentions what did they call
(45:39):
Gandalf?
There was a word for it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Mithrandiel.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
No, but it was like the one the Grey Pilgrim, the
Grey Pilgrim.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
I love that.
Definitely we've seen inwriting before.
I'd have to go back through myhighlights and find it, but it
stood out because I was likewe've heard him called that
before.
I just can't remember by who.
It might have been galadriel,but I'm not 100 sure.
Um, but it exists in myhighlights somewhere.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Okay all right.
Well it, I nothinged it thefirst time and this time I was
like, oh, faramir, like, yeah,admires gandalf, I guess.
So, which is good.
And he, he seems to admire theelves, and so there's just a lot
of things about faramir thiswhole time that I was like, ah
yes, like I do want to believeyou, you like everything you're
saying is the right thing, which, of course, like should get my
(46:28):
guard up because you know silvertongues like look at saruman,
they're not always the bestthing, but he just seems so
sincere, even even like this farin um.
So frodo and sam eventuallyhave to get blindfolded, as the
location faramir was taking themwas secret.
When they get there, they aremet with a beautiful sight at
the entrance.
A thin waterfall is what Igathered.
(46:48):
It was of water reflectingbeautiful colors in the sunset.
Have you seen a waterfall dothis before?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
No, I've actually never seen a waterfall in person
.
It makes me want to though what?
That's not true.
I've seen one.
I've seen one in New Hampshire,yeah, but it wasn't like that.
They're shorter.
We don't have anything thattall around here.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
That is wild Around there.
I don't know where I am anymoreyou gotta uh, so like, pro, tip,
um, as somebody who loves tohike, like, there are pros and
cons for music, for using theall trails app, but one of the
pros is that you can put thingsthat you're looking for and you
can and like in the you knowwhen you're searching for a
trail that you're going to hikeon, and one of the things you
(47:36):
can do is search for a trailwith a waterfall.
So do that, do that.
There's beautiful waterfalls inRocky Mountain National Park.
If you get out to Colorado, Ihave seen the rainbow effect in
Iceland.
There are tons of waterfalls,just absolutely stunning
waterfalls in iceland, and Ithink the big um, there's a big
(47:57):
waterfall at yosemite, and I'mpretty sure it does it too at a
certain time of the day, and solike, of course, all the
instagrammers are there like forthat particular moment.
Sure, um, and I'm I likehesitate to believe that's where
tolkien got the idea from, butthat one is like that, one's
like famous now, at the veryleast.
Um, I'm sure there's somethinglike that where he's from too,
(48:18):
but yeah, I would, I would kindof seek out some waterfalls, man
so we've already earmarked afew uh state parks in ohio I I'm
definitely a state park girly.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
I do like to hike.
I do have to do lower impacthikes than I used to.
Yeah hiking all trails willhelp you search for that too,
like yes, you know, uh, so Iwill definitely look into that.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Thank you you should, you're welcome um, anyways,
yeah, big fan of wheneverwaterfalls have rainbows is what
I'm saying, basically.
Um, and once they got into thislittle stronghold, one scout
reported having seen a smalldark creature swiftly climbing a
tree, which sam immediatelyrecognized as gollum.
He also thought he saw gollumfollowing them previously but
(49:03):
didn't say anything to theguards, thinking it would be
better if no one had to think ofhim.
Would you have done the same?
Speaker 2 (49:10):
no, I would have called it out.
I felt like that was a littleout of character.
Well, I don't know, becauseagain he's just so sour on
gollum, yeah, um, so I guess Ican't really be surprised.
But I was like, why are you,why wouldn't you say something?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
with a sour on gollum that he is, I would.
I would have expected him tosnitch, yes, but the reasoning
that he gave basically just likeI don't ever want to think of
him, why would I want somebodyelse to have to also made sense,
but at the same time, likegollum's still out there, like
you know, like you're basicallyletting him be free by doing
(49:50):
what you're doing, which is notvery sad also.
You get the respite you knowhave the moments without him
true, so it could really goeither way, whether it was in
character or out of character.
I was surprised because Iwouldn't have done it that way,
but I get why he did it the wayhe did it it was just kind of
weird.
yeah, um, but we know that golemis following them.
(50:11):
More or less is the moral ofthat story.
So Faramir and his men, alongwith Frodo and Sam, sat down for
a meal together, but beforethey ate they all turned to the
west for a moment of silence.
They looked to Numenor, thatwas, and beyond, to Elvenholm,
that is, and to that which is anelven home and will ever be.
(50:34):
This, to me, had extremereligion vibes.
How did it hit for you?
Confusing?
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Okay, you, I, I think I wrote in my notes like where,
where is Elvenholm?
Like, just okay, I think thatthat's the first time that I'm
(51:03):
introduced to that concept ofElvenholm.
I can, I, I'm kind of leftimplying that perhaps it is the
mythical place that the elvesmigrated from and potentially
are migrating back to, but Idon't actually know that.
Um and why.
Why do the children of men careso much about elven home?
Speaker 1 (51:28):
but it's a good point , okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So to me, the moment I heard it, I thought first of all this
feels like obscure referencesthat somebody who's casually
reading would have no concept ofwhich now Can confirm.
But so, like in Catholicismreminder that Tolkien was
(51:49):
Catholic there is a prayer thatends as it was, was in the
beginning, is now and ever shallbe, world without end.
So, like the like and will everbe and now and ever shall be.
It just felt like almostheavenly, like afterlife or God
adjacent to me, which I like.
(52:10):
I know that the men of Gondordescended from Numenoreans and
so I can see that they're likeattached to them and they
there's.
You know there's somerelationship there with elves,
but again it is very much likewhy?
Where did this come from?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Nobody else is doing this.
It's done with such gravitasLike there's clear emphasis
placed on it, just no realcontext to speak of.
Just we feel so strongly aboutthis that we're going to stop.
It's like somebody breaking outinto prayer before Thanksgiving
dinner at a house where you'venever heard a prayer given
before, like that's exactly theturkey already in your mouth.
(52:47):
Then you're like, oh, I'm so,I'm so sorry, and you're just
casually putting your fork down.
That's exactly it feels likethat.
Yeah're just casually puttingyour fork down.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
That's exactly it feels like that, yeah, then
that's how it hit me.
Here I am reading the book,just like what?
Like it's a pre pre meal prayer.
Okay, that's a first, but okay,um, great, yeah, cool, uh,
anyway.
So, speaking of numenor, we geta little history of men from
(53:17):
faramir.
After the meal he seemed tohave no real fondness for, like
pure numenoreans, who fell intoevils and folly and seemed more
obsessed with death and the pastthan life.
And then, after that, came thestewards, who I guess I gather
are more of like not just pureNumenor people, and they did
(53:38):
better for themselves forming analliance with men from the
north, the Rohirrim, who theyallied with in battle and
ultimately ceded some land towhich became Rohan.
So from all this history, didanything stand out to you?
Speaker 2 (53:57):
all this history, did anything stand out to you um
the fact that there was anunofficial kind of caste system
aside like they were classifyinghigh, middle and low classes of
men.
Um, so that that was kind ofstrange and it all seemed to be
related to their origin, youknow.
So the new minorians were of ahigher class.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yep, based on these entirely arbitrary standings
from the people who descend fromnew minorians.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, so like we're the, bestest and there ain't
nothing you can say about it.
Yeah, but that's fine, um, sothat stuck out to me also
talking.
Talking about the Numenoreans,there was a comment made in
there about how they hungeredafter endless life unchanging,
which apparently they had leftbehind, and I just wrote what so
(54:47):
kind of like Elvenholm right,kind of like our prayer pause,
just were they immortal?
Are they zombies?
What are what Were they?
immortal.
Are they zombies?
What are you saying?
Were they zombies?
What Are there zombies in Lordof the Rings?
Speaker 1 (55:02):
I mean, we did read about the Barrow.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Wives no spoilers.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, true, we did no spoilers.
That wasn't the Hobbit We'vebeen there.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
That wasn't the Hobbit.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
But they've done that .
And also the kind of sorry no,it's okay.
And the nazgul too yes, they'regiving zombie they are um.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
They can respawn at any save point right, I do say.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
I will say, though, that, like that's literally the
note that I took was they thinkof themselves as the high or men
of the west because of theiraffiliation with Numenoreans and
the Men of Rohan as Middlemen,or of the Twilight gag.
First of all, I don't love that.
But then Faramir admitted thatGondor had more or less fallen
(55:45):
in with the Middlemen.
They had lost their lusterwhich I loved.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
So that's when it got icky for me.
So I was the opposite.
I was like, okay, high, middle,twilight.
Okay, I'm going to ride it outand see what happens.
Because the way that he phrasedit, I think was we have fallen
to the class of middle, orfallen to the class of Rohirrim,
(56:10):
or the way that it was phrasedindicated that he felt that it
was a decline in stature.
And that was where I was like,Ooh, okay, I guess it was really
not any better than it sounded.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
I read it, as I'm not putting us on a pedestal
anymore, cause, like the way helooked at the Numenoreans in the
first place was like these guysweren't all they were cracked
up to be.
They fell into evil.
They were not as wise theydidn't care about.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
the present day.
I'm not going to put us on apedestal anymore, but we used to
be on a pedestal.
Yeah, I feel like we're twoparts of the same sentence.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
Maybe, but I don't think he thinks that they were
worthy of being on a pedestal.
Is what I'm saying.
And yeah, um, he does.
He does mention to your, toyour point, he does mention that
like part of being a middlemanis valuing, like battles and
fighting and all of that stuff.
Because he says, like boromirembodies that side of gondor,
(57:10):
slash rohan, you know, or he didembody it, you know, the
greater than any other man inhis generation or whatever, but
Faramir didn't seem to thinkthat that, like the battles and
stuff, was the greatest thingeither.
So I don't know, I think to meI like it when somebody isn't
holding themselves above others,even if the way they phrase it
(57:34):
is yeah, we've actually comedown a notch from where we used
to be.
I still appreciated it becausehe just felt like he was more
down to earth and not like allhigh and mighty, like more kind
of.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
I agree, he does not.
He does not come across thatway.
It was just oh, I was kind ofhoping that, that that you were
going to redeem it there at theend, but no, it really was as
classist as it sounded okay.
Okay, but I'm not holding hisfeet to the fire over it, I'm
just that's.
That's how that set with me.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
That's fair, um I like how he, um he, he really
clearly knows boromir, you know,which makes sense because they
were brothers.
But when he mentions the uh,the stewards, and how they would
never become kings, and howthat really dissatisfied Boromir
, you know, which makes sensebecause they were brothers.
But when he mentions thestewards and how they would
never become kings and how thatreally dissatisfied Boromir,
like how long do we have to bestewards until we can be kings?
Boromir and Faramir are justtwo very different dudes.
(58:28):
I think Faramir happy to not bea king or whatever, or be a
prince, just be the second sonof a steward.
Boromir wasn't that way.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
No From the get-go.
I think that it would show.
I think that if you havesomebody who is smart and
perceptive, then they would beable to see seeds of that in
their childhood.
So it just spoke to Faramirbeing very perceptive.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Yeah.
So after Faramir took his turntalking about men and their
history, Sam decided to chime inand got pretty worked up about
the elves and Galadriel, and heended up running his mouth about
Boromir and the ring.
How do you feel about how thiswent down?
Speaker 2 (59:17):
I feel that it was a matter of time.
I feel bad for Sam because ifit were me and I had let it slip
, I would feel like absolutegarbage, but I feel like it was
going to happen one way or theother and it might as well
(59:37):
happen with sam, a little tipsy,a little jazzed up about the
elves his sass.
His sass got ahead of him andboy.
Is that relatable?
Speaker 1 (59:46):
true, true.
So in this, in this exchange,um, I promised another quote
that I use all the time, or atleast adopt my own purposes, and
in this case it was a chancefor faramir, captain of gondor,
to show his quality.
So like replace faramir withany applicable name, highly
usable phrase.
So you're about to give yourcat medicine a chance for agni,
(01:00:09):
captain of fluffiness, to showhis quality.
You're about to shoot the finalshot in a game of horse, a
chance for critter, captain ofbasketball, to show her quality.
I use that too much.
It's because a lot of peopledon't even know what the hell
I'm talking about.
Right, but it doesn't matter myjokes just for you is okay,
because I do it all the timeyeah, I got told by a basketball
(01:00:31):
team mate of mine in highschool coinc coincidentally that
I talked different.
It was like because I say stufflike this, right, who says a
chance for Critter, captain ofbasketball, to show her quality?
No one.
No one talks, especially inhigh school because they're
worried about people thinkingthey're weird.
(01:00:52):
Weird, I was not worried, or II didn't know enough to be
worried.
Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
I was walking around quoting shakespeare, so okay
that's fair, all right.
Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
So two different types of yes, but same vibes,
but very niche interests.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
I was passing notes written in uh runes and I was
quoting shakespeare so perfectso we, we all have our thing.
Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Um, but that is one of my one of another one of my
quotes yeah, um.
So faramir did show his quality, though standing by his earlier
statement not if I found it onthe highway would I take it.
So still, he's not.
He's not taking the ring, he'strying to help.
So, for me, this man is gettingup there with Aragorn in the
(01:01:36):
dream in his category.
Personally, how are you feelingabout him right now?
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
This was all very positive, right up to him saying
I don't even want to see it.
I don't even.
And I just was like I have totake it.
He made a comment earlier inthe chapter about I would not
snare even an orc with afalsehood and I was like, ok,
well, we'll wait and see.
(01:02:02):
And here we are, and here we are.
And so by the end of thechapter he has, in fact,
completely won me over.
Ok, he seems really legit.
He seems to really know hisbrother, including his flaws.
And also, as he's talking abouthis brother, I thought that it
was important to point out thathe's pointing out his brother's
(01:02:23):
flaws for lack of a better wordwithout Boromir bashing.
You know what I mean, like in areal way, as somebody who grew
up with you would know you,without it being malicious.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
It's just how it was, mm-hmm, like that's who.
He was Not a bad thing, he wasdevoted to his people.
He was a great warrior, yeah.
So one example of hisdreaminess Frodo caught a
swaying Frodo and carried him tobed, tucked him in and then he
exchanged compliments with sam,calling him master, sam, wise
(01:03:00):
master, like you know how manytimes sam has called frodo
bastard and it's driven usinsane.
Now sam's the master and I lovethat.
Um, sam, in return, tells himthat he has the air of wizards
about him, which I agree becausehe's giving wisdom.
Like, if I had to use one wordto describe faramir, I think I'd
use, I would just say wise um,personally.
So yeah, big fan, huge fan offaramir by the end of this
(01:03:23):
exchange.
Um, so that's it for thischapter.
Do you have any thoughts beforewe pick an mvp?
Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
uh, during sam'suff up, as he's ramping up, he makes
an offhand comment about.
It strikes me that folks thattake their peril with them into
Lorien like just one more kindof plug for Lorien and Galadriel
and it didn't really pertain tothe chapter but I loved to see
(01:03:56):
it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
He's going to defend Galadriel until the day he dies.
He's up there with Gimli.
He just loves the elves.
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
So I found it to be super adorable and so I wanted
to call it out, but I thinkthat's it from this chapter.
Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Alright.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Can I respectfully request that you go first for?
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
once, absolutely.
I have no hesitation.
I choose Faramir, like by amillion.
He is an absolute dreamboat andlike he god, he was trying to
do his best.
Uh, by frodo and sam.
He mentions that he couldliterally I think he says he
could literally be sentenced todeath for, like, allowing them
(01:04:53):
to be there and not taking themstraight to gondor.
Right, but he wants to do theright thing instead of the thing
the law says he needs to do.
Right, it was something likethat that resonated with me so
hard.
Um, and then, when it comesdown to it, he well, before he
even found out what is theelder's bane was, he basically
reasoned it out.
Right, it was something fromback then, um, it can be used
(01:05:16):
whatever.
Somebody found it, the hobbitshave it now.
You're on a mission about it.
Like he had all of like, he'sjust a little detective, um, and
and then he found out what itactually was, didn't even ask to
see it, no questions asked.
I'm gonna, other than, whereare you going?
I'd like to help you just he ishe.
(01:05:37):
Peter jackson did him dirty.
He is.
Yeah, he is an excellent humanbeing, like the pinnacle of men
here, right up there witharagorn and uh, and yeah, I love
to see it.
Big fan of faramir from thesequence.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
so it really did help me to let you go first.
So I was torn between Frodo andFaramir and I'm going to pick
Frodo, not because you pickedFaramir, but your decisiveness,
just for whatever reason, helpedme lock in.
I feel like I have to give itup for Frodo in this read
because he is doing the deed.
(01:06:16):
It is not glorious or glamorousor anything related.
It's not adventurous, it's notfun, it's none of those things,
and it is abundantly clear atthis point in their travel that
it's not.
And he is doing the things.
He is wrestling with himself.
He is keeping an eye on Gollum,trying to find the best path
(01:06:40):
forward, trying to keep an eyeon Sam in his own way.
And just the way that he metFaramir head to head, did not
flinch, did not back down, didnot lie.
There was a part where he saidI did not lie to you and I told
you all of the truth that I feltthat I could, and I was like
heck, yeah.
(01:07:00):
Yeah.
So I really my heart is withFrodo.
Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
this read yeah, it's a strong choice for sure,
without a doubt.
I don't know, faramir just like, was like a beacon of light for
me, but I totally get the Frodochoice, as always.
Those of you listening, if youwant to weigh in on the MVP,
feel free to tweet us or let usknow in the comments on YouTube,
or get into the Discord.
(01:07:25):
Let us know who your personalMVP is, because I love hearing
your all's takes, even ifthey're not the same as mine.
I promise it doesn't upset meat all.
Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
So that's it for us tonight.
We would ask you for next weekto please read book four,
chapters six through eight.
We both want to say thank youso much for tuning in to episode
six of season three of but Arethere Dragons Brought to you by
your hosts, jessica Sadai andcritter XD.
Please don't forget to followus at butter their dragons on
(01:07:58):
YouTube, instagram and Tik TOKand.
But dragons just one T on X,but dragons pod.
I do that every time Dragons pod.
Just one T on X.
You can also find us on socialmedia as critter XD and Shelf
Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We are going to continue toworkshop new catchphrases
(01:08:20):
through season three, so let usknow, on social media or in the
discord, how you feel about thisone.
Farewell, dear listener.
We must each go swiftly on theways appointed to us.
Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Two Towers by JRR Tolkien,
with me as a resident Lord ofthe Rings veteran, and me as the
Tolkien first timer In this oursixth episode of season three.
(00:30):
We're going to discuss book four, chapters three through five,
before we dive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Good, summer is pretty much here and all that
that entails, so ready to hopinto it.
How about you?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Is where you are.
Are there cicadas?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
There are not cicadas , but I haven't been here very
long and I keep meaning to askif cicadas might come here.
I kind of need to find out.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Well, if they're on the same calendar schedule as
the cicadas where I am, which isSt Louis, they're on their way
out.
We hit peak cicada probablyabout a week ago.
It has been wild.
They're still everywhere.
So do they go east, west,wherever the heck they want?
I, it's my understanding thatthey just like emerge around the
(01:25):
same time and then they go awayafter like four or five weeks.
Obviously I am not a.
What is the word?
I'm not honest.
No, yeah, no, oh, what I know?
The word entomologist bugsright entomologist bugs.
It might be entomologist.
That one's gonna make me madthat I can't think of it, but
(01:49):
you might be right, you might beright um, either way, let us
know in the comments we're wrong.
I'm definitely gonna look it upafter this.
But uh, I'm no bug expert and itmight depend on the climate,
right, it might depend onlongitude, latitude, situation,
like you, know, because, fromwhat I understand, they like to
come out during the best time ofthe year and by golly they have
, like we are having absolutelybeautiful weather tainted by
(02:10):
these gosh dang cicadas, yeahand uh.
Thankfully they're almost, Ithink, like they're, they're,
they're sloping downwards, um.
So by the time, dear listener,you hear this, hopefully they
will be just on their way outalmost completely, because, man
they are, they like to ruingarden parties I saw.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I saw some pictures that I looked at and I went
that's a nope.
That's what that is.
That's a classic nope.
Uh, because the person had,like their glass sliding door
and all of the mason work andthe walkway and this really
beautiful cultivated backyardand it was just a wall of
insects and even in a still Icould feel them moving.
(02:54):
They were touching me.
It was not okay.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And the thing is they're so dumb that when they
fly they don't have like a senseof where they're going.
So they're just as likely toavoid you as they are to hit you
.
Like you know some bugs arelike I'm going to steer clear
not cicadas they are.
They're like June bugs, justdumb meaning.
No thoughts, just vibes.
(03:17):
So I guess you didn't have themwhenever you lived in New
England.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I don't recall, no, I don't recall ever having them
and I always just kind ofchalked it up to you know, it's
the nice days are a little bitfewer.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
You know, that nice.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
But where I am now in Ohio, like we just had a really
nice swath of great weather,like you just mentioned, even
today, you know, it was a littlebit cooler, um, so fingers
crossed I think you're probablyfine, I dodged it they haven't
showed up.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, I know somebody from wisconsin who had never
seen them before either, buthaving grown up in missouri, I
have.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
This is my third big wave that I have lived through
um the way you describe them,though, is just like they emerge
and they do their time, andthen they go back.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Sounds like something from.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Supernatural.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, no, we joke that they're like aliens.
They are the most alien speciesI can think of on this planet,
Like you know, other than theones that are like the deep dark
things.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Deep dark ocean.
Yeah, and the deep dark oceanhas some weird stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Can't describe, I can't relate, can't you know?
Speak to that.
But think about like they'rebugs, but they come out in a
specific schedule, like every 13years or every 17 years, and
the way they do it is they comeup out of the ground, like you
know.
Have you read ender's game?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
They just remind me of the bugs in ender's game,
like the they just like thetunnel but I swear to god, there
was a supernaturalnaturalepisode with that too, and I
think they were in fact aliens,so okay.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, and then they, you know they do their thing,
and then they lay eggs in thetrees and then I guess the
larvae like work their way intothe ground again, and then they
13 years later they come backanyway.
So yeah, oh, this is my, thisis my life this will never be
jess and critters bug hour.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
This no sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Wow, we've talked about them forever, so if you,
we can definitely start talkingabout the book if you are
experiencing cicadas, just knowthat I can sympathize this.
As I said, my third wave ofthem, which doesn't make actual
sense to me now that I'mthinking I guess, like the 17,
they, they like overlap weird.
I think there's more than 13and 17 because, yeah, I couldn't
(05:34):
have witnessed three 13 yearbatches.
I'm not that, I'm not of thatage just yet.
So anyways, but I know I'vewitnessed, like one wave I
witnessed as a child, one wave Iwitnessed in college and now
I've got.
Now I've got this one.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
So whatever it's, fine, you go to college out of
state.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Maybe you're impacted by a different I think I was
impacted by a different wave.
I just can't remember.
I just know there's a 13 yearand a 17 year and I can't
remember.
Like what?
Another?
What?
Another increment?
Yeah, another increment?
I'm not sure it doesn't matter.
We've talked about cicadas forfive minutes, so I think we can
move on.
All I just want to say is like,I sympathize with anybody who's
(06:12):
experiencing the cicadas.
I hate them probably just asmuch as you do, unless you like
them.
In which case why?
Unless you just like?
How you know, they apparentlycreate a birthing boon for like
species in areas that thecicadas happen, you know.
So that's good for theenvironment, but I'm still not a
fan and we're gonna move on now, okay, okay, great.
(06:35):
Book four, chapter three theblack gate is closed.
Sam frodo and gollum make it tothe main and presumed only
entrance into mordor, and thegates are very, very much
guarded.
Frodo intends to continue,though, as he has a quest that
he intends to see through.
Gollum begs him not to,suggests he give the ring back
(06:57):
to him and leave, and eventuallysuggests that they go another
way.
What would you have done infrodo's shoes?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I, I don't know.
I thought that it wasincredibly sly of gollum to
suggest that he give it back tohim.
Uh, because, depending on howfar, how much, frodo is
struggling with the burden ofhis quest, that could have
worked.
So in that moment I was likethat is incredibly clever.
(07:30):
I don't know.
I honestly don't know what I'vedone.
I am not particularly clever, Idon't feel so.
If an obstacle like that, howwould I go around?
And until we get to the pointwhere Smeagol starts hinting
that there might be another wayin, and that's where I took a
(07:53):
turn, kind of right along inlockstep with Frodo.
Frodo got very sick ofSmeagol's bull really fast.
He just wasn't answering directquestions.
Is the way guarded or not?
It's the next best viableoption for him and he needs real
information.
(08:13):
And Smeagol is um, what is theword when you're just being so
evasive, smeagol's beingincredibly evasive, being so
evasive is smegel's beingincredibly evasive.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, evasive is a good word, it describes it
perfectly.
Um, so yeah it.
It really raised my hacklesimmediately when spiegel just
slipped in, like just give itback to me, and I'm like, uh,
excuse me.
And then frodo did chime in uhpretty harshly with gollum, uh,
for suggesting that he give himthe ring, telling him he will
never get back and that he isbound by Frodo's commands, which
(08:51):
could end up being to leap froma precipice or cast himself
into flames, like that was kindof so.
This is met with great approvalfrom Sam, who absolutely hates
Gollum, and he thinks to himselfSam does that Frodo is the
wisest being to ever live,except maybe for Gandalf and
(09:12):
Bilbo.
Do you have any more thoughtsabout this, like Frodo turning a
corner on Gollum and all ofthat?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think that it shows the progression.
You know, I feel like the ring.
I don't know.
There's nothing in the bookthat this is substantiated on,
this is just pure vibes.
I feel like the weight of thering takes a greater toll on
them where they are, and so it'smaking him less patient.
(09:39):
Yeah, you start adding in thosecontributing factors of Frodo's
already essentially decidedthat this is a one-way ticket.
Um, frodo knows that this is um,you know this, that this is
going to be his doom.
But ultimately he has to do thething and see it done.
(10:01):
And well, if there's nothingfor it, then might as well get
to it and get it done.
And you know, stay the courseand see it done.
And well, if there's nothingfor it, then might as well get
to it and get it done.
And you know, stay the courseand see it through.
Um, yeah, the other thing is inthis part.
So sam's inner monologue hasnicknamed the two sides of
smeagol as slinker and stinker,which again name calling.
(10:24):
But okay, yeah, and there wasalso some dialogue in there from
the narrator telling us that,and I'm paraphrasing this Sam is
saying it's a good thing.
Smeagol didn't know their trueplan, otherwise he would be
putting up more of a fight andthat kind of stuck out to me
because Frodo made a comp, madethat comment that I think you
(10:46):
commented on in a previousepisode about you know Frodo
saying to Smeagol you know wherewe're going.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, so if Frodo's living under the assumption that
Smeagol knows their mission,yeah, there's a difference
between knowing the mission andknowing where they're going,
because smiegel also madeseveral comments, like you know.
I could just hand you over tosome orcs.
(11:15):
They'll take you there, he's hesaid that several times as if,
like, frodo is heading to mordor, because he's, you know, as if
Sauron has put him on hisstrings and is pulling him
towards him, right.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Sure, I guess I didn't even think of that right.
Like he could be going toMordor at Sauron's request and
going willingly to be a bad guy.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That too, though, distresses him.
I feel like he mentions like wecan't get it back.
That too, though, distresseshim.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I feel like he mentions like we can't get it
back.
If he gets it back, then he'lleat the world, or something.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
It was such a weird way to phrase it.
But even if he like either way,he would be distressed, and so
part of me is like, has he justnot thought about it that hard?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Or is he just in a tough spot and wants to be near
the ring and so he's just goingto guide them as long as he can
until he gets stealing?
Basically, I feel like he'sgonna do whatever it takes,
because he's biding his timeuntil he has an opportunity to
grab the ring.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, that's what it feels like to me too.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So if he didn't know other thing of that is that
smiegel was um as fruto frodo'sgiving Smeagol the business.
You know, sam's internalmonologue is saying how
impressed he is, but he's also alittle shocked, right, like
he's not seen Frodo take thattone or treat anybody in that
way.
Yeah, so I just thought thatthat was noteworthy too, for
(12:41):
sure.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
And I think you're on to something with frodo.
Might just be like losingpatience and becoming like
shorter of temper the closer hegets um, and that the burden is
probably like weighing him downfurther and further.
But I do think I don't thinkthat is, as he showed, ever
going to be like cause him togive up the ring.
She's like I don't, I don'twant it anymore.
Right, because he's still, evenif he hates it, even if he
(13:07):
feels burdened by his task andthe ring, he's still under the
influence of the ring, even ifhe's more immune to it than, say
, smiegel is.
Um, yeah, so he's got a lot ofstuff that he's battling with
right now and I really feel forhim for that.
Um.
So frodo's gonna make thisfinal call where we're going,
(13:28):
where, where's, where's the nextstep?
And, as he's thinking, samwitnesses four great flying
beasts far above more nazgul.
Are we tallying?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
did you tally?
I wrote it down.
I was like winged beastsighting.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, four, count it Four of them.
So men from the south continuetrickling into Mordor.
This has been happening thischapter, not far from where the
party is hiding, and Sam asks ifthey have elephants with them.
When Gollum doesn't know whatthose are, sam trots out a
little rhyme that makes it clearthat Oliphants are just big
(14:07):
elephants, which delights Frodoand rouses him enough to make
the decision to go with Gollumto another location.
Did you enjoy the Oliphant talkand the rhyme?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
I did.
I loved the idea of theOliphants and that Sam is
interested in seeing them.
I loved the rhyme it definitelymade me think of Treebeard and
and their rhymes to rememberspecies and things.
Oh yeah, so that's kind of whatthat put me in mind for and I
absolutely caught myself in themoment kind of just hoping that
(14:40):
Sam gets to see an Oliphant.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, I felt it felt it gave me whenever he was so
excited to see an Oliphant.
Yeah, I felt it felt it gave mewhenever he was so excited to
see the elves, like infellowship, I guess, yeah, it
had happened in fellowship.
It kind of gave me that.
But he's, you know, he's seenelves now and he loved it and
had an amazing time.
And now that this is like thenext step up.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And it's a throwback.
Yeah, first, all of us, next,yeah, and it's a throwback to
that whimsical side of you know.
The childlike joy of this is athing that I have read about and
I'm very interested in, and andjust that pure curiosity
untarnished by you know wherethey are and the gravity of the
situation, um.
So it's nice to see that whimsykind of burble up to the
(15:23):
surface.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Almost aided by where they are right.
Because he was bound to theShire, never left right, hadn't
seen elves, hadn't seen anything.
And now that he's on thisadventure, however terrible, at
least he's got these littleglimmers of hope.
You know, maybe I'll see elves,maybe I'll get an amazing rope,
Maybe I'll find you knowsomething, get an amazing rope.
(15:45):
Maybe I'll find something toeat that isn't lembas bread.
Maybe I'll see some oliphants.
He's got so much I don't know.
I love that he maintains somedegree of hope and curiosity
amidst bad, terrible things allaround him.
Okay, well, that is the end ofthat chapter.
Did you have any final thoughtsor other notes before we move
(16:06):
on?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Just that Gollum had pointed out some things about
Sauron's perspective, thatSauron does not expect an attack
from the south and that heshares.
That Sauron can't seeeverywhere all at once, at least
not yet Properly menacing allat once, at least not yet
(16:29):
properly menacing um, and Ithink even frodo comments about
how much insight he seeminglyhas into sauron um but just
thought it was noteworthy topoint out that uh, a southerly
approach apparently does not isa safe way to approach, because
uh sauron won't expect an attackfrom that direction yeah and
then gollum said I yeah, yeah,gollum, said I.
(16:51):
So at some point things gotheated and, uh, gollum didn't
refer to himself, as gollumdidn't refer to himself as
smiegel referred to himself inthe first person which I believe
is the first time in any of thereading that I have seen him do
so.
I don't think that I have so itI I saw it in the moment and
(17:12):
then immediately, uh, I thinkfrodo calls it out or sam
somebody's internal dialogue,comments on it.
Um, immediately, as it'shappening.
So that was.
That was definitely a standoutmoment yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I can't remember exactly the situation, but I
remember it was smiegel wasgetting like defensive about
something and frodo was like.
Well, he must be telling thetruth, because in his fit of
rage, or whatever he's, he usedthe first person instead of his
like silly, whatever names um.
So yeah, that was definitelynotable and it might have been
the first time.
I don't remember it happeningbefore.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I really don't think it has.
Somebody can prove me wrong.
If somebody has, you know thechops to go through and find it,
but I don't recall in any ofthe dialogue in the cave, you
know, even going back, throwingback to the Hobbit.
I don't think he referred tohimself in the first person at
any point.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I don't think he referred to himself in the first
person at any point.
Fascinating, Okay.
Book four, chapter four ofHerbs and Stewed Rabbit.
So, speaking of Gollum, we keepgetting this pale green light
showing up in Gollum's eyes likea flash of it.
At the beginning of thischapter it's when Gollum is
talking about maybe finallygetting something to eat.
Do you read into the greenlight in Gollum's eyes at all?
(18:28):
What are you?
What are you thinking ishappening with the green light?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
uh, I I hadn't, but now I feel like maybe I should
have been oh, I just, I justnoticed it, it's, it's been
happening this whole book.
His, his eyes are so big and soluminous, anyways, by
description.
Um, the green glint isdefinitely only commented on in
(18:52):
certain instances.
Uh, to your point, I wonder, Iwonder if he's, you know, gonna
get to a point where he'sdesperately hungry and and
things, things will get tensemore tense.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I feel like I've only noticed it and maybe I'm
reading too much into it, but Inotice it and it shows up.
And when it shows up, Iimmediately think, okay, this is
evil gollum, right.
So, like what could he possiblybe thinking?
And at this point he's like youknow, maybe I'll finally get
something to eat.
In my brain.
I was like, oh god, he'stalking about sam, um, and
(19:29):
before, like he would you knowhe'd be like I'm good, whatever.
And then sam would saysomething that to like insult
him, and then there would be agreen light.
So I'm just like, is that himbeing like murder golem?
Like is that the signal, thegreen light?
Like that's just possibly.
I would, I would just keep aneye, keep an eye on it.
I see what you did there,because that is what I'm getting
(19:55):
from it um that's yeah, so Idon't know.
Just just take a look, just Justkeep an eye on it.
All right.
So the party enters arelatively pleasant country,
which surprised me, though it'sstill, of course, in enemy
territory.
Sam asks Gollum to find themsome food, and Frodo takes a nap
(20:16):
as he does.
Sam admires him, noting that heseems to have a light shining
from within, and also murmuringI love him.
Are you still thinking bromancehere?
What kind of love is this, doyou think?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
So I don't know.
Honestly, I think that whetherit's plutonic love or romantic
love, either way it's a verytender moment and I honestly had
chalked it all up to bromanceto this point, but I did walk
away going.
Maybe he really was writingsomething from that perspective.
(20:52):
Um, I think it could playeither way very easily yeah,
that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I feel like, in this case, intent might be one thing
but the way that the readerinterprets it to me, because it
is could so validly beinterpreted as a bromance or
something more romantic justbased on these like extremely
tender moments between them.
Right, who I?
You know I love a lot of myfriends, right, but I would
(21:25):
never watch them sleeping andjust be like I love them.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I mean Like my gosh, but you're also not going
through the perilous experiencethat they're going through not
to take away.
And I have friends that Iplutonically tell them that I
love them.
You know they're absolutelypeople that I have that level of
closeness with.
That.
There's nothing romantic in therelationship.
But I also don't think I wouldnecessarily be sitting there
(21:52):
watching them sleep.
But who knows, in these verydire times what it might come
out to be.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, it could really go either way.
I think, whatever it is, you'reright, it's incredibly tender
and I kind of love that Eitherway, if it's a bromance, but
something that is this oldhaving those moments that, in a
(22:28):
positive light, show this kindof male intimacy, whether it's
romantic or not.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I'm going to go out on a limb and say there wasn't a
lot of that represented on thepage in a positive manner.
Probably not age in a positivemanner.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
so, whether it's plutonic or romantic, it's
positive male intimacy, and I'msure there was a huge lack of it
.
Yeah, so, either way,definitely here for it.
Yeah, it is sweet, it is really, it is very sweet but I?
this is the first time where Iwas like maybe I've been not,
maybe I've been undershooting it, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is
beyond the romance yeah I thinka moment in rivendell also kind
(23:12):
of made me like this is prettytender, if I'm remembering right
, but granted, he thought frodowas gonna die, so like maybe a
reason to be a little moretender.
Either way, Love it either way.
If you listener want to weighin, do you think this is reading
to you more bromance or romance?
Let us know in the comments oron Discord.
(23:34):
Okay, so Gollum brings backsome rabbits and Sam sets in to
make Frodo some stew.
In this exchange between Gollumand Sam we finally get one of
the most quoted lines for myfamily from the movies Taters
what's taters precious?
And po-tay-toes Though boil-em,mash-em, stick-em in a stew
(23:57):
seems to be an inventionstrictly for the movies.
Do you and yours have anyoft-quoted lines from Lord of
the Rings?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
So we say po-tay-toes all the time and so I
highlighted that with little,you know, lols and then gaffer's
delight, so you know it waslike his dad's favorite dish, so
I thought that that was evenmore endearing.
So I think the potatoes isprobably the most quoted line.
(24:26):
Yeah, I'm trying to think ofany other movie quotes that I'm
drawing a blank no, I'm having areally hard time.
I was having a conversation overdinner with mr jessica about
who died and who lived in whichmovie.
Um, and he was kind of pickingon me.
He's like you're killing off alot of people who didn't die in
(24:47):
the movie and I'm like, isn'tthat?
I don't know, it's fine oh yeah, there's.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
There's a lot for me, honestly.
We already talked about theGimli, very dangerous over short
distances.
That one for sure for me,because it applies, and there's
actually one that I've got lateron in my outline that I'll
point out.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
So we can circle back to this.
I love if anybody in yourfamily is willing to participate
and you made a montage of theCritter family favorite loader
moments.
Okay, I think that would make ahell of a TikTok, because I do
know that some of your familyhas done cameos for cupcakes and
(25:29):
stuff they have.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
They have and like favorite characters and whatnot.
That's a good idea.
Well, I'll definitely be seeingthem, probably over Father's
Day and stuff.
So they have, they have beenlike favorite characters and
whatnot they've done.
That's a good idea.
Well, I'll definitely be seeingthem, probably over father's
day.
So, okay, they were lord of therings moments.
I love it.
Um, all right, so they eat thestew, but sam forgot to put the
fire out silly sam.
And it started smoking,attracting some unwanted
(25:53):
visitors Faramir of Gondor andhis men.
At first, the men couldn'tfigure out exactly what Sam and
Frodo were.
Any thoughts about this firstmeeting?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I thought that it was great.
There were two things aboutthem meeting that immediately
stood out to me.
One is that Frodo admits thatGollum is under his care.
Frodo essentially, kind oftangentially, takes ownership of
Gollum.
You know they comment on seeinghim lurking about and you know
(26:29):
he's he's recently met, but heis under my care, and I thought
that that I feel like it couldbe interpreted more than one way
, right, like he's not takingownership or responsibility for
Gollum's behaviors.
But by framing it that way, thathe's under my care, there is a
(26:50):
little bit of a protective slantto it in my mind and I find
that endearing.
So it's again the naivety right, the fact that you think that
Gollum needs protecting and thatyou would even do it because
nobody else would, because youknow, as we've seen, folks who
(27:11):
know him for more than fiveminutes think he should be put
down or whatever.
So I just I think that it waskind of a noble approach from
Frodo, for sure, yeah.
And then the other thing is tohear Faramir's men talk about
him as though he is charmed Fatehas spared him for some other
(27:31):
end and I was like that'sproperly ominous.
Hopefully it's not overshadowor anything too serious.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, that kind of reminded me of like characters
from other books, right, thathad just have this like thing
about them where they're justreally lucky for whatever reason
, which is interesting becausethey they didn't really bring
that up about him in the moviesat all and so far, even in just
(28:01):
this initial meeting, he doesfeel different to me than he
does in the movies.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I do, I do and I do know.
I know a few folks who I thinkFaramir was their least favorite
part of the Peter Jacksoninterpretation.
I've heard some things for somefolks that, for example,
Faramir was one of theirfavorite book characters and
(28:29):
they felt that Peter Jackson didhim dirty.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, having been reminded of him, I wouldn't say
that that's wrong.
You know now that I you knowbecause, again, it's been 20
years.
Of course I've been corruptedby the movies, because I've
watched them so many times.
I had forgotten about all thatFaramir can be, which we'll talk
about further, but like, yeah,he's a different character in
the book than the movie.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
So I'll be interested because I can honestly say
Faramir, I kind of nothinged himin the movies, you know what I
mean.
Yeah, and maybe that's the cruxof the you did him dirty was
that he was kind of underplayed,definitely.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
But we'll see, we'll see, we'll see.
One thing that stuck to me fromthis initial meeting was when
they're trying to figure outwhat the hobbits are, they're
like they can't be elves.
Elves are supposed to bewondrous, fair to look upon and
sam's like really basically Ican hear you.
I'm standing right here it stunga little, I felt.
I felt that on behalf of thehobbits, like why you gotta come
(29:31):
for me, like that.
I mean, is it true?
Sure, absolutely.
But you don't have to say itlike sad, um, okay, so.
So sam and frodo witness afterthey meet the men uh, this is
fair.
Mirror leaves mab lung and damnrod with frodo and sam while
the rest of his men go to fightsome men from the south who were
(29:53):
coming through that area andSam and Frodo witness for the
first time a battle of menagainst men, something they do
not like one bit.
An enemy falls near them andSam wonders what his name was,
where he came from and if he wasreally evil at heart or what
lies or threats got him to go onthe march when he might have
(30:15):
preferred to stay home in peace.
Now I feel like this littlepassage somewhat redeems
Tolkien's othering of the badguys by giving them dark skin
and hair and, in previousdescriptions, slanted eyes.
Although that might have beenthe orcs, the slanted eyes.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That was a lot of thinking of it, but still the
orcs are classified as evil wasa lot of thinking of it, um, but
still, the orcs are classifiedas evil.
Right, right, right anyways but.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
But as far as like the dark skin and stuff he's
suggesting, these people aren'tin fact evil, at least that's
the suggestion that I'm getting.
Even if they're different,they're just products of their
circumstances and the influencesaround them, probably like the
people Tolkien himself foughtagainst in World War I.
That's my reading.
(30:59):
Did you read anything intothese thoughts Sam was having?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
I did, but I didn't go at it from that angle.
But I do think that that'shighly relatable, and I do, even
though we know and have coveredmultiple times that he doesn't
believe in allegory.
I could absolutely see theparallels between.
You're an enlisted man fightinganother enlisted man who is
literally following orders.
You know, it's not evennecessarily that that's your
(31:26):
belief structure.
You are doing as you're told Umand so I do feel that that comes
from a Brothers in Armsperspective and, like I said,
hadn't really thought of it, butI do like your point that it
does humanize them more.
So hopefully that helps on thatcount a little bit.
(31:48):
I was looking at it from.
Is this the first time that Samis seeing a creature he finds
sympathetic dying immediately infront of him?
So and that like, I can workthrough it a little bit.
But so they were attacked byjust orcs, or orcs and men at
(32:11):
the end of the fellowship.
I thought it was just orcs, ororcs and men at the end of the
fellowship.
I thought it was just orcs, soI'm wondering if this is the
first time he's seeing asympathetic character.
You know tabling the problemswith the perceptions on the orc.
Yeah, you know, a human is ahuman and he's made friends with
(32:33):
humans.
Um and so for him to see a manand perceive him as a man and
realize and there's there's areally cool word for that when
you look at a person and yourealize in that moment that they
have an entire lived experiencethank you, you're like there's
a fancy word for it.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I should have looked it up.
I should know.
I love that word.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, sonder, it's a great word, um, and so I thought
that that, and also, again, areally relatable thing, where
something happens in front ofyou and makes you realize that
that person has a wholeexperience that you know nothing
about, and it just suddenlyended in front of you.
Yeah, it was was uh, that'swhere I went in my mind on that
(33:18):
journey no, I think that'sdefinitely a part of it.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It was, um, this didn't really come up in the
movies, right, like they did thelittle raid on the southerners,
but it wasn't.
Sam didn't have any sort ofexistential moment in there, it
just he was excited about theelephants and the bad guys died
and that was that.
Uh, this, this painted it inmuch more gray tones than the
(33:46):
movie paints, because the movieis very black and white.
Bad guys, good guys, right,yeah, um, this made you.
It makes you think.
You know, if you take a second,uh, not everyone who's engaging
in stuff like this wars,whatever would do it if they
were given the choice, rightthey would.
(34:08):
Uh, they wouldn't want to hurtother people, they would just
want to stay home in peace.
Uh, so it's kind of a it's Idon't know it's.
Tolkien doesn't like allegory,but I think he was like no, this
is something we should thinkabout whenever we're engaging in
any sort of conflict.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Or even just subconsciously processing that
part of the experience.
You know, you don't ever knowwhat brought the other person to
their side of the engagement.
They could just have done it sothat there was food on the
table.
You just never know.
And you can go your whole life,you know, just having friends
(34:44):
and family members who aresoldiers, you know you can go
your whole life and you'll neverget that answer.
You won't.
You'll never know.
And that is, you know, know, amind twist for sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Well, on top of that, sam also witnesses something
less disturbing, far moreexciting in all the fonts.
So we find out, thanks to thenarrators, that these things are
way bigger than elephants, uh,that, and they're that are sorry
, than the oliphants that arestill on middle earth.
Elephants, um, and just likemassive, massive things, but
(35:24):
they're clearly just giganticelephants.
How happy for sam were you thathe got to see one ridiculous,
just as hyped when he met theelves.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah right, like just the same level of uh squee of,
just yay, he got it, um, andnobody died you know, like,
because these things soundhumongous and if they were
coming right at you it soundslike it could be pretty
treacherous.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
So yeah, it seemed like it was a pretty close call.
There was like a stray one thatjust kind of like veered off
into the countryside and wasnever heard from again.
That was pretty funny.
Like who knows what happened tohim.
He's just off somewhere, um,yeah, so the sam sees an
oliphant and then settles in fora nap.
Mission accomplished, basically, I guess I told the guards that
(36:12):
they're free to continue onwithout them once faramir gets
back.
Uh, I personally love that.
He doesn't think he's a captive, despite the circumstances.
He's like you guys go ahead.
Like don't wake me up, I'll befine.
Um, but, and that's it for thechapter.
Any final thoughts about thatone?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I had a couple, so at the start of the chapter I had
a little bit of literary umamiand to your point.
It was a pretty landscape, notyucky landscape.
Yep, uh, describing athelion,which is the part of the
countryside that they're in, uh,it is described as open to the
southern airs and the moistwinds from the sea far away.
(36:52):
Many great trees grew there,planted long ago, falling into
untended age amid a riot ofcareless descendants.
And I just was like it's justsuch a great description.
Yeah, you know, a bunch of oldtrees surrounded by younger
trees, but a riot of carelessdescendants.
(37:13):
Just Perfect, perfection, sogood.
Yes, chef kiss.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
A bunch of old trees surrounded by younger trees, but
a riot of careless descendants.
Just Perfect, perfection, sogood.
Yes, chef kiss.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
And then the fact that it, the narrator, takes the
time to point out that Sam is agood cook, even by Hobbit
reckoning, I was like, heck,yeah, he is.
So I got a good little bellychuckle out of that, because of
course he is.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Well, and when he's giving Gollum the instructions
of like, go get this, go getthat, don't bother looking for
potatoes, they're not in season.
Like he also flexed hisgardener muscles a little bit,
right, because he knew whatwould be in season, what
wouldn't be in season.
So yeah, good cook, goodgardener, he's got it all,
basically.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
And I do think that that's a good segue into.
I feel like this is a goodchapter that's relatively low
action but does point out Samhas definitely gotten sassier.
Yeah.
So it's really easy to sit hereand compliment Frodo really kind
of coming into himself, aragornfeeling his oats, all of those
(38:17):
things.
This is a really good time topoint out that Sam has also come
into his own quite a bit andhas opinions and gives them and
enlists Gollum for chores.
Yes, you know, like he neverwould have done that Tells the
guards that you know you canjust leave us behind, don't?
Worry about us.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, we'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, I think that it's a great coming into his own
power moment, so I just thoughtI'd take a timeout and point
that out.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Definitely worthy pointing out.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Okay, and that's all that I had for chapter four.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
All righty, book four , chapter five, the Window on
the West.
Faramir grills Frodo aboutIsildur's bane which, if you'll
recall, he had the same kind ofdream vision, whatever that
Boromir had, that had the rhymethat included Isildur's bane and
the halflings um and.
(39:14):
And he also grills him aboutboromir.
And while frodo resists givingany details about the ring, he's
shocked to learn from faramirthat boromir had passed
boromir's funeral boat, had madeits way to faramir near
osgiliath and silently floatedpast him toward the sea.
The way it was described,glowing with a pale light boat,
(39:36):
almost filled with water, madeit almost seem to me like a
vision rather than the realthing.
Do you think this was reallyBoromir?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I do.
I had chalked it up to the sameinherent magical, up to the
same inherent magical, uh,imbuement, like we saw, with the
rope into the elvish boats also.
I caught myself wondering,because in my mind galadriel is
quite an all-powerful being inher own right.
(40:08):
I'm like, is there any chancethat she's aware?
And because, even by Faramir'sreckoning, there shouldn't be a
path, reasonable path, fromwhere that happened to where
Faramir saw it that the boatwould still be holding water and
all that I mean over Rauros, ifnothing else like a giant
(40:32):
waterfall.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yes, but yeah, over Rauros, if nothing else Like a
giant waterfall.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
So I couldn't help but think that there's some
natural magic that was imbuedinto the boats because they are
of elvish build, and then I dokind of just sit in the back
going.
Maybe Galadriel gave it just alittle oomph, you know, with
whatever her super cool powersare, to make sure that it makes
(40:56):
it to faramir um, and thenfaramir is mentioning.
You know, tidings of death havemany wings.
Nate oft brings news to nearkendred to said boromir was my
brother.
You know just that.
Another one of those aragorngets a lot of those moments.
(41:17):
This is another another personwho is so well spoken that it
just kind of jumped off the pageat me beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, honestly, the way it was described and frodo's
um like skeptic skepticismabout it, made me think twice.
Right, because I I thought itwas just boromir had made its
way.
He made his way down the river,whatever, and then frodo was
like I'm not sure that actually,you know that was actually
there, but whether it was or not, boromir's cloven horn made its
(41:48):
way back to gondor, solidifyinghis demise in their minds.
But now I'm just I'm I kind oflove your idea that, like it was
the magic of the elves and theboat, kind of God, what in
viewing, or what I like, kind ofjust embalming him there and
carrying him the way that heneeded to go.
The you know, however fair ofyour set it right, like in order
(42:11):
to send the tidings to his nearkin.
I now, now, I kind of preferthat, actually that it was him,
and then he continued to the sea.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Galadriel's had enough mention.
Even though she's been such asmall sliver, you know where she
seems to be in the know to acertain extent.
You know, didn't believe thatGandalf was actually dead, just
couldn't see his fate and a fewother things she knew to send
out for them when they were inneed.
(42:41):
Just Galadriel seems to have ahigher level understanding.
She's living at a differentelevation and so I just it suits
my head, canon, that she gaveit a little nudge suits my head
canon that she gave it a littlenudge.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I love that actually.
Um.
So in their conversations frodosorry.
Faramir decides he more or lesstrusts frodo and notes an
elvish air about him.
Let's remember that frodo wasnamed elf friend.
Um faramir's still not quitesure what to do about him,
though, so decides to bring thetwo along with his company for
the time being, when they have alittle bit more privacy.
He apologizes for discussingopenly that what should probably
(43:19):
remain a secret is Sildur'svein.
He's got some pretty strongtheories about what it might be
and some pretty strong wordsabout not wanting it for himself
.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
How are you feeling about Faramir after this more
private?
Conversation.
I want to believe so he's sayingthe right things.
He's not the first person tosay the right things, but I very
much want to believe the thingthat I had at this point.
The Faramir-Frodo interactionback and forth was tight.
(43:55):
It was very good to read.
They were very well matched.
At no point even though Faramiradmits that he was kind of
coming at him hard I felt likeFrodo really did a great job
holding his own.
The whole interaction wasfantastic, filled with tension,
but didn't feel unbalanced.
So what I walked out of, atleast to this part, was I was
(44:18):
like he's very, very wellinformed, even for somebody who
functions essentially as aprince.
Yeah, you know, he knew a heckof a lot more than boromir did,
for sure, and boromir, by myunderstanding, at least to this
point, is a very favored child.
Yeah, you know, faramir readsvery much as a second son, so to
(44:41):
like I said to this point,based on what I know so far.
So he seems remarkably wellinformed compared to his brother
yeah, he's uh, you know, andhe's putting it together Like
he's got.
he's got wheels turning midconversation.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
As a second child, I am happy to claim Faramir.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Let me just put it that way, like yeah, I don't
mean it as slander, but I do.
You know, in these patriarchalsocieties being a second son
comes with a certain reputationand usually not as much access
as favored first sons.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
It's kind of just implied yeah, yeah, but it does
seem like he has taken his lackof favor and, uh, kind of flown
beneath the radar and pursuedhis own you know information and
has kind of hit really close tothe actual mark, which is great
.
And part of that, if I remember, he mentions what did they call
(45:39):
Gandalf?
There was a word for it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Mithrandiel.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
No, but it was like the one the Grey Pilgrim, the
Grey Pilgrim.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
I love that.
Definitely we've seen inwriting before.
I'd have to go back through myhighlights and find it, but it
stood out because I was likewe've heard him called that
before.
I just can't remember by who.
It might have been galadriel,but I'm not 100 sure.
Um, but it exists in myhighlights somewhere.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Okay all right.
Well it, I nothinged it thefirst time and this time I was
like, oh, faramir, like, yeah,admires gandalf, I guess.
So, which is good.
And he, he seems to admire theelves, and so there's just a lot
of things about faramir thiswhole time that I was like, ah
yes, like I do want to believeyou, you like everything you're
saying is the right thing, which, of course, like should get my
(46:28):
guard up because you know silvertongues like look at saruman,
they're not always the bestthing, but he just seems so
sincere, even even like this farin um.
So frodo and sam eventuallyhave to get blindfolded, as the
location faramir was taking themwas secret.
When they get there, they aremet with a beautiful sight at
the entrance.
A thin waterfall is what Igathered.
(46:48):
It was of water reflectingbeautiful colors in the sunset.
Have you seen a waterfall dothis before?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
No, I've actually never seen a waterfall in person
.
It makes me want to though what?
That's not true.
I've seen one.
I've seen one in New Hampshire,yeah, but it wasn't like that.
They're shorter.
We don't have anything thattall around here.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
That is wild Around there.
I don't know where I am anymoreyou gotta uh, so like, pro, tip,
um, as somebody who loves tohike, like, there are pros and
cons for music, for using theall trails app, but one of the
pros is that you can put thingsthat you're looking for and you
can and like in the you knowwhen you're searching for a
trail that you're going to hikeon, and one of the things you
(47:36):
can do is search for a trailwith a waterfall.
So do that, do that.
There's beautiful waterfalls inRocky Mountain National Park.
If you get out to Colorado, Ihave seen the rainbow effect in
Iceland.
There are tons of waterfalls,just absolutely stunning
waterfalls in iceland, and Ithink the big um, there's a big
(47:57):
waterfall at yosemite, and I'mpretty sure it does it too at a
certain time of the day, and solike, of course, all the
instagrammers are there like forthat particular moment.
Sure, um, and I'm I likehesitate to believe that's where
tolkien got the idea from, butthat one is like that, one's
like famous now, at the veryleast.
Um, I'm sure there's somethinglike that where he's from too,
(48:18):
but yeah, I would, I would kindof seek out some waterfalls, man
so we've already earmarked afew uh state parks in ohio I I'm
definitely a state park girly.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
I do like to hike.
I do have to do lower impacthikes than I used to.
Yeah hiking all trails willhelp you search for that too,
like yes, you know, uh, so Iwill definitely look into that.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Thank you you should, you're welcome um, anyways,
yeah, big fan of wheneverwaterfalls have rainbows is what
I'm saying, basically.
Um, and once they got into thislittle stronghold, one scout
reported having seen a smalldark creature swiftly climbing a
tree, which sam immediatelyrecognized as gollum.
He also thought he saw gollumfollowing them previously but
(49:03):
didn't say anything to theguards, thinking it would be
better if no one had to think ofhim.
Would you have done the same?
Speaker 2 (49:10):
no, I would have called it out.
I felt like that was a littleout of character.
Well, I don't know, becauseagain he's just so sour on
gollum, yeah, um, so I guess Ican't really be surprised.
But I was like, why are you,why wouldn't you say something?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
with a sour on gollum that he is, I would.
I would have expected him tosnitch, yes, but the reasoning
that he gave basically just likeI don't ever want to think of
him, why would I want somebodyelse to have to also made sense,
but at the same time, likegollum's still out there, like
you know, like you're basicallyletting him be free by doing
(49:50):
what you're doing, which is notvery sad also.
You get the respite you knowhave the moments without him
true, so it could really goeither way, whether it was in
character or out of character.
I was surprised because Iwouldn't have done it that way,
but I get why he did it the wayhe did it it was just kind of
weird.
yeah, um, but we know that golemis following them.
(50:11):
More or less is the moral ofthat story.
So Faramir and his men, alongwith Frodo and Sam, sat down for
a meal together, but beforethey ate they all turned to the
west for a moment of silence.
They looked to Numenor, thatwas, and beyond, to Elvenholm,
that is, and to that which is anelven home and will ever be.
(50:34):
This, to me, had extremereligion vibes.
How did it hit for you?
Confusing?
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Okay, you, I, I think I wrote in my notes like where,
where is Elvenholm?
Like, just okay, I think thatthat's the first time that I'm
(51:03):
introduced to that concept ofElvenholm.
I can, I, I'm kind of leftimplying that perhaps it is the
mythical place that the elvesmigrated from and potentially
are migrating back to, but Idon't actually know that.
Um and why.
Why do the children of men careso much about elven home?
Speaker 1 (51:28):
but it's a good point , okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So to me, the moment I heard it, I thought first of all this
feels like obscure referencesthat somebody who's casually
reading would have no concept ofwhich now Can confirm.
But so, like in Catholicismreminder that Tolkien was
(51:49):
Catholic there is a prayer thatends as it was, was in the
beginning, is now and ever shallbe, world without end.
So, like the like and will everbe and now and ever shall be.
It just felt like almostheavenly, like afterlife or God
adjacent to me, which I like.
(52:10):
I know that the men of Gondordescended from Numenoreans and
so I can see that they're likeattached to them and they
there's.
You know there's somerelationship there with elves,
but again it is very much likewhy?
Where did this come from?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Nobody else is doing this.
It's done with such gravitasLike there's clear emphasis
placed on it, just no realcontext to speak of.
Just we feel so strongly aboutthis that we're going to stop.
It's like somebody breaking outinto prayer before Thanksgiving
dinner at a house where you'venever heard a prayer given
before, like that's exactly theturkey already in your mouth.
(52:47):
Then you're like, oh, I'm so,I'm so sorry, and you're just
casually putting your fork down.
That's exactly it feels likethat.
Yeah're just casually puttingyour fork down.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
That's exactly it feels like that, yeah, then
that's how it hit me.
Here I am reading the book,just like what?
Like it's a pre pre meal prayer.
Okay, that's a first, but okay,um, great, yeah, cool, uh,
anyway.
So, speaking of numenor, we geta little history of men from
(53:17):
faramir.
After the meal he seemed tohave no real fondness for, like
pure numenoreans, who fell intoevils and folly and seemed more
obsessed with death and the pastthan life.
And then, after that, came thestewards, who I guess I gather
are more of like not just pureNumenor people, and they did
(53:38):
better for themselves forming analliance with men from the
north, the Rohirrim, who theyallied with in battle and
ultimately ceded some land towhich became Rohan.
So from all this history, didanything stand out to you?
Speaker 2 (53:57):
all this history, did anything stand out to you um
the fact that there was anunofficial kind of caste system
aside like they were classifyinghigh, middle and low classes of
men.
Um, so that that was kind ofstrange and it all seemed to be
related to their origin, youknow.
So the new minorians were of ahigher class.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yep, based on these entirely arbitrary standings
from the people who descend fromnew minorians.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, so like we're the, bestest and there ain't
nothing you can say about it.
Yeah, but that's fine, um, sothat stuck out to me also
talking.
Talking about the Numenoreans,there was a comment made in
there about how they hungeredafter endless life unchanging,
which apparently they had leftbehind, and I just wrote what so
(54:47):
kind of like Elvenholm right,kind of like our prayer pause,
just were they immortal?
Are they zombies?
What are what Were they?
immortal.
Are they zombies?
What are you saying?
Were they zombies?
What Are there zombies in Lordof the Rings?
Speaker 1 (55:02):
I mean, we did read about the Barrow.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Wives no spoilers.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, true, we did no spoilers.
That wasn't the Hobbit We'vebeen there.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
That wasn't the Hobbit.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
But they've done that .
And also the kind of sorry no,it's okay.
And the nazgul too yes, they'regiving zombie they are um.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
They can respawn at any save point right, I do say.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
I will say, though, that, like that's literally the
note that I took was they thinkof themselves as the high or men
of the west because of theiraffiliation with Numenoreans and
the Men of Rohan as Middlemen,or of the Twilight gag.
First of all, I don't love that.
But then Faramir admitted thatGondor had more or less fallen
(55:45):
in with the Middlemen.
They had lost their lusterwhich I loved.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
So that's when it got icky for me.
So I was the opposite.
I was like, okay, high, middle,twilight.
Okay, I'm going to ride it outand see what happens.
Because the way that he phrasedit, I think was we have fallen
to the class of middle, orfallen to the class of Rohirrim,
(56:10):
or the way that it was phrasedindicated that he felt that it
was a decline in stature.
And that was where I was like,Ooh, okay, I guess it was really
not any better than it sounded.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
I read it, as I'm not putting us on a pedestal
anymore, cause, like the way helooked at the Numenoreans in the
first place was like these guysweren't all they were cracked
up to be.
They fell into evil.
They were not as wise theydidn't care about.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
the present day.
I'm not going to put us on apedestal anymore, but we used to
be on a pedestal.
Yeah, I feel like we're twoparts of the same sentence.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
Maybe, but I don't think he thinks that they were
worthy of being on a pedestal.
Is what I'm saying.
And yeah, um, he does.
He does mention to your, toyour point, he does mention that
like part of being a middlemanis valuing, like battles and
fighting and all of that stuff.
Because he says, like boromirembodies that side of gondor,
(57:10):
slash rohan, you know, or he didembody it, you know, the
greater than any other man inhis generation or whatever, but
Faramir didn't seem to thinkthat that, like the battles and
stuff, was the greatest thingeither.
So I don't know, I think to meI like it when somebody isn't
holding themselves above others,even if the way they phrase it
(57:34):
is yeah, we've actually comedown a notch from where we used
to be.
I still appreciated it becausehe just felt like he was more
down to earth and not like allhigh and mighty, like more kind
of.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
I agree, he does not.
He does not come across thatway.
It was just oh, I was kind ofhoping that, that that you were
going to redeem it there at theend, but no, it really was as
classist as it sounded okay.
Okay, but I'm not holding hisfeet to the fire over it, I'm
just that's.
That's how that set with me.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
That's fair, um I like how he, um he, he really
clearly knows boromir, you know,which makes sense because they
were brothers.
But when he mentions the uh,the stewards, and how they would
never become kings, and howthat really dissatisfied Boromir
, you know, which makes sensebecause they were brothers.
But when he mentions thestewards and how they would
never become kings and how thatreally dissatisfied Boromir,
like how long do we have to bestewards until we can be kings?
Boromir and Faramir are justtwo very different dudes.
(58:28):
I think Faramir happy to not bea king or whatever, or be a
prince, just be the second sonof a steward.
Boromir wasn't that way.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
No From the get-go.
I think that it would show.
I think that if you havesomebody who is smart and
perceptive, then they would beable to see seeds of that in
their childhood.
So it just spoke to Faramirbeing very perceptive.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Yeah.
So after Faramir took his turntalking about men and their
history, Sam decided to chime inand got pretty worked up about
the elves and Galadriel, and heended up running his mouth about
Boromir and the ring.
How do you feel about how thiswent down?
Speaker 2 (59:17):
I feel that it was a matter of time.
I feel bad for Sam because ifit were me and I had let it slip
, I would feel like absolutegarbage, but I feel like it was
going to happen one way or theother and it might as well
(59:37):
happen with sam, a little tipsy,a little jazzed up about the
elves his sass.
His sass got ahead of him andboy.
Is that relatable?
Speaker 1 (59:46):
true, true.
So in this, in this exchange,um, I promised another quote
that I use all the time, or atleast adopt my own purposes, and
in this case it was a chancefor faramir, captain of gondor,
to show his quality.
So like replace faramir withany applicable name, highly
usable phrase.
So you're about to give yourcat medicine a chance for agni,
(01:00:09):
captain of fluffiness, to showhis quality.
You're about to shoot the finalshot in a game of horse, a
chance for critter, captain ofbasketball, to show her quality.
I use that too much.
It's because a lot of peopledon't even know what the hell
I'm talking about.
Right, but it doesn't matter myjokes just for you is okay,
because I do it all the timeyeah, I got told by a basketball
(01:00:31):
team mate of mine in highschool coinc coincidentally that
I talked different.
It was like because I say stufflike this, right, who says a
chance for Critter, captain ofbasketball, to show her quality?
No one.
No one talks, especially inhigh school because they're
worried about people thinkingthey're weird.
(01:00:52):
Weird, I was not worried, or II didn't know enough to be
worried.
Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
I was walking around quoting shakespeare, so okay
that's fair, all right.
Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
So two different types of yes, but same vibes,
but very niche interests.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
I was passing notes written in uh runes and I was
quoting shakespeare so perfectso we, we all have our thing.
Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Um, but that is one of my one of another one of my
quotes yeah, um.
So faramir did show his quality, though standing by his earlier
statement not if I found it onthe highway would I take it.
So still, he's not.
He's not taking the ring, he'strying to help.
So, for me, this man is gettingup there with Aragorn in the
(01:01:36):
dream in his category.
Personally, how are you feelingabout him right now?
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
This was all very positive, right up to him saying
I don't even want to see it.
I don't even.
And I just was like I have totake it.
He made a comment earlier inthe chapter about I would not
snare even an orc with afalsehood and I was like, ok,
well, we'll wait and see.
(01:02:02):
And here we are, and here we are.
And so by the end of thechapter he has, in fact,
completely won me over.
Ok, he seems really legit.
He seems to really know hisbrother, including his flaws.
And also, as he's talking abouthis brother, I thought that it
was important to point out thathe's pointing out his brother's
(01:02:23):
flaws for lack of a better wordwithout Boromir bashing.
You know what I mean, like in areal way, as somebody who grew
up with you would know you,without it being malicious.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
It's just how it was, mm-hmm, like that's who.
He was Not a bad thing, he wasdevoted to his people.
He was a great warrior, yeah.
So one example of hisdreaminess Frodo caught a
swaying Frodo and carried him tobed, tucked him in and then he
exchanged compliments with sam,calling him master, sam, wise
(01:03:00):
master, like you know how manytimes sam has called frodo
bastard and it's driven usinsane.
Now sam's the master and I lovethat.
Um, sam, in return, tells himthat he has the air of wizards
about him, which I agree becausehe's giving wisdom.
Like, if I had to use one wordto describe faramir, I think I'd
use, I would just say wise um,personally.
So yeah, big fan, huge fan offaramir by the end of this
(01:03:23):
exchange.
Um, so that's it for thischapter.
Do you have any thoughts beforewe pick an mvp?
Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
uh, during sam'suff up, as he's ramping up, he makes
an offhand comment about.
It strikes me that folks thattake their peril with them into
Lorien like just one more kindof plug for Lorien and Galadriel
and it didn't really pertain tothe chapter but I loved to see
(01:03:56):
it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
He's going to defend Galadriel until the day he dies.
He's up there with Gimli.
He just loves the elves.
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
So I found it to be super adorable and so I wanted
to call it out, but I thinkthat's it from this chapter.
Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Alright.
So we've got a tradition wherewe pick an MVP from the chapters
we've read for each episode.
Cue the music Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Can I respectfully request that you go first for?
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
once, absolutely.
I have no hesitation.
I choose Faramir, like by amillion.
He is an absolute dreamboat andlike he god, he was trying to
do his best.
Uh, by frodo and sam.
He mentions that he couldliterally I think he says he
could literally be sentenced todeath for, like, allowing them
(01:04:53):
to be there and not taking themstraight to gondor.
Right, but he wants to do theright thing instead of the thing
the law says he needs to do.
Right, it was something likethat that resonated with me so
hard.
Um, and then, when it comesdown to it, he well, before he
even found out what is theelder's bane was, he basically
reasoned it out.
Right, it was something fromback then, um, it can be used
(01:05:16):
whatever.
Somebody found it, the hobbitshave it now.
You're on a mission about it.
Like he had all of like, he'sjust a little detective, um, and
and then he found out what itactually was, didn't even ask to
see it, no questions asked.
I'm gonna, other than, whereare you going?
I'd like to help you just he ishe.
(01:05:37):
Peter jackson did him dirty.
He is.
Yeah, he is an excellent humanbeing, like the pinnacle of men
here, right up there witharagorn and uh, and yeah, I love
to see it.
Big fan of faramir from thesequence.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
so it really did help me to let you go first.
So I was torn between Frodo andFaramir and I'm going to pick
Frodo, not because you pickedFaramir, but your decisiveness,
just for whatever reason, helpedme lock in.
I feel like I have to give itup for Frodo in this read
because he is doing the deed.
(01:06:16):
It is not glorious or glamorousor anything related.
It's not adventurous, it's notfun, it's none of those things,
and it is abundantly clear atthis point in their travel that
it's not.
And he is doing the things.
He is wrestling with himself.
He is keeping an eye on Gollum,trying to find the best path
(01:06:40):
forward, trying to keep an eyeon Sam in his own way.
And just the way that he metFaramir head to head, did not
flinch, did not back down, didnot lie.
There was a part where he saidI did not lie to you and I told
you all of the truth that I feltthat I could, and I was like
heck, yeah.
(01:07:00):
Yeah.
So I really my heart is withFrodo.
Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
this read yeah, it's a strong choice for sure,
without a doubt.
I don't know, faramir just like, was like a beacon of light for
me, but I totally get the Frodochoice, as always.
Those of you listening, if youwant to weigh in on the MVP,
feel free to tweet us or let usknow in the comments on YouTube,
or get into the Discord.
(01:07:25):
Let us know who your personalMVP is, because I love hearing
your all's takes, even ifthey're not the same as mine.
I promise it doesn't upset meat all.
Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
So that's it for us tonight.
We would ask you for next weekto please read book four,
chapters six through eight.
We both want to say thank youso much for tuning in to episode
six of season three of but Arethere Dragons Brought to you by
your hosts, jessica Sadai andcritter XD.
Please don't forget to followus at butter their dragons on
(01:07:58):
YouTube, instagram and Tik TOKand.
But dragons just one T on X,but dragons pod.
I do that every time Dragons pod.
Just one T on X.
You can also find us on socialmedia as critter XD and Shelf
Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We are going to continue toworkshop new catchphrases
(01:08:20):
through season three, so let usknow, on social media or in the
discord, how you feel about thisone.
Farewell, dear listener.
We must each go swiftly on theways appointed to us.
Bye.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.