August 20, 2024 • 41 mins
In this penultimate episode, Jessica and Kritter discuss book 6 chapters 6 & 7. Follow along as we (finally!) hear from Arwen, start the Goodbye Tour in earnest, and tagalong with the four hobbits as they make their way home.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:07):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter.
Kritter (00:18):
And.
Jessica (00:19):
I'm your host, jess.
Kritter (00:20):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Return
of the King by JRR Tolkien, withme as the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:27):
And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer.
Kritter (00:30):
In this, our seventh episode of season four, we're
going to discuss book six,chapters six and seven Before we
dive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How's the grass?
Jessica (00:42):
The grass is doing overall very well.
It's almost mowable.
Which again grass.
The grass is doing overall verywell, it's almost mowable,
which again sounds like I hearhow silly it sounds, but it's
exciting.
Kritter (00:52):
It is exciting.
Jessica (00:52):
We could see it actually waving in the breeze
which, if you knew how a raucouslike it was, very dune like
back there nine weeks ago.
Kritter (01:03):
So this is a major victory.
It feels like it about you.
Congratulations, oh uh, to thisone.
I'm okay.
Today was like one day in theoffice.
I I go into the office one daya week and, uh, by the end of
that day I'm always, like youknow, kind of just in a daze, so
I'm a little tired, but nowthat it's time to talk about
(01:23):
Lord of the Rings, I think I'mgetting my second wind.
So that's where we're at.
Yeah, right on.
So, speaking of, are you ready?
Jessica (01:32):
I'm ready, let's do this.
Kritter (01:34):
Okay, it is Book 6, chapter 6.
Many Partings.
So Frodo approaches Aragorn andArwen ready to head back home.
Aragorn agrees to accompany himfor part of the journey and
Arwen actually speaks to takeher place, to pass into the West
(01:54):
if he so chooses.
And she also gives him anecklace with a white gem, like
a star, to bring him aid whenthe memory of the darkness and
fear troubles him.
So how are you feeling aboutArwen's brief but arguably
(02:16):
impactful speaking part?
Jessica (02:19):
Very excited, very excited to know that she has a
brain and that she can talk andthat, you know, she seems, by
all accounts, to be a verywilling participant in this is
choosing.
Aragorn is making the choicebased out of love.
Yeah, all of that in really arelatively small interaction,
(02:42):
right, but you can imply all ofthat.
You can connect all of thosedots with this small exchange.
I will say that the gift shegives Frodo, the white gem, made
me think of the pendant thatyou wear, that flower, or that
brooch that she gave Aragorn inthe movie the like, even star
(03:06):
necklace, yes, even star, yes,yeah.
And so I was like I understandthat it's not that and I also
understand that you know, bookversus movie, it doesn't matter.
But I was like, oh interesting,okay, so she's giving it to
Frodo, not Aragorn, and I guessI had just gone off of.
(03:27):
I had made the assumption as amovie watcher that Frodo's place
on the boats was guaranteedbecause of his status as a ring
bearer regardless.
Kritter (03:40):
And maybe it would have been, like you know, but I do
feel like the sentiment wasreally nice, that, like you, can
have my place, because I'm nottaking it chosen the way of
luthien.
You know, presumably in givingcontext clues, even if you
haven't read the silmarillionalthough they did they did, they
have talked about it in thecontext of the trilogy too, but
you know, an elf who chose to bewith a man, like whatever,
(04:02):
chose a mortal life.
So yeah, whether whether therewas one final spot and they're
they're swapping out, or if itwas just kind of the the
sentiment behind it, you know,like I would like to give you
something, so I'm gonna give youthis thing.
That may or may not, you may ormay not need uh.
Either way, it was nice to hearher speak.
(04:23):
In my opinion, yes and uh, andit was like it was get.
You know, it's funny how theelves are.
Well, at least galadriel, theelves are such generous people,
right, they're very like they'regift givers, they it's and I
guess it's not just the elves,but like lots of people in the
books or they give tokens andstuff, which is kind of a fun
(04:44):
thing after random interactions.
It's like here I give you thisthing and you can find out what
it is.
Jessica (04:51):
Cheap swag, right?
Kritter (04:52):
no, the stuff they have been gifted, it's pretty solid
I guess it's kind of giving likeyou know, rpg video game like
you're like you're leveling up,you're putting your stuff in
your pouch or whatever, andgetting better and better gear
as time goes by.
So thanks, arwen, for the supercool necklace that may or may
(05:13):
not be magical in some way.
So Eomer and Gimli reconciletheir differences.
When Eomer shows up to bearTheoden back home, aragorn
grants the people of Gon-Bri-Gonthe forest of Druidon to have
for their own.
Theoden is buried amongst hisforebears.
(05:35):
When Faramir and Eowyn'sbetrothal is announced, aragorn
and Eowyn share joyful words andwe find out that later Legolas
and Gimli went to check out theglittering caves of helm's deep,
as legolas promised, and gimliand legolas also go to fangorn
when they ultimately depart fromthe company.
So tell me, is tolkien theactual master of tying up loose
(05:56):
ends?
And do you have a favoritemoment of all of these?
Jessica (06:00):
I feel like, yes, I definitely feel as though, and I
do have recency bias, mostlybecause by the by the end of a
read, I only remember the vibe.
I don't necessarily remember thewhole thing but, I do feel like
in my recent memory, tolkien isthe one who stitches it at all,
(06:22):
stitches it all up nice andneat and closes down every
storyline, and I love that.
I don't know.
So there were a couple of,really.
And also, frodo wants to goback to Rivendell to see Bilbo
first before he goes.
Gimli and Eomer you know who'scoolest?
(06:43):
Galadriel Arwen why not both?
You know like that was superadorable.
Kritter (06:48):
That was cute yeah.
Jessica (06:49):
I was stoked that Aragorn delivered on the promise
to the wood people and giftedthem the Like I was so proud.
Proud of him for followingthrough on that and Merry
weeping at Théoden's funeralthat was really touching.
I think probably my favoritehas to be the Legolas and Gimli
(07:17):
bro tour, just because I wantedit so bad, so I think that
probably has to win.
Kritter (07:24):
Okay, that's fair.
I liked, I really enjoyed allof it.
I think one of the mostrelieving things for me was the
exchange between Aragorn andEowyn, because it's like they
had this love triangle thatwasn't really a love triangle
because, like he was never intoher, you know.
And then the fact that she'slike you know, be happy for me,
(07:44):
or whatever, whatever, and he'slike I've been wishing for your
happiness ever since the day Imet you.
It's like that's so sweet andnice.
And the fact that they're likeboth in their own relationships,
super happy like nothing.
It was like nothing everhappened.
Um, and yeah, because, uh,while love triangles can be fun
while you're reading them,depending on the book, this one
(08:05):
in particular, because I want tostan eowyn, right, I want her
to be this powerful shieldmaiden.
The fact that she was piningafter him diminished her just
slightly in my eyes, and so nowthat she's like over him, I'm
like I love that for you.
Girlfriend, marrying the princeof I already forgot the name,
the place so good for her, she'sawesome.
Jessica (08:29):
I also think Sorry.
In there, narrator also tellsus that no one sees the last
exchange between Elrond andArwen, but that it's no good
Right.
So until we just talked aboutit, I didn't realize that Frodo
knew Arwen wasn't going to gobefore Elrond knew that Arwen
(08:49):
wasn't going to go.
So yeah, good times.
Kritter (08:55):
So I think the movie did a pretty good job of like
giving us more of thatparticular.
You know, like throughout themovie Elrond was angsty about
arwen's choices and she wasinsisting and eventually
relented and then changed hermind, like there was a lot of
are you going to give up yourimmortal life for a man?
Throughout the movie, which Ithink increased arwen's like
(09:20):
intrigue.
I guess it made her moreinteresting, obviously because
she had dialogue, but um, butalso it made the romance
interesting, obviously becauseshe had dialogue, but um, but
also it made the romance betweenaragorn and arwen more special
than it was in the books to me,because in the books it was very
remote, um, so yeah, yeah,while I think faramir and
eowyn's romance in the books isbetter, I think aragorn and
(09:42):
arwen's books romance in themovies is better.
Jessica (09:44):
I'm just gonna call that yeah, I would agree with
that.
I would agree with that at all.
I don't feel like I knew untilthe last 10 minutes, not the
last 10 minutes, but you know avery, very far into the story,
even right up till theirnuptials, them getting married.
I'm still unclear as to howarwen feels about this whole
(10:05):
situation, right, right.
So I just I know that I don'tlook to look, I don't look to
tolkien for romance, and that'sokay perfectly fine, um, okay,
so the hobbits move to depart.
Kritter (10:21):
Rohan and eowyn grants Merry a gift An heirloom horn
from the horde of Skatha theWorm, a dragon meant to strike
fear in the hearts of enemiesand joy in the hearts of friends
, and to friends sorry, and tofriends gather sorry, and
friends gather to him wheneverhe blows it.
That's basically its powers, Iguess, or the lore.
(10:43):
I feel like that's a prettysolid gift.
As far as gifts go, would yourather the horn that gathers
gifts and invigorates friendsand scares enemies, or the
necklace that arwen gave frodothat, like essentially to me,
feels like a mood stabilizerbased on its description, which
(11:05):
one would you prefer?
Jessica (11:08):
um, I think I'd probably go with a horn, just
because I I don't need a amagical bus pass necklace.
I I don't.
I mean frodo definitely doesthat that boy's got some trauma
he needs to work through, so I'dprobably pick the horn honestly
(11:29):
.
Kritter (11:30):
Yeah, I mean, if you wanted to have any super sick
adventures, definitely the horn,because you know who doesn't
love scaring enemies and callingallies, yeah.
But there's something to besaid.
I about like uh, I don't know,I don't know what I would pick.
A part of me is like thenecklace would be really nice to
(11:52):
just if you're ever like reallystressed out, just gotta hold
it, you know, and it'll make youfeel a little better yeah so I
could go either way.
I think All right.
So the travelers?
They make it to Orthanc, backto Isengard, and we find out
that Treebeard ultimately letSaruman go Seven days earlier,
(12:17):
when he deemed him no longer athreat as he disdains the caging
of living things.
Good choice, bad choice.
Are you worried?
Jessica (12:28):
I felt very split on this because I was very excited
for us to come back to Treebeard, but anything about Saruman,
this is unknown territory for me.
So, I'm like oh yeah, that guy,he's still alive.
And also so you, just, you,just, you just let him go.
(12:49):
I don't, I don't know.
I mean, I'm not usually one whoendorses the, the caging or
restraining of anybody, but youknow, he's, he's kind of earned
his mantle as a pretty bad dude.
Kritter (13:06):
Yeah, he was like maybe the second, he was in the top
five biggest bads of the wholeseries, agreed.
So I don't know, like Iunderstand, not avoiding, you
know, the death penalty, likethey did for gollum or what.
Like you know, we're not, whoam I to decide who gets to live
or die?
But the caging, it kind of madesense to me.
(13:29):
I don't know.
Yeah, so he's wondering,wondering about now we'll see
what happens um at.
When you found out that he wasgone, were you like okay, we're
not gonna hear from him again,or did you expect something more
from him?
Jessica (13:43):
I didn't know what to expect.
I.
I was like uh feels weird tojust have him floating around
loose and not tied up.
So I guess that was probably myclue, right, like that's an end
, that's not tied up.
Kritter (13:57):
If you know Tolkien, hmm, yeah, okay, so we've got a
little literary umami.
It came from a line that madeits way into the movies, but in
a different context.
So Treebeard says to Galadrielit is sad that we shall meet
only thus into the movies, butin a different context.
So Treebeard says to Galadrielit is sad that we shall meet
(14:18):
only thus at the ending, for theworld is changing.
Hold on, and I'm going to do ithow it was in the movies.
I'm going to try.
I feel it in the water, I feelit in the earth and I smell it
in the air.
That was Galadriel in the movie.
I do not think we shall meetagain.
So in the movies, Galadrielsays some of these lines, the
ones that I impersonated, ratheras a beginning to the story as
(14:39):
opposed to an end.
We talked about how sometimesthese things get repurposed and
put in the movies.
Do you like this particularadaptation?
If you remember the line?
Jessica (14:49):
I do so.
First off, thank you, because II was like this seems really
familiar, I think I think it wasin there and maybe just, uh,
swapped around.
So thank you for thatconfirmation.
Yep, um, and I think that it is.
I'm glad that it's in there, nodifferent than the other little
(15:09):
nuggets we found along the way.
I think that it's almost alittle bit more ominous or sad
now versus how they did it.
No, it was kind of ominous,only it was like foreshadowing
in there.
I don't know it just was.
It just hit me as a little bitmore sad, coming from tree beard
in this moment.
Kritter (15:28):
Yeah, I would say in the movie it was more ominous in
the books it was more ominousin the books.
It was more sad right, becauseit was like it's it's kind of
symbolizing the end of the ageright.
Where people are moving on,magic is dwindling, stuff like
that we're just casually talkingabout, like that.
Jessica (15:43):
It's the end of an age.
You know, the third age isending and the fourth age is
about to begin and I'm just like, oh, oh, okay, I don't really
have any frame of reference forthat, but you know, big doings
and shifts in the entire world.
Kritter (16:00):
I'm just like okay turn in the page.
I mean people talking aboutdeparting forever.
I no longer have a place here.
I mean it's all very much likethe age of men is beginning.
There's just so much like youknow, if I could live in Middle
Earth with all the magical elvesand hobbits and dwarves and
everything, hell yeah, that'swhat I would do.
But they're kind of making itsound like that's not what's
(16:20):
going to be, that's not how it'sgoing to be anymore.
Right?
Jessica (16:23):
So it's definitely more sad.
Kritter (16:24):
The dominion of men, mm , hmm, it's definitely more sad
doesn't sound very magical atall I know, like that's what I'm
living in right now.
It's it could be.
It could be way cooler if therewere elves, dragon maybe not
dragons.
I mean it would be cooler ifthere were dragons, a little
more dangerous, but if I had asuper cool horn then who knows?
(16:46):
right um but yeah, I, I likedthe repurposing of it.
When I saw it I was like, oh,Treebeard said this Interesting.
I always thought it wasGaladriel, but these things I've
forgotten, I guess.
So Aragorn then departs fromthe company and they actually
(17:06):
run into Saruman and Wormtongueof all people.
Any standout moments from thisinteraction?
Jessica (17:13):
So when they said that they saw you know, I don't have
it open they said like they sawa beggar in gray and white.
It did immediately make my earsperk up, as it were, thinking
about how we had that momentearlier in the story where they
see somebody wandering aroundTreebeard talks about about you
know, sightings of a figure ingray and and we didn't know if
(17:36):
it was gandalf and turns out itwas saruman.
So I did kind of catch that inthe moment and I was like, oh
okay, so he didn't make it far,we found him yeah, we did find
him, and then he stole mary'stobacco pouch, right oh just
just just a no, no good dirtydog yeah, yeah, what's.
Kritter (18:02):
What's that about?
Jessica (18:03):
my favorite part of this, though.
There were two lines in in ourMon exchange that I loved.
First is Galadriel.
Galadriel's Royal burn yes,sarah Mon is whining that they
won't just leave him be.
And Galadriel's response isbasically we have far better
(18:25):
things to do than concernourselves with you.
And I just was like yes, girl,yeah Him, um.
And then the other one was uh,was like yes, girl, yeah.
And then the other one was wasa negative back.
It said long may your land beshort of leaf.
And I just wrote what aterrible thing to say to a
hobbit.
Kritter (18:44):
I know he knows really mean.
He knows how to poke him,that's for sure.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
The Galadriel line reminded meso much of a line in mad men,
and this isn't.
I'm not gonna spoil anything,but like I think it's uh, don
draper, the main character, getsum into an elevator and
somebody who's kind of like asocial climber gets into the
elevator with him and they'relike ad executives, they're in
(19:07):
suits, whatever, and the socialclimber's talking to him about
something.
He's like you know, I wasthinking about you the other day
, and then he gives him thisanecdote and don is just like I
don't think about you at all.
It was the sickest bird likeliterally, like I don't think
about you at all and there's a,you know, there's like a gift
that's been made out of it.
Whatever iconic you could makethat, you can make a galadriel
(19:30):
don draper gif and it would beperfect.
Jessica (19:33):
It was amazing.
Kritter (19:36):
It was sick.
Okay, so, speaking of Galadriel, before Celeborn and Galadriel
depart from the company, we getthis visual of them, gandalf and
Elrond, sitting together intothe wee hours of the night
conversing about all things pastand present.
Except it wasn't like normal,so to passers-by they would have
(19:58):
appeared gray figures carved instone, memorials of forgotten
things, now lost in unpeopledlands, not moving, rather
speaking mind to mind.
So this felt very otherworldlyto me.
How did it strike you?
Jessica (20:15):
Exactly that.
So the idea I don't think we'veseen an interaction where the
whole interaction is a mentalconnection, right Like there's
been some of that happening kindof as subtext almost in parts
of interactions, but the idea ofthem sitting like monoliths,
(20:37):
you know, gray-scaled monoliths,hanging out and um, the only
thing that's moving, I think itsaid, was you know their eyes,
their, eyes, their eyes, um no,it absolutely smacks of an
ethereal realm and them beingotherworldly indifferent.
Kritter (20:58):
Yeah, it reminded me of , I believe it's whenever
they're in Lothlorien in thefirst movie, galadriel, kind of
like mind melds with them, youknow, and like talks to them
each, sometimes all together,sometimes in turn, and to keep
like zooming in on her face andkate blanchett's, just like
moving her eyes back and forthand granted, it's not the same,
because like she still wasanimated in that way.
(21:18):
She just wasn't talking outloud, which is kind of how this
was, but this was just a wholedifferent level.
You know, like I wish somewherein the world there was like a
courtyard that had like stonestatues of them.
Like how sick would that be?
I would totally visit.
That would be so awesome.
I would just like go hang outin the courtyard, like next to
stone gandalf.
(21:39):
You know, I don't know, oh mygod.
Jessica (21:42):
Yes, I would definitely take pictures with all of them
all of them, and I'm not like a.
Kritter (21:46):
You know what I was gonna say.
I'm not a pipe smoker, butmaybe I would like do it just
there, but instead, no, Iwouldn't, I would just take a
picture with the pipe as if Iwas smoking a pipe, because
isn't that just?
It's?
I don't know, it's a coolvisual.
Let's just put it that way.
It's a really cool visual.
Um, okay, so the remainingmembers of the party make their
(22:06):
way to rivendell, because frodowanted to go see Bilbo and Bilbo
was celebrating his 129thbirthday.
Just shy of, I'm trying toremember the name of him, like
the old hobbit, the oh.
Jessica (22:21):
God, anyway, not Bull Roar.
The other one, the other one,the old Took.
Kritter (22:27):
Yes, yeah, okay, just shy of the old Took's record,
right?
So he was just very old, sweetand sleepy and it just kind of
reminded me of my grandpa.
Do you have any thoughts abouttheir time in Rivendell?
Jessica (22:44):
Again, idyllic, beautiful and very much giving
the sense that it's winding to aclose.
Yeah, I love the fact that itwas a priority of Frodo to make
it back to see Bilbo.
Goodbye gifts from Bilbo.
(23:05):
The fact that he re-gifts themithril coat and sing, you know,
because he's getting up therein years and he accidentally
forgot giving them free advicevery grandfatherly, very, very
grandfatherly, and just hownurturing they all are of Bilbo.
(23:25):
Right, like I don't have, youknow, he's dozing in the corner.
He's like I don't have time toarrange the poetry and why don't
you come back and help me sortit out?
And all this and that, and itwas just precious.
Kritter (23:40):
Yeah, it really reminded me of my grandpa when
he was really He'd live to belike 94 or something in his last
year or two.
That was kind of the vibe wherewe would just go and I would
just sit there with him and we'dlike watch cardinals games and
he might fall asleep and thenwake back up and it was just
like this, I don't know, justlike being together, and that's
(24:01):
kind of how it felt.
They were just there with himand it didn't really matter what
they were doing, what they weretalking about, they were just
spending time and it was at thatpoint.
Jessica (24:09):
The commodity is time.
Kritter (24:12):
Yeah, it was just really precious to me.
It was a good little scenethere.
Okay, so in Rivendell Elrondlet Frodo know that he would be
with Bilbo in the Shire aboutthat time next year in the fall,
and for the end of the chapterFrodo keeps this information to
(24:33):
himself.
Any thoughts before we move on?
Jessica (24:41):
Just that you know, frodo's come a long way and he's
gonna just keep that littlenugget to himself.
I think that that's incrediblyinteresting.
I did have one little piece ofliterary umami right at the
beginning of them getting toRivendell, I think yeah, part of
a, as they were going throughNorthern Dunland.
(25:02):
September came in with goldendays and silver nights and I
just that's not even the wholesentence, like that's just part
of the sentence, but it's justso pretty and very uh, like it
resonates with me about howseptember is.
You know, still have like agolden, warm day, but it's a
little cooler at night a lot oftimes, and just perfect, perfect
(25:26):
umami makes me want fall.
Kritter (25:28):
I love fall so much.
Okay, ready to move on to thenext chapter.
Yep, all righty book six,chapter sorry no, so sorry.
Jessica (25:38):
There was one thing that happened in chapter six.
You don't have to tell me whatit is, but just tell me if it
means anything to you.
As they were wrapping up,kelleborn says to araginsman
farewell.
May your doom be other thanmine and your treasure remain
with you to the end.
So I don't know if that's likea Silmarillion spoiler or
(26:03):
whatever, but why is Celeborntalking about a doom D-O-O-M?
Kritter (26:21):
doom d-o-o-m.
I believe that's a silmarillionspoiler.
Okay, I have an idea what Ithink it is, but I don't want to
say okay, I don't want to spoilanything that's fine.
Jessica (26:27):
If it's a silmarillion spoiler, then I'm happy to let
it go.
But it kind of jumped out at me.
I was like hello boy, you seemlike you have a pretty good deal
.
Kritter (26:36):
Like what kind of doom, what kind of doom you got yeah,
no, that's fair, that's totallyfair that's it.
Jessica (26:43):
That's all I had for chapter six.
Kritter (26:44):
Sorry okay, okay, book six, chapter seven, homeward
bound, which is an excellentmovie if you're a child, albeit
sad.
Um, okay.
So frodo is hurting a year fromthe day he was stabbed on
weathertop.
He wonders how he might findrest, having been fundamentally
changed as he had, and gandalfdoesn't answer, even though
(27:08):
things are better generally.
I think tolkien is doing a goodjob, making me still feel sorry
for Frodo.
How's this hitting for you?
Jessica (27:17):
So I'm not sure why, but this part specifically
really resonated with me.
So I am someone that and Iconsider myself a pretty
positive person, but I am verylikely to say you can never go
home again.
I'm very likely to say you cannever go home again because
whatever your, whatever yourtravels have been, either home's
(27:38):
not the same or you're not thesame.
You know what I mean?
That's, that was a moment intime and it will never be the
same when you go back.
And so I highlighted that asumami, because it's just so
powerful.
I think it just hit a chord withme.
There is no real going back.
Though I may come to the Shire,it will not see the same, will
not seem the same, for I shallnot be the same.
(28:01):
I am wounded with knife, stingin tooth and a long burden.
Where shall I find rest?
And so, yeah, I mean just oneparagraph really, just knocking
me back in my chair for theplight of Frodo.
You know he has done thisincredible thing and he is
(28:22):
forever changed, and what thatmeans to him and what that means
for him going forward.
So yeah, that one really got me.
Kritter (28:33):
Yeah, I believe it.
That a an interesting start tothe chapter.
It was like, was it like thefirst paragraph?
Uh, and just like dang oof, Itook that one right in the chest
, I guess, um, but yeah, I thinktolkien does a really good job
of like making us feel exactlyhow he wants us to feel.
So, whereas the like littletime in rivendell with old bilbo
(28:57):
kind of hit me, like put tuggedon my heartstrings a lot, this,
you know, in this way was itmade, yeah, frodo's having he's
frodo's having a very real, verykind of sad experience and it's
it's we can, we can relate.
You love to see it.
Jessica (29:15):
Um, especially for a character who was essentially
had resigned themselves to thefact that they wouldn't live and
in a lot of ways, that wouldwould have been a simpler ending
for him.
Yeah, and what that means.
Kritter (29:32):
Yeah and sam, at one point, after he thought frodo
was dead, had that same thingwhere he's like do I just end it
?
You know, do I just end now?
That would be easier, it wouldbe easier.
Um so yeah, poor frodo,basically.
Uh, so the hobbits and gandalf,they make it to brie and things
(29:52):
have changed there for theworst.
Fights, fights, ruffians, billFerny stirring up trouble.
Butterbur has been dealing withrough times, but he's heartened
when he finds out that Striderof all people has been crowned
King of Gondor and he exchangesthat good news for other good
news.
Bill the Pony has made its wayback to Bree.
You know, I wrote it down.
(30:14):
I know as a horse girl.
Jessica (30:16):
I assume this news was pleasing to you so happy, made
me so happy, and I love the factthat Sam went in ready to ask
about Bill the Pony, and so Iwas just I was, yeah, two thumbs
way up.
Kritter (30:32):
Two thumbs way up.
They spend like a cute littletime in Bree.
I don't know.
I didn't really write downanything about while they were
there.
Did you have anything thatstood out to you?
Jessica (30:42):
I had a couple of things.
I wrote that clearly stuff is amiss in Bree.
Obviously they came in to avery different tone.
They don't let strangers in.
They don't let strangers inwhen they finally get into the
Prancing.
Pony Butterbeer is commenting onhow the Rangers did more for
them than they even realized,which I think was true for me as
(31:03):
an audience member as well, notrealizing until we really got
into it what service the Rangerswere doing.
Butterbeer made a comment aboutthis is the nicest chat I've
had in a month of mondays.
Just made me giggle.
Yeah, that was precious, um.
And then, of course, mary, witha sick burn over the forgotten
(31:28):
letter yep, it was right beforehe remembered Bill, the pony
right.
Kritter (31:34):
Yes, the daughter bird's, like there was something
else.
Jessica (31:37):
There was something else I was like oh okay, we're
not the only grudge holders Gotit.
I see you, Mary.
Kritter (31:44):
Mary's over here like oh, it's not another letter, is
it?
Which fair, you know it's apretty important letter, yeah,
anyways.
So yeah, it was a fun littlejaunt, fun little time in brie.
Um, and as the party moves todepart, butterbur mentions
offhand that the shire was alsofacing troubles, which reminds
(32:07):
sam of the vision he had ingaladriel's mirror.
Are you getting nervous for theshire now that we're almost
back?
Jessica (32:16):
I am because I left the mirror scene thinking, well,
this could be possible, futurevisions not necessarily
guaranteed future visionsbecause no clarification was
given at the time so I didn'tknow for sure what we were
seeing.
So, seeing how locked down briewas, um yeah, no, it has me
(32:37):
concerned for the shire, it hasthe boys concerned for the shire
, like why have we tarried?
We need to get going.
It's past time for us to getgoing, um.
So I feel that, um, uh, we're,we're late, almost anxiety, like
we got to go and see what thestate of the state is right
(32:58):
right.
Kritter (32:59):
Unfortunately, though, now comes the time for gandalf
to depart from the party.
It's time for him to meet upwith old tom bombadil, a moss
gatherer, now that gandalf'sdays as a stone doomed to
rolling have ended.
Gandalf has been such a problemsolver.
Are you surprised he's notgoing with the hobbits to see
(33:20):
their possible problems with theShire resolved?
Jessica (33:25):
I would like to say yes , but ultimately no.
Right, like Gandalf is allabout defined scope.
It turns out His jobdescription is completely
related to sauron, so I hadtaken note.
I'm like gandalf passes thetorch.
He's essentially telling themthat fixing the shire, whatever
that looks like, that's on youguys.
(33:46):
I'm gonna go have a chat withtom um and I kind of dig it
right like they have beenthrough some stuff.
Kritter (34:00):
Even.
Jessica (34:00):
Butterbur comments about you look like folks who
can deal with trouble out ofhand.
Yeah, no, I think that it'sactually surprisingly right on
brand for Gandalf.
He punched out once Sauron washandled.
Kritter (34:12):
Yeah, that's fair.
He was Sauron's enemy TMm afterall, so now he's got his own
stuff.
Uh, yeah, I was.
Um, he loves the.
He's got a lot of love for thehobbits and so part of me was
like man I don't know if this isin character right I could see
him wanting to help them.
But it also made me proud thathe thought the hobbits could
(34:34):
handle themselves Right.
So that was just like, ah, theydon't need his help anymore.
It's like the, you know, thestudent has become the master
kind of a thing, like you guyscutting the apron strings.
You guys go off on your own andyou'll be fine.
Jessica (34:47):
You'll be just fine, but I do like the fact that he
didn't just Irish goodbye, right, thank God.
He irish goodbye right, thankgod.
He said goodbye, but not forthe last time, not yet um so I
thought that, yeah, I thoughtthat that was great and and to
me it really was a passing of atorch, like you guys got this
(35:08):
yeah, that's exactly what it waspassing of a torch, so
appropriate for the olympicstime.
Kritter (35:13):
um, so mary remarks, once g Gandalf departs, that it
just being the four of themfeels like a dream fading.
Frodo responds that it feelslike falling asleep again and
that's the end of the chapterand the read.
Any final thoughts before wepick an MVP?
Jessica (35:40):
mvp.
Uh, I'm just anxious to seewhat's next right, because the
movie, the credits, would berolling like I don't know, uh,
so that's that's my thought aswe close this out is to hurry up
and finish the book right,because, let us all remember,
jessica has seen the movie.
Kritter (35:54):
She doesn't know what happens at the end of the book.
Why is the book still going?
We don't know.
Jessica (35:59):
So I mean we did this right.
We did this with Bilbo.
We had a farewell tour and hehad to go back home to the Shire
and fight off the SackvilleBagginses for Bag End, which you
know, down with the SackvilleBagginses.
But this is a little bit moreright, like I thought I find
myself looking at the proverbialwatch going.
(36:21):
I thought that would be it.
So I'm eager to see what's leftyeah, okay.
Kritter (36:28):
so we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp
from the characters we've readfor each episode.
Cue the music Jessica, whowould you name as your MVP this
episode?
Jessica (36:43):
Very torn.
Ooh, explain it, lay it out.
I have two picks for what Ifeel are two very good reasons,
two very good reasons.
(37:03):
Um, I, I think that I'm goingto do it, as the honorable
mention goes to Aragorn forcontinuing in his kingly duties
and definitely doing right bythe hill folk and and following
through on promises that weremade, you know, during wartime
and all of that.
But I really feel like, nowthat I'm thinking about it, I
want to give it out to Arwen.
Okay, I want to give it out toArwen for for the gift to Frodo
(37:27):
to ease his spirit, given youknow all that he went through to
save the world.
Uh, given you know all that hewent through to save the world,
um, and I think that that wasthe ultimate kindness to give
that to him because you know hewent through a lot.
Yeah, honestly.
Kritter (37:49):
I so this.
You know, no extreme deedshappened in this chapter, right,
it was very much Lucent's beingtied up.
Let's talk about Gimli andLegolas going on adventures.
Let's talk about Galadrielseparate, fina finally leaving
all this other stuff.
So I agree with you.
I my my strongest instinct wasArwen.
(38:10):
Because of what she did forFrodo and because we didn't
really get any of her motivationor strength of will in the
other chapters.
It was all just kind of likethis is happening and Arwen's a
part of it.
This time she had her talk withher dad and asserted herself,
made the decision that she wassticking behind to be with the
(38:31):
person that she loved.
She granted Frodo her spot onthe ship assuming that's there
was only one and, as you said,she gave him a means to relieve
himself from his burden in acertain way.
So I think the fact that sheobserved what needed to be done
and was gracious enough to bethe one to do it and gift it was
(38:55):
uh yeah, it was noble enough inmy book to deserve mvp, mvp
given.
Not that it was some insanedeed, it was just like a really
nice thing and kind of a strongthing for her to do in her very
brief time as a speakingcharacter.
Yeah, so I agree, I think we'reon the same page here as Arwen.
Yeah, if you listener orwatcher have different thoughts
(39:20):
or the same thoughts, let usknow.
We may have forgotten.
I think Eobor had some coollines, you know, during like the
feast after Theoden's funeralhe gave some mad props to Eowyn
and, I think, aragorn.
So like good speeches there.
Frodo and them hanging out withBilbo and Rivendell was pretty
great.
Galadriel, sick burn.
(39:42):
You know there's a lot ofoptions.
There's a lot of options here.
Jessica (39:44):
I also considered as an honorable mention Treebeard
right Because of the work, thecontinuing work they're doing to
rejuvenate Orthanc and all allof that area.
So I mean, I thought about it,but ultimately Arwen is my
winner yeah, same, and Treebeardhaving like one last drink of
the.
Ent Drought.
(40:05):
Yes, that was so good.
Kritter (40:08):
I love that.
It was really cute.
Um, but yeah, arwen, it isacross the board, but let us
know, know if you pickeddifferently.
Okay, so next week, drumrollplease.
Book six, chapters eight andnine we are finishing the book
and, if you're wondering,there's a lot more to this book
than chapters eight and nine.
You're right, there areappendices, but that is not
(40:31):
required reading for us and thepodcast.
So you are welcome to read theappendices if you so choose, but
we are not going to be coveringit here.
We're probably both going tolike kind of check them out a
little bit.
They may come up during theepisode, they may come up during
the the wrap party which willbe happening after we finish the
book, but it's not.
(40:53):
We're not going to say that youhave to because it's pretty dry
as far as we've seen so far.
Yeah, so chapters eight and ninefinish the book for next week.
Crazy, crazy, crazy.
All right.
So thank you so much for tuningin to our seventh episode of
season four of but Are thereDragons, brought to you by your
(41:13):
host, jessica Sedai, andCritterXD.
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
Shelf Indulgence.
That is it for today.
We are workshopping newcatchphrases for season four, as
always, so let us know onsocial media how you feel about
(41:35):
this one.
Goodbye, dear friends, but notfor the last time, not yet Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter.
Kritter (00:18):
And.
Jessica (00:19):
I'm your host, jess.
Kritter (00:20):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Return
of the King by JRR Tolkien, withme as the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:27):
And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer.
Kritter (00:30):
In this, our seventh episode of season four, we're
going to discuss book six,chapters six and seven Before we
dive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How's the grass?
Jessica (00:42):
The grass is doing overall very well.
It's almost mowable.
Which again grass.
The grass is doing overall verywell, it's almost mowable,
which again sounds like I hearhow silly it sounds, but it's
exciting.
Kritter (00:52):
It is exciting.
Jessica (00:52):
We could see it actually waving in the breeze
which, if you knew how a raucouslike it was, very dune like
back there nine weeks ago.
Kritter (01:03):
So this is a major victory.
It feels like it about you.
Congratulations, oh uh, to thisone.
I'm okay.
Today was like one day in theoffice.
I I go into the office one daya week and, uh, by the end of
that day I'm always, like youknow, kind of just in a daze, so
I'm a little tired, but nowthat it's time to talk about
(01:23):
Lord of the Rings, I think I'mgetting my second wind.
So that's where we're at.
Yeah, right on.
So, speaking of, are you ready?
Jessica (01:32):
I'm ready, let's do this.
Kritter (01:34):
Okay, it is Book 6, chapter 6.
Many Partings.
So Frodo approaches Aragorn andArwen ready to head back home.
Aragorn agrees to accompany himfor part of the journey and
Arwen actually speaks to takeher place, to pass into the West
(01:54):
if he so chooses.
And she also gives him anecklace with a white gem, like
a star, to bring him aid whenthe memory of the darkness and
fear troubles him.
So how are you feeling aboutArwen's brief but arguably
(02:16):
impactful speaking part?
Jessica (02:19):
Very excited, very excited to know that she has a
brain and that she can talk andthat, you know, she seems, by
all accounts, to be a verywilling participant in this is
choosing.
Aragorn is making the choicebased out of love.
Yeah, all of that in really arelatively small interaction,
(02:42):
right, but you can imply all ofthat.
You can connect all of thosedots with this small exchange.
I will say that the gift shegives Frodo, the white gem, made
me think of the pendant thatyou wear, that flower, or that
brooch that she gave Aragorn inthe movie the like, even star
(03:06):
necklace, yes, even star, yes,yeah.
And so I was like I understandthat it's not that and I also
understand that you know, bookversus movie, it doesn't matter.
But I was like, oh interesting,okay, so she's giving it to
Frodo, not Aragorn, and I guessI had just gone off of.
(03:27):
I had made the assumption as amovie watcher that Frodo's place
on the boats was guaranteedbecause of his status as a ring
bearer regardless.
Kritter (03:40):
And maybe it would have been, like you know, but I do
feel like the sentiment wasreally nice, that, like you, can
have my place, because I'm nottaking it chosen the way of
luthien.
You know, presumably in givingcontext clues, even if you
haven't read the silmarillionalthough they did they did, they
have talked about it in thecontext of the trilogy too, but
you know, an elf who chose to bewith a man, like whatever,
(04:02):
chose a mortal life.
So yeah, whether whether therewas one final spot and they're
they're swapping out, or if itwas just kind of the the
sentiment behind it, you know,like I would like to give you
something, so I'm gonna give youthis thing.
That may or may not, you may ormay not need uh.
Either way, it was nice to hearher speak.
(04:23):
In my opinion, yes and uh, andit was like it was get.
You know, it's funny how theelves are.
Well, at least galadriel, theelves are such generous people,
right, they're very like they'regift givers, they it's and I
guess it's not just the elves,but like lots of people in the
books or they give tokens andstuff, which is kind of a fun
(04:44):
thing after random interactions.
It's like here I give you thisthing and you can find out what
it is.
Jessica (04:51):
Cheap swag, right?
Kritter (04:52):
no, the stuff they have been gifted, it's pretty solid
I guess it's kind of giving likeyou know, rpg video game like
you're like you're leveling up,you're putting your stuff in
your pouch or whatever, andgetting better and better gear
as time goes by.
So thanks, arwen, for the supercool necklace that may or may
(05:13):
not be magical in some way.
So Eomer and Gimli reconciletheir differences.
When Eomer shows up to bearTheoden back home, aragorn
grants the people of Gon-Bri-Gonthe forest of Druidon to have
for their own.
Theoden is buried amongst hisforebears.
(05:35):
When Faramir and Eowyn'sbetrothal is announced, aragorn
and Eowyn share joyful words andwe find out that later Legolas
and Gimli went to check out theglittering caves of helm's deep,
as legolas promised, and gimliand legolas also go to fangorn
when they ultimately depart fromthe company.
So tell me, is tolkien theactual master of tying up loose
(05:56):
ends?
And do you have a favoritemoment of all of these?
Jessica (06:00):
I feel like, yes, I definitely feel as though, and I
do have recency bias, mostlybecause by the by the end of a
read, I only remember the vibe.
I don't necessarily remember thewhole thing but, I do feel like
in my recent memory, tolkien isthe one who stitches it at all,
(06:22):
stitches it all up nice andneat and closes down every
storyline, and I love that.
I don't know.
So there were a couple of,really.
And also, frodo wants to goback to Rivendell to see Bilbo
first before he goes.
Gimli and Eomer you know who'scoolest?
(06:43):
Galadriel Arwen why not both?
You know like that was superadorable.
Kritter (06:48):
That was cute yeah.
Jessica (06:49):
I was stoked that Aragorn delivered on the promise
to the wood people and giftedthem the Like I was so proud.
Proud of him for followingthrough on that and Merry
weeping at Théoden's funeralthat was really touching.
I think probably my favoritehas to be the Legolas and Gimli
(07:17):
bro tour, just because I wantedit so bad, so I think that
probably has to win.
Kritter (07:24):
Okay, that's fair.
I liked, I really enjoyed allof it.
I think one of the mostrelieving things for me was the
exchange between Aragorn andEowyn, because it's like they
had this love triangle thatwasn't really a love triangle
because, like he was never intoher, you know.
And then the fact that she'slike you know, be happy for me,
(07:44):
or whatever, whatever, and he'slike I've been wishing for your
happiness ever since the day Imet you.
It's like that's so sweet andnice.
And the fact that they're likeboth in their own relationships,
super happy like nothing.
It was like nothing everhappened.
Um, and yeah, because, uh,while love triangles can be fun
while you're reading them,depending on the book, this one
(08:05):
in particular, because I want tostan eowyn, right, I want her
to be this powerful shieldmaiden.
The fact that she was piningafter him diminished her just
slightly in my eyes, and so nowthat she's like over him, I'm
like I love that for you.
Girlfriend, marrying the princeof I already forgot the name,
the place so good for her, she'sawesome.
Jessica (08:29):
I also think Sorry.
In there, narrator also tellsus that no one sees the last
exchange between Elrond andArwen, but that it's no good
Right.
So until we just talked aboutit, I didn't realize that Frodo
knew Arwen wasn't going to gobefore Elrond knew that Arwen
(08:49):
wasn't going to go.
So yeah, good times.
Kritter (08:55):
So I think the movie did a pretty good job of like
giving us more of thatparticular.
You know, like throughout themovie Elrond was angsty about
arwen's choices and she wasinsisting and eventually
relented and then changed hermind, like there was a lot of
are you going to give up yourimmortal life for a man?
Throughout the movie, which Ithink increased arwen's like
(09:20):
intrigue.
I guess it made her moreinteresting, obviously because
she had dialogue, but um, butalso it made the romance
interesting, obviously becauseshe had dialogue, but um, but
also it made the romance betweenaragorn and arwen more special
than it was in the books to me,because in the books it was very
remote, um, so yeah, yeah,while I think faramir and
eowyn's romance in the books isbetter, I think aragorn and
(09:42):
arwen's books romance in themovies is better.
Jessica (09:44):
I'm just gonna call that yeah, I would agree with
that.
I would agree with that at all.
I don't feel like I knew untilthe last 10 minutes, not the
last 10 minutes, but you know avery, very far into the story,
even right up till theirnuptials, them getting married.
I'm still unclear as to howarwen feels about this whole
(10:05):
situation, right, right.
So I just I know that I don'tlook to look, I don't look to
tolkien for romance, and that'sokay perfectly fine, um, okay,
so the hobbits move to depart.
Kritter (10:21):
Rohan and eowyn grants Merry a gift An heirloom horn
from the horde of Skatha theWorm, a dragon meant to strike
fear in the hearts of enemiesand joy in the hearts of friends
, and to friends sorry, and tofriends gather sorry, and
friends gather to him wheneverhe blows it.
That's basically its powers, Iguess, or the lore.
(10:43):
I feel like that's a prettysolid gift.
As far as gifts go, would yourather the horn that gathers
gifts and invigorates friendsand scares enemies, or the
necklace that arwen gave frodothat, like essentially to me,
feels like a mood stabilizerbased on its description, which
(11:05):
one would you prefer?
Jessica (11:08):
um, I think I'd probably go with a horn, just
because I I don't need a amagical bus pass necklace.
I I don't.
I mean frodo definitely doesthat that boy's got some trauma
he needs to work through, so I'dprobably pick the horn honestly
(11:29):
.
Kritter (11:30):
Yeah, I mean, if you wanted to have any super sick
adventures, definitely the horn,because you know who doesn't
love scaring enemies and callingallies, yeah.
But there's something to besaid.
I about like uh, I don't know,I don't know what I would pick.
A part of me is like thenecklace would be really nice to
(11:52):
just if you're ever like reallystressed out, just gotta hold
it, you know, and it'll make youfeel a little better yeah so I
could go either way.
I think All right.
So the travelers?
They make it to Orthanc, backto Isengard, and we find out
that Treebeard ultimately letSaruman go Seven days earlier,
(12:17):
when he deemed him no longer athreat as he disdains the caging
of living things.
Good choice, bad choice.
Are you worried?
Jessica (12:28):
I felt very split on this because I was very excited
for us to come back to Treebeard, but anything about Saruman,
this is unknown territory for me.
So, I'm like oh yeah, that guy,he's still alive.
And also so you, just, you,just, you just let him go.
(12:49):
I don't, I don't know.
I mean, I'm not usually one whoendorses the, the caging or
restraining of anybody, but youknow, he's, he's kind of earned
his mantle as a pretty bad dude.
Kritter (13:06):
Yeah, he was like maybe the second, he was in the top
five biggest bads of the wholeseries, agreed.
So I don't know, like Iunderstand, not avoiding, you
know, the death penalty, likethey did for gollum or what.
Like you know, we're not, whoam I to decide who gets to live
or die?
But the caging, it kind of madesense to me.
(13:29):
I don't know.
Yeah, so he's wondering,wondering about now we'll see
what happens um at.
When you found out that he wasgone, were you like okay, we're
not gonna hear from him again,or did you expect something more
from him?
Jessica (13:43):
I didn't know what to expect.
I.
I was like uh feels weird tojust have him floating around
loose and not tied up.
So I guess that was probably myclue, right, like that's an end
, that's not tied up.
Kritter (13:57):
If you know Tolkien, hmm, yeah, okay, so we've got a
little literary umami.
It came from a line that madeits way into the movies, but in
a different context.
So Treebeard says to Galadrielit is sad that we shall meet
only thus into the movies, butin a different context.
So Treebeard says to Galadrielit is sad that we shall meet
(14:18):
only thus at the ending, for theworld is changing.
Hold on, and I'm going to do ithow it was in the movies.
I'm going to try.
I feel it in the water, I feelit in the earth and I smell it
in the air.
That was Galadriel in the movie.
I do not think we shall meetagain.
So in the movies, Galadrielsays some of these lines, the
ones that I impersonated, ratheras a beginning to the story as
(14:39):
opposed to an end.
We talked about how sometimesthese things get repurposed and
put in the movies.
Do you like this particularadaptation?
If you remember the line?
Jessica (14:49):
I do so.
First off, thank you, because II was like this seems really
familiar, I think I think it wasin there and maybe just, uh,
swapped around.
So thank you for thatconfirmation.
Yep, um, and I think that it is.
I'm glad that it's in there, nodifferent than the other little
(15:09):
nuggets we found along the way.
I think that it's almost alittle bit more ominous or sad
now versus how they did it.
No, it was kind of ominous,only it was like foreshadowing
in there.
I don't know it just was.
It just hit me as a little bitmore sad, coming from tree beard
in this moment.
Kritter (15:28):
Yeah, I would say in the movie it was more ominous in
the books it was more ominousin the books.
It was more sad right, becauseit was like it's it's kind of
symbolizing the end of the ageright.
Where people are moving on,magic is dwindling, stuff like
that we're just casually talkingabout, like that.
Jessica (15:43):
It's the end of an age.
You know, the third age isending and the fourth age is
about to begin and I'm just like, oh, oh, okay, I don't really
have any frame of reference forthat, but you know, big doings
and shifts in the entire world.
Kritter (16:00):
I'm just like okay turn in the page.
I mean people talking aboutdeparting forever.
I no longer have a place here.
I mean it's all very much likethe age of men is beginning.
There's just so much like youknow, if I could live in Middle
Earth with all the magical elvesand hobbits and dwarves and
everything, hell yeah, that'swhat I would do.
But they're kind of making itsound like that's not what's
(16:20):
going to be, that's not how it'sgoing to be anymore.
Right?
Jessica (16:23):
So it's definitely more sad.
Kritter (16:24):
The dominion of men, mm , hmm, it's definitely more sad
doesn't sound very magical atall I know, like that's what I'm
living in right now.
It's it could be.
It could be way cooler if therewere elves, dragon maybe not
dragons.
I mean it would be cooler ifthere were dragons, a little
more dangerous, but if I had asuper cool horn then who knows?
(16:46):
right um but yeah, I, I likedthe repurposing of it.
When I saw it I was like, oh,Treebeard said this Interesting.
I always thought it wasGaladriel, but these things I've
forgotten, I guess.
So Aragorn then departs fromthe company and they actually
(17:06):
run into Saruman and Wormtongueof all people.
Any standout moments from thisinteraction?
Jessica (17:13):
So when they said that they saw you know, I don't have
it open they said like they sawa beggar in gray and white.
It did immediately make my earsperk up, as it were, thinking
about how we had that momentearlier in the story where they
see somebody wandering aroundTreebeard talks about about you
know, sightings of a figure ingray and and we didn't know if
(17:36):
it was gandalf and turns out itwas saruman.
So I did kind of catch that inthe moment and I was like, oh
okay, so he didn't make it far,we found him yeah, we did find
him, and then he stole mary'stobacco pouch, right oh just
just just a no, no good dirtydog yeah, yeah, what's.
Kritter (18:02):
What's that about?
Jessica (18:03):
my favorite part of this, though.
There were two lines in in ourMon exchange that I loved.
First is Galadriel.
Galadriel's Royal burn yes,sarah Mon is whining that they
won't just leave him be.
And Galadriel's response isbasically we have far better
(18:25):
things to do than concernourselves with you.
And I just was like yes, girl,yeah Him, um.
And then the other one was uh,was like yes, girl, yeah.
And then the other one was wasa negative back.
It said long may your land beshort of leaf.
And I just wrote what aterrible thing to say to a
hobbit.
Kritter (18:44):
I know he knows really mean.
He knows how to poke him,that's for sure.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
The Galadriel line reminded meso much of a line in mad men,
and this isn't.
I'm not gonna spoil anything,but like I think it's uh, don
draper, the main character, getsum into an elevator and
somebody who's kind of like asocial climber gets into the
elevator with him and they'relike ad executives, they're in
(19:07):
suits, whatever, and the socialclimber's talking to him about
something.
He's like you know, I wasthinking about you the other day
, and then he gives him thisanecdote and don is just like I
don't think about you at all.
It was the sickest bird likeliterally, like I don't think
about you at all and there's a,you know, there's like a gift
that's been made out of it.
Whatever iconic you could makethat, you can make a galadriel
(19:30):
don draper gif and it would beperfect.
Jessica (19:33):
It was amazing.
Kritter (19:36):
It was sick.
Okay, so, speaking of Galadriel, before Celeborn and Galadriel
depart from the company, we getthis visual of them, gandalf and
Elrond, sitting together intothe wee hours of the night
conversing about all things pastand present.
Except it wasn't like normal,so to passers-by they would have
(19:58):
appeared gray figures carved instone, memorials of forgotten
things, now lost in unpeopledlands, not moving, rather
speaking mind to mind.
So this felt very otherworldlyto me.
How did it strike you?
Jessica (20:15):
Exactly that.
So the idea I don't think we'veseen an interaction where the
whole interaction is a mentalconnection, right Like there's
been some of that happening kindof as subtext almost in parts
of interactions, but the idea ofthem sitting like monoliths,
(20:37):
you know, gray-scaled monoliths,hanging out and um, the only
thing that's moving, I think itsaid, was you know their eyes,
their, eyes, their eyes, um no,it absolutely smacks of an
ethereal realm and them beingotherworldly indifferent.
Kritter (20:58):
Yeah, it reminded me of , I believe it's whenever
they're in Lothlorien in thefirst movie, galadriel, kind of
like mind melds with them, youknow, and like talks to them
each, sometimes all together,sometimes in turn, and to keep
like zooming in on her face andkate blanchett's, just like
moving her eyes back and forthand granted, it's not the same,
because like she still wasanimated in that way.
(21:18):
She just wasn't talking outloud, which is kind of how this
was, but this was just a wholedifferent level.
You know, like I wish somewherein the world there was like a
courtyard that had like stonestatues of them.
Like how sick would that be?
I would totally visit.
That would be so awesome.
I would just like go hang outin the courtyard, like next to
stone gandalf.
(21:39):
You know, I don't know, oh mygod.
Jessica (21:42):
Yes, I would definitely take pictures with all of them
all of them, and I'm not like a.
Kritter (21:46):
You know what I was gonna say.
I'm not a pipe smoker, butmaybe I would like do it just
there, but instead, no, Iwouldn't, I would just take a
picture with the pipe as if Iwas smoking a pipe, because
isn't that just?
It's?
I don't know, it's a coolvisual.
Let's just put it that way.
It's a really cool visual.
Um, okay, so the remainingmembers of the party make their
(22:06):
way to rivendell, because frodowanted to go see Bilbo and Bilbo
was celebrating his 129thbirthday.
Just shy of, I'm trying toremember the name of him, like
the old hobbit, the oh.
Jessica (22:21):
God, anyway, not Bull Roar.
The other one, the other one,the old Took.
Kritter (22:27):
Yes, yeah, okay, just shy of the old Took's record,
right?
So he was just very old, sweetand sleepy and it just kind of
reminded me of my grandpa.
Do you have any thoughts abouttheir time in Rivendell?
Jessica (22:44):
Again, idyllic, beautiful and very much giving
the sense that it's winding to aclose.
Yeah, I love the fact that itwas a priority of Frodo to make
it back to see Bilbo.
Goodbye gifts from Bilbo.
(23:05):
The fact that he re-gifts themithril coat and sing, you know,
because he's getting up therein years and he accidentally
forgot giving them free advicevery grandfatherly, very, very
grandfatherly, and just hownurturing they all are of Bilbo.
(23:25):
Right, like I don't have, youknow, he's dozing in the corner.
He's like I don't have time toarrange the poetry and why don't
you come back and help me sortit out?
And all this and that, and itwas just precious.
Kritter (23:40):
Yeah, it really reminded me of my grandpa when
he was really He'd live to belike 94 or something in his last
year or two.
That was kind of the vibe wherewe would just go and I would
just sit there with him and we'dlike watch cardinals games and
he might fall asleep and thenwake back up and it was just
like this, I don't know, justlike being together, and that's
(24:01):
kind of how it felt.
They were just there with himand it didn't really matter what
they were doing, what they weretalking about, they were just
spending time and it was at thatpoint.
Jessica (24:09):
The commodity is time.
Kritter (24:12):
Yeah, it was just really precious to me.
It was a good little scenethere.
Okay, so in Rivendell Elrondlet Frodo know that he would be
with Bilbo in the Shire aboutthat time next year in the fall,
and for the end of the chapterFrodo keeps this information to
(24:33):
himself.
Any thoughts before we move on?
Jessica (24:41):
Just that you know, frodo's come a long way and he's
gonna just keep that littlenugget to himself.
I think that that's incrediblyinteresting.
I did have one little piece ofliterary umami right at the
beginning of them getting toRivendell, I think yeah, part of
a, as they were going throughNorthern Dunland.
(25:02):
September came in with goldendays and silver nights and I
just that's not even the wholesentence, like that's just part
of the sentence, but it's justso pretty and very uh, like it
resonates with me about howseptember is.
You know, still have like agolden, warm day, but it's a
little cooler at night a lot oftimes, and just perfect, perfect
(25:26):
umami makes me want fall.
Kritter (25:28):
I love fall so much.
Okay, ready to move on to thenext chapter.
Yep, all righty book six,chapter sorry no, so sorry.
Jessica (25:38):
There was one thing that happened in chapter six.
You don't have to tell me whatit is, but just tell me if it
means anything to you.
As they were wrapping up,kelleborn says to araginsman
farewell.
May your doom be other thanmine and your treasure remain
with you to the end.
So I don't know if that's likea Silmarillion spoiler or
(26:03):
whatever, but why is Celeborntalking about a doom D-O-O-M?
Kritter (26:21):
doom d-o-o-m.
I believe that's a silmarillionspoiler.
Okay, I have an idea what Ithink it is, but I don't want to
say okay, I don't want to spoilanything that's fine.
Jessica (26:27):
If it's a silmarillion spoiler, then I'm happy to let
it go.
But it kind of jumped out at me.
I was like hello boy, you seemlike you have a pretty good deal
.
Kritter (26:36):
Like what kind of doom, what kind of doom you got yeah,
no, that's fair, that's totallyfair that's it.
Jessica (26:43):
That's all I had for chapter six.
Kritter (26:44):
Sorry okay, okay, book six, chapter seven, homeward
bound, which is an excellentmovie if you're a child, albeit
sad.
Um, okay.
So frodo is hurting a year fromthe day he was stabbed on
weathertop.
He wonders how he might findrest, having been fundamentally
changed as he had, and gandalfdoesn't answer, even though
(27:08):
things are better generally.
I think tolkien is doing a goodjob, making me still feel sorry
for Frodo.
How's this hitting for you?
Jessica (27:17):
So I'm not sure why, but this part specifically
really resonated with me.
So I am someone that and Iconsider myself a pretty
positive person, but I am verylikely to say you can never go
home again.
I'm very likely to say you cannever go home again because
whatever your, whatever yourtravels have been, either home's
(27:38):
not the same or you're not thesame.
You know what I mean?
That's, that was a moment intime and it will never be the
same when you go back.
And so I highlighted that asumami, because it's just so
powerful.
I think it just hit a chord withme.
There is no real going back.
Though I may come to the Shire,it will not see the same, will
not seem the same, for I shallnot be the same.
(28:01):
I am wounded with knife, stingin tooth and a long burden.
Where shall I find rest?
And so, yeah, I mean just oneparagraph really, just knocking
me back in my chair for theplight of Frodo.
You know he has done thisincredible thing and he is
(28:22):
forever changed, and what thatmeans to him and what that means
for him going forward.
So yeah, that one really got me.
Kritter (28:33):
Yeah, I believe it.
That a an interesting start tothe chapter.
It was like, was it like thefirst paragraph?
Uh, and just like dang oof, Itook that one right in the chest
, I guess, um, but yeah, I thinktolkien does a really good job
of like making us feel exactlyhow he wants us to feel.
So, whereas the like littletime in rivendell with old bilbo
(28:57):
kind of hit me, like put tuggedon my heartstrings a lot, this,
you know, in this way was itmade, yeah, frodo's having he's
frodo's having a very real, verykind of sad experience and it's
it's we can, we can relate.
You love to see it.
Jessica (29:15):
Um, especially for a character who was essentially
had resigned themselves to thefact that they wouldn't live and
in a lot of ways, that wouldwould have been a simpler ending
for him.
Yeah, and what that means.
Kritter (29:32):
Yeah and sam, at one point, after he thought frodo
was dead, had that same thingwhere he's like do I just end it
?
You know, do I just end now?
That would be easier, it wouldbe easier.
Um so yeah, poor frodo,basically.
Uh, so the hobbits and gandalf,they make it to brie and things
(29:52):
have changed there for theworst.
Fights, fights, ruffians, billFerny stirring up trouble.
Butterbur has been dealing withrough times, but he's heartened
when he finds out that Striderof all people has been crowned
King of Gondor and he exchangesthat good news for other good
news.
Bill the Pony has made its wayback to Bree.
You know, I wrote it down.
(30:14):
I know as a horse girl.
Jessica (30:16):
I assume this news was pleasing to you so happy, made
me so happy, and I love the factthat Sam went in ready to ask
about Bill the Pony, and so Iwas just I was, yeah, two thumbs
way up.
Kritter (30:32):
Two thumbs way up.
They spend like a cute littletime in Bree.
I don't know.
I didn't really write downanything about while they were
there.
Did you have anything thatstood out to you?
Jessica (30:42):
I had a couple of things.
I wrote that clearly stuff is amiss in Bree.
Obviously they came in to avery different tone.
They don't let strangers in.
They don't let strangers inwhen they finally get into the
Prancing.
Pony Butterbeer is commenting onhow the Rangers did more for
them than they even realized,which I think was true for me as
(31:03):
an audience member as well, notrealizing until we really got
into it what service the Rangerswere doing.
Butterbeer made a comment aboutthis is the nicest chat I've
had in a month of mondays.
Just made me giggle.
Yeah, that was precious, um.
And then, of course, mary, witha sick burn over the forgotten
(31:28):
letter yep, it was right beforehe remembered Bill, the pony
right.
Kritter (31:34):
Yes, the daughter bird's, like there was something
else.
Jessica (31:37):
There was something else I was like oh okay, we're
not the only grudge holders Gotit.
I see you, Mary.
Kritter (31:44):
Mary's over here like oh, it's not another letter, is
it?
Which fair, you know it's apretty important letter, yeah,
anyways.
So yeah, it was a fun littlejaunt, fun little time in brie.
Um, and as the party moves todepart, butterbur mentions
offhand that the shire was alsofacing troubles, which reminds
(32:07):
sam of the vision he had ingaladriel's mirror.
Are you getting nervous for theshire now that we're almost
back?
Jessica (32:16):
I am because I left the mirror scene thinking, well,
this could be possible, futurevisions not necessarily
guaranteed future visionsbecause no clarification was
given at the time so I didn'tknow for sure what we were
seeing.
So, seeing how locked down briewas, um yeah, no, it has me
(32:37):
concerned for the shire, it hasthe boys concerned for the shire
, like why have we tarried?
We need to get going.
It's past time for us to getgoing, um.
So I feel that, um, uh, we're,we're late, almost anxiety, like
we got to go and see what thestate of the state is right
(32:58):
right.
Kritter (32:59):
Unfortunately, though, now comes the time for gandalf
to depart from the party.
It's time for him to meet upwith old tom bombadil, a moss
gatherer, now that gandalf'sdays as a stone doomed to
rolling have ended.
Gandalf has been such a problemsolver.
Are you surprised he's notgoing with the hobbits to see
(33:20):
their possible problems with theShire resolved?
Jessica (33:25):
I would like to say yes , but ultimately no.
Right, like Gandalf is allabout defined scope.
It turns out His jobdescription is completely
related to sauron, so I hadtaken note.
I'm like gandalf passes thetorch.
He's essentially telling themthat fixing the shire, whatever
that looks like, that's on youguys.
(33:46):
I'm gonna go have a chat withtom um and I kind of dig it
right like they have beenthrough some stuff.
Kritter (34:00):
Even.
Jessica (34:00):
Butterbur comments about you look like folks who
can deal with trouble out ofhand.
Yeah, no, I think that it'sactually surprisingly right on
brand for Gandalf.
He punched out once Sauron washandled.
Kritter (34:12):
Yeah, that's fair.
He was Sauron's enemy TMm afterall, so now he's got his own
stuff.
Uh, yeah, I was.
Um, he loves the.
He's got a lot of love for thehobbits and so part of me was
like man I don't know if this isin character right I could see
him wanting to help them.
But it also made me proud thathe thought the hobbits could
(34:34):
handle themselves Right.
So that was just like, ah, theydon't need his help anymore.
It's like the, you know, thestudent has become the master
kind of a thing, like you guyscutting the apron strings.
You guys go off on your own andyou'll be fine.
Jessica (34:47):
You'll be just fine, but I do like the fact that he
didn't just Irish goodbye, right, thank God.
He irish goodbye right, thankgod.
He said goodbye, but not forthe last time, not yet um so I
thought that, yeah, I thoughtthat that was great and and to
me it really was a passing of atorch, like you guys got this
(35:08):
yeah, that's exactly what it waspassing of a torch, so
appropriate for the olympicstime.
Kritter (35:13):
um, so mary remarks, once g Gandalf departs, that it
just being the four of themfeels like a dream fading.
Frodo responds that it feelslike falling asleep again and
that's the end of the chapterand the read.
Any final thoughts before wepick an MVP?
Jessica (35:40):
mvp.
Uh, I'm just anxious to seewhat's next right, because the
movie, the credits, would berolling like I don't know, uh,
so that's that's my thought aswe close this out is to hurry up
and finish the book right,because, let us all remember,
jessica has seen the movie.
Kritter (35:54):
She doesn't know what happens at the end of the book.
Why is the book still going?
We don't know.
Jessica (35:59):
So I mean we did this right.
We did this with Bilbo.
We had a farewell tour and hehad to go back home to the Shire
and fight off the SackvilleBagginses for Bag End, which you
know, down with the SackvilleBagginses.
But this is a little bit moreright, like I thought I find
myself looking at the proverbialwatch going.
(36:21):
I thought that would be it.
So I'm eager to see what's leftyeah, okay.
Kritter (36:28):
so we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp
from the characters we've readfor each episode.
Cue the music Jessica, whowould you name as your MVP this
episode?
Jessica (36:43):
Very torn.
Ooh, explain it, lay it out.
I have two picks for what Ifeel are two very good reasons,
two very good reasons.
(37:03):
Um, I, I think that I'm goingto do it, as the honorable
mention goes to Aragorn forcontinuing in his kingly duties
and definitely doing right bythe hill folk and and following
through on promises that weremade, you know, during wartime
and all of that.
But I really feel like, nowthat I'm thinking about it, I
want to give it out to Arwen.
Okay, I want to give it out toArwen for for the gift to Frodo
(37:27):
to ease his spirit, given youknow all that he went through to
save the world.
Uh, given you know all that hewent through to save the world,
um, and I think that that wasthe ultimate kindness to give
that to him because you know hewent through a lot.
Yeah, honestly.
Kritter (37:49):
I so this.
You know, no extreme deedshappened in this chapter, right,
it was very much Lucent's beingtied up.
Let's talk about Gimli andLegolas going on adventures.
Let's talk about Galadrielseparate, fina finally leaving
all this other stuff.
So I agree with you.
I my my strongest instinct wasArwen.
(38:10):
Because of what she did forFrodo and because we didn't
really get any of her motivationor strength of will in the
other chapters.
It was all just kind of likethis is happening and Arwen's a
part of it.
This time she had her talk withher dad and asserted herself,
made the decision that she wassticking behind to be with the
(38:31):
person that she loved.
She granted Frodo her spot onthe ship assuming that's there
was only one and, as you said,she gave him a means to relieve
himself from his burden in acertain way.
So I think the fact that sheobserved what needed to be done
and was gracious enough to bethe one to do it and gift it was
(38:55):
uh yeah, it was noble enough inmy book to deserve mvp, mvp
given.
Not that it was some insanedeed, it was just like a really
nice thing and kind of a strongthing for her to do in her very
brief time as a speakingcharacter.
Yeah, so I agree, I think we'reon the same page here as Arwen.
Yeah, if you listener orwatcher have different thoughts
(39:20):
or the same thoughts, let usknow.
We may have forgotten.
I think Eobor had some coollines, you know, during like the
feast after Theoden's funeralhe gave some mad props to Eowyn
and, I think, aragorn.
So like good speeches there.
Frodo and them hanging out withBilbo and Rivendell was pretty
great.
Galadriel, sick burn.
(39:42):
You know there's a lot ofoptions.
There's a lot of options here.
Jessica (39:44):
I also considered as an honorable mention Treebeard
right Because of the work, thecontinuing work they're doing to
rejuvenate Orthanc and all allof that area.
So I mean, I thought about it,but ultimately Arwen is my
winner yeah, same, and Treebeardhaving like one last drink of
the.
Ent Drought.
(40:05):
Yes, that was so good.
Kritter (40:08):
I love that.
It was really cute.
Um, but yeah, arwen, it isacross the board, but let us
know, know if you pickeddifferently.
Okay, so next week, drumrollplease.
Book six, chapters eight andnine we are finishing the book
and, if you're wondering,there's a lot more to this book
than chapters eight and nine.
You're right, there areappendices, but that is not
(40:31):
required reading for us and thepodcast.
So you are welcome to read theappendices if you so choose, but
we are not going to be coveringit here.
We're probably both going tolike kind of check them out a
little bit.
They may come up during theepisode, they may come up during
the the wrap party which willbe happening after we finish the
book, but it's not.
(40:53):
We're not going to say that youhave to because it's pretty dry
as far as we've seen so far.
Yeah, so chapters eight and ninefinish the book for next week.
Crazy, crazy, crazy.
All right.
So thank you so much for tuningin to our seventh episode of
season four of but Are thereDragons, brought to you by your
(41:13):
host, jessica Sedai, andCritterXD.
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as CritterXD and
Shelf Indulgence.
That is it for today.
We are workshopping newcatchphrases for season four, as
always, so let us know onsocial media how you feel about
(41:35):
this one.
Goodbye, dear friends, but notfor the last time, not yet Bye.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.