June 11, 2024 • 55 mins
Join Kritter and Jessica in their penultimate episode for this season! Here they cover book 4, chapters 6 through 8. Did Frodo lie to Smeagol? Did you know about Minas Morgul? How many stairs are there, geez? They discuss these questions and more!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
Kritter (00:16):
I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host, jess, and
we're continuing this adventurewith the Two Towers by JRR
Tolkien, with me as the residentLord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:26):
And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer In this our
seventh episode of season three.
Kritter (00:32):
We're going to discuss book four, chapters six through
eight.
We are getting so close to theend.
Before we dive in, though,jessica, what's new with you?
Jessica (00:44):
to the end.
Before we dive in, though,jessica, what's new with you?
You know, just getting readyfor summer and all that that
entails.
There's lots of big plans thismonth, so just making sure all
my I's are dotted and T's arecrossed for those events, how
about you?
Kritter (00:59):
I mean same, yep, I have got a big month ahead of me
.
Um, june, it's like december isone of the biggest months for
me because it's like, you know,birthday, my brother's birthday,
christmas, obviously it's.
You know, it's a fun big month.
June is the same way.
Uh, mr critter's birthday isthis month.
My wedding anniversary is thismonth.
Usually we're traveling, andthe same is going to be true
(01:23):
this month.
Uh, father's Day, and it's,yeah, it's, it's, it's.
June is a great month.
I love it.
You know, back in the day whenI was in school, it was the
first full month of summer.
My mom's a teacher, so she'sliving it up right now, you know
, jealous of that.
But June's a great month, oneof my favorites, I'd say.
Jessica (01:47):
Yeah, it's good stuff, for sure for sure.
Kritter (01:48):
Okay, are you ready to get dive into these chapters
ready?
It's a little bit of a shorterum as far as like page numbers
go, so we'll see how, how longthis episode is compared to our
other ones.
I know last episode we went onlike a seven minute rant about
cicadas.
I don't plan to do that today.
So we we'll see.
I mean, but you can never ruleit out with us.
Yeah, anything can happen.
But we're going to get startedon the books, at least for now,
(02:10):
with book four, chapter six, theForbidden Pool.
So Faramir wakes Frodo in thewee hours and leads him to an
overlook above a picturesquepool.
Sam, of course, wakes up,sensing Frodo's departure and
follows them.
Turns out Gollum is fishing inthe pool of Henneth Anun an act
(02:34):
worthy of a death sentence andit's up to Frodo to hold
Faramir's men back from shootinghim down on the spot.
Any thoughts about thissequence?
Jessica (02:44):
What I really love about this sequence and
unfortunately it means my biasis showing is Frodo once again
comes to Gollum's rescue, to atleast a little degree.
We're going to shoot him anyreason why we shouldn't and
Frodo tells them to stay theirhand.
Um, and again, I just I lovewhat that says about frodo's
(03:09):
character.
Take whatever feel, however youwant to feel, about smiegel, um
, what that says about frodo'scharacter, um, is hugely
endearing yeah, I feel like onceagain we get sam wishing that
he would have spoken up and hadthem shoot Gollum.
So that wasn't great.
Kritter (03:28):
Frodo definitely came out of this sequence looking
better than Sam did,unfortunately.
And then I thought it wasreally funny that Faramir he was
just giving he was reallyinterested in the tea about
gollum, right like he, that helike he bore the ring once you
(03:48):
know I'm just seeing him gaspinglike he actually bore the ring
and that you know he's yourguide, all these like facts he's
just like what?
This is amazing.
Um, obviously that maybe I madehim more dramatic about it in
my head, but the way he keptkind of exclaiming when he found
out more information.
Jessica (04:06):
I mean, I don't think you did though, because he's
like I really want to know howhe came to carry your burden,
but we won't.
You know, I'm paraphrasingterribly, but we don't have time
for that now but he wanted thedeets he did, he's like, excuse
me, the thing that you have is Imean, we're talking about the
(04:26):
same thing, right?
Kritter (04:27):
How did that?
They kept calling him like ablack squirrel.
He's been called that multipletimes, so I guess he also in the
books is described somewhatdifferently than he looks in the
movies, right?
Because in the movies I'd givehim like a flesh color or like a
light gray, but every time theytalk about him in the books
it's like a black squirrel, youknow.
(04:48):
So I'm just wondering is helike really?
Is he like dark, you know, likea really shadow colored
creature?
I don't know.
It's interesting, or is it justbecause it's at night?
You know what I mean?
I don't know.
I can't, I'm not sure I likehow they made him look in the
movies though the big, thegigantic eyes from being in the
cave for so long and all thatstuff.
(05:08):
It works for me.
Jessica (05:11):
Yeah, but if you apply that logic, if he were stuck in
the caves for many, many years,his skin would be more washed
out, looking Lighter, closer totranslucent even could be a case
made for it.
Because no light exposureExactly so, I think, unless he's
just straight up dirty.
Kritter (05:31):
Yeah, that's a good.
In my mind, almost every timesomebody spots him from a
distance that isn't familiarwith him, it's at night, and so
that's what I'm thinking is he'sjust like he's always in the
shadows, just a dark figure.
Yeah, he's just a dark figureand so they assume he's, like
you know, a black squirrel whichthey mentioned.
I think you know they havethose things in Mirkwood or
(05:52):
whatever, which we saw in theHobbit, so I thought that was
kind of fun.
Yeah, okay.
So Faramir poses the option toFrodo Gollum must be captured or
slain.
Frodo Gollum must be capturedor slain, and Frodo offers to go
down to Gollum to convince himto return with him and notes
that Faramir's men can slay himif he fails.
(06:13):
I found that to be a reallynoble sentiment to protect
Gollum of all things, and Iassume you agree based on what
you just said.
Jessica (06:21):
I did so this whole section and also, you know,
before he even goes down to tryand bring smiegel back up
voluntarily, he talks about howgandalf wouldn't have wanted you
to slay him either for this andother reasons.
Um, so I, you know that stuckout.
Um, I thought that it was, uh,I thought that you know it was
(06:45):
about know my word is my bond,kind of thing.
That's how that came across tome.
The whole you can strike medown if I, if I don't come back
with him is how I took that.
Um, but I could almost feelFrodo second guessingguessing
himself as he approaches himbecause ultimately he has to
kind of betray Gollum in theconversation to uphold his word
(07:12):
to Faramir.
And so, as treacherous acreature as Gollum is, frodo
never wanted to cross that linewith him and that was the only
way that he was going to be ableto get him back up to faramir
and the other men yeah, to hiscredit.
Kritter (07:28):
I was like paying attention to this, right,
because I remember him.
I want to say it felt more likea lie in the movies and you
will be able to confirm this,because you get to go watch, uh,
the two towers this weekend, orobviously, whenever you're
listening, she will have alreadywatched the two towers because
it'll be, um, shortly beforethis episode comes out.
But, uh, you can confirm laterthat, uh, it does seem in the
(07:51):
movies like he's like trulylying to him, but in the books
he just, I think, neglects tomention that, along with sam
that's up further on the path,there are also these men that
Gollum doesn't know and thatwill be very suspicious of him.
So my question is do you thinkthe way he did this, like trust
(08:14):
me, smeagol, let's go get SamSmeagol and not mentioning the
men, did he play that right?
Jessica (08:21):
I think so I think he tried to do it with.
He tried to minimize damage,right.
He tried to tell as little of alie as possible.
So they were lies of omission,without a doubt, right?
Um, but and he did tell him youknow uh, how did he word it
that we will carry on, but wecannot right now.
And he continues to urge him totrust him further.
(08:45):
So I think that he was doingeverything he could to keep his
word to Faramir and, to you know, not break his, his word to
Gollum either, which Ipersonally believe nobody else
would care if they lied toGollum or if they were
treacherous of his faith.
So, again, just sterlingcharacter on the part of Frodo.
(09:08):
I think that he cared whennobody else would have.
I feel like lots of peopletreat Gollum as though he is not
a sentient creature or acreature that you would have to
keep your word to.
So I think that he did.
I think that it was very tight.
It kind of like you're going tolove this kind of like the
(09:31):
riddles game.
You walk a very razor thin line, but no confidences were broken
.
In my opinion, they were not.
Yeah, so that's my honest take.
Kritter (09:45):
So he played it as well as he could.
Jessica (09:47):
As close to the vest as he could, with as little damage
as possible.
Kritter (09:52):
He walked the tightrope .
Yeah, I tend to agree.
Part of me thinks like man, Iwish he could have been like now
, just so you know there areother people here.
But if you run away they'regoing to shoot you.
So don't run away, right, thatwould be the one I don't think
that would have worked.
I know you think he wouldprobably run away.
Jessica (10:09):
I think he would have run or he would have fought,
like it.
Just I could see that going somany ways that don't end in
Smeagol doing what they want ofhim.
I think that he did what heneeded to do to get Smeagol to
comply um for Smeagol's own goodand tried to minimize how much
lying he had to do in theprocess.
Kritter (10:28):
That's fair.
So a question about Smeagol,although I feel like I've
noticed that you call himSmeagol more and I call him
Gollum more, which I think isfunny.
We're giving Frodo and Sam, inour opinion of Smeagol, slash
Gollum.
I see nothing wrong with this.
Yeah, true, did you notice the?
Jessica (10:47):
green light in golem's eyes when he realized he'd been
made yes, so um, green lightsflickering in his bulging eyes,
and I wrote dang it critter soI'll show you.
You can go in our shared driveand look.
That's not even a lie, that's ahundred percent factual.
Uh, so now all I notice is whatcolor his eyes are, and I 100%
(11:07):
think that when the bad golem isdriving, his eyes are green and
treacherous and scary.
I can't not think it now.
Kritter (11:16):
I am glad well, kind of glad that I alerted you to it.
I do wonder if you would haveeventually put two and two
together there.
Uh, alerted you to it.
I do wonder if you would haveeventually put two and two
together there.
Jessica (11:25):
I'd like to think I would have, but sometimes you
know, big, big things go whooshand right by me and I don't
notice.
So I can't pretend otherwise.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it couldeasily just be like he's got
weird eyes that could have beenthe explanation he is Go so
(12:01):
happy one way or the other,angry in some way or sneaky and
his green eyes led right into mysecond most quoted uh lord of
the rings quote, which is wicked, tricksy, false I love the way
andy circus does it yeah, thatwas uh um, all in caps in my
(12:25):
outline, I'm like, oh yeah, no,this is a thing.
Me and my kids say a lot oh,that's awesome.
Kritter (12:32):
Um, so faramir informs gollum once obviously the men
appear uh to him that the onlyreason he wasn't killed was
because of frodo's protection.
So you would think maybe thatwould help.
And after gollum swears on theprecious to never come back or
lead anyone to the hideout,faramir puts Gollum into Frodo's
care and then grants Frodoleave to freely roam in Gondor,
(12:55):
except back to the hideout.
Were you surprised by Faramir'sjudgment here?
Jessica (13:01):
I was a little and the way that he let him have free
reign but with a doom like anagreement of a doom over their
head, that he would need to goand present himself to the Lord
and steward before he couldreturn to that place, which
sounded a lot like Rohan'spolicy, you know, presenting to
(13:23):
the Lord of the land.
So you know, it definitelyleaves me feeling like Faramir
might be taking uh, I don't wantto say taking advantage, but
exercising a little leniencyhere.
Kritter (13:40):
Yeah, definitely, that's a vibe I got for sure.
Yeah so I do.
I mean, I feel like in my mindright now, faramir can do no
wrong.
So like perfect judgment.
I love it.
It's interesting that I don'tknow if it was here or a little
later on, but he basically saysif Gollum is ever found without
(14:03):
Frodo period in.
Gondor, or did he say evenoutside of Gondor, by the men of
Gondor, you are dead Deathsentence.
I was just like that's prettybrutal, but Gollum did violate
their most sacred laws by beingso it wasn't the fish, it was
the pool, and yeah, yeah right,so I get it.
(14:24):
I mean, it's better than adeath sentence immediately.
Jessica (14:27):
You know that he carries out right away, yeah, so
I did want to point out, youknow, just for a little bit of
that smiegel support, umfairmere puts him to the
question and asks him what thedestination is and, to his
credit, smeagol does not give itup.
Frodo winds up having to answerFaramir.
So as I'm reading that, Irealize how ridiculous it is,
(14:51):
but I'm like he ain't no rat,he's not a snitch, he's got a
lot of flaws, but he's not asnitch.
Kritter (14:58):
He's not a snitch.
He's got a lot of flaws, buthe's not a snitch, so that's
really funny how things likethat stay down to me.
Yeah, you know any redeemablequality?
Jessica (15:07):
yeah, you know later in the chapter, even frodo says
he's not altogether wicked.
Yeah, again it.
The narrative appeals to me,right, because I don't believe
that any person is wholly bad orwholly good, and so yeah.
Kritter (15:23):
Yeah, I don't think he's wholly bad either.
I just think our sliding scalesare in different places.
I have no love for Gollum atall, but obviously I've been
influenced by a lot of factors,so whatever.
Okay.
So when he finds out thatGollum intends to take Frodo to
(15:44):
Cirith Ungol, a place ofsleepless, malice rings of power
dwelt after they were devouredand turned into living ghosts,
(16:05):
so I can't say I recall theringwraiths being described this
way exactly before.
Did you find?
Jessica (16:12):
it interesting.
Not only interesting, butshocking.
So I was like so this tower notonly was taken over by the
enemy, it's taken over like it'sthe nazgul honeycomb hideout
like this is yeah, this is, thisis getting serious, um, and I
honestly don't remember seeinganybody mention this tower in
(16:36):
the movie.
So I can't wait to go to themovies this weekend.
But I don't remember anymention of all the Nazgul
bunking together like roomies.
I don't remember anything likethat from the movies, so I am
very interested.
But it was also a reallychilling description of them as
well, additionally, like theywere already super creepy, so I
(16:56):
just amped that up.
Kritter (16:58):
Yeah, devoured and returned as go like okay, yeah,
good description.
Um, we talked about, didn't wetalk about the fact that, uh, or
last was it?
We said that lord of the ringsdoesn't have zombies or
something, and they were like,well, kind of it kind of does,
depending on your perspective.
Yeah, all right.
So then Frodo asks where elsehe could go, you know, if not
(17:23):
Cirith Ungol and if Faramirwanted him to take the ring to
Gondor.
And this is where Faramirvaries wildly from the movies.
He declines immediately, warnsFrodo of Gollum sensing murder
in him and ultimately wishes himwell in his journey.
And that's the end of thechapter.
Any final thoughts about thislast exchange or the chapter
(17:44):
generally?
Jessica (17:45):
Just permanently secures Faramir a gold star.
Just, he really did live up to.
You know, he walked the walk aswell as talking the talk.
So that was amazing.
Yeah, and he's a far moreinteresting character.
Even having a limited scope inthe book.
(18:08):
He's a far more interestingcharacter than what I got out of
him in the movies, which isjust, you know, oh, you're the
younger brother.
Kritter (18:17):
And in Two Towers at least minor villain, until he
gets redeemed Like.
He does not make life easy forFrodo and Sam and makes several
different decisions than hemakes in the books, which I mean
, you could paint that in thatlight.
Jessica (18:30):
You know the way that he waylays them in Illithian, or
whatever this section of Mordoris called.
You know he definitely slowsthem down, but not without cause
and and doesn't you know?
Kritter (18:44):
yeah, arrest them per se, yeah I mean here like the
reason he well part of thereason he takes them.
He even says he's like thesehills are like crawling with bad
guys, so you, you're not goingto get anywhere in the next, in
the next little bit anyway.
So I feel like this, more thananything, was like yet another
brief respite, the little refuge, like rivendell and law forley
(19:08):
and were before obviously muchbriefer um, and it really like
helped them hit the reset button.
Yeah, in my opinion.
So he treated them well, startto finish, and I just love to
see it yeah, so that's all I hadfor chapter six okay, book four
, chapter seven journey to thecrossroads.
(19:30):
So, speaking of the end withfaramir, faramir bids farewell
to frodo and sam.
Supplementing their packs withextra provisions and gifting
them stout staves made the fairtree lebrethon.
They were a particularlyfitting gift as virtue had been
set upon them of finding andreturning.
(19:51):
So, as far as gifts go, not bad, or do you disagree?
Jessica (19:55):
No, I thought they were awesome.
Kritter (19:57):
Yeah, they're about to do some real hiking, real
climbing.
So the little you know, it'slike he took him to rei and
picked him out the best.
Yeah having a good walkingstick is always good yeah, um
and uh.
So frodo recognizes their valueand the value of his time with
faramir, noting that Elrond wasright and that he'd meet
(20:18):
friendship on his journey,secret and unlooked for.
I kind of love that that likeyeah, prophecy fulfilled, it's
great.
So, as they're leaving, faramirorders Gollum blindfolded for
the path away from the hideout,and Frodo asks that they all
three be blindfolded to make iteasier or more digestible for
Gollum.
(20:38):
Would you have done the same?
No, no, okay, wow.
Jessica (20:44):
I was not expecting that, so I am a control freak.
So having to be blindfolded ora hood over my face, no, I'm
very invested in yourrehabilitation Smeagol, but not
that invested.
Kritter (21:01):
I love that.
I was certain you would saythat you would make the same
choice, because it wasn't nobleone.
Jessica (21:07):
I am all for making accommodations.
You know what I mean.
Like I okay doing things tomake it feel more equitable, to
help people hopefully feel alittle less called out.
I usually am all for that, butnot when it pushes certain
boundaries for me.
I do have some boundaries, okay.
Kritter (21:27):
All right.
Yeah, it was definitely acallback to whenever they were
being led into Lothlory.
And then Frodo even mentionsthe fact that Gimli majorly
protested.
But yeah, he just kind of hewas like, yeah, I'm fine with
that.
So I think that was very itshowed his leadership.
Jessica (21:45):
I think for sure he clearly had learned from, I
guess, aragorn and a very sweetgesture, and we have no idea if
Smeagol appreciated it or not,even but it was still a very
sweet gesture.
Kritter (21:56):
For sure.
So the party branches off ontheir own and at one point, on a
break, sam is the first tosleep and we get a glimpse of
his dream.
He's at bag end, so so tired,in the garden with a heavy pack
weighing him down, and thegarden is in shambles, weeds
everywhere.
He's looking for something andultimately realizes it's his
(22:18):
pipe.
He wakes up and soon realizeshe knows where his pipe is, but
also that he can't use itbecause he doesn't have pipe
weed.
And he's hundreds of miles fromBag End.
We've gotten these little dreamsequences on occasion in the
books.
Did this one speak to you atall?
Jessica (22:35):
As somebody who's stressed dreams yes, did.
It resonated with me.
Um to that, to wake up from adream and just have it.
You know come rushing back toyou, oh, but actually I'm here
in situation x and it is so muchworse, so much worse.
Kritter (22:57):
I actually had a stress dream last night.
Um fun, this, so unrelated toanything, but yeah, I had a
dream the world was ending, likethere was some, like there was
some something coming, like somefirestorm or something, and I,
for some reason, was trying todevelop a way to prevent the
world from ending, rather thanlike living up my last day on
(23:17):
earth or whatever and uh, and Inever figured anything out.
But then some variable changeand it, the world didn't end,
and then I woke up.
It was like you know.
Obviously stress dreams usuallyend with the stress continuing,
but it was, I feel like it wassuch a long dream that it ended
up okay.
Yeah, I don't know, it wasbizarre.
(23:39):
So, yeah, I too willoccasionally have stress dreams.
And let me tell you, I was likeor do we have any bunkers we
can hide in?
You know, all my alternativeswere getting shot down by
everyone, which is frustrating.
So I can see how Sam would belike my God, my garden it's in
shambles and I can't find what.
(23:59):
Am I even looking for?
I don't know.
So, poor guy, like it wasdefinitely indicative of the
Okay, cool, or you wake up andyou're just still so mad Like
you took the mad with you.
Jessica (24:22):
I've had definitely both and for him to just wake up
and be like, well, that's notreal.
But the reality really sucks bycomparison.
It's worse somehow Makes mefeel for our buddy Sam.
Kritter (24:37):
I know Poor guy.
I especially hate it wheneverI'm in the middle of a stress
stream and I wake up and I'mlike, oh my gosh, thank god, and
then I fall back asleep and itkeeps going and I forget, it's a
treat, it's the worst, um,anyways.
So yeah, I thought this was one.
It also kind of reminds me thatthere I think I've talked about
(24:57):
this before but there's thisgame called Valheim, where
you're like explorers in likesort of like in a Norse
mythology setting, because, youknow, if it's storming outside,
you can see Thor flying aboveyou and stuff, but it's your,
you can build that, you cancraft, you and you're going to
explore, and and whenever you goto sleep at night because like
(25:17):
you can pass the night time bygoing to sleep it'll like pop a
dream up, you know, and there'ssometimes they're so random and
you just read, you can read them, and it kind of reminds me of
this one.
It's like you're looking forsomething, but you don't know
what you're looking for, you,and then you find it.
You know, it's like there'sthese little like calm dream
passages, and that's what thisone kind of reminded me of.
(25:39):
Anyways, so many tangents, butwe're back, uh, the party then
gets sent, sorry, the party thengets to the crossroads, and
this was one time I did consultthe map in the book just to kind
of orient myself, because I'm,you know, it's like wait, okay,
so mordor is east, osgiliath issouth.
(26:02):
What's north, not uh, what'swest?
Not sure you know anyway, so Ihad to look it up.
Did you do the same?
uh, no, but I'm doing it nowright, because I'm like okay,
this is a four-way stop here.
Where are all the directionsheaded?
Jessica (26:17):
I will say I did look at some, because it did talk
about how Osgiliath was to thewest, I think Was it Because I
could have sworn?
Kritter (26:27):
when I looked at it, it was to the south.
Now I have to look again.
This is clearly a problem.
Jessica (26:32):
You shouldn't believe me.
Kritter (26:34):
Oh, you know what it is to the west.
Sorry, the word is like writtenover the path to the south, but
the dot is on the path to thewest.
So, yeah, your girl needs towork on map reading.
Um, but you're right, gilead isto the west.
Jessica (26:48):
I do believe in a previous episode I shared that I
had a very poor map skillsgrade in third grade that I
still haven't gotten over.
Kritter (26:57):
Yeah, and the north path, just it leads to, oh
Henneth Anun, so that's wherethey were.
And then the south path is justSouth Ithilien.
There's nothing really of notedown there, basically.
So now we know.
Jessica (27:16):
But with all of the talk about the crossroads.
Definitely, as this chapterprogresses, it gets just clearer
and clearer that gollum istruly driving them yeah, it's
like gotta get to the crossroads, gotta keep going, gotta keep
going like yeah, it was really.
It was quite intense.
I was like, oh yeah, that's notlight at all.
Kritter (27:37):
It's very heavy-handed and blatantly obvious that he is
driving them forward, yeah, andthat they're, and in frodo's
clearly struggling definitely,um, yes, so at the crossroads,
in a brief break from thecovering darkness because it
seems in this land it's verydark a lot of the time stormy
(27:58):
Frodo noticed a broken statue ofa king.
It was headless but he caughtsight of the head.
Nearby, in the sunbeams, anddespite being otherwise defaced,
a plant of small white flowerscreated a crown upon its head
and Frodo noted they cannotconquer forever before the sun
(28:19):
was once again lost.
And that is it for the chapter.
Any final thoughts about thator anything else in the chapter?
Jessica (28:27):
I had a couple, so I had there was talk of while they
were going to going I thinkthey were still on their way to
the crossroads about thempassing under a spiny thicket,
like the thicket is so tall thatthe hobbits could fit under it.
I thought that that was very,uh, descriptive.
Um, and then it talks aboutthere's a red glare that keeps
(28:51):
getting mentioned, which, atthis point again, based on my
movie knowledge at least, I'mlike I'm assuming that this is
context clues throughout thechapter of the eye.
So whenever they mentioned thered gleam, I'm like this is
either a reflection of or anemanation of the eye and it must
(29:14):
be relatively facing in thatdirection to be casting light.
Kritter (29:18):
The gaze of Sauron.
Jessica (29:20):
Yes, I like it, I like that interpretation.
And then the last, yes, thelast thing that I had is that
Frodo and Sam were havingdialogue about Gollum having
taken off again and Frododefending him yet again.
So Sam's mentioning how he'sessentially useless.
(29:43):
He's useless and he's done nogood, nothing but serve his own
purposes.
And Frodo defends him sayingyou forget the marshes, and I
hope nothing has happened to him.
And again, I know I have bias,but at the same time, whenever
he does this, I feel like therehave been a couple of instances
and there's another one nextchapter, where Sam gets very
(30:08):
absolute and black and white andFrodo goes oh, that's not
exactly how that went down.
And so, as opposed to it justbeing indulgence, maybe of
Smeagol, he's going no, you, youmissed something, you forgot
something like stay even handedwhen you're talking about these
things.
And so, yeah, that stuck out tome.
Kritter (30:29):
You're clearly not subjective, or sorry?
You're clearly not objective.
You're looking at this verysubjectively with not the
opposite of rose-colored glasses, so you got to think about the
facts.
Yeah, I appreciate Frodo forthat very even-handed logical
approach.
All right, so is that it forChapter 7?
That's it for 7.
Okay, last chapter of thisreading, book four, chapter
(30:55):
eight, the Stairs of KirithAngol.
So where the tower of MinasIthil, the moon tower, glowed
with the imprisoned light of themoon, the tower of Minas Morgul
was paler indeed than the moon,ailing in some slow eclipse,
the light of it wavering andblowing like a noisome
(31:18):
exhalation of decay, a corpselight, a light that illuminated
nothing.
There were rotten meadows, ormeads as they called them, and
twisted statues.
Jessica (31:30):
So this, this whole vibe, pretty foreboding, no yeah
, it sounds like they'veabsolutely ruined it and turned
it into a nightmare scape yeah,like, like I'm picturing you
know it's, it's giving wheneverthe um mystery machine rolls up
to a mansion.
Kritter (31:47):
You know eldritch fog.
Yeah, oh yeah, like you know,you're playing arkham horror and
the description of, like one ofthe places you're approaching
it's got a green hue about itand whatever else like yeah, it
definitely painted a picture,yeah, yeah.
So frodo is immediately heavilyaffected by this tower and
(32:10):
proceeds zombie we've got morezombies proceed, zombie like,
toward the bridge to the toweruntil sam and gollum stop him.
Then, as they're retreating, heinsists the ring is weighing
too heavily on him and he needsa rest.
So for me this was stressfuland frustrating.
Like frodo, you get what areyou?
What are you doing?
Jessica (32:29):
Get out of there.
How did you take it?
I thought that it's crazy howsometimes the ring really weighs
on him a lot, and so I was leftto infer that the ring was
weighing on him and acting onhim because of the presence and
(32:49):
the closeness to the Nazgul, theringwraiths, yeah, and that the
ring was actively trying to gethim to go to the city to get
caught.
Like there's no two ways aboutit.
Even the narrator confirms itthe ring is actively trying to
make him go to the city.
You know that's mostlyterrifying's.
Kritter (33:13):
Uh, it's like imparting .
It's what it has a will right.
Jessica (33:17):
That's, that's and it's imposing its will on him, right
, which is horrifying, to saythe least and then I had just
made a note, not that way.
Uh, which is a quote, and it'slike when sam both sam and
gollum agree, you know it'sserious.
They're like no, no, yeah,sam's like I, I agree with him.
(33:38):
I actually agree with him thistime.
Kritter (33:40):
This is a bad idea yeah , that, uh, you know, something
is very important at that point.
So some crazy stuff goes downat the tower Blue flames,
lightning and an army issuesforth with the lord of the nine
riders who stabbed Frodo atopWeathertop at their head.
He seems to be looking forsomething and Frodo has a real
(34:05):
internal battle about bustingout the ring, but he wins it by
grasping the file of Galadrielfor strength.
How did you feel about thesequence and the callback to the
file of Galadriel?
I think was this the firstmention of it since it was
gifted to them?
Jessica (34:23):
Yes, so even better than the rope right Like oh,
even I forgot that this was intheir bag of tricks and the fact
that it helped break the swayof whatever was influencing him
was incredible.
And again, for all I know, wastrue and was there subtextually
(34:45):
in the movies, but was so muchbetter on the page.
Kritter (34:50):
Yeah, I think the file.
The file is a bigger part ofthe books, I think, than it was
in the movies.
Jessica (34:56):
The file was very cool to read through this chapter,
especially how it influenced howthis all went down and how it
helped Frodo break free of thering's influence.
Kritter (35:10):
Yeah, and the way Galadrielriel described it
whenever she gave it to them,right, may it be a light in dark
places.
And so often so far in thisregion of the world it's been
described as like it's justalways night here it's so dark
it's so dark here, um, the, theweight of the ring on frodo, is
this dark influence right?
the the black riders up ahead,all of this stuff is just like
(35:34):
so horrifying and imposing andevil and, you know,
metaphorically dark in some ways, but physically as well, and uh
, and the fact that the it couldbe a light for him and help him
overcome it, I thought wasreally great and I yeah, I I
don't know that that's what hedid in the movie.
(35:57):
I don't know if the file wasreally part of that, which is
funny because I've seen themovies so many times.
I don't remember him clutchingthe file, though we'll know, let
me know.
Jessica (36:05):
Yeah, we'll know more next week.
Kritter (36:07):
Um, all right.
So after the army passed andsam roused frodo, they began to
ascend the stairs, lots and lotsof stairs.
I got secondhand tired readingthis.
How about you?
Jessica (36:23):
yeah, and I have vertigo issues.
So every time you talk aboutthem running their hands and the
wall would just stop I'm likenope that's a nope.
Kritter (36:31):
Well, yeah, and they describe the stairs as like more
or less a ladder.
So I'm over here just like, ohgod, imagine, you know, because
like there's nothing behind them, right, they're just climbing
and I've, I've literally hadseats high enough in a concert
venue that I wouldn't stand uplike I just sat.
Jessica (36:50):
Um, so the idea of doing that, you know, free range
over a, a straight drop, is uh.
Yeah, I was like that's verydescriptive.
It was very effective for me.
Kritter (37:02):
Good job, yeah yeah, not a not a fun thing to
consider.
Um, so let's see what.
Sam and Frodo take a break atthe top of the stair before
proceeding onward and have anabsolutely lovely conversation.
Like, let me tell you, Iabsolutely of this conversation
(37:24):
because it's like one of thehighlights, it's one of the most
perfect examples of literaryumami for me in the series that
I remember.
So please bear with us becauseI just love it so much and I
(37:48):
want to do it now.
Jessica (37:50):
So, jessica, and for the record, I agreed to it
because I agree that it was anincredible scene to read, so I
was willing to try and do thisdramatic reading.
Okay, great, I don't likeanything here at all.
(38:11):
Said Frodo, step or stone?
Kritter (38:14):
breath or bone, said Sam, and we shouldn't be here at
all if we'd known more about itbefore we started.
But I suppose it's often thatway.
The brave things in the oldtales and songs, mr Frodo
adventures as I used to callthem, mr Frodo adventures as I
used to call them I used tothink that they were things the
(38:35):
wonderful folk of the storieswent out and looked for because
they wanted them, because theywere exciting and life was a bit
dull, a kind of a sport, as youmight say.
But that's not the way of it.
With the tales that reallymattered, or the ones that stay
in the mind, folk seem to havebeen just landed in them.
Usually their paths were laidthat way, as you put it, but I
(38:56):
expect they had lots of chances,like us, of turning back.
Only they didn't.
And if they had, we shouldn'tknow because they'd have been
forgotten.
We hear about those as justwent on, and not all to a good
end, mind you, at least not towhat Fulkencite's story, and not
outside it, call a good end,you know, coming home and
(39:18):
finding things all right, thoughnot quite the same like old Mr
Bilbo.
But those aren't always thebest tales to hear, though they
may be the best tales to getlanded in, I wonder what sort of
a tale we've fallen into endedin.
Jessica (39:35):
I wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into.
I wonder, said Frodo, but Idon't know.
And that's the way of a realtale.
Take any one that you're fondof.
You may know or guess what kindof a tale it is happy ending or
sad ending but the people in itdon't know and you don't want
them to.
Kritter (39:49):
No, sir, of course not.
Baron.
Now, he never thought he wasgoing to get that Silmaril from
the Iron Crown and Thangor Drim,and yet he did.
And that was a worse place anda blacker danger than ours.
But that's a long tale, ofcourse.
And he goes past the happinessand into grief and beyond it.
And the Silmaril went on andcame to Yonendale and beyond it.
(40:13):
And the Silmaril went on andcame to Yonendale.
And why, sir, I never thoughtof that before?
We've got, you've got, some ofthe light of it in that star
glass and that lady gave you.
Why think of it?
We're in the same tale.
Still it's going on.
Don't the great tales never end?
Jessica (40:28):
No, they never end as tales, but the people in them
come and go when their partsended.
Our part will end later.
Kritter (40:37):
Or sooner, and then we can have some rest and some
sleep, said Sam.
He laughed grimly.
And I mean just that, mr Frodo.
I mean plain, ordinary rest andsleep and waking up to a
morning's work in the garden.
I'm afraid that's all I'mhoping for all the time.
All the big, important plansare not for my sort.
(41:00):
Still, I wonder if we shallever be put into songs or tales.
We're in one, of course, but Imean put into words, you know,
told by the fireside or read outof a great big book with red
and black letters years andyears afterwards.
And people will say let's hearabout Frodo and the Ring.
And they'll say, yes, that'sone of my favorite stories.
(41:22):
Frodo was very brave, wasn't heDad?
Yes, my boy the famousest ofthe hobbits, and that's saying a
lot.
Jessica (41:30):
It's saying a lot too much, said frodo, and he laughed
, a long, clear laugh from hisheart.
Such a sound had not been heardin those places since sauron
came to middle earth.
To sam, suddenly, it seemed asif all the stones were listening
and the tall rocks leaning overthem, but frodo did not heed
them.
He laughed, laughed again.
Why, sam?
(41:51):
He said.
To hear you somehow makes me asmerry as if the story was
already written.
But you've left out one of thechief characters, samwise the
stout-hearted.
I want to hear more about Sam,dad.
Why didn't they put in more ofhis talk, dad?
That's what I like.
It makes me laugh.
(42:12):
And Frodo wouldn't have gottenfar without Sam, would he Dad?
Kritter (42:17):
Now Mr Frodo said Sam, you shouldn't make fun, I was
serious.
Jessica (42:22):
So was I said Frodo, and so I am.
Kritter (42:29):
I love that part so much.
Jessica (42:32):
I'm just going to say we did a really good job.
Neither of us is crying.
Kritter (42:35):
Not yet Take the win.
I'm going to take the win.
I don't know, my heart justlike explodes whenever I read
that passage every time.
Yeah, I actually so much like Ilove the part.
Also, it's presenteddifferently, but in the Two
Towers, sam has a speech that'svery, very similar.
The Two Towers Sam has a speechthat's very, very similar and
if you're watching on YouTubeyou can see.
(42:58):
But I have this likeillustrated version of the
speech that he gives in the TwoTowers that I got on Etsy and
it's like the cutest thing ever.
It's got like the differenttowers, it's got Sting, it's
just.
It's so cute because I love itso much, but it's interesting
that it is.
It's definitely abbreviated inthe movies, but it's still
incredibly inspirational andthis just I don't know it
demonstrates their love for eachother.
(43:19):
It's just this beautiful momentin such a dark place and I just
one of my favorites, honestlyone of my favorite things from
from the Lord of the Rings booksso far that that we've
encountered.
Jessica (43:33):
Yeah, it was.
Uh, it was probably one of theuh most tender moments in my
read.
Yeah, it's right out there.
Kritter (43:43):
I know I love it.
I want to hear more about Sam.
It kills me every time.
Um, so, okay, we can move on.
Uh, let us know in the commentsor on the Discord if you
appreciated it as much as we did, because, dang, I love it.
(44:03):
So whenever they're hanging outthere, sam reiterates his
distrust of Gollum and predictsthat if they get to the border,
into Mordor oh, I kind of rhymedGollum won't just let them go
through without making some kindof trouble.
Now I know we give Sam griefabout his nastiness toward
Gollum, but what he's sayingrings a bit true, especially
given Gollum's casiness aboutwhether the path is guarded and
(44:27):
that green light that keepsshowing up in his eyes.
So are you sympathizing withSam anymore?
As we're approaching, this isall coming to a head,
essentially.
Jessica (44:37):
I mean I am, but I think that Frodo gets it.
So what I liked about thisinner exchange is that Frodo
says if he's false, he's false.
Frodo has never said you're offbase, that's not true.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
He's just said this is thelandscape, this is what we need
to do.
He's the means to an end.
(45:01):
And I had actually highlightedthis whole passage because I
thought that it was interestingto hear Frodo's take on Gollum's
perspective, because for allthat he defends him and looks
out for him and is gentler withhim than others, we don't really
hear a lot of insight into whatFrodo actually thinks is going
(45:26):
on behind the scenes for Gollum.
So he's like regarding Gollum,he says very likely he can't
guess himself.
And I don't think he's likeregarding Gollum, he says very
likely he can't guess himself.
And I don't think he's got justone plain scheme in his muddled
head.
I think he really is, in part,trying to save the precious from
the enemy as long as he can,for that would be the last
disaster for himself too, if theenemy got it and in the other
(45:48):
part, perhaps he's just bidinghis time and waiting on chance,
which has been my perspective,this whole get like I.
I think that he is very cleverand that he's just waiting to
see what kind of opportunityshakes loose.
But to frodo's point.
You know nobody, nobody.
Frodo and sam, frodo and gollum.
Neither of them want the ringin the enemy's hand yeah.
Kritter (46:13):
So the enemy of my enemy yeah, it's my friend, kind
of it's real things, yeah, yeah, okay.
So regardless of how nasty samthinks gollum is, we get another
side of him the next time wesee him.
So when he, frodo and Sam haveboth fallen asleep, frodo's head
(46:33):
cradled in Sam's lap in a verytender sort of a pose, gollum
looks at them and the gleamfades from his eyes, leaving
them old and gray.
He appears to be engaging insome interior debate, looking up
towards the past.
Then he reaches out and touchesFrodo's knee and for a fleeting
(46:54):
moment, could one of thesleepers have seen him?
They would have thought thatthey beheld an old, weary hobbit
, shrunken by the years that hadcarried him far beyond his time
, beyond friends and kin and thefields and streams of youth.
An old, starved, pitiable thing.
And then Sam wakes up andaccuses him of sneaking.
(47:17):
This fleeting moment passes andthe green light in Gollum's
eyes returns.
So do you think Smeagol almosttook over there?
I do.
Jessica (47:29):
Honestly I do.
I think that we don't get a lotof times where Frodo is doing a
charitable thing and we don't alot of times get Gollum's
perspective on that.
But I wouldn't assume thatmeans that Gollum isn't noticing
what's happening, and even inhis dialogue he talks about nice
master, although sometimes itis very sarcastic.
(47:51):
But he does talk about nicemaster versus the rude little
hobbit meaning sam.
So he does differentiatebetween the different types of
treatment that he's getting um,and I do.
I do believe that this was avery close moment where smiegel
almost broke through um and,unfortunately, sam's negativity.
Kritter (48:12):
You know, sam's snap judgment based on all that has
happened pushes him firmly backinto stinker land, into Gollum
land particularly um toughpassage for tolkien to write,
(48:37):
like it was kind of an emotionalthing for him just because it
was.
It was smiegel on the brinkright.
That's kind of what it felt,like he was at a crossroads and
I whether it was what sam saidor inevitable, it did feel very
much so like inevitable.
Jessica (48:57):
It did feel very much so like sam kind of ruined it,
which is so sad, but at the sametime he has every reason to
suspect gollum and has everyreason to want to protect frodo
from him yeah, facts true, it'sa tough, it's a tough situation.
Kritter (49:11):
um.
So, as they're headed up on thesingular path straight up the
mountain, frodo tries to releaseGollum from service, noting
that, with one way up and in,their bargain was pretty much
complete, but Gollum declinesand insists on continuing on,
and that's the end of thechapter.
Any final thoughts before wepick an MVP?
Jessica (49:34):
There were a couple.
I had pointed out that if he'sfalse, he's false.
But then there was also amoment where, when they were
talking about the fairy tales alittle further on from where we
read why even Gollum might begood in a tale.
(49:55):
Uh, and so again, being aGollum stan, I was like that's
very sweet.
Um and just the idea of how Samsaid I'd keep watch over you if
you lay near with my arm aroundyou, Just incredibly sweet.
And and the very end was Samsaying, yes, I called him a
(50:17):
sneak, yes, I said it.
I said I was sorry, but prettysoon I'm not going to be sorry
anymore.
Uh, you know so Sam's kind ofbeing a little hard, but in this
moment he owns it.
He said it, he did the thing,he tried to apologize for it.
It just wasn't enough, yeah.
Kritter (50:36):
Okay, was that it, that's it.
Okay, well, we've got atradition where we pick an MVP
from the chapters we've read foreach episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode, jessica?
Who would you?
Jessica (50:55):
name as your MVP.
This episode I'm going to throwback to Faramir.
Okay, he ended strong.
He didn't disappoint me.
He ended in this section strong.
You know he's left the scene Ihave no reason to know whether
or not he'll come back or when.
And he really was a benefactorto them while he was with them.
(51:21):
He tried to help them withinformation, he tried to keep
them safe.
He, you know, was an ambassador, you know, for Gondor to them.
So I think I'm going to give itup for Faramir, really looking
out for them and, to your point,giving them that last little
respite of safety, a littlebastion, a little moment, a
(51:42):
little breath.
I think that that's important,given the stair climb that
happened afterwards.
Kritter (51:50):
Yeah for sure.
Okay, good choice.
So I'm going to tell you who Iconsidered first and then I'll
tell you who I'm picking.
So I legitimately consideredgaladriel because, um, the file
is really what clutched upwhenever that the king of the
ring, wraiths, was nearby, kindof sniffing, looking for the
(52:12):
ring, becauseraiths was nearby,kind of sniffing, looking for
the ring, because it was almostlike he could sense it and Frodo
overcame that urge that thering was pulling him on by using
the file that Galadriel was sowise in giving to him.
But I am going to pick Frodo asmy MVP this episode just because
(52:34):
he knew, or he had the I don'tknow wherewithal to use the
resources that were given to himin a very, very tough situation
.
Handed and logical andreasonable he was when it came
to gollum.
He played that negotiation withgollum as well as he could,
(52:58):
right, because he kept him alive, which is the, the ideal thing
in that situation.
Um, and even though he did havesome missteps, where he, you
know, tried to go across thebridge into kirith, uncle, that
wasn't his fault, you know.
He's under a lot of pressure.
So I think, given everythingthat he, he kind of earned it,
(53:22):
you know, and and it as part ofthe little the speech that we
read.
He was so sweet for calling samout and like making him feel
good about himself too, and andI just can't give it to Sam,
cause he's, he's just such anegative, nancy, aside from that
cute little moment, that it'sjust not him this time, even
though I love him to death,absolutely adore him, but he's
(53:45):
just.
He's so negative and and and heturned.
He might've been the reasonthat Smeagol turned Gollum Right
have been the reason thatSmeagol turned Gollum right.
Jessica (53:52):
So, yeah, that was heartbreaking to read.
Honestly, being somebody who isrooting for Gollum, yeah, even
though I realized what you knowa losing ticket, that is yeah, I
was like God, it really couldhave been so different.
Kritter (54:15):
It could have, but it's not.
So, yeah, it's Frodo, for forme, faramir, for you both,
strong, strong choices.
As always.
Let us know in the comments oron discord, um, or on social
media, who your mvp is for thisepisode, if it varies from us or
if it's the same, never forgetthat galadriel's an option.
If you want to go with myoriginal line of thinking, um,
and yeah, we just, we lovehearing from you all, uh and uh,
(54:37):
and yeah, if you have, if youhave your take, let us know what
it is okay so for next week.
That's it.
Read for next week book four,chapters nine through ten finish
the book.
Thank you so much for tuninginto episode seven of season
three of but are there dragonsbrought to you by your hosts,
Jessica Sadai and critter XD?
(54:57):
Don't forget to follow us at.
But are there dragons onYouTube, Instagram and Tik TOK
and butt dragons pod?
Just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as critter XD and
shelf indulgence.
That is it for today.
We are workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 3, so
let us know on social media howyou feel about this one.
(55:18):
Go, with the goodwill of allgood men and women, Bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
Kritter (00:16):
I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host, jess, and
we're continuing this adventurewith the Two Towers by JRR
Tolkien, with me as the residentLord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:26):
And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer In this our
seventh episode of season three.
Kritter (00:32):
We're going to discuss book four, chapters six through
eight.
We are getting so close to theend.
Before we dive in, though,jessica, what's new with you?
Jessica (00:44):
to the end.
Before we dive in, though,jessica, what's new with you?
You know, just getting readyfor summer and all that that
entails.
There's lots of big plans thismonth, so just making sure all
my I's are dotted and T's arecrossed for those events, how
about you?
Kritter (00:59):
I mean same, yep, I have got a big month ahead of me
.
Um, june, it's like december isone of the biggest months for
me because it's like, you know,birthday, my brother's birthday,
christmas, obviously it's.
You know, it's a fun big month.
June is the same way.
Uh, mr critter's birthday isthis month.
My wedding anniversary is thismonth.
Usually we're traveling, andthe same is going to be true
(01:23):
this month.
Uh, father's Day, and it's,yeah, it's, it's, it's.
June is a great month.
I love it.
You know, back in the day whenI was in school, it was the
first full month of summer.
My mom's a teacher, so she'sliving it up right now, you know
, jealous of that.
But June's a great month, oneof my favorites, I'd say.
Jessica (01:47):
Yeah, it's good stuff, for sure for sure.
Kritter (01:48):
Okay, are you ready to get dive into these chapters
ready?
It's a little bit of a shorterum as far as like page numbers
go, so we'll see how, how longthis episode is compared to our
other ones.
I know last episode we went onlike a seven minute rant about
cicadas.
I don't plan to do that today.
So we we'll see.
I mean, but you can never ruleit out with us.
Yeah, anything can happen.
But we're going to get startedon the books, at least for now,
(02:10):
with book four, chapter six, theForbidden Pool.
So Faramir wakes Frodo in thewee hours and leads him to an
overlook above a picturesquepool.
Sam, of course, wakes up,sensing Frodo's departure and
follows them.
Turns out Gollum is fishing inthe pool of Henneth Anun an act
(02:34):
worthy of a death sentence andit's up to Frodo to hold
Faramir's men back from shootinghim down on the spot.
Any thoughts about thissequence?
Jessica (02:44):
What I really love about this sequence and
unfortunately it means my biasis showing is Frodo once again
comes to Gollum's rescue, to atleast a little degree.
We're going to shoot him anyreason why we shouldn't and
Frodo tells them to stay theirhand.
Um, and again, I just I lovewhat that says about frodo's
(03:09):
character.
Take whatever feel, however youwant to feel, about smiegel, um
, what that says about frodo'scharacter, um, is hugely
endearing yeah, I feel like onceagain we get sam wishing that
he would have spoken up and hadthem shoot Gollum.
So that wasn't great.
Kritter (03:28):
Frodo definitely came out of this sequence looking
better than Sam did,unfortunately.
And then I thought it wasreally funny that Faramir he was
just giving he was reallyinterested in the tea about
gollum, right like he, that helike he bore the ring once you
(03:48):
know I'm just seeing him gaspinglike he actually bore the ring
and that you know he's yourguide, all these like facts he's
just like what?
This is amazing.
Um, obviously that maybe I madehim more dramatic about it in
my head, but the way he keptkind of exclaiming when he found
out more information.
Jessica (04:06):
I mean, I don't think you did though, because he's
like I really want to know howhe came to carry your burden,
but we won't.
You know, I'm paraphrasingterribly, but we don't have time
for that now but he wanted thedeets he did, he's like, excuse
me, the thing that you have is Imean, we're talking about the
(04:26):
same thing, right?
Kritter (04:27):
How did that?
They kept calling him like ablack squirrel.
He's been called that multipletimes, so I guess he also in the
books is described somewhatdifferently than he looks in the
movies, right?
Because in the movies I'd givehim like a flesh color or like a
light gray, but every time theytalk about him in the books
it's like a black squirrel, youknow.
(04:48):
So I'm just wondering is helike really?
Is he like dark, you know, likea really shadow colored
creature?
I don't know.
It's interesting, or is it justbecause it's at night?
You know what I mean?
I don't know.
I can't, I'm not sure I likehow they made him look in the
movies though the big, thegigantic eyes from being in the
cave for so long and all thatstuff.
(05:08):
It works for me.
Jessica (05:11):
Yeah, but if you apply that logic, if he were stuck in
the caves for many, many years,his skin would be more washed
out, looking Lighter, closer totranslucent even could be a case
made for it.
Because no light exposureExactly so, I think, unless he's
just straight up dirty.
Kritter (05:31):
Yeah, that's a good.
In my mind, almost every timesomebody spots him from a
distance that isn't familiarwith him, it's at night, and so
that's what I'm thinking is he'sjust like he's always in the
shadows, just a dark figure.
Yeah, he's just a dark figureand so they assume he's, like
you know, a black squirrel whichthey mentioned.
I think you know they havethose things in Mirkwood or
(05:52):
whatever, which we saw in theHobbit, so I thought that was
kind of fun.
Yeah, okay.
So Faramir poses the option toFrodo Gollum must be captured or
slain.
Frodo Gollum must be capturedor slain, and Frodo offers to go
down to Gollum to convince himto return with him and notes
that Faramir's men can slay himif he fails.
(06:13):
I found that to be a reallynoble sentiment to protect
Gollum of all things, and Iassume you agree based on what
you just said.
Jessica (06:21):
I did so this whole section and also, you know,
before he even goes down to tryand bring smiegel back up
voluntarily, he talks about howgandalf wouldn't have wanted you
to slay him either for this andother reasons.
Um, so I, you know that stuckout.
Um, I thought that it was, uh,I thought that you know it was
(06:45):
about know my word is my bond,kind of thing.
That's how that came across tome.
The whole you can strike medown if I, if I don't come back
with him is how I took that.
Um, but I could almost feelFrodo second guessingguessing
himself as he approaches himbecause ultimately he has to
kind of betray Gollum in theconversation to uphold his word
(07:12):
to Faramir.
And so, as treacherous acreature as Gollum is, frodo
never wanted to cross that linewith him and that was the only
way that he was going to be ableto get him back up to faramir
and the other men yeah, to hiscredit.
Kritter (07:28):
I was like paying attention to this, right,
because I remember him.
I want to say it felt more likea lie in the movies and you
will be able to confirm this,because you get to go watch, uh,
the two towers this weekend, orobviously, whenever you're
listening, she will have alreadywatched the two towers because
it'll be, um, shortly beforethis episode comes out.
But, uh, you can confirm laterthat, uh, it does seem in the
(07:51):
movies like he's like trulylying to him, but in the books
he just, I think, neglects tomention that, along with sam
that's up further on the path,there are also these men that
Gollum doesn't know and thatwill be very suspicious of him.
So my question is do you thinkthe way he did this, like trust
(08:14):
me, smeagol, let's go get SamSmeagol and not mentioning the
men, did he play that right?
Jessica (08:21):
I think so I think he tried to do it with.
He tried to minimize damage,right.
He tried to tell as little of alie as possible.
So they were lies of omission,without a doubt, right?
Um, but and he did tell him youknow uh, how did he word it
that we will carry on, but wecannot right now.
And he continues to urge him totrust him further.
(08:45):
So I think that he was doingeverything he could to keep his
word to Faramir and, to you know, not break his, his word to
Gollum either, which Ipersonally believe nobody else
would care if they lied toGollum or if they were
treacherous of his faith.
So, again, just sterlingcharacter on the part of Frodo.
(09:08):
I think that he cared whennobody else would have.
I feel like lots of peopletreat Gollum as though he is not
a sentient creature or acreature that you would have to
keep your word to.
So I think that he did.
I think that it was very tight.
It kind of like you're going tolove this kind of like the
(09:31):
riddles game.
You walk a very razor thin line, but no confidences were broken
.
In my opinion, they were not.
Yeah, so that's my honest take.
Kritter (09:45):
So he played it as well as he could.
Jessica (09:47):
As close to the vest as he could, with as little damage
as possible.
Kritter (09:52):
He walked the tightrope .
Yeah, I tend to agree.
Part of me thinks like man, Iwish he could have been like now
, just so you know there areother people here.
But if you run away they'regoing to shoot you.
So don't run away, right, thatwould be the one I don't think
that would have worked.
I know you think he wouldprobably run away.
Jessica (10:09):
I think he would have run or he would have fought,
like it.
Just I could see that going somany ways that don't end in
Smeagol doing what they want ofhim.
I think that he did what heneeded to do to get Smeagol to
comply um for Smeagol's own goodand tried to minimize how much
lying he had to do in theprocess.
Kritter (10:28):
That's fair.
So a question about Smeagol,although I feel like I've
noticed that you call himSmeagol more and I call him
Gollum more, which I think isfunny.
We're giving Frodo and Sam, inour opinion of Smeagol, slash
Gollum.
I see nothing wrong with this.
Yeah, true, did you notice the?
Jessica (10:47):
green light in golem's eyes when he realized he'd been
made yes, so um, green lightsflickering in his bulging eyes,
and I wrote dang it critter soI'll show you.
You can go in our shared driveand look.
That's not even a lie, that's ahundred percent factual.
Uh, so now all I notice is whatcolor his eyes are, and I 100%
(11:07):
think that when the bad golem isdriving, his eyes are green and
treacherous and scary.
I can't not think it now.
Kritter (11:16):
I am glad well, kind of glad that I alerted you to it.
I do wonder if you would haveeventually put two and two
together there.
Uh, alerted you to it.
I do wonder if you would haveeventually put two and two
together there.
Jessica (11:25):
I'd like to think I would have, but sometimes you
know, big, big things go whooshand right by me and I don't
notice.
So I can't pretend otherwise.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it couldeasily just be like he's got
weird eyes that could have beenthe explanation he is Go so
(12:01):
happy one way or the other,angry in some way or sneaky and
his green eyes led right into mysecond most quoted uh lord of
the rings quote, which is wicked, tricksy, false I love the way
andy circus does it yeah, thatwas uh um, all in caps in my
(12:25):
outline, I'm like, oh yeah, no,this is a thing.
Me and my kids say a lot oh,that's awesome.
Kritter (12:32):
Um, so faramir informs gollum once obviously the men
appear uh to him that the onlyreason he wasn't killed was
because of frodo's protection.
So you would think maybe thatwould help.
And after gollum swears on theprecious to never come back or
lead anyone to the hideout,faramir puts Gollum into Frodo's
care and then grants Frodoleave to freely roam in Gondor,
(12:55):
except back to the hideout.
Were you surprised by Faramir'sjudgment here?
Jessica (13:01):
I was a little and the way that he let him have free
reign but with a doom like anagreement of a doom over their
head, that he would need to goand present himself to the Lord
and steward before he couldreturn to that place, which
sounded a lot like Rohan'spolicy, you know, presenting to
(13:23):
the Lord of the land.
So you know, it definitelyleaves me feeling like Faramir
might be taking uh, I don't wantto say taking advantage, but
exercising a little leniencyhere.
Kritter (13:40):
Yeah, definitely, that's a vibe I got for sure.
Yeah so I do.
I mean, I feel like in my mindright now, faramir can do no
wrong.
So like perfect judgment.
I love it.
It's interesting that I don'tknow if it was here or a little
later on, but he basically saysif Gollum is ever found without
(14:03):
Frodo period in.
Gondor, or did he say evenoutside of Gondor, by the men of
Gondor, you are dead Deathsentence.
I was just like that's prettybrutal, but Gollum did violate
their most sacred laws by beingso it wasn't the fish, it was
the pool, and yeah, yeah right,so I get it.
(14:24):
I mean, it's better than adeath sentence immediately.
Jessica (14:27):
You know that he carries out right away, yeah, so
I did want to point out, youknow, just for a little bit of
that smiegel support, umfairmere puts him to the
question and asks him what thedestination is and, to his
credit, smeagol does not give itup.
Frodo winds up having to answerFaramir.
So as I'm reading that, Irealize how ridiculous it is,
(14:51):
but I'm like he ain't no rat,he's not a snitch, he's got a
lot of flaws, but he's not asnitch.
Kritter (14:58):
He's not a snitch.
He's got a lot of flaws, buthe's not a snitch, so that's
really funny how things likethat stay down to me.
Yeah, you know any redeemablequality?
Jessica (15:07):
yeah, you know later in the chapter, even frodo says
he's not altogether wicked.
Yeah, again it.
The narrative appeals to me,right, because I don't believe
that any person is wholly bad orwholly good, and so yeah.
Kritter (15:23):
Yeah, I don't think he's wholly bad either.
I just think our sliding scalesare in different places.
I have no love for Gollum atall, but obviously I've been
influenced by a lot of factors,so whatever.
Okay.
So when he finds out thatGollum intends to take Frodo to
(15:44):
Cirith Ungol, a place ofsleepless, malice rings of power
dwelt after they were devouredand turned into living ghosts,
(16:05):
so I can't say I recall theringwraiths being described this
way exactly before.
Did you find?
Jessica (16:12):
it interesting.
Not only interesting, butshocking.
So I was like so this tower notonly was taken over by the
enemy, it's taken over like it'sthe nazgul honeycomb hideout
like this is yeah, this is, thisis getting serious, um, and I
honestly don't remember seeinganybody mention this tower in
(16:36):
the movie.
So I can't wait to go to themovies this weekend.
But I don't remember anymention of all the Nazgul
bunking together like roomies.
I don't remember anything likethat from the movies, so I am
very interested.
But it was also a reallychilling description of them as
well, additionally, like theywere already super creepy, so I
(16:56):
just amped that up.
Kritter (16:58):
Yeah, devoured and returned as go like okay, yeah,
good description.
Um, we talked about, didn't wetalk about the fact that, uh, or
last was it?
We said that lord of the ringsdoesn't have zombies or
something, and they were like,well, kind of it kind of does,
depending on your perspective.
Yeah, all right.
So then Frodo asks where elsehe could go, you know, if not
(17:23):
Cirith Ungol and if Faramirwanted him to take the ring to
Gondor.
And this is where Faramirvaries wildly from the movies.
He declines immediately, warnsFrodo of Gollum sensing murder
in him and ultimately wishes himwell in his journey.
And that's the end of thechapter.
Any final thoughts about thislast exchange or the chapter
(17:44):
generally?
Jessica (17:45):
Just permanently secures Faramir a gold star.
Just, he really did live up to.
You know, he walked the walk aswell as talking the talk.
So that was amazing.
Yeah, and he's a far moreinteresting character.
Even having a limited scope inthe book.
(18:08):
He's a far more interestingcharacter than what I got out of
him in the movies, which isjust, you know, oh, you're the
younger brother.
Kritter (18:17):
And in Two Towers at least minor villain, until he
gets redeemed Like.
He does not make life easy forFrodo and Sam and makes several
different decisions than hemakes in the books, which I mean
, you could paint that in thatlight.
Jessica (18:30):
You know the way that he waylays them in Illithian, or
whatever this section of Mordoris called.
You know he definitely slowsthem down, but not without cause
and and doesn't you know?
Kritter (18:44):
yeah, arrest them per se, yeah I mean here like the
reason he well part of thereason he takes them.
He even says he's like thesehills are like crawling with bad
guys, so you, you're not goingto get anywhere in the next, in
the next little bit anyway.
So I feel like this, more thananything, was like yet another
brief respite, the little refuge, like rivendell and law forley
(19:08):
and were before obviously muchbriefer um, and it really like
helped them hit the reset button.
Yeah, in my opinion.
So he treated them well, startto finish, and I just love to
see it yeah, so that's all I hadfor chapter six okay, book four
, chapter seven journey to thecrossroads.
(19:30):
So, speaking of the end withfaramir, faramir bids farewell
to frodo and sam.
Supplementing their packs withextra provisions and gifting
them stout staves made the fairtree lebrethon.
They were a particularlyfitting gift as virtue had been
set upon them of finding andreturning.
(19:51):
So, as far as gifts go, not bad, or do you disagree?
Jessica (19:55):
No, I thought they were awesome.
Kritter (19:57):
Yeah, they're about to do some real hiking, real
climbing.
So the little you know, it'slike he took him to rei and
picked him out the best.
Yeah having a good walkingstick is always good yeah, um
and uh.
So frodo recognizes their valueand the value of his time with
faramir, noting that Elrond wasright and that he'd meet
(20:18):
friendship on his journey,secret and unlooked for.
I kind of love that that likeyeah, prophecy fulfilled, it's
great.
So, as they're leaving, faramirorders Gollum blindfolded for
the path away from the hideout,and Frodo asks that they all
three be blindfolded to make iteasier or more digestible for
Gollum.
(20:38):
Would you have done the same?
No, no, okay, wow.
Jessica (20:44):
I was not expecting that, so I am a control freak.
So having to be blindfolded ora hood over my face, no, I'm
very invested in yourrehabilitation Smeagol, but not
that invested.
Kritter (21:01):
I love that.
I was certain you would saythat you would make the same
choice, because it wasn't nobleone.
Jessica (21:07):
I am all for making accommodations.
You know what I mean.
Like I okay doing things tomake it feel more equitable, to
help people hopefully feel alittle less called out.
I usually am all for that, butnot when it pushes certain
boundaries for me.
I do have some boundaries, okay.
Kritter (21:27):
All right.
Yeah, it was definitely acallback to whenever they were
being led into Lothlory.
And then Frodo even mentionsthe fact that Gimli majorly
protested.
But yeah, he just kind of hewas like, yeah, I'm fine with
that.
So I think that was very itshowed his leadership.
Jessica (21:45):
I think for sure he clearly had learned from, I
guess, aragorn and a very sweetgesture, and we have no idea if
Smeagol appreciated it or not,even but it was still a very
sweet gesture.
Kritter (21:56):
For sure.
So the party branches off ontheir own and at one point, on a
break, sam is the first tosleep and we get a glimpse of
his dream.
He's at bag end, so so tired,in the garden with a heavy pack
weighing him down, and thegarden is in shambles, weeds
everywhere.
He's looking for something andultimately realizes it's his
(22:18):
pipe.
He wakes up and soon realizeshe knows where his pipe is, but
also that he can't use itbecause he doesn't have pipe
weed.
And he's hundreds of miles fromBag End.
We've gotten these little dreamsequences on occasion in the
books.
Did this one speak to you atall?
Jessica (22:35):
As somebody who's stressed dreams yes, did.
It resonated with me.
Um to that, to wake up from adream and just have it.
You know come rushing back toyou, oh, but actually I'm here
in situation x and it is so muchworse, so much worse.
Kritter (22:57):
I actually had a stress dream last night.
Um fun, this, so unrelated toanything, but yeah, I had a
dream the world was ending, likethere was some, like there was
some something coming, like somefirestorm or something, and I,
for some reason, was trying todevelop a way to prevent the
world from ending, rather thanlike living up my last day on
(23:17):
earth or whatever and uh, and Inever figured anything out.
But then some variable changeand it, the world didn't end,
and then I woke up.
It was like you know.
Obviously stress dreams usuallyend with the stress continuing,
but it was, I feel like it wassuch a long dream that it ended
up okay.
Yeah, I don't know, it wasbizarre.
(23:39):
So, yeah, I too willoccasionally have stress dreams.
And let me tell you, I was likeor do we have any bunkers we
can hide in?
You know, all my alternativeswere getting shot down by
everyone, which is frustrating.
So I can see how Sam would belike my God, my garden it's in
shambles and I can't find what.
(23:59):
Am I even looking for?
I don't know.
So, poor guy, like it wasdefinitely indicative of the
Okay, cool, or you wake up andyou're just still so mad Like
you took the mad with you.
Jessica (24:22):
I've had definitely both and for him to just wake up
and be like, well, that's notreal.
But the reality really sucks bycomparison.
It's worse somehow Makes mefeel for our buddy Sam.
Kritter (24:37):
I know Poor guy.
I especially hate it wheneverI'm in the middle of a stress
stream and I wake up and I'mlike, oh my gosh, thank god, and
then I fall back asleep and itkeeps going and I forget, it's a
treat, it's the worst, um,anyways.
So yeah, I thought this was one.
It also kind of reminds me thatthere I think I've talked about
(24:57):
this before but there's thisgame called Valheim, where
you're like explorers in likesort of like in a Norse
mythology setting, because, youknow, if it's storming outside,
you can see Thor flying aboveyou and stuff, but it's your,
you can build that, you cancraft, you and you're going to
explore, and and whenever you goto sleep at night because like
(25:17):
you can pass the night time bygoing to sleep it'll like pop a
dream up, you know, and there'ssometimes they're so random and
you just read, you can read them, and it kind of reminds me of
this one.
It's like you're looking forsomething, but you don't know
what you're looking for, you,and then you find it.
You know, it's like there'sthese little like calm dream
passages, and that's what thisone kind of reminded me of.
(25:39):
Anyways, so many tangents, butwe're back, uh, the party then
gets sent, sorry, the party thengets to the crossroads, and
this was one time I did consultthe map in the book just to kind
of orient myself, because I'm,you know, it's like wait, okay,
so mordor is east, osgiliath issouth.
(26:02):
What's north, not uh, what'swest?
Not sure you know anyway, so Ihad to look it up.
Did you do the same?
uh, no, but I'm doing it nowright, because I'm like okay,
this is a four-way stop here.
Where are all the directionsheaded?
Jessica (26:17):
I will say I did look at some, because it did talk
about how Osgiliath was to thewest, I think Was it Because I
could have sworn?
Kritter (26:27):
when I looked at it, it was to the south.
Now I have to look again.
This is clearly a problem.
Jessica (26:32):
You shouldn't believe me.
Kritter (26:34):
Oh, you know what it is to the west.
Sorry, the word is like writtenover the path to the south, but
the dot is on the path to thewest.
So, yeah, your girl needs towork on map reading.
Um, but you're right, gilead isto the west.
Jessica (26:48):
I do believe in a previous episode I shared that I
had a very poor map skillsgrade in third grade that I
still haven't gotten over.
Kritter (26:57):
Yeah, and the north path, just it leads to, oh
Henneth Anun, so that's wherethey were.
And then the south path is justSouth Ithilien.
There's nothing really of notedown there, basically.
So now we know.
Jessica (27:16):
But with all of the talk about the crossroads.
Definitely, as this chapterprogresses, it gets just clearer
and clearer that gollum istruly driving them yeah, it's
like gotta get to the crossroads, gotta keep going, gotta keep
going like yeah, it was really.
It was quite intense.
I was like, oh yeah, that's notlight at all.
Kritter (27:37):
It's very heavy-handed and blatantly obvious that he is
driving them forward, yeah, andthat they're, and in frodo's
clearly struggling definitely,um, yes, so at the crossroads,
in a brief break from thecovering darkness because it
seems in this land it's verydark a lot of the time stormy
(27:58):
Frodo noticed a broken statue ofa king.
It was headless but he caughtsight of the head.
Nearby, in the sunbeams, anddespite being otherwise defaced,
a plant of small white flowerscreated a crown upon its head
and Frodo noted they cannotconquer forever before the sun
(28:19):
was once again lost.
And that is it for the chapter.
Any final thoughts about thator anything else in the chapter?
Jessica (28:27):
I had a couple, so I had there was talk of while they
were going to going I thinkthey were still on their way to
the crossroads about thempassing under a spiny thicket,
like the thicket is so tall thatthe hobbits could fit under it.
I thought that that was very,uh, descriptive.
Um, and then it talks aboutthere's a red glare that keeps
(28:51):
getting mentioned, which, atthis point again, based on my
movie knowledge at least, I'mlike I'm assuming that this is
context clues throughout thechapter of the eye.
So whenever they mentioned thered gleam, I'm like this is
either a reflection of or anemanation of the eye and it must
(29:14):
be relatively facing in thatdirection to be casting light.
Kritter (29:18):
The gaze of Sauron.
Jessica (29:20):
Yes, I like it, I like that interpretation.
And then the last, yes, thelast thing that I had is that
Frodo and Sam were havingdialogue about Gollum having
taken off again and Frododefending him yet again.
So Sam's mentioning how he'sessentially useless.
(29:43):
He's useless and he's done nogood, nothing but serve his own
purposes.
And Frodo defends him sayingyou forget the marshes, and I
hope nothing has happened to him.
And again, I know I have bias,but at the same time, whenever
he does this, I feel like therehave been a couple of instances
and there's another one nextchapter, where Sam gets very
(30:08):
absolute and black and white andFrodo goes oh, that's not
exactly how that went down.
And so, as opposed to it justbeing indulgence, maybe of
Smeagol, he's going no, you, youmissed something, you forgot
something like stay even handedwhen you're talking about these
things.
And so, yeah, that stuck out tome.
Kritter (30:29):
You're clearly not subjective, or sorry?
You're clearly not objective.
You're looking at this verysubjectively with not the
opposite of rose-colored glasses, so you got to think about the
facts.
Yeah, I appreciate Frodo forthat very even-handed logical
approach.
All right, so is that it forChapter 7?
That's it for 7.
Okay, last chapter of thisreading, book four, chapter
(30:55):
eight, the Stairs of KirithAngol.
So where the tower of MinasIthil, the moon tower, glowed
with the imprisoned light of themoon, the tower of Minas Morgul
was paler indeed than the moon,ailing in some slow eclipse,
the light of it wavering andblowing like a noisome
(31:18):
exhalation of decay, a corpselight, a light that illuminated
nothing.
There were rotten meadows, ormeads as they called them, and
twisted statues.
Jessica (31:30):
So this, this whole vibe, pretty foreboding, no yeah
, it sounds like they'veabsolutely ruined it and turned
it into a nightmare scape yeah,like, like I'm picturing you
know it's, it's giving wheneverthe um mystery machine rolls up
to a mansion.
Kritter (31:47):
You know eldritch fog.
Yeah, oh yeah, like you know,you're playing arkham horror and
the description of, like one ofthe places you're approaching
it's got a green hue about itand whatever else like yeah, it
definitely painted a picture,yeah, yeah.
So frodo is immediately heavilyaffected by this tower and
(32:10):
proceeds zombie we've got morezombies proceed, zombie like,
toward the bridge to the toweruntil sam and gollum stop him.
Then, as they're retreating, heinsists the ring is weighing
too heavily on him and he needsa rest.
So for me this was stressfuland frustrating.
Like frodo, you get what areyou?
What are you doing?
Jessica (32:29):
Get out of there.
How did you take it?
I thought that it's crazy howsometimes the ring really weighs
on him a lot, and so I was leftto infer that the ring was
weighing on him and acting onhim because of the presence and
(32:49):
the closeness to the Nazgul, theringwraiths, yeah, and that the
ring was actively trying to gethim to go to the city to get
caught.
Like there's no two ways aboutit.
Even the narrator confirms itthe ring is actively trying to
make him go to the city.
You know that's mostlyterrifying's.
Kritter (33:13):
Uh, it's like imparting .
It's what it has a will right.
Jessica (33:17):
That's, that's and it's imposing its will on him, right
, which is horrifying, to saythe least and then I had just
made a note, not that way.
Uh, which is a quote, and it'slike when sam both sam and
gollum agree, you know it'sserious.
They're like no, no, yeah,sam's like I, I agree with him.
(33:38):
I actually agree with him thistime.
Kritter (33:40):
This is a bad idea yeah , that, uh, you know, something
is very important at that point.
So some crazy stuff goes downat the tower Blue flames,
lightning and an army issuesforth with the lord of the nine
riders who stabbed Frodo atopWeathertop at their head.
He seems to be looking forsomething and Frodo has a real
(34:05):
internal battle about bustingout the ring, but he wins it by
grasping the file of Galadrielfor strength.
How did you feel about thesequence and the callback to the
file of Galadriel?
I think was this the firstmention of it since it was
gifted to them?
Jessica (34:23):
Yes, so even better than the rope right Like oh,
even I forgot that this was intheir bag of tricks and the fact
that it helped break the swayof whatever was influencing him
was incredible.
And again, for all I know, wastrue and was there subtextually
(34:45):
in the movies, but was so muchbetter on the page.
Kritter (34:50):
Yeah, I think the file.
The file is a bigger part ofthe books, I think, than it was
in the movies.
Jessica (34:56):
The file was very cool to read through this chapter,
especially how it influenced howthis all went down and how it
helped Frodo break free of thering's influence.
Kritter (35:10):
Yeah, and the way Galadrielriel described it
whenever she gave it to them,right, may it be a light in dark
places.
And so often so far in thisregion of the world it's been
described as like it's justalways night here it's so dark
it's so dark here, um, the, theweight of the ring on frodo, is
this dark influence right?
the the black riders up ahead,all of this stuff is just like
(35:34):
so horrifying and imposing andevil and, you know,
metaphorically dark in some ways, but physically as well, and uh
, and the fact that the it couldbe a light for him and help him
overcome it, I thought wasreally great and I yeah, I I
don't know that that's what hedid in the movie.
(35:57):
I don't know if the file wasreally part of that, which is
funny because I've seen themovies so many times.
I don't remember him clutchingthe file, though we'll know, let
me know.
Jessica (36:05):
Yeah, we'll know more next week.
Kritter (36:07):
Um, all right.
So after the army passed andsam roused frodo, they began to
ascend the stairs, lots and lotsof stairs.
I got secondhand tired readingthis.
How about you?
Jessica (36:23):
yeah, and I have vertigo issues.
So every time you talk aboutthem running their hands and the
wall would just stop I'm likenope that's a nope.
Kritter (36:31):
Well, yeah, and they describe the stairs as like more
or less a ladder.
So I'm over here just like, ohgod, imagine, you know, because
like there's nothing behind them, right, they're just climbing
and I've, I've literally hadseats high enough in a concert
venue that I wouldn't stand uplike I just sat.
Jessica (36:50):
Um, so the idea of doing that, you know, free range
over a, a straight drop, is uh.
Yeah, I was like that's verydescriptive.
It was very effective for me.
Kritter (37:02):
Good job, yeah yeah, not a not a fun thing to
consider.
Um, so let's see what.
Sam and Frodo take a break atthe top of the stair before
proceeding onward and have anabsolutely lovely conversation.
Like, let me tell you, Iabsolutely of this conversation
(37:24):
because it's like one of thehighlights, it's one of the most
perfect examples of literaryumami for me in the series that
I remember.
So please bear with us becauseI just love it so much and I
(37:48):
want to do it now.
Jessica (37:50):
So, jessica, and for the record, I agreed to it
because I agree that it was anincredible scene to read, so I
was willing to try and do thisdramatic reading.
Okay, great, I don't likeanything here at all.
(38:11):
Said Frodo, step or stone?
Kritter (38:14):
breath or bone, said Sam, and we shouldn't be here at
all if we'd known more about itbefore we started.
But I suppose it's often thatway.
The brave things in the oldtales and songs, mr Frodo
adventures as I used to callthem, mr Frodo adventures as I
used to call them I used tothink that they were things the
(38:35):
wonderful folk of the storieswent out and looked for because
they wanted them, because theywere exciting and life was a bit
dull, a kind of a sport, as youmight say.
But that's not the way of it.
With the tales that reallymattered, or the ones that stay
in the mind, folk seem to havebeen just landed in them.
Usually their paths were laidthat way, as you put it, but I
(38:56):
expect they had lots of chances,like us, of turning back.
Only they didn't.
And if they had, we shouldn'tknow because they'd have been
forgotten.
We hear about those as justwent on, and not all to a good
end, mind you, at least not towhat Fulkencite's story, and not
outside it, call a good end,you know, coming home and
(39:18):
finding things all right, thoughnot quite the same like old Mr
Bilbo.
But those aren't always thebest tales to hear, though they
may be the best tales to getlanded in, I wonder what sort of
a tale we've fallen into endedin.
Jessica (39:35):
I wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into.
I wonder, said Frodo, but Idon't know.
And that's the way of a realtale.
Take any one that you're fondof.
You may know or guess what kindof a tale it is happy ending or
sad ending but the people in itdon't know and you don't want
them to.
Kritter (39:49):
No, sir, of course not.
Baron.
Now, he never thought he wasgoing to get that Silmaril from
the Iron Crown and Thangor Drim,and yet he did.
And that was a worse place anda blacker danger than ours.
But that's a long tale, ofcourse.
And he goes past the happinessand into grief and beyond it.
And the Silmaril went on andcame to Yonendale and beyond it.
(40:13):
And the Silmaril went on andcame to Yonendale.
And why, sir, I never thoughtof that before?
We've got, you've got, some ofthe light of it in that star
glass and that lady gave you.
Why think of it?
We're in the same tale.
Still it's going on.
Don't the great tales never end?
Jessica (40:28):
No, they never end as tales, but the people in them
come and go when their partsended.
Our part will end later.
Kritter (40:37):
Or sooner, and then we can have some rest and some
sleep, said Sam.
He laughed grimly.
And I mean just that, mr Frodo.
I mean plain, ordinary rest andsleep and waking up to a
morning's work in the garden.
I'm afraid that's all I'mhoping for all the time.
All the big, important plansare not for my sort.
(41:00):
Still, I wonder if we shallever be put into songs or tales.
We're in one, of course, but Imean put into words, you know,
told by the fireside or read outof a great big book with red
and black letters years andyears afterwards.
And people will say let's hearabout Frodo and the Ring.
And they'll say, yes, that'sone of my favorite stories.
(41:22):
Frodo was very brave, wasn't heDad?
Yes, my boy the famousest ofthe hobbits, and that's saying a
lot.
Jessica (41:30):
It's saying a lot too much, said frodo, and he laughed
, a long, clear laugh from hisheart.
Such a sound had not been heardin those places since sauron
came to middle earth.
To sam, suddenly, it seemed asif all the stones were listening
and the tall rocks leaning overthem, but frodo did not heed
them.
He laughed, laughed again.
Why, sam?
(41:51):
He said.
To hear you somehow makes me asmerry as if the story was
already written.
But you've left out one of thechief characters, samwise the
stout-hearted.
I want to hear more about Sam,dad.
Why didn't they put in more ofhis talk, dad?
That's what I like.
It makes me laugh.
(42:12):
And Frodo wouldn't have gottenfar without Sam, would he Dad?
Kritter (42:17):
Now Mr Frodo said Sam, you shouldn't make fun, I was
serious.
Jessica (42:22):
So was I said Frodo, and so I am.
Kritter (42:29):
I love that part so much.
Jessica (42:32):
I'm just going to say we did a really good job.
Neither of us is crying.
Kritter (42:35):
Not yet Take the win.
I'm going to take the win.
I don't know, my heart justlike explodes whenever I read
that passage every time.
Yeah, I actually so much like Ilove the part.
Also, it's presenteddifferently, but in the Two
Towers, sam has a speech that'svery, very similar.
The Two Towers Sam has a speechthat's very, very similar and
if you're watching on YouTubeyou can see.
(42:58):
But I have this likeillustrated version of the
speech that he gives in the TwoTowers that I got on Etsy and
it's like the cutest thing ever.
It's got like the differenttowers, it's got Sting, it's
just.
It's so cute because I love itso much, but it's interesting
that it is.
It's definitely abbreviated inthe movies, but it's still
incredibly inspirational andthis just I don't know it
demonstrates their love for eachother.
(43:19):
It's just this beautiful momentin such a dark place and I just
one of my favorites, honestlyone of my favorite things from
from the Lord of the Rings booksso far that that we've
encountered.
Jessica (43:33):
Yeah, it was.
Uh, it was probably one of theuh most tender moments in my
read.
Yeah, it's right out there.
Kritter (43:43):
I know I love it.
I want to hear more about Sam.
It kills me every time.
Um, so, okay, we can move on.
Uh, let us know in the commentsor on the Discord if you
appreciated it as much as we did, because, dang, I love it.
(44:03):
So whenever they're hanging outthere, sam reiterates his
distrust of Gollum and predictsthat if they get to the border,
into Mordor oh, I kind of rhymedGollum won't just let them go
through without making some kindof trouble.
Now I know we give Sam griefabout his nastiness toward
Gollum, but what he's sayingrings a bit true, especially
given Gollum's casiness aboutwhether the path is guarded and
(44:27):
that green light that keepsshowing up in his eyes.
So are you sympathizing withSam anymore?
As we're approaching, this isall coming to a head,
essentially.
Jessica (44:37):
I mean I am, but I think that Frodo gets it.
So what I liked about thisinner exchange is that Frodo
says if he's false, he's false.
Frodo has never said you're offbase, that's not true.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
He's just said this is thelandscape, this is what we need
to do.
He's the means to an end.
(45:01):
And I had actually highlightedthis whole passage because I
thought that it was interestingto hear Frodo's take on Gollum's
perspective, because for allthat he defends him and looks
out for him and is gentler withhim than others, we don't really
hear a lot of insight into whatFrodo actually thinks is going
(45:26):
on behind the scenes for Gollum.
So he's like regarding Gollum,he says very likely he can't
guess himself.
And I don't think he's likeregarding Gollum, he says very
likely he can't guess himself.
And I don't think he's got justone plain scheme in his muddled
head.
I think he really is, in part,trying to save the precious from
the enemy as long as he can,for that would be the last
disaster for himself too, if theenemy got it and in the other
(45:48):
part, perhaps he's just bidinghis time and waiting on chance,
which has been my perspective,this whole get like I.
I think that he is very cleverand that he's just waiting to
see what kind of opportunityshakes loose.
But to frodo's point.
You know nobody, nobody.
Frodo and sam, frodo and gollum.
Neither of them want the ringin the enemy's hand yeah.
Kritter (46:13):
So the enemy of my enemy yeah, it's my friend, kind
of it's real things, yeah, yeah, okay.
So regardless of how nasty samthinks gollum is, we get another
side of him the next time wesee him.
So when he, frodo and Sam haveboth fallen asleep, frodo's head
(46:33):
cradled in Sam's lap in a verytender sort of a pose, gollum
looks at them and the gleamfades from his eyes, leaving
them old and gray.
He appears to be engaging insome interior debate, looking up
towards the past.
Then he reaches out and touchesFrodo's knee and for a fleeting
(46:54):
moment, could one of thesleepers have seen him?
They would have thought thatthey beheld an old, weary hobbit
, shrunken by the years that hadcarried him far beyond his time
, beyond friends and kin and thefields and streams of youth.
An old, starved, pitiable thing.
And then Sam wakes up andaccuses him of sneaking.
(47:17):
This fleeting moment passes andthe green light in Gollum's
eyes returns.
So do you think Smeagol almosttook over there?
I do.
Jessica (47:29):
Honestly I do.
I think that we don't get a lotof times where Frodo is doing a
charitable thing and we don't alot of times get Gollum's
perspective on that.
But I wouldn't assume thatmeans that Gollum isn't noticing
what's happening, and even inhis dialogue he talks about nice
master, although sometimes itis very sarcastic.
(47:51):
But he does talk about nicemaster versus the rude little
hobbit meaning sam.
So he does differentiatebetween the different types of
treatment that he's getting um,and I do.
I do believe that this was avery close moment where smiegel
almost broke through um and,unfortunately, sam's negativity.
Kritter (48:12):
You know, sam's snap judgment based on all that has
happened pushes him firmly backinto stinker land, into Gollum
land particularly um toughpassage for tolkien to write,
(48:37):
like it was kind of an emotionalthing for him just because it
was.
It was smiegel on the brinkright.
That's kind of what it felt,like he was at a crossroads and
I whether it was what sam saidor inevitable, it did feel very
much so like inevitable.
Jessica (48:57):
It did feel very much so like sam kind of ruined it,
which is so sad, but at the sametime he has every reason to
suspect gollum and has everyreason to want to protect frodo
from him yeah, facts true, it'sa tough, it's a tough situation.
Kritter (49:11):
um.
So, as they're headed up on thesingular path straight up the
mountain, frodo tries to releaseGollum from service, noting
that, with one way up and in,their bargain was pretty much
complete, but Gollum declinesand insists on continuing on,
and that's the end of thechapter.
Any final thoughts before wepick an MVP?
Jessica (49:34):
There were a couple.
I had pointed out that if he'sfalse, he's false.
But then there was also amoment where, when they were
talking about the fairy tales alittle further on from where we
read why even Gollum might begood in a tale.
(49:55):
Uh, and so again, being aGollum stan, I was like that's
very sweet.
Um and just the idea of how Samsaid I'd keep watch over you if
you lay near with my arm aroundyou, Just incredibly sweet.
And and the very end was Samsaying, yes, I called him a
(50:17):
sneak, yes, I said it.
I said I was sorry, but prettysoon I'm not going to be sorry
anymore.
Uh, you know so Sam's kind ofbeing a little hard, but in this
moment he owns it.
He said it, he did the thing,he tried to apologize for it.
It just wasn't enough, yeah.
Kritter (50:36):
Okay, was that it, that's it.
Okay, well, we've got atradition where we pick an MVP
from the chapters we've read foreach episode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode, jessica?
Who would you?
Jessica (50:55):
name as your MVP.
This episode I'm going to throwback to Faramir.
Okay, he ended strong.
He didn't disappoint me.
He ended in this section strong.
You know he's left the scene Ihave no reason to know whether
or not he'll come back or when.
And he really was a benefactorto them while he was with them.
(51:21):
He tried to help them withinformation, he tried to keep
them safe.
He, you know, was an ambassador, you know, for Gondor to them.
So I think I'm going to give itup for Faramir, really looking
out for them and, to your point,giving them that last little
respite of safety, a littlebastion, a little moment, a
(51:42):
little breath.
I think that that's important,given the stair climb that
happened afterwards.
Kritter (51:50):
Yeah for sure.
Okay, good choice.
So I'm going to tell you who Iconsidered first and then I'll
tell you who I'm picking.
So I legitimately consideredgaladriel because, um, the file
is really what clutched upwhenever that the king of the
ring, wraiths, was nearby, kindof sniffing, looking for the
(52:12):
ring, becauseraiths was nearby,kind of sniffing, looking for
the ring, because it was almostlike he could sense it and Frodo
overcame that urge that thering was pulling him on by using
the file that Galadriel was sowise in giving to him.
But I am going to pick Frodo asmy MVP this episode just because
(52:34):
he knew, or he had the I don'tknow wherewithal to use the
resources that were given to himin a very, very tough situation
.
Handed and logical andreasonable he was when it came
to gollum.
He played that negotiation withgollum as well as he could,
(52:58):
right, because he kept him alive, which is the, the ideal thing
in that situation.
Um, and even though he did havesome missteps, where he, you
know, tried to go across thebridge into kirith, uncle, that
wasn't his fault, you know.
He's under a lot of pressure.
So I think, given everythingthat he, he kind of earned it,
(53:22):
you know, and and it as part ofthe little the speech that we
read.
He was so sweet for calling samout and like making him feel
good about himself too, and andI just can't give it to Sam,
cause he's, he's just such anegative, nancy, aside from that
cute little moment, that it'sjust not him this time, even
though I love him to death,absolutely adore him, but he's
(53:45):
just.
He's so negative and and and heturned.
He might've been the reasonthat Smeagol turned Gollum Right
have been the reason thatSmeagol turned Gollum right.
Jessica (53:52):
So, yeah, that was heartbreaking to read.
Honestly, being somebody who isrooting for Gollum, yeah, even
though I realized what you knowa losing ticket, that is yeah, I
was like God, it really couldhave been so different.
Kritter (54:15):
It could have, but it's not.
So, yeah, it's Frodo, for forme, faramir, for you both,
strong, strong choices.
As always.
Let us know in the comments oron discord, um, or on social
media, who your mvp is for thisepisode, if it varies from us or
if it's the same, never forgetthat galadriel's an option.
If you want to go with myoriginal line of thinking, um,
and yeah, we just, we lovehearing from you all, uh and uh,
(54:37):
and yeah, if you have, if youhave your take, let us know what
it is okay so for next week.
That's it.
Read for next week book four,chapters nine through ten finish
the book.
Thank you so much for tuninginto episode seven of season
three of but are there dragonsbrought to you by your hosts,
Jessica Sadai and critter XD?
(54:57):
Don't forget to follow us at.
But are there dragons onYouTube, Instagram and Tik TOK
and butt dragons pod?
Just one T on X.
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as critter XD and
shelf indulgence.
That is it for today.
We are workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 3, so
let us know on social media howyou feel about this one.
(55:18):
Go, with the goodwill of allgood men and women, Bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.