June 18, 2024 • 46 mins
Join Kritter and Jessica as they finish The Two Towers. This week's episode covers Book 4 Chapters 9-10. Things finally come to blows for Sam and Smeagol, Shelob the Terrifying arrives, and everything rests on Samwise and his choices.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kritter (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Two Towers by JRR Tolkien,
with me as the resident Lord ofthe Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:25):
And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer.
Kritter (00:28):
In this, our final regular season episode of season
three, we're going to discussbook four, chapters nine through
10 of the Two Towers Before wedive in.
Jessica, how are you feeling?
What's new with you?
Jessica (00:47):
I'm good.
Uh, I can't pretend that I'mnot just the least little bit
blown away by how fast june isgoing.
Uh, yeah, I am, to be frank,getting married at the end of
the month and it is really hardto think about anything else.
Um, that stuff is getting real.
Yeah, really, really real, butall very good, very well handled
(01:09):
.
I have lots of folks helping me, so it's all really good stuff,
but it's getting really real.
How about you?
Kritter (01:19):
yeah, a lot of stuff going on on my end too, not
getting married, but it is myanniversary this month and and
my husband's birthday this month, and just summer is busy it's.
So, you know, I'll be travelingfor certain fun wedding events,
and, yeah, june's going to bejust wild Start to finish,
(01:40):
basically Father's Day, all ofit, all of it.
So I'm excited that it'shappening, one of the best
months.
I think we talked about thatlast time, but, uh, whoa, and
then it's gonna be over, andthen we're gonna have wat con
wheel of time convention madefor fans by fans, and then, yeah
, it's a the summer's great.
(02:00):
I love the summer, prettyexcited about it.
It's going to be good stuff,yeah, in the meantime, though,
we finished the Two Towers, itfeels kind of crazy I don't know
.
It feels like it went kind offast, right it did.
Jessica (02:14):
I mean we took a nice little break between the two
books needed because we hadJordan Kahn and Life right, so
we needed a minute.
But Two Towers really kind ofblew right by and, yeah, it went
fast.
Kritter (02:33):
It was a good read.
So, speaking of the, Two Towers, book four, chapter nine she
Loaves Lair.
So just the title of thischapter got my hackles up.
Jessica (02:49):
Did it elicit anything in you?
The title, yes, so a lair.
Anything that has a lair, it'sgot to be no.
Bueno, right.
Like it can't be good.
This chapter very much remindedme like re-cemented in my mind
(03:12):
that Tolkien does a really,really good job with creepy
writing.
He does thrilling kind of scaryand intense writing quite well,
which is not something I reallygave any thought to before we
started this podcast, but hereally does kind of nail it, and
this chapter absolutelyreflects that for me yeah, yeah.
Kritter (03:33):
So like this jumps into my next point.
But we don't usually getliterary umami in terrible
places.
We kind of talked about that.
It doesn't have as much of aring to it, but sam frodo and
Gollum ventured into a dark ranktunnel and eventually quote
time and distance soon passedout of their reckoning.
To me that was just like ooh,okay, like that's dark but also
(03:59):
really cool to read.
Did anything from thisunderground hike stand out to
you like language wise or justthe?
Jessica (04:06):
environment.
Yeah, there were a couple thatI had, so I had, uh, and these
are just snippets, so bear withme not since the lightless
passages of moria had proto orsam known such darkness, a sense
of lurking malice, come on thestench and the peril.
They had not gone more than afew yards when from behind them
(04:30):
came a sound, startling andhorrible, in the heavy padded
silence a gurgling, bubblingnoise and a long, venomous hiss.
They wheeled round but nothingcould be seen.
Still as stones they stoodstaring, waiting for they did
not know what I like.
My hair is standing up on theback of my neck.
(04:51):
Just reading it I'm like thatwas so well done yeah, it's
creepy, yeah, creepy.
Kritter (04:58):
Um.
So at one point during thisbefore we got to the spider,
obviously uh, frodo and samended up holding hands as they
proceeded.
I don't know if you caught that.
That's a sweet little image inan otherwise horrific place,
let's see.
So the hobbits reached a forkin the tunnel and then this is
kind of the point that they loseGollum.
(05:19):
Gollum, nowhere to be seen orheard, and Sam just assumes this
is where he intended to abandonthem all along.
He has the sense that somethingother than Gollum is watching
them, you know, out in the dark,and I was wondering if you ever
experienced this feeling theunseen eyes in the dark.
Jessica (05:39):
I've been far enough in the woods in like Vermont,
andont and and northern newhampshire, where sometimes the
darkness really is looking backat you yeah, no, truly I have
actually I've um.
Kritter (05:56):
So I grew up kind of a redneck I don't always talk
about this, but like a redneckrural, you know areas of
missouri and my family you knowI grew up hunting um, and my
family you know I grew uphunting and so one time
sometimes when you're hunting,you get up really really early
in the morning, right beforedawn, so that you can get to the
place that you're intending tohunt before the light, you know.
(06:17):
And then things start to move.
Well, I was like I don't know,in high school maybe, and I was
walking up this hill to thestand, this deer stand, and it
was a big hill in the woods,right by myself, and I feel like
I hear something and I've got aheadlight on right, but you're
not supposed to like flash itaround all over the place
(06:38):
because then you'll scare stuff.
So I'm like looking down infront of me with my headlight
and I hear something and like,instinctively I look up with my
headlamp and there are eyes.
There are just eyes likelooking straight at me and you
know it's not like squirrel eyes, they're not small, they're big
eyes and I'm just like, okay,in my mind it's definitely a
(07:01):
mountain lion, not in my, in myheart it was a mountain lion.
In my mind I was like it'sprobably a deer, so I should
just stand here until it decidesto leave or it gets light
enough that I could like try toget it, I guess.
Um, but I like couldn't standit because I was just so freaked
out that I thought it wassomething other than the deer
that I I ended up moving andscaring it.
(07:21):
But yeah, unseen eyes in thedark are real.
Seen eyes in the dark, evenkind of worse.
Jessica (07:27):
Yeah, no, so all of my stories are in fact camp stories
.
So I'm not somebody that wentout and went into the stand, but
I you know some of the folkswho were holding down the fort
at camp waiting for folks tocome back.
That was me.
Yeah, waiting for folks to comeback.
That was me, and not as manybig cats around here although we
(07:50):
do have wild cats in NewEngland we don't have many, but
but it's always a possibility.
They exist, yeah, and sotypically it's bear Bear was
more of a concern and, again,not as big as some folks might
imagine, but it doesn't have tobe a kodiak to mess you up yeah,
you know like at the very least300 pound black bear can really
(08:13):
do you some harm so yeah, yeahso, anyways, that was a great
tangent, uh eyes in the dark.
Kritter (08:20):
Yes, eyes in the dark are a real thing yeah, yeah, and
just having that sense, youknow, even if you don't see them
, but you can feel them, that'sit's.
It's real, I can.
It's menacing, it is truly realand it is menacing.
Um, okay, so, as you mentioned,it wasn't just eyes, noises,
gurgle, hiss.
(08:40):
Sam, interestingly, immediatelythinks back to tom bombadil,
wishing he was there, which Ithought was fun, interesting,
you know, like curious, becausethey haven't really mentioned
him in so long.
Um, he then thinks of galadrieland the star glass meant to be
a light to frodo in dark places.
What would you have beenthinking about if you were him?
(09:04):
Cause I feel like these werevery like practical thoughts for
him to be having.
Jessica (09:08):
I don't know.
I don't know that I would be.
I don't know that I'd betroubleshooting right Like I
don't know that I'd be, althoughthere is something to be said
for gold star, for workingthrough your inventory mentally
going what do I got on me that Ican use?
I loved the free associationbubble association that got him
from Tom to Galadriel.
(09:29):
I thought that that was superawesome.
I don't think I would be doingthat.
I think I would be like gosh.
I really I don't want to die.
Kritter (09:38):
What's that?
Jessica (09:38):
noise, yeah, so I don't think I.
I'm not somebody you want in apinch.
You know, if we're in physicaldanger, I'm not your girl, I
will definitely tend to you whenyou get back to camp fair
enough.
Kritter (09:55):
I don't know that you're giving yourself enough
credit, but you know what weshould know ourselves, and so,
yeah, I trust you.
I like to think that I would begood in a pinch, but I've never
been confronted with a giantspider before, only a probably
deer in the dark, right?
So yeah, anyways.
Okay.
So, reminded of Galadriel'sfile, frodo brings it out and
(10:19):
shouts something in Elvish,though it's more like someone
else was shouting it through him, which I thought was cool.
The light shone like a silverflame and she lobe is not
deterred.
She had apparently heard thosewords long ago and hadn't heeded
them then.
So there's all this about thefile a yarn dale coming down
from the sunset paths with asilmaril on his brow and she
(10:42):
lobe being an ancient evil whichcomes up again a little later
in the chapter.
Any standout moments for youamidst all this, like lore
dumping.
Jessica (10:51):
I think the biggest takeaway is that Shelob is, you
know, a descendant of true eviland just happens to also be
spider-shaped, and that she isgenuinely old, like she's been
in the area longer than Sauron.
Uh so that was completely newinformation to me.
(11:14):
Um, so that was really uh.
That was probably my biggesttakeaway from this chapter, but
I thought that the next bit wasthe best sweetest hero
description that I've ever read.
So uh, it says uh.
Then, holding the star aloftand the bright sword advanced,
(11:36):
frodo hobbit of the shire walkedsteadily down to meet the eyes
and I was just like that's hero,love, right there yeah, yeah, I
was, uh, so initially they ran,but then frodo was like no man,
we're gonna turn around.
Kritter (11:55):
Um, were you surprised that this actually caused she
love to initially withdraw?
Jessica (11:59):
yes, I was.
I was also surprised about, youknow, the elvish speak coming
out of Frodo.
I know that he's Elf friend, Iknow that he's learned some
Elvish, but the language seemssignificant, especially since
the narrator talks about youknow, this language Shelob had
heard before and it didn't stopher then.
So it definitely feels like acallback.
(12:23):
It's just unfortunately acallback to a story I don't
really know, right, um, yeah, uh, and I did think that it was
incredible to.
It was so much more than how itwas depicted in the movie based
on my remembering.
Yeah, um, because obviously Ihaven't re-watched this part yet
(12:45):
Cause this part is not in is inreturn of the King as opposed
to to town.
Kritter (12:49):
Yeah, which is something that very much
surprised me the first time Isaw the movie.
So I was expecting it and itdid not happen and I was like,
uh, well, it's just anotherthing where there's so much more
lore.
Jessica (13:04):
It doesn't seem like a lot, but it really does amplify
the story and make it, you know,have a more rich background,
yeah, and make the fact thatthey are battling her with
essentially light so much moreimpactful.
Kritter (13:21):
Yeah, ok, so speaking of the lore, because you
mentioned stories that youhadn't heard of before or
whatever, so not having fullcontext, I did want to point out
, for those who may have alittle more context, that they
did say that Shelob wasUngoliant's offspring, which
who's that Must have beensomebody pretty special.
(13:42):
And then also they did mentionthat she had offspring all over
the place, including in Mirkwood.
Whoa, oh see, I was like whatis this face You're remembering?
the offspring in Mirkwood.
Yes, so that is something thatwe were familiar with because we
were at the Hobbit not long agoand I thought it was one little
(14:04):
call back to that, and now weknow why they were so terrible
and horrible I thought that shewas just like a big scary spider
from murkwood and I don't knowthat when I watched the movies
that I got that she was.
You know, she's more based onthis reading she's more than
just a super huge, scary spideryeah, yeah, otherwise known as
(14:27):
or as, saran considers her hiscat, his blood-sucking cat.
Can you imagine, like she wasaround before him, the indignity
of being referred to that wayas unbelievable?
Yeah, as a pet.
Yeah, also the fact that, likethey kind of talked about her
motivations and essentially herentire motivation is death, to
(14:48):
all you know she's not likeSauron's pet he could die too.
For all she cares, she wantseveryone to die and for her to
grow larger than life.
Basically, like evil, like justpure evil.
It was kind of a wilddescription.
I thought, yeah, so okay, wehad Frodo turning around.
Like just pure evil.
It was kind of a wilddescription.
I thought, yeah, so okay, wehad Frodo turning around, taking
(15:09):
her on.
She retreated somehow, which wassurprising, and Sam was like
super stoked about this,praising Frodo for acts worthy
of a song.
And then he suggested that theyget out of there.
Right, and they try to, but atthe very last moment, at the
exit of the tunnel, there arecobwebs blocking their way that
(15:30):
can't be cut by just any blade.
Sam's initial reaction,thinking cobwebs would be no big
deal was obviously premature,which I thought was so funny.
He's like cobwebs, what likeyou're gonna stop us with
cobwebs.
And then his sword didn't work.
Um, did you see this partcoming, this little cobweb?
What like you're gonna stop uswith cobwebs?
And then his sword didn't work.
Um, did you see this partcoming, this little cobweb trap?
Jessica (15:48):
yeah, I mean, the reading made it really clear
that she is not just a regularspider.
So yeah, I kind of did see itcoming.
But never fear, there's anopportunity for some more lore
and apparently there's athrowback to another story, I
don't know where.
Somebody else did amazing deedsand cut crazy webs in the past
(16:11):
with sting with sting, withsting.
Kritter (16:14):
I I, when this happened I felt kind of bad for sam.
It was just like really protojust gets all the cool stuff,
like he has so much cool stuff,and Sam just has some random
sword.
Anyways, that will be remediedhere later.
So once escaped, frodo and Samran with Sam ahead, still
(16:36):
holding the file, because Ithink Frodo had dropped it at
some point, and Frodo behind.
Unfortunately, shelob had manyexits from her lair and she got
in between them and set uponFrodo.
Sam tried to warn Frodo, butthat was the moment that Gollum
returned.
So, madam Gollum fan, how arewe feeling about him now?
Jessica (17:02):
This was really hard because this comes immediately
on the heels of how closeSmeagol was to redemption and
how Sam directly Not on purpose,but did directly ruin that.
But also there's a little bitof satisfaction for me, even as
(17:25):
a Gollum fan, to see themactually have it out, because
it's been building for a reallylong time and Gollum has been
saying terrible things about Sam, just like Sam has been saying
terrible things about Gollum,and so it's a little bit of a
relief for them to finally cometo blows and have it out.
Kritter (17:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a good perspective, I
think I tend to agree.
So, yeah, sam's fury againstGollum finally came to a head
and he escaped from Gollum'sgrasp and laid several solid
blows on him, and Gollum decidednot to engage any further and
he fled.
So for the end of the chapterwe find out that Gollum's plan
(18:14):
had succeeded, though, when itcame to Frodo.
Thoughts before we move on.
Jessica (18:21):
Just how horrible that must have been for Sam.
Yeah, yeah, I would say thatfor this read it was Sam on my
mind A lot.
Kritter (18:32):
Yeah, sam is not having a good time, but it must have
felt good to lay this back downon the column a little bit and
get the better of him.
Jessica (18:42):
I kind of loved it and Sam acquitted himself very
respectively, you know, likehe's a very strong stout fighter
and has a lot of pent-upaggression against Gollum from
their travels.
Kritter (18:56):
He sure does.
He sure does Gosh, it was justlike I.
Okay, so you know I read this,but I read it a long, long, long
time ago and and this wholesequence, these two chapters,
had me just having majorflashbacks because it was just
like you know, she comes out andI know, I know what happens,
(19:17):
right, but not exactly the orderof events.
So then when gollum showed upagain, I was like, oh my god, I
had kind of forgotten.
This was like that rent, like I, you know, because I don't love
it quite as much as you do, andso I was just like I was on
team sam there, like real, realhard, um.
So it was so satisfying for himto just like do the I don't
(19:40):
know, like he, he, he waschanneling his Rudy, you know
moments there, and it was justso so good to see.
Um, I just loved it.
But then of course it's, uh,these.
This last chapter isdevastating.
Um, so let's move to it.
Before chapter 10, the choicesof master Sam wise.
Jessica (19:58):
Let's just talk about what a stellar chapter title
that is.
So, again, I don't look ahead,I just okay, this is what we're
reading.
So when I turned the page, asit were, and I saw this for a
chapter title, knowing that it'sthe last chapter in the book, I
was like come on, that title isfire.
(20:19):
That's all Just like reallygreat choice tolkien.
Kritter (20:24):
I am not sure anybody else has called sam master
samwise, aside from faramir,unless I'm misremembering.
Jessica (20:33):
I know faramir did, but I think he was the only one,
and so it was kind of atelegraph moment too.
Kritter (20:39):
I guess I just kind of nothing to the title.
It's a good, good title, but Iwasn't like, ooh, let's read
into this right.
Like in the context of thistitle or in this chapter he kind
of does become Master Samwiseand like officially, at least
for a while.
So let's talk about it a while.
(21:02):
Um, so, let's talk about it.
So sheelob has frodo wrapped upand begins to carry him away,
sam taking frodo's discardedblade in his left hand.
So I'm picturing dual wieldingsamwise.
Gamgee charges, and quote noonslaught more fierce has was
ever seen in the savage world ofbeasts, where some desperate
small creature armed with littleteeth alone will spring upon a
(21:25):
tower of horn and hide thatstands above its fallen mate.
Did this imagery, this language, did it do anything for you?
Jessica (21:35):
Yeah, it was incredible .
It also reminded me thatthey're halflings, right.
They're small and so Shelob isbig, no matter what.
And think about how much biggershe would be if we were half
the size, you know, if we wereonly three, three and a half
feet tall.
Just how incredibly humongousshe must seem to them.
Kritter (21:55):
Yeah, yeah, I know the language was like that flowery.
It was flowery, I loved it, andI know that mate can also mean
multiple things.
But I don't know like standingover his fallen mate.
I was like huh ConfirmationObviously not, but in my mind
(22:16):
kind of it was romantic.
Jessica (22:19):
It was romantic In my mind.
I feel like I don't know.
I don't know anything aboutTolkien.
I certainly didn't know him asa person, but he, by all
accounts, seems to be a masterof language and I feel I can't
help but feel that my headcanon,coming out of this, is going to
(22:41):
be that he left room forinterpretation.
Yeah, I agree, that'sultimately where I am.
I think that I think that thatsuits me, that it's OK, that
it's OK that mate means morethan one thing.
It's OK for one man to tellanother man that I love you.
It's okay to hold hands whenyou are in the scariest, darkest
(23:05):
moments of your life, Like allof those things are okay
regardless of what spectrum yourrelationship is on it's still
just like.
Kritter (23:22):
I feel like it's beautiful.
Yeah, it's a beautifulrelationship, no matter what
it's just, I always love it whenit leans even more up for
interpretation.
You know, it's just like whenit gets extra tender is when I'm
like, oh man, I know that mightnot have been your intent, but
boy, did you leave it open forinterpretation.
Um, okay, so anyway, sam got aclaw, then one of her eyes, and
(23:45):
he even got underneath her andtried to gash her underbelly,
but here she was distinguishedfrom dragons.
Okay, let's just note that theword dragon was in this book.
Yes, there were dragons.
Jessica (23:59):
At some point there were dragons.
Kritter (24:01):
It might have already shown up, but I don't remember.
But there were dragons hereright now, so there was no soft
underbelly for her.
And quote these hideous foldscould not be pierced by any
strength of men or elf or dwarf.
Instead, she ended up beingpierced by her own strength.
She descended upon sam as heheld, staying upright with both
(24:24):
hands.
Were you surprised by all theblows that sam managed to land
on his own?
And then how it ended uphappening?
Happening with she lobe?
Jessica (24:33):
landing by the blow herself.
Yeah, surprising, yes, um, Iknew that he would be fierce in
his defense and that theadrenaline would be high, but I
just I thought that it wasincredibly well done that he did
impact Leanne so many more hitsthan I thought he would get,
even with that, and that,ultimately, her own momentum was
(24:57):
her undoing was just perfectmomentum was her undoing was
just perfect.
Kritter (25:04):
yeah, I still have to give credit to sam, though,
because, like he had both handson the sword but he could have
ultimately been crushed, granted, the sword helped, I'm sure,
like how the the magic, thesword, I'll drive him.
Jessica (25:12):
Like in my mind, she piled, piled, drove him into the
ground yeah and he survivedyeah.
Yeah, that's wild.
Kritter (25:19):
He kept the sword upright enough that it went into
her.
Good job, sam, good job Stingand Shelob.
You've got to use your mind alittle more in your next fight.
Let me just say You've beenrotting up on the hilltops a
little too long.
I need to stop trash-talking anancient evil being I need to
(25:40):
work on.
Shelobbe, though, is not downand out yet.
As sam recovers from a bit of adaze, she eyes him angrily and
he once again remembersgladriel's file, crying out in a
language he doesn't know,holding a light the file, and as
if his indomitable spirit setits potency in motion.
(26:04):
It glowed like it never hadbefore, a terror out of heaven
burning.
She lobed till, at last, sheretreated thoughts just
incredible.
Jessica (26:15):
You know the phial.
The phial absolutely figuresmuch more heavily into this than
I got again from the movie.
I just thought that the brightlight scared her away like a big
scary spider.
Nah it burned her.
This is so much more than that,and the quote that you just
read, the indomitable spirit.
(26:36):
I loved that I loved the ideathat he's so fiery and stout and
steadfast that it somehowamplified the action of the file
.
Kritter (26:48):
I really like that.
Frodo held a loft, the thing inthe caves, and she was like
please.
And then eventually she waslike okay, I guess I'll retreat
a little bit, but I'm comingback.
Sam holds it aloft and it glowslike it's never glowed before
(27:13):
it burns her.
So to me I'm just like oh Sam,he's got something a little
extra, he's got something goingfor him.
I don't know, it's a proudmoment for absolutely for sam
stands, I think, especiallyafter that last series of
chapters where he kind ofdisappointed us by, you know
being testy with gollum.
Jessica (27:34):
Yeah, again, I feel like frodo's.
Frodo is struggling under onekind of weight and Sam was just
struggling under a differentkind of weight.
That's really how I'm walkingaway from this and that this is.
You know, sam in so many waysrepresents light and hope, and
(27:58):
for that to be acted on soclearly with the file was very
gratifying yeah, agreed, it was.
Kritter (28:06):
I love this part.
It was great.
Um, so are you curious?
I looked up the translation but, like part of me is wondering,
is this, is this his, his?
The thing he cried out inelvish meant to be understood,
because Sam didn't understand it.
You know what I mean?
I'm not sure.
Jessica (28:26):
So I didn't Google it because, as I've said, I don't
Google things because spoilersbeware.
Kritter (28:33):
So I didn't look it up.
Jessica (28:34):
I was insanely curious.
But at each instance over thislast part of the read, when
there is language, it soundslike it's throwing back to a
previous event tied to the fileor the light of Arendelle,
however you choose to perceiveit, whether it's the file itself
or the light itself.
Okay, so I was insanely curious.
(28:57):
So if you want to share it, I'dlove to know.
But yeah, I am Spoilers.
Kritter (29:01):
I saved it, I I translate, translated, I googled
it.
I googled the translation.
Um, because I was curious andI've, you know, read the
silmarillion and I was like I'mnot gonna get spoiled on
anything, whatever it is, um,but I don't think it's really
spoilery, because if I don'texplain it to you, then spoilery
, because if I don't explain itto you then it's not going to do
(29:22):
anything.
But okay, so this is what itmeans, what Sam said in Elvish
oh, elbereth Starkindler, fromheaven, gazing afar to thee, I
cry now in the shadow of death.
Oh, look towards me, ever white.
So it's like a plea to me, it'sgiving crying out to god in a
(29:47):
moment of desperation to likecast his favor on you or in this
case cast her favor on you.
Um, so, yeah, it's very, it'sgiving like the hail mary sort
of in in some ways.
Um, so I don't know if it was acall back to something that
happened in the past or if hewas just calling to an ethereal
(30:07):
being.
Um, but yeah, very.
So that's what it meant.
Pretty neat, um.
So let's see, we got yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Shelob leaves, shelob isgone and Sam goes to see Frodo
and Frodo is down.
Sam thinks he's dead and Samlaments Frodo's passing for
(30:32):
quite some time but ultimatelyremembers his task.
But, finishing the journey withthe ring, he then decided to
take Sting and the file but, asI understand it, leave the
Mithril coat and his own swordwith Frodo.
Were you surprised?
Jessica (30:54):
that he kind of looted Frodo to upgrade his gear?
Uh, yes, yes, also yeah.
So I do want to go back justhalf a tick and him over Frodo's
body saying don't leave me herealone, don't go where I can't
follow Tear jerker, you knowdefinitely tear jerking material
, even though I know you know,still heartbreaking.
(31:20):
And so what I wrote about thisparticular section is, I feel,
like Tolkien do you ever do mathwhere you have to show your
work?
Kritter (31:30):
You have to do the long division.
Jessica (31:33):
This is what this felt like to me and I actually,
rather than feeling like it wascondescending, which some people
might be like, oh, you don'thave to explain it to me, I like
it explained to me.
So I liked that here it feltlike Tolkien was showing his
work.
Sam was, you know, bereft,grieving by what he feels is,
you know, the loss of his mate,um, and has to make a decision.
(31:58):
What do I do?
And you know, tolkien took thetime to really explain Samwise's
thought process and decisionpoints along this line and I
really like that becauseultimately, he changes his mind,
and that's all rooted in thefact that we got to see how he
(32:19):
got there and, ultimately, whenhe changes his mind, we see how
he got there and ultimately,when he changes his mind, we see
how he got there too.
Kritter (32:26):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't mention this, but at one point
he literally like seems toconsider like the possibility
that you know, there's sheercliffs just over there.
Wouldn't have to mourn then, andI was just like whoa, yeah, I
don't remember that at all um,obviously obviously thrilled
that he moved on from that lineof thinking very quickly but at
(32:47):
the same time, the fact that hehad to go there to get
eventually to the no, I need tocontinue on.
I'm the last one.
I said I would do this, I havea task, and yeah, it was.
I agree that witnessing histhoughts, his whole process, was
beneficial in this case.
Jessica (33:07):
And he even says in it you know, I have a choice to
make and guarantee you I'll doit wrong.
And then ultimately he changeshis mind.
So self-fulfilling prophecy, alittle bit, but a little bit all
that more endearing, becauseyou know it's Samwise.
Kritter (33:26):
Yeah, little bit, but a little bit all that more
endearing because you know it'ssamwise.
Yeah, so, given the choice hesets out.
But before he gets completelyout of sight of she loves lair,
he hears orcs all around andwithout much thought, puts the
ring on to avoid getting spotted, just like boop.
I've got this ring, nohesitation.
Yeah, I feel like it took Frodoa very long time.
Jessica (33:47):
And he's watched what this has done to Frodo.
And is keenly aware of whatit's done to Gollum, but like
oop, just going to pop that onthere.
Kritter (33:56):
I just like to believe that he truly was surrounded and
that was the only way ofavoiding detection.
That's what I'm choosing tobelieve.
It just seemed really fast.
It was so fast, but anyways,the orcs eventually spot Frodo
and Sam just immediately givesup on his quest, pursues them
(34:19):
back into Shelob's Tunnels,where I guess there's a
passageway back up to theirtower, and we get to overhear
quite a bit of orc conversationhere.
Did anything stand out to you?
Jessica (34:31):
Well, one thing before we switch to the orcs, because
I'm glad you asked about them.
One thing the ring did notconfer was courage, and I love
that he spelled that out.
Yeah, you know Him deciding tofollow the orcs.
I completely understood in themoment.
I thought it was reallyinteresting too.
(34:52):
I feel as though this was likean everyman pass at orcs, that
these are orcs from differentfactions, like we saw previously
.
We're following differentleaders and potentially have
different orders or prioritiesum and in very relatable ways,
go, yeah, no, we'd rather gowhere the loot's a little bit
(35:15):
better and the scenery is alittle bit nicer and you know,
just kind of um humanizing thema little bit because in their
own way they are reluctantsoldiers.
You know what I mean.
In their own way, like manyenlisted individuals, are just
trying to finish out their time.
Kritter (35:38):
Yeah, and they don't like their management.
They find the Nazgul creepylike their management.
Jessica (35:46):
They find the nazgul creepy.
Kritter (35:46):
I'd like to have a little bit of a better gig where
we don't have to deal with shelobe and and I guess the reason
that these patrols were outbecause they're like two
separate sets of orcs, I guesspatrolling um was that they had
been spotted on the stairs.
I feel like that was notcommunicated.
No, in the.
Jessica (36:02):
Watchers, the watchers, capital W, you know, and that
there is Intel being passed backand forth.
So a message is shared, and Iof course didn't write that down
, but you know essentially thatyou know something's been
spotted, and that's when thehigh Nazgul is mentioned, and
(36:25):
that kind of took me off guard.
So the idea that one of theNazgul is above the others, a
concept I had never considered.
Okay, okay, I assume it's thedude that got sent out with the
army.
Kritter (36:43):
You know he's really super important.
Yeah, okay, I was going to saythey kind of alluded to that.
Jessica (36:50):
It wasn't explicit.
It says Hi Nazgul and it'scapitalized.
Kritter (36:55):
I was like oh, alright, hi Nazgul trademark TM.
And then also the orcs were alittle smarter than I expected.
At least one of them.
They deduced that frodo was notthe only one there and another
had escaped, given like thetraces of blood or like goo or
whatever she lobe left behindthe fact that some of the bonds
(37:16):
have been cut on frodo, um, allof that.
So they kind of like figured itout.
Just the use of criticalthinking yeah didn't expect yeah
it's like, obviously he's notthe only one.
And then the fact that theydecided that the person, the
other person, was the mainwarrior, the large, probably an
elf warrior and that frodo waslike the sidekick so he's
(37:38):
probably not worth much.
I thought that was so funny, andsam did too and said he like
smirked or whatever like aboutit.
Um, that was, that was alsopretty satisfying.
So yeah, the orc convo, I wasnot mad about it.
I thought it was kind of afunny little glimpse into a
different perspective.
Um, so then they were talkingabout how frodo had to be taken
(37:59):
to lugberts, stripped of hispossessions.
So was it just me or did youalso think that lugberts was a
person?
Jessica (38:11):
I.
I wasn't sure if lugberts was aperson or a region, so I
remember lugberts being thethird faction when I was, when
we first had the conversation inwhichever part of the book
where I was like, oh, we havethree different factions that
we're dealing with.
And I wasn't sure if Lugbertswas a region or their leader.
Kritter (38:34):
Okay, See, when I was hearing this conversation, I
thought this is their orc leader.
I guess, Turns out, no, lugbertsis the tower, like Sauron's
tower, it is the.
It's in like the black speechor whatever it's in the black
speech for baradur, baradur,like the, the big main tower.
(38:54):
Um, because, yeah, I looked itup because I was just like I
read the book and listened.
So it read, slash, listened,and so while I was listening I
was was just like who isLugberts?
Why do I not know what Lugbertsis?
I don't understand this.
So when I was working on myoutline, I had to look it up
just to make sure.
And it is the tower.
Jessica (39:12):
So we had Saruman's orcs and we had orcs from the
Moria region, and then we hadthe Lugberts orcs, who were
loyal to Sauron S region, andthen we had the Lugbers orcs,
who were loyal to Sauron.
Sauron's orcs.
Kritter (39:26):
From the tower.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sensenow that I know.
So, to his surprise, Samoverhears that Frodo is alive
and the orcs take him furtherinto their tower behind a barred
door.
And to end the chapter, end thebook, we read Frodo was alive
(39:47):
but taken by the enemy.
Thoughts before we pick an MVP.
Jessica (39:53):
That was heartbreaking, awesome Cliffhanger to end the
chapter on yeah, to end the book.
The book, yes, the book.
I sat there with my Kindle andwent gotta be kidding me, uh-huh
, yeah.
So just, it was palpable for methe frustration of knowing that
(40:17):
, in the same instance that youfind out, essentially, that
Frodo is still alive, that he'son this other side of a wall
slash door, situation that youcannot get through.
And just the frustration I felton Samwise's behalf was crazy.
Kritter (40:33):
Imagine, like 10-year-old Critter reading this
for the very first timepre-movies and at first I think
Frodo's literally dead.
You know he's dead.
Sam thinks he's dead.
Sam thinks he's dead.
Sam takes his stuff.
Sam's gone.
Frodo's out of the picture.
You know, another member of thefellowship gone and that was
(40:56):
insane to like witness.
You know to read and I'm justdevastated.
And then I get this major highnot dead, and within a page or
something not dead but taken.
It's going to be a tall orderto get him out of this tower
filled with orcs from the top ofthe tower which is where they
(41:18):
said they were taking himCompletely unattainable.
For one small hobbit with,granted, a pretty nice sword
thanks to, thanks to his lootingabilities, um, and a file like.
Oh, I remember, like vividlyremember, the feeling because I
would um, I got these initiallyfrom the library so like having
(41:39):
to like wait until we took atrip to the library to return
the two towers and get thereturn of the king, and I am
dying, truly heartbroken.
What is going to happen next?
So, yeah, I think that's a signof a pretty good ending.
Jessica (41:56):
I wouldn't let myself read so.
Above and beyond that, I wasplanning on going to see the
movies.
It was such a good cliffhangerfor book two that I was like I
can't.
If I start to read now, in prepfor our next recording, it will
color our debris, so I can't doit.
(42:17):
So I, as of yet, have notstarted return of the King,
because I wanted to get throughour last episode and our wrap
party before I lost the spacethat I'm in on it.
Kritter (42:31):
Okay, that's good of you.
That is well done, well done,bravo, thank you.
You've truly dedicated to thecause.
Jessica (42:39):
I am.
Kritter (42:40):
Okay, any more thoughts for you to the MVP thing.
Okay so we've, before we do theMVP thing.
Okay, so we've got a traditionwhere we pick an MVP from the
chapters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (42:58):
Well, I know this is going to be a complete and utter
shock, but I pick SamwiseGamgee.
I completely agree.
Know this is going to be acomplete and utter shock, but I
picked sam wise gamgee Icompletely agree.
Kritter (43:08):
Sorry spoilers, he's mine too, but why is he yours?
Jessica (43:12):
uh, because this read he just embodied everything
everything about loyalty,everything about why it was a
good thing that he went withFrodo.
Sam is not perfect, frodo isnot perfect, none of the
characters are perfect.
(43:32):
And it has been hard with Samlies and and being so
contentious with Gollum, but herises right, he shows up, he has
the loyalty.
He's not perfect, but he ishimself and he is there out of
pure love and clearly that'swhat was needed.
Kritter (43:56):
Yeah, amen, he's just God to your character.
Honestly, the file knew itglowing brighter than it had
ever glowed.
Uh, he, you know, I don't know.
Uh, what is the?
What is the word?
The um, the fighting style.
You know where you're in a ringand you can kick and punch cage
(44:18):
man mma.
He, like mma, fought gollum offof himself with you know, for
the first time really seeing himdo something like that Physical
, I don't know, maybe not theexact first time, but like he
really came to play againstGollum, against Shelob.
He was the one that rememberedthe file in the first place.
(44:38):
So even though Frodo did havehis nice little moment with the
file wouldn't have happenedwithout Sam, and so it was just
Sam.
Jessica (44:46):
Just I love him so much and they wouldn't actually both
be alive still at the close ofthis book, I feel like True.
Kritter (44:57):
Yeah, shelob would have taken Frodo, the orcs never
would have found him and shewould have killed him Like yeah,
completely true.
Um, so insane.
You know he really is that bigwarrior that the orcs think he
is, but it's in his heart justin a compact yeah, exactly, I
love him so much.
(45:18):
Mvp samwise for sure, yeah.
Jessica (45:22):
Okay, well, I think that is it for us for today.
We are planning our wrap partystream and we're going to have
that here on the but are theredragons?
Youtube channel.
We plan on having that Tuesday,june 25th, at 8 PM central time
.
On behalf of both of us, I'dlike to say thank you so much
(45:45):
for tuning in to Episode 8 ofSeason 3 of but Are there
Dragons, brought to you by yourhost, by Jessica Sedai and
CritterXD.
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod, just one T on X.
You can also find your host onsocial media as critter XD and
(46:08):
shelf indulgence.
That's it for us today.
We would like to continueworkshopping new catchphrases
for season three, so let us know, on social media or discord,
how you feel about this one.
Farewell, my hobbits.
May we meet again in my house.
Thanks, bye, bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Two Towers by JRR Tolkien,
with me as the resident Lord ofthe Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:25):
And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer.
Kritter (00:28):
In this, our final regular season episode of season
three, we're going to discussbook four, chapters nine through
10 of the Two Towers Before wedive in.
Jessica, how are you feeling?
What's new with you?
Jessica (00:47):
I'm good.
Uh, I can't pretend that I'mnot just the least little bit
blown away by how fast june isgoing.
Uh, yeah, I am, to be frank,getting married at the end of
the month and it is really hardto think about anything else.
Um, that stuff is getting real.
Yeah, really, really real, butall very good, very well handled
(01:09):
.
I have lots of folks helping me, so it's all really good stuff,
but it's getting really real.
How about you?
Kritter (01:19):
yeah, a lot of stuff going on on my end too, not
getting married, but it is myanniversary this month and and
my husband's birthday this month, and just summer is busy it's.
So, you know, I'll be travelingfor certain fun wedding events,
and, yeah, june's going to bejust wild Start to finish,
(01:40):
basically Father's Day, all ofit, all of it.
So I'm excited that it'shappening, one of the best
months.
I think we talked about thatlast time, but, uh, whoa, and
then it's gonna be over, andthen we're gonna have wat con
wheel of time convention madefor fans by fans, and then, yeah
, it's a the summer's great.
(02:00):
I love the summer, prettyexcited about it.
It's going to be good stuff,yeah, in the meantime, though,
we finished the Two Towers, itfeels kind of crazy I don't know
.
It feels like it went kind offast, right it did.
Jessica (02:14):
I mean we took a nice little break between the two
books needed because we hadJordan Kahn and Life right, so
we needed a minute.
But Two Towers really kind ofblew right by and, yeah, it went
fast.
Kritter (02:33):
It was a good read.
So, speaking of the, Two Towers, book four, chapter nine she
Loaves Lair.
So just the title of thischapter got my hackles up.
Jessica (02:49):
Did it elicit anything in you?
The title, yes, so a lair.
Anything that has a lair, it'sgot to be no.
Bueno, right.
Like it can't be good.
This chapter very much remindedme like re-cemented in my mind
(03:12):
that Tolkien does a really,really good job with creepy
writing.
He does thrilling kind of scaryand intense writing quite well,
which is not something I reallygave any thought to before we
started this podcast, but hereally does kind of nail it, and
this chapter absolutelyreflects that for me yeah, yeah.
Kritter (03:33):
So like this jumps into my next point.
But we don't usually getliterary umami in terrible
places.
We kind of talked about that.
It doesn't have as much of aring to it, but sam frodo and
Gollum ventured into a dark ranktunnel and eventually quote
time and distance soon passedout of their reckoning.
To me that was just like ooh,okay, like that's dark but also
(03:59):
really cool to read.
Did anything from thisunderground hike stand out to
you like language wise or justthe?
Jessica (04:06):
environment.
Yeah, there were a couple thatI had, so I had, uh, and these
are just snippets, so bear withme not since the lightless
passages of moria had proto orsam known such darkness, a sense
of lurking malice, come on thestench and the peril.
They had not gone more than afew yards when from behind them
(04:30):
came a sound, startling andhorrible, in the heavy padded
silence a gurgling, bubblingnoise and a long, venomous hiss.
They wheeled round but nothingcould be seen.
Still as stones they stoodstaring, waiting for they did
not know what I like.
My hair is standing up on theback of my neck.
(04:51):
Just reading it I'm like thatwas so well done yeah, it's
creepy, yeah, creepy.
Kritter (04:58):
Um.
So at one point during thisbefore we got to the spider,
obviously uh, frodo and samended up holding hands as they
proceeded.
I don't know if you caught that.
That's a sweet little image inan otherwise horrific place,
let's see.
So the hobbits reached a forkin the tunnel and then this is
kind of the point that they loseGollum.
(05:19):
Gollum, nowhere to be seen orheard, and Sam just assumes this
is where he intended to abandonthem all along.
He has the sense that somethingother than Gollum is watching
them, you know, out in the dark,and I was wondering if you ever
experienced this feeling theunseen eyes in the dark.
Jessica (05:39):
I've been far enough in the woods in like Vermont,
andont and and northern newhampshire, where sometimes the
darkness really is looking backat you yeah, no, truly I have
actually I've um.
Kritter (05:56):
So I grew up kind of a redneck I don't always talk
about this, but like a redneckrural, you know areas of
missouri and my family you knowI grew up hunting um, and my
family you know I grew uphunting and so one time
sometimes when you're hunting,you get up really really early
in the morning, right beforedawn, so that you can get to the
place that you're intending tohunt before the light, you know.
(06:17):
And then things start to move.
Well, I was like I don't know,in high school maybe, and I was
walking up this hill to thestand, this deer stand, and it
was a big hill in the woods,right by myself, and I feel like
I hear something and I've got aheadlight on right, but you're
not supposed to like flash itaround all over the place
(06:38):
because then you'll scare stuff.
So I'm like looking down infront of me with my headlight
and I hear something and like,instinctively I look up with my
headlamp and there are eyes.
There are just eyes likelooking straight at me and you
know it's not like squirrel eyes, they're not small, they're big
eyes and I'm just like, okay,in my mind it's definitely a
(07:01):
mountain lion, not in my, in myheart it was a mountain lion.
In my mind I was like it'sprobably a deer, so I should
just stand here until it decidesto leave or it gets light
enough that I could like try toget it, I guess.
Um, but I like couldn't standit because I was just so freaked
out that I thought it wassomething other than the deer
that I I ended up moving andscaring it.
(07:21):
But yeah, unseen eyes in thedark are real.
Seen eyes in the dark, evenkind of worse.
Jessica (07:27):
Yeah, no, so all of my stories are in fact camp stories
.
So I'm not somebody that wentout and went into the stand, but
I you know some of the folkswho were holding down the fort
at camp waiting for folks tocome back.
That was me.
Yeah, waiting for folks to comeback.
That was me, and not as manybig cats around here although we
(07:50):
do have wild cats in NewEngland we don't have many, but
but it's always a possibility.
They exist, yeah, and sotypically it's bear Bear was
more of a concern and, again,not as big as some folks might
imagine, but it doesn't have tobe a kodiak to mess you up yeah,
you know like at the very least300 pound black bear can really
(08:13):
do you some harm so yeah, yeahso, anyways, that was a great
tangent, uh eyes in the dark.
Kritter (08:20):
Yes, eyes in the dark are a real thing yeah, yeah, and
just having that sense, youknow, even if you don't see them
, but you can feel them, that'sit's.
It's real, I can.
It's menacing, it is truly realand it is menacing.
Um, okay, so, as you mentioned,it wasn't just eyes, noises,
gurgle, hiss.
(08:40):
Sam, interestingly, immediatelythinks back to tom bombadil,
wishing he was there, which Ithought was fun, interesting,
you know, like curious, becausethey haven't really mentioned
him in so long.
Um, he then thinks of galadrieland the star glass meant to be
a light to frodo in dark places.
What would you have beenthinking about if you were him?
(09:04):
Cause I feel like these werevery like practical thoughts for
him to be having.
Jessica (09:08):
I don't know.
I don't know that I would be.
I don't know that I'd betroubleshooting right Like I
don't know that I'd be, althoughthere is something to be said
for gold star, for workingthrough your inventory mentally
going what do I got on me that Ican use?
I loved the free associationbubble association that got him
from Tom to Galadriel.
(09:29):
I thought that that was superawesome.
I don't think I would be doingthat.
I think I would be like gosh.
I really I don't want to die.
Kritter (09:38):
What's that?
Jessica (09:38):
noise, yeah, so I don't think I.
I'm not somebody you want in apinch.
You know, if we're in physicaldanger, I'm not your girl, I
will definitely tend to you whenyou get back to camp fair
enough.
Kritter (09:55):
I don't know that you're giving yourself enough
credit, but you know what weshould know ourselves, and so,
yeah, I trust you.
I like to think that I would begood in a pinch, but I've never
been confronted with a giantspider before, only a probably
deer in the dark, right?
So yeah, anyways.
Okay.
So, reminded of Galadriel'sfile, frodo brings it out and
(10:19):
shouts something in Elvish,though it's more like someone
else was shouting it through him, which I thought was cool.
The light shone like a silverflame and she lobe is not
deterred.
She had apparently heard thosewords long ago and hadn't heeded
them then.
So there's all this about thefile a yarn dale coming down
from the sunset paths with asilmaril on his brow and she
(10:42):
lobe being an ancient evil whichcomes up again a little later
in the chapter.
Any standout moments for youamidst all this, like lore
dumping.
Jessica (10:51):
I think the biggest takeaway is that Shelob is, you
know, a descendant of true eviland just happens to also be
spider-shaped, and that she isgenuinely old, like she's been
in the area longer than Sauron.
Uh so that was completely newinformation to me.
(11:14):
Um, so that was really uh.
That was probably my biggesttakeaway from this chapter, but
I thought that the next bit wasthe best sweetest hero
description that I've ever read.
So uh, it says uh.
Then, holding the star aloftand the bright sword advanced,
(11:36):
frodo hobbit of the shire walkedsteadily down to meet the eyes
and I was just like that's hero,love, right there yeah, yeah, I
was, uh, so initially they ran,but then frodo was like no man,
we're gonna turn around.
Kritter (11:55):
Um, were you surprised that this actually caused she
love to initially withdraw?
Jessica (11:59):
yes, I was.
I was also surprised about, youknow, the elvish speak coming
out of Frodo.
I know that he's Elf friend, Iknow that he's learned some
Elvish, but the language seemssignificant, especially since
the narrator talks about youknow, this language Shelob had
heard before and it didn't stopher then.
So it definitely feels like acallback.
(12:23):
It's just unfortunately acallback to a story I don't
really know, right, um, yeah, uh, and I did think that it was
incredible to.
It was so much more than how itwas depicted in the movie based
on my remembering.
Yeah, um, because obviously Ihaven't re-watched this part yet
(12:45):
Cause this part is not in is inreturn of the King as opposed
to to town.
Kritter (12:49):
Yeah, which is something that very much
surprised me the first time Isaw the movie.
So I was expecting it and itdid not happen and I was like,
uh, well, it's just anotherthing where there's so much more
lore.
Jessica (13:04):
It doesn't seem like a lot, but it really does amplify
the story and make it, you know,have a more rich background,
yeah, and make the fact thatthey are battling her with
essentially light so much moreimpactful.
Kritter (13:21):
Yeah, ok, so speaking of the lore, because you
mentioned stories that youhadn't heard of before or
whatever, so not having fullcontext, I did want to point out
, for those who may have alittle more context, that they
did say that Shelob wasUngoliant's offspring, which
who's that Must have beensomebody pretty special.
(13:42):
And then also they did mentionthat she had offspring all over
the place, including in Mirkwood.
Whoa, oh see, I was like whatis this face You're remembering?
the offspring in Mirkwood.
Yes, so that is something thatwe were familiar with because we
were at the Hobbit not long agoand I thought it was one little
(14:04):
call back to that, and now weknow why they were so terrible
and horrible I thought that shewas just like a big scary spider
from murkwood and I don't knowthat when I watched the movies
that I got that she was.
You know, she's more based onthis reading she's more than
just a super huge, scary spideryeah, yeah, otherwise known as
(14:27):
or as, saran considers her hiscat, his blood-sucking cat.
Can you imagine, like she wasaround before him, the indignity
of being referred to that wayas unbelievable?
Yeah, as a pet.
Yeah, also the fact that, likethey kind of talked about her
motivations and essentially herentire motivation is death, to
(14:48):
all you know she's not likeSauron's pet he could die too.
For all she cares, she wantseveryone to die and for her to
grow larger than life.
Basically, like evil, like justpure evil.
It was kind of a wilddescription.
I thought, yeah, so okay, wehad Frodo turning around.
Like just pure evil.
It was kind of a wilddescription.
I thought, yeah, so okay, wehad Frodo turning around, taking
(15:09):
her on.
She retreated somehow, which wassurprising, and Sam was like
super stoked about this,praising Frodo for acts worthy
of a song.
And then he suggested that theyget out of there.
Right, and they try to, but atthe very last moment, at the
exit of the tunnel, there arecobwebs blocking their way that
(15:30):
can't be cut by just any blade.
Sam's initial reaction,thinking cobwebs would be no big
deal was obviously premature,which I thought was so funny.
He's like cobwebs, what likeyou're gonna stop us with
cobwebs.
And then his sword didn't work.
Um, did you see this partcoming, this little cobweb?
What like you're gonna stop uswith cobwebs?
And then his sword didn't work.
Um, did you see this partcoming, this little cobweb trap?
Jessica (15:48):
yeah, I mean, the reading made it really clear
that she is not just a regularspider.
So yeah, I kind of did see itcoming.
But never fear, there's anopportunity for some more lore
and apparently there's athrowback to another story, I
don't know where.
Somebody else did amazing deedsand cut crazy webs in the past
(16:11):
with sting with sting, withsting.
Kritter (16:14):
I I, when this happened I felt kind of bad for sam.
It was just like really protojust gets all the cool stuff,
like he has so much cool stuff,and Sam just has some random
sword.
Anyways, that will be remediedhere later.
So once escaped, frodo and Samran with Sam ahead, still
(16:36):
holding the file, because Ithink Frodo had dropped it at
some point, and Frodo behind.
Unfortunately, shelob had manyexits from her lair and she got
in between them and set uponFrodo.
Sam tried to warn Frodo, butthat was the moment that Gollum
returned.
So, madam Gollum fan, how arewe feeling about him now?
Jessica (17:02):
This was really hard because this comes immediately
on the heels of how closeSmeagol was to redemption and
how Sam directly Not on purpose,but did directly ruin that.
But also there's a little bitof satisfaction for me, even as
(17:25):
a Gollum fan, to see themactually have it out, because
it's been building for a reallylong time and Gollum has been
saying terrible things about Sam, just like Sam has been saying
terrible things about Gollum,and so it's a little bit of a
relief for them to finally cometo blows and have it out.
Kritter (17:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a good perspective, I
think I tend to agree.
So, yeah, sam's fury againstGollum finally came to a head
and he escaped from Gollum'sgrasp and laid several solid
blows on him, and Gollum decidednot to engage any further and
he fled.
So for the end of the chapterwe find out that Gollum's plan
(18:14):
had succeeded, though, when itcame to Frodo.
Thoughts before we move on.
Jessica (18:21):
Just how horrible that must have been for Sam.
Yeah, yeah, I would say thatfor this read it was Sam on my
mind A lot.
Kritter (18:32):
Yeah, sam is not having a good time, but it must have
felt good to lay this back downon the column a little bit and
get the better of him.
Jessica (18:42):
I kind of loved it and Sam acquitted himself very
respectively, you know, likehe's a very strong stout fighter
and has a lot of pent-upaggression against Gollum from
their travels.
Kritter (18:56):
He sure does.
He sure does Gosh, it was justlike I.
Okay, so you know I read this,but I read it a long, long, long
time ago and and this wholesequence, these two chapters,
had me just having majorflashbacks because it was just
like you know, she comes out andI know, I know what happens,
(19:17):
right, but not exactly the orderof events.
So then when gollum showed upagain, I was like, oh my god, I
had kind of forgotten.
This was like that rent, like I, you know, because I don't love
it quite as much as you do, andso I was just like I was on
team sam there, like real, realhard, um.
So it was so satisfying for himto just like do the I don't
(19:40):
know, like he, he, he waschanneling his Rudy, you know
moments there, and it was justso so good to see.
Um, I just loved it.
But then of course it's, uh,these.
This last chapter isdevastating.
Um, so let's move to it.
Before chapter 10, the choicesof master Sam wise.
Jessica (19:58):
Let's just talk about what a stellar chapter title
that is.
So, again, I don't look ahead,I just okay, this is what we're
reading.
So when I turned the page, asit were, and I saw this for a
chapter title, knowing that it'sthe last chapter in the book, I
was like come on, that title isfire.
(20:19):
That's all Just like reallygreat choice tolkien.
Kritter (20:24):
I am not sure anybody else has called sam master
samwise, aside from faramir,unless I'm misremembering.
Jessica (20:33):
I know faramir did, but I think he was the only one,
and so it was kind of atelegraph moment too.
Kritter (20:39):
I guess I just kind of nothing to the title.
It's a good, good title, but Iwasn't like, ooh, let's read
into this right.
Like in the context of thistitle or in this chapter he kind
of does become Master Samwiseand like officially, at least
for a while.
So let's talk about it a while.
(21:02):
Um, so, let's talk about it.
So sheelob has frodo wrapped upand begins to carry him away,
sam taking frodo's discardedblade in his left hand.
So I'm picturing dual wieldingsamwise.
Gamgee charges, and quote noonslaught more fierce has was
ever seen in the savage world ofbeasts, where some desperate
small creature armed with littleteeth alone will spring upon a
(21:25):
tower of horn and hide thatstands above its fallen mate.
Did this imagery, this language, did it do anything for you?
Jessica (21:35):
Yeah, it was incredible .
It also reminded me thatthey're halflings, right.
They're small and so Shelob isbig, no matter what.
And think about how much biggershe would be if we were half
the size, you know, if we wereonly three, three and a half
feet tall.
Just how incredibly humongousshe must seem to them.
Kritter (21:55):
Yeah, yeah, I know the language was like that flowery.
It was flowery, I loved it, andI know that mate can also mean
multiple things.
But I don't know like standingover his fallen mate.
I was like huh ConfirmationObviously not, but in my mind
(22:16):
kind of it was romantic.
Jessica (22:19):
It was romantic In my mind.
I feel like I don't know.
I don't know anything aboutTolkien.
I certainly didn't know him asa person, but he, by all
accounts, seems to be a masterof language and I feel I can't
help but feel that my headcanon,coming out of this, is going to
(22:41):
be that he left room forinterpretation.
Yeah, I agree, that'sultimately where I am.
I think that I think that thatsuits me, that it's OK, that
it's OK that mate means morethan one thing.
It's OK for one man to tellanother man that I love you.
It's okay to hold hands whenyou are in the scariest, darkest
(23:05):
moments of your life, Like allof those things are okay
regardless of what spectrum yourrelationship is on it's still
just like.
Kritter (23:22):
I feel like it's beautiful.
Yeah, it's a beautifulrelationship, no matter what
it's just, I always love it whenit leans even more up for
interpretation.
You know, it's just like whenit gets extra tender is when I'm
like, oh man, I know that mightnot have been your intent, but
boy, did you leave it open forinterpretation.
Um, okay, so anyway, sam got aclaw, then one of her eyes, and
(23:45):
he even got underneath her andtried to gash her underbelly,
but here she was distinguishedfrom dragons.
Okay, let's just note that theword dragon was in this book.
Yes, there were dragons.
Jessica (23:59):
At some point there were dragons.
Kritter (24:01):
It might have already shown up, but I don't remember.
But there were dragons hereright now, so there was no soft
underbelly for her.
And quote these hideous foldscould not be pierced by any
strength of men or elf or dwarf.
Instead, she ended up beingpierced by her own strength.
She descended upon sam as heheld, staying upright with both
(24:24):
hands.
Were you surprised by all theblows that sam managed to land
on his own?
And then how it ended uphappening?
Happening with she lobe?
Jessica (24:33):
landing by the blow herself.
Yeah, surprising, yes, um, Iknew that he would be fierce in
his defense and that theadrenaline would be high, but I
just I thought that it wasincredibly well done that he did
impact Leanne so many more hitsthan I thought he would get,
even with that, and that,ultimately, her own momentum was
(24:57):
her undoing was just perfectmomentum was her undoing was
just perfect.
Kritter (25:04):
yeah, I still have to give credit to sam, though,
because, like he had both handson the sword but he could have
ultimately been crushed, granted, the sword helped, I'm sure,
like how the the magic, thesword, I'll drive him.
Jessica (25:12):
Like in my mind, she piled, piled, drove him into the
ground yeah and he survivedyeah.
Yeah, that's wild.
Kritter (25:19):
He kept the sword upright enough that it went into
her.
Good job, sam, good job Stingand Shelob.
You've got to use your mind alittle more in your next fight.
Let me just say You've beenrotting up on the hilltops a
little too long.
I need to stop trash-talking anancient evil being I need to
(25:40):
work on.
Shelobbe, though, is not downand out yet.
As sam recovers from a bit of adaze, she eyes him angrily and
he once again remembersgladriel's file, crying out in a
language he doesn't know,holding a light the file, and as
if his indomitable spirit setits potency in motion.
(26:04):
It glowed like it never hadbefore, a terror out of heaven
burning.
She lobed till, at last, sheretreated thoughts just
incredible.
Jessica (26:15):
You know the phial.
The phial absolutely figuresmuch more heavily into this than
I got again from the movie.
I just thought that the brightlight scared her away like a big
scary spider.
Nah it burned her.
This is so much more than that,and the quote that you just
read, the indomitable spirit.
(26:36):
I loved that I loved the ideathat he's so fiery and stout and
steadfast that it somehowamplified the action of the file
.
Kritter (26:48):
I really like that.
Frodo held a loft, the thing inthe caves, and she was like
please.
And then eventually she waslike okay, I guess I'll retreat
a little bit, but I'm comingback.
Sam holds it aloft and it glowslike it's never glowed before
(27:13):
it burns her.
So to me I'm just like oh Sam,he's got something a little
extra, he's got something goingfor him.
I don't know, it's a proudmoment for absolutely for sam
stands, I think, especiallyafter that last series of
chapters where he kind ofdisappointed us by, you know
being testy with gollum.
Jessica (27:34):
Yeah, again, I feel like frodo's.
Frodo is struggling under onekind of weight and Sam was just
struggling under a differentkind of weight.
That's really how I'm walkingaway from this and that this is.
You know, sam in so many waysrepresents light and hope, and
(27:58):
for that to be acted on soclearly with the file was very
gratifying yeah, agreed, it was.
Kritter (28:06):
I love this part.
It was great.
Um, so are you curious?
I looked up the translation but, like part of me is wondering,
is this, is this his, his?
The thing he cried out inelvish meant to be understood,
because Sam didn't understand it.
You know what I mean?
I'm not sure.
Jessica (28:26):
So I didn't Google it because, as I've said, I don't
Google things because spoilersbeware.
Kritter (28:33):
So I didn't look it up.
Jessica (28:34):
I was insanely curious.
But at each instance over thislast part of the read, when
there is language, it soundslike it's throwing back to a
previous event tied to the fileor the light of Arendelle,
however you choose to perceiveit, whether it's the file itself
or the light itself.
Okay, so I was insanely curious.
(28:57):
So if you want to share it, I'dlove to know.
But yeah, I am Spoilers.
Kritter (29:01):
I saved it, I I translate, translated, I googled
it.
I googled the translation.
Um, because I was curious andI've, you know, read the
silmarillion and I was like I'mnot gonna get spoiled on
anything, whatever it is, um,but I don't think it's really
spoilery, because if I don'texplain it to you, then spoilery
, because if I don't explain itto you then it's not going to do
(29:22):
anything.
But okay, so this is what itmeans, what Sam said in Elvish
oh, elbereth Starkindler, fromheaven, gazing afar to thee, I
cry now in the shadow of death.
Oh, look towards me, ever white.
So it's like a plea to me, it'sgiving crying out to god in a
(29:47):
moment of desperation to likecast his favor on you or in this
case cast her favor on you.
Um, so, yeah, it's very, it'sgiving like the hail mary sort
of in in some ways.
Um, so I don't know if it was acall back to something that
happened in the past or if hewas just calling to an ethereal
(30:07):
being.
Um, but yeah, very.
So that's what it meant.
Pretty neat, um.
So let's see, we got yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Shelob leaves, shelob isgone and Sam goes to see Frodo
and Frodo is down.
Sam thinks he's dead and Samlaments Frodo's passing for
(30:32):
quite some time but ultimatelyremembers his task.
But, finishing the journey withthe ring, he then decided to
take Sting and the file but, asI understand it, leave the
Mithril coat and his own swordwith Frodo.
Were you surprised?
Jessica (30:54):
that he kind of looted Frodo to upgrade his gear?
Uh, yes, yes, also yeah.
So I do want to go back justhalf a tick and him over Frodo's
body saying don't leave me herealone, don't go where I can't
follow Tear jerker, you knowdefinitely tear jerking material
, even though I know you know,still heartbreaking.
(31:20):
And so what I wrote about thisparticular section is, I feel,
like Tolkien do you ever do mathwhere you have to show your
work?
Kritter (31:30):
You have to do the long division.
Jessica (31:33):
This is what this felt like to me and I actually,
rather than feeling like it wascondescending, which some people
might be like, oh, you don'thave to explain it to me, I like
it explained to me.
So I liked that here it feltlike Tolkien was showing his
work.
Sam was, you know, bereft,grieving by what he feels is,
you know, the loss of his mate,um, and has to make a decision.
(31:58):
What do I do?
And you know, tolkien took thetime to really explain Samwise's
thought process and decisionpoints along this line and I
really like that becauseultimately, he changes his mind,
and that's all rooted in thefact that we got to see how he
(32:19):
got there and, ultimately, whenhe changes his mind, we see how
he got there and ultimately,when he changes his mind, we see
how he got there too.
Kritter (32:26):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't mention this, but at one point
he literally like seems toconsider like the possibility
that you know, there's sheercliffs just over there.
Wouldn't have to mourn then, andI was just like whoa, yeah, I
don't remember that at all um,obviously obviously thrilled
that he moved on from that lineof thinking very quickly but at
(32:47):
the same time, the fact that hehad to go there to get
eventually to the no, I need tocontinue on.
I'm the last one.
I said I would do this, I havea task, and yeah, it was.
I agree that witnessing histhoughts, his whole process, was
beneficial in this case.
Jessica (33:07):
And he even says in it you know, I have a choice to
make and guarantee you I'll doit wrong.
And then ultimately he changeshis mind.
So self-fulfilling prophecy, alittle bit, but a little bit all
that more endearing, becauseyou know it's Samwise.
Kritter (33:26):
Yeah, little bit, but a little bit all that more
endearing because you know it'ssamwise.
Yeah, so, given the choice hesets out.
But before he gets completelyout of sight of she loves lair,
he hears orcs all around andwithout much thought, puts the
ring on to avoid getting spotted, just like boop.
I've got this ring, nohesitation.
Yeah, I feel like it took Frodoa very long time.
Jessica (33:47):
And he's watched what this has done to Frodo.
And is keenly aware of whatit's done to Gollum, but like
oop, just going to pop that onthere.
Kritter (33:56):
I just like to believe that he truly was surrounded and
that was the only way ofavoiding detection.
That's what I'm choosing tobelieve.
It just seemed really fast.
It was so fast, but anyways,the orcs eventually spot Frodo
and Sam just immediately givesup on his quest, pursues them
(34:19):
back into Shelob's Tunnels,where I guess there's a
passageway back up to theirtower, and we get to overhear
quite a bit of orc conversationhere.
Did anything stand out to you?
Jessica (34:31):
Well, one thing before we switch to the orcs, because
I'm glad you asked about them.
One thing the ring did notconfer was courage, and I love
that he spelled that out.
Yeah, you know Him deciding tofollow the orcs.
I completely understood in themoment.
I thought it was reallyinteresting too.
(34:52):
I feel as though this was likean everyman pass at orcs, that
these are orcs from differentfactions, like we saw previously
.
We're following differentleaders and potentially have
different orders or prioritiesum and in very relatable ways,
go, yeah, no, we'd rather gowhere the loot's a little bit
(35:15):
better and the scenery is alittle bit nicer and you know,
just kind of um humanizing thema little bit because in their
own way they are reluctantsoldiers.
You know what I mean.
In their own way, like manyenlisted individuals, are just
trying to finish out their time.
Kritter (35:38):
Yeah, and they don't like their management.
They find the Nazgul creepylike their management.
Jessica (35:46):
They find the nazgul creepy.
Kritter (35:46):
I'd like to have a little bit of a better gig where
we don't have to deal with shelobe and and I guess the reason
that these patrols were outbecause they're like two
separate sets of orcs, I guesspatrolling um was that they had
been spotted on the stairs.
I feel like that was notcommunicated.
No, in the.
Jessica (36:02):
Watchers, the watchers, capital W, you know, and that
there is Intel being passed backand forth.
So a message is shared, and Iof course didn't write that down
, but you know essentially thatyou know something's been
spotted, and that's when thehigh Nazgul is mentioned, and
(36:25):
that kind of took me off guard.
So the idea that one of theNazgul is above the others, a
concept I had never considered.
Okay, okay, I assume it's thedude that got sent out with the
army.
Kritter (36:43):
You know he's really super important.
Yeah, okay, I was going to saythey kind of alluded to that.
Jessica (36:50):
It wasn't explicit.
It says Hi Nazgul and it'scapitalized.
Kritter (36:55):
I was like oh, alright, hi Nazgul trademark TM.
And then also the orcs were alittle smarter than I expected.
At least one of them.
They deduced that frodo was notthe only one there and another
had escaped, given like thetraces of blood or like goo or
whatever she lobe left behindthe fact that some of the bonds
(37:16):
have been cut on frodo, um, allof that.
So they kind of like figured itout.
Just the use of criticalthinking yeah didn't expect yeah
it's like, obviously he's notthe only one.
And then the fact that theydecided that the person, the
other person, was the mainwarrior, the large, probably an
elf warrior and that frodo waslike the sidekick so he's
(37:38):
probably not worth much.
I thought that was so funny, andsam did too and said he like
smirked or whatever like aboutit.
Um, that was, that was alsopretty satisfying.
So yeah, the orc convo, I wasnot mad about it.
I thought it was kind of afunny little glimpse into a
different perspective.
Um, so then they were talkingabout how frodo had to be taken
(37:59):
to lugberts, stripped of hispossessions.
So was it just me or did youalso think that lugberts was a
person?
Jessica (38:11):
I.
I wasn't sure if lugberts was aperson or a region, so I
remember lugberts being thethird faction when I was, when
we first had the conversation inwhichever part of the book
where I was like, oh, we havethree different factions that
we're dealing with.
And I wasn't sure if Lugbertswas a region or their leader.
Kritter (38:34):
Okay, See, when I was hearing this conversation, I
thought this is their orc leader.
I guess, Turns out, no, lugbertsis the tower, like Sauron's
tower, it is the.
It's in like the black speechor whatever it's in the black
speech for baradur, baradur,like the, the big main tower.
(38:54):
Um, because, yeah, I looked itup because I was just like I
read the book and listened.
So it read, slash, listened,and so while I was listening I
was was just like who isLugberts?
Why do I not know what Lugbertsis?
I don't understand this.
So when I was working on myoutline, I had to look it up
just to make sure.
And it is the tower.
Jessica (39:12):
So we had Saruman's orcs and we had orcs from the
Moria region, and then we hadthe Lugberts orcs, who were
loyal to Sauron S region, andthen we had the Lugbers orcs,
who were loyal to Sauron.
Sauron's orcs.
Kritter (39:26):
From the tower.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sensenow that I know.
So, to his surprise, Samoverhears that Frodo is alive
and the orcs take him furtherinto their tower behind a barred
door.
And to end the chapter, end thebook, we read Frodo was alive
(39:47):
but taken by the enemy.
Thoughts before we pick an MVP.
Jessica (39:53):
That was heartbreaking, awesome Cliffhanger to end the
chapter on yeah, to end the book.
The book, yes, the book.
I sat there with my Kindle andwent gotta be kidding me, uh-huh
, yeah.
So just, it was palpable for methe frustration of knowing that
(40:17):
, in the same instance that youfind out, essentially, that
Frodo is still alive, that he'son this other side of a wall
slash door, situation that youcannot get through.
And just the frustration I felton Samwise's behalf was crazy.
Kritter (40:33):
Imagine, like 10-year-old Critter reading this
for the very first timepre-movies and at first I think
Frodo's literally dead.
You know he's dead.
Sam thinks he's dead.
Sam thinks he's dead.
Sam takes his stuff.
Sam's gone.
Frodo's out of the picture.
You know, another member of thefellowship gone and that was
(40:56):
insane to like witness.
You know to read and I'm justdevastated.
And then I get this major highnot dead, and within a page or
something not dead but taken.
It's going to be a tall orderto get him out of this tower
filled with orcs from the top ofthe tower which is where they
(41:18):
said they were taking himCompletely unattainable.
For one small hobbit with,granted, a pretty nice sword
thanks to, thanks to his lootingabilities, um, and a file like.
Oh, I remember, like vividlyremember, the feeling because I
would um, I got these initiallyfrom the library so like having
(41:39):
to like wait until we took atrip to the library to return
the two towers and get thereturn of the king, and I am
dying, truly heartbroken.
What is going to happen next?
So, yeah, I think that's a signof a pretty good ending.
Jessica (41:56):
I wouldn't let myself read so.
Above and beyond that, I wasplanning on going to see the
movies.
It was such a good cliffhangerfor book two that I was like I
can't.
If I start to read now, in prepfor our next recording, it will
color our debris, so I can't doit.
(42:17):
So I, as of yet, have notstarted return of the King,
because I wanted to get throughour last episode and our wrap
party before I lost the spacethat I'm in on it.
Kritter (42:31):
Okay, that's good of you.
That is well done, well done,bravo, thank you.
You've truly dedicated to thecause.
Jessica (42:39):
I am.
Kritter (42:40):
Okay, any more thoughts for you to the MVP thing.
Okay so we've, before we do theMVP thing.
Okay, so we've got a traditionwhere we pick an MVP from the
chapters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (42:58):
Well, I know this is going to be a complete and utter
shock, but I pick SamwiseGamgee.
I completely agree.
Know this is going to be acomplete and utter shock, but I
picked sam wise gamgee Icompletely agree.
Kritter (43:08):
Sorry spoilers, he's mine too, but why is he yours?
Jessica (43:12):
uh, because this read he just embodied everything
everything about loyalty,everything about why it was a
good thing that he went withFrodo.
Sam is not perfect, frodo isnot perfect, none of the
characters are perfect.
(43:32):
And it has been hard with Samlies and and being so
contentious with Gollum, but herises right, he shows up, he has
the loyalty.
He's not perfect, but he ishimself and he is there out of
pure love and clearly that'swhat was needed.
Kritter (43:56):
Yeah, amen, he's just God to your character.
Honestly, the file knew itglowing brighter than it had
ever glowed.
Uh, he, you know, I don't know.
Uh, what is the?
What is the word?
The um, the fighting style.
You know where you're in a ringand you can kick and punch cage
(44:18):
man mma.
He, like mma, fought gollum offof himself with you know, for
the first time really seeing himdo something like that Physical
, I don't know, maybe not theexact first time, but like he
really came to play againstGollum, against Shelob.
He was the one that rememberedthe file in the first place.
(44:38):
So even though Frodo did havehis nice little moment with the
file wouldn't have happenedwithout Sam, and so it was just
Sam.
Jessica (44:46):
Just I love him so much and they wouldn't actually both
be alive still at the close ofthis book, I feel like True.
Kritter (44:57):
Yeah, shelob would have taken Frodo, the orcs never
would have found him and shewould have killed him Like yeah,
completely true.
Um, so insane.
You know he really is that bigwarrior that the orcs think he
is, but it's in his heart justin a compact yeah, exactly, I
love him so much.
(45:18):
Mvp samwise for sure, yeah.
Jessica (45:22):
Okay, well, I think that is it for us for today.
We are planning our wrap partystream and we're going to have
that here on the but are theredragons?
Youtube channel.
We plan on having that Tuesday,june 25th, at 8 PM central time
.
On behalf of both of us, I'dlike to say thank you so much
(45:45):
for tuning in to Episode 8 ofSeason 3 of but Are there
Dragons, brought to you by yourhost, by Jessica Sedai and
CritterXD.
Don't forget to follow us atbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod, just one T on X.
You can also find your host onsocial media as critter XD and
(46:08):
shelf indulgence.
That's it for us today.
We would like to continueworkshopping new catchphrases
for season three, so let us know, on social media or discord,
how you feel about this one.
Farewell, my hobbits.
May we meet again in my house.
Thanks, bye, bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.