August 27, 2024 • 52 mins
Join Kritter and Jessica one last time (for now) as they finish their read of Return of the King, with a discussion about Book 6, chapters 8 & 9. The mountains are misty and so are our hosts' eyes. There's a villain in the Shire, and Jessica is surprised (even though she probably shouldn't be)! Our Hobbit adventurers soon put things right with all the skills they acquired in their time away, and ultimately say their final goodbyes. Did we mention, the hosts are (mostly) fine?
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kritter (00:07):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Return of the King by JRR
Tolkien, with me as yourresident Lord of the Rings
veteran and me as a Lord of theRings first timer In this our
(00:30):
eighth and last regular seasonepisode of season four.
We're going to discuss book six,chapters eight through nine,
the end of the book, before wedive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:48):
I'm a little in shock that we got here in what I feel
like was pretty fast time.
Even with a break, we got herepretty quick.
August is here and kids aregoing back to school and seasons
are passing and it just feelsvery timely with the seasons
(01:09):
that are, you know, with thethings that are changing in the
story as well.
So it made me a little bitnostalgic.
Kritter (01:14):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
How about you?
Yeah, I was just trying tothink like.
I got a notification the otherday that it was the one year
anniversary of our Twitteraccount and you know we opened
the account in anticipation ofthe podcast.
So we have been doing this likereleasing episodes for less
than a year and we got throughfour books, which I feel like
(01:36):
you know for some podcasts.
That's not bad, not at all.
It's a solid pace.
We did take, you know, breaksin between the books depending
on what we were doing right forcosplay crafting for for life.
Uh, so I'm pretty proud of usthat we're here, um, and yeah,
here at the end of all things, Iknow, although there is, there
(02:02):
is the, is the epilogue orwhatever.
What are we calling them?
The appendices?
The appendices which we are notmandating for people, though
someone in my comments,somewhere, maybe on Instagram, I
can't remember did say that weget more Aragorn and Arwen if we
look into the appendices.
Jessica (02:22):
I think that was in your Discord, I think somebody
mentioned that and I will say Ipeeked a little bit at the
appendices and I probably willstill, but they read very much
like appendices.
Kritter (02:36):
So we're not forcing anyone to read them, but we will
dabble, maybe later.
Jessica (02:41):
I don't want to be held to any strict standard.
Kritter (02:49):
Exactly exactly babble.
Maybe I don't want to be heldto any strict standard.
Exactly exactly so it isexciting to have the trilogy
proper completed after you knowtoday, so totally okay.
Jessica (02:57):
So with that in mind, we've got a little psa we'd like
to give before we get started.
Kritter (03:02):
Tell us your MVP moments.
Our trip through the trilogy isalmost at an end, and the
mountains aren't the only onesthat are misty.
Jessica (03:14):
It's true, as we draw to the close of this chapter, we
want to reminisce with youabout our favorite moments, and
we really want to hear aboutyours.
So what are your favorite?
But Are there Dragons momentsfrom any of the seasons we've
done so far?
Kritter (03:30):
Was it the time Jess had to look up every single
agricultural term?
Jessica (03:35):
Or maybe when Critter got us some orc names, something
else.
Kritter (03:39):
Hit us up in the comments on YouTube and the but
Are there Dragons?
Channel, on my Discord or onsocial media and you'll likely
get a shout out during ourupcoming wrap party.
Yes, and with that being said,book six, chapter eight, the
Scouring of the Shire.
So it's just the four hobbitsnow, and as they arrive at the
(04:03):
Brandywine Bridge they find itbarred by a great spiked gate.
No one can enter betweensunrise and sunset, on the
orders of the chief, aka Lotho,living up at Bag End.
Were these the vibes youexpected for the hobbits' return
(04:23):
to the Shire?
Jessica (04:24):
No, zero percent, did not expect any of this.
Starting with the title theScouring of the Shire I'm like
what are we doing?
What's happening?
Yeah, question mark.
And I did think that it wasnoteworthy that Frodo points out
about Lotho, uh, making acomment about him dropping the
(04:46):
Baggins.
At least, so you know, family,what are you going to do?
We've all got one, am I right?
Uh, you know, I just I relatedto Frodo in that moment of you
know, he's that relative he'drather not have.
Kritter (05:02):
Yeah, at least.
At least they're just callinghim the chief and not chief
baggins.
Uh, yeah, I guess whenever yousaw the chapter title how, what
kind of feelings did you, I?
Jessica (05:14):
I was completely perplexed.
I did not know what to expect.
I was like, wait, we should begoing to a happy place.
And I will say that I threwback to bilbo, right like bilbo
came home to chaos and he hadbeen declared dead and all of
his belongings have been stolen.
Um, this feels more ominous andmenacing than that.
Yeah, um, you know the the wayis barred and gated, uh, and,
(05:40):
and the tone is much more severe.
Kritter (05:45):
So it turns out, lotho has even taken some ruffian men
into his employ, though Marymanages to send one, bill Ferny,
on his way with the help of aswift kick from Bill the Pony,
his namesake.
I'm kind of digging in thischapter.
How saucy and commanding thehobbits are.
(06:06):
Do you think they can?
At the time this was happening,when you were reading, did you
think they could keep this up,or were you thinking they're
just kind of like fronting?
Jessica (06:16):
I don't think that.
I feel.
I didn't feel as though theywere fronting.
I thought that it was.
This is their street cred,catching up with them right Like
this is the Shire.
They have seen some stuff, aswe've elaborated on many, many
times, and this is them kind ofcoming into their own right.
(06:37):
So we talked about how Gandalfhas said I'm out, I'm done.
You guys got this and I honestlydo believe that they've got
this.
So it does feel a little saucycompared to how kind of, like I
said, a little ominous.
It seems that everything'sclosed down.
Um, it doesn't seem like alaughing matter, so it is a
(07:00):
little blustery, but at the sametime.
I know they've earned that.
Kritter (07:06):
Yeah, 100%.
They're changed beings.
So the hobbits stayed the nightin a less than welcome
environment and then, on theirway to Hobbiton, encountered a
troop of sheriffs.
I cannot get over how theyspell sheriffs by the way, it is
the cutest way you couldpossibly spell sheriffs.
So the sheriffs are ready toarrest them for gate breaking
(07:26):
and other trumped up yet mildlyaccurate charges.
The sheriffs arrest them, butthe four hobbits are so plainly
in charge it's comical and theyeventually part ways with the
sheriffs without issue.
How did you feel about thislittle?
Jessica (07:40):
jot.
Uh, I loved it.
I think that it was perfect, um, to show like these, not to
belittle, the way that thesheriff's actions would have
been received by hobbits, whotypically are not well traveled,
you know.
Uh, but to some, to some hobbitfolk who had seen some stuff
(08:01):
probably a little lessimpressive, um, yeah, I think
that the way that Tolkien tookthe time to describe they have
regulated down everything, theyare on rations, they can't have
company, they are counting outhow much fire would they get?
Kritter (08:21):
The chief doesn't take a beer.
Jessica (08:23):
Yeah, it is doesn't take a beer.
Yeah, it's just.
It's crazy, um, how just rightit is like it's a perfect recipe
for oppression, um, to take thejoy out of literally everything
.
Um, so that was that was veryapparent to me as I was reading
it.
What's worse?
(08:45):
I did have a question for you,critter.
Okay, if you channel your innerhobbit, okay, what's worse?
No food or no tobacco.
Kritter (08:59):
Inner hobbit.
It's got to be the food.
It's gotta be the food.
Just because there's a liketheir whole day is is kind of
scheduled around all of theirdifferent food, you know
adventures, whereas the tobaccofeels more, while necessary,
still kind of a luxury.
Right, food is, food isnecessary.
Jessica (09:20):
Tobacco is slightly less necessary so it's like the
dessert they have at the end oftheir day.
Kritter (09:26):
Exactly, I mean both devastating that they're being
limited in this way.
But yeah, I've got to say food.
What about you?
Jessica (09:34):
That's where I landed, too honestly.
So reading all that, I was justlike that's a way to just take
everything that makes them happyand and limit them.
You know, um, above and beyondthe destruction of the areas in
their town and their homes andall these other things,
(09:55):
everything is tailor-made toruin the joie de vivre that you
that I associate with hobbitsspeaking of like you.
Kritter (10:02):
You mentioned that.
So they make it to frodo andsam's stomping grounds.
Right, that I associate withhobbits, speaking of you
mentioned.
They make it to Frodo and Sam'sstomping grounds, hobbiton or
whatever, and it's nearlyunrecognizable Trees gone,
houses burned down, smokestacksand brick and ill-favored men in
place of hobbits.
Is this the kind of trouble inthe Shire you expected when?
Jessica (10:24):
Butterbur mentioned it.
Kritter (10:24):
No, this is beyond it.
No, this is beyond that.
Jessica (10:26):
Yeah, no, this is beyond that, like, um, a few
miscreants, a few ruffians, ifyou will.
Okay, okay, but this comes downto like hobbits spying on other
hobbits, which just gave mesuch a gross feeling in the pit
of my stomach.
Um, I really it was.
It was awful.
So this is, in a lot of ways,far worse than I would have
(10:49):
expected.
Another thing about the charges, again, because you're an audio
book consumer and I'm a writtenconsumer, the list was
capitalized.
So you're arrested for gatebreaking, tearing up the, the
rules, assaulting gatekeepers,trespassing, and, and all of the
major words are highlightedlike titles, and it's just.
(11:11):
It tickled me as I was readingthem.
And then they lead them.
You know the, the four hobbitsthat are in custody lead them,
uh, you know, on a merry chasethrough the woods, essentially.
Kritter (11:24):
And aren't the hobbits all mounted too?
So they're like mounted ridinghorses and they've got a little
herd of sheriffs behind them.
Even one of the farmers I can'tremember which farmer looked
and just kind of laughed likewho's guarding who here?
Who's arrested who?
I can't even remember.
It just made me laugh, it wasfunny.
Jessica (11:43):
And somebody I don't I didn't write laugh, it was funny
, um, and somebody I don't Ididn't write who it was because
of course I didn't, but therewas no gainsaying.
For such masterful travelersand again in context, they are
incredibly world traveledcomparatively, but also in their
own right, like they've been tomany nations.
They've been on the prowl,they've been on the move for two
(12:06):
years, like they've been on the.
They've been on the move for awhile, um, and so I just I had
pointed out that, you know,that's just a great way to
illustrate how much morephysically seasoned they are,
that they can go for hours onend and the sheriffs are
essentially huffing and puffingand trying to keep up because
they only got one break.
Kritter (12:28):
Poor guys, poor little sheriffs.
So the hobbits?
Speaking of how worldly andwell-traveled and equipped they
are, they make quick work ofskulking ruffians who seem to be
following orders from somesharky character, rather than
Lotho Sackville Baggins.
Rather than fighting, theymerely rolled a nat 20 in
(12:49):
intimidation.
You know, they've got the armor, they've got the swords.
Frodo realizes at this pointthat Lotho is likely a prisoner
and instructs his friends toavoid hobbit casualties in any
future.
Fighting at all costs.
As fun fact, no hobbit had everintentionally killed another in
(13:09):
the Shire.
So are there any standoutmoments for you in this ruffian
encounter?
Jessica (13:17):
There was a quote in here that really struck home.
It says this was Frodo andSam's own country and they found
out now that they cared aboutit more than any other place in
the world.
Just very relatable, you know,once you, once you leave home a
little bit and you do get alittle bit of mileage on you,
you, it helps kind of snapcertain things into perspective
(13:40):
and I feel that very keenly forthem in this moment.
So I thought that it was agreat call out by tolkien, um,
and then frodo is actuallyreally quiet in these
interactions as they are doingtheir intimidation check against
these ruffians, um, and I findit actually a little bit more
(14:02):
threatening and I dig it um,which is a different perspective
because, typically we like ourhobbits, innocent and pure, but
when it comes to threateningsomebody's home, I fully believe
in doing whatever it takes topreserve your homeland.
(14:24):
Like everybody deserves to feellike their home is safe.
So I just he was very quiet.
He was, as you mentioned, veryvocal about no life loss, no
killing whatsoever.
Throwing back, like in my mind.
It immediately made me think ofhim telling Sam how he'll never
, you know, swing another swordagain.
(14:46):
Things like that.
Yeah, that's where he's atmentally and I respect it, but
at the same time makes him noless interested in defending the
shire right, like we got to dothis, but we got to do it clean,
basically.
Kritter (15:02):
So finally, mary, pippin and sam more or less
begin the mobilization of theshire.
Mary puts the horn to good use,summoning allies, sam visits
farmer cotton's farm and seesrosie for the first time in a
year, and pippin leaves to rallythe toques who had been, you
(15:23):
know, challenging what was goingon all along.
They had been toques, they hadbeen yeah who had been you know,
challenging what was going onall along.
They had been Tooks.
They had been yeah, they hadbeen Tooks.
So eventually, a band ofruffians shows up and the
hobbits make quick work of them,killing one and taking the rest
captive.
Did you ever think you'd seethe day when the hobbits of the
Shire form an army?
Jessica (15:44):
No, but I think that it throws back to things that
Gandalf has said about.
You know, they really are anamazing people and I didn't
highlight it, but there was agreat quote in there about how
they closed ranks around theruffians and the ruffians didn't
know their peril.
And the ruffians didn't knowtheir peril.
Kritter (16:10):
Um, because just because they're agricultural
food, loving smoking peopledoesn't mean that they won't
protect what's theirs yeah, yeah, and I was kind of worried
because you know, there werelike it's not a ton of men at
this point compared to how manyhobbits there were, but at the
same time, like, reach isimportant when it comes to
fighting, um, but they weresmart enough to kind of lay this
(16:33):
trap where they could stay back, they could, um, use bow and
arrows instead of like fightinghand to hand necessarily the
whole time.
And so they uh yeah, marionpippin and their little, having
having had a little bit of armyexperience, they really were
kind of smart and how they, howthey handled it, I think, um,
(16:54):
yeah, yeah, yeah, and thosehobbits, you know, don't have
battle experience, right?
Jessica (17:00):
like I think that.
I think that if we go back tothe prologue, it talks about how
hobbits haven't been involvedin combat in centuries, so I
think predating theestablishment of the Shire, if
I'm remembering correctly, yeah,nobody's been to battle um.
(17:23):
So it accents how important itwas to have them come back and
have all of that experience tokind of make helpful suggestions
, because obviously heart countsfor a lot.
But it doesn't overcome.
You know, long arms to yourpoint right, exactly so I.
Kritter (17:42):
I noticed this also whenever I was at the lord of
the rings musical.
This part came up and I forgotthat it was in the books.
But it's when Rosie kind oflike accuses Sam of being late
or like I expected you earlierwhen you took your time, didn't
you Did that like offend you,because I remember like my back
went straight up when she saidthat Excuse me, girlfriend.
Jessica (18:07):
Yeah, like my back went straight up when she said that,
excuse me, girlfriend.
Yeah, so I I had to go back andreread it because I was.
She was like I thought you weregonna be here in the spring and
I was like, where are you goingwith this?
What are you?
Um?
And then I think that once Ireread it, and of course, then
she proceeds to chase him downthe road and say don't forget to
come back.
You know, I chalked it up tothis.
(18:28):
This was her way of showingI've been waiting for you.
This is her way of articulatingthat.
But in that moment I was likewait, what?
She's poking him?
She's poking him, but you knowwhat?
We have an active femaleparticipant in actual romance
and we'd love to see it.
We do love to see it.
Kritter (18:48):
Yes, we appreciate the like.
I don't know she's zesty, rightshe is.
She's not going to roll over,which is great.
So when you first read aboutSharky to completely change
subjects sharky to completelychange subjects.
(19:08):
Bent on cells, senselessdestruction, no concern for
pollutants, gears and wheels andoutlandish contraptions, did
you have a guess as to who hemight be?
Jessica (19:14):
well, listen, critter, I gotta tell you, when I was
rereading this section, as I waspreparing my notes, um, full
disclosure.
No, I didn't.
Okay, as I was rereading it, Ifelt real dumb.
I felt real dumb.
So there were a couple ofthings.
First off, rereading thesection for last episode where
(19:37):
he basically threatens the shireuh-huh, right over the head, um
, and then, uh, when, who was itthat was talking to the frodo?
Frodo was talking to theruffians and said your precious
master is a beggar in thewilderness.
I passed him on the road.
(19:58):
Another reference the frodoknew yep, way over my head.
And then the Sharky thing.
I wrote down Sharky, hmm,interesting name, yeah, um, yeah
.
No, I'm gonna say I wasblissfully unaware.
Kritter (20:15):
I went into this section of read just as fresh as
I do all of the other ones sowhenever I um went to do the
outline because I am anaudiobook early, but when I do
the outline I do it with aphysical book I noticed that
there was a uh footnote forsharky, like about its origin.
So it happens later, butbecause we're talking about his
(20:38):
name, it's Orcish.
It's probably from Orcish,which is Sharkoo, which is Old
man.
So in case anyone was wonderingwhere Sharky came from,
according to my book's footnoteon the matter, it's Orcish.
Well, it's a derivation ofOrcish, meaning Old man, man.
So go forth and do that whichyou will.
(21:00):
So, um, I think tolkien has,intentionally or not, made his
stance rather clear again.
In my opinion, when it comes totechnology and its negative
impact on the environment andthe welfare of people.
Is this him once again hammeringthat home, talking about, like
the change in the mills and thesmokestacks and the bricks and
(21:23):
the manufacturing and all thatstuff?
Jessica (21:26):
I?
I think so to a certain, to acertain extent, but at the same
time he's talking aboutunnecessary industry.
Where they are, they have not.
They don't have any more grainto mill.
To justify the second mill.
Um, and that they are runningall the time even though there
isn't grain, just to, uh,essentially soil the water uh
(21:49):
downstream.
Um, so I do still think that itis some of that uh bias showing
through in his writing, but Ithink that it was to illustrate
the point of unnecessarymanufacture and unnecessary
industrialization, just for thesake of um who knows, for
(22:11):
whatever yeah.
Kritter (22:13):
Overproduction, whether it's evil based on evil or
greed or whatever.
Yeah, I get, I get.
I can see what you're doingthere.
Um, so we do find out that yourfavorite hobbit, lobelia
sackville baggins, told theruffians off when many other
hobbits were afraid to do so,and she got dragged off and
(22:33):
imprisoned for her trouble.
Did this begin to change youropinion of her at all, or were
you like good?
Jessica (22:41):
Put her in prison.
This was hard.
First off, the reminder thatshe is Lotho's mom yeah, but it
did make me feel bad for Lobeliaand I didn't like it.
Okay, I don't like it.
Okay, I don't like it.
Kritter (23:01):
Yeah, but nobody should be putting anybody's aged
mother in in prison yeah, insome ways she kind of reminds me
of my grandma, because she canbe, she's very german and so
she's very I don't want to saysevere, but kind of severe, like
in some ways, right, she willjust tell, say it like it is, or
at least how she perceives it,and sometimes the way she
(23:24):
perceives it is pretty harsh,right.
And so, yeah, in this, thisparticular chapter, where it's
like what are you guys doing?
Well, we're gonna build somesheds up there for Sharky, who
said you can do that.
You know, like, get out of here.
You got that.
So it's her, it's so her.
Jessica (23:39):
But also let's point out that she was being
protective of Bag End.
So for me that edged it alittle bit closer, like that was
another point in her favor thatyou know she is of a
personality and dispositionwhere she will say what she
thinks and will talk back tothem and not just cower.
(24:01):
I have a lot of appreciationfor that as a personality trait
and that it was done in defenseof Bag End.
Kritter (24:16):
I think that's probably the most redeeming quality
about it.
That's fair.
I'm just playing devil'sadvocate because I completely
agree with you that it isredeeming.
Jessica (24:22):
I feel like we all have one in our family.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, we all have one in ourfamily.
Kritter (24:28):
It could also be her like.
I love that she's defending BagEnd Don't get me wrong but this
bag end that she foughtessentially tooth and nail to
try to get out of bilbo andfrodo's hands right.
So I'm like, of course she'sdefensive of it.
She's been craving it for herwhole life, yeah, decades, but
still we want to see bag endpreserved.
Jessica (24:50):
So thank you, lobelia, for your efforts yeah, so I I
was sad on her behalf and Ididn't like how that felt.
Kritter (24:59):
Okay.
So ultimately, pippin returnedwith the rest of the Tooks just
in time for a huge band ofruffians to descend on the
Hobbit forces.
A literal battle ensues.
Nearly 70 of the ruffians and19 hobbits were killed.
I don't know why, but 19hobbits dying at this battle of
(25:24):
the bywater hit me harder thanhearing about casualties from
prior battles.
These books, how did the battlehit for you?
Jessica (25:36):
um, I think that it felt more.
It felt like the stakes werereally high for a people who had
left war behind, right like wejust spoke to the fact that
hobbits haven't really hadanything to do with war since
the establishment of the shirewhich I'd have to go back to the
prologue and read but that'slike a thousand years before.
(25:59):
You know a very, very peaceful,settled community and yeah,
it's probably not rational, butlosing 19 of those peaceful
souls definitely stings anddefinitely seems to carry more
weight.
Ruffians kind of know whatthey're in for.
(26:20):
There's always that's mymindset a lot I guess I
shouldn't say that that's mymindset very often that if you
live a rough life then you kindof know what the stakes are and
the hobbits were really justlooking to defend their
homesteads yeah, yeah, can'tblame them for what they did.
Kritter (26:42):
So I did.
I did note that, um, maryslaying the leader and mary and
pippin gaining just like insanefame as these battle leaders.
I thought that was a fun sideeffect, captains.
So you captains there.
So I said this before, buttheir time with the armies of
Gondor and Rohan, they left animpact, it imprinted itself on
(27:04):
them, so good for them.
You know, the two littlegoofballs have grown up a little
bit in these books.
Jessica (27:12):
I love the fact that Pippin flashed his King's colors
when the ruffian was talkingsmack about king's messengers.
I loved that.
I loved that he was just like.
That was the last straw.
Okay, well, I'm a king'smessenger, so now what are you
going to do?
Kritter (27:29):
Yeah, you don't believe me?
Let me show you.
So the ruffian's being handled.
It was time for the hobbits topay a visit to the boss, but
they found old Sharky insteadSharky, as we mentioned, being
Saruman.
This interaction was a purelyunpleasant one that ended with
(27:49):
Wormtongue murdering Saruman,the hobbits shooting Wormtongue
down as he fled, and thediscovery that Lotho had been
murdered at Saruman's orders.
Any standout moments from thisfor you?
Jessica (28:06):
There were a couple.
So for this interactionspecifically, I really wrote
Saruman.
I feel dumb.
That's my note.
Okay, I really wrote Saruman, Ifeel dumb.
That's my note, Uh and Sarumanmakes a comment about Gandalf
and says when his tools havedone their task, he drops them,
alluding to the way in which hefinds the hobbits here without
(28:28):
Gandalf to accompany them.
Um, and then the last.
The biggest piece of this isthat Frodo, still a major
advocate for redemption.
After Grima kills Saruman I'msorry, after Saruman and Grima
are told to leave, he tellsGrima you don't have to go with
(28:51):
him, you don't have to followhim, you can still turn away
with him.
You don't have to follow him,you can still turn away.
um, and that was veryreminiscent of golem type things
uh for me that you know proto'slike you can turn from this
path.
You don't have to stay on itproto is such a little softy
which I get, I totally get likehis conversations with gandalf.
Kritter (29:12):
You know who are you to decide whether someone should
live or die, all that stuff.
It really it made an impact onhim for sure and he saw
firsthand that, like him andBilbo, both having mercy on
Gollum, ended up saving theworld right.
Jessica (29:29):
But the fact that that part of him is still intact
after this incredible journeythat they've gone on, Just you
know, softens my heart a littlebit.
Kritter (29:40):
Saruman is such a little sneaky snake though.
Jessica (29:42):
You know what I mean.
Kritter (29:43):
Yes, he's like you can't kill me.
If you kill me, I'll cast ashadow on land and will haunt
you forever.
Jessica (29:49):
And I'm like really yeah, if my blood is spilt in
the Shire and I'm just readingthat going.
Kritter (29:59):
Ew, you're so awful, I know, purely unpleasant.
I feel like when they've beentalking to him it has been bad,
just bad, like he's awful.
He's the actual worst it turnsout, the actual worst.
Yeah, he's terrible.
Jessica (30:09):
So any final thoughts about this chapter before we
move on um, there were a coupleof moments that I just wanted to
throw back to.
There was one, when, um youmentioned it, that frodo
realized faster than any of hisfriends that lotho is likely a
hostage at this point, that youknow these ills are being done
(30:30):
in his name, but he has zerocontrol over the situation.
Um, and then the not clash is astrong word the differing
viewpoints between Frodo andMerry Frodo being very staunchly
anti-violence and do as littleharm as possible and only attack
(30:50):
in the most extreme need toprotect Hobbit life.
And Merry saying essentiallylike that's great in theory, but
we lucked out that lastinteraction and the idea that we
are going to be able to retakethe Shire from this negative
element without violence isunrealistic at best.
(31:12):
And I I think that that's Ifeel like.
I feel like that's a very realconversation that would happen
between brothers and arms,regardless of what race you are,
regardless of what conflictyou're from, you know, like that
felt just very real and rootedin real life yeah, proto is
(31:33):
idealistic, mary is practical,which is so funny.
Kritter (31:36):
Based on where they started, you know, I don't know
They've both changed a lot.
Jessica (31:43):
Then Sam rescuing his gaffer and bringing him over to
the Cotton's house, and thegaffer's biggest complaint being
that they ruined my taters.
Kritter (31:55):
so we know where samwise gets it from, and that
is precious and the fact thatwas it frodo who told the gaffer
like this is one of your, yoursam is like one of the most
famous people in the world, andthe gaffer's like I don't know
about that.
I thought that was nice.
That frodo was like trying totalk him up to his elders.
Jessica (32:14):
Yeah, it was.
It was very sweet the wholeinteraction with the gaffer.
And then the last thing wasthat even Sam's vision in the
mirror had not prepared him forwhat they saw.
And then the reveal that theyhad cut down the party tree.
They had done so much damage tothe Shire as a whole but
(32:35):
cutting down the party tree evenI felt that I know it hurt.
I was like oof that's bad.
Kritter (32:43):
How dare you?
Jessica (32:45):
So, yeah, those are my last thoughts on Chapter 8.
Kritter (32:49):
Okay.
Book 6, chapter 9, the GreyHavens.
This is the final chapter, soit's time to rebuild, but first
things first, it's time torelease the prisoners.
Fredegar bulger, the formermayor, and lobelia sackville
baggins were among theincarcerated, and lobelia seems
(33:13):
changed.
She gave Frodo bag and painedby the loss of her Lotho and
bequeathed him her possessionswhen she died, to help those
whose homes had been taken bythe troubles.
So ultimately did she manage towin you over?
Jessica (33:29):
Yes, but it it burns, precious it stings.
Uh yeah, no, she clearly had achange of heart.
Um, and you're never too old tolearn it's true.
Kritter (33:44):
And whenever she came out of the cells it mentioned
something about how people werelike cheering her on or whatever
, and it made a note to be likeshe wasn't used to being admired
or something like that.
And I was like, oh, that's sosad, like she was unpleasant.
Jessica (34:00):
So yeah, I mean I guess she wouldn't have been admired,
but at the same time and thinkabout what it feels like to walk
in those shoes and be perceivedin that way, and the
interactions.
Yeah, absolutely All of that.
So, yeah, another littleredemption arc.
Kritter (34:16):
Yeah you love to see it , so the oh yeah, go ahead.
Jessica (34:20):
I was going to say the absolute sugar rush I got from
Fred Agar being there.
So I just it threw me.
It was a great way to startthis chapter, right, like this
is the last chapter.
This is hard.
I actually didn't take a lot ofnotes on this chapter.
I think that the denial hadjust set in so strong.
Yeah, it was really hard for meto take notes, but starting
(34:44):
this chapter with Fredegar threwme immediately back to you know
the fellowship and just howconcerned genuinely concerned I
was for poor Fredegar and tohelp, and he got left to you
know what could have been areally, really dire consequence.
(35:09):
So all of that came rushingback when I saw Fredegar's name
on the page and so it was like agenuine, like sugar rush.
Kritter (35:18):
I was like oh, my God there he is.
So the new houses, the brickugly houses, were taken down in
the old rebuilt, and sam took itupon himself to see to the
replanting.
He used the gift from galadrielone kernel of dust for every
tree replanted, and the silvernut to hopefully replace the
(35:42):
party tree which had beensenselessly cut down at
Saruman's order.
As we said, his efforts were aresounding success and the new
party tree was none other than amallorn, one of the finest in
the world and the only one westof the mountains and east of the
sea.
How did this hit for you?
(36:03):
Any standout moments from therebuilding of the shire?
Jessica (36:07):
um, I love the fact that, uh, you know, tolkien took
the time to tell us theevolution of the names that they
were, you know.
So they part of the rebuild waswhat are they going to name it?
Um, and so they just,ultimately they went through a
couple of iterations that are alittle bit more.
They just, ultimately they wentthrough a couple of iterations
that are a little bit more wildor loosey-goosey and ultimately
(36:28):
they settled on New Row.
And just moments like that areso they're authentic to me.
Right, like you go throughsomething that for the Hobbits
it doesn't even need to bequalified, like that was a
traumatic event for thatcommunity.
That was a traumatic event forthat community and part of that
rebuild effort is the naming andthat puts me squarely in my
(36:54):
Hobbit feels, which I love.
Kritter (36:56):
Yeah, what was the?
It's New Row, but then it'sjokingly called Sharky's End,
right, or something like that.
Jessica (37:02):
Yes, that's what they called it.
And I dug it Same.
Kritter (37:07):
Same Good for them.
So quite possibly the mostprecious fact in all of
Tolkien's books.
Sam ends up marrying RosieCotton and they end up moving in
with Frodo at Bag End At.
Jessica (37:22):
Frodo's request.
Kritter (37:29):
At Frodo's request.
Jessica (37:29):
So did you adore this as much as I did?
I did, but I did have like adeep sense of, uh, foreboding
not deep, but like I I did.
I have a little catch in mythroat.
I was like he's establishinghim as his heir, you know, for
whatever that looks like, youknow he's going to be, he's
going to inherit.
This is him setting them off toinherit.
(37:52):
Bag End.
This is him planting the seedsthat he can walk away.
Kritter (37:57):
So that did ping you, so you do notice some things.
Jessica (38:00):
Some things, some things usually weird, traumatic
stuff, but yeah, yeah.
Kritter (38:05):
Well, so another super, unbelievably precious fact
Frodo helps Sam name his firstchild.
They name her Eleanor for thegolden flowers in Lothlorien,
because I guess it's a traditionfor hobbits to name girls after
flowers.
Yeah, that was his suggestion.
So another just such such aprecious fact that I love so
(38:30):
much, I don't know, uh, and thefact that sam was going to call
his first son frodo is also justlike the cutest thing ever.
Jessica (38:37):
and then he comes to frodo so conflicted, like he
wants to do the right thing andand, and frodo's just like.
This is not.
You know, this isn't a problem,just give her a flower name and
you know frodo's not fussedabout this at all.
And I I love that for frodo aswell, because those are the
kinds of quiet, sweet momentsthat he thought he would never
(38:58):
see again yeah, and here it is.
Kritter (39:01):
And here it is.
So frodo wraps up his work onthe red book Bilbo gave him to
finish and he hands it down toSam to finish the last few pages
.
Bilbo had written a fair amount, but Frodo even more.
And the titles that Bilbo hadworkshopped and I'm going to ask
you your favorite included myDiary, my Unexpected Journey
(39:26):
there and back again, and whathappened after.
Adventures of Five Hobbits, thetale of the Great Ring compiled
by Bilbo Baggins from his ownobservations and the accounts of
his friends, and what we did inthe War of the Ring.
Frodo titled the book theDownfall of the Lord of the
Rings and the Return of the King.
The book the downfall of thelord of the rings and the return
(39:48):
of the king, as seen by thelittle people, being the memoirs
of bilbo and frodo at the shire, supplemented by accounts of
their friends and the learningof the wise, together with
extracts from books of lordtranslated by bilbo and
rivendell.
So whose title is the best?
And were there any that youparticularly liked, even if they
weren't practical?
Jessica (40:02):
uh.
So the two that I like the bestare there, and back again.
And what we did after, yeah anduh, the war of the ring one.
I don't have that one memorized.
Those two are my favorite, butI do think that frodo's ultimate
title before the semicolon, uhwithout all of that?
(40:23):
Yes, without all of that, whichI understand.
You know they're, they'redocumenters and you know I, I
get it, I see it, they're mypeople.
Um, but everything before thesemicolon I thought was very
good.
Kritter (40:35):
Well, you know downfall of the lord of the rings.
Yes, the king, yeah, yeah, Ilike it too, and I like how it
ended up being.
You know the title of the book.
So the suggestion here is weare reading something that was
written by Bilbo, frodo and Sam,ultimately Right, which I think
is so nice.
I don't know.
Yeah, it warms my heart.
Jessica (40:58):
So maybe you want to go back to the red book references
and the prologue and kind ofpull that together now.
Kritter (41:04):
True, yeah, in the prologue, and kind of pull that
together now.
True, yeah, I guess now thatwe've gotten its whole journey,
it's the full circle moments,right for sure.
So Sam and Frodo take off for ashort journey under the guise
of Sam seeing Frodo off on atrek to visit Bilbo in Rivendell
.
But when the hobbits encounterElrond, galadriel and Bilbo
while they're still in the Shire, the jig is up.
(41:26):
Sam realizes Frodo is planningto leave, and Frodo's words of
encouragement, when Sam is soobviously dismayed, I thought
were very touching.
His time may come to followFrodo as a fellow ring bearer,
but for now he can be one andwhole with Rosie and Eleanor and
little frodo and even morechildren.
He'll stay mayor as long as hewants, the most famous gardener
(41:49):
in history and as busy and happyas anyone can be.
So tell me, did this make youhappy or sad?
Jessica (41:59):
oh, my god, I bawled so hard.
Um, it made me happy.
I will say, each time we readI'm I'm misting up now Just
thinking about it Each, each ofthese sections that we go to
there, it's like just anotherslight twist of the perspective
for me.
Yeah, I did not realize that itwas.
(42:24):
Or, to me, after reading it,this felt so much more like
Frodo was giving Sam the questto live.
So I don't feel like that wasthe vibe.
It was about saying goodbye wasabout saying goodbye, but in
(42:49):
this instance, reading it, I,what I walked away from it
feeling like was that sam'squest is to is to live and to
tell their story and to pickthat up and carried it on so
that it continues to matter.
Yeah, yeah that's a really hardthing yeah
Kritter (43:07):
sorry no, it's okay.
It's like, I agree, sam was sosad and so torn and you could
tell even before they got to thepoint where, like they were
actually splitting up, right,they were talking about sam
leaving just a little bit forthe shire, like obviously I have
to get back.
You know, I've got rosie, I'vegot the little girl.
I wish I could come with you.
(43:27):
And frodo, kind of, he gives ahint, right, he's like I, we
need you to be whole, like yeah,you're so conflicted, you're so
split in two and and you shouldbe whole, and yeah, and this
was him giving him that.
I guess it was just oh, sofreaking, precious and amazing,
and then heartwarming and sad itwas.
(43:48):
Yeah, breaks your heart, butalso like fills it up again.
It's wild.
Um.
So they arrive at the grayhavens gandalf is there, also
planning to depart, and, lo andbehold, mary and pippin show up,
noting that this time it wasn'tsam that gave frodo away.
Remember sam was the spy.
Yeah, but gandalf himself.
(44:10):
And gandalf gives us anotherone of my favorite lines well,
here at last, dear friends onthe shores of the sea, comes the
end of our fellowship in middleearth.
Go in peace.
And my favorite part, I willnot say do not weep, for not all
tears are an evil.
Jessica (44:29):
So how are you holding up at this point, because I'm as
soon as mary and pippin cameback, it was all over again.
Um, yeah, because obviouslythat would have been the longest
ride home ever For Sam byhimself, yeah, so I thought that
(44:49):
that was incredible Becausethey you know, the three of them
are the ones that are the onesthat lived, the ones that carry
the story forward, and yeah, itwas just more waterworks.
It was good stuff, it was goodstuff, pretty much good stuff.
Kritter (45:08):
We love it.
So the ship sails away, frodoeventually passing beyond a gray
rain curtain turned all tosilver glass and beholding white
shores and beyond them a fargreen country under a swift
sunrise, and Sam, mary andPippin eventually ride back
together in silence.
(45:29):
Mary and Pippin branch off toBuckland and Sam to Bag End,
where dinner and Rosie andEleanor are waiting for them and
he says to end the book.
Well, I'm back, and how is thatfor the ending to the trilogy?
It's fine, I'm not crying it'sfine.
Jessica (45:53):
I don't know what you're talking about.
It was an incredible end.
It was a great way to end, asit should.
Kritter (46:03):
It ends with hope yeah so warm, just because, as it
should, it ends with hope.
Yeah so warm, just a lovelylike.
That's what Sam was lookingforward to the whole time.
Right, he kept thinking of theShire and wrote God, why am I?
It's ridiculous, I know, noteven looking at the book.
Right now I'm looking at anoutline in google drive.
Jessica (46:28):
Come on, really sorry for all the snuffling for our
podcast listeners, I'm realsorry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, Ido think that it's an incredible
way to end the story.
It is the fruition ofeverything that they.
It throws back to a thing thatFrodo says, as he's saying
goodbye, that you know, in orderto preserve this thing,
(46:52):
somebody must give it up, and so, you know, that's that ultimate
sacrifice from Frodo.
Yeah, think of you know aconversation we had in a
different episode about theultimate sacrifice, and was it
enough that they didn't die onthe, on the hills of mordor, or
the, the hills of foothills ofmountain doom?
(47:14):
And I think that it is becauseI think, in terms of ultimate
sacrifice, I I would behard-pressed to find a person
who says this doesn't meet thatrequirement.
Kritter (47:26):
Yeah, unless you're dead inside.
Jessica (47:27):
You might be dead inside.
Kritter (47:30):
I don't know, yeah, and it also ties into one of
Bilbo's titles right there andBack Again, and Sam's back,
right.
Yeah, frodo and Bilbo went ontheir way as ring bearers and
Sam may follow them, but for nowhe's got a life to live, to
carry, to carry on, which wasgreat, yeah.
Jessica (47:58):
So final thoughts before we pick an.
Kritter (48:02):
MVP.
Jessica (48:02):
It was a ride yeah, it was a ride for a story that I
thought I knew inside and out.
Kritter (48:12):
It was a ride and it was worth it, amen.
Okay, so it's fine, we're allfine.
Yes, so we've got a traditionwhere we pick an MVP from the
chapters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (48:35):
So this is actually a little bit harder for me this
one, which sometimes it is whenthere's less action, some of the
lesser plot points, whensometimes there's less action,
some of the lesser plot points Ifeel like for me it has to be a
tie between Mary and Pippin.
(48:56):
So I pick Mary to berepresentative of Mary and
Pippin because I feel like theyvery much stepped up in terms of
mobilizing the Shire and comingup with a plan and leading them
.
Not that Sam and Frodo didn'tparticipate, but I really feel
like Merry and Pippin took thelead in raising the Shire and
defending them and I love thatfor them.
(49:16):
I will say that I had severalheartbeats of pause where I
considered heartbeats of pausewhere I considered picking Sam,
and at least we'll mention himas honorable mention for um.
You know, his quest now beginsas the Herald of the fourth age
and and you know, kind ofcarrying that memory forward so
(49:37):
that it honors and and so that,uh, you know, so that it was all
worth it essentially, uh, so Iwas going to give sam honorable
mention for that, but I think Ihave to stick with, uh, mary
okay, um well, we are on adifferent path here.
Kritter (49:58):
I.
It was tough for me too.
I kind of, because againthere's no like bombshell
dropped moments in this read.
But I am going to give it toFrodo Because while he was like
I don't want to call him a dudduring the fighting, but he
wasn't the battle leader, hewasn't wielding a sword or
whatever.
(50:18):
He was the moral compass of theoperation, which I appreciated,
which I appreciated.
There were also some moments,like earlier in the read, where,
when they were engaging withthe sheriffs and the guardsmen
and stuff like that, he had somelike good thoughts and like
funny lines and stuff like thatwhenever he was challenging them
(50:38):
.
So I appreciated that.
But mainly it's for hiscompassion for, for his enemies,
for sam, um, and yeah, justsome of the stuff that he his
encouragement to sam, hisinvitation for him to move, for
them to move in him declaringsam his heir, him talking sam up
(51:01):
to the gaffer.
There were so many moments thatI just like he really warmed my
heart and gave me hope and, andso I think of all the people.
He didn't do the best in thefighting, but he had another
role and I think he played itreally well.
Jessica (51:19):
Excellent, okay, so crazy.
That's it for this book.
As we said, we're going toprobably each of us individually
look at some appendices, but weare calling this a wrap on
season four, so we would like toinvite you to please catch our
season four wrap party stream onAugust 29th at 8 pm Central on
(51:45):
but Are there Dragons YouTube.
I would say once again, thankyou so much for tuning in to
episode eight of season four ofbut Are there Dragons, brought
to you by your hosts, jessicaSedai and Critter XD.
Don't forget to follow us onbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
(52:05):
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod, just one T on X.
You can find us on social mediaas CritterXD and Shelf
Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We are continuing to workshopnew catchphrases for season four
, so let us know on social mediahow you feel about this last
(52:27):
one.
In the immortal words ofgandalf go in peace.
I will not say do not weep, fornot all tears are an evil bye.
Thank you.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, critter, and I'myour host Jess, and we're
continuing this adventure withthe Return of the King by JRR
Tolkien, with me as yourresident Lord of the Rings
veteran and me as a Lord of theRings first timer In this our
(00:30):
eighth and last regular seasonepisode of season four.
We're going to discuss book six,chapters eight through nine,
the end of the book, before wedive in.
Jessica, what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:48):
I'm a little in shock that we got here in what I feel
like was pretty fast time.
Even with a break, we got herepretty quick.
August is here and kids aregoing back to school and seasons
are passing and it just feelsvery timely with the seasons
(01:09):
that are, you know, with thethings that are changing in the
story as well.
So it made me a little bitnostalgic.
Kritter (01:14):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
How about you?
Yeah, I was just trying tothink like.
I got a notification the otherday that it was the one year
anniversary of our Twitteraccount and you know we opened
the account in anticipation ofthe podcast.
So we have been doing this likereleasing episodes for less
than a year and we got throughfour books, which I feel like
(01:36):
you know for some podcasts.
That's not bad, not at all.
It's a solid pace.
We did take, you know, breaksin between the books depending
on what we were doing right forcosplay crafting for for life.
Uh, so I'm pretty proud of usthat we're here, um, and yeah,
here at the end of all things, Iknow, although there is, there
(02:02):
is the, is the epilogue orwhatever.
What are we calling them?
The appendices?
The appendices which we are notmandating for people, though
someone in my comments,somewhere, maybe on Instagram, I
can't remember did say that weget more Aragorn and Arwen if we
look into the appendices.
Jessica (02:22):
I think that was in your Discord, I think somebody
mentioned that and I will say Ipeeked a little bit at the
appendices and I probably willstill, but they read very much
like appendices.
Kritter (02:36):
So we're not forcing anyone to read them, but we will
dabble, maybe later.
Jessica (02:41):
I don't want to be held to any strict standard.
Kritter (02:49):
Exactly exactly babble.
Maybe I don't want to be heldto any strict standard.
Exactly exactly so it isexciting to have the trilogy
proper completed after you knowtoday, so totally okay.
Jessica (02:57):
So with that in mind, we've got a little psa we'd like
to give before we get started.
Kritter (03:02):
Tell us your MVP moments.
Our trip through the trilogy isalmost at an end, and the
mountains aren't the only onesthat are misty.
Jessica (03:14):
It's true, as we draw to the close of this chapter, we
want to reminisce with youabout our favorite moments, and
we really want to hear aboutyours.
So what are your favorite?
But Are there Dragons momentsfrom any of the seasons we've
done so far?
Kritter (03:30):
Was it the time Jess had to look up every single
agricultural term?
Jessica (03:35):
Or maybe when Critter got us some orc names, something
else.
Kritter (03:39):
Hit us up in the comments on YouTube and the but
Are there Dragons?
Channel, on my Discord or onsocial media and you'll likely
get a shout out during ourupcoming wrap party.
Yes, and with that being said,book six, chapter eight, the
Scouring of the Shire.
So it's just the four hobbitsnow, and as they arrive at the
(04:03):
Brandywine Bridge they find itbarred by a great spiked gate.
No one can enter betweensunrise and sunset, on the
orders of the chief, aka Lotho,living up at Bag End.
Were these the vibes youexpected for the hobbits' return
(04:23):
to the Shire?
Jessica (04:24):
No, zero percent, did not expect any of this.
Starting with the title theScouring of the Shire I'm like
what are we doing?
What's happening?
Yeah, question mark.
And I did think that it wasnoteworthy that Frodo points out
about Lotho, uh, making acomment about him dropping the
(04:46):
Baggins.
At least, so you know, family,what are you going to do?
We've all got one, am I right?
Uh, you know, I just I relatedto Frodo in that moment of you
know, he's that relative he'drather not have.
Kritter (05:02):
Yeah, at least.
At least they're just callinghim the chief and not chief
baggins.
Uh, yeah, I guess whenever yousaw the chapter title how, what
kind of feelings did you, I?
Jessica (05:14):
I was completely perplexed.
I did not know what to expect.
I was like, wait, we should begoing to a happy place.
And I will say that I threwback to bilbo, right like bilbo
came home to chaos and he hadbeen declared dead and all of
his belongings have been stolen.
Um, this feels more ominous andmenacing than that.
Yeah, um, you know the the wayis barred and gated, uh, and,
(05:40):
and the tone is much more severe.
Kritter (05:45):
So it turns out, lotho has even taken some ruffian men
into his employ, though Marymanages to send one, bill Ferny,
on his way with the help of aswift kick from Bill the Pony,
his namesake.
I'm kind of digging in thischapter.
How saucy and commanding thehobbits are.
(06:06):
Do you think they can?
At the time this was happening,when you were reading, did you
think they could keep this up,or were you thinking they're
just kind of like fronting?
Jessica (06:16):
I don't think that.
I feel.
I didn't feel as though theywere fronting.
I thought that it was.
This is their street cred,catching up with them right Like
this is the Shire.
They have seen some stuff, aswe've elaborated on many, many
times, and this is them kind ofcoming into their own right.
(06:37):
So we talked about how Gandalfhas said I'm out, I'm done.
You guys got this and I honestlydo believe that they've got
this.
So it does feel a little saucycompared to how kind of, like I
said, a little ominous.
It seems that everything'sclosed down.
Um, it doesn't seem like alaughing matter, so it is a
(07:00):
little blustery, but at the sametime.
I know they've earned that.
Kritter (07:06):
Yeah, 100%.
They're changed beings.
So the hobbits stayed the nightin a less than welcome
environment and then, on theirway to Hobbiton, encountered a
troop of sheriffs.
I cannot get over how theyspell sheriffs by the way, it is
the cutest way you couldpossibly spell sheriffs.
So the sheriffs are ready toarrest them for gate breaking
(07:26):
and other trumped up yet mildlyaccurate charges.
The sheriffs arrest them, butthe four hobbits are so plainly
in charge it's comical and theyeventually part ways with the
sheriffs without issue.
How did you feel about thislittle?
Jessica (07:40):
jot.
Uh, I loved it.
I think that it was perfect, um, to show like these, not to
belittle, the way that thesheriff's actions would have
been received by hobbits, whotypically are not well traveled,
you know.
Uh, but to some, to some hobbitfolk who had seen some stuff
(08:01):
probably a little lessimpressive, um, yeah, I think
that the way that Tolkien tookthe time to describe they have
regulated down everything, theyare on rations, they can't have
company, they are counting outhow much fire would they get?
Kritter (08:21):
The chief doesn't take a beer.
Jessica (08:23):
Yeah, it is doesn't take a beer.
Yeah, it's just.
It's crazy, um, how just rightit is like it's a perfect recipe
for oppression, um, to take thejoy out of literally everything
.
Um, so that was that was veryapparent to me as I was reading
it.
What's worse?
(08:45):
I did have a question for you,critter.
Okay, if you channel your innerhobbit, okay, what's worse?
No food or no tobacco.
Kritter (08:59):
Inner hobbit.
It's got to be the food.
It's gotta be the food.
Just because there's a liketheir whole day is is kind of
scheduled around all of theirdifferent food, you know
adventures, whereas the tobaccofeels more, while necessary,
still kind of a luxury.
Right, food is, food isnecessary.
Jessica (09:20):
Tobacco is slightly less necessary so it's like the
dessert they have at the end oftheir day.
Kritter (09:26):
Exactly, I mean both devastating that they're being
limited in this way.
But yeah, I've got to say food.
What about you?
Jessica (09:34):
That's where I landed, too honestly.
So reading all that, I was justlike that's a way to just take
everything that makes them happyand and limit them.
You know, um, above and beyondthe destruction of the areas in
their town and their homes andall these other things,
(09:55):
everything is tailor-made toruin the joie de vivre that you
that I associate with hobbitsspeaking of like you.
Kritter (10:02):
You mentioned that.
So they make it to frodo andsam's stomping grounds.
Right, that I associate withhobbits, speaking of you
mentioned.
They make it to Frodo and Sam'sstomping grounds, hobbiton or
whatever, and it's nearlyunrecognizable Trees gone,
houses burned down, smokestacksand brick and ill-favored men in
place of hobbits.
Is this the kind of trouble inthe Shire you expected when?
Jessica (10:24):
Butterbur mentioned it.
Kritter (10:24):
No, this is beyond it.
No, this is beyond that.
Jessica (10:26):
Yeah, no, this is beyond that, like, um, a few
miscreants, a few ruffians, ifyou will.
Okay, okay, but this comes downto like hobbits spying on other
hobbits, which just gave mesuch a gross feeling in the pit
of my stomach.
Um, I really it was.
It was awful.
So this is, in a lot of ways,far worse than I would have
(10:49):
expected.
Another thing about the charges, again, because you're an audio
book consumer and I'm a writtenconsumer, the list was
capitalized.
So you're arrested for gatebreaking, tearing up the, the
rules, assaulting gatekeepers,trespassing, and, and all of the
major words are highlightedlike titles, and it's just.
(11:11):
It tickled me as I was readingthem.
And then they lead them.
You know the, the four hobbitsthat are in custody lead them,
uh, you know, on a merry chasethrough the woods, essentially.
Kritter (11:24):
And aren't the hobbits all mounted too?
So they're like mounted ridinghorses and they've got a little
herd of sheriffs behind them.
Even one of the farmers I can'tremember which farmer looked
and just kind of laughed likewho's guarding who here?
Who's arrested who?
I can't even remember.
It just made me laugh, it wasfunny.
Jessica (11:43):
And somebody I don't I didn't write laugh, it was funny
, um, and somebody I don't Ididn't write who it was because
of course I didn't, but therewas no gainsaying.
For such masterful travelersand again in context, they are
incredibly world traveledcomparatively, but also in their
own right, like they've been tomany nations.
They've been on the prowl,they've been on the move for two
(12:06):
years, like they've been on the.
They've been on the move for awhile, um, and so I just I had
pointed out that, you know,that's just a great way to
illustrate how much morephysically seasoned they are,
that they can go for hours onend and the sheriffs are
essentially huffing and puffingand trying to keep up because
they only got one break.
Kritter (12:28):
Poor guys, poor little sheriffs.
So the hobbits?
Speaking of how worldly andwell-traveled and equipped they
are, they make quick work ofskulking ruffians who seem to be
following orders from somesharky character, rather than
Lotho Sackville Baggins.
Rather than fighting, theymerely rolled a nat 20 in
(12:49):
intimidation.
You know, they've got the armor, they've got the swords.
Frodo realizes at this pointthat Lotho is likely a prisoner
and instructs his friends toavoid hobbit casualties in any
future.
Fighting at all costs.
As fun fact, no hobbit had everintentionally killed another in
(13:09):
the Shire.
So are there any standoutmoments for you in this ruffian
encounter?
Jessica (13:17):
There was a quote in here that really struck home.
It says this was Frodo andSam's own country and they found
out now that they cared aboutit more than any other place in
the world.
Just very relatable, you know,once you, once you leave home a
little bit and you do get alittle bit of mileage on you,
you, it helps kind of snapcertain things into perspective
(13:40):
and I feel that very keenly forthem in this moment.
So I thought that it was agreat call out by tolkien, um,
and then frodo is actuallyreally quiet in these
interactions as they are doingtheir intimidation check against
these ruffians, um, and I findit actually a little bit more
(14:02):
threatening and I dig it um,which is a different perspective
because, typically we like ourhobbits, innocent and pure, but
when it comes to threateningsomebody's home, I fully believe
in doing whatever it takes topreserve your homeland.
(14:24):
Like everybody deserves to feellike their home is safe.
So I just he was very quiet.
He was, as you mentioned, veryvocal about no life loss, no
killing whatsoever.
Throwing back, like in my mind.
It immediately made me think ofhim telling Sam how he'll never
, you know, swing another swordagain.
(14:46):
Things like that.
Yeah, that's where he's atmentally and I respect it, but
at the same time makes him noless interested in defending the
shire right, like we got to dothis, but we got to do it clean,
basically.
Kritter (15:02):
So finally, mary, pippin and sam more or less
begin the mobilization of theshire.
Mary puts the horn to good use,summoning allies, sam visits
farmer cotton's farm and seesrosie for the first time in a
year, and pippin leaves to rallythe toques who had been, you
(15:23):
know, challenging what was goingon all along.
They had been toques, they hadbeen yeah who had been you know,
challenging what was going onall along.
They had been Tooks.
They had been yeah, they hadbeen Tooks.
So eventually, a band ofruffians shows up and the
hobbits make quick work of them,killing one and taking the rest
captive.
Did you ever think you'd seethe day when the hobbits of the
Shire form an army?
Jessica (15:44):
No, but I think that it throws back to things that
Gandalf has said about.
You know, they really are anamazing people and I didn't
highlight it, but there was agreat quote in there about how
they closed ranks around theruffians and the ruffians didn't
know their peril.
And the ruffians didn't knowtheir peril.
Kritter (16:10):
Um, because just because they're agricultural
food, loving smoking peopledoesn't mean that they won't
protect what's theirs yeah, yeah, and I was kind of worried
because you know, there werelike it's not a ton of men at
this point compared to how manyhobbits there were, but at the
same time, like, reach isimportant when it comes to
fighting, um, but they weresmart enough to kind of lay this
(16:33):
trap where they could stay back, they could, um, use bow and
arrows instead of like fightinghand to hand necessarily the
whole time.
And so they uh yeah, marionpippin and their little, having
having had a little bit of armyexperience, they really were
kind of smart and how they, howthey handled it, I think, um,
(16:54):
yeah, yeah, yeah, and thosehobbits, you know, don't have
battle experience, right?
Jessica (17:00):
like I think that.
I think that if we go back tothe prologue, it talks about how
hobbits haven't been involvedin combat in centuries, so I
think predating theestablishment of the Shire, if
I'm remembering correctly, yeah,nobody's been to battle um.
(17:23):
So it accents how important itwas to have them come back and
have all of that experience tokind of make helpful suggestions
, because obviously heart countsfor a lot.
But it doesn't overcome.
You know, long arms to yourpoint right, exactly so I.
Kritter (17:42):
I noticed this also whenever I was at the lord of
the rings musical.
This part came up and I forgotthat it was in the books.
But it's when Rosie kind oflike accuses Sam of being late
or like I expected you earlierwhen you took your time, didn't
you Did that like offend you,because I remember like my back
went straight up when she saidthat Excuse me, girlfriend.
Jessica (18:07):
Yeah, like my back went straight up when she said that,
excuse me, girlfriend.
Yeah, so I I had to go back andreread it because I was.
She was like I thought you weregonna be here in the spring and
I was like, where are you goingwith this?
What are you?
Um?
And then I think that once Ireread it, and of course, then
she proceeds to chase him downthe road and say don't forget to
come back.
You know, I chalked it up tothis.
(18:28):
This was her way of showingI've been waiting for you.
This is her way of articulatingthat.
But in that moment I was likewait, what?
She's poking him?
She's poking him, but you knowwhat?
We have an active femaleparticipant in actual romance
and we'd love to see it.
We do love to see it.
Kritter (18:48):
Yes, we appreciate the like.
I don't know she's zesty, rightshe is.
She's not going to roll over,which is great.
So when you first read aboutSharky to completely change
subjects sharky to completelychange subjects.
(19:08):
Bent on cells, senselessdestruction, no concern for
pollutants, gears and wheels andoutlandish contraptions, did
you have a guess as to who hemight be?
Jessica (19:14):
well, listen, critter, I gotta tell you, when I was
rereading this section, as I waspreparing my notes, um, full
disclosure.
No, I didn't.
Okay, as I was rereading it, Ifelt real dumb.
I felt real dumb.
So there were a couple ofthings.
First off, rereading thesection for last episode where
(19:37):
he basically threatens the shireuh-huh, right over the head, um
, and then, uh, when, who was itthat was talking to the frodo?
Frodo was talking to theruffians and said your precious
master is a beggar in thewilderness.
I passed him on the road.
(19:58):
Another reference the frodoknew yep, way over my head.
And then the Sharky thing.
I wrote down Sharky, hmm,interesting name, yeah, um, yeah
.
No, I'm gonna say I wasblissfully unaware.
Kritter (20:15):
I went into this section of read just as fresh as
I do all of the other ones sowhenever I um went to do the
outline because I am anaudiobook early, but when I do
the outline I do it with aphysical book I noticed that
there was a uh footnote forsharky, like about its origin.
So it happens later, butbecause we're talking about his
(20:38):
name, it's Orcish.
It's probably from Orcish,which is Sharkoo, which is Old
man.
So in case anyone was wonderingwhere Sharky came from,
according to my book's footnoteon the matter, it's Orcish.
Well, it's a derivation ofOrcish, meaning Old man, man.
So go forth and do that whichyou will.
(21:00):
So, um, I think tolkien has,intentionally or not, made his
stance rather clear again.
In my opinion, when it comes totechnology and its negative
impact on the environment andthe welfare of people.
Is this him once again hammeringthat home, talking about, like
the change in the mills and thesmokestacks and the bricks and
(21:23):
the manufacturing and all thatstuff?
Jessica (21:26):
I?
I think so to a certain, to acertain extent, but at the same
time he's talking aboutunnecessary industry.
Where they are, they have not.
They don't have any more grainto mill.
To justify the second mill.
Um, and that they are runningall the time even though there
isn't grain, just to, uh,essentially soil the water uh
(21:49):
downstream.
Um, so I do still think that itis some of that uh bias showing
through in his writing, but Ithink that it was to illustrate
the point of unnecessarymanufacture and unnecessary
industrialization, just for thesake of um who knows, for
(22:11):
whatever yeah.
Kritter (22:13):
Overproduction, whether it's evil based on evil or
greed or whatever.
Yeah, I get, I get.
I can see what you're doingthere.
Um, so we do find out that yourfavorite hobbit, lobelia
sackville baggins, told theruffians off when many other
hobbits were afraid to do so,and she got dragged off and
(22:33):
imprisoned for her trouble.
Did this begin to change youropinion of her at all, or were
you like good?
Jessica (22:41):
Put her in prison.
This was hard.
First off, the reminder thatshe is Lotho's mom yeah, but it
did make me feel bad for Lobeliaand I didn't like it.
Okay, I don't like it.
Okay, I don't like it.
Kritter (23:01):
Yeah, but nobody should be putting anybody's aged
mother in in prison yeah, insome ways she kind of reminds me
of my grandma, because she canbe, she's very german and so
she's very I don't want to saysevere, but kind of severe, like
in some ways, right, she willjust tell, say it like it is, or
at least how she perceives it,and sometimes the way she
(23:24):
perceives it is pretty harsh,right.
And so, yeah, in this, thisparticular chapter, where it's
like what are you guys doing?
Well, we're gonna build somesheds up there for Sharky, who
said you can do that.
You know, like, get out of here.
You got that.
So it's her, it's so her.
Jessica (23:39):
But also let's point out that she was being
protective of Bag End.
So for me that edged it alittle bit closer, like that was
another point in her favor thatyou know she is of a
personality and dispositionwhere she will say what she
thinks and will talk back tothem and not just cower.
(24:01):
I have a lot of appreciationfor that as a personality trait
and that it was done in defenseof Bag End.
Kritter (24:16):
I think that's probably the most redeeming quality
about it.
That's fair.
I'm just playing devil'sadvocate because I completely
agree with you that it isredeeming.
Jessica (24:22):
I feel like we all have one in our family.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, we all have one in ourfamily.
Kritter (24:28):
It could also be her like.
I love that she's defending BagEnd Don't get me wrong but this
bag end that she foughtessentially tooth and nail to
try to get out of bilbo andfrodo's hands right.
So I'm like, of course she'sdefensive of it.
She's been craving it for herwhole life, yeah, decades, but
still we want to see bag endpreserved.
Jessica (24:50):
So thank you, lobelia, for your efforts yeah, so I I
was sad on her behalf and Ididn't like how that felt.
Kritter (24:59):
Okay.
So ultimately, pippin returnedwith the rest of the Tooks just
in time for a huge band ofruffians to descend on the
Hobbit forces.
A literal battle ensues.
Nearly 70 of the ruffians and19 hobbits were killed.
I don't know why, but 19hobbits dying at this battle of
(25:24):
the bywater hit me harder thanhearing about casualties from
prior battles.
These books, how did the battlehit for you?
Jessica (25:36):
um, I think that it felt more.
It felt like the stakes werereally high for a people who had
left war behind, right like wejust spoke to the fact that
hobbits haven't really hadanything to do with war since
the establishment of the shirewhich I'd have to go back to the
prologue and read but that'slike a thousand years before.
(25:59):
You know a very, very peaceful,settled community and yeah,
it's probably not rational, butlosing 19 of those peaceful
souls definitely stings anddefinitely seems to carry more
weight.
Ruffians kind of know whatthey're in for.
(26:20):
There's always that's mymindset a lot I guess I
shouldn't say that that's mymindset very often that if you
live a rough life then you kindof know what the stakes are and
the hobbits were really justlooking to defend their
homesteads yeah, yeah, can'tblame them for what they did.
Kritter (26:42):
So I did.
I did note that, um, maryslaying the leader and mary and
pippin gaining just like insanefame as these battle leaders.
I thought that was a fun sideeffect, captains.
So you captains there.
So I said this before, buttheir time with the armies of
Gondor and Rohan, they left animpact, it imprinted itself on
(27:04):
them, so good for them.
You know, the two littlegoofballs have grown up a little
bit in these books.
Jessica (27:12):
I love the fact that Pippin flashed his King's colors
when the ruffian was talkingsmack about king's messengers.
I loved that.
I loved that he was just like.
That was the last straw.
Okay, well, I'm a king'smessenger, so now what are you
going to do?
Kritter (27:29):
Yeah, you don't believe me?
Let me show you.
So the ruffian's being handled.
It was time for the hobbits topay a visit to the boss, but
they found old Sharky insteadSharky, as we mentioned, being
Saruman.
This interaction was a purelyunpleasant one that ended with
(27:49):
Wormtongue murdering Saruman,the hobbits shooting Wormtongue
down as he fled, and thediscovery that Lotho had been
murdered at Saruman's orders.
Any standout moments from thisfor you?
Jessica (28:06):
There were a couple.
So for this interactionspecifically, I really wrote
Saruman.
I feel dumb.
That's my note.
Okay, I really wrote Saruman, Ifeel dumb.
That's my note, Uh and Sarumanmakes a comment about Gandalf
and says when his tools havedone their task, he drops them,
alluding to the way in which hefinds the hobbits here without
(28:28):
Gandalf to accompany them.
Um, and then the last.
The biggest piece of this isthat Frodo, still a major
advocate for redemption.
After Grima kills Saruman I'msorry, after Saruman and Grima
are told to leave, he tellsGrima you don't have to go with
(28:51):
him, you don't have to followhim, you can still turn away
with him.
You don't have to follow him,you can still turn away.
um, and that was veryreminiscent of golem type things
uh for me that you know proto'slike you can turn from this
path.
You don't have to stay on itproto is such a little softy
which I get, I totally get likehis conversations with gandalf.
Kritter (29:12):
You know who are you to decide whether someone should
live or die, all that stuff.
It really it made an impact onhim for sure and he saw
firsthand that, like him andBilbo, both having mercy on
Gollum, ended up saving theworld right.
Jessica (29:29):
But the fact that that part of him is still intact
after this incredible journeythat they've gone on, Just you
know, softens my heart a littlebit.
Kritter (29:40):
Saruman is such a little sneaky snake though.
Jessica (29:42):
You know what I mean.
Kritter (29:43):
Yes, he's like you can't kill me.
If you kill me, I'll cast ashadow on land and will haunt
you forever.
Jessica (29:49):
And I'm like really yeah, if my blood is spilt in
the Shire and I'm just readingthat going.
Kritter (29:59):
Ew, you're so awful, I know, purely unpleasant.
I feel like when they've beentalking to him it has been bad,
just bad, like he's awful.
He's the actual worst it turnsout, the actual worst.
Yeah, he's terrible.
Jessica (30:09):
So any final thoughts about this chapter before we
move on um, there were a coupleof moments that I just wanted to
throw back to.
There was one, when, um youmentioned it, that frodo
realized faster than any of hisfriends that lotho is likely a
hostage at this point, that youknow these ills are being done
(30:30):
in his name, but he has zerocontrol over the situation.
Um, and then the not clash is astrong word the differing
viewpoints between Frodo andMerry Frodo being very staunchly
anti-violence and do as littleharm as possible and only attack
(30:50):
in the most extreme need toprotect Hobbit life.
And Merry saying essentiallylike that's great in theory, but
we lucked out that lastinteraction and the idea that we
are going to be able to retakethe Shire from this negative
element without violence isunrealistic at best.
(31:12):
And I I think that that's Ifeel like.
I feel like that's a very realconversation that would happen
between brothers and arms,regardless of what race you are,
regardless of what conflictyou're from, you know, like that
felt just very real and rootedin real life yeah, proto is
(31:33):
idealistic, mary is practical,which is so funny.
Kritter (31:36):
Based on where they started, you know, I don't know
They've both changed a lot.
Jessica (31:43):
Then Sam rescuing his gaffer and bringing him over to
the Cotton's house, and thegaffer's biggest complaint being
that they ruined my taters.
Kritter (31:55):
so we know where samwise gets it from, and that
is precious and the fact thatwas it frodo who told the gaffer
like this is one of your, yoursam is like one of the most
famous people in the world, andthe gaffer's like I don't know
about that.
I thought that was nice.
That frodo was like trying totalk him up to his elders.
Jessica (32:14):
Yeah, it was.
It was very sweet the wholeinteraction with the gaffer.
And then the last thing wasthat even Sam's vision in the
mirror had not prepared him forwhat they saw.
And then the reveal that theyhad cut down the party tree.
They had done so much damage tothe Shire as a whole but
(32:35):
cutting down the party tree evenI felt that I know it hurt.
I was like oof that's bad.
Kritter (32:43):
How dare you?
Jessica (32:45):
So, yeah, those are my last thoughts on Chapter 8.
Kritter (32:49):
Okay.
Book 6, chapter 9, the GreyHavens.
This is the final chapter, soit's time to rebuild, but first
things first, it's time torelease the prisoners.
Fredegar bulger, the formermayor, and lobelia sackville
baggins were among theincarcerated, and lobelia seems
(33:13):
changed.
She gave Frodo bag and painedby the loss of her Lotho and
bequeathed him her possessionswhen she died, to help those
whose homes had been taken bythe troubles.
So ultimately did she manage towin you over?
Jessica (33:29):
Yes, but it it burns, precious it stings.
Uh yeah, no, she clearly had achange of heart.
Um, and you're never too old tolearn it's true.
Kritter (33:44):
And whenever she came out of the cells it mentioned
something about how people werelike cheering her on or whatever
, and it made a note to be likeshe wasn't used to being admired
or something like that.
And I was like, oh, that's sosad, like she was unpleasant.
Jessica (34:00):
So yeah, I mean I guess she wouldn't have been admired,
but at the same time and thinkabout what it feels like to walk
in those shoes and be perceivedin that way, and the
interactions.
Yeah, absolutely All of that.
So, yeah, another littleredemption arc.
Kritter (34:16):
Yeah you love to see it , so the oh yeah, go ahead.
Jessica (34:20):
I was going to say the absolute sugar rush I got from
Fred Agar being there.
So I just it threw me.
It was a great way to startthis chapter, right, like this
is the last chapter.
This is hard.
I actually didn't take a lot ofnotes on this chapter.
I think that the denial hadjust set in so strong.
Yeah, it was really hard for meto take notes, but starting
(34:44):
this chapter with Fredegar threwme immediately back to you know
the fellowship and just howconcerned genuinely concerned I
was for poor Fredegar and tohelp, and he got left to you
know what could have been areally, really dire consequence.
(35:09):
So all of that came rushingback when I saw Fredegar's name
on the page and so it was like agenuine, like sugar rush.
Kritter (35:18):
I was like oh, my God there he is.
So the new houses, the brickugly houses, were taken down in
the old rebuilt, and sam took itupon himself to see to the
replanting.
He used the gift from galadrielone kernel of dust for every
tree replanted, and the silvernut to hopefully replace the
(35:42):
party tree which had beensenselessly cut down at
Saruman's order.
As we said, his efforts were aresounding success and the new
party tree was none other than amallorn, one of the finest in
the world and the only one westof the mountains and east of the
sea.
How did this hit for you?
(36:03):
Any standout moments from therebuilding of the shire?
Jessica (36:07):
um, I love the fact that, uh, you know, tolkien took
the time to tell us theevolution of the names that they
were, you know.
So they part of the rebuild waswhat are they going to name it?
Um, and so they just,ultimately they went through a
couple of iterations that are alittle bit more.
They just, ultimately they wentthrough a couple of iterations
that are a little bit more wildor loosey-goosey and ultimately
(36:28):
they settled on New Row.
And just moments like that areso they're authentic to me.
Right, like you go throughsomething that for the Hobbits
it doesn't even need to bequalified, like that was a
traumatic event for thatcommunity.
That was a traumatic event forthat community and part of that
rebuild effort is the naming andthat puts me squarely in my
(36:54):
Hobbit feels, which I love.
Kritter (36:56):
Yeah, what was the?
It's New Row, but then it'sjokingly called Sharky's End,
right, or something like that.
Jessica (37:02):
Yes, that's what they called it.
And I dug it Same.
Kritter (37:07):
Same Good for them.
So quite possibly the mostprecious fact in all of
Tolkien's books.
Sam ends up marrying RosieCotton and they end up moving in
with Frodo at Bag End At.
Jessica (37:22):
Frodo's request.
Kritter (37:29):
At Frodo's request.
Jessica (37:29):
So did you adore this as much as I did?
I did, but I did have like adeep sense of, uh, foreboding
not deep, but like I I did.
I have a little catch in mythroat.
I was like he's establishinghim as his heir, you know, for
whatever that looks like, youknow he's going to be, he's
going to inherit.
This is him setting them off toinherit.
(37:52):
Bag End.
This is him planting the seedsthat he can walk away.
Kritter (37:57):
So that did ping you, so you do notice some things.
Jessica (38:00):
Some things, some things usually weird, traumatic
stuff, but yeah, yeah.
Kritter (38:05):
Well, so another super, unbelievably precious fact
Frodo helps Sam name his firstchild.
They name her Eleanor for thegolden flowers in Lothlorien,
because I guess it's a traditionfor hobbits to name girls after
flowers.
Yeah, that was his suggestion.
So another just such such aprecious fact that I love so
(38:30):
much, I don't know, uh, and thefact that sam was going to call
his first son frodo is also justlike the cutest thing ever.
Jessica (38:37):
and then he comes to frodo so conflicted, like he
wants to do the right thing andand, and frodo's just like.
This is not.
You know, this isn't a problem,just give her a flower name and
you know frodo's not fussedabout this at all.
And I I love that for frodo aswell, because those are the
kinds of quiet, sweet momentsthat he thought he would never
(38:58):
see again yeah, and here it is.
Kritter (39:01):
And here it is.
So frodo wraps up his work onthe red book Bilbo gave him to
finish and he hands it down toSam to finish the last few pages
.
Bilbo had written a fair amount, but Frodo even more.
And the titles that Bilbo hadworkshopped and I'm going to ask
you your favorite included myDiary, my Unexpected Journey
(39:26):
there and back again, and whathappened after.
Adventures of Five Hobbits, thetale of the Great Ring compiled
by Bilbo Baggins from his ownobservations and the accounts of
his friends, and what we did inthe War of the Ring.
Frodo titled the book theDownfall of the Lord of the
Rings and the Return of the King.
The book the downfall of thelord of the rings and the return
(39:48):
of the king, as seen by thelittle people, being the memoirs
of bilbo and frodo at the shire, supplemented by accounts of
their friends and the learningof the wise, together with
extracts from books of lordtranslated by bilbo and
rivendell.
So whose title is the best?
And were there any that youparticularly liked, even if they
weren't practical?
Jessica (40:02):
uh.
So the two that I like the bestare there, and back again.
And what we did after, yeah anduh, the war of the ring one.
I don't have that one memorized.
Those two are my favorite, butI do think that frodo's ultimate
title before the semicolon, uhwithout all of that?
(40:23):
Yes, without all of that, whichI understand.
You know they're, they'redocumenters and you know I, I
get it, I see it, they're mypeople.
Um, but everything before thesemicolon I thought was very
good.
Kritter (40:35):
Well, you know downfall of the lord of the rings.
Yes, the king, yeah, yeah, Ilike it too, and I like how it
ended up being.
You know the title of the book.
So the suggestion here is weare reading something that was
written by Bilbo, frodo and Sam,ultimately Right, which I think
is so nice.
I don't know.
Yeah, it warms my heart.
Jessica (40:58):
So maybe you want to go back to the red book references
and the prologue and kind ofpull that together now.
Kritter (41:04):
True, yeah, in the prologue, and kind of pull that
together now.
True, yeah, I guess now thatwe've gotten its whole journey,
it's the full circle moments,right for sure.
So Sam and Frodo take off for ashort journey under the guise
of Sam seeing Frodo off on atrek to visit Bilbo in Rivendell
.
But when the hobbits encounterElrond, galadriel and Bilbo
while they're still in the Shire, the jig is up.
(41:26):
Sam realizes Frodo is planningto leave, and Frodo's words of
encouragement, when Sam is soobviously dismayed, I thought
were very touching.
His time may come to followFrodo as a fellow ring bearer,
but for now he can be one andwhole with Rosie and Eleanor and
little frodo and even morechildren.
He'll stay mayor as long as hewants, the most famous gardener
(41:49):
in history and as busy and happyas anyone can be.
So tell me, did this make youhappy or sad?
Jessica (41:59):
oh, my god, I bawled so hard.
Um, it made me happy.
I will say, each time we readI'm I'm misting up now Just
thinking about it Each, each ofthese sections that we go to
there, it's like just anotherslight twist of the perspective
for me.
Yeah, I did not realize that itwas.
(42:24):
Or, to me, after reading it,this felt so much more like
Frodo was giving Sam the questto live.
So I don't feel like that wasthe vibe.
It was about saying goodbye wasabout saying goodbye, but in
(42:49):
this instance, reading it, I,what I walked away from it
feeling like was that sam'squest is to is to live and to
tell their story and to pickthat up and carried it on so
that it continues to matter.
Yeah, yeah that's a really hardthing yeah
Kritter (43:07):
sorry no, it's okay.
It's like, I agree, sam was sosad and so torn and you could
tell even before they got to thepoint where, like they were
actually splitting up, right,they were talking about sam
leaving just a little bit forthe shire, like obviously I have
to get back.
You know, I've got rosie, I'vegot the little girl.
I wish I could come with you.
(43:27):
And frodo, kind of, he gives ahint, right, he's like I, we
need you to be whole, like yeah,you're so conflicted, you're so
split in two and and you shouldbe whole, and yeah, and this
was him giving him that.
I guess it was just oh, sofreaking, precious and amazing,
and then heartwarming and sad itwas.
(43:48):
Yeah, breaks your heart, butalso like fills it up again.
It's wild.
Um.
So they arrive at the grayhavens gandalf is there, also
planning to depart, and, lo andbehold, mary and pippin show up,
noting that this time it wasn'tsam that gave frodo away.
Remember sam was the spy.
Yeah, but gandalf himself.
(44:10):
And gandalf gives us anotherone of my favorite lines well,
here at last, dear friends onthe shores of the sea, comes the
end of our fellowship in middleearth.
Go in peace.
And my favorite part, I willnot say do not weep, for not all
tears are an evil.
Jessica (44:29):
So how are you holding up at this point, because I'm as
soon as mary and pippin cameback, it was all over again.
Um, yeah, because obviouslythat would have been the longest
ride home ever For Sam byhimself, yeah, so I thought that
(44:49):
that was incredible Becausethey you know, the three of them
are the ones that are the onesthat lived, the ones that carry
the story forward, and yeah, itwas just more waterworks.
It was good stuff, it was goodstuff, pretty much good stuff.
Kritter (45:08):
We love it.
So the ship sails away, frodoeventually passing beyond a gray
rain curtain turned all tosilver glass and beholding white
shores and beyond them a fargreen country under a swift
sunrise, and Sam, mary andPippin eventually ride back
together in silence.
(45:29):
Mary and Pippin branch off toBuckland and Sam to Bag End,
where dinner and Rosie andEleanor are waiting for them and
he says to end the book.
Well, I'm back, and how is thatfor the ending to the trilogy?
It's fine, I'm not crying it'sfine.
Jessica (45:53):
I don't know what you're talking about.
It was an incredible end.
It was a great way to end, asit should.
Kritter (46:03):
It ends with hope yeah so warm, just because, as it
should, it ends with hope.
Yeah so warm, just a lovelylike.
That's what Sam was lookingforward to the whole time.
Right, he kept thinking of theShire and wrote God, why am I?
It's ridiculous, I know, noteven looking at the book.
Right now I'm looking at anoutline in google drive.
Jessica (46:28):
Come on, really sorry for all the snuffling for our
podcast listeners, I'm realsorry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, Ido think that it's an incredible
way to end the story.
It is the fruition ofeverything that they.
It throws back to a thing thatFrodo says, as he's saying
goodbye, that you know, in orderto preserve this thing,
(46:52):
somebody must give it up, and so, you know, that's that ultimate
sacrifice from Frodo.
Yeah, think of you know aconversation we had in a
different episode about theultimate sacrifice, and was it
enough that they didn't die onthe, on the hills of mordor, or
the, the hills of foothills ofmountain doom?
(47:14):
And I think that it is becauseI think, in terms of ultimate
sacrifice, I I would behard-pressed to find a person
who says this doesn't meet thatrequirement.
Kritter (47:26):
Yeah, unless you're dead inside.
Jessica (47:27):
You might be dead inside.
Kritter (47:30):
I don't know, yeah, and it also ties into one of
Bilbo's titles right there andBack Again, and Sam's back,
right.
Yeah, frodo and Bilbo went ontheir way as ring bearers and
Sam may follow them, but for nowhe's got a life to live, to
carry, to carry on, which wasgreat, yeah.
Jessica (47:58):
So final thoughts before we pick an.
Kritter (48:02):
MVP.
Jessica (48:02):
It was a ride yeah, it was a ride for a story that I
thought I knew inside and out.
Kritter (48:12):
It was a ride and it was worth it, amen.
Okay, so it's fine, we're allfine.
Yes, so we've got a traditionwhere we pick an MVP from the
chapters we've read for eachepisode.
Cue the music, jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (48:35):
So this is actually a little bit harder for me this
one, which sometimes it is whenthere's less action, some of the
lesser plot points, whensometimes there's less action,
some of the lesser plot points Ifeel like for me it has to be a
tie between Mary and Pippin.
(48:56):
So I pick Mary to berepresentative of Mary and
Pippin because I feel like theyvery much stepped up in terms of
mobilizing the Shire and comingup with a plan and leading them
.
Not that Sam and Frodo didn'tparticipate, but I really feel
like Merry and Pippin took thelead in raising the Shire and
defending them and I love thatfor them.
(49:16):
I will say that I had severalheartbeats of pause where I
considered heartbeats of pausewhere I considered picking Sam,
and at least we'll mention himas honorable mention for um.
You know, his quest now beginsas the Herald of the fourth age
and and you know, kind ofcarrying that memory forward so
(49:37):
that it honors and and so that,uh, you know, so that it was all
worth it essentially, uh, so Iwas going to give sam honorable
mention for that, but I think Ihave to stick with, uh, mary
okay, um well, we are on adifferent path here.
Kritter (49:58):
I.
It was tough for me too.
I kind of, because againthere's no like bombshell
dropped moments in this read.
But I am going to give it toFrodo Because while he was like
I don't want to call him a dudduring the fighting, but he
wasn't the battle leader, hewasn't wielding a sword or
whatever.
(50:18):
He was the moral compass of theoperation, which I appreciated,
which I appreciated.
There were also some moments,like earlier in the read, where,
when they were engaging withthe sheriffs and the guardsmen
and stuff like that, he had somelike good thoughts and like
funny lines and stuff like thatwhenever he was challenging them
(50:38):
.
So I appreciated that.
But mainly it's for hiscompassion for, for his enemies,
for sam, um, and yeah, justsome of the stuff that he his
encouragement to sam, hisinvitation for him to move, for
them to move in him declaringsam his heir, him talking sam up
(51:01):
to the gaffer.
There were so many moments thatI just like he really warmed my
heart and gave me hope and, andso I think of all the people.
He didn't do the best in thefighting, but he had another
role and I think he played itreally well.
Jessica (51:19):
Excellent, okay, so crazy.
That's it for this book.
As we said, we're going toprobably each of us individually
look at some appendices, but weare calling this a wrap on
season four, so we would like toinvite you to please catch our
season four wrap party stream onAugust 29th at 8 pm Central on
(51:45):
but Are there Dragons YouTube.
I would say once again, thankyou so much for tuning in to
episode eight of season four ofbut Are there Dragons, brought
to you by your hosts, jessicaSedai and Critter XD.
Don't forget to follow us onbut Are there Dragons on YouTube
(52:05):
, instagram and TikTok and butDragons Pod, just one T on X.
You can find us on social mediaas CritterXD and Shelf
Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We are continuing to workshopnew catchphrases for season four
, so let us know on social mediahow you feel about this last
(52:27):
one.
In the immortal words ofgandalf go in peace.
I will not say do not weep, fornot all tears are an evil bye.
Thank you.
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