Ports, Policy, and People: A Conversation with Carl Bentzel (NAWE)

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Today's guest leads an organization that touches the
very heart of how U.S.
ports work.
The National Association ofWaterfront Employees, NAWI,
represents America's marineterminal operators and stabors.
These are the companiesresponsible for moving cargo on
and off ships, keepingcontainers flowing through
ports, and providing thousandsof waterfront jobs in coastal
communities.
And at a time when U.S.

(00:21):
ports face pressure tomodernize, stay competitive
globally, and adapt to newchallenges, NAUI is right at the
center of those conversations.
Leading Nowie now is someoneyou'll recognize from his time
of the Federal MaritimeCommission.
Carl Bensell was appointed FMCCommissioner in 2019 and served
through 2024, helping the agencynavigate the pandemic era supply

(00:41):
chain crisis.
Before that, he spent more thana decade on Capitol Hill with
both the House Merchant Marineand Fisheries Committee and the
Senate Commerce Committeeworking on major maritime laws
like the Oceanship Reform Act of1998, ASRA number one, and the
Maritime Transportation SecurityAct after 9-11.
And at the FMC, he spearheadedthe Maritime Transportation Data
Initiative, or MTDI, to improvesupply chain data transparency.

(01:05):
Now Carl is bringing all of thatexperience into his new role as
executive director of NAWI.
And before we dive in, a bigthank you to NAWI for supporting
today's episode of By Land andBy Sea.
So, Carl, welcome to the show.
Welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Hello, Lauren.
It's great to see you again.
It's uh always been a pleasureworking with you on issues in
Washington, D.C.
and talking about them on yourpodcast.
So I enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
Well, thanks so much for being back here with us.
We we always enjoy theconversation.
So before we get started, let'sstart with the basics, right?
I always like to make sure thatour listeners are all on the
same page.
So for those who may not knowNowie, who are your members?
What do they do?
Why are waterfront employers soessential to the supply chain?
Kind of take us through theorganization.

SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Sure.
Our organization is a reallyimportant industry.
I think we're probablyundervalued and under
missappreciated, but we'revitally important to the
economic stability of our nationand our welfare.
We're the the people that workand man and operate terminals at
ports.

(02:09):
So we are the port authority isfor the most part, while there
are ports that operate alandlord, and we have terminals
with long-term leases to operateand man the facilities and
transfer cargo into theinterior.
So our members handle over 90%of our containerized cargoes

(02:30):
that come into the country.
So this the nation's supplychain, essentially.
Probably over a majority of thebrake bulk cargo that comes in,
so some of the uh larger uhcommodities, and almost all of
the passengers that go out oncruise ships are uh staffed by
our terminals.
So really a critically importantindustry to our nation.

(02:51):
Uh during the pandemic, we wereworking on overdrive, but if we
hadn't been working, it's myview that the economy would have
uh come to a standstill.
So a very important industry,sometimes out of the limelight,
because it's refined to the bigport uh complexes through
through through the UnitedStates.
We work closely with our portauthorities and with uh trucking

(03:14):
lines, trucking comp uh truckingcompanies and railroads and
BCOs, and of course ourcustomers, the steamship lines.

SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
That's right.
You know, and one thing that Ithink people don't necessarily
understand about ports is therereally are kind of two different
kinds of ports in one regard,operating ports and landlord
ports.
And so, right, when you talkabout the terminals, that's
usually when you're talkingabout the landlord ports, where
it might be the city or thestate who is owns the the port
itself, but then it's theterminal who is operating and

(03:45):
who's moving the the goodsactually and actually the tenant
at that port.

SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, no, no, it's uh people will sort of
amalgamate them.
For the most part, most of theuh terminal operations are
managed by private sectorcompanies.
Uh Maui also represents theoperating ports.
Uh so the ports of Georgia PortsAuthority, Houston, uh, Virginia
were are where we proudlyrepresent their interests.

(04:12):
So we try to focus onoperational issues related to
any movement of cargo throughports.
And the the port authoritiesthat that are not operating
ports we work closely withbecause they're working on
making sure the channels aredeep enough and the surrounding
infrastructures adequate.
But we're on the business ofmoving cargo through our ports
as a private sector entity or anoperating port for the most

(04:35):
part.
And so we have uh independent,purely independent terminals
owned in the United States.
We have uh steamship linecompanies that have uh terminal
operations, and we have uhoperating port authorities in
our uh in our association.
We also uh are uh represent theuh operating associations that

(04:55):
manage the contracts, theemployment contracts, and uh and
work on safety issues throughour sister association, the
National Safety, uh MaritimeSafety Association.
So we pretty much cover anythingthat has to do with how you move
cargo through ports.

SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
That's great.
What a what a fantasticassociation.
So you yourself, you've been aregulator, obviously working at
the FMC, you've been a CapitolHill staffer, and now you're
stepping back into an advocacyrole.
So, what made you want to leadNowie at this moment?
Why was this the time and andwhy did Nowie bring you in?
Why was this the next step foryou?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
Well, I had uh you missed one step in the in the in
the lead up.
Actually, after I left CapitolHill, I became an advocate,
private sector advocate, alobbyist, and uh represented
Nowie as their their person onCapitol Hill for a number of
years before I went uh back tothe uh Federal Maritime
Commission.

SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Oh, I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was I was very familiarwith what they were doing and
working on.
Uh I really knew the value ofthe industry.
Uh I I truly believe thatthey're undervalued.
And so I saw this as a greatopportunity to take advantage
after one tenure as acommissioner at the FMC of the

(06:14):
pandemic, rising acknowledgementof the importance of maritime
shipping as an economic driverin our nation, and uh and
thought that there was uhopportunity for growth and
expansion.
Uh and and I'd like to positionthis association as the
preeminent voice on maritimepolicy in Washington.

SPEAKER_01 (06:35):
You know, and that's such an important point, saying
that prior to the pandemic, wereally didn't have like society
understanding.
I mean, certainly that's thebiggest thing, right?
People don't understand that 90%of everything moves by ocean
transit, right?
That's everything we touch, eat,consume, everything around you.
But during the pandemic itself,actually, maritime workforce
wasn't even included as theessential employee listing.

(06:56):
That was quickly corrected, butnot fast enough for how
essential maritime workforce andthe maritime system was to how
we were getting our PPE.

SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
The US government passed legislation to help the
transit and aviation industriesduring the pandemic that
included$120 billion to paypeople who essentially were out
of business during the pandemic.
And so they went home for twoyears.
And and that was because wecouldn't do air travel and we

(07:30):
couldn't go to work and we wereworking from home.
At that same time, uh the uh theuh industry uh maritime industry
was at all-time levels of of uhof cargo movement.
And so it really was uh one ofthese uh examples of uh what

(07:51):
truly is essential.
And so so the fact was that thatsame in that same legislation, I
think they gave four milliondollars to the maritime
administration for certainfunctions, uh, but the maritime
industry was uh neglected and infact uh drove the economic uh
stability of the nation bydelivering all of all of that

(08:12):
cargo.
And and I do want to to make thepoint that this is not just my
members, but it's the theworkforce, the ILA and the ILWU,
the railroad workers that didthe intermodal railroad trains,
the the truckers, thewarehousing uh companies that
took in cargo.
So we all worked through thepandemic every day.

(08:34):
And and it was it was hard.
So it is a critically importantindustry.
I can't emphasize enough.
While I was at the FMC as acommissioner, I was having CEOs
come in and tell me that theywere losing 50 or 15 to 20
percent of their businessopportunity because they
couldn't get uh commodities andand things that they needed, uh

(08:57):
products, uh manufactured goodsthat were necessary for
production of their products.
And so I I learned firsthand howessential the cargo movement uh
system is uh to uh to ournation.
And and and it gave me a anappreciation of what the
terminal industry did.

(09:17):
And that is really what led meinto to going over to Naui.
And I had a sixth sense thatbeing in the government may be
difficult this term with thisadministration.
And so I'm really happy to bewhere I am.

SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Yeah, that's great.
Well, and excuse me, like yousaid, you were a commissioner
during these extraordinary timesat the pandemic uh at the FMC
during the pandemic, during thisheightened cargo congestion,
right?
I mean, it wasn't, it was, itwas the people, we weren't sure
which way it was going to go,but the people were actually
online shopping, they werebuying larger, bulkier items,
right?

(09:52):
We had a lot of couches, we hada lot of furniture, we had, you
know, rugs and desks and tablesand everything, right?
It's the same 20-foot or 40-footbox that ships all of this.
And so the larger the item, themore pressed some of that
congestion can become.
We had Osra 22 come about whileyou were at the FMC.
So, what are some of the lessonsthat you're carrying forward

(10:12):
from your time at the FMC intonow your your role at NAUE?

SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
So, you know, I think uh transportation is as a
component of the landed cost ofa product is very small.
You know, if you have acontainer of Levi's genes that
you're selling for$100 a pair,you can get a lot of Levi's
genes in that in that container.
And and uh you can retail themat uh far more than the$4,000

(10:42):
price of the transport.
You might not even be even beable to quantify how much that
costs.
But congestion or cessation ofservice or uh or delays in that
is critically connected to theoverall price of the product and
and getting vital commoditiesin.
I remember having to give uh uhcalls to port authorities,

(11:06):
terminal authorities, uhshipping lines about getting
respirators in because they werea lower value commodity product,
vis-a-vis, and that's healthcareproducts generally, uh certain
retail goods.
So when the steamship lines werenegotiating their contracts,
they were trying to addresstheir best contracts, which

(11:27):
wasn't always in the bestinterest of the nation.
And so so I think uh the thelesson that I learned is we're
so important to the nation thatwe need to be maintained to
avoid those situations where wecan critically impact the the
welfare of uh of the UnitedStates by not being able to

(11:48):
provide the services that thenation relies on.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Well, and I think that that's also a testament to
kind of the linchpin nature ofthe ports, right?
They are so essential to theeverything.
They are the connector betweenthe ports that are the goods
that are coming from abroad andand getting to the American
people, and and vice versa.
You know, if we have somethingto sell, this is how it goes out
to market.

(12:11):
So, you know, the the ports andthe terminals and and that that
piece, right?
I mean, that's kind of what thewhole podcast by land and by sea
is all about is this connectionbetween the surface
transportation and the oceantransportation and how
critically important it is thateverybody understands the value
and the importance of both.

SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
It's been that way since the IDLX left the
terminal, and I think it was1958 in Newark, New Jersey, and
and delivered cargo on an oldoil tanker on a and and
established uh containerizationintermodalization.
I think it may have even beenmore important than the internet
because it opened the door forthe importation of and the

(12:55):
outsourcing of all sorts of uhcommodities and movements that
we benefit now as consumers.
You can sit at your computer andgo on Amazon and order as much
as you want to order and hit asmany buttons and get as
responsive a service on thecommunications uh side of the
equation.

(13:15):
But ultimately, if the if thatcargo is not delivered to your
door, it's irrelevant.
And so so really that is theunderpinning of our of the our
economic uh boominternationally.
And uh and and it was developedin the United States.
Uh it was U.S.
shipping companies thatdeveloped intermodalism, uh, I

(13:36):
think.
The Sealand Service was thecompany that established the
first intermodal containershipping services, American
President Lines, now part of uhCMA, CGM, developed double stack
rain rail services to facilitatea uh a 200% better system of uh

(13:57):
of moving intermodal cargo intothe interiors.
Right now, that at anyparticular day, more than 50% of
the cargo going through the 11terminals in LA Long Beach goes
on either on dock rail that mymembers pay for, or on uh
intermodal rail services toChicago, Dallas, points in the

(14:19):
interior, Memphis.
Uh and and that's the same withwith all other U.S.
ports and terminals.
Uh so it's a critically uhimportant technology that seems
so simple, yet has changedreally the fabric of uh of the
world's economy.

SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
So I think that that's a really important point
there.
When you were talking about theintermodalism, right?
That's the the boxes that we'retalking about.
That's where you have a changefrom where it was brake bulk or
bulk or just basically loosegoods that you're you're kind of
trying to pack together to moreof a systematic, we have the
20-foot equivalent unit, this isthe actual box that goes on the
ship, or the 40-foot equivalentunit.

(14:58):
And often, you know, just tomake sure that we're all on the
same page, that's how we kind ofsay how big a vessel is.
It's 10,000 TEUs, and that'swhat they're talking about is
10,000 of those 20-footequivalent boxes.
But the value, as you justpointed out, was now we could
just take it off the ship andput it on a rail car.
And and like you said, adouble-stacked rail car means

(15:19):
even more goods can get into theinside of the US and and go to
you know, intermodal hubs or oronto a truck, even.
What I don't want my listenersto confuse here, and I think
that most of them probably havethis straight, is that the
trucks that you see on the roadthat don't look like they come
apart, right?
Just the regular trucks, thoseare 53 foot for the most part.

(15:39):
But the ones that we're talkingabout, the boxes that we're
talking about here are actuallyliterally, they look like cargo
container boxes.
You'll you'll note them when yousee them.
And they're sitting on achassis, which has been part of
conversation for quite a while,chassis availability, but that's
what it is.
It's a chassis, it's the wheels,so it's a base with wheels, and
then the box just sits right ontop.
Such a simple concept, but suchan important pivotal moment.

(16:03):
And it was created by MalcolmMcLean, who was a trucker.
He was just trying to figure outan easier, faster way of doing
this.
You know, it's it's one of thoseyou're looking sitting there
looking there, and you're like,there's gotta be an easier way
of doing this.

SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
You know, it's uh it's amazing, but it's also
complex.
You know, the the terminals arethe hub of where and how we
deliver intermodal cargo.
We interface with ocean shippingcompanies.
They're our customers.
Uh sometimes they have cargothat's gonna go on a railroad.
Uh, sometimes it goes on our ownrail system of delivery.

(16:38):
We spend an immense amount ofmoney on billions of dollars on
infrastructure for railroads atour terminals on Dock Rail, and
we manage the rail operations,and then we give them in turn to
the intermotor rail companies.
Uh so uh railroad policy,trucking policy, they all impact

(16:59):
our uh our industry because wewe handle, as you say, chassis
and the availability of chassis.
And if they don't have wheels,they don't usually come into our
terminal.
And if they don't come into ourterminal, we're gonna get
congestion.
So it's uh intricate ballet, andhopefully one of the ballerinas
is not thrown to the side uh andmissed in a catch because that

(17:21):
will uh dilute the the ballet.
And uh so so it is uh incrediblycomp complex, but all of these
industries affect terminaloperations.
So if it's slow on the railside, uh that 60% of the cargo
coming in from LA Long Beach isslowed down.
And so they may say, well, theterminal is really moving slow,

(17:44):
and it's moving slow becausebeneath the terminal there are
problems, or coming into theterminal, there are problems.
So we have to work very closelywith the industries that we work
at.
We're connected together.
We're all almost the only uh apart of the transportation chain
that is a hub that connects toeverybody.

(18:04):
Everyone might have interfacewith one or the other, but we we
uh connect to everyone.
And that's why I really believethat the uh our industry,
terminal industry is uh uhcritically important.
And uh so we're looking at youknow policies, railroad
policies, this merger, Union uhPacific CSX merger, and which

(18:25):
could create the first you knowtranscontinental railroad that
that could do intermodal cargoboth sides.
It's something that we're gonnalook at very closely because it
impacts all of the port rangesand the terminals uh that serve
those ports uh in the UnitedStates.

SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
You know, and I I love that analogy.
I uh the the ballet dance,right?
It is a dance, and it's not justa dance among the ports and
terminals, it's a dancethroughout the entire everything
that touches it, which that'sthe motor carriers, that's the
truckers, right?
That's the drage providers,that's the rail, that's that's
the everybody who's in andaround the port has a piece of
that dance.
Commissioner Dyes often calls italso an ecosystem, right?

(19:04):
It's you always say supplychain, the the world's always
said supply chain links orsupply chain, but it really is
supply chain ecosystem or supplychain dance.
I I think that I like that evenbetter.
But but so there are so manycomponents to it.
There are so many opportunitiesfor for you know jumping in and
trying to find areas that we canimprove.

(19:26):
You mentioned rail being onethat you're watching and and
figuring out how that can bestkind of help the the free flow
of goods, right?
Because it's all about reallythe fluidity of movement.
Because as you said, when thingsget gummed up, it doesn't just
stop one little piece, it canthrow off the whole dance, it
can throw off the wholeecosystem.
And sometimes we saw thatwhether it was chassis
unavailability, whether it wasempty return or non-return, you

(19:49):
know, it's it's all workingtogether.
And if one little piece gets alittle too over overworked or or
you know, it's not quiteavailable for the rest of the
system to keep moving, thatbecomes a problem for the entire
system.
So all of that said, what youexperienced during your time at
the FMC, you're coming intoNowie Now with fresh eyes.
What are some of your prioritiesthat are are during your your

(20:13):
first year here, or you'realmost through your first year?
But uh, what will you continueinto year two and year three as
your key tenants?
I mean, is it infrastructuremodernization?
Is it smart regulations thatsupport the productivity?
Is it where are you going to befocusing a lot of your time to
move nowe forward?

SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Well, it's a little bit of everything, you know, uh
as it always is.
We've got to cover everythingfor our industry, and that's
what we we will do.
But uh I I think clearly thepresident's executive order on
maritime industrial baseredevelopment and the uh USTR
actions on uh on uh shipping andand also uh on container crane

(20:54):
equipment and containers, thosetwo actions are being considered
to impose penalties as a resultof Chinese market dominance.
The president's executive orderis a broader order that is very
broad.
It's probably it's probably thebiggest maritime pronouncement
in decades, but the commitmentto to rebuild our industrial

(21:17):
base, 98 percent of all marinecontainers are built in China at
subsidized government-controlledfacilities.
Over well over 60 percent of theworld's fleet is built in in
China with subsidizedgovernment-controlled
facilities.
And 96 percent of theship-to-shore cranes that are

(21:38):
used in moving cargo, the bigcranes that we use large yard
equipment, less with uh largeyard uh equipment, but but 96
percent of the ship-to-shorecranes are are built in China.
So that finding has uh has uhcreated issues on how the
government is going to respondto the trade domination, and and

(21:59):
there's gonna be penalties thatwill be imposed.
So we're we're watching veryclosely and uh working on issues
uh to try to address what couldoccur if someone told a car
manufacturer that a vital uh setof equipment that they use in
the production of manufacturingcars that 96 percent of that uh

(22:23):
market share was going to betaken out of utilization, it
would have been it would be ahorrific uh event.
And that's what we're facing uhhere in the United States
potentially with penalties.
And the penalties uh werejustified legally uh through the
USTR proceeding.
Uh so uh we're working with theadministration to get support

(22:45):
for uh waivers to allow existingequipment to come in, some
transition.
We just cannot move from amarket that is is so dominant
and away from that market forvital equipment without
assistance.
So we've been working with theWhite House, with the
administration, with Congress totry to develop some policies to

(23:09):
mitigate uh some of these costs.
So we'd in a perfect world, wewould get some time uh to
address this, get our equipmentin.
Some of this stuff was orderedwell before the administration,
even uh, and then this is uhhundreds of millions of dollars
of equipment.
Uh these uh an order ofcontainer cranes might be$60

(23:29):
million coming in.
And we we have you know 25, 40pieces of major equipment coming
in every year that is incrediblyefficient and productive in
moving cargo.
So we need to get uh support forsome programs to help uh
mitigate the challenge of of uhof addressing a new market uh

(23:51):
situation.
And and I I think my members areare in general support of
developing the maritimeindustrial base or part of the
maritime network.
We use many of the employeesthat steamship companies do, uh,
and we work with the intermodalindustry as well.
And so developing a a better USsystem of employees and and and

(24:20):
uh companies that can supply ourcompanies and the movement of
cargo is in our best interest.
Ultimately, it's really how dowe get there?
And and and and you can't gofrom zero to ninety in without
some some special technologies.
And so that's what we're tryingto do.

SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yeah, and I think that's right.
You had actually raised thatalarm with one of your reports
at the FMC, right?
The the China report oncontainer building and chassis
building.
And so certainly that was uh aneye-opening, although probably
come confirming what we what weassumed, but you know, the the
very high percentages of what isbuilt in China of the containers

(25:00):
and the chassis and these veryimportant pieces of equipment
that are part of the overallchain.
But I think that that's a reallyimportant note that you made in
that we need a runway, right?
I mean, we we need to make surethat there isn't going to be
significant debilitatingdisruptions.
For the most part, it seemspeople are on board, yes, let's
reshore that's maritimeindustrial base, let's get it
kind of back going to the US,but we need a runway because we

(25:23):
can't just flip that switch,right?
We're not ready to start makingall those things tomorrow, but
we can get there.
But as you're saying, we'rewe're gonna need to get there
quickly.
But what is what does that mean,right?
What's the timeline for that?
And I think that's where thatthat's where we we we're we're
still working all that out.
And I'm happy that you're partof those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
Well, it's uh it's a critical, uh, critical issue how
we transition to this.
I mean, we face as an industrychallenges with tariffs in
general.
We're relatively agnostic uhabout who comes into the port,
so we want as much cargo to comein and and and enter the system
and move through our systemefficiently and expand.

(26:03):
And it's a growth market.
We're not uh, you know, if youlook at it, there's some dips
and stuff, but we are uhindustries that have largely
historically been situated inareas where we're surrounded by
population growth.
You know, if you think about it,every port was a port first,

(26:24):
then there was a little townthere, and then there was a
bigger town, and then there wasa municipality, and then there
was an urban center, and thenthere was urban sprawl.
And how do you continue to takevolume growth and uh uh and
larger ships coming in uh uh onthe other side and address that?

(26:45):
How do you expand that?
How do you get in efficientcargo moving systems to uh uh to
move cargo through your complexmore uh rapidly to grow to
continue to grow business?
So we're we're we're a growingindustry.
I have no doubt that we willcontinue to grow.
Our question is uh what can wedo in our sort of confined

(27:07):
footprint to address that goingforward?
The amount of new greenfieldsite ports in the United States
can be uh counted on one hand.
And uh and uh when I startedworking uh on Capitol Hill, I'm
not even gonna go back how farit was, but I did a hearing on

(27:28):
the FMC uh commission, thecommission authorization bill,
and I think there were sixmillion TEUs.
I guess I'll have to tell you itwas 1990.
Uh and uh and in 1990 there weresix million TEUs in commerce.
I think we're at about 38million TEUs of of cargo that
are moved here.
So that is over 600 percentincreases uh in that time frame.

(27:52):
Uh so we're moving up and andwe'll continue to move up.
Will we be able to do it?
And and uh we have pressures onthe for instance on the West
Coast, we have intense pressuresuh to decarbonize, to reduce
emissions, and uh and we may notbe able to operate the same way

(28:15):
if we don't address those.
So we have huge challenges onhow we're gonna address local uh
and national and internationaluh requirements on health and
welfare and still accommodatethe the need to move enhanced
cargo.

SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
Yeah, I think that's right too.
I mean, I think that one thingthat happened during COVID is
everybody saw the billions ofdollars of profits that were
happening in the industry, butthat's not what is normal for
this industry.
This is an industry that reallyis it has some pretty small
margins in in 2016.
We saw Hanjin go bankrupt.
I mean, these were too large tofail, right?

(28:55):
That I think that the perceptionof society waking up to the
ocean shipping system was alittle bit was great.
One thing great that that theindustry, that the society kind
of saw the value and importanceof the ocean shipping side of
things.
But on the other hand, theymight have gotten a little
skewed view of it.
And so while it's important tocontinue to push forward for all

(29:16):
sorts of different, you werementioning environmental
standards or different kinds ofregulations that might be
associated with supports orterminals or ocean carriers,
it's also those are going to becosts that factor in.
And any cost that happens ontothe supply chain could be a cost
that ends up in the consumer'spocket too.
So as with everything, it'simportant to kind of balance it

(29:36):
all out and make sure that youknow things continue to move
freely and and flow because thatis how we get 90% of everything.
Perhaps if there's traderebalances, you know, who knows
what we're gonna see in the nextfive, 10, 15 years, maybe that
90% will go down in number.
But as of right now, we'rerelying on 90% of everything
coming through ocean shippingand the ports and terminals.

(29:57):
And so, you know, kind ofprioritizing the expediency.
The movement while alsobalancing some of the the other
concerns generally.

SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
You know, I uh learned so much when I was a
commissioner about that thatdependence on overseas shipping,
and it would be a certaincommodity that I never knew
existed that was vitallyimportant for clean drinking
water.
Uh and I did get calls from theupper uh Midwest about
potentially having to close downfacilities because they wouldn't

(30:27):
have uh certain types ofchemicals that are additives to
purify water.
And I thought, wow, that'spretty important.
I remember talking to theconstruction industry that
builds large skyscrapers in NewYork.
They said, listen, every singletime we build a building, it's a
new contract.
It's uh you don't build the sameskyscraper anyplace.

(30:48):
Uh so we set up a new supplychain.
There's probably 60 companiesthat we work with, and and then
though those companies have 60people that they work with.
And they need to get eachproduct in sequence installed in
that building to get it builtproductively, efficiently.

(31:08):
Uh, but the dependence of ournation, both on retail, where
we're unfortunately areimporting uh much more than we
manufacture and on manufacturehere in the United States,
relies on ocean shipping andeven food products, and then and
uh just it's just incredible,you know, how much and how many

(31:30):
products are used andincorporated into our existence.
But I imagine that if you gothrough a uh a room in in your
house, you would find out thatso much of it had come from
someplace else and then beenbeen incorporated through
shipping.
Aviation uh services forinternational shipping are uh

(31:53):
very expensive, and you can onlyuse them really for uh low uh
high value commodities that uhthat can be uh that can uh uh
adapt to the cat uh the cost ofthat.
And and so you're reliant onocean shipping for pretty much
the the basic uh subsistence ofour nation.

SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
That's right.
You know, and one thing that Iwas really interested to learn
for for even meat imports.
So even if we were to get up toa hundred percent U.S.
Texas rancher, you know, uh, ofthe meat world, the meat that we
bring in and imports is isnecessary to make a hamburger
because the imports have aleaner fat number than than the
fatty cows that I guess we havehere in the U.S.

(32:36):
And so sometimes it it's notjust a one or the other, but
it's a both.
And so even if we were to tradebalance, we're gonna still need
things coming into this countryto help supplement or support
our manufacturing, like you'resaying.

SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
Yeah, that's uh true.
I mean, look at the fresh fruitmarkets, the vegetables markets.
We in wintertime we're notgrowing anything.
Uh, and so most of thoseproducts are coming from the
southern hemisphere, and so itshifts.
And so there's an immense uhamount of uh reefer cargo that
comes uh from a romance.
Same with fisheries products.

(33:10):
I I spent a lot of time withFisheries Institute and and and
industries that rely on certainproducts that we commonly use
are accessible at restaurantsand uh and at grocery stores,
but they might not be uh capableof being uh produced or man or

(33:30):
resourced in in the UnitedStates waters uh or Canadian
waters.
So every you know everyindustry, and it might not be
the the product itself, it maybe the processing or the
packaging.
Or the uh I was talking uh tothe wine and spirits folks, and
they were having immenseproblems getting bottles and

(33:51):
corks uh transported during thepandemics, the pandemic, uh, and
you can't transport wine withoutsome sort of stoppage uh system.
And so uh they lost opportunityuh and uh and reduced sales.
So it is uh critically uhimportant to our nation.

SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
You know, it's it's funny that you mentioned that
because I was during thepandemic, I was shopping at
Trader Joe's and they said, youknow, we're not gonna have the
salad dressing in for a whilebecause they're stuck offshore
on a barge off of LA.
And I was like, it's notentirely accurate, but I love
that you just told me that.
You know, it's just it was justthe cashier explaining to me how
the supply chain worked and howthey couldn't get in the bottles

(34:34):
for the the dressing.
It was just a you know, kind ofa full circle.
All right, society's getting itmoment.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
No, I I worked on Capitol Hill on issues related
to oil oil spill liability foredible oils for a number of
years.
So I can tell you that there's alot of salad dressing floating
around out there uh on chips.

SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
Well, so part of all of this discussion too is is
then the the reliability, thethe data dissemination, the this
was an initiative that you hadat the FMC, your maritime
transportation data initiative,because there is fragmentation
of data across the chain, right?
It can be a little bit difficultto get that transparency, but

(35:16):
that was something that youwanted to hit.
What was what were some of thepain points of data
dissemination under thismaritime transportation data
initiative?
So, what did it reveal, and howdo you kind of plan to advance
that work here at Nowie?

SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
So, you know, it's not the most integral issue that
faces my industry, but we sufferfor lack of bad good data.
Uh for instance, right now,there's a lot of blank sailings
and ships are uh ship servicesare being canceled.
And we are not getting adequateinformation about these to try

(35:51):
to help us adjust.
Carriers were reluctant.
Uh there's all sorts ofinformation that's out there.
And so there's not a question ofaccess to information.
You can see where a ship is.
What you're not getting isoperational information about uh
when it intends to be landed andand how you could fit it into

(36:14):
your system to forecast need andso uh and such.
So at the FMC, uh I proposedthat that uh information be made
transparent and that it bereal-time information that
included operationalinformation.
And and that was for theterminals as well.
And we we have an obligation,for instance, to provide good

(36:37):
information about when our gatesare going to be open and closed
and what our services arerestrictions.
And so our my industry, theterminal industry, uh does
suffer for lack of uh of uh goodinformation.
And it's it's ad hoc.
There's some carriers that arethat are uh better than others.
But in this day and age, weshould be able to transmit

(37:00):
information.
These are huge pieces ofequipment.
It's not like rocket science toto to see where they are.
Uh what needs to occur is thatinformation needs to be provided
to the public so they know whenthey're going to get there, what
the plan is for if you got ontoan airplane and you didn't have
any ETA, people would be upsetbecause they're trying to plan

(37:25):
connecting flights and make surethey're going to get there on
time and and monitoring it.
But cargo does not vote and doesnot talk.
And so I I I would I would saythe FMC should take up those
recommendations, uh, look atthem again, because they are
gonna cost us billions ofdollars.

(37:45):
And so our my industry wouldlike to receive better
information.
And even while therecommendations required us to
be transparent on ouroperations, we're committed to
do that in the interests ofbusiness.
So it's just common sense,frankly, and and it's not
creating a whole new system.

(38:06):
It's just there should be amandate that they provide us,
estimated arrivals and certainstandards of data that could be
made publicly accessible.
So all this technology,technology is reliant on data
and data input.
And if the data is not there,you can have the best technology
in the world, but it doesn'tmatter because it doesn't have

(38:27):
that element that you need touse to make quantifiable
decisions.
And so hopefully, as time goeson, we'll uh recognize the value
of doing something like that.
It will help our industryultimately if we can.
I mean, I I don't know how manyuh places in the world where you
can have a cancellation and andfind out that it was canceled

(38:49):
six weeks before and and not betold of that cancellation.

SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Well, and I think that's so right, too.
One of the other points that youmade was that just speaking the
same language, right?
Having the data come come in avery consistent package.
And with your MTDI, one of thebest practices that you pointed
out was the Digital ContainerShipping Association, their
standards.
And there's been actually a lotof advancement with DCSA
adoption across the industry,but it's it's got to be more,

(39:16):
right?
It's got to be more of thatvisibility, more of that
consistency.
And and I think that we're we'regetting there certainly, but we
all need to kind of speak thesame language.
It's the same way that creditcards can be accepted around the
world because of Swift.
Uh, you know, I think DCSA willwill help us get there at least
for that backend side of things,for for the the speaking the
same language side of things.

SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
So they developed the standards we uh incorporated
into the into the MTDIrecommendations.
So everyone's agreed on prettymuch the standards.
It's not an issue of of that.
It's just uh not all of theinformation to impose uh the
value proposition for the datahas been implemented, and that's

(39:59):
real-time information,operational uh changes.

SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, let's change gears alittle bit here.
I want to make sure that we'restill talking about labor and
workforce.
So obviously, like we said,ports are powered by people.
How does now we engage on laborand workforce, safety today,
training for tomorrow?
How does that all work intoeverything that you do?
It's a obviously integral piece.

SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
Yeah, sure.
Uh I'm uh the president of aNational Association of
Waterfront Employers,representing the folks we talked
about earlier.
We're also I'm the executivedirector of what's the National
Maritime Safety Association.
That's many of the samecompanies and their personnel
that are engaged in operationalissues related to the safety and

(40:40):
welfare of the workforce.
We work continually with ourlongshoremen uh employees to
make sure we have the safestwork and working environment
that we we we have.
We we we we work through thecollective bargaining agreement
to come to agreements on how toadopt new tech technology.

(41:03):
That that is probably gonna bethe challenge in the future.
I hate even to bring up or talkabout the issue of automation
because I don't think anyonereally feels comfortable with
automation.
Uh but but we need to certainlyto get more equipment that will
allow us to maximizeproductivity and uh and generate
more growth at ports.

(41:23):
And so we'll we'll work with ourlongshoremen on that.
And really, if if you if youlook during the pandemic, they
were the people that were doingthe work of delivering cargo and
and we work with them and we wemanage them.
And so safety is a criticallyimportant issue.
I spend a fair amount of my timelearning from my industry on on

(41:46):
what what these issues are, uh,and we have to work with our uh
with uh with our labor unions tomake sure that's done the right
way and that we can continue tomove forward to address growth,
expansion, uh, and make surethat we can serve the the

(42:07):
shipping public the the way weneed to.
So it's a continual uh uhchallenge, but I really believe
that it could be the mostimportant thing that we do to
make sure that that we cancontinue to grow and expand as
an industry and do it in a safe,efficient way.
And uh like I said, there'simmense challenges.

(42:29):
You can't build something else.
No one's gonna allow us in LAwhere you have so many people to
build a new major complex there.
So we really have to work to getthe uh maximize the use use uh
uh of uh the facilities that wehave and and grow it.
And so so that's why we you knowwe're challenged with the

(42:51):
administration's uh tradepolicies on STS cranes.
Uh those would be the cranes, uhthe next generation cranes that
would will allow us to toaccommodate the trade growth, to
maximize the the use of of ourfacilities.
You know, frankly, we're gonnaneed people to always work.
And I anticipate that there willbe growth at all of our uh

(43:14):
terminals in in employment.
It's just how do we get there?
And so that's that's thechallenge.
So we're working on that.
You know, this is my membersthemselves, but we're supporting
them on policies to make surethat that that can happen.

SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
And I I think that that's great.
And that leads me into kind ofmy next question here is the US
R is US ports are facing globalcompetition.
And so talking about the ship toshore cranes, right?
We're gonna have to get the thecargo off of the vessel onto the
port.
And and the fastest we can dothat, right, the better we can
do that.
But are there any other gaps?
Or or you know, now we I'm sureis making the case for more

(43:52):
investment in the ports and inthe terminals and the urgent
need for all of that.
What are some of those argumentsthat you're making beyond just
shift to shore, but but justmaking it so that the the ports
and terminals are supported?

SPEAKER_00 (44:03):
Yeah, I we're we are concerned.
I represent U.S.
marine terminal operations.
So I I work with my friends fromthe north and south on safety
issues and it uh but oncompetitive issues, I'm firmly
on the side of U.S.
based entities.
We have suffered a little bit asa result of policies that that

(44:27):
impose financial burdens on us,for instance, uh penalties on
Chinese ships uh as a result ofuh of uh the US TR
determination.
Is that going to erode uh tradein the northern tiers, uh both
uh Massport and New York and theuh Pacific Northwest Seaport

(44:48):
Alliance, uh Seattle, Tacoma,and and also uh probably uh
Oakland and LA.
And it could.
And so we've uh we've suggestedthat the same sort of penalties
be imposed on cargo that's beingtransshipped through uh Mexican
uh or uh Canadian ports.
And so we believe that anypenalties that our government is

(45:11):
imposing on our uh our industrythat impact them should be
imposed on something going northor south to avoid that that very
fact.
Uh, you know, the Canadians haveessentially four ports, two on
the east and two on the west.
Maybe they'll get a little bitmore.
You know, we in the UnitedStates we have 20, 30 major

(45:33):
ports that serve all through theUnited States.
So Canadian policy is focused ontheir their growth of those
support complexes in order toget cargo into the United
States.
And and our government has hasimposed for various reasons, you
know, uh taxes like the harbormaintenance tax that force

(45:53):
shippers to pay more to getdredge funds and uh and also
potentially penalties as aresult of USTR action.
So we're hopeful that therecould be some equalization.
I think we'd be comfortable onuh apples to apples competition
to the north and south, but it'snot that way right now.

(46:14):
And so we we need to dosomething about that.

SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
And that's so interesting.
I hadn't actually heard that,the the concern about going to
Canadian or Mexican ports, but II often hear that about harbor
maintenance tax, right?
And the the loophole was closedon that.
But you're right, USTR Section301 is assessing against China
built or operated vessels.
But yeah, if if you're 50 milesaway or you know, maybe 100 and
200 miles away, and you couldjust go to a different port just

(46:39):
up the way instead.
Interesting, yeah, that that isa loophole that that seems like
it should be closed.

SPEAKER_00 (46:46):
We we've asked for it, but there's actually some
recognition in the president'sexecutive order on this.
So we're gonna work to to ensurethat there's just equality in
the assessments.
Uh, we shouldn't be givingsomeone an opportunity to serve
our nation's supply throughports in their nation because of

(47:09):
our federal policies.
And so so we're hopeful that wecan get some adjustments on
that.
And and you know, I I hate Ihate to we have a really uh good
relationship with our uhCanadian uh counterparts, less
uh experience with uh Mexico,but but it certainly hurts us
though those actions that ourgovernment's taking in uh in the

(47:31):
competition that exists.
Uh so we want just faircompetition uh uh on the the
assessment of of of uh uhcargoes.

SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
Yeah, and and it seems like this might have been
an inadvertent, you know,shooting us in the foot kind of
thing where we didn't mean to becargo diversion, right?
We didn't mean to be creating acargo diversion opportunity for
these vessels to go elsewhere.
It was it was trying to impactbehavior for the dominance of
China in the maritime vesselshipbuilding space.
But yeah, the it's important forthe industry to stay engaged and

(48:02):
to notice these loopholes thatneed closing.

SPEAKER_00 (48:04):
Yeah, no, no, no.
If we uh it i if these aregovernmental actions, I mean, on
the other hand, the Canadiangovernment and you know spent a
lot of money providinginfrastructure funding for a
much smaller pool of uh of uh uhport complexes in order to serve
our markets because we're suchbig markets.
So uh I think in 2005 or 2006,only about 5% of the intermodal

(48:30):
cargo was going through Canadianports.
The last the last time I looked,I think close to 60, and this is
into Chicago, from West Coast tointo Chicago was five or six six
points percentage points, andnow that's over 60 percent.

SPEAKER_01 (48:46):
Well, we're almost done.
I've really enjoyed theconversation here today, but and
I'm sure we'll have you backbefore this.
But if we had you back when wehave you back in five years,
what do you want us to becelebrating the achievements
that Nowie has is looking for inthe next five years?
What are we gonna be talkingabout in five years, do you
think?
A wild question, because whoknows, right?

SPEAKER_00 (49:06):
But no, no.
I mean, uh I I think we wouldlike to get some adjustment to
whatever the trade policy is tomake sure we can continue to to
handle trade moving forward.
We need to come up with policyadjustments on how, you know,
this administration right now isis not inclined to push

(49:29):
environmental, you know,decarbonization, for instance.
But we still face pressures withother entities, international
pressures or state or ormunicipal or or local uh
pressures.
So how our industry uh addressesthat with costs so high in these
areas of constrained growth toadapt, we need to come up with a

(49:55):
plan to uh address what the whatthe decision is on uh future uh
issue, environmental health andsafety issues that we have to
address.
We're gonna I would like to havededicated funding for
infrastructure at our terms.
We're the the no.
We're the we're actually the hubuh of international trade.

(50:19):
And if you don't keep the uh hubuh lubed and operating smoothly,
uh everything else is gonna fallapart.
So I I would hope that we couldattract a way of maintaining
some level of dedication tocommitments of infrastructure,
and that is water, that's shoreside, and that's even some of

(50:40):
the uh the equipment and and themandates that we're that we're
facing.
And and I think greatercoordination with uh government,
state agencies, and the privatesector.
You know, how do we reach outand make sure our customers are
getting the best services andwe're not impeding their
operations by virtue of ouroperations?

(51:02):
So those would be the targetsand uh and and I would say
greater recognition for our uhour our importance as an
industry and acknowledgement ofthe services that are provided
uh generally uh for the shippingindustry.
So maritime shipping industry.
So those are the broad brushdirections that we're gonna be

(51:23):
aimed at, but but essentially Iwant to make a better
environment uh conditionedpolicy to help our industries
move forward.
We we're we have a new uh logoon maritime port operations,
port and terminal operations2040, a road uh 2040, a roadmap

(51:44):
to the future.
And so, how do we get to wherewe're gonna need to be by 2040?
And and so that's what we're uhtargeting long range and short
range will go as issue comes upto address the concerns of the
industry.

SPEAKER_01 (52:00):
That's great.
Well, in 15 years, we may haveU.S.
carriers as as part of thecompetitive market in the ocean
carriers world.
Who knows where we'll be in 15years?
Well, before we go, you have abig conference coming up next
week.
Uh, what can attendees expect?
Why is this such an importantconference right now, gathering
the industry, having theseconversations?

SPEAKER_00 (52:19):
So, well, one of the things I'm trying to do with my
association is increase ourpresence with all of the
shipping uh communities, so uhintermote trucking, railroads,
bco's, uh, shippers, mvoccs.
Uh, we've we've got a prettygood relationship with the cares
because we we some many of ourour our officials that that work

(52:41):
in our industry are are fromsteamship lines and they work uh
there uh and we have contractswith them, but we need to to do
a better job.
And so our annual conference isin Huntington Beach, I uh in
California, excited.
We're gonna talk about lots ofinteresting issues, warm
weather, and get together to seehow we can work on supporting

(53:05):
the policies that we need.
Uh and so going forward, I I dothink we it's incumbent on our
industry uh to increasingly takeuh a leadership role and to work
with those in the shippingindustry that we we should work
with all the time.
And so I can tell you when I wasat the FMC, I heard more about

(53:27):
trucking issues than I heard insome uh cases about shipping
issues and terminal issues, andthey're vital to the movement of
cargo through our terminals.
So we have to make sure our ownoperations work the uh the same
way and and vice and vice versa.
We I remember they all came touh to the uh terminals.

(53:49):
So you guys have to be open 24hours, seven days a week.
And we we told them no one,we've we've tried that before.
We open our terminals on Sundayand no one shows up.
Truckers don't have any moretime left uh to service that,
and the warehouses are not open,so you could pick up cargo from
my terminal and have a truckdriver go out and wait for two

(54:10):
days before the warehouse uhopens up or the transload
facility to take the 40-footcontainer and put it in the
53-foot container.
So uh we're dependent on all ofthose elements, uh, ocean
carriers, inomotor rail,trucking, uh the BCOs
themselves.
And so I'd I'd like to make surethat our companies are actively

(54:33):
engaged in all aspects oflogistics uh going forward.
And we're the connective bodythat uh that that uh that hosts
them all.

SPEAKER_01 (54:43):
Well, that's great.
Well, enjoy, have fun, enjoy thewarm weather.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
For listeners who want to followalong, where should they go?
Where can they find now we moreinformation?

SPEAKER_00 (54:53):
www.naui.com.

SPEAKER_01 (54:56):
Perfect.
Well, thank you so much, Carl.
Great to have you.

SPEAKER_00 (55:00):
Okay, Lauren.
It's great to see you again, anduh I will see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 (55:05):
Perfect, thank you.

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