From Corporate Life to Freelance Freedom

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Scott Robohn's journey from corporate network engineer to successful independent consultant offers a roadmap for anyone considering the entrepreneurial path in tech. After 35 years in the networking industry, Scott found himself ready to build something of his own—not necessarily a product, but an enterprise he could be fully responsible for.

The transition wasn't without careful consideration. Scott spent a full year planning his exit, having extensive conversations with his wife and financial advisor to ensure he had sufficient runway (approximately three years) if things didn't go as planned. This preparation phase wasn't just about the numbers; it was about creating psychological safety and family buy-in for what would be a significant life change.

What stands out most in Scott's experience is how he navigated the unexpected challenges of independence. On just his second day of self-employment, he had the jarring realization that he was no longer part of a team—something that had been constant throughout his career. This led him to intentionally create new communities through co-founding the Network Automation Forum and engaging with local networking user groups, demonstrating that entrepreneurship doesn't have to mean isolation.

Finding clients represents perhaps the biggest practical hurdle for new consultants. Scott shares how his initial work came through his existing network, with LinkedIn playing a surprisingly crucial role in business development. As his practice evolved, he discovered an unexpected passion for certain specialty areas, including his Total Network Operations approach, which examines how network operations teams need to reorganize for modern networks and tooling.

For those contemplating their own leap, Scott offers candid advice about the realities of American entrepreneurship—including the significant hurdle of healthcare costs—while providing encouragement that with proper planning, the transition can lead to greater fulfillment. As his wife observed at his one-year anniversary: "I've seen you work this hard before, but always accompanied with stress. Now I see you working this hard and I don't see the stress."

Ready to explore entrepreneurship in tech? Join Scott at the Network Automation Forum events in Prague (May 2025) or in the US (November 2025), and discover how you might thrive on your own terms.

Connect with our guest:

https://packetpushers.net/podcast/total-network-operations/

https://networkautomation

Purchase Chris and Tim's new book on AWS Cloud Networking: https://www.amazon.com/Certified-Advanced-Networking-Certification-certification/dp/1835080839/

Check out the Fortnightly Cloud Networking News
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkBWCGwXDUX9OfZ9_MvSVup8tJJzJeqrauaE6VPT2b0/

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, more attractive version, ChrisMiles at BGP Main on Blue Sky,
and of course, I am carpe-dmbpnon Blue Sky, and with us we have

(00:34):
a very special guest who wehaven't had on the podcast
before, but we're fixing thatnow Scott Robon Robon.
I said that right, right, Robon.

Scott (00:42):
It's like putting a robe on yeah Robon, okay cool, do you
?
I said that right right Rabon.
It's like putting a robe onyeah Rabon, okay cool.

Tim (00:47):
Do you have a blue sky, scott, I didn't actually forget.

Scott (00:49):
I'm Scott Rabon.

Tim (00:50):
One word I'm blue sky.
Okay, I thought so, but Ididn't want to get my wires
crossed and think about somebodyelse.
Okay, cool.
So let me go ahead andintroduce the topic real quick
and then we'll let Scottintroduce himself.

(01:10):
So tonight we're going to betalking about kind of, you know,
with the economy being what itis, we're going to be talking
about freelancing andfreelancing or also and also
owning your own business andlike kind of going into
professional consulting, kind ofas a business, and we'll kind
of ask all sorts of questionsand see, you know, I'm sure a
lot of people have a lot ofquestions about what that looks
like.
So, Scott, go ahead andintroduce yourself.

Scott (01:25):
Hey, really appreciate you, gentlemen, having me on.
I'm Scott Robon.
I'm the founder of TechSalescraft.
That's my consulting company,but it lets me do lots of other
things besides consulting.
I'm a co-founder of NetworkAutomation Forum.
I have a podcast on packetpushers called Total network
operations.
That's actually turning into aline of consulting business that
I do.
Um, I've been an internetplumber for 35 ish years.

(01:51):
Um just had a career that'sgrown up with the commercial
internet.
Um, and just feel superfortunate.
I've uh been fascinated with itfrom, uh, from day one, right
out of school.

Tim (02:01):
So that's really.
That's.
That's cool.
So I'm I actually had a reallywhat I would consider probably a
really late start into networkengineering.
Actually, I bounced around mycareer.
I started when I was 20 and Ibounced around in various things
in it and then I actually fellinto network engineering when I
was 28, almost 29.

(02:22):
So I definitely it wasdefinitely a late entry for me.
I was a late bloomer.

Scott (02:29):
I forget.
Let me throw this at you.
So I learned ATM before Ilearned IP.
I learned secure telephonybefore I learned ATM, and one of
my first projects at a carrierwas looking at single point of
failure issues in differentfacilities.
Over 12 T1 MLPPP bundles on BayNetwork's routers Wow, nice.

(02:52):
So you know that's.
I don't know one who'slistening understands what any
of that means anymore, so happyto explain.

Tim (03:00):
We actually have a pretty diverse listening group and
actually we haven't put out Iwas going to remember we didn't
last year.
We put out the what is it?
The survey, yeah, the survey.
And we asked people like hey,where are you in your career and
everything.
We had a surprising number ofpeople who have been in the
industry for about as long oralmost as long.

Chris (03:21):
We should add a question.
It says what's your triggerword?

Scott (03:28):
And depending on how far back that word goes, what
technology?

Tim (03:30):
will you never want to work again?
Yeah, x dot 25.
Yeah, okay, so, yeah.
So so obviously we broughtScott on because he has a.
Well, he's been doing this along time and so you know I
wanted to ask when you firststarted, like started getting
out of corporate life, if youwill or actually I didn't ask
how long you were kind of doingthe corporate life before you
decided to to get intofreelancing and consulting.

Scott (03:54):
So I've been out on my own just over two years.
Now is January 2023.
Took a long ramp leading up tothat long ramp.
Leading up to that, I probablyspent the year before pulling
the trigger really thinking itthrough very much, over
communicating things with mywife and my one last adult
daughter, who's still at homewith us.

(04:15):
And you know, I've wanted to dothis forever.
I like, really early on in mycareer, it's like I'd like to
build something not necessarilya product, but you know,
something that I'm responsiblefor and I came close a couple of
times and just got cold feetand I have size 15 feet, so
that's a lot of cold.
But you know, look, I can't sayit was anything that pushed me

(04:39):
out.
I had a great career, you know,on the operations side, with
Bell Atlantic, as a Ciscotrainer and then a Juniper
trainer, long time at Juniper.
That got me into being an SEand an SE leader had some time
at Cisco and Nokia and even adisaggregated provider,

(05:01):
drivenets if you've ever heardof them.
But that really just finallyall came to fruition and the
last step for me was sittingdown with my financial advisor
and saying, look, I think I'mready to pull the trigger here
and just really kind of go withvery little safety net and that,
talking through the financialknow, the financial situation,

(05:24):
was the thing that made me, youknow, gave me the confidence to,
you know, just start doing itwith a plan.
But you need a plan from whichto deviate, so we can talk about
that at some point.

Tim (05:36):
So it sounds like you did a .
Well, you did what probablyeverybody should do, which is
try to figure out basically canI afford to not have a nine to
five so that I can and do thison my own?
And I swear like that's for me.
For me, there's like a fewthings that I big red flags that
keep me from trying to thinkabout like, hey, could I do this

(05:57):
?
And that's that's one of them.
You know, just trying to figureout, like, do I have enough in
the bank?
What is in the bank?
Like, how much do I have tohave?
If this thing doesn'timmediately take off, you know,
how many months do I need?
Like, is that?
I mean, I assume that's thekind of math you were trying to
figure out with the advisor,right?

Scott (06:16):
Absolutely.
And you know the calculus camedown to okay, what if you're
horrible?
How long can you last if you'rehorrible?
And you know, number one, thatwas not the plan.
Number two okay, worst case, Iprobably had three years of
runway, and you know who wantsto deplete their resources,
right?
So I want to get out there anddo it anyway.

(06:38):
But I also want to emphasize,you know, relationships for
important people in your life,like with my wife.
I think it was just asimportant to have those
conversations about.
This is what I'm thinking let'slook at the budget and let's
get you know, let's get lean andlet's do this together.

(06:58):
So it wasn't, you know, oneperson me saying this is this is
how it's going to work.
Let's work on it together.
And I mean that wasn't just atactic, that was really
important anyway.
But making sure we were havingthat open communication about
this and having buy-in together,that's all sorts of goodness.
Right?
You don't want to fight uphillon that with your significant

(07:21):
other in any way that with yoursignificant other in any way.

Tim (07:26):
So, especially if things don't, you know, don't take off
and then you're you know they'rebeing very nervous about things
no, you're a hundred percentand you can't.
If there is a significant other, if there's some other
stakeholder in it, like theyhave to be involved, if for no
other reason than, like you said, you need to get lean.

Chris (07:41):
You have to have a plan for if you fail.
Right, yep, exactly.

Scott (07:47):
And going back to corporate employment, was you
know that's obviously you knowpart of the backup plan at that
initial point right Now.
It's not a guarantee andeverybody you know who's been in
our business knows that if youget impacted by a layoff or you
choose to leave someplacewithout a next place to land, it
doesn't mean you're going tofind your next employer in just

(08:08):
a couple months Sometimes ittakes a lot longer.

Tim (08:10):
Well, and lately it's holy crap man.

Chris (08:13):
It could be longer.

Tim (08:14):
Industry is on fire, man, I don't know it's been so I think
this might be the worst I'veever seen it since I've been in
the.
Maybe I wasn't in tech in 2000,but I know the I know right
around then was like really badtoo because of thecom bubble
bursting.

Scott (08:30):
It was it was a tough time, you know, and like I.
So I was a juniper at that timeand I remember, you know, the
day in the office when the firstfirst layoffs they ever had
were announced After that, likefirst five years of incredible
growth, to just kind of have toscale back that enthusiasm.
You know that was, that wastough for folks.

(08:51):
But you know, I think thatleads into, you know, not just
confidence in your bank accountright, what you have to fall
back on but confidence in yourskills, right.
Do you?
Are you really going to be able, do you really think you can go
out and peddle yourself andwhatever ideas you have and get

(09:11):
somebody to pay you for it?
And you know, when you reachthe level of insanity where the
answer to that question becomesyes, you're ready at that point.
And I'd say that's something Ireally wrestled with over time
too.
That's probably why I cameclose and backed out.
And just to give a tip of thehat to a really good friend of
mine, his name's James Dirksen,I will tell him about this

(09:33):
episode.
He may or may not listen to it,but he started his own
independent work probably adecade before I ever did, and he
always was a gentle encourager,basically said you can do this,
not pushing me, you know, nottrying to get me to do anything
I didn't want to do.
But I give him a lot of creditbecause, leading by example,

(09:54):
kind of said yes, if James cando it, I can do it.
Sorry, just kidding, for anyaudio only listeners.

Tim (10:00):
So yeah, the for me, like I have such terrible imposter
syndrome like I, it would.
It's hard for me to think likethat people would actually that
that I could go do work forsomeone and they would pay me
some.
You know the amount of moneythat you would need to make this
thing work right and right.
So I definitely struggle, havestruggled, uh, with that idea.

(10:23):
So that's definitely beensomething I been something
that's kept me from taking thatleap.
And I don't think, I don't knowis there.
I don't know if there's anyspecific advice that anyone can
give another person about how toget over that.
But yeah, I think it's a bigroadblock for a lot of people.

Scott (10:39):
I think there are a couple, you know, part of it's
becoming comfortable in your ownskin and you know, look, I do
the math right.
If I've got 35 years ofexperience, you can probably
figure out how old I am-ish andI would consider myself a late
bloomer.
You know, to really get to thepoint of self-confidence that I
could try this, I think one ofthe other confidence things that

(11:03):
was an aha moment for me waseverything what you bring to the
table.
What combination of technicalskills, people skills.
It's not for everybody, it'sprobably not even for most
people, but it's for somebodyright and like podcasts, I think
, are really interesting inmicrocosm of that right.
You know, I'm not sure if 1.2million people are listening to

(11:23):
Cables, to Clouds.
They probably are, and that'sawesome, but the medium lets you
find your audience right.
Yeah, it's not exactly the samewith doing consulting work, but
there's an analogy there, ifthat makes sense.

Chris (11:36):
Yeah, what's branding?
I'm curious.
Yeah, like you said, Tim, it'sbranding, right, Personal
branding, and you have to.
You know I think we've we'vesung the praises of having a
personal brand on this podbefore and probably will
continue to do so because wethink it's, you know, very
valuable.
But I'm curious, Scott, fromyour perspective.
So, like, obviously you have aton of industry experience, so

(11:57):
you've been, you know, you'vebeen in the trenches, you
understand, you know exactlywhat goes into, you know being a
network engineer and how that'sevolved over the last 20 years.
But I'm curious, like, if you,when you moved into wanting to
run your own company and do yourown consulting, like how did
you identify what your niche wasLike, how, what would

(12:19):
potentially like set you apartfrom other consultants?
Or you know, or did you gothrough that process?

Scott (12:24):
Not as thoroughly as one might think, and this is where
I'll throw the.
You know you need a plan fromwhich to deviate out.
So my path was, you know,having been on the pre-sales
technical side for the 15 yearsprevious to making this leap, I
thought, okay, a reallyinteresting gig would be helping

(12:47):
folks with technicalgo-to-market, like helping
create marketing materials thatare actually true and accurate.
And I got to find some of thatwork early on with through my
friend James, through a DARPAprogram actually called the
Embedded Entrepreneur Initiative.

(13:11):
And you know, darpa works withall sorts of tech companies that
create piles of tech that arenot ready for prime time.
They're not productized.
They might be able to becomeproducts, they might be better
off ending up as a feature onsomebody's cloud platform, but
the people who are good at thebasic tech creation aren't the
same people who understand.
Well, this is what a use casewould look like for this as a

(13:32):
product.
Here's how I would demo it, etcetera, et cetera.
So it was really actually a coolconfluence of, you know, people
who understand go-to-market andproduct management and people
doing really interesting basictech.
So that's kind of what I hadright out of the gate for me and

(13:52):
to make it relevant to yourparticular topic or your podcast
.
In general, my heritage is notas a cloud person I've chipped
away, I did the AWS babysertperson Like I've I've chipped
away, I did the AWS babysert,you know I've.
I've tried to piece thingstogether as I've gone and I got
thrown right into this projectthat was basically an IAM

(14:12):
modeling tool, and one of thesecompanies creating basic tech
had a graph-based technology forlooking at problems and gaps in
IAM permissions.
And this is totally an old dog,new tricks.
You know I had no idea I coulddo this Again with a little baby

(14:33):
AWS knowledge.
And there was a day, like thepeople I was working with wanted
an initial demo of the product,like you know, a scripted
here's the use case we're tryingto go after and so forth.
And I was, I was being aperfectionist and I said just do
it a couple more times before Ibring it, you know, out in the

(14:55):
open.
And I kind of got tricked intodoing it live with the customer
on a call that afternoon and itwas the right thing to do, like
just ripping off the Band-Aid,but it's a confidence builder,
right.
You go, you find one of thoseinitial projects, maybe even a
technology area you're notcompletely comfortable with, and
you get somebody pushing youout the door and that was a huge

(15:18):
boost for me.

Chris (15:18):
I was going to say good thing, you were in SE at one
point.
You get asked to do a lot ofdemos that you weren't expecting
to do, so I'm sure that was acommon feeling for you, you got
that right.

Tim (15:31):
What's interesting?
A couple things.
For one, it's interesting thatthat was your introduction to
consulting, because what youbasically described is technical
marketing.
I'm a TME, so technicalmarketing engineering.
You're right, tme like I'm aTME, right, so technical
marketing engineering, that's,that's, that's it, so that's
really that's.
That makes a lot of sense, andof what I've also found about

(15:51):
technology.
I know there's new technologyand we're on a treadmill that
we'll probably never ever beable to get off of.
But when you get a certainamount of experience and this is
this is something that I hopethe people who are earlier in
career will listen to and findhope in is that when you get a
certain amount of experience ora certain amount of exposure to
the tech that's out there, whatyou'll find is that 90% of every

(16:12):
new technology is just threeold technologies in a trench
coat you know, at the end of theday, the raccoons with the baby
hat on the uppermost raccoon.
Yeah, it's the case, andespecially in networking, where
that's always been the case.
Every new technology, likeDMVPN, is just a frame relay
with a new face.

(16:32):
Right, take any old technologyand dress it up with lipstick,
and now it's a new technology.

Scott (16:39):
There's hub and spoke behind there somewhere.

Tim (16:41):
That's right.
So it's not turtles all the waydown, but uh, you know what a
turtle looks like.
You should be able to muddlethrough eventually.
Um, so the other thing thatkeeps me from thinking about
like starting my own consultingbusiness is so, so okay.
So before my grandfather passedhe was very staunch like
business guyunch business guy.

(17:02):
He didn't believe that anyoneshould work for anyone else.
He's a completely differentskill set to run a business, to

(17:23):
do the P&L, to do all of the SOW, to like just all the
administrative bullshitassociated with running a
business.
So you know, talk a little bitabout that.
How did you, did you just likeboth feet into the pool at the
same time to make that work?
Or how did how did you getnavigate that?

Scott (17:39):
It did.
I kind of just bit the bulletand I mean full disclosure.
The back-end business stuff isnot my favorite part of it, and
I think that's true for justabout every technologist that
you know does this sort of thing, but I knew it was a must-have.
One thing that's pretty awesomeabout you know the current
environment and probably thelast five plus years, is you

(18:02):
know there's fractionaleverything out there, right, and
you can get somebody to helpkeep your books and you can get
somebody to make sure that yourinvoices are getting paid.
Yeah.

Tim (18:12):
As a service.

Scott (18:13):
That's right.
That's right.
And I, a year and a half ago,started working with a virtual
assistant who lives 40 minutesfrom me and I've never met her
in person, but her name is Emilyand Emily, if you listen to
this, you rock.
You know she helps reduceentropy in my business life and,
like you know, having thosesupport functions to minimize

(18:37):
the amount of backend stuff thatyou don't want to do, that
aren't the best use of your timeLike that's much more easily
obtainable today, I think, thanprobably even you know five plus
years ago it's a really goodanswer.

Tim (18:49):
Actually, I hadn't even considered that part of it
because I hate well, I'm just nogood at it either like I like,
for example.
Uh, if it were coming to like Ihave to write a statement of
work for a customer, I think Icould write the statement of
actual work, just fine, but Godknows, I wouldn't have any
fucking clue.
I wouldn't have any clue.
I'm like what do I charge forthis service?
You know?
Like, how do I figure out aprofit and loss?

(19:11):
How do I figure out what?
You know that I made?

Scott (19:12):
that I'm not eating my hat by doing this work, right,
right, yes, I think projectsprojects is probably more art
than science, and I'm still notreally good at it, um, but again
I've got good resources to goto.
Um.
Part of the feedback loop is,uh, doing a project that you do,
you know, eat your hat on rightbecause you didn't bid enough

(19:35):
hours and it took you twice aswhat you budgeted.
Um, or pricing something toohigh and not winning the job
because of that.
But hopefully, as a sentienthuman being, you're able to take
feedback and incorporate itinto your future and you just
you have to take that attitude.
You're not going to get itright all the time, even though

(19:56):
you're going to try to.

Chris (19:57):
I'm curious how much of the business side of the aspect
did you did you know beforegoing into this?
Like, is this stuff that youjust kind of learned being in
the industry?
Or did you actually do any kindof formal training or education
on this stuff?
Or did it?
Or did you kind of like takewhat you know and then kind of

(20:18):
added in the pieces you didn'thave, using fractional people as
those services?
How did that come to be?

Scott (20:26):
So no formal training at all, but two really good sources
of here's people you can go toif you have questions.
One of them is the guy, james,that I keep over quoting here,
always good for a question onhow do I do this.
Also, my financial advisorplugged me in with other local
business people that were reallysupportive and other good

(20:51):
places for me to hey, do youknow somebody who knows about
this or can help with this froma business perspective?
We've got a couple of thoseremote workplaces in my town as
well and they actually use thatas a feature to sell you to come
in and use space.

Tim (21:06):
Oh, like the WeWork facility.
That's right, yeah, but my townis too small.

Scott (21:11):
Yeah, we don't qualify for WeWork, but I visited the
newest one a couple of weeks agoand almost almost you know said
let me try it for a couplemonths, just for that aspect of
rubbing elbows with otherentrepreneurs, other folks in
the local networking.
Right, that's right, yep.
But here's another big thingthat kind of hit me early on in

(21:34):
the gig.
I, I'm, I'm a team player,right, I've been always been
part of teams and I'm, I'm,wired that way.
I like it.
On day two literally it was theTuesday after the Monday that I
officially started on my own.
Um, I had this realization thatI'm not part of a team anymore

(21:55):
and my, there was a temporary mystomach dropped out from
beneath me.
Um and but, um, I but I cameback to my senses pretty quickly
and just had the thought thatI'm just gonna have to find
other ways to be part of a team.
And that's led me to do otherthings, like co-found Network
Automation Forum and, eventhough that's not an employer or

(22:18):
a you know the same kind oforganization, it's certainly
scratched an itch there, where Ido have a community that I'm
part of.
That's pretty awesome to seehow they come together and help
each other on automation issuesand other issues too and like so
.
There are other ways to build ateam and feel part of a team,
even if you're not in acorporate context anymore.

(22:39):
That's really good.

Chris (22:40):
Yeah, just a bit of feedback there.
I will say that it must beworking because the reviews I've
gotten about Network AutomationForum have been astounding.
To be honest with you, Somepeople have said it's the best
kind of networking basedconference they've been to, et
cetera.
So I think you're doing a greatjob there.
And I also wanna kind of touchon that point you made about

(23:03):
getting involved in these kindof like entrepreneurial hubs and
things like that.
When I when I briefly lived inTulsa same thing they had this
thing called 36 degrees North.
I think it's changed names now,I can't remember, but like I
was part of this program whereall these remote workers were
moved to Tulsa and they wouldall go to this entrepreneurial
hub like co-working space and Ihave seen people just like

(23:25):
thrive there, like startingbusinesses, doing those things.
So like, yeah, if you can findone of those communities, I can
definitely see how you can justlike build the groundswell and
then just like launch, like itreally works.

Scott (23:37):
I've seen the benefit in those I haven't tapped into that
per se.
I see the benefit in those Ihaven't tapped into that per se.
But another group I want to tiphat to is USNUA and the local
networking user group Sureabsolutely.

(23:59):
We'll pay homage to Jason Ginter, who was supposed to be with us
tonight, wasn't available.
Jason, right, I'm here inNorthern Virginia much of the
time and that's been another wayto like connect with folks with
same technical interests in,you know, a different way than
NAS, but a very complimentaryway, you know that very
hyperlocal, and I probably spent2024 going to maybe 10 or 11

(24:21):
different NUG meetings all overthe place.
So, yeah, but those communityconnections are really important
.

Tim (24:28):
You may not think they are, but they are so oh no, I mean
especially when, like you know,especially in a time like now
where, like, people are gettinglaid off left and right and
center and the industry is onfire, like you know, I've heard
so many horror stories andpeople are like.
You know, I've been out of jobfor over a year and I've sent
5,000 applications, you know,I've sent 5,000 applications in

(24:49):
and I've applied on thesewebsites and, at the end of the
day, it's it's really yournetwork that's going to be there
for you, like probably when inthat, in that moment, and then
that you need to be, you know,in the same method, you need to
be there for other people asmuch as possible to help connect
, because I think getting a jobor whatever, like in that
situation it's it's it's hard,like it's a black hole and

(25:11):
you're competing with so manyother people and leveraging your
network is such a huge boon.
So, yeah, making thoseconnections and just and be, and
not not insincerely right, notmaking connections and just
seeing what you can get out ofthem, but like truly making
connections and actually beingpart of community and networking
with people.

Scott (25:31):
Yeah, man, it's, there's not a I don't think there's a
substitute for it.
Really, I think before doingthis my ideas and thoughts
around community were restrictedto religious groups and the
neighborhood that you lived in,and I've kind of seen the power
of community in other contextsand so that really kind of

(25:53):
expanded my view there prettyclearly.
It's been great to figure thatout.

Tim (25:59):
So actually, this is an interesting question.
So a thing I wanted to ask thatyou just reminded me of as a
tangent to this what about, ordo you I don't know if this has
happened to you or not have youever had to take on a job or a
consulting gig or whatever, orget asked to do something that
you yourself either don't havethe skill set for, don't have
the time for, like, have youdone subcontracting as part of

(26:23):
your business?
Have you brought in otherpeople to perform any kind of
some people do and some peopledon't?
Right, yeah, and it's adifferent.
People run their businessesdifferently, so I was just
curious has that been a thingthat you had to concern yourself
with?

Scott (26:34):
So I'm actually in the middle of a project where we're
bringing somebody on as acontractor because he has the
right skill set and because Idon't have the time to do it,
and you know it's using yournetwork right and figuring out
okay who's doing what and whoneeds what, and I'll, I mean,

(26:55):
I'll say, on this point, anotherhuge lesson learned was how
important your LinkedIn networkis.
Oh yeah, Right, and LinkedIn isjust a manifestation of the
people that you actually know,but it's a very practical
manifestation of it and I had noclue how useful that was going
to be to me.
Just, you know, seeing thingsto ask questions about and

(27:16):
leading to opportunities in waysthat I just had not ever
expected.

Tim (27:20):
Yeah, I mean, linkedin itself is just an artifact.
It's a social media site that'sfocused on business.
But yeah, that that essentiallythat gathering space for people
in your network where you canknow that you will find them
basically is what we're really.
I think what we're talkingabout here, right, like exactly,
yeah, so totally agree withthat.

Chris (27:39):
And I think, I think you've partially answered this
in some capacity.
But I'm curious, now that youare kind of outside of, you know
, having a big company behindyou, so to say.
I say that until it grows intothis conglomerate right, which
will happen one day- Rebel Corpyeah.
But, like, how do you staycurrent with like technology and

(28:02):
things like that?
Like, obviously, if you haveNAF and you have a USNUA, then
there's, you're tapped into thecommunity.
But is there, is there acertain way that you're making
sure that your skillset is is upto date, not only from a
technical perspective, but alsojust a market perspective?
Right, you got to know what'sout there and what is what
services people are going to payfor, right?
So how are you staying currentin that capacity?

Scott (28:23):
So my number one mechanism for that is podcasts.
Um, and I, I like to walk andrun for exercise.
Maybe running, calling itrunning is a little generous for
me at my stage in life, but butlike that's.
You know, we we had thisoffline conversation about video
versus audio, only Right, anduh, I just load up on podcasts

(28:46):
and I have ones that Iintentionally stretch me.
Um, what's the AI developer?
One latent space, um, I'veheard of it.

Chris (28:54):
I haven't listened to it.

Tim (28:55):
I've been listening, but that does sound.
I've seen it, I know it's hard.

Scott (28:58):
And I don't understand half the things they're talking
about.
Um, I've seen it.
I know it's hard and I don'tunderstand half the things
they're talking about, but it'sexposure and it's like, okay, I
need to go learn about that.
I need to go learn about that.
You know, and amongst ourcommunity of you know, you know
spread networking and cloudnetworking and adjacent tech,
I've always got something comingat me and it's probably because

(29:20):
I'm also always trying tobattle tinnitus.
But let's just say this is ahappy side effect of, you know,
usually listening to somethingwhen I'm not supposed to be
paying attention to somebodyelse, like my wife.

Chris (29:35):
So I also pay for YouTube .

Scott (29:36):
Premium specifically so it will keep playing, even when
the screen locks Right, so sameapproach there.

Chris (29:45):
Youtube Premium Look, I hate them for doing it, but it's
one of the best investments.
They got us all locked in onYouTube for years and years, and
then like I will never.

Tim (29:55):
That's the one thing that's worth the money, for sure I
didn't even realize this was athing that youtube premium did,
because, yeah, so I've beenlearning, for I've been learning
japanese for for years now, forfor almost three years now, and
I've watched a little bit ofyour, your, uh, your progress
reports on that yeah, I'mworking, I'm working on it, I'm
working on it, um, but what Iwas going to say is today, for
example, I really wanted to loadup some they they do a lot of.

(30:19):
there's a lot of japaneselanguage podcasts on youtube and
, uh, that are not necessarilylike on podcast catchers because
they're, you know, japanese.
I just haven't done the work to, but I usually listen to them
on youtube while I'm doing otherthings, and I wanted to go on a
walk today and, um, and I and Idid that.
I hit the YouTube button andthen, and then I put the phone
in my pocket and I was like, ah,shit, cause it stopped playing.

(30:41):
Of course, I was like, man, Iwish I could get this thing to
keep playing.
I didn't even know that waslike a thing.
I didn't realize the YouTubepremium on that sale.
Yeah, I'll split it with you,chris.

Scott (30:58):
Yeah, that's fair.
It'll be like $3.
Exactly One time payment, yeah.

Tim (31:04):
See, you learn something.
Everybody learns something onthis podcast.
Yeah.

Scott (31:07):
Let me.
I don't want to cut off yourquestions, but let me just throw
out one other big idea that'sreally you know, why do this
right and how do you adjust yourplans?
And I think when you stumble onsomething or something brews for
long enough that it's somethingyou get really interested in
and you feel like you havethings to say about it.
That's a driver right, and forsome people that's a product

(31:32):
idea.
You know, for some people it'sbasically a consulting
engagement model, and that'swhat led me to start the Total
Network Operations podcast onPacket Pushers and talk to
organizations about you have amodern network.
Do you really think you shouldstay organizationally aligned to

(31:53):
the old way?
And are you thinking about thenew tools in tech from an ops
perspective?
You know ops teams.
You really need to participatein your own rescue.
How do you elevate and I won'tgo into a pitch on that here,
but kind of developing thoseideas and turning it into
something where I'm havingmultiple constructive consulting

(32:13):
engagements with enterprises.
That's pretty awesome to liketo say this is something that I.
It's my idea and I'm notbragging like cause, you know,
but no idea is purely yours,right, you?
You have all sorts ofinfluences.

Tim (32:26):
Yeah, I mean, everybody forms their opinions based on
the things they learn, thethings they do.
Yeah, no, that's great though,because you know you've got this
point that you basically tomake and on the podcast, which
is true, by the way, I've I'vetalked to many, you know, ops
teams, who are some varyingflavor of essentially consumers

(32:47):
of whatever tooling managementbuys for them.

Chris (32:50):
That's right.

Tim (32:51):
Which is terrible, instead of it should be the opposite of
way.
The ops people should be sayinghere's maybe not tool, maybe
not saying here's the tool weneed, but certainly here's the
data we need.
Now, how do we find these tools?
But anyway, but that leads toopportunities for you to then
you know cause people arehearing that and being like,
yeah, we agree with you, andthen it becoming a business
opportunity.
I think that's really powerful,cause I was going to ask

(33:12):
basically my next question and Idon't mean it to be like a Q
and a, but I just have so manyquestions about this.

Scott (33:17):
This is awesome.
This is going fine yeah.

Tim (33:19):
Yeah, you know how do you find customers.

Scott (33:23):
Like you know what I mean , Like you, you launch your,
your business on Tuesday,wednesday, where?

Tim (33:28):
where's the pipeline, like you know?
That's the part I, that'sanother thing.
I'm like man, how do I findcustomers?

Scott (33:33):
so on on the one hand, you'll find your initial
customers through your networkand your contacts right I mean
that's fairly organic andnatural.
Unless you're super charismaticand you have the, the pill to
ale all else or to cure all else, you're gonna need to do
marketing at some point, andthat's another huge lesson

(33:57):
learned here.
You know LinkedIn plays a rolethere.
Other tools play a role, One ofthe.
I interact with lots ofmarketers and marketing leaders
now in my you know, multipleroles and I never set out to
learn more about marketing, butI have.
It's actually a lot moreinteresting and I never set out

(34:17):
to learn more about marketing,but I have.
It's actually a lot moreinteresting than I ever expected
.
And it's also changing rightBecause of what AI is doing for
search and kind of breakingeverything with SEO.
Like everybody else has to haveme to figure it out all again.
Yeah, that's a great point, andlike I get to figure it out too
right along with them.

Tim (34:34):
Yeah, the SEO thing is so interesting and and the what is
it?
The open AI as a as searchengine bit like, yeah, that's
going to change.
Basically, seo won't be a thingLike, if that's breaks it,
totally breaks it, yep.
So yeah, yeah, I was listeningto an audio book because I
couldn't listen to the YouTubething I wanted to listen to.

(34:56):
I was listening to an audiobook on my walk instead.
It was one of those businessbooks or whatever.
The guy was saying that emailis still king from a marketing
perspective, not social media.
Email can drive you Websitesand email, but that email is
still apparently the number oneway to reach people.

(35:17):
I don't know if that's true ornot, that's, I don't know how
old this book is, but there'sprobably something to it.

Scott (35:23):
I do know that the noise threshold has risen horribly and
I have I have some increasedsympathy for marketers who will
say things just to get attention.
I don't like it.
I'm never going to recommendthat approach, especially for a
technical audience.
That's a.
You know, our BS detectors gooff pretty quickly, but the good

(35:47):
ones are the ones who don't dothat and still find a way
through the noise, and that'syou know.
Again, it's a changingenvironment.
I sound like I'm an expert onthis.
I'm going to I'm way over myskis right now, but it is
fascinating and like I'mlearning a ton in this area that
I didn't expect to.

Tim (36:05):
Well, I mean, I mean, I mean, what is an expert except
someone who's being successfulat the thing they're doing Right
?
So I mean, as long as you'rebeing successful, I think that's
still.
I think that fits.
I'm writing that down.
I'm going to remember that.
Tim said yes, yes, yes, Put thequote on your next newsletter
or whatever.
That's right.
People will read it and be likewho, but anyway, Tim, you know,

(36:28):
tim?

Scott (36:29):
Oh no, it was Chris.
It was Chris.

Tim (36:31):
Yeah, there you go Well if you said Chris, they'd probably
know what you're talking about.
I don't know.
Okay, I have to ask, I'll askone more question and then we
have to make this like more seewhere it goes.
Because this one and you don'thave to answer it, because I
feel like it's almost personal,but like I don't know how you'd

(36:52):
possibly like.
The number one red flag for mestarting my own business with a
family red flag for me startingmy own business with a family I
have I have a wife and twodaughters is how do you strike
out on your own, like in America, with, like, health insurance,
the way it is like how does, howdo you do it?
You don't have to answer, butyou don't have to answer.

Scott (37:09):
I will.
So that was a huge.
That was probably a big blockerfor me for a long time, and I
mean the short version is thereis a certain amount of suck it
up.
You're going to have to figureout how to pay for it.
The Affordable Care Act reallyhelps, right, when you're only
at an income level of you know aplace where you can qualify for
.
You know if you like yourdoctor, you can keep it in plans

(37:32):
, but if you're successful,you're not going to qualify for
that for long, right, and I'mlike 2025 is the year that I'm
going to have to make a switch.
Right, the reality is that itis expensive.
I don't have.
I only have my wife and I.

(37:52):
Now we have four adult children, so I mean, that was part of my
calculus too.

Tim (37:59):
You did the math on it.

Scott (37:59):
yeah, that's right, but it is doable.
You just you have to factor itin.
You have to.
The financial planning has toaccount for that.

Tim (38:08):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, I think.

Scott (38:12):
And that's for normal situations.

Tim (38:14):
Like I know, other people have very specific medical
circumstances that make that alot riskier At the end of the
day, whatever your situation,you just simply have to be able
to afford to not have youremployer pay for half of your
health insurance, whatever thatlooks like, I don't think
there's an easy answer for that.
Also, who knows how long theAffordable Care act will be

(38:36):
around?
But like, hopefully it,hopefully it stays.

Chris (38:38):
you know, stays um you could be a country with uh
socialized health care or, oryou can move to a country with a
socialized health care.

Tim (38:46):
I guess that would be an option as well, perhaps.
Uh, yeah, no, that for methat's every time I think about,
like intentionally doing it.
Like, for example, I have afriend in Canada, andrew Brown.
He runs a exam pro, he runs atraining platform and you know
he's that's his job, that's hisfull day, that's his full time
job.
He's very successful at it.

(39:07):
It's a really cool platform andI just like, dude, how nice,
good for you.
But like, I'm just thinkinglike I could not at this point
in my life, with two, you know,still underage kids and my wife
doesn't work, and so I'm, youknow, sole proprietor, if you
will, sole breadwinner.
It's yeah, man, it's.
It's tough like not to not tobe political.

(39:27):
But it's so funny that you knowthere's so much said, you know,
by the party of that lovesbusiness about, you know,
starting business and beingsuccessful business and the
American dream.
But I wonder how many peopleare actually blocked from from
starting their own businessbecause they literally just
won't, would not be able toafford to do it.

Scott (39:49):
Whether, whether it's whether it's a real financial
blocker or just the fear of it.
I mean, that's a real, that's areal impact and I definitely.
How am I going to pay forhealthcare?
How am I going to do this?
How?
You know, that was, that was mewhen I backed out a couple of
times before.
Right, I, you know.
Again, I don't.
We won't make it superpolitical, but I think the one
thing that is so messed up isthat doctors and healthcare

(40:11):
providers don't work for us.
They work for the insurancecompanies, and having this
intermediary, that is not.
You know, you can, you cansearch for all terms.
All you want, yeah, it, it.
It's even not even profitmotive.
Right, it's like you should beconcentrating on me, not what
bill code you can put down tomaximize the.

(40:34):
You know what's insurance isgoing to pay out.
And that's another podcast on adifferent network with other
beverages.

Tim (40:43):
I think there's a few of them out there already, but yeah
, no, and and again, not to.
I didn't.
I wasn't trying to make it apolitical at all but like but
but yeah, I mean, I think a lotof people and I've talked to a
lot of people and I think thereare a lot of people who are like
, look, I got to keep a day joband like this can just be my
side gig until you know thatthat time in my life comes where

(41:04):
I could potentially make thishappen Right, and do a full time
, do it on your own gig.
So, yeah, that's.
I wasn't looking, I didn't.
I didn't think there was anykind of silver bullet there.

Scott (41:18):
I was just like man.
The bottom line you know theway I would wrap that topic up
is there are ways you can do itIf you just plan, you know.
I am not saying it's easy, I'mnot saying it's cheap, but it
can.
It can be done and just geteducated and know what your
options are.
You know in that regard, youknow kind of build it as a side
gig until you're ready to leaveyour full-time employer.

(41:38):
I did this absolutely the wrongway.
I was too ready to actuallyjust jump over the cliff without
having lots of steady, you know, or promised revenue.
Yet that is not.
You know what the textbookstell you to do.

Tim (41:56):
Yeah I mean.
But you know you built anetwork and that obviously
helped a lot getting you started.
You had coaches who were inyour corner, right, that
obviously helps a lot.
You've called out multiplepeople multiple times about that
.
So, yeah, if there's anymessage we could give to the
people listening, from myperspective, the biggest one

(42:17):
would be, if you're going to tryto strike it on your own, like,
make sure that you have anetwork that can help you, help
support you in that endeavor.

Scott (42:25):
Yeah, again, not a LinkedIn plug, but just
discovering how important thatreally is right.
That really is right Not justfor you know jobs and revenue
and gigs, but for ideas tobounce off of Somebody might
know somebody you know there areso many other pieces to that

(42:46):
puzzle.
That makes your network soimportant.

Chris (42:49):
Yeah, I guess.
Maybe one last question for mebefore we kind of wrap this up,
so like, obviously you're,you're a few years into this,
you've you've kind of done a lotof research into it before you
went in.
Um, I guess, at this point,like what would you say, like
twofold question, like what,what is the easiest thing to do
to get started?
Um, if you're, if you'recontemplating doing this?

(43:10):
And second, like what are thethings you did wrong that you
would recommend someone not door do differently, which is
always, you know, take it with agrain of salt, I guess, but
yeah, what would you say?

Scott (43:21):
Well, I think you have to start with the things that are
really going to engage you, like, what are the things that you
really like doing that you canactually get other people to pay
you for?
You know, it's thatintersection of you, know, I
think I think I have talent andskills here, or at least enough,
and there's enough of a marketdemand for it.

(43:41):
I kind of business one on one,but I think some people don't
don't think that through.
To answer your, what did I dowrong?
Well, you know, again, probablyjumping in, maybe being a
little too frustrated and beingready to go.
You know that I'm an emotionalperson, right, and I probably

(44:01):
could have kept my emotionsunder check a little bit there.
I'm glad it worked out aspositively as it did and I don't
want to imply that there's onlyone way to do that right.
I think you can say by thenumbers that having more of a
plan well ahead of handing inthe resignation letter reduces

(44:22):
risk.
You're never going to eliminaterisk in this conversation, but
yeah, that's definitelysomething I could have thought
through more thoroughly, but itthankfully just has worked out
well.

Tim (44:34):
No, I think it's really good advice.
I mean, obviously it's not justlike, oh well, you should plan
better.
Right, like it's specificallylike you know, don't try not to
be emotional in the moment.
Try to really have the plantogether.
Try to really, you know, do themath.
Like, do all the stuff that yousaid you did all the way at the
beginning, right, like beforeyou pull that trigger, make you

(44:55):
did all the way at the beginning, right, like before you pull
that trigger.
Make sure that your financialadvisor believes that you have
the runway.
You know, all things beingequal, right, nobody knows
what's going to happen tomorrow,right, and you know a house
could burn down.
Who knows?
Nobody knows Exactly, butwithin reason, risk adverse you
know, within the margin of risk,right?

Chris (45:11):
So, basically, failing to plan is planning to fail, right
?
Yes, so it's pretty easy.
So, tim, if you want to do this, just sit your wife down, sit
your kids down and say hey, forthe next year we won't get sick,
we won't break any bones.

Tim (45:22):
That's right.
Nobody's leaving the housebecause I can't have anybody
trip on the stairs and breaktheir leg.

Scott (45:29):
Here's how the conversation really should go,
chris.
Hey, honey, here's what I'mthinking, and I think I really
love to do this, and here arethings that I think need to
happen.

Tim (45:40):
What do you?

Scott (45:40):
think Right, I mean, it's a real, and I know you were
just being silly, sorry.

Chris (45:43):
I don't want to sound?

Tim (45:44):
I think it's not fair.
No, that's a good point yeah,no, I completely agree with that
.

Scott (45:49):
So I mean let me, let me, let me give you like one,
please, if I were to end, if Iwere to end, if I were to end
with an anecdote on how's thatworked out.
So like I felt, like I I hadreally good partnership and
buy-in from my wife, stephanie.
Thank you, I love you.
She's going to listen to this,I bet.
And I at my year anniversary,like I, I'm really good at

(46:12):
memorializing dates.
I remember dates and I totallymissed the one year anniversary
of me starting my own businessand I realized that a couple of
weeks after the date and it'sjust a function of how busy I
was, which is a really goodproblem.

Tim (46:27):
That's a good problem to have, yeah.

Scott (46:29):
And so I said you know, hey, honey, you know I'm a year
into this, just passed.
I know what I think about.
How is it going?
What do you think?
She paused very thoughtfullyand she said I think you're
thriving.
I've seen you work this hardbefore, but always accompanied
with all the stress.
And now I see you working thishard and I don't see the stress.

(46:51):
That's super gratifying, youknow, to hear it from outside,
my own head, Right, and I didn'tthink of it that way and I I
just didn't realize how much Iwas enjoying things.

Chris (47:02):
Yeah, If the person that knows you the best says that, um
from a reserve review.
Then that's yeah, that's reallygood yeah.

Scott (47:09):
So that gives me continued hope and I hope it
gives others hope.

Tim (47:12):
That's great.
No, no, the, the definitely.
The goal here is to just letpeople know you know, hey, what,
what to expect and good, badand ugly, and and that's a.
I think that's a really goodplace to uh to wrap it up.
So, um, scott, thanks forthanks for joining us.
This has been so enlightening.
I hope that a lot of peoplethat listen to this really uh
find it enlightening as well,chris, any final thoughts?

Chris (47:34):
No, I was going to say again this has been great.
I think it's a really fruitfulconversation.
Scott, is there anything youwant to plug where people can
find you online, or anythingthat you're involved in?
Feel free.

Scott (47:46):
Yeah, look, come visit us at Network Automation Forum.
We'll be in Prague at the endof May 2025.
And I'm not just talking toeverybody.
I mean you, tim and Chris youneed to come and join us.
We'll be back in the US inNovember Location to be
determined soon, I hope andannounced.
And do me a favor and check outTotal Network Operations.

(48:09):
I'm really trying to putemphasis on helping elevate the
role of ops in networkorganizations and across IT.
Love to hear what you have tosay, any feedback and if you
have interesting folks you wantto recommend to come on that
show.
I'm all ears and if I canfollow up with any questions on
anything from this pod, reachout.

(48:31):
You know, get Scott Robon onLinkedIn.
That's the easiest way to findme.
Tim and Chris, it's beenawesome.
I really appreciate you havingme on.

Tim (48:38):
Oh, and, chris, it's been awesome.
I really appreciate you havingme on.
Oh, dude, it's been greathaving you.
We'll get all the links to theshows and everything in the show
notes and the NetworkAutomation Forum and everything
as well.
I would love to go to Prague.
I'll see if the wife's up forit, roger, I'll let you know.
All good, okay, so this is yeah.

(48:58):
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So, assuming you haven'talready actually I'm assuming if
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