The Grass Isn't Always Greener on the Entrepreneurial Side

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Entrepreneurship is often glorified as the ultimate career goal, but what happens when running your own business loses its luster? Jason Gintert takes us behind the scenes of his journey from corporate life to co-founding WAN Dynamics, and then back to the corporate world as CTO of Laketec.

The entrepreneurial path wasn't always smooth. "The first two years were kind of rough," Jason reveals, describing how his income dropped to half of his previous corporate salary and required significant belt-tightening at home. Even as the business grew, unexpected challenges emerged – from the stress of having employees depend on you for their livelihood to the constant cash flow battles when large clients took 60-90 days to pay invoices.

Perhaps most surprising was Jason's realization that business ownership didn't provide the freedom he expected. "It's a misconception that when you have a business, you're your own boss," he explains. "You report to your employees, your customers, your stakeholders – everybody who depends on you." Despite successfully growing the company and navigating the explosive demand for remote access solutions during COVID, Jason found himself increasingly forced into sales roles he didn't want.

After selling WAN Dynamics and briefly working for the acquiring company, Jason took four months to decompress before joining Laketec. His transition back to corporate life brought welcome relief – consistent schedules, healthcare benefits, and the ability to focus

Connect with Jason:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasongintert/

Purchase Chris and Tim's new book on AWS Cloud Networking: https://www.amazon.com/Certified-Advanced-Networking-Certification-certification/dp/1835080839/

Check out the Fortnightly Cloud Networking News
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkBWCGwXDUX9OfZ9_MvSVup8tJJzJeqrauaE6VPT2b0/

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Episode Transcript

Tim (00:14):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Cables to
Clouds podcast.
I'm your host this week, tim,and with me, of course, as usual
, is this guy over here whosename starts with a C and ends
with an S.

Chris (00:26):
Yes, actually I'm right in both cases.

Tim (00:28):
Chris Miles, I'm actually good, I'm actually good.
So, yes, ends with an S.
Chris Miles is here with me andof course, we have a guest with
us, jason Gintert, whose nameyou know if you're at all
involved with the US NetworkUser Group you've probably
already heard or know of.
But please, for everybody else,if you don't mind, go ahead and

(00:49):
introduce yourself, jason.
Welcome to the show, sure.

Jason (00:52):
Thanks, tim.
Yeah, it's nice to be here, andthank you too, chris.
So yeah, I'm Jason Ginnert.
I am one of the co-founders anda community organizer at the US
Networking User Association.
I'm also CTO at a companycalled Lake Tech.
We're a VAR and reseller basedout of Cleveland, and I think

(01:12):
today's topic we're going totalk a little bit about maybe
some of the things I've done inthe past too.
So I've been a founder of acompany, I've been a network
engineer for 20 some years now,years now and, um, you know,
been around the block but, youknow, super excited to get in
the.
I really want to talk aboutUSNUA and and then also, you
know, excited about the topic ofjust, you know, career

(01:34):
progression, different pathsthat one might take.
So yeah, thanks for having metoday guys Super, super excited
about it.

Tim (01:40):
Yeah, thanks, it's great to .
It's great to finally get youon there.
We've tried to schedule Jason afew times and it seems like
there's always some forcemajeure that gets in the way,
but we're happy that we canfinally get him on.
Actually, this is a great start.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe USNUA, because I'm sure we
have at least a few listenersthat may not be aware of it and

(02:01):
they probably should, andhopefully they can get involved
once they understand it.
So, yeah, tell us a little bitabout USNUA.

Jason (02:07):
Yeah, happy to.
So USNUA is a it's aprofessional group for network
engineering folk.
So we started out in Ohio I'mbased in Cleveland, ohio, and it
started out as ONUB, the OhioNetworking User Group, and it
was just some, you know, somelocal, regional guys.
We decided to get together andstart having these meetups

(02:29):
because we saw VMware, the vMugs, we saw Linux user groups,
there was all these differentuser groups, but there wasn't
really like a general networkingone.
There was vendor-specific ones,like there's like Fuel for Palo
Alto, and then there's Ciscouser groups, but there wasn't
like a general networkengineering group.
So we started in Cleveland,spread to Columbus and then

(02:54):
Cincinnati and Toledo, soeventually we were doing one
event per quarter, all aroundthe state, you know, and it
started to gain steam.
And then, and then COVIDhappened and during COVID we
started to try to do themvirtually over zoom and you know
it was, it was all right, butwe, you know, obviously we're
really looking forward to andlonging to get back to the

(03:14):
in-person events.
So that's when we decided, well, hey, maybe we can, maybe we
can recreate this, and we tooktime to think about all right,
well, you know, we're going toget back to being in person
someday.
So when that happens, maybewhat we can do is is take what
we've developed here in Ohio andstart to to to, you know,
chapterize it or, you know,create a template that is

(03:37):
recreatable, that we could taketo other other places, because
we did have interests from, like, you know, our adjacent states.
So people in Indiana were like,hey, how do I do this?
They, you know, end up comingto Ohio events or people from
Michigan, and they would they'dbe like, hey, can I do this
where I'm at too, and how do Ido it?
So we decided during COVID toreally create a what we called,

(04:00):
you know, our enablement packageto to help with that.
And then we, you know, westarted to actually build out an
organization, you know, anumbrella organization that could
have these regional networkinguser groups all over the place.
And you know, we started herein this region and it took us a
little while to get, get ourfeet underneath us and really

(04:21):
figure things out.
But you know, now we are at, Iwant to say, 37 chapters or so
that we're up to at this point.
I could be wrong about thatnumber.
Actually, our coordinatorsprobably know better than I do
where we're at these days, thatthe ones actually doing the work
and quarterbacking these events, but yeah so, and the way the
events usually look is theformat they usually take is, you

(04:44):
know, there's a local organizer, so there's a person in that
region who wants to get thiskicked off.
We have them find, kind of youknow, their twin, their pair to,
so they can, kind of you know,we can have two people helping
coordinate events.
The best combos are, like youknow, an account executive and a

(05:04):
sales engineer, because youknow what I mean, like, like the
engineers know, like the goodcontent and and you know how to
get the engineers out, but theaccount, uh, account executives
know how to throw an event.
You know what I mean they knowhow to like to pick out a spot
that's good and has good AV andgood food and good beer Beer is
an important part of it.
Um, so um, but the you know theevents usually run like like

(05:28):
happy hour and so these folks inthose that region try to deal,
identify a venue.
Um, the way that the nightusually flows is, um at least
this is kind of our template forsuccess is usually have someone
present on a technology.
We try to make it an opentechnology.
So a big thing about the USNUAevents is they're non-selling

(05:49):
events.
So you'll see that there'ssponsors who help pay for them,
but they're not going to showtheir products or their you know
their company.
It's going to be about, hey,this is VXLAN and how it works.
Or we've actually done what wecall the great debate, which is

(06:09):
a debate about layer two leafspine versus layer three leaf
spine in EVPN VXLAN, and we didit complete with podiums and a
moderator, and it was like areal legit debate that we've
done on election years, whichwas kind of fun.
And then we had a presentationabout like a large retail chain
that actually built their ownopen source router that they

(06:31):
deployed at 1600 stores, like itwas just.
It's just cool to have, youknow, a variety of different
presentations out there and havepeople tell tell stories in the
field, and then we kind of capthe night with like a panel
discussion and and and build onthat.
So it'll be four people that wetry to have a good mix.
Maybe someone from serviceprovider, maybe someone from a

(06:53):
bar, maybe someone fromenterprise.
But you know, folks talk abouttheir day-to-day lives and in in
network engineering, theproblems they encounter and the
things they're working on the,the technologies they're excited
about.
Yeah, and that's generally howit looks, and I mentioned before
that there's beer.
Beer is definitely an importantpart.
There's food as well, usually atthese events, and our team does

(07:13):
all the coordination.
So we just really, you know, wehave the local organizer find
the spot, make introductions toour team.
Our team really runs with it,uh, does the coordination, picks
out the food.
Um, you know, handles a lot ofthe backend work that really,
you know, makes uh, could, couldmake it difficult to run it on

(07:34):
your own.
We try to take as much of thatoff their plate as the as we can
.
I mean, obviously, there's onlythere's a few things that they
are going to have to do likescoping out the event spot and
you know, um, we also send outlike a, an event package where
they got to set up, um, certainthings, the event, but, um, yeah
, so that's, that's generallythe idea behind these.

(07:55):
I mean, we really just want toget the network engineering
community together, uh, inperson, um, and in region, to
get to know one another, youknow, and just a lot of great
things happen at these eventsfor sure.
I've been, I've been to anumber of them, so so yeah
that's the USNUA in a nutshell.

Tim (08:13):
Yeah, I went to either one or two years ago, I don't
remember now.
Uh, I went to the one in onethat was in Raleigh and, yeah,
it, it exactly what I used, howyou described it Right, I
actually ended up being apanelist on one of the on the.
I forget what it was.
We were talking about cloud,something I can't remember or it
was about AI.
Actually, I think it was aboutAI at that time.
Lots of them are about AI.
These days.

(08:35):
Yeah, it was about AI and kindof how we use it for networking.
But yeah, it was good though.
It was a great, great event, agreat chance to network without
networking, if you will, withwith your fellow engineers.
Learn a lot about people, justbecause, I mean, people don't
realize how, how, how tight thiscommunity actually is.
Like everybody really knowseverybody.

(08:57):
It's like not even six degreesfrom Kevin Bacon, it's like two
and a half if you're lucky, youknow.
So, yeah, it's great.

Jason (09:03):
They're great events half if you're lucky, you know.
So, yeah, it's great, they'regreat events, so true.
And I find, no matter where I'mat, this happened, you know, as
a phenomenon.
I noticed a lot in our backyard.
You'd go and you'd see someone.
You're like dude, I haven'tseen you in like 10 years.
Like how the hell are you doing?
And anywhere I go, I see thathappen again and again.
You know where these guys orpeople come together.
They've either worked togetheror maybe you know, one was a

(09:25):
customer and one was, you know,the vendor or whatever, but it's
just like a reconnection of somany people you know in these
regional environments.
So that's a cool aspect.
There's also been a lot of like.
It's a really good spot forpeople like trying to break into
the industry, to meet theirlocal peers, you know, and to
get some maybe advice from themor even find a role.

(09:48):
So we try to, at the beginningof the events, to ask, hey, is
anyone in the room hiring?
And then people will raisetheir hands and be like, yep, I
got a, I got a slot open.
This is what it looks like, andthen you can kind of make those
connections.

Tim (09:59):
That's really good yeah.

Jason (10:01):
It's, it's pretty cool.
So I mean there's lots of theseancillary effects that happen,
but I mean the most importantthing is just the connection, or
sometimes reconnection, youknow, with all those folks out
there.

Tim (10:13):
Definitely.
No, that's good.
I definitely recommend we'llmake sure we get the USNUA links
and stuff in the show notes forthis, in the show notes for
this, uh, because, yeah, Ihighly recommend it, uh, for any
of our listeners who are partof the networking.
You know, in some uh, somecapacity to to get involved and
hopefully, hopefully, there is achapter where you're at and if
not, um, you know this guy'sstill waiting to get, to get

(10:40):
over to australia someday,someday we're still still
tackling the tackling the us.

Jason (10:42):
I think that the most difficult thing you know still
tackling the, tackling the us.
I think that the most difficultthing you know about getting
outside of the states is justthat event coordination piece
and all the things that we needto do there.
You know for sure for sure.

Chris (10:54):
I mean every time I go to the states, to be honest, I do
have a look at the local uhnetwork user group and see if
there's anything scheduled, soI'll pop.
You know it's not my localcommunity half the time, but
still it's.
It's always fun to you know,converse and, like you said,
beer is very important.
Anywhere there's free beer,I'll probably be there, um, if I

(11:15):
can be.
So, yeah, it's fun time.

Tim (11:17):
Yeah, that brings everybody in All, right, um, okay, so
let's, let's let's move on towhat we wanted to do, kind of
our main event.
This is really good.
I just want to make sure wehave enough time for the main
event topic.
So we had Scott Raban on a fewweeks ago actually, we had him
on like a while back, but interms of publishing it might

(11:38):
have been a little longer, butyeah, so we wanted to.
So we had talked to Scott aboutbasically what, what prompted
him to leave his corporate joband start his own business and
also, you know, basically howdid that, how did that go, how
did he make the decision, howdid essentially, how did it work
for him and how did he figureout that he could do it and how
did he make it successful.

(11:59):
So that was a really goodepisode.
A lot of really goodinformation there from Scott.
Now, jason, I know you, you know, had done what Scott did at
some point and you had actuallyleft corporate, started your own
business and done it for quitea while, actually Right.
And then recently, justrecently, you actually went back
.
Like you said, you're now doinga CTO role for a VAR.

(12:20):
So what I thought would bereally interesting is to
understand, kind of like, theother side of the coin.
Uh, not to not to be negativeabout what you know mostly what
sucks about running your ownbusiness, necessarily but to
also you know still but, but,but to still get some
information about like, okay,well, there's really good things
about running your business,especially the freedom and the

(12:41):
fact that you generally can'tlay yourself off.
But you know there's there'sobviously other considerations
there.
So you know, I just, yeah,let's just start there.
Like you, you know you said itlike eight years I think.
You said you were running yourown business and then one day
you weren't, you decided thatyou kind of had enough of it for
now.
So so kind of walk us throughfirst of all, what made you jump

(13:03):
in the first place to startyour own business, maybe just
briefly, and then, yeah, let'stalk about what running your own
business is like there.

Jason (13:10):
Sure, yeah, happy to go through it.
So I had worked at a serviceprovider for 13 years and based
in Cleveland, and was reallyhappy with that job.
But then that company gotacquired.
And I'm sure you guys know howthat goes when companies get
acquired.
Sometimes things change and thenew know I gave it an honest

(13:30):
shot, you know, I gave it, gaveit a good six months, but during
the time while I was there, Iwas kind of exploring what my
options were.
I would, I just turned 40 andand I'd always thought about
maybe starting my own thing.
And, um, then my friend actually, who I've known, we we've
worked together Um, so the thecompany we ended up co-founding

(13:51):
together.
That was like the fourth timewe'd worked together.
So he hired me at my first dialup tech support job and then I
brought him over to a place,then he brought me over to a
place and then, you know, wejust kind of stayed in touch
forever, um, yeah, exactly,networking and networking.
Um, but know, we just kind ofstayed in touch forever
Networking, yep, exactlyNetworking and networking.
But he, he's like you know, Istarted telling him about this
thing called SDWin.

(14:12):
I'm like man, I think that thisis going to be a big deal Like
in 2015,.
We'd have lunch and I wastalking about it.
I'm like, I think, like youknow, there's some people who
thought it was a fad, and youknow how it goes when that stuff
, that stuff's coming up likeit's tough to tell, like is this
real or not?
And and I used it, and Iremember that I specifically

(14:32):
used, like like velo cloud and II I remember, you know,
plugging in two circuits andunplugging like the main one,
and it just like failing overand like I was like I didn't
leave.
I dropped like one ping, like Idon't, I've never seen anything
like this.
It just kind of blew my mind andI was telling him about it.
He's like, why don't we juststart a company to deploy this
and manage it?
We could do that.
I'm like, yeah, maybe we could.

(14:53):
And I was still interviewingaround, still exploring my
options, but then he talked meinto it.
He's like, let's go for it, man.
And so then we incorporated.
And it was actually weincorporated like four months
before I actually left the job,so I was still there, but we
were trying to, you know, sidehustle and and get a get our
first customer, cause I didn'twant to like jump off with no
revenue, you know.

(15:14):
So, we did.
We landed up a pretty nice sizeretailer, um, where, where we
could be consultants.
It wasn't like an SDWANopportunity yet, it was just
consulting, but then that was it.
I mean, we were kind of off tothe races, I you know, and then
I put in my notice and it wasjust the two of us at first, so
I mean the way, the way that itworked out actually from the

(15:34):
beginning till the end of therelationship that I did a lot of
the.
I did like all the engineering,sales solutions, architecture,
all that stuff was all like it,all me.
And then he was kind of back ahouse so he did it, dealt with
all the billing and all that.
You know all the stuff thatbasically I didn't want to, I'm
not good at, nor nor do I wantto deal with it, um, so, but he
was very good at it and liked it, so it was a.

(15:55):
It was a, you know, it was agood partnership.
So, um, yeah, we started off in2016 and, I'm not gonna lie, the
first two years were kind ofrough.
I mean, it was like you knowmaking, you know making half of
the money I did before.
All right.
Then then I did in like 2015,in 2016 maybe got it up to a you
know a little more than half,and in in 2017, but it was still

(16:18):
.
It was tight.
You know, it was like, you know, had to, had to really tighten
the belt at home and, and youknow, say hey, there's certain
things that we, we just can'tafford.
While, while we're ramping up,yeah, so that that was.
That was.
Yeah, that was definitely adifficult part of that.

Tim (16:32):
Yeah, so actually this is a good point.
So I mean, obviously theramping up portion probably is
the hardest.
It's both the hardest and thelongest part to to get working
Right.
And I assume that's what you'retalking about when you say that
you know it took a little whileto.
You know you're making half ofwhat you made at the previous
job.
So yeah, how did you?
How did you like?

(16:52):
I mean, obviously you went andyou just started consulting,
like I'm curious, did you justlike ads in the newspaper?
Like how were you finding?
How were you finding it was?

Jason (17:01):
it was my personal network.
So in my previous role I'd beenin engineering but I'd kind of
moved over to solutionsarchitecture.
Well, back then salesengineering, now it's solutions
architecture.
But so I got to meet a lot ofpeople in the industry and I
just kind of started to go outand ask people do you need help
with anything?
Do you need help with anyprojects or do you have anything

(17:23):
going on?
And it was really just at firstjust a consulting hustle, just
hey, can I help you with anyprojects on an hourly basis?
But juggling that, you knowit's tough.
And the other thing is, youknow, if there's anything I've
learned that the larger theorganization, the more difficult
it is to get paid.
So it's just you know, when yousubmit an invoice and there's a

(17:45):
lot of people who go off tostart their own thing that think
like you just submit an invoiceand you get paid I'll be the
first to tell you like that'snot.
That's usually not how ithappens, and it's usually the
larger the organization they are, the more difficult it is to.
And it's I don't think it'sanybody's being malicious or
anything, it's just they'relarge.

(18:05):
Yeah, exactly, largeinstitutions with a lot of
bureaucracy and things getcaught up and you know when
you're expecting, when you'reputting, like you know, 15, 30
day terms on your invoice, butyou're taking 60 or 90 days to
get paid, which is the realityat some of these places.
Um, it's just kinda yeah, it's,it can be tough.
So, I mean, that's one of thefirst things I would say.
I think that's like one ofthose things that that with

(18:30):
running your own, your owncompany is like managing
cashflow.
It's just, it's a it's a it'ssomething you're always having
to deal with.
So I mean, that's kind of whatwas the reality for us at the
beginning and, like I said, itwas like a larger company we
work with.
And I mean, once you got into agroove I think everything was
cool.
But you know, whenever you'dbring on a new customer you're

(18:50):
always kind of feeling eachother out and trying to figure
out.
You know how this works and allthat, but that was one thing I
learned really early.
And then you know, that was onething I learned really early.
So, and then you know, as timegoes on, you're still trying to
ramp that cash flow up, but youalso need more resources to grow
, you know.
So we actually ended up hiringour first employee in early 2017

(19:10):
.
And dude, I like I'm not, I'mnot kidding, like I lost sleep
about that.

Tim (19:14):
I'm like About having somebody depending on you for.

Jason (19:19):
Correct.
Yeah, this dude like relying onme for a paycheck, like because
when it was just me and mypartner, like it was like eh,
who cares?
Like we're both in thistogether, it's not a big deal.
Like we both know the risks andwe're willing, well, and your
owners right.

Tim (19:30):
So your stake is higher and yeah, like it's yeah exactly so
.

Jason (19:35):
Then then we hired this first guy.
And it was funny because it'slike a competitive situation,
like he was thinking abouttaking another job and I'm like
no dude, you really need to comeover here.
And we talked him into it.
And then I'm like, wait, likewhat if that doesn't work out?
And I just talked him out ofthat job and like there's all
this stuff going on in my, in mymind, but I was really I to be
able to run a little faster.
Then, um, then it became easier.

(20:01):
And that second employee thatwe hired, it was like it was
just like okay, now I know howthis goes, and like we could
just get that guy in and we canjust keep going.
So, um, so yeah.
Then then you know, I would saylike those first two years were
rough.
The next two it started to kindof level out and and and like
we started to get, you know,some traction.
The SD-WAN started to take offtoo.
So it was.

(20:21):
It took a little while,especially we're we're in Ohio.
Like Ohio is kind of a it's avery like conservative sort of
mindset in Ohio, like nobodyreally wants to stick their neck
out and take a chance onsomething new.
So it took us a little.
It took, you know, sd-wanbecoming a little more
mainstream for it to finally gettraction.

Tim (20:42):
So that's true, yeah, and that is right around the time,
yeah, when it really startedbecoming a household name, if
you will like.
Before it was kind of what isthis?
And you know, is it like yousaid, is it a fad or whatever?
And then, yeah, I remember Iwas working at Cisco, started
there in 2016.
And, yeah, like right around2017, like I think it was right

(21:03):
around that.
I mean, cisco had been pushingIWAN for a few years before that
as an SD-WAN and technicallyaccurate, it's an SD-WAN, but
although it's super complicatedright, it was because it was so
freaking complicated that peopleweren't adopting it.
I think you know you rememberthe book that's like 30 inches
thick or whatever but, yeah, thetruly commoditized solution as

(21:25):
a solution, I think SD-WAN, yeah, like right around that time,
really started taking off.

Jason (21:30):
Definitely did.
Yeah, and we had, you know, werepped Velo, a few different
platforms so we had, like Tulareand which a lot of people don't
know who Tulare is.
It's an interesting little sidestory.
Tulare was eventually bought byOracle, but they were really
the first ones to really developSD-WAN and that's actually the

(21:52):
chief architect of VeloCloudcame from Tulare.

Tim (21:54):
Oh, interesting.

Jason (21:55):
And he kind of took what he learned Like the difference,
and just kind of took what helearned like the the difference,
um, and just a kind of like alike, kind of a nerdy, like a uh
inside okay, on, on, you knowkind of how that came to be
talari, really, the, the controlplane was in in the boxes so
you can only scale so far.
They all kind of knew like thestate of the network.
And then what, what veloclouding.

(22:16):
Well, craig figured out andtook the velo cloud is if you
decouple that control plane, youput it in the cloud, it scales
as big as you want.

Tim (22:22):
Yeah, that's right.

Jason (22:23):
And that's what he did, and then the cloud gateways and
all the cool stuff that they did.
So you know it was.
It was a you know VeloCloud was.
I still feel like it's a reallygreat product.
I don't know if you guys haveseen the of the murmurs about it
maybe going to Arista, so kindof excited about that.

Tim (22:39):
We just recorded the news yesterday and that was one of
our stories we were talkingabout, so I am interested to see
yeah, I think we're both veryinterested to see what Arista
does with it Ultimately.
Are they going to integrate it,Are they going to hold it at
arm's length like Meraki style,or what are they going to do
with it?

Jason (22:54):
Yeah, that'll be interesting Because I mean, I
don't never really see themintegrate anything into like
their EOS code base.
It's usually like they keep itseparate.
If they're going to, they don'ttry to do like Cisco did with
like the sidecar thing, likethat they did with iOS and
SD-WAN, you know which.
In a lot of ways, I feel likethat's what hindered that
product.

(23:14):
You know a lot.
I think they should have just,you know, done the work, made it
native and and it would havebeen okay.
But that that like having tosidecar it then having to
refactor to make it native later, like it, just that was kind of
a mess.

Tim (23:30):
Yeah, so I worked at Cisco at that time and there was a
pretty hot internal debate aboutwhether we should just let
fiptela keep innovating and likedelivering, or but they just
put a stop to it essentially forlike a year and a half and all
like all the competitors at thatpoint caught up feature-wise
and and the ios xc still didn'twork at that point, so it was a

(23:51):
little bit of a problem I meanthey did let it run on its own
for a little while, right?

Chris (23:55):
because I mean, yeah, when you first bought it, yeah,
you could still buy the V-Edge.

Tim (24:00):
At that point.
Yeah, that's because theydidn't have iOS XE right, but
they stopped development onViptela as a product so that
they could integrate it into theiOS XE trains.
So like all the features thatVelo, that Viptela had on the
roadmap, like basically justdidn't happen, right.

Jason (24:19):
Yeah, it was that whole V edge versus C edge.
You know, you started out withV edge, which was the native
platform.
To your point, chris, they did.
They did start out that way andand I we had a lot of customers
that were kind of hybrids, sothey had a lot of old V edge
stuff and then they kind ofswitched to C edge over time and
, um, that was that was just awild ride seeing that whole
transition, Because Viptela wasa big deal and then, just like

(24:41):
you said, tim, it seemed likethey put the brakes on product
development-wise, all newfeatures stopped and everything
stopped to kind of cram it intoan ISR and then it just I don't
know, they lost a lot ofmomentum there.

Tim (24:55):
That's what I mean.
Yeah, exactly.

Chris (24:57):
And then there was a brief period in time where you
could order the routers and youthey lost a lot of momentum
there.
I feel like that's what I mean.
Yeah, exactly, and that's wellsorry.
And then there was a briefperiod in time where you could
order the routers and youspecified whether you wanted to
get running XE or running theViptela OS, and that was fun.

Tim (25:10):
That's when I learned that, like one model, they had one
model for that.

Chris (25:13):
Yeah, exactly it was like the 1100 or something like that
.
But like the 1100 or somethinglike that.
But yeah, and then that's whatit was.
Yeah, half the time it was notdelivered with the os that I
wanted because we were trying todo the viptela os.
But you know, I digress, let'smove on.
Yeah one.

Tim (25:27):
One thing I will say is that the v edges were, uh, the v
edge, like the 100s or whatever, the little white boxes oh,
they were all white boxes fromviptela really, but like the
little ones, uh, theirthroughput was absolutely
atrocious, like that was the.
That was.
That was one of the things thatCisco like.
So Cisco it might and I don'tmean to make this like an SD-WAN
episode, it's not but in myopinion, cisco should have kept

(25:48):
selling Viptela while peoplewanted it and were using it and
already invested in the hardware, but they should have also, at
the same time, been trying toget it on the next generation of
ISRs, so that, I think, wouldhave worked better.

Jason (26:01):
Agree, agree, and look at the success they had with
Meraki.
Like I think, meraki is thebest thing that Cisco's ever
bought, in my opinion, like it'sjust steady, eddie, and they
just left it alone.
It just keeps running, keepsdoing its own thing, and I mean
I think now they're starting tointegrate some of the products
years later, but I mean theyjust let them keep rolling.

(26:22):
And you're right, I think theyshould have done the same thing
with Viptela.
So I hope.
All that to say, I hope Aristadoes the right thing for
VeloCloud and just keeps kind ofthe tech you know its own thing
and keeps on rolling.
It's really great stuff, but Iguess that's actually a good
segue into some of the otherthings that we got into in.
WAN Dynamics because we did alot of Arista stuff too.

(26:43):
So if we were still doing thewhole WAN Dynamics thing today
we'd be like hell.
Yeah, like Fellow's going to bepart of Arista, that's great.
Like you know, marriage of twovendors we were already working
with, but yeah.
So I mean I guess you know kindof getting back to the journey,
you know things in that middlepart really, you know we're

(27:05):
pretty sweet, we were growing,we were adding more team members
.
You know, covid was a crazytime.
We actually we had explosivegrowth during that time, though
Interesting.
Because, everybody wasscrambling to figure out their
remote access solution oh, yeah,yeah, yeah Okay.
So we sold and helped integratea lot of cloud-based remote

(27:29):
access stuff.

Tim (27:30):
Of course.

Jason (27:31):
We were Apollo resellers, so we did a lot of Prisma
access and helped people getonboarded onto that to handle it
, or we would, you know, bebuying licenses and deploying
them.
I mean, during the first, itwas like in 2020, in the spring,
when things really kicked off.
It was like it got quiet for alittle bit and then, like right
around this time five years ago,like in May, it just started

(27:53):
going nuts.
People were like because theyrealized, okay, yeah, are we are
in this for a little while.
We need to, we need to get aplan together and everybody just
started, you know, likeexecuting on stuff that they'd
been thinking about for a whileyou know, as far as like work
from home and you know, workfrom anywhere, sort of uh sort
of deployments, but they, theyjust, you know, push down the

(28:16):
gas pedal on that stuff.
And so we actually had were ourengineers were doing, like three
to five maintenance windows aweek, just you know, doing
upgrades, applying licenses,putting in new boxes, like it
was just constant.
We gave everybody like a, youknow a five percent bump during
that time.
Be like, just stick it out,like we're all gonna, you know,
we're all in this together,we're're all going to make it Um

(28:38):
and and it and we did.
And it was weird because itthen it quieted, quieted down
you know, after everybody wantsus to play exactly and
everybody's working and on thereon the new stuff they're
working remotely.
Then it was like quiet for alittle bit after that and then
because I think everybody waswaiting to see what was going to
happen, you know we kept busythrough that period and then

(28:59):
after and it was going great fora long time but then the SD-WAN
market kind of got saturated,the managed SD-WAN market.

Tim (29:08):
It really did.

Jason (29:09):
And it got tougher and tougher to compete as, like, an
over-the-top provider, like ifwe weren't able to bundle it
with something else because youhad a lot of the carriers out
there taking SD-WAN and bundlingwith other stuff like circuits
and voice and all this otherstuff that we didn't sell.

Tim (29:24):
Yeah, like Verizon and stuff.
Yeah, yeah, verizon.

Jason (29:26):
Windscreen AT&T, and some were positioning it as a loss
leader.
So they were like eitherselling it at cost or selling it
so cheap, because they wantedall of the business, they wanted
to get the circuits and thevoice and they could do these
package deals that we couldn'tdo, and so it was getting
tougher to compete from thatstandpoint.
And you know I'd mentioned someof the challenges with growing

(29:51):
a company and you know then youalso have to think about, you
know, fueling that growth andyou know, borrowing money and
all the stuff that comes withthe day to day of running a
business.
And you know I've been friendswith, you know my partner, for a
long time.
I think we'll be friends for along time to come, like we've

(30:13):
known each other since 1999,like 26 years of being friends.
Other since since 1999, like 26years of being friends.
But you know, there was a pointwhere we started to disagree on
how the how to go forward.
You know it's tough.
Yeah, I mean, we had.
So, you know, probably abouttwo years ago, we started to
look at the makeup of thebusiness and go well, you know,

(30:35):
in order to grow this, we'reeither going to have to, you
know, pour more money into it ormake some changes.
And you know, I think wediffered on how that growth
strategy was going to work.
Like we just we just thoughtabout it differently and we
decided to come together andcome up with a plan, like, say,
to say okay, like we're going togo forward with this plan and
if this doesn't work, then thenwe'll have to figure something

(30:56):
else out.
Actually, at the time, I hadstarted to become a little bit
disenfranchised with thebusiness too, and it was just
getting.
It was going to be tough on meand so I gave it that.

Tim (31:05):
Well, it's stress, right?
Yeah, I mean obviously.

Jason (31:08):
It was.
It was and I hate to say it,but in some ways I started to
become disinterested in my role.
I to become disinterested in,like my role, like I'd always
gotten forced into being thesales guy and I didn't want to
be the sales guy.
And it turns out just findinggood salespeople is really hard
and building a good salesculture is really hard.
We were super good atengineering and operations Like

(31:29):
we were.
We could, we could execute allday.
But what we couldn't do wasjust like and we were good at
selling into our existing basebecause they all loved like.
When we had a customer onbecause we were so good at
operations and engineering, theyloved us.
The problem was we were.
We were terrible about tellingthe world about ourselves.

Tim (31:45):
You know what I mean.

Jason (31:45):
So like selling to the outside world, marketing and
sales and getting new customers.
Like we just sucked at it, wejust were, we just could not get
that right and we kept tryingnew sales people and new sales
strategies and and we kepttrying new sales people and new
sales strategies and it alwayskept landing on me and I'm like
and people would tell me likehey, but you're great at sales.
I'm like, but I don't.

Tim (32:03):
I don't want to do sales.
You know what I mean it's like.

Jason (32:08):
It's like, um, you know, I equated it to like, you know,
let's say you're like seven foottall and everyone's like, hey,
you should play basketball.
Like yeah, but maybe not everyperson who's seven foot tall
wants to play basketball.
You know what I mean.
Like like, I may have some ofthe attributes that to, to you
know, be decent at sales, butit's not.
It's not what I want to do dayin, day out.
It's not like I don't want tolike, sit there and manage a

(32:28):
sales team and drive a pipeline,and you know what I mean yeah,
totally get it totally not in mydna.
So, like we just couldn't makeit work and I just was getting
frustrated with that keptfalling to me, so decided to
give it like this 18 month planto see if we could pull it
together.
We tried a new sales leader.
It didn't work out and it wasjust kind of like, okay, it's
time to call it.
So you know, my partner and Idecided, um, you know it's,

(32:51):
either you know we're gonna haveto like buy one of us, one of
the other is gonna buy eachother out, or, you know, do we
look for a buyer?
Like, how do you go about likeexiting?
It's right we were actually 50,50 partners.
So it's that's a challengingthing, um, so you know, um.
So we went through a processand and, and decided, okay, like

(33:11):
I think that the best course ofaction for us is actually to
exit the business.
Um, and so we took it to market.
We ended up buying a buyer, uh,and then my, then my partner
decided he's like I'm not, Idon't want to go with the you
know whoever's buying.

Tim (33:23):
Oh, yeah, yeah, you don't want to stay with a buyer, okay,
sure.

Jason (33:26):
He's.
Actually he runs the USNUA.
That's his baby now, like hehe's.
So we did that together, um, wekind of co-founded it together.
Uh, and along with there'sthere's a few local people who
who assisted as well.
The.
The local Arista team here inin in Ohio is awesome and those
guys helped build it.
Um and um.
Uh, he just went to run thatfull time and I went over.

(33:49):
I actually went with theacquiring company and, um, and
you know, gave it a shot to workfor them.
Unfortunately, that did notwork work out and I ended up
leaving.

Tim (33:58):
You know my role there it's probably hard to you know this,
this business you've built andyou wanted to sell it Right.
But, like now that you've soldit, you probably have still had
strong opinions about thingsthat were happening in the.
You know in the business that Itotally get it.

Jason (34:14):
Absolutely.
You nailed it.
Like there was just so manythings about that I was so
opinionated about.
I'm like you can't do that.
You got to do it this way andand then the the other thing was
just like.
It was like having three jobs,cause it was like they put me in
a new role.
It was like heading up thesolution architecture team, but
they also had like pretty muchall my old roles too, you know,
because like that stuff wasn'tgoing away.

(34:34):
We still largely operated asthe same company inside this new
company, but then I was alsohad additional responsibilities.
I also had to travel a bunch, soI I got yeah, I got United
Platinum last year Cause I, youknow, I had 40 legs and I, I, um
, I just burned out.
I was like I can't like.

Chris (34:51):
I'm done.

Jason (34:52):
I was already kind of the point of burning out with just
wind dynamics and then that justkind of added fuel to the fire
when, when we with just winddynamics, and then that just
kind of added fuel to the firewhen, when we, we sold to that
company.
So I mean, no dis on them,great company.
I wish them the best.
It just wasn't.
It was.
It was a bad time for me.
Um, it was, um, it was a hardexperience and um, you know,
yeah, I mean no regrets aboutabout any of the decisions we

(35:12):
made.
Um, but it was just a.
It was a tough time.
So I decided to take some timeoff.
I took about four months off.
The first two months I reallyjust decompressed.
I didn't do anything.
It was in December, it wasright around the holidays Good
timing, yeah.
Just hung out with family anddecompressed.

(35:32):
I was barely on my laptop ordoing anything during that time,
just really recovering fromprevious years experience.
And then I just started tothink about, like what's next?
What do I want to do?
Do I want to start something ordo I want to work for someone?
And I weighed that for a longtime and I ended up.

(35:53):
You know, bits and flight issomething I incorporated before,
so it's actually an LLC that Ihave.
And I thought to myself I'mlike I could just take this LLC,
create a company out of it, dosome consulting, do whatever I
want with it.
It might be a great option.
But then I started to thinkabout the early days of wind

(36:15):
dynamics.
I started to think about the,the ramp and the building and
the stress and the chasing billsand and all that stuff.
And and this time it was justI'm on my own.
It's not like last time.
I had, at least, you know, apartner and he could take some
of the stuff that he was good at, and I could take some of the
stuff I'd be at this time around.
Granted, I've learned a lot andI could probably do some of

(36:37):
that stuff.
But, Andy, I suppose I mean, ifI even made enough money at it,
I could, I could hire people todo some of these things.
But I don't know.
When I thought about it I waslike, maybe I just want to get a
job, you know, maybe I justwant to.
There's something to be saidabout, you know, health care.
That just kind of comes as abenefit, and know cause.

Tim (36:56):
You know like buying healthcare not under you know,
not having an underemployer,it's very expensive, it's
extremely expensive in the U Sat least.

Jason (37:07):
Yeah, definitely true, it's.
It's just so.
When I was like eyeing that upand then the kind of the stress
of building something and likegetting all that going again, I
was just like I really want tofind someone to work for.
Um and Lake tech.
Um, uh, fantastic company thatI've I've known for a long time.
It's actually 36 year oldcompany this year.
They started out in PBXs andthen they've they've evolved

(37:27):
into it services and they'vedone all kinds of cool stuff
over the years.
Um, and I've always I've knownthem, admired them from afar.
I always thought that it justgot to talking with them about
their vision and, and, crazyenough, like they're kind of

(37:48):
picking up where wind dynamicsleft off in a lot of ways.
Um, just their, their visionand the strategy for the company
.
So got really excited aboutthat.
And, um, uh, at first I youknow it was tough cause I was
like I don't know if I want tobe someone's.
I just gone through, you know,having somebody else be my boss
last year.
I don't, I and I, I reallythought about this way, like I

(38:11):
don't, I don't want to feelowned.
You know, at this point I've,I've, I.
For eight years I've done it onmy own and or not on my own,
and we had a great team ofpeople.
I can't take credit for all ofit at you know by by no means.

Tim (38:23):
I know what you mean, though, when you say that though
, like literally, like you ownedyour own destiny, not, someone
wasn't telling you what to do,right, yeah, I get it, yeah
exactly Exactly.

Jason (38:33):
So, um, so that was it was.
It was like tough to come togrips with and we went back and
forth and but eventually they,they swayed me, they, they, they
, uh, convinced me to, to take achance.
So so I'm at Lake tech now andthere are some things to be said
.
You know, like, like I, I mean,I guess one of the the uh
things I've had to adjust to isbeing in the office.
So I haven't been in the officefor, like you know, eight, nine

(38:56):
years yeah, a long time.
And so now I'm in the office.
At first it was like five daysa week, I'm like about three, so
we worked that out.
The cool thing is they werereally flexible and willing to
work with me on that.
So, but you know, I'm going tothe office, which is great.
I mean, I actually do reallylike the in-person experience

(39:18):
and the camaraderie and workingalongside your peers and being
in the office together.
It's a cool thing.

Chris (39:27):
Yeah, there's definitely something to be said for it.
It's something I'm doing withmy recent job that I started and
it's nice.
I've been remote for like thelast like nine years, so just
having the option of going intothe office was not even there
for me for a long time, but it'snice.
I don't want to be back in fivedays a week, but it's nice to

(39:47):
have the option.

Jason (39:48):
I am right there with you .
Yeah, like I said, I gave it ashot.
I think that the first coupleof weeks I was like let's back
this up, back this down a littlebit.
But I completely agree with you, it's, there's something about
the option in person.
Yeah, exactly it is, it reallyis so.
So, yeah, so that's, it's beengreat.
I really enjoy, um, you know,working somewhere like my work
day can end at five.

(40:09):
I don't have to deal with alllike the the really tough
decisions anymore.
They don't really roll up to me, there's someone else who does
that and I can just focus ondoing my job.
So I got this, the cto role,which is really the role I
really wanted to have at waynedynamics but just never really
was was allowed to you know whatI mean.
Like I really there were just somany things that you get pulled

(40:30):
into as an owner of a companyor co-owner of a company that
you just don't have a choice.
You've got to make a call andsome of those things were really
hard to do and it was usuallyaround like personnel or
customers Usually like thetoughest calls were related to
people, you know, and it waslike like just things would
happen and you'd be like man, Idon't want to, I don't want to

(40:52):
make this decision, but I haveto, whether it was like lack of
performance from a person, likeit just wasn't working out, or
somebody was going throughsomething difficult in their
personal life and you had to,like, fill the hole from them
being gone.
But you, you know, you suckedit up and did it, but it still
sucked.
You know there's, there's justall those things that happen,
that that it's just, it's toughwhen, when the buck stops at you

(41:16):
, you know, and that that wasultimately, I guess, not having
some of that stuff, I can.
I can focus on the day-to-day,day-to-day gig and and hopefully
do a good job at the end of theday.

Chris (41:26):
Yeah, so we've we've kind of talked at length with with
you as well as with Scott, aboutyou know kind of the difficult
pieces, about you know, beforeyou go out on your own and start
your own business right, a lotof the planning that you have to
do and things like that youknow, moving back into your
quote unquote corporate job.
Was there anything else thatyou found difficult kind of

(41:47):
going, going back into that roleor into that kind of world of
you know having a boss andthings like that, or was it
purely just a mindset shift togo back into that space?

Jason (41:57):
No, there was.
I think that the thing that Istruggle most with is like,
though it's a relief not to havethe final say, sometimes it
sucks not having the final sayabout certain things.
You know, when you have astrong opinion about something,
it's not your call anymore, soyou have to, you know, let loose
of that.
Um, so I, I did, I did strugglewith that transition a little

(42:17):
bit.
There's been a couple of timeswhere you know, I, I, I had to
to uh realize, like this is notmy call, it's there, it's, you
know, ultimately it's theirdecision.
Um, so I think that that's oneof the difficult things, um, the
other thing is, um, justknowing, like I don't have the
institutional knowledge of thisplace.
It's a 36 year old place, right?

(42:38):
So like just understanding whereeverything is and how to get
things done.
And it's, you know, it's not.
It's you know they're around 50people that work there, so it's
not not huge, but it's not,it's not tiny.
So there's, you know, justgetting to know everybody and
how things work and and beacquainted with all those things

(42:58):
.
I guess it's all the naturalstuff that you'd have with
starting a new job.
But I'm still figuring out alot of those things.
When you get into a positionlike that, like the CTO role,
you want to make an impact, youwant to come in and you want to
make changes, but at the sametime you have to take a step
back and really evaluate theenvironment and what they

(43:18):
already have, because you mightcome in with these things you
think are bright ideas, butthere might be reasons why they
can or can't do.
That you know right off the rip.
So I guess, just getting rampedup and understanding the
environment and trying to makesmart choices about changes to
implement off the bat, but youknow again at the same time,

(43:43):
like you might make thoserecommendations and they might
not want to do it.
So sometimes that you know,depending on on uh, what, what
you're trying to accomplish.

Chris (43:51):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I guess at the sametime, if it's not your decision,
it's also not your fault, right?
So you get to that's a goodpoint.

Jason (44:04):
That's a good point.
I, I totally get that I wouldsay I told you so or anything.
But yeah, you're right.

Tim (44:11):
Yeah, totally get that.
No, this has been good and it'sgood to know.
You know, like running yourbusiness I think running your
own business is just hard, right.
Like not everybody's meant todo it, not everybody has the
chops Like I would rather bejust like you, right.
Like if I was going to run myown business I'd have to find
somebody who wanted to do thepayroll and the you know, it's

(44:33):
all the business stuff that Iknow for a fact.
I just would really suck atit's hard, right, it's hard.
And there's also that constantpressure.
I mean, I'm not telling youanything, jason, I'm just saying
out loud.
I think there's this constantpressure to grow as a business.
Right Like, there's.
No, you know you're, and it'sjust.
I think it's societal to somedegree as well.
Right Like, you just have tokeep getting bigger, you have to

(44:53):
keep making more money, youhave to.
You know that's what successlooks like in a business and
that's hard, right, I thinkthat's that's also very hard.

Jason (45:00):
Yeah, you're right, and you know I said before I didn't
have any regrets, but maybe I dohave a regret around, maybe not
facing that mindset and maybebeing happy with a modest amount
of growth.
I think we'd grown a lotquickly early on, especially
during that COVID phase, and wegrew a lot during that time and

(45:21):
then, when the growth started todry up a couple years ago, we
were still able to keep thelights on.
You know, we were still therewas, but there was a lot of, and
that was, you know, somethingwe had to deal with too, with
like there was a lot ofsentiment in the company Like
we're go, like we're going underbecause it was slow.
You know it was slow.
And then you start to like,like you get a lot of people

(45:42):
that are just concerned withlike well, I'm not seeing new
orders, so we must be going outof business.
But that wasn't the case.
Like we were, we were flat, weweren't growing, but we were um,
you know.

Tim (45:53):
But we were shrinking either, really right.

Jason (45:55):
Exactly.
We were just kind of flat andwe were able to pay the bills
because fortunately it was amonthly recurring service
offering.
We had a managed service and itwas a we were able to cover our
expenses and it wasn't a bigdeal.
But we had a lot of idle peoplejust wondering what the hell's
going on.
And you're right that's tough,it's tough to figure out, to
solve that problem and to keepeverybody sane and rowing in the

(46:17):
right direction and all ofthose things.
Because it's just, yeah, it isa tough balance because you will
have those seasons in thebusiness where things change,
the market changes, or you getto a certain size revenue wise,
where things change for you,whether it's, you know, tax
implications or the way you doaccounting or, um, or the way

(46:40):
you borrow money.
There's just all of that stuffand you have to have this, you
know, hopefully a really goodteam of professionals around you
to help you with, advise you onthose things.
But it's just, it's a constant,it's it's constant, it's just
there's always something youknow.

Tim (46:56):
So and that's that's the one thing that's probably
attractive about, you know,going back to corporate life is
that at least you don't have tojuggle.
It's not going to be like everyday there's going to be a new
kick, a new kick to the teeth todeal with.
So I get that.

Jason (47:12):
Yeah, and that is, there's consistency.
You know like I can look at mycalendar and know generally what
my day is going to look like,whereas before my day could have
been blown up by a situationthat's like no one else can deal
with this.
So you deal with it.
You know that's.
It's a misconception.
I think, um, that a lot ofpeople have that.
That people think, oh, that'sgreat.

(47:33):
You know, when you, when youhave a, uh, a business, you're
your own boss, you're actuallyyour employees.
You know you, you you have toreport to your employees, you
report to your customers, yourstakeholders, your stake.
Yeah, the stakeholders areultimately your boss, which is
everybody you know, reallyeverybody who depends on you.
Yeah, well said.

Chris (47:57):
In some instances, your own tack as well, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Jason (48:01):
everything you know it's just becomes a lot of
responsibilities.
The bigger you get, the morecustomers you have, the more
employees you add, the morevendors you add.
All of that stuff just startsto compound.
So yeah, it certainly can betrying.
I'm not saying it's not withoutits merits.
It really is nice to have acompany that you earn a check

(48:22):
from.
If you're fortunate enough thatthere's extra profit, you get
dividends or S-corpdistributions, so those things
are nice.
you could probably get a companycar and you know there's,
there's all these tax stuff andall that exactly like like tax
write-offs were for certainstuff, like there's there's a
lot of nice things to come withit, but it's.
There definitely are sometrade-offs.

(48:42):
So I don't want to make it seemlike all doom and gloom, but
you do have to to have a thickskin, like you're going to have.
You're going to go through sometimes where things suck and
you're just going to have tosuck it up and just get through
it.
Um and that's that's just yeah,that's just part of it.

Tim (49:01):
That's great.
I think that's a really goodplace to uh, to, to, to cut it
because, uh, I think I don'tthink there's anything.
Knowing that you can getthrough it, I think is good.
So, all right, I'll go aheadand wrap it up here.
Jason, any first of all, one oftwo things, right?
Well, first of all, any finalthoughts, and second of all,
where can people find you on theinterweb?

Jason (49:22):
I really appreciate you guys having me on and I'm glad
we made it happen.
So last time you mentionedthere's like a force, what do
you say?
Force majeure?
And it literally was a flood atmy house that prevented me from
coming on, so this time we madeit work.
Thank you, it was really coolto be here with you guys.

Chris (49:39):
I love your show.

Jason (49:41):
As far as places to find me online, I'm active on
LinkedIn, bits and Flight on,mostly, like, I think, blue sky.
I think I got an Instagramaccount that I probably don't
post much to, but, um, you know,bits in flight is my, you know,
the my kind of side thing and,um, you know, if I'm ever doing
anything, uh, as far as, like,I've been a part of field day

(50:02):
and stuff like that.
So, um, usually blog under bitsand flightcom.
You'll find some content there,so awesome.
But yeah, thanks again forhaving me guys.
Really.

Tim (50:10):
Yeah, and thanks for thanks for coming.
Uh, anything in, chris, youwant to leave us with any pearls
of wisdom?

Chris (50:17):
I got nothing today.
Man, I'm fresh out.
I don't have much wisdom, uh,any days, but especially this
All right.

Tim (50:24):
Fair enough, all right.
Well, thanks for everybody fortuning in.
This has been, of course,another episode of the Capables
to Clouds podcast.
We'll see you next time.