027: Unplanned Paths: Finding Purpose in Ministry. With Pastor Joshua Walters

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, as far as playing bass goes, I don't do it
a whole lot anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Really yeah Interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
That's weird because I remember I don't remember if
it was the guitar centerconversation that we had that
one time.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, I was thinking about that on the way over here.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
But you had said something like I was like what
do you want to do Drums?
Like is that what you want todo forever?
And you're like no, I want toreally want to go into ministry.
I don't remember if that was atchurch or if that was at guitar
center, but I was thinking inmy head man, there's no way I'd
ever give up playing bass forsomething else yeah and then I
started doing this so that'skind of where that comes from.

(00:39):
It's not that I dislike it,uh-huh, but I just found
something new, and I think it'sbecause obviously I think God
grows us in different areas ofour life.
Like this is something that'sstill uncomfortable for me, and
playing bass on stage wasbecoming so second nature.
Yep, not that that's what thatshould take away.

(01:01):
Like, oh, worship's easy, now Idon't have to do it anymore.
That's not what I'm saying, butyeah, so I just relate
worship's easy, now I don't haveto do it anymore.
That's not what I'm saying.
But yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I just relate to that.
When you told me that you wantto do ministry, yeah, it's dude,
it's.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
So I'm sorry I have so many people ask me,
especially these days, like doyou miss drums, miss playing
them?
But I'm never up there.
Like I wish I was playing drumsinstead of now I play electric
and singing all the time, that'sjust what I do.
Okay, I mean, the last time Iplayed drums in church, I mean I

(01:33):
think I did a couple times inutah, but since we've been in
michigan, it's been zero, zerotimes, zero times and you've
been here back.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
yeah, you've been back since March, april, april.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, so we're coming up on six months, yeah, and
there just hasn't been a needwhich for me is great.
Right.
Right, because now I'm nottrying to recruit a bunch of
different drummers or trying toscramble, but yeah, you get a
grace.
And you know I was justrecently kind of had this
epiphany.
We're going to go right for itright here in the beginning,

(02:08):
right on.
But we had I really waswrestling with the whole process
of moving back to Michigan isquite a story, so we can get
into that later.
But wrestling with the thingsthat I desired right as far as I

(02:28):
mean, if it's kids, if it'sputting down roots where we are
and all these things and beinglike I'm in this continual place
of sacrificing those things,yeah Right.
But also growing up hearingpeople say God's gonna give you
the desires of your heart, Imisunderstood that my entire
life.
I think a lot of people do and Ithink it was to no fault of
anybody who taught me Right.
It was, I think, a lack ofstudy and a lack of context.

(02:49):
So I always thought it's thethings that I desire, god wants
me to have, the things that Ihave desire for, so he's going
to give them to me.
Yeah, I remember.
I don't even remember, honestly, who I was talking to about it,
but it's we.
Just I feel like I live in thisseason, I live a life of
sacrifice now, and that soundsreally dramatic, but like I have

(03:11):
to remind myself to kind oflive in submission.
And and it was a pastor, samuel, at Life West, and he said, man
, when, when God called Moses togo to go free the people of
Israel from Egypt, god gave himthat desire to go to go free the
people of Israel from Egypt,god gave him that desire to go.
So God puts the desires of yourheart in them.
Yeah, he basically likereorients them Exactly.

(03:32):
He doesn't give you the thingsthat you already want but, he
changes your heart andtransforms you and that's uh,
yeah, it's just been a a coolthing for me to to kind of walk
in and a cool thing for me to tokind of walk in and and as to
tie that back like I loveteaching people.
Now, right, I still love toplay drums.
That's by far the mostcomfortable thing.
If you talk about like comfort,it's not a okay, now I can

(03:55):
relax because I'm comfortabledoing this, but it's a I feel
like I can really focus on.
It's just me and the Lord.
Right, I'm not leading anybody,like I'm not calling out chords
or making sure the band'stogether.
I can shut my eyes and justworship.
You know, just get up Like I'mby myself in my room when I'm 14
years old, and but that changesand you start to be passionate

(04:17):
about other things and it's funto grow and to kind of stretch.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
So you're still doing worship leading.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, I wear a lot of different hats right now.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Is it ever uh stressful?
Um or do you enjoy every aspectof it?

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Is it just like you're happy to do it all the
time, or is it just Sure, Ithink there are absolutely parts
of my job where I go man likeit can be an inconvenience,
right, I think?
There's a.
I think there can be a stigma,especially in ministry, Like
it's a privilege to do what I do, you know.

(04:57):
I mean, you know we servedtogether for a long time and I
volunteered and then I was onstaff as a worship leader and
now I'm a worship pastor and itis an honor, is an honor to do
what I do and I love my job.
But I mean, the church I camefrom was a big, established
ministry with you came inplugged in, you know there was

(05:18):
no.
There was no setup and teardown.
The AV crew did that wholething, and that's something I
couldn't even appreciate at thetime, because it's all that I
knew right.
And now I'm every saturday, I'mworking saturday night to set
up the whole stage, bring in allof the gear, along with a great
setup team that we have yeahand then sunday we're tearing it
all down and but then youthservice comes around sunday

(05:40):
night and I'm going back out anddoing that again.
So the there is part of it isfilling the need and some of
those practical things are likeman, it's going to be great when
we have a building, so that wecan host this stuff how we would
like to and do it as well as wewant.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
So is it kind of like a rented space for now?
Is that where you're doingchurch?

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yes, so we meet in a middle school, okay, so it's
kind of this hybrid thing.
We our sound system, so ourspeakers and our subs and all of
our lighting stays mounted.
That's actually a really coolkind of story.
Back before I was ever part ofLife West, our pastor reached
out to them and said hey, we'dlove to rent your guys'
cafeteria.

(06:20):
And they said we'll never rentout to a church.
That kind of seemed like okay,closed door cool Like that's not
, that's not it.
And I don't remember the exacttimeline, it might've been a few
months later Our pastor's wife.
She said I just feel like weshould reach out to the school
again.
And he was like no, like theytold me, no, like they said
there's no way.
And sure enough they had a.

(06:41):
She's a little bit softer, hecan be pretty blunt and straight
to the point where his you know, it's usually kind of how it
goes Wives make us a little bitmore tender and can help us,
kind of you know.
And she went and asked and theywere like, yeah, we might be
able to do something like that.
And it was just like this total180 degree flip and so our
speakers stay in there, but allof our chairs we have about 320

(07:04):
chairs that we set up everySunday.
We've got a stage that comesout I think it's 12 panels now
we just got a little bit biggerof a stage All of our cabling,
everything gets run every singleweekend.
So yeah, it's, but they've beendoing it for I don't know, it's
gotta be three years now inthis same space and it's just

(07:25):
been a blessing man it's, withall the classrooms and stuff and
the gym, our kids' areas areawesome.
That's what we hear a lot of ispeople come and families enjoy
it because they say, oh, my kidswant to be here.
And when parents don't have toconvince their kids to go to
church because the kids want tobe there that's a big win for
them to convince their kids togo to church, because the kids
want to be there that's a bigwin for them.

(07:50):
So there are parts of it that ofcourse we look forward to
having our own space and beingable to make it our own and kind
of make it everything that wewant to be.
But it's also such a blessingfor where we are right now and
you don't want to rush out ofwhere there's blessing and where
there's fruit.
You want to kind of sit wherethe Lord has you.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Right when it's producing and then, when
something comes up, it comes upExactly.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, so we're excited, but we're in no rush.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
The Lord's blessing what we're doing.
Yes, yeah, that's a good way tobe.
And you're pastoring now too,right, correct?
How has that been?

Speaker 2 (08:22):
It's been.
You know it's been incredible.
You know it hasn't it's notlike my day-to-day totally
radically shifted Right.
It was funny when I started,before we came back, the plan
was actually for me to beordained out in Utah, just

(08:44):
because it's been on Jasmine andI's heart for a long time and I
love music and you know I can'tsee a day where, like music,
ministry isn't a part of my life.
But I've always known thatthere's.
It's not all that I'm meant todo, you know it's not all that
I'm passionate about.
You know I don't mean to be likeover spiritual, like the Holy
Spirit's, like that's.
You're only doing part of it.
You got to do a little bit more.
You know, it's not like that,it's just I, I'm passionate

(09:06):
about teaching people, you know,and I, and what has that that
has turned into is?
I love watching peopleunderstand and kind of see the
light click on when they go oh,this is what, this is, what true
biblical, sacrificial worshipis not what I've been
experiencing for most of my life, you know, um, so there's been
a little I feel like I've beenexperiencing for most of my life
, you know.
So there's been a little.

(09:26):
I feel like I've been kind ofpastoring before I ever was
licensed.
You know, you kind of do itwith or without the title.
Now I just am licensed to Maryand Barry, mary and Barry, mary,
barry and counsel.
That's kind of the change, andI haven't done any of that yet.
I was going to do one funeraland then I got funeral fired.

(09:47):
So Funeral fired it makes itsound way worse than it is.
There was a family from ourchurch that wanted me to do
their funeral or a funeral oftheir family members and the
family's from out of state, andthey chose to do something
different.
So this lady was so sweet.
She gave me a little card andshe was like we're so sorry, but

(10:09):
they decided they're going todo something else, and, and I
totally understood it hadnothing to do with it.
But I didn't go find Jasmine andI was like I think I just got
funeral fired, I think they justfired me and we had a good
laugh about it.
But so, yeah, it's uh, it'sthings that I've been doing like
our whole time in Utah.
It's what we were doing isteaching people and I was
preaching a little bit out inUtah.
I got to start doing that andso, yeah, it's been an absolute

(10:31):
blast.
But it is very much like all ofthe practicals Cause I I went
to Karis Karis Karis BibleCollege it's based out of Denver
, it's Andrew Womack schoolCollege.
It's based out of Denver, it'sAndrew Womack School.
They don't teach you thepracticals of preaching like how
to.
At least for me, I didn't takecourses like that and a lot of

(10:52):
the pastors I've talked to theexperience has been similar like
coordinating a funeral serviceor a wedding or writing that or
what that all looks like.
Yeah.
Nobody tells you that and it'skind of just you figure it out
as you go.
They kind of throw you in andit's like all right, I guess
we're going to kind of learn onthe fly, that's how life is, it

(11:14):
seems to be, yes, you learn onthe fly.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
When did you realize that you wanted to?
I mean, you said you've alwaysbeen teaching, but when did you
realize that you really wantedto become the pastor, where
you're standing up front andteaching a group of people like
a sermon?

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Sure, I wouldn't say that when I think of being a
pastor, I don't think so much ofteacher, I think more of
shepherd.
Yeah, right, I mean yourfive-fold ministry, right?
Teachers, preachers, apostles,prophets and evangelists.
I enjoy teaching, I do, buteven more than that, I enjoy the

(11:54):
pastoral care side of things.
Right, yeah, I enjoy building arelationship with somebody, and
when they're either they wantto celebrate something more when
they want to celebratesomething, or when they're
either they want to celebratesomething more when they want to
celebrate something, but or inthere in a time of need and they
say, hey, I need somebody whowants to stand alongside me.
It's such a joy for me to bethat person.
You know, I, uh, first of allI'm honored that they would let
me into that part of their life,but it is a um, but also it

(12:19):
just is.
So it's, it's fulfilling Causeit's really what I believe it,
what I believe I've always been.
I've never been scared of publicspeaking, or you know, even
back in middle school and highschool.
Really, that's usually people'snumber one fear.
So that's the you know.
I mean don't get me wrong, Iget nerves, but some people it's
crippling.
Yeah.
But it makes me come alive.
Man Like I love.

(12:39):
I just really enjoy doing itand there's not like I can't
point to one experience and saythat's when I knew I loved
public speaking.
Right.
But I just I love going on thisjourney with people and saying
man, that's.
And the great part aboutpreaching is it's usually if I'm
speaking in a public setting.
I've kind of come to this placewhere I almost always start

(13:01):
with I'm not going to sayanything incredibly profound.
You know, it's not that I'm thesmartest guy on the planet or
have studied the most, becauseI'm not.
There are people who havestudied much longer just because
they've had more time.
I'm only 24, you know.
But I truly believe, and I'mlearning to believe this right
In my worship, leading in myteaching, and if I'm preaching,
it's that God has anointed me todo this and it's God's

(13:25):
anointing, that he's given and Ican operate confidently in that
because it's not my ownstrength or my own might.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's why I just go.
Man, what an honor that I getto do this, that I get to teach
and I get to build relationshipswith people and um, and that I
get to help shepherd this body.

(13:46):
That just the fact that I getto do that and it takes care of
my family is still it blows mymind.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, is it something that has come naturally for you
, or is it something that's likeyou started growing in and then
continue to grow?

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, uh, it Both yeah.
So I think the relational sideis very natural for me, I would
agree.
Yeah, I enjoy talking to people.
I like just kind of sitting andlistening.
I like to talk too, so it'seasy for me to make a
conversation go long.
But I think as you step, as youkind of step farther and

(14:24):
farther into what God's calledyou to do and really created you
to do.
Right it's we're called to beworshipers, right, we're called
to, to walk in communion andrelationship, right?
I think sometimes we use thisand I'm guilty of this too,
growing up using this callingword, I think, a little bit too
flippantly of like there's onething that God's called me to do

(14:46):
and if I'm not doing that thing, I'm walking outside of his
will.
You know If I'm not doing itright now, exactly?
And there's this and I just Idon't think that's an accurate
description of it I am.
We're called to live insubmission to the Father, right,
and he guides us through thepeace of the Holy Spirit.
Right, god can still do signsand wonders.
I'm not saying that he can'tbut we have this amazing thing

(15:08):
called the Holy Spirit thatdwells inside of us and gives us
peace and direction, and mygoal is to just live in
submission to that, because I'ma human.
So I'm going to mess things upand I'm not going to make all
the right decisions every time,you know, um, but yeah, we, we,

(15:29):
uh, we just need to live insubmission to that as we kind of
go through, um, go through thedifferent stages of our life.
That can answer your question.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, okay, I think also, along with that, there's
multiple callings that you canbe called to, and it.
And it's not like oh no, Ipicked the right, the wrong one.
I talked a little bit with that, with Ricky, yeah, when it's
like he was wondering if he wassupposed to take the job at
church or if he was going totake the promotion at uh, he was

(15:57):
working at some car dealership,I think.
Yeah.
Something like that, and it'slike sometimes you have options
right.
It's like God's not going to bemad that you chose this over
that, when you're living insubmission to him and you know,
walking with him daily.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, that's exactly it we just had.
You're familiar with MikeSignorelli.
He's from.
New York V1 Church so we justhad him to our.
We have like a lead team, ourwhole dream team, the leaders of
our different teams.
We all meet at our pastor'shouse once a month on Monday
nights and we just it's a timeof fellowship.

(16:35):
There's like snacks in, but weusually will bring somebody in.
I know Pastor Dwayne's done itbefore.
Pastor James Sunnick has beenthere a few times and we he
brought this really great, justkind of a good reminder of it's
easy for people.
I think, especially these daysand I watch a lot of kids who I

(16:57):
mentor walk through it whenthey're coming out of high
school and going into college ofwhat's God calling me to do?
What am I created to do?
And that's a good question toask.
Don't get me wrong.
You want, you know you can gotoo far the other way and God's
not even involved in thedecision-making.
Right, I'm going to do what Iwant to do, just because I want
to do it.
Yeah, but he said you know, ifwe're all so eager to rush to

(17:22):
what we think God's calling isfor our life, what if he's
calling to you?
What's right in front of youright now?
You know, and that's where Ilook at, I look back over my
life and I can see the timesthat I have not strived is where
I think I've found the mostpeace and I end up just landing

(17:43):
in a place I never could haveput myself, like when I was
hired at Rez.
I mean, that was a prompting.
The Lord put it on my heartbecause it was for a worship
leader position and I thinkPastor Ken he had never heard me
sing before.
I also was terrified to sing infront of anybody.

(18:05):
I knew how to play like fourchords on my guitar and Pastor
Jared Gregory had left for wherehe was going to help preach at
Life Mission.
And the Lord was like you havea heart for this, write it down
and just bring it in and give itto Pastor Ken and that's all

(18:25):
that you need to do.
And I remember sitting I wassitting in my parents' office at
the time and just going, man,like I'm going to look like such
an idiot, like these are thethings I'm passionate about,
this is what I like to do, thisis what I believe the Lord's
laid on my heart for thisministry and what I feel like I
bring to the table.
Hire me as a worship leaderright the kid who plays drums

(18:47):
like that's just what I wasknown for.
And outside of that, like Ididn't try to convince them,
outside of that, it was the HolySpirit spoke to the executive
pastor and the worship pastorand then go into Utah.
We never asked to go to Utah.
We didn't ask, we had nointentions of moving to Utah.
Um, and because of the pastor'sobedience out there and and our

(19:13):
sometimes stubborn obedience,um, we ended up there and we had
no intention of moving backhere.
But they reached out to us andnow we're helping at another
church plant out in Allendaleand I just I look back in all of
the.
There are never things I wouldhave chosen for myself.
Right, you know it's never in aplace where I decided I wanted

(19:34):
to go, but the Lord will.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
When you live in submission to him, it's, yes, he
takes care of you, but he alsoI mean the Lord orders your
steps, you know, and the stepsbecome clear when you just go
hey, I'm going to step, when youtell me to step, yeah, I've
noticed that living in thepresent is one of the best
things you can do for that.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, exactly, and I was so bad at that for so long.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I thinkeverybody is.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
I've been there too.
I just think, when you'reliving more in the present, it's
like the things almost start tofall in place, rather than like
, oh, I have to do this rightnow, I have to get this done.
Cause.
I had a huge problem with thispodcast in the beginning, where
it was like I have to have anepisode out every week and it's

(20:22):
got to be this long, it's got tobe this, this, this and that,
and then recently it's been I'vekind of let it go a little bit,
whereas I'm still doing it.
But it's not as stressful whenyou're just like I'm gonna.
I'm gonna calm down and likenot make this my identity.
Yeah, come on man becausethat's what I was.
I would constantly check theviews.

(20:43):
Am I getting any moresubscribers.
And then it's like the secondyou just stop focusing so much
on it.
I mean, I was still working onit, but it was just like almost
living life a little more slow.
Yeah, focusing more on myprayer time and my Bible time
and time with the Lord has justbrought me so much more peace.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, that's exactly it, man, and that's I've even
seen that too.
On the side of since beinglicensed, right, there's a like,
there's a responsibility thatcomes with that right.
But there's also a biblicalaccountability, right.
Right, the bible says fewshould desire to teach because
they'll be held to a higherstandard, right, so there is a

(21:30):
you know.
Thankfully that doesn't scareme, but, man, if that doesn't
light a fire under my butt tomake sure what I'm teaching is
right, yeah, but also my privatelife like to for me to be even
more on purpose about man.
If I'm saying that you need tobe spending time with god, I
better be spending time with thelord.
Yeah, if I'm saying you need tobe even more on purpose about
man, if I'm saying that you needto be spending time with God, I
better be spending time withthe Lord.
If.
I'm saying you need to be inyour word if you want to hear
from God.

(21:50):
I better be in my word.
You know what I mean.
And the crazy thing is evenbeyond that.
Yes, I want to be authentic andI don't want to be a hypocrite,
but that's just how I'msupposed to live my life to
begin with, you know.
So that's some of the otherlike my.
Our pastor says this coinedthis phrase right when we moved

(22:11):
back and it like rocked me.
You know, it's kind of it'ssimilar to like a Dave Ramsey
live like no one else.
You can live like no one elseyou know, yeah, yeah.
But he said we were at thisconference up north and he said
uncommon results come fromcommon things done with uncommon
discipline.
And I was sitting there and itwas like the Lord convicted me,

(22:33):
like right on the spot.
You know, it was not just thatI don't read my Bible at all or
that I, you know, but even thelike man are you getting?
Are you willing to get upearlier just to spend some time
with me?
You know, and that's where it's.
I remember I was actuallyliving in this building when
COVID happened and it was thefirst time in my life my sleep
schedule was like so whackbecause nothing's open, I can't

(22:56):
go hang out with anybody, so youjust start binge watching stuff
.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Were you able to work .

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Well.
So that's a crazy part of thatstory.
My first day on staff, my firsttime in full-time ministry as
my main source of income, wasthe day that Michigan shut down.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh man.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
So I showed up.
I don't remember the exact date, it was March something, 2020.
And yeah, sure enough, I thinkit was March 26.
Pastor Al, the executive pastorat the time, comes down.
We just got word the state'sshutting down.
We got to record services, so Iwas at church for like 10 hours
that day.
We recorded like four weeksworth of services, and then I

(23:36):
was here by myself for like amonth, did you guys change into
different clothes for each one?

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
So we came, I ran back here and grabbed some
different stuff.
Well, jasmine called me andtold me what to grab, because I
don't dress myself well, I guess.
But yeah, different outfits,the whole thing, and it was, I
mean, talk about a shock.
It was like man, that's becauseI was so excited we had been
believing for like years and,yeah, that was my first day on

(24:06):
staff.
But sorry, I totally justrabbit trailed.
What was I even answering justnow?
We were talking about, oh,uncommon discipline.
Yeah.
So it was just kind of thepracticals of my day.
It's easy when we talk abouttithing and those things, about

(24:26):
giving God our first 10th Right,um, and I, you know, I think
there are people who can takethat too far Like you don't have
to give away a 10th of yoursandwich.
You know, at the risk of beingheretical, I'm going to.
I think I can make that claimpretty boldly, but giving the
Lord the first part of my day,you know, waking up and saying,

(24:48):
God, I want to.
I want to actually spend timewith you and I want to spend
time with your word and doingand being intentional about
putting practical things inplace for me to do that.
You know I was.
You know I would do differentBible studies and the YouVersion
things and those are great,those aren't wrong.
But I never felt like I had agood rhythm where I'm not
jumping around the Bible allover the place.
Yeah.

(25:09):
It usually was.
I would hear something in apodcast and that would bring me
to Mark and I would do a studyon Mark and I would kind of go
through and try to get a goodunderstanding.
But there's actually I juststarted a Church of the
Highlands down in Alabama.
Have you heard Church of theHighlands Pastor Chris Hodges?
I have not.
So he also has a podcast calledthe Grow Leader Podcast and

(25:32):
their whole thing is they justwant to equip other churches.
So they have a bunch ofresources that they've made that
are free to pretty much anybody.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Is it like Bible studies and?

Speaker 2 (25:43):
stuff, yeah, all kinds of stuff.
So they have this.
It's a whole pdf uh document,but they've broken down the
bible in a year.
But it's some old testament,some new testament, a proverb in
a psalm every single day ohnice and that's where, for me,
that's a practical thing I canput in place.
That is easier for me to wrapmy head around right when.

(26:05):
I can say every single day, I'musing discipline to get up early
enough to get through andreally digest and meditate on
the word that I'm reading thatmorning.
And even that, like you said,when you prioritize that and you
put God first, that bears fruit, because you're sowing into
yourself and sowing into yourheart and you're going to reap

(26:27):
life, and life abundantly right,yep, so it's yeah, man that's
so awesome that you're doingthat.
That's huge.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
What did I say I was doing?
Spending time with God everyday, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
In your prayer life.
Your podcast wasn't youridentity.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Right, it wasn't in what you do Right, yeah,
identity right, it wasn't inwhat you do, right?
Yeah, yeah, and you'vementioned it a couple times.
But utah, what made you want togo, or what?
When did you find out it wassomething that you were to do,
to go to utah, like what was?

Speaker 2 (26:54):
the jared, reach out to you um, yeah, that's uh, how
much time do we have?
No, we um.
So that was kind of thebeginning of a really
transformative journey forJasmine, who's my wife and I.
We it was, I'm trying to think,christmas of 22.

(27:21):
I believe I'm getting thosedates right.
I believe Christmas is 2024.
Yeah.
So, Christmas is 22.
That entire year of 2022, togive some background, I had been
leading worship for two and ahalf years at that point, but I
was.
I placed myself like I was verybottom of the totem pole, like

(27:42):
I was not, and it was notanybody else on the staff who
made me feel that way.
Right, but it's just.
I'm there with Ken Reynolds,jasmine, tiffany, landon, bruce.
You know these people who arejust run circles around me in
the musical, especially in whatwe were doing right, playing
drums.
I could hold my own you knowthat was my most of my life, but

(28:04):
now I'm singing and playingguitar and I feel totally
exposed, like I don't have theyears of practice or experience
or um.
But at the beginning of 2022,we started getting phone calls
um from other churches and theywould be calling me saying hey,
we, we would love if you wouldconsider to come and and work

(28:26):
for us, if you'd be consideringto come be our worship leader.
How did they get your number?
So it's through Link right.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Okay, so these are affiliated with.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Correct Affiliated churches, gotcha.
So I'm sure they called Res andsaid, hey, we need a worship
leader.
Pastor Dwayne said I gotsomebody and I did not realize
that that was happening.
Um, but out of nowhere I startgetting all these phone calls
from, I mean, it was like five,six different churches and it
was happening often.
Hey, do you want to come?
Would you come visit?

(28:58):
Would you come and lead on asunday here?
Would you come and do this?
And I remember sitting downwith jasmine and man.
I'm honored that they wouldcall me, but I feel like I'm the
last person they should becalling, like I'm not, I'm not.
Everyone else on the staff, likeeveryone else here has been,
knows the administrative sidebetter of what we do, the
organizational side, that youall have more experience.

(29:18):
Why in the world are theycalling me Like I'm?
I'm learning, I'm still growing, you know.
So that's going on through 2022.
And then it started gettingweird.
Where we had, I had pastors atthe church I was working at
saying, hey, did you choose achurch yet?
And I would look at them likewhat?
Like yeah, here, this is where,like we're committed.

(29:41):
Oh, pastors at res At res Wouldbe asking us.
Yeah, and I'm like they musthave heard.
Churches are calling.
Yeah.
But I remember being soperplexed because we were
building Rise and that wasstarting to get some traction
and we were having the masterclass and people were joining
the team.
In the time from when Risestarted till when we left, the

(30:02):
team doubled.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
I remember.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Which was just an absolute blessing.
That was a victory for us, youknow.
But also people enjoyed it.
People wanted at least fromwhat I saw but it was bearing
fruit.
You know, we were developingmusicians, not just practically
but spiritually, teaching them.
Hey, this is what it means tobe a worshiper and what it means
to be a worship leader, becauseit doesn't matter if you're on

(30:27):
a microphone or not, especiallyif you're on that platform, you
are a worship leader, you know.
And we so we were like no, thisis like we're making a
difference here.
Why would we want to leave Likewe don't feel called out of
here, we don't.
So that's happened for about ayear.
That's happening for about ayear.

(30:50):
In october of 22, pastor jaredgave us a call and he said hey,
um, we're having a night ofworship, um, on new year's eve,
to kind of bring in the new yearwith praise.
I think was kind of the yeahkind of the thing he said would
you guys consider fly?
We'll fly you out and will youcome and lead worship, Help us
lead worship for this?
And I remember saying like willI consider it?
Are you kidding me?
Of course I'm coming, Likeyou're going to fly me out to

(31:12):
Utah.
I've never been out West.
This will be sweet.
And we we he, him and PastorJared and Alicia mentored
Jasmine and I for a long time,so we had we just have a long
history with them.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
So he said, of course , yeah, how long was he at res?
Because he was there for acouple years when I got there.
But how long was he therebefore that?

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Oh man, I want to say he came in, I'm going to get it
wrong and when Jasmine listensto this she's going to be like
you idiot.
I think it was 2015, 2016.
They were there for about threeor four years Gotcha, but that
was kind of right.
2016, 2017 is when Jasmine andI started dating and he was a

(31:54):
percussionist, so of course, wegravitated to each other.
So we built up a lot ofrelationship and when they left
Rez, that was our firstexperience with like man, like
we know God's calling you and wecan see it Like we know that
this is good but, man, it breaksour hearts that you're not
going to be here with us, youknow.
So we were all kinds of ampedlike sweet, we're going to get

(32:15):
to go to Utah and see Jared andAlicia, and so that.
And on that phone call he said,hey, we're looking for a
worship leader.
He said it's a crazy faiththing, you know, we can't pay
anybody.
It's you'd come out as amissionary and serve.
If you know anyone, can yousend them my way?
And I remember sitting like inthat moment I was like I'm

(32:39):
surprised you didn't even ask us.
You know, like I wasn'toffended, I was just surprised,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
But I was like, yeah, man, I'll keep my ear to the
ground and uh, now, if he wouldhave asked me then I would have
told him no, but yeah, do youthink he was kind of trying to
hint at it?

Speaker 2 (32:53):
oh yeah, okay, oh yeah yeah so that kind of
conversation ended and we werelike, yeah, well, we got our
flights sorted out, and novembercomes around, and and he calls
us again and and there are timesin my life there's a few times
in my life I can go back towhere either it's I saw somebody
, or I started a conversation,or something came up and my

(33:15):
spirit was just quickened, likeI know, all right, something's
happening right now.
And this phone call in Novemberwas one of those times.
So we were talking about to behonest with you, I don't even
remember, but it was Jared,jasmine and I all talking, and
Jasmine had to go to rehearsal.
So once she left, like I'm myheart's racing, I was like my
palms are sweating and I waslike man, what, what's going on?

(33:37):
Like I knew something wascoming.
And he said hey, man, I justwanted to ask you I know it's a
crazy thing and I know you guyswill probably say no, but would
you consider at least prayingabout moving out here and being
our worship leaders and helpingplant this church with us?
So they were planting thatfollowing January, it's November

(34:00):
, so in two months they're goingto start and I'll tell you.
In that moment I knew we weresupposed to go.
It just was a like all thesechurches are calling.
I had no desire to leave Rez.
You know, we had bought a housethe year before, right around
the corner.
We were planning on starting afamily.
We loved the team and where wewere.
But I knew in that moment, likeI was excited, like this is it,

(34:24):
like I have a heart for this weneed to go.
But it was.
That's also in all the, the,the, all the sacrifice started
to kind of reveal itself.
Right, it's.
There's the initial excitementand then you realize, oh, this
is going to cost us something,you know.
So Jasmine came back fromrehearsal and I said, hey, you
won't believe what, what Jaredasked me and she was like no, I

(34:48):
said, yeah, he, he asked us tomove to Utah.
She was like why would he dothat?
There's no way I'm moving toUtah.
A little advice If you ever sayGod, I'll do anything but this,
or there's no way I'm doingthis, yep, it's always going to
end up, I can almost guaranteeyou that's exactly where you're
going.
So that started this.

(35:11):
Yeah, the next month and a halfor so, we kind of didn't really
want to think about it because Ithink we both knew, so we
didn't talk about it a whole lot, and we knew that we were going
to go out there for the nightof worship.
So I think we thought, hey, man, if God's going to call us out
there, he's going to open thedoors and make it clear to us
there's going to be no flight onthe way home.
Right, our house will burn downand we'll be stuck there.

(35:42):
But in reality I told the Lord,I said God, I cause like I can
tell him what to do.
But I just said, god, it's,we'll go wherever you want us to
go.
All I ask is you?
You speak to my wife.
I don't want to convince her,you know.
Yeah.
Cause that was.
That was a scary thing as ahusband to say hey, can?
I think we need to leave all ofour family, friends and
community and the house that welove.
I can imagine.

(36:02):
I don't want to.
So I said I don't want toconvince her because if you're
calling me, you're calling her,you know, and and uh.
So that was kind of my prayerthe whole time.
And so just a week before weleft um, I don't know if you've
heard any of this story before.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
I don't think I have.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, so a week before we leave, we are leaving,
I think, that Friday, to go toUtah.
So it is the week of Christmas.
Okay.
And we left.
Right after Christmas we get atext message from our boss.
It says hey, can you come inearly for a quick meeting before

(36:40):
our worship staff meeting, andJasmine and I are like sure yeah
, no problem.
So she had been on staff therefor about seven years.
I was coming up on three orfour years there.
So we roll in, kind of like Imean not really thinking a whole
lot of it and so we sit downand the short version is they
kind of presented us with acontract saying, hey, we want

(37:04):
you guys to find somewhere whereyou feel called, so you guys
will you'll have some lessenedresponsibilities and we want to
help you find a church where wecan send you guys and we want to
help partner with you, right,so you can kind of let us know
what we can do to help, butwe're going to send you guys and
we want to help partner withyou, right, so you can kind of
let us know what we can do tohelp, but we're going to send
you.
Yeah, and man it.
When I tell you that was like,uh, like it felt like I got hit

(37:25):
by a truck, you know, it feltlike I was getting fired.
Yeah and uh, I just remembersitting there like looking
across the table and Jasmine andI looking at each other and
going what they said yeah, youguys will have this year to go
find somewhere that you feelcalled, but yeah, by the end of

(37:46):
the year we're going to send youguys, so the end of 23.
Okay, so, yeah, it wasn't likefive days?
No, it was a whole year and itwas incredibly generous.
They're like well, in yourservice load, there's not going
to be as much expected from youhere.
Still, we're going to take careof you guys, but we want you to
be able to go and visit and gofind somewhere.

(38:06):
I just that was one of the inthe moment, one of the worst
days of my life.
It was this, our, our homechurch.
It felt like man, we're we'regetting kicked out yeah, you
know where the reality is and welearned this through
conversation and because theywere surprised that.
We were surprised because Ithink jasmine started crying.
I probably was tearing up likeman, but we love this church

(38:30):
yeah like.
This is where we want to serve,you know, and um.
So the meeting wentinterestingly and uh we um what
does interestingly look likewell, so the it was with pastor
david, and then one of our otherhr pastors who works in hr,
okay, and when they presentedthis to us, like they were

(38:52):
smiling and they were like sothis is what this is going to be
, this.
And we were like what are youtalking about?
And they're like, no, but thisis so I'm trying to be.
And we were like, what are youtalking about?
And they're like, no, but thisis so I'm trying to figure out.
So I said what you're saying ismy job is going away.
Yeah.
And my job is going to be gone.
Yeah.
They said, yeah, we're going torestructure the department, and
they were saying it as if I hadalready known.
Oh, they thought Gotcha.

(39:19):
So this through it was probablya month of meetings and I mean
a lot of of frustration andtrying to figure out what ended
up happening.
Is, when I took my position,the plan was always for me to be
trained up and sent out.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Gotcha.
That's why all the calls werecoming.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
So that's why everybody yeah, cause there was
three years.
It's time to come.
And now what ended up happening, and why I think it got a
little bit messy, is pastor kenfacilitated my onboarding along
with pastor duane, and they hadthat conversation.
They said, yes, we want to hireyou, but we're going to raise
him up and we're going to sendhim out.
Pastor ken had just recentlypassed away, so pastor david

(39:52):
came in.
So it's, it really is nobody'sfault yeah it just was a Pastor
Ken was going through cancer andcoming to the end of his life
and Pastor David came in andthere was no.
It just got lost in the mess ofthis titan who had served at
this ministry for 25 years,passing in the mourning and the
grieving that came from that.

(40:12):
And so it just it fell throughthe cracks.
Right.
So, but this is where we lookback and see God setting all of
this up.
So we find this out a few daysbefore Christmas.
We leave right after Christmasfor seven days to go to the
other side of the country and itwas kind of a relief for us.
Like we, honestly it was hardfor us to be at church, like we

(40:34):
did all of the Christmasservices, christmas Eve, the
whole thing, the rehearsals, andit was miserable.
You know it was a.
You know I remember sitting, Iwas playing drums for Christmas
and I remember sitting backthere going Lord, this is the
last place I want to be rightnow.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
And this is at res, at res, at the Christmas
services, at the Christmasservices.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Cause I felt like I'd gotten fired.
I felt like my life was kind ofbeing ripped out from under me,
you know, and I just remembersitting there saying God, I like
this, this is a worship and asacrifice Like this costs me
something.
Yeah.
You know it's I love playingmusic and I love doing that and
it's my whole life.
I've said, man, what a joy itis for me that the things I love

(41:20):
to do bring glory to the Lord.
Right, the fact that I playmusic and I enjoy doing worship
sets and that brings God glory,that is so cool.
But I did not want to do itthat day and so we make it
through the services, go out.
Utah and jasmine and I wereboth kind of like let's see what

(41:40):
happens.
You know, part of us was likelet's not, we kind of hope
nothing happens, because wedon't want to move all the way
out here, right.
But uh, we just said we'regoing to kind of escape all of
the chaos that's going on athome right now.
And I found out after my fatherin law actually told Jasmine.
They met us at our house beforewe left and he said I feel like

(42:01):
something's going to happen onthis trip.
And Jasmine didn't tell me thatbecause she didn't want me to
get all amped up and excitedabout what was going on.
So we went to Utah, did thenight of worship, got to see
around St George and I mean, seesome old friends, and they were
excited to show us around wherethey were living.
And we get to the last day ofUtah.

(42:24):
There was like a big potluck atJulianne's mini Do you remember
the minis?
She played piano.
Yep, she played piano.
Yep.
So her and her husband, josh,and their kids moved out to Utah
.
Was it to help Jared as well?
Yep, yeah, so they're there.
Their kids moved out to Utah.
Was it to help Jared as well?
Yep, yeah, so they're there.
They're there helping planting,they help she plays keys out
there and Josh is doing kidsministry stuff.
But they hosted at their houseand we went through the whole

(42:46):
potluck and it was still.
You know, it was kind of a hey,we're going to send Josh and
Jasmine back off, they're headedback to Michigan, and just kind
of a thank you they're headedback to Michigan and just kind
of a thank you, we'll see youlater, kind of thing.
And we kind of feel like, hey,we're in the clear, we got to
the end, all like the superspiritual stuff already happened
.
Now we're just hanging out, youknow.
And so we did the whole potluckand we get to the end and

(43:14):
Pastor Jerry's like, hey, let'sjust lay hands on them quick
before we send them out.
So we're expecting like a threeminute God, we just pray for
safe travels, place a hedge ofprotection around them as they
send.
We send them back.
And, dude, when I tell you, itstarted like that, um, and you
know, pastor Jared just kind ofstopped and he said, man, if
anybody has anything that theyfeel like the Lord has given
them to pray over these two, Iwant to take some time to do

(43:38):
that right now.
And it was not like it's notlike I felt the Holy Spirit fall
on me and it was heavy and I'mstuck to the floor.
It wasn't like that, but I knewlike it felt like something was
coming.
So people are praying for usand Josh Minnie actually was the
first one who started speakingto what was going on in Jasmine

(43:59):
and I's hearts.
And he said you know, the Lord'sgiving me this picture of a hot
air balloon and you could turnon the igniter and get the fire
going in, but if you don't cutthe ropes attached to the
anchors, that thing's not goingto go anywhere.
And he said I see this, thisvision, and these ropes are
getting cut right.

(44:19):
So in my mind I'm going, my jobis gone, my house is gone,
right.
And but then I see the otherrope is my family yeah because
that's what was still holding mein michigan.
why I didn't want to leave wasmy family in my community, yeah
and uh.
So I'm sitting there like, ohman, like I know what's coming,
I'm not ready for this.
And so it continues like thatfor probably 15 minutes.

(44:43):
And then there's this man, aman named David, who met me that
night.
He doesn't know my story.
Most of the people in that roomhave no idea what happened the
week before.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Was he somebody that was helping plant the church, or
was he somebody who was justthere for the worship?

Speaker 2 (45:03):
night he was.
They were there helping withkind of the church, but they
didn't move there to plant thechurch.
They were originally fromFlorida but, um, they had moved
to utah during covid and theywere kind of doing a home group.
Um, and a lot of that homegroup ended up coming to utah or

(45:25):
, I'm sorry, to hilltop gotchaso they were.
They were heavily involved, theyhelped lead the freedom classes
, him and his wife.
But they um, yeah, he like heknew nothing about us.
Yeah, like I told him my namethat night and he walked up and
he just said you know, I feellike you guys are harboring some

(45:45):
unforgiveness and somebitterness and God's telling me,
if you don't let that go, youcan't step into what he has for
you.
Next, and I'll tell you I'mserious as a heart attack.
You next, and I'll tell you I'mserious as a heart attack.
In that moment I know that Ihad been telling myself the
right thing for me to do is toforgive them right, and to
forgive the people who.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
They didn't do anything against me, but I was
hurt but you, like part of youfelt at that time that they
might have.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I felt I meanI felt betrayed.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Right, you know, nobody betrayed me like I want
to.
I want to represent them well.
Reg took care of us so well inthis whole process.
But in that moment I feltbetrayed, I felt left on my own,
I felt kicked out.
But I also know, I knew Jasminewas feeling that way.
So he said that, and I'mserious, I'm sitting there

(46:34):
holding her hand and I go God Inmy mind.
I'm not saying I'm serious, I'msitting there holding her hand
and I go God, like in my mind.
I'm not saying this out loud,I'm like God, you're so amazing,
you love my wife so much.
You would speak through thisman to get to her.
So I'm like praying for herthat the Lord's going to soften
her heart so that she can let goof all this stuff and um, and

(46:55):
nobody and it.
That moment just kind of came inpast and he said he said it
again about three, three minuteslater.
I just feel like thisunforgiveness and bitterness and
resentment, like you guys haveto let that go.
And again I'm like, yes, lord,soften her heart.
And because jasmine, she she'swhen she loves so and when and

(47:18):
so when she gets hurt, she getshurt.
So I'm sitting there, yes, likethis.
This is it.
I'm so glad that this amazingministry opening moment is
happening for my wife, you know,still nothing.
Nothing really happened, and itwas probably another five
minutes.
And his wife, who I haven't metyet, she kind of came in with

(47:39):
some authority.
She almost sounded angry.
You know she wasn't angry, butshe was right, I know, what
you're talking about, yeah yeahshe came in with some, as a
pentecostal would say, some holyspirit fire, and uh, but she
just she walked right up to usand she said listen, you both
are harboring unforgiveness andyou need to forgive the people
who hurt you.
And in that moment, like Iwasn't overcome with emotion or

(48:02):
but I just felt like the HolySpirit so gently, was like just
just say that you forgive them.
And she said that.
She said you need to say theirnames out loud, so we're going
to pray this prayer, really easy.
And she said, god, I come toyou today and today I choose to
forgive.
And she said say their names.
And I was not like like itwasn't like this built-up thing

(48:24):
that I I let go, but I juststart saying the names of the
people I was hurt by and when Itell you, it was like the only
way I can think to describe itis like you know, when you get a
burn, and even when you putanything on it, it just hurts to
the touch and there's nothingyou can do to stop the stinging.
I had that, but this deep, deeppain in my heart, like this

(48:46):
morning of that season of mylife, and when I said, god, I
choose to forgive.
And I start listing off thesenames.
It was like the Lord reacheddown and just put his finger
right where that pain was.
And these names it was like thelord reached down and just put
his finger right where that painwas and it was gone.

(49:07):
Wow, you know, and I, I brokedown, I'm, I mean, I'm wailing
ugly, crying like I couldn'ttell you that last time I cried
like that, you know, yeah, butit was just this release of.
I didn't even realize I was, Ihad all this hurt kind of pent
up.
So I am wailing, crying, and hername was Jojo.
She's so, she's, so wonderful.
She walks over to Jasmine andgrabs her by her face.
She says Jasmine, you need torelease these people.
And the exact same thing.

(49:28):
She starts naming off peopleand just breaks down and it it
turned into about an hour of Imean, just like a like it felt
like an upper room experience,you know.
It was like the manifestpresence of God was there and he
was healing people.
We were sitting there worshipingand praying and we just were on

(49:50):
the floor on our faces for likean hour for like an hour and
that was a, and that's somethingthat only could have happened
there, away from everybody herewho's connected to what happened
.
You know, everyone there wasdisconnected.
There was no like we could beauthentic in ourselves and be
open about where we were.
And yeah, I mean the Lordsupernaturally like healed our

(50:14):
hearts in that moment, you know,and changed us.
And that was the moment that Iknew for sure like, all right,
we're supposed to be here.
You know it felt like thatchapter of Rez and serving there
and what I had, what we hadbeen able to do, like that was
closed and we went home and Ithink it was a couple of days.
But we were laying in bed onenight and we on purpose hadn't

(50:39):
talked about it and I just toldI rolled over to Jasmine and
said are we going to Utah or not?
And she looked at me and she'slike I think so and that was
kind of it.
Then the process was prettyfast, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
so then we left by the end of March, beginning of
April, and we were there andwhat was your full Utah
experience like when you werethere with Alec right Part of it
.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Part of it.
Okay yeah, so Alec and Bethanywent out quite a while before we
did.
Yeah that's right.
I want to say I'm not even goingto make a guess cause I'll get
it wrong but they were out therefor a while before we were.
They were there when we went inDecember and we saw them.
Alec played drums for thatnight of worship, but yeah, they

(51:26):
ended up.
I don't remember exactly whenthey came back from Utah, but
yeah, we saw them for a whileout there and got to connect
with them.
But, man, it was.
Utah changed us.
It changed the way that we viewministry.
It changed our marriage.
It changed us as individualpeople, you know, which feels

(51:46):
weird to say, because we areindividual people, but we we
just do.
We're one, we do everythingtogether you know, so, utahah we
, we got a very clearunderstanding of what it means
to actually be desperate for thelord, you know, and to actually
be reliant on him every singleday.
Um, you know, in our I've saidit like this in a lot of in our

(52:09):
kind of midwestern christianculture, yeah a lot of us have
grown up in a Christiancommunity, or at least partially
Christian community.
Yes, when you say I go tochurch, they know pretty much
know what that means.
Yep, you know.
It might be different for ifyou're reformed or non-denom, or
Baptist or you know it'llchange, right, but we're all

(52:29):
we're speaking mostly the samelanguage when it comes to the
not.
Our salvation issues Right?
Yep, not.
Are salvation issues right?
Yep, there's, there's the, thethe second priority, or things
that aren't salvation based um,but we're all pretty much
speaking the same language.
Utah is the opposite um of ofmichigan.
So michigan is predominantlychristian.

(52:52):
It's about I think it's stillunder 2% Mormon.
Last time I checked, Michigan,michigan.
Yes, utah is the exact opposite.
It's, I believe, 1.2% Christian, and St George, the town that
we were in, is the only city inthe country that is still over
50% Mormon.
Wow, so with the LDS faith andthat's a whole other rabbit hole

(53:18):
we can go down um.
But if you say, hey, jesusloves you, they're like I know,
isn't it awesome?
And it's like well, no, no, no,no, no.
They're talking about a totallydifferent jesus.
Their theology is totallydifferent yeah, it's crazy and I
don't know how much of thatalec did cover or didn't, so I
don't want to repeat all thestuff that he said, but it made

(53:38):
for a very different Christianexperience.
It was a first of all, thespiritual warfare and I know
people say that a lot but that'sreally what it was the
day-to-day spiritualconfrontations that we had.
You know, there I'm a prettybubbly person, usually smiling,

(54:02):
usually being too loud.
I'll tell you, I was theclosest I've ever been in my
life to depressed when we werein Utah.
You, yeah, I know, yeah, isn'tit crazy?
That is crazy, but it just was,you know, and Pastorared was so
amazing at helping, kind ofpastor us and shepherd us
through this.
You know, there there aredifferent because we don't fight

(54:23):
against flesh and blood, yepbut against powers and
principalities.
Right, I grew up here, so thespiritual I, I'm familiar with
the powers and principalitiesthat we fight against here.
Right, in my faith walk, in myspiritual disciplines, you know,
prayer, life, prayer, all ofthese things are accustomed to
what it's like here and withoutexperiencing it it's hard to

(54:45):
describe.
But he said we needed to be ina whole different game of
spiritual warfare and spiritualpreparation.
Right, yeah.
So really kicking your prayerlife into gear, spending more
time in the Word, doing all ofthese things, because the
reality was Utah is a placewhere the enemy has had a
stronghold, where really thiscult has.

(55:08):
The enemy has had a footholdthere for years, for I mean
centuries.
You know, and now we're here,and we're here taking ground.
There's a few other Christianchurches there that are
absolutely doing the same thing,so I don't mean to belittle the
other Christian efforts there,but really our heart was we can
argue doctrine all day, but I'mnot going to save somebody.

(55:31):
Your pastor is not going tosave you.
It doesn't matter if you're inUtah or here.
Only Jesus can do that andthere is.
I could preach for four hoursand sing 18 worship songs and
it's not going to get you anymore saved and it's not going to
change your life.
But a moment in the presence ofthe Holy Spirit, that's what

(55:52):
brings eternal change and truetransformation, right so that
was our heart was God.
We want to say what you wouldhave us say transformation,
right.
So that was our heart, was godwe?
We want to say all say what youwould have us say right.
And we want to teach people theword.
But more importantly, god, wejust want them to experience
your presence, because that'ssomething where they might have
the same they work out of theking james bible, um, so they

(56:12):
might have some of the samewords and maybe have the same
book, but god, god, they don'thave your presence.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Where does their theology come from if they're
reading out of the King James?
Because I know some of it getsreally out there, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
So I don't remember exactly dates, but so Joseph
Smith is the creator ofMormonism.
Originally, this all startedactually on the east side of the
country, in upstate New York.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, which is crazy.
I did know that, and then Idon't know why they all went to
Utah, but I guess they did.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
So, from what I understand I don't remember
exactly what denominations, buthe grew up in like a divided
Christian home, so say Baptistand Lutheran or Presbyterian,
and, you know, pentecostal it'sI don't remember exactly what it
was but his parents were twodifferent denominations and I
believe his father stopped goingto church, so.

(57:06):
But it was also this this theProtestant church was splitting
into all of these differentlittle sects, right, and it's a
unfortunately.
And this is where somethingelse that really was revealed to
me while we were there, or notrevealed, just that I came to
understand is how divided allthe different denominations are
and how heartbreaking that is,which is a whole different

(57:29):
subject.
But the story, what they'lltell you if you ask them, is is
Joseph Smith said God, who isthe true church?
Right, I don't want to.
I don't want to follow thewrong thing, god, I want to, I
want to follow you and I'll tellyou.
In my, in my optimistic heart,I want to say that was a genuine
prayer.

(57:49):
Yeah, right, I want to believethat, because I think all of us
have been there before.
All of us have gone man, likethe enemy's trying to discourage
you, and you go, man, what ifI'm in the wrong.
What if I'm following the wrongthing?
Right, yep, Been there.
And God's always faithful toreveal himself to you, right?
So his word says you seek himand you shall find him.

(58:10):
So that's the difference.
But that started this kind ofjourney for him.
And the story is god.
And god appeared to him withjesus in his backyard, um, and
revealed these golden tablets,the tablets of moroni.
Moroni was a an old mormon, uh,prophet, he didn't actually

(58:34):
exist, but that's their doctrine, because they believe, after
Jesus passed away, he rose againthree days later and was
present around.
And after those 40 days I thinkit is he went to the Americas.
Yeah, this is where it getstrippy, and this is the whole

(58:55):
book of Mormon.
So, after Jesus, before heascended, he went to what is now
Central America and there was Idon't know how, but somehow a
descendants of the Israelites inCentral America that were white
, with blonde hair.
They looked like us, but eitherway, um, so jesus appeared

(59:18):
there and their whole book ofmormon is an account of jesus's
time there.
Um, god, and there was this big, but I mean it just mirrors
bible stories like so incrediblyclear, like their mormon temple
is based off the temple of theold testament.
Right, they have a celestialroom that has a veil in it.
That is supposed to be it's theHoly of Holies.

(59:40):
They won't tell you it is, butthat's what it is.
Yeah, that's where they go tospend time with God.
You know, yeah, but so that allgoes.
So that's kind of the thedifferent book that they use,
their book of Mormon.
Yeah, is the different bookthat they use.
Their Book of Mormon issupposed to be an account of
what happened when Jesus was inthe Americas, which didn't
happen, but then there was alsoa, with Joseph Smith being the

(01:00:05):
first prophet they believe.
So they have a prophet today.
I don't know what his name is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
But they that's alive , yep, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Yeah, he's, they actually have's alive.
Yep, oh, okay, yeah, he's.
They actually have somethingcalled General Conference.
I can't remember if it's everysix months or every year, but
every Mormon takes it off work.
They don't do anything.
They all sit at home and watchthis General Conference Because
in this conference, similar tothe Pope, their prophet will
give the new revelation that Godhas given them so it can change

(01:00:39):
their doctrine or theirreligion based on the word of
the prophet, because God toldthe prophet that.
So a little example of this One, the most common one, is
polygamy.
So that is actually why theywere pushed so far west.
They started in New York, butthey use the same language of
Jesus and God and all thesethings and they actually they

(01:01:02):
believe in a different Jesus.
They believe God was created bysomething.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
And they believe that he was like a man on the earth
and then, when we die, we becomea God of our own planet.
Is that true?

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Yeah, kind of yeah, so we were.
So.
Mormon families are normallypretty large because, if we were
Mormon, what we would?
what they would say is you and Iwere spirit children before we
were born.
But just how Jesus had a bodyand died so that he could go be
at the right hand of the father,we have to come and be given an
earthly body so that we canmake it to heaven an earthly

(01:01:36):
body so that we can make it toheaven Right.
So we, they tell Mormonfamilies you need to have a lot
of kids, because if you don'thave kids, they don't get to
come and have an earthly body sothat they can make it to the
highest tier of heaven.
I believe right now there'sthree.
That's changed in all kinds ofdifferent things.
But yeah, they believe thatJesus and Lucifer were brothers.

(01:01:59):
They both came down to theearth.
Jesus modeled a life of how tomake it to heaven, which is not
wrong, but Lucifer modeled theopposite.
And up until I think it was the60s, and up until I think it
was the 60s, they taught that ifyou followed the teachings of

(01:02:21):
Jesus and lived by his example,your skin was lightened and if
you didn't, your skin wasdarkened.
So it's not a very diversepopulation in St George, utah,
but like that has changed.
Their prophet had supernaturalrevelation, and now that's not
the case.
But it's it's.

(01:02:42):
It's you if, watching it, youcan see that it's just a
man-made counterfeit.
And that truth for them issubjective right, because now
it's now they're havingrevelation that now they will
marry a same-sex couple in theward or the church, but they
won't seal, which is eternalmarriage, which also is not
biblical.
They won't seal a homosexualcouple in the temple.

(01:03:06):
So a sealing you can be marriedfor this life, but if you get
sealed you're married foreternity.
And that goes back all the wayback to some of the manipulation
of back in the days of polygamy.
I say that polygamy is still areal thing.
It's a problem.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah, but you were saying they started off in New
York and then polygamy is whatpushed them to Utah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Yes, so their extreme beliefs.
They would get pushed out oftowns because they would have
all the family, all of the wives, and these extreme beliefs and
the men are extremely oppressive.
Not not today.
That's not a goodrepresentation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Mormons are actually probably some of the nicest
people you'll meet because,their faith is ax based.
I think they're they all.
I should be more careful.
I say that.
I think they genuinely careabout people, but there is also
a.
There is also a, there is anelement to their.
The Book of Mormon says you'resaved by faith after all that
you can do.

(01:04:02):
So, you need to do everythingthat you can so you're not going
to meet a Mormon that's on hisdeathbed going I know I'm going
to heaven, he'll say I just hopeI did enough.
Oh yeah, which is heartbreaking.
Yeah, it really is.
So there are people, there areLDS people, who genuinely care
about others.
Yeah it, woman is In the oldMormon, in the FLDS is what we
call it now the fundamentalists.

(01:04:44):
So I talked about sealingearlier.
Kind of the mantra of the FLDSchurch was keep sweet, pray and
obey.
That's what they would say tothe wives.
Because if I were FLDS and Iwas married to four women, I
could be married and only getsealed to three of them.
So I internally, will bemarried to three of them and the

(01:05:05):
fourth one will be by herself.
She won't get to be with herchildren and her family in
heaven.
So it's this emotionalmanipulation and abuse really to
make the women submissive andso all of that.
They would get pushed from townto town to town until they got
out to actually to Utah and andthere was nobody out there.

(01:05:29):
So they kind of set up camp andkind of made it a stronghold
and especially the town we werein that there's a big FLDS
community and there's a uh, Ibelieve it's called Colorado
city.
I don't know why it's calledColorado city, but it's in
Arizona.
It was just South of us, um,and that's where um, a big,

(01:05:49):
another big fundamentalist kindof commune is um or was, but
yeah.
So their radical beliefs pushedthem all the way out into Utah
because nobody else wanted them.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
That's crazy.
Yeah, I never knew that story.
That's interesting.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Do you know how many like overhow many years it took for them
to finally make it out to?

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Utah.
I know the temple that was inour town was established in 1857
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Okay 1857?

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Yeah, 1857.
I think it was starting to bebuilt and I think in the 1870
something it was.
What's the word?
Like they prayed over it?
It was.
I can't think of the word.
Like they prayed over it.
It was.
Oh, I can't think of the wordthat I'm dedicated is the word
Thank you.
It was dedicated, and once atemple is dedicated, no one who

(01:06:47):
doesn't have their templerecommendation card can go
inside.
So, like you and I would not beallowed in.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Oh, is that why they open up certain temples, when
they first get built, to thepublic, and then you can go
check it out, but then, onceit's dedicated, it's like, yeah,
we're not allowed now.
Exactly, okay, yeah becausewe're unholy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
And that's where the conflicting theology goes,
because it's really.
It's that, like I said, thattemple is modeled after the Old
Testament temple, when thepresence of god was in the holy
of holy, so it's, it's a wholedifferent thing.
But now, if you ask them, hey,but wasn't the veil torn at the
crucifixion?
They're like what, what do youmean?
Like it's.

(01:07:27):
So we actually had theopportunity.
Um, the temple in our town wasrenovated, so we actually got to
walk through it and go see thewhole thing, um, which was
fascinating.
Yeah, they're really cool.
Yeah, they're they arestructurally beautiful.
Yeah, so, because it's, becauseit's, it's um works based like
they're it's the best ofeverything, the best materials,

(01:07:50):
the best designers, the bet,like everything has to be
premium, the best art that theycan get their hands on, yep and
um, yeah, but we, we would gothrough and ask questions and it
honestly broke my heart.
Um, but there were people therewho were volunteering to help
facilitate this tour and therewas, I think there's five
covenants.

(01:08:10):
I believe it's five, but that'swhere you go to make your
covenants with God.
And I asked them what are thefive covenants?
And they couldn't tell me.
You know, and I just go likewhy don't you know, you know,
but it's a but it speaks to theculture out there of like there
is.

(01:08:30):
They'll tell you this isn't true, but like you're.
For a long time they weretaught you're not allowed to
associate with an apostate.
So if somebody, like a familymember, leaves the church, like
if it's a family, and the dadsays this isn't it, I'm leaving,
they will take his family fromhim and his whole life will be
over because he left the Mormonchurch.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
That's where, that's when you're brainwashed.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
The issue is there are things that are technically
illegal.
Um right, like you can'tdiscriminate against religion or
belief, or faith right.
But we experienced that while inutah, like looking for
buildings to have church in,like we got kicked out of the
theater that we were in becausewe were holding baptisms and the

(01:09:16):
owner of that space was LDS andsaw what we were doing and they
said that can't happen.
And now, thankfully, they weregracious enough, they gave us a
month to get out, but we werekicked out because of those
baptisms.
And you know, there wasbuildings that we would try to
buy, that we would put offers inon um, like as a church, um,

(01:09:38):
that wouldn't get accepted.
But it becomes publicinformation when the building
sells and we would found it wassold cheaper, uh, to somebody
else, because I ask you, what doyou use it for?
And we'll tell them we're aChristian evangelical church.
Oh yeah, I don't know if that'sgonna, but everybody there is
Mormon.
So that was like back in thedays of polygamy, which I say

(01:10:01):
that it's not that long ago.
I mean it's, if you want to getreal.
There is a our pastor who wasout there, their neighbors.
I remember driving to theirhouse and driving past houses
where there's a man and 15 wivesand now you can spot them from
a mile away because they weardifferent.
They wear a certain kind ofdress and they braid their hair

(01:10:22):
a certain way, which is dictatedby their prophet how they do
their hair, that's crazy.
Yeah, so it's easy to spot them.
But my pastor's kids had afriend who was young, I think 13
, who one day was just gone Likeshe wasn't there to play, she

(01:10:44):
wasn't there to hang out.
And we come to find out she ismarried off and pregnant, but
nobody's prosecuting, nobody'sgoing to chase it down because
it's well, we don't believe init and we don't do it.
But for whatever reason, wecan't get anybody tried and
punished for impregnating a13-year-old girl.

(01:11:05):
And this is recent.
This is just before we movedback.
Yeah, so it's happening rightnow, just before we moved back.
Yeah, so it's happening rightnow, yeah, that's insane.
Yeah, and now there's a.
There's an.
Now.
This is not LDS like themainstream LDS.
They don't practice polygamyand you'll get different things
if it's wrong or not.
Some people will say it's notwrong, but God doesn't allow us

(01:11:29):
to do it anymore.
Or you know so not wrong, butGod doesn't allow us to do it
anymore.
But they don't practice itbecause it's against the law.
Yeah.
But I'm talking about thefundamentalists, the fundamental
LDS people.
There's a documentary, I think,on Netflix called Keep Sweet,
Pray and Obey and that happenedin St George, Colorado City and
in Texas.

(01:11:49):
That gives you kind of a peekinto what that all was like.
There was a prophet who wasmarried to a bunch of underage
girls and it's twisted Like it'ssome dark, dark stuff.
So, yeah, their beliefs arequite extreme, so it was a
culture shock for us, right?
Well, yeah, it was a realroundabout way to get to like we

(01:12:14):
had to fight for our faith outthere you know.
So our prayer life got a lotstronger, like our knowledge of
the word, but also understandingwhat they believe and where
they come from, Because ifsomebody doesn't feel understood
, they're not going to listen toyou you know you can talk at
people all the time, but whensomebody says, oh, they
understand me, they know whereI'm coming from.

(01:12:35):
Yeah.
That it brings down defenses andand and people are a lot more
willing to listen.
Um, so it was, uh, you know the, the craziest thing we've ever
done.
Like I said, it was hard movingfrom family and being away from
everybody, but it also, I mean,it was the best thing we've

(01:12:55):
ever done.
It trained us up for, I mean,for what we do now.
You know, yeah, you guys wereout there for a year.
It was pretty much exactly ayear.
Our first Sunday, there wasEaster.
Our last Sunday, there wasEaster.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So it came down to Now.
When we went, pastor Jared saidare you willing to commit?

(01:13:17):
To just commit to a year, justso we can have a solid year to
build and grow and kind ofreevaluate after the year is
over.
And I'll tell you, ourintention was to stay.
Like I, I'm a planner, I'm kindof a math science guy, so I
almost kind of looking ahead andtrying to kind of sort out what

(01:13:39):
everything's going to look like, I thought we'd be there for
five years at least really oh,yeah, yeah so I was.
We were working other jobs.
Jasmine worked at an old navyand I worked at a like an
outdoors sporting goods store.
I was selling shoes, nice andfun it was fun.
Uh, fun, I mean the sellingshoes part was fine, but I, the

(01:14:00):
conversations I had, what werewhat were more fun?
Because everybody you got tothink about it I'm a white guy
with blonde hair that talksabout jesus.
Everybody assumes I'm Mormon.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Right, right yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Like I'm just back from my mission so I'm all fired
up.
A mission being.
They go on a two-year missionstrip.
It used to be required.
Now it's kind of a little bitmore lax, but once a guy turns
18, girls do it too.
I think theirs is a bit shorter, but yeah, everybody thought I
was mormon for like months, butonce they found out I was

(01:14:35):
christian, then I had these.
They were some college age kids, so they were just a little bit
younger than me, or high schoolage kids who, uh.
So now they're starting to askme questions oh so what do you
believe?
What?
What do you mean?
You lead worship.
What is that?
because they have like a I thinkan organ player and they sing
some so these kids that areasking are part of the mormon,

(01:14:55):
oh, yeah, everyone out there isalmost everybody out there is
part of the mormon church gotcha, um, so then it kind of gave me
this, this mission field ofthese, these people who are
stuck with me for eight hours aday and we're all standing in
the same department, and it madefor some really cool
conversations.
I had a my boss was, and hewouldn't mind me telling you

(01:15:18):
this he was a gay Mormon and Iremember when I found out he was
a what A gay Mormon.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
And I remember going.
That seems like that wouldconflict.
Yeah.
What does that?
And for a long time it did.
Now there are prophets havingrevelation, where it doesn't
conflict anymore.
But I remember asking him and Iwas a little bit nervous
because I felt like I was kindof prying.
Yeah.
But because his family's Mormonand I said, man, what is that
like for you?
Like, what is?

(01:15:50):
Is that a hard experience, youknow?
Is that, is that a hard like?
What's it like with your family?
And he was actually incrediblyopen with me.
You know he said there's partsof it that are hard and it it
gave me a great appreciation for, like meeting somebody where
they are and loving them wherethey are, but also just kind of

(01:16:11):
relying on the Lord to say God,like, give me the words to say
here Like you know, I don't knowhow to reach this.
He was hurt by the church.
So he said he still believedthe doctrine but wasn't totally
a practicing Mormon, and so itwas.
I mean, we invited him to ourhouse for Thanksgiving and got
to do all kinds of kind of coolstuff like that and built a

(01:16:32):
pretty cool relationship withhim and uh, you know, as much as
I'd love to say it was, he gotsaved and all that.
You know that didn't happen.
But I, I truly believe that.
You know.
You know the Bible says some ofus plant the seed.
So my hope is, and my prayer is, that I was part of planting
that seed.
Yeah.
And somebody's going to be thereto water it and yeah, god's

(01:16:54):
chasing after him.
But yeah, it was.
Yeah, just I mean we miss it,we miss Utah.
We loved it out there.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
And you were so reluctant in going at the
beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
I know, that's exactly it, man.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
All right.
So, lastly, then you come backafter a year.
Is there a reason why youwanted to come back or were
called to come back?

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
Yeah, so I never wanted to come back.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Oh gotcha.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
I actually pretty now .
I say that I mean there was apart of me that like I wanted to
be by my family, you know, andbe around you know.
So the community that we had,um, so, but I honestly I viewed
that part of me like as my flesh, you know, because the the big
thing that I honestly was kindof scared about there is where
it says he who puts his hand tothe blower and looks back isn't

(01:17:46):
fit for ministry.
And I was like you know, I wentthrough kind of this eight
month journey of like I can'teven think about Michigan or
else I'm looking back and thatmakes me unfit for ministry, you
know, and I was like reallystrict with myself, like I
wouldn't talk about it.
I wouldn't like I would talk topeople from here but I wouldn't
tell people I missed it, Iwouldn't tell people that I

(01:18:06):
thought about it.
I would like that was my secret, like I gotta fix this, you
know, um, and then you know the,you know the Lord takes you by
the hand and kind of graciouslywalks you through some of the
stupid things we say like that,like that's, that's not what
that means, you know.
And he showed me.
No, this is.
This is what makes this asacrifice for you, josh, is that

(01:18:27):
you love those things and youlove those people and you laid
them down.
For me, that's.
And so I kind of came to thisthing of oh, it's, it's okay to
miss it there, that's what makesthis cost something, that's
what makes this, what makes mylife sacrificial, right, you
know.
So, then, everything in my lifeand it still is, you know, it's
, it's okay where what I believethat God wants to bless me,

(01:18:54):
right, jesus came that we wouldhave life and have life in
abundance.
Now that scripture gets twistedand pulled and manipulated to
fit all kinds of false doctrines, but I truly believe that means
god, jesus, god wants to blessus, right.
I do not need to go out of myway to find those blessings
Right.
So that what kind of what I'vecome to is?

(01:19:15):
I want to live.
Just like I said at thebeginning of this, I want to
live a life in submission.
That's what I'm called to do isput my life in submission.
I have free agency.
I get to choose.
Right, because I am hismasterpiece, who was created
long ago with a plan and apurpose.
Right Ephesians 2.10, that Godhas created me with purpose.
I get to decide if I walk inthat or if I walk outside of

(01:19:39):
that right and, like I said,there is not just one straight
line to walk in that purpose.
But my concern is not God.
How are you going to bless me?
It's Lord.
I trust you to bless me and tocare for my heart.
You have that.
I submit that to you.
I'm just going to focus onbeing in submission to you, you
know.
So I got to this point of likeI felt like my heart had healed

(01:19:59):
from leaving.
We had some amazing communityout in Utah we still do.
I mean people that just blessedus so much and people were, I
mean, praying prophetic thingsover us and had prophetic dreams
for us that are like, I mean,just like we had never
experienced.
You know, just people reallyoperating in this desperation
and kind of the lack ofchristian culture makes the

(01:20:22):
pockets that there are soincredibly rich.
Yeah, you know, yeah, and uh,that was.
It was so, so incredible for usto be exposed to that, because
I've seen glimpses of it here.
Right, I don't mean to makeMichigan sound like it's dead.
It's not.
There are spirit-filledChristians here that are living
their lives for Jesus.
But it's a lot easier to livein a place of complacency here.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Oh for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
And just kind of live in comfortability.
And so we got to the point ofwe're plugged in, we've got our
people here in Utah where theteam was growing Like we got
into a building and we're seeingGod kind of provide for us over
and over and over again.
And I remember we.
So Pastor Sam called me while Iwas in Utah.

(01:21:14):
I was there for about sixmonths.
He said hey, I know you, um, Iknow you, you committed to a
year out there?
I know you did.
He said would would you justconsider praying about what's
happening after that year?
He's like we'll wait for you.
And uh, and I remember in thatmoment I was like, yeah, I'll
pray about it.
Click, I'm not going.
You know, the same thing I didwith Utah.

(01:21:35):
And but you know, I'm trying topractice what I preach, right,
it's not going to live insubmission and God, I'm going to
bring this to you in prayer andjust try to seek you.
And it was about three monthsafter that, you know it's.
I had been praying and it wasthe same thing.
I was like God, if you're goingto call us out of here, please

(01:21:55):
don't, but if you're going tospeak to my wife, you know, and,
sure enough, one day we'redriving kind of through the
mountains into town and Jasminegoes.
You know, life was, it's kindof really been on my heart
recently and it was like theseconflicting emotions of like the
spiritual unity and theexcitement of, yes, god's
speaking the same thing to herand, honestly, this total

(01:22:17):
crushing of oh.
But that means I have to move.
You know, and that was, I thinkit was harder for me to move to
Michigan than it was for me tomove to Utah, cause there was no
thing that happened that kindof helped.
That was the catalyst oflaunching us out of Utah into
Michigan.
It was very much a well, now Ihave to sit down with people and

(01:22:40):
say this is just what God'scalling us to do and what that
thing was why we're here, Ibelieve wholeheartedly is we
were shown what desperationlooks like and what it means to
live a life that's sold out forJesus.
Right, and I truly I think Ilearned what it means to be.
When people ask me well, what'sworship?
How do you describe it?
What do you?
I try not to overcomplicate it,but I just go.

(01:23:03):
I want to be a Romans 12, oneworshiper, right, romans 12, one
says we're called to come andlay ourselves down as a living
and acceptable sacrifice, right,or living in a holy sacrifice
that he would find acceptable.
This is our true way to worshiphim, yeah, right.
So my, anytime I'm stepping onthe platform, if I'm in my room,
if I'm in a small group, it'sGod.
I'm here to surrender myself toyou, to surrender the things

(01:23:26):
that I need.
Those things don't matter,right, they do.
God cares about the things inyour life.
There's no thing too small,right, he cares about every
single piece.
But I'm saying they don'tmatter as much to me as you do,
right, the provision I need inthis situation doesn't matter as
much as me coming and bringingan offering of worship.
Right, I'm not bringing a calf,I'm not bringing a goat, I'm

(01:23:49):
not bringing a goat, I'm notbringing an ox that I'm
sacrificing to you.
I'm coming and I'm bringing asacrifice of praise to you,
right, and that?
We started a prayer and worshipnight out there you talk about
like being thrown in the deepend.
We started it as soon as we gotthere and I thought, oh, we'll
do it for an hour.
And our pastor was like, let'sdo like two hours.

(01:24:10):
And I was like, all right, wecan do that.
And next thing, I know Jasmineis part of a freedom group out
there, like a spiritual freedomkind of thing, and it's on the
same night as our encounternights of prayer and worship.
So for the first three or fourmonths, it is just me every
Tuesday with an acoustic guitar,leading this prayer and worship

(01:24:32):
time.
When I tell you, I wasdeveloped spiritually but also
practically in my instrument andlearning to play by ear and um,
but it just was.
You know, we were, we werestretched and refined, refined
into what we needed to be, to beable to.
I really believe God depositedsomething in us there that we're
supposed to bring back here,right, which is this sacrificial

(01:24:55):
, selfless spirit of worship,right, and the freedom that
comes from that right.
I heard a great thing from thisworship leader.
He said when we get caught upchasing the miracle over the
miracle worker, he said, when weget caught up chasing the
miracle over the miracle worker,we've missed it.
You know, and I remember it waslike this kind of this check.

(01:25:17):
It wasn't like this I don'tthink conviction is the right
word, but kind of like oh, Idon't even know if I've thought
of that before.
You know what I mean.
Growing up in this culture,it's we always want to see
mighty moves of God and we wantto see healings and we want to
see and those things arehappening, right?
So I'm not trying to sound likea cessationist, but that can't

(01:25:38):
be.
That can't be.
Why we worship?
Because of the things we getout of it.
Cause that's self, that'sselfish.
Right, that's about me.
It's I need something from this.
So what can I get out of this,out of this, this thing, where
what worship is is it is aselfless, something full of
humility and making ourselveslow and saying Lord, you are
above us and you are worthy ofall of our worship and all of

(01:26:00):
our praise.
So I feel like our heart andour understanding of that was
refined and changed and nowwe're being planted back in the
place where we go all right,we're on fire and we're going to
light these people on fire too.
Yeah, spiritually.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
Right, hopefully, yeah, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:17):
But so, yeah, man, it's, and I feel like I've been
talking so much but it's still.
I haven't even told the wholestory.
But we just God has moved usand changed us and refined us,
and we still, every single day,I have to go Lord, we, we submit
our lives to you, we submit ourdesires to you, um and God, we

(01:26:38):
just trust you.
We trust you with oureverything you know and it's, I
wouldn't trade it for the world.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
All right, yeah, that's a good way to end.
I think, all right, yeah,that's a good way to end.
I think, there you go.
Yeah, so live a life ofsubmission and fight complacency
.
Yes, yes.
I do think that, like you said,when, when we grow up and around
West Michigan, the Bible belt,it is easy to get comfortable
and like, not like skip a day,like cause I, I'm one of those

(01:27:08):
people who wants to live theChristian life every day, but
it's like growing up as a kidwhen everybody's going to church
.
It's like you just don't reallythink about that because,
everybody's the same and you'renot really.
You're not in this stage oflike crying out to the Lord
because everything's so good.
Yep.
But anyway thank you for comingon.

(01:27:29):
That was, but anyway thank youfor coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
That was a really nice story, thank you.
Thanks for having me.
It was fun to listen to.
I hope so.
I feel like I made you listenthe the whole time.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
No, I thought I was just it was good it was.
There was like some of themormon history was interesting
and yeah your story was great,so thank you, and I have no idea
what I'm going to title this,but everybody else who's
listening have a blessed weekand thanks for listening.

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