029: Faith and Machines: A Tale of Creativity and Challenge. With Brandon Kamphuis

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     I apologize beforehand for the dog barking and the squeaky chair. I live in an apartment right now and am saving up for my own studio. I tried my best to mute these extra sounds but I can only do so much Bear with me along this journey and thanks for listening. 

     Brandon is currently working as a worship director and volunteers at the local robotics team as a coach and mentor to middle schoolers.

     What if the path to becoming a worship leader was filled with unexpected turns and creative hurdles? Join us as we share the journey of navigating the worship director application process, where recording worship songs with minimal equipment reveals the true essence of musical diversity across church styles. Discover the unique dynamics of working in small versus large church communities, and how each offers a distinct experience in fostering connections and planning services.

     Explore the fascinating intersection of music and robotics, as we recount personal experiences in appreciating the nuances of music and the importance of balancing song elements. From orchestrating worship services to engaging young minds in robotics, learn how volunteering and adaptive communication can enhance productivity and bring fresh perspectives to life's challenges. Hear about the strategies for improving service flow in church settings and the enrichment gleaned from blending passions.

Funding challenges, awards, and the delicate balance between teaching and competition—robotics programs offer a world of insight. Listen in as we unravel the financial intricacies of school robotics and the relentless pursuit of the Inspire Award, emphasizing the vital role of fundraising and mentor involvement. Reflect on the broader implications of faith, spirituality, and belief in the unseen, as personal anecdotes weave through discussions of divine signs, cryptids, and living a purposeful life.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
application email like they asked me a bunch of to
send them a bunch of materialum church and I said I sent them
some recordings of of meleading a service and stuff and
since I didn't have anyrecordings of me leading like an
actual service and I justrecorded myself playing do a
couple worship songs and thatwas as good as I could, so I
could do it.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
So recording on the drums on the piano.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
So I I would uh, just kind of go all in one take
because I didn't want to keeppausing and then playing,
because I just recorded on myphone, like the actual um audio
was through my computer, um, butthen the, the visual was just
my phone camera.
So I would like just like wavemy hands in front of the camera
and then give like a thumbs up,as like before every take, so I

(00:45):
can eventually find the the oneand line it up with the, with
the video, which is kind offunny.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
But so when you sent it in, it was lined up with the
video.
Yeah, yeah nice.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
It was kind of a weird process because I don't I
didn't want to buy like a niceum, like I didn't want to buy
speakers and and like a nice setof speakers for my keyboard and
try to like find my like a nicecamera to buy too.
So my phone camera is just fine, like I don't.
It didn't really need to beanything extra Right More so the
audio, I think, is they justwanted to see the and in here

(01:17):
how I just go through a song, Ithink so it was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Was that for your uh new position at the church as a
worship leader?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yep.
So I applied to a couple ofplaces and it was just the same
thing pretty much.
So it was different songs forevery place, though, which was
kind of fun because the churchthat I'm at now they don't
typically play a ton of newstuff.
It's more of mid-2000s,probably late-2000s, so this

(01:51):
brand new stuff that comes outprobably not on their radar.
It would just be a littleawkward for the people that are
there In a good way.
But not like I'm complainingabout it, it's just a different
style that they're used to.
You know, I'm complaining aboutit, right?
Um, it's just a different stylethat they're used to.
Um, and some of the otherplaces I I apply to, they uh,
are very much like, uh, like,even like res, I would say like,

(02:11):
very like let's play this moreupbeat like almost pentecostal
gospel type stuff yeah stuffthat you hear on the radio a
little bit more.
I'm not saying that it's bad,but definitely uh it's, I'm used
to hearing all that stuff.
Like you're saying it's bad,brandon, I know right I'm used
to hearing all that stuffalready because I've been to

(02:33):
different places, which is kindof nice, so sometimes I forget
how, um, how many people back athome maybe not are not used to
going to a place like, like um,like res, life or like the
foundry is another one.
That's like kind of being likehip is so it's a word, I guess,
yeah, yeah, that that's not aword that I like using with

(02:55):
church, with that, with thatchurch, but seems like right,
but I know, I know what you'retrying to say.
Yeah yeah, I probably shouldn'tbe naming these churches either,
but I'll I'll try to refrainfrom that, I'll just yeah say,
I'm going to tell them, I'mgoing to tag them in all the
clips.
They just have like a massivespike in like foundry viewers.
As everybody starts commenting,it's like who is this guy?

(03:17):
Good thing we didn't hire him.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Right, Uh, so are you just playing at that church
that you're at right now, or areyou still kind of uh?

Speaker 1 (03:27):
so I, I'm, I'm worship directing, so I'm just
planning out services, whatever.
Um the, the sermon is that week, Then I, then I try to plan it
out accordingly.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
So that's, that's the fun part.
That's something that I that Ienjoy doing at uh or while I was
interning there, um cause I gotto work with like the staff
really closely, which I think isnot typical in a, in a bigger
church.
I think it's kind of like justfocus more on the music side of
things and then you know if itso happens to line up with the

(03:57):
word or the message and that's.
That's fine, um.
But I I enjoy working closelywith um, like the small staff
that they have there, like thetwo or the one lead pastor,
because I don't.
I think some of the other placesI've seen, it can kind of be
like even at, even at Res whereI was volunteering, it's like,

(04:18):
you know, the main worshippastor does his own thing, yeah,
and then the rest of thevolunteers are kind of left, you
know, to do their thing, orlike interns, like I think
Mackenzie was in training at thetime, and it's like this is
when I first started playing andor volunteering to play and
like even even the worshipleaders for like specific

(04:38):
ministries there, like youngadults and in high school
they're kind of are separate.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
So you're, so you're saying you like the fact that
the whole team is kind of oneteam.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, that's a huge benefit, I think, in working as
an actual whole staff sense.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Right, it's more of like a full community.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
I think it comes with its own challenges too, like
for both sides of it, right.
Like at a bigger church, I thinkit can be hard to connect
individually more becausethere's so many people, um, but
at this church, like plus, I'vegrown up there, so I know most
of the people that, like theolder people that are that have
been there for a while, um, andthat helps, um, but it's
definitely a lot closer knit, Ifeel like there's there are some

(05:23):
things that I um that can bemore personal, like when you're
having conversations with peopleyou know, right, um, I don't
have to like find a group andjust hang out with them, but,
which is which is good.
I really enjoyed it.
It kind of forces me to uh,always be aware of what um
people may like accommodatingfor, not just volunteers, but,
you know, kind of being moreopen to what people may be going

(05:44):
through on a Sunday morning,right, not everybody wants to be
there on a Sunday morning, soit's sometimes it's nice to you
know, kind of relate to that orjust say something about it.
It's like, hey, thanks forcoming to worship with us this
morning.
You know, just like some of youmay be going through something
rough and like hear thescripture, or maybe I'll have
somebody come up and readscripture Like it's, it's fun.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Do you feel that, being at a smaller church, you
have more community with thecongregation as a whole as well?

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Um, I think so.
Yeah, I definitely feel thatit's like I've never worked at a
at a huge church.
I've only volunteered at one ora couple.
So it's I don't, I don't.
I can't speak on like actuallyworking at a place in terms of
like staff, but in terms of likegetting to know people, um, I
feel like is is a lot easier,for sure at at my home church,

(06:35):
since it's like two or 300people, and then some of the
bigger places I've been tothere's there's between like one
or two services for likeprobably like a thousand people
or yeah pretty close right, yep,um, and yeah, definitely can
feel like you can get lostsometimes and did you ever play
in the main at res?
I did not, nope a couple peoplementioned like oh, I think you'd

(06:57):
have a lot of fun trying totrying to play in the main and I
never got to it.
So and this was like rightbefore I left for school too I
remember Tiffany it was Tiffanyor Landon they just asked me if
I ever thought about playing inthe main for like a Sunday
morning and I told them, maybebut I know that they have more
rehearsals for that.
Like if I were to play on aSunday, then I'd have to come in

(07:18):
like once or twice forrehearsal, and I don't think it
ever lined up with my scheduleand they wanted to keep me for
Thursday nights.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
So they have to find people to play.
It gets hard when that happens.
When you're music directing,you're doing a lot of the
behind-the-scenes type stuff,but are you ever on stage with
the band playing keys?
Do you ever sing?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Really, I didn't know you sang yeah, it's.
Uh, let's see.
When I started turning there,it was last year.
It was like end of may Istarted interning there so may
of 2023?

Speaker 2 (07:59):
yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
And uh, I would say that's really the first time I I
well, well, I had to startsinging.
Um, I sat down with with uh, heused to be the worship director
.
Now he, him and his wife movedto New York recently.
Um, jeff, um and he, we do.
We just kind of talked aboutyou know what my goals were for
for the time that I was there.
And um, I remember right away,like right off the bat, he's

(08:22):
like do you sing?
And I'm like I sing, but Idon't know if I'm good at
singing and I've never had tosing for for you know anything.
And uh, like I, at that point Iwas, I got pretty nervous up in
front of people, right Cause Ididn't know how I sounded, I
didn't.
I like I never took any vocallessons growing up.
And so he's like let's justsing a song right now.

(08:47):
So I was like, wait, Just anysong.
It was the first day I think wesang.
It was God so Loved, so westarted out with.
It was by, like we, the Kingdom,so it's kind of like a, it's
like a six or it's like a four,four, you know, kind of a.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Fun rhythm, yeah, or it's like a four four, you know
kind of a fun rhythm.
Yeah, it's like a more upbeatsong yeah, um, that was pretty
challenging.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
I probably sounded awful the first time I sang um
because we weren't singing, likeI wasn't.
Actually it was weird, I, I wassinging, but I wasn't giving it
even probably like 50, justbecause it felt awkward to like
fully sing out like if I'm on astage it's a little different,
especially when you're in a roomwith just like one other person
I think that's harder to singor be vulnerable versus in front

(09:33):
of a group of people whichsounds like it wouldn't be that
way, but it definitely is yeah,yeah, no, absolutely.
It's like, if you can, if youcan hear yourself too, that
helps.
So like I've appreciated thelike what in-ears actually allow
to do, like I've always usedin-ears for like either mixing,
like my own stuff or or, youknow, projects for school, but
it's it's always been like I'mhearing somebody else's voice.
So it's almost like.

(09:54):
I don't know.
Maybe this isn't true, maybeit's just me like, regardless of
how nice the audio quality is,if I'm just listening to a song
like I, it just is a song liketo me, I'm not focused on, like
I'm not noticing those things.
So so when I, when I firststarted singing and like turning
myself up, like I learned toappreciate all the other you

(10:17):
know sounds coming in andactually like focusing on how to
balance all those, if I everwanted to right, and you don't
want it to get like too much,right, but especially at a place
like that, like it doesn't needto be super fancy, but it was
just kind of neat to almost haveto relearn some of that stuff
as a and playing too Right, Ihad to relearn how to play piano
, um, to help me sing better,cause at that point I was trying

(10:41):
to like focus on the piano andjust the piano and everything I
can, and sometimes I just can't.
So that's just the way I am.
So I'm like I can't doeverything fancy.
It doesn't have to be superfancy.
Like singing is the is how youlead Um.
Like you can lead from aninstrument, um, but if you're
leading, if you have like acertain theme going and uh, like

(11:03):
you want some of the songs tomatch the, the scripture, and
you're kind of going in adirection and you want to repeat
something, then you know it's alot more focused on the vocal
side of things, because that's,I think that's where most people
feel connected.
Um is through the vocals andthen the instrument is like a
secondary thing to that.
Like adds everything to thecolor, yeah, everything
everything works together, um,because you can definitely tell.

(11:24):
Tell who's playing aninstrument, even if you can't
hear who's playing it right.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
It's just like I can tell if you're playing bass, I
can tell if Aiden's playing keys.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
You mean without seeing?

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, without seeing, and I think that's.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Really, you've memorized my style, memorized
your style.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
yeah, All the wrong notes that you've ever played uh
written them down.
Um, every service, every service, but that's just kind of like a
maybe it's not, that's not ascommon for like normal people.
Maybe I'm just, maybe it's justbecause I am a musician, or
like we're musicians, so wenotice a little bit of those,
those smaller details.
But I'm like, most of the timeI I feel like that's the case

(12:04):
for me when I'm, when I'mlistening back on like a Sunday
recording or like a live stream,like I'll try to really be like
nitpicky on, like Not notnecessarily my how I'm like my
singing anymore.
It's more of like how, how islike the flow of the service
going?
But did I have like an awkwardgreet or did I have, you know,

(12:26):
did I not word this nicely orwhat can I always?
What can I do to make it feelmore like, not like maybe not
rehearsed as like a good word touse, but like more inviting or
like more open?
I know he, jeff, really told meto focus on that.
Um, whenever I started doingthat on my own, like if I, if I

(12:48):
had to do that on my own someday, if that was my job, um, he's
like you really want to beinvolved, as involved as you can
with the church, right?
But then, try to accommodate forpeople Like, um, I guess I'll I
like to spew off topic a lot,but, um, like I, I enjoy working
with volunteers, um, especiallyfor, like, leading rehearsals,

(13:09):
um, because everybody playsdifferently and everybody has a
different way of communicatingwith each other.
Yeah and uh, that's been reallyhelpful for me, especially when
volunteering for, like, arobotics team, like with a bunch
of friends, right.
Like it's focused on.
I've had to like switch mybrain on and off to accommodate
for kids but then also try tohave that same mindset with an

(13:31):
adult group.
But it can be a little bit more.
I can rely on those people alittle bit more.
But it's just kind of forced meto be open-minded on what's
going on and try to behyper-aware on like what's going
on and try to be like hyperaware.
Um, I always joke around sayinglike this time of year is
probably my most productive timeof year once robotics starts,
cause it always tries.
I always try to keep myself onlike busy and like on my toes,

(13:54):
so if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
But wait, what do you mean?
It's the most productive.
I mean, I get that you'reprobably more productive with
robotics cause it's roboticseason but how does?
That make you more productivein the other areas of your life.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, maybe it's not, maybe it's a combination of of
the word productive and likehyper aware is is, is like
another good one to use.
So, like it, it kind of um,like it puts me in a good
mindset to just kind ofconstantly be aware of what's
going on.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Um could it be because it's like you're so busy
with robotics, it's like noneof this time can be wasted?

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Probably yeah, because we get a limited time
with the kids to build adesigner robot, and then there's
a bunch of other things that gowith it too.
So it's like how do we make themost of each meeting?
It kind of translates probablyover to rehearsals, like how do
we make the most of this time,this one day we get to meet, and
that's something I feel likeobviously people will like

(14:51):
anybody in my that does what Ido, like in my shoes like that's
something that they continue towork on like throughout their
time at a church.
I guess, like, as you get toknow people, you kind of figure
out how to you just kind of haveto step into it.
Sometimes this is like, oh, Icould have done this better,
like maybe I'll prepare this inadvance, more for for next

(15:13):
rehearsal, or I'll have in mind,like how, I kind of want to go
through this song a little bitdifferently, but yeah, it's,
it's fun.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
So how long does it take to make a robot or a robot?

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Oh yeah, jump into robotics.
We uh so every every year.
Um, sometimes I forget thestart date when they like to
release the new game every year.
I shouldn't, I shouldn'tmemorize this by now, but you
know yeah, you really should,right.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Come on, brandon.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
In September, um, they released a new game, um,
and the field is the same everyyear.
So, like it's a, it's a nine,sorry, it's a six by six grid
and each, each tile they're likethose foam tiles and each tile
is like I think it's two feet bytwo feet and in dimensions, and

(16:03):
then there's like a, like aplexiglass border that goes
around the field.
That's like a foot high, um, sothat stays the same every year
and then each game is different.
So they'll have like, um,different, like things that you
have to do in order to completetasks, for points, um, so like
last year was um, they had like,the main thing that you scored
on was like this backdrop, likeon one side of the field, and

(16:25):
each.
So you're, you're split up intotwo teams.
There's red and blue team andthere's two alliances per team,
so there's two other.
There's there's two robotscompeting against two robots at
all times, and it's allrandomized.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
It's never a free for all, where there's like six
robots.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
No, no, no, where there's like six robots.
No, no, no, it's.
Uh.
Well, yeah, it's never likeeveryone against everyone type
deal and it's not battle bots.
We get asked a lot of those uhlike battle bots questions like,
oh, do you guys like destroyother robots, like can you tip
other robots over?
And it's like no, it's likethat'd be fun, but um, it's more
of, like you know, completingtasks for points um, and then

(17:03):
every school has um some sort ofrobotics team.
It seems like, uh like youdon't have to be affiliated with
the school to have like tocompete in this program.
There's a ton of differentrobotics programs out there.
Um, this one's the biggest oneum for middle school.
Um in Michigan there's like 700teams.
I think there's probably morethan 700 this year because they
keep growing yeah um, but yeah,we have, uh, seven weeks to

(17:28):
build, design our design, buildand then program a robot to
compete at whatever regionalsdistricts if we make it estates,
um competitions after um, thoseseven weeks, so you can kind of
pick and choose which ones youwant to go to.
Yeah, so, yeah, then there's somuch more to it than just like

(17:49):
the thing that moves on thefield, right, right.
Which is what I kind of likeabout this program is you can't
really win by yourself.
You have to, you have toactually work with like
different brains.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Everyone has to work together collectively and that's
the fun side, especiallymentoring, getting to mentor
middle schoolers.
They're way smarter than Ithink people give them credit
for, and we have.
You know, we really try to pickgood students that we think,
would you know, can at leastlisten for more than like a
couple of seconds Right.

(18:21):
It's more of like we're notlooking for students who
necessarily can like designstuff or like.
I have experience using thisdesign software.
I've experienced programming.
It's like that's like part ofit.
But if there's a student who isreally good at listening and
they're super passionate aboutother things but they like can
convey that at tryouts when wehave tryouts, then we'll choose

(18:42):
that student over some otherstudent who may have like, who
may be really good at designingsomething but can't listen or is
like super rude, right right,it's like yeah, you've got to be
a team player, yeah, and Ithink that makes sense right I
think that translates into themusic world too I think so
yeah yeah, yep, um, I think,getting back to the tryouts

(19:03):
thing, like we've been asked alot of questions by by parents,
like okay, why can't you guyshave like everyone joined Right,
cause even even that kid thatlike may have trouble paying
attention or is like really rude, like those are skills that he
can still work on if he joinsthe team Right?
And uh, we only have, um, it'sonly, it's only my, my friend
group, so so it's like fivementors and and um, the max

(19:27):
you're allowed, uh, per team,before you have to split up into
more teams, um is 15 kids anduh, so it's five mentors split
up between we have 13.
Um and uh, that's like we feellike it's the most, um, like
comfortable number.
Like each student gets to pick,kind of like what they, what

(19:48):
they wanna, what subgroup theywanna go in.
Um, so like once we actuallykind of once we're done with the
brainstorming part of things,like right away, like figuring
out the game, like what do wewant to do, how do we score?
Um, the kids will do like robotbrainstorming, you know,
brainstorm what they want therobot to accomplish, and like
how, what strategy they want toimplement for the game.
Um, they'll split off in adifferent subgroup.

(20:09):
So like there's programming,build, design, um, marketing,
which is like presentation,portfolio stuff, yeah, um, and
then each one of us will kind oftake over that group, um, so I
kind of hop around with with.
I mostly stick with design, butthen I hop around with the
marketing group too, becausethat's a lot of fun, that's like
the creative side, so that youget some students who may not

(20:31):
enjoy the catting or like theprogramming side of things or
build, so then they can do thatstuff right, like there's,
there's a lot more.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
What is marketing?
What do you mean by that CauseI'm thinking of?
They're trying to sell this toother people kind of it's like
promoting the team.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
So okay, doing a lot of community event stuff, gotcha
yep, and you don't have to dothat right like right if you
want.
Um, so there's different awards.
There's like robot relatedawards um and then there's like
team related awards, um, and thebig the, the most prestigious
one in this program is is calledthe inspire award and it's kind
of the name is prettyself-inspired award.

(21:07):
Yeah, okay and uh, it's.
It's kind of like like yourteam has really done well in all
the categories, kind of thing.
Yeah, um, it's like, I think inthe actual description of the
awards, um, it's like a rolemodel team is like the, the
first in the first sentence.
So it's like, okay, what doesthat mean?
Right, like you could have agreat robot and like just

(21:29):
destroy the competition, butthen, if you like you, you don't
necessarily you can't win thataward every single time, even
though your robot might be thegreatest.
Like another team that reallytries to promote their, their
team, by like going to likecompany tours or like sponsors,
right, Cause a lot of teams havesponsors to give them money for
the for the season Cause noneof this stuff is free.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Right, right Um it's not funded by the school.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Um, no, no, some schools do, um, we do not.
So I mean it's, I think, lastseason just for traveling cause,
cause the kids made it toworlds last year that was around
like 23 or 24, 24 and a halfgrand just for, just for travel,
just to get there as in 20, 24000 yep.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Wow, that was.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
That's a lot yep, and that's crazy that was not
including food so that was, thatwas hotel, that was everything
else, though that was hotels.
We, we had to figure out modesof transportation to get like
around in Houston.
It was in Houston, which wasHouston's fun, but, um, they,
they had to experience Houstonfor the first time.
So most of them grew up here inZealand.

(22:36):
So, um, but yeah, it was like23, 24 and a half grand, I think
, um, if I remember correctly,correctly, just just for, like,
travel and hotels and everythingelse, and then parents
organized food while we werethere and then we actually had a
gofundme, and part of thatmoney from the or I would say
most of the money from thegofundme was actually for just

(22:57):
food.
So, like, each student got umlike a certain amount of cash,
like, if they wanted to like, ifwe weren't having like a team
dinner or like a team meal, thenthey could go out and get food
and stuff uh with their parents.
So that was kind of fun, um.
But yeah, a lot of the thefundraising stuff is is kind of
up to the team.
So, um, most of it is sponsorswas sponsors last year.

(23:20):
So, uh, two companies that umusually sponsor us in like robot
parts kind of way, um, theygave us a bunch of money for
travel when, when, when the teamfound out that we were making
it to uh to Houston, um, so thatwas that was awesome.
Um, and I would say most teamsit's like that um, they get
money from sponsors um, and likevarious people who want to

(23:41):
donate money um, which is stillsponsors, right, yeah, not
specifically like companies.
And then some teams do likedifferent fundraisers, like
Hungry Howie's is a popular onearound in Zealand, like I don't
know, chipotle like anyrestaurant, fundraiser right.
Yeah, and the GoFundMe was justa, you know, simple idea that

(24:04):
one of the parents had.
It's like any money you can getright.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
It doesn't have to just go to travel.
But yeah, that was, that wasthe travel cost side of it.
Last year was was the big one.
But anyways, going back towhere, where would we kind of
veer off from?
I was talking about like season.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
We were.
So the original question thatgot us in the robotics is how
long does it take to make arobot?

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
And then you were talking about marketing team.
Oh yeah, different subgroups,yeah, different subgroups.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
And then you asked about, yeah, marketing.
So, yeah, I think, yeah, thebiggest thing with the robotics
program is like this one,specifically, is, um, like
promoting the program.
So last year, um, the onlyreason they made it to worlds
was they won that inspire wordat the state level, which which

(25:03):
got them, uh, got them, a slot,um, and I think they're only,
they were only accepting, likein Michigan, out of like the 700
plus teams.
It was like 12 slots that allallowed you to go to Houston.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
And so to get like in one of those slots was like a
huge achievement for them.
But most of it is promoting theactual program.
So once we got there we kind ofgot a feel for, like what the
competition is like at the toplevel.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
The students still wanted to try to go for that
award still at Worlds, right,and if you win the award at the
state level that allows you toget to Worlds, you have the
right to compete for it andactually try.
They presented somepresentation and then they had a
portfolio that they madethroughout the season.
You can do all that.
If you didn't win it at thestate level, then you weren't

(25:53):
allowed to partake for thataward.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Um, which makes sense and um, so it was like the best
of the best and a lot of thoseteams um, uh, that like made it
to the finals for that award, alot of them like started their
own teams and, um, it's hard todo at the middle school level
because like limited resources,right, it's not even I would say
it's mostly not even a resourcething, like money thing, it's

(26:17):
it's people who can actuallylike coach a team or like it's
like you can't.
Just it's it's really hard forsomebody to step into like this
program without having a coupleof years of, or even like a year
of experience already.
It's like my buddies and I wedid that all throughout in high
school or throughout high school, right, so we had like four or
five plus years just of thatprogram experience.

(26:39):
So you were doing robotics inhigh school yourself Yep Same
program, just at the high schoollevel.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Okay.
Were you one of the students inthat, or were you always just a
mentor?

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yep of the students, yep and and so like.
Coming back to mentor, we had ahuge advantage because we knew
what the, the actual likeprogram was.
Yeah, and like, you can be thebest engineer ever and I'm not
an engineer, but you can be thebest engineer ever and and not
know how to teach.
So that's true, it can go bothways and that's a lot of fun
because it's challenging for whohas who's ever like coaching or

(27:13):
mentoring too.
Like you're learning rightalongside the, the kids and um
like the one of the best teamsin michigan, uh, there are the,
our sister team.
Technically they're, they'rethe other zealand middle school.
Um, zealand has two middleschools city side and creek side
.
Um, the coach of that team.
He's, he's an actual liketeacher at that school and he's
like he's helped mentor the teamin high school when we were in

(27:34):
the high school team, like likea couple of years ago.
Um, but him and his brotheractually.
So his brother, um, works at acompany.
He's an engineer at somecompany in Zealand, uh, zealand,
holland, and the two of themrun that team and uh, it's, it's
the same thing, right, like he,he has a lot more like teaching
experience, so he's really goodat connecting with the kids, um
, and and, and, you know, layingthe foot down when he needs to,

(27:56):
uh, but then he has his brother, who's also good at the like,
very specific, like roboticstuff.
Yeah, not saying that you can'tbe.
You don't have to be anengineer to be really good at
that stuff too, which is kind ofcool as well.
Like right, I'm not an engineerLike my all as well.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Like right, I'm not an engineer.
Like my all my friends went toschool, but could what you're
doing translate into youbecoming a good engineer?

Speaker 1 (28:15):
absolutely.
Yeah, I mean like that's not onmy, like my radar anytime soon,
but like part of the fun thingabout robotics specifically is
like this the skills that youlearn, like it's not just
necessarily for engineering,like I think engineering is is
is a lot of problem solving.
Well, yeah, programming and CADis yep, that's very specific

(28:37):
right.
Like, yeah, so they get some ofthe actual like robot related,
like mechanical stuff, likeprogramming stuff, so like
software and mechanical.
So they get that experience, um, which is still a big part of
engineering regardless, which isstill a big part of engineering
regardless of what you're doing.
There's some useful skills inthere.
But then, like the marketingside of things like they, they,
they you have to be able to talkto people talk to people and

(28:59):
actually like work as a team andthat's the biggest part of of
the whole program and like itsounds cheesy to say that, it's
like, ah, it's not just aboutthe robot experiencing all the
ups and downs of last year, likefrom from our side, like
mentors, like you know not, youknow not spending a ton of late
nights at the school, right,like that's a goal that we tried

(29:20):
to have this year Um and therewere other things too, like how
we, how we um like didn't planout some things very well.
It's just like we're just goingto kind of wing it today and and
like sometimes, after the,after the, after each um, some
of our meetings were like wow,we really didn't accomplish as
much as we wanted to because wedidn't have a game plan, like us
mentors and have a game plangoing in yeah, so it's like

(29:40):
being able to admit that to likeas a group after the season, um
, and still say like hey, theseare some things that you know
we're going to try to hold eachother accountable for.
Like that's huge and and I thinkthat's like the, that's one
step in becoming more of asuccessful like team
consistently.
It's just like betterexperience for the kids but also
better experience for us, right?
So, because it's all stillvolunteer stuff, um, like uh

(30:04):
chase he's, he's the coach ofthe actual team.
Um, he gets paid like 1500 forthe whole season from like city
side directly.
So the school technically giveshim money, but it's it's a
hundred bucks.
I think, we technically equatedit to like 3 cents an hour.
Last season One of the kidslike did some math for it and

(30:27):
he's like, yeah, you roughly getpaid like three or 4 cents an
hour.
It's kind of funny and yeah, sohe spent most of that money
just for like he bought the teamlike a 3d printer, um, or like
bought the team like you knowparts that we order from online
or something, um from variousvendors.
So didn't really use that moneyfor for anything personal.
But I think that's what mostpeople do if schools give them

(30:49):
like a, they just use it for theteam well is it.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Could it be that eventually, when you win state
or worlds enough, the schoollook at this and say, hey, we
should so that's a greatquestion more money into this
yeah, absolutely they.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
They allotted us a classroom this year, um, it's
it's still used throughout theday like normal teaching hours,
but it's only for one hour a dayand and so they're like, you
guys can have this space.
Um, you'll have to workalongside of whoever teaches in
that classroom during the day,um, just to make sure we're not
hogging up the whole classroomnecessarily, right, um, but we
get um, enough, we have enoughspace in that room, uh, for a

(31:25):
full field.
Um, and, and how it's been inyears past is we would usually
buy like half the field.
Um, so, like, every every yearwhen the new game's released,
like as soon as it's released,you can like, you can do
pre-orders too, of like what thefield's going to be.
So you get the field parts andlike, and they have to get it to
you within like a week.
Yeah, um, and uh, we've onlyused to buy like half the field

(31:46):
because we never had space forfor the full field, even though
we had all the tiles and all theother stuff to do it.
We just didn't have the space,um, and we I should be aware
that we didn't we didn't, we hadthe space, but we had to like
tear it down afterwards.
So it wasn't really worth, youknow, spending half an hour
setting up the field and thentearing it down every single
meeting, especially when youmeet like three or four times a

(32:07):
week.
So it's like you know, as soonas we get our own space then
we'll consider it.
And yeah, they gave us aclassroom this year and we can
use like the whiteboard in thatin that room and it has a TV
like on an arm.
So it's pretty updated and Ithink, that's.
I think that's even better thanmost teams, right, like, there's
probably a lot of teams outthere that don't have even a

(32:27):
whiteboard to do stuff on oreven like their own space for a
field Um, but then, yeah, we'reallowed to leave that, just set
up Um and uh, that room isusually locked after after the
one hour that um, they teach inthere and uh, uh, people can
like walk by the windows and seethe field Um, but then we're
also allowed to use, um, thespace like around that that
classroom.

(32:47):
So, um, like right outside theclassroom, around the corner,
corner, down the hall is is isthey call it the LGI center?
I don't exactly know what it,what it stands for, but it's
like an updated, like kind of Idon't know.
It's like a, like a space forjust learning, so that.

(33:07):
So they have a bunch ofbreakout rooms and each breakout
room has like a sliding door soyou can.
You can have like privacy ifyou want it.
Yeah, but each room has awhiteboard and a couple of
breakout rooms, um, and eachbreakout room has like a sliding
door so you can.
You can have like privacy ifyou want it.
Yeah, but each room has awhiteboard and a couple tables
set up in it, um, which isawesome because we can split
them up into groups for, like,brainstorming, whatever or like,
if programming wants to wantsto meet somewhere else, then
they can.
They can go in one of thoserooms and do stuff, um, like

(33:27):
hook up a laptop or tv orsomething um, and then all of
our tools, um, they gave us likestorage space, um, like up in a
loft, like downstairs, so we'reeverything's upstairs right now
, like all of our main yeah likeour fields upstairs, um.
so it's kind of nice becauseit's separate from the rest of
the school.
So like whenever they have likebasketball games or like
sporting events going on in thegym there, then it's kind of

(33:49):
it's not on the same floor asthat, so like whenever we're
meeting, sometimes it conflicts,so it's it's kind of like.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Conflicts, as in noise wise, or or just like a
lot of people too, right yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
So the sometimes I can be a little distracting,
right, but yeah, we, it'stremendous Just that they've
been able to give us that, allthat space to use.
It's not like our space Right,but been able to give us that,
all that space to use, it's notlike our space right, but the
fact that we can at least set upa full field and then store our
tools somewhere like that'shuge.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
You would just think that there would be more funding
for this kind of thing becauseof all the I mean, you're
learning a lot of valuableskills, yep, and it is it's.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
It's been hard for zealand, I think to to advocate
for more of that, because it's avery sports heavy district
which is fair, like, like a lotof a lot of there's a lot of
sports and there's a lot of kidsright um, but I I think that's
for any tall people right whoplays sports and that's for like
any district, right?
So I think the biggest thing,um, so I I'll say this first um

(34:51):
the coach for for Creekside, um,I probably shouldn't say his
name but uh, we had them all asa teacher in middle school.
Like he's he's a great guy andwe know him like personally
outside of the team.
Um he has been trying toadvocate for.
Like he's been trying to go tothe board to get some more money
, um, like the state to get moremoney for for first programs,
and the biggest argument againstit is there's not enough

(35:14):
success yet because they're oneof the most consistent, like
best teams in the state.
But there's not enough likesuccess in Zealand is is what
they say to to actually allowthat and and and that's it kind
of sucks, because I think thatthe future of kind of some of

(35:35):
the future of learning is headedtowards like robotics I've seen
it a lot Like it's becomingmore popular every year, so like
, and each school is likeimplementing something really
like similar to that.
Like Granville, like they justhad like a six, like four or
five $6 million buildinginstalled just for robotics,
million dollar buildinginstalled just for robotics and,
uh like, part of the reason whyit was so expensive is because

(35:56):
they want to have, like theywant to host events.
There is what I've heard.
so like that buildingaccommodates, like them being
able to to host like 40, 50, 60plus teams there that are all
using power at the same time,right, yeah like so, like that,
that's part of the reason whythat building is so stinking
expensive and plus, it's just aseparate building from just for
robotics, so like there'sprobably a bunch of tools in
there that they can use, and Iknow granville has, you know, a

(36:18):
ton of people, um, that are onlike different.
They have multiple roboticsteams for high school and in
middle school, I think.
Um, but yeah, I mean that'd beawesome to have that for zealand
and try to get like all theschools together and, and you
know, make like a small-ishbuilding or separate building
for a space for robotics orlearning.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, it just seems like that's how you get it to
get more successful.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, and I think I am almost positive that I hear
the dog.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
I know, I hope it's not going through the mics, but
you never know.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, maybe a little bit, If you guys can hear it
barking.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
I'm sorry.
They're probably like man hisvoice.
I hope it's not going to themics, but you never know.
Yeah, maybe a little bit If youguys can hear it barking.
I'm sorry, that's funny.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
They're probably like man his voice.
There's like some weird reverbto it, but I think that it will
happen over time.
It's just it's going to take alittle bit of time.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, it's just not there yet.
No, not yet.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
But I mean maybe, maybe somebody will finally be
like oh, that's, I shouldn't sayfinally.
Maybe somebody will decide toreally try to help us or
advocate for that on the board,or somebody who has, you know,
you need to walk into the schoolboard and slam your clipboard
down and say this is what weneed.
Yeah, yeah, it's I think thebiggest thing too, too.

(37:32):
A lot of schools, before theyeven consider doing something
like that is, is like they needto see numbers, like
participation.
So last year we had, like Ithink it was 63, 64 kids that
tried out and we only had likefour or five slots and because
we, we weren't able to split offinto two teams and each slot is
one kid.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, so we had.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
We had a couple um kids graduating and we had a
couple returners, right, yeah,and most of the time, like,
every kid still has to try outevery year, but, yep, most of
the time the same returners endup making the team again, right,
um, which is fair, but we stillgive everybody a chance, um,
and I mean this year we had itwas like 40, close to 50 kids.

(38:14):
So I mean, I, I would saythere's a lot of participation
there, right?
yeah people are at leastinterested in seeing what the
program is and and it's it'sreally hard to explain what it
is to parents that have no idea,because they're like I didn't
like we had a couple parentscome up to us last season after
like over and uh, like we'vegotten to know them throughout

(38:35):
the season at that point andwe've got to know their kids
Right, and uh, it's like one bigfamily at that point and
they're like, wow, like wedidn't, uh, we didn't realize
like how much, like how involvedit was.
Like we didn't realize how, um,how intense like the season can
be, like my kid was learningand putting in so many hours

(38:55):
every week doing this on top oflike trying to do the rest of
the school.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yeah Well, most people just see the end result.
They don't know how much timeand effort is actually put into
things.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, and that's where it's kind of going off
topic a little bit, like that'swhere the marketing.
Yeah, I'm just kidding, no, kindof going off topic a little bit
.
Like that's where the marketingyeah no, that's where the
marketing subgroup can be a lotof fun, because it's like maybe
maybe part of your goal for thatseason in that group is
figuring out how to like getyour team out there.
Like what is what you do?
Like, like, what do you guys do?

(39:26):
Um, and like not choosing not tostep in too much as as a mentor
unless you absolutely have to,is hard because you want to do
that stuff and there are somethings that you do do but you
let them, you know, take charge.
Like, if you're not letting thestudents take charge, and
there's really no point becausethey're not going to have fun,
they're not going to learn, andit's you're not going to learn
either, right, yeah, so italmost it hurts.

(39:54):
Like nobody wins, right, it'sjust mentor led, but you still
want to have that level ofcompetitiveness too, and that's
the hardest balance, like we've.
Again we had parents, um, thattheir, when their kids didn't
make it, they.
The biggest question was likeoh, why can't you guys have like
50?
Why can't you guys accept all50 kids, 60 kids?
it's like I wish we could, Ireally but we just can't, we
don't have the mentors, and wethink that that's a huge deal,

(40:16):
because if you have like four orfive kids that do everything,
like half the teams more thanhalf the teams not going to be
able to do anything and they'rejust going to not have fun, like
what learning is going to bedone?

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Right.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
And well, that's just how the world works, though
like not everybody's gonna beable to get in, and I don't know
why.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, I mean I do feel bad, like, yeah right, it's
sad, but it's at the same timeit's just not realistic to have
everybody do it.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
That was our this season, especially that was our
because we've only been chase,has only been head coach for two
years um I'll say that you canedit that out if you want.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well they don't know his last name, so nobody's gonna
going to know.
There's plenty of people namedChase.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I'll say where he lives in his social but yeah
yeah, he, this is the secondyear like as head coach and he's
had to learn so much on, like,how to communicate with parents,
one, and how to likecommunicate with his with, like,
our friend group, because, like, none of us wanted to be
teachers, right, like none of usare teaching for our jobs,

(41:15):
right, and um, I would say evenfor for the rest of the guys
like I, I think working at achurch it's it's different
because I, I, I work, I just seea lot of people and I, I just
get to do a lot of that stuff.
It's like part of they mightget to.
I'm not saying that, um, theydon't get to talk to a lot of
people, but it's a little bitdifferent because I think they

(41:36):
it's very easy for them to dotheir own thing, like they can
have meetings all one day andthen the next day they can just
be, he can just be sitting inhis, in his office, just, you
know, working on his own project, just tuned out to the rest of
the world.
So sometimes it's harder forthem, I think, to um to connect
or actually like work on some ofthose other skills.

(41:58):
It's like the best way to say itlike not in a mean way at all,
like I have my own things towork on, right.
Like I'm not an engineer.
So like all the ideas I have,when we're just talking about
specifically robot ideas, likewhen we're prototyping stuff
with the students, like I mighthave idea but I don't know how
to explain it, or like I don'tknow the math behind it.
I don't know how to do that.
And like if I'm not honest withthem, and like if I'm like, oh,

(42:21):
I can do this by myself.
Like I got it.
Like like I know everythingthat's that's going on, if I
don't listen to them, like theywent to school for that, right.
So you kind of all have to worktogether and like it helps that
we're friends, right, right,like throughout high school and
everything, so like we know eachother very personally on that
level and that's not the samefor a lot of other people I
don't think, and that's a hugeupside to.

(42:42):
I think our, our team, a lot ofit, is run differently.
A lot of the mentors may do alot of the stuff and fair, but
if I mean we care about more ofthe students, kind of leading

(43:03):
more of it, even though it mightbe harder to teach them down
the line, we might be way behindon the robot, but we can still
be really competitive.
We think it just may take a lotmore time because they're
trying to do it, we're trying toteach them.
We think it just may take a lotmore time because they're
trying to do it, we're trying toteach them.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
So you, you prioritize teaching the students
versus, rather thanprioritizing winning and this in
this instance.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yep, Yep.
And I'm not saying that we arenot like super competitive, like
right Right.
Like, I think not without, likebragging, I think, if we, I
think we have the skillscollectively to make a good
robot.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
You or your friends, yeah, something that competes.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
Well, right, definitely not the.
We're not saying we're the bestrobot, because some of the
stuff at the highest level iscrazy.
I'll explain that in a second.
It's different at the higherlevel too, in terms of
competitiveness.
But, yeah, I think we have theskills to have, um to like,

(43:56):
reach the students goals if thatmakes sense, like.
We always try to tell them.
Like you know, if you want todo something, don't try to limit
yourself on like what you'veseen other teams do, like just
because you've seen another teamdo something.
Not successful doesn't meanit's not about, or doesn't mean
it's impossible to do right,right, but you also have to be
like you know, teach them someof the real world.
Like, okay, realistic doesn'tnecessarily mean don't go with

(44:17):
an idea.
Realistic mayistic may mean howdo you spend your?
How are you going to spend yourtime?
What are your goals when you'retrying to prototype something
like?
Or when you, when you're havinga meeting, like are you just
like?
If you don't log some of thisinformation down, like, it may
seem boring, right?

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Like.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
I'm just going to sit here testing out a wheel, um,
acting upon like a game piece,if, if, like, if I'm trying to
pick what wheel we want, therecould be like 10 different
wheels that we want and all ourdifferent shapes and sizes and
stuff, and like what kind ofrubber are on the wheel I'm
being really specific here.
But, like, if they're notlogging all the information down
, like what they see the nextmeeting, they could waste like

(44:52):
30 minutes trying to do the samething they did the other
meeting.
So it's like stuff like that,right yeah trying to prioritize
their time and, and you knowknow, what are you capable of?
Right, like, how are you guyslike your middle schoolers?
Right so, like you probablyhave a lot more to learn than
what we do sometimes.
Right so, like you have to worktogether at that area too, like
, if you want to aim high,that's, that's awesome, go for
it.

(45:12):
But like, we'll try to help youreach your goal as best as we
can, but we're also not going tolet you go down a path that's
like hurtful, if we think it'sgoing to be like hurtful or like
not productive right then we'llsay something right, because I
think that's, I think that's.
Uh, there's like that's hard tooto balance right.
Like sometimes you want to letthem fail, but other times, like
you, you want to step in andactually prevent that because

(45:34):
you know it won't be likebeneficial.
You know that they'll be ableto understand it like why it
it's it's hurtful.
If that kind of makes sense.
Yeah, maybe, maybe I'm notexplaining it this way, I like,
but I, I really feel like it'sjust the balance a lot of the
times.
Um, that's really how you get,that's how that's how you learn
and that's how you get better.
Um, but yeah, I um at the.
I think I mentioned somethingabout like different competitive

(45:56):
levels at like yeah, there'slike a higher level yeah, so in
michigan, um, the program isfirst robotics, um, and they
have separate like um, likerobot robotics programs, ish, um
.
So like the high school that wedid, um, you build a bigger
robot and it competes on like abigger field, way bigger field,
um, and uh, the um.

(46:18):
So that's FRC, first roboticscompetition, and that's just
high school.
And in Michigan, um, andeverywhere else, um, but in
Michigan, um, they only allowthe middle school team to
compete with the FTC program,which is first tech challenge.
That's like supposed to bemiddle school level, you know.
Leads you into FRC.
It's a smaller robot, smallerfield, uh, like way smaller

(46:40):
field, um, but it's still supercompetitive.
Leads you into FRC.
It's a smaller robot, smallerfield, like way smaller field,
but it's still super competitive.
The unfortunate thing is everyother state in the world, or
every other state in the U S,and like every other country,
it's a lot of high schoolers tocompete.
So they're going, they weregoing up against like high
schoolers at Houston.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
So Michigan doesn't allow.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Nope, and I don't know what the decision process
was behind that like originally.
But they can't change thatright now.
There's not like a good way tochange that or limit it for all
the other, like states and incountries, because there's like
thousands and thousands of teamsout there for ftc now.
Um and uh, if, if they were toregulate like, oh, everyone has

(47:21):
to, you have to be middle schoolto compete, they're going to
lose more than half their teams.
So, like they, they don't wantto.
I know they're not going towant to do that, but then you
can't just say, oh yeah,michigan high schoolers can
compete in Michigan, because youknow, you have, you have, you
have already said that, like,high schoolers can only compete
for frc, so so there's notreally a good way to do it,
since they, since they made thatdecision, um, but that's,

(47:45):
that's the uh I want to saydownside, because there there
are some pros to for them tocompete at that level.
But uh, like they can't drive,like they, these mills can't
drive yet, like, like some ofthe teams we were, well, legally
yeah right um some of them someof them bike to were going
against, well, legally, yeahright, some of them bike to
school, right, so maybe I guessthey can sleep there, right.
But some of these high schoolteams at the top level, or a lot

(48:10):
of them, are right out ofsomebody's garage so they've
been competing through FRC.
They did Lego League, which islike first Lego League, which is
preschool first league, whichis, you know, um, like preschool
first, through like fifth grade.
Some of these top teams havebeen their kids on their team,
have been competing since thatlevel all the way up and through
like senior year, high schoolRight.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
So, like they're not affiliated necessarily with a
school all the time at this,these top teams, um, but they
don't have a ton of like, um,it's not like a consistent thing
forever.
So, like a lot of these topteams, they, they are super
successful and then they mayjust die out for a season, they

(48:51):
may just be done because theirkids graduate and then they move
on to college.
So, like, what we're trying todo for for the middle school
team I'm in in in Zealand, issomething that really hasn't
really been done before andthat's trying to make it
sustainable.
So, like, when we leave, like,cause we're not, I'm not, I
don't want to be doing thisforever.

(49:11):
I don't think, maybe, maybe,maybe I'll be doing as long as I
can.
But like, if, if we take a stepdown for a couple of years and
like somebody else, like we,somebody else steps up, then we
want it to still be a like, acontinual like.
Okay, you are going to get thiscertain amount of money from
these sponsors, as long as youkeep up with the sponsors, right
, yeah, like not a lot of teams.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Who would you want to replace you?
Would it be the student, theformer students, as the mentors?

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Sure, yeah, I mean.
We mean I went to Cityside formiddle school so I know that
place, I've been around it.
It feels weird going back nowstepping foot in that school
every time All my other friendswent to Creekside, so the other
middle school.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Is Cityside like Zealand's middle school Yep.
Is that one closer to the cityand Creekside, like Zealand's?

Speaker 1 (50:01):
middle school Yep.
Is that one closer to the cityand Creekside?

Speaker 2 (50:03):
is yeah, Creekside is actually like right downtown
Zealand, yeah, right, and thenCreekside is like.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Creekside is like less than three, four minutes
away.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Oh, I thought it was going to be like out in the
farmland.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
No, no, it's like right down the road, so it's
kind of funny.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
But yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Cityside used to be the high school, so that's where
both my parents went to highschool, or at least my mom went
there.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
My dad went to Holland, christian.
So you guys just have beenDutch as long as you've been
alive.
I know, can't you?

Speaker 1 (50:37):
tell dude Come on.
No, yeah, yeah, pretty much.
I'm like the most, one of themost dutch korean people you
ever meet in your life.
Noted, besides the height, Imean yeah, yeah, don't you got
lacking you guys got me on theheight, but I mean you're.
You're not even dutch, but Imean you're still tall.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah, I feel like all my, all my friends are I'm the
most non-dutch dutch lookingperson because I have the blonde
hair and blue eyes, but I'mthat is fair, I have almost no
dutch.
Yeah, yeah, that's funny.
So you do robotics and you're amentor?

Speaker 1 (51:17):
yep, I can talk about that I can talk your ear off
forever about that stuff.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Oh I know, but you also are doing the worship
directing, which is a coupleleadership positions.
Is there a future PastorBrandon coming?

Speaker 1 (51:31):
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
That means it's going to happen.
Every time you say you don'twant to do something or it's not
going to happen, that's the oneit is yeah, yeah, um, it's not
on the radar right now.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Like it's hard to say , like I don't know the future,
like I try really hard to totake some time and and and pray
about stuff.
Like that may sound a bit weirdto say, but like I don't know.
Sometimes I just like I have noidea, like I feel like if I'm
not not just as a Christian, butlike if I'm not constantly
trying to you know, talk, totalk to God about some of that

(52:09):
stuff, then like I'm doing it,I'm doing it by myself ew it's
really hard for me to take timeand like talk to God about it.
Cause sometimes I sometimes it's, I feel like I have to do it
with myself, or I feel like it'seasy, right, it's what's the
good word?
Like it feels like it's, it's,it's fine, right, it's fine if I
do it myself and like I thinksomebody told me, like I don't

(52:32):
remember who told me this.
It was pretty good advice.
It was like, whether or not,whether or not they meant it to
be advice or not, they're like,you're going to make a decision
at the end of the day, byyourself, regardless, even if
it's not something that you talkto God about, or even if it's
not something that God gives youfor a short answer on, you
still have to make decisionssometimes, right.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
He's still going to be there with you and that was
pretty helpful.
It was just good to keep inmind.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
That isn't.
I'm pretty helpful, it was justgood to keep in mind.
Um, that doesn't not trying tolike advocate for like doing it
by yourself, but right now Iknow what you're saying.
I, because we've had, we'veactually said this a couple
times on this podcast, but Ithink sometimes you do have
options, when so it's like youchoose something and it's like
you like you said, god's stillthere, unless it's something
that you obviously shouldn't bedoing, but that we all know that
yeah, yeah, I mean, it'ssomething that you obviously
shouldn't be doing, but that weall know that.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's even for that stuff, like
sometimes it's still like it's.
It's easy, really easy, to getcaught up in something and then,
like months go by like a yeargoes by and you're like oh like
and and maybe still like.
Even in those moments it's likeI mean so.
So maybe I'll get a littlepersonal here.
This is kind of neat.
My, my dad I didn't know thisabout him until he told me like

(53:43):
a couple a couple years ago, umhe like grew up in zealand,
holland, all his life and um, hewas really big into computers.
And he, he does, uh, he's aprogrammer.
Um, uh, now, so he, he startedgetting into it like right when
programming was starting tobecome big, like they just
started offering classes, likeback in his day.

(54:04):
I say that like he's like athousand years old.
Sorry, dad, but he told me thathe just kind of just up and
left, like when he graduatedhigh school.
He was just, he didn't want tohave anything to do with like
the church or like his family,and not that he didn't love his
family, right, like he justwanted to do his own thing and I
didn't know that about him.
And he, he moved to.

(54:26):
I think he moved to colorado,because that was like that was
the big where all theprogrammers were at the time.
Um and uh, his plan was to tryto go to school in colorado and
get a, get a job there and andand like as a programmer.
And uh, he found out veryquickly that that wasn't his
path, like all throughoutcollege.

(54:48):
So he went to, he went to GVSUfor for a couple of years, um
and went, um and took like GVSUwas here a thousand years ago.
Yeah, yeah, so he went, he wenthere for college.
Um, I should say, I mean, Ithink I am, except he went here
for college.
Um, he was, he was going to tryto move to Colorado to get a
job.
Sorry, yeah, um and uh, like,right at the end of like, right

(55:09):
before he, he, he left one ofhis.
He told me one of his professorsjust sat down and talked to
them and you're just like, like,what do you want to do with
your life?
And he never actually thoughtabout it, he just was like, I
know I like computers, but I'venever actually thought about
what I wanted to do specifically.
So he just decided that he wasgoing to do his own thing.

(55:30):
He said he was a Christian, buthe said he didn't actively try
to pray about some of that stuffand he just wasn't able to find
anything out there.
And then he had to come backhome and he pray about some of
that stuff and he just wasn'table to find anything out there.
And then he had to come backhome and, and you know, like, he
had great parents that stillloved him, Right, like, and
that's super important, but, um,like, he's one of the most like

(55:51):
.
I'm fortunate enough to say thatI like he's something that I,
someone that I look up to, um inthat sense.
But he like really tries tostress the importance of
spending intentional time out ofyour day doing that stuff.
You don't have to have aspecific goal in mind.

(56:14):
You don't have to feel likeyou're going to gain so much
wisdom or you're going to gainso much biblical knowledge all
the time.
Just read stuff or just pray.
You don't have to pray acertain way either.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be abig deal and I know very little
about any theology stuff andpart of my I know right.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
But you're.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Reformed.
I know right, but I felt likethat was a huge downside to me
personally when I was applyingto different churches, Not even
in that sense If I wanted tostep into worship leading or
just worship in general somebodywho leads a group of people in

(56:59):
right.
And in worship, like sometimes Ifelt underqualified to even
like do that and uh, um, I mean,I mean there's been a, there's
been a lot of things that havehelped me think about that stuff
and like to, to get me to apoint where I am like okay with
that, I like that's fine, likeI'm not gonna just say that's it
, like I'm not gonna.
You know, I'll always try to be, you know, gaining knowledge or

(57:20):
like wisdom.
Where I can't, people like thatare, you know, pastors or like,
or like spend their whole life,you know, devoted to this, like
teaching stuff, right, right,um, but like the the cool thing
is about like worship, leading,even, like with anything
involved with the church, likewhether it's volunteer, whether
you work there.
I think that, like, because, um, I'm trying to quote, like

(57:44):
trying to quote the book that Ithat I got this from a little
bit, um, I read a book calledthe worship pastor by by Zach
Hicks.
Uh, it was recommended to me byum uh, Jeff, um, at first, and
we kind of went through thisbook together, uh, while I was
interning there and he, he um,the guy who wrote the book has
like been around a bunch ofdifferent churches and like big

(58:05):
and small yeah and, uh, he hadlike the same question at the
end of the book and it was agreat way he wrapped it up.
He was like we're all brokenright, but we've all, like some
of us are called to try out this, like worship pastor thing or
like worship director thing, andI maybe that sounds, maybe it
sounds a little bit cheesy, butit's like that was a great way

(58:27):
of putting it because at the endof the day like I know it's you
just have to spend as much timeas you can like, even though
it's sometimes it's sometimesit's overwhelming.
Like part of the job is likegetting to experience some of
that stuff, like as a, as aworship somebody who's in
worship.
Like there's just a lot ofthings that I hear like

(58:48):
throughout throughout the week.
It's like people come in withsome people come in with like
you know, this is what's goingon in my life, whether or not
they like mean to share it withyou.
Um, like that's what you see ina, in a church setting.
Um, and it's really made methink of how different people
are coming in to to the churchlike every Sunday morning,
because I mean, a lot of themdon't have worship pastor jobs.

(59:12):
Some of them may just sit in anoffice all day or like deal
with people.
So it's like I forget sometimesthat that like people go through
that stuff If that makes sense.
It's like all my buddies likethey have very similar jobs but
like you know they're might nothave, they might not know what
to do in their free timesometimes.
Right.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Right.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
It's like, how can I try to minister, even though I'm
not um, like worshiping atrobotics, even like this sounds
cheesy, right, but like, how canI minister to the kids still
there?
Um, and to my friend group?
Um, like outside of outside ofthe church, like that's one area
I can do that in, or like, ifI'm volunteering in another
church, like I can do the samething, um, like even at home

(59:52):
right.
Um, it's, it's a constantchallenge and, uh, it's it's.
I enjoy it, but it's definitelyit can be hard.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
What can be hard?
Just keeping up.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Just keeping up with.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
With other people's lives.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
That and trying to be intentional, like as
intentional as I can withwhatever time I have, because
they're every day almost I wouldsay they're every day like
right before I go to bed.
This is like I don't want to doanything else.
I was gonna go to sleep.
Like I know I didn't, like Iknow I didn't spend any time

(01:00:35):
praying today.
I know I didn't do any of that,but like I don't really feel
like it and even if it's like 30seconds to say a prayer, like
30 seconds.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Yeah, it's long when you're tired and you're ready to
go to bed.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
And it's like sometimes I like I can, I'm just
sitting there doing absolutelynothing, right.
Yeah, I can, I can do that, Ican physically do that and I
still can.
I can do that, I can physicallydo that, and I still decide not
to do that sometimes.
And it's like you know, striveto get better, right, and I just
hope to be able to to haveJesus on my mind consistently

(01:01:15):
that much.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Like that's, that is a real goal that I have, um,
because I feel like it's there'severy single time where, like
it's related to the, the job,like where I've felt challenged,
like every single time um, I'mable to like just keep him, like
you know, above all the otherlike stresses like you know it
does help, it does um, and evenif, even if he doesn't give you

(01:01:40):
an answer directly, like he'sstill there, right, right, and
like sometimes he um shows you,like down the line too, like my,
my dad said that he's neverlike.
You know some people.
You hear some people say likeoh, god spoke to me.
God dad said this to me.
Like I heard a voice, cool,like that's awesome.
But like my dad, dad and I, likewe've never heard a voice,

(01:02:01):
right I have any there yeah, andmy dad said, like one time he,
um, there was like a in ininternal, like job posting at
his work.
Now, um and uh, this was acouple years ago and he was
thinking about applying for it.
So he, uh, he prayed and uh, he, you know, is this?
I think he said, like, is thislike the right thing for me to

(01:02:23):
do?
Like I'm going to have to spendsome more time away from home
to like get trained for this?
Like, just give me a sign.
And he was expecting likesomething audible.
Like you know, maybe he wasn'texpecting it, but, like you know
, he, it would be nice, right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
And didn't hear anything, anything like.
He just kept praying and aftera week he decided to apply for
it and they actually uh, theyactually terminated the position
.
So, like they, they just made itsomething else and or they
weren't that position wasn'tgonna be a thing, pretty much
yeah and so he was like, okay, Imean, that would have been,
that would have been fun to do,uh, because it was more of it

(01:02:59):
was just different than what hewas doing.
Yeah, and um, um, on the wayhome, uh, he said that.
Uh, he passed like six or sevenbillboards and they all had the
word no on them and like in theback of his mind he's like,
okay, I can think like, yeah,that's just coincidence, right,

(01:03:21):
coincidence right.
But like maybe in some wackyway, like that was his way of
telling no, right, I, I enjoyhearing like some stuff like
that from him, because it's likeI don't know how god works,
because I'm not god it's.
I like to think that, oh, likeI can see god working through
that in that way.
Who am I to even like thinkthat, right, like he works in
ways that I can't even imagine?
Right, and it's the same.
This is maybe, maybe this isnot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
I can't even imagine right, and that's the same this
is maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Maybe this is not a good way to say it like it's the
same for for like the devilright.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Like he works in ways that I can't like, right yeah,
it's both ways like well it,because it does say that he
comes with disguises, an angelof light.
So it is, they can right.
I don't want to say it thewrong thing either, but they can
work similarly yeah, yeah,words are fun, right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
It's like like in your head.
You can, you like, understandwhat you're in your head, but
you like can't put it to words.
It's like what?

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
that doesn't even make sense yeah, well, because I
don't want to say that god andthe devil are on the same level
yeah, which is not what I'msaying, but yep yep, the ways
that they work it sometimes canboth be confusing, yeah I enjoy
hearing stuff like that from him.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
He's always like he's not like telling me, like
challenging me necessarily.
He just like tells me thatstuff, like when we're just
talking randomly and like I takethat, that, like that impacts
me a lot, it's like it juststicks with me.
You know, it's uh, like he saidone time he was just reading
the bible and and and um, he Iwas shoot.

(01:04:48):
It was um, oh yeah, it was, itwas moses, like part of the red
sea right, and he just rereadthat, just because, and um, he
asked me to think about.
He's like just out of the blue,just random conversation.
He's like you know you'reinvolved with, like you, you
listen a lot of worship songsand like you're about he's like
just out of the blue, justrandom conversation.
He's like you know you'reinvolved with, like you, you
listen to a lot of worship songsand like you're very musical.
He's like, do you ever reallybelieve?

(01:05:09):
Like when, if there's lyrics ina song that say like um, like
it refers to, like the, theearth is like gods Right, so,
gods right, so, so the water islike living, like the air is is
like breathing right, like he'slike, what do you think about
that kind of stuff and I waslike like I didn't really put
much thought into honestly andhe's like, well, he's like the

(01:05:29):
reason why I asked is I'm justlike just was reading, like
moses, part of the red sea, andhe's like like it talks about,
like in the bible, like the, orwhen david was like singing and
praising God, like some of hislyrics and they were like the
water even like fears him, likewhen Jesus told the water to be
still he's like the water, likelisten to him, so like can you
take that as like the waterlistens, like it's alive, right?

(01:05:52):
So he is just a random questionthat he had for me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
And what was your answer?

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
water alive I said, I said sure, I said sure it's
water could be alive.
Maybe I can't understand it,but sure well, it's like does it
?

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
no, it doesn't breathe.
I don't think it breathes I wasgonna say, technically, you
could make an argument that itdoes eat, because it does, you
know, like a bunch of like stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
People can smile it up in water all the time yeah,
oh, you're going down that routeyeah, well, yeah, yeah, I am me
trying to get scientific eventhough I know nothing really.
Caleb's like oh yeah, well,people drown, so like water eats
people well, I said a casecould be made.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
That's funny, but it doesn't breathe.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
So that's funny though well, great, we were due
for an awkward silence yeah,yeah, we just ponder what we
talked about no dog barking, sono dog barking, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
So that was a long, long answer to you're probably
not going to be a pastor anytimesoon absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
I ramble so many times, just get off topic.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
But that's what makes you Brandon right, it's like
dude.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
just answer the stinking question yes or no Like
.
Do you think you're going to bepastor?
Not right now.
No, not at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Well, the long answer is make for good.
Uh, well, the long answers makefor good.
Podcasting it gets into thein-depth questions.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
That's what's so it's always funny, you look back and
you're like, well, this wasactually the question I asked
you and we ended on does Bigfootexist?

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
That is a good question.
Do you think Bigfoot exists?

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
I think that it's something demonic if it does
exist, Maybe yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Because that's the whole argument of aliens too.
I've heard that.
I think, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
Because who is it?
Is it Ezekiel who sees the bigwheel with all the eyes in the
sky, or whatever?
I can't remember if that'swhatever angel it was supposed
to be yeah, and people haveequated that to I just picked my
nose on camera or scratched mynose, oops yeah, you're gonna

(01:08:12):
edit that in.
You're just yeah, like peoplehave equated the, the angel with
all the eyes, like the wheel,as like a ufo oh that's fair so
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
There's been arguments made that, uh, aliens
and stuff is like the spiritualmaking itself being able to be
seen yeah, I mean, I thinknowadays like people have a
harder time, I would say, yeah,I, especially with like all the
technology going around likeit's, I think it's easier to

(01:08:47):
pretend that that stuff doesn'texist, like the spiritual side
of things isn't real yeah youwant to be able to physically
see this stuff, but like kind ofgoes back to like I've never
heard a voice of god or like thevoice of god, like speaking to
me, right right, it doesn't meanhe's not real right, but like I
used to think that that's theonly way I can know for sure is
if he actually talks to me andsays something to me and he's

(01:09:09):
like nope, like I'm gonna makedecision right, but but he might
not show me that's those thingsuntil like later, like down the
line yeahum, yeah, maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
I mean, maybe bigfoot is also just some random
creature out there that onlylives in like a remote area
where all these rumors stem fromyeah, that's like we've never
found actually some like somerandom dude, just super tall
genetic, some weird genetics islike all hair, you know it'd be

(01:09:40):
funny if all these years there'slike a family that just ran
around in those costumes, justnever got caught.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
You imagine if you've stumbled across a cabin in like
middle of alaska, like whereverthe story is done from the
middle of alaska, and you walkin and it's like deserted, but
you see like furry, like bigfootcostumes on the wall, like I
don't know what.
I would think of that.
This is like what the heck Imean each one has like a year,

(01:10:06):
decade.
Yeah, when it was like, likemade number one on and like,
like news lines like 2004.
That's funny all right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Well, brand Brandon, thanks for coming on absolutely
it was great to hear all of youradventures adventures and uh,
all the things that you're doing.
So I'm yet a yet another personliving their life yet another
person living their life tryingto do God's work well, sounds
like you are doing God's work,so I appreciate it.
Thanks again and everybodylistening.

(01:10:40):
Have a blessed week.
And if the dog,